Closing the Avalon accounts of two long standing members

[ThePythonicCow]

.
As explained below, the moderation team has unanimously decided to close the accounts of two long-standing Avalon members: Christine and Karelia.

We have deliberated on this for much of the last year, with our hearts as well as our heads. It has never been, nor is it now our desire to exhibit any ill-will. However, we can not stand by and consent with our silence. We desire neither to exacerbate the situation nor to exonerate misdeeds. We have taken a year to sort out our thoughts and feelings and create spaces for reflection and understanding.

During this time, an outpouring of Avalon Members and supporters shared with us privately their growing concerns regarding Christine and Karelia. In various off-forum dialogs, Christine and Karelia attempted to sow seeds of distrust against Avalon's founder Bill Ryan, the moderation team, and the general membership at large.

It has always been our hope that after a time, healing and forgiveness would take place, and emotions would calm down enough to move forward to a place of understanding and reason. It has also been our profound hope that Christine would make right her deliberate misdeeds, which include the embezzlement of Avalon Members Donations, and the outright theft of Bill's gold (the remnants of his inheritance). Unfortunately, none of these things have happened, and we are left with no choice but to take action.

It is also absolutely crucial at this time that we address the delicate subject of the health and safety of Milabs, abductees, ritualistic abuse victims, targeted individuals, and other such systematically abused victims.

The Avalon Community WILL NOT be used as a place where such systematically abused victims are "harvested", or otherwise privately cajoled into experimentation with non-professional counseling or unproven healing modalities, or earmarked as targets to further exploit with private agendas great or small. The moderation team feels it is important to add that Project Avalon does not endorse unprofessional or inexperienced psychological counseling of such victims. We encourage members to report any conduct they feel is to the contrary.

Good counselors save lives. Christine and Karelia appear to be talented, spirited individuals - however they are not trained counselors, nor are they qualified to declare themselves "healers" of what are some of the most psychologically complex and challenging abuse victims. These victims need (and deserve) highly-trained trauma/abuse-victim support. It is our hope that Christine and Karelia will take this into consideration as they tread forward on their path. It will not continue at Avalon!

There are many experienced, professionals available who have specific training in this field, and have been working with victims of such systemic abuse for 25+ years. We highly suggest that members take this into consideration when researching potential help. It is our hope that members will use discernment when joining in focus groups and if engaging, engage with caution when experimenting with various healing modalities.

Project Avalon supports dialog between people with many unusual experiences. In fact, we encourage dialog, and we embrace the love, support, and release that such support can provide. In this sense, Project Avalon is a support group, however, we encourage people to be responsible and discerning. We cannot support self-appointed healers - even in cases where the intention is honorable.

We learned much from Christine and Karelia in prior years, and we value the important contributions that they have given Avalon - including many valuable hours on the moderation team, for which we are extremely grateful. However, with the unfortunate changes in this last year, mutual trust and respect have been destroyed. It is time for us to move forward with heavy, but considerate, hearts.

Sincerely, The Project Avalon Moderation Team

Note: This action was made solely by the moderation team. Due to the personal connection, Bill Ryan neither initiated this moderator action, nor influenced our decision. We would also like to add that the moderation team felt it was important to mention the theft of Bill's inheritance. When we showed Bill what we wrote, he did ask us not to mention the theft of his personal property, in this notice of action. We overrode his wish. Though unrelated to this action, we felt that it critically underscored the level and degree of the deception and exposed her true character.

[Althena]

Mmmm...didn't know them I'm still a newbie.

But, yikes..
Gramps used to tell me to walk quietly because"The road is full of gamblers"

Wise old bean...

[Bubu]

Isnt it nice to hear them just one last time before they are finally sent off.

[gripreaper]

When we showed Bill what we wrote, he did ask us not to mention the theft of his personal property, in this notice of action. We overrode his wish. Though unrelated to this action, we felt that it critically underscored the level and degree of the deception and exposed her true character.

I find this so unequivocally hard to swallow, that Christine would steal and that "deception" would be used in the same sentence as her name as being a part of her "true" character. I don't know how to process this.

[mosquito]

Thank you for your customary openness and frankness Paul. I can only say I'm Saddened and shocked, and I hope that healing comes to all those concerned.

[Bob]

Paul, I thank you for posting this.

[Mu2143]

My higher self pointed me the the word "embezzlement" its interesting if you read it, that many people
are doing this without knowing they are(Awareness). However this
is also the knowledge of Good and Evil and not the tree of life that is why people keep fighting each other of things that does not really matter.

Jesus Was against the Law he knew this will kill you and was a teacher of
how to be a care taker (Righteousness) to take care of others that are in need of basic things anything other then that
will get your self in trouble spiritually.

This way of living is NO NO if you want get true this alive.

Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

[Shannon]

Very sad and disheartening...tis life:(

Not too long ago another forum close to my heart was completely and totally ruined due to theft of members donations and outright scamming.

You guys have no idea how much it helps to have everyone(mods and administration) looking out for us (members).

Thank you, Paul ....

[Delight]

I did not even know that Christine and Bill were in a relationship. It sounds like a really terrible series of relationship issues. I find it amazing that a person would be so despertae as to steal. The he said she said is all we can know about it. I feel mystified about it all and can only imagine she felt that she had right to the property. It makes more sense that in this personal issue, there is an energetic component. We are made an audience. The bleed over of this personal and sounds terrible situation is now projected in the cybercommunity across forums.

Well,here is my take....the break down that was between Bill and Christine and now placed in the "forum" is a part of people losing their centers in this common error of an era. I think that the fact the mods have had to deal with this issue feels like this is an example of how our emotions/energy are captured by a system.

IMO there is something for Bill to grok about the hook he has for getting robbed. I am not feeling robbed myself so I feel neutral about Christine. If I were to take Bill's "side" or anything about it feels like an energy drain.

Also, I am not feeling confident about all this back story leading to the thread declaration. Concerning the "collective", there was a really kind of secretive or less than transparent divulging of the coupleness. The issue is not clear because it started out a bit murky.

But sure, remove the membership. Please forgive me for the need to comment...it cleared up my thinking....I sense that misfortune seems to be a common element wherever misfortune is expected.

I have a radical perspective that WHATEVER we expect is what will happen in its symbolic nature as our creation. To me spirituality is technology of manifesting in this so dense realm. Therefore, I think that collectively we are given memes to create.

The memes are running rampant in the forums. One is invited to take one or another on. This is showing up because we are manifesting our expected reality and seeing how we do this now. I think we can choose to have the space of variations that is different from our habitual patterns.

"Thoughts are things> Let us create the ones we choose". We have the right and responsibility to this way we are as humans creative. That is a pronoiac stance IMO that places the power with us. Our choice is what? And then So What? Choose again...... It will be what you believe is probable.



I see spirituality as about what we are REALLY, call it consciousness. Our consciousness is the creator but the conscious mind we use chooses to focus on the vision and the heart has love for it. Love not as "liking" but passion for some idea.


LOVE is the passion power of the Universe. Then in our experience we light up visions with its power. This is way beyond emotion, moving into the beingness signature we have and essential being energy we project. THAT is our state which we make symbolic as action and attraction.

There is an energy of desperation that is clogging of freedom of just being alive. I think it really could drive people nuts.

Bill had a stash of gold. The reasons for having that are linked IMO with attracting a "source" to take it away. He may have hired Christine energetically. I want to fire paranoia personally so maybe I need not hire a negative experience?

[Mu2143]

Very sad and disheartening...tis life:(

Not too long ago another forum close to my heart was completely and totally ruined due to theft of members donations and outright scamming.

You guys have no idea how much it helps to have everyone(mods and administration) looking out for us (members).

Thank you, Paul ....

http://f.tqn.com/y/christianity/1/W/g/V/verseday02-pixabay-haiti-79641.jpg


Luke 9:24–25

For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it.
For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses or forfeits himself
http://christianity.about.com/od/verseoftheday/qt/verseday2.htm

In another words when you lose all of your stuff items
etc gold, you have gained everything in heaven (I AM) your soul.
Remember this, we are in a reality computer game show called earth
when you quit it, you know it is not real.
When you are here it feel like it, how hard do you think
it is to let go.
Its programmed in to our physical bodies to behave like the game
not live and following the spirit your battle is with your old self.

[araucaria]

When we showed Bill what we wrote, he did ask us not to mention the theft of his personal property, in this notice of action. We overrode his wish. Though unrelated to this action, we felt that it critically underscored the level and degree of the deception and exposed her true character.

I find this so unequivocally hard to swallow, that Christine would steal and that "deception" would be used in the same sentence as her name as being a part of her "true" character. I don't know how to process this.

Whatever the character involved, something has been done that was out of character: was the goodness planned as part of the overall deception, or was the deception the outcome of interference at some stage? If you accept the former hypothesis, that would mean that Bill was most comprehensively deceived for a considerable period of time in a manner far beyond anything that the rest of us were, by a latterday Mata Hari. I agree this is hard to swallow. The alternative explanation – some sort of psychic attack – makes much more sense. We have entire threads on the subject.

[RunningDeer]

.
As explained below, the moderation team has unanimously decided to close the accounts of two long-standing Avalon members: Christine and Karelia.

We have deliberated on this for much of the last year, with our hearts as well as our heads. It has never been, nor is it now our desire to exhibit any ill-will. However, we can not stand by and consent with our silence. We desire neither to exacerbate the situation nor to exonerate misdeeds. We have taken a year to sort out our thoughts and feelings and create spaces for reflection and understanding.

No doubt this was not an easy post to write.

With love and respect,
Paula ♡

[Mike]

When we showed Bill what we wrote, he did ask us not to mention the theft of his personal property, in this notice of action. We overrode his wish. Though unrelated to this action, we felt that it critically underscored the level and degree of the deception and exposed her true character.

I find this so unequivocally hard to swallow, that Christine would steal and that "deception" would be used in the same sentence as her name as being a part of her "true" character. I don't know how to process this.



I found it difficult to process at first too. I can't even begin to imagine how Bill processed it.

Ive had a couple women leave me before, pretty much unannounced. It was emotionally crippling enough just having the relationships end that way...and I wasnt even married. I always felt pretty bitter about it, but having read all this stuff, I can't help but feel fortunate now that they didnt rob me blind on the way out.

I'm trying to imagine the mentality of such a person, but I can't get very far. I'm not trying to sound pious, but my mind just doesnt work that way. I mean, as if stealing $60,000 wasnt enough, she had to swipe the avalon donations to boot??? Whew. Thats just some despicable, bottom of the gutter type sh!t.

I'd imagine stealing 60 grand from Bill would get most of us kicked off the forum..so I can only assume this grace period was allowed in the hope that Christine might attempt to explain her actions publicly. I don't know about you guys, but if I were her and I were innocent of these accusations, id be screaming it from the bloody roof tops. Her silence here is deafening.

Its absolutely sickening that this happened to you Bill. it all seems like one of those "48 hours" episodes. but it really must be said that youve handled it all with a unique grace and aplomb.

[Ewan]

karelia has made 2 posts in the entirity of this year and as I am not privvy to various off-forum dialogues I can have no undestanding as to why this decision was made. Considering her (karelia) last post was to let the forum know about the recent passing of an old member known to many this current action seem a little mistimed.

The Christine situation I was aware of as Bill describes much of the story himself somewhere.

I must read too much, I only know of karelia from reading a 4 yr old thread. :)

[betoobig]

MY dear Bill, you know when universe takes something from you is becouse universe is going to give you something even better. I trust we all can help you to fill up the hole, spiritualy and economicaly talking. MY heart and soul is with you more than ever.
Much Love
Juan

[ulli]

I can see that this would be a difficult situation to reconcile, for some of our regular members here.
Bill and his team of moderators have one agenda, namely to keep the forum community alive and flourishing,
while others feel a pull away from Bill and the forum, to the point of behaving treacherously towards them,
and can no longer see what Avalon is essentially about.

They can no longer see that what is being done here is something unique, something very complex and which will ultimately lead them to greater freedom.

Their commitment is either totally to "community" as they join forums like TOT,
where they experience a fake sens of unity, while sharing their negative perceptions of Avalon's perceived shortcomings,
or they go deeper into "one on one" experiences, exploring their shamanic powers, and the hidden dark crevasses of the individual human psyche, which may give them temporarily blissful feelings, but in the long run only increase their confusion, and bind them in codependent relationships from which they can't disconnect.
Both paths mean that they will end up losing their sovereignty.


Avalon is unique as it will fall neither into the trap of demonizing and backbiting,
nor encourage occultism with all its murky power plays and master-student type of relationships.

It is actually a very high balancing act, where individual sovereignty is respected while allowing
individuals the experience of being part of a virtual community- of becoming part of a greater whole.

For such an act to keep balance rules are needed,
and the only time that someone comes into conflict with the forum is when they stray too far into one of the two above
extremes.

It saddens me when this happens, as I'm sure the mods experience this sadness, too.
Which is each time they have to make an assessment.
Each time the forum starts to wobble, due to certain members rocking the forum boat.

[Cardillac]

what baffles me completely is how someone, unless they had insider connections, was able to steal Bill Ryans's gold; please inform!- I'm clueless...

Larry

[Curt]

God damn...

Bill, I'm very sorry you've had to go through this. And I'm sorry for Christine, too. Because, whatever else she's done, in her time here on Avalon she made a positive impact.

She communicated so clearly and fluently and from the heart that I was often, frankly, amazed. She understood personalities quickly and had tremendous insight into people and into the dynamics at play in our community- which are often complex and don't yield themselves easily.

In this man's humble opinion, she's a woman with some serious firepower- some real 'gifts', not just talents. She was an asset to Avalon, and I always got the sense she and Bill made a very fine, balanced team.

So, I'm very sorry that things have gone down the way they have. But what’s done is done.

Without an ounce of judgement, I wish her well and hope she finds her way through this.

[greybeard]

Into every ones life a drop of rain must fall.
Sometimes its a deluge.

Chris

[TrumanCash]

When I read the beginning post of this thread I was shocked and many questions came to mind and some red flags popped up.

First of all, Christine did not seem to me to be the thieving embezzler criminal type. I also noticed that the post contained generalized, inflammatory rhetoric tending to vilify both Christine and Karelia. So naturally I wanted to know more specifics about what (alleged) harm they have done.

If I were accused of a crime on the internet I would certainly want the opportunity to respond to such a thread to give my side of the story. As we all know when something goes on the internet it stays there until the internet archives no longer exist. How many years would that be?

Also, why would it be necessary to announce the closing of their accounts and expose alleged crimes now when they both voluntarily left the forum several months ago? Have they been duly informed of accusations that have been made about them?

How can Christine respond to these criminal allegations on this thread if she can no longer post on the forum?

These are obviously serious criminal allegations. Were criminal charges filed? If so, where were they filed and can we see a copy of the criminal complaint? If criminal charges were not filed, why not?

What is the actual intended purpose of this thread? Is it ethical to vilify and accuse someone while denying them the opportunity to give their side of the story?

I personally met both Bill and Christine a few years ago and they were living together then. I don't know if they were married or not at that time. That is when they interviewed me and they recorded the interview. I continued communication with them through the following years and was saddened when they split up.

It is often upsetting when couples separate and the he said/she said spreads like wildfire to their friends who, in turn, take sides (or not). Christine did communicate to me that she was very upset. However, she did not vilify anyone. She also indicated the relationship between her and Bill was that of marriage. She did not indicate whether it was a common law marriage, statutory marriage or just a verbal agreement. So I do not know what the actual situation was.

But nothing is black or white. Whether married or not, oftentimes couples who spend a great deal of time living together, sharing income, expenses, purposes, activities, love, bodily fluids, etc, the relationship can enter a gray area.

To clarify my meaning here's a real life example of which I have firsthand knowledge:

A man and woman lived together in a state that recognized common law marriages and their relationship met the requirements of a common law marriage which requires no license, wedding, etc. They later moved to a state that did not recognize common law marriages. They combined their incomes, the man gave her half the business he had started years before, they shared expenses, developed land, etc.

The woman suddenly ended the relationship so the man left with as many possessions as his vehicle could hold. When he returned for the rest of his possessions, the gate was locked and the woman denied him his possessions including gold and silver coins that he acquired before they met. Furthermore, she threatened to go to the sheriff to press charges of stealing by the husband (even though it was the wife that stole the husband's possessions.)

The man proactively went to the sheriff to give his side of the story. He explained that they had a common law marriage in the other state. The sheriff said that he would not accept the filing of any criminal charges from the wife because they were living as man and wife. That is, a wife cannot steal from her husband and vice versa.

These thoughts came to mind when I read Paul's accusations. Nothing is black and white. I don't know what the truth is but I'd sure like to hear Christine's and Karelia's side of the story.

This is, of course, Bill Ryan's private forum and he and his moderators have the right to kick off anyone they want to for whatever reason. I'll probably be the next one because I am a perennial truth seeker, truth teller and I routinely question authority. But I am curious--What forum rules did they violate?

I am not taking sides in this--I just want to discover more of the truth. Is this just a lover's quarrel that has spread to friends? How many times have we seen that phenomenon when couples break up? Why waste peoples' time? At this juncture I do not see that this thread is helpful in any way in the form of spiritual healing. It seems more like opening up an old wound and airing Avalon's dirty laundry for all the world to see. Frankly, it's starting to look like a soap opera and IMO it would be better to delete the thread entirely so people can put their attention on more important and pressing matters.

But even criminals should get their day in court.

TLC

[regnak]

what I find strange is that Paul not Bill Ryan kicks them out if Avalon was my form I would make the call especially as she is Bill Ryan ex


nor are they qualified to declare themselves "healers" Did they not run a private healing group on Avalon which was a closed group


It has also been our profound hope that Christine would make right her deliberate misdeeds, which include the embezzlement of Avalon Members Donations, and the outright theft of Bill's gold (the remnants of his inheritance).

If great misdeeds were done why were not the police called strange case

[Camilo]

As hard as it is, the truth needs to come out so we know where do we stand. It's sad and hard to process. Thanks Paul for posting it. My hearth goes out to you Bill.

[Finefeather]

All I would like to know is:
Why is this a thread in the public domain?
Are the Avalon moderators a court of law that can find a person guilty of theft and then subject them to a public sentence?
Why is Christine's side not been made available... in her own words?
Have each of the moderators actually had a personal session with Christine or is this just an acceptance of some written down information or other communication?

Whilst I know nothing about the truth of the matter I find this thread in bad taste and lacking understanding of things that get spoken about on this very forum... like karma... sowing and reaping... love and understanding of peoples faults.

This also reminds me so much of the very thing that happens in the dark world where you can be removed if you do not side by the self declared, all knowing leader... and please him/her.

There is an old esoteric truth which says that everything that happens to someone... as an individual... or as a group... is a result of that person's or that group's own doing... however... it takes a lot for people to see this when most are unable to see their long series of lives over many incarnations... and what each of us might be reaping bad karma for in a current life.

So just in conclusion I was hoping that at very least this thread could be private to members only, because we all do not really even know if Christine is guilty or not!

Ray

In fact what has been done now is that the moderators have just turned Christine into a criminal... wow such power!

And because Bill Ryan owns this forum... he is the one with the final words... not so wise after all?

[Gardener]

O! I wouldn't have put this in 'general discussion' forum, seriously, what does it achieve, Paul? Something awful happened in Bill and Christine's relationship, very painful. Is it an act of compassion and wisdom to publicly do this.

Whilst I am struggling as Grip is to process this, I am reminded of a pattern which seems to keep recurring.

very sorry to both of you.

[Bill Ryan]

.
Hello, Everyone —

Maybe I can answer one or two of the questions here myself. All the questions are understandable, and of course they're fully expected and welcome.


what I find strange is that Paul not Bill Ryan kicks them out if Avalon was my forum I would make the call especially as she is Bill Ryan’s ex



It was for exactly for that above reason that I stepped back to take no part in the decision — or even be part of any decision to begin discussing any possible actions to take.

It was the entirely the unanimous decision of the other moderators, with zero input from myself about any aspect of this. That's exactly how it should properly have been.

That decision having been taken, though, I have to say the mods have handled this impeccably. No-one else on any forum would ever have taken the tremendous care they did to check and double-check that every word was appropriate and rightly composed. There were maybe 20 (or 30!) drafts and re-drafts of the announcement, all made very patiently over a 6 week period, the final one of which was e-mailed to others outside of the forum for their input and agreement.

Every factual statement made was true, correct and accurate. There's extensive documentation that would stand up in any court... of all kinds of things: it was all a compound problem that extended, and magnified itself, over a period of almost a year. The entire thing, one could say, was a diabolical mess. And I say that advisedly.


If great misdeeds were done why were not the police called

No legal actions would be simple (as Christine well knows), as she’s no longer in Ecuador. Basically, she left the country with what she took, the day after she 'confessed' (her exact words) to me personally. She was careful not to tell me she was leaving the country the next day, or I’d have had her stopped at the airport by the police.

She knew that full well, which is why I only discovered she'd left the country three months later. (As an aside, she also left the country with $2,000 worth — replacement value — of my camera and audio equipment, though that was later returned to me intact.)

Although I asked her extremely pleasantly, via my lawyer (a very decent and intelligent women we both knew), for a formal notarized statement of what had happened, for the record, she declined to provide that and is now no longer responding to my lawyer's communications.

There's much, much, much more to all this, as some readers know. Some of it must remain confidential because others outside the forum are directly or indirectly affected or involved — but that's also why Paul posted the statement publicly.

All in all, it's really quite a serious business, and has been taken very seriously by the team here. We should be pretty proud of them... really. I've never known a team who are more committed to everything being done really, really well, and with full integrity, accuracy, and propriety.

If anyone reading this finds themselves unable to agree, they may be being inadvertently swayed by information from other sources that's untrue or misleading — either accidentally or otherwise.

Do be careful about what you hear about all this, and who/where it’s coming from. Everything Paul stated earlier, and which I’m adding to here, is correct. I’d be pretty dumb to state publicly on record anything that could be shown to be untrue. :)


Did they not run a private healing group on Avalon which was a closed groupYes... it was actually an ongoing Skype group chat that had been running since August 2014. Kristin (the moderator) and I were both expelled from that, without any warning or explanation, on 17 December (2014). Kristin was at that time Christine’s closest friend, and I think it’s all right for me to say here on her behalf that she was really very shocked.

That was one of the earlier signs (but not the earliest) of marked changes that were taking place (or which had already taken place) — showing something that was badly wrong. That healers group was closed a few weeks later, and soon after was rebooted with largely new members, Christine and Claudia both excluded at the time by the others participating.

[Heartsong]

Sadness and disappointment all around. Mistakes and missteps, illusions and delusions, none of us are exempt. Some of us can forgive. Some of us can forget. All of us are subject to this thing called life.

[Limor Wolf]

Personal relationships of high-profile people with tremendous capabilities and ability to support other people via their beingness and aqcuired experience will always be attacked, in many various (unfortunately creative) ways. This is currently the story of our planet and many times the story of those who are doing heads on the good deed. It does not necessarily need to be this way. Observence of repeated dyanmics and self check can reveal a pattern that others will be more than willing to hook on, even if done with the best of intentions. It's not so easy living here, for many, and for those who keep the spark alive, each doing what they think is best. May love and compassion lead the way

Stories often have more than two sides, sometimes even three and four. Equal, in a way to the amount of participants and various dimensions invloved in our planet's life. Such is the human story from the collective to the personal, it also has dimensions of it's own, some can be partially or none seen

Sending love and healing for all who are involved who may feel hurt ~

Blessings

Limor

[RunningDeer]

Personal relationships of high-profile people with tremendous capabilities and ability to support other people via their beingness and aqcuired experience will always be attacked, in many various (unfortunately creative) ways. This is currently the story of our planet and many times the story of those who are doing heads on the good deed. It does not necessarily need to be this way. Observence of repeated dyanmics and self check can reveal a pattern that others will be more than willing to hook on, even if done with the best of intentions. It's not so easy living here, for many, and for those who keep the spark alive, each doing what they think is best. May love and compassion lead the way

Stories often have more than two sides, sometimes even three and four. Equal, in a way to the amount of participants and various dimensions invloved in our planet's life. Such is the human story from the collective to the personal, it also has dimensions of it's own, partially or none seen

Sending love and healing for all who are involved who may feel hurt ~

Blessings

Limor

:bump:

Yes and brilliantly expressed! Thank you, thank you, Limor! for saying what I was thinking, feeling, and not wanting to say (beyond hints of).

It’s awkward to be in it and be out of it when you understand that it’s a dimensional happening with more than just the two physical beings.

Blessings to you, too,http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/Recovered/smileys-hugs-765537_zpso1eaenyy.gif
Paula ♡

[onawah]

I find myself wondering if there were behind the scenes influences on Christine and Karelia--not from Avalon, but from entities that Avalon has been dealing with of a dangerous bent.
So many of the whistleblowers that have been interviewed and otherwise interfaced with by Avalon in our attempts to discover the facts and the truth have turned out to be controlled by those whose intent is chaos and destruction.
It's not that unusual for well-meaning people to be fooled and led to actions that they will later sorely regret, and that chain of negative influence can be very far-reaching.
Not that we all shouldn't be held accountable, or that wrongs done should not be righted, but in discovering the causes, sometimes we need to look much deeper than surface appearances.

[Marikins]

I don't know the parties who have been banned. I accept that both what Paul and Bill say is true. The abrupt change in behavior is exactly what we should expect from someone being remote influenced or psychically attacked. We of all people should know this.

[norman]

A deviation from established honor and trust can be a deliberate act within a shared reality perspective, or it can be a product of a shift of reality perspective, with only the intent to persue the different reality manifestation. One is like having to lock up your valuables, the other is like having to lock up your mind or at least keep a very safe distance apart.

They are quite different things, as regards how to handle them, going forward.

[Jhonie]

My heart goes out to Avalon.

[Jeffrey]

I talk to Christine on a near-daily basis, and let me assure you, she is doing great.

She has a lot of projects going on right now and is connecting with all kinds of new people. Many new doors have opened for her!

Claudia is burgeoning and in the pink as well. Both ladies are good friends of mine and will remain as such ... I love them! :heart:

You who else I love and still talk to occasionally, Chelley (9eagle9)! She is doing great too. She's writing a new book and being kept pretty busy by life's daily chores. She too is an amazing woman.

They've all long since moved on from this forum. Account or no account.

I'll leave y'all with this . . .

I am the whore, I am the virgin.

I am the victim, and I am the executioner.

I am the first breath, and I am the last.

I am the light in your eye, the hatred in your heart.

Your pain, your joy -- all me.

Love stems from my garden, and decay comes from my will alone.

This entire universe is nothing but I.

And I am you. I am all and thou art that.

My only hope is that you aren't as hard on yourself as you are on me.

That you show yourself the same kindness as you'd freely give another.

To love is a choice. To condemn and shame is a choice.

There is only you in this world. Choose wisely.

We are together forever.

Peace,

Vivek

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/--M82Bi-ZPcA/U-u2_81vojI/AAAAAAAABZE/rN-7dxxwEvc/w800-h800/Forgiveness%2Bis%2Bthe%2Bfragrance%2B%25E2%2580%2593%2BMark%2BTwain.jpg

[Bill Ryan]

.
Jeff, I love you like a brother. You're a scientist... so some day, you may appreciate and understand that you have just provided proof that for yourself, intellect, wisdom and awareness are not all the same thing.

:bearhug:

[3(C)+me]

I talk to Christine on a near-daily basis, and let me assure you, she is doing great.

She has a lot of projects going on right now and is connecting with all kinds of new people. Many new doors have opened for her!

Claudia is burgeoning and in the pink as well. Both ladies are good friends of mine and will remain as such ... I love them! :heart:

You who else I love and still talk to occasionally, Chelley (9eagle9)! She is doing great too. She's writing a new book and being kept pretty busy by life's daily chores. She too is an amazing woman.

They've all long since moved on from this forum. Account or no account.

I'll leave y'all with this . . .

I am the whore, I am the virgin.

I am the victim, and I am the executioner.

I am the first breath, and I am the last.

I am the light in your eye, the hatred in your heart.

Your pain, your joy -- all me.

Love stems from my garden, and decay comes from my will alone.

This entire universe is nothing but I.

And I am you. I am all and thou art that.

My only hope is that you aren't as hard on yourself as you are on me.

That you show yourself the same kindness as you'd freely give another.

To love is a choice. To condemn and shame is a choice.

There is only you in this world. Choose wisely.

We are together forever.

Peace,

Vivek

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/--M82Bi-ZPcA/U-u2_81vojI/AAAAAAAABZE/rN-7dxxwEvc/w800-h800/Forgiveness%2Bis%2Bthe%2Bfragrance%2B%25E2%2580%2593%2BMark%2BTwain.jpg

So you love and support a liar and a theft.?
Don't lend her any money or give her any your passwords, If I were you.
It's all good to be philosophical when your not on the other end of out right thievery but if you were, I don't think you would be putting out poems on forgiveness.
Your friends, red flag here, so you are scientist with no sense, go figure.

[Caliban]

I'm sorry to hear you're going through this Bill. To be betrayed like that by someone you loved is devastating. I don't know what went down between you, breaking hearts is one thing, but to run off with someone's savings... well, that's beyond the pale.

I wish you strength and quick rebounding. Our thoughts are with you.

[pyrangello]

I've belonged to another forum which is far away from this one, use to have 50,000 members, we went thru a cycle of upheaval for about a year, mods and higher ups gave warnings , suspensions and on and on. Finally after so much consideration people just started getting whacked and that took care of the problem, Lots of energy trying to massage others when more productive things could have been accomplished during that time. So then ran the opinions and slander by supporters of those whacked and then topics on the forum were locked out and deleted and more people got whacked . Until one day when everything became quiet and finally settled down. I don't know any of the particulars of any of this or the individuals involved but I do know this , its takes much time and effort to patrol the waterways of any forum and in order to keep moving the mission forward and protect the basic principles of what created Avalon there are casualties along the way. Its just the way it is and for me I care not to dive into any drama but only to look forward and continue on with the Avalon mission. Drama is nothing but a waste of everyone's time and I certainly don't want the job of the mods or admin, they always have there hands full even when things even seem quiet . Respect!

[meeradas]

My only instant question was "why public?".
I hope you guys have weighed all the pros and cons of this kind of procedure carefully - beforehand.

As i would hate to see this place break apart over this kind of stuff.

[Jeffrey]

I have never really twisted her arm about it, and I'm not going to.

There was a point in my life, when I was sixteen years old, where I was hanging around some poor characters. Long story short, I ended up burglarizing a house. I knew the people too, one of my best friends growing up. Her parents were like my second set of parents. They were out of town that weekend and I needed money for drugs and wanted to gain the respect of the people I was hanging around with.

I went to jail for several days after it happened. A few weeks after that, the family whose trust I betrayed invited me and my mother over for dinner. They weren't concerned about what I had taken, or how I had wronged them. They didn't call everybody to tell them what I had done, or how bad of a person I had become. They didn't press charges. They were concerned about me, and in their concern they reached out and embraced me with love and forgiveness.

That kind of experience has an impact on a young heart. It's totally transformative. I wasn't expected to graduate high-school, especially by certain family members, they had made up their mind about me . . . I had done something bad. Well, I did graduate high-school. I was told I would never go to college. Today, I have a four year degree and no college debt. Not only that, but I now live in a vedantic monastery. Talk about a turn around! Nobody from my high-school days would ever believe I am where I am today. And I'm not done, I have much more ahead of me.

My point is this. Some friends just love you, and that's it. Love is transformative, and so is shame and condemnation. I am where I am today because I am loved.

In addition to the experience I just shared, my grandmother taught me a thing or two about loving somebody no matter what. She would always tell me she loved me, even when hell was raining down on me from others, or when I'd shoot myself in the foot, metaphorically speaking. She would always let me know how much she loved me.

When this life is over, the only thing that will matter is how we treated others — even those who have wronged us. How did we respond? Did we throw them into a pit of guilt, shame, and condemnation? Did we judge them harshly? Did we try to inflict pain upon them in some way to get back a them? If we did these things, did we eventually come around and learn to forgive them? (Or did we just completely ignore them, allowing what was said or done to roll off our backs like water on a lotus?) Did we grant ourselves the same love and forgiveness?

This isn't about philosophy, this is about character and day-to-day life.

That which irritates us about others can often lead to a better understanding of ourselves, Jung said something like that. Search your own mind and heart to find your angularities. Its hard work at first, but the fruits of such work are what we take with us when this body goes. Its about character. How much love did we freely give to others and to ourselves, how much did we withhold and why?

Love is transformative. You want to change somebody, you love them and see what happens. Love yourself and see what happens. Try to understand that they are the same thing and see how your perspective and dealings with the world transforms as you continue practicing.

The intellect is seated in the heart.

[promezeus]

IT seems that many people are finding their shadow side coming to the surface, like a mind control triggering, and then acting it out unabashedly, and even defending it with gibberish.

The following is part of the caption under the still-posted Ruiner interview done by christine here:

http://earthempaths.net/wp/2015/10/02/the-ruiner-unplugged-shane-inside-out/



"This is not solely his story, it is our story ~ the one we are all responsible for. Some are here from other times, some from distant galaxies and some are Earth born, what we share is a recognition that the time of awakening calls for acts of responsibility."

So christine still considers the ruiner's blog an 'act of responsibility'? Just like orwell said would happen, the meaning of words and actions are twisted to justify Anything and everything which then leads to chaos. And then as already planned...from chaos to order, nwo.

[thunder24]

hmmm....he without sin...or oh shoot...throwing rocks at glass....aww i can't remember how it goes....;)

[Mike]

Jeff, you seem like a sweet guy, but you are also sanctimonious and naive.

Your experience above reads like the 5 minute feel-good resolution at the end of a disney 30 minute sitcom....the parents inviting you over, feeding you dinner, patting you.on the head etc

HELLO!!! Anybody home? We're talking about $60,000 here bud, not a few trinkets and odds n ends. For crying out loud, snap out of it Jeff! You didnt want to "twist her arm" over it? Really? It honestly never occured to you to ask about the theft of a small fortune? And you think this is somehow noble or something? Wow...just wow...

I wonder if l this fortune cookie wisdom of yours would have been suffient.for you had your life.savings been burglarized. Besides,.notions of forgiveness would be irrelevant if she'd simply return whats left of the money.

Its ok to be angry sometimes guys. Its ok to be judgemental.....especially in light of whats occured. Theres a time and place for lofty spiritual aphorisms, notions of karma etc..and a time for cold, hard calculation. Theres a difference between kindness and softness. Im not suggesting the firing squad for Christine...but reading these posts I.get.the.impression that a group hug and a hearty rendition of kumbaya would just about solve this thing for some of you. Guys , SHE STOLE $60,000! Think about it. I mean REALLY think about.it..

[ulli]

I have never really twisted her arm about it, and I'm not going to.

There was a point in my life, when I was sixteen years old, where I was hanging around some poor characters. Long story short, I ended up burglarizing a house. I knew the people too, one of my best friends growing up. Her parents were like my second set of parents. They were out of town that weekend and I needed money for drugs and wanted to gain the respect of the people I was hanging around with.

I went to jail for several days after it happened. A few weeks after that, the family whose trust I betrayed invited me and my mother over for dinner. They weren't concerned about what I had taken, or how I had wronged them. They didn't call everybody to tell them what I had done, or how bad of a person I had become. They were concerned about me, and in their concern they reached out and embraced me with love and forgiveness.

That kind of experience has an impact on a young heart. It's totally transformative. I wasn't expected to graduate high-school, especially by certain family members, they had made up their mind about me . . . I had done something bad. Well, I did graduate high-school. I was told I would never go to college. Today, I have a four year degree and no college debt. Not only that, but I now live in a vedantic monastery. Talk about a turn around! Nobody from my high-school days would ever believe I am where I am today. And I'm not done, I have much more ahead of me.

My point is this. Some friends just love you, and that's it. Love is transformative, and so is shame and condemnation. I am where I am today because I am loved.

In addition to the experience I just shared, my grandmother taught me a thing or two about loving somebody no matter what. She would always tell me she loved me, even when hell was raining down on me from others, or when I'd shoot myself in the foot, metaphorically speaking. She would always let me know how much she loved me.

When this life is over, the only thing that will matter is how we treated others — even those who have wronged us. How did we respond? Did we throw them into a pit of guilt, shame, and condemnation? Did we judge them harshly? Did we try to inflict pain upon them in some way to get back a them? If we did these things, did we eventually come around and learn to forgive them? (Or did we just completely ignore them, allowing what was said or done to roll off our backs like water on a lotus?) Did we grant ourselves the same love and forgiveness?

This isn't about philosophy, this is about character and day-to-day life.

That which irritates us about others can often lead to a better understanding of ourselves, Jung said something like that. Search your own mind and heart to find your angularities. Its hard work at first, but the fruits of such work are what we take with us when this body goes. Its about character. How much love did we freely give to others and to ourselves, how much did we withhold and why?

Love is transformative. You want to change somebody, you love them and see what happens. Love yourself and see what happens. Try to understand that they are the same thing and see how your perspective and dealings with the world transforms as you continue practicing.

The intellect is seated in the heart.

Sorry, Jeffrey, that's all very nice, but I find this kind of New Age unconditional love preachiness no better than the coerciveness of any religious fanatic or even convinced atheist. It's fundamentalism at its worst.

It rationalizes predatorial behavior, with the promise that the unconditional love they are asking for will turn them into good monks one day. And what happens to people who can't quite live up to those lofty expectations? Well, they'll get slandered, and have their reputations destroyed.

It does not allow people to go through the natural stages of growth processes. It's no different from Western civilization progress oriented "leaders" systematically destroying indigenous cultures, because they appear "backwards".

In this type of scenario predators will always come out on top. Thieves become richer, and liars end up collecting the greatest number of followers.

2000 years of Christian teachings to forgive over and over again has created the environment of the break-away civilization we are now witnessing. Turning people into victims deliberately and then blaming them for attracting that victimhood.

During Skype chats with Christine I would defend Bill as I believe I understood his MO better than she did, and she told me I was just projecting my own goodness at him.
I should have told her that by slandering Bill she was equally projecting her own evil at him.

[fourty-two]

To our whole Avalon Family - condolences for the sadness.

[ulli]

Jeff, you seem like a sweet guy, but you are also sanctimonious and naive.

Your experience above reads like the 5 minute feel-good resolution at the end of a disney 30 minute sitcom....the parents inviting you over, feeding you dinner, patting you.on the head etc

HELLO!!! Anybody home? We're talking about $60,000 here bud, not a few trinkets and odds n ends. For crying out loud, snap out of it Jeff! You didnt want to "twist her arm" over it? Really? It honestly never occured to you to ask about the theft of a small fortune? And you think this is somehow noble or something? Wow...just wow...

I wonder if l this fortune cookie wisdom of yours would have been suffient.for you had your life.savings been burglarized. Besides,.notions of forgiveness would be irrelevant if she'd simply return whats left of the money.

Its ok to be angry sometimes guys. Its ok to be judgemental.....especially in light of whats occured. Theres a time and place for lofty spiritual aphorisms, notions of karma etc..and a time for cold, hard calculation. Theres a difference between kindness and softness. Im not suggesting the firing squad for Christine...but reading these posts I.get.the.impression that a group hug and a hearty rendition of kumbaya would just about solve this thing for some of you. Guys , SHE STOLE $60,000! Think about it. I mean REALLY think about.it..

Just one more thing to add here... The fact that it was Bill's mother who had left her gold stash to him in her will adds to the injustice committed here.
Both my parents have passed on, and even the smallest trinkets which once belonged to mum have taken on sentimental value. If anyone dares to force me to hand this stuff over, as happened when my home was burgled by a masked Colombian gang and I lost a collection of antique Baltic amber jewelry that my mother's family had managed to keep in a safe place during two world wars, my trust in the universe was severely damaged. There is real trauma when this happens.
Sure, in the end the experience turned into a blessing, in that we made a firm decision to leave city life behind for good.

It's not respectful for another to preach to me about detachment from material things, it must come from within me, when I decide to toss it away.
Bill deserved better than to be treated with such treachery and disrespect.
Yet this is what happens all the time once someone comes under the spell of New Age gurus...they all want to set themselves up as "teachers".

[promezeus]

Bill, I feel for you man. I been there. I think you knew somewhere inside you that she couldn't be trusted, but you ignored the feeling. We just can't ignore our feelings, and we have to learn the hard way.

[3(C)+me]

Oh my, there is a very thin line between loving someone, even their dark side and loving yourself.
Why do drunks pair up with someone to supports and even makes excuses for their drinking, Enabling does nothing for the drinker and nothing for the person who supports their addictions, makes excuses for them (just love them). You can love someone by saying no I will not let you
1. abuse me
2. lie to me
3. steal from me
4. manipulate me with a smile and charming ways.
5. Create instability in my life because of your behavior.
Time to grow up, time to say no. Not allowed.
I also was given up on when I was little and no one thought I would amount to anything, but I used it to get to where I needed to go with an advanced degree and lots of money and in the end, I just felt like a well paid slave, big learning curve.
Now I just need to surround myself with people I do not have to enable, make excuses for, rationalize bad behavior, have them control me because they think they have the right, turn the other way and pretend there unstable behavior is not happening. Personally I see lots of people getting hit in this manner, attacks of various kinds. I have had a few of my own, not fun.
We need to address the tyrants and the liars in our own life not make excuses for them and enable them. It diminshes both parties. It will come back to haunt you.
To deal with a personal issue in this manner I think is very brave, I do not think I personally would be able to do it this way.

[Mu2143]

I don't know the parties who have been banned. I accept that both what Paul and Bill say is true. The abrupt change in behavior is exactly what we should expect from someone being remote influenced or psychically attacked. We of all people should know this.
When I was reading this I heard a strange noise from the TV which is off , this is a supernatural confirmation !!! . Get this all time and I read the clock is 3:44 AM

[Caliban]

Sorry, Jeffrey, that's all very nice, but I find this kind of New Age unconditional love preachiness no better than the coerciveness of any religious fanatic or even convinced atheist. It's fundamentalism at its worst.


Yes, real love allows for all feelings, and discounts none. Anger included. Love leaves none of them at the door, amputates none.
For too long we've been told that some of our feelings and thoughts are wrong or unloving. When all we want to do is be whole and self accepting.

[RunningDeer]

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/Recovered/writing_zpsd26h7e8a.GIF I’m having trouble with the thanks button. Strong points are made in a post, but they get cancelled out with opinions that I see differently.

Don’t take my silence for not caring. I’m here. I'm listening. It’s the best I can do.

RunningDeer ♡

[Jeffrey]

If I love somebody, I can feel a whole range of emotions towards them. Like anger for example. If I don't metabolism certain emotions properly -- whether on my own, with their help, or with the help of friends -- then they fester. I might bury them thinking what needs attention within will go away, but it just grows into something bigger.

Alternatively, anger can be a good metabolizer in itself. The body uses acid for very vital and specific purposes in the body. However, if there is too much or it goes beyond its intended boundaries, that's bad for the health of the body.

That being said, I take it upon myself to consider these things when dealing with someone I love.

Sometimes I can't think clearly about it because I'm so disturbed and overtaken by strong emotions on this end of the spectrum. That doesn't mean they are bad emotions to have, as in the metaphor with acid in the body. In such a case, I need to take a walk, exercise, pray, or just do something to help vent it that won't make the situation worse.

It all depends on the context. Everything has its proper place.

Bill, listen to me carefully. As a friend and a brother I am telling you this. This type of thread invites decay. The carcasses of Christine and Claudia's avatars have been laid out in public, inciting gossip and inviting the vultures to come out and pick at the remains. That's fine and all, but there are consequences to things like this. Building up the type of energy that is attracted to stuff like this is unwise. I'm not saying it was on purpose, but it is happening.

Eventually, it will turn on you. Thinking it can be contained by proper moderation is a naive position. Nature prevails, always, and she has a very ugly side to her. Necessary, but terrible. Think about what's brewing in here and consider deleting this thread.

I'll leave y'all to it then.

. . . one last thing about casting judgment in general.

Once again, Jung said it best, "but what if I should discover that the least among them all, the poorest of all the beggars, the most impudent of all the offenders, yea the very fiend himself - that these are within me, and that I myself stand in need of my own kindness, that I myself am the enemy who must be loved - what then? [...] there is no more talk of love and long suffering; we say to the brother within us, "Raca", and condemn and rage against ourselves. We hide him from the world; we deny ever having met this least among the lowly in ourselves, and had it been God himself who drew near to us in this despicable form, we should deny ourselves a thousand times before a single cock had crowed."

Peace.

[Nasu]

I feel for you Bill. The betrayal is horrid.. I am so sorry you had to go through something like this. I do think that karma will resolve things, but until then have courage. It seems, for me at least, I have had the karma sutra done to me over the years and like you in this instanse, not in a good way..

It does make us into who we are. Its not a glib comment to say it will make you stronger.. Ninjutsu is defined as being the art of endurance, so in a sense, this and other pains have made you into the truth ninja you are today.. Plants and wild animals grow and flourish only according to the amount of suffering they have endured, you too will endure this.. I have every faith in you...xxx.... N

Ps. I think the mods did a great job here, in every respect, a very measured and open disclosure of the finality of tough and chalenging events, thank you..x

[onawah]

Many good points have been made, but if we look at this situation as a whole, and all the steps necessary to complete the journey to resolution, then I think the following makes for a good roadmap.
I am not familiar with the man who wrote this, Lama Marut; I found the webpage almost by accident, but I think he gives a wholistic and realistic perspective for a situation such as we have here, from soup to nuts, so to speak, ie, from spiritual naivety (which my own mentor, Dr. Christopher Hills once said is extremely dangerous) to "grandmother love" to tough love, to forgiveness.
It's easy and quite normal to get stuck in one stage of that journey for awhile, but it can also be counterproductive, so keeping the final goal in mind can be helpful though not to the point that we skip any necessary stages, or we can end up virtually without a leg to stand on.
(Bold letters my emphasis.)

From the very beginning exert yourself in the practice of treating others and yourself the same. When the happiness and sufferings are the same, than you will care for all just as you do yourself. (8.90)
In the first years (decades?) of our spiritual path we are fighting against our deeply entrenched habit of thinking exclusively about ourselves. We know all too well that we just want to enjoy life and avoid pain and unpleasantness, and we train ourselves to acknowledge that others feel the same. We know how we want other people to treat us, and we extrapolate from that to imagine how others would wish to be treated by us. We put ourselves in others’ shoes and try to see things from their perspective.
But as time passes, we may come to realize that we need to think more deeply and with a more nuanced understanding about what kindness towards others really entails. Cultivating a more sophisticated version of this virtue requires us to move beyond a simple warm and fuzzy sentimentality. “Grandmother love,” as Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche called it – the kindness that manifests as extreme gentleness and benignity – is not always the kindest thing you can do for another person. The object of your concern may need a bit of “tough love” instead of a grandmother love that ends up just encouraging and enabling more self-destructive thinking and behavior.
Of course, tough love can simply function as an excuse to bully others if selfishness and our own inexhaustible ego needs are not taken out of the equation. As our spiritual practice matures and ages, we become more and more aware of the many and often subterranean strategies the self deploys to enhance itself. “Being kind” (in either the grandmotherly way or in the tough love modality) can become just another such self-seeking scheme, masking a deep-seated obsession about whether others like you and think of you as a “good person” or respect and fear you as their moral supervisor and cosmic boss.
“True compassion,” writes Trungpa Rinpoche, “is ruthless, from the ego’s point of view, because it does not consider ego’s drive to maintain itself.” A deeper, less self-interested form of kindness involves getting your ego out of the way altogether in order to do what is best for another – even when the other might not like you, praise you, or be grateful to you for doing so.
Another manifestation of a more fully developed take on kindness involves turning it towards oneself – not in the old, egotistical way but in a manner that spawns self-acceptance rather than self-centeredness.
Practitioners, like so many others in our modern culture, are susceptible to a particularly virulent form of self-absorption – depression and low self-esteem. Thinking about oneself and how bad we feel is still thinking about oneself and not about others. And with a little misunderstanding, we can perversely convince ourselves that self-pity is a sign of selflessness and that feeling like a loser is self-sacrificial.
A mature practitioner fully comprehends that being dejected and unhappy is not an advanced spiritual attainment. On the contrary, such gloomy self-indulgence is just another ego ploy. In order to combat it, we learn to exercise kindness towards ourselves in the form of forgiveness.
Anyone who has labored on a genuine spiritual path will have been encouraged from the start to forgive others who have hurt or angered us. But we must also learn to forgive ourselves for our failures and shortcomings, realizing that we are in this regard also just like other people. We too make mistakes. And we too deserve forgiveness.
In the spiritual life, we do have our little successes. But far more often, trying to live a good life is shot through with failure: we regularly fail to live up to the expectations we have of ourselves, to our own ideals, and to our highest goals. Instead of using failure and disappointment as excuses to give in to narcissistic pity, as mature practitioners we will treat ourselves as we have learned to treat others who fail.
We forgive.
And then we move on.
We get back on the job of working to become helpers who practice kindness to others instead of helpees who demand only the kindness of others. We doggedly, patiently, and cheerfully keep on keepin’ on, knowing that there’s nothing else nearly as important to be doing with this short and precious life.
From:http://lamamarut.org/2012/04/the-qualities-of-spiritual-maturity-part-2-kindness/

[ThePythonicCow]

Bill, listen to me carefully. As a friend and a brother I am telling you this. This type of thread invites decay. The carcasses of Christine and Claudia's avatars have been laid out in public, inciting gossip and inviting the vultures to come out and pick at the remains. That's fine and all, but there are consequences to things like this. Building up the type of energy that is attracted to stuff like this is unwise. I'm not saying it was on purpose, but it is happening.
I disagree with your premise, vigorously.

Sometimes it is true, as you say, that when person A calls out person B for some misdeed, the real problem lies more with person A's inadequately processed anger.

But sometimes, it is more the other way. Sometimes B should be called out for their misdeeds.

One of the fundamental mechanisms essential to healthy communities is shaming those who have acted dishonorably. I do not accept principles that categorically reject the validity of any such shaming.

I stand firm on my right and duty to support healthy communities, including at times by shaming dishonorable acts.

[Daozen]

I hope you get through this Bill. It's OK to be mad. I wouldn't listen to all the coffee-mug wisdom about being "non-judgmental."- people should be openly held to account for their actions.

I think this thread should be public. I don't believe in sweeping things like this under the carpet.

The other party can write a statement if they want.

Best Wishes,

[Bill Ryan]

...
I disagree with your premise, vigorously.



And I do, as well.

Jeff — forgive me, but I have to say this.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

You use the word 'love' a lot, but your posts portray you as shallowly pious and self-righteous in an area where you don't know the facts — and, more worryingly, don't seem to be at all interested in what they really may be.

A true friend would have written me (or any of the other mods) privately, with sincere concern, knowing all the parties involved (and, heaven knows, maybe being in a position to help... did that ever occur to you? That's an honest question) — to ask in confidence what on earth had really happened.

But instead, you're grandstanding, and making yourself look not only naive but naively judgmental and naively opinionated. Your posts here have made up a sequence of saccharine, thinly-disguised insults.

I'd have thought you to be more wise, caring, and balanced. But rather, you seem to want to be a preacher, and quite a condescending one, too. You may have a lot to learn before you ever start talking with wisdom to real people about the real world, from which you appear to be very detached.

Here's one of your insults: implicit in your judgment is that the entire notion of love and trust (and, with that, an almost superhuman degree of responsibility, care and patience, too) was somehow quite unknown to myself or any of the moderators.

You seem to be saying that love, together with all these other qualities, was somehow quite absent. And — you suggest, really very arrogantly, that you may be the only person in the room who really knows what love is.

How wrong you are. You just couldn't be further from the truth.

If you want to know that truth, then write to me privately, and tell me in equal truth that you'd genuinely like to know exactly what happened over the course of the last 14 months. That'd be entirely welcome. But only if your request is sincere.

In reply, I'll give you my very best shot, and maybe the other mods will too. It might take a bit of time, because there's a great deal of detail, all documented.

But if you really don't want to know, then please leave this thread... and stop pretending to be a friend when you seem barely qualified to know what that really means.

[Callista]

Hats off to the mods who have pushed through with this disclosure – and Avalon is all about disclosure – yes?

The human collective is now demanding transparency and we are seeing it in all aspects of human interaction – look at the political scenario with transparency emerging from a myriad of events around the globe.

If we are demanding transparency on a collective level, then we must be prepared to experience it from a personal point of view also.

The Truth will always come to light at some point or other, and we might as well face it now.

It won’t get any prettier with age.

On a personal note, Will and I respect and admire and love Bill for being the Gentleman he so obviously is, and we trust that this ugly truth will be resolved as soon as possible so he can move on with his life without carrying the shadow of this situation.

[Valley]

My heart goes out to all involved... Bill, Christine, mods & members. May we all learn well from these 'trials' & 'trails'... as we keep learning more about the 'heart of the matter'... the Heart. Even if all 'accusations'/statements are accurate... Does this mean that we should withhold our love for one or another? If so, then where is it that we should 'draw that line'? For myself I've learned that people and their feelings are more 'pertinent' than possessions... and that projecting negativity onto another is never worth my time... it never makes me feel any better.

What is the 'proper' course of action? Everyone decides that for themselves... and everyone has their own 'good reasons', as they see it, in any given situation. I also know that when emotions run high, or when folks feel violated, they act out in 'distorted' ways they normally wouldn't... Which is not an excuse, but a fact.

I don't see any 'bad' people here in this story... Questionable actions that ask for explanations/reparations, yes. I'd like to hear all sides before 'passing any judgements'.

Wishing All Well...

[kirolak]

I just don't know what to say, either :( but find the idea of attracting a source to take something away quite dreadful - I have found that the only things that I "lost" or had taken/stolen from me were items I had mixed feelings about; for example about 20 years ago I entered a new relationship, & lost interest in my beautiful, concert-level classical guitar, even to the point of thinking I should perhaps sell it. Within weeks my house was broken into, & all valuables, including the guitar, were taken. It broke my heart, but I soon understood what had happened on an energetic level, & it was all my fault.

But I don't see Bill's situation as the same. . . . . but it is quite awful, & I wish all concerned health & healing.

[Fairy Friend]

How disappointing that money I donated was not used to support Project Avalon as intended and it's being used for who knows what purpose. If I donated to a charity and it was supposed to feed the hungry or give water to those dying of thirst and it is embezzled, then the purpose it was intended for is affected. People who could be helped are not. I hesitate to donate to that charity again as well. The charity may not have hard feelings nor a need to forgive, but there are ripples of those affected and it's purpose derailed.

[promezeus]

...
I disagree with your premise, vigorously.



And I do, as well.

Jeff — forgive me, but I have to say this.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

You use the word 'love' a lot, but your posts portray you as shallowly pious and self-righteous in an area where you don't know the facts — and, more worryingly, don't seem to be at all interested in what they really may be.

A true friend would have written me (or any of the other mods) privately, with sincere concern, knowing all the parties involved (and, heaven knows, maybe being in a position to help... did that ever occur to you? That's an honest question) — to ask in confidence what on earth had really happened.

But instead, you're grandstanding, and making yourself look not only naive but naively judgmental and naively opinionated. Your posts here have made up a sequence of saccharine, thinly-disguised insults.

I'd have thought you to be more wise, caring, and balanced. But rather, you seem to want to be a preacher, and quite a condescending one, too. You may have a lot to learn before you ever start talking with wisdom to real people about the real world, from which you appear to be very detached.

Here's one of your insults: implicit in your judgment is that the entire notion of love and trust (and, with that, an almost superhuman degree of responsibility, care and patience, too) was somehow quite unknown to myself or any of the moderators.

You seem to be saying that love, together with all these other qualities, was somehow quite absent. And — you suggest, really very arrogantly, that you may be the only person in the room who really knows what love is.

How wrong you are. You just couldn't be further from the truth.

If you want to know that truth, then write to me privately, and tell me in equal truth that you'd genuinely like to know exactly what happened over the course of the last 14 months. That'd be entirely welcome. But only if your request is sincere.

In reply, I'll give you my very best shot, and maybe the other mods will too. It might take a bit of time, because there's a great deal of detail, all documented.

But if you really don't want to know, then please leave this thread... and stop pretending to be a friend when you seem barely qualified to know what that really means.

These Jeffrey and Ruiner type infestations are exactly the kind of transhuman, stockholm syndrome, zombie humans that are being deliberately 'created' by the ptb as a cancer to infect all of humanity.
Biology researchers say that the normal healthy ratio of good to bad bacteria in the intestines is 85% to 15%. That's interesting and can be extrapolated to humanity at large.
A limited amount of adversity or bad bacteria infestation is healthy, but when a critical level is breached, and the Immune system can't fight it off, then the organism i.e individual or humanity, begins to succumb and die.
So it's up to us, the immune system of the planet, to stand up for what we know to be healthy in our GUTS.

[Ciaran]

Sorry to hear what happened to you Bill, as they say its only your friends and family that can **** you over, I have read a lot of new age nonsense spouted in this thread in regards to how you should deal or feel with this situation, a thief is a thief and no matter which way people want to spin it you are entitled to feel how you wish, righteous anger is a gift from the creator it can be a very powerful force for change, at least you got to see the true nature of these people involved and they are not part of your life anymore, this idea that we should automatically forgive people who wrong us is a programmed flaw by the elites, so that we don’t get off our knees and do something about the horrible injustices that are perpetrated against humanity on a daily basis, unfortunately we live in a reality were there are human parasites seeking opportunity’s to profit from our kindness and tolerances. What doesn’t kill us makes us stronger brother.

[mosquito]

Sooo much being stirred up here. We can either let it divide us, or we can let it heal us.

Jeffrey - Every message I've ever sent you, every post I've ever made regarding your work has been sincere. I admire your talent and I truly believe you're a blessing to this forum (and to life). Maybe what's going on here is outside of your current experience. That's not meant to be patronizing, just a statement. What's happened would have been outside my range of experience (I'm 57, been to 31 countries, lived and worked in 7, had at least 4 different lives in my 57 years) until 3 and a half months ago, so I'm not criticizing you for anything.

In early 2012 I started a new relationship. There was a huge cultural difference between us, but that was no real problem for me. I respected her wish to refrain from sex unless we were married; I respected her wishes, her values and the wishes of her family. I helped her in every way I could, loved her with the fullnes of my heart, supported her and was paying for her to go to university. She's from a country where you can't get ANY job without a degree; barmaids, supermarket cashiers - all graduates. I struggled through the 3 years, never turned her down, was always there for her when she needed me. I was staying with her in August this year, and noticed that my money appeared to be diminishing. So I set a trap (hating to be suspicious). I simple arranged my backpack and moneybelt in a particular way and waited to see if anything changed ... which it did. The amount was inconsequential, when confronted she admitted it.

The reason I'm telling you all this is because of the question of forgiveness. Whn I confronted my ex, I told her "If I'd had 3 years of joy and bliss with you, I could forgive you. But I haven't. I've had 3 years of stress and struggle. 3 years of respecting YOUR culture with no respect shown to me in return".

And right now, I still have no idea how to process this. No idea how to truly forgive. Sure I pardon her, I'm not going to take legal proceedings against her or anything. As I said, the amount was inconsequential, I just DON'T GET IT. I mean, WHY would would you steal from someone who has always given you everything you want ? From someone who so obviously loves you ? Every so often I just stop whatever it is I'm doing and try to figure it out. And I can't. Not because I'm a spiritual baby or an unwashed troglodyte with my knuckles scraping along the ground. I just don't get it.

Then there's my 2nd wife. But we won't talk about that, suffice it to say that after 12 years I'm no closer to "letting go" or comprhending.

So .... I fully empathise with Bill, I know how unimaginably difficult this kind of thing is to process and how it can threaten to undermine one's belief in human nature.

Be well all.

[RunningDeer]

These Jeffrey... type infestations are exactly the kind of transhuman, stockholm syndrome, zombie humans that are being deliberately 'created' by the ptb as a cancer to infect all of humanity.
Jeffrey’s not an infestation. Click here to get to know the person-whole. It’s a link to the 47 informative threads (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/search.php?searchid=12409616) he’s shared with us.

If you’re short on time then read the titles. You’ll see why I can’t let your comment pass. I’m aware it’s not about the number of threads but it demonstrates Jeffrey's intent to assist in humanity's growth.

One last point, a picture’s worth a thousand words. This is the picture on Jeffrey’s message board (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/member.php?4012-Jeffrey). All of this is heart-breaking.


http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii610/WhiteCrowBlackDeer/Jeff_zpslnkfnaso.jpg


RunningDeer

[Sunny-side-up]

Only read through the first page Bill and I'm quite shocked really, I always thought she was a clean minded spiritual person and glad to think you two where together!
so
Sorry for your: situation, loss of a friend, loss of a partner, you don't deserve any of it :(

Hope all becomes good for you again and that if so desired you find that true partner for you!

Love
Alan

[Sunny-side-up]

Addition to my last reply here:
I hope Christine and Karelia get over what ever it is that has caused them to go off the rails like it seems they have?

Good health and Love to all
Alan

[Flash]

Hi Fairy Friend,

Do not hesitate again to give, the problem waw quickly solved by Bill. And yes, we call that funds embezzlement and I have seen many charities whose some workforce were caught doing this. It is much worse if giving to a charity for which we did not know, but it was in fact owned by the Clintons or Rockerfellers (similar thing happened to me 2 months ago lol)

I personnally think this thread should be closed too before creating further damages.



How disappointing that money I donated was not used to support Project Avalon as intended and it's being used for who knows what purpose. If I donated to a charity and it was supposed to feed the hungry or give water to those dying of thirst and it is embezzled, then the purpose it was intended for is affected. People who could be helped are not. I hesitate to donate to that charity again as well. The charity may not have hard feelings nor a need to forgive, but there are ripples of those affected and it's purpose derailed.

[Marianne]

How disappointing that money I donated was not used to support Project Avalon as intended and it's being used for who knows what purpose. If I donated to a charity and it was supposed to feed the hungry or give water to those dying of thirst and it is embezzled, then the purpose it was intended for is affected. People who could be helped are not. I hesitate to donate to that charity again as well. The charity may not have hard feelings nor a need to forgive, but there are ripples of those affected and it's purpose derailed.

I understand the disappointment anyone would feel if their hard-earned money donations went to something they hadn't intended.

To clarify, Avalon has a new Pay Pal account now that is as safe as possible, and under Bill Ryan's control. So please feel confident that the donations you make will go to the mission of Avalon.

Here's the post Bill made in August 2015 announcing the new Pay Pal account: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?83489-Project-Avalon-has-a-new-PayPal-account&p=986025&viewfull=1#post986025

[giovonni]

This thread development has been very hard to ingest ...

For you have my sympathy Bill in all this very personal business.
As you might recall, I had the pleasure to meet and share a few
days with both You and Christine at the Eceiti Ranch (May 2012).
I remember then, observing a couple who appeared very devoted
and complementary of each other in a closeness of bond.

I do wish you both well, and pray this all will be peacefully resolved soon.

Blessings Always Gio

[RunningDeer]

I personnally think this thread should be closed too before creating further damages.
Me, too.....

[poetbil]

i guess ,sometimes you have to be tough
It's ok ,and fair for both parts

[Frenchy]

My heart goes out to you Bill. I am reminded of Eve Lorgen and her book, The Love Bite:

Your remarks to Bill are very astute and full of feeling. My cause for replying, not simply leaving thanks, is to write I find your post synchronistic, as , totally un-related to PA, I've just sent a long-overdue reply to a friend ( I've never met ), and writing in my mail to her about Eve's book, Love bites ! ! There are reasons for everything in life ! ( HeartSong , puts it brilliantly succicintly, " subject to this thing called life " ! ( School-of-life ? )!

[Lifebringer]

Our prayers for a tenfold financial blessing to ease the wrong done to Bill.

Humph.:bearhug:

[Sierra]

My only instant question was "why public?".
I hope you guys have weighed all the pros and cons of this kind of procedure carefully - beforehand.

As i would hate to see this place break apart over this kind of stuff.

It's the Milabs, Meeradas. The only reason this was made public.

The personal details are a heads up for those who understand character, and integrity *are* the foundation to any relationship.

If Avalon breaks apart protecting some of the most downtrodden people on the planet, it will be a good death, (but I think we're tougher than that).

The topic of Milabs is so misunderstood. Reiterating a little bit from the opening post:


It is also absolutely crucial at this time that we address the delicate subject of the health and safety of Milabs, abductees, ritualistic abuse victims, targeted individuals, and other such systematically abused victims.

The Avalon Community WILL NOT be used as a place where such systematically abused victims are "harvested", or otherwise privately cajoled into experimentation with non-professional counseling or unproven healing modalities, or earmarked as targets to further exploit with private agendas great or small. The moderation team feels it is important to add that Project Avalon does not endorse unprofessional or inexperienced psychological counseling of such victims. We encourage members to report any conduct they feel is to the contrary.

Good counselors save lives. Christine and Karelia appear to be talented, spirited individuals - however they are not trained counselors, nor are they qualified to declare themselves "healers" of what are some of the most psychologically complex and challenging abuse victims. These victims need (and deserve) highly-trained trauma/abuse-victim support. It is our hope that Christine and Karelia will take this into consideration as they tread forward on their path. It will not continue at Avalon!

There are many experienced, professionals available who have specific training in this field, and have been working with victims of such systemic abuse for 25+ years. We highly suggest that members take this into consideration when researching potential help. It is our hope that members will use discernment when joining in focus groups and if engaging, engage with caution when experimenting with various healing modalities.

Sierra

[Sierra]

Into every ones life a drop of rain must fall.
Sometimes its a deluge.

Chris

You made me laugh.

Yeah... It's been a year the mods have been processing this and it was hard. Letting go, letting go, the stages of denial, anger, grief, acceptance, removing Skype contact names at one blow, removing names from my roll of Avalon friends at another blow.

Finally standing in prayer, standing in sovereignty, to give a formal farewell with a deliberate cutting of all energetic cords...

It hurt. Really bad. Wept much. Had to be done.

I love the mod team. I loved it when Christine and Claudia were there.

I wish them clarity, wisdom, and strength on the road they've chosen to walk.

Sierra

[Bill Ryan]

.
Dear All —

As you may have seen, I've not thanked any posts on this thread. It's always a dilemma... if I thank one, I kind of have to thank them all! So I quite often step back from thanking anyone, on some threads. That is never ever personal, in any situation.

But the above post from Sierra needs to be framed and stuck on the wall. I tried to talk about the love present in the mods team to Jeffrey here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?87179-Closing-the-Avalon-accounts-of-two-long-standing-members&p=1025302&viewfull=1#post1025302), but Sierra has just shown it.

Do please understand that many extremely close friendships have been fractured here. There have been many betrayals. The full story has not nearly been told, for all good reasons of sensitivity and propriety. (As Sierra underscored, the entire reason this decision was finally taken, and posted publicly, was to protect Milabs elsewhere on the internet from coming to harm.)

Long may Sierra have the heart of a small planet.. and all the mods do, believe me. She just has a very wonderful way of expressing it sometimes.

:sun:

[Cristian]

Bill,

It was a relationship.

Thinking of the situation outside the relationship is maybe a waste of time.

That’s why entities are so interesting …understand the past and why.

Why a demonic entity chooses to possess some people? Why? It was a long chain of events that lead to that . Understand the events. The cause.

Why.

One can’t just post on a forum …Christine did this or that…

Why?

Admit she was hurt by you. Admit she was in pain . Admit you understood the energy inside her and the fact that at some point you disregard that. Admit the pain inflicted even if it was not intentional .
Understand the pain.

Nothing is simple ; nothing ‘’ just happens “. There is a cause in everything.

Admit it .

Why…You must know why...you must understand .

For once admit your pain…and forgive somebody else’s.

[Delight]

14 MONTHS! That is a long time. If we were not in the inner PA social group, this was all outside of our reading. Why NOW?


It's the Milabs, Meeradas. The only reason this was made public.

The personal details are a heads up for those who understand character, and integrity *are* the foundation to any relationship.

If Avalon breaks apart protecting some of the most downtrodden people on the planet, it will be a good death, (but I think we're tougher than that).

The topic of Milabs is so misunderstood.

Please explain the choice to disclose the Personal betrayal because of the Milab issue?

[ThePythonicCow]

Why NOW?
Because that's how long it took.

[ThePythonicCow]

Please explain the choice to disclose the Personal betrayal because of the Milab issue?
If it were just a personal betrayal, we'd surely have taken a different path.

The path that victims of systemic abuse travel is a difficult one. We help each other, whether we are aware of being such a victim our self or not, by sharing information and experiences that may help a little to light the way for others, and to warn of potential dangers.

[ThePythonicCow]

Bill,
...
For once admit your pain…and forgive somebody else’s.
That part is for Bill to understand, however and whenever he might choose to.

He did not tolerate the rest of the moderation team choosing to make this public in order to expose his personal feelings, nor in order to harm others. Bill is not that sort of person. Not at all.

[Heartsong]

Please close this thread. People can't help but project their feelings and experiences into this very personal and unique situation and the hurt is extending into the larger Avalon Family.

[Mike]

Bill,

It was a relationship.

Thinking of the situation outside the relationship is maybe a waste of time.

That’s why entities are so interesting …understand the past and why.

Why a demonic entity chooses to possess some people? Why? It was a long chain of events that lead to that . Understand the events. The cause.

Why.

One can’t just post on a forum …Christine did this or that…

Why?

Admit she was hurt by you. Admit she was in pain . Admit you understood the energy inside her and the fact that at some point you disregard that. Admit the pain inflicted even if it was not intentional .
Understand the pain.

Nothing is simple ; nothing ‘’ just happens “. There is a cause in everything.

Admit it .

Why…You must know why...you must understand .

For once admit your pain…and forgive somebody else’s.



Your detachment from reality is staggering.

What does anyone's pain have to do with the theft of $60,000?

Forgiveness? How about we talk about that AFTER she returns the $, eh?

Christian, $60,000.

Repeat: $60,000.

It's my sincere hope that i'm now dreaming, and that I will soon awaken to a world of sanity and reason...

$60,000....$60,000....$60,000.....


ive got nothing left to say here. Ive been left speechless.

:banplease:

[Dennis Leahy]

I have never really twisted her arm about it, and I'm not going to.

...

This isn't about philosophy, this is about character and day-to-day life.

... Its about character. ...Yes, it is about character, and integrity. ("Integrity is the world's scarcest commodity" - Wade Frazier)

Did you make restitution for your burglary, Jeff? You stole "stuff" and that stuff had value. Did you ever repay them? Even if they said you didn't have to repay them, did you? If you say, "no", then who are you to mention "character", since that would mean you do not have the foundational integrity to exhibit "character." I'm not asking if THEY forgave you or exonerated you (that would be THEIR character, THEIR integrity, not yours) - I'm asking if you had the personal integrity to repay them the full value of the "stuff" you stole.

You've heard of "situational ethics", no doubt. Like when your friend embezzles money donated to a cause, or when your friend "C" steals $60K from your other friend "B", you don't sing "la la la la la" and pretend it didn't happen, right? You wouldn't just recite some New Age pseudobabble, providing an excuse for friend "C", thus aiding and abetting in the theft, would you? You wouldn't pretend that your friend "C" has integrity, or character, or compassion, would you?

"I have never really twisted her arm about it, and I'm not going to." Why phrase it using a reference to torture, Jeff? A good man, a good friend wouldn't consider torture, but they also wouldn't be so cowardly as to be silent about it. I see you've ended your silence now, and rather than remaining silent you have now spoken out - only it wasn't in defense of the truth, or what is right, or your friend that was ripped off - you chose to end your silence on the matter to defend theft, defend deception, and defend the thief, using deflective manipulation whitewashed with disingenuous 'love and light' claptrap.

Well, I did ask her, Jeff. I conversed with her in a series of emails. I asked her to explain, because like everyone else that got taken-in by her charmingly rambling, poetic, enigmatic, New-Agey, Universal "Love and Light" buzzword mishmash, I figured there MUST be some real explanation, some real reason. (Not for the break-up - that is none of my business - but I asked for her side of the story of why she opened a safe, removed Bill's gold coins, closed the safe, and left the country - only confessing it to an unsuspecting Bill months later.) Her emails back to me were increasingly guarded and terse, but she did tell me that she took Bill's gold because - since they HAD been married - she considered all of Bill's worldly possessions as hers. If she had integrity but was confused about joint ownership of property, then of course she wouldn't mind it if Bill keeps her half of the Ecuador property, right? Right??? Somehow, I think she locked-in on the phrase, "what's mine is mine, and what's yours is mine", and I don't expect a notarized letter assigning her half of the Ecuador property to Bill to show up anytime soon.

Why did I step-in, Jeff? Why did I try to get Christine's side of the story? Why did I offer to mediate? Why did I ask her - months ago - to return Bill's gold? Isn't that what a real friend does? You think Bill didn't try, privately, for many many months, to get his stolen property back? Christine KNEW this was going to go public if she didn't make full restitution - it was brought up in the conversation between me and her. She DECIDED not to work it out privately, knowing it was going to expose her true character. She evidently doesn't care, and knows that she's got a number of people - like you, Jeff - spellbound with poetic Universal lovey-dovey aphorisms and verbal declarations of her somehow being the victim, that will leap to her rescue. Well, guess what - that's not friendship. Not to either the thief or the victim. The victim already has a scar on his back from a knife. You really want to stick another one in, and pretend to be friends?

When the Avalon mods and admins had created a document (the document alone took weeks, and many many revisions), we felt we should show it to Bill before we posted it. As was stated, Bill asked us not to mention the personal theft. We tried revising the document to exclude it, but the document HAD to achieve a higher purpose - that of warning MILABS and other trauma victims about the deception of someone (even if they mean well) declaring themselves a "Healer" and Avalon appearing to sanction, by the "Healer's" association with Avalon, that these trauma victims are in good hands, safe hands, skilled hands. We felt it was - and is - critical to expose the character behind the mask.

[ThePythonicCow]

Please close this thread. People can't help but project their feelings and experiences into this very personal and unique situation and the hurt is extending into the larger Avalon Family.

As myself and others have said above, the purpose of this thread is not to post the details of a personal situation.

However, as usual, the personal self, the community, and the personal of others, is entangled. Such is life.

In my view, the purpose of this thread, to provide one more little marker on the rugged trail that victims of system abuse travel, remains important.

[transiten]

I talk to Christine on a near-daily basis, and let me assure you, she is doing great.

She has a lot of projects going on right now and is connecting with all kinds of new people. Many new doors have opened for her!

Claudia is burgeoning and in the pink as well. Both ladies are good friends of mine and will remain as such ... I love them! :heart:

You who else I love and still talk to occasionally, Chelley (9eagle9)! She is doing great too. She's writing a new book and being kept pretty busy by life's daily chores. She too is an amazing woman.

They've all long since moved on from this forum. Account or no account.

I'll leave y'all with this . . .

I am the whore, I am the virgin.

I am the victim, and I am the executioner.

I am the first breath, and I am the last.

I am the light in your eye, the hatred in your heart.

Your pain, your joy -- all me.

Love stems from my garden, and decay comes from my will alone.

This entire universe is nothing but I.

And I am you. I am all and thou art that.

My only hope is that you aren't as hard on yourself as you are on me.

That you show yourself the same kindness as you'd freely give another.

To love is a choice. To condemn and shame is a choice.

There is only you in this world. Choose wisely.

We are together forever.

Peace,

Vivek

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/--M82Bi-ZPcA/U-u2_81vojI/AAAAAAAABZE/rN-7dxxwEvc/w800-h800/Forgiveness%2Bis%2Bthe%2Bfragrance%2B%25E2%2580%2593%2BMark%2BTwain.jpg

OK :facepalm: After reading this I'm absolutely certain Bill and the Mods have got all the horses in the stable. I have not had any interaction with Christine that I remember but I can - from having had extremely painful manipulating relationship experiences including a therapist trying to seduce me as I searched for help and brainwashing by a meditation guru having a psychosis after breaking up- sense that 9eagle9 is a mentally bullying and abusive person.

I also had this confirmed on another forum from a Swiss psychologist who also had run into her and she thanked me for having stood up for persons 9eagle9 had been harassing. She once asked me to look at her astrological transits and I mentioned some stressful aspects in a very balanced way and she didn't even thank me.

[Debra]

My support goes out to you all on the mod team, from my perspective you are all profound thinkers with admirable skills in handling the human dynamics that daily surge through this forum.

Paul, your opening post moved me and reinforced the seriousness of this issue, the core of it and the fine detail I am not privy to but I trust that something mighty deep has ripped through.

My sense of Paul over the years has been of someone who is considerate, impeccably so and not one to make idle, uninformed comments. Ever. He's a stand up guy from my understanding who values standards and ethics. I still value to this day when he dealt personally with me over a few questions I had in my early weeks on the forum about the ridiculous rifts between profile people that tears the alternative media apart and weakens it. And why these people can't just get together and responsibly process it, I asked. So unhealthy. So much holding onto. Kind of reminds of what we are going through again.

I say all this objectively and from my own subjective space because I do not walk in anyone's shoes but my own. I am loudly human. Still trying to work out my own way of how I relate.

What has happened is not my business but the issues are not light. I am calling it for what it is too, just like Mike. In all ways you look it, What has gone down is immoral. I have only ever admired the contributions on this forum that Christine has made (Karelia too) though I never had any meaningful contact with them personally as others have had. But clearly (as I trust in what Paul has laid out) a sad but quite disturbing turn of events has occurred on the way to the forum, and Bill has been on some wild ride.

Dear Bill, I have grown to enjoy your more easy going nature on here. I loved that you took Hughie up to the Avalon Cairn with Mara. I lost him recently and it still moves me that part of the little fella made it to a mountain top in Ecquador, thanks to you :) I will gladly hold that forever.

What's between you and Christine, Bill, is big one but I am with you on holding firm . Absolutely. We cannot bury what's still unfinished. I get it. It's cleaner to process it with courage and grace and move through it. Name it and bring it forth so it can be eventually healed.

I'll say no more but send out a massive hug and love to you and of course to the Mod squad and to all the amazing people who pop their energies into this thread ...

[tessfreq]

I see this as very personal to many involved in this situation.
Personal to Bill
Personal to the members who donated money to support Bill’s work
Personal to the milabs who come here for support and information, and not to be used for some other persons personal experiments/agenda’s, even if it’s wrapped in love and light.
Personal to all the members who care about this amazing forum and are grateful to Bill for creating it.
Many are involved.

I commend the mods for determining that this needed to be public, for taking the time it took to make their decisions, and having the courage to be honest and open about the situation even with the unknown of how Avalon will react (has reacted) to this very difficult conversation.

I continue to be impressed with the integrity of Project Avalon.
Many thank you’s from the heart.

[RunningDeer]

Please close this thread. People can't help but project their feelings and experiences into this very personal and unique situation and the hurt is extending into the larger Avalon Family.
My wish is to close the thread but that’s because the tolerance to pain and suffering is low. Another part of me understands that we all process in different ways and tempos.

My biggest concern is not for the material lost (sorry Bill), but for the people that entrust another without the proper tools. And I don’t mean what one senses, feels and sees. Not when it comes to Milabs. There’s too many contradictions in behavior for me not to question who’s in the driver’s seat.

RunningDeer

[Carmody]

Once, I had a person use my finances to pay off an old business partner, in order to save their own money. I let it happen as the other person, whom I had no connection to, deserved some money for their prior efforts. I paid for it even though it was not my responsibility, and it has cost me dearly.

Things happen. In the end, no one gets out "alive".

When that time comes, you meet a door and a condition, a situation, if you will. Not much more than that of a train station, you might say (no need to panic). Which my name means. Literally: The first king, the chosen king, blood and body of the dead, I shelter and guard the door which all dead must pass (if they want to move on, that is). (hilariously, my horoscope also says I'd make a great 'professional greeter')

In the end, the veil of flesh is removed and one only answers to themselves. One can do their best in ignorance or do their best in awareness, it's a matter of personal choice and potential.

[Robin]

Despite my better judgment, I thought that I would express my own thoughts and feelings on the matter. I am friends with both of these wonderful people and talk with them on a regular basis. But I do not necessarily “take sides” in this affair, and instead I choose to spend a lot of my time with them because we seem to have a similar world-view when it comes to understanding the world.

I am very grateful to be a part of this forum, though admittedly, my Anarchist world-view doesn’t necessarily support how the forum is managed. I respect Bill and the Moderators and I accept this structure simply because we all are on the same team that is focused on creating a society built upon Truth and Freedom. This is a community-supported forum, and I recognize that my own monetary donations have been absent due to having no money, in which case I am thankful for my community members supporting those who are not as financially fortunate.

Some may make the argument that I and others who are on friendly terms with C and K are “accomplices” in such an affair. I have made my views clear to C about her action, as I do not condone such actions in a free society. But I also do not accept that her “true character” revolves around such deeds, and I actually understand what drives people to undergo such actions.

We are emotional creatures, and we respond to tense situations through our lizard brain. It is a survival instinct that has been usurped by the Dark Ones, who craft a society where we are constantly bombarded at all angles with situations that make us vulnerable and desperate.

If this particular incident involved two people who are Platonic friends, then I would have a serious issue with the person’s actions and I would be a responsible community member and do everything I could to make sure justice is served. But such is not the case. When two people enter a relationship and romantic love is involved, lines do blur when it comes to stuff like this. Love complicates our use of resources, and thanks to the contractual marital agreement our society has created, Bill’s loss is nowhere near a unique one. A society built around scarcity does not help the way two people come together to share in romantic love. It makes people vulnerable and desperate, and our emotions drive us to act on our survival instincts.

What C did was wrong in a way, but one cannot overlook the complicated mess that romantic love has on the sharing of emotions and resources. A marriage is based upon a sharing of intimate emotions and finances. If either of these two are out of whack, then the marriage is corrupted and such agreements become chaotic. In other words, if finances were stolen, then it is also important that the story of how EMOTIONS were stolen are understood as well (from both people involved). In a marriage, both emotions and finances are equal.

Because emotions are a personal thing, I do not ask B or C to share with everybody else...but at the same time it is the only way for the community (who supports PA financially) to fully understand why the Mods keep so many secrets from the people who keep the forum online.

Again…I am not taking sides. I prefer to stay out of this, but that doesn’t mean I am ignoring any wrong-doings or sticking my head in the sand. What I do prefer to do is to empathize and understand with what drives people to take actions that are otherwise immoral. The main reason that people rob banks and steal from an old lady’s purse is because they are vulnerable and desperate. They are vulnerable and desperate because of a terribly unfair society that was crafted by a dark elite to keep people in a constant state of fear and anxiety. Such a society was crafted to divide people, and the best way to create animosity between people is to make marriage incredibly difficult by making people emotionally deplete and financially unstable.

I choose to blame the dark elite of the world, but I also blame people for believing in authority. The best way to create a better society where people are not vulnerable and desperate is to focus on the roots of the problem. The roots of the problem lie in a paradigm based upon scarcity, and we need to get rid of the belief in authority, stop buying into the Gender Wars and Racial Wars and National Wars, and bring Free Energy into this world.

THAT is what I believe we should be focused on. It doesn’t mean we should ignore C’s action, BUT we need to understand that contractual obligations in marriage mean that both emotional AND financial obligations are met. I think that contractual marriage is a flawed one, as true love should NEVER be contractual.

"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root."
~Henry David Thoreau

[Fairy Friend]

Oddly, I had issues just before that time and approached Christine about them because that is who I felt comfortable to do so. Both concerning Project Avalon and personal issues. I felt huge confidences were betrayed. I got a 'don't care' attitude. So I left for a time. Trust once broken takes time to rebuild. I am glad that this has come forward. I am glad I missed out on a lot of the chaos that followed. I decided this wasn't the place I thought it was and it will still take me awhile. Trust issues I am still working through.

[Carmody]

Oddly, I had issues just before that time and approached Christine about them because that is who I felt comfortable to do so. Both concerning Project Avalon and personal issues. I felt huge confidences were betrayed. I got a 'don't care' attitude. So I left for a time. Trust once broken takes time to rebuild. I am glad that this has come forward. I am glad I missed out on a lot of the chaos that followed. I decided this wasn't the place I thought it was and it will still take me awhile. Trust issues I am still working through.

When attempting to help the world, the Buddhist thought on the matter, is 'first, do no harm'. and that involves fixing one's self first. To help the world and do no harm - one should strongly orient on self repair prior to such attempt.

The corollary of that is about not seeking help from others, with emphasis on meaning and boundary.

No mother, no father, no protector, no aids, no crutches, no clan, no recipe to be followed, no lies the body tells you...... just self and self repair. Get on with it and find a way to gently fix the self. To learn the pathways to a better form of self organization as a being in a state of change and growth. Essentially, to seek help from others in the fixing of the self is to find one moving down non functional pathways. Sometimes those paths must be taken in order for them to be seen as ultimately non-functional... and even in that, they bear some form of value.

The value in seeking help from others is more the idea of sharing inner moments in a 3D reality form, a communication, if you will. A 'reality check'.

As a wise friend once said to me, to puke it up on the floor between the two of you, and take a stick and poke among the spew and find the functional and real bits, and consider dismissing the stinky acidic remains.

For in the end, it's all on you.

[Delight]

Please explain the choice to disclose the Personal betrayal because of the Milab issue?
If it were just a personal betrayal, we'd surely have taken a different path.

The path that victims of systemic abuse travel is a difficult one. We help each other, whether we are aware of being such a victim our self or not, by sharing information and experiences that may help a little to light the way for others, and to warn of potential dangers.

This response is from Paul but must be the zeitgeist of the mod team and therefore the inner sanctum's spirit of the forum???

I know form personal experience that "money" and sex, power, control and major emotional triggers go along with intimacy.
That there be a serious break down after break up issue between two humans who married and separated is very familiar.
Passionate romantic love can lead to insanity. I feel empathy for loss that Bill suffered but this "kind" of situation has its "laws"and theft is relative to what each believed was invested and suffered and lost.

There is the perverse way that people react when they feel they were shafted..... "Which came first the betrayal (of one kind) or the betrayal of another when "love" turns to "hate"?

My concern is that I may not subscribe to the larger purpose of PA. I do not believe in victims and more and more this isle seems to be celebrating poverty here.
I am signing off because I don't care about what might have happened to me on the way but what I choose to take on now.

I feel very confident in every single human in this regard. If one chooses to be playing victim, rescuer, perpetrator, that makes no difference as to their true state. Playing might be self deluding but delusion is not reality.

Is this thread intended to persuade my feelings? Cause me to send money?

All of us are behind the computer keyboard as avatars but we have real lives with real coffee, real relationships and real challenges.
I came to PA and enjoyed and researching, investigating sharing my passion for ideas and found many.
Unlike some, I do not believe the principles that were picked up and stamped with labels, "taught" BUT NOT LIVED are less powerful because people misconstrue them.
I wish all well on their way to empowerment.

I do not make light of THE LOSS and I wish Bill well and finances restored.

[Flash]

This is disgusting Carmody but up to the point.:bad:




Oddly, I had issues just before that time and approached Christine about them because that is who I felt comfortable to do so. Both concerning Project Avalon and personal issues. I felt huge confidences were betrayed. I got a 'don't care' attitude. So I left for a time. Trust once broken takes time to rebuild. I am glad that this has come forward. I am glad I missed out on a lot of the chaos that followed. I decided this wasn't the place I thought it was and it will still take me awhile. Trust issues I am still working through.

When attempting to help the world, the Buddhist thought on the matter, is 'first, do no harm'. and that involves fixing one's self first. To help the world and do no harm - one should strongly orient on self repair prior to such attempt.

The corollary of that is about not seeking help from others, with emphasis on meaning and boundary.

No mother, no father, no protector, no aids, no crutches, no clan, no recipe to be followed, no lies the body tells you...... just self and self repair. Get on with it and find a way to gently fix the self. To learn the pathways to a better form of self organization as a being in a state of change and growth. Essentially, to seek help from others in the fixing of the self is to find one moving down non functional pathways. Sometimes those paths mus be taken in order for them to be seen as ultimately non-functional... and even in that, they bear some form of value.

The value in seeking help from others is more the idea of sharing inner moments in a 3D reality form, a communication, if you will. A 'reality check'.

As a wise friend once said to me, to puke it up on the floor between the two of you, and take a stick and poke among the spew and find the functional and real bits, and consider dismissing the stinky acidic remains.

For in the end, it's all on you.

[ThePythonicCow]

As I might have mentioned already, this matter, the one that deserves public discussion, is not really about Bill's private affairs, but rather about Avalon withdrawing its implicit endorsement of whatever counseling work with systemically abused clients in which Christine and karelia might be engaging.

[Matthew]

edit: just saw this in the post above


As I might have mentioned already, this matter, the one that deserves public discussion, is not really about Bill's private affairs, but rather about Avalon withdrawing its implicit endorsement of whatever counseling work with systemically abused clients in which Christine and karelia might be engaging.

So I take back what I'm about to say!

*original post starts here*
Bill is one of the communities resources not the other way round. It's us supporting us, investment into the future of THIS community. It's not something she helped Bill earn it's our group/movement supporting our group/movement. Moralistically it's more like money in a financial trust than earnings. So unless 'C' sees it like this I suggest she has a sloppy sense of boundries. I would like to be incorrect or proved wrong.

Taking of a lovers inheritance gold is also moralistically dodgy, because the taker did not help Bill get that wealth in any shape or form, it was an inheritance.

I currently believe this 'C' owes Project Avalon an apology and Bill and apology. I'm guessing they don't feel they need to do either. Again I hope I'm guessing all the wrong things here.

[Nasu]

Oh dear, a lot of emotions running wild. A very wise old Italian lady once gave me some advice regarding a friend who had stabbed me in the back, metaphorically, I wanted to remain loyal because of the good times we had spent together but was conflicted by their last behaviors..

So she says to me in broken English that if someone is kind to you all day long, goes out of their way for you, saves your life and cooks for you, if that person then kicks you in the head as you sleep that night, they are your enemy.. All the goodness is washed away by their badness..

Sometimes we make our own enemies, sometimes we make them through our friendships with others, either way they are polarizing, but no less real.. A world without enemies is a lovely fantasy, we either know who our enemies are or we don't, but we all have them none the less.

For my part, I am sending healing vibes to Bill, I've picked my side, I hope he finds the opportunity that is always hidden inside horrid moments such as this. Healing vibes Bill...x.... N

[betoobig]

Just guessing but, could all this have been an indirect attack to Bill. As Bill is very well protected, was not possible a direct attack, so they attacked him through another person or persons ... and now the attack is reaching the forum, as it is one of Bill´s extremities....a prolongation.
Sending enormous love/healling through the forum and members, to Bill , moderators and Everyone involved. Amateur healling but with all my heart.
All is well, we are all here.
What an adventure Bill!! Away of the cameras. Life is but a big surprise.
Juan

[Skyhaven]

Edit: *deleted post* tired of making statements on these matters

[PathWalker]

I personnally think this thread should be closed too before creating further damages.
Me, too.....

Me, too.
With blessings for healing and recovery to Bill.
Leadership is required here.
With hope and determination this drama will strengthen you.

[araucaria]

If anyone feels that this thread is in danger of causing damage, let them write down their thoughts from their limited perspective and then maybe refrain from posting them, as I am doing now. I have just one thought left, an important one I feel, and an attempt to explain to my own satisfaction how the core issue of non-professional healing relates to the breakup – not the private affair, but the public episode in the wake of Christine’s Corey Goode “interview”.

What little I have heard of that conversation fell way short of a professional interviewing technique such as Bill-the-journalist would have at least approximated, and even further short of the professional therapist’s likely approach. The danger of adopting the healer stance with any negative experiencer rather than keeping the necessary distance from both the messenger and the message is actually spelt out very clearly by Corey himself; Christine hears him but fails to heed him and apply the lesson to her own situation. This happens at the 18-minute mark of the first interview, which is as far as I would go just now (I once heard the first 40 minutes of the tape, but this is the first time I’ve actually listened, and this is why).
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?66018-A-major-new-interview-with-a-Project-Avalon-Whistleblower--Questions-for-GoodETxSG-&p=894184&viewfull=1#post894184
Regarding reptilians and (mantis-type) insectoids, Corey says this:

I don’t want to talk about them, visualize them, or anything. You bring them into your consciousness, you bring yourself into theirs. So don’t become a beacon. Don’t set yourself up as a conscious beacon.
He goes on to talk about people who have the ego to believe they have the strength or protection to override this ground rule when they probably don’t. There are places where some fear to tread, as there is a price to pay for rushing in.

The difficulty even for the professional therapist is maintaining a sufficient level of neutrality and studied disbelief that is not incompatible with doing the research at all. If you are too interested, you are biased and the wrong person for the job; if you are too uninterested for whatever reason, you won’t be doing it anyway.

But there is another difficulty. Supposing we are dealing with intruders from an alternative dimension. They are not supposed to be here. Acknowledging their presence almost amounts to tolerating their presence; and so does denying it. This is because to conceive a problem is to create it. So, even if I say I don’t believe in reptilians, I have already conceptualized and named something I consider non-existent. It is rather like asking someone “When are you going to stop beating your wife?” The one presupposes, along with the existence of a wife, the existence of a beaten wife; with the other, the non-existent reptilians have one non-existent foot in the door. On the other hand, ignoring them is seen as culpably negligent, and increasingly harder anyway owing to the increased frequency of reports and their increasing foot in the door materiality. In such an instance, neither disclosure nor non-disclosure is a workable solution to the problem.

The problem is infectious, because it spreads from those affected to those not affected, while those without the problem are told they are asleep. Take another example: Carl Sagan’s Dragon in the Garage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Demon-Haunted_World (note: quoting Sagan on this does not amount to a blanket acceptance of everything the guy stands for). If you are going to convince me that something like a physically totally undetectable dragon actually exists, then I am going to have to learn some new tricks outside of physicality. But if what you describe to me sounds like a monster, then I won’t want to learn them, even though they might be very valuable to master. That basically is the rationale behind mind control as part of the controllers’ agenda: one is scared off learning highly useful spiritual techniques by imaginary monsters barring the way. Conversely, defeating that controllers’ agenda is gradually being achieved by those increasing numbers who have developed the spiritual techniques enough to see those monsters for what they are: figments of the imagination.

So what do we do with the experiencers who have witnessed such monsters at close quarters going through their entire repertoire of monstrous deeds to the point of actually interfering with their physicality? We obviously cannot tell them they are crazy, which is all too often what they will hear. And yet that is not so very far off the mark: a subject of mind control is by definition not of sound mind in the normal independent meaning of the word. But neither should we be listening with interest to every detail they come up with as if it were an important addition to our body of knowledge on the subject. That would be like believing in the dragon in the garage or listening to a mental patient who thinks he is Napoleon recounting his Russian campaign.

This is where I feel Christine and Karelia have fallen short, albeit from the best of motives; indeed we all are falling short from the best of motives. The only way to deal with such monsters is total disregard for their putative existence, which in turn means treating experiencers not as whistleblowers with an incredibly important message to impart to humanity but as sufferers in need of gentle nursing. They do have an incredibly important message, but as described above, it has nothing to do with the content of their experience.

[Sidney]

I have not posted to this forum in a very long period for personal reasons. But I simply cannot keep quiet regarding this issue.
Simply put. In divorce, nothing is EVER fair, nor equal. There are two sides to every story. With regards to monetary property(including ownership and/or control of an internet forum,....... before, during, and after a marriage and divorce, the grey area far outweighs the black and white. The forum members have no way of knowing all the intimate details of the marriage nor divorce, and it is my personal belief, that the emphasis on the word "intimate" should be considered.

All of this drama unfolded many months ago, and appeared to have been put to rest. Opening up these wounds for exposure at this point in time, being many months passing, and being the holiday season, IMO reflects poor taste, and disregard of fairness to those parties that are banned from the ability to publicly defend themselves(here).

I am not choosing sides. I am stating, my view of this, as an outsider looking in.

I live in a small gossipy town, and my divorce was judged by outsiders who knew not only nothing about me, but knew nothing about my personal circumstances. in short, my personal life, is none of their business, as the details of Bill and Christines personal life is none of anyone elses business.

I was financially devastated by my own divorce and in the end it was because I did not protect myself nor my assets as I should have. Lets all remember this in our personal lives. No marriage is immune.


The forum lives on. Bill lives on. Christine lives on. All three, scarred.

This whole thing reeks of a scandal, deliberately opened up, to spread negativity and unnecessary drama. That is not the true spirit of the purpose of a place like this and I am very much embarrassed for anyone who chooses to keep these energies flowing.

In the spirit of healing, I am wishing everyone here Love, and Peace, and positive energy.

[greybeard]

There is a saying.
"If people knew better they would do better"

That may or may not be appropriate to the thread.

Just one way of looking at decision making and the action following which reaps results---is-- if people were fully aware of the repercussions of their actions would they have done what ever they did?

In retrospect how many of us would have acted in a certain way if we were gifted to see every repercussion to self and all others.
Would we have acted the way we did?
Would we have done it differently?
Would we have done it at all?

Comes back to the opening statement.
"If people knew better they would do better"


Chris

[Bill Ryan]

All of this drama unfolded many months ago, and appeared to have been put to rest. Opening up these wounds for exposure at this point in time, being many months passing, and being the holiday season, IMO reflects poor taste, and disregard of fairness to those parties that are banned from the ability to publicly defend themselves(here).

Dear Sidney‚ good to hear from you, and my thanks to you for contributing here.

What can be seen in some areas on this thread is — understandably — that different members will naturally pick out those aspects of a complex backstory, and because of personal identification, assume that those are the most important aspects for others also. That's always well-intentioned, but is also almost always a mistake.

This is nothing do do with a relationship break-up. And, I'm far from 'scarred'. Those who know me well will testify to that immediately. I'm actually in better shape now than I have been for years, with a great deal more energy, proactivity, balance and clarity. All is very well here. What's happened is in many ways a GOOD thing.

(My only regret in the entire affair — and this is true — is that I'd continued to trust Christine to the extent that the idea of changing the locks literally never once occurred to me. That's totally against my nature.

I'd assumed that if she wanted to collect anything, she'd have simply asked. That too, of course, is my own projection on to her... because that's what I'd have done myself. I tend to trust by default.)

To continue! The forum is in good shape, too, having withstood and handled a complex, prolonged and multifaceted attack that started pretty much last November, 2014. Although some of the roots and contributory factors were in place long before, it primarily began with Christine and Claudia's interview with John Lash (who himself is certainly demonically infected), that was never published. Please read here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?78630-John-Lash-s-Kalika-war-party&p=919179&viewfull=1#post919179) for a few of the details. That entire affair, and what ensured, is way beyond the scope of this thread.

And neither is this about any material loss. Dennis correctly pointed out here


Bill asked us not to mention the personal theft.

That's true. The mods took the decision to include that, and I stood back from the entire process. I was concerned that what might happen is what indeed has happened (in some instances) — though maybe almost unavoidably, unless members and visitors (please!) read REALLY carefully what's been posted prior, with great care, by a number of people.

Here we see the human condition, and it's maybe a bit of mirror:


Those who've been betrayed, see a story of betrayal.
Those who've lost friends, see a story of lost friendship.
Those who are divorced, see this as the end of a marriage.
Those who've been stolen from, see a story of a theft.
Those who've been scarred, see a story in which people are scarred.
Those who think love is absent, see a story in which no love is there.


But it's about none of those at all.

While those were mentioned (because the first 4 of those 6 things did happen), it's about

warning MILABS and other trauma victims about the deception of someone (even if they mean well) declaring themselves a "Healer" and Avalon appearing to sanction, by the "Healer's" association with Avalon, that these trauma victims are in good hands, safe hands, skilled hands. We felt it was - and is - critical to expose the character behind the mask.

[Snoweagle]

I fully support the decision by the moderators in publishing this information. I also wish this thread to remain open.

Deception and betrayal are the cornerstones in any good con. When that is mixed in personal relationships then a conflagration is ensured. As we see by this example.

Mankind has lost it's understanding with Gaia, our mother Earth, by the bastardising of Science by Economics. Healers, who embark with good intent to help others are soon caught in this trap as well. As for the relationship thang, well, comes with the territory, we all have tales to tell.

Christine and Karelia are just two of many out there promising absolution of some kind or another and it always astounded me the support they garnered from their muses. Whilst being lovey dovey helps the relaxation process it also increases susceptibility. People keep being sucked in. I have no axe to grind with either as I chose another path.

Thank you for the update Avalon, Moderators and Bill. I feel your handling of this sensitive and yet profound event has been impecable.

[Sidney]

All of this drama unfolded many months ago, and appeared to have been put to rest. Opening up these wounds for exposure at this point in time, being many months passing, and being the holiday season, IMO reflects poor taste, and disregard of fairness to those parties that are banned from the ability to publicly defend themselves(here).

Dear Sidney‚ good to hear from you, and my thanks to you for contributing here.

What can be seen in some areas on this thread is — understandably — that different members will naturally pick out those aspects of a complex backstory, and because of personal identification, assume that those are the most important aspects for others also. That's always well-intentioned, but is also almost always a mistake.

This is nothing do do with a relationship break-up. And, I'm far from 'scarred'. Those who know me well will testify to that immediately. I'm actually in better shape now than I have been for years, with a great deal more energy, proactivity, balance and clarity. All is very well here. What's happened is in many ways a GOOD thing.

(My only regret in the entire affair — and this is true — is that I'd continued to trust Christine to the extent that the idea of changing the locks literally never once occurred to me. That's totally against my nature.

I'd assumed that if she wanted to collect anything, she'd have simply asked. That too, of course, is my own projection on to her... because that's what I'd have done myself. I tend to trust by default.)

To continue! The forum is in good shape, too, having withstood and handled a complex, prolonged and multifaceted attack that started pretty much last November, 2014. Although some of the roots and contributory factors were in place long before, it primarily began with Christine and Claudia's interview with John Lash (who himself is certainly demonically infected), that was never published. Please read here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?78630-John-Lash-s-Kalika-war-party&p=919179&viewfull=1#post919179) for a few of the details. That entire affair, and what ensured, is way beyond the scope of this thread.

And neither is this about any material loss. Dennis correctly pointed out here


Bill asked us not to mention the personal theft.

That's true. The mods took the decision to include that, and I stood back from the entire process. I was concerned that what might happen is what indeed has happened (in some instances) — though maybe almost unavoidably, unless members and visitors (please!) read REALLY carefully what has been posted prior, with great care, by a number of people.

Here we see the human condition, and it's maybe a bit of mirror:


Those who've been betrayed, see a story of betrayal.
Those who've lost friends, see a story of lost friendship.
Those who are divorced, see this as the end of a marriage.
Those who've been stolen from, see a story of a theft.
Those who have been scarred, see a story in which people are scarred.
Those who think love is absent, see a story in which no love is there.

But it's about none of those at all.

While those were mentioned (because the first 4 of those 6 things did happen), it's about
warning MILABS and other trauma victims about the deception of someone (even if they mean well) declaring themselves a "Healer" and Avalon appearing to sanction, by the "Healer's" association with Avalon, that these trauma victims are in good hands, safe hands, skilled hands. We felt it was - and is - critical to expose the character behind the mask.

Hi Bill, I want to say, that I am happy that you are fortunate enough to go through a personal event and not be scarred by it, however, I want to make clear that a scar in my opinion is not always a negative thing. it is a reminder of past things, that we can avoid in the future. But that is neither here nor there.
I guess, I viewed, that the true purpose of this thread (to warn of who and who not to trust), felt obscured by the insertion of somewhat of a "he said, she said" article of conversation, that might lead a reader to question the merit and/or intent of the original post. If someone is going to be publicly accused of theft of this magnitude, it is just a huge can of worms. And that goes for both parties, the accuser, and the accusee.

With relation to the Milab subject matter, well, I can only say, that any Milab, can not only not trust themselves completely, but should also be aware that ANYONE they confide in, COULD turn on them at any time, especially a spouse or counselor.

The characters behind the masks, can be anyone and anything. Like I said, months ago when SHTF around here, I think the message was out, that trust should never be taken for granted. We are all responsible for our own losses. Pointing the finger is as unflattering to the pointer, as it is to who the finger is pointed at. edit::: someone who does not steal something of monetary value, is just as able or likely to deceive. Credibility simply cannot be measured in this way, because you cannot put a price on spiritual values. Money and trust are two separate categories.

[AriG]

Due to huge time constraints, I haven't been able to keep up with this amazing forum as I would like, let alone the Machiavellian events that take place within, so I have absolutely no idea what has happened except to say that it appears that Bill and Christine have split and that she betrayed his trust. Bill, I am so sorry for any pain you have experienced and wish for you the manifestation of the reality that you desire. For Christine, may you release the fear that drove you to hurt the one you loved and the hope that you will take steps to remediate the damage that you have done (for your own spiritual well being)- "Physician Heal Thyself". In my personal journey I have observed that those who embrace leadership roles rather than seeing them as a burden, probably should not be followed. Leading requires sacrifice and to some degree, suffering, and certainly a sense of responsibility to those who choose to follow. Quite an undertaking. Not for the feint hearted (and yes, I meant feint, not faint). Blessings to you all! I really miss partaking here.

[eagle0027]

For what its worth....
In this situation i feel much compassion for Bill........HOWEVER....I am sure he and most who are part of this (his)site are very aware of,but as i and many have difficulty at times admitting that at some level we all know of or have created all that we are living.


In my interpretation of reality and karma(and there are many)with quite a few readings done have found much peace and personal responsibility in the fact that that i was probably not that nice of person in past lives.What i am percieving in this lifetime as many darn hard lessons make a lot more sence.When now faced with struggles with others this doesnt take long to come to mind.
I would be very interested in Bills explanation of why this has come to pass in his life when he is ready.
Interestingly as well... i am sure he ,being what i would percieve as a very sensitive person and being part of this 3d reality we live in has felt the height of pain equal to the depths of the most beautiful love imaginable.The price of being human???

Much love to Bill and all......Ed

[ThePythonicCow]

at some level we all know of or have created all that we are living.
The question of whether we create our reality, or our reality created us, is a false dichotomy, in my view.

It's a dichotomy that, in my usual tin-foil hat conspiracy nut job view, is being played on by those who would control us, just as race, religion, gender, nationality, and other apparent dichotomies are being played.

It is a dichotomy that is on abundant display in this thread.

In my view, life is multi-layered, with each layer energized by the ceaseless interplay of apparent opposites, forming the basic elements of higher layers. Half truths, denying the existence or worthiness of one of the opposites at one of those layers, may energize our discussions, but they confound our understanding.

[DeDukshyn]

... life is multi-layered, with each layer energized by the ceaseless interplay of apparent opposites, forming the basic elements of higher layers. .

A multi-dimensional yin yang interpretation? :)

Animated GIF deleted ... it was driving me nuts ... :)

[Bill Ryan]

A multi-dimensional yin yang interpretation? :)

Yep! As long as you please don't adopt it as your signature. :bigsmile:

:focus:

[eagle0027]

......so who or what creates your reality Paul????or created this situation for whom this thread is about???seems that really its a whole lot of drama surrounding two souls that no longer were to be together for whatever reason.And yea im not opposed to the idea of background mind control.
After a couple of marriages with much pain and drama it is evident that some human stupid part of us cant walk away without this ...pick an excuse...and there are millions from he kicked my dog to she screwed around on me.As well people around wheather it be kids friends karmic group or whatever all play into the bitterness that generally must take place...and why..so we never want each other in our lives again???because probably we chose to be learning with others???
I really dont know...just pray to god that the next person /love i meet will be free of such crazy for the rest of my days

As always...love and respect

[DeDukshyn]

There is a saying.
"If people knew better they would do better"

That may or may not be appropriate to the thread.

Just one way of looking at decision making and the action following which reaps results---is-- if people were fully aware of the repercussions of their actions would they have done what ever they did?

In retrospect how many of us would have acted in a certain way if we were gifted to see every repercussion to self and all others.
Would we have acted the way we did?
Would we have done it differently?
Would we have done it at all?

Comes back to the opening statement.
"If people knew better they would do better"


Chris

Another saying comes to mind ... "hurt people, hurt people" -- Wayne Dyer.

[DeDukshyn]

  
I read about all this a while back ... there is a post here on Avalon that explained this a few months ago ... so this didn't surprise me much. I was slightly surprised by the, what I deemed, slightly excessive explanation on it all. I'm not sure I would have started with that. I might have just closed their accounts. I did notice Karelia appeared to have been still posting relatively recently. Anyway, I wasn't close to either of the two, yet I did enjoy a few great exchanges on the forum with both, I don't have all the details, it's not personal to me, I'm not into drama, so I shall set my sights and sails for new adventures! Life goes on ...

[ThePythonicCow]

......so who or what creates your reality Paul????
My understanding of all the relevant self-organizing layers that interact with the layers forming me is limited, and my ability to articulate that understanding even more limited. It is well beyond my capacity, and perhaps well beyond the possible, to communicate it here.

[Bill Ryan]

"hurt people, hurt people" -- Wayne Dyer.

Yes, that's pure, simple wisdom, and the real thing, too. I earlier wrote (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?87179-Closing-the-Avalon-accounts-of-two-long-standing-members&p=1025450&viewfull=1#post1025450) that Sierra's heartfelt post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?87179-Closing-the-Avalon-accounts-of-two-long-standing-members&p=1025436&viewfull=1#post1025436) should be framed and hung on the wall. If it was my wall, this would go right next to it. :)

[DeDukshyn]

"hurt people, hurt people" -- Wayne Dyer.

Yes, that's pure, simple wisdom, and the real thing, too. I earlier wrote (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?87179-Closing-the-Avalon-accounts-of-two-long-standing-members&p=1025450&viewfull=1#post1025450) that Sierra's heartfelt post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?87179-Closing-the-Avalon-accounts-of-two-long-standing-members&p=1025436&viewfull=1#post1025436) should be framed and hung on the wall. If it was my wall, this would go right next to it. :)

It is something I have to remind myself often in life, and when one accepts it, it really does become this huge truth that changes perspective. Sometime our egos don't want it to be true, we want to feel justified in our resentment, or regret, or pain and sorrow, or whatever; we don't want to realize that fear, pain, negativity, is a communicable disease of the mind. Hurt wants to proliferate. It's up to us as individuals to stop it from spreading past ourselves as best we can. This has been my experiences at least.

[ThePythonicCow]

... life is multi-layered, with each layer energized by the ceaseless interplay of apparent opposites, forming the basic elements of higher layers. .

A multi-dimensional yin yang interpretation? :)

Animated GIF deleted ... it was driving me nuts ... :)

I thanked your post ... but only after you deleted the GIF :).

Little could you know, but your use of the word "multi-dimensional", rather than layers or levels, triggers one of my latent objections to the "new world philosophy" being pressed upon us.

Speaking of the 3rd, 4th, 5th, ... umpteenth dimensions as increasingly refined and esoteric realities, which leave the physical behind at some level (4, 5, 6 ... I don't know which) bugs me.

The multiple layers of existence in my view build on each other, as material objects build on molecules which build on atoms which build on sub-atomic particles. Each layer has its own principles of ordering, but cannot violate the principles of lower layers, and is subject to sometimes profound influence from higher layers. They all exist simultaneously in the same reality, with various dependencies and interactions between layers.

I prefer to use the word "dimension" in the way I used it while studying mathematics: "The least number of independent coordinates required to specify uniquely the points in a space."

I prefer to use the word "layer" or "level" for these partially ordered, self organizing, self perpetuating, persistently stable, internally dynamic, interacting, orderings.

It would not surprise my tin foil hat protected brain to learn that this misuse of the word "dimension" is a deliberate confusion by the bastards in power. Perhaps Miles Mathis (http://milesmathis.com/) would have more insight on this possibility.

I should cease however, before one of the forum moderators calls me out for being off topic.

(Actually, in my view, this is deeply on topic, for I find such fundamental philosophical confusions as one of the roots of our more prolonged and energized conflicts, such as this one,... but I doubt I can make that point successfully here.)

[Bill Ryan]

I should cease however, before one of the forum moderators calls me out for being off topic.


:)

:focus:

[eagle0027]

Thanx Paul...i well know how hard it is to convey ones thoughts beliefs context of meanings as well .It would take volumes to really articulate depths of beliefs.And even then it seems deep down there is a knowing of our intellect having been impared to keep us from really knowing

[Pam]

So at the end of the day, the reason these two women have had their accounts closed and one of them has publicly been called a thief is that there is deep concern that they are representing themselves as healers to Milab and other trauma victims and the staff at PA feels it is necessary to expose their character so that Milabs and severe trauma victims will be able to exercise a sort of "buyer beware" when seeking therapeutic help? There is no sarcasm in my question, I am just trying to figure this thing out.

thanks,
pam

[frodo13]

I don't usually comment on a lot of things on these pages. I just like to read other peoples stories and see how it relates to the world and my part in it. If a wrong is done to another person I truly believe what goes around comes around. Simple maybe but Karma is of your own making. I see so much in the world where if people were just honest and responsible for there own actions we would be much better off and closer to our ultimate reason for being here. It seems like the world is really moving towards a turning point of some kind with all the violence/war/ police misconduct and it seems to take its toll on our psyche. It would be nice and sweet to say forgive, but I say never forget because we are all responsible for our actions and it all evens out in the end. The universe has a way of equalizing it self. Sorry for the rambling. I hope we all learn from our mistakes and the forum continues to thrive and inform everyone connected to it. Later everyone.

[Hip Hipnotist]

So, I think I need to get out more often. I haven't experienced this much 'sea sickness' since the "Love Boat" days. Yes, that's how old I am. Actually older. And I don't mean 'sea sickness' in a sarcastic or demeaning manner. Many heartfelt, intelligent, thoughtful, emotional and well-crafted posts here. I mean 'sea sickness' as sort of a metaphor.

Play along for a moment and let's just say Project Avalon is the "S.S. Avalon" with 'Captain Bill' at the helm and a very well managed and distinguished gaggling of administrators/moderators, or 'crew' as to keep more in character. And as captain of the "S.S. Avalon" he, and he alone, if he so chooses, has the authority to 'cast overboard' ( again, just keeping in character ) any passenger, stow away, or crew member for that matter that would attempt to run the vessel in question aground! And as I see it 'the vessel' in question is Bill's life. Or a substantial part of it.

You know there was a time not so long ago that when you stole goods from a mate aboard a ship, forget about the captain himself that you'd be walkin' the plank -- blindfolded! It seems that in this instance the culprit, along with the 'booty' was able to get away aboard a life boat and make it to shore. The sharks will go without a meal -- this time.

There. How's that for a heartfelt, intelligent, thoughtful, emotional and well-crafted post?

Dramamine, anyone??

[SKIBADABOMSKI]

I'm indeed way off the mark here and have no idea of whats been happening recently so bear with me as I approach this situation with tenderness and care.

So Bill.. you was bonking Christine. Nice one.. she looked sweet.

Next time get an old Chinese lady that spits on the floor and coughs and sneezes without covering her face and would take a pee in a shopping center fountain and think nothing of it. Once you get passed her way of life and win her trust (about 10 years) she'd teach you things about spiritualism that would knock you for six.. and not $60,000.

:bigsmile:

[gripreaper]

but I asked for her side of the story of why she opened a safe, removed Bill's gold coins, closed the safe, and left the country

Good question. It does seem out of character that Christine would leave under the cover of darkness in such an abrupt fashion, after being Bill’s wife and having spent years of deep intimate and vulnerable communion. What did she find out that would compel her to take such an action? We will never know I am sure.


Her emails back to me were increasingly guarded and terse, but she did tell me that she took Bill's gold because - since they HAD been married

Ah, they were married. In other words they entered into a contract, most likely a common law contract, to create an entity known as Bill and Christine, and invite the state into their union and pool all of their assets and resources and build this new commercial entity under contract. That’s what it is Dennis, and I have no illusions about it and quite frankly I don’t understand why people do it, but I digress.

Most common law agreements are community, which means the new entity is 50/50 under any possible breach. I would need to see the pre nuptial agreements which excluded Bill’s purported separate estate assets from the common estate entity, signed by both parties prior to the nuptial contractual agreement in order to determine the validity and veracity of Bills claim of his separate estate.


If she had integrity but was confused about joint ownership of property, then of course she wouldn't mind it if Bill keeps her half of the Ecuador property, right?

Well, one could certainly do that, hire appraisers to determine the value of the estate, and probate the estate. One would need to do land appraisals, appraise capital improvements, tangibles, intangibles, personal effects, including all assets brought into the community and all assets created during the community, and be careful not to comingle other estates, partnerships, and agreements, and take great care not to encumber the property in Ecuador which is co-owned by other interested parties.

One could then file paperwork in the venue which has proper jurisdiction over the estate, and petition the court for an equitable distribution, making a determination as to the merits based on evidence presented. One could hire attorney’s, professional consultants, appraisers, to allegedly represent the interested parties, although we all know attorneys represent the interests of the state and their own.

One could easily spend 60 grand on such an estate evaluation and court proceedings, and the outcome would most likely be unfavorable to both parties, enriching the attorneys, the state, and no one else. This would most likely encumber the Ecuador property as well and disenfranchise the other partners.


I don't expect a notarized letter assigning her half of the Ecuador property to Bill to show up anytime soon.

Considering that this action, and the dissolution of the estate is most likely still pending, and Bill is in full possession of the balance of the estate assets in Ecuador, and has full beneficial use of the aforementioned assets, and Christine is in possession of some of the more liquid assets which are an undisclosed percentage of the total estate at this time, until there has been and equitable determination as to the value of the estate, and the estate has gone through probate, and the distribution of the assets has occurred, then it would be premature to make any kind of suppositions about the disposition of the assets, the estate, or who has equitable possession and how the assets are currently held.


Bill asked us not to mention the personal theft.

From my point of view, and mind you, I am not a lawyer or an attorney, so don’t take this as legal advice, but the value of the estate has not been determined and an equitable distribution is pending. Therefore, I am not in any position to make any determination that Christine is a thief, as that would be slander and premature. To impugn someone’s character in an open forum, while the estate is in probate and the disposition is pending, seems like a terrible thing to do in my estimation.

If one was seeking an equitable solution from the other party, it seems like suicide to openly slander that individual in an open forum.

Remember, whatever your feelings are, you DO NOT have all the facts. If you have seen the agreement which excludes the gold from the estate, then please share it. Christine is a human being and deserves the same respect that Bill promised to give her when they said their vows, to love, honor and cherish each other.

Oh, and I find the allocation somewhat disingenuous, that Christine and Karelia are “harvesting” souls from Avalon and using misguided healing techniques, based on their poor deceptive character, and you need to “protect” the Milab’s from them by closing their accounts which they have not used in over a year.

This whole thing stinks to high heaven.

[enfoldedblue]

After reading many of the comments and wondering whether to add to them or not my fingers, still unsure wether I had anything of value to add... started to type ... so here I go. There is no doubt that divorce brings out the absolute worst in people. As I child I witnessed my calm educated parents transform into insane, hateful vitriol filled individuals who became bent on destroying each other. Both were convinced they were angel/victim and it was all the others fault. So much pain and hurt!

Both parties felt the other had taken something precious and irreplaceable from the other.... but because this 'thing' was not material and could not be quantified ... the fight focused on finances. Perhaps there is an element of this here ... I have no idea.

I just hope that both parties can heal from the pain and loss caused by this rift and trust that the universe will balance things out as required. Bill you seem to handling this in a calm and collected fashion... kudos.

When I went through a divorce 9 years ago my father said to me ... "well it turns out the things that I thought were bad about your relationship ... are now boons ... you have no money and no kids." It's true ... it certainly made things easier.

Love to all involved... and respect to the mod team for all the work and consideration that must have gone into this decision.

[sandy]

Loyalty and Betrayal...beliefs that run deep and IMHO appear to be part and parcel of this misguided thread.

As much as the theme is protecting MILABS the rub indicates otherwise.

The crew is together on this one and single voices in the wilderness no matter how caring will not be heard due to being out numbered and the crew bolstering their position with one another again and again.

I do encourage you to get passed herd think and check your own personal agenda's individually. They are based in your emotional being and not your head. Had I a relationship with these individuals, I may feel betrayed, back stabbed, abandoned, duped, used, undervalued, and on and on. This may have happened to me more than once in this life time of which compounds each layer that is stacked and thus my agenda would really need to be addressed as to my ultimate action in taking care of myself first and foremost.

The story of protection for others is slimy at best! If this were really the case, then Avalon would and should have a long list of dubious characters that have been members proven to be of ill will and reputation, who have taken advantage of more than just the MILABS, since its inception...........

Some things you just can't rationalize away your feelings by the actions you take and you just have to experience the loss and grief otherwise the layers get higher as life goes on.

I wish the best outcome for each, who have been harmed by the loss of these relationships with each other. May the sound of music be heard and sung in your hearts always. :Music:

[ThePythonicCow]

Most common law agreements are community, which means the new entity is 50/50 under any possible breach.
I don't know the laws in Ecuador, but I have substantially more familiarity with the community property marriage laws in California than I'd like.

In California, by default, new money, whether income or debt, incurred during the marriage is 50/50, but assets held by the individual parties prior to the marriage remain by default their separate assets. (Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer nor any legal equivalent.)

That default applies only if both parties hire lawyers and make a court impose terms.

If they make anything resembling a reasonable agreement themselves, they can apply their own decisions, within broad discretion. Just because the marriage was created as a legal entity doesn't mean that the state solely determines the divorce terms. Only if the two parties can't agree on something (that doesn't appear to the judge granting the divorce to be taking excess advantage of one of the parties) do the state defined default terms apply.

The best way, in my view, to handle divorces is for the two parties to work together to agree to terms that are the reasonable best that they can do to be fair to both parties, and to then cooperate on minimizing the legal fees and the risk that a judge having a bad day imposes some other settlement.

Of course, couples capable of that degree of cooperation on a difficult and complicated matter aren't usually seeking divorce.

[ThePythonicCow]

Remember, whatever your feelings are, you DO NOT have all the facts.
Yes - remember that :).

[norman]

Remember, whatever your feelings are, you DO NOT have all the facts.
Yes - remember that :).

:)

Facts, what are those, Paul ?

I just sniff the wind, and make my own mind up .......


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/A_shot_of_a_white_tailed_prairie_dog_cynomys_leucurus_standing_up_on_hind_legs.jpg

[Mike]

Grip, Bill himself wholeheartedly confirmed Pauls original post, which used both the terms "theft" and "embezzlement". Do you think someone as detail oriented and meticulous and reputation conscious (and public!) as Bill would just clumsily and carelessly toss those words out there if he didnt first know the marriage laws in Ecuador??? He himself said it would be a pretty stupid thing to do, and I couldnt agree more. Do you think he's just arbitrarily making this sh!t up? For me, its not even a matter of whom to trust...It's what makes sense and what doesnt.

Christine has had plenty of time to defend herself against these accusations..right here on avalon. Her account has been open for quite some time now since this was made public. What a deafening silence she's made.

And even if her rationalization was that she'd keep the liquid assets while he kept the property, its a damn silly one. Maybe Bill was depending on using the money for car repairs, clothing, a cheese pizza, or just plain survival...WITHOUT HAVING TO SELL HIS BLOODY HOUSE FIRST. Does someone who takes 60 grand in coins - sans any communication at all - and leaves the country unannounced seem like an honest, trustworthy person to you?

Look, I KNOW how the donation theft went down, and it was damn sleazy and manipulative. It aint slander if it's true Grip.

Im not suggesting anyone blindly take sides here...or take any side at all. Im simply suggesting good ol fashioned common sense

[Limor Wolf]

Im not suggesting anyone blindly take sides here...or take any side at all. Im simply suggesting good ol fashioned common sense

Perheps the 'good ol' is not of service to us anymore, Mike. A simplistic thinking that relates to the surface only has never been in service for us in the first place, as beneath the surface participants and events takes place and steering of pots is done when consciousness is unaware

There are layers to every common sense

[Mike]

Im not suggesting anyone blindly take sides here...or take any side at all. Im simply suggesting good ol fashioned common sense

Perheps the 'good ol' is not of service to us anymore, Mike. A simplistic thinking that relates to the surface only has never been in service for us in the first place, as beneath the surface participants and events takes place and steering of pots is done when consciousness is unaware

There are layers to every common sense


Sure thing Limor.

But also let us not make something simple into something needlessly complex

[Limor Wolf]

Perheps the 'good ol' is not of service to us anymore, Mike. A simplistic thinking that relates to the surface only has never been in service for us in the first place, as beneath the surface participants and events takes place and steering of pots is done when consciousness is unaware

There are layers to every common sense


Sure thing Limor.

But also let us not make something simple into something needlessly complex

Agree, only if required

[Mike]

Sure thing Limor.

But also let us not make something simple into something needlessly complex

Only if required



Suit yourself;)

[Limor Wolf]

Agreed, only if required


Suit yourself;)

I kind of liked the bottomline Mantra from the Pele Report (Astrology) this week and will copy it here -


Like a captain sailing stormy seas,
I must stay awake and on course,
For anything comes and anything goes,
On this journey commissioned by Source.

"Well, as Churchill said: "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times." These times can be either, depending on how much you desire or resist the evolutionary impulses working through your unconscious soul. If you have been initiating growth and transformation of yourself and the expansion of global consciousness, then these can be rewarding times of breakthrough and transition when the results of your efforts bear fruit!



It may seem like an off topic thing, but perheps that's not the case at all

[transiten]

Personally I think this thread is one of the most important on Avalon ever because anything political/otherwordly-dimensional/and spiritual is personal so we should keep on watching our own shadow.

I'm absolutely convinced I have done unto others what I've experienced in my recent lifetime, that is i have been involved in black magic by free will or manipulation in former lifetimes and in this lifetime I have had to experience the other side of the coin by being decieved by a psycho-the-rapist and brainwashed by a meditation guru.

I also have done some things in this lifetime I'm not proud of out of "victim consciousness" and "now it has to be my turn"...Got Sun conj Kiron today, says:
A good day for admitting your weaknesses without condemning yourself altogether.

I'm still alive and hope I have developed a sense of who's to trust and not although I also lost some money to a "healer" recommended by someone on Avalon that now has made me never trust any healer I haven't met personally ever again, if any that is, don't think I need anyone else to heal me anymore.

[ulli]

Personally I think this thread is one of the most important on Avalon ever because anything political/otherwordly-dimensional/and spiritual is personal so we should keep on watching our own shadow. I'm absolutely convinced I have done unto others what I've experienced in my recent lifetime, that is i have been invovlved in black magic by free will or manipulation in former lifetimes and in this lifetime I have had to experience the other side of the coin by being decieved by a psycho-the-rapist and brainwashed by a meditation guru. I'm still alive and hope I have developed a sense of who's to trust and not although I also lost some money to a "healer" recommended by someone on Avalon that now has made me never trust any healer I haven't met personally ever again.


This is the bottom line, transiten, and I would like to emphasize every word you wrote.
Thank you.
And this is exactly why the moderators were so concerned, because they knew that people were getting hurt.

We all know by now that dark entities exist and that some of our bravest are constantly getting exposed.
And I want to make a distinction, too, between courage and recklessness, without judgement.

Courageous people know that there are pitfalls and dangers and are always on guard, while proceeding into the unknown. Reckless people are driven by faith.
Over-confident, totally relying on their knowledge that life will continue eternally where no fear of death ever enters.
I'm glad such people exist, as they often clear a path for those who come after them.
But, anyone who wishes to travel at their side and does not yet have such a high degree of faith might expose themselves to getting hurt, confused, and even traumatized.

So the choice is ours, either stay with Avalon, where we can be assured of a leadership who manage the journey with a sense of responsibility or we go on a wild adventurous ride with the other type of traveler.

It's just that when they advertise themselves as "healers" that things get unbalanced. If one is sick one might prefer to be transported in a well-equipped ambulance rather then ride on bare horseback up at the front row of the Charge of the Light Brigade.

And yes, the word therapist can then easily become the rapist.
Fritz Perls, the founder of Gestalt Therapy, called it "mind f**king".

If someone drinks water from a river where it enters the sea they can be sure that water is no longer 100% pure, the way it would be near the source, or spring.

Sorry for all the metaphors, I couldn't think of a better way of making my point.

[norman]

........And yes, the word therapist can then easily become the rapist......

Fritz Perls, the founder of Gestalt Therapy, called it "mind f**king".

......If someone drinks water from a river where it enters the sea they can be sure that water is no longer 100% pure,...




The issue here for me is a duality between head and heart.

I think we all know that "spirituality" in this wild and savage world we live in is a much miss used attempt at a definition.

Alchemy, is well known as a practice that tries to make one element of the earth into another. I think a lot about a spirtual alchemy that tries to make a heart orientated matter into a cerebrally orientated matter.

Is that good, or bad?..... I can't be sure, but my gut says it's a false effort and, at best, a waste of time.

That's my fundamental reason to be skeptical around anything intellectual that tries to define something spiritual, never mind something emotional or something emotionally reactive.

[ulli]

........And yes, the word therapist can then easily become the rapist......

Fritz Perls, the founder of Gestalt Therapy, called it "mind f**king".

......If someone drinks water from a river where it enters the sea they can be sure that water is no longer 100% pure,...




The issue here for me is a duality between head and heart.

I think we all know that "spirituality" in this wild and savage world we live in is a much miss used attempt at a definition.

Alchemy, is well known as a practice that tries to make one element of the earth into another. I think a lot about a spirtual alchemy that tries to make a heart orientated matter into a cerebrally orientated matter.

Is that good, or bad?..... I can't be sure, but my gut says it's a false effort and, at best, a waste of time.

That's my fundamental reason to be skeptical around anything intellectual that tries to define something spiritual, never mind something emotional or something emotionally reactive.

What's wrong with such attempts, Norman?
You'd have to do away then with all Internet forums, or class rooms, or most of literature.

Not saying that it's not a false effort, but that depends on the motive behind it.
Each and everything has two applications, one that works and another which other doesn't.
Formal education may train the mind, but is useless if compared to real life experience.
Yet I say we need all.
But always remembering context and consequence.

[Omni]

I'd also like to say I have encountered TIs(similar to MILABS) who paid Simon Parkes money to help them with their targeting. They said nothing happened to help them. I don't think Simon is a professional psychologist, and he does psychology stuff for money(or used to). I don't think he was called out too harshly though. A few may have but most people just didn't seem to care and kept buying everything his obviously sinister contacts say.

Sorry if I sound a little sour, it just really bothered me this man is charging innocent and victimized people money, when in reality he is not helping them in the slightest from what they said ...

I always kept my opinion about the remote healer Avalon group silent. Or any remote healer group for that matter. My opinion is remote healing by way of reiki isn't effective. I wouldn't turn to it if i had a life threatening illness thats for sure. It seems like new age controlled opposition mind control programs to me(I very well could be wrong though).

I've always respected those who attempt to do it, and with the right sponsorship someone may be able to actually remote heal someone with technology(I trust technology can heal cancer for example, but not some new age healer's mind from across the world). But when I think to myself "What would the cabal not want us to do" sitting there imagining healing people with your mind remotely might not quite be it...

[greybeard]

There is a saying.
"If people knew better they would do better"

That may or may not be appropriate to the thread.

Just one way of looking at decision making and the action following which reaps results---is-- if people were fully aware of the repercussions of their actions would they have done what ever they did?

In retrospect how many of us would have acted in a certain way if we were gifted to see every repercussion to self and all others.
Would we have acted the way we did?
Would we have done it differently?
Would we have done it at all?

Comes back to the opening statement.
"If people knew better they would do better"


Chris

When it is seen that people, in the context of "If people knew better they would do better", do as best they can--then unconditional love or at least forgiveness is possible for those hurt. No judgement, taking sides or condoning is necessary.

Ch

[norman]

........And yes, the word therapist can then easily become the rapist......

Fritz Perls, the founder of Gestalt Therapy, called it "mind f**king".

......If someone drinks water from a river where it enters the sea they can be sure that water is no longer 100% pure,...




The issue here for me is a duality between head and heart.

I think we all know that "spirituality" in this wild and savage world we live in is a much miss used attempt at a definition.

Alchemy, is well known as a practice that tries to make one element of the earth into another. I think a lot about a spirtual alchemy that tries to make a heart orientated matter into a cerebrally orientated matter.

Is that good, or bad?..... I can't be sure, but my gut says it's a false effort and, at best, a waste of time.

That's my fundamental reason to be skeptical around anything intellectual that tries to define something spiritual, never mind something emotional or something emotionally reactive.

What's wrong with such attempts, Norman?
You'd have to do away then with all Internet forums, or class rooms, or most of literature.

Not saying that it's not a false effort, but that depends on the motive behind it.
Each and everything has two applications, one that works and another which other doesn't.
Formal education may train the mind, but is useless if compared to real life experience.
Yet I say we need all.
But always remembering context and consequence.

ulli, I'd do away with classrooms and most of literature in a heart beat !

Internet forums are a slightly different kettle of spirits.

They are much more a case of being what you make them. They are potentially "live" communication. Taking them from where they are now to where they might get, is another thing. It's not so much the forums, it's the established 'rules' of how they are. We can't take the rules away, prematurely, they'd fall over a cliff. We can't script them either, they'd die.


You compare formal eduacation with real life. That's a big issue that needs deconstructing a long way down before we can extract much fresh and meaningful fodder for our talking heads to chew on. If you and I were having a comfortable natter in your living room I'm sure we'd get a long way down to it, too. Otherwise, I think my word typing and expressionless text talk are only going to get me in a hole my elders have often told me to stop digging in. ;)

[ulli]

I'd also like to say I have encountered TIs(similar to MILABS) who paid Simon Parkes money to help them with their targeting. They said nothing happened to help them. I don't think Simon is a professional psychologist, and he does psychology stuff for money(or used to). I don't think he was called out too harshly though. A few may have but most people just didn't seem to care and kept buying everything his obviously sinister contacts say.

Sorry if I sound a little sour, it just really bothered me this man is charging innocent and victimized people money, when in reality he is not helping them in the slightest from what they said ...

I always kept my opinion about the remote healer Avalon group silent. Or any remote healer group for that matter. My opinion is remote healing by way of reiki isn't effective. I wouldn't turn to it if i had a life threatening illness thats for sure. It seems like new age controlled opposition mind control programs to me(I very well could be wrong though).

I've always respected those who attempt to do it, and with the right sponsorship someone may be able to actually remote heal someone with technology(I trust technology can heal cancer for example, but not some new age healer's mind from across the world). But when I think to myself "What would the cabal not want us to do" sitting there imagining healing people with your mind remotely might not quite be it...

There is lots of evidence of quackery. But there is also a ton of witness testimony of amazingly successful recoveries, due to prayer groups. Group healing works better, in my view, than one individual healer, or Reiki.
I've spent decades trying to get to the bottom of these questions, and a certain amount of mystery remains.
My husband is a medical doctor who has seen sudden recoveries, before any medicine was even taken.
Some people are cured the moment they tell the universe they wish to get better.
But back to topic...which is about the self definition of this forum.
The moment anything becomes like an institution, and visible to the greater public,
more care must be given that things are done with the greatest care.

[ulli]

........And yes, the word therapist can then easily become the rapist......

Fritz Perls, the founder of Gestalt Therapy, called it "mind f**king".

......If someone drinks water from a river where it enters the sea they can be sure that water is no longer 100% pure,...




The issue here for me is a duality between head and heart.

I think we all know that "spirituality" in this wild and savage world we live in is a much miss used attempt at a definition.

Alchemy, is well known as a practice that tries to make one element of the earth into another. I think a lot about a spirtual alchemy that tries to make a heart orientated matter into a cerebrally orientated matter.

Is that good, or bad?..... I can't be sure, but my gut says it's a false effort and, at best, a waste of time.

That's my fundamental reason to be skeptical around anything intellectual that tries to define something spiritual, never mind something emotional or something emotionally reactive.

What's wrong with such attempts, Norman?
You'd have to do away then with all Internet forums, or class rooms, or most of literature.

Not saying that it's not a false effort, but that depends on the motive behind it.
Each and everything has two applications, one that works and another which other doesn't.
Formal education may train the mind, but is useless if compared to real life experience.
Yet I say we need all.
But always remembering context and consequence.

ulli, I'd do away with classrooms and most of literature in a heart beat !

Internet forums are a slightly different kettle of spirits.

They are much more a case of being what you make them. They are potentially "live" communication. Taking them from where they are now to where they might get, is another thing. It's not so much the forums, it's the established 'rules' of how they are. We can't take the rules away, prematurely, they'd fall over a cliff. We can't script them either, they'd die.


You compare formal eduacation with real life. That's a big issue that needs deconstructing a long way down before we can extract much fresh and meaningful fodder for our talking heads to chew on. If you and I were having a comfortable natter in your living room I'm sure we'd get a long way down to it, too. Otherwise, I think my word typing and expressionless text talk are only going to get me in a hole my elders have often told me to stop digging in. ;)

Things are speeding up, and I'm optimistic, on the whole. I'd also do away with classrooms and most literature, but I'm also against the idea of book burning. Plus I have really good memories of my old classrooms in the sixties, as we had some fabulous teachers, who I am still grateful to. Teaching is a noble profession, if done with heart.

[Jake]

Im so very honored to be a part of this comminity. I consider it a priveledge. :) People speaking from their hearts and souls is what this place is about.

We have all been honored by Christine and Klaudias presence and we have all gained from what light they brought with them. I am delighted that folks try and feel for Christine as they process this! I wouldn't expect any less from Avalon.

Id like to think that im ahead of the pack in processing this, because we've been having our hearts broken behind the scene for some time now. But the truth is that it hurts!

I feel ashamed! I lament having to tell another grown adult that it is not right to steal! I am a moderator, not a policeman. What Christine has done is far beyond the scope of this discussion forum! I lament having to say that!

When i was going through my divorce, i came home one day after she went to work and gathered a single dufflbag with shirts pants socks and underwear. (Yes, they were mine,, lol..) I didn't bother to know the laws... :( lo and behold, i was arrested and jailed and prosecuted for breaking and entering and theft!!! ???

So needless to say, (in my most humble opinion) closing Chistines Avalon account with an open discussion as to why,, IS honoring her.. Id never wish jail on someone, but that is where she would be if she lived where i do!!



Embezzling members donations is a crime too! We've banned folks for calling other members names.


Again, if getting banned from an internet discussion forum is her only backlash from her deeds then she made out like a bandit. Pun intended.


Not taking responsibility for ones actions and relying on others to apologies for you is not what i expected! I honestly expected her to come to her senses and make all of this right! If you would have told me a year ago that this would be the state of affairs for Christine, i would NOT have believed you.

She once gave me her definition of personal sovereignty... Watching this makes me feel quite sorry for her...


I have a wee light in my heart that is left on for you, Christine...




As far as MILABS... Nobody knows the damage that has been done!! I won't say anymore about that!



Thank you all for your respectful contributions to this discussion! I know it isn't easy.
Jake

[Marikins]

I

Bill, listen to me carefully. As a friend and a brother I am telling you this. This type of thread invites decay. The carcasses of Christine and Claudia's avatars have been laid out in public, inciting gossip and inviting the vultures to come out and pick at the remains. That's fine and all, but there are consequences to things like this. Building up the type of energy that is attracted to stuff like this is unwise. I'm not saying it was on purpose, but it is happening.
I disagree with your premise, vigorously.

Sometimes it is true, as you say, that when person A calls out person B for some misdeed, the real problem lies more with person A's inadequately processed anger.

But sometimes, it is more the other way. Sometimes B should be called out for their misdeeds.

One of the fundamental mechanisms essential to healthy communities is shaming those who have acted dishonorably. I do not accept principles that categorically reject the validity of any such shaming.

I stand firm on my right and duty to support healthy communities, including at times by shaming dishonorable acts.

This is really the crux of the matter, these two positions. Apart from any forum violations this seems to be a private matter best settled privately. Moderators enforce forum rules not morality. Theft is absolutely wrong but this is none of our business. Public shaming is throwing a carcass out and having the hyenas fall on it and then tear at each other.

[Hervé]

One thing which must be thoroughly understood and emphasized is that the disclosure of the "private matter" is given as an example of the underlying deception which occurred under the Project Avalon umbrella with respect to the ritual abuse and Milab communities. To any of the latter, it's also a "personal matter" to which any and all resonate to.

When such "personal matters" of deception reverberates to 100s, 1000s and more individuals, it becomes a matter of public interest.

[Innocent Warrior]

I've always respected those who attempt to do it, and with the right sponsorship someone may be able to actually remote heal someone with technology(I trust technology can heal cancer for example, but not some new age healer's mind from across the world). But when I think to myself "What would the cabal not want us to do" sitting there imagining healing people with your mind remotely might not quite be it...

I appreciate the sentiment of respect but would appreciate it more if you were to respect the fact that my belief in remote healing is not based on some "new age" belief, it is based on real world personal experience.

A few years ago, I healed a dying woman who had just been hit by a car. She had lost consciousness, stopped breathing, and her heart rate was faint and slow. I know I healed the woman because aside from the clear understanding of what was happening during the healing, I felt the energy flow from my crown, down my body, exit out my hips and then entered the dying woman. The energy flow was so powerful that my body swayed forward as it began to flow. Her eyes opened the moment the energy stopped flowing from my body. She was dying right there in front of me and I saved her life without laying a finger on her or using any technology whatsoever.

This is my personal experience, so it's only natural for you to doubt my account of the event, but please at least consider the fact that my beliefs have not been adopted from the philosophy of others, new age or otherwise. No, she was not on the other side of the world but surely you can see the validity of my belief (at least to me) and interest in remote healing. And Omni, remote healing is not done by "imagining healing people with your mind".

* * *

I have a diploma in social science, majoring in counselling. Even though I left uni in my final year and did not get my full bachelor, I could still professionally counsel people if I so desired. I have no desire to and the reason is because it is no longer my passion, and anyone who is seeking help from a professional deserves a therapist who is fully committed, among other qualities. I am not that person. I stand with the rest of the mod team in this action, not because of any personal hard feelings towards Christine or Karelia, but because in light of complaints and concerns from good people, beyond Avalon's walls, it is our responsibility to respond appropriately, to the best of our ability. This is what it is about, responsibility, just like it's my responsibility not to do the job I no longer feel I would do well.

[Limor Wolf]

One thing which must be thoroughly understood and emphasized is that the disclosure of the "private matter" is given as an example of the underlying deception which occurred under the Project Avalon umbrella with respect to the ritual abuse and Milab communities. To any of the latter, it's also a "personal matter" to which any and all resonate to.

When such "personal matters" of deception reverberates to 100s, 1000s and more individuals, it becomes a matter of public interest.

Hi Herve, I hope it's okay to share my view here.. I was fortunate to learn about unconditional love in Avalon, (both by Bill Ryan and Christine Anderson ), especially from observing them together and apart carrying this type of energy which was absent in my life as an example. to which I am most greateful beyond words (and only beginning to get the grasp of that understanding myself).

As someone who has unfortunately close connection to both titles above I can say that this highly complex subject may not deserve any pointing of fingers towards anyone (even though cautios warning is at place), when eliminating yourself from it, despite it's accuracy in some parts, as the umbrella of Avalon has itself (unintentionally so and in most benevolent ways) has fallen into the same claims it's making now (again, a complex subject, we are all learning every day..)

In my personal feelings, such statements may turn out to be somewhat irresponsible (please don't take this personally, I have deep appreciation for Bill and the team), again, done with the immense desire to help, understand, assist and go to the bottom of the phenomenon, and with sincere wish to protect these people... But at certain times, the results were not so much in alignment with this aim (though much did indeed serve this purpose), but therein lays the problem in making such declaration

Many blessings ~

Limor

[ThePythonicCow]

Moderators enforce forum rules not morality. Theft is absolutely wrong but this is none of our business.
When matters mostly just effect the forum you're right, just quietly maintaining forum order is the way to go.

When matters involve the private life of individual members, then privacy is the way to go.

However when matters pose risks to others outside the forum, using the forum as a springboard, then we have a moral obligation to publicly withdraw the forum's implied support of that activity.

[Limor Wolf]

Moderators enforce forum rules not morality. Theft is absolutely wrong but this is none of our business.
When matters mostly just effect the forum you're right, just quietly maintaining forum order is the way to go.

When matters involve the private life of individual members, then privacy is the way to go.

However when matters pose risks to others outside the forum, using the forum as a springboard, then we have a moral obligation to publicly withdraw the forum's implied support of that activity.

As a moral obligation to check our own tufts (As they say in Israel), perheps primarily so

[Finefeather]

One thing which must be thoroughly understood and emphasized is that the disclosure of the "private matter" is given as an example of the underlying deception which occurred under the Project Avalon umbrella with respect to the ritual abuse and Milab communities. To any of the latter, it's also a "personal matter" to which any and all resonate to.

When such "personal matters" of deception reverberates to 100s, 1000s and more individuals, it becomes a matter of public interest.

Hi Herve, I hope it's okay to share my view here.. I was fortunate to learn about unconditional love in Avalon, (both by Bill Ryan and Christine Anderson ), especially from observing them together and apart carrying this type of energy which was absent in my life as an example. to which I am most greateful beyond belief (and only beginning to get the grasp of that understanding myself).

As someone who has unfortunately close connection to both titles above I can say that this highly complex subject may not deserve any pointing of fingers towards anyone (even though cautios warning is at place) despite it's correctnes in some parts, as the umbrella of Avalon has itself (unintentionally so and in most benevolent ways) has fallen into the same claims it's making now (again, a complex subject, we are all learning every day)

In my personal feelings, such statements may turn out to be somewhat irresponsible (please don't take this personally, I have deep appreciation for Bill and the team), again, with the immense desire to help, understand, assist and go to the bottom of the phenomenon, and to sincerely protect those people... But at certain times, the results were not so much in aligment with this aim (though much did indeed serve this purpose), but therein lays the problem in making such declaration

Many blessings ~

Limor
Well said Limor, and thank you...

The problem is that unconditional love has lost it's meaning if it only applies when someone's life is in order... unconditional means unconditional... a word which is just too much to commit to for most.

[Bingo]

Paul, May we have a concrete example of the kind of harm to which you are referring? I've been interested in energy healing for quite a long time and have done a lot of work in reflexology, reiki, acupressure, etc. This is about balancing the body's energy so that it can heal itself. This can only create "harm" if someone truly has no idea what they are doing, and the harm is not usually serious. So, can we have some specifics? What type of work are these ladies doing that is dangerous to milab people and is there an example of harm created?

[Limor Wolf]

One thing which must be thoroughly understood and emphasized is that the disclosure of the "private matter" is given as an example of the underlying deception which occurred under the Project Avalon umbrella with respect to the ritual abuse and Milab communities. To any of the latter, it's also a "personal matter" to which any and all resonate to.

When such "personal matters" of deception reverberates to 100s, 1000s and more individuals, it becomes a matter of public interest.

Hi Herve, I hope it's okay to share my view here.. I was fortunate to learn about unconditional love in Avalon, (both by Bill Ryan and Christine Anderson ), especially from observing them together and apart carrying this type of energy which was absent in my life as an example. to which I am most greateful beyond belief (and only beginning to get the grasp of that understanding myself).

As someone who has unfortunately close connection to both titles above I can say that this highly complex subject may not deserve any pointing of fingers towards anyone (even though cautios warning is at place) despite it's correctnes in some parts, as the umbrella of Avalon has itself (unintentionally so and in most benevolent ways) has fallen into the same claims it's making now (again, a complex subject, we are all learning every day)

In my personal feelings, such statements may turn out to be somewhat irresponsible (please don't take this personally, I have deep appreciation for Bill and the team), again, with the immense desire to help, understand, assist and go to the bottom of the phenomenon, and to sincerely protect those people... But at certain times, the results were not so much in aligment with this aim (though much did indeed serve this purpose), but therein lays the problem in making such declaration

Many blessings ~

Limor
Well said Limor, and thank you...

The problem is that unconditional love has lost it's meaning if it only applies when someone's life is in order... unconditional means unconditional... a word which is just too much to commit to for most.

Thank you, I do not personally pretend to know much about this, Finefeather, I believe there are layers to unconditional love as well, sometimes what doesn't appear as love, actually is..

Eventually everyone want to do what's best, that says a lot in this beautiful dual planet's book

[Finefeather]

If you care to watch the beginning of this video you will hear Bill reciting a warrior creed… and it comes prior to a Christine interview… done seemingly when love was still in the air... unconditional love in place?... and all was well and what jumped out at me was this line:


I have no means… I make knowledge my means


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWTRk0ygqGk

So what puzzles me is what could really have happened between Bill and Christine if he suddenly has now thrown his self chosen creed out the door.

[transiten]

I

Bill, listen to me carefully. As a friend and a brother I am telling you this. This type of thread invites decay. The carcasses of Christine and Claudia's avatars have been laid out in public, inciting gossip and inviting the vultures to come out and pick at the remains. That's fine and all, but there are consequences to things like this. Building up the type of energy that is attracted to stuff like this is unwise. I'm not saying it was on purpose, but it is happening.
I disagree with your premise, vigorously.

Sometimes it is true, as you say, that when person A calls out person B for some misdeed, the real problem lies more with person A's inadequately processed anger.

But sometimes, it is more the other way. Sometimes B should be called out for their misdeeds.

One of the fundamental mechanisms essential to healthy communities is shaming those who have acted dishonorably. I do not accept principles that categorically reject the validity of any such shaming.

I stand firm on my right and duty to support healthy communities, including at times by shaming dishonorable acts.

This is really the crux of the matter, these two positions. Apart from any forum violations this seems to be a private matter best settled privately. Moderators enforce forum rules not morality. Theft is absolutely wrong but this is none of our business. Public shaming is throwing a carcass out and having the hyenas fall on it and then tear at each other.

What is your definition of "Forum violation" Marikins? Embezzling the donations from Avalon members is NOT A PRIVATE MATTER! I also confess I have not made any donation so far, maybe now will be the right time :idea:

[Jake]

If you care to watch the beginning of this video you will hear Bill reciting a warrior creed… and it comes prior to a Christine interview… done seemingly when love was still in the air... unconditional love in place?... and all was well and what jumped out at me was this line:


I have no means… I make knowledge my means


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWTRk0ygqGk

So what puzzles me is what could really have happened between Bill and Christine if he suddenly has now thrown his self chosen creed out the door.

Ray, with respect,, you are assuming too much. Love to you, brother.. You know i respect you and your perspective.

Jake

[Finefeather]

I believe there are layers to unconditional love as well, sometimes what doesn't appear as love, actually is

Eventually we all want to do what's best, that says a lot in this beautiful dual planet's book
That seems to be the usual stance we like to take when things get a little difficult to accept.
So many words have had their true meanings 'adjusted' simply because we cannot commit to reality... here comes another one :)

[ThePythonicCow]

Paul, May we have a concrete example of the kind of harm to which you are referring?
There is where it gets a bit more complicated.

I must respect the privacy of others who have provided us with credible and consistent reports. If I go into detail as to the kind of harm, past what's evident in my opening post on this thread regarding counseling of victims of systemic abuse, then I risk violating their confidentiality.

This was a major reason it took us the better part of a year to go public. The private matters between Christine and Bill were their private matters; that was clear to all of us.

But with a sufficient number and quality of such reports, over time, we decided we had to go public.

[Limor Wolf]

I believe there are layers to unconditional love as well, sometimes what doesn't appear as love, actually is

Eventually we all want to do what's best, that says a lot in this beautiful dual planet's book
That seems to be the usual stance we like to take when things get a little difficult to accept.
So many words have had their true meanings 'adjusted' simply because we cannot commit to reality... here comes another one :)

When things get a little difficult, we have the tendency to dive into making assumptions, and maybe the point here in this thread is for us to be a little careful with that :)

[transiten]

Personally I think this thread is one of the most important on Avalon ever because anything political/otherwordly-dimensional/and spiritual is personal so we should keep on watching our own shadow. I'm absolutely convinced I have done unto others what I've experienced in my recent lifetime, that is i have been invovlved in black magic by free will or manipulation in former lifetimes and in this lifetime I have had to experience the other side of the coin by being decieved by a psycho-the-rapist and brainwashed by a meditation guru. I'm still alive and hope I have developed a sense of who's to trust and not although I also lost some money to a "healer" recommended by someone on Avalon that now has made me never trust any healer I haven't met personally ever again.


This is the bottom line, transiten, and I would like to emphasize every word you wrote.
Thank you.
And this is exactly why the moderators were so concerned, because they knew that people were getting hurt.

We all know by now that dark entities exist and that some of our bravest are constantly getting exposed.
And I want to make a distinction, too, between courage and recklessness, without judgement.

Courageous people know that there are pitfalls and dangers and are always on guard, while proceeding into the unknown. Reckless people are driven by faith.
Over-confident, totally relying on their knowledge that life will continue eternally where no fear of death ever enters.
I'm glad such people exist, as they often clear a path for those who come after them.
But, anyone who wishes to travel at their side and does not yet have such a high degree of faith might expose themselves to getting hurt, confused, and even traumatized.

So the choice is ours, either stay with Avalon, where we can be assured of a leadership who manage the journey with a sense of responsibility or we go on a wild adventurous ride with the other type of traveler.

It's just that when they advertise themselves as "healers" that things get unbalanced. If one is sick one might prefer to be transported in a well-equipped ambulance rather then ride on bare horseback up at the front row of the Charge of the Light Brigade.

And yes, the word therapist can then easily become the rapist.
Fritz Perls, the founder of Gestalt Therapy, called it "mind f**king".

If someone drinks water from a river where it enters the sea they can be sure that water is no longer 100% pure, the way it would be near the source, or spring.

Sorry for all the metaphors, I couldn't think of a better way of making my point.

Like your metaphors ulli! :tea: I just want to be clear about that the "healer" was not a member of Avalon but recommended by an Avalon member, no blame on this last person. This happened when I was desperately seeking help for my Lyme that never seemed to go away. (I now have found 2 good therapists: one homeopath and one working with herbs)

[Valley]

I'm like Bill and not doing any (thanks) button pushing here on this thread... and I feel no need to pick any side over the other here. But I think because C's perspective/reasonings are not clearly known or shown here, it serves to make her look like a 'worse' person than she may actually be. It seems that something majorly emotional happened that triggered her into these seemingly senseless acts.

Perhaps B could fill us in on what led up to the 'robbery' and what reasons he may speculate on as to why she would do such things. It seems that there must have been at least some harsh words spoken or cheating perhaps. I'm just speculating here... but does he think this was her plan all along... to rob him blind at her first/best opportunity? Is this what she has done in previous affairs? Is this the kind of person she is or has been in the past?... Or was this just a one-time 'golden opportunity' that she felt she couldn't pass up, while in a traumatized state of mind?

Any help here Mr B, or other 'insiders'? Just trying to understand her thinking/headspace at the time.

It feels strange even getting involved in these private affairs, but it was chosen to make all this public here, and it's the 'talk of the town' right now so I'm just 'pitching in' and following the 'breadcrumbs', trying to make sense of it all and see a more complete picture.

Glad to hear/see that you're taking this all in stride Bill and faring well. We all must move on... together.:raining::violin::caked::phone::flower::heart::cheers:

Bless...

[ThePythonicCow]

Perhaps B could fill us in on what led up to the 'robbery' and what reasons he may speculate on as to why she would do such things.
I doubt you'll be reading that in this forum, Valley. That's his and Christine's business.

The focus of myself and the other moderators is the well being of this forum, its members, and others in the world who might benefit from our cautionary message.

[3(C)+me]

This tread should as all threads run it's course.
Several suggestions were made to close this thread, why?
It's a touchy subject, indirectly about Bill, about relationships and breakups, about healers, which it seems get close to home with all of us.
But why close?
Because it seems some people are not confortable with conflict.
This thread could run off the rails at any second because of the highly charged subject but
it doesn't,
gets close but not quite.
Life without some conflict would to me be boring, but people hide from it and do not just look it in the face and work it out and deal with all the uncomfortable emotions it brings up in us.
Which is why I like this tread because it comes close but not quite and that is why I like this forum so much.
Kudos to all.

[Delight]

If you care to watch the beginning of this video you will hear Bill reciting a warrior creed…
..........if he suddenly has now thrown his self chosen creed out the door.

Maybe the creed's declaration was heeded and produced by that mystery (our being and UNI's mind which is so much larger than we Think). We cannot perceive except by result AND what we believe we want, we may change after the fruits are eaten?



I have no parents:
I make the heaven and earth my parents.

I have no home:
I make awareness my home.

I have no life and death:
I make the tides of breathing my life and death.

I have no divine powers:
I make honesty my divine power.

I have no means:
I make understanding my means.

I have no secrets:
I make character my secret.

I have no body:
I make endurance my body.

I have no eyes:
I make the flash of lightening my eyes.

I have no ears:
I make sensibility my ears.

I have no limbs:
I make promptness my limbs.

I have no strategy:
I make "unshadowed by thought" my strategy.

I have no design:
I make "seizing opportunity by the forelock" my design.

I have no miracles:
I make right action my miracle.

I have no principles:
I make adaptability to all circumstances my principle.

I have no tactics:
I make emptiness and fullness my tactics.

I have no talent:
I make ready wit my talent.

I have no friends:
I make my mind my friend.

I have no enemy:
I make carelessness my enemy.

I have no armor:
I make benevolence and righteousness my armor.

I have no castle:
I make immovable mind my castle.

I have no sword:
I make absence of self my sword.

a warrior's creed - anonymous samurai song - 14th century

The warrior in this creed is bared to the bone. It is a creed completely pared to beyond minimum and comfort-less.
It seems like the desert, like parched lips, like a heart that has been wrung dry of any "luxury".
So poignant that we receive ALL we determine is ours.
If we have doubt, the doubt operates.

Did Bill forget what he asked to receive?
Was this a chance to test his truth...is he receiving understanding through losing his gold?

After reading what others have to say, I am still struck by my own take on the issue...that it is a micro-reflection of EVERY one's much larger issue....
What is the process manifesting this "world"
IMO, we cannot avoid the fact of a scaffold on which we hang our experience.

We build the city of our daily life.
In 3D/4D, we request and we receive by our own expectations.
We are experiencers of symbolic forms.
The issue is the mechanism of this how of 3D/4D physicality/mind and why we might want to make our creeds a more conscious process.

This creed may have been a one off declaration that Bill recited?
It could be his (present/past) life motto?
He could be celebrating a chance to prove its truth for him OR ditch it in the future.

Rather than seeing his experience as a random attack from a woman turned monster,
I prefer to see the results of (unconscious) contemplation from Bill and his partner.


The Artist as Healer of the World (http://www.awakeninthedream.com/wordpress/the-artist-as-healer-of-the-world/)
In alignment with their mythic identity as would-be hero or heroine, the artist (arche)typically has to wrestle with their inner “demons.” The artist’s inner demons are internalized, personalized reflections of the very same “demons” that are being played out collectively on the world stage.

Like all of us, the artist suffers from the spirit of the age. Having permeable boundaries and being by nature highly empathic, sensitive and intuitive, an artist is able to introject into themselves and creatively “out-picture” and express what is happening both within themselves and the world in which they live. The artist’s inner process, like that of all of us, is a manifestation of the field around them, in which they are inseparably contained and of which they are an expression.

The “daemonic” is an archetypal, transpersonal energy, greater than the merely personal, which nonlocally pervades the entire field and can literally take us over, compelling us to unconsciously act it out so as to give shape and form to itself. The daemonic is a reflection of the part of ourselves that is split-off from itself, which is to say separated from our unity with all things.

This dissociated part of ourselves develops a seemingly quasi-independent, autonomous life and will of its own, appearing as an alien “other,” not under the control of the ego. In having it out with and coming to terms with the daemonic within themselves, the artist is able to translate these energies into something useful, both for themselves and the world around them. Encoded in the daemonic is everything we need for our self-realization, as if the daemonic is a compensation of the deeper unified and unifying field, offering us exactly what is required for us to wake up.

Anything we are not in conscious relationship with “possesses” us from behind, affecting us beneath our conscious awareness. If we don’t consciously relate with these split-off parts of ourselves, they constellate negatively and become “demonic,” in that they manifest, whether it be inwardly or outwardly, in a destructive manner.

If in our avoidance of consciously relating with these energies we allow ourselves to become unconsciously possessed by them, we become their unwitting minion, their agent of incarnation into our three dimensional world, creating destruction in life, whether individually, in our personal lives, or collectively, on the world stage. The artist, on the other hand, by creatively expressing and thereby liberating their experience, is able to extract from the daemonic a blessing which imbues their work with a corresponding numinous power, which in-fluences (and “in-flows” into) others.......Paul Levy

So as an artist, we can make conscious our intention for blessing by demonstration of blessed. My preference as an artist is is that I dispense with the austerity program: no needs for healing because I am HEALTH!

This is my creed .......
Where is my wealth? It is in my own energy displayed. It is always renewed.
Poverty is temporary lack of available know how. I know how. We know how.

All is well. I am here, not driven anywhere in desperation.
Short term relief at long term expense is a poor destination.
There is no problem, no reaction, no solution.

I am whole and relieved of pressure to move except by the choice of my spirit's calling.
Who are my beloveds? They are my friendly companions without guile or guilt and
learning to claim what is REALLY desired.

There is only one power and many expressions. We are here now to observe our own individual expression. We are artists of living becoming conscious of our art.

[Valley]

That's cool Paul... I respect everyone's views and actions here (though I may not always agree). I'm just sharing my views and asking some relevant questions.
Peace...

[Bill Ryan]

It's a touchy subject, indirectly about Bill, about relationships and breakups, about healers, which it seems get close to home with all of us.


Yes, really, really sensitive. The mods worked very hard at this for quite a while, after the initial external complaint was received.

It was that complaint that started this all off, and brought it all to a kind of tipping point. It was never about a relationship or a theft. Those were prior, and subsidiary.

It's really about healing and healers. Healing can sometimes be a very dangerous thing to do. Certainly if one is unqualified and inexperienced... no matter how well-meaning. MANY here will agree. Healing is just not for well-meaning amateurs.

Let's put it this way. One might bravely wade into a dangerous and/or demonic situation with all the best intentions in the world, courage in hand, David vs Goliath.

'David' doesn't always slay the giant. Sometimes, a healer might emerge from that, rather changed. A doctor or nurse treating a Smallpox or Ebola patient can easily become infected just through a tiny hole in their gloves.

Then, they can infect others. These things (whatever one might call them) jump from person to person like viruses. Small holes are all that's needed, sometimes.

Every experienced spiritual healer knows of good shamans who have since somehow turned 'black'. A real Darth Vader story, in some cases.

One close friend, who was suffering greatly at the time, once asked me to pray for them, and NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT try to intercede. They knew full well the serious dangers. They were asking for help, but were also trying to protect me and others. This kind of self-responsibility is always most valuable and is always to be respected and taken seriously.

[Robin]

Since the focus of the thread is about legitimate concerns about unqualified healers healing those who have been victimized in terrible ways, then I honestly agree with the intentions to create a thread voicing concerns for an individual with the intent to let people know what they are getting into. I fully support this as I think everybody has the right to know how their energy can possibly be affected by interacting with certain people, just like everybody deserves to know that there are energetic parasites in every corner of authority structures. ;)

What I constantly reinforce in everybody I come across is this. Every single being in this universe has the right to sell something, even if it poison. As long as the buyer knows it is poison one way or another, then it is fair game. At the same time, the buyer has every right to reject the poison and instead focus their energy on a different seller. We are all adults and can make decisions for ourselves on what to put into our bodies.

I think that C is a wonderful healer, and I don't want anyone to misconstrue my last statement with false opinions about her. BUT I will also say this. I sincerely believe that the very best healer one could go to is to somebody who has direct experience in the field. In other words:

An Alcoholic can get the best advice and sympathy from a recovering Alcoholic with years of sobriety and proven methods that work for them.

A victim of child abuse can get the best advice and sympathy from a past victim of child abuse with years of self-healing from the trauma and who has become successful in their endeavors.

A victim of MILAB can get the best advice and sympathy from a former victim of MILAB who has found a way to accept their past and create a better future for themselves.

Anybody who has gone to C or anybody else for healing has the option to go anywhere they want, but they chose who they chose. Perhaps they should take a look inwards and really feel what it is they need from another person. It is an incredibly terrible fate they have suffered, and they do need support from people who could better understand their trauma.

All healers have their specialties. Honestly, why people here seem to worship Carol Clarke as the very best psychic is beyond my comprehension, but everybody has the right to choose where they get their advice. I have listened to five different readings done by Carol on five different people, and she has pretty much said the exact same thing. She ALWAYS seems to say that the person has a soul either from the Pleiades, Sirius, and Orion. Is it a coincidence that these are the only three galaxy names that people seem to know, especially in the New Age scene? She also seems to ALWAYS say that the person had a very important past life as some kind of high priest in Ancient Egypt or something similar (I'm not joking).

Does this mean that I think it is wrong to pay money to get a Carol reading? Does this mean that she is a nasty person who can't tell if she is being accurate and is deceiving people? NO!!! Even if her readings are not fully accurate, she seems to bring people some sort of happiness. It is up to everybody to decide where to focus their energy. In my opinion, I think Carol's limited knowledge about the cosmos and Earth history interferes with her ability to give an accurate psychic reading on soul history. BUT, after listening to five different readings, I can tell that her soothing voice and her Feminine intuition allows her to heal, and I think she is far better at being able to interpret somebody's present personal life and give advice on how to work around their feelings.

Soooo....take from this what you will. I think C is a wonderful healer who also has her specialties. I understand concerns and I can see why people may be hesitant to get advice from somebody after this incident, but let's not throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater, yes?

Cheers. :)

[Delight]

why people here seem to worship Carol Clarke as the very best psychic is beyond my comprehension, but everybody has the right to choose where they get their advice. I have listened to five different readings done by Carol on five different people, and she has pretty much said the exact same thing. She ALWAYS seems to say that the person has a soul either from the Pleiades, Sirius, and Orion. Is it a coincidence that these are the only three galaxy names that people seem to know, especially in the New Age scene? She also seems to ALWAYS say that the person had a very important past life as some kind of high priest in Ancient Egypt or something similar (I'm not joking).

Funny but I had a reading from her that said NONE of the above. Noplace of origin, no personage in a past life, nothing there to say "new age". What she did say was relevant to me concerning a man who wished to speak to me. From what was said, I knew it was my husband as it was so detailed and specific.

I am not interested in past lives, off planet origin. She also affirmed that what I am interested in...manifestation technology..... is what I am interested in....hehe. Most people report positive results and validations. So, tell me, is it just possible she tells people what they "want" to hear because she is psychic?? Telempathy seems like the ability to know others insides. She is IMO telempathic.

[RunningDeer]

She ALWAYS seems to say that the person has a soul either from the Pleiades, Sirius, and Orion.

I had a reading with Carol Clarke, January, 2013. And nope, I’m not part of your ALWAYS seems to say. According to Ms. Clarke, I’m not from Pleiades, Sirius or Orion. What she did share matched what another unrelated person told me.


She also seems to ALWAYS say that the person had a very important past life as some kind of high priest in Ancient Egypt or something similar (I'm not joking).

Nope, again. Not a high priest and no Ancient Egypt connections.

Ha! Come to think of it, the only person I shared my reading with was Christine. Strange that that comes up.

A couple of points I noted on Carole Clark’s thread:


Some of what Carole said is what I've wanted to do. It's not something she could have known.

Sometimes, it's hard to see in ourselves the potential like someone that is not attached to an outcome. Carol's gift helps a lot of people to expand beyond the little selves.


Cheers back, :wave:
RunningDeer

:offtopic:

[Bill Ryan]

In my personal feelings, such statements may turn out to be somewhat irresponsible (please don't take this personally, I have deep appreciation for Bill and the team), again, done with the immense desire to help, understand, assist and go to the bottom of the phenomenon, and with sincere wish to protect these people... But at certain times, the results were not so much in alignment with this aim (though much did indeed serve this purpose), but therein lays the problem in making such declaration

Many blessings ~

Limor

I'll respond to this publicly... and even if I misread what Limor is referring to (but I don't think I am!), there's no harm in making a public statement in clarity.

There were, over time, two different private Milabs groups on the Avalon forum, non-public and non-searchable on Google or anywhere else. They had maybe a dozen members each, including myself (because I have one or two unusual stories to tell, too).

From one of those, former Avalon member Lysaur (now unsubscribed), had copied three very sensitive posts of mine, and posted them elsewhere in the net. He was evidently just targeting me, and no-one else was compromised. He was a member of one of those groups, and not the other. But as a precaution, we closed both groups for a fair period of time before re-opening them.

All we can do is be as vigilant as possible. It was Rachel (kudos! :star:) who spotted the smoking gun fingerprint that enabled the mole to be identified with certainty. Our vigilance extended to Lysaur having been recommended to us by a well-known and highly experienced Milabs researcher, not on the forum, whom everyone respected. It seemed safe... but in that instance, it was not. Everyone acted in good faith.

It's the 'good faith' bit that's really important here.

[AriG]

There were, over time, two different private Milabs groups on the Avalon forum, non-public and non-searchable on Google or anywhere else. They had maybe a dozen members each, including myself (because I have one or two unusual stories to tell, too).

.

So there are two Avalons? Maybe more? Secret societies within the greater society? Seems a little counter-intuitive to the mission, imho. Seems a little... dare I say it.. elitist and hierarchical. How does this differ from the Archons that permeate greater society at large?

[Hervé]

[...]
.. elitist and hierarchical. How does this differ from the Archons that permeate greater society at large?

About as elitist as geeks meeting to talk shop, away from non-geeks.

[Bill Ryan]

There were, over time, two different private Milabs groups on the Avalon forum, non-public and non-searchable on Google or anywhere else. They had maybe a dozen members each, including myself (because I have one or two unusual stories to tell, too).

So there are two Avalons? Maybe more? Secret societies within the greater society? Seems a little counter-intuitive to the mission, imho. Seems a little... dare I say it.. elitist and hierarchical. How does this differ from the Archons that permeate greater society at large?

No... just some discussions that are very personally sensitive, and which rightly shouldn't be visible to/ searchable by just anyone... or else no-one would say a word. It wouldn't feel safe enough.

There are one or two places where these groups hang out. Here (below) is one area. Some of these groups are by invitation only... do take a look. Many members might not know they're even there at all.


http://projectavalon.net/FAQ_images/Groups_tab.gif

http://projectavalon.net/FAQ_images/Groups_list.gif

[AriG]

[...]
.. elitist and hierarchical. How does this differ from the Archons that permeate greater society at large?

About as elitist as geeks meeting to talk shop, away from non-geeks.

I think the subject matter is a bit more deep than discussing the latest gadget. This is a subject of interest to many here and the majority have been left out of the conversation. That is not whistleblowing. That is secrecy and suppression. This is what the "rulers of the world" do to protect the little people from their perceived inability to handle the truth. This makes me very sad and I expected more from Avalon. Now had these "secret groups" existence been made public, but perhaps not the content until vetted, etc., that would be understandable. I really do not know what else to say except that I am deeply disappointed.

edit to add: :offtopic: Sorry to intervene. See ya'll later...

[Bill Ryan]

[...]
.. elitist and hierarchical. How does this differ from the Archons that permeate greater society at large?

About as elitist as geeks meeting to talk shop, away from non-geeks.

I think the subject matter is a bit more deep than discussing the latest gadget. This is a subject of interest to many here and the majority have been left out of the conversation. That is not whistleblowing. That is secrecy and suppression. This is what the "rulers of the world" do to protect the little people from their perceived inability to handle the truth. This makes me very sad and I expected more from Avalon. Now had these "secret groups" existence been made public, but perhaps not the content until vetted, etc., that would be understandable. I really do not know what else to say except that I am deeply disappointed.

edit to add: :offtopic: Sorry to intervene. See ya'll later...


Ari, you may have (understandably) misunderstood what the context is here.

If I invite you to my house to chat personally about (e.g.) a weird, disturbing dream you had last night, and what it might possibly mean, and whether or not it was an abduction experience (say) — you'd not want me to be recording it all to post on YouTube. You'd want it to be very private.

That's not elitism, or 'secrecy and suppression'... that's personal privacy, safety, and confidentiality, and most people are very glad that can be there sometimes if it ever feels like it's needed.

(Personal messages work that way, too! No-one can read anything you write to a friend here, and that's exactly as it should be.)

Does that help explain it a little better? :bearhug:

[RunningDeer]

This tread should as all threads run it's course. Several suggestions were made to close this thread, why?
I was one (of four?) that wanted the thread closed. After a bit of introspection, I noted I’m not comfortable with everyone at odds. It’s my own personal s***. Add to that, married and divorced twice, I understand the aftermath drama. I prefer to keep out of it.

Generally speaking the reason why I’m on the thread is because I’m in support of healing for Mylabs from qualified sources.

Kudos back,
RunningDeer

[Omni]

I've always respected those who attempt to do it, and with the right sponsorship someone may be able to actually remote heal someone with technology(I trust technology can heal cancer for example, but not some new age healer's mind from across the world). But when I think to myself "What would the cabal not want us to do" sitting there imagining healing people with your mind remotely might not quite be it...

I appreciate the sentiment of respect but would appreciate it more if you were to respect the fact that my belief in remote healing is not based on some "new age" belief, it is based on real world personal experience.

A few years ago, I healed a dying woman who had just been hit by a car. She had lost consciousness, stopped breathing, and her heart rate was faint and slow. I know I healed the woman because aside from the clear understanding of what was happening during the healing, I felt the energy flow from my crown, down my body, exit out my hips and then entered the dying woman. The energy flow was so powerful that my body swayed forward as it began to flow. Her eyes opened the moment the energy stopped flowing from my body. She was dying right there in front of me and I saved her life without laying a finger on her or using any technology whatsoever.

This is my personal experience, so it's only natural for you to doubt my account of the event, but please at least consider the fact that my beliefs have not been adopted from the philosophy of others, new age or otherwise. No, she was not on the other side of the world but surely you can see the validity of my belief (at least to me) and interest in remote healing. And Omni, remote healing is not done by "imagining healing people with your mind".

* * *

I have a diploma in social science, majoring in counselling. Even though I left uni in my final year and did not get my full bachelor, I could still professionally counsel people if I so desired. I have no desire to and the reason is because it is no longer my passion, and anyone who is seeking help from a professional deserves a therapist who is fully committed, among other qualities. I am not that person. I stand with the rest of the mod team in this action, not because of any personal hard feelings towards Christine or Karelia, but because in light of complaints and concerns from good people, beyond Avalon's walls, it is our responsibility to respond appropriately, to the best of our ability. This is what it is about, responsibility, just like it's my responsibility not to do the job I no longer feel I would do well.

Well if it was a mind control operation, there would probably be convincing healings of people based on technological illusion to get people to buy the cover(just like other stuff i have had experience in). I know nobody really wants to hear what technological illusions are up to, because nobody wants to hear they could be vulnerable to technological illusions... But they would be one of Avalon's top concerns if people had any connection to the reality of it(not saying reiki is tech illusion for sure, but other stuff is for sure). These technologies are highly abundant and fooling most conspiracy people who identify with new age concepts I'd say.

And yes Remote Healing is a facet of the new age IMO. Not everything in the new age is new, nor is everything false.

Like I said, maybe remote healing does work. But I've never experienced any real healing with remote healing that wasn't technology. I've never experienced someone able to heal me remotely. Like for example I am sick right now, how would the mechanics of the universe allow that sickness to be healed by someone's mind? I just don't buy it when looking at the mechanics needed for this to be real. That doesn't always mean it isn't real, but can be an indicator IMHO.

[AriG]

About as elitist as geeks meeting to talk shop, away from non-geeks.

I think the subject matter is a bit more deep than discussing the latest gadget. This is a subject of interest to many here and the majority have been left out of the conversation. That is not whistleblowing. That is secrecy and suppression. This is what the "rulers of the world" do to protect the little people from their perceived inability to handle the truth. This makes me very sad and I expected more from Avalon. Now had these "secret groups" existence been made public, but perhaps not the content until vetted, etc., that would be understandable. I really do not know what else to say except that I am deeply disappointed.

edit to add: :offtopic: Sorry to intervene. See ya'll later...


Ari, you may have (understandably) misunderstood what the context is here.

If I invite you to my house to chat personally about (e.g.) a weird, disturbing dream you had last night, and what it might possibly mean, and whether or not it was an abduction experience (say) — you'd not want me to be recording it all to post on YouTube. You'd want it to be very private.

That's not elitist, or 'secrecy and suppression'... that's privacy, safety, and confidentiality, and most people are very glad that can be there sometimes.

Does that help explain it a little better? :bearhug:

Understood. But if this is the case, why are you bringing up on the public forum? Sends the message that the rest of the class isn't quite "cool enough" to hang out with the "in crowd".

Not trying to stir the pot, just my initial reaction to reading that. As you stated, it is your living room. You can put the placecards wherever you wish. Best Wishes.

[Limor Wolf]

In my personal feelings, such statements may turn out to be somewhat irresponsible (please don't take this personally, I have deep appreciation for Bill and the team), again, done with the immense desire to help, understand, assist and go to the bottom of the phenomenon, and with sincere wish to protect these people... But at certain times, the results were not so much in alignment with this aim (though much did indeed serve this purpose), but therein lays the problem in making such declaration

Many blessings ~

Limor

I'll respond to this publicly... and even if I misread what Limor is referring to (but I don't think I am!), there's no harm in making a public statement in clarity.

There were, over time, two different private Milabs groups on the Avalon forum, non-public and non-searchable on Google or anywhere else. They had maybe a dozen members each, including myself (because I have one or two unusual stories to tell, too).

From one of those, former Avalon member Lysaur (now unsubscribed), had copied three very sensitive posts of mine, and posted them elsewhere in the net. He was evidently just targeting me, and no-one else was compromised. He was a member of one of those groups, and not the other. But as a precaution, we closed both groups for a fair period of time before re-opening them.

All we can do is be as vigilant as possible. It was Rachel (kudos! :star:) who spotted the smoking gun fingerprint that enabled the mole to be identified with certainty. Our vigilance extended to Lysaur having been recommended to us by a well-known and highly experienced Milabs researcher, not on the forum, whom everyone respected. It seemed safe... but in that instance, it was not. Everyone acted in good faith.

It's the 'good faith' bit that's really important here.


Originally posted by Bill Ryan : "even if I misread what Limor is referring to (but I don't think I am!)"
Hi Bill,

You did :)

I am sorry to hear about those instances and lack of confidentiality being breached, that is really sounds unfair

But, this is not quite what I meant

In order to protect and declare oneself as protector of Milabs, one must understand triggering and programming to a large degree and 'who does what to who' in a percise manner (relevant researchers do understand this quite well) that part seemed to be missing at certain times, were support was issued to the side who inflicted the triggering of the 'Milab' and the other was punished for their uncontrolable reaction. There were few instances were people who obviously experienced and expressed a great deal of pain due to their situation were expelled from the forum. What I am saying here is that without the ability 'to read between the lines' and understand all the nuances (which is really difficult), it may be somewhat challenging to spread the wings over another and declare a place as a 'safe zone' while others are pointed at as not meeting the same creterion.
I personally would have rather detail this in privet, even though I happened to write to you or to Paul at the time with regards to that.

Many good Blessings ~

Limor

[Bill Ryan]

Ari, you may have (understandably) misunderstood what the context is here.

If I invite you to my house to chat personally about (e.g.) a weird, disturbing dream you had last night, and what it might possibly mean, and whether or not it was an abduction experience (say) — you'd not want me to be recording it all to post on YouTube. You'd want it to be very private.

That's not elitist, or 'secrecy and suppression'... that's privacy, safety, and confidentiality, and most people are very glad that can be there sometimes.

Does that help explain it a little better? :bearhug:

Understood. But if this is the case, why are you bringing up on the public forum? Sends the message that the rest of the class isn't quite "cool enough" to hang out with the "in crowd".

Not trying to stir the pot, just my initial reaction to reading that. As you stated, it is your living room. You can put the placecards wherever you wish. Best Wishes.


Dear Ari, if I may say, this may be a sensitivity of yours... it's not about 'excluding anyone', or any kind of elitism, an 'in-crowd', or anyone being 'chosen'. CERTAINLY not about being 'cool'.

If you wanted to write to the mods to ask for a private group because you were (say) an ex-marine, and wanted to talk about the post-traumatic effects of killing people in warfare, but didn't want that to be public (for whatever good reasons — maybe because there were genuinely upsetting experiences you wanted to share and discuss) — we'd be doing our job to consider it, and might be able to help by putting you in touch with others who we knew had asked the same question.

Avalon's JOB (or one of them) is to help people connect with each other, in understanding and mutual support. Look at AngelEyes' remarkable, courageous thread about Cutting and Self-harm:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?86623-Cutting-Self-harm

Many people might have wanted to make that private. I would! But she didn't... and much kudos to her for her bravery. But if she'd wanted it to be very private, you and I have to agree, surely, that'd be really easy to understand.

Do read that thread, if you've not yet had a chance to. AngelEyes is suffering a very great deal, and (very publicly) is fighting with inner forces that are sometimes making her life almost unbearable.

This is in no way being 'cool'... it's someone who's a member here, begging for help and support. (And sometimes, many Milabs may agree that's what it feels like some days, as well.)

Does this help a little more?

[Sierra]

Limor,

Thank you. :bowing:

Love, Sierra

[AriG]

Understood. But if this is the case, why are you bringing up on the public forum? Sends the message that the rest of the class isn't quite "cool enough" to hang out with the "in crowd".

Not trying to stir the pot, just my initial reaction to reading that. As you stated, it is your living room. You can put the placecards wherever you wish. Best Wishes.


Dear Ari, if I may say, this may be a sensitivity of yours... it's not about 'excluding anyone', or any kind of elitism, an 'in-crowd', or anyone being 'chosen'. CERTAINLY not about being 'cool'.

If you wanted to write to the mods to ask for a private group because you were (say) an ex-marine, and wanted to talk about the post-traumatic effects of killing people in warfare, but didn't want that to be public (for whatever good reasons — maybe because there were genuinely upsetting experiences you wanted to share and discuss) — we'd be doing our job to consider it, and might be able to help by putting you in touch with others who we knew had asked the same question.

Avalon's JOB (or one of them) is to help people connect with each other, in understanding and mutual support. Look at AngelEyes' remarkable, courageous thread about Cutting and Self-harm:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?86623-Cutting-Self-harm

Many people might have wanted to make that private. I would! But she didn't... and much kudos to her for her bravery. But if she'd wanted it to be very private, you and I have to agree, surely, that'd be really easy to understand.

Does that help a little more?

It may be, but I think it is more about transparency and ability to trust. Certainly understand why an injured one would want confidentiality. Get that. It is just my opinion that you probably shouldn't be advertising the existence of these groups that exclude the other members. It lends one to the false impression that there are "behind the scenes machinations" taking place. Conjures up the same emotional responses we all have toward Black Projects, Secret Societies and their ilk. It made it look (at least to me), that "there is more to know, but we're not going to tell you". That's what I meant about the "in crowd". You intent was innocent, but it raised a flag. Sometimes, it seems to me, that the alternative media has its own little "inner circle". I just don't see how that differs from the PTB, at least on the surface. But hey, this is cyberspace. You "takes your chances" :) Thanks for the clarity and the last thing you need right now is me, a part timer, being an anarchist. Best Wishes!

edit to add: You are very 'cool', Bill Ryan. If I were on the market, as you now are, I would definitely be making a stab! :blushing:

[ErtheVessel]

Dear Paul and the moderation team - thank you for your integrity and dedication. I have rarely seen anything like it. The Avalon Forum is a unique refuge, and that is due to your heartfelt, diligent and intelligent dedication. I have learned in life that if something exists, it cannot be something else. In other words, for an apple to be an apple, it cannot be a pear. In that way, it has boundaries and a clear, distinct reality. The Avalon Forum is the Avalon Forum, it is not something else. In order for it to be the Avalon Forum, it has clear boundaries and a distinct reality. I imagine the job of the mods is to maintain the clarity and focus of the forum. You all are greatly appreciated for your mature understanding of that fact and for your ability to stay centered in spite of any ruckus that ensues.

And Bill, I am so glad to hear that you are doing well, and in fact better than you have been in years. Good for you. I understand that leadership is indeed a sacrifice, (as one other poster mentioned), and that your life becomes, more or less incidentally, a public spectacle. Thank you for your vision and dedication to this forum and its mission in spite of how trying I would imagine that could sometimes be. So far I have seen you respond with unfailing kindness when appropriate and firmness when appropriate. This is a hard balance to manage.

I am grateful for the intent of this thread, which was to alert others to the possible dangers in trusting specific people who have proven themselves to be untrustworthy. This is like an internal whistleblower event. In my view, that's an important part of what the Avalon Forum is all about. Thank you.

[ThePythonicCow]

Dear Paul and the moderation team - thank you for your integrity and dedication.
Thank-you for the kind words, ErtheVessel.

[TODD & NORA]

It is a bit of a chore keeping folks on the straight-n-narrow...keep up the great work!

[ThePythonicCow]

It is a bit of a chore keeping folks on the straight-n-narrow...keep up the great work!
Not a chore at all, sir. Engaging with a delightful diversity of talented and well informed colleagues -- the classic way to gain an education, and still the best.

[DeDukshyn]

It is a bit of a chore keeping folks on the straight-n-narrow...keep up the great work!
Not a chore at all, sir. Engaging with a delightful diversity of talented and well informed colleagues -- the classic way to gain an education, and still the best.

And it is because of this attitude and the obvious patience required to go with it, is why Paul (not to exclude others with this quality) has been quite an outstanding Admin and member here at Avalon, I must say.

[RunningDeer]

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/check-this.gif

And it is because of this attitude and the obvious patience required to go with it, is why Paul (not to exclude others with this quality) has been quite an outstanding Admin and member here at Avalon, I must say.

[transiten]

I will also confess that seeking help after having been deceived by the-rape-ist I told of in an earlier post and under the spell of the "Meditation guru" that brainwashed me I did some shadowy things thinking I was on the road of enlightenment and that I had the right to do this since my ego and hubris was triggered by the "guru" who knew exactly what buttons to push. I watch myself closely these days after the heavy prize I made myself pay for this trip to the underworld of Pluto.

Noone knows about this except my "higher self" that I see as my more spiritually evolved soulgroup and noone knowing me as a peace activist, fighting for the underdog, obsessed with justice and equality would have suspected me for doing this. It's not big crime but things I still feel ashamed of but have forgiven myself in perspective of my history.

[Jake]

My mother and sister consider themselves powerful esoteric healers. My sister just opened a website offering 'healing'. I feel it is worthwhile to clarify my understanding regarding 'healing'.

If i break a bone, i need it 'set' and properly treated by a physician.
If i need a heart replacement, i most certainly need a surgeon.
If i cut my skin, i need stitches.
If i contract ebola, i need to be quarantined and treated.

I would not go to an esoteric healer, sitting in front of a computer, logged into Skype! That is common sense, no?

A MILAB is a tortured person/soul. Someone who has been psychologically, physically, and spiritually TORTURED AND RUINED. Broken bones, broken souls, broken minds. They suffer from untold mind control modalities and have been experimented on by untold and unethical processes. They often have past life connections to their trauma that is exploited in unspeakable ways. They suffer memory loss, blockages from direct influence and through trauma. They have implants, both physical and mental that are preprogrammed to trigger and cause further detrimental and self-destructive behavior. They have terrifying memory fragments that cause them physical and emotional pain.

i could go on and on and on and on....

It DOES go on and on. Then there are victims of other types of systematic ritual abuse so downright evil that most folks don't believe it even happens.

These folks need their plight to be taken much more seriously!!!!!

I have a MILAB friend. I haven't seen him since his 'breach', he is completely ruined. I was with him when he was taken to Inpatient, (psych ward). I haven't seen or heard from him since then. His mom told me that they wont let her see him anymore, but the last time she was there he was sedated, being treated for biting off part of his tongue!

I sometimes imagine him being charged money from someone who claims they can heal him remotely over a feckin Skype session!!!!

My friend need ENTIRE TEAMS of doctors, both psychological and physical. My friend sits there and rocks back and forth and doesn't even realize it. When they came for him i got a sense of how detrimental his condition (s) are.

I digress. There is a lot of amazing work being done by lots of intuitive healers, and we are learning about our potentials as humans.

Ive seen too many 'healers' become infected with whatever it is they think they are healing. Like a nurse who gets a cold treating a patient... MILABS and ritual abuse victims (many times) are programmed/infected with unknown and dangerous triggers that infects the 'healer'.

That is what they are up against. That is what WE are up against!

If you think it is ethical to exhault yourself to a point where you are FURTHER EXPERIMENTING on these tortured souls then you are a fool!!!

I foresee a future where we have entire medical facilities that incorporates hard and soft healing modalities as well as the support for friends/family/community. I really do!!!

I can see the building blocks of such an endeavor. And it takes all of us.

Personal sovereignty includes empowering others as opposed to exhaulting yourself. I have turned folks away who were offering me cash for healing that was 'out of my lane'.. It would have been unethical to even consider it...

The MILAB/Ritual abuse victim is layered with different types of physical/mental/emotional/esoteric torture.

As well, they need layers of professional healing and support that cannot be achieved over a Skype session.. no offense...


I support a team effort as opposed to privately conjoling victims into your own private, self-declared healing experiments...


(they are worth much more than that)

Jake

[Carmody]

It may be, but I think it is more about transparency and ability to trust. Certainly understand why an injured one would want confidentiality. Get that. It is just my opinion that you probably shouldn't be advertising the existence of these groups that exclude the other members. It lends one to the false impression that there are "behind the scenes machinations" taking place. Conjures up the same emotional responses we all have toward Black Projects, Secret Societies and their ilk. It made it look (at least to me), that "there is more to know, but we're not going to tell you". That's what I meant about the "in crowd". You intent was innocent, but it raised a flag. Sometimes, it seems to me, that the alternative media has its own little "inner circle". I just don't see how that differs from the PTB, at least on the surface. But hey, this is cyberspace. You "takes your chances" :) Thanks for the clarity and the last thing you need right now is me, a part timer, being an anarchist. Best Wishes!

edit to add: You are very 'cool', Bill Ryan. If I were on the market, as you now are, I would definitely be making a stab! :blushing:

The reality is that such musing about secrecy and the rest you've gone on about.... as far as i can tell...are all in your mind and not in the minds of others. Seriously.

To not mention such things, can cause trip-ups at later dates, and then people throw out the secrecy crap and try to make it stick.

There is nothing to hide here, nothing to hide there, or wherever. People read magazines while in the lavatory. Big deal whoopee.....

Moderators discuss things among themselves. Big deal. Whatever. This is normal, not odd.

Seeming to keep the existence of the mundane and normal secret, would be a worse thing. It would be a point where a manipulator (on or off the forum), might be trying to create a semblance of a problem, trying to inflate and create a problem where none exists, an agitator... if you will.

[Mark]

I love you all, and you all know who you are, reading this, currently at PA or elsewhere. No matter where we all are now, here is where this all began. This time. My heart hurts, as it has for a while now. I watch and listen from a distance and know this is all for the best. The highest. No matter the side, no matter the outcome, there is no end. This is just another pause on the road. A gathering of the tribe with all of its expressions, to reconfigure interaction and expression. The connections are real, and lasting even if, sometimes, we wish they did not and even as we act to attempt to sever them. It will lead to even more branchings, continuing this journey in its lessons and implications for past and future. We are all together for a reason. Now. Even if we are not all here. No matter how it may look or how it may feel, we grow. And we all know this. To echo Jeffrey's earnest intent and love for all parties involved, I offer the following:


For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 1 Corinthians 13:12

This will be my only post on this topic. Blessings.

[Savannah]

I can’t help but notice a trend in how people in this forum and others react to conflict. There is generally a divergence between those who feel strongly about not expressing any anger or frustration toward other members and those that defend the right to do so. My perception is that perhaps the New Age meme of love everyone it’s your path to ascension may be behind some of it. I was just posting on a thread about NDE’s and referenced Cameron Day. He wrote “Why I’m no longer a Light Worker” about his thoughts on the New Age Movement , the following seems relevant here.

Universal Law & Defensive Force
In most New (c)Age doctrines, it is considered "unspiritual" or "unevolved" to even consider the use of defensive force. A good little new-ager is apparently supposed to let people and parasitic beings walk all over them, steal from them, drain their energy, manipulate / implant them, and harm them in any manner they choose. Not only that, but they should also suppress any "negative emotions" so that they will be basically "happy victims" of such abuses. This manipulative, deceptive "teaching" comes from the false-light, and nothing could be further from the real truth.The Prime Universal Law is very simple: All beings are Sovereign and have free will to express their creative urges in any way they choose, but no being has the right to violate and harm others. The corollary to that law is also very simple: Because all beings are Sovereign, they have the right to defend themselves from harm, using whatever level of force is necessary to stop the violation from occurring, even if it results in the destruction of the one inflicting the harm.
http://www.ascensionhelp.com/blog/2013/11/21/tell-the-lords-of-karma-that-you-are-sovereign-no-longer-a-lightworker-part-2/



I observed this happening when Bill was criticized for doubting Corey Goode and it played out in many of the early postings. Obviously I tend to take the stance that if I’m wronged I have right to defend myself and in the appropriate circumstance do something to stop it from happening to others. However I can say in the early 90’s when I was deep in the New Age meme I felt guilty over doing just that.
This thread to me does very much belong here. I appreciate being informed why a member is being removed. If I’m removed you all the right to know why, that effects why you may or may not decide to participate in this forum. I’m a psychologist that specializes in trauma, I can testify to the damage an untrained, albeit well-meaning person can do to a trauma experiencer. Anyone can be supportive and should be, but saying you can treat a person is whole different dimension.

[promezeus]

I would not go to an esoteric healer, sitting in front of a computer, logged into Skype! That is common sense, no?

jake et al........

Come on now, let's not start acting like the ptb who wants to license everything and everybody. Freedom and self responsibility have to come first and should not be overridden by any ptb. That is paramount. This thread was simply written so avalon could officially distance themselves from being seen as supporting ANY specific individuals involved in such endeavors. This is a very simple and necessary disclaimer . The Avalon Community WILL NOT BE USED........... Frankly I thought the rest of the disclaimer went a bit too far for my taste, but it's ok.

So NO, your statement is not common sense. If that's the reality you want to create, then fine, but dr. joe dispenza healed his multi fractured spine back to normal while lying in his bed doing visualizations, and he's currently doing workshops teaching people how to materialize objects out of thin air with only their mind, ok? He's teaching people that spontaneous remissions are nothing but mental or visualization technology. That may not fit with your common sense, but he's a neuro scientist who is documenting everything, so maybe his common sense is different from yours? :)

As far as christine et al, I myself nearly began healing sessions with her but backed out because it didn't feel right. WE all have to listen to our own feelings and take them seriously. There really is no other way as all other ways lead to disempowerment. The problem begins with our upbringing where we are prevented from the hard knocks of learning for ourselves. So like a hothouse plant, we are unable to withstand the rigors of the natural world since we never developed our innate instincts. However the solution is still the same as it was in childhood, the learning process just begins a little later and a little more bottom up nurturing is required, but this top down nonsense has to go.

[Fairy Friend]

So the lessons I get from this thread are,

Be wary of cons which can have many motivations from downright evil, to unwitting pawns that may be manipulated or victims themselves, to those with good intent but have been misled, to those who have taken on more than they know or can handle.

Also, the right expert for the right problem. Dentists and heart surgeons are both doctors but they are specialties. Or a more spiritual example, one can pray or send well wishes to say one possessed but excorcising a demon is different thing.

And know what your limitations are. I had a neighbor whose child was born with a heart that would not grow as his body did. So he required heart surgeries periodically in his life but the night before the heart surgeon was to perform surgery his dad died so he cancelled it immediately.

Or to run with another metaphor, don't do battle unless your Amor's on and your sword is sharpened, a horse is nice honestly and backup or an escape route or plan B might be necessary.

[Jake]

I would not go to an esoteric healer, sitting in front of a computer, logged into Skype! That is common sense, no?

jake et al........

Come on now, let's not start acting like the ptb who wants to license everything and everybody. Freedom and self responsibility have to come first and should not be overridden by any ptb. That is paramount. This thread was simply written so avalon could officially distance themselves from being seen as supporting ANY specific individuals involved in such endeavors. This is a very simple and necessary disclaimer . The Avalon Community WILL NOT BE USED........... Frankly I thought the rest of the disclaimer went a bit too far for my taste, but it's ok.

So NO, your statement is not common sense. If that's the reality you want to create, then fine, but dr. joe dispenza healed his multi fractured spine back to normal while lying in his bed doing visualizations, and he's currently doing workshops teaching people how to materialize objects out of thin air with only their mind, ok? He's teaching people that spontaneous remissions are nothing but mental or visualization technology. That may not fit with your common sense, but he's a neuro scientist who is documenting everything, so maybe his common sense is different from yours? :)

As far as christine et al, I myself nearly began healing sessions with her but backed out because it didn't feel right. WE all have to listen to our own feelings and take them seriously. There really is no other way as all other ways lead to disempowerment. The problem begins with our upbringing where we are prevented from the hard knocks of learning for ourselves. So like a hothouse plant, we are unable to withstand the rigors of the natural world since we never developed our innate instincts. However the solution is still the same as it was in childhood, the learning process just begins a little later and a little more bottom up nurturing is required, but this top down nonsense has to go.

Who said anything about the ptb? Im talking about the responsibility of a 'healer' and the approach to anomalous trauma, etc... And the responsibility of community to support the health of these people! I've been witness to amazing healing through visualization. Healing a hurt finger or broken back is quite different than what's at stake! Many times if one can tackle an inner demon, or past life trauma (for example) it can miraculously cure a physical ailment, as it's root cause is mental/emotional. I'm NOT against that.

What happens when something else altogether triggers, and the patient 'breaches' and begins reacting in uncontrollable ways? What does the healer do? Just stare at their Skype and hope for the best? ? Is there support for this person? Are their knowledgeable responsible medical professionals there? Because when this level of trauma manifests, there's absolutely nothing that you can do over a Skype session. What happens? Is the Skype healer going to take responsibility? What if the Skype healer tends to not take responsibility for their actions?

I don't actually expect you or anyone to have these answers. But i really would be impressed if folks to begin to consider it.

[sheme]

Hi Christine if any of my small Avalon contributions fell into your open hand- I give them to you - ask the universe and you will receive. Your new beginning . No guilt no pain.

Hi Bill- enjoy your new path when you find it - the Gods turn your head away from the old. Good to know you are enjoying life- my love to dog.



"sh*t happens so flowers can grow"

[Chester]

Perheps the 'good ol' is not of service to us anymore, Mike. A simplistic thinking that relates to the surface only has never been in service for us in the first place, as beneath the surface participants and events takes place and steering of pots is done when consciousness is unaware


And yet now, in the case of the missing property... the consciousness of all effected parties is quite aware.

There are two parts to this post but the point of the post is found in part two.


I have made more mistakes in the last 15 months than I made in years prior but I did get one thing out of it.

That I needed a set of strict rules to keep me from screwing up again.

Most of us have heard the importance of what we think, speak/write and do.

My own (now) Rule one is related to my thoughts and why this is important is that even in the most heated moments where my emotions are dominant, I still always have my mind fully aware of everything happening in the moment. Thus always what I then might speak, write or do is always preceeded by my opportunity to think about it first so... for me it all starts with thoughts.

So, since nowadays I cannot exactly be certain as to where a specific thought is coming from (regardless of the form of external influence) I can still at least look at that thought and decide if it is a thought I wish to retain and thus own.

So, I cannot know for sure if a thought I might have is generated or at least influenced by some external third party, but what I can absolutely know for certain is that if I then consider that thought and then retain that thought, own that thought, now it is mine.

This means that regardless of any external third party influences...

I

am

responsible.

I recommend everyone who feels they are influenced by any third party in any form try this discipline out.

I enjoyed many, many talks with some of the folks related to this thread about this very thing.


Part two - At this point, all parties are fully conscious of everything related to the property issues.

So, sometimes no matter how hard we might try to maintain this discipline (the above protocol) perfectly, some of us (like me) still fall short. Yet also, some of us do a pretty damn good job of doing the right thing once we see and admit where we erred.

Likely mistakes have been made by both parties (C and B) yet reagrdless of various justifications, if both parties engaged in achieving a mediated mutual agreement... a final resolution and adhered to the terms, continued mistakes could be prevented. Perhaps attempts have been made by one party and ignored by the other (one of those attempts was mentioned in this thread).

Perhaps this is why (now) this matter has been brought forward via this forum.

It is not too late to take the matter back privately (perhaps it can only be done with third party mediation) and resolve things to the satisfaction of both parties.

If one is willing and the other not, then I would imagine this won't just fade away...

[gripreaper]

So the lessons I get from this thread are:

1. If you're trying to put out a forest fire, don't pour gasoline on it.

2. Don't make determinations based on information which is incomplete, and the results are pending.

3. If you are trying to negotiate a reasonable settlement between yourself and another interested party, and the subject matter and all the variables are loaded with emotion, don't expect to foster the negotiations by making inflammatory slanderous accusations on public forums.

4. If you are trying to protect damaged individuals who are exposed to all manner of exotic technology and are being manipulated and entrained by such technology, do not use examples which are not directly related to the situation to bolster your premise.

5. If you are not privy to the facts, and you are looking at a situation from the sidelines, don't jump on any bandwagons or choose sides because a party you trust and have been exposed to for years "says" that things are a certain way, and you want to believe that this party is sincere, even though they are emotionally involved.

6. Don't stick your nose where it doesn't belong.

7. Beware of all of the latest microwave entrainment technology being employed to influence consciousness, and use major discernment to discern your discerning. We are all subject to such entrainment.

8. Don't bring issues into public forums where they don't belong.

9. All humans deserve respect and should not be subject to public tribunals based on hearsay, innuendo, or limited facts, from people who have no business making such determinations. These same humans should not be subject to any form of jurisprudence in the commercial system of admiralty.

10. Don't air your dirty laundry in public.

[ThePythonicCow]

We've been as clear as we could be, in many posts above. But we realize that some will choose a quite different view of this matter. I am convinced as I can be that they (such as the poster just above me) are very wrong in the view they post. I see no sense in repeating myself to those who will not listen, except to use my words as a springboard to repeat their misunderstandings and nice sounding rhetorical fallacies.

[Limor Wolf]

Cosmic gates are closing. Don't let us stay without eachother, as such was the intent ~

[transiten]

And yet now, in the case of the missing property... the consciousness of all effected parties is quite aware.

There are two parts to this post but the point of the post is found in part two.


I have made more mistakes in the last 15 months than I made in years prior but I did get one thing out of it.

That I needed a set of strict rules to keep me from screwing up again.

This means that regardless of any external third party influences...

I

am

responsible.

I recommend everyone who feels they are influenced by any third party in any form try this discipline out.

Part two - At this point, all parties are fully conscious of everything related to the property issues.

So, sometimes no matter how hard we might try to maintain this discipline (the above protocol) perfectly, some of us (like me) still fall short. Yet also, some of us do a pretty damn good job of doing the right thing once we see and admit where we erred.

Totally agree! Carl Jung said when 2 opposites are constellated a 3:rd "divine" factor might step in and present a solution noone would have thought of.

By the way Sam is your avatar a kite??

[transiten]

Now this lovely astrologers forecasts just fit in perfectly with what's been and is happening here both individually and collectively. Hope it's not regarded as "Off topic" How could it since astrology is our collective Hughe Cosmic Mirror down to the smallest personal detail. And what if she's one aspect of this 3:rd factor "divine/divinative" intervention ;)

gPkvoXM0ACA

rJ8y-b3_g9g

[gripreaper]

. I see no sense in repeating myself to those who will not listen, except to use my words as a springboard to repeat their misunderstandings and nice sounding rhetorical fallacies.

You "have" been as clear as you could possibly be. So, as you have so eloquently pointed out, even with you taking over a year to come up with your OP, choosing your words as wisely as you possibly can, being as succinct as possible, there is still misunderstanding. AND THAT IS MY POINT.

There is no way, no matter how much this is discussed for reasonable explanation, and those of us who are not intimately involved with both parties, and the inner workings of the Avalon forum, its founder and the moderation team, to EVER get to a place where we can process this and understand it.

You brought this into the open public forum when, in my opinion, it should have remained private. At the very least, your inclusion of Bill and Christines pending divorce settlement as an example was ill advised, and in my opinion, hurt both of them and may have caused a breach in any possible equitable solution to their divorce that may have still been pending.

This thread has hurt Avalon as well, because it has shown the entire world that it is okay to bring another human being, who was once revered by this forum as being impeccable, who is still loved by many here, into a tribunal of her peers in an open forum, where such tribunals do not belong, and be slandered (use the word "discussed" if slandered is too harsh for you) WITHOUT all the facts, where the facts will never be fully available to us, and where it is none of our business.

Jeez Paul, listen to what people are saying in this thread. Have you read it? Listen to what the best people at Avalon are NOT saying, not participating, and not thanking the posts.

Quite frankly Paul, I am surprised by the moderation team thinking that this whole thread was okay. I feel like there is now this big Matzah Ball hanging out there that can never be retrieved, and I don't know how to fully process this, and feel like I never will be able to.

So, on an energetic level, it feels very perturbed, agitated, divisive, and uncomfortable. If these points are considered nice rhetorical fallacies, then that is the ultimate outcome of bringing something into the open which has no possible resolution which should have remained private.

[Jake]

Cosmic gates are closing. Don't let us stay without eachother, as such was the intent ~


Indeed, this is what we spent the better part of a year addressing. If even an echo of our intent can be heard. Limor doors are opening!

People are healing. Cosmic gates do not close. That is absolutist and i reject it, absolutely! Healing and forgiveness is a cosmic dance, no?

There is a powerful NOW that is being ignored! The suffering of the past and the illusions of the future are not ours alone! Shine your light! Its all we can do, its all you can do. In all of these cryptic mentionings there are victims waiting, watching... :) It means that cosmic gates are opening! We can only wear our bodies for so long... Now is an amazing place! But if you cant see it..........

With the deepest respect and friendship... limor, i dont have an agenda... i want to help people! I have been and will continue to no matter if friends steal from me or not.. There is a gambit afoot! No doubt! Im sorry thatyou only see doors closing.

We have been suffering this with our entire souls. If a single discussion is going to implode the universe then what a fake universe it is!

Limor, shine your light! Ther are things in the darkness that do not belong there...

Jake

[Limor Wolf]

I am sorry for the sadness and suffering you all went through this year, jake, I understand that, I truly am.

[pabranno]

I have always been amazed while watching you incredible people work through issues. I have seen many threads that have delved, debated, diverged and processed feelings thoughts with great soul searching. Sometimes great discord. Being part of threads like this allow us the opportunity to really dig deep, change and most importantly grow. Hopefully in a positive way. That is up to each of us. I believe we are all sharpening each other, "like iron sharpens iron". So, no matter how charged or confusing the issue, I see incredible souls grappling with real-life issues, mostly determined to grow through it. I have never been a part of anything like Avalon. I admire you all. This is courageous, real, painful and confusing. True growth. Beautiful.

[RunningDeer]

Have a restful day everybody. With All in spirit. http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/Recovered/earthhug_zpsoj1aizef.GIF

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/Healed/burning-sage_zpsqqeeg4gr.JPG

RunningDeer ♡

[Sierra]

If one is willing and the other not, then I would imagine this won't just fade away...

You are right Sam. It takes two to tango.


Don't make determinations based on information which is incomplete, and the results are pending.

You are right Grip. The information is incomplete. The results will pend (and change) (Thank Heavens) to eternity and beyond, taking the long view. It's the differential that makes the difference, as Carmody would say.


Cosmic gates are closing. Don't let us stay without each other, as such was the intent
~

You are right Limor. The gates are closing according to Hopi prophecy, and some of us will go one way, and some will go another. All one can do is work out one's own salvation in fear and trembling, as the quote goes. Although I would say work out your own salvation from your best, and highest self you can be at any point in time. As Greybeard says, everyone *is* doing their very best. Right now.


------- ------- -------

This thread is a microcosm of the moderator chat room when stuff started coming out a year ago, and we had to process the data much the same, with emotion, stress, and disagreement. I quit the moderator team in a fury at one point.

In such times, I rely on "The truth will set you free.". And sometimes I have to wait a damn long time for the penny to drop, because I am too busy being stupid.

And now here comes :heart:RunningDeer's :heart: usual damn disclaimer lol...

I am a work in progress.

Love to all, Sierra

[Rocky_Shorz]

It is sad having these two fade from Avalon memory...

You mods must feel like the family dogs went rabid and have to be hauled out to the back yard to be shot...

Going to miss the old girls...

I saw a sign up the street advertising free puppies... ;-)

[transiten]

Jeez Paul, listen to what people are saying in this thread. Have you read it? Listen to what the best people at Avalon are NOT saying, not participating, and not thanking the posts.


Hmmmmmmm....

[Octavusprime]

I don't know how I feel about public floggings and character attacks. If it were me I would keep it simple and state C is no longer a member and we don't endorse her activities.

But stealing is stealing. I don't care if you are married, I don't care about divorce laws. If you join a relationship and then feel entitled to take that which was your partners before you met then you are wrong. For me anything that was accrued during the relationship is the ONLY thing that should be considered. Even that stuff is a straight 50/50 split.

I'm all for forgiveness but in order to be considered for forgiveness you must first acknowledge you were wrong and make every effort to correct it. C should apologize and return that which was never hers to be even considered for forgiveness.

This whole thing is disgusting to be honest. Personal issues should be dealt with personally. Public executions are never healthy. She will live with what she has done, no point trying to further humiliate her in public.

Just my opinion, it's your forum.

[ulli]

Conflict has only two outcomes, either a happy ending where unity reigns, or more division and each party go their own way.
Tragedy or comedy.
I guess the mods find themselves in a "damned if you do, and damned if you don't" position.
In my personal life, the harder I tried to do things the most perfect way possible, the greater the mess I found myself in.

But in the end it's better to have tried one's best than be sloppy and careless.

As an astrologer I experienced this kind of conflict a lot. On the one hand I wanted to give people warnings, but how to know what would plant excessive fear in a client's mind and what would create an overreaction? In the end, it depended on the recipient, how they would absorb what I told them.

Similar scenario here. Each reader projects according to where their identification is most directed. With some it is polarized because of gender. With others it's less personal, and this is the case with me, who wants to always place the forum before all, but also not condemn individuals.
But the forum is a hierarchy, whether we like it or not.
Bill at the top, and then the mods, and then the rest of us, with our always shifting positioning.
How to reconcile this hierarchy structure with our idealism regarding perfect equality?
Again, this is a fine line, which each one has to find on their own.
Motive is then the final word. Motive, motive.
Examine where it's time to let go of fixed ideas which are nothing more than cultural programming, such as "day in court", or "washing dirty linen in public".
Accountability also comes in, as a consideration.
"The most beloved in my sight is justice...turn not away therefrom."~God
http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/andrew_cohen/justice---l-body2.jpg

[promezeus]

. I see no sense in repeating myself to those who will not listen, except to use my words as a springboard to repeat their misunderstandings and nice sounding rhetorical fallacies.

Jeez Paul, listen to what people are saying in this thread. Have you read it? Listen to what the best people at Avalon are NOT saying, not participating, and not thanking the posts.
So, on an energetic level, it feels very perturbed, agitated, divisive, and uncomfortable.

Let me see if I understand what you said....


"Jeez Paul, listen to what people are saying in this thread. Have you read it?"
You're saying that paul is not listening to the particular posts in this thread which YOU think are important, right?
and that must mean paul is not be reading the thread, right, cause no intelligent person could possibly be reading the posts and have a different opinion than you!? :)


" Listen to what the best people at Avalon are NOT saying, not participating, and not thanking the posts. "
Oh that clarifies it more now....So you're saying that your gurus are not posting here or thanking any posts so there must be nothing of value here and most likely thread should be closed right!? :)


"So, on an energetic level, it feels very perturbed, agitated, divisive, and uncomfortable."
Yes I understand completely now. Avalon is only here for your gurus to share their wisdom and keep everything nice and cozy so you have a safe place to escape the real world, right!? :)

[gripreaper]

Oh that's just perfect promezeus, an ad hominem attack of the poster using individual phrases outside of the overall context to discredit the poster. Perfect. Yea, that's the kind of energy we want here at Avalon. Of course when Paul suggests I’m using rhetorical fallacies that’s okay. You go ahead and jump on that bandwagon.

The point is, there are still people here at Avalon who believe that this public lynching of Christine is out of order, who are holding the space of compassion and healing, and are NOT participating in the public lynching of her. If these are my "guru's" as you say, then so be it.

Yea, I know who they are and you would too if you notice who is NOT participating in this thread or thanking any of the posts. With some of the energy being applied to this thread, we have the public square and the only thing missing is the rope!

And Bill warned the moderators NOT to bring this into the discussion, but apparently they ignored him. Apparently I'm "Just not listening when Paul says
I see no sense in repeating myself to those who will not listen and you don't have to listen to me either. That is your prerogative.

Science and spirituality can and never will meet if we don't look at the science of energy manipulation, microwave entrainment, energetic curses, Milab manipulation, and the damages that this type of technology is having on our collective evolution. There are many threads here already discussing this phenomenon. Whether those who are trying to help are charlatans could also be applied to Bill for trying to help Christine.

But spirituality will NEVER meet up with science if we don't clean our own houses, wash our own laundry, and use grace and compassion when dealing with others. If the metaphors I use are too cliché, then so be it. Christine is another human being on the planet, one in which Bill had a very deep relationship with, and to let the mods call her a thief and defame her character in an open forum is just plain WRONG in my book.

For someone who had such deep compassion for her, who loved her and gave his all to her on the deepest levels possible, must know compassion and could continue to apply grace in this very difficult situation, AT LEAST until there was some resolution to the matters of disbursing the assets of the marriage and the issue over the gold was resolved. I'm not suggesting Bill hasn't done everything he could so far. We should apply the same grace as well.

So go ahead, attack the messenger and ignore the public lynching taking place. I’m not going to, and I realize I may be taking 5 years of impeccable posting record here and putting it on the line. I’ve seen people get banned from this site for a lot less over the years.

[Sierra]

Let's take a break.

Flush the chemicals.

I'll reopen in an hour.

[Sierra]

Thread is open. <ducking and running>

Seriously though, no one is on duty but myself, and I'm going for a walk. And I have company tonight.

[greybeard]

Enjoy your walk and the company Sierra.
Love Chris

[Debra]

Well, I am most glad this thread has re-opened.

So very important. The elephant in the room needs help.

Let's keep the light shining on it to see and understand better what is going on.

This is not just an issue that relates to one personal story or just a few individuals (bless of all of you) it is bigger than that. It has come to the surface for a reason and although I bring my personal immediate reading and judgements to the situation presented, there really is no right or wrong, there just is. And I am a part of that. I am in this process with all of you.

Putting a lid on it, will only create greater disease.

This is part of the evolution.

Those cosmic gates, as I undertand them, do not open for anyone unless we face up to what it is that we need to see and understand - and yes love.

And every micro point here is important, dear people, we must never lose sight of that.

I might not agree with every point that is made but I am willing to listen, understand and learn. Every voice that comes into this has value for the greater all.

Trust

[seah]

If one is willing and the other not, then I would imagine this won't just fade away...

You are right Sam. It takes two to tango.


Don't make determinations based on information which is incomplete, and the results are pending.

You are right Grip. The information is incomplete. The results will pend (and change) (Thank Heavens) to eternity and beyond, taking the long view. It's the differential that makes the difference, as Carmody would say.


Cosmic gates are closing. Don't let us stay without each other, as such was the intent
~

You are right Limor. The gates are closing according to Hopi prophecy, and some of us will go one way, and some will go another. All one can do is work out one's own salvation in fear and trembling, as the quote goes. Although I would say work out your own salvation from your best, and highest self you can be at any point in time. As Greybeard says, everyone *is* doing their very best. Right now.


------- ------- -------

This thread is a microcosm of the moderator chat room when stuff started coming out a year ago, and we had to process the data much the same, with emotion, stress, and disagreement. I quit the moderator team in a fury at one point.

In such times, I rely on "The truth will set you free.". And sometimes I have to wait a damn long time for the penny to drop, because I am too busy being stupid.

And now here comes :heart:RunningDeer's :heart: usual damn disclaimer lol...

I am a work in progress.

Love to all, Sierra

i had no idea that was RunningDeer's line...i often use it, too.

i am a young'un here, but not to the world at large...these matters, imo, need not have been aired.

have we learned nothing from the Selkie/JLL issues being circulated 24/7? there are always two sides to a tale, no?

there is so much learning for those who are emotionally connected to this issue if they can see it through the eyes of those of us not connected.

[Valley]

I don't think it's necessary to close a thread like this, but think that it's very healthy to talk out the 'turbulence', so that we can reach greater understandings with each other and not 'bottle up' our emotions. I do think that a more productive way of discussing challenging topics like this is to clearly state how we are feeling ourselves, without the 'harshness' projected onto any one or another party.

The inclusion of the 'gold heist' is perhaps the most powerful 'turbulence producer' in the thread, it seems... and the thing that Bill advised not to include here (to his credit)... probably because he knew that was a more private, relationship/finance matter between he and C. I can understand why the mods included it though... because it would perhaps help to justify their actions of closing the 2 member's accounts, and serve to distance folks from who they perceived as 'bad influences'. But they don't have all the details of B & C's financial agreements (i don't think), which may have partially justified C's seemingly spontaneous and questionable decision.

A few questions I have... Why did Bill allow the 'golden opportunity' to be mentioned, when he asked that this not be revealed? Does he not have 'veto power'? Did the mods tell him that they were going to include this 'aspect' before the final decision to post?

If I'm asking too many questions, somebody let me know, please. I'm not looking to add any more turbulence to this 'energetic storm'... just speaking my mind, and seeking answers to important/relevant questions.

Blessings across the board...

[promezeus]

A few questions I have... Why did Bill allow the 'golden opportunity' to be mentioned, when he asked that this not be revealed? Does he not have 'veto power'?

veto power..hmm
that's like one person or oligarchy or authority having final say on an issue when they feel they know better than the rest?
I suspect Bill sees avalon as more community property than his own property, and therefore using veto power would be no more likely to occur to him than changing the locks on his safe.

[Valley]

Right, Pomezeus... I'm only referring here to this one personal matter here of the mentioning of the Gold. Surely, since this is his private business, they would have respected his wishes if he really didn't want that mentioned here... So he could have told them bluntly, "Leave that part out."... and they would have honored that request, I assume.

[Debra]

Right, Pomezeus... I'm only referring here to this one personal matter here of the mentioning of the Gold. Surely, since this is his private business, they would have respected his wishes if he really didn't want that mentioned here... So he could have told them bluntly, "Leave that part out."... and they would have honored that request, I assume.


I do believe this has already been explained by Bill, Valley, in this thread.

[ThePythonicCow]

From my perspective, Bill has veto power - it's his forum, and that's fine by me (very fine.)

In this case, Bill made a deliberate decision, when the rest of us mods and admins decided that the time had come to act, that he would stay out of it. He let us know his view on a few matters, and served as witness to provide further details as he understood them and chose to share them, but he consciously chose not to override the decisions of the other mods and admins on this particular matter.

There have been times during this thread when I wish we had followed his suggestion. We included the matter of the gold as evidence of character, to provide further context for our concerns regarding counseling of systemically abused clients. Unfortunately perhaps, the gold matter has at times overshadowed our concerns that motivated this thread.

The gold likely however is just a easily invoked hook into deeper issues, that would have been present on this thread anyway:

We have deep differences of opinion amongst us as to what matters most in the conduct of human affairs, and
more or less all of us are at the risk of being emotionally triggered by situations reminiscent of some traumatic event(s) in our past.

That combination can make for difficult discussions when it comes to tough decisions involving people we have known and trusted for a long time.

[Valley]

Right, he did say something about this, but very little. I'm asking for more details.


Right, Pomezeus... I'm only referring here to this one personal matter here of the mentioning of the Gold. Surely, since this is his private business, they would have respected his wishes if he really didn't want that mentioned here... So he could have told them bluntly, "Leave that part out."... and they would have honored that request, I assume.


I do believe this has already been explained by Bill, Valley, in this thread.

[Valley]

Thanks for those concise clarifications and astute observations Paul. Yes, the gold, especially being that it was a significant amount, does trigger within folks that 'sore spot' of being robbed... if there is such a spot. But not in me, as I've learned to distance myself from attachments to the material world, and instead to look at the underlying reasons for such 'happenings'... so they can be understood and prevented in the future. For example, I was robbed of $1,000's worth of equipment once... and I was certain of who did it, but I just let it go because I realized that I invited that into my life... and I even had a premonition that it was going to happen the last time I saw the equipment. I did afterwards confront the 'robber', who I knew somewhat, and actually helped him mend relations with someone else that day... though that was the last time I spent time with him.

I've also learned that we cannot really 'own' anything physical, even though we are told so by a manipulated society... with all the fabricated laws and regulations to support and protect it. I see that it's all just a big fantasy that has been agreed upon and programmed into people's minds. A society that breeds selfishness by design, at the cost of other's hardships... everyone for themselves, instead of everyone supporting 'the whole'. That's why it's unsustainable and why it's collapsing... It all must change, for the better of All... And we are changing it, every time we choose actions in support of the 'All', instead of just for the very few, or just for ourselves. We need to stop being so self-ish and start being more 'All-ish'.

Blessings All Around...

From my perspective, Bill has veto power - it's his forum, and that's fine by me (very fine.)

In this case, Bill made a deliberate decision, when the rest of us mods and admins decided that the time had come to act, that he would stay out of it. He let us know his view on a few matters, and served as witness to provide further details as he understood them and chose to share them, but he consciously chose not to override the decisions of the other mods and admins on this particular matter.

There have been times during this thread when I wish we had followed his suggestion. We included the matter of the gold as evidence of character, to provide further context for our concerns regarding counseling of systemically abused clients. Unfortunately perhaps, the gold matter has at times overshadowed our concerns that motivated this thread.

The gold likely however is just a easily invoked hook into deeper issues, that would have been present on this thread anyway:

We have deep differences of opinion amongst us as to what matters most in the conduct of human affairs, and
more or less all of us are at the risk of being emotionally triggered by situations reminiscent of some traumatic event(s) in our past.

That combination can make for difficult discussions when it comes to tough decisions involving people we have known and trusted for a long time.

[ThePythonicCow]

We need to stop being so self-ish and start being more 'All-ish'.
It's not an either-or. It's a both.

[Valley]

Right, the more we support the 'All', the more we are actually supporting ourselves... and if we have the All in mind, then whenever we make advancements for ourselves... the All will benefit.


We need to stop being so self-ish and start being more 'All-ish'.
It's not an either-or. It's a both.

[ThePythonicCow]

Right, the more we support the 'All', the more we are actually supporting ourselves...
... and the more we support ourselves, the more we support the 'All'.

The key is the quality of support, how aware it is of the multiple, self-organizing, self-perpetuating layers, of reality, including layers above our conscious awareness and physical existence, but not excluding the lower layers of the "mundane" physical. It all matters, whether or not it is matter.

[Valley]

Right, the more we support the 'All', the more we are actually supporting ourselves...
... and the more we support ourselves, the more we support the 'All'.

The key is the quality of support, how aware it is of the multiple, self-organizing, self-perpetuating layers, of reality, including layers above our conscious awareness and physical existence, but not excluding the lower layers of the "mundane" physical. It all matters, whether or not it is matter.

As a matter of fact, I think we might be getting somewhere here :)... but where are we getting ourselves to?... And how can we be sure we're 'getting somewhere', when there is so much complexity going on... so many 'layers'? My advice is to mainly pay attention to our 'feeling centers'... to become more conscious of the energies that we feel flowing throughout our 'bodies'... I don't think our internal feelings can 'lie' to us... but our minds can because they have been confused by outer (and sometimes inner) 'nonsense' from a 'dark design'. I think we need to move our attention away from the 'mentality of madness', (or 'madness of mentality')... and more into the 'doorways of truth'... our feeling/energy centers.

How's everyone feeling today?

Bless...
:heart:

[gripreaper]

How's everyone feeling today?

I feel like I need to go take a long hot shower. I can't believe what I am reading in this thread.

Over 20,000 views in five days, rather unprecedented. The whole world is watching.

[Dennis Leahy]

. I see no sense in repeating myself to those who will not listen, except to use my words as a springboard to repeat their misunderstandings and nice sounding rhetorical fallacies.

You "have" been as clear as you could possibly be. So, as you have so eloquently pointed out, even with you taking over a year to come up with your OP, choosing your words as wisely as you possibly can, being as succinct as possible, there is still misunderstanding. AND THAT IS MY POINT.

There is no way, no matter how much this is discussed for reasonable explanation, and those of us who are not intimately involved with both parties, and the inner workings of the Avalon forum, its founder and the moderation team, to EVER get to a place where we can process this and understand it.

You brought this into the open public forum when, in my opinion, it should have remained private. At the very least, your inclusion of Bill and Christines pending divorce settlement as an example was ill advised, and in my opinion, hurt both of them and may have caused a breach in any possible equitable solution to their divorce that may have still been pending.

This thread has hurt Avalon as well, because it has shown the entire world that it is okay to bring another human being, who was once revered by this forum as being impeccable, who is still loved by many here, into a tribunal of her peers in an open forum, where such tribunals do not belong, and be slandered (use the word "discussed" if slandered is too harsh for you) WITHOUT all the facts, where the facts will never be fully available to us, and where it is none of our business.

Jeez Paul, listen to what people are saying in this thread. Have you read it? Listen to what the best people at Avalon are NOT saying, not participating, and not thanking the posts.

Quite frankly Paul, I am surprised by the moderation team thinking that this whole thread was okay. I feel like there is now this big Matzah Ball hanging out there that can never be retrieved, and I don't know how to fully process this, and feel like I never will be able to.

So, on an energetic level, it feels very perturbed, agitated, divisive, and uncomfortable. If these points are considered nice rhetorical fallacies, then that is the ultimate outcome of bringing something into the open which has no possible resolution which should have remained private.

If some young female rape victim is saying, "That's the man that raped me!", what do we do? We didn't see the rape happen. We cannot know for sure - only the two of them know for sure. Do we believe her? Or, do we ask her how short her skirt was? Do we ask her if - at first - she said "hello" to the man, and if so, do we declare that the water is now muddied by the implied verbal contract that the man now says he felt he had with the girl?

Is the young girl slandering the man by her declaration that he raped her?

=====================


When you use the word "slander" you are taking a side, because slander means the accusation is a lie. You are implying the accuser is a liar. You're also saying that the accuser isn't smart enough to know whether he agreed in advance to allow the accused to take every penny of the remains of his family inheritance - money from long before the (brief) marriage. You are negating the veracity of the accuser, based on the strawman argument that maybe, just maybe, there is some extenuating circumstance that the accuser doesn't know about, that would allow the accused to take not just a little bit ("I was desperate for liquid cash!") not just half ("goddamn it, I feel like half is mine whether it is legal to take it or not!"), but rather to take every coin from the safe, lock it back up, and leave the country. Then, to admit to/confess to the theft, and ask if he wanted the gold coins back. Do you think Bill fabricated this, that he is a liar? So, you take the side of the accused, based on a flimsy strawman argument? Sounds like emotion, not logic.

There are plenty of people in prison that have people on the outside that love them. It's certainly OK to love a person who is guilty of a crime, rather than providing excuses for them or pretending they are not guilty. I don't see any problem with you rushing to the side of the accused and saying, "I love you anyway!", but I do see a problem with making up excuses for the guilty, and with using the term "slander" which implies that the accuser is a liar.

It may be hard to understand, if emotion replaces logic, but it is pretty clear. The accused also locked the accuser out of the Project Avalon forum's donations account, and embezzled the money. If someone can make up excuses for the guilty, then probably nothing we can say will matter, nor serve to alert them to the core issue for the moderators action: MILABS and other severe trauma victims seeking therapeutic care, possibly being hoodwinked by a self-declared "healer", and that were led down this rosy path in whole or in part by what appeared to be a tacit endorsement of the "healer" claim by Avalon. But, would you have believed that either? Would anyone have understood it without exposing the underlying character?

I want Christine to heal. I want this to be the "bottom" that she rises from, heals herself from (if she is capable), and not a public stoning. I have a number of friends that have "hit bottom", (mostly with substance abuse), and some of them climbed out, made amends, and earned back the respect and trust of friends and family. I wish it could have been handled privately. I did try to do that.

So I say to Christine's friends: please do not make excuses for her, you disempower her recovery by doing that.

To Christine, I say, you put yourself in this situation, and you're the only one that can climb out of the hole. I still have hope that you will do the right thing, send every bit of the money back to Bill, admit your mistakes, and start healing yourself and building trust. Leave the MILABS and other victims of severe abuse alone - regardless how much you believe in your power to heal others, these people may well be the far end of the spectrum of abuse and really do need extremely specialized therapy from therapists trained and experienced with abuse victims of this magnitude of abuse. You can show your sincerity by being honest, even though it will be difficult. You earn respect by doing what is right, even though it is difficult.

[transiten]

Is calling a person "thief" the same as condamnation? Is calling a brainwashed suicide bomber "murderer" condemnation? What is wrong with calling a "spoon a spoon"?

I cannot know 100% what is presented by Bill and the Mods is the one and only TRUTH. As things have unfolded we are all involved and there's no stepping back. As the astrologer pointed out there have been extremely volatile and disruptive energies with Mars in a T-square to Uranus and Pluto and with Mars in Libra focus is on relationships whether personal or a collective like fugutifs. This reflects a tendency to act on impulse and say something we might regret.

Saturn the planet of the tangible and structure in Sagittarius the sign most related to "truth" is in square to Neptune in Pisces the sign of spirituality and the untangible. On the negative side it might bring out "Hardened Saturnian my truth against your truth" and lead to intolerance and Neptunian confusion and deception.

On dec 11 we have a New Moon of New Beginnings in optimistic Sagittarius in a T-square with Jupiter in discriminating service oriented Virgo and Kiron the wounded healer in compassionate Pisces and in mutable, easily shifting signs. This constellation might help us see things from a higher perspective and move beyond the wounding of the past.

I have never had any therapy for my extremely traumatic experiences, maybe I need that contrary to what I said in an earlier post since this issue really digs it all up for review. I will be extremely discriminate of whoever i would consult.

A book that helped me is "Spiritual Vampires" The Use and Misuse of Spiritual Power by Marthy Raphael herself a victim.

Thankyou Dennis for your post, it was not there as i started mine but I feel they resonate well!

[transiten]

We need to stop being so self-ish and start being more 'All-ish'.
It's not an either-or. It's a both.

Yes Paul, that's a truly balanced Libran statement which I once carved into a wooden table. Letting yourself being robbed is doing the same to All since everything is connected.

This doesn't exclude a karmic lesson but doesn't excuse the wrongdoer in this life.

Thanks from a Libra Moon conj Neptune in the second house of values, money and possessions

[ulli]

I have come across more slander against Bill Ryan than any other person on Avalon.
Mostly on other forums where disgruntled ex-Avalonians became united in their negative opinion of him.
But also in emails addressed to me personally as well as Skype.
While I can understand that each is entitled to form whatever opinion they wish I would like to state why I stuck with Bill and Avalon and did not allow these comments to sway me.
It has to do with his work ethic, and his humility.
And most of all it has to do with the way he manages something as great and wonderful as this spiritual and scientific truth seeker forum, with hardly any financial benefit to himself.
This alone is a miracle nowadays.
Bill is not a whiner, he did not wish to damage anyone's reputation, and has been so discreet that not even his friends knew his side of the story until much later.
Long before I knew of Avalon I found out that individuals who are slandered have something that is of benefit and so there is an agenda to damage them. And the proportion is directly linked. It's not for me to try and figure out whether they brought it upon themselves via karma. I judge only the work they do in this life, and if it does good.
And if it does good, it is good. I then weigh this work against the work the slanderers are producing, and from there I make up my own mind. And usually there is simply no comparison.
By their fruits you shall know them.
https://scontent-mia1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/12316441_1229968223685875_5075273236927206354_n.jpg?oh=d0731c4910e5b21c994bc7dd7d1d0009&oe=56E80FAC

[Hazel]

A worthy quote amidst this libelous theatre of the grotesque (in the name of this cult of personality here on PA):

"Truth may be temporarily suppressed, but it can never die. A lie can never live, and as I am living, I am truth, which is of me and within me. I AM not silent on this matter."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2xlQaimsGg

It seems trial by Inquisition is not behind us... a travesty for 'human awakening'.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2uezcWWBdM&feature=youtu.be&t=24m56s

[greybeard]

If something similar to this arises again--heaven forbid.
On a need to know basis it could be aired in the member only section surely.

I agree with a lot of what Dennis said however, if I was a young girl, raped a year ago and having sought legal redress--shared with friends and found the details on the front page of the local Gazette I would not be over joyed.
Some things should be private and that which affects others perhaps not.

Sure members perhaps should be notified of the possible dangers of accepting healing from the unqualified former members and what allegedly happened to donations.

Accepting that its one thing for me to make suggestions when I was not privy to the discussions between mods, another thing to be part of the process of decisions made.

Chris

[Carmody]

Seek emotional detachment.

I have zero attachment to this thread and it's contents. I have no understanding of the reason it is considered contentious.

I went beyond these sort of emotional convolutions long ago.

[Jake]

Yes grip, go wash! Seems appropriate.

Your ranting is understood. You are completely out of line, but that's your choice.

You are charging Bill with crimes against humanity for how a discussion forum is moderated, while completely ignoring ACTUAL CRIMES?

That is quite interesting.

Make sure you wash behind yer ears!
Jake

[ThePythonicCow]

I have moved the two posts that Jake refers to (in his post, just above) to a new split thread in the Members only area: Split posts from the "Closing Avalon accounts" thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?87329-Split-posts-from-the-Closing-Avalon-accounts-thread).

I have also placed gripreaper's account on "Moderated" status, which means that his subsequent posts will not become visible to read until they are first reviewed and accepted by a moderator.

We do have a rule on this forum that we don't insult other members. Gripreaper was in clear and substantial violation of that rule.

[Curt]

Seek emotional detachment.

I have zero attachment to this thread and it's contents. I have no understanding of the reason it is considered contentious.

I went beyond these sort of emotional convolutions long ago.

iAKfbVaSN4Y

[Valley]

So it's alright for a mod to insult a member like this, but not ok for a member to insult the mods? Something seems amiss here.


Make sure you wash behind yer ears!
Jake

[Jake]

So it's alright for a mod to insult a member like this, but not ok for a member to insult the mods? Something seems amiss here.


Make sure you wash behind yer ears!
Jake

So after all that has been discussed and all of the implications,,, this comment is what is 'amiss'?

I can respect the maticoulous way in which mods are being held to a high standard! Thank you.

Jake

[Valley]

Hey, somebody's got to watch you guys. :) I guess that's always been a trait of mine, being "meticulous". I didn't graduate high school as Valedictorian on accident.
Peace...


So it's alright for a mod to insult a member like this, but not ok for a member to insult the mods? Something seems amiss here.


Make sure you wash behind yer ears!
Jake

So after all that has been discussed and all of the implications,,, this comment is what is 'amiss'?

I can respect the maticoulous way in which mods are being held to a high standard! Thank you.

Jake

[Jake]

For the record, Grip,, im sorry for the wee jab! I was continuing a play on words from the 'hot shower' remark. It was perhaps not appropriate, and i apologize. I am glad you are here, of course.

Jake

[greybeard]

For the record, Grip,, im sorry for the wee jab! I was continuing a play on words from the 'hot shower' remark. It was perhaps not appropriate, and i apologize. I am glad you are here, of course.

Jake

Aw Jake that was nice of you---its your true nature.
I have a lot of respect for you, I also have a lot of respect for Grip, we have both been here a long time and seen many good friends depart .
I dont always agree with the way he makes a point but he is meticulous in presenting his opinion with the best interests of Avalon in mind.

Chris