The Oera Linda manuscript

[ketikoti]

I stumbled upon an intriguing story on red ice creations the other day which should not be exempt from the wonderfull repository of Project Avalon:
It is about the Oera Linda manuscript. A very old text that was inherited by a man (Cornelis over de Linden) in WestFriesland, The Netherlands in the 19th century and it was said to tell the family history. He tried hard to get it translated by linguists of his time, and it revealed a fascinating history of a bronze age world civilization since antediluvian times.

It was so out-of-place that it is regarded as a hoax, but it has remarkably similarity with the Ior Bock Saga and the family legends of Karl Maria Willigut (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Maria_Wiligut).

To get an idea of the content, peek at http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/olb/olb02.htm and a nice documentary made by Jan Ott who is investigating


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For more info on the Ior Bock Saga please look at these threads:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?62274-Bock-Sa-Ga
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?86728-Bock-Saga-update--regarding-the-North-Pole-Asers-and-the-Ringland-language-and-history-

If the Oera Linda book is a hoax, it is a very elaborate one.

For more background:
http://fryskednis.blogspot.de/
http://www.rodinbook.nl/olbstadermann.html

[Bill Ryan]

To get an idea of the content, peek at http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/olb/olb02.htm

Fascinating. Very briefly, this (the link above) was a detailed, scholarly paper about the manuscript which was read at a meeting of the Frisian Society, February 1871. This section kind of jumped out:





To fix the date we must start from the year 1256 of our era, when Hiddo overa Linda made the copy, in which he says that it was 3449 years after Atland was sunk. This disappearance of the old land (âldland, âtland) was known by the Greeks, for Plato mentions in his "Timæus," 24, the disappearance of Atlantis, the position of which was only known as somewhere far beyond the Pillars of Hercules. From this writing it appears that it was land stretching far out to the west of Jutland, of which Heligoland and the islands of North Friesland are the last barren remnants. This event, which occasioned a great dispersion of the Frisian race, became the commencement of a chronological reckoning corresponding with 2193 before Christ, and is known by geologists as the Cimbrian flood.

Here's where North Friesland (now known as Nordfriedland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordfriesland)) is:

http://projectavalon.net/Nordfriesland.gif

[Ernie Nemeth]

Then the phrase "far beyond the pillars of Hercules" is not a direction but a distance...

[Foxie Loxie]

Thanks for introducing me to something I had never heard of!

[Cardillac]

@ketikoti

yes, I already listened to the interview on Redice- fascinating info- I can't wait until Ott's book is published-

please be well all-

Larry :-)

[meat suit]

I havent got time to go thru this video at the moment, but from memory there are ancient maps and references in this video to an island called 'Friesland' which is now under water...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Wbn_1oHWTc

[ketikoti]

I havent got time to go thru this video at the moment, but from memory there are ancient maps and references in this video to an island called 'Friesland' which is now under water...

Frisland as referenced in the above link provided by "meat suit' is a phantom island Frisland that occurs on some old maps, as described on wikipedia here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisland

[Brigantia]

A serendipitous find - Catherine Austin Fitts interviewing Jan Ott, who has published an updated translation of the Oera Linda Boek (that I've had in mind to get next payday). They discuss the provenance and questions of authenticity of the book, what it conveys and how it might be relevant today.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Lo8bZIacgA

[Franny]

A fascinating story, thanks. I found the book at zlibrary, haven't read it yet, just downloaded it. The site has several versions at no cost, enjoy.

https://u1lib.org/s/Oera%20Linda

[Delight]

A fascinating story, thanks. I found the book at zlibrary, haven't read it yet, just downloaded it. The site has several versions at no cost, enjoy.

https://u1lib.org/s/Oera%20Linda

Thank you. Here is a reading of 1876 translation from Dutch translation to English translation

kdPjnVunTQw

[9ideon]

To get an idea of the content, peek at http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/olb/olb02.htm

Fascinating. Very briefly, this (the link above) was a detailed, scholarly paper about the manuscript which was read at a meeting of the Frisian Society, February 1871. This section kind of jumped out:





To fix the date we must start from the year 1256 of our era, when Hiddo overa Linda made the copy, in which he says that it was 3449 years after Atland was sunk. This disappearance of the old land (âldland, âtland) was known by the Greeks, for Plato mentions in his "Timæus," 24, the disappearance of Atlantis, the position of which was only known as somewhere far beyond the Pillars of Hercules. From this writing it appears that it was land stretching far out to the west of Jutland, of which Heligoland and the islands of North Friesland are the last barren remnants. This event, which occasioned a great dispersion of the Frisian race, became the commencement of a chronological reckoning corresponding with 2193 before Christ, and is known by geologists as the Cimbrian flood.

Here's where North Friesland (now known as Nordfriedland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordfriesland)) is:

http://projectavalon.net/Nordfriesland.gif

That's where the Frisians originated from yes (not many know this Bill, chapeau), but Friesland is more down South West. Friesland is now a province of the Netherlands and Ost-Friesland one of Germany.

The Fries came and colonized the area (my suspicion is that it might have been due to falling sea levels). The Fries settled the area all the way down to the city of Bruges (means harbor in Norse).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/Frisia_716-la.svg/800px-Frisia_716-la.svg.png

As a matter of fact, the Dutch are actually Danish, time forgot though (we still have a similar sense of humor which is not always understood by others, except the Danes, :-)

Side note, there have been scholars claiming that the entire story of the Odyssey actually took place in and around Scandinavia, not in the Med.

[Brigantia]

As a matter of fact, the Dutch are actually Danish, time forgot though (we still have a similar sense of humor which is not always understood by others, except the Danes, :-)

Side note, there have been scholars claiming that the entire story of the Odyssey actually took place in and around Scandinavia, not in the Med.

Well, I did get my Dutch ex-sister in law's jokes, maybe I have some Dutch ancestry... :)

The Odyssey is a tale that makes no sense if you apply it to the Aegean and Mediterranean seas; frequent storms and dense fogs for example. I've read Felice Vinci's book that places the Odyssey in the Baltic, everything fits such as the weather, the topography, the place names and the myths of Scandinavia.

I'm following a lot of the research on British history that is challenging the narrative of the Romans civilising Britain. Northern Europe has the mainstream narrative that they were all primitive savages but the deeper you question this, the picture looks entirely different. It's a deep and fascinating rabbit hole.

[9ideon]

As a matter of fact, the Dutch are actually Danish, time forgot though (we still have a similar sense of humor which is not always understood by others, except the Danes, :-)

Side note, there have been scholars claiming that the entire story of the Odyssey actually took place in and around Scandinavia, not in the Med.

Well, I did get my Dutch ex-sister in law's jokes, maybe I have some Dutch ancestry... :)

The Odyssey is a tale that makes no sense if you apply it to the Aegean and Mediterranean seas; frequent storms and dense fogs for example. I've read Felice Vinci's book that places the Odyssey in the Baltic, everything fits such as the weather, the topography, the place names and the myths of Scandinavia.

I'm following a lot of the research on British history that is challenging the narrative of the Romans civilising Britain. Northern Europe has the mainstream narrative that they were all primitive savages but the deeper you question this, the picture looks entirely different. It's a deep and fascinating rabbit hole.

I smell a Topic here, :-)

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

The Odyssey is a tale that makes no sense if you apply it to the Aegean and Mediterranean seas; frequent storms and dense fogs for example. I've read Felice Vinci's book that places the Odyssey in the Baltic, everything fits such as the weather, the topography, the place names and the myths of Scandinavia.

Don't buy that.

To return to Greece from Troy (in northwestern Turkey today) Odysseus need merely sail west across the Aegean. He'd have to round the Peloponnese to reach Ithaca, but the course presents no possibility of being swept accidentally into Scandinavian waters.

I love The Odyssey, and read it several times. It follows The Iliad, and was set down by, or in part written by, Homer. It's a collection of probably different oral stories and fables taken from different places and different times but combined into a single literary work. But it is Greek in origin.

Beware revisionists trying to re-write our history. It's often far less driven by historical data than agenda. I have no clue what agenda is at work to put the Odyssey in the Baltic region. Many of the places in the Odyssey tie in to real life locations in the Mediterranean, like Thrinacia (Sicily), Land of the Lotus-eaters (almost certainly somewhere on the north coast of Africa, likely Libya), Aeolia (Aeolian islands, near Sicily, today), and the treacherous waters of the Strait of Messina, they contain whirlpools sufficiently powerful to wreck ancient sea-craft; this was the source of the sea-monsters Scylla and Charybdis that Odysseus ran afoul of.

These 'scholars' are most adept at lining things up to achieve a reasonable (retro)fit, but only at the expense of certain 'inconvenient' facts (which they choose to ignore). Like a mainstream documentary not so long ago about Plato's Atlantis. They tried, endlessly, nauseatingly, to put Atlantis in Sardinia, or Santorini, or some stupid place. They only managed it by totally excluding Plato's written account! (this in a doc about Plato's Atlantis). For example pretty much his opening statement: "This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean". Their premise was flawed from the outset. Convenient facts were cherry-picked, and inconvenient facts not mentioned at all.

They're doing this with Atlantis all the damn time. Atlantis is finding itself placed all over the world, from the North Sea to South America, and that certainly is agenda-driven.

You could probably relocate Homer's Odyssey to the Indonesian islands too, and sort of make it fit the geography, and sort of make it adhere to local legends, if you pushed, pulled, squeezed and mutilated the various pieces hard enough. But it doesn't make it accurate.

Certainly there are many corollaries between the Norse pantheon and its sagas and ancient Greek myth. If there's any connection, it's much more likely that Norse folklore was inspired by, and emerged from, ancient Greek myth, not that it is ancient Greek myth misidentified.

[BoR]

Thanks for posting the interview. It gives an excellent insight into the book, which is one of my favorite subjects. Like i said before on another thread, I am of the conviction that all Germanic and Scandinavian people have common ancestry, as in: they were once one ‘tribe’/nation that lost knowledge of its history.

One thing I always thought odd was that it is a no no to speak too positively about your own language. Which is a strange thing that occurs in Dutch and I also believe in German society. And I have the impression this is also true for the Danish, Swedish and the Scandinavian countries. I believe this ‘belittling’ of the language and putting other languages on a pedestal is a sign to me of the suppression of our history and original culture, and our identity.

Let me be break this awful habit by doing the opposite here: I think all Germanic languages are very beautiful, they are all beautiful in their unique way. And my personal favorites are Danish and, yes my own language. Alright, I said it now!

It is just too bad that one well known awful person from the 20th century tried to revive the pride of Germanic heritage with mischievous intentions to achieve totalitarianism. But I also see that as part of the further oppression as well, but that is for another discussion. But it is also clear to me this person would not have promoted Oera Linda. As Jan Ott says in this interview: this book teaches people to hold on to freedom and
reject and fight slavery.

[Brigantia]

I love The Odyssey, and read it several times. It follows The Iliad, and was set down by, or in part written by, Homer. It's a collection of probably different oral stories and fables taken from different places and different times but combined into a single literary work. But it is Greek in origin.

One thing I would say about that is that there has been much discussion in mainstream academia through the years about these anomalies in the Odyssey, also about the fact that Odysseus is not a name of Greek etymology.

Hardly anyone believes that Heinrich Schliemann's Turkish site of Troy is the genuine site, there are too many anomalies and many now believe that he was a fortune-seeking charlatan.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

One thing I would say about that is that there has been much discussion in mainstream academia through the years about these anomalies in the Odyssey, also about the fact that Odysseus is not a name of Greek etymology.

Maybe some say that, but we're not talking about a lost civilization here, like Atlantis or Mu. This is Greece, about which a great deal is known, because its history was recorded. Scholars have been studying these histories for centuries, and armchair scholars like me have been following along.

Looking at my father's copy of the Odyssey, a book he actually bound himself as a Classics student at University in the mid-fifties, the tale of how Odysseus was named is recounted by the character Autolycus:


"Yes, let me be his godfather. In the course of my lifetime I have made enemies of many a man and woman up and down the wide world. So let this child be called Odysseus, 'the victim of enmity'. "

Accordingly, we have an account of what the name 'Odysseus' means. Homer uses the verb ὀδυσσάμενος in the original Greek, meaning "to be wroth against", which is written in English, odyssamenos - Odysseus. So there's your Greek etymology.

His naming is in keeping with and characteristic of the time; sons of kings and other heroes were most often named for a trait they (the king) possessed or a feat they performed. Odysseus's father was Laertes, King of the Cephallenians, whose home was Cephallenia - today Cephalonia, or Kefalonia, in the Ionian islands (Western Greece). Nowhere near Scandinavia. There are also other variants of the name Odysseus that derive from other works, ancient Greek inscriptions and so forth. Suffice it say, if he existed at all, and I'm not arguing he definitely did (most likely he's a combination of characters, and the events of the Odyssey are a combination of legends), he was Greek, came out of Greek folklore, and belonged solely to Greece.

Another key character in the Iliad – and one of Odysseus's closest friends and allies – was of course Agamemnon, King of the Mycenaeans. Who's calling Mycenae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenae)a Scandinavian nation? No-one. It's in southern Greece, for real (I've been there). It was, virtually, during its time, an empire that dominated the Mediterranean. Many other countries and cultures in the Mediterranean record them and name them in their histories. The brother of Agamemnon was Menelaus, husband of Helen herself. He was King of Sparta, whose location also isn't questioned (it's also in southern Greece), and a good deal about its history and culture is also known.


Hardly anyone believes that Heinrich Schliemann's Turkish site of Troy is the genuine site, there are too many anomalies and many now believe that he was a fortune-seeking charlatan.

That sounds like the voice of an agenda-driven author at work. It just isn't true in reality. The ruin of Hisarlik in northwestern Turkey is generally and very widely accepted as the location of Homer's Troy. I mean, seriously, widely accepted. Personally, I accept it strongly, because the evidence that it is Troy is very persuasive. A very great, very rich, fortified bronze age city existed on that site. It was very great in Odysseus's time and far before. The most interesting layer of the excavation is Troy VII (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Bronze_Age_Troy), which dates to the 13th century BC, bang on for Troy. It was destroyed in a great burning at that time, also bang on for Troy.

Artists impression of the citadel of ancient Ilium at Hisarlik, late bronze age (this based on actual physical evidence in the archaeology conducted there)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Troy_%28Ilion%29%2C_Turkey_%287446656654%29.jpg/640px-Troy_%28Ilion%29%2C_Turkey_%287446656654%29.jpg

Schliemann was less an archaeologist and scholar than a treasure-seeker. Some of his methods were crude and really quite destructive. But he was a man of his time. In the mid 19th century there really was no 'proper way' to excavate, archaeology being in its infancy. Another blot against him is that he didn't really 'discover' the site of Troy anyway, he was only excavating there at the advice of British archaeologist Frank Calvert. Today though, I'd say, Schliemann is considered a bit of a visionary and a pioneer for the discoveries he made, including Troy (he also led excavations at Mycenae). He basically inspired and kick-started a whole era of scholastic study into ancient Greece, and for that I thank him.

Also bear in mind that Troy being located in northwestern Turkey did not originate in Schliemann's time. It's worthwhile considering the historical context. The site of Ilium, or Troy, was being visited by pilgrims even in the late Hellenistic period. Alexander the Great was supposedly one such visitor (a thousand years after the Trojan war). Apparently, in his writings, the Spanish explorer Pedro Tafur (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_Tafur) visited Troy some time in the 15th century. He located it on the sea, opposite the isle of Tenedos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenedos), in northwestern Turkey. (Maybe what was there at that time and what he saw was some other ruin; there being multiple bronze age settlements/ruins in the general area, but its proximity to Hisarlik is an interesting coincidence.)

Forgive my lengthy and impassioned rebuttal here, but this triggers me (did I really say that?!). But actually it does. Ancient cultures, civilizations, and history is something very close to my heart, and I've always had a deep love for Greece. These hacks trying to re-write history in their own image and for their own gain kind of piss me right off.

You really should read the Iliad and the Odyssey Brigantia, and make a list of all the Greek references within, all the Mediterranean locations mentioned and visited, and the over-arching people around which and to which all these events take place: the Achaeans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaeans_(Homer)). In other words, the Greeks.

(PS, if mods deem this conversation is off-topic and should be moved to its own thread, by all means...)

[Brigantia]

My apologies for the late reply Star Mariner; I was working yesterday evening and today was a day of 2 laundry loads plus other chores.

I'm sorry that you feel triggered by what I wrote, that was never my intention as I always aim to debate rather than provoke. Perhaps we could agree to disagree? :cheers:

I have read the Iliad and Odyssey, at school and university as I did aim for a degree in Classics, but never graduated. I've had 3 attempts at graduating but something calamitous always arose, forcing me to give it up - even though I only need to do a final year to get my 360 points, I'm not tempting fate anymore! I also did some archaeology modules and had some sotto voce conversations with a very frank lecturer who - as well as other subjects - acknowledged the Schliemann site anomalies; too small, and the burn layer doesn't look extensive.

Without going into any depth as I've covered it before, I had a deep dive into Fomenko's work last summer with a friend. We double-checked his facts as much as we could and corroborated much of it, and the fact remains that there are no copies of the Classics that pre-date the Renaissance, with the exception of the fragments of Plato and Asclepius that were found at Nag Hammadi. The demand by aristocrats for ancient manuscripts at that time was so great, with huge sums of money paid for them, that we cannot discount that some may have been forged.

I have to say that what we uncovered rocked me to the core, I've visited magnificent ancient sites extensively in Italy, Greece and Cyprus in the past. One thing that I did was dig out a book I bought at Pompeii of the ruins, with comparative illustrations of what they would have looked like before the eruption. I was shocked to see what looked like the old quarter of any Italian town today. So... the style of architecture hadn't changed in 1500 years...

Whilst I remain open-minded about it, we discuss conspiracies and cover-ups of more recent times elsewhere on this forum - could similar distortions of history have been going on for a very long time? That's not a statement, just throwing out a question, and I don't feel that any subjects should be off-limits for scrutiny.

I did quite a lengthy post here (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?116439-Cymroglyphics-deciphering-Egyptian-Hieroglyphs-using-Welsh&p=1455367&viewfull=1#post1455367)on some of my research on trying to make sense of ancient British history if anyone is interested. The linguistic study of the age of the split between Frisian and Old English is very interesting for the Oera Linda narrative; I should have added there that the dates quoted are 'no earlier than' and 'no later than'.

[Kryztian]

Without going into any depth as I've covered it before, I had a deep dive into Fomenko's work last summer with a friend. We double-checked his facts as much as we could and corroborated much of it,


That's great! You might want to tell us about that on this thread:
What is Clif High smoking? (Anatoly Fomenko's theory of the "New Chronology") (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?109523-What-is-Clif-High-smoking--Anatoly-Fomenko-s-theory-of-the-New-Chronology--)

I listened to Jan Ott's interview with Catherine Fitts and when he mentioned this intersection between ancient Greece and Magna Frisia I instantly thought of Formenko and his very different paradigm of human history and wondered if that was behind Ott's theories. Either way, this shouldn't mar our appreciation of these ancient texts and authors. Whether or not you think the play Hamlet was written by a man of humble beginnings from Stratford on Avon or by the Earl of Oxford, this does not diminish the power of Shakespeare's greatness. I think the same goes for the The Illiad and The Odyssey. Glad we all share an appreciation for the power of these works, something that comes through regardless of what ever mysteries they are enshrouded in.

[Brigantia]

Without going into any depth as I've covered it before, I had a deep dive into Fomenko's work last summer with a friend. We double-checked his facts as much as we could and corroborated much of it,


That's great! You might want to tell us about that on this thread:
What is Clif High smoking? (Anatoly Fomenko's theory of the "New Chronology") (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?109523-What-is-Clif-High-smoking--Anatoly-Fomenko-s-theory-of-the-New-Chronology--)

I listened to Jan Ott's interview with Catherine Fitts and when he mentioned this intersection between ancient Greece and Magna Frisia I instantly thought of Formenko and his very different paradigm of human history and wondered if that was behind Ott's theories. Either way, this shouldn't mar our appreciation of these ancient texts and authors. Whether or not you think the play Hamlet was written by a man of humble beginnings from Stratford on Avon or by the Earl of Oxford, this does not diminish the power of Shakespeare's greatness. I think the same goes for the The Illiad and The Odyssey. Glad we all share an appreciation for the power of these works, something that comes through regardless of what ever mysteries they are enshrouded in.

I have made a few posts there, though I can't quote my friend's research without her permission. She's raring to go for some road trips next year, who knows what we might unearth!

Totally with you on the ancient texts, and Shakespeare; whoever it was who wrote them, the name on the cover or otherwise, there is much beautiful writing and wisdom in them that resonates down the centuries.

[Kryztian]

I have made a few posts there, though I can't quote my friend's research without her permission.


Well, gosh dang it, get her permission! :sun: :ROFL: If she isn't afraid to be around us crazies, perhaps she should become a member of Avalon so she can post her own thoughts!



She's raring to go for some road trips next year, who knows what we might unearth!


Probably, at long last, the real location of Atlantis. :sun:

[Brigantia]

Probably, at long last, the real location of Atlantis. :sun:

No pressure then, Kryztian! :eek:

[Brigantia]

I've been watching these over the past few days from the Asha Logos channel, he discusses the Oera Linda Boek against the broader topic of antiquity and subsequent history. There is a particularly interesting segment in the third one, about a community in New Zealand whose ancestral origin tales have been confirmed by DNA testing.

It's just over 3 hours of viewing, but well worth it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYT_WugMLoY&list=LL&index=13


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XujB_NhKTy4&list=LL&index=11


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvt5jJnMruc&list=LL&index=4

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

I'm sorry that you feel triggered by what I wrote, that was never my intention as I always aim to debate rather than provoke. Perhaps we could agree to disagree? :cheers:

Oh no need to worry! I was kind of joking when I said "triggered", I'm really not that type at all. A better phrase would be "piqued", as in my interest in this theme was piqued and it prompted me to respond.


I have read the Iliad and Odyssey, at school and university as I did aim for a degree in Classics, but never graduated. I've had 3 attempts at graduating but something calamitous always arose, forcing me to give it up - even though I only need to do a final year to get my 360 points, I'm not tempting fate anymore! I also did some archaeology modules and had some sotto voce conversations with a very frank lecturer who - as well as other subjects - acknowledged the Schliemann site anomalies; too small, and the burn layer doesn't look extensive.

Fascinating. And I'm very glad you've read the Odyssey and Iliad. Yes the principle edifices of the citadel at Hisarlik are quite small, but what standard are we employing here? Mycenae is similarly small, as is the Palace of Knossos. But surrounding the citadel at Troy was an urban sprawl; they suggest at least 70-acres in size. How far exactly this settlement extended three thousand years ago is impossible to gauge accurately sans the remains of any stone structures. Because likely these buildings were simple, made of wattle and thatch, so could have covered an even wider area.

There is no doubting, whatever one believes, that "Hisarlik" was a substantial, important, and rich principality at the right time and in the right place for Homer's Iliad. The Trojan war I strongly suspect did not occur in the way Homer describes, i.e. the famous "quarrel" over Helen, the face that launched a thousand ships. More likely, the poem recollects not one but probably a series of wars between Greece and neighbouring rival powers on the Aegean. Given the existence of significant ruins on the northwestern peninsula of Turkey dating to the right time, Hisarlik is simply a very good fit.



Without going into any depth as I've covered it before, I had a deep dive into Fomenko's work last summer with a friend. We double-checked his facts as much as we could and corroborated much of it, and the fact remains that there are no copies of the Classics that pre-date the Renaissance, with the exception of the fragments of Plato and Asclepius that were found at Nag Hammadi.

That doesn't quite gel with me. For example the Iliad is sourced in its complete form from the Venetus A (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetus_A), dating to the 10th century. It's assumed it was copied down from earlier material, pre-dating even Homer, right back to its probably oral origin. The Iliad can also be traced and tracked in religious and cultural artwork, architecture, and inscriptions throughout the 1st millennium BC. We also have Herodotus of course, whose work Histories survives on scraps of papyrus. He references many ancient writings, including the Iliad and the Odyssey, and much of the Epic Cycle. Certainly the Epic of Gilgamesh is ancient due to engraved tablets nearly 4,000 years old. We also have the Suda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suda), a Byzantine collection long before the Renaissance, that references authors from Homer to Apollonius, listing their works.



The demand by aristocrats for ancient manuscripts at that time was so great, with huge sums of money paid for them, that we cannot discount that some may have been forged.

I agree, it's quite probable there were many forgeries and counterfeits, but they do not discount or discredit - in my view - the authenticity (or historicity) of the Classics.

[Brigantia]

Thanks SM for the info on Venetus A, I hadn't come across that before so I stand corrected!

The Iliad and Odyssey clearly have a very old provenance as the style of narrative certainly suggests oral transmission. I wonder if they were chanted or sung? I've seen footage from India in which they chant their sacred texts as that aids the learning of it, and keeps the text intact and unaltered through the generations.

[shaberon]

The Iliad and Odyssey clearly have a very old provenance as the style of narrative certainly suggests oral transmission. I wonder if they were chanted or sung? I've seen footage from India in which they chant their sacred texts as that aids the learning of it, and keeps the text intact and unaltered through the generations.


Yes!

Think: Orpheus.

I would say that is what is behind a lot of this sort of thing; same with Druidry.

[ExomatrixTV]

Our Subverted History, Part 5.1 | The Oera Linda Book:

Fw3RTHlD5ZU


Our Subverted History, Part 5.2 | The Oera Linda Book:

TRcuZ5m4_6w


I red about this story/discovery long long time ago in our Frontier Magazine (https://issuu.com/frontierworld/docs/frontier_8.2) Netherlands ... am so happy to see it is picked up internationally :bowing::thumbsup:



oeralindaboek.nl (http://oeralindaboek.nl) (Dutch).

cheers,
John

[SoulValor]

As a matter of fact, the Dutch are actually Danish, time forgot though (we still have a similar sense of humor which is not always understood by others, except the Danes, :-)

I never heard of the danish/dutch correlation. Actually it is more obvious that the Dutch and the Germans are pretty much the same (I'm German btw). "Deutsch" is the german word for "German" which I'm pretty sure the english word "dutch" arrives from - and it is obvious from their national anthem where there is a line "ben ik, van Duitsen bloed" (a (not brainwashed) German will hear this as "von deutschem Blut" (of "German blood").
--> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Het_Wilhelmus

Ironically the Germans do not use the word "dutch" for people or things from Holland, their word for it is "holländisch" (from "Holland") or "niederländisch" (from "Netherlands").

Thinking about that, how ironic that the English use the same words for that country but only for the country - when they speak of the habitants it all of a sudden becomes "dutch". I always wondered about that peculiar word but it's pretty obvious to me now. :)

I think in German the use of "dutch" would be frowned upon because there's been a divide that has been implanted into the "Dutch" and "Germans", almost bordering on hate (often visible when it comes to football). The word "dutch" would counter that as it shows direct connectiveness.

Of course that (mental) divide has been foisted on pretty much all of the Germanic tribes/people -over the centuries. For instance, you also have this separation between Germans and British (Again, quite visible in football). I mean, helloooo? "Anglo-Saxons" - how much more obvious can it get with the word Saxons - in case people don't know, the Saxons were a Germanic tribe and there are still three states in Germany today that have the word Saxony in them (Sachsen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxony), Niedersachsen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Saxony) and Sachsen-Anhalt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxony-Anhalt))).

Of course if we go by the Germanic extrapolation it IS safe to say that the Danish are also related to the Dutch - but also to the Germans, the British, the Swedes, the Norwegians, the Rus etc. (by and large)

And if we go even further, one might say that they all have Atlantean origin. That Atland location from the beginning of the thread has been written about by a German author for several decades (starting in the 50s I believe). -->

https://www.amazon.de/s?k=j%C3%BCrgen+spanuth&i=stripbooks&__mk_de_DE=%C3%85M%C3%85%C5%BD%C3%95%C3%91&crid=QSR2F56GC2AX&sprefix=j%C3%BCrgen+spanuth%2Cstripbooks%2C95&ref=nb_sb_noss_1

A free pdf copy of one of his most "famous" books (one may say notorious):
https://ia801306.us.archive.org/24/items/juergen-spanuth-atlantis/juergen-spanuth-atlantis.pdf

I don't know if any of his works have ever been translated into English. Personally, I find his work very intriguing/convincing, especially with the Bernstein (amber stone)/ Electrum connection. Bernstein can primarily be found in the northern seas of Germany, Baltica and Holland where it gets washed ashore. Plato (?) or somebody mentions Electrum as a stone highly valued and dealed with by the Atlanteans. Since Atlantis sunk it makes sense that this stuff emerges from the seas where it was located. But this is one point of many.

(Yes, there's also a gold-silver alloy namend Electrum but back in those days that term might have been used for amberstone. A lot of the traits described fit the bill for amberstone (as Spanuth outlines) - and interestingly enough, amberstone is actually electric! One of the tests for authenticity (there are fakes of amberstone on the market) is to rub the stone against your clothes (cotton,wool,velvet). If it is real this will make it electrostatically chargend so that pieces of paper, hairs and lint will cling onto it. (Like a magnet) (As a quick link: https://www.romadesignerjewelry.com/blogs/education/put-on-your-detective-hat-how-to-spot-real-amber-from-fake)

Nonetheless, I'm not actually sold on the idea that around Helgoland was THE Atlantis (as Spanuth proposes and also apparently the Oera Linda manusscript). But some colony or outpost of Atlantis. (The Dogger Bank may tie into this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogger_Bank) It is much more likely to me that the actual continent of Atlantis was in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean as there are maps of this (can be found on the net) and they really strike a cord with me. And even as kid I was very convinced that the Atlantic Ocean derived its name from Atlantis.

Btw, I've been told a couple of times that I had a previous lives in Atlantis but of course I can't tell if it is true - it would make a lot of sense to me though as I feel very connected to and very electrified on the subject of Atlantis. I'm pretty sure this applies to others here in the forum, too.

The actual Atlantis must have been much bigger than just some tiny land/expansion north of Frisia. But maybe "Atland"/Helgoland was the location of the famous city of Atlantis? (with the rings) Then maybe Frisia/Denmark/Germany/Holland were the Greater Atlantis and everything beyond were the outposts/colonies....
but that exactly doesn't feel right to me either. All I know is that Germanic/Atlantis is very much connected and obviously it is something that the National Socialists used and promoted. I don't believe this was made up by them (only maybe exaggerated), there really is something there (that makes German(ic) people respond to this).

If one wants to find closer relatives or actual descendants of the Atlanteans that are still alive today (even though only in small numbers after having been butchered/conquered by the Spaniards) one should look at the white skinned natives of the Canary Islands (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canary_Islands)- the Guanches. -->
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanches
It is very possible that the Canary Islands (and also the Azores) are mountain/volcanic remnants of Atlantis (the one located in the Atlantic Ocean)....

(As an aside, I vacated on Tenerife a few times when I was a teenager and I can tell that it is a very magical place....I'm kinda longing to go back there someday :(

[Brigantia]

There is a very old map, 15th or 16th century, that shows Atland off the coast of Ireland and Scotland in the Atlantic. The island and its small outlying islands correspond with the present topography of the ocean bed.

Busy making dinner at the mo, I'll add an image once I've eaten. :)

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

A free pdf copy of one of his most "famous" books (one may say notorious):
https://ia801306.us.archive.org/24/items/juergen-spanuth-atlantis/juergen-spanuth-atlantis.pdf

I don't know if any of his works have ever been translated into English. Personally, I find his work very intriguing/convincing, especially with the Bernstein (amber stone)/ Electrum connection.

I haven't read Spanuth, but I've read about him, as I have most Atlantologists. He was certainly a worthy contributor to understanding bronze age culture, for sure, but I think he was off-track with the Atlantean jigsaw puzzle he was trying to make fit together. I rather suspect he was following in the footsteps of Herman Wirth. One of the errors Spanuth makes (and another example of an author trying fiddle with the facts to make them fit his theory) was changing Plato's date for the destruction of the Atlantean epoch from 9,000 years ago (from the time of Plato) to 9,000 months ago, placing the deluge at around 1,300 BC.

There really are so very many theories for Atlantis, and I fear nearly all of them have some sort of underlying agenda. The Germanic/Hyperborean theory that Spanuth (and Wirth) espoused, had much in common with the Volkisch movement. However that began, it became severely distorted by the Nazi propaganda machine when they used this ideology to advance its notion of Aryan supremacy.

It's worth noting that Wirth was correct in believing that the North Pole wandered, and that the continents shifted their location (tectonics). But his idea that the nordic race originated in the Polar religion is probably not accurate - at least not in regards to Atlantis. I strongly believe the original Atlanteans were brown/red, and if you were to search for any genealogical link to them today you'd find them in South America and in Native American peoples. The final Atlantis (~10,000 BC) was populated however by more of a mix of ethnicities, much like anywhere in the west today. For various and quite interesting reasons I believe the Basque region in northern Spain is a good candidate for a post-Atlantean colony, Ireland also (the Tuatha Dé Danann (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuatha_D%C3%A9_Danann)), and of course Egypt (where Atlantean religion started over).



Plato (?) or somebody mentions Electrum as a stone highly valued and dealed with by the Atlanteans.

(Yes, there's also a gold-silver alloy namend Electrum but back in those days that term might have been used for amberstone. A lot of the traits described fit the bill for amberstone (as Spanuth outlines)

I know of the amber argument, and maybe there's something in it, I've no idea. But the substance Plato discusses is orichalcum, a legendary metal alloy - and I rather suspect the theory that it was simply a variant of bronze or brass is more correct.



It is much more likely to me that the actual continent of Atlantis was in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean as there are maps of this (can be found on the net) and they really strike a cord with me. And even as kid I was very convinced that the Atlantic Ocean derived its name from Atlantis.

Exactly what I think too. It always was in the Atlantic. The likes of Wirth and Spanuth would have us believe it was in the extreme north, and after the 'break-up' all that remained was Greenland (that was Wirth's position). I think it much more likely that after the break-up at the end of the final epoch, all that remained of Atlantis was the Azores.



Btw, I've been told a couple of times that I had a previous lives in Atlantis but of course I can't tell if it is true - it would make a lot of sense to me though as I feel very connected to and very electrified on the subject of Atlantis. I'm pretty sure this applies to others here in the forum, too.

100%. You are an Atlantean, and so am I. Nice to meet you. I think a lot of Avalon members lived in Atlantean times.

[Brigantia]

Trying to get my facts right with my mind on cooking is never a good idea... the island shown on old maps is Frisland, not Atland, but Frisland does suggest a linguistic connection with Frisians. The name Atland suggests migration; Atland - Alt-Land - Old Land, just as the Americas were called the New World, with Europe being the Old World.

There are two legends that speak of a magical island to the west of the British Isles and Ireland; the land of Lyonesse, lying to the west of Britain, features in the Arthurian legends and might have been borrowed from an earlier legend. In Ireland, there is the tale of Tir-Na-nOg, a mystical and enchanted island to the west where the people have eternal life.

I've added below a few 16th and 17th century maps showing Frisland in the Atlantic, apparently it no longer appears on maps after the 1660s. Although it is shown all over the place - off Ireland and Scotland, or closer to Iceland, or near Greenland - it is similar to the Piri Reis map that shows the land mass under the Antarctic ice sheet, so it could possibly have been drawn from earlier maps that no longer exist. This video also discusses the possible location of Atlantis, firstly the Richat structure and at 8 minutes it discusses Frisland, and ocean floor topography that corresponds with the old maps of Frisland.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqLefYX86xI&list=LL&index=157

I'd also like to thank you SoulValor for your interesting post, I'll check out those links!

Of course that (mental) divide has been foisted on pretty much all of the Germanic tribes/people -over the centuries. For instance, you also have this separation between Germans and British (Again, quite visible in football). I mean, helloooo? "Anglo-Saxons" - how much more obvious can it get with the word Saxons - in case people don't know, the Saxons were a Germanic tribe and there are still three states in Germany today that have the word Saxony in them (Sachsen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxony), Niedersachsen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Saxony) and Sachsen-Anhalt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxony-Anhalt))).

I don't know if you're aware of this, but our history was changed to Anglo-Saxon origins during the reign of the very unpopular Hanoverians who came over from Germany. Before then all the history books had a clear and consistent narrative that the British were descended from Brutus, who came from Troy (where Troy really was is another story!) and London was called Troia Nova (New Troy), which was romanised to Trinovantum.

[Brigantia]

It is much more likely to me that the actual continent of Atlantis was in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean as there are maps of this (can be found on the net) and they really strike a cord with me. And even as kid I was very convinced that the Atlantic Ocean derived its name from Atlantis.

Exactly what I think too. It always was in the Atlantic. The likes of Wirth and Spanuth would have us believe it was in the extreme north, and after the 'break-up' all that remained was Greenland (that was Wirth's position). I think it much more likely that after the break-up at the end of the final epoch, all that remained of Atlantis was the Azores.

I've always been fascinated by this topography of the Atlantic seabed, to the south-west of Madeira that made the news about 10 years or so ago (coordinates - 31.249965, -24.353817). They said it was caused by shipping! There's also a long straight line to Madeira - a road? I calculated the measurements of this rectangular structure - 50 miles by 30 miles.

It's now a much darker blue on Google Earth, and harder to make out.

[BoR]

Trying to get my facts right with my mind on cooking is never a good idea... the island shown on old maps is Frisland, not Atland, but Frisland does suggest a linguistic connection with Frisians. The name Atland suggests migration; Atland - Alt-Land - Old Land, just as the Americas were called the New World, with Europe being the Old World.


Most likely (my conclusion thus far), the migration was because of the flooding of (parts of) Atland. And I also think Frisland (the ‘mythical’ island) was part of Atland, where, given its name, the ancestors of the authors of the Oera Linda book most likely originally came from. Atland, I believe, was a larger country or maybe even a (con)federation. I still suspect that the Richat structure in Mauretania, as the capital city of Atlantis (Atland), as described by Plato, was part of that larger country.

[BoR]

As a matter of fact, the Dutch are actually Danish, time forgot though (we still have a similar sense of humor which is not always understood by others, except the Danes, :-) Ironically the Germans do not use the word "dutch" for people or things from Holland, their word for it is "holländisch" (from "Holland") or "niederländisch" (from "Netherlands").

Thinking about that, how ironic that the English use the same words for that country but only for the country - when they speak of the habitants it all of a sudden becomes "dutch". I always wondered about that peculiar word but it's pretty obvious to me now. :)

I think in German the use of "dutch" would be frowned upon because there's been a divide that has been implanted into the "Dutch" and "Germans", almost bordering on hate (often visible when it comes to football). The word "dutch" would counter that as it shows direct connectiveness.
:(

Indeed, we call our language Nederlands, but the earlier name of the language was Diets. But now Dutch people call the language of their neighbours Duits. The connection between German and Dutch is obvious indeed.

I never experienced real hate towards Germans in my environment, only the generation who lived through WWII experienced that, which is understandable. And the football ‘hate’ is more like a tongue in cheek kind of animosity. Germany is like the big brother (in size) that the little brother likes to beat. And when he can’t - because it used to be that the German team would change the whole outcome of the game in their favor at the very last minute 😁 - he gets frustrated with him. It is a subject we always laughed about on birthday parties etc. Where you can hear in between the lines the brotherly love we actually have for our neighbors.

But especially in these times, I notice a lot of solidarity between both people, especially the aware people who are against covid tyranny. I just read a German post on Telegram which called on other Germans to join the Dutch in their next protest march in Amsterdam.

[norman]

InnerVerse - The Forbidden History of the Oera Linda Book with Dylan Saccoccio & Slick Dissident (https://podbay.fm/p/innerverse/e/1692903613)
2 hour 21 minutes - Posted Aug 24, 2023

SHOW NOTES
Discover the unauthorized history of the world after the last great flood, described in the pages of the Oera Linda manuscript. Although accused of being a forgery by mainstream academia, this text contains a philosophy and worldview that, if at all true, may help us comprehend how our society has degenerated since the lofty Bronze Age, through the dark times up to now. Dylan Saccoccio joins us to discuss this fascinating text that you likely have never encountered before now.



InnerVerse - Jan Ott & Dylan Saccoccio - The Oera Linda Book: Linguistic Artifacts of Post-Flood Hidden History (https://podbay.fm/p/innerverse/e/1693180800)
2 hour 9 minutes - Posted Aug 28, 2023

SHOW NOTES
Oera Linda translator and scholar Jan Ott joins InnerVerse for a conversation about this fascinating and suppressed ancient text. Dylan Saccoccio provides questions and observations for Jan Ott as we investigate clues about the history of our world through examining language and artifacts.



https://www.innerversepodcast.com

https://www.youtube.com/@InnerVersePodcast/videos

Video versions

The Forbidden History of the Oera Linda Book with Dylan Saccoccio & Slick Dissident

h-G64tGPNi8


Jan Ott & Dylan Saccoccio - The Oera Linda Book: Linguistic Artifacts of Post-Flood Hidden History

mFhY-mW8ikQ

[gini]

5 jan 2024
With English subtitles.
The Oera Linda project and how Jan Ott got inspired to initiate it.
A converstation with Niels Lunsing & Merlyn van Dobben, recorded 14 February 2023.---al-TQ2sUlmo
00:00 Oera Linda
47:00 Jan Ott

https://oeralinda.org/
https://forum.oeralinda.org/
https://wiki.oeralinda.org/