Do ETs exist?

[indigopete]

Although one has to keep an open mind about such mind blowing topics, I remain quite sceptical about the whole alien-UFO phenomenon.

I don't really believe that we are being visited (other than in vehicles known as "the human body").

The other day I listened to a fascinating discussion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fya5u-TxBoc) with Joseph Farrell which I thoroughly commend to everyone interested in this subject. It was called "The Spider in Roswell" and in it he makes a compelling case that the Roswell incident was a thoroughly earthbound phenomenon where the "Alien" aspect was added years later to help obscure the fact that much of Nazi research had in fact continued in secret after the end of WWII.

Other reasons I'm sceptical is that something so universal as a visitation by alien life would be just that - UNIVERSAL. It isn't something you could keep the secret of a few members of human society as if we're playing some cops and robbers game.

Despite the fact that there's clearly a viable case to be made that the universe is teeming with life - much of it "intelligent", it's also the case that physical incarnations of that life are likely to be "stations" in existence. In other words, the universe is like a rainbow - you incarnate on one planet, you can see others but only in the past. You can never reach them in the present without dis-incarnating first and re-entering a non-dimensional existence.

In other words, the universe is relative. What we see exists only as long as we stay put. The same applies to anyone else in a physical existence at any other random space-time juncture. Hundreds of people are being born every minute - those are the arrivals, not tin-can saucers.

I therefore believe that whatever NASA's preparing people for is simply more of the same they've always "prepared people for". i.e. The next chapter in their never ending fairy tale that keeps the masses swallowing their pre-prepared agendas.

Thats the end of my health warning for anyone proposing to drink any of the NASA-UFO coolaid ;)

[Justplain]

Idigopete, of course there could be a big psy-op about much of the ufo phenomenon, however to say that interstellar visitation does not take place here or might not be taking place, would be ignoring the facts. Eye witness UFO encounters world wide number in the tens of thousands or more since WW2. Video footage and still pics of ufo's near similar volumes. Abduction testimony numbers in the thousands for the same period. Animal mutilations numbers in the the thousands of incidents yearly. Historical accounts, ancient and otherwise, also describe encounters with offworlders. Not to mention the suppressed info on recent crash recoveries that exist, such as described in credible eyewitness accounts, such as The Day After Roswell by Col. Corso. To ignore this evidence of offworlder visitations here is to deny the facts, imo.

[indigopete]

Idigopete, of course there could be a big psy-op about much of the ufo phenomenon, however to say that interstellar visitation does not take place here or might not be taking place, would be ignoring the facts. Eye witness UFO encounters world wide...To ignore this evidence of offworlder visitations here is to deny the facts, imo.

How is any of that evidence of "alien visitations" ?

All it is is evidence of Hollywood's projection of "alien visitations". None of us have any clue as to what the characteristics of alien life are so we have no reference points. The "reference points" have all been supplied to us by the media.

I do not think that testimony of abductions, cattle mutilations, sightings of high performance craft are evidence of anything other than strange phenomena that can only be accounted for by secret technology or other earthbound sources.

They could of course be "alien" as you say. All I'm saying is that it's highly unlikely - as in less likely than seeing a genuine flying pig.

The thing is, it's very difficult to travel to other planets, but it's very easy to convince people of stuff. In this case, the reason it's easy is because most cannot (or do not) make an intuitive appraisal of the practicalities involved. They think that interstellar travel is like airline travel - just something thats waiting to be invented.

It isn't.

There is no such thing as interstellar travel as far as incarnate beings goes because mass - almost by definition - is a destination in its own right, not a vehicle. It would be like trying to move the whole of London to New York just let one Londoner visit New York. Completely pointless.

If we were really being "visited" you wouldn't be seeing the odd glimpse of a shimmering light. You'd have half of every main street teaming with aliens. Hey, guess what - we do !! They're called us and we arrive in bodies, not saucers LoL :highfive:

Seriously though, this phenomenon is not something arriving from other planets IMO and people should start waking up to that likelihood.

[Peace of Mind]

whatever NASA's preparing people for is simply more of the same they've always "prepared people for". i.e. The next chapter in their never ending fairy tale that keeps the masses swallowing their pre-prepared agendas.

Thats the end of my health warning for anyone proposing to drink any of the NASA-UFO coolaid ;)

That concerns me more than anything else on the subject. We get most (if not all) of our knowledge about the cosmos from NASA yet we’re always finding reasons not to trust them.
Seeing the dire state of the economies (the world in general) there is no other perfect plan (and timing) to keep the masses trained and dependent. Keep them under control by having them believing in something more powerful them.

It’s hard to imagine that a universe can be so vast in scale and life…yet not one person can produce anything at all that will support the “ideas” of life elsewhere other than here. In fact, most people believe simply because they see that other people believe. But, what if the space we see in the sky isn’t nothing like we were told it was? After all, none of us have the means to actually verify these very intriguing claims. So what is it that makes some us believe in the unproven?

I’m all for the truth, I just don’t want to be like those that went from the cradle to their graves believing false ideologies like the world being flat, or is it….haha
Seems like the the trap is nearly set…but who/what will be the bait and who/what will be the prize? Watch and See

Peace

[Justplain]

Idigopete, the following statement i would question:

"There is no such thing as interstellar travel as far as incarnate beings goes because mass - almost by definition - is a destination in its own right, not a vehicle. It would be like trying to move the whole of London to New York just let one Londoner visit New York. Completely pointless...
If we were really being "visited" you wouldn't be seeing the odd glimpse of a shimmering light. You'd have half of every main street teaming with aliens."

How do you know that interstellar travel is impossible? You believe Einstein's theory of relativity is the absolute truth, just as nineteenth century scientists believed the newtonian physics would answer all questions, just like before kepler the world was demonstrably flat?

Our scientific understanding of nature has been developing for a few hundred years. Do you think there is nothing left to discover that might permit interstellar travel? Even current science has identified nutrinos travelling faster than the speed of light. Quantum entanglement has allowed instantaneous communications over distances (ie. faster than the speed of light).

Ben Rich, the one time boss at Lockheed skunkworks, was quoted in the 90's as saying they already had developed interstellar tech, and that some of Einstein's equations were wrong (Einstein never succeeded in developing a unified field theory although apparently there are several proposed theories that are now available for verification).

Given this info, i brlieve interstellar travel is not only possible, but is quite probable. The fact current Earth tech is relatively new makes it a reasonable assumption that older off world hi tech civilizations would have already developed it. By NASA's own estimates, our galaxy alone probably harbours billions of earthlike planets, making the probabilities that other older civilizations not existing relatively close by so miniscule to being nearly impossible. Just because aliens arent parading around in broad daylight broadcasting their existence does not prove they are not here. Some would say they are broadcasting their presence via crop circles, visual craft sightings, abductions, etc.

Based on these 'facts' i would conclude that your assertions of interstellar travel is impossible (and therefore off worlder ufo visitations are impossible) as being erroneous.

Of course, you are entitled to believe whatever you want, but i wont be joining you there.

[indigopete]

Idigopete, the following statement i would question: "There is no such thing as interstellar travel..."

How do you know that interstellar travel is impossible?... You believe Einstein's theory of relativity is the absolute truth, just as nineteenth century scientists believed the newtonian physics would answer all questions

No - I'm as sceptical of institutionalised thinking as many contributors to these threads.

However, at the same time, Einstein's theory is as much a philosophical discovery as a practical one and it's pretty conclusive - at least as far as anything with a finite mass is concerned. (It does not apply to the massless realm and it could be argued that our whole experiential existence goes on in this realm so it doesn't mean that the doors are closed to speculative musings about our infinite universal existence).

Think of it this way.

Lets say you live in London and went to Australia on the Monday for a week's holiday on a plane. Then on Tuesday you decided to take a walk to a park, but picked a park back in London. i.e. you just endured a 24 hour flight to Australia and the next day you decided to take a walk 26,000 miles, on foot, in order to spend an hour in a nice park.

In the analogy, the aeroplane is the spiritual realm from which we incarnate into bodies and the "walk to the park" represents travel in the material realm.

See the logic fail ?

When you realise how short our physical lifetimes are compared to astronomical distances and times, everything falls into place, including why there's no 'aliens' here. The reason is that we simply hold a flawed definition of that word. The aliens are here - same as Londoners are in Australia - it's just they all get Australian accents and Australian passports the moment they land and they don't bother attempting 26,000 mile morning walks between flights.

Another thing in favour of this way of looking at things is that it doesn't even require dismissal of Einstein's theory since relativity does not limit the speed of massless objects (our plane in the analogy). In fact a related field (quantum mechanics) positively demonstrates that travel can be instant in a concept known as quantum engagement or action at a distance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_at_a_distance).

On the other hand, the theory that aliens are here in physical bodies that have actually travelled form other star systems in ships just does not add up at all. It requires a wholesale dismissal of all we know about physics, spirituality, interchangeability of energy and matter, human social behaviour, historical precedents for manipulation of the masses. We know that such hoaxes have been going on throughout the centuries so why should this not be one also ?

There's another thing to consider that I haven't mentioned but that is just as important. That is that we need to consider the fact that the universe as we see it does not exist. We only ever see it as it was years ago - even when looking at the nearest stars with the naked eye. The implications of this (combined with Einstein's theory) are profound because they are that it is unknowable from any subjective perspective. Thats another nail in the coffin for the 'aliens' theory that I can't really see how one would get round without successive incarnations at least.

I realise it's a kind of screwy concept but thats because we're so used to local phenomena - extremely short distances where things happen within a single lifetime. That keeps us busy so we don't have to bother with profound concepts that only apply at astronomical scales.

All of these things lead me to believe that the UFO phenomenon is conclusively earthbound. As I say - it's far easier to convince people of nonsense than it is to present a convincing argument that it's genuine. It's all psychology and always has been IMO. To believe anything else should take a whole lot more than some mutilated cattle and reports of being beamed up to a spaceship for an "operation", however genuine those reports may be.

[indigopete]

9/11 opened my eyes to the way the world works.

(Well actually, The Mayan Factor (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mayan-Factor-Path-Beyond-Technology/dp/0939680386) did but 9/11 sealed it).

[Justplain]

Indigopete, sorry, you lost me with the walk in the park analogy. You make a good point, however, on how masslessness might effect velocity. Richard D. Hall has an excellent analysis on the claims of the TR-3B secret space program craft and how it loses 90% of its mass. If a spaceship were to lose all its mass then it likely could reach phenomenal speeds, thus making my point that interstellar travel is probably feasible with hi tech.

Another interesting case of hard evidence of E.T. presence on earth is shown in Lloyd Pye's starchild reaearch which shows dna analysis that this creature was of no known earthly gnome.

I would not argue against interdimensional beings visiting earth either, ghosts being an example, evil spirits being another.

All the evidence I've sited is open to debate, however, i have given an exhaustive list of evidence for an E.T. presence here. I have to say that you have not provided much, if any evidence, that supports your position, from my vantage, anyway. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

[indigopete]

Another interesting case of hard evidence of E.T. presence on earth is shown in Lloyd Pye's starchild reaearch which shows dna analysis that this creature was of no known earthly gnome.

That type of thing is only evidence of alien presence for those who've already convinced themselves of it. For any impartial observer it's just a biological anomaly amongst thousands of such anomalies throughout history.

The thing about propaganda is that it's best done by its subjects themselves in a way that leaves them thinking they've created the agenda. With regard to the E.T. case, the "authorities" now have people exactly where they want them in that regard - in the palm of their hand begging for "disclosure".

What do you notice about this situation ?

What I notice is that fertile ground has been laid for a mass brainwashing exercise that hands some kind of blank cheque to the powers that be. The MO is the same as with events like 9/11.

I used to have a lot of time for the 'alien agenda'. Like others on here I devoured all known videos, testimony and historical anecdotes on the subject. But over time 2 strands of observations have brought me to the conclusion that it's all a hoax:

[1] - I spent a great deal of time thinking about the philosophy and science of it all and realised that - though we are probably not alone in some kind of spiritual dimension - we are most likely alone in the material one. (Much like a raindrop can only be 'everywhere at once' while it's in the ether known as water vapour. Once it precipitates, its locality forms an integral part of its existential definition for as long as it remains liquid)

[2] - I've realised that the politics of the 20th century largely revolved around covert mass manipulation of one sort or another and that the "ET" phenomenon is probably just another instance of such. A manufactured, reality distortion tool amongst others as wide ranging as the 'terrorist threat', the concept of 'debt as money', man made global warming and the idea of the state as a proxy for the 'people'

As for evidence of ET's, the truth is there is none. There are anecdotal testimonies about flashing lights, mutilations and teleportations which are not evidence of anything other than strange phenomena that remain unexplained. People would do well to acknowledge that fact because evidence of interstellar travel looks a whole lot different to any of those things.

Like I say - although it doesn't sound like it now, I've always remained open minded about this subject and will continue to be so. However it's my open mindedness that has led me to these conclusions. I've been on both sides of the fence in this debate (mostly on the pro-ET presence side actually) at one time or another. But at some point one needs to sum up the aggregate weight of everything one knows about everything. Not just anecdotal interviews on Youtube but also about life itself - as if you'd never come across an internet terminal.

I'm sorry but the weight of evidence is not that 'ET is here'. The weight of evidence is that this is one big propaganda exercise the same as all others, who's objective is to provide convenient cover for whatever covert agendas of the day are in progress.

[Justplain]

Indigopete, the argument you use saying that the starchild's dna being a "normal" aberration, when dna mapping never shows such anomalies, is just a cop out for not being able to explain legitimate evidence that contradicts your position.

Just because you think you have had a "realization" does not mean that your conclusion is correct. There is outstanding evidence of E.T. presence here that is not the result of a psy-op, you are just too closed minded to see.

You are an example of someone who creates his own reality, one that is not shared with the evidence.

[indigopete]

Indigopete, the argument you use saying that the starchild's dna being a "normal" aberration, when dna mapping never shows such anomalies, is just a cop out for not being able to explain legitimate evidence that contradicts your position.

Just because you think you have had a "realization" does not mean that your conclusion is correct. There is outstanding evidence of E.T. presence here that is not the result of a psy-op, you are just too closed minded to see.

I doubt it.

"outstanding evidence" is a very subjective term and the starchild skull is a single object of biological origin that was found on this planet and is therefore likely to have originated on this planet, regardless of how "unplaceable" it is by DNA research.

The Earth is 4.5 Billion years old. The modern species of man is thought to be around 50 to 200 thousand years old. So the entire age of the human race therefore amounts to about 4.5 thousanths of 1 percent of the age of the planet itself. I think there's more than a little room in there for a few lost and anomalous species of ancestor before we start concluding a solitary skull came from halfway across the universe.

As I said earlier, evidence of interstellar travel does not come in the form of random flashing lights or a single mis-shapen skull with un-identifiable DNA and the fact that people are banding this around as "evidence" shows just how much of the propaganda they've swallowed. Put it this way. If there really were aliens on the planet who'd arrived by any other means than natural childbirth, you wouldn't need NASA to tell you about it and we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Finally - just a last thought on your remark that I am "closed minded".

I was brought up on a diet of Klingons, Romulans and federated star systems, just like most others of my generation. It doesn't require any great leap of imagination for me to identify with the idea of life elsewhere in the universe and that beings may be wandering around in spaceships hoping between galaxies.

It turns out that given the last 50 years of such 'programming' by Hollywood, it requires an open mind to imagine that that scenario may not be the reality rather than that it is. The reason is that such casual tossing around of profound concepts of time and space and even philosophy has corrupted our ability to make value judgements about how reasonable one hypothesis is over another when doing appraisals of the unexplained.

I actually had to condition a lot of the last 20 years of sci-fi and internet "testimony" out of myself in order to put things into some perspective to that end - otherwise you just end up being a repeater for everyone else's fantasy.

It's not to say there isn't life "out there". It's just that I don't think it goes buzzing between star systems in bubble shaped versions of the 20th century motor car.

[kemo]

which rests on an increasingly shaky notion that FTL travel is impossible. If that’s the only string to your bow you’ll need to find a new one. It was once the received wisdom that trains could not travel at more than 30 mph or whatever as all the air would be sucked out of the carriage. In fact I recall that it was also considered that science was ‘dead’ because we knew everything there was to know. There’s colossal ignorance for you. We’ve been a technological race in our current history that is for maybe a couple of hundred years and of course our technology has increased exponentially. We know that life can exist in the most inhospitable – to us – places but even planets in the Goldilocks zone exist in their billions it is estimated. Of course life exists out there and the chances are that some civilisations are much more advanced. Anything is possible. It is practically in the public domain how FTL travel works – e.g. Mark McLandish work compiled from eye witness accounts – I’m surprised Richard Branson hasn’t decided to build one. From what we already know it is at least possible that FTL travel will be possible in future – if not already from what Ben Rich had to say about Black Ops projects.

Of course no-one can be expected to prove a negative i.e. that ET is not visiting us. But there is plenty of evidence – I would say overwhelming – that they are. It’s no good denying that something exists or that something happens because in theory it can’t. That’s not science. In that case either the theory is wrong or there is more to it. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I can’t ‘prove’ the ET presence because the evidence is not in the public domain for political or darker reasons but there are plenty of people e.g. Cliff Stone who have had first-hand access. Of course it is always possible that people like Cliff Stone, Charles Hall, Bob Lazar are liars or that Stan Freidman, Richard Dolan, Micheal Shratt etc are wrong and you are right. But I don’t think so. Course you may think what you wish, but the ‘weight of evidence’ is all on one side: there is no evidence on the other side – just theory and not just that but an assumption that what we theorise currently is all that is possible.

[indigopete]

which rests on an increasingly shaky notion that FTL travel is impossible.

Why is it "increasingly shaky" ? Because the internet rumourmill says so ?

People need to make a distinction between scientific institutions and scientific discoveries. They are two very distinct things and while one may bear close resemblance to the nearest politician in terms of integrity at times, there are very few of the other which have not held true throughout the ages - at least in the context they were brought into existence.

Newtons laws weren't invalidated by the discovery of quantum effects - they still apply at the scales of regular human consciousness and keep planes in the air. Similarly, the lightspeed limitation is likely to hold true for objects of finite mass - or at least it's the best of currently available thinking and can't be easily dismissed without a heavy dose of arrogance.


Cliff Stone who have had first-hand access. Of course it is always possible that people like Cliff Stone, Charles Hall, Bob Lazar are liars or that Stan Freidman, Richard Dolan, Micheal Shratt etc are wrong and you are right. But I don’t think so. Course you may think what you wish, but the ‘weight of evidence’ is all on one side: there is no evidence on the other side – just theory and not just that but an assumption that what we theorise currently is all that is possible.

I’m aware of the testimonies of all of these people which I believe are made in good faith, so I’m not claiming they are liars or even working to deceive. However it’s interesting hearsay thats open to interpretation, nothing more and people need to acknowledge that IMO. The human race en-masse is not in regular physical contact with aliens and is not travelling to other star systems - even Richard Dolan isn’t and would probably not have a clue how to if you asked him, so lets put some things into perspective when talking about “overwhelming evidence”.

Another thing to realise is this: Since the advent of the mass media and in particular web based media there is an ever growing blurring between metaphorical account and literal account. In particular, you’ll find that people who are comfortable with the interchangeability of our spiritual and physical existences use as literals what would otherwise be metaphorical terms to the rest of us.

As a great illustration of that, check out a book called “Two Thirds (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Two-Thirds-History-David-P-Myers/dp/1898541019): A History of Our Galaxy” by David Myers and David Percy. It is an epic tale - notionally fictional - that documents the spiritual ancestry of the human race with particular emphasis on its initial settlement on Mars and later evacuation to Earth following the great Martian cataclysm. That book is written in a style that genuinely does justice to the idea of interplanetary travel because, while there is continuity in the character’s existences, the implication is that they are incarnating in different parts of the universe over periods of millions of earth years. The physical realm is almost incidental to the story’s setting.

Seen from that more dimensionally comprehensive perspective, it is most definitely possible to be as casual as people like Bob Dean are about aliens and star travel. As I mentioned previously, it also doesn’t demand any dismissal of Einstein’s observations.

But if anyone is telling you that people are doing all that stuff while in a physical body, within a single physical lifetime, sitting in a metal craft with a little glass bubble on top - the chances are you’re probably being scammed.

[Joe Akulis]

Although one has to keep an open mind about such mind blowing topics, I remain quite sceptical about the whole alien-UFO phenomenon.


That's fine. But this thread wasn't really intended to debate the existence or possibility that other life exists. It was just to provide some interesting info. I think the comments that follow are more appropriate if they are aimed at discussion of the information from the original post. Turning the thread into a black and white debate about whether ETs exist kind of derails it off in another direction and maybe should've been saved for a dedicated post instead...






Mod edit from Bill: yes, this is very much a separate topic. I copied this post, and moved all the others above it, to create this new thread. The original thread where these were posted was NASA Preparing The World For The Big Event (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?90602-NASA-Preparing-The-World-For-The-Big-Event).

[indigopete]

Shouldn't this thread be more correctly named "do physical beings migrate between star systems" ?

There was no debate as to "Do ET's exist".

[PurpleLama]

Listen to more JPF, you will find his speculation that the reason that that the deep state was formed was because the sheer numbers of craft observed during and after WW2 was simply unaccountable by purely earth bound sources, Nazi or otherwise. In his interviews, he has made numerous references to our cosmic cousins.

http://www.thebyteshow.com/JosephPFarrell.html

[indigopete]

Listen to more JPF, you will find his speculation that the reason that that the deep state was formed was because the sheer numbers of craft observed during and after WW2 was simply unaccountable by purely earth bound sources, Nazi or otherwise. In his interviews, he has made numerous references to our cosmic cousins.

LoL ! The universe does not work like Hollywood says it works - even if JPF entertains it.

Beings do not hop about galaxies in "craft". I realise that it's kind of logical to think that way since we recently (in astronomical timescales) invented the motor car and so assume that thats how intergalactic travel works, but it isn't.

It's Hollywood programming and nothing else so please stop the humdrum.

[PurpleLama]

Everything is happening in real time, every human interaction. Sh!t matters, make no mistake.

[PurpleLama]

Psychic interactions are a million times more common than physical ones, and experiencers often times cannot tell the difference.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

It only takes one.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

Read your "mythology".

[PurpleLama]

I'm saying, if one interaction in a million is real, then physical ETs have indeed visited this planet (or at least mars). Either way, they are watching this game. I got it a long time ago (20 years), that if they talk about it on the TV, don't believe it, but when ET shows up on your lawn, and shakes your hand, believe it.

[Justplain]

Indigopete, i can not understand your logic in brushing off the evidence cited. Clifford Stone's testimony is conclusive, he saw little green men in crashed space craft. The disclosure project had witness testimony of those seeing photos of buildings on the dark side of the moon and spacecraft that were being airbrushed out of NASA photos. Mojo in Avalon has a library of ufo videos. The list goes on and on. But to you this is just worthless secondhand hearsay. I find your position undefendable.

Also, your own assumptions about our incarnating in this world is based on what proof? Certainly there's no more proof of our incarnating multiple times in this universe than there is of ET's being here. Also, our current scientific dogma doesn't take seriously the reincarnation subject because there is no scientific explanation. So why do you?

Of course, i am expecting you to counter with some double standard of evidence that you will allow to prove reincarnation but not the ET presence.

So with that, i choose to accept the evidence give by honest, sincere and credible witnesses. You can go back to your NASA spoonfed fantasy and believe that swamp gas explains the ufo phenomenon.

[Mike]

The ufo phenomena is a universal experience Pete. Millions of people all over the world have experienced some form of it. It may not be as universal as you'd like, but thats the problem with assumptions..especially with something as unpredicatable as ET's.

It is a little ironic that you so easily acknowledge the existence of reincarnation and non dimensional existences - 2 concepts that are easily on par with interstellar ET's in the "impossible to prove" category - but are so quick to dismiss visits from aliens from other star systems.;) why?


It's much easier for me to believe the countless testimonies of ufo contact than to disbelieve them. There is indeed overwhelming evidence suggesting the existence of ufo's, if one has done their research. It is utterly undeniable.

What we don't know is this: where they have come from? We simply assume theyre from the stars. A mistake? Yeah..maybe

You make alot of good points Pete. I'm not willing to completely write off interstellar ufo's..but its always been my belief that the majority of the phenomena is native to this planet. its always been here. I tend to side with John Keel and his "ultraterrestrial" hypothesis. It just makes more sense to me. But to dogmatically write off the idea of interstellar ufo's visiting earth makes little sense to me.

The only position that does make sense, to me, given what we as a species have experienced of "ufo's", is one of humility and open mindedness. My feeling is that this phenomena is infinitely more complex and layered than any of us can possibly imagine.

[Eram]

Hi indigopete,

I like your question, but I can't help to see some points in your logic that puzzle me.
You seem to make some assumptions to the probabilities of physical travel over long distances, such as many light years that might prove to be premature.
We simply do not have all the facts to ascertain whether or not it is possible to do it, so why jump to conclusions?
Perhaps there are ways to solve such a problem that are within the boundaries of physical laws. (portals perhaps?)

Also, you assign material qualities to physical life (rightfully so), but somehow remove those qualities from disincarnated life.
Why? :)
If there's life after physical death, isn't it much more probable that there are material aspects to that life as well (of a non physical nature)? .. and therefore earth (planet) bound as well?

Any way, how about all the art, mythology and stories from before WW2 where there's mention of UFO's and non human life forms?

http://i.imgur.com/4c1EVHi.jpg

There's too much of that to simply discard of it as some sort of insignificant anomalies.

Just the fact that there might be some sort of spin coming from tptb about alien invasions or something similar does not automatically rule out the possibility of real ET life forms visiting earth does it? :)

[thunder24]

well what about break away civilizations from the past... if one is born off planet but parents from earth, are they not considered alien?

[mojo]

I hope one day you witness "them." Eyewitness testimony can be offered, but totally understand seeing is the only answer for some. Even with contact it didnt go as expected because always ended up being the bystander. It would have been awesome to go on-board, travel and meet them up close. If being honest with myself, it's still a part of what motivates me, maybe having the chance to go deeper after "seeing"... Didnt get all the answers I was looking for either. But, actually seeing other lifeforms, what else could one hope for? It's something you can never forget afterwards and like myself would have a difficult time walking away from, even after 7 years. It's almost a double edged sword though and could list a few negatives easy...and so would highly recommend people contact others that resonate with your own belief in helping to find the answers. Guess you could also go solo, it was that way for me but hindsight being 20-20, would have done it differently. Would have loved to gotten the insight.

[shaberon]

This may seem like a value judgement or bias; it probably is.

Reincarnation doesn't mesh very well as being related to the question. It's an axiomatic basis for spiritual development. Because we are not very spiritually developed, our psyches are rather weak.

On the other hand, the ET or any other objective question, has nothing to do with spiritual development. The way we deal with objective or worldly questions gives us examples of the weakness of the psyche; which could be generalized as either too sensitive to impressions, or too limited to receive them.

By being too sensitive, that would imply that a person who spoke the truth of an ET encounter had been "under a spell", or that their psyche had wrapped "something" into a form. By being too limited, would be an utter refusal to admit any such thing is possible.

UFOs don't equal ETs. There are a lot more reports of strange flying craft, by thousands, than of encounters. Their existence seems fairly well established, but it could just as well be terrestrial phenomena.

I tend to be skeptical about it, and almost non chalant, like if it became an obvious fact, it would be a statistic like finding another kind of fish that's been there all along.

[indigopete]

Indigopete, i can not understand your logic in brushing off the evidence cited. Clifford Stone's testimony is conclusive, he saw little green men in crashed space craft

He saw “little green men” isn’t the same thing as seeing an “ET”.

This is what Im trying to point out. Everybody’s brainwashed with Hollywood concepts of what extra terrestrial contact would look like. It’s a kind of Mikey Mouse portrayal that bears no relation to the reality of inter stellar existence. I realise it’s difficult to see it that way if one is the subject of such brainwashing onesself - “hey this guy saw ET’s so they must be here” - but if you sit down and really think about it for a few years the illusion eventually washes off.


The ufo phenomena is a universal experience Pete. Millions of people all over the world have experienced some form of it. It may not be as universal as you'd like, but thats the problem with assumptions..especially with something as unpredicatable as ET's.

What have they experienced ? Do you actually know first hand of anyone who’s physically travelled to another planet and back ? Have you ever experienced it yourself ? Has anyone on this planet ?

Have a look around you - at the unbelievable diversity of species that surrounds our existence. Where do you think that diversity comes from ? Those ARE the aliens, right here under your nose and they didn’t get here in spaceships. The idea of interstellar transport in a single lifetime is a metaphor for reality but it is not reality. You are here, on this Planet. When your existence is contextualised in universal timescales, you are just as alien to it as the “little green men” and so is every other species.

Yet you got here somehow and it wasn’t in a disk-shaped craft.


It is a little ironic that you so easily acknowledge the existence of reincarnation and non dimensional existences - 2 concepts that are easily on par with interstellar ET's in the "impossible to prove" category - but are so quick to dismiss visits from aliens from other star systems.;) why?

I don’t dismiss “visits from aliens” at all. I’m just saying we are them. They don’t move around in material vehicles and it’s not difficult to arrive at that conclusion if you take off the Hollywood goggles for a minute.

The universe is holographic. It isn’t like some kind of big 3-D space that you can jump around from one point to the other as if you’re in a big hall. That’s only possible at the most tiny of of scales such as that in which we live our daily lives.

If you want to see aliens, look out the window or visit a jungle. You’ll learn more than standing idly with your jaw on the floor waiting for NASA to present the next chapter in the Hollywood fantasy ;)

[Cidersomerset]

Although one has to keep an open mind about such mind blowing topics,
I remain quite sceptical about the whole alien-UFO phenomenon.

All I can say from all the dots I've connected over the last few decades from
our solar system being the only known one with planets going around its
sun to thousands exo planets projected to be billions of them that if we are
unique it would be very odd imo.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?90586-Kepler-telescope-discovers-100th-Earth-sized-planets-9-of-which-are-in-the-goldilocks-zone...

From that premise/speculation there are all the stories, myths , legends
right up to all the witness statements , abuductions , sighting and the
101 topics we discuss in the UFO/ET part of the alternate research
community. Are ET's real ? I have not seen or spoken to one to my
knowledge ? but that applies to a lot of things .

As for Joseph Farrells and others views and research , they make
compelling arguments , but it does not feel quite right but who
knows ?....Certainly I think the NAZI could of developed UFO tech
from their alleged interaction with a race from Aldebaran. But
there is so much information about ET's , inter dimensionals and
other entities thoughout history it would be surpising if it is all
down to human imagination, though earlier earth based high tech
civilisations may have risen and fallen in antiquity like Atlantis ?
Also future us visiting from the future is another possibility as
speculated by some like Dan Burish.

Though as Ion says we are all 'wonderfull human creators'...
Or we could be living in a matrix ? or sailing thru the universe
on the back of a 'flat' earth disc world resting on four elephants
on the back of a giant Turtle ...LOL ( That is a joke,as I watched
the Terry Pratchet movie going postal the other night...


I have done so many threads that have connected dots as I said it
all points to me ET exists . But I personally cannot verify or prove it
only go by what others have researched and reported....

a few recent ones,for anyone looking in..

Buzzsaw: Anunnaki History and Alien Gods Revealed with Gerald Clark... Planet X Orbit Leak Project
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?90468-Buzzsaw-Anunnaki-History-and-Alien-Gods-Revealed-with-Gerald-Clark...-Planet-X-Orbit-Leak-Project

Ep. 453 FADE to BLACK Jimmy Church w/ Linda Moulton Howe: Earth Files
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?90637-Ep.-453-FADE-to-BLACK-Jimmy-Church-w-Linda-Moulton-Howe-Earth-Files

New ET and Nazi UFOs Whistleblower William Tompkins (now 92 yrs)
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?89312-New-ET-and-Nazi-UFOs-Whistleblower-William-Tompkins--now-92-yrs-

Not so recent...
XCon 2005 - Charles Hall - The Tall Whites - ET Experiences in the Nevada Desert

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?50137-XCon-2005-Charles-Hall-The-Tall-Whites-ET-Experiences-in-the-Nevada-Desert

[Cidersomerset]

This is synchronistic in some respects I posted this on Giovanis
thread for the Jon Rappaport segment which starts 32 mins in.
He is talking about the internet and mentions that Jimmy was
talking about UFO's at the beginning of the show. I just listened
to it to see what he was saying and he is reflecting the state of
Ufology and some of it is relevant here I think ? its only a 10
minute summery of his current thoughts as he sees it.


Starts approx. 15mins to approx. 26 mins in

n-5odtqW_Do

Published on 13 May 2016


Another Thursday...another FADERNIGHT...John Rappoport joins us with
his No More Fake News Room and he discusses the internet...as only he can.
This is an amazing presentation...then we take calls from around the world...
and we give away a bunch of T Shirts to first time callers...very cool.

[Agape]

Good thinking Pete but typically naive where it comes to judging phenomena you've never experienced yourself . But please , do not blame you or me or anyone else for 'inexperience' .
It's simple as claiming something does not exist just because it's not accessible to everyone on this planet therefor it can not exist .
Such as interstellar travel and so forth .

Todays physical theories and technical achievements and your conclusions are based on hundred or two centuries of technical revolution . If you were to introduce the idea of airplane to people of 15th century or showed them your computer they'd probably think you're either a magician or an alien .
It does not mean there were no people who HAD an idea of airplanes that would fly back then , think of Leonardo Da Vinci .

But for the average Sunday church goer who was the 'right thinker' of those days it made every common sense that something so heavy would 'never fly'.


The Universe is billion times older than you think of so how can you be so sure there is no more advanced life out there, no more advanced physics , technologies ,
and I do agree with you about 'we are them' .

By earthly means , it just takes time 'to get there' .

I've seen ETs and technologies capable of traversing the space faster than you blink an eye , why do you think 'they' feel the need to prove themselves to 'us' who need to take our own road in the epic battle for survival of intelligent species ..

[Bill Ryan]

.
My favorite comment on this topic, perfect in my strong opinion as a one-line summary, was by Sean David Morton at the start of a conference presentation back in (I think) 2011-12.



"Do ETs exist? Duh !!!"

[indigopete]

Todays physical theories and technical achievements and your conclusions are based on hundred or two centuries of technical revolution . If you were to introduce the idea of airplane to people of 15th century or showed them your computer they'd probably think you're either a magician or an alien .
It does not mean there were no people who HAD an idea of airplanes that would fly back then , think of Leonardo Da Vinci .

You're making the assumption that interstellar travel is all about advanced technology.

It isn't. Thats the point I'm trying to make.

I agree that we can't project today's conventions on tomorrow's reality, but I see the 'flat earth' people as those who believe in a physical alien presence that has arrived from distances of light years away in some kind of craft.

Those are the people that are seeing everything through today's conventions, not using their imagination and simply swallowing a media-delivered perspective on the subject.

The idea that interstellar travel is no more than an advanced version of the "motor car" is slightly ludicrous if you think about it, yet it lies at the heart of the flawed interpretation of the UFO phenomenon asserted by many posts in this thread. It is a perspective that only emerged substantially in the technological era and was hammered into place during the era of mass media. That basically tells you all you need to know about its veracity.

Simply assuming that we'll be able to do things tomorrow that we can't do today is not "thinking out of the box". "Thinking out of the box" is a mindset that involves getting rid of preconceptions. In this case, the preconception that an alien being is more or less what you see in Star Trek - an "us and them" scenario where the "them" is defined by physical remoteness, technological prowess and exotic appearance.

This is nothing more than a projection of our own aspirations and perspectives. It's barely more developed thinking than putting cowboys and indians in space suits.

I'm sorry, in my opinion, what you saw is not "ET"s. At least not ones that got here in a spacesuit from lightyears away. I respect your right to convince yourself of that but the phenomenon is local (IMO).

[Bill Ryan]

I'm sorry, what you saw is not "ET"s. At least not ones that got here in a spacesuit from lightyears away. I respect your right to convince yourself of that but the phenomenon is local.

In your opinion, of course. You omitted to include that.

[Agape]

It's a completely futile debate for both of us under the current level of discussion, I can assure you .

Pity I usually come to Bill Ryans forum out of mistake and when feeling like to be drowned in ocean .. instead doing it, actually.

:Angel:

[indigopete]

In your opinion, of course. You omitted to include that.

Sorry - now corrected ;)

[indigopete]

It's a completely futile debate for both of us under the current level of discussion, I can assure you

No more so than than the debate that's been going on for the last 40 years.

The thing is, these discussion always revolve around what people did or didn't see, did or didn't experience etc. It tends to be overly anecdotal. Thats the real reason for the sense of futility IMO because you're constantly relying on second or third hand experiences or accounts who's degree of metaphor is ambigious.

There's very little consideration given to developing the actual nature of the reality we inhabit or playing with different types of hypothetical archetypes to escape the constraints of contemporary conditioning.

For example, lets say you were an external observer of the universe who's consciousness was pitched at a level where you sensed time at a vastly scaled up rate compared to human beings. Say, 1 second for you represented 50,000 earth years. You'd still get quite bored watching the universe develop because it would last around 80 hours.

However, you'd notice one interesting thing. Entire civilisations would suddenly appear and disappear around the place.

You'd notice something else. They apparently didn't transport themselves physically to their "arrival points", they just spontaneously emerged on the surface of planets. Then in about 10 seconds they were gone and would apparently re-appear somewhere else.

Meanwhile, undetectable to you (because it's happening at a faster rate than the resolution of your consciousness) individual beings within those societies are doing exactly the same thing - spontaneously appearing and disappearing.

What would you deduce from these observations ?

You'd have to draw one of two conclusions:

[1] - the 'beings' were already on the planet all the time, just in some kind of hibernating state

or

[2] - some kind of interchangeable field phenomenon was in play that connected everything but allowed for discrete precipitation into biological matter anywhere in the universe that supported it (much like the relationship between water vapour and raindrops)

In the latter case, the concept of 'interstellar transport' is moot. Sticking with the consciousness resolution of our external observer friend, the idea of one of those civilisations setting to work on building a physical vehicle to transport them around the place while they're stopped off at their 'station' is kind of ludicrous. It would make about as much sense as taking a transatlantic flight on holiday and then building a rowing boat to get you back, citing it as "advanced technology".

Thats why I say the the UFO phenomenon is largely interpreted in metaphor. Because we simply haven't got ourselves out of the "ant" perspective and we think the rowing boat must be advanced since we're not aware of the plane that brought us here in the first place. Nor does the media encourage us to think that way - it simply wouldn't sell. People need to recognise native archetypes in the entertainment they consume. Hence - for all it's science fictional modernity - Star Trek is barely distinguishable from an episode of Bonanza (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0052451/) in terms of story lines.

I'd check that book out - "Two Thirds". It really does blow one's mind and brings a whole new perspective to seeing ourselves and our existence, whatever you think of the implied historical narrative regarding Mars etc.

[Cidersomerset]

My favorite comment on this topic, perfect in my strong opinion as a one-
line summary, was by Sean David Morton at the start of a conference presentation
back in (I think) 2011-12.

"Do ETs exist? Duh !!!"


That's certainly my 'gut reaction' and as I said in previous post everything tells
me they exist. I just cannot personally prove it from first hand experience that
I know of......Which is also what Jimmy Church was getting at and the Duh!
quote reminded me of Homer " Do ETs exist? Doh !!!"

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/b5/8d/b8/b58db80499a3c5f51b7f1e39139ea3ba.jpg

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I know this is not proof of ET existence , but certainly gives more probability they do for me.....

NASA telescope discovers largest collection of planets ever

T6Ie0mgiM04

Published on 13 May 2016

NASA announced that their Kepler telescope discovered the largest collection of
planets outside our solar system, which doubled the agency’s list of known
exoplanets. The term ‘exoplanet’ refers to any planet in space that orbits a star
other than the sun. RT America’s Manuel Rapalo delves deep into the science.

Find RT America in your area: http://rt.com/where-to-watch/
Or watch us online: http://rt.com/on-air/rt-america-air/

====================================================
====================================================

NASA planet discovery: Kepler space telescope finds 1,284 new planets in our galaxy - TomoNews

uab8QuyywII

Published on 11 May 2016


WASHINGTON — NASA's Kepler mission, launched in 2009 and with two more years
to go, has detected 1,284 new exoplanets, including nine worlds that may be able
to sustain life.

NASA announced on Tuesday that the Kepler Space Telescope, which searches for
planets in our Milky Way that lie up to 3,000 light years from Earth, has verified
1,284 new planets. Five hundred and fifty appear to be rocky based on their size.
Of these 550, nine are located just far enough from their suns to suggest they may
contain water.

The latest finding nearly doubles the number of confirmed exoplanets and is the
largest number of new planets announced at one time, reported Space.

According to NASA's statement, the new findings can be credited to a computer
simulation and a new statistical method that takes into account such factors as how
many total stars are in our galaxy.

The total number of exoplanets discovered now stands at 3,200. A total of 21 of
these may be habitable. The Kepler mission shows that with at least 70 billion stars
in our galaxy, there may be billions of habitable, Earth-sized planets out there that
have yet to be discovered.

[Agape]

No more so than than the debate that's been going on for the last 40 years.

The thing is, these discussion always revolve around what people did or didn't see, did or didn't experience etc. It tends to be overly anecdotal. Thats the real reason for the sense of futility IMO because you're constantly relying on second or third hand experiences or accounts who's degree of metaphor is ambigious.

I'm not relying on anyones elses experiences, sorry . And i do understand you don't want to do the same thing either .
'..tends to be anecdotal ..' ? There you are , very far away from truth . You probably just wanted to repeat the well known scientifically sounding cliche about 'the evidence is anecdotal' .
That comes of course from mouths and ears of thousands of well known scientific authorities who took hard stand against the ET/UFO contact phenomena without ever researching it ,
or ..to give them some credit .. just watching the margins .

Reading sci-fi books or watching movies as you said too, may probably evolve your imaginative process and thinking in some areas but as 'first-liner' I would say,
it does not bring you closer to understanding about ET life or what is being discussed between people who experienced it .

I understand the point you make against installer travel - at the beginning of so called 21st century on earth with data available to you currently - but the perspective you're offering is older than both of us and getting more outdated as we speak .

There were indeed such trends supported by physicists of the last century who doubted the option of interstellar travel in its entirety and some try to hold to their theories to this day
but on the other hand there are just countless other , even hypothetical options to consider .

The initiative to build a ship capable of interstellar travel was already launched

http://100yss.org

under the joint auspices of NASA, DARPA and couple of other 'big fellows' .

There are tons of interesting ideas being explored about energy sources you've perhaps never thought about and many original pathways to take .
It does not mean all of them lead to success but some will .

Your perspective looks like a well paved , safe for you avenue but if you want to think or talk of hyperspace physics you'll have to broaden your views to 'limitless' .

Your idea of 'quantum universe' where everyone lives eternally disconnected from everyone else is a poster child of stagnating version of Einsteins relativity theory that itself has numberless implications and applications
but does not automatically prove what kind of Universe are we abiding in and how it started or functions in large ,
it merely explains how it may function and does between particular physical systems of certain mass .
In another words , the Universe of your imagination gets stuck in its own relativity .

What you forget to consider here , 100 years after Einstein .. is that 'time' is no separate dimension from Space and its quality is equally relative ,
depending on the quality of evolution of timespace as we know it .. and from any local view point , we can maximally predict the rest .

Therefor .. you can't practically refute the existence of variety of spacetime proportions/parameters that aren't available in 'this corner of Universe' and this particular Solar system,
you can't refute the existence of much older and differently evolved spacetime where celestial bodies last for billions of their own years,
life has existed long before this 'spacetime' evolved itself to the category we are familiar with and that intelligent entities do not exist who were/are able to utilise different resources than those known to us and master 'interstellar travel' .

I'm really not to StarTrek so please forgive if I miss some of your argument there but i insist that exploring some of todays adventurous physical theories would bring you far more entertainment than sci-fi movies .


It's not the right place and thread in my opinion to discuss what i've seen or know of but if you can use the simple forum software functions, it's not difficult to find out .

However . Without studying any one case to depth, myself , I'd not dare to dismiss the case or person firsthands or dismiss the scientific opportunity to do so , if i were you.

[indigopete]

Your idea of 'quantum universe' where everyone lives eternally disconnected from everyone else is a poster child of stagnating version of Einsteins relativity theory that itself has numberless implications and applications

With respect, you seem to have misinterpreted my view.

I wasn't suggesting we were "disconnected" other than physically for an infinitesimally small period of time. Compare the amount of time that any given individual is alive to the amount of time they are not. It's a split second in the overall scheme of things.

The idea that they would attempt physical interstellar travel in that instant is what I'm saying is nonsensical. It just isn't a reasonable assumption to make when put into an appropriate perspective (and assumptions are all we have when interpreting the UFO phenomenon).

There are other ways of looking at this which can possibly reconcile a lot of apparently disparate perspectives.

For example, I've often speculated that dream states or meditative states actually involve some aspect of inter-dimensional travel. Or, conversely, that our thoughts are not as autonomous as they appear and could actually be expressions of other beings that we "transduce" into recognised archetypes.

An interesting parallel with mainstream science is that if that were to be true it may explain the sense of time speeding up or slowing down. For example when we wake up from a deep sleep, time seems to have passed almost instantaneously since we were last awake and if our "souls" were in fact travelling at or near lightspeed that is exactly what Einstein's theories say would happen. You'd return to base thinking barely a second had passed.

I don't mean to diminish the value of your own experiences which have clearly had a profound impact on your view of reality, but at the same time they are subjective. They are not "evidence" of interstellar travel that can carry weight with anyone but yourself. Thats what I meant by anecdotal accounts.

[Gerald Paris]

Idigopete, of course there could be a big psy-op about much of the ufo phenomenon, however to say that interstellar visitation does not take place here or might not be taking place, would be ignoring the facts. Eye witness UFO encounters world wide...To ignore this evidence of offworlder visitations here is to deny the facts, imo.

How is any of that evidence of "alien visitations" ?

All it is is evidence of Hollywood's projection of "alien visitations". None of us have any clue as to what the characteristics of alien life are so we have no reference points. The "reference points" have all been supplied to us by the media.

I do not think that testimony of abductions, cattle mutilations, sightings of high performance craft are evidence of anything other than strange phenomena that can only be accounted for by secret technology or other earthbound sources.

They could of course be "alien" as you say. All I'm saying is that it's highly unlikely - as in less likely than seeing a genuine flying pig.

The thing is, it's very difficult to travel to other planets, but it's very easy to convince people of stuff. In this case, the reason it's easy is because most cannot (or do not) make an intuitive appraisal of the practicalities involved. They think that interstellar travel is like airline travel - just something thats waiting to be invented.

It isn't.

There is no such thing as interstellar travel as far as incarnate beings goes because mass - almost by definition - is a destination in its own right, not a vehicle. It would be like trying to move the whole of London to New York just let one Londoner visit New York. Completely pointless.

If we were really being "visited" you wouldn't be seeing the odd glimpse of a shimmering light. You'd have half of every main street teaming with aliens. Hey, guess what - we do !! They're called us and we arrive in bodies, not saucers LoL :highfive:

Seriously though, this phenomenon is not something arriving from other planets IMO and people should start waking up to that likelihood.

Thank you for adding this to the conversation. a much needed perspective.

G

[kemo]

a much needed perspective.

No it isn’t. It’s the same shtick from the same poster from whom I’m quite sure we’ve had all this before. It’s a completely theoretical point of view against a mountain of evidence from abductees/contactees, researchers and whistleblowers. I’d advise PA members not to waste their time responding because you’d be banging your head against a brick wall. One thing I can’t stand is the unbearable smugness of guys like this. As well as being a theoretical physicist he’s also an expert on the psychology of the ETs which he claims don’t exist. We don’t need silly analogies about driving motor cars thank you. FTL does not mean travelling in the physical universe. Ben Rich said all points in space and time connected – and he should have known. Makes sense to me. If we had it sure as hell we’d be doing exactly that in a machine with necessary life support and equipment. David Jacobs makes the very telling point from his hypnotic regressions of abductees that ET craft are designed for human subjects. Why? We don’t know. And btw it may be that our notions of ET may be influenced by popular media but in a huge variety of ways and as I recall it is said that Gene Roddenbury based Star Trek partly on channelled information so it may be a ‘chicken and egg’ scenario as to whether our ideas of what ET is like were deliberately implanted. However, this is not an argument. Anyway, I’m out of this thread. Can’t be arsed. Guy's just having a laugh.

[ozmirage]

The "real" Close Encounter - - -

2001 : A Space Odyssey
[Spoiler Alert] One of the best explanations as to why “2001" is so inscrutable may be due to what one reviewer (lost the link) postulated.


... How would you feel if you met an actual extraterrestrial intelligence that had absolutely no referential connection to anything remotely human? It could not speak nor understand what you were communicating. Would you feel bewildered, confused, upset, and frustrated?

If this was Kubrick’s intention, to give the audience a visceral experience of meeting a non-human intelligence, the masses who came out of the movie bewildered and confused was proof he succeeded.

Which may explain why he refused to explain what the movie “really” meant. To end your confusion would confound the desired effect.
...
Our encounters with truly alien beings may well leave us bewildered, confused, upset, and frustrated.

[KiwiElf]

Thank you for adding this to the conversation. a much needed perspective.



Much needed by whom? The FE Society or people living under a rock? :bigsmile:

[Agape]

Your idea of 'quantum universe' where everyone lives eternally disconnected from everyone else is a poster child of stagnating version of Einsteins relativity theory that itself has numberless implications and applications

With respect, you seem to have misinterpreted my view.

I wasn't suggesting we were "disconnected" other than physically for an infinitesimally small period of time. Compare the amount of time that any given individual is alive to the amount of time they are not. It's a split second in the overall scheme of things.

The idea that they would attempt physical interstellar travel in that instant is what I'm saying is nonsensical. It just isn't a reasonable assumption to make when put into an appropriate perspective (and assumptions are all we have when interpreting the UFO phenomenon).

There are other ways of looking at this which can possibly reconcile a lot of apparently disparate perspectives.

For example, I've often speculated that dream states or meditative states actually involve some aspect of inter-dimensional travel. Or, conversely, that our thoughts are not as autonomous as they appear and could actually be expressions of other beings that we "transduce" into recognised archetypes.

An interesting parallel with mainstream science is that if that were to be true it may explain the sense of time speeding up or slowing down. For example when we wake up from a deep sleep, time seems to have passed almost instantaneously since we were last awake and if our "souls" were in fact travelling at or near lightspeed that is exactly what Einstein's theories say would happen. You'd return to base thinking barely a second had passed.

I don't mean to diminish the value of your own experiences which have clearly had a profound impact on your view of reality, but at the same time they are subjective. They are not "evidence" of interstellar travel that can carry weight with anyone but yourself. Thats what I meant by anecdotal accounts.


Sorry again but not me .. you are ..or seem to be misinterpreting peoples experiences as 'subjective' , simply because you've never researched the whole cases and the evidence trail .

Please notice , I'm not attacking your views either, just saying .. yours is ( or maybe ) the hearsay .

From the only encounter I ever gave a real value ( vis the Bodhgaya ET Event Report ) and reported and that's how I found myself to be part of this project/forum and this present moment ,

I can say NO, there's sky difference between any dream, vision, lucid dream , subjective experience .. I had many of those in my life too and so did other people ..and what happens if you ( by any chance ) happen to experience encounter with an ET.

I'm searching for words really and would love to tell you the difference but ... I fear you may not be quite open to the idea . And, I'm not to arguments at all.

1. The 'time of the event' is substantial . If something 'happens' in split of human second then it is, most probably human perception/dream.
It's the 'neuronal speed' so to say, the speed your neural synapses connect and talk to each other by thousands, each nano sec.
Get trained in observing your own mind ( far far better than watching TV, I'm telling you ) and you will see what the neuroscientist can see in their lab .
The way brain keeps talking . Imagining .

I do quite condone the opinion that 99.9% of 'experiences' fall into that category ..

but the remaining 0,01% is something you have no idea what and how it happens because it never happened to you or someone you know.
It's not 'like OBE'. It's not like NDE. It's not like anything else .

The time is substantial. ET encounters happen in our time, their time and in proportional spacetime 'collision' in between ,
so they do last an amount of time that you can discern and calculate .

More than less , the time tends to be 'clearly defined' rather than just 'blending ' to your ordinary version of reality . That's NOT how it happens .
There's 'from' and 'to' . You likely know precisely when it starts and when it ended .

Check with any abductee/contactee people and if they're not able to define the contact in time-space settings they may be just 'speaking in tongues' .

2. There's an amount of intelligence , information , you get during the ET contact experience you would never get/hear/see otherwise.
Not from anyone in this world . Even if you may not be able to reproduce or use that information immediately you still know what it is, it's been given to you and its value.

Again, if people tell you they have 'experiences' and it's being some sort of 'usual stuff' , it's not it. They ARE dreaming about it because it's what we're all capable of,
dreaming and imagining . Dreams are rarely 'news' .
They're mostly 'the old stuff' .
When people say 'talking to ETs' about light&love, with most probability it is their 'higher mind chat' .

IF it's ETs, and they DO want to make themselves known , the communication may be so highly unusual that you either 'back up' and forget it or remember it for the rest of your life .
They aren't 'like humans' . They 'aren't' made of your dream stuff . I'm saying this with responsibility to the broader audience and after i've done much research/observation of what's going on in the alternative communities and people reporting experiences all the time. So for the benefit of the general reader ..

stop imagining . ETs don't care you're imagining or not.

3. You have no choice than to keep your feet on the ground so to say . It's a widespread and general misunderstanding that ET encounters are somehow 'spiritual' , 'mystical' and therefor 'fascinating' .
No, it's humans who are 'spiritual' , 'mystical' and 'fascinating' .

IF you happen to have an encounter with an ET, you're most probably trying to take hold of reality with the strongest grip possible, even subconsciously , take hold of reality . You'll be more awake than you're now .

People 'being spiritual' thinking that's how ETs are really don't know what's the difference.
As human beings .. we are also 'natural ETs' ( i have to agree with Pete here ) and we're very spiritual. We can make up for all of that 'space stuff' . Yes. But ..

that's not how any such encounter is, fyi.

4. They do leave traces and do change human timeline , unlike the speculation goes . Something , if not everything will change profoundly from the time of the encounter .

5. Do your own maths. There is usually .. lots of maths to do . No maths, no ETs.

If it's 'simple' it may have been 'your dream' . Any ET contact experience is bound to be indefinitely complicated and will leave you in shock or in awe for many years to come ,
with data you can't share with most humans .

If you're not careful enough it may also kill you that's how confusing it can get.


P.S. : There are ways how to 'induce' or 'introduce' the ET reality to other sensitive humans but not everyone are so receptive, the force ( even intelligence is a force ) is not inexhaustible and it, generally works only in real time as well .

Again, don't get 'it' confused with peoples shamanic visions , psycho-spiritual powers and experiences and 'all the other stuff' .

It's something very rare . I'm sorry that i can't actually show you this way .


That's from my side of things => :sun:

[KiwiElf]

Methodology of the Condon Report and skeptics such as Phillip Klass:

Of all the evidence available, choose the 10% which is most easily explainable and base your entire report and conclusions on that. Disregard the other 90% of evidence to the contrary - it "doesn't exist".

[indigopete]

Methodology of the Condon Report and skeptics such as Phillip Klass:

Of all the evidence available, choose the 10% which is most easily explainable and base your entire report and conclusions on that. Disregard the other 90% of evidence to the contrary - it "doesn't exist".

Abduction reports and accounts of encounters such as that of Agape are interesting and profound, but they're not evidence of beings having travelled here from lightyears away. That is a massive assumption - nothing else. (IMO).

There are 7 Billion people on this planet. That is a lot of people. Each one with a distinct, totally unique experience and interpretation of their reality. Maybe thats something people should reflect on before jumping to lazy conclusions that happen to comply with the default narrative for unexplained events.

[KiwiElf]

I can't "prove" the Eiffel tower exists, or the Sun will come up tomorrow either ... but I "know" it does and will

[indigopete]

I can't "prove" the Eiffel tower exists, or the Sun will come up tomorrow either ... but I "know" it does and will

You'd find rather more consensus on that than you would on the other thing ;)

[KiwiElf]

You'd find rather more consensus on that than you would on the other thing

*BINGO* - What would I find?, Eyewitness accounts, maps and photographs and expert opinions & statements? Sounds like a pretty familiar concensus for "the other thing"? :). Let's face it - that isn't proof if I never see it for myself. It's just "evidence"... until I do. If you don't look, you won't "see".

People who only look at black & white, yes & no absolutist answers will never find them. There is no single answer to anything.

IMO, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle had it right when he said,

"When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"

Guess that depends on the definition of what's impossible? :)

[Justplain]

Indigopete, you sound like a flat earth guy, no photograghs of a round earth count because they could be doctored, astronaut testimony doesnt count cuz its subjective, etc.

Did you know you've never seen a box? Only a side or two at a time. You assume its a box from memory experience.

There is no experiment you can do from within yourself that proves you exist.

Clifford Stone psychically connected with ET crash survivors. He knew they came from across the stars.

Believe what you want, Pete, your arguments for your position are pretensious to me, like you 'know' ftl travel is not possible. I choose to beleive those who have more credibility than you.

[indigopete]

Indigopete, you sound like a flat earth guy, no photograghs of a round earth count because they could be doctored

I'm sorry to labour this point, but we don't have photographs of any "round earth". Testimonies of people who say they had "psychic connections to ET crash survivors" are meaningless, other than by way of allusory reference.

That in no way, shape or form equates to a photograph of a "round earth".

We've just lived through an entire century of essentially mass hypnosis by media. We know people can be convinced of almost anything. Stick them up on a stage and tell them they're eating an apple when it's actually an onion, send them to war to massacre anonymous individuals with whom they've absolutely no disagreement, torch themselves to death in the name of imaginary idols - you name it.

There is clearly some genuine phenomenon going on with the UFO/abductee stuff. It has without doubt resulted in everything from widespread intrigue to genuine distress amongst victims. But sticking our heads in the sand and religiously asserting it's aliens from lightyears away when thats probably the least likely cause is just giving cover to the real nature of these events.

I don't claim to know what that is but I think I have a pretty good idea what it isn't and nothing that's been presented here or anywhere else has offered up anything to change that view. When something is not fully understood it's always easy to attribute its nature to something else thats equally badly understood. While I respect those who genuinely feel they've encountered beings from lightyears away and do not wish to patronise them or belittle their experiences, thats what's going on here IMO.

I just came to the conclusion in the last couple of years that it's a false agenda who's bluff must be called for there to be any progress in understanding its true nature.

[Flowerpunkchip]

Just throwing this in the mix
A few of my favourite UFO quotes

"Of course flying saucers are real -- and they are interplanetary." - Air Chief Marshall Lord Dowding, former head of Royal Air Force during World War II; August 1954


Scott Carpenter Astronaut -
“At no time, when the astronauts were in space were they alone: there was a constant surveillance by UFOs.”


“There is abundant evidence that we are being contacted, that civilizations have been monitoring us for a very long time. That their appearance is bizarre from any type of traditional materialistic western point of view. That these visitors use the technologies of consciousness, they use toroids, they use co-rotating magnetic disks for their propulsion systems, that seems to be a common denominator of the UFO phenomenon.” – Dr. Brian O’Leary, Former NASA Astronaut and Princeton Physics Professor

"I can assure you that flying saucers, given that they exist, are not constructed by any power on earth." - President Harry S. Truman, Press conference, Washington DC, April 4, 1950

"I was testing a P-51 fighter in Minneapolis when I spotted this object. I was at about 10,000 feet on a nice, bright, sunny afternoon. I thought the object was a kite, then I realized that no kite is going to fly that high. As I got closer it looked like a weather balloon, gray and about three feet in diameter. But as soon as I got behind the darn thing it didn't look like a balloon anymore. It looked like a saucer, a disk. About the same time, I realized that it was suddenly going away from me , and there I was, running at about 300 miles per hour. I tracked it for a little way, and then all of a sudden the damn thing just took off. It pulled about a 45 degree climbing turn and accelerated and just flat disappeared."
Donald "Deke" Slayon, NASA Mercury Astronaut

"It is my thesis that flying saucers are real and that they are space ships from another solar system. I think that they possibly are manned by intelligent observers who are members of a race that may have been investigating our earth for centuries. I think that they possibly have been sent out to conduct systematic, long-range investigations, first of men, animals, vegetation, and more recently of atomic centers, armaments and centers of armament production.
These objects are conceived and directed by intelligent beings of a very high order. They probably do not originate in our solar system, perhaps not even in our galaxy."
Dr. Hermann Oberth Army Ballistic Missile Agency and later NASA, 1954

"I've been convinced for a long time that the flying saucers are real and interplanetary. In other words, we are being watched by beings from outer space."
Albert M. Chop, Deputy Public Relations Director, NASA former USAF spokesman for Project Blue Book.

[shaberon]

Some of this is getting a little snide.

As someone kind of "on the fence" about it, that thwarts my curiosity. I'm in the odd position of believing that all worlds are inhabited, but not by physical beings. Just statistically speaking, I'd give it the benefit of the doubt that there might be someone physical in the 10-20 light year range, perhaps on a few of the observed "Goldilocks" planets--or maybe they are so weird, like Lovecraft's "Fungi from Yuggoth" (Pluto) that the "Goldilocks" factor itself is not necessary.

I'm pretty hesitant about most things saying they travel to our planet.

The vernacular that has gone around for years about visitors, has not prompted SETI or any large mainstream body to come out and say "that's exactly right". Sure, one can surmise they're paid not to do that. But it basically takes repeatable measurements to establish physical existence; and that usually has to pass a lot of peer review. Black holes were able to do that out of a theory, there weren't a bunch of stories about them, waiting for verification. Lots of things that were merely ideas turned out to be valid. But even though we have Presidents making suggestive statements, we don't have many repeatable measurements.

[Sunny-side-up]

Just pop'd onto to your post, haven't read all of it yet, but first thing that I want to confirm is!

Are you talking about Aliens' or ET's you do know that they are total different!

and if one is possible the other is also I.E if breakaway/ancient humans can become beings from other planet/s and so reach other planets then so can Aliens that did not originate from 'Mother-Earth'

Rambling there, should wake up first before I type :)

Things truly not what you might think (Think) they are here (Here) on Earth. Reality ?

As for FTL travel, well there is the equations and now hidden work of many a great math/physicist of the 20' 30 etc that show it is possible. Things like the 'Jump-Chair' technology is obtainable. Said technology gets around the need for speed (speed-distance in our programmed mind is just a constraint jailer)

[Bill Ryan]

FTL does not mean travelling in the physical universe. Ben Rich said all points in space and time are connected – and he should have known.


Yep. Here's what he said, on record, or witnessed by close associates:

http://projectavalon.net/Ben_Rich_quotes_1.gif

http://projectavalon.net/Ben_Rich_quotes_2.gif

http://projectavalon.net/Ben_Rich_quotes_3.gif

I'm not going to enter into a debate on this subject with someone who seems to have a rigid belief system (of denial)... but some of the points here are interesting and are worth digging into a little deeper.

1) FTL travel ('travel' meant in the loosest sense) seems to be possible. Any intellectually rigorous denier would need to explain away Ben Rich's comments above.

I fully agree that he was unlikely to have been talking about movement in space in the conventional sense. He's likely to have meant that there's technology that enables one to reach a distant point faster than light can.

2) The 'ETs vs Aliens' semantics may be important. Non-human, apparently physical beings, seem to exist. I've seen one with my own eyes. Whether it originated from another planet or not, I'm unable to know. But it was absolutely physically real.

If I see a burglar in my house, and have not been asleep, drinking, or taking drugs, that's admissible (and important) testimony in court. If I see a non-human being in my house, that testimony should be treated with exactly the same credence and respect. It's simply telling the truth as a witness.

It's unkind (at best) to ridicule, or appear to ridicule, those extremely profound and life-changing experiences.

3) There do seem to be many (and 'many' may be a gross understatement!) planets out there which could support life as we know it. 'Out there' is an almost unimaginably huge place. :)

To hold that this is the only planet among probable billions that's developed intelligent life is to stretch the Copernican Principle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copernican_principle) to breaking point (in my strong opinion), and increasingly seems to be intellectually indefensible. Most honest scientists these days agree.

So we have the following logic chain:


It's statistically highly probable (maybe even nearly certain) that intelligent life has developed on other planets, somewhere out there.
It seems to be possible to arrive at distant points faster than light can. Besides Ben Rich's statements above, there are multiple statements from other credible 'insiders' to the same effect.
If we've discovered this technology, then other races, thousands or even millions of years more advanced than us, almost certainly have as well.
There's overwhelming circumstantial evidence (thousands of sightings and experiences from reliable, stable witnesses) that non-human beings (and things that seem like craft) exist.
Moreover, there are numerous government documents, attesting to this apparent ET and UFO reality, that those who are experts in the field agree are almost 100% certain to be genuine. Some of them can be viewed here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?89859-The-Avalon-Library&p=1058565&viewfull=1#post1058565).


Based on that logic, I'd contend that any genuinely open-minded and intelligent person would conclude that the answer to the question Do ETs exist? would be almost certainly Yes.

~~~

I'll now leave this discussion! It has all the hallmarks of going nowhere fast (and there's a joke in there somewhere...) apart from presenting the opportunity to share some interesting facts.

[indigopete]

I'm not going to enter into a debate on this subject...

I think you just did :-)


...with someone who seems to have a rigid belief system (of denial)

Indeed, but there’s not much point in replacing a “rigid belief system of denial” with a “rigid belief system of acceptance” based on 100% 3rd party testimony and 0% first hand experience.

Contrary to what you’re alluding to, Bill, testimony that someone got burgled the night before should not necessarily be treated the same as testimony that physical beings carry out interstellar travel. One has mass experiential endorsement, the other doesn’t. One is an unambiguous, well understood phenomenon, the other is highly ambiguous, subjective and poorly understood.


1) FTL travel ('travel' meant in the loosest sense) seems to be possible. Any intellectually rigorous denier would need to explain away Ben Rich's comments above

You surely can’t be serious. What is “intellectually rigerous” about accepting a 2nd hand verbal testimony at face value ?

All Ben Rich has said is “hey there’s this great technology but we can’t show you it and don’t even bother trying to discover it because you’re wasting your time”. There’s nothing there that needs explaining by anyone other than Ben himself.


It seems to be possible to arrive at distant points faster than light can. Besides Ben Rich's statements above, there are multiple statements from other credible 'insiders' to the same effect

I think I already accepted this fact and indeed promoted it.

My only point of contention with the “UFO” narrative is what the mechanism is for “interstellar travel”. I posited that we arrive in biological vehicles, not technological ones. That this mode of travel is used by everyone, all the time - not some elite few who have access to government programmes.

It’s in that context - not that of ‘belief system’ - that I’ve come to the conclusion that some of assumptions associated with the UFO agenda are bogus and in fact serve to deny people an indigenous understanding of their own existence. It also potentially serves as a decoy from appraising the genuine nature of the events so called “abductees” are experiencing. Obviously, as you have pointed out, these are my own opinions and I don’t claim to have a monopoly on the truth, but I think they are reasonable opinions to hold in view of the ambiguous origin of the whole saga.

[Agape]

For clarification , I'd like to add point =6= to what I've posted above yesterday,
as well , with hope it explains something.

6. Any truly advanced intelligence ( such as the ETIs we're discussing here ) who are capable of space travel - and I'm asserting this from my own first hand account , again, not speculating - had to surpass the point in their technological evolution when they eliminated most of 'accidental errors' ( you can't accommodate large numbers of errors if travelling real far , anyway ).
Therefor .. they do not require ( either as biological entities or their technologies ) large number of repetitions, repetitive behaviours and re-feeding .

The reason why we do require and rely on repetitions and repetitive patterns in human world is precisely , our mortality and number of biological 'errors' we contain, display and encounter .

The meaning of so called 'rigorous' human science is based on 'repeated patterns' and experiments for the same fact .
It does not mean that 'anomalies' do not exist , exceptions only seem to 'confirm' - by standing contrary to the repeated patterns , no lab experiment even if proven successful and valid on one side of matter is supported by 100% evidence.
100% evidence does not EXIST on Earth, as natural phenomenon - get used to the fact and get familiar with Heisenberg uncertainty principle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle) ,
from biological perspective , there are no 'two leaves' of a same genus of a plant that would be morphologically identical. There are no twins that ARE completely the same no matter how close they look .
If nature does not like to repeat itself .. advanced intelligent life much less so .

So in terms of 'rigorous human science' we are used to rely TOO MUCH on repetitive patterns .
Ask any human scientist to explain an anomaly ( of any sort ) and the first thing he/she will probably do - reminding himself to be 'the correct person'- is they won't start 'to think' about what the solution could be
but they will search for any other 'documented example' from their memory/history that would help to explain an anomaly .
That process is considered 'rigorous' but ..over the ages CAN go also considerably wrong.

Just because something is 'similar' in its appearance it does not mean it's similar in principle.

Many judicial mistakes were committed basing on similarity of cases where investigative data were overlooked .

In lay terms it's called 'cleaning the thing out of your tables' because it poses extra work .

Now .. of ET encounters and the pattern observed .. from what I do consider for real ,
they do not repeat themselves 'a lot' .

I do consider suggestions such as 'millions people abducted every year' and 'earth invaded by aliens' as grossly exaggerated.
No really advanced civilisation .. but speaking for those I've actually encountered.. is in need of such massive harvest .

While it's difficult to determine number of real cases and exclude numbers of unreal cases that are just similar in nature , because our nature tends to copy 'their nature' and more advanced patterns even if they are typically 'unrealistic' for us ,

from what is observable to most scientists and me alike , those protruding , striking, well defined 'ET encounters' occur over years spans of time and even if they show number of similarities and level of 'progress' going on that suggests to me the ET is attempting for better communication over time ,
respectively to our level of philosophical and technical maturity 'down here' ,

they are still not 'the same' . They are each unique event , in fact .

So that's where the major rift between human scientific dwelling on repetition AND advanced non-human intelligence necessarily occurs and is difficult if not impossible to overcome.
It says .. either you are ready for us.. at the time of the Encounter.. or you're not .

''We can't tell you when can we make it back'' .

It does seem that there will be next and 'better' events .

7. The factor of sentience can not be overstressed enough . The dumbing conviction or a trend of some todays scientists/technical prodigies etc. who believe that AI is the logical 'next step' in biological evolution and therefor,
what will follow on earth and what 'had to follow' in evolution terms elsewhere in Space is artificial life /intel surpassing biological intelligence , form and meaning ..

is grossly one sided and philosophically immature from where I see it . It reflects the fact that technology was missing on this planet for very long and the need to create such supportive technologies , its shadowy side is however naive fascination by everything that 'exhibits artificial intelligence'.

While such a 'beacon' of intelligence and creativity would probably fascinate few millions of geeks worldwide and in 'Sunny Valley' and be 'the right answer' to the 'universal puzzle' ,

I can assure you that there are more aged and more gifted people on this planet , perhaps billions of natural philosophers who ..in their hearts and minds .. have an utmost respect to Life .. not a MACHINE.

There are few billions of people who will 'inherently' disagree with the principle of 'deus ex machina' and will go for any other , crazy explanation of Life if the one explanation of all you can offer them is that YOU-ARE-A-ROBOT.
Robots ( drones ) are far more dangerous to human mentality exactly because their lack of sentience .

A mediocre evolved civilisation will probably 'send probes' to space such as you do ..

but any truly advanced one will want to travel, see in their own eyes and meet you face to face, for the joy of exploration itself ( have you lost it, i ask the armchair educated so called scientists who is 'exploring' his 'experiments' in gloves and protective glasses or better does not because that's his assistants jobs. Yes ... we do have such academics and scientists these days , journalists of the science mags who think 'real smart' and come with better critiques ..because they never been to the real site )
.

So omit the factor of sentience .. and we're duped.

[Justplain]

Hi Agape, so both you and Bill have seen physical beings not from our normal experience. Very impressive. My experience was in a dreamlike state linked to a grey type doing a painful extraction from my knee (discussed in a different thread). I would tend to think that those who have not had such experiences might find it difficult to understand what its like, and that others exist here that are not from here.

As Bill alluded to, I would much rather maintain a viewpoint that allows for all of the probable possibilities than to summarily dismiss them out of hand because they dont fit our pre-defined concepts.

Dogmatic science usually ignores anomalies that defy its rules. A true scientist identifies anomalies as exceptions for which further work is needed to explain.

We are fortunate to have some on this forum who are willing to share anomalous experiences. I know from my own experience that we Earth humans are blessed with a direct connection to spirit that guides us and helps us in our daily living. This connection makes any day a good day. Perhaps thru this connection we can collectively solve the problems we face to be able to join the inter-stellar community where i feel we belong.

[mojo]

all the hallmarks of going nowhere fast

And likely that no statement was going to change the original op opinion. The question was only a premise to start an antagonistic thread and never truly wanted to be answered. But Avalon still responds with their best intentions. It wasnt the first response to oppose a thread either on this subject. Showing the earmarks of a good disinfo agent...

edit: actually there is another possibility one that we humans do when faced with a stressful situation, like post traumatic stress... perhaps trying to justify something that happened.

[Agape]

Hi Agape, so both you and Bill have seen physical beings not from our normal experience. Very impressive. My experience was in a dreamlike state linked to a grey type doing a painful extraction from my knee (discussed in a different thread). I would tend to think that those who have not had such experiences might find it difficult to understand what its like, and that others exist here that are not from here.

As Bill alluded to, I would much rather maintain a viewpoint that allows for all of the probable possibilities than to summarily dismiss them out of hand because they dont fit our pre-defined concepts.

Dogmatic science usually ignores anomalies that defy its rules. A true scientist identifies anomalies as exceptions for which further work is needed to explain.

We are fortunate to have some on this forum who are willing to share anomalous experiences. I know from my own experience that we Earth humans are blessed with a direct connection to spirit that guides us and helps us in our daily living. This connection makes any day a good day. Perhaps thru this connection we can collectively solve the problems we face to be able to join the inter-stellar community where i feel we belong.


Hello Justplain , I know Bill did but it would be his choice to quote and comment on his own experiences , not mine ..

where I'm concerned , I am losing overview because I don't like to repeat myself all the time but if you're 'missing the link' of someones thoughts and statements the easiest way to find about them is clicking on the 'posts number' under their avatar and posting history of that person will probably guide you through their original threads and topics ,
from there you'll figure out what are their interests and involution to the subject as long as that's been mentioned on the forum ( of course ).
I am taking advantage of this small feature rarely but it serves me as a simplified 'interest test' where finding about my own information goes from others.
People who don't have even this much intuition or talent to operate simple forum software can't , in my best opinion qualify as 'researcher' of anything .

Now that I told you ..

I'll have to repeat myself again that I do maintain very strict criteria to reality , its structure and that includes my own encounters and others.
I've likewise worked for years as meditation and philosophy teacher and did plenty of counselling , among else , so I don't refuse or deny the fact that people ( we all ) have plenty of mostly , subjective , experiences.

This isn't what I've reported though neither the reason for reporting a sighting or an encounter . I'm sure that Bill would agree with me on that or that he would not be bothered to report his 'visitation' and 'abduction' unless he met with likeminded individuals.
Doing so without further data is precisely like asking for ridicule in most of our secular society .

Likewise , I've had small experiences with ETs during my life that I rarely mention or as above, unless out of interest .

The only reason I have reported Event that lasted 4 hours ( of human time ) in Bodhgaya is because the amount of data it contained .
I will never argue about this with people who are convinced of their own truth because it's not worth the argument and ..
to this day , I'd still need even one scientist who would be not only open minded and non aggressive but actually, eager to know ,
in order to 'translate' most of that information to 'human language' , especially 'human scientific language' .
What's been written upon it ( vis the Bodhgaya ET Event Report ) are barebones . You have to understand these are barebones .
And the reason , full reason for why such data are not intended to be your 'comic book' or another science-fiction piece of literature , is because it happened ,
and consists of material good enough for 5 PhDs that i'm not able to process alone, ever .
Do I feel like a fool here ? Completely . You don't have to doubt that for a moment.

I did not have 'another experience' and i know how is to have one so do others.

But the definitions there , strictly differ on amount of data obtained .


...


:pray:

[Agape]

all the hallmarks of going nowhere fast

And likely that no statement was going to change the original op opinion. The question was only a premise to start an antagonistic thread and never truly wanted to be answered. But Avalon still responds with their best intentions. It wasnt the first response to oppose a thread either on this subject. Showing the earmarks of a good disinfo agent...

edit: actually there is another possibility one that we humans do when faced with a stressful situation, like post traumatic stress... perhaps trying to justify something that happened.


Open minded skepticism is fine with me as long as those people have enough intelligence to reflect subjectivity of their own opinion, stop before the 'debunking line' and simply, do not presume that people 'with experiences' are waiting for someone to explain it to them.
Truly, for those who have had 'experiences' , it's their choice and responsibility to educate themselves , do the mind exploration on their own - no one in the whole world is going to do that for you - and then decide .

I find easier sometimes to speak to open minded skeptics - as long as they are thinking creatures wishing to learn - and not just programmed thinking machines

than talking to 'learned believers' who presume that by some mysterious means that excludes any solid data they've just arrived at the greatest super-theory of everything and can't see or admit where their theoretical holes are .
Every science oriented individual knows where are his/her 'holes' and 'weaknesses' and presents them together with the other 'evidence' so that in result he/she can get rid of those holes in your theory.

What the conspiracy and experiencer movement have been seen doing for years now is covering logical discrepancies , straight contradictions and errors in personal testimonies so in result,
no scientist want to have anything to do with such level of reporting .

For top notch physicist , say Michio Kaku , ET life or interstellar problem truly are the slightest theoretical problem to get over with ,
but where you present them with many fantastic tales at the same time , to someone accustomed to follow rules of logic, they'll find the mistake and miscalculation you even do not notice and is clear to them that the story does not fit .

How ? Not by charms, not by gender, nationality, intuition or beauty . Simply, following logic and questioning the witness .

:highfive:

[Peace of Mind]

Hmmm…I’ve seem to have missed out on some interesting things. But I’m most intrigued with the many statements giving about this supposed “Abundance of evidence”.

I’ve read, listen to, scanned over, tons of testimonies/videos/and pictures… but I’ve found none of them to have anything displaying actual aliens from other planets/star systems.

Can those that have access to all of this “undeniable” proof please share (link) it with me? I’m beyond curious, extremely intrigued to learn what exactly it is giving people these beliefs.

I’ve worn many hats while working in the entertainment industry. Producer, assistant Director, Script writer, Animator, Editor, Promoter, etc… I’ve mentioned this several times because I’m in contact with many celebrities that are willing to use their positions to help expose these “So called” phenomenon’s.

Many times I’ve stated how my colleagues and I are aware of media manipulation (first hand) and wish to use our positons to expose truths and lies. Some of you may have notice over the last few years that there is a rise in movies that feature some of the ideologies discuss in this forum. Now think about that for a moment…
What I’m witnessing is a cipher of programming. Tel-lie-vision is an information resource tool…mainly to gain attention to a particular subject or to condition an idea into popularity.

We can all help each other by exercising in transparency. When information deemed “highly important” is spread…there should be “attachments” of verifiability. Without such data/facts…how can important information get handled in a responsible manner?

What makes all the Alien Hype losses its credibility… is not the skeptic…but the lack of substance that supports the claim. Also, whenever this subject gets to a point of heated discourse…it’s often turned into a show of immaturity from those that can’t clarified their own beliefs, resulting to elitism and exclusion banter. I’m still surprised that whenever I’ve asked people for their proof… I’m always re-directed to someone else testimony/video. Remind me on how this is YOUR proof?

If there was actual proof of aliens…these sought of topics wouldn’t exist. Those holding beliefs only have faith and tales of intrigue form others, they have nothing else to show.…they are just used to the ideas because of years of conditioning, and it doesn’t help that most elders are comfortably stuck in their ways and would rather push a “uncertainty” instead of further investigating the obvious flaws. These same people past on these unconfirmed ideologies to the young and expect them to respect, obey without question. It’s no wonder to me why the youth rebel. Most of the elders consistently show their inconsistencies, their lack of responsibility, lack of commitments and guidance to the actual truth…. They are mostly found in a position of comfort forever waiting for their beliefs to reveal themselves. A sad sight to say the least.

We need a world where every “Shouted” truth is readily experienced. Telling someone there is an alien is not like telling someone there’s a loaf of bread in the store. I can easily go to that store to verify the loaf of bread’s past, present, and future existence.

I also find it baffling that people are so eager to believe in alien contact/abductions instead of the more logical ideas that these instances could very well be the work of secret government operations. This thought seems to always go unnoticed, ignored…look down upon, but why? Hmmm…

What really makes this all seem like a setup is the fact that it makes all of its believers sit by idle watching the skies… instead of reaching for it. They will sit, and sit and sit… only moving to fight any rationale thoughts threatening their heavily ingrained beliefs. Yet still failing to offer anything that matters…and failing to alleviate the tension growing around the topic.

So why are people getting offended when they know full well that they are not even presenting any real proof? Why do they not see how their hearsay and probabilities are easily exposed to inconsistencies and that alternative thinking/reasoning is better explaining their experience. I'm now coming to the realization that people are just trained to believe and will fight for that belief no matter the logic that is shown to them. A good example of why the world is in a state of confusion, and chaos. We are so easily divided by every little thing... when everything can be so so simple. hmmm...

Peace

[Agape]

Hmmm…I’ve seem to have missed out on some interesting things. But I’m most intrigued with the many statements giving about this supposed “Abundance of evidence”.

I’ve read, listen to, scanned over, tons of testimonies/videos/and pictures… but I’ve found none of them to have anything displaying actual aliens from other planets/star systems.

Can those that have access to all of this “undeniable” proof please share (link) it with me? I’m beyond curious, extremely intrigued to learn what exactly it is giving people these beliefs.

I’ve worn many hats while working in the entertainment industry. Producer, assistant Director, Script writer, Animator, Editor, Promoter, etc… I’ve mentioned this several times because I’m in contact with many celebrities that are willing to use their positions to help expose these “So called” phenomenon’s.

Many times I’ve stated how my colleagues and I are aware of media manipulation (first hand) and wish to use our positons to expose truths and lies. Some of you may have notice over the last few years that there is a rise in movies that feature some of the ideologies discuss in this forum. Now think about that for a moment…
What I’m witnessing is a cipher of programming. Tel-lie-vision is an information resource tool…mainly to gain attention to a particular subject or to condition an idea into popularity.

We can all help each other by exercising in transparency. When information deemed “highly important” is spread…there should be “attachments” of verifiability. Without such data/facts…how can important information get handled in a responsible manner?

What makes all the Alien Hype losses its credibility… is not the skeptic…but the lack of substance that supports the claim. Also, whenever this subject gets to a point of heated discourse…it’s often turned into a show of immaturity from those that can’t clarified their own beliefs, resulting to elitism and exclusion banter. I’m still surprised that whenever I’ve asked people for their proof… I’m always re-directed to someone else testimony/video. Remind me on how this is YOUR proof?

If there was actual proof of aliens…these sought of topics wouldn’t exist. Those holding beliefs only have faith and tales of intrigue form others, they have nothing else to show.…they are just used to the ideas because of years of conditioning, and it doesn’t help that most elders are comfortably stuck in their ways and would rather push a “uncertainty” instead of further investigating the obvious flaws. These same people past on these unconfirmed ideologies to the young and expect them to respect, obey without question. It’s no wonder to me why the youth rebel. Most of the elders consistently show their inconsistencies, their lack of responsibility, lack of commitments and guidance to the actual truth…. They are mostly found in a position of comfort forever waiting for their beliefs to reveal themselves. A sad sight to say the least.

We need a world where every “Shouted” truth is readily experienced. Telling someone there is an alien is not like telling someone there’s a loaf of bread in the store. I can easily go to that store to verify the loaf of bread’s past, present, and future existence.

I also find it baffling that people are so eager to believe in alien contact/abductions instead of the more logical ideas that these instances could very well be the work of secret government operations. This thought seems to always go unnoticed, ignored…look down upon, but why? Hmmm…

What really makes this all seem like a setup is the fact that it makes all of its believers sit by idle watching the skies… instead of reaching for it. They will sit, and sit and sit… only moving to fight any rationale thoughts threatening their heavily ingrained beliefs. Yet still failing to offer anything that matters…and failing to alleviate the tension growing around the topic.

So why are people getting offended when they know full well that they are not even presenting any real proof? Why do they not see how their hearsay and probabilities are easily exposed to inconsistencies and that alternative thinking/reasoning is better explaining their experience. I'm now coming to the realization that people are just trained to believe and will fight for that belief no matter the logic that is shown to them. A good example of why the world is in a state of confusion, and chaos. We are so easily divided by every little thing... when everything can be so so simple. hmmm...

Peace



I agree with you , blatantly and openly . But - and all i can suggest - bring me a team of curious scientists /researchers who would be actually open to investigate things ,
including your 'condemned witness' when/after encounter happens .

A one or two at least who would be genuinely interested in finding such evidence and NOT a priori , programmed debunkers .

Send them here and we can talk . Don't send shamans , media producers , exorcists and those who resemble who you just quoted , people who think we have an 'abundance of evidence' because it's 'all on the web'.

Over the years , not even one showed up who would fit into that category and would have the interest and determination to 'uncover such evidence'.

If you ask why , the reasons are found in your article .. they feel uniformly helpless against the undiscerned mass of 'claimants' of ET contact/abductions and allegations of government conspiracies that together blend to a myth.
Left to researchers of mythology to investigate ..


:star:

[boardinguy10]

Excellent thread btw. Threads like these cause us to rethink our assumptions and beliefs. John Keel and Jacques Vallee have demonstrated with their respective body of research that the ET hypothesis is most likely interdimensional. Now I'm inclined to agree especially in light of the fact that as John Keel has shown, the "phenomena" changes itself to our expectations. 100 years ago ET paraded around in blimps and did things that to us today seem ridiculous but nonetheless made an impression on the people that interacted with them.

During the Sci/Fi revolution of 40-60's ET appeared as UFO's. (Does anyone else find it hard to believe that a "vehicle" of advance tech could be brought down by radar)

There is no denying others personal experience, or the multitude of data that shows contact and abductions are occurring. I'm wondering if it's possible that the whole ET is a smokesreen for something else. According to Robert Duncan and others that discuss the idea that we've had the technology for remote EEG heterodyning of cloning brainwaves at a distance since the 50's or 60's(can't remember exactly)thus making it possible(if true) to make any one think anything. Here's the catch though, ET has been appearing for an extremely long time, but the key seems to be how their appearance is tailored to our expectations, as John Keel pointed out.

So, what do we have here?

ET/Aliens from space visiting and abducting and experimenting and passing on knowledge, or Interdimensional beings masquerading as ET to keep us always looking "out there". Or TPTB with advanced tech making us think that ET is doing everything, and if so where did they get the tech in the first place?

[David Ansible]

excellent post from boardingguy. you sum up the issue well. It is definitely perplexing. I tend to the smokescreen
theory, but recognize its limitations as well. It simply doesn't cover everything. For example,
older phenomena (unless there is a human group that has had very advanced technology for
a very long time).

What R. Duncan talks about is real. This I know from very direct personal
experience. It is "realer" than people who haven't experienced it will understand (not their
fault). What I mean is, it would be very difficult if not impossible to imagine what some things are really like,
from the inside. I couldn't have done it....

To some, EEG heterodyning etc. is just theory. To others, it is just fact (though I suppose one could still
debate about exactly who is doing it and the exact nature of the technologies). One can still make those arguments.
The other stuff, aliens and so on, is interesting to me but still, for me, just rumors and anecdotes. I have no direct
knowledge.

Mind influencing technology, including brain to brain / supercomputer to brain communication technology, is much more
powerful and potentially deceiving than people realize. The uninitiated just have no idea. I do not say this from a pompous
perspective. Not at all. Some things just have to be experienced for you to really and truly know.

Anyway, it's important not to be a cult of alien believers. In my opinion the OP made several good points and it is good
to have a skeptical but open minded approach to things.

[Sunny-side-up]

Your entering the debate reply Bill was very well put, thanks for it and I totally agree.

One thing related to this Op I just thought about and hadn't done so before relates to our own Secrete technology (Maybe breakaway) is that:

The beings and entities we see here maybe secrete to their own worlds and species! They might not be the norm on their planets and the general populations of such planets might be in the dark just like us o.0

They are out-there, they are here, they and us are all here and real as real can be in this conundrum of life.

[Joe Akulis]

Maybe we're categorizing ETs into a box, and the way we're defining them is affecting our ability to approach the question of whether or not they exist.

So let's take one step back and think about what consciousness is.

How many people would agree that there is more than one "dimension" to this universe? Meaning, there's more to reality than just this physical aspect. And probably when we die, if you believe that your spirit or consciousness continues in some other non-physical form, then it's probably in one of those other dimensions at that point.

There's a lot of good material available--some of it mentioned in Bill's "library" post, and some of it elsewhere--that delves into the subject of consciousness. Stuff like the "Seth material" does a good job of giving the impression that it's possible we exist consciously in all of the various dimensions at the same time. And that our earthly life here is an aspect of our non-physical vitality choosing to participate in a physical experience here on Earth, via the "human" envelope.

If any of this sounds like it could be somewhat true, and the more I learn the more I'm leaning this way, then what really is an ET?

Maybe if we stop thinking of them as another product of biological evolution on some other planet millions of light years away that became sentient half a million years ago, and tried thinking of ETs as other non-physical energetic personalities who chose to participate in a physical experience in some other species, we could expand the discussion into more interesting territory.

With that in mind as a new definition of ETs then, I would ask, are you any different that any other ET?

Even better: How do you know your non-physical vitality/soul/higher self hasn't chosen to check out one of those other species in a previous life already?

Does the spirit of a dolphin live on after it dies? If you think that's possible, then maybe they fall into the same category now. How do you know you yourself haven't tried out what it's like to be a dolphin already?

I guess to go there you first have to be open to the possibility that your soul existed before you were conceived in your mother's womb. And for a lot of the deniers, I think that's the biggest hurdle to get over before any of this ET stuff can awaken your sense of wonder.

Pull up some books from the Avalon Library and see if they can help you get over that hurdle.

Much love to all on this thread.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

It’s in that context - not that of ‘belief system’ - that I’ve come to the conclusion that some of assumptions associated with the UFO agenda are bogus and in fact serve to deny people an indigenous understanding of their own existence...

I don't blame you at all for having doubts. However, if I had never had a UFO/ET experience, I think I would still believe in the phenomenon to some extent. It's such an implausible stretch, based on the literally thousands of case histories, to not believe in their existence. But experiencing the reality for yourself really is the clincher.



Can those that have access to all of this “undeniable” proof please share (link) it with me? I'm beyond curious, extremely intrigued to learn what exactly it is giving people these beliefs...

I have experienced extra-terrestrial phenomenon with my own eyes. Physical, tangible, right-in-front-of-me REAL. Beings that are not of this world. The inside and outside of crafts that are not of this world. It really IS real.

It's also incredible, mind-blowing, and life-changing - I would almost say life-shattering to some extent, because when this first unravelled for me in the 80's and 90's it totally shattered my psyche. The human psyche is a pretty flimsy machine. It's not naturally wired to easily cope and absorb the reality of...another reality. That's the only way I can put it!

It can literally shatter the foundation of your life, and everything in it. It took me years to understand what was happening. And it took me years to come to terms with it. Of course I still haven't got it all figured out. But the experiences NEVER leave you. Memories crop up literally every single day: of SEEING and experiencing these extraordinary things - can you imagine the contrast and dichotomy of this reality against the backdrop of my daily (mundane) life? I can only say once more, it is REAL, and it's incredible to KNOW that it's real, but it's as equally frustrating to know you cannot share this reality, except in (empty) words.

It's like I'm saying I climbed Everest - an incredible feat, yet unfortunately I have no photographs to prove I did it, no evidence for having done so. But I know you're saying to yourself that Everest is still ten times or a thousand times more likely to have happened to me than seeing, touching, and interacting with alien beings, right? You are right. But whatever the case you either believe it happened to me, or you don't.

I understood where you're coming from, and I understand your doubts. I WISH I could give you proof, I wish I could give you the memory and knowledge of my own experience - or that of MANY others. I wish you could SEE what I've seen. This would be your undeniable proof. I wish I could do that, but I can't. All I've got are words. You either believe them, or you do not.

[scanner]

All one has to do , is look at you his-tory . Paintings with ETV's on them , not UFO's . We were either very intelligent to build places like , Gobekli Tepe . Strange animals on the side of pillars of stone , not known today . Said to be 12000 years old . The Pyramids , engineers say they could not build them today , with all the technology they have at their disposal and many more structures like them . Cave paintings ,depicting astronauts and some very similar to greys . And , we're actually told from a very early age we are the image of our creator, whom itself is an alien (imo). Whatever you believe , there is no denying we ether lost our ability to make these structures or , someone else built them , I plum for the latter .

There are many early accounts , like Ezekiel's wheel . Probably one of the very early abductions , eye witness account .

Now as I looked at the living beings, behold, there was one wheel on the earth beside the living beings, for each of the four of them. 16The appearance of the wheels and their workmanship was like sparkling beryl, and all four of them had the same form, their appearance and workmanship being as if one wheel were within another. 17Whenever they moved, they moved in any of their four directions without turning as they moved .

This is just a very small snapshot , of a huge phenomena and yes ET's and EDB's exist .

[Bill Ryan]

.
This short, recent video, of Richard Dolan discussing the 'ETH' (Extraterrestrial Hypothesis) is — as can be expected — of the very highest quality. I'm tempted to make a joke and say, well, we should just close this thread, and all watch the video instead. :)

It's short of 17 minutes long, but presents, intelligently and lucidly, every possible angle on everything that's been discussed in this thread. Highly recommended. There's not a single word (or concept) in there that I'd disagree with.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB-gQDAos_A

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Richard Dolan really is a fine speaker. Exhibit 'B' then, could be his excellent speech at the Citizens Hearing on Disclosure. Anyone still doubting the reality of ETs or UFOs could do no better than spend an afternoon listening to these testimonies.

iROkeC3lmVA

[Agape]

It's short of 17 minutes long, but presents, intelligently and lucidly, every possible angle on everything that's been discussed in this thread. Highly recommended. There's not a single word (or concept) in there that I'd disagree with.



But Bill, no matter how advanced Rich Dolan sounds to you and yours , do you expect ANSWERS where you believe that he or you have '' every possible angle on everything'' ?
It is informative, good summary for people who are new to the ''ET Hypothesis'' and conjures with the 'objectivity strand' people need to be vaccinated with ,
to survive the rest of 'ET Exposure' ,
forgive my complicated wording ..

but it's also slightly discouraging if you believe that such understanding represents the 'peak of knowledge' and no one else knows better .

In gist , in case of interacting with the real 'ET strain' ( trying to minimise ) your best assumptions and hypothesis likely DO fall than otherwise and who are you to say no one here carries the information within them .

Do you only expect QUESTIONS that you or Rich could answer - because that's keeping the community and public opinion safe, and in check .
And no more 'advanced answers' .. or , even a clarity , but ..

please think of 'future generations' .

In the 'bad Hollywood movies' not to speak about good ones, ET intelligence/visitors usually get the chance to make friends with humans .
In so called 'quality science fiction' movies of the 50s, 60s, 70s ... and so forth , ET intelligence can seldom make a good sense of humans as they are - and vice versa ( vis Solaris , AC Clark 2001 Space Odyssey or the Europa Report ) .
Solaris IS a quality movie but I can't say I'd like it , from deep within .

I liked ET or the Close Encounters much better . Because there's a happyend, true but also , they make sense .. to both worlds .



:Angel:


Do you allow any ET to your 'experience' is one good question . Because all these people you take refuge in and their judgements are still, very human.


And me thinks it's futile , from my ET perspective , trying to talk to humans who really think they know everything , especially everything about ETs.

[Agape]

It's like I'm saying I climbed Everest - an incredible feat, yet unfortunately I have no photographs to prove I did it, no evidence for having done so. But I know you're saying to yourself that Everest is still ten times or a thousand times more likely to have happened to me than seeing, touching, and interacting with alien beings, right? You are right. But whatever the case you either believe it happened to me, or you don't.

I understood where you're coming from, and I understand your doubts. I WISH I could give you proof, I wish I could give you the memory and knowledge of my own experience - or that of MANY others. I wish you could SEE what I've seen. This would be your undeniable proof. I wish I could do that, but I can't. All I've got are words. You either believe them, or you do not.


Thanks for the heart talk Star Mariner , sums the 'human experience' pretty well for me too , completely true .

Most humans are likely to believe about anything else being the 'real explanation' than the one option of thousands ( or millions ) of 'meeting the ET'.
It's strange ..about humans and observable fact that many long-term earthlings are inherently xenophobic and when pushed to think 'out of the box' ,
philosophically, spiritually or scientifically .. more than few find themselves empty of imagination and fearing dissolution of their personal integrity ,
as if the cosmic intelligence and its structure began and ended with them .

The 'ET awareness' in humans hardly started century or two ago .. it's been here much much earlier and essentially, since the beginning of human race ,
so were periodical encounters .

Or is it the need-for-immediate-proof , the g'me , give me or I forsake you that is preventing us from sharing .

There's something that travels faster than light in Space , not talking of 'vacuum' :) and that is - information. Information is immaterial in nature the way the 'spin of particle' is to its 'mass' .
With technologies advanced enough all we could be receiving is 'intelligence imprint' of civilisation faraway in Space that docks to the most sensitive apparatus of our biological intelligence instead the radios, telescopes and TVs.
In my experience though , we've been 'located' from much closer here .. and what happens next ..
is ET ( not ) waiting for the correct answer ?

The original, never thought of answer that PROVES there's a race of advanced biological entities somewhere in our direction and not a race of primitives or even drones ..?


UTW908ljUt8

[Peace of Mind]

hmm...

I’m not entirely sure if I made my point clear enough. So I’ll attempt to make this as blunt as respectfully possible. I see the whole alien subject as a clever distraction for several reasons.

1. Almost every person with a testimony/ video/ picture/ documentation has always claimed their evidence to be real, but when challenged…their supposed facts turn into personal experiences. Yet, these same people expect others without ‘Said” experiences to indulge in discussions on that very subject. However, as soon as the topic shows signs of logical alternative thinking (for these claims) … the conversation starts showing signs of sensitivity issues instead of sensitive issues getting exposed. That’s always a red flag in my book, and this will always compel me to dig further, ask the tougher questions.

2. The subject about aliens has shown/provided us absolutely nothing…other than being one of the world’s biggest distraction. WHY?? An why is there so much attention given to this mysterious, imaginary, undisclosed, never seen before beings…when the existence of humanity lies in peril? When these points are repeatedly ignored…suspicion can only set in due to these unresolved irresponsible presentations. Due diligence; Respect earns Respect!

3. The blatant/total disregard of the idea that actual humans within our governments are behind all of these alien abductions and encounters. We had great technology in pass civilizations because we are unlimited thinkers (within and outside of the box). Many of the "alien believers" just don’t want to consider the logical ideas of being victims to ourselves…even though there’s plenty of evidence in the past and present showing our propensity to manipulate each others mindset/lives for personal gains. So if there is nothing to truly gain and nothing of urgency within the alien hype…why is this such a distraction at the times when our focus is most needed? Hmmm…..

4. All the alien hype could be a plan to disguise human divinity/potential. You see this potential drawn on ancient walls, some people today have unexplained natural abililites as certain hieroglyphics suggests...but to an disempowered being...or being seeking to hide such probability...they will say its from another world...A world they have no way of experiencing, but somehow KNOW. hmm...

If humans believe that there are outer world beings more advance than them…they will lose confidence, gain fear, become idled/distracted, uninspired, confused, etc…

Also, the alien phenomenon seems to be a great way to further gain control over the masses. This can control the populace mentals, physicality, financials, and emotional states of being. It's the ultimate trap. Yet no one here wants to consider that, they wont even expand on that rational possibility, rather go straight for the cosmos alien entity theme…why? hmmm..

5. And most of all…people are making tons of money from promoting “truths” that they can’t even provide to their customers. How can you not see how this practice is not being a part of the problem? Especially when you say…
“it’s my experience”, “there’s plenty of evidence out there” (even when this same evidence is shown to be inconclusive and highly subjective)?

How can you not see the flaws in stating a "truth" when you’re resulting to defining your truth by directing skeptics to someone else’s definition/testimony of YOUR truth?

You are not providing anything…you're just spreading someone else’s propaganda.To not see this from a place of healthy perception...well, that can also be seen as disrespectful to those you wish to educate on the “UNKNOWN”.

If you can’t be creative/ thorough enough in your “offerings” to important matters in our lives… it’s not going to help matters by being at odds with those that have the courage and commitments to peeling back all the layers. If there is nothing to hide…there should be nothing to fear, or get upset about. The truth will always speak for itself…you don’t have to defend it…just present it. It has always been this way.

That said… I have no problem considering most things…it’s just that my “To Be Considered” bin is starting to overflow and I may need some assistance in handling it properly. So please Help me Help you… so we can Help us…

Peace

[Gerald Paris]

hmm...

I’m not entirely sure if I made my point clear enough. So I’ll attempt to make this as blunt as respectfully possible. I see the whole alien subject as a clever distraction for several reasons.

1. Almost every person with a testimony/ video/ picture/ documentation has always claimed their evidence to be real, but when challenged…their supposed facts turn into personal experiences. Yet, these same people expect others without ‘Said” experiences to indulge in discussions on that very subject. However, as soon as the topic shows signs of logical alternative thinking (for these claims) … the conversation starts showing signs of sensitivity issues instead of sensitive issues getting exposed. That’s always a red flag in my book, and this will always compel me to dig further, ask the tougher questions.

2. The subject about aliens has shown/provided us absolutely nothing…other than being one of the world’s biggest distraction. WHY?? An why is there so much attention given to this mysterious, imaginary, undisclosed, never seen before beings…when the existence of humanity lies in peril? When these points are repeatedly ignored…suspicion can only set in due to these unresolved irresponsible presentations. Due diligence; Respect earns Respect!

3. The blatant/total disregard of the idea that actual humans within our governments are behind all of these alien abductions and encounters. We had great technology in pass civilizations because we are unlimited thinkers (within and outside of the box). Many of the "alien believers" just don’t want to consider the logical ideas of being victims to ourselves…even though there’s plenty of evidence in the past and present showing our propensity to manipulate each others mindset/lives for personal gains. So if there is nothing to truly gain and nothing of urgency within the alien hype…why is this such a distraction at the times when our focus is most needed? Hmmm…..

4. All the alien hype could be a plan to disguise human divinity/potential. You see this potential drawn on ancient walls, some people today have unexplained natural abililites as certain hieroglyphics suggests...but to an disempowered being...or being seeking to hide such probability...they will say its from another world...A world they have no way of experiencing, but somehow KNOW. hmm...

If humans believe that there are outer world beings more advance than them…they will lose confidence, gain fear, become idled/distracted, uninspired, confused, etc…

Also, the alien phenomenon seems to be a great way to further gain control over the masses. This can control the populace mentals, physicality, financials, and emotional states of being. It's the ultimate trap. Yet no one here wants to consider that, they wont even expand on that rational possibility, rather go straight for the cosmos alien entity theme…why? hmmm..

5. And most of all…people are making tons of money from promoting “truths” that they can’t even provide to their customers. How can you not see how this practice is not being a part of the problem? Especially when you say…
“it’s my experience”, “there’s plenty of evidence out there” (even when this same evidence is shown to be inconclusive and highly subjective)?

How can you not see the flaws in stating a "truth" when you’re resulting to defining your truth by directing skeptics to someone else’s definition/testimony of YOUR truth?

You are not providing anything…you're just spreading someone else’s propaganda.To not see this from a place of healthy perception...well, that can also be seen as disrespectful to those you wish to educate on the “UNKNOWN”.

If you can’t be creative/ thorough enough in your “offerings” to important matters in our lives… it’s not going to help matters by being at odds with those that have the courage and commitments to peeling back all the layers. If there is nothing to hide…there should be nothing to fear, or get upset about. The truth will always speak for itself…you don’t have to defend it…just present it. It has always been this way.

That said… I have no problem considering most things…it’s just that my “To Be Considered” bin is starting to overflow and I may need some assistance in handling it properly. So please Help me Help you… so we can Help us…

Peace

Amazing. Thank you for adding this to the conversation.

and to use a quote found in this conversation, in regards to my feeling on your addition



.

It's short of 17 minutes long, but presents, intelligently and lucidly, every possible angle on everything that's been discussed in this thread. Highly recommended. There's not a single word (or concept) in there that I'd disagree with.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8mKXD-eWL8

[Agape]

All you can receive ..or not .. is an information here, whether it's visual, tactile or auditory or combination of all but an information that connects , docks to the particular set of neuroreceptors and your own information patterns ..

it's upon you to make smart use of all that information , or not ..

in fact it's what is happening everywhere around us , great boost of technical creativity and flourishing human potential , in all possible directions , upwards and downwards .

There's an 'evolution' of human potential happening at all times and , 'devolution' as well , in many of our biological aspects we are but receding to oblivion as a race ..

The 'hype' is about people recalling their origins in Space :)

In times long ago it was only the chosen few ..

now , a mass event is happening but it's probably all the same stuff .


People do make lots of flowery rhetorics but there are few of them with any real knowledge of more subtle truth .

At the end of the 'alien hypothesis' may well be a tiny singular ET AI in size of a lady-bird responsible for the rest and we will never find out .

Or it was all in your grandma :) The moment she lifted you from cold night pod after hours and you suffered existential shock.
It may have started right there .

But how possibly did the other kids make it to ordinary human world devoid of advanced strangers ?


What's my 'existential fault' for being who I am . That's not a test . I've got my questions answered in encounter lasting hours of human time .


How does it connect ? This is not 'me' , or 'you' , this is but an 'internet message' . Mirror mirror .


Peace to you :angel:

[mojo]

Its easy to see a different view on the subject of "Do ET's exist?" Some say yes and others no. Did anyone's mind get changed here? Probably not....At least the mainstream attitude has changed on the subject. It's agreed that a larger percent believe the existence of alien life. For some members like Bill mentioned earlier, are not going to change. Speaking as one having being witness to them it doesn't matter about convincing others. I got to see....

Accounts throughout history, folklore and drawings have shown something about them.

[araucaria]

.
This short, recent video, of Richard Dolan discussing the 'ETH' (Extraterrestrial Hypothesis) is — as can be expected — of the very highest quality. I'm tempted to make a joke and say, well, we should just close this thread, and all watch the video instead. :)

It's short of 17 minutes long, but presents, intelligently and lucidly, every possible angle on everything that's been discussed in this thread. Highly recommended. There's not a single word (or concept) in there that I'd disagree with.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB-gQDAos_A
This more philosophical than historical talk from Richard Dolan clearly shows how ufology fits in with the broader spectrum of human speculation. ‘ET craft’ may well be real, but at the same time they are merely a placeholder for the more general concept of the unidentified and its role in human endeavour: you might call it uology. My own background in literature turns up the same idea. See this post: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?84692-Proof-of-time-travel-by-Jane-Tripp&p=1014637&viewfull=1#post1014637
This is not just human endeavour in fact, as Dolan mentions dogs and fish too. (See this post: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?85752-Helen-They-ve-been-around-for-thousands-of-years&p=1006734&viewfull=1#post1006734 ) Talking of animals, at the age of just two months, my daughter’s new kitten was intrigued at water emerging from a tap/faucet and downright puzzlement on seeing it disappear down the plughole. However, this was only spare time water: the water in its bowl was drunk with no questions asked! The issue is how the two situations relate: once you are adequately fed and watered you can start asking questions about things that previously passed you by. The choice for those that reach that point (many of course do not) is whether to carry on or to turn back. What happens if you do carry on is that you start experiencing quantum leaps, first in the scientific sense of tiny jumps, and maybe at some stage in the ordinary sense of a huge leap into a whole new dimension.

For example, we know that some fish can fly: they’re called flying fish :) Mostly they land back in the water; however, when they land on a boat they tend to get eaten, but they may also land on a desert island, where some may get to evolve into amphibians, as the fossil record suggests some of their ancestors did. You evolve from apparent closed system to apparent closed system – fish ponds, dogs in libraries, humans on prison planets, it’s all the same – until the idea emerges that on a grander scale the system is actually open. When that stage is reached, an enquiring mind can explore these various subsystems without being or feeling cramped, and sometimes more importantly, without feeling totally insecure in this bigger, largely unknown environment. It can’t have been easy for the first land-based fishes literally to get a foothold, but it is as natural as an individual being born and leaving the protective closed environment of the womb. The individuals involved didn’t actually evolve at all: while the species was evolving, these individual fish had to hit the ground running, and survive as the fish they were on the dry ground they landed upon. This is the grim reality of the DIY universe: there may be perfect fins out there, and perfect legs, but the task ahead means walking on fins, breathing air directly through gills etc etc: not for the faint-hearted. It makes no sense, but you only have to try it to see that it works.

Hence the actual fact or not of extraterrestrial beings and the details thereof are totally secondary to their positioning at the interface of our present world with another, where you can fall off the edge into the other via an intermediate vesica piscis-type no man’s land, neither here nor there, where paranormal interference takes place. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesica_piscis When ufology is placed within this broader perspective, the issue is no longer about ufologists obtaining disclosure for their findings, but in their discovering that... they are not alone: others are discovering other similar tears in the fabric of reality, whether it is someone like myself watching a piece of writing morph into something else materialist or a neurosurgeon dealing with NDErs. Or disabled people pulling off the craziest exploits in relation to their handicap. Or, more generally, huge numbers discovering that the old ways of doing things are fast becoming totally inoperative, and getting on with their lives regardless.

This is why I suggest the issue is not about sharing the content of ufology per se as about sharing the principle behind ufology: what I am calling uology. The problem with ufology, and for any single field for that matter, is its authoritarian tendency to fill in any gaps as a one-size-fits-all big picture. This is why we can legitimately suspect something is wrong with the disclosure movement for example: a limited hang-out as another form of enslavement. And it is why it will never gain traction with many people, namely those are working precisely in the gaps that are getting filled in. The advantage of uology on the other hand is that it places on a single platform people working in similar ways in totally different fields, people for example who might be the first to laugh at the tinfoil hat brigade and yet be working to assimilate similar huge anomalies in their own fields of research: the sort of stuff that has Buddhist monks talking to scientists etc. Hence the slogan ‘We are not alone’ applies first and foremost internally to the human race, because we are all growing in so many different ways and directions that it seems like the world is being invaded by aliens, when we are more likely just dealing with fellow humans who are by now unrecognizable in the new medium or dimension we are entering. Dogs in the library reading the books :)

Edit: For the removal of any doubt, the above is in no way a criticism of Richard Dolan: just the opposite in fact.

[Wind]

I'm quite amazed that a question like this is asked here, of all places! No offense meant. Isn't this mostly an UFO/conspiracy website after all? I know that the so called "normal" humans might have varying opinions about ET's (mostly disbelief and disinterest!), but even many of them do believe that intelligent life surely exists somewhere out there. Way, way more intelligent than us. Can we even be really called intelligent? Perhaps that, but certainly not wise. I think we have not only been visited since the beginning of mankind, but also have been created by some races. Many of the God deities of the past may in fact have been ET's, because they literally seemed godlike compared to humans. Some more benevolent than others, others wished to educate where others wanted to enslave. Such is the case with humans too. Dualistic universe and all that jazz.

Also I know that we have been visited many times and even quite recently, that's a fact. I have not had any major UFO encounters, but I have seen objects on the sky which possibly could not have been anything manmade. That being said, I do believe that there are also interdimensional travellers and there are spiritual phenomenons. There is much more than meets the eye and especially material scientists have a hard time admitting that, or maybe they just don't care. The body itself is a vessel, sure.

Then there's also technology beyond human comprehension and they surely have figured out the secrets of the universe eons ago and know how to bend timespace to their will. Our "public" rocket technology seems absolutely pathetic... Although I do applaud companies like SpaceX for their endeavors. Then again I'm sure that many of us here don't really believe the lies that NASA would have stopped the Moon landings after the 70's and that we never went beyond that? Interstellar travel is probably already a reality for humans too. Or something close to it.

I don't think that our ET brothers and sisters will be announcing themselves anytime soon, considering the state of the collective human mindset. Nor will the governments ever admit the truth, at least not directly. Why? Because then they would also have to admit that they have lied to us for almost 70 years, about the ET phenomenon and the secrets of the universe. If we get our act together in time (which could be a luxury we're running out of...) then we might be allowed to take our rightful place in the galactic community. Much has to change before that and human consciousness needs to reach a new higher level. Currently we're still at the kindergarten level. What kind of a civilized civilization focuses on insane things like wars anyways? Did you hear the news? Humans allowed their fellow beings to starve to death on their planet while they were busy developing arms technology? Although the planet was and has been full of abudance for all. Now, what did Gandhi say about greed again?

Who knows, maybe in the not too distant future we will be experiencing something like this..? ;)

S4PYI6TzqYk
That movie blew my mind when I was a kid! That and Star Wars.

[lunaflare]

Do ETs exist? Yes.
This is my informed opinion...

[KiwiElf]

Those who have experienced a "thing", no longer need to believe in it - (which is impossible in some situations to prove to someone who has not experienced it).

[Innocent Warrior]

"Do ETs exist?"

According to an anonymous FBI special agent's report (name redacted) the answer, in short, is yes. It doesn't contain a conclusion saying a definitive yes, however, comments about the bulk (not all) of sightings being imagined or hoaxes, reports from pilots, and the degree to which the air force (not so much the FBI) took the investigations seriously indicates a solid yes. An excerpt from a very interesting report from 1947, declassified in 2011 (pg. 22, a memo including info sent by a professor) -


1. Part of the disks carry crews; others are under remote control.

2. Their mission is peaceful. The visitors contemplate settling on this plane.

3. These visitors are human-like but much larger in size.

4. They are not excarnate Earth people but come from their own world.

5. They do NOT come from a planet as we use the word, but from an etheric planet which interpenetrates with our own and is not perceptible to us.

6. The bodies of the visitors, and the craft, automatically materialize on entering the vibratory rate of our dense matter.

7. The disks posses a type of radiant energy or a ray, which will easily disintegrate any attacking ship. They reenter the etheric at will, and so simply disappear from our vision, without trace.

8. The region from which they come is not the “astral plane”, but corresponds to the Lokas or Talas. Students of osoteric matters will understand these terms.

9. They probably can not be reached by radio, but probably can be by radar. if a signal system can be devised for that (apparatus).

Link to the report, at the FBI vault here (https://vault.fbi.gov/UFO/UFO%20Part%201%20of%2016/view).

Credit to the author, Ivan, I found the document and pasted the excerpt via his article, here (http://www.ancient-code.com/the-fbi-admits-visits-of-beings-from-other-dimensions-declassified-fbi-document/).

Update: A note to anyone who intends to check out the document - the first 13 pages are difficult to read but the rest is ok.

[Camilo]

To answer your question, I'll make reference to what a good friend of mine and Avalon's friend says regarding this matter, as I fully agree with her assessment:

If you want to meet an E.T. all you have to do is... look in the mirror :)

Our physical bodies are made out of Gaia, they are "of Earth", but most souls are not from this planet, which means that the majority of our human collective is actually extra-terrestrial or ultra-dimensional (from other dimensions).

Because of this you may sometimes feel a pull towards understanding or finding our so called "true home". You will have a sense of wanting to go home.

Inelia Benz

[ozmirage]

Due to operational security, certain parties cannot reveal their identities in this matter, but have recovered memories of multiple abductions. One instance, in which there was a second party, a witness, both experienced 'missing time' (roughly 4 hours).

One may raise the following questions:
__ Was the abduction a hallucination?
__ Was the abduction by a human agent (government)?
__ Does the lack of evidence of said abduction void its occurrence?
__ Was the repeated experience of 'missing time' (inexplicable gaps in memory) a symptom of drugs, mental illness or injury?
__ Was the abduction by a non-human / extraterrestrial agent?
__ Was the abduction by a supernatural being?

IMHO, the abduction was by a non-human / extraterrestrial agent.
Can't prove it. But the other explanations do not fit with the memory.
It makes no sense to claim the abduction memory is false, excepting the one case where two were taken.

My correspondent cannot find an explanation that is in harmony with what is known about metaphysics, spirituality, or the mundane physical plane. No answers are forthcoming from 'the other side.' It remains a mystery.

But assuming abductions are factual events, such abductions raise many many questions about the nature of the universe and our place in it.

[Carmody]

Indigopete, i can not understand your logic in brushing off the evidence cited. Clifford Stone's testimony is conclusive, he saw little green men in crashed space craft

He saw “little green men” isn’t the same thing as seeing an “ET”.

This is what Im trying to point out. Everybody’s brainwashed with Hollywood concepts of what extra terrestrial contact would look like. It’s a kind of Mikey Mouse portrayal that bears no relation to the reality of inter stellar existence. I realise it’s difficult to see it that way if one is the subject of such brainwashing onesself - “hey this guy saw ET’s so they must be here” - but if you sit down and really think about it for a few years the illusion eventually washes off.


The ufo phenomena is a universal experience Pete. Millions of people all over the world have experienced some form of it. It may not be as universal as you'd like, but thats the problem with assumptions..especially with something as unpredicatable as ET's.

What have they experienced ? Do you actually know first hand of anyone who’s physically travelled to another planet and back ? Have you ever experienced it yourself ? Has anyone on this planet ?

Have a look around you - at the unbelievable diversity of species that surrounds our existence. Where do you think that diversity comes from ? Those ARE the aliens, right here under your nose and they didn’t get here in spaceships. The idea of interstellar transport in a single lifetime is a metaphor for reality but it is not reality. You are here, on this Planet. When your existence is contextualised in universal timescales, you are just as alien to it as the “little green men” and so is every other species.

Yet you got here somehow and it wasn’t in a disk-shaped craft.


It is a little ironic that you so easily acknowledge the existence of reincarnation and non dimensional existences - 2 concepts that are easily on par with interstellar ET's in the "impossible to prove" category - but are so quick to dismiss visits from aliens from other star systems.;) why?

I don’t dismiss “visits from aliens” at all. I’m just saying we are them. They don’t move around in material vehicles and it’s not difficult to arrive at that conclusion if you take off the Hollywood goggles for a minute.

The universe is holographic. It isn’t like some kind of big 3-D space that you can jump around from one point to the other as if you’re in a big hall. That’s only possible at the most tiny of of scales such as that in which we live our daily lives.

If you want to see aliens, look out the window or visit a jungle. You’ll learn more than standing idly with your jaw on the floor waiting for NASA to present the next chapter in the Hollywood fantasy ;)

You probably should pick up the book 'The Field' By lymm Mctaggart.

In there, you will find solid references to meta studies done of other studies on psychic sensitivities, surrounding the idea of consciousness as reality.

A post from a different thread:




Thank you Bill for the reminder to read The PK Man and The Holographic Universe. Oddly enough they are the two book I notice every time I walk past my bookcase -- I just needed that extra push to go and read them!

Wonderful! :)

I can almost guarantee that if you read The PK Man you will barely be able to put it down. And The Holographic Universe has been a life-changer (or a worldview-changer) for many.

Here's a famous short extract from it (often quoted by David Icke in his presentations), which you can read right now (just a page and a bit from the book):

http://projectavalon.net/The_Holographic_Universe_Michael_Talbot_p141_hypnotist_story.pdf

http://projectavalon.net/The_Holographic_Universe_Michael_Talbot_p141_hypnotist_story.pdf

The problem for those who may try and grasp this, but be 'reasonably sckeptical' in their own estimation, is that this is one incident.

In scientific terms, one example, anecdotal at that - apocryphal at best, in many opinions, would be easily dismissible.

A good researcher should decide to try both sides of a given table, to ensure that the debate, discussion or inquiry is balanced.

If the correct scientific regimen of balanced investigation is applied, then evidence has to be seeked out and added to the pile.

What one would find, is that one thousand, two thousand, ten thousand, 100,000 and beyond instances of such things happening, are on the record.

And, to add, if any form of inquiry into adjoining areas of potential and research are added in to the mix as a buffer point in stability and validity in the findings ...all potential to find fault in the single tale of the daughter and the hypnotist and the watch, the potential for that tale to be even mildly wrong or exaggerated - virtually disappears.

When that happens, all moorings to classical scientific reality as a base of investigation -disappear.

It is interesting to note that the data set for this area of research takes up, depending on the given bookstore's completeness..about 5% of the floor space. That at least 5% of the vast majority of complete bookstores have a wide selection of data at hand. Anyone can find it, and analyze it, anytime at all.

I've spent my time on this board creating the connectivity of the science for all of this. Taking cutting edge science and putting it in the context of this area of research, so that those who do finally attempt some sort of methodology of correlation and explanation, can begin to find the logic points that unravel the puzzle that is presented. It is not for my edification, it is for theirs.

I have strongly resisted the temptation to indulge in manipulation of humanity and society, via any sort of knowledge of these things, as all of where classical and cutting edge public science is going, all of that is but an open book to me. Anything they attempt to do, I can take to multiple steps beyond where they call the 'cutting edge'. I go so far as to tell them what their next steps and discoveries are.

Since all is connected to all, the pathways are necessarily diverse, which means that a general understanding of the underlying scientific principles brings knowledge of capacity in almost any potential area of scientific endeavor. Specifically that of engineering.

Which is where the dilemma lies, as the creation of objects and methods of manipulation of the fabric of reality is not something that should be attempted from a standpoint of and in ignorance. The consequences can be ridiculously high. It would be be best that knowledge and understanding be in place before engineering of any form is attempted. (understatement of the year or century)

I could go on for months, here, and in other spaces and places on this board, I have done just that.

[Carmody]

The answer that takes shape, is, of course..that..when consensus reality agrees well enough that ET does indeed exist, then we can connect to such a scenario.

Whether one realizes it or not, it's a dynamic bit of live steering through probability --in time.

If one can balance their inner life and put it on solid footing in a given expanded understanding of reality... then we can embrace a larger material world, one that is inclusive of what we call 'ET'.

[Innocent Warrior]

If you want to see ETs for yourself, I've had a little success by asking to see them. I have no recollection of seeing any in the flesh per se but I vividly saw them both times I asked to see them, one time during meditation and the other with my mind's eye. This may not be enough for a skeptic though.

Seeing some extra dimensional beings is pretty easy though, if you want to see them with your own eyes. Once you do, you can watch them and see for yourself they are intelligent and interact with us quite a lot. You know when you catch a glimpse of something out of the corner of your eye and then when you turn to get a good look at it, it disappears? Well if you just intend to feel them, instead of seeing them, they automatically become fully visible. I say intend because I often still can't feel them but they have become visible anyway. There are really white ones that look like those whispy clouds and they float around. The orbs which are kind of translucent and sort of flitter around, they must be pretty common, you can tune into those pretty easily too.

Best way to know for sure is to see for yourself, feel to see.

P.S. A note to anyone who thanked my previous post, I added text before, it was misleading otherwise, so you might want to check it, in case you want to remove your thanks (sorry).

[indigopete]

You probably should pick up the book 'The Field' By lymm Mctaggart.

In there, you will find solid references to meta studies done of other studies on psychic sensitivities, surrounding the idea of consciousness as reality.


Thanks ! I'll check it out :-)

[bluekungfoo]

Hello all, my very first post on the forum. I was about to start a topic but seeing this thread I think my pertaining question fits in to a small degree, and really starting a thread for what might be a small question I didn't think would be worth much.

My question is in regards to contact with aliens,

is there any rhyme or reason, speculations, theories, as to who is abducted / and returned / or is implanted with a device, versus those who are not.

in regards to our respective governments making contact or working with alien races. What benefit is it to an alien race to work with any of our respective governments; I ask this because , to me it appears that any alien civilization would have the upper hand in any sort of negotiations for just about any thing, the only thing I can think of which would be to hard to just do as one wishes is to obtain a large amount of land with out being bothered by society in general, I could see how a government agency could make access to federal land very easy and very private for another alien race. Other than that I am having a hard time trying to come up with other reasons why an alien race would only want to negotiate or work with only our respective government agencies and officials.

The general answer I see as to why a government would not want to announce contact with alien races' is, losing power, causing mass chaos, things of the sort.

an that is debatable on lots of reasons, but what would an alien race have reasons for not making blatant contact with humanity now..

other than that I am curious as to if those who believe in intelligent life outside of planet earth, are ever skeptical in general of claims and sightings ? Or perhaps I should narrow that to just this forum. could be a bit broad to just lump everyone in that question.

That and for those that go exploring in numerous ways to make contact with intelligent life outside of earth, to me that seems a bit risky as one is hoping for a positive encounter with a peaceful life form, is this exploration done with a method, or is one taking a generic risk of meeting the wrong life form.

That is it for now I think.

I did do some minor surfing on this forum for such answers, but either I didn't enter the correct search terms or I dunno, so hence why I chose to post here, and I hope I at the very least did not post this in the wrong thread.

[Bluegreen]

Although I've seen 4 UFOs in my life so far, I've never met an ET to my knowledge. So I cannot answer that question "yes". Nor, using the same logic, can I answer the question "no".

Consider that counting 1 digit per second, 24 hours a day, it takes about 12 days to count to a million. Using the same method, it takes about 32 years to count to a billion, and that is a mathematical fact that the PTB don't want you to know. But now you do.

How many stars in the Milky Way Galaxy? No one knows. However, scientists generally agree there at least between 100 and 200 million stars in the Milky Way Galaxy. Oops, did I say million? I meant billion. For convenience sake, let's just say 150 billion and fudge it.

How many of these stars are solar systems? Again, no one on the planet Earth knows, not even the smartest person in the world. But, let's quote NASA (Never A Straight Answer):

"Solar systems are the rule rather than the exception."

This leaves us with at least 76 billion stars (just in the Milky Way) with planets revolving around them. How many planets? No one knows. At least 152 billion. Using our solar system (which used to be known as the 9 Planet Solar System) as an average (we only have 8 now), this gives us at least 608 billion planets in the Milky Way Galaxy alone.

Is our galaxy the only one in the Universe? Hardly. The Milky Way Galaxy is part of what is scientifically known as the Local Group, which consists of about 32 galaxies, if memory serves and I could be off by a few. Is ours the largest galaxy in the Local Group? Hardly. That would be the Andromeda Galaxy, whose stars number in the trillions, and now my head is starting to hurt.

How many galaxies are in the Universe? No one knows. Another galaxy is discovered every single day, and that is a scientific fact. As of 2012 NASA had discovered and named over 4 million galaxies. Not solar systems; galaxies. How long would it take to count the known galaxies, known or estimated solar systems and planets "to date"? Use google and bring your calculator, which, by the way, was invented using Nikola Tesla patents, whose heirs should be richer than the Rockefellers, Rothschilds, Gates and Windsors combined. I don't even know, did he leave a will? Oh yeah, his papers were confiscated by the FBI in the interests of national security.

So, while I cannot answer the question "Do ETs exist?" via personal knowledge or experience, the question can be answered with mathematics:

The odds are 99.9% that the answer is yes. Take that to Las Vegas and, by all means, have fun.

:)

[M-Albion-3D]

I have not had a chance to read this entire thread thus far and hope I'm not repeating or treading where I should not, but the title "Do ETs exist" really caught my eye albeit a little late here.

Let me jump in here and say unabashedly that; off world beings absolutely do exist and....if anyone would like to confirm their existence, they can. Anyone can do this at anytime, the evidence is ready to download directly from the "HIGH RESOLUTION IMAGING SCIENCE EXPERIMENT" located at the University of Arizona, USA!

https://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ All one needs, is a good computer, some expansive bandwidth, a descent imaging program and Bob's your uncle. (suggest Irfanview as it's free, no crud, and powerful) http://www.irfanview.com/


So what's so special about this site?




Well it's the location where the image data is received, processed and posted each and every day, taken from the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter or MRO which is orbiting our closest planetary neighbor - MARS (just 45 million miles up the road). On board is the largest camera ever sent into space. And from an altitude of around 270 km above the surface, has taken thousands of snaps shots in 2D and 3D images of the surface at a resolution of 20cm per pixel!
The images are thus uploaded onto the above site directly, in a minimum
timeframe as required by the provisions of the freedom of information act.
Although some have been intentionally blurred IMO, most are not and if you
have the patience and know what to look for, the evidence is clear for you to
see....compliments of NASA! Sort of like the ultimate "Where's Waldo" game


Here's an image of the on board camera - so named "The Peoples Camera" and for good reason.


http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a528/marsevidence01/PIA07087_zpsceya9rxc.jpg


Once you get the hand of downloading the huge JP2000 files and converting them into uncompressed .tif files (meaning no data loss) you can then open the file and zoom right in and start perusing the surface of another planet in super high definition. After awhile, you will begin to see some very strange things, things that do not make any sense and for me, after three years of analysis, they still do not make any sense.


But...making sense of the anomalies is NOT the initial objective? The objective is - are the anomalies artificial or alien, or....are they natural topographical data points?


Well here's just a few close up, highly magnified clips of some of those anomalies. And consider this, there are not dozens of these anomalies on Mars, there are thousands! I have an entire hard drive full of images both in 2D and 3D of truly bizarre and quite artificial data points.


http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a528/marsevidence01/ESP_011359_1695_RED_normalized_zpsaqkbj89q.jpg



http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a528/marsevidence01/Anthropomorficfigure_zps9b01425e.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a528/marsevidence01/Image6_zps1c45a22f.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a528/marsevidence01/ESP_025310_1690Closeuplowerrightextream_zpsee4f6866.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a528/marsevidence01/ESP_013838_1695_REDnegcroppedupcloseofspecimen_zpscca99ff1.jpg





http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a528/marsevidence01/ESP_013772_1795_REDBLACKcropped_zps4b28a043.jpg


http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a528/marsevidence01/Two%20Heads_zpsvfmqwyyo.jpg


http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a528/marsevidence01/ESP_022910_1795_RED%20pinnochio_mount%20grey%20annotated_zpstvjijbmm.png


These are just a few and only in 2D. Once you start forming 3D images from the stereo anaglyph files also available from HiRise, things become truly amazing.

[Agape]

Now E.T. is here so what you do . ?

:sun::ROFL:

[M-Albion-3D]

Now E.T. is here so what you do . ?

:sun::ROFL:

Good question. I think we should do what humans (can) do best....try to understand them.

On Mars, there is a ton of alien evidence of "what it is that that do" as strange and bizarre as it is, but I for one, believe we can read into their "works of art" and get to know them. This is what I have been trying to do for quite some time. One can tell a lot about a mind from art and architecture.

With the highly enlightened people here on PA, we have a head start I think.

[M-Albion-3D]

For example. Take a close look at the "apparent" alien standing there which is approx 12 meters tall. When I first discovered this chap a couple of years ago, one can imagine, it was a bit of a "hallelujah moment" but upon closer inspection, there was far more to tell. Can you see the "other faces" around the tall alien chap?

There's a gorilla, two canines and a cone head human caricature. All of a sudden, this went from a single alien to a possible "holographic technology" of sorts. The image became instantly more complicated but far more intriguing. From then on, almost every single anomaly I discovered had a deep and perplexing story to tell.

I hope the folks here on PA will join in and give their impressions too and hopefully together, we can begin to unravel one f the most incredible mysteries of all time.

But first a word of caution, each must decide if they want to step over the Rubicon, for once you do, I can attest to it, there's no going back.

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a528/marsevidence01/Specimen%20A1%20Melas_zpse2prckuy.jpg

Here's a link to a "slow moving" video to the location of the image above.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B--tam0uh-oiS1RjTmd1OHVCNVk/view?usp=sharing

Catalog page: http://www.uahirise.org/ESP_011359_1695

[Bill Ryan]

each must decide if they want to step over the Rubicon

Wise words, and thank you. Personally, I'm staying on this side, with my feet dry. :)

This guy (if it is a guy) is lying on his back, as the image is captured from above — or, at least at a high angle — by satellite.

The scale is given as (http://www.uahirise.org/ESP_011359_1695) 25.7 cm (10 inches) per pixel, so the 'ET' would be quite a giant.

I respect your work, and all your good intentions, but I'm obliged to say truthfully that I believe much of it is pareidolia. (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/pareidolia)

I do also have to say, if I may, that I don't think this really belongs on this thread, which is a rather more scientifically philosophical (or philosophically scientific) discussion about whether the many kinds of beings that have been repeatedly reported, whoever or whatever they are, are of interplanetary origin. (At least, that's what I think the thread is asking!)

An authentic photo of an ET on Mars would be strong evidence to support the ETH (Extraterrestrial Hypothesis), but I'm not sure this is it.

:focus:

[M-Albion-3D]

each must decide if they want to step over the Rubicon

Wise words, and thank you. Personally, I'm staying on this side, with my feet dry. :)

This guy (if it is a guy) is lying on his back, as the image is captured from above — or, at least at a high angle — by satellite.

The scale is given as (http://www.uahirise.org/ESP_011359_1695) 25.7 cm (10 inches) per pixel, so the 'ET' would be quite a giant.

I respect your work, and all your good intentions, but I'm obliged to say truthfully that I believe much of it is pareidolia. (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/pareidolia)

I do also have to say, if I may, that I don't think this really belongs on this thread, which is a rather more scientifically philosophical (or philosophically scientific) discussion about whether the many kinds of beings that have been repeatedly reported, whoever or whatever they are, are of interplanetary origin. (At least, that's what I think the thread is asking!)

An authentic photo of an ET on Mars would be strong evidence to support the ETH (Extraterrestrial Hypothesis), but I'm not sure this is it.

:focus:

Thanks Bill, some wise words on wise words. Yes, understand your desire to stay on the dry side of the Rubicon as a step over, although deeply enlightening is, by its very nature - a tumultuous one.

In some ways I agree about the thread and shall cease further. But one thing for sure, this is not pareidolia. It is offensive to suggest that - what you are "seeing" on the surface of Mars is - "not really there....it's all in your mind oooooh" is a discussion left to "nay sayers" and secret keepers buzz jargon and not worthy of scientific evaluation of Martian anomalies imho.

For example:

This is pareidolia - water vapor with a vague appearance of a face.
http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a528/marsevidence01/pareidolia3_zpslzq0aude.jpg

With a hair style, shoulders and arms, legs and little booties - This is not pareidolia. Neither is it an isolated incident.
http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a528/marsevidence01/ESP_013838_1695_REDnegcroppedupcloseofspecimen_zpscca99ff1.jpg

Always...with all heart felt respect.
Mal

[EFO]

I hope one day you witness "them." Eyewitness testimony can be offered, but totally understand seeing is the only answer for some. Even with contact it didnt go as expected because always ended up being the bystander. It would have been awesome to go on-board, travel and meet them up close. If being honest with myself, it's still a part of what motivates me, maybe having the chance to go deeper after "seeing"... Didnt get all the answers I was looking for either. But, actually seeing other lifeforms, what else could one hope for? It's something you can never forget afterwards and like myself would have a difficult time walking away from, even after 7 years. It's almost a double edged sword though and could list a few negatives easy...and so would highly recommend people contact others that resonate with your own belief in helping to find the answers. Guess you could also go solo, it was that way for me but hindsight being 20-20, would have done it differently. Would have loved to gotten the insight.

Dear mojo,you are totally right in all you have written.It's unbelievable what is happening with a person when it start to see "them" and I speak from my own 30 years experience.My first encounter was at age of 10-11.I didn't realize at that age what was "it",but I "felt" it in an other way that I can not explain it not even today and now I'm more than sure what was "it".And yes, I want to met "them" in "flesh and blood",but for the moment I'm pleased with my "plasma entities" and amazing crafts from the night and day clear sky which are coming almost every day in different shapes and light which never forget "them" as you said.
"THEY" ARE AMAZING FROM ALL POINTS OF VIEW.

[Agape]

Now E.T. is here so what you do . ?

:sun::ROFL:

Good question. I think we should do what humans (can) do best....try to understand them.

Good answer, thanks. Especially if that was more than hypothetical answer .








On Mars, there is a ton of alien evidence of "what it is that that do" as strange and bizarre as it is, but I for one, believe we can read into their "works of art" and get to know them. This is what I have been trying to do for quite some time. One can tell a lot about a mind from art and architecture.

With the highly enlightened people here on PA, we have a head start I think.


With Mars , I'd have to agree with Bill in this case because from what I know , there's hardly anything too recent on Mars that could be attributed to civilisation

but people seek for images in NASA photographs in hopeless search for 'proof' ..

and of course .. that does not quite dismiss the option that Mars was once , possibly , habitable planet , billions of years ago and I'm actually quite trustful of the honest human means and efforts will be able to figure that out , sooner or later .
I think it's in fact, incredibly exciting to explore all the other planets in this mostly sterile solar system especially while we have so many problems to solve on Earth
but our home and also destiny lies much, much further .

People used to be fascinated with Mars and Venus and the Moon and claim someone lives there till it was sort of 'far to go' and explore .
It's even that in the days of old when many parts of Earth were considered 'terra incognita' and lands one should not step in without risk and so little was known about those lands that few people went and stories of dragons and giants and fairy-tale creatures were being told almost regularly of those faraway lands ,
so did people believe of other planets in this Solar system in certain times.

But of course ... you don't have to 'take that' from me if I say that the nearest advanced civilisation close to humans in evolution is probably some thousands of light years away but they've mastered space travel
and perhaps they aren't so excited about us as we would hope for, in either case ..


I have to agree with indigopete about large part of the ET discussion usually is metaphorical in nature .


Beautiful photo ...



http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/a528/marsevidence01/pareidolia3_zpslzq0aude.jpg

[EFO]

Now E.T. is here so what you do . ?

:sun::ROFL:

I think that is the best thing we can do :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Snph22qSUMU

Enjoy our new way of life :)

[Agape]

Now E.T. is here so what you do . ?

:sun::ROFL:

I think that is the best thing we can do :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Snph22qSUMU

Enjoy our new way of life :)

Our ET Elders think that fascination with technologies belongs to young minds while in old age civilisations and people settle , they think and live more cautiously ,

walk in slower pace , wage their steps , cause less harms to each other and the environment ...

they live in gardens they've created

TSYFxtEEjnk


It's different of course but it's very beautiful world where we came from , and it's harsh and hard to be here but we should remain humane despite all that


:flower:

[KiwiElf]

Now E.T. is here so what you do . ?

:sun::ROFL:

I think that is the best thing we can do :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Snph22qSUMU

Enjoy our new way of life :)

Bit of a side topic here - This is NOT from the next STAR WARS movie at all! (Talk about disinformation! In FACT, it's not from ANY STAR WARS movie - Perfect example tho, of how easy it is to mislead people ;)) Irrespective of the video title, I think you'll find that some clever CGI animator has substituted real aircraft with sci-fi craft from STAR WARS (perhaps as an ongoing part of what was known as the "The Sci-Fi Airshow" done a few years ago. It's a fantasy - an illusion - it only exists on-line :))

Here's a couple of examples of what ILM Visual Effects Supervisor Bill George created: (you can get the rest by putting "Sci-Fi Airshow" into YouTube's Search Engine. ;)

3vy2AVWfHvk

SR_TBlE0Bho

:focus:

[EFO]

@Agape and @KiwiElf

To avoid misinterpretation first I'll reply to Agape.I replied to your post regarding my posted clip in a both funny and serious way:funny - if is considered posted clip uploaded on youtube two years ago just a parody,which is it,because right at its beginning you will see a road sign on which the author of the clip inserted a text "Imperial Starport Frankfurt" and from this text has start the funny part,although pretty interesting which lead to the serious way of interpretation of the clip as follow:

Consider that the clip wasn't made in CGI and was filmed for real and as you call them ETs are here walking and interact directly with us,for me is an other way of life.On the other hand,having ETs technology and use it in a good way under their supervision,until we truly learn ti handle it,will sure lead to a perfect way of living,exactly like in your clip with Kyoto botanical garden.And what is more refreshing having a trip,for example,to the other side of Milky Way and turn back to a beautiful home described just like in your video?

Perhaps sometime we have to better judge in dual reality.

Now I'll reply to KiwiElf
I didn't said that is from Star Wars,therefor no disinformation or misleading people.For the rest,please see my above reply to Agape.Oh, and by the way, most sci-fi movies are made for "sensation per second".

[Agape]

Consider that the clip wasn't made in CGI and was filmed for real and as you call them ETs are here walking and interact directly with us,for me is an other way of life.On the other hand,having ETs technology and use it in a good way under their supervision,until we truly learn ti handle it,will sure lead to a perfect way of living,exactly like in your clip with Kyoto botanical garden.And what is more refreshing having a trip,for example,to the other side of Milky Way and turn back to a beautiful home described just like in your video?

Yes I believe that's completely possible , with a small twist to it . It's usually small team of visitors working in various capacities , as guests of the hosting civilisation.

It's not an invasion. You don't want invasion. You can only take guests .

Imagine about hundred of people in circle, standing quietly in prayer holding hands . ..
shrouded in twilight ..

around them , bigger and bigger circles of people holding hands ..


it's upon you to decide what 's real



:ufo:

[EFO]

Consider that the clip wasn't made in CGI and was filmed for real and as you call them ETs are here walking and interact directly with us,for me is an other way of life.On the other hand,having ETs technology and use it in a good way under their supervision,until we truly learn ti handle it,will sure lead to a perfect way of living,exactly like in your clip with Kyoto botanical garden.And what is more refreshing having a trip,for example,to the other side of Milky Way and turn back to a beautiful home described just like in your video?

Yes I believe that's completely possible , with a small twist to it . It's usually small team of visitors working in various capacities , as guests of the hosting civilisation.

It's not an invasion. You don't want invasion. You can only take guests .

Imagine about hundred of people in circle, standing quietly in prayer holding hands . ..
shrouded in twilight ..

around them , bigger and bigger circles of people holding hands ..


it's upon you to decide what 's real



:ufo:

Dear Agape,

I didn't even think to an invasion.My reply was in general for those people who read this forum/thread.

Some of us,here on this forum,has their own experiences as well as many other people all over the world,which are not on this forum.My own experience is stretching for more than 30 years from the age of 10-11.I joined this forum with the hope that in a way or an other I can tell a very small part of my story and here is this part http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?90770-Plasma-entities

The rest of my experience we can discuss it in private.

Yes I can imagine and I saw people gathering in circles in remote areas praying/meditating to a common wish.Perhaps it help them to fulfill their wish/es,I don't know.Perhaps they wish to reach their wish/es.My question to them is:what you do when the wish/es become reality?I think that most of them will be more than overwhelmed in a way or an other.

Taking decisions will lead to a dead end sometimes,making conclusions will always open other gate/s.Real is what you REALLY see,feel,think...it's like pulling aside a curtain.

I think we have discuss enough off topic :)

[KiwiElf]

No-one accused you of doing so EFO - please re-read my post - it was aimed squarely at the title of the YT video/poster as an off-topic observation ;)(and I got your point for posting it - it was very funny :))

[EFO]

No-one accused you of doing so EFO - please re-read my post - it was aimed squarely at the title of the YT video/poster (and I got your point for posting it - it was very funny :))

I'm glad that we finished this useless dialogue and you understand my point regarding the video.Perhaps we both made mistakes and now all's clear.I didn't join this forum to make jokes of serious things.I have my personal experiences regarding "alien life" to make jokes of it or anyone else.