How best to handle the Middle East refugee crisis

[Karma Ninja]

While I understand the fact that many people are concerned with the wave of immigrants and refugees from the middle east coming into their countries, I wonder what the motivation for these videos being made and spread really is drawn from. Is it fear? Is it logic? Is it love? Is it prejudice? Is it common sense?

Why do some people want to talk about immigration issues from a fear based perspective?

I would suppose it's a combination of a few of the above-mentioned reasons. Here in Canada we are seen as one of the most successful multi-cultural experiments in the world and rightly so. I have travelled a bit in my life and I have seen prejudice, hatred and xenophobia from both sides. I witness it almost daily in my life here in Canada too. However, we are possibly the best example of a nation who has made it functionally succeed. Tolerance has won over intolerance for the most part. I think this is the case in most nations as well. That is not to say that racism doesn't exist still in Canada. As I mention above, (I am mixed race) I see and hear racist comments almost every single day in Canada. Not usually directed towards me but there always seems to be a group that takes the brunt of the jokes and insults.

I always wonder why people are driven by an urge to speak out against large groups of people. Entire cultures can get swallowed up into the gaping maw of biased, ignorant and racist rhetoric. Usually it is the vocal minority who are heard from but I would think that varies from region to region. The reality in most cases does not end up being close to the crisis that the fear mongerers predict.

In Canada, Natives feel the sting of prejudice and racism virtually every single day since the colonists arrived. Black Slaves were first brought here in the 1700's and racism towards black people exists to this day. The Chinese were targeted in the late 1800's. During the second world war we got swept up into the hatred against the Germans and the Japanese. We rounded up Germans and Japanese and threw them into internment camps (prisons) simply for being born of a certain origin. In the late 40's and on into the 50's we were fearful of Italians and Germans. There were riots and murders and all sorts of terrible crimes committed. Then the Indians. Then the Pakistani's. Then the Lebanese. Then the Somalians. So many other groups feel it too even though I give them no specific mention. Today, I hear all the racist slurs against people from the middle east but the real target of most of the racism is against Muslims. No longer limited by nations that our immigration policies have encouraged to come here, we are now focused on an entire religion. 1.8 Billion people to hate and denigrate. Fear can easily rule the mind and Canada is a perfect example of that but we are getting better with each new wave of immigrants.

All these ignorant people seem not to have noticed how well the Germans, Italians, Japanese, Chinese, Lebanese, Indian, Black and so many other cultures have integrated into our culture. We still hear comments but in general there is acceptance. It could be better but not with the constant presence of prejudice, hatred and racism to hold it back.

I wonder what it would take to shift the mindset of the masses from fear of immigration to pride in their nations ability to lift people in need up. Even though a tiny percentage of immigrants in Europe commit crimes, the crimes make up a much larger proportional representation of the news stories regarding these immigrants.

I think the leaders in these receiving nations need to take a stand. Not against immigration but against fear mongering and ignorance. Replace the cowardly rhetoric and hateful messaging with a loving pride that exudes this message... "This is our nation, we have our problems but we are a proud and strong country. We welcome and accept you as our new neighbors and citizens and we are certain that the strengths of our society can heal the wounds that led you here. The hearts of our people can make you forget what you are fleeing. Follow our rules but most importantly...follow our lead. Together we can make this nation a better place. I guarantee it. Welcome."

Maybe this is just a pipe dream but I hold belief that it is possible. I hold out my hand and say this is the right path. Where are the leaders of our communities who are saying this? What are the leaders of your communities saying?

I rarely post and might not respond immediately to replies but please share your opinion. What are Avalon's thoughts on these negative news stories and videos? What tactic or messaging do you think would work best? Or is it more important to show the perils and dangers of immigration. I don't pretend to know but I assume I am right since my thoughts come from a place of love.

[Sérénité]

Hi Karma Ninja :)
I have posted many posts on issues regarding the immigration crisis so thought I would explain better my feelings and what I see going on around me.

I have to state clearly that I am not racist, not a single bone in my body. Our family is proud to be a mix of just about everything from everywhere.
I also have to state that I am not religious and don't believe in the secular nature of it, but neither do I judge those who do believe or follow a certain God and its way of life (unless its extreme to the detriment of others health and safety)

But I do believe the 'forced' mix of cultures due to the mass immigration is a very negative thing.

It may sound contradictory when I say that I think this should be a free world, with no constraints and no borders. Anyone should be allowed to travel and live anywhere they wish. We are all human and nobody should be made to feel less.

However we all have the right to feel safe and to live our lives the way we have become accustomed too without fear.

When I travel to another country I recognise and act in a way that is respectful to their traditions and cultures, not only to be respectful of other peoples feelings, but to keep myself safe and to mix with the people in a respectful and friendly manner, to integrate.

I believe that genuine immigrants, who are destitute and need help, we should, where ever possible help them.

I believe if they wish to start new lives abroad, work, learn the language, integrate into society there, respect the local cultures and rights of the people and laws then they should be welcomed, as fellow human beings, with open arms and with love...

Sadly this is not the case in the seemingly large majority of incoming migrants.

The largest influx is from countries that okay, may not offer them the best of futures or standards of life, but are far from war torn and destitute.
A large majority are social and economic migrants. They are using the very real and very sad issue of genuine migrants, jumping on the band wagon (or boat so to speak) and following the proverbial yellow brick road to the emerald cities.

Once they are there, they don't want to work, they don't want to learn the native language, they don't want to integrate into the society. They are getting free housing, free financial benefits and living the life of luxury. They are not being respectful to the culture in which they are now living amongst.

I am sure the vast majority of people around Europe at the moment know the ins and outs of the reasons behind the wars and destruction of certain areas. People are waking up en mass. I'm also sure the vast majority are extremely sympathetic to those genuine people fleeing war, starvation and murder and appreciate these people need to be helped.

What the vast majority are not happy with is that a huge amount of the immigrants are not in need of help. They are here only to rape and pillage...literally. To bleed our governments dry taking benefits and causing acute housing issues for both genuine immigrants and genuine local residents too.

I think these videos that are emerging are people desperately wanting others around the world to know what is going on. They are using their freedom of speech (or what's left of it) to open the eyes of others around the world who, for whatever reason, may be sheltered some what to the real negative side of what this mass immigration is doing to everyday hard working tax paying folk.

We are working long hours to provide for our families, to keep a roof over our heads, to live and survive. We are struggling to find affordable housing and trying to live of low wages that are taxed to death.

Then we see the immigrants. Free accommodation, free handouts, a lot don't want to work, don't speak our native tongue, don't want to mix with anyone else. They are sat in coffee shops drinking £4 coffees all day, walking round in labelled clothes, chatting on the latest phones, hanging in gangs and making people feel threatened. They are not respecting our culture or our rights or laws. They are biting the hands that are, in a nut shell...feeding them.

They are turning genuine, caring people against the genuine immigrants.

How can we take a stand against fear mongering and ignorance, when we are seeing this for ourselves on the streets of Britain and Europe.

Our economy is at breaking point. Our shortage of housing is reaching breaking point. These gangs of single immigrant males and their actions are making us fear our safety.

I personally don't watch most of the fear monger videos, I rarely watch the news. My views and opinions are based solely on what I witness and hear of first hand.

Our governments are well aware of what their actions and decisions are causing. Its becoming clearly obvious there is a much bigger plan at play here.
Divide and conquer? Yes
Fear and anger? Yes

The compassion, humanity and love we are trying to show towards those in genuine need is being shattered by those abusing our trust, coming into the EU in guise of Trojan Horses.

I agree with your statement whole heartedly...

"This is our nation, we have our problems but we are a proud and strong country. We welcome and accept you as our new neighbors and citizens and we are certain that the strengths of our society can heal the wounds that led you here. The hearts of our people can make you forget what you are fleeing. Follow our rules but most importantly...follow our lead. Together we can make this nation a better place. I guarantee it. Welcome."

But I feel the end should read: If you cannot contribute to making our nation a better place and cannot live in peace and respect the cultures and rights of those that have welcomed you, then you will be asked to leave immediately...

[Karma Ninja]

Hi Serenite

Thank you for being the only one to address my thoughts! I appreciate your taking the time out of your day to share them with me and the group.

I know where you are coming from and I understand why you must feel the way you do. Please allow me to take some exceptions with the way you feel towards the mass immigration.

First of all, you speak of the massive outflow of middle eastern people in a manner that confuses me when you use the term "forced mix of cultures". Forced by whom? You live in the UK (I assume by your flag) and you participate, by existing within the borders of the UK, in an elected democracy. Your elected leaders have agreed that you will take in a number of immigrants. This is the way your system was designed to work.

You speak of "genuine immigrants" but I am confused. Your elected government has set up a screening process for the applicants that is meant to limit the number of criminal and troubled immigrants. Your fellow citizens have entrusted these officials by electing them. All the screening processes have been organized and designed to screen the immigrants by your fellow citizens. This seems far from forced and more like a decision made by the publicly elected government and controlled by the people. Since the 1960's the percentage of foreign born English citizens has increased at a rapid pace. From 5% in 1961 to 13.4% in 2011. The recent influx is in line with the rapid increase that England has seen since the late 90's.

Why is this suddenly viewed as "forced"?

Moving on... I love the sentiment you expressed when you wrote:
"I believe that genuine immigrants, who are destitute and need help, we should, where ever possible help them.
I believe if they wish to start new lives abroad, work, learn the language, integrate into society there, respect the local cultures and rights of the people and laws then they should be welcomed, as fellow human beings, with open arms and with love..."

Beautiful and I agree completely.

But then I get confused again. You continue... "Sadly this is not the case in the seemingly large majority of incoming migrants."

Is this statistically proven? Where could I find those numbers? Even if it is true, haven't many of these recent immigrants just arrived from war ravaged countries? Or totally different cultures and in some (or many) cases just come from months and weeks of travelling amid war ravaged refugees? Imagine how chaotic that must have been. How much time is needed to integrate into English society? From my experience in Canada, it takes 2 generations before immigrant families begin to successfully blend into a different culture. It takes time to learn the language and adopt the traditions. What happened to your offer of help?

You write that "these people" come from places that don't offer a great future or standard of life. You then say that they are not from war torn or destitute places yet, most are from countries that suffer from incredible poverty, massive wealth disparity and major human rights abuses regardless of whether their country was directly involved in a war. You suggest that they are economic and social migrants but forget that this has always been the case with immigration into the Commonwealth.

You say they don't want to work but forget that without time they simply cannot function in the English workplace.

You say they don't want to learn the language but forget how hard it is to learn a new language and that they get isolated into pockets of their own people. When you travel do you hang around with a bunch of locals and sit around without understanding what anyone is saying or do you hang around with other tourists who speak your language?

You say they get free housing and financial assistance like it was their decision to offer them those resources. It also won't last forever and eventually they will form the bottom rungs of your country. You seem to think they should be left on the streets until they find a way to crawl off of them. Wouldn't that actually increase the chance of them becoming criminals?

You say they are sipping lattes, wearing designer clothes and living the life of luxury but I am sure that won't last nor is it really common.

You say a "huge amount" are not in need of help but are there to "rape and pillage...literally" and I wonder where you get the evidence for those accusations. Doesn't England already suffer from 1 in 4 women being sexually abused? Doesn't England already have thieves? Don't the rich and the politicians already rape and pillage your country on a massively larger scale? Why so outraged with the much smaller problem of immigrant crimes?

You say the insincere immigrants are turning good people against the "genuine" immigrants and yet it is your government that has offered all the benefits. Why blame the immigrants for taking advantage of what has been offered? Who could blame them after weeks and months of strife? It won't last forever and soon enough those immigrants will be suffering in a new system.

Your economy is at a breaking point due to a number of issues but one of them is the fact that your government is spending billions of pounds engaging in the very wars and subterfuge that drove those immigrants from their homes. Your economy is at a breaking point because you are part of a criminal banking system and the immigration issue is but a drop in the ocean.

Words are words and you chose your words. I think you have been reading the propaganda and are unaware of the scale of the problems. I don't deny that there are problem pockets and criminals being included in the waves of immigrants into your country and into Europe. I don't deny that terrorists could be among them. I am also aware that gangs already roam your bad neighborhoods raping and robbing the innocent. I follow the news carefully. I don't think you should be much more concerned than before.

Roughly 1 in 7 people in England are born abroad. This current wave won't change that number dramatically. Believe in your country and your people being able to shine through the mess and be the standard that you want these new citizens to adhere to. I encourage you strongly to consider the past, and current reality. Don't buy into the fear. If a terrorist event happens it will have more to do with your governments actions than it will with the terrorists.

Don't give into fear. Don't be divided and don't be conquered. Consider the possibility that the news coverage regarding immigrant crimes are a distraction. Don't forget about the Elite Pedophile networks or the banking scandals or the war crimes that are occurring. Perpetrated by English citizens not immigrants.

With love and respect and a boatload of wisdom.

[Enola]

I think it's a cultural, not a racist issue...

And I think you misunderstand the situation in Europe. It's not a tiny issue. Something like this has never happened before.

[Sérénité]

Hi Karma Ninja

I say 'forced' mix of cultures, whilst referring to the current issue of mass immigration because, the genuine immigrants fleeing war torn countries and destitution do not really want to be anywhere other than home.
All they wish for is to be in their beautiful home countries, living life as they did previously among their friends and loved ones, before the power crazy psychotic war warmongering idiots swept into their lands and caused carnage.

Therefore the mix of cultures is most definitely forced. They don't want to be here. They want to be where their culture and language is understood and go about life as they usually would.

I personally haven't elected anyone...I'm with the mindset that if voting made any difference they wouldn't let you do it. They are all just monkeys for the same organ grinder. Puppets for the invisible puppeteer hiding behind the set.
But I agree, people who did elect certain people to arrange the laws and set in motion the screening processes possibly done so with the best of intents...check the figures on how many are actually being processed properly against the quota coming in illegally and are currently running around the UK without ID and unknown to authorities...then you start to realise the real issues we're dealing with.

Research carried out by Migration Watch UK back in August last year found that there had been approx 1.1 million illegal and unidentified immigrants coming into the UK. That's 1.1 million untraceable people walking around the UK, not contributing to the economy, unable to receive benefits by legal means, unable to work legally...and they think that is possibly just the tip of the iceberg. It is no doubt considerably higher now that things have intensified and another half a year has passed.

I have friends and family and friends of friends who say they will no longer travel via car/ferry or car/eurotunnel to and from UK-France any more. There is incidents occurring hourly never mind daily. I know people first hand who have been scared for their lives while queueing in their vehicles to get back across to the UK. Literally surrounded by hundreds...of MEN!
This isn't issues I've seen on TV, MSM...this is first hand accounts from close family and friends. They all say the same, where are the wives, daughters, children???

I did indeed state that some of the economic migrants are coming here from places that don't offer a great future or standard of life. But equally there is millions of UK residents living in poverty that are not being helped.

I recently had the misfortune of having to seek financial help from the government. I spend a very long two hours of eye opening viewing in my local welfare office. A man from Afghanistan screaming at the clerk in broken English. He was irate as he had been overpaid by £1000 for his housing benefit. He said he works and earns £250 a week, him and his wife receive credits also to top up his wage, along with housing benefit and council tax benefit. He gave them the wrong earning details and therefore he had been paid too much. He said I'm not paying it back, you are doing this to me for not being a UK citizen, I will leave the UK before paying this back...
Meanwhile another man made it clear he was claiming and sending money back to his wife and children outside the UK...
I could go on all day with first hand stories like this but I haven't the time.

What I am trying to say is that there is a vast amount of immigrants entering the country under the guise of needy. They are not.

As for the sexual assaults, yes the UK has a shockingly huge amount of paedophile rings. Some clearly go as high as the government itself. But again I only speak for what I see and hear first hand.
Locally to where I am, the largest paedophile rings in the North West were set up and run by a gang men from Pakistan and Afghanistan. The ones here illegally have now been deported, the rest are in prison for 22+ years.

You would be more than welcome to come spend a week here and walk around my local town and stand near the local high school and shops at school closing time. Bring a notebook and pen to jot down how many men in their 20's and 30's of UK origin are stood in menacing gangs of 5 or ten, leering and jeering school girls and women walking alone.
Then jot down roughly how many gangs of immigrant men do this on a daily basis.
Ask yourself would feel happy for your daughter to walk home alone encountering this, but to speak out about it would brand you as insensitive and reminded that your own government and UK residency men are doing the same.
No, they're not, they're in work earning and providing for their families, not leaving them behind in another country.

I indeed chose my words, as we all do. But my words come not from any propaganda, but from first hand experiences and second hand accounts from trustworthy close family and friends.



Enola has hit it on the head, shortly and concisely...
"I think it's a cultural, not a racist issue...
And I think you misunderstand the situation in Europe. It's not a tiny issue. Something like this has never happened before."

I honestly do understand every point you have made and I accept it with a completely open mind and heart. But I do have to be direct here I'm afraid...if you are based in Canada and cannot see or experience this first hand, then is it not you who is only seeing this situation as delivered via MSM propaganda?

I think you miss my point when I stated, quite clearly, I honestly believe that the genuine immigrants fleeing hell should be allowed here with open arms and love.
But the gangs of male immigrants, young healthy and with money...arriving from countries they should be staying in to rebuild, help the needy and look after the women and children instead of leaving them behind...THEY are the ones that should not be granted access. They are the ones who are biting the hands that are feeding them, disrespecting our values and cultures and causing havoc amongst us.

The points I make and the feelings I state does not mean I go into my local town and sneer at anyone not speaking English. I treat everyone equally, regardless. Their plan of divide and conquer does not fly with me.
I can only speak from my heart though, sadly others are not the same.

In an ideal world we would welcome everyone with open arms and hearts. But some people sadly await for your arms to open so they can catch you off guard and strike...

[Antagenet]

I appreciate various cultures, their traditions, values, languages, arts, cuisine, and the last thing I want is for us to lose these well developed groups to a melting pot of global mixing where in the end there is only one culture, for example the youth of the world having more in common with each other than their culture of origin.

I want to uphold these cultural/tribal/social groups to continue as one of the ways of resistance against the corporate controller psychopaths who would prefer to have us all identical and therefore more easily controlled.

That being said, I am myself an immigrant from the USA to Mexico. I have married a local Mexican, learned the language, live far from the throngs of expats who mostly gather all together in a sort of barricade, because most of them are racist against Mexicans... and I know this because how I am treated for having married one (ostracised). The ugly racist american is more common here than you would imagine, even if they only express it with silent contemptuous grimaces and that ugly sense of american exceptionalism.

I wish there was open borders where people could live anyplace, but I think the solution is, they must know the language of the place they are moving to, or learn it immediately. This way large groups of foreigners can't move into a culture and unravel local customs, local peace, local ecology and take over with their arrogance or some kind of covert or overt conquering motives. Whether it is a wealthier or poorer immigrant population that moves into another social group, does't matter... what does matter is the immigrant/migrant/expats willingness to become an integrated part of the new culture, or at the very least a respectful appreciative observer.

What I understand about Islam is that they do have a conquering mentality, just as the christian missionaries (which always made me wince to hear about). And the Islamic attitudes about women, I find terrible. If there was some way to invite muslim women who wanted to escape Islam and live as equals, into other countries, that's a whole different thing that opening borders to young Muslim male freeloaders who have no interest in truly joining into another culture. I feel sorry for the Scandinavian women who are being raped by them and going to lose their safe country.

There should perhaps be INDIVIDUALISED immigration invitations for people who want to live in a country not of their origin... not just broad immigration policies who let everyone in or keep everyone out.

All immigrants who prove to be economic leeches unable to make a contribution or are found to resist joining the culture they have moved to could be sent back home. And this includes anyone racist against all indigenous peoples.

As for world economics, or climate change migration, as far as I can see, most of the world's economy is spiralling downwards and not many places have the extra funds to rescue large groups of immigrants, so why not tell the truth about it and allow the few places who might be able to survive without starvation do so without having to rescue the rest of the world. On the other hand, the 0.001% of the so called elite could be divested of their hordes of gold and create safe areas for Muslim women, for example, to move to. The idea that the few sociopaths with billions will be the ones who survive is the worst case scenario for humanity because they are inhumane.

[Hervé]

Trees and forests...

See this post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?88557-Refugees-Overrun-Germany-Europe-In-Decline&p=1042271&viewfull=1#post1042271) <--- in this thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?88557-Refugees-Overrun-Germany-Europe-In-Decline) <--- which links to this article (http://www.voltairenet.org/article189972.html) <---

... and then consider this which has been in the making for a very long while with the grooming of each and every parties for their respective roles:


"The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the "agentur" of the "Illuminati" between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion…We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view. This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time." 4
Excerpted from here (http://www.threeworldwars.com/albert-pike2.htm) <---

[Violet]

To keep a good overview, perhaps we could gather all the EU-refugee-related topics in one central topic? (mods?)

[Hervé]

How best to handle the Middle East refugee crisis Take a hint of how Putin and his staff are doing it...

Putin started his campaign on IS/DAESH/ISIS/ISIL when it occurred to him and his staff that Russia was set to be flooded with refugees and contingents of embedded terrorists. That in itself not only cut the outflow of migrants but allowed quite a lot of them to go back home.

It's a similar scenario that's followed by some galactic populations, according to Alex Collier (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?46424-Incarceration-as-a-form-of-vengeance&p=507187&viewfull=1#post507187), which foresaw in their crystal balls that tyranny was spreading across the galaxy from a source point... which got them interested in what was happening on Earth, NOW.

[Karma Ninja]

Hi Serenite

Thanks again for your clarification. I didn't see your use of the "forced immigration" term from the perspective you use in your clarification. I was confused by what followed and jumped to a conclusion. I guess it is only fair for me to say that I am as equally skeptical of the truth seeking community as I am of the MSM. I choose my information very carefully. Due to this, I am forced to discredit or ignore the overwhelming majority of the information that is made available from all sources. This is why I can't go solely by a handful of first hand accounts on this issue either. I prefer to gather up the opinions from multiple sources and multiple angles and then form my own opinion. I like to be thorough.

I am familiar with the hysteria and claims of increase in crimes during the waves of Indian immigration. I have read about the concerns during the waves after WWII. I am even more familiar with the recent concerns and claims made during the Romanian and Bulgarian wave that more recently came along. I feel like this current middle-eastern wave will be similar to those others. A small increase in crime that will not have a significant affect on the local crime rates. Followed by a tapering off and then an eventual return to the normal levels.

Outrageous distortions of the reality are common place among select media outlets and groups. A bump in crime rates attributed to the arriving immigrants is, of course, entirely predictable. Due to the stress, the mental condition upon arrival, the culture shock and various other easy to predict difficulties that these newly arriving people will face, it is inevitable that a higher percentage of them will lash out or turn to crime. But it will rapidly diminish and fall in line with the status quo over a short time.

That all being said... aren't crime rates in your country on a steady decline? Hasn't the reduction in crime rate actually coincided with the increase in immigration. (That is not to imply that they are connected but merely that they coincide with each other) All the increases seen in certain categories are associated with increased reporting and better police categorizations. Some increases are due to things like the introduction of cyber crimes into the statistics.

I guess it might require my living in your country to truly understand but I think I get a comparable dose of people's feelings regarding these issues from the Canadian public. We have a healthy sized group of people who are opposed to this immigration locally as well. I don't feel I am misinterpreting your views on this issue. But, in all likelihood, I am.

We will see in time what impact this will have. Until then, I wish you the best!

[Karma Ninja]

I think it's a cultural, not a racist issue...

And I think you misunderstand the situation in Europe. It's not a tiny issue. Something like this has never happened before.

I think it is a cultural issue too. As well as being a racist one. Racism is alive and well in the world. It's also a religious issue and mix in a touch of xenophobia and just pure hate and you will have covered off most of the reasons that this is such a hot button issue. Fear rules the day and those who are most fearful will catch many good people in their nets.

I never said this was a tiny issue. I merely proposed a path to peaceful resolution. At the core of the cultural issue lies a hateful and prejudiced backlash. I wonder if humanity is capable of something different. Something better.

[Enola]

To me this seems like a gradual preparation for a big disaster. That will lead to a war because we ask for it. At this point I can't even see what can get in the way to stop it.

[Debra]

Hi Serenite

Thanks again for your clarification. I didn't see your use of the "forced immigration" term from the perspective you use in your clarification. I was confused by what followed and jumped to a conclusion. I guess it is only fair for me to say that I am as equally skeptical of the truth seeking community as I am of the MSM. I choose my information very carefully. Due to this, I am forced to discredit or ignore the overwhelming majority of the information that is made available from all sources. This is why I can't go solely by a handful of first hand accounts on this issue either. I prefer to gather up the opinions from multiple sources and multiple angles and then form my own opinion. I like to be thorough.

I am familiar with the hysteria and claims of increase in crimes during the waves of Indian immigration. I have read about the concerns during the waves after WWII. I am even more familiar with the recent concerns and claims made during the Romanian and Bulgarian wave that more recently came along. I feel like this current middle-eastern wave will be similar to those others. A small increase in crime that will not have a significant affect on the local crime rates. Followed by a tapering off and then an eventual return to the normal levels.

Outrageous distortions of the reality are common place among select media outlets and groups. A bump in crime rates attributed to the arriving immigrants is, of course, entirely predictable. Due to the stress, the mental condition upon arrival, the culture shock and various other easy to predict difficulties that these newly arriving people will face, it is inevitable that a higher percentage of them will lash out or turn to crime. But it will rapidly diminish and fall in line with the status quo over a short time.

That all being said... aren't crime rates in your country on a steady decline? Hasn't the reduction in crime rate actually coincided with the increase in immigration. (That is not to imply that they are connected but merely that they coincide with each other) All the increases seen in certain categories are associated with increased reporting and better police categorizations. Some increases are due to things like the introduction of cyber crimes into the statistics.

I guess it might require my living in your country to truly understand but I think I get a comparable dose of people's feelings regarding these issues from the Canadian public. We have a healthy sized group of people who are opposed to this immigration locally as well. I don't feel I am misinterpreting your views on this issue. But, in all likelihood, I am.

We will see in time what impact this will have. Until then, I wish you the best!


I am going to be straight forward here. How much evidence is now coming forth on this forum from individuals who are on the ground in Europe? How much more does one have to gather from multiple sources to make up one's mind? I ask you.

I have documented on this forum my own first hand experience and Sérénité on this thread has most respectfully and generously spent a great deal of time to bring the same point home.

I am floored by this flippant devalutation. Yet another prime example of continued programming (which I shall bluntly call politically correct ignorance, extreme socialist rhetoric) and blatant social engineering that has progressively abused the goodwill of one set of people and is so ready to demonize us when we say: ENOUGH IS ENOUGH

So called refugees on the ground in Sweden have been threatening local populations for a while. And in a big way. It is a massive problem. Our governments are selling us out. The violence is real. The rapes are very real. The economic inequality is real. I know ethnic swedes who have paid years of big taxes who are now denied services related to their human rights just to stay alive. Sick people. Young families. Old people. Yet waves of crime are shoved under the rug.

Would you not say that there is a gross imblance here Karma Ninja?

More to the point, where do you get your information from? I don't care for the mainstream press either, especially when it covers up for years what has been going on. I am not unaware either that this whole sorry mess has been engineered by another layer of humans or non-humans (whatever) who have pulled strings ongovernment puppets to bring us this whole sorry mess - social engineers such as Barbara Spector, for one.

But what really gets my blood boiling, are rank and file people who continue to enable the ideology of this new world order by spouting statistics while conveniently ignoring multiple other studies and statistics of violence - and real time events every day as they unfold and even as I write. I tried the PC stance for a long time. It is now old paradigm in my world - it is so far removed from reality. It has done its job of division and creating fear in people to speak up - thank god that more and more people are now waking up and seeing that it is not sustainable. And speaking loudly - FINALLY.

Time for action. If it is not taken by governments, then rank and file populations are going to sort it out for themselves. Sad but keeping your head in the sand for so long instead of seeing the signs building for this long has unfortunately come to this.

Action - decisions must be made. Deport people who do harm to another. Cease these endless demands that a host culture change its traditions. Cease imposing religious beliefs. If you are not happy with the culture of the land you have moved to - leave. Simple really.

[Mike]

Hi Serenite

Thanks again for your clarification. I didn't see your use of the "forced immigration" term from the perspective you use in your clarification. I was confused by what followed and jumped to a conclusion. I guess it is only fair for me to say that I am as equally skeptical of the truth seeking community as I am of the MSM. I choose my information very carefully. Due to this, I am forced to discredit or ignore the overwhelming majority of the information that is made available from all sources. This is why I can't go solely by a handful of first hand accounts on this issue either. I prefer to gather up the opinions from multiple sources and multiple angles and then form my own opinion. I like to be thorough.

I am familiar with the hysteria and claims of increase in crimes during the waves of Indian immigration. I have read about the concerns during the waves after WWII. I am even more familiar with the recent concerns and claims made during the Romanian and Bulgarian wave that more recently came along. I feel like this current middle-eastern wave will be similar to those others. A small increase in crime that will not have a significant affect on the local crime rates. Followed by a tapering off and then an eventual return to the normal levels.

Outrageous distortions of the reality are common place among select media outlets and groups. A bump in crime rates attributed to the arriving immigrants is, of course, entirely predictable. Due to the stress, the mental condition upon arrival, the culture shock and various other easy to predict difficulties that these newly arriving people will face, it is inevitable that a higher percentage of them will lash out or turn to crime. But it will rapidly diminish and fall in line with the status quo over a short time.

That all being said... aren't crime rates in your country on a steady decline? Hasn't the reduction in crime rate actually coincided with the increase in immigration. (That is not to imply that they are connected but merely that they coincide with each other) All the increases seen in certain categories are associated with increased reporting and better police categorizations. Some increases are due to things like the introduction of cyber crimes into the statistics.

I guess it might require my living in your country to truly understand but I think I get a comparable dose of people's feelings regarding these issues from the Canadian public. We have a healthy sized group of people who are opposed to this immigration locally as well. I don't feel I am misinterpreting your views on this issue. But, in all likelihood, I am.

We will see in time what impact this will have. Until then, I wish you the best!


I am going to be straight forward here. How much evidence is now coming forth on this forum from individuals who are on the ground in Europe? How much more does one have to gather from multiple sources to make up one's mind? I ask you.

I have documented on this forum my own first hand experience and Sérénité on this thread has most respectfully and generously spent a great deal of time to bring the same point home.

I am floored by this flippant devalutation. Yet another prime example of continued programming (which I shall bluntly call politically correct ignorance, extreme socialist rhetoric and blatant social engineering) that has progressively abused the goodwill of one set of people and is so ready to demonize us when we say: ENOUGH IS ENOUGH

So called refugees on the ground in Sweden have been threatening local populations for a while. And in a big way. It is a massive problem. Our governments are selling us out. The violence is real. The rapes are very real. The economic inequality is real. I know ethnic swedes who have paid years of big taxes who are now denied services related to their human rights just to stay alive. Sick people. Young families. Old people. Yet waves of crime are shoved under the rug.

Would you not say that there is a gross imblance here Karma Ninja?

More to the point, where do you get your information from? I don't care for the mainstream press either, especially when it covers up for years what has been going on. I am not unaware either that this whole sorry mess has been engineered by another layer of humans or non-humans (whatever) who have pulled strings ongovernment puppets to bring us this whole sorry mess - social engineers such as Barbara Spector, for one.

But what really gets my blood boiling, are rank and file people who continue to enable the ideology of this new world order by spouting statistics while conveniently ignoring multiple other studies and statistics of violence - and real time events every day as they unfold and even as I write. I tried the PC stance for a long time. It is now old paradigm in my world - it is so far removed from reality. It has done its job of division and creating fear in people to speak up - thank god that more and more people are now waking up and seeing that it is not sustainable. And speaking loudly - FINALLY.

Time for action. If it is not taken by governments, then rank and file populations are going to sort it out for themselves. Sad but keeping your head in the sand for so long instead of seeing the signs building for this long has unfortunately come to this.

Action - decisions must be made. Deport people who do harm to another. Cease these endless demands that a host culture change its traditions. Cease imposing religious beliefs. If you are not happy with the culture of the land you have moved to - leave. Simple really.




:clap2::amen:

Absolutely awesome post.

I felt the passion here, the emotion. Ever notice how a certain segment of people are always trying to take emotion out of the equation (PC people) as if it clouds rational thought. Well I think a healthy amount of emotion sharpens thought...as demonstrated here. Righteous anger is very ok...and very necessary.

I'll admit that I don't know nearly enough about this topic to comment intelligently. the information I do have has only mixed my already very mixed feelings about it. Like anything else that isnt in our immediate environment, it almost has the effect of a movie. I am ashamed to say that ive found locating the proper concern and empathy for events occuring halfway around the world to be difficult. This apathy has to change if we as a human family are to have any chance of saving this world. People don't respond to newspaper articles and statistics, they respond to emotion. Emotion is like magic. It inspires people and gets things done. I'm already inspired to get my head and heart into this game by reading this post. Thanks Zeb.

[lunaflare]

Thank you for opening a very complex topic for discussion and taking such care to articulate your thoughts. I would like to address one point relating to white people (since you mention black people).

In Canada, Natives feel the sting of prejudice and racism virtually every single day since the colonists arrived. Black Slaves were first brought here in the 1700's and racism towards black people exists to this day.

"Colonists"- I am assuming you mean white folk. The same line of people, perhaps, who have contributed to society in positive ways: health, education, employment. Perhaps even improved people's quality of life. I really weary of these absolute statements ..and if you are mixed race, you are somehow immune from looking through the racial lens.

Black people, in Africa, were trading slaves long before "colonists" adopted this practice. Does racism exist? Yes, absolutely, depending where you are in the world. Racism towards white people is under reported but alive and well. As these posts state, it is an ugly situation in Europe if you are white (and female). Humans tend to be creatures of hierarchy and violence. They are also creatures of empathy, joy and peace. Paradox, yes? All people have the right to live in a country where they feel safe. Hence our need for police forces/security-watch to keep the peace (this is/was the traditional objective).
We all need to be vigilant, regardless of race or colour, to reform behaviour and policies that promote peace and goodwill rather than violence.

[Calz]

But what really gets my blood boiling, are rank and file people who continue to enable the ideology of this new world order by spouting statistics while conveniently ignoring multiple other studies and statistics of violence - and real time events every day as they unfold and even as I write. I tried the PC stance for a long time. It is now old paradigm in my world - it is so far removed from reality. It has done its job of division and creating fear in people to speak up - thank god that more and more people are now waking up and seeing that it is not sustainable. And speaking loudly - FINALLY.

Time for action. If it is not taken by governments, then rank and file populations are going to sort it out for themselves. Sad but keeping your head in the sand for so long instead of seeing the signs building for this long has unfortunately come to this.

Action - decisions must be made. Deport people who do harm to another. Cease these endless demands that a host culture change its traditions. Cease imposing religious beliefs. If you are not happy with the culture of the land you have moved to - leave. Simple really.


Hey Z,

When people are left with no better options they fight back to survive. You will be seeing much more of this soon unless governments face up to what they are letting happen at the behest of the globalists ... imho.


Stockholm pogrom: Crowd of masked men hunt and beat up non-Swedes

Published time: 30 Jan, 2016 12:14


Dozens of masked man went on an anti-immigrant rampage in Stockholm in an apparent retaliation for the stabbing death of a young Swedish woman at a refugee center earlier this week, local media reported.

The crowd of some 40 to 50 people went on a violent spree on Friday night at around 9 p.m. local time in and around the Swedish capital’s main railroad station, according to the Aftonbladet daily. They were beating up anyone who didn’t look like ethnic Swede. The attackers were wearing black balaclavas and armbands, the video obtained by the tabloid showed.


https://www.rt.com/news/330697-sweden-immigrant-pogrom-stockholm/

[Karma Ninja]

I am going to be straight forward here. How much evidence is now coming forth on this forum from individuals who are on the ground in Europe? How much more does one have to gather from multiple sources to make up one's mind? I ask you.

I have documented on this forum my own first hand experience and Sérénité on this thread has most respectfully and generously spent a great deal of time to bring the same point home.

I am floored by this flippant devalutation. Yet another prime example of continued programming (which I shall bluntly call politically correct ignorance, extreme socialist rhetoric) and blatant social engineering that has progressively abused the goodwill of one set of people and is so ready to demonize us when we say: ENOUGH IS ENOUGH

So called refugees on the ground in Sweden have been threatening local populations for a while. And in a big way. It is a massive problem. Our governments are selling us out. The violence is real. The rapes are very real. The economic inequality is real. I know ethnic swedes who have paid years of big taxes who are now denied services related to their human rights just to stay alive. Sick people. Young families. Old people. Yet waves of crime are shoved under the rug.

Would you not say that there is a gross imblance here Karma Ninja?

More to the point, where do you get your information from? I don't care for the mainstream press either, especially when it covers up for years what has been going on. I am not unaware either that this whole sorry mess has been engineered by another layer of humans or non-humans (whatever) who have pulled strings ongovernment puppets to bring us this whole sorry mess - social engineers such as Barbara Spector, for one.

But what really gets my blood boiling, are rank and file people who continue to enable the ideology of this new world order by spouting statistics while conveniently ignoring multiple other studies and statistics of violence - and real time events every day as they unfold and even as I write. I tried the PC stance for a long time. It is now old paradigm in my world - it is so far removed from reality. It has done its job of division and creating fear in people to speak up - thank god that more and more people are now waking up and seeing that it is not sustainable. And speaking loudly - FINALLY.

Time for action. If it is not taken by governments, then rank and file populations are going to sort it out for themselves. Sad but keeping your head in the sand for so long instead of seeing the signs building for this long has unfortunately come to this.

Action - decisions must be made. Deport people who do harm to another. Cease these endless demands that a host culture change its traditions. Cease imposing religious beliefs. If you are not happy with the culture of the land you have moved to - leave. Simple really.

I have read many articles and watched a number of video's from a bunch of various sources on the topic of illegal immigration into Europe. I gather my information from all sides. The sentiment, while stronger in Europe, is similar to the sentiment expressed by the many varied voices here in Canada. Some are in favour and some are against. Many are apathetic and don't really care either way. You can see first hand what is occurring in Sweden and I cannot. Either way, I lived abroad in Asia and the US for many years. I have Swedish friends and have kept in contact with a few of them. I have heard first hand accounts of the problems immigrants and non-native people encounter finding jobs and housing in Sweden. I have heard of the ghettos and the stories of highly educated immigrants who find it impossible to secure jobs in their fields. (The same thing occurs here in Canada.) I think it fair to say that while Swedes enjoy a great standard of living compared to the rest of the world they are not all exactly opening up their arms and welcoming new arrivals. We do this in Canada as well.

However, you are completely missing my point. If you see what I have written as a "flippant devaluation" of your concerns than so be it. I cannot make you understand my words. A less emotional and more open minded person would see that I am not devaluing your concerns or being flippant. I refer to these fearful and negative video's not because I do not see the point they are making but rather to juxtapose my proposal.

I stated in my opening post:

"I think the leaders in these receiving nations need to take a stand. Not against immigration but against fear mongering and ignorance. Replace the cowardly rhetoric and hateful messaging with a loving pride that exudes this message... "This is our nation, we have our problems but we are a proud and strong country. We welcome and accept you as our new neighbors and citizens and we are certain that the strengths of our society can heal the wounds that led you here. The hearts of our people can make you forget what you are fleeing. Follow our rules but most importantly...follow our lead. Together we can make this nation a better place. I guarantee it. Welcome."

Do you see where I write the words "Follow our rules"? That is simple enough to understand. It is absolutely ridiculous to imply that I am insisting that you keep criminals in your country. It is even more ridiculous to imply that I am following some globalist agenda or that I adhere to some "extreme socialist agenda". If your country has laws that say you can deport people for criminal behaviour then kick them out. I support that idea. If your local government refuses to deport criminals then elect another government. I can't see any good coming from mobs of local citizens ganging up to fight mobs of immigrants so leave it to the authorities. I state in my above quote that "We (Sweden in your case and Canada in mine) are a strong and proud country...." Read between the lines. I am saying that you are proud and that means you don't need to change your way of life to accommodate someone else's culture. As long as you don't break the laws of your constitution than be proud and defend your rights. I wrote it this way to be succinct but to make it clear that new immigrants need to learn the way life is lived in their new country. That means learn the language and follow the laws.

The problems in the world are complex and sometimes insane. The problems refugees and many immigrants face are real and far more serious than anything affecting people living in one of the best countries in the world. (Sweden) What they are running from is so much worse than anything you could truly imagine. Their is no hope where they come from and none for the foreseeable future.

You have a problem with rank and file people? Are you some sort of leader or official? Are you a general or a captain? I highly doubt it so I will assume you are rank and file as well. Why take such an elitist viewpoint? I see statistics but I guess they aren't as good as the statistics that you are privy to. You blame the issues of Sweden cutting off services to long time tax payers on the newly arrived immigrants? Do you think they had a say in the policies and decisions that enabled this to happen? Are the people of Sweden so weak that they allowed their government to be controlled by immigrants? The words you use in your post are eerily familiar.

Europe has in the past gone down a similar route to what you describe and espouse and it didn't end well. Why not try something different?

I am not worried about the wave of refugees coming into Canada because I have seen it all before. The strength of our people will carry us through. Regardless of the decisions our government makes, our people are salt of the earth good people. It is unlikely to change because a wave of 25,000 refugees arrive this year and another 25,00 next year won't change us either. 7 Million Canadians are already visible minority and Christianity is still the biggest religion. Hockey is still our favorite sport. The Maple Syrup still tastes the same. It's still a great country overall and we are not about to change anytime soon.

You have clearly chosen fear as your guide. You are defending your right to a way of life (slave system) that has benefited you while punishing the overwhelming majority of the world. I see this inequality and think the world can do better. I see the hatred and the anger and believe we can do better. I understand that we are all slaves to the elite and we are unlikely to see that change overnight. In Canada and Sweden we are at the top of the slave pyramid and we don't want to understand what it is like to live at the bottom. There is no wave of Muslim domination coming to take over the world unless the rest of the world is so weak that it allows it to happen. There are almost 2 Billion Muslims in the world. Let's assume they are not all bad.

Please excuse me now while I fart rainbows and glitter.

[Karma Ninja]

Thanks for the reply.

When I say "colonists" in reference to the founding of the nation called Canada, then I do mostly mean white people. Like my English born mother and my English/Irish grandparents and pretty much every relative I have on my mothers side. My fathers half is Japanese. Pretty sure that still makes me Canadian. :bigsmile: Canada interned and imprisoned my fathers family during WWII just for being Japanese. He was born in a prison camp. His mother was raped and beaten for years by the white people running the internment camp. So were his aunts, uncles and many older Japanese people he knew. War is hell and while the scars are still there, we have moved on as a family. I think being mixed race gives me a unique perspective on race and cultural issues. No built in bias. No lens, just my own eyes. I love Canada and it's people.

For the native population of Canada, it is hard to move on from Genocide and being forbidden from acknowledging your culture and way of life. I think it must be hard for them to see the positives but some do.

I agree with you that promoting hatred and violence is wrong no matter what culture or ethnic group it is directed towards. I am aware that racism exists all over. It's ugly no matter where you are.