"Living Nonduality" -- The Film

[Clear Light]

http://vimeo.com/47797571
Vimeo link https://vimeo.com/47797571

Description : Candid dialogue with six "regular people" who attended Robert Wolfe's Non-dual meetings regarding their direct non-dual realization and their experience living everyday life from this enlightened perspective. Robert and his book "Living Nonduality" are the inspiration for this documentary. This film is dedicated to a good friend of the film makers named Bob Nickel, who passed away August 17, 2012, after a long courageous battle with cancer. Bob was also good friends with Robert Wolfe. Robert's Website: livingnonduality.org (http://livingnonduality.org/)

________________________________________

Possibly of interest to those who consider "Self-Realisation" as paramount in ones' Life ?

[Guish]

https://scontent-sin1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/1479550_927827633959684_6461229383579970998_n.jpg?oh=bedf3d5628217e2ae3f4dacef4c575d4&oe=571625EF

[OMG]

Hmm...how can you live a non-dual life? That would mean no more night/day, male/female, hot/cold, etc...basically cancelling everything that is considered Nature...

:blink:

[Clear Light]

Hmm...how can you live a non-dual life? That would mean no more night/day, male/female, hot/cold, etc...basically cancelling everything that is considered Nature...

:blink:

No, but similar : it's more like even though there still seems to be the appearance of "Duality" one has left behind / transcended / dissolved their Conceptual thinking that tended to designate and separate, whereas from a non-dual perspective, no such separation "exists" ...

Sort of like the "waves" on the "ocean" are still only the "ocean", we merely use the word "wave" as a conceptual designation (a "thing") for the purposes of communication >>>>> :blah: :blah: :blah: <<<<<

[ZooLife]

Non duality does not live a non duality life.

It is Lfe/ Love.


Additional :.


Duality is an illusory tainting/ tint/ hue of Life/ Love.


http://amsaiho.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/default-logo.jpg


https://i.ytimg.com/vi/X5ecpL7PsLE/maxresdefault.jpg

[greybeard]

The late Dr David Hawkins book "Power vs Force" is very helpful.
He described opposites as on sliding scale like a thermometer.
Take love for example "unconditional"decreasing till non existent.

You could liken the energy that we are to electricity " Ultimate--- descending voltage till absence of power/energy" through muscle testing keinesology he would test the spiritual energy of all manner of things on his logarithmic scale Christ--Krishna The Buddha at 1000--that the highest a human body could contain without the plasma being fried as he put it--joking, sort of.
Unconditional love 550 enlightenment 650 i I remember correctly

So basically non duality is awareness of energy the same but as at different strengths levels.
This is obviously a concept but perhaps a helpful one.
We are "Form-formless both and neither---beyond description"

Still going through the film despite regular laptop crashes.

Chris
found the link
http://nancybragin.com/2012/12/29/dr-david-hawkins-calibrated-reading-list/

[Clear Light]

You could liken the energy that we are to electricity " Ultimate--- descending voltage till absence of power/energy" through muscle testing keinesology he would test the spiritual energy of all manner of things on his logarithmic scale Christ--Krishna The Buddha at 1000--that the highest a human body could contain without the plasma being fried as he put it--joking, sort of.
Unconditional love 550 enlightenment 650 i I remember correctly

Oh, at that level I'd suggest the "body" has reverted back to its true nature as a "light body" (body of light) and such an individual could no longer be considered as being simply human lol !

So experientially as one's consciousness is refined there is a corresponding refinement of the apparatus of incarnation (our body or "vehicle") such that it is pervaded by ever increasing "frequencies" of energy ...

Yet at the same time one's sense of personal identity (ego) dissolves revealing an impersonal nature to "reality" ... Perhaps it's what we experience in moments of enlightenment when our personal self drops away eh ?

Onwards and Upwards (metaphorically speaking) haha :bigsmile:

Happy New Year Chris :highfive:

[greybeard]

Adyashanti spoke about how Kundalini became active before enlightenment preparing the body to be the container of higher energy---seemingly this continued after the event too.
Im coming to the conclusion that even this is part of illusion.
Ramana Maharshi said that "Neither creation nor dissolution happened"
Indra's dream perhaps.
Of my self I know nothing and I don't really need to know now.
Im just passing "time" talking about "nothing".

Happy New Year Simon.

[Clear Light]

Adyashanti spoke about how Kundalini became active before enlightenment preparing the body to be the container of higher energy---seemingly this continued after the event too.
Im coming to the conclusion that even this is part of illusion.
Ramana Maharshi said that "Neither creation nor dissolution happened"
Indra's dream perhaps.
Of my self I know nothing and I don't really need to know now.
Im just passing "time" talking about "nothing".

Happy New Year Simon.

Ah, perhaps it just seems like from the P.O.V of the illusory separate "self" that "things are happening" (including a sense of dissolution) whereas from the P.O.V of the Absolute "you" or "I" are mere transitory Phenomena briefly appearing on the "Canvas of Reality" ...

[Innocent Warrior]

Thanks for this video. I've read a bit about nonduality on Chris' thread so it's helpful to get more of an idea of how people live that in their everyday lives. After some pondering I've concluded living nonduality is not my way.

Rather than, "before enlightenment: chop wood, carry water, after enlightenment: chop wood, carry water" I prefer, "before enlightenment: chop wood, carry water, after enlightenment: use the force". Playing in the realm of duality, with the awareness that it is what it is, is quite an adventure!

[ZooLife]

The closest thing that comes to mind when describing "Living Nonduality" from a personal perspective is.....


Being presently aware that one is living a 'real life' story.


Being completely immersed in the story yet being presently aware one is immersed. Kind of like being in two places at once while knowing that isn't true.


http://i.ytimg.com/vi/r0qcfsla3XU/maxresdefault.jpg


http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/68/5d/eb/685deb3437f2dfe43a9c4ee3d3264256.jpg


Sometimes 'I' am immersed and sometimes all there SEEMS to be is immersion. ;)

:rapture:

[Clear Light]

Thanks for this video. I've read a bit about nonduality on Chris' thread so it's helpful to get more of an idea of how people live that in their everyday lives. After some pondering I've concluded living nonduality is not my way.

Rather than, "before enlightenment: chop wood, carry water, after enlightenment: chop wood, carry water" I prefer, "before enlightenment: chop wood, carry water, after enlightenment: use the force". Playing in the realm of duality, with the awareness that it is what it is, is quite an adventure!

Oh, IMHE whomsoever has gone through the "enlightenment experience" is very unlikely to feel satisfied (or at peace) for long "back in duality" because nothing is ever the same ever again ...

Just saying :)


May the Force be with "you" LOL :P

[greybeard]

Thanks for this video. I've read a bit about nonduality on Chris' thread so it's helpful to get more of an idea of how people live that in their everyday lives. After some pondering I've concluded living nonduality is not my way.

Rather than, "before enlightenment: chop wood, carry water, after enlightenment: chop wood, carry water" I prefer, "before enlightenment: chop wood, carry water, after enlightenment: use the force". Playing in the realm of duality, with the awareness that it is what it is, is quite an adventure!

Im smiling Rachel---because--I dont think there is any choice in the "matter"
As far as I can see its not possible to make enlightenment happen, cant buy, it earn it.

Ramesh Balsekar said that " At birth God begins to remove the the ego of some"
To my mind all spiritual teaching is a may be so--but some rings true.
eg "Be still and know that I am God" In the quietness I am very aware that I am and there is no need of story labels, definitions, my name to prove to me that I exist. In other words self aware.
I can also see that this awareness has not changed one iota in my living memory--therefore the rest of what the sages say may well be so.
I may well be eternal--certainly not the body and probably not the personality.
That's as much as I can reasonably be sure of, the rest I take on trust.

With love
Chris

[Jake]

"I was out for a stroll late in the afternoon," said Chuang Tzu. "I went to one of my favorite spots under a tree. I sat there, thinking about the meaning of life. It was so warm and pleasant that I soon relaxed, dozed off, and drifted into a dream. In my dream, I found myself flying up above the field. I looked behind me and saw that I had wings. They were large and beautiful, and they fluttered rapidly. I had turned into a butterfly! It was such a feeling of freedom and joy, to be so carefree and fly around so lightly in any way I wished. Everything in this dream felt absolutely real in every way. Before long, I forgot that I was ever Chuang Tzu. I was simply the butterfly and nothing else."

"It was, but like all things, it had to end sooner or later. Gradually, I woke up and realized that I was Chuang Tzu after all. This is what puzzles me."

"Even now, I cannot tell if i was (then) Chuang Tzu dreaming about being a butterfly, or if I am (now) a butterfly dreaming that I am Chuang Tzu."


Chuang Tzu smiled:

jake

[ZooLife]

Without duality 'we' would not even be having this conversation.

What conversation you ask?

Exactly.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8fu87sly_c

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/ab/e3/d4/abe3d49670d008c55faa05bf3f3e1238.gif


Captain Jack Sparrow: That's what a thinking
got us into this mess.

[Clear Light]

Without duality 'we' would not even be having this conversation

Ah ! How extremely perceptive of 'you' [1] ... :yo:

Now ... what was 'I' saying again LOL :ROFL:

_____________________________________

[1] Or perhaps how very perceptive 'one' *is* !

[Innocent Warrior]

Correct me if I misunderstood this (as per video); living nonduality is realising that there is no I and that life has no meaning because it's not real, yes? And that life on the outside looks the same but the inner life is changed? Among other things, but they're the parts I don't resonate with.

I get that life has no inherent meaning, but what is this awareness doing here, experiencing being an I (a human being no less...wow), if not to give life meaning and experience this as an I? I said playing in, perhaps it's more accurate to say play with, but how is that going back to duality if my scope of awareness has transcended the third dimensional realm?

I'm looking at the primacy of consciousness, the programmable vehicle I'm in (or within me, whatever perspective floats your boat) and the nature of reality and I think to myself, wow! I'm Source in this human vehicle which has enormous potential, what on Earth shall I do with this circumstance? Dropping the I is does not sound fun at all but to explore and play with the I does.

I've experienced miraculous acts, first one at 16, and it's magical and amazing. I decided to put the theories of us creating our own reality and the human potential to the test because I knew it could be done. I've had results and the outside has begun to look quite differently at times. This is my joy, not my ego. Nobody knows about it (a little, but not much), nobody witnessed the miracles when they happened and I don't feel bigger for it, just joyful.

I don't know where that fits into enlightenment, if at all, only that I've been guided by my heart to learn the mechanics of creating and to apply the knowledge to my own consciousness, and to direct my mind rather than being directed by my mind. This requires I walk along a path that is from the spiritual perspective; just observe objectively and move when moved without thinking about it etc.

So I'm not dropping the I, I'm reforming it. If that means I won't be enlightened then ah well, no biggie, it's not what I'm here for then.

[Meggings]

Rachel, thumbs up. I've been while awake and aware within this 3D body to incredible places, to other times, done work that I didn't even know was done - yet I've always had a point of awareness. What does NOT occur is judgement. Not even opinion.

I've zoomed up up up through dimensional levels (for lack of consensus in terminology) and have exited the matter universe, travelling a bit in layers of black before losing conscious awareness of it. I have joined companions and sung a planet into manifestation, yet have had a point of awareness that is "I" - a very joyful "I" beyond description - while doing.

I do have a friend who raps me over my knuckles, gently, for speaking of other places and times and experiences and lifetimes, yet I cannot see the purpose of life in duality if I close myself off to my multidimensional experiences by saying "they are not real". Why bother being alive in bodily form but to add to "I Am" in joy.

Even the phrase "life has no inherent meaning" is blah to me, for WE make our own meaning, our own purposes, our own activities within this vastness of life.

[Innocent Warrior]

I'd like to add that I agree that it does look ordinary on the outside to others. The times the changes manifest as like a glitch in the matrix (not referring to the miracles, which is a loose term too), the only other person who has experienced them (for what they are) is my partner who shares a similar belief system, hence also has perceived them, so I'm not going mad.

I'd rather not say anymore, I don't intend to bolster myself, only to bolster others who often feel frustrated and impotent in the face of this world's problems. These are abilities inherent in all humans and are being experienced by many, but imo are too often dismissed as less empowering events. Power isn't important in itself, but in a reality that can easily be experienced as disempowering, our power becomes a relevant focal point.

Love to all, thanks for sharing your insights.

[Clear Light]

Ah, Rachel, thank you so much for sharing your insight(s) and I acknowledge everything you've said ... you sound far from unenlightened :sun:

Yet, speaking from experience, what I'm getting at, is that at some point (when one is "ready" so-to-speak) the whole illusion of the separate 'I' is seen exactly as it is : an illusory unreal fantasy based on (and in) Duality.

If one then "decides" to proceed further it is necessary (apparently) to fully "let go" of that separative "identity" into the vast expanse of "empty" non-Duality ...

[greybeard]

My lap top is overheating and not fond of moving pictures so crashes.
I only got 2/3rd of the film because of this--therefore my over all impression may not be accurate.

What seemed to be missing was Divine love which many enlightened speak of--they also say that everything becomes more alive as there is no filter (ego)
You are at the movies but also very aware of the body and persona watching the movie--seems its a full on experience--not unaware.
There is compassion too.

The parts of the film I watched did not bring this across as far as I could tell.

Chris

[Clear Light]

Yes Chris, I'm also unconvinced that all those who are in the film had "opened up" to full-on "Divine Love" !

However one or two of the "men" did gesture with their body language (when speaking) by looking down affectionately to their chest area, as if to say "Ah there's a certain loving presence there" (because of their opened Heart chakras) ... nevertheless I certainly did not get that impression for all of them ...

Still, seriously, such things would more easily reveal themselves in a one-to-one conversation eh ?

[ZooLife]

There is a Knowing that isn't always consciously known.
This applies to all things.
Appearances will never accurately indicate this.
Appearances by nature, in all of it's aspects, is meant to deceive whether active or passively.

[Meggings]

Yes Chris, I'm also unconvinced that all those who are in the film had "opened up" to full-on "Divine Love" !
However one or two of the "men" did gesture with their body language (when speaking) by looking down affectionately to their chest area, as if to say "Ah there's a certain loving presence there" (because of their opened Heart chakras) ... nevertheless I certainly did not get that impression for all of them ...

Still, seriously, such things would more easily reveal themselves in a one-to-one conversation eh ?

There was a time during the years I "lived in the light" when THE PRECIOUS lived within my heart. It seemed to be a white stone of pure love. At a time it was actively within me, I experienced severe vicious attack. My personality self was mildly surprised though not hurt, but my Higher Self Spirit spoke through me. it's only words were "THIS IS NOT LOVE" as I stood with hands outstretched.

My personality self was aware of this precious thing within me, and I was certain that others MUST be able to see it also, since it was so obvious. But it attracted angry attack from husband. I was aware that all was perfect, there was no fear despite the situation that resulted in me losing most everything material/family/business/income... A Mack truck hurtling down the highway and splatting me like a bug on its windshield could have occurred, and all I felt was UTTER peace and love.

Is this non-duality? The Christ energies were active within me, but still I stood and spoke and moved about. Though in truth so often in those years the body acted without my thought directing it, and words spoke without me thinking them, words that I heard at the same moment others heard them. And I was a bit of a burden to the one who cooked and did all things for me, since all I seemed to do was sit and beam, and everything was surrounded by light (which is why I called those years living in the light).

As Rachel says, "... I don't intend to bolster myself, only to bolster others who often feel frustrated and impotent in the face of this world's problems. These are abilities inherent in all humans and are being experienced by many, but imo are too often dismissed...." For many years I did not share, but wondered why I'd have such experiences (for which there is no proof). So some years back I shared with a very small group and was attacked by one. I do not know why angry judgements are made, but I have learned to be relatively silent.

I tried again on this forum, but I think it is too far outside everyday experience as to be unintelligible to many. http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?52121-The-Higher-Self-and-transcendent-experience-including-OBEs&p=953607&viewfull=1#post953607

When this thread came up on non-duality, I began contemplating some of my former experiences. The days after returning to my body, when Divine Energy was roaring through me, when my eyes were flames of light, when Grace Itself inclined my head and smiled and spoke to others - it was not seen by my family.

Regarding ClearBlueSkies' comment about "full on Divine Love" being "more easily revealed...in one-to-one conversation" - it is not seen by those whose vibrational level is not high enough to perceive. It is, however, seen by those who have eyes to see. And to Rachel I express my delight that she has a partner of like temperament and experience, for sharing is so very strengthening.

It has been my intent to share, and even to remind myself that in the swirling mud of angry upset I currently live within, I am made of higher stuff.

[Clear Light]

Ah, Meggings, I too have had certain energetic experiences that seemed unbelievably magickal at the time LOL ... however, now, I don't ascribe any special importance to them because of the potential for distraction from the simplicity of the current moment, here and now.

I hesitate to even attempt to answer your question "Is this non-duality?" because anything I say represents a concept (something for your Mind to attempt to attach some meaning to) and non-Duality is beyond all concepts ...

I suppose if I had to give just one suggestion : "it's like being Aware of Awareness" ?


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_uHewhM43ujA/TLTWSyYdqyI/AAAAAAAAAgM/iuOESiwndQE/s1600/thought.jpg

[ZooLife]

I hesitate to even attempt to answer your question "Is this non-duality?" because anything I say represents a concept (something for your Mind to attempt to attach some meaning to) and non-Duality is beyond all concepts ...

I suppose if I had to give just one suggestion : "it's like being Aware of Awareness" ?


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_uHewhM43ujA/TLTWSyYdqyI/AAAAAAAAAgM/iuOESiwndQE/s1600/thought.jpg


Lovely! Simply lovely!


Can I quote 'me' on that? ;)

.............................................................

Aware of Awareness

Tricky words, as you know, 'Aware of Awareness' can be THOUGHT of as awareness of being aware of awareness and then down the rabbit hole we go. I don't MIND going down the rabbit hole for the MIND, often times, will go where it goes and tell me stories along the way.

It's a funny thing telling a story of going down the rabbit hole while being down the rabbit hole telling stories. ;)

[Clear Light]

Aware of Awareness

Tricky words, as you know, 'Aware of Awareness' can be THOUGHT of as awareness of being aware of awareness and then down the rabbit hole we go. I don't MIND going down the rabbit hole for the MIND, often times, will go where it goes and tell me stories along the way.

It's a funny thing telling a story of going down the rabbit hole while being down the rabbit hole telling stories. ;)

Oh !

Try this : Don't THINK of anything, DROP all your thinking right now ... then in the ABSENCE of thought aren't you still simply AWARE (I don't mean aware OF something) ???

As in it could be said you are Aware-ing continuously ... (with or without thought) ???


. : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : . : .

In the mirror-like Nature of the Mind, thoughts come and go but the mirror remains unaffected at all times ... you are Aware this is how it is aren't you ?

[ZooLife]

Nothing is aware and as such is aware of everything.

It's like being aware of the Big Picture (show) through all-time and all at once though revealed from an imaginary point of reference in time.

Awareness is a bit of a trick though for what does Awareness have to be aware of?

What Awareness is aware of isn't there and neither is there.


I am aware I am shadow dancing but from another perspective it would look like I was dancing with myself.

Small difference or no difference?

http://www.netanimations.net/groundhog-day-shadow-animated-gif-animation.gif

[Clear Light]

Ah, from a different perspective / approach : Annamalai Swami "Self alone is Real" (http://www.inner-quest.org/Annamalai_Self.htm)


32489

"Just remain like the sky and let thought-clouds come and go"

http://www.inner-quest.org/Images/Q72.gif UESTION : What is the easiest way to be free of the "little self"?

Annamalai Swami : Stop identifying with it. If you can convince yourself "This "little self" is not me", it will just disappear.

Question : But how to do this?

Annamalai Swami : The "little self" is something which only appears to be real. If you understand that it has no real existence it will disappear, leaving behind it the experience of the real and only Self. Understand that it has no real existence and it will stop troubling you.

Consciousness is universal. There is no limitation or "little self" in it. It is only when we identify with and limit ourselves to the body and the mind that this false self is born. If, through enquiry, you go to the Source of this "little self", you find that it dissolves into nothingness.

[greybeard]

Mooji speaks to you where you are in duality with Love.
A very helpful talk and reassuring as to where non-duality "functions" in duality.
Chris


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaWzi16xrl4

[ZooLife]

Nonduality is not in or out of anything, it is duality that believes otherwise.

Duality wants everything under it's control and will attempt to do so by imaging nonduality as 'something' that can be included in everything.

0 + 1 = 1

or

0 + 1 = 0

[Valley]

"Nonduality" is just a fancy word for Unity or Oneness. We are One awareness/beingness that has split into multiple perspectives.

[Clear Light]

"Nonduality" is just a fancy word for Unity or Oneness. We are One awareness/beingness that has split into multiple perspectives.

LOL ... if 'you' say so :wink:

[Guish]

Lovely thread Simon. I like saying we are all connected and that is the realization.

When I meditate, I become nothing. You are I and I am you. This is pure love. Non duality has a bad reputation as it supposedly tells you to drop your self completely. However, Buddha was quite clear to mention that we need to keep the body fit so that the mind stays fit as well. In my own experience, being nothing in terms of actions, selfless actions leads to bliss. I have already told about my personal experiences with this a few times here. I wouldn't want to repeat myself again.

[Clear Light]

Oh, continuing on the theme of this thread to which I openly welcome contributions from ALL Traditions, Teachings, Lineages or otherwise :


His Holiness the Dalai Lama : Mind Science - An East-West Dialogue (http://www.wisdompubs.org/sites/default/files/preview/MindScience%20Book%20Preview.pdf)


When investigating the ultimate nature of reality, Buddhist thinkers take the Buddha’s words not so much as an ultimate authority, but rather as a key to assist their own insight; for the ultimate authority must always rest with the individual’s own reason and critical analysis. This is why we find various conceptions of reality in Buddhist literature. Each is based on a different level of understanding of the ultimate nature.

[Clear Light]

Non duality has a bad reputation as it supposedly tells you to drop your self completely

Ah, I'll probably get flamed :flame: for this (by some no-one lol) but, speaking non-dualistically (haha), there is no-one who could do the 'dropping' nor is there any-thing to be dropped ...


:peep: :shielddeflect: :behindsofa:

[ZooLife]

We are one that is not one (one).

I repeat, not one one.

(okay, fine, it sounded funnier in my head) :)

[greybeard]

Non duality has a bad reputation as it supposedly tells you to drop your self completely

Ah, I'll probably get flamed :flame: for this (by some no-one lol) but, speaking non-dualistically (haha), there is no-one who could do the 'dropping' nor is there any-thing to be dropped ...


:peep: :shielddeflect: :behindsofa:

Can I join no one behind the couch?

Chris

[ZooLife]

Non duality has a bad reputation as it supposedly tells you to drop your self completely

Ah, I'll probably get flamed :flame: for this (by some no-one lol) but, speaking non-dualistically (haha), there is no-one who could do the 'dropping' nor is there any-thing to be dropped ...


:peep: :shielddeflect: :behindsofa:

Can I join no one behind the couch?

Chris

So...when all those who get behind the couch are behind the couch...

.....and btw you already know the answer to this......we find out that no one was behind the couch and worse yet......there is no couch! ;)

[greybeard]

Of course there is a couch I am that---The totality all of---There is no where I am not.

Some one Smiling.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Some one call for the green van --coming to take me away--or the Advaita Police-- Solitary confinement stares me in the!!!

[ZooLife]

One is ALL (things) but not all THINGS.

Of course descriptions ultimately fall short as descriptions are 'things'.

But it doesn't mean 'we' can't have fun dancing.

http://media.riffsy.com/images/751f71ab6604f5c7ae50d77b22baeb1b/raw

[Clear Light]

Oh ... Just like the surface of a Mirror, where Reflections appear and disappear (yet the Mirror is unaffected), so similarly do "thoughts" appear and disappear (yet our "Awareness" is unaffected).

But who is knowing such "Awareness" ? Rest there if 'you' so wish :biggrin1:

[Valley]

There is SomeOne here, there, and everywhere. The practice of 'stillness', meditation, or quieting the human identified mind/person helps 'open the door' to the 'true essence' of being, which is pure, unhindered awareness... pure Unlimited energy... pure Oneness... pure Love. That has been my experience... and I'm 'feeling the Love' now, and sending it out to you All right now.

If there was really 'nobody home'... then we would Never be able to say anything, feel anything, think anything, or do anything... Think about it. :)

[lucidity]

I don't mean to shatter anyone's illusions, or fantasies, or anything, .. but err....

... the emperor is completely naked.

[ZooLife]

There is SomeOne here, there, and everywhere. The practice of 'stillness', meditation, or quieting the human identified mind/person helps 'open the door' to the 'true essence' of being, which is pure, unhindered awareness... pure Unlimited energy... pure Oneness... pure Love. That has been my experience... and I'm 'feeling the Love' now, and sending it out to you All right now.

If there was really 'nobody home'... then we would Never be able to say anything, feel anything, think anything, or do anything... Think about it. :)

"Think about it" And there is where the trick resides.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Ob_X9LD72hA/T_rjDt4FV_I/AAAAAAAABeg/7NaTz9Gwzac/s1600/the_lines_of_my_thoughts01_answer_1_xlarge.jpg

[ZooLife]

I don't mean to shatter anyone's illusions, or fantasies, or anything, .. but err....

... the emperor is completely naked.

Surely somewhere in this story is the emperor's clothes walking around with no emperor. ;)

The clothes are completely naked of a body.

(Couldn't resist the quantum mechanics joke)

[Valley]

There is SomeOne here, there, and everywhere. The practice of 'stillness', meditation, or quieting the human identified mind/person helps 'open the door' to the 'true essence' of being, which is pure, unhindered awareness... pure Unlimited energy... pure Oneness... pure Love. That has been my experience... and I'm 'feeling the Love' now, and sending it out to you All right now.

If there was really 'nobody home'... then we would Never be able to say anything, feel anything, think anything, or do anything... Think about it. :)

"Think about it" And there is where the trick resides.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Ob_X9LD72hA/T_rjDt4FV_I/AAAAAAAABeg/7NaTz9Gwzac/s1600/the_lines_of_my_thoughts01_answer_1_xlarge.jpg

...Or don't think about it... Do whatever you like. There is no trick here. But thinking too much can be a big distraction... So maybe just try not thinking anything and see what happens... That was one of the meditations I used to do: Sit motionless (except for breathing) eyes closed and body in a relaxed position and focus on first relaxing the physical body completely, piece by piece or part by part, then all together as one... then relaxed the mind, thought by each passing thought, using the breath as a guide. This eventually led to a 'dimensional breakthrough' of sorts which sent my awareness at what seemed like 'lightspeed', which 'landed' in a 'supercharged' energy field of light and consciousness.

[Clear Light]

There is SomeOne here, there, and everywhere. The practice of 'stillness', meditation, or quieting the human identified mind/person helps 'open the door' to the 'true essence' of being, which is pure, unhindered awareness... pure Unlimited energy... pure Oneness... pure Love. That has been my experience... and I'm 'feeling the Love' now, and sending it out to you All right now.

If there was really 'nobody home'... then we would Never be able to say anything, feel anything, think anything, or do anything... Think about it. :)

Hmmm ... may I suggest : Our natural "unborn mind", when we are not distracted by the false self, has its own "wisdom" which by nature is of a Compassionate quality [1] due to its "wish" to relieve all Beings [2] of their "suffering" ...

Thus, truly, there is only the illusion of "some-one being home" :sun:

¤=[Post Update]=¤

[1] Emptiness is Compassion
[2] As there is only ever our own subjective "Perceptions" there are no objective "Beings" except Conceptually !

[Valley]

I don't mind suggestions, but that doesn't change my experience. In deep meditation I experienced what was a depth of consciousness that was 'beyond boundary or limitation', 100% positive, 'unshakeably powerful', and seemingly 'all-knowing'. There was definitely 'Somebody home'. Your 'truth' doesn't appear to be mine in this case.


Hmmm ... may I suggest : Our natural "unborn mind", when we are not distracted by the false self, has its own "wisdom" which by nature is of a Compassionate quality due to its "wish" to relieve all Beings of their "suffering" ...

Thus, truly, there is only the illusion of "some-one being home" :sun:

[Clear Light]

I don't mean to shatter anyone's illusions, or fantasies, or anything, .. but err....

... the emperor is completely naked.

LOL ... Now surely you don't mean to imply our sense of 'pesonal identity' is mistaken do you ? :wink:

[ZooLife]

The first (every)thing is two.

1 is 2
2 is 1

Is that the Truth? No.
The closer 1 gets to the Truth the more cryptic words, symbols, thoughts, ideas become.
It's like the disintegration of everything in the light of Truth.

[Clear Light]

I don't mind suggestions, but that doesn't change my experience. In deep meditation I experienced what was a depth of consciousness that was 'beyond boundary or limitation', 100% positive, 'unshakeably powerful', and seemingly 'all-knowing'. There was definitely 'Somebody home'. Your 'truth' doesn't appear to be mine in this case.


Hmmm ... may I suggest : Our natural "unborn mind", when we are not distracted by the false self, has its own "wisdom" which by nature is of a Compassionate quality due to its "wish" to relieve all Beings of their "suffering" ... (*)

Thus, truly, there is only the illusion of "some-one being home" :sun:

Oh, may I also suggest :wink: such Meditative experience (as described) doesn't happen to some-one / some-body ... it is only "after the fact" (so-to-speak) there is the tendency to claim it as "mine" or "it happened to me".

Even here and now, as you think about it, what is there except your current "perceptions" eh ?


___________________________________

(*) Please note I have made two clarifications to the message quoted

[greybeard]

Even though I accept that duality is a fact, it isn't for "me"
So I struggle slightly at times.
I realise that's ego.

A classic example is ---When Ramana Maharshi was dying of cancer he was a asked if this was painful, his response.
"There is pain" He dis not claim it as his, he did not own it.
Most things I can see that not only am I at the movies watching but Im in the movie--awareness sees this.
Now and then its taken personally briefly.
Still there is a vast improvement.
I know there is no one improving.
There is no end to it.
Chris

[Clear Light]

The outside world is not really concerned at all in man's
dilemma of suffering. It is all within the fictitious "me"
of personal identity. Realization of this fact is the
ultimate Understanding.

One does not experience suffering - one suffers an
experience. One who is aware of his true identity does
not, and cannot, suffer.

Ramesh S. Balsekar

_______________________________

Oh, AFAIK is not so-called "suffering" merely certain arbitrary sensations one would "prefer" not to "have" ... Like "resistance" to what is ?

[ZooLife]

Sometimes I think of different ways to describe things. For me it can be both fun and useful to me.

Duality is like the elephant in the room and since it is so perceptually infinite (in this case), it is also the room.

Nonduality is neither in the room nor out of the room and knows how incredibly all-encompassing the elephant/ room really is. It's so pervasive (elephant/ room) that one could hardly think of anything else though one may think they can. But hey, can you blame a girl from trying? :)

[Clear Light]

Perhaps this is of interest to those who have awoken from the dream of Duality (however briefly) ...

All the philosophical theories that exist have been created by the mistaken dualistic minds of human beings. In the realm of philosophy, that which today is considered true, may tomorrow be proved to be false. No one can guarantee a philosophy's validity. Because of this, any intellectual way of seeing whatever is always partial and relative. The fact is that there is no truth to seek or to confirm logically; rather what one needs to do is to discover just how much the mind continually limits itself in a condition of dualism.

Dualism is the real root of our suffering and of all our conflicts. All our concepts and beliefs, no matter how profound they may seem, are like nets which trap us in dualism. When we discover our limits we have to try to overcome them, untying ourselves from whatever type of religious, political or social conviction may condition us. We have to abandon such concepts as 'enlightenment', 'the nature of the mind', and so on, until we are no longer satisfied by a merely intellectual knowledge, and until we no longer neglect to integrate our knowledge with our actual existence.

– Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

from the book "Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State"


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Wr8MwTH-8_E/UMXXIZ7h_yI/AAAAAAAAAjE/JgJw_ZWQFTI/s1600/rinpoche-in-usa.jpg

[Clear Light]

LOL ... though clearly there is no actual "self" to be found anywhere ... :biggrin1:


https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/cc/b5/ed/ccb5ed9602b03de413e28f4acde2f577.jpg

[Finefeather]

There is no such thing as dualism... in the form that most think of it as... everything that appears as opposites is just our one sided notion of our moral beliefs... and ignorance of life.

There is no right and no wrong it just depends which way you want to be heading... then, and only then... is there a right way and a wrong way... you cannot get up the hill if you walk down the hill.

Even if we compare Physicalism with Spirituality there is no duality... because Physicalism is just the lowest point of Spirituality... and Spirituality is just the highest point of Physicalism.

[Clear Light]

Oh sure, I get that between Black and White, for example, are many shades of Grey, or between Hot and Cold is Warm, or between High and Low is Middle etc etc

But in terms on Consciousness "Dualism" refers to the apparent separation between Subject and Object, as if there is a Perceiver who perceives "things", or a Thinker who thinks thoughts ...

Whereas actually all there is is a continual stream of Perceptions, Thoughts, Feelings and Sensations eh ? :)

[Finefeather]

But in terms on Consciousness "Dualism" refers to the apparent separation between Subject and Object, as if there is a Perceiver who perceives "things", or a Thinker who thinks thoughts ...
Where did you read that? It is thought provoking :)

Subject and object? I assume that you mean Subjective and Objective? Lets see if it fits into my formula.

Objectivity is the realisation of subjectivity... and subjectivity is the forerunner of objectivity.

So objectivity and subjectivity are not dualism because they depend on each other to exist... that is why dualism is the inability to see the bigger picture.

You could also say this in another way...

Action follows Thought... and Thought precedes action... of course you can think without acting but that just means that we are in contemplation and maybe one day we might get around to doing what we were thinking about... some just think all day :)

[Finefeather]

But in terms on Consciousness "Dualism" refers to the apparent separation between Subject and Object, as if there is a Perceiver who perceives "things", or a Thinker who thinks thoughts ...
Just to ensure you that I did not miss the "Perceiver" and "Thinker" idea... They are one and the same because individual consciousness is the extent of both the "Perceiver" and the "Thinker" unless you are telepathic and perceiving the thoughts of others... and even then perception would be governed by the extent of your consciousness to understand the perception.

No one can perceive something which is higher than their consciousness permits.

[Clear Light]

But in terms on Consciousness "Dualism" refers to the apparent separation between Subject and Object, as if there is a Perceiver who perceives "things", or a Thinker who thinks thoughts ...
Just to ensure you that I did not miss the "Perceiver" and "Thinker" idea... They are one and the same because individual consciousness is the extent of both the "Perceiver" and the "Thinker" unless you are telepathic and perceiving the thoughts of others... and even then perception would be governed by the extent of your consciousness to understand the perception.

No one can perceive something which is higher than their consciousness permits.

Oh, but the point I am making is that 'you' are NOT your thoughts, perceptions, feelings and sensations ... 'you' are the KNOWING which knows them !

It's the Ego (the false self) that likes to take ownership of such things and tell stories about them eh ? LOL :wink:

[greybeard]

As yet there has not been a shift in this case so I have to take others word for it or not as the case might be and I take Tims word for this shift that can occur and has happened since recorded time.
So this is his account from the link

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?43027-Enlightenment-A-direct-succinct-account-of-what-occurs...&p=456904&viewfull=1#post456904

Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

This is an account of the direct experience of awakening.

What can be said, or written, of itself cannot reveal the truth.

Words and language are themselves an illusory tool, an aspect of the relative dream, and can only indicate or hint towards the totality, or reality, or that which is.

Upon the moment of awakening not only does the illusion of the relative self or ego vanish like a shadow exposed to light, but all “other” egos, or relative selves, disappear. All separation disappears, and the absolute Self is realized. All is then enlightened and whole, for there never really were separate entities that could become individually enlightened. There then is no relative doer, nor even an absolute doer, for all doing implies separation. Or something to do, or somewhere to go. And not just other humans, but the entire creation is enlightened and whole.

Now nothing can be judged, or observed, or transcended, as there is no separate observer, nor separate objects observed, nor even separate observing.

Here even the concept of pure awareness, the witness, unidentified with that which is observed, has dissolved into the totality. Herein lies the meaning of samsara is nirvana. The slightest separation into observer, observed and observing and samsara appears. When observer, observed and observing is an undifferentiated whole, the Self is self evident, and far more evident, than the illusory ego self.

All that is, then is, as it really is, here descriptions do not apply.

Now, what is missing from the above description of the direct experience of enlightenment?

It is the pronoun, I, for in truth there is no I, either relatively or absolutely. I implies a separation from totality, as the first person singular. Whereas the adjective Self, implies being the same throughout, as the self evident united reality/totality/all that is, and is more appropriate at hinting towards the truth.

You are in reality this Self, all else is illusion.
Relatively, this is the end of suffering. This is the beginning of endless bliss.
Absolutely, all suffering is unreal. Only the blissful Self is real.
This is the eternal Truth.

[Clear Light]

But in terms on Consciousness "Dualism" refers to the apparent separation between Subject and Object, as if there is a Perceiver who perceives "things", or a Thinker who thinks thoughts ...
Where did you read that? It is thought provoking :)

Subject and object? I assume that you mean Subjective and Objective? Lets see if it fits into my formula.

Objectivity is the realisation of subjectivity... and subjectivity is the forerunner of objectivity.

So objectivity and subjectivity are not dualism because they depend on each other to exist... that is why dualism is the inability to see the bigger picture.

You could also say this in another way...

Action follows Thought... and Thought precedes action... of course you can think without acting but that just means that we are in contemplation and maybe one day we might get around to doing what we were thinking about... some just think all day :)

Oh, 'I' know this is probably very likely to upset 'you' however since 1925 Quantum Mechanics / Physics has made clear no objective reality is possible !

Please may I refer you to this Avalon thread : "The Universe is Immaterial : Mental and Spiritual (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?86947-The-Universe-is-Immaterial-Mental-and-Spiritual)"

It may help to shed light on the differences between our respective philosophies :biggrin1:

[Apophenia]

Very interesting, would it be possible that the dualism of objectivity and subjectivity work both ways then, and not necessarily that one precedes the other?

Kind of like a table as opposed to a linear point A to point B arrangement.

Is it self-caused?

What about the finite, material reality being a creation/destruction cycle of the infinite?

If that is the case, then nothing matters and whatever created this finite reality is what is keeping it together, which would have to be another infinite soul... where as something with a truly infinite consciousness embraces any and all forms of creation, including our present predicament, and reverts back to endlessness/nothingness.

[RunningDeer]

Where did you read that? It is thought provoking :)

Hello Ray :wave:

Here’s a short list of philosopher, sage, teacher(s) from my days of reflection that speak to that:


Nisargadatta Maharaj, (quotes (https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/172897.Nisargadatta_Maharaj))

Eknath Easwaran translations of the trilogy: “The Dhammapada”, “The Upanishads”, “The Bhagavad Gita”, (quotes (http://ascendingthehills.blogspot.com/p/eknath-easwaran-quotes.html))

Sri Ramana Maharishi (quotes (https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/201908.Ramana_Maharshi))

Dr. David R. Hawkins, (quotes (http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/11784.David_R_Hawkins))

Mooji, (quotes (https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/4127451.Mooji))

If I had to pick a favorite, it'd be a toss up between Nisargadatta Maharaja and David Hawkins but for different reasons in what they passed along.

With heart,
Paula

[Finefeather]

But in terms on Consciousness "Dualism" refers to the apparent separation between Subject and Object, as if there is a Perceiver who perceives "things", or a Thinker who thinks thoughts ...
Just to ensure you that I did not miss the "Perceiver" and "Thinker" idea... They are one and the same because individual consciousness is the extent of both the "Perceiver" and the "Thinker" unless you are telepathic and perceiving the thoughts of others... and even then perception would be governed by the extent of your consciousness to understand the perception.

No one can perceive something which is higher than their consciousness permits.

Oh, but the point I am making is that 'you' are NOT your thoughts, perceptions, feelings and sensations ... 'you' are the KNOWING which knows them !

It's the Ego (the false self) that likes to take ownership of such things and tell stories about them eh ? LOL :wink:
The ego is NOT a false Self... you are denying your own existence if you think so.
Everyone is an ego...an 'I'...and this 'ego' is the Self... incarnate at it's current stage of growth.

Humans have this ignorant idea that they need to get rid of the ego when it's the same as saying "I must annihilate myself"... what is required is that egoism be controlled... and that will come naturally as they grow consciously and see the truth and realise the nature of unity and brotherhood and love.

The ego has been the result of such misinterpretation and denial that when confronted about their egoism...humans will say things like "Oh! it's not really me" when in fact it's exactly you.

The term 'the ego' has been used simply to illustrate the general state of humans... in esoterics the name given for 'the ego' is the "First Self" being one of three states or levels of "Selves" which we go through in the solar realm...the "First Self" is the human kingdom stage... the "Second Self" is when we advance out of the human stage and into the 5th kingdom... and the "Third Self" is when we advance into the 6th kingdom...After this there are still 6 more Cosmic levels.

Unfortunately...again...misinterpretation has confused this "I" this "Self" with "ego" which was just the closest word the interpreters could come up with... and I guess it has turned out to be a good one for humans.

I suggest you research the constitution of man... because you are a bit shaky on the reality of just who and what you really are. :)

[Finefeather]

Oh, 'I' know this is probably very likely to upset 'you' however since 1925 Quantum Mechanics / Physics has made clear no objective reality is possible !

You will be surprised how much it takes to upset me :)

Anyway I am not getting into another debate about "reality not been objective"... just be careful when you cross the road... it hurts when a bus rides over you... and you can subjectively think about that :)

[Finefeather]

Where did you read that? It is thought provoking :)

Hello Ray :wave:

Here’s a short list of philosopher, sage, teacher(s) from my days of reflection that speak to that:


Nisargadatta Maharaj, (quotes (https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/172897.Nisargadatta_Maharaj))

Eknath Easwaran translations of the trilogy: “The Dhammapada”, “The Upanishads”, “The Bhagavad Gita”, (quotes (http://ascendingthehills.blogspot.com/p/eknath-easwaran-quotes.html))

Sri Ramana Maharishi (quotes (https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/201908.Ramana_Maharshi))

Dr. David R. Hawkins, (quotes (http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/11784.David_R_Hawkins))

Mooji, (quotes (https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/4127451.Mooji))

If I had to pick a favorite, it'd be a toss up between Nisargadatta Maharaja and David Hawkins but for different reasons in what they passed along.

With heart,
Paula
Hi Paula
I was just asking for one specific idea regarding "separation between Subject and Object" and don't need dozens of quotes by your favourites :)
What was your intention in giving me this extensive bit of homework?

Thank you anyway
Love
Ray

[RunningDeer]

What was your intention in giving me this extensive bit of homework?

Thank you anyway
Love
Ray

Intention? Homework? My heart just went sad...

♡

[Clear Light]

But in terms on Consciousness "Dualism" refers to the apparent separation between Subject and Object, as if there is a Perceiver who perceives "things", or a Thinker who thinks thoughts ...
Where did you read that? It is thought provoking :)

Oh, well occasionally I can put together some words into a reasonably coherent sounding sentence without having to make use of quotes you know ... LOL :wink:

[greybeard]

Where did you read that? It is thought provoking :)

Hello Ray :wave:

Here’s a short list of philosopher, sage, teacher(s) from my days of reflection that speak to that:


Nisargadatta Maharaj, (quotes (https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/172897.Nisargadatta_Maharaj))

Eknath Easwaran translations of the trilogy: “The Dhammapada”, “The Upanishads”, “The Bhagavad Gita”, (quotes (http://ascendingthehills.blogspot.com/p/eknath-easwaran-quotes.html))

Sri Ramana Maharishi (quotes (https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/201908.Ramana_Maharshi))

Dr. David R. Hawkins, (quotes (http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/11784.David_R_Hawkins))

Mooji, (quotes (https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/4127451.Mooji))

If I had to pick a favorite, it'd be a toss up between Nisargadatta Maharaja and David Hawkins but for different reasons in what they passed along.

With heart,
Paula

Ray--- Paula has given you in a moment, what took me years of study/ research to find.
I have seen all the quotes in their entirety before---spaced years apart.

For me its simple, either I accept first hand account or not.

I chose first hand with discernment.
I cross checked statements, one Sage against another--there is a commonality in what they express--"the ego is a "apparent" separation device, there is no individual separate person, that’s the illusion--the ego also just a thought " that’s my take.
An intellectual reasoning is not it.

You are welcome to discount what Paula has posted.
Welcome to many more years searching for what you already are.

Chris

[Finefeather]

Where did you read that? It is thought provoking :)

Hello Ray :wave:

Here’s a short list of philosopher, sage, teacher(s) from my days of reflection that speak to that:


Nisargadatta Maharaj, (quotes (https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/172897.Nisargadatta_Maharaj))

Eknath Easwaran translations of the trilogy: “The Dhammapada”, “The Upanishads”, “The Bhagavad Gita”, (quotes (http://ascendingthehills.blogspot.com/p/eknath-easwaran-quotes.html))

Sri Ramana Maharishi (quotes (https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/201908.Ramana_Maharshi))

Dr. David R. Hawkins, (quotes (http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/11784.David_R_Hawkins))

Mooji, (quotes (https://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/4127451.Mooji))

If I had to pick a favorite, it'd be a toss up between Nisargadatta Maharaja and David Hawkins but for different reasons in what they passed along.

With heart,
Paula

Ray--- Paula has given you in a moment, what took me years of study/ research to find.
I have seen all the quotes in their entirety before---spaced years apart.

For me its simple, either I accept first hand account or not.
I chose first hand with discernment.
I cross checked statements, one Sage against another--there is a commonality in what they express--"the ego is a separation device, there is no individual separate person, that’s the illusion " that’s my take.
An intellectual reasoning is not it.

You are welcome to discount what Paula has posted.
Welcome to many more years searching for what you already are.

Chris
So I ask for a specific thing and when inundated with quotes from sages I have no interest in... for this thread... I get emotional responses...where I clearly was been light hearted... did you not see the smiley Paula and Chris?

Then Chris you start rambling on as if my life depends on what I have been given to read... and how you know that this is the stuff I must read....

Chris you remind me of the 'Born Again Christians'... fanatical and overbearing... and when I present something to you... the first thing you do is respond by quoting me sage after sage...

You, Chris, don't have to tell me how to respond to Paula... and I am surprised by her emotional response... she should know better... but maybe I just caught her on a bad day... So...

Paula... if you are reading this... I apologize for appearing to snub your gift... You should know my respect for you by now.

It seems to me that there is not a lot of room for me here on this forum... there is just too much difference between my thinking and your quoting Chris... so I think I will consider my options and probably pack my things and move on from Avalon.

Take care all

[Clear Light]

It seems to me that there is not a lot of room for me here on this forum... there is just too much difference between my thinking and your quoting Chris... so I think I will consider my options and probably pack my things and move on from Avalon.

Take care all

Hmmm ... but surely there's room enough for all of us eh ? I don't know but maybe you could start a thread about Hylozoism and see what interest it generates ...

[IChingUChing]

Who's having an emotional response now then:shielddeflect:

[Finefeather]

Who's having an emotional response now then:shielddeflect:
You have a lot to learn about emotional responses... do you think everyone who want to make a decision is having an emotional breakdown?... have you never heard of rational decision making and planning?
I'm also actually sitting here having super and deciding which bus I should take tomorrow...I guess I never new I was having an emotional response every time I choose a bus.

[IChingUChing]

Finefeather maybe you can answer me the following:

How did you leap from "Subject and object?" to "I assume that you mean Subjective and Objective". Not the same things at all.

Clear Blue Skies was talking about dualism and gave the common example of subject/object. Non-dualism or advaita means "not two" and nothing more. It does not mean "one". So it would seem that subject/object is a clear easy example for dualism - i.e. a supposed subject sensing a supposed seperate object.

Full Definition of dualism

1
: a theory that considers reality to consist of two irreducible elements or modes

2
: the quality or state of being dual or of having a dual nature

3
a : a doctrine that the universe is under the dominion of two opposing principles one of which is good and the other evil b : a view of human beings as constituted of two irreducible elements (as matter and spirit)

Within a couple of further jumps you are at "action follows thought". Well, maybe or maybe not but what's that got do with the price of eggs?

Thanks!

[IChingUChing]

Glad to see you're still on board Finefeather and haven't yet got on that bus which could run down one of the other members here;)

I'm all for being rational and for me that would be using reason. In post 67 above you say:

The term 'the ego' has been used simply to illustrate the general state of humans... in esoterics the name given for 'the ego' is the "First Self" being one of three states or levels of "Selves" which we go through in the solar realm...the "First Self" is the human kingdom stage... the "Second Self" is when we advance out of the human stage and into the 5th kingdom... and the "Third Self" is when we advance into the 6th kingdom...After this there are still 6 more Cosmic levels.

I have no idea whether this is true or not - do you? if you say yes then please provide me with rational proof.

In general in this thread, I see most posters coming up against the usual problems of language to describe what is beyond language and that is to do with non-duality which is what reality apparently is.

If we want to try and use reason to look in to this, a very good starting point is cause and effect. No thing exists which doesn't have parts or attributes so all things are just part of the causal process (or chain if you like). The apparent appearance of a thing, can be seen as a temporary illusion resulting from the temporary coming together of parts and attributes giving the impression of that supposed "thing".

The fact that things only exist as a result of this causal chain means that they in themselves have no seperate existence. Just as they cannot exist without the environment in which they exist - if they were identical with their environment, they would not exist so their (environment and thing in it) only existence is in mutually arising as distinct from each other and thus mutually giving existence to each other. Independently neither exists, together both do and do not exist. This is the paradox.

Even if there are 12 levels of selves or 100 or 1,000, this has nothing to do with a rational search for reality which is a search for ultimate truth. In any one of those 12 levels of selves, cause and effect must apply. But we can never know about them until we are there and then there is here so actually we can only ask questions about here and now. That for me would be rational.

[Finefeather]

Finefeather maybe you can answer me the following:

How did you leap from "Subject and object?" to "I assume that you mean Subjective and Objective". Not the same things at all.

Clear Blue Skies was talking about dualism and gave the common example of subject/object. Non-dualism or advaita means "not two" and nothing more. It does not mean "one". So it would seem that subject/object is a clear easy example for dualism - i.e. a supposed subject sensing a supposed seperate object.
Well my idea of dualism is not the same as yours or Clear Blue Skies… so I was not thinking along the Advaita lines… but now you have enlightened me… which is why I said “I assume...”...and which should have been CBSs job to tell me I was going offtrack... but he never did so...

I am aware that subject/object is simply attachment a person may have with objects external to him/her… and that...from this point of view... Non-duality is seen by some as an experience in which there is no separation between subject and object… which then becomes what?

As you say that “not two” does not mean “one”… maybe you would like to explain how you understand that.


Full Definition of dualism

1
: a theory that considers reality to consist of two irreducible elements or modes

2
: the quality or state of being dual or of having a dual nature

3
a : a doctrine that the universe is under the dominion of two opposing principles one of which is good and the other evil b : a view of human beings as constituted of two irreducible elements (as matter and spirit)
Here you are assuming that this definition of dualism is universal just as Christians think their interpretation of the bible is universal… you seem to be unaware that there are hundreds of definitions of duality…and non duality.

This is why I stated there is no such thing as duality (non duality) and gave some dualism which I have come across and showed how each opposite is dependent on the other.


Within a couple of further jumps you are at "action follows thought". Well, maybe or maybe not but what's that got do with the price of eggs?
So now if we get to the price of eggs now… you should be able to realise that one of the things some people… not you…. consider to be dualism is objectivity and subjectivity… even CBS does because he somewhere above started going into quantum physics... he sound to me somewhere between some philosophies... anyway, and so I also use 'action'… which is an objective thing… with thought… which is a subjective thing to further illustrate my point.

You cannot expect people to know exactly what your idea is in a world where such differences are present… if you want to do that then it would have been nice if CBS gave me just a little clue of what he was referring to...

I do not believe in Indian philosophy and it seems as if anyone does then they are considered behind in their thinking.

So the conclusion is that we both do not believe in dualism... but we have vastly different reasoning... I think I will just leave it at that because I will get no where here...

They say that you reap what you sow but it seams that I have been sowing with plastic seeds on deaf ears... and to think they warned me about this:)

[RunningDeer]

Paula... if you are reading this... I apologize for appearing to snub your gift... You should know my respect for you by now.
Dear Ray,

I just got back from an oil change...and getting ready to head out for my daily walk. I hope I'm not late.


You should know my respect for you by now.

Absolutely, Ray. The feeling is mutual and why I spent almost an hour on my post to you. That and it was based on your recent correspondence to Chris somewhere on the forum about looking into Dr. David Hawkin’s work. I saw it as an opportunity to share something with you. It’s not often I can do this based on your deep knowledge on understandings that I don’t have.

If you must leave…leave only because it’s time. I vote, "Don't go." Please know that you will be sorely missed.

Love,
Paula

[Finefeather]

I have no idea whether this is true or not - do you? if you say yes then please provide me with rational proof.

Well my answer is yes... I know it is true... and I wonder how long you think it took me to realise that? 10 years...50 years... 1000 years or 1 million years?

So now you think I should just provide proof in one post so you can wonder off and sleep comfy because you know the truth now?

How does proof of life come to us... from a book? from a forum? or from many thousands of lives?

[IChingUChing]

Thanks for your responses Finefeather! Glad you stuck around.

Sleep well!

[Finefeather]

Paula... if you are reading this... I apologize for appearing to snub your gift... You should know my respect for you by now.
Dear Ray,

I just got back from an oil change...and getting ready to head out for my daily walk. I hope I'm not late.


You should know my respect for you by now.

Absolutely, Ray. The feeling is mutual and why I spent almost an hour on my post to you. That and it was based on your recent correspondence to Chris somewhere on the forum about looking into Dr. David Hawkin’s work. I saw it as an opportunity to share something with you. It’s not often I can do this based on your deep knowledge on understandings that I don’t have.

If you must leave…leave only because it’s time. I vote, "Don't go." Please know that you will be sorely missed.

Love,
Paula
Paula
Thank you for your post.
I really am not looking for public praise and attention...I am far more comfortable been a no body... but when I gave my name out years ago I guess I did not know quite where this would get to...

I am sorry that you have experienced disappointment and I hope that you might see that you could have given me your hard spent gift at a more suitable time... I will browse through and read and take note of what you wanted to share.

I think my time has come to an end... I find it difficult to post my knowledge here these days because when truth is swept aside without a thought it becomes my duty to withdraw... truth should not be abused.

I have much to do before I finish with this old body and now is the time I guess.

Take care and my love
Ray

[IChingUChing]

As you say that “not two” does not mean “one”… maybe you would like to explain how you understand that.

To be perfectly direct and honest - I don't understand it!!!!!!:ROFL: and I think that is what it is pointing to - reality being "not-two" cannot be understood with the conceptual mind. One would still be within the bounds of conceptual thought and that's about all I can say.



Full Definition of dualism

1
: a theory that considers reality to consist of two irreducible elements or modes

2
: the quality or state of being dual or of having a dual nature

3
a : a doctrine that the universe is under the dominion of two opposing principles one of which is good and the other evil b : a view of human beings as constituted of two irreducible elements (as matter and spirit)

Here you are assuming that this definition of dualism is universal just as Christians think their interpretation of the bible is universal… you seem to be unaware that there are hundreds of definitions of duality…and non duality.

My mistake here - I copied and pasted from a dictionary and obviously "full definition of dualism" is a bit presumptuous!



So the conclusion is that we both do not believe in dualism... but we have vastly different reasoning... I think I will just leave it at that because I will get no where here...

They say that you reap what you sow but it seams that I have been sowing with plastic seeds on deaf ears... and to think they warned me about this:)

I'm still in dualism for better or for worse. I search for truth and reality with all the tools I have available but dualism stucks like glue. Should I ever cross over, I'll post a quick description which I'm sure will also fall on deaf ears too so for now I too will go and eat my dinner :-)

[RunningDeer]

Paula
Thank you for your post.
I really am not looking for public praise and attention...I am far more comfortable been a no body... but when I gave my name out years ago I guess I did not know quite where this would get to...

I am sorry that you have experienced disappointment and I hope that you might see that you could have given me your hard spent gift at a more suitable time... I will browse through and read and take note of what you wanted to share.

I think my time has come to an end... I find it difficult to post my knowledge here these days because when truth is swept aside without a thought it becomes my duty to withdraw... truth should not be abused.

I have much to do before I finish with this old body and now is the time I guess.

Take care and my love
Ray
Drats, Ray, no profound words are coming up. Only a sincere repeat that I'll miss you.

I understand the much to do before you finish. Know that my disappointment fizzled about 20 minutes after I posted. And by comparison to what you live and recall, the authors I passed along will probably be too simplistic to you.

You take care as well. http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/Recovered/smileys-hugs-765537_zpso1eaenyy.gif

Love,
Paula xo

[greybeard]

I can not apologise for being consistent or believing testimony that is first hand coming from many.
I have not claimed I am right--just shared my understanding, right or wrong, of this time and shown how I came to the understanding with respect for those I have listened to.

I would hope on reflection that you stay on Avalon Ray.

My disagreement with your rebuttal of what I posted was never personal or lacking respect for you as a person.
Just lack off agreement between two friends.

What is important is intention and I never doubted your intention or integrity

With love
Chris

[Flash]

If you ever go Ray, I must tell you that I consider myself extremely blessed to have met you on this forum, and extremely blessed to have met someone else with similar knowledge in my daily life. I do thing that very few on this planet have this opportunity twice. I thank you for it. I know I have been blessed. Up to me now.

I do see how much resistance your input sometimes provokes, and I do see as well how much respect and acknowledgement, plus desire to learn, many here have come up with. (Just me little not knowing much provoked resistance, just imagine your input lolll).

I do not pretend to know where is the balance in between awakening resistance that makes it impossible to learn for the would be learner, and crossing through those resistances and having real learning happens. All I can tell is that my resistance was as strong as most here a few years ago - a thick fog of ego and fear, including intellectualism - until the heart opened up (and still in progress).

But i do think that some suggestions here are good, amongst them the suggestion to have your thread on hylozoic or on Rayoic ;):flower: Which sounds and feel like heroic at times. That those who want or can follow your teaching do.

You are the master to decide on this

With all my love and genuine appreciation

Flash "C"






Paula
Thank you for your post.
I really am not looking for public praise and attention...I am far more comfortable been a no body... but when I gave my name out years ago I guess I did not know quite where this would get to...

I am sorry that you have experienced disappointment and I hope that you might see that you could have given me your hard spent gift at a more suitable time... I will browse through and read and take note of what you wanted to share.

I think my time has come to an end... I find it difficult to post my knowledge here these days because when truth is swept aside without a thought it becomes my duty to withdraw... truth should not be abused.

I have much to do before I finish with this old body and now is the time I guess.

Take care and my love
Ray
Drats, Ray, no profound words are coming up. Only a sincere repeat that I'll miss you.

I understand the much to do before you finish. Know that my disappointment fizzled about 20 minutes after I posted. And by comparison to what you live and recall, the authors I passed along will probably be too simplistic to you.

You take care as well. http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/Recovered/smileys-hugs-765537_zpso1eaenyy.gif

Love,
Paula xo

[ulli]

Glad to see Paula and Ray back on one page.

But having just seen similar discussions on Trainee Human's thread with Flash perceiving misconceptions on his part, and expressing her dismay, while ignoring his intent, or the white flag being offered, I'm wondering why we all can't get to better understanding of where each of us is coming from.
And I concluded that it has to do with our search, and attachment to the values and beliefs we each have acquired of our journey. And how each new presentation ought to be placed on a mind shelf for a while, and perhaps take some time to digest what we have just read.


These debates have been going on for as long as I've been on Internet forums, with non-duality teachings being defended to the point where forums vanish, such as guru ratings, or non-duality salon, and people end up leaving, or the owner closes.
The opposite of what they initially set out to find. Non-duality means unity, after all.

With so many different teachings now circulating these forums it is no different than the Christian versus Muslem versus Judaism rifts.

Many people of the younger generation have decided to escape these conflicts by becoming atheist, just as many Avalonians want to discuss only direct experience, rather than ascended masters, or gurus, or ancient teachings, and the books written by them or by their followers. And even direct experiences, such as whistle blower accounts are attacked because of paranoia that they might be disinformation, coming from shadow government shills.

The answer is to slow down, and make a pact with oneself, to give others the benefit of the doubt, and even expect that people may need to carry their mental baggage for a few years longer.
We can't all arrive at the highest truth all at the same time.

I got upset once when I felt myself attacked by a member because I had mentioned that Moraviev had plagiarized Gurdjieff's work.
So I decided to stay away from debates about so-called higher knowledge teachings, but also from that member, knowing that they can be volatile.

But having seen that Finefeather who to me has clearly seen the Absolute gets regularly confronted by those who
are not willing to even hear him out, and reject his posts over and over, I need to say this:
Let's all try and allow each other the right to express our stuff.
It would sadden me to know that he has been made to feel ineffective.

Finefeather, never forget that there are many lurkers here who might benefit from your wisdom.
Don't leave, please.

[Clear Light]

Very interesting, would it be possible that the dualism of objectivity and subjectivity work both ways then, and not necessarily that one precedes the other?

Kind of like a table as opposed to a linear point A to point B arrangement

Oh, well, in keeping to the "Non-Dual" theme of this thread, conventional logic says I (the human named "Simon") as the Subject "sees" Objects such as "Table" and "Chair" (a.k.a "Things") ... But that's because of our default identification with the Brain-Body-Mind which gives rise to the illusory sense of separate self (or Ego).

However via such techniques as Meditation and / or Self-Enquiry we can realise the falseness of such identification when we directly experience the varying streams of sense-contacts (thoughts, feelings, perceptions, sensations etc) without the filter of 'I' ... which thus undermines that Egoic identification until it collapses because it is finally seen to be "empty".

Now one is Aware and doesn't reify such perceptions.

Furthermore, non-dual traditions like to ask the question "Who is Aware?" and with enough perseverance there is a deeper realisation of one's true identity, probably because one no longer identifies with the body, as one has seen the space of "Knowing Awareness" is primary with the body as secondary.

It's like the "mainstream" scientific worldview has it all back to front believing the "Universe" came first, then "stars", "planets", "humans" and just recently we became Conscious LOL ... Yet such a progression is simply a series of Conceptual Constructions that are just as "empty" as our other perceptions !!!

This may sound completely crazy, like non-sense, but perhaps we are all finally waking up to the falseness of Materialism which denies the fundamental role Consciousness plays eh ? :wink:

Disclaimer(s)

Oh, I must state the above is certainly not a "final answer" nor should it be taken as such, nor it should it be taken as "truth" without one's own investigation :biggrin:
As is mentioned by other Avalonians : "I am a work in progress" LOL :ROFL:

[ZooLife]

psssst....

hey, you over there....

Dualism is pretending.


Nonduality, as a concept, is like the number zero, a placeholder.

Hold my place, I will be right back, I got to go pee.

http://memecrunch.com/meme/3W3AN/gotta-pee/image.jpg?w=640&c=1

(by the LOOK of it, one might draw the conclusion I wasn't serious)

[Pam]

Finefeather, never forget that there are many lurkers here who might benefit from your wisdom.
Don't leave, please. Quote from Ulli


What you have to say here, Ulli, is really important. Sometimes we forget about the nonmembers that are learning from these threads. It is my contention that their are some of the brightest and freshest minds on the planet debating on these threads, and I for one have learned so much. Finefeather, I bet you had no idea that I have learned much from you. And if that is the case, there are many others that have as well. So please hang in there, you are appreciated. In fact, you are all appreciated by me and the many lurkers that for whatever reason have not signed on as members.

[RunningDeer]

post deleted (redundant)

[Rich]

So I'm not dropping the I, I'm reforming it.

I toyed around a bit with being a different me a few years ago and the circumstantial differences it made, as Bashar said there are an infinite
number of versions of you, the thing is, if we can manipulate the 'me' than we must also be beyond it.
I think that is also how spontaneous healing happens, supposedly matter refreshes countless of times per second so one can choose a different body and personality.
Very theoretical... but my main point is that if we can see the person/body changing what is observing that change?

[Innocent Warrior]

So I'm not dropping the I, I'm reforming it.

I toyed around a bit with being a different me a few years ago and the circumstantial differences it made, as Bashar said there are an infinite
number of versions of you, the thing is, if we can manipulate the 'me' than we must also be beyond it.
I think that is also how spontaneous healing happens, supposedly matter refreshes countless of times per second so one can choose a different body and personality.
Very theoretical... but my main point is that if we can see the person/body changing what is observing that change?

I just read my post from which you quoted me, wow, I was still so enthusiastic.

Anyway, answer to your question, there's lots of different ways to say it I suppose but I'll go with - me.

Have you tried observing the observer? It's a pretty powerful and quick way to quiten the mind.

[Rich]

Have you tried observing the observer? It's a pretty powerful and quick way to quiten the mind.
Sometimes. Mostly I just try to do nothing and make no effort.

[sunwings]

ne7-wnnWqFY

Youtube comment

My life has been so peaceful by following the teaching of Thich Nhat Hanh (sic)

Does anyone follow Thich Nhat Hanh?

First time I have heard of him.