Risveglio on anarcho-capitalism, Marxism, agorism

[risveglio]

Any place for those of us that don't want to be governed?


[Mod-edit: this and the following debating posts have been moved from The Reset Button (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?44014-The-Reset-Button-Movement) thread]

[Dennis Leahy]

Any place for those of us that don't want to be governed?No. There is no nation on Earth with no governance. That is (currently) a fantasy.

Personally, I'd love to see US citizens take over governance away from the psychopathic elite, but maybe for anarcho-libertarians, the thought of a real republic - and especially a democratic republic - is simply so scary that you choose to fight against citizen-based governance in favor of allowing the psychopathic militarists, banksters, and corporatists to continue to rule you. "The devil you know."

If there are a whole bunch of anarcho-libertarians in the US (not just "by mouth", but that would actually attempt to live with no governance), I'd be in favor of setting aside a chunk of land of appropriate size and letting them try it. Of course, that will never happen while the psychopaths rule.

Anarcho-libertarianism might work, but I have to admit, I cannot visualize it with a real life mix of humans - sick, poor, mentally ill to varying degrees, selfish, bigoted, religious zealots, etc. mixed in with the enlightened, compassionate anarcho-libertarians that probably exist.

I know anarcho-libertarians that believe that when the economy collapses, that government will collapse, and the jackboot will simply vanish. These are people who have absolutely no idea who they are dealing with. The ONLY chance that anarcho-libertarians will ever have would be AFTER a citizen takeover of the government. Think about it.

[risveglio]

Any place for those of us that don't want to be governed?No. There is no nation on Earth with no governance. That is (currently) a fantasy.

Personally, I'd love to see US citizens take over governance away from the psychopathic elite, but maybe for anarcho-libertarians, the thought of a real republic - and especially a democratic republic - is simply so scary that you choose to fight against citizen-based governance in favor of allowing the psychopathic militarists, banksters, and corporatists to continue to rule you. "The devil you know."

If there are a whole bunch of anarcho-libertarians in the US (not just "by mouth", but that would actually attempt to live with no governance), I'd be in favor of setting aside a chunk of land of appropriate size and letting them try it. Of course, that will never happen while the psychopaths rule.

Anarcho-libertarianism might work, but I have to admit, I cannot visualize it with a real life mix of humans - sick, poor, mentally ill to varying degrees, selfish, bigoted, religious zealots, etc. mixed in with the enlightened, compassionate anarcho-libertarians that probably exist.

I know anarcho-libertarians that believe that when the economy collapses, that government will collapse, and the jackboot will simply vanish. These are people who have absolutely no idea who they are dealing with. The ONLY chance that anarcho-libertarians will ever have would be AFTER a citizen takeover of the government. Think about it.

A democratic-republic. Anything with democracy in it should be scary to anyone that has ever went against the crowd. It was a nasty word for our founders. It's mind boggling to me that God warned the Israelites against being governed. Everything he warned them about came true and thousands of years later, we are still begging to be ruled.

As you can't visualize a world where self-ownership and the NAP are the law of the land, I can't visualize any form of government that does not turn into an oligarchy and I have history on my side. Maybe you just need to read the right people, like Molinari, Bastiat, Rothbard, Spooner and you would get an understanding of why its really the only way.

Fortunately for me, modern day anarchists/minarchists seem to be far more popular than the reset button. I mean, liberty.me alone has thousands of members, mostly well educated young people. Tucker, Rose, Kokesh, Rockwell, Woods all have huge followings.

If your plan ever finds a way to include all people, then I will reconsider, but right now it seems like another route that leads to the same horrible destination. I just wish there was a way for me not to see the thread at all since those of you that yearn to be governed really confuse me.

[Dennis Leahy]

Any place for those of us that don't want to be governed?No. There is no nation on Earth with no governance. That is (currently) a fantasy.

Personally, I'd love to see US citizens take over governance away from the psychopathic elite, but maybe for anarcho-libertarians, the thought of a real republic - and especially a democratic republic - is simply so scary that you choose to fight against citizen-based governance in favor of allowing the psychopathic militarists, banksters, and corporatists to continue to rule you. "The devil you know."

If there are a whole bunch of anarcho-libertarians in the US (not just "by mouth", but that would actually attempt to live with no governance), I'd be in favor of setting aside a chunk of land of appropriate size and letting them try it. Of course, that will never happen while the psychopaths rule.

Anarcho-libertarianism might work, but I have to admit, I cannot visualize it with a real life mix of humans - sick, poor, mentally ill to varying degrees, selfish, bigoted, religious zealots, etc. mixed in with the enlightened, compassionate anarcho-libertarians that probably exist.

I know anarcho-libertarians that believe that when the economy collapses, that government will collapse, and the jackboot will simply vanish. These are people who have absolutely no idea who they are dealing with. The ONLY chance that anarcho-libertarians will ever have would be AFTER a citizen takeover of the government. Think about it.

A democratic-republic. Anything with democracy in it should be scary to anyone that has ever went against the crowd. It was a nasty word for our founders. It's mind boggling to me that God warned the Israelites against being governed. Everything he warned them about came true and thousands of years later, we are still begging to be ruled.

As you can't visualize a world where self-ownership and the NAP are the law of the land, I can't visualize any form of government that does not turn into an oligarchy and I have history on my side. Maybe you just need to read the right people, like Molinari, Bastiat, Rothbard, Spooner and you would get an understanding of why its really the only way.

Fortunately for me, modern day anarchists/minarchists seem to be far more popular than the reset button. I mean, liberty.me alone has thousands of members, mostly well educated young people. Tucker, Rose, Kokesh, Rockwell, Woods all have huge followings.

If your plan ever finds a way to include all people, then I will reconsider, but right now it seems like another route that leads to the same horrible destination. I just wish there was a way for me not to see the thread at all since those of you that yearn to be governed really confuse me.

As far as I know, there are only theoretical anarchists, and none of you have a plan to actually get there. The "plan" I most often see from anarchists is to wait for the economic collapse, believing that the global rulers (that also rule the US) and their armies and police will simply disappear. This is beyond fantasy, and I have history to prove it.

There has never (in modern history, that I am aware of) been a government of the people - especially one that deliberately excludes the psychopathic oligarchs. There is no history to base your accusation that a true government of the people would devolve into oligarchy.

I posted the following elsewhere, and an anarchist friend replied: "still mob rule." I'll post that post here, and my reply to her:

====================
Success with The Reset Button Movement would mean:

● US citizens would have 100% control of the entire electoral paradigm
● The Elite would have 0% control of the entire electoral paradigm
● There would be no political parties. None. (Every candidate a true independent)
● Every current office holder would step down, and not be eligible for any office again
● Mass media would be mandated to give every candidate equal time and prominence
● The entire election system would change to strictly public funding (extremely modest funding)
● People with dual (or more) citizenship could not run for office
● No one could run for office that is on corporate board or in corporate management, or have any stock ownership
● Elected officials could not take a corporate job or buy stock for 5 years after their term ends
● Every public office, elected and appointed, would become single term
● An in-depth written response to two dozen (citizen-authored) critical issues would be required to run for office
● The written responses would be used to measure elected officials' actions
● Elected officials deemed to deviate substantially from their written word would be subject to recall, possibly even "freezing" all duties
● A randomization element would replace primary elections, trimming the field
● 10 candidates would be on the ballot for President, 10 each for Senate and House

That's the highlights, but the bottom line would be that a "government of the people, by the people, and for the people" would be created for the first time in US history, and the Elite (financial elite and power elite) - that currently have complete control over elections and election outcomes - would have no control over anything in the electoral paradigm.

Or, you can watch TV, fixate on celebrities and sports, bury your head in the sand, and solidify your cognitive dissonance by refusing to even try to make The Reset Button Movement successful, and wallow in complicity to militarism and permanent imperialist war, banksterism and permanent financial enslavement, corporatism and permanent ecocide, loss of rights, loss of even a dream of freedom, and a guarantee that the USA, Inc. would remain the most malevolent government in Earth history.

Your choice.

Choose wisely.

http://www.ResetButtonMovement.org (https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ResetButtonMovement.org%2F&h=aAQFrqok3)
====================

Friend: "still mob rule."

Me: Correct. Slightly different mob, I'd say. This time, the mob would actually include you and me and would exclude (as best we could) the psychopathic militarists, banksters, and corporatists. If you don't see that as an exponential improvement, then you don't really know the character or agenda of who is currently ruling you.

If The Reset Button was successful, if there really are enough anarcho-libertarians to form a country, I'd be supportive of secession of enough land/states to let anarcho-libertarians form a country. Without some sort of a full takeover by citizens first (such as The Reset Button), the chances that anarchists will ever do anything but talk, wish, bitch, and dream are zero point zero percent.

Friend: " I am not saying we don't need a revolution - but why carry on with 'countries' and 'nations' and governments and all the other illusions?"

Me:
Because the step from what we now have (anarcho-capitalism for 1% and slavery for 99%) to anarchism is impossible - or at least I am unaware of any plan and strategy to get there directly. My gut feeling is that maybe 2% to 5% of the US population - at most - would be interested in actually living anarchism. Of those, I doubt very many are mature enough and self-controlled enough that you would even want them as anarchist neighbors. I do know a few anarchists that are, so I know its not impossible (but quite frankly, these exceptional people could live under any form of government and still be the same great people that they are.)

Me, I am a socialist (the real meaning of the word), and would choose to live real socialism for the social benefits of a cooperative society that I simply cannot envision under anarchy. I am an actual volunteer, and I know from experience that most people are way too selfish to volunteer - and would not provide the money or manpower to create or maintain any "commons" infrastructure beyond 15th century technology. I do share some anarchist philosophy, and want citizens to be vastly "de-regulated" (thousands of laws to overturn), no forced compliance (vaccines and schooling, for example), the end of all surveillance, the end of all fees, licenses, and all taxes other than a small graduated tax on income (the "state" and commons infrastructure maintenance would need money), the "cage" (as Larken Rose likes to call it), a.k.a. "jail", would only be for violent criminals, all foreign military bases closed, most domestic military bases closed, etc.

Anarchists make a huge mistake when they lump every non-anarchist together. In reality, most "statists" want as much freedom and as little regulation as possible. And, truth be told, as soon as you add real-world conflict, selfishness, greed, predatory behavior, and even sociopathy into the equation, a real-world anarchist actually living anarchism would find the need for some behavioral regulation, methinks.

[risveglio]

As far as I know, there are only theoretical anarchists, and none of you have a plan to actually get there.

I probably should just opt out here because this statement proves you are not up to date. There are plenty of plans and a ton of successes. Most involve agorism and are very subtle. It actually makes up a decent sized portion of the people that have supposedly opted out and no longer are looking for work. It's not that they are not working, just that they are living outside the system. You also have a bit of a distorted view on people in my opinion. I think with more freedom, you would see a ton more charity as you saw in the US before the oligarchy really kicked in. Read Einstein's biography and how shocked he was about the enormous amount of good will coming from the US.

Maybe if you didn't use such disgusting words like socialism and democracy, I would see things differently. Problem is that I have witnessed the failures of national socialism, fascism, communism, and socialism and don't see how anyone that is being honest with themselves can think any form of collectivism could possibly work. There are far more examples of limited or no government succeeding than there is of socialism doing anything but leading to a collapse of its economy. (ie, Brazil, Argentina, Venezuela, Cuba)

[Dennis Leahy]

OK, opt out. If The Reset Button never takes off (fails), then I hope some anarchist plans succeeds. ANYTHING is better that allowing the psychopaths to continue ruling. (Interesting that you declare that people are collectively inherently good as an argument towards anarchy, but these same people are inherently a bad mob collectively. hmmmmmm....)

I would be a good anarchist - I just don't believe most people would be. Not that people don't have inherent goodness, but an anarchist society would quickly be massively overwhelmed with all of what encompasses a healthy society, and most anarchists would opt to "hole up" on their ranch and avert their eyes to it. Please name ONE modern, truly anarchist society that I can study to find out that I am wrong. I'm not talking about a society of hand-picked individuals who are all compassionate, enlightened beings (of course they could do it), but rather a real mix of humanity including predators, weak, lazy, and mentally ill.

I promise not to lump anarchism in with anarcho-capitalism (and all other forms of anarchism that we know for a fact lead to oligarchy, as in what you are living under right now), and would hope you would stop insinuating that real socialism equates to the Orwellian use of the word "socialist" as in totalitarianism like the USSR.

Again, the bottom line for the subject of The Reset Button Movement is that anarchists will NEVER experience what you want to experience, because there is no straight path from US anarcho-capitalism/facism/militarism/banksterism/oligarchy to anarchy. You are "biting off your nose to spite your face" by not supporting a citizen takeover of government - even as a first step to YOUR goal.

p.s. Cuba is communist and has a dictator (softened now), and countries that economically collapse all have one thing in common: globalist central banking - they do not really control their own economy, the anarcho-capitalist globalists do. Read some of John Perkins work.)

p.s. 2: The other thing that those countries you mention have in common is that they are not really socialist, because the people never figured out how to keep the psychopathic elite from remaining in power or rising to power. The Reset Button Movement is not a socialist movement, it is simply a citizen takeover of government - and it does concentrate on keeping the psychopathic Elite OUT of power. If you are right and the majority of US citizens want anarchy, the US would become an anarchy, so what's your worry?

[risveglio]

I have no problem with anarcho-capitalism. It's actually my preference though I plan to put more research into anarcho-geoism (sp?).

Probably best to agree to disagree, but stop saying there is no plan.

http://agorism.info/


Our condition has been analyzed, our goal perceived, the mechanism has been spelled out and a set of pathways have been mapped out. Should we simply go counter-economic ourselves, educate ourselves in libertarianism and inform others by word and deed, we shall reach our libertarian society.

[Dennis Leahy]

Probably best to agree to disagree, but stop saying there is no plan.

http://agorism.info/That's not a plan, it is a philosophy. There is no real plan to get to it. Within 30 seconds I find gaping holes in logic, and what is described is simply yet another rehash of anarcho-capitalism (renamed as "market anarchism") that is EXACTLY the petri dish from which capitalist empires arise. I'm amazed that you would call that anarchism. And, as for removing the jackboot, "In a market anarchist society, law and security would be provided by market actors instead of political institutions." hahahaaahha "Market Actors"! A great euphemism for private mercenary enforcers of policy. I thought you wanted freedom.

That's as far away from The topic of the Reset Button as one could stray, and so I'll ask you to start a thread on "agorism" or "free-market anarcho-capitalism" if you want to discuss it with others. I'll even stay out of the thread if you want me to, because I'd put an uncomfortable magnifying glass on the topic.

[risveglio]

Probably best to agree to disagree, but stop saying there is no plan.

http://agorism.info/That's not a plan, it is a philosophy. There is no real plan to get to it. Within 30 seconds I find gaping holes in logic, and what is described is simply yet another rehash of anarcho-capitalism (renamed as "market anarchism") that is EXACTLY the petri dish from which capitalist empires arise. I'm amazed that you would call that anarchism. And, as for removing the jackboot, "In a market anarchist society, law and security would be provided by market actors instead of political institutions." hahahaaahha "Market Actors"! A great euphemism for private mercenary enforcers of policy. I thought you wanted freedom.

That's as far away from The topic of the Reset Button as one could stray, and so I'll ask you to start a thread on "agorism" or "free-market anarcho-capitalism" if you want to discuss it with others. I'll even stay out of the thread if you want me to, because I'd put an uncomfortable magnifying glass on the topic.

Again, I have no problems with anarcho-capitalism. I would much prefer to know my child was to be raised in an anarcho-capitalist society than a socialist one.

No need for a thread. You have made up your mind. There are detailed plans on that page. The manifesto and the line I quoted is the solution in itself but you want a political solution and that can't and won't work. Markets, free of Government is not going to lead to an oligarchy or private mercenaries but you are too blinded by Marx and his ridiculousness to understand that.

[Dennis Leahy]

Probably best to agree to disagree, but stop saying there is no plan.

http://agorism.info/That's not a plan, it is a philosophy. There is no real plan to get to it. Within 30 seconds I find gaping holes in logic, and what is described is simply yet another rehash of anarcho-capitalism (renamed as "market anarchism") that is EXACTLY the petri dish from which capitalist empires arise. I'm amazed that you would call that anarchism. And, as for removing the jackboot, "In a market anarchist society, law and security would be provided by market actors instead of political institutions." hahahaaahha "Market Actors"! A great euphemism for private mercenary enforcers of policy. I thought you wanted freedom.

That's as far away from The topic of the Reset Button as one could stray, and so I'll ask you to start a thread on "agorism" or "free-market anarcho-capitalism" if you want to discuss it with others. I'll even stay out of the thread if you want me to, because I'd put an uncomfortable magnifying glass on the topic.

No need for a thread. You have made up your mind. There are detailed plans on that page. The manifesto and the line I quoted is the solution in itself but you want a political solution and that can't and won't work. Markets, free of Government is not going to lead to an oligarchy or private mercenaries but you are too blinded by Marx and his ridiculousness to understand that.Markets, free of government [oversight, intervention, restriction] like Monsanto, Goldman Sachs, and the oil companies. Got it. Utopia here we come.

By the way, Marxism was never actually implemented anywhere on Earth - it was infiltrated and gutted by the elite capitalists and totalitarians before the Bolshevik revolution dust had settled. This has nothing to do with The Reset Button Movement. There is, in fact, deliberately NO attempt to change the form of governance within The Reset Button Movement - just to get control away from the psychopathic Elite. At that point would be a new beginning, not directed by the psychopathic Elite.

I didn't ask you to start a thread for me, but rather for yourself, as you seem to want to discuss the "market anarchism" rebranding of capitalism. Maybe you'll find others here that believe that some form of unfettered capitalism enforced by mercenaries is a great goal.

[risveglio]

Markets, free of government [oversight, intervention, restriction] like Monsanto, Goldman Sachs, and the oil companies. Got it. Utopia here we come.



All rely on the Govenment to get their edge. Try again, you can not be that stupid!




I didn't ask you to start a thread for me, but rather for yourself, as you seem to want to discuss the "market anarchism" rebranding of capitalism. Maybe you'll find others here that believe that some form of unfettered capitalism enforced by mercenaries is a great goal.

Can you please tell me where this unfettered Capitalism exists? You must be an Alinsky fan.

[Dennis Leahy]

Markets, free of government [oversight, intervention, restriction] like Monsanto, Goldman Sachs, and the oil companies. Got it. Utopia here we come.



All rely on the Govenment to get their edge. Try again, you can not be that stupid!
Wrong. You think the globalist mafia of central bankers relied on some national government to rise to power? Are you kidding me? Monsanto has virtually taken over the world's seed supply, because the US government did NOT intercede on behalf of humanity, not because the government helped them do it. You are stuck in Larken Rose's outrageously over-simplistic, "I trade you a bag of carrots.." You evidently have no idea who the bad guys are, hold the psychopathic capitalists as heroes, and people like me who actually want freedom from the psychopaths as the enemy. Enough.



I didn't ask you to start a thread for me, but rather for yourself, as you seem to want to discuss the "market anarchism" rebranding of capitalism. Maybe you'll find others here that believe that some form of unfettered capitalism enforced by mercenaries is a great goal.


Can you please tell me where this unfettered Capitalism exists?The naiveté in that statement boggles the mind. Again, it appears that you are clueless as to who owns and runs the world, and how they got there.

:focus:

[risveglio]

Markets, free of government [oversight, intervention, restriction] like Monsanto, Goldman Sachs, and the oil companies. Got it. Utopia here we come.



All rely on the Govenment to get their edge. Try again, you can not be that stupid!
Wrong. You think the globalist mafia of central bankers relied on some national government to rise to power? Are you kidding me? Monsanto has virtually taken over the world's seed supply, because the US government did NOT intercede on behalf of humanity, not because the government helped them do it. You are stuck in Larken Rose's outrageously over-simplistic, "I trade you a bag of carrots.." You evidently have no idea who the bad guys are, hold the psychopathic capitalists as heroes, and people like me who actually want freedom from the psychopaths as the enemy. Enough.



I didn't ask you to start a thread for me, but rather for yourself, as you seem to want to discuss the "market anarchism" rebranding of capitalism. Maybe you'll find others here that believe that some form of unfettered capitalism enforced by mercenaries is a great goal.


Can you please tell me where this unfettered Capitalism exists?The naiveté in that statement boggles the mind. Again, it appears that you are clueless as to who owns and runs the world, and how they got there.

:focus:

You are the naive one. Blinded by your own stupidity and belief in government. Unfettered Capitalism does not exist because if it was fettered, then it wouldn't be Capitalism. There is literally no country in which markets operate with ’absolute autonomy’. Please just give one example? You can't, because there isn't one. There is no such thing as a corporation without government. Corps use government to drown out their competition all the time. You are blinded by Marxists/Socialist bull****.

You are a pawn, trying to distract people from getting to a real solution with your pie in the sky, just another form of oligarchy reset button plan with the most unoriginal name ever.


If only I had a nicer master who didn't beat me so hard, the world would be so much better.

[risveglio]

I politely have asked for this thread to be deleted but only the Moderators seem to get what they ask for. So, I will ask one question again.

Please tell me where there is a country where markets operate with absolute autonomy? Just one?