"They used to inhabit this planet when there was not a sun"

[Atlas]

Cusco PhD anthropologist Theo Paredes offers amazing insight and wisdom:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Fi4WOHW0NI

[earthadvocate]

Thank you for posting,I was there in 2013 with a group of 5 and 2 shamans , they never explain what this video did, but they said it was a special place, we had a despacho ceremony there.

[ghostrider]

Trees need sunlight to grow, grass needs sunlight to grow, the flora and fauna need sunlight ... the sun is the first component to forming a solar system, its enormous and far reaching gravitational arms bind everything together... sorry but no way there was a planet before a sun ...

[East Sun]

There are countless entities beyond what we can even imagine that don't need what we need to exist. extra dimensional beings and places. That is what I believe.

Of course I can't prove that to you but based on what I have read about the universe's vast scope and diversity there can be anything and everything and
probably is. Just a thought for those so inspired to look beyond. IMO

[Jeffedelic]

Trees need sunlight to grow, grass needs sunlight to grow, the flora and fauna need sunlight ... the sun is the first component to forming a solar system, its enormous and far reaching gravitational arms bind everything together... sorry but no way there was a planet before a sun ...

Even if there was some stray body floating through the void (which I suppose could happen under certain conditions but would still need an original star to form) it'd be crazy to think it'd be able to encounter a new solar system and enter a stable, "normal" orbit.

[Atlas]

A comment posted on youtube:



Someone should add up/compare/put in perspective what is said here and what is presented in the short video:
The World & Mankind Before The Flood (Dr. Carl Baugh)
oFiDYDfbGjY

[PurpleLama]

Folks need to look into the electric universe theory before poo pooing on this thread.

[araucaria]

Folks need to look into the electric universe theory before poo pooing on this thread.
Exactly. I have been posting quite a bit on this subject of late. The below link is a good place to check it out. By my understanding, Peru would be precisely in the twilight zone of an Earth with Saturn as its star in a geostationary north polar position. This would have ended when the Saturn system entered the solar system.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?89523-So-Why-hasn-t-Planet-Earth-been-invaded&p=1054800&viewfull=1#post1054800

[Agape]

It's what I remember about the times our ET ancestors came here (http://www.ufocasebook.com/etoriginofmankind.html) , millions of years ago ( who knows what time was it exactly ) , living in kind of 'twilight zone' for very long time .
It does not mean there was no Sun or anything remotely close to the idea , it just means the light was very dim and earthly atmosphere was obscured
and the same phenomenon may have occurred many times later as well , perhaps following some major cataclysm.

[ghostrider]

The missing link to the electric universe is spiritual energy... Creation is the all powerful, infinite absolute for lack of a better word you could say God ... spiritual energy creates dark energy, dark matter, black holes etc, which creates suns, galaxies, stars, etc ... according to the plejaren and Enochs writings , the entire universe was created by pure spiritual energy the size of a flea , you can read about it at theyfly.com, and the futureofmankind.uk. ...

[Sunny-side-up]

Trees need sunlight to grow, grass needs sunlight to grow, the flora and fauna need sunlight ... the sun is the first component to forming a solar system, its enormous and far reaching gravitational arms bind everything together... sorry but no way there was a planet before a sun ...

Hi ghostrider I think Dr Theo Paredes was saying 'Twlight' there was a sun then but in daytime it was like a 'twlight' strength.

It's just his wording/English language level, not actually saying/meaning no sun.

That's my interpretation of that section of his talk.
:sun:

[DSKlausler]

Folks need to look into the electric universe theory before poo pooing on this thread.

Good morning,

Back in the day, I spent a great deal of time with the EU - books and video.
Not that they are entirely incompatible, but my money is on Dewey B. Larson's Reciprocal System of theory.
http://reciprocalsystem.org/

As to population of "earth", might I suggest the very interesting Daniel Papers:
http://www.conscioushugs.com/daniel-papers/

Sincerely,

Dave

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

It's what I remember about the times our ET ancestors came here (http://www.ufocasebook.com/etoriginofmankind.html) , millions of years ago ( who knows what time was it exactly ) , living in kind of 'twilight zone' for very long time .
It does not mean there was no Sun or anything remotely close to the idea , it just means the light was very dim and earthly atmosphere was obscured
and the same phenomenon may have occurred many times later as well , perhaps following some major cataclysm.

Very true. There have been many cataclysms throughout the Earth's history that could have theoretically blocked out the sun. Events such as these might give the impression to primitive peoples who survived them that there was no Sun in the sky.

Although long before Homo Sapiens (allegedly), one example being the Impact Winter of the Chicxulub Meteor collision, purportedly knocking out the dinosaurs 66million years ago. Another, the Siberian Traps eruptions that spread approximately 2 million square kilometres of basalt lava across the Earth's surface, poisoning the atmosphere, and possibly also blocking out the sun's rays for a long period of time.

[Agape]

It's what I remember about the times our ET ancestors came here (http://www.ufocasebook.com/etoriginofmankind.html) , millions of years ago ( who knows what time was it exactly ) , living in kind of 'twilight zone' for very long time .
It does not mean there was no Sun or anything remotely close to the idea , it just means the light was very dim and earthly atmosphere was obscured
and the same phenomenon may have occurred many times later as well , perhaps following some major cataclysm.

Very true. There have been many cataclysms throughout the Earth's history that could have theoretically blocked out the sun. Events such as these might give the impression to primitive peoples who survived them that there was no Sun in the sky.

Although long before Homo Sapiens (allegedly), one example being the Impact Winter of the Chicxulub Meteor collision, purportedly knocking out the dinosaurs 66million years ago. Another, the Siberian Traps eruptions that spread approximately 2 million square kilometres of basalt lava across the Earth's surface, poisoning the atmosphere, and possibly also blocking out the sun's rays for a long period of time.



It's how they describe the Dream Time, the Time before Time .. I believe.

Our ancestors , we were not primitive people ( well it's in the file ). We were waiting for the Sun come out for very long time , weeks of our time .. thousands of human years i think ..
so we grew weak i think . But the Sun is growing dangerous nowadays , it's too bright, too hot ..


:sun:

[kirolak]

Folks need to look into the electric universe theory before poo pooing on this thread.

Good morning,

Back in the day, I spent a great deal of time with the EU - books and video.
Not that they are entirely incompatible, but my money is on Dewey B. Larson's Reciprocal System of theory.
http://reciprocalsystem.org/

As to population of "earth", might I suggest the very interesting Daniel Papers:
http://www.conscioushugs.com/daniel-papers/

Sincerely,

Dave


Thank you for drawing my attention to the Daniel Papers, really fascinating!

[araucaria]

It's what I remember about the times our ET ancestors came here (http://www.ufocasebook.com/etoriginofmankind.html) , millions of years ago ( who knows what time was it exactly ) , living in kind of 'twilight zone' for very long time .
It does not mean there was no Sun or anything remotely close to the idea , it just means the light was very dim and earthly atmosphere was obscured
and the same phenomenon may have occurred many times later as well , perhaps following some major cataclysm.
Agape, this is not the first time you have followed one of my posts with something contradictory. Disagreeing is OK, because I have no personal stake in the ideas that I explore. I am simply following them as far as they will take me, and if at some stage they were to come to a dead end, that would be fine by me. Hence I don’t normally respond, and even now I am not responding to any slight irritation of being contradicted, but to the pattern of contradiction. I don’t normally respond because what you say is usually predicated on your personal experience, which is at once unprovable and virtually irrefutable. When you say a categorical no to my reasoned thought, my reasoned thought has no answer to that. But in light of my recent thinking, it does actually have an answer to a rereading of your Barry King and Project Camelot interviews.

Talbott’s Saturn scenario I referred to is based on huge amounts of world myth and artefacts, something the entire human population seems to have grappled with at some point. The science backing him up already existed: the electric universe (EU) theory was already busy making correct predictions about the properties of comets; no shoe-horning, or indeed any new research at all, was necessary to back up Talbott’s account. However, it is a static picture which expressly includes the Sun as well as Saturn. My own contribution is to turn this into a dynamic scenario enabling us to get from orbit around Saturn to where we are now. The dynamic factor would appear to be entry into the solar system whereby Saturn would be stopped in its tracks by Jupiter, with the smaller planets getting through to the inner solar system. The ‘no sun’ (or possibly distant binary companion only) hypothesis is merely a consequence of thinking this through. Hence it is predictable that some ancient civilization might remember a time with no sun: let’s just accept their evidence as they give it. After all, you expect no less for yourself.

Accepting your evidence, then, as you give it, where does it lead me? Very deep, but not very far, I’m afraid. (I am reminded of woodwork: if you chisel the surface with the bevelled side of the chisel, you can carve your way down in a gently controlled manner; but if you dig in with the flat side, you go too deep too fast and get stuck.) You and your ET group arrived on a ship 80 million years ago that you say has been sinking into the earth’s crust ever since, and you complain you are unable to interest scientists to take a look, although there may be something down there after all this time. All this may be true for all I know; but it is painfully obvious why the research is never going to happen: a huge investment of resources on the basis of one person’s paranormal say-so and not a sniff of material evidence to provide a lead. No one has ever started digging without stumbling over some artefact first.

The above EU story tells you how to get scientists on board with zany ET stuff beyond their funding grade. You bring to them readymade material that corroborates their own existing theories: they are won over because they have already done their homework, on their own terms, in their own language; it is all grist to their mill. Your unfortunate situation on the other hand raises three practical issues that create the economic one: scientists generally have no handle on the paranormal, interstellar travel, or really ancient sophisticated life forms. If they do, then they may no longer have a handle on mainstream science. The EU crowd and others like them have not lost the way back into the mainstream: they follow standard scientific protocol in making predictions about comets etc. that gives them credibility when such predictions are proven correct.

Putting your ‘Bodhgaya event’ into this context – without questioning its validity, you understand, but merely looking at its reception, what is to be done with it – what you would get from a scientific exploration would likely be more ‘forbidden archaeology’. Forbidden archaeology is chronologically anomalous material that is swept under the carpet, i.e. left unexplained and conveniently forgotten in museum store-rooms. When this is impossible, as in the case of the pyramids, analysis of chronologically anomalous material gets relegated to the status of pseudo-science, here pyramidology. Now the content of ‘pseudo-science’ is not always bad science: if you take the official dimensions of the Great Pyramid and derive mathematical functions such as pi, there is nothing wrong with the math; you simply hit the brick wall (or stone pyramid) of anachronism, and the better your mathematical proof the harder you hit it. What to do? All anyone can do is make their little scratch, possibly chip off a small flake, and trust that a breach will eventually be achieved.

The ‘Bodhgaya event’ – were something ever to be dug up – would be forbidden archaeology in spades (pun intended). There is a contradiction right there: you don’t go looking for forbidden archaeology, it turns up unwanted and has to be hidden again. Alternatively, this ancient crash site would go the way of Roswell: straight into black ops. But there you have another problem: who needs Bodhgaya when you already have Roswell in realtime to back-engineer, no digging required? Actually I have a whole bunch of issues with your report that would need a separate thread, but let me give one concrete example here. In your report, you say with reference to your ET civilization:

our civilisation is one of the oldest in universe... millions of years of our star time. One hour of our time is approximately twenty years of earthly time long... It is very far from here and not at all affected by any local happenings.
Doing the math is awkward because you don’t say how long a year is. For the sake of argument, and since you are comparing to earth time, let’s say it is 365 days of 24 hours, or 8760 hours, like ours. Hence 20 years is 175,200 hours. That would make one ET year 8760*175,200 earth years, or a little over 1.5 billion years. Hence it comes as no surprise to learn that a civilization claiming to be millions of billions (quadrillions) of years old is ‘not at all affected by any local happenings’ in a universe thought (doubtless mistakenly) to be only a few billion years old. (The one possible exception being the loss of one of its ships here, with 10,000 souls on board). More to the point, on a planet that has only just discovered space weather and is only beginning to think of interstellar and intergalactic weather, local humans, who are by most accounts a fairly young race, likewise understandably feel not at all affected by happenings so remote in space and time. The actual situation however is much ‘worse’ than this if we factor in your suggestion that older planets rotate more slowly. If that is the case, then your home planet’s day and year would be much longer, meaning that in earth years we are talking about a universe not quadrillions but quintillions of years old.

What this means is that any notion of current relevance goes out the window: the notion of ‘soon’, to quote an example that cropped up recently, is hugely dilated into ‘this year, next year, some time, never’. Why earthlings are fond of words like ‘soon’ is because we are working in emergency conditions to an earth-based timescale: an urgent human predicament needs solving on a human timescale, if not now at least asap. According to my reading of the Saturn story, varying subjective times are indeed already a huge issue on this much tinier local scale (there are actually many more commonalities than that). We have to start learning to deal with this problem from the beginning; your experience, however real, would require us to tackle this time issue from the hardest possible angle: near eternity.

The Blue Avians-type scenario is Beckettian Absurdism for a new audience: the plot of Samuel Beckett’s play Waiting for Godot is tomorrow never comes: ‘Mr Godot can’t come today, but he’ll come tomorrow’. The planned rescue by your most ancient race is a maximalist non-Hollywood version of ‘ET phone home’, aka Beckettian Absurdism/Blue Avianism: ‘our people are coming, but not any time soon, and that means probably thousands if not millions of your years (always supposing they got our distress signal)’. It is exactly the same story, inflated beyond all believable proportions, and of zero current relevance, except perhaps negatively, to encourage despair.

This I feel is why you are getting no traction with this ancient scenario (as opposed, I hasten to add, to the general wisdom you contribute to the forum). I for one am not sorry that this is so, because, just suppose that scientific evidence were forthcoming: it would place you in the position of a Corey Goode-type figure with the validation Corey Goode is never going to get on this forum at least: having been proven right on the main element you would become a messianic figure, an authority whom people would have to believe regarding anything else that you might say as well. More divine revelation is not the answer. It calls for a leap of faith that we are not prepared to make, having been there done that, and found that it is better to work things out for ourselves. Checking your data in the field involves a similar leap of faith in yourself which no scientist worthy of the name is going to make. Vetting your report on the other hand is something people like myself can do. In a nutshell, given that your ‘Source’ is out of range, the ‘source’ which enabled your experience has to be much closer to home and – quite independently of any negative or positive content – that makes your experience authentic in terms of your ‘source’, and less than authentic in terms of your ‘Source’.

Bill Ryan is a scientist. I see on another thread you have been asking him to ban you because you are unhappy with the disregard you have been shown. http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?90931-THE-EVENT-Analysis-and-Opinion&p=1070717&viewfull=1#post1070717 Bill, I would suggest, is unlikely to ban you, to the extent that you have broken no forum rules (nor has anyone else in disregarding you). I find it reassuring that a member will not be banned for no reason. The forum’s motto may be ‘where science and spirituality meet’, but the fact that they don’t always do so is not a hanging matter, it is a work in progress. Within the guidelines, no one is asking anyone to leave, we all have to learn to adjust, experiencers and non-experiencers alike. That at least is the only agenda I have; peaceful cohabitation as an end in itself is what transcends the accidents of circumstance. We all have an incredible amount of personal stuff that we think is important to share, but at the same time, perhaps it is actually getting in the way. Of course it is important to share, but more in the sense of getting something out of one’s system. This certainly applies to the stuff I am talking about: what we tend to call other people’s beliefs or pseudo-knowledge as opposed to what we of course really know through personal experience. ‘Events’ (another buzzword) are like doors, only interesting depending on where they lead, and whom; some destinations are collective, others individual. As its name suggests, the ‘Bodhgaya Event’ is such an event – whether it is one or the other type, well that is where we seem to disagree.

So, Agape, I’m afraid, if you sincerely want out of here, you are going to have to retire of your own accord, or simply stop posting. But since you don’t seem able to do that, you could always remind Bill that you have been flouting forum policy on channelled material, normally restricted to a signposted unendorsed area, but in your case posted all over the place. He will probably just ask you to desist. That would be good advice you might want to follow: you are always at your best when you give it a rest – rhyme intended :)

[Agape]

Agape, this is not the first time you have followed one of my posts with something contradictory

Dear Avalon member Araucaria ,

I've responded to thread started by Atlas on topic that is familiar with me, for my own reasons.
Your very post preceding mine has no connection to what I've posted neither I'm debating your post .
You'd better understand that people come here from very different corners of world , Universe and experience .

They do not specifically come or 'follow' after each other .

You seem to be attached to an idea foreign to me, such as following someone and attacking their post which is WHAT YOU ARE DOING NOW

and miss COMPLETELY someone have option or contribution to the topic that does not correlate with yours.

With that, I will simply skip reading the rest of your lengthy article . Hope that's ok with you .
I've not followed or responded to your posting.


Thanks :flower:



I've sent a report to the MOD team, if they wish to talk to me on my presence here on forum or if they so agree with your take , they can always take it with me in PMs.

If your 'opinion' represents 'the whole of Avalon' and kind of 'fake dignity' you're offering in war of hundreds ( presumably ) against one physically weakened individual then of course, there's no option than 'stop posting' .

But again, dear Araucaria , I've neither followed or responded to your posting in this thread as anyone with intellect could understand and you could probably too unless you're set up against me, for what reason, since long ago and it never let you ,

i've avoided you since .. never wish to cause more arguments. Kindly get back to the topic unless you have something meaningful and good to say.


THANKS :angel:


For reference : the last ( and nearly only one ) exchange we two have ever had was in October 2014 if my eyes serve me well ,
in the thread In response to Araucaria (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?76388-In-Response-to-Araucaria--) that I've created ( within my private forum here ) in order to reply to your posting in Simon Parkes thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?76062-UK-Councillor-Simon-Parkes-raised-by-Mantid-ETs-The-Great-Shift-begins-in-2017&p=891499#post891499) which you addressed to me but debating you further would obviously take the whole thread further, off topic.
Other than that , I've quoted or responded to you only few times altogether, if memory serves me well, again.

You're great rhetorician ( or writer, in this case ) but trying to be in didactic, paternal stand towards and above my head , with unclear motivations and means used : if you have any true interest in me , why not responding in one of my own case threads : of all ,
and using your own intelligence to represent a 'pawn of collective conscience' here and trying to shame me in public, number of times ,
does not really seem to be a sign of independent thinker or mature individual but I know I'm wrong here .


You're most welcome to rephrase your article and questions in way that does not resemble 'repetitive targeting' of individual because I do not think there's fairly anything I've done to you ( and yours ) that would warranty such an attack.

IF you were legitimate 'investigator' , researcher, scientists, therapist or anyone fitting to such category and well meaning individual ,
those questions you're rising - but it remains doubtful to makings of this forum whether you want those questions answered- would be styled differently .

Questioning a witness can be done with dignity. What you've plotted above resembles attack on character and no decent individual should answer questions posed in that manner,
dear Araucaria , I'm not a terrorist .

Bill Ryan himself bumped my case thread number of times and welcomed people to read and ask questions.

It does not mean that my understanding can not correlate with other peoples information ( I hope ) or that I've to be confined to premises of one thread .

Regarding further proofs and questions and whether such can be provided and in what manner , again, returning this debate to the founder of this forum.

[Agape]

For references sake ..


Agape, this is not the first time you have followed one of my posts with something contradictory. Disagreeing is OK, because I have no personal stake in the ideas that I explore. I am simply following them as far as they will take me, and if at some stage they were to come to a dead end, that would be fine by me. Hence I don’t normally respond, and even now I am not responding to any slight irritation of being contradicted, but to the pattern of contradiction. I don’t normally respond because what you say is usually predicated on your personal experience, which is at once unprovable and virtually irrefutable. When you say a categorical no to my reasoned thought, my reasoned thought has no answer to that. But in light of my recent thinking, it does actually have an answer to a rereading of your Barry King and Project Camelot interviews.

Talbott’s Saturn scenario I referred to is based on huge amounts of world myth and artefacts, something the entire human population seems to have grappled with at some point. The science backing him up already existed: the electric universe (EU) theory was already busy making correct predictions about the properties of comets; no shoe-horning, or indeed any new research at all, was necessary to back up Talbott’s account. However, it is a static picture which expressly includes the Sun as well as Saturn. My own contribution is to turn this into a dynamic scenario enabling us to get from orbit around Saturn to where we are now. The dynamic factor would appear to be entry into the solar system whereby Saturn would be stopped in its tracks by Jupiter, with the smaller planets getting through to the inner solar system. The ‘no sun’ (or possibly distant binary companion only) hypothesis is merely a consequence of thinking this through. Hence it is predictable that some ancient civilization might remember a time with no sun: let’s just accept their evidence as they give it. After all, you expect no less for yourself.

Accepting your evidence, then, as you give it, where does it lead me? Very deep, but not very far, I’m afraid.


The reason why I can not answer to you here is for you starting from wrong presumption.

I can't confirm or deny that you've accidentally jumped to similar presumptions with me before because I'm neither controlling you, checking your mind or following what you say .
I know how frustrating this sounds but .. complicated discussions can occur between friends wishing to correlate their pieces of information and put things together ( synthetic approach ) rather than they'd occur between people who seem to be set on path of intelligence analysts , as yourself .

Even if the rest of your article is meaningful, the beginning rises striking red alert with me .

You're implying something at start that is absolutely not valid from any side of validity of cognition,
and it's unfortunately you hunting down the presumed controversies ( from your analytic standpoint ) and getting caught in your ways .

I'm not . I've missed your posting about David Talbott and somewhat eccentric looking theory of Saturn and Mars caught in stationary position towards Earth but now that I've checked the link,
I'd have to say it's just a theory . I did not study that theory so that I'd have data and time at my side to either support it or disprove it .

But it does not mean ( to me ) that you ( or anyone of us ) provided definitive answer to the question.

Further, my posting here did not represent an 'evidence' . It merely represents 'a figment of memory' where I'm concerned .


You may be very talented and intuitive writer Araucaria but there are reasons why I won't enter to discussion with you and those are simple ,
if you twist the subtle laws of logic couple of times or make something/someone look ostensively , rigidly stupid by using even small lies ,
with no need to remind us how the makings of human language are based on the 'art of pretence'
we can only arrive in another ERROR.

It's not why I come here . Right from the start the broader 'forum' has only a meaning in rare moments when we can put some of our information together .

Your 'origin' and task here seems to be TOTALLY different from mine , you come to analyse and compare what people say about each other .

Each of the people, theories , histories and events quoted here have life of their own . Some may be 'short of essence' . Others are full of it but the 'essence' remains really invisible to you unless you go for the person, the philosophy they teach, the particular case .. and study them in person.

So no matter what are your questions in disguise , the whole caveat of your posting to me , starting from 'sorry you stepped on my toe'
which isn't true, I simply dared to post 'after you ' and it seems that you think you've provided conclusive answer to the question of this thread

could be condensed to one sentence , something like 'Agape , how do you dare to post and remind us of your 'Bodhgaya ET Event' while we never asked you to do that ,

we are not capable of decent interview with you or believing anything you say but perhaps, you want to write a book or provide us with big fat chunk of .. evidence' .


:bigsmile:

You see , dear forum as represented by Araucaria, I really don't need you for that stand against me , it's an automatic one rifle , it's completely automatised in minds of human society as we know it . You only repeat it in various forms and alterations from the beginning .
Like a CD that plays in your head , you're unable to act with dignity and feel for an individual beyond that or even rise a good question.

It's like talking to a machine really .

So please forgive I don't answer because I think that your 'machine' in its best configuration was already programmed and is running its program where someone like me have basically NO PLACE .


Beyond that , some of that 'programming' that is at the very roots of your controversy and this world is FULL of them unless you've noticed has much to do with times and world long gone now and world that keeps evolving, in front of our eyes .
It's a world where you wake up from being automatically self-assured , well off , well educated gentleman of aristocratic character who doubles between many existential options and philosophies
to being a smart kid dressed in rags on streets of Rio de Janeiro who could in fact , give you some direct answers to your 'important questions' but NEVER WILL.

Yes, you're right there . It's just because you're 'so right' about yourself and the world as it looks to you that you'll never meet those who are not so right and fitting to your paradigm.

And the same is true probably for all the rest of us . We can know and see much but we're definitely not meant to be part of everything .

There are major world events taking place as we talk and we're quite lucky NOT to be part of them .
There's a definition to ones 'time-line' , the Universe is vast ...

and we have - in fact- heard of each other .. I think. Did I.


:star:

[Agape]

This I feel is why you are getting no traction with this ancient scenario (as opposed, I hasten to add, to the general wisdom you contribute to the forum). I for one am not sorry that this is so, because, just suppose that scientific evidence were forthcoming: it would place you in the position of a Corey Goode-type figure with the validation Corey Goode is never going to get on this forum at least: having been proven right on the main element you would become a messianic figure, an authority whom people would have to believe regarding anything else that you might say as well. More divine revelation is not the answer. It calls for a leap of faith that we are not prepared to make, having been there done that, and found that it is better to work things out for ourselves. Checking your data in the field involves a similar leap of faith in yourself which no scientist worthy of the name is going to make. Vetting your report on the other hand is something people like myself can do. In a nutshell, given that your ‘Source’ is out of range, the ‘source’ which enabled your experience has to be much closer to home and – quite independently of any negative or positive content – that makes your experience authentic in terms of your ‘source’, and less than authentic in terms of your ‘Source’.

Bill Ryan is a scientist. I see on another thread you have been asking him to ban you because you are unhappy with the disregard you have been shown. http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?90931-THE-EVENT-Analysis-and-Opinion&p=1070717&viewfull=1#post1070717 Bill, I would suggest, is unlikely to ban you, to the extent that you have broken no forum rules (nor has anyone else in disregarding you). I find it reassuring that a member will not be banned for no reason. The forum’s motto may be ‘where science and spirituality meet’, but the fact that they don’t always do so is not a hanging matter, it is a work in progress. Within the guidelines, no one is asking anyone to leave, we all have to learn to adjust, experiencers and non-experiencers alike. That at least is the only agenda I have; peaceful cohabitation as an end in itself is what transcends the accidents of circumstance. We all have an incredible amount of personal stuff that we think is important to share, but at the same time, perhaps it is actually getting in the way. Of course it is important to share, but more in the sense of getting something out of one’s system. This certainly applies to the stuff I am talking about: what we tend to call other people’s beliefs or pseudo-knowledge as opposed to what we of course really know through personal experience. ‘Events’ (another buzzword) are like doors, only interesting depending on where they lead, and whom; some destinations are collective, others individual. As its name suggests, the ‘Bodhgaya Event’ is such an event – whether it is one or the other type, well that is where we seem to disagree.

So, Agape, I’m afraid, if you sincerely want out of here, you are going to have to retire of your own accord, or simply stop posting. But since you don’t seem able to do that, you could always remind Bill that you have been flouting forum policy on channelled material, normally restricted to a signposted unendorsed area, but in your case posted all over the place. He will probably just ask you to desist. That would be good advice you might want to follow: you are always at your best when you give it a rest – rhyme intended :)


I think you've crossed the line of despairing idiocy when it comes to reading me , since start and too many times , even if Bill stands by your side ,
I don't mind to say the following : you're being ethically rude ,

presenting me and my testimony in the worst light possible .

In your linear logic and non stop attack plot lasting for years now , and I've specifically asked Bill before coming over this time whether to retire my account or whether he thinks my presence is sustainable here, after many months of absence from the stress some of which was unfortunately , indirectly related to flat logic of this forum,
without censorship and attacks of unfriendly philosophers of your calibre , respectable Araucaria,
Bill thought it's ok to come .

Though , of course , I'm not sure now whether Bill really, rather supports your opinion and take on me and whether it's fine according to him I'm being talked down to , by you for example ,
not a good sign is it.

You seem to represent him . The forums 'best intel' . You say 'Bill Ryan is a scientist' . So am I . The world is full of many types of scientists and not all are of the same ilk.

You're going bit too far here to get on me , after all you've been side to here , one way or another and doomsday predictions of many kinds ,

you've retired it seems to me .. to position of medieval inquisition calling 'messianic blah' and 'diabolic twist' to anyone who you do not automatically understand,

and don't stop even from calling me 'channeller' spreading my messages over the forum.

I had huge amount ( I thought ) of respect to you years ago when You seemed to be bright thinker to me but from our 'closer encounters' and your tendency to manipulate weak points and drag them to the 'darker side' of the Moon,
I am not going to pardon you .

Last when we spoke , October 2014 after you've created similar faux pas in Simon Parkes thread after I've posted some well meant to be complimentary information,
that you completely misunderstand because you have no personal experience or understanding in this area ,
you started with good sounding post to me in the same thread to which i naively answered.
After two pages , Barry King that time was blamed for me , for disrupting Simon Parkes thread , I was blamed soon after .
I still believed you're well meaning individual and opened a separate answer thread to you ( vis link above ).

Comparing me to Corey again, very well, thank you and talking of 'Event' , my own moderator rights ( within my sub board ) were suspended on the Day Corey Good brought in the 'prophecy' of Simon Parkes 'ship are soon going to land all over the earth' ,
all in bold red letters, that was months before his interview here was due and on the way out but this is the style he carried on with ,

relying on Bill Ryan , Christine and the Mods full support . He would basically just dump and things were being done .
If only I happened to confront his fanatic sense of prediction and alarms accompanying it .

My testimony has always been very peaceful, so are the Beings and civilisation i/we come from,
I can imagine how it does not fit with your current philosophical dogma but in this case, you are using dirty means and somehow , you seem to be too certain that your means can meet their ends here which rises further suspicions with me.


I will let this again, with Bill and the forum. Even though, as anyone else who came here with dignity and ability to explain their statements to some level at least ,
and made self available to your 'questioning' which you were not part of in fact,
as i'm aware,
you've only come to attack what you perceive as weaknesses , and the way you perceive them .
I've not noticed even one honest, caring question from you over the years . But tons of bubbling negation and perversive love of confrontation that could , in your own terms , continue ad nauseam ( literally ) and that makes me nothing else than victim of bullying from the first sentence you ever wrote,
with hope that you 're right there.

You can talk down this way to another girl or young lady who will be eager to hear of your explanations but don't be so naive I'm telling you ,
to think you really do know so much . And especially, trying to make your point with an ET in whom you don't believe is daunting exercise .


I would like to clean this thread from my 3 posts and your likewise as the arrogant argumentation and talk down have no place here,

are really not helpful to the collective , the topic, least myself.


:coffee:

[araucaria]

Dear Agape
I caught your initial response, which was just a flash of anger, and had obviously subsided a little by the time you changed your post. I am sorry you are so very angry, but, although I may have been the trigger on this occasion, I do not believe I am the cause of it.

My posts are perfectly on topic on the subject of the witness testimony from Peru in the OP. Yours was a little inconsistent. You point out a potential problem that witness testimony can pose by quoting your own witness testimony as if it poses no problems of its own.

You say my ideas about Saturn are only a theory: too true. I have a healthy scepticism for that theory myself, and will be happy to ditch it just as soon as I find a better one. But this must apply to your witness testimony too. I am glad to see you are taking questions, but if you are not answering the hard questions that might upset your theory, preferring to see them as a personal attack, then you are not showing the healthy scepticism you require of others. This is indeed a health issue: among other benefits, it prevents anger. Far from making a personal attack, I am actually showing concern for your wellbeing.

Puzzlement and lack of understanding are a form of, maybe not disease, but at least ill-ease. Greater understanding takes us to somewhere more comfortable, which is why we are constant seekers. I imagine disease sometimes results when that process stops and we start settling for discomfort as being comfortable enough. A no longer needed crutch ends up weakening the function it was intended to strengthen; and an overused theory turns into a belief system, from a useful tool into a spanner in the works.

I got the message that you no longer wish to interact. I have had my say and have nothing more to add. Peace

Note: I wrote this before seeing your latest post, which I have not read yet. Being open-minded, I may therefore have something to add after all; but then again, I may find silence is the wiser course.

[Agape]

Dear Agape
I caught your initial response, which was just a flash of anger, and had obviously subsided a little by the time you changed your post. I am sorry you are so very angry, but, although I may have been the trigger on this occasion, I do not believe I am the cause of it.

My posts are perfectly on topic on the subject of the witness testimony from Peru in the OP. Yours was a little inconsistent. You point out a potential problem that witness testimony can pose by quoting your own witness testimony as if it poses no problems of its own.

You say my ideas about Saturn are only a theory: too true. I have a healthy scepticism for that theory myself, and will be happy to ditch it just as soon as I find a better one. But this must apply to your witness testimony too. I am glad to see you are taking questions, but if you are not answering the hard questions that might upset your theory, preferring to see them as a personal attack, then you are not showing the healthy scepticism you require of others. This is indeed a health issue: among other benefits, it prevents anger. Far from making a personal attack, I am actually showing concern for your wellbeing.

Puzzlement and lack of understanding are a form of, maybe not disease, but at least ill-ease. Greater understanding takes us to somewhere more comfortable, which is why we are constant seekers. I imagine disease sometimes results when that process stops and we start settling for discomfort as being comfortable enough. A no longer needed crutch ends up weakening the function it was intended to strengthen; and an overused theory turns into a belief system, from a useful tool into a spanner in the works.

I got the message that you no longer wish to interact. I have had my say and have nothing more to add. Peace

Note: I wrote this before seeing your latest post, which I have not read yet. Being open-minded, I may therefore have something to add after all; but then again, I may find silence is the wiser course.


But then, you don't really know how great ( or small ) my understanding is ...


:sun:


You know , I believe that you can't show everything without actually solving it . Get with on the toughest question you know that bugs you and get the answer right .
And then on to another question .
It's a work in progress . Taken my foreign evolutionary system it takes years to process certain facets of human emotional experience .

I really , am not used to talk down to people or let them on me frequently Araucaria , which is justifiable by my personal situation and basic survival instincts,

and respect i wish to held for you.

I do not ask you to either talk or not talk or avoid my input or express any stand towards it unless you know how to ask small questions before asking Big Ones.



Hope that helps :coffee::heart:

[araucaria]

Agape, if you had the great wisdom you claim, you would have the self-awareness to realize just how much of what you are telling me is actually mirror-gazing on your part. Asking small questions indeed. I once asked you a very tiny question: Why don’t you join the Here & Now thread and make small talk as part of a group – things like asking someone how old their cat is? It doesn’t get much smaller than that. Yet you are the one that cannot do that.

My questioning why your ET civilization had to be so very very old was basically another very small question. It’s like a child hearing a story beginning ‘Once upon a time, a very very long time ago...’ and asking their parent why it has to be so very very long ago. The child is not looking down on its parent, it is actually looking up and is surprised to find its very small question was so big it is too difficult to answer. One to be brushed off with an authoritarian reply like ‘Because that is how I am telling the story’. Here you are behaving like that parent; as the child, albeit by no means a naive one, I am not looking down on you at all, merely unable to look up to you the way you would like. You are looking down on me, not the other way round.

So you claim to be a scientist. A scientist has to defend her thesis to get her diploma. That means offering satisfactory answers to tough critical questions. You cannot get away with saying you are actually from an ancient civilization lightyears ahead of your examiners who simply don’t understand. If this were true, then it would make your task so much easier, you would have an answer for everything in terms they did understand. Take the reported ET entity Ra in the Law of One: they actually insist on a Q&A format and give straight answers to just about any question that the scientist Don Elkins can throw at them. The material is probably as good as the questions: if it has flaws, this is doubtless because the questions weren’t sophisticated and penetrating enough – but then a scientist can also earn a degree for an inadequate thesis with adequate answers to inadequate questions. Today with over 30 years’ hindsight, we can think of such questions, so the Ra material also has to be taken with a degree of scepticism. Likewise peer-reviewed science remains falsifiable even after initial acceptance. Hence the Ra protocol is a machine for raising questions through open-ended answers.

However, I can understand your unwillingness/inability to follow such a protocol, because it was all of 80 million years ago that you were one of the great god-giants that became invisible to your own people. By your own admission those powers were gradually lost; meaning that you are now for the most part simply Eva Zemanova, an ordinary young woman who had a somewhat extraordinary psychic experience – I say somewhat, because such experiences are becoming fairly common. I suggest you get over it, one very good reason being that if your tale were true, you are telling us that you are/were one of the original elite who have been oppressing this planet and its people for thousands if not millions of years – eighty million you say. They/you are the ones who have been foisting religion and other bedtime fairytales on us, and we are no longer listening. I don’t necessarily mean you personally, but those you are identifying with and speaking for. But if you won’t step back from this, then you become personally responsible.

As you say, no evil was originally involved: that is true at least when the parent-child relationship evolves in a timely manner into a relationship between adults. I am not talking down to you if I say that I have had the human experience of this and you have not: it’s a simple fact. There comes a stage where notions of big and small are gradually reversed, which may involve a little conflict, unless it is tempered by gratitude on both sides.
And I am not talking down to you if I ask one more simple question, actually just reformulate the previous one. What are the odds of a civilization that has lasted for eons upon eons having as you say its one-and-only navigational failure in this part of the universe, and then having a second accident upon landing on Earth? Science tells us Earth is nothing special; this seems to be telling us it is almost infinitely special and different from the rest of the universe. It is not a simple question at all because the answer would be more nuanced...

I only ask because the Saturn theory as developed by David Talbott and extended by myself (which you unscientifically dismiss without so much as a glance) has an answer to the complex question: in binary star systems, which are the rule rather than the exception, accidents happen all the time; whenever the stars pass at their closest, at least in the early stages, an extreme outer planet may get shaved off and possibly captured by the companion star and placed in an uncomfortable orbit and a difficult new situation. In other words, the main features of your Bodhgaya event are obtainable very easily and very frequently and very locally, with no interstellar travel involved, just a bit of planet-hopping. So the same question can be reformulated once again: why would Occam’s razor not apply?

I am reminded of SF writer Damon Knight’s critique of A. E. van Vogt and his ‘cosmic chess game’: he "is not a giant as often maintained. He's only a pygmy who has learned to operate an overgrown typewriter." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damon_Knight
This is only partly valid as criticism, because it does allow for overgrown typewriters and pint-sized operators.
Resolving the dialectical relationship of big and small, i.e. learning perspective, is something I keep coming back to, notably in this post and the following one, both of which you thanked:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?83133-The-Corey-Goode-affair-various-updates-from-David-Wilcock&p=988290&viewfull=1#post988290

Feel free not to answer my big/small questions; they are rhetorical questions to no one in particular and each person may find their own answers. Their value is in the asking.

[Agape]

It's what I remember about the times our ET ancestors came here (http://www.ufocasebook.com/etoriginofmankind.html) , millions of years ago ( who knows what time was it exactly ) , living in kind of 'twilight zone' for very long time .
It does not mean there was no Sun or anything remotely close to the idea , it just means the light was very dim and earthly atmosphere was obscured
and the same phenomenon may have occurred many times later as well , perhaps following some major cataclysm.


I would like to return this thread to its topic and memory of our ancestors . The above is all I've said and wanted to share at that moment .

It has completely different meaning to me than you seem to be deriving here for yourself Araucaria and it's being as respectful as rushing to a room where someone meditates to 'wake them up for argument' , tell them how useless their meditation is , explaining it changed nothing in course of human history over past million or two years and inviting them instead to 'Disneyland' .
We're coming from almost polar perspectives here and my only fault here , it seems , was posting after you .

I don't understand how could or can someone being 'confrontational' about big topics like this or why do you think or intend to hurt my awareness.

I've hoped quietly that someone would clear the mess we've both now created of this thread topic and the debate can continue quietly or otherwise between those who want to debate it.

I don't want the 'tune of yours' that you've applied to me with great gusto number of times in past so I remember it too well, in my head, responding to every A with B , with sarcasm . Wise people do not do that, indeed.


While I chose to retreat to the memory of my ancestors here, you chose to confront me with the memory of worst this world has to offer . So forgive if I don't thank you for that .

And I will keep asking Bill and the team for assistance if you continue making drama of my little post here


:cry:

Please don't be surprised I'm not willing to read you, answer to you and argue ad nauseam.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


agape, if you had the great wisdom you claim, you would have the self-awareness to realize just how much of what you are telling me is actually mirror-gazing on your part. Asking small questions indeed. I once asked you a very tiny question: Why don’t you join the here & now thread and make small talk as part of a group – things like asking someone how old their cat is? It doesn’t get much smaller than that. Yet you are the one that cannot do that.





i have asked for the previous postings of yours being confrontational and off topic where i am concerned being deleted together with my replies.
I am not coming to distribute or receive insults here and argue because 'you desire an argument'.


You miss my meaning in just about everything, including suggestions for 'small talk' .

[Agape]

There's yet whole another meaning to the topic for me here and there may be as many interesting insights as there are people coming around here , I suppose.

I for one love caves , have visited many curious cave dwellings since I was a kid, according to my mum I was even nearly conceived in place with caves far away in mountains , I searched for 'good cave' to stay in Himalayas for many years
but so called 'good caves' are hard to find ( those that are warm, have water spring nearby , safe and well shielded from weather , out of reach to tourists and so forth ).
There are many beautiful and interesting cave dwellings around the globe ,
some of which have 'special energies', partially for being underground , closer to the tectonic activity under our feet ,
some have high prevalence of certain elements that can be healing or dangerous to life , gas vents, mineral water springs , redundant life forms that exist only due to that particular caves environment ,
not to mention remains of civilisations some of our remote ancestors built in caves and so forth .

I find this very interesting topic and hope it serves many peaceful purposes .

If it all somehow irks somebody I suggest , another topic or poster may be equally good for you.
If it's me who gets on your nerves, I suggest reporting me to the Bill of rights&freedoms here and the MOD team and starting a protocolar proceeding where you explain your stand fully and those good people will explain why do they have me here at all or where I'm permitted to post and what .

I'm not you. You can copy my words which is superficial but under no circumstances can we copy each others mindset .
Unless you can get over what your mum and teachers told you to be the 'correct version of yours' is the only good you that exists and you never happened to grow over yourself, the society of yours, culture or not , towards seeing world that is otherwise invisible we are each feeling, thinking , and discussing different ways.


What's so wrong about it is that I sense you actually enjoy 'lulling me out' to where you think you can attack me by 'scientific means' known to yourself .

In science too , ethical principles should stay unharmed . Sacrificing thousands rabbits for saving one kid may be 'means justifying its ends' but I don't see who are you saving here .
It hurts me more for the sheer stupidity of your mind process I'm unable to link to mentally so it's more like , poking to the eye of 'blind mole rat' really .

The fact you disbelieve that your 'subject' here feels pain from those attempts or has any valid memory and still feeling entitled to discuss how you doubt my honesty
brings things exactly to the edge where the 'blind mole rat' wants to go back to its cave .


:p:confused:

[Agape]

However, I can understand your unwillingness/inability to follow such a protocol, because it was all of 80 million years ago that you were one of the great god-giants that became invisible to your own people. By your own admission those powers were gradually lost; meaning that you are now for the most part simply Eva Zemanova, an ordinary young woman who had a somewhat extraordinary psychic experience – I say somewhat, because such experiences are becoming fairly common. I suggest you get over it, one very good reason being that if your tale were true, you are telling us that you are/were one of the original elite who have been oppressing this planet and its people for thousands if not millions of years – eighty million you say. They/you are the ones who have been foisting religion and other bedtime fairytales on us, and we are no longer listening. I don’t necessarily mean you personally, but those you are identifying with and speaking for. But if you won’t step back from this, then you become personally responsible.



You are wrong on every account . The 'gods' , the 'giants' , quote 'my name' ( WHY NOT YOURS IF YOU ARE SO IDENTIFIED WITH YOUR NAME ? )

life i do not live, mentality i don't share , what on Earth do you think you do about me ?

Did you ever ask me for interview ?

Did you speak to me as other people do , with dignity of their own ? In private usually but what you're attempting here equals creating PUBLIC SHAMING .

Are you warning me to stop posting here and stop being me because it's all about your opinion, your behaviour and you personally, can't find any use or way of me than to continue the PUBLIC SCAM ?

Yes I need to carry passport with name that's pretty ordinary, in other cultures people call me their own names, i had interesting life on many levels of exploratory , spiritual and semi-professional experience and posting here on open board has always been done with some level of cautions and discretion that you're ,
in your 'John ANON' cloak, without introducing yourself to me ever , somehow rather reluctant to respect .

You're in fact 'welcoming the confrontation' because it's the ordinary thing that people are fed up with for most and because it disturbs me and everybody else .

Prove me otherwise .

I've had many peaceful and beautiful discussions with people on many topics, in private, and all over the years but minding you , we all really prefer and respect a level of decency that's somehow unfitting your public martyrdom here.
In fact, you're accusing me of being 'you' . So I think, this discussion from 'you' is breaching not only my personal boundaries,
deprives the term 'intelligence' of its meaning but continues rising red flag about your motivations here.

If you are so silly to need to be explained every word, every sentence and discuss it twice or pretend you need to ,
it makes little if any difference to me. I find that exceedingly disturbing because how silly it is,
discussing big topics with small minded individuals .


:facepalm:

[Agape]

Doing the math is awkward because you don’t say how long a year is. For the sake of argument, and since you are comparing to earth time, let’s say it is 365 days of 24 hours, or 8760 hours, like ours. Hence 20 years is 175,200 hours. That would make one ET year 8760*175,200 earth years, or a little over 1.5 billion years. Hence it comes as no surprise to learn that a civilization claiming to be millions of billions (quadrillions) of years old is ‘not at all affected by any local happenings’ in a universe thought (doubtless mistakenly) to be only a few billion years old. (The one possible exception being the loss of one of its ships here, with 10,000 souls on board). More to the point, on a planet that has only just discovered space weather and is only beginning to think of interstellar and intergalactic weather, local humans, who are by most accounts a fairly young race, likewise understandably feel not at all affected by happenings so remote in space and time. The actual situation however is much ‘worse’ than this if we factor in your suggestion that older planets rotate more slowly. If that is the case, then your home planet’s day and year would be much longer, meaning that in earth years we are talking about a universe not quadrillions but quintillions of years old.



There is no simple maths like that . You have to calculate transition of 2 ( two ) non-linear time-space systems .

The event horizon 80 million years is like an imaginary number . It's what i've somehow calculated/got at the end of the time tunnel processing .

Two non-linear time-space systems that evolved billions of years apart, that's correct .

Our days may have lasted more than 60 of our hours . Our year may have lasted 360 of our days .

We knew how to construct artificial space-time field utilised in space travel .

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll256/PaldenLhamo/hqdefault_zps3q11biwl.jpg (http://s290.photobucket.com/user/PaldenLhamo/media/hqdefault_zps3q11biwl.jpg.html)


In maths I think if we would try to compare two non-linear systems you'd have to set the core value to either zero or infinite ,
which would only predict hypothetical parallel dimensions that never meet or 0 for those who are subsidiary to each other.

However and because we've experienced the 'touch-down' here in real time , with time convergence starting at differential of 1 hour of ours /20 years of this planet ,
and gradually degrading with curvature nearing zero ,

we're somewhere on that landslide and the numbers have to be calculated as 'fluid'.

With that , we may be also reaching 'future horizon of events' faster than was predictable at the beginning .

Which may be both good and bad news , depending on where we are . So there's definitely an option for re-calculation.


It's probable that someone did such a maths already, see here :

http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip/journal/jmp/35/7/10.1063/1.530426

Nonlinear systems related to an arbitrary space–time dependence of the spectral transform
Jérôme Leon1



A general algebraic analytic scheme for the spectral transform of solutions of nonlinear evolution equations is proposed. This allows one to give the general nonlinear evolution corresponding to an arbitrary time and space dependence of the spectral transform (in general nonlinear and with nonanalytic dispersion relations). The main theorem is that the compatibility conditions always give a true nonlinear evolution because it can always be written as an identity between polynomials in the spectral variable k. This general result is then used to obtain first a method to generate a new class of solutions to the nonlinear Schrödinger equation, and second to construct the spectral transform theory for solving initial‐boundary value problems for resonant wave‐coupling processes (like self‐induced transparency in two‐level media, or stimulated Brillouin scattering of plasma waves, or else stimulated Raman scattering in nonlinear optics, etc.).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minkowski_space

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Minkowski_space


Observers time point ( wiki source , Minkowski space ) :

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll256/PaldenLhamo/Lorentz_transform_of_world_line_zps5m0sx4dw.gif (http://s290.photobucket.com/user/PaldenLhamo/media/Lorentz_transform_of_world_line_zps5m0sx4dw.gif.html)


he momentarily co-moving inertial frames along the trajectory ("world line") of a rapidly accelerating observer (center). The vertical direction indicates time, while the horizontal indicates distance, the dashed line is the spacetime of the observer. The small dots are specific events in spacetime. Note how the momentarily co-moving inertial frame changes when the observer accelerates.



Vectors v = (ct, x, y, z) = (ct, r) are classified according to the sign of c2t2 - r2. A vector is timelike if c2t2 > r2, spacelike if c2t2 < r2, and null or lightlike if c2t2 = r2. This can be expressed in terms of the sign of η(v,v) as well, but depends on the signature. The classification of any vector will be the same in all frames of reference, because of the invariance of the interval.

The set of all null vectors at an event[nb 5] of Minkowski space constitutes the light cone of that event. Given a timelike vector v, there is a worldline of constant velocity associated with it, represented by a straight line in a Minkowski diagram.

Once a direction of time is chosen,[nb 6] timelike and null vectors can be further decomposed into various classes. For timelike vectors one has

future-directed timelike vectors whose first component is positive, (tip of vector located in absolute future in figure) and
past-directed timelike vectors whose first component is negative (absolute past).
Null vectors fall into three classes:

the zero vector, whose components in any basis are (0,0,0,0) (origin),
future-directed null vectors whose first component is positive (upper light cone), and
past-directed null vectors whose first component is negative (lower light cone).
Spacelike vectors are in elsewhere. The terminology stems from the fact that spacelike separated events are connected by vectors requiring faster-than-light travel, and so cannot possibly influence each other. Together with spacelike and lightlike vectors there are 7 classes in all.

An orthonormal basis for Minkowski space necessarily consists of one timelike and three spacelike unit vectors. If one wishes to work with non-orthonormal bases it is possible to have other combinations of vectors. For example, one can easily construct a (non-orthonormal) basis consisting entirely of null vectors, called a null basis. Over the reals, if two null vectors are orthogonal (zero Minkowski tensor value), then they must be proportional. However, allowing complex numbers, one can obtain a null tetrad, which is a basis consisting of null vectors, some of which are orthogonal to each other.

Vector fields are called timelike, spacelike or null if the associated vectors are timelike, spacelike or null at each point where the field is defined.

[Agape]

Possibly related : the Toba eruption (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toba_catastrophe_theory)


The Toba supereruption was a supervolcanic eruption that occurred some time between 69,000 and 77,000 years ago at the site of present-day Lake Toba (Sumatra, Indonesia). It is one of the Earth's largest known eruptions. The Toba catastrophe theory holds that this event caused a global volcanic winter of 6–10 years and possibly a 1,000-year-long cooling episode.

In 1993, science journalist Ann Gibbons suggested a link between the eruption and a population bottleneck in human evolution, and Michael R. Rampino of New York University and Stephen Self of the University of Hawaii at Manoa gave support to the idea. In 1998, the bottleneck theory was further developed by Stanley H. Ambrose of the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. Both the link and global winter theories are highly controversial.[2][3]

The Toba event is the most closely studied super eruption

The Toba eruption or Toba event occurred at the present location of Lake Toba, in Indonesia, about 75000±900 years Before Present (BP).[7][8] This eruption was the last and largest of four eruptions of Toba during the Quaternary period, and is also recognized from its diagnostic horizon of ashfall, the youngest Toba tuff (YTT).[9][10] It had an estimated volcanic explosivity index of 8 (the maximum), or a magnitude ≥ M8; it made a sizable contribution to the 100×30 km caldera complex.[11] Dense-rock equivalent (DRE) estimates of eruptive volume for the eruption vary between 2000 km3 and 3000 km3 – the most common DRE estimate is 2800 km3 (about 7×1015 kg) of erupted magma, of which 800 km3 was deposited as ash fall.[12]

The erupted mass was 100 times greater than that of the largest volcanic eruption in recent history, the 1815 eruption of Mount Tambora in Indonesia, which caused the 1816 "Year Without a Summer" in the Northern Hemisphere.[13] Toba's erupted mass deposited an ash layer about 15 centimetres (6 inches) thick over the whole of South Asia. A blanket of volcanic ash was also deposited over the Indian Ocean, and the Arabian Sea and South China Sea.[14] Deep-sea cores retrieved from the South China Sea have extended the known reach of the eruption, suggesting that the 2800 km3 calculation of the erupted mass is a minimum value or even an underestimation.






Genetic bottleneck theory[edit]
The Toba eruption has been linked to a genetic bottleneck in human evolution about 50,000 years ago,[33][34] which may have resulted from a severe reduction in the size of the total human population due to the effects of the eruption on the global climate.[35]

According to the genetic bottleneck theory, between 50,000 and 100,000 years ago, human populations sharply decreased to 3,000–10,000 surviving individuals.[36][37] It is supported by genetic evidence suggesting that today's humans are descended from a very small population of between 1,000 and 10,000 breeding pairs that existed about 70,000 years ago.[38]

Proponents of the genetic bottleneck theory (including Robock) suggest that the Toba eruption resulted in a global ecological disaster, including destruction of vegetation along with severe drought in the tropical rainforest belt and in monsoonal regions. For example, a 10-year volcanic winter triggered by the eruption could have largely destroyed the food sources of humans and caused a severe reduction in population sizes.[24] Τhese environmental changes may have generated population bottlenecks in many species, including hominids;[39] this in turn may have accelerated differentiation from within the smaller human population. Therefore, the genetic differences among modern humans may reflect changes within the last 70,000 years, rather than gradual differentiation over millions of years.[40]

Other research has cast doubt on a link between Toba and a genetic bottleneck. For example, ancient stone tools in southern India were found above and below a thick layer of ash from the Toba eruption and were very similar across these layers, suggesting that the dust clouds from the eruption did not wipe out this local population.[41][42][43] Additional archaeological evidence from Southern and Northern India also suggests a lack of evidence for effects of the eruption on local populations, leading the authors of the study to conclude, "many forms of life survived the supereruption, contrary to other research which has suggested significant animal extinctions and genetic bottlenecks".[44] However, evidence from pollen analysis has suggested prolonged deforestation in South Asia, and some researchers have suggested that the Toba eruption may have forced humans to adopt new adaptive strategies, which may have permitted them to replace Neanderthals and "other archaic human species".[45] This has been challenged by evidence for the presence of Neanderthals in Europe and Homo floresiensis in Southeastern Asia who survived the eruption by 50,000 and 60,000 years, respectively.[46]

Additional caveats to the Toba-induced bottleneck theory include difficulties in estimating the global and regional climatic impacts of the eruption and lack of conclusive evidence for the eruption preceding the bottleneck.[47] Furthermore, genetic analysis of Alu sequences across the entire human genome has shown that the effective human population size was less than 26,000 at 1.2 million years ago; possible explanations for the low population size of human ancestors may include repeated population bottlenecks or periodic replacement events from competing Homo subspecies

[MorningFox]

Trees need sunlight to grow, grass needs sunlight to grow, the flora and fauna need sunlight ... the sun is the first component to forming a solar system, its enormous and far reaching gravitational arms bind everything together... sorry but no way there was a planet before a sun ...

Even if there was some stray body floating through the void (which I suppose could happen under certain conditions but would still need an original star to form) it'd be crazy to think it'd be able to encounter a new solar system and enter a stable, "normal" orbit.

..but you're still thinking in your limited human terms (which of course no one can be blamed for). Who knows what utter possibilities for intelligence exist and what it would or wouldn't need to survive.

It's unfathomable... you can't just brush ghostrider's suggestion off simply because your limited psyche can't understand it. I tend to agree with ghostrider, it's more than possible.

[Agape]

The weird situation around the planet predicts ...

Milky Way no longer visible to one third of humanity, light pollution atlas shows (https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/jun/10/milky-way-no-longer-visible-to-one-third-of-humanity-light-pollution)

The New World Atlas of Artificial Sky Brightness (http://cires.colorado.edu/artificial-sky)


Quote/ It has inspired astronomers, artists, musicians and poets but the Milky Way could become a distant memory for much of humanity, a new global atlas of light pollution suggests.

The study reveals that 60% of Europeans and almost 80% of North Americans cannot see the glowing band of our galaxy because of the effects of artificial lighting, while it is imperceptible to the entire populations of Singapore, Kuwait and Malta.

Overall, the Milky Way is no longer visible to more than one third of the world’s population.

Lead author Fabio Falchi from the Light Pollution Science and Technology Institute in Italy said the situation was a “cultural loss of unprecedented magnitude.”

Chris Elvidge of the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration and a co-author of the study, added that the times he has seen the Milky Way have been magical experiences.

“Through our technology we’ve cut off that possibility for large numbers of people for multiple generations now,” he said. “We’ve lost something - but how do we place value on it?”

Described by John Milton as “a broad and ample road whose dust is gold, and pavement stars,” the Milky Way is so obscured by the effects of modern lighting that it is no longer visible to 77% of the UK population, with the galaxy masked from view across nearly 14% of the country, including regions stretching from London to Liverpool and Leeds.

Further afield, areas around the cities of Hong Kong, Beijing and a large stretch of the East Coast of America are among those where a glimpse of the galactic band is out of the question - a situation also found across much of Qatar, the Netherlands and Israel. In Belgium, it cannot be seen in 51% of the country.

“Humanity has enveloped our planet in a luminous fog that prevents most of Earth’s population from having the opportunity to observe our galaxy,” the authors write.



“Generations to come will never see that beauty”

We are here on planet Earth but we live in a huge cosmos, and its one of the things that links us to our position in the universe. And so it is wonderful to see it. I think by looking up at the stars we have endeavoured to do so many things, we’ve sent probes to Pluto and beyond, and if we lose contact with that I think we lose some of our ability to dream and to aspire. It starts with the Milky Way but where will it end?

I spent a wonderful six months working at a telescope in Chile, at the Gemini telescope, and there we could actually see [the Milky Way] - it did look like a path across the sky. It has inspired songs, it has inspired people to great endeavours and so I think the more light pollution there is the more we miss out on that, and the generations to come will never see that beauty.

Maggie Aderin-Pocock, space scientist and presenter of the Sky at Night


“I am perhaps more inspired by the Milky Way than any artist who has ever lived”
For me the Milky Way has been an unfailing source of inspiration and wonder, as basic component of my identity as the fact that I live on Earth in our Solar System.

I have been a passionate evangelist for the galaxy, and am perhaps more inspired by the Milky Way than any artist who has ever lived.

I deplore the barriers we have erected that block the view for most of Earth’s people. Nothing can clear the mind, elevate the soul, or inspire curiosity more than the Milky Way.

Jon Lomberg, artist and principal artistic collaborator of astronomer Carl Sagan


“It’s important that it’s not just astronomers who care about this”

The night sky is the most universally-shared part of our environment. It’s been gazed and wondered at, throughout history, by people in all parts of the world. It’s indeed a sad deprivation that many young people have never seen a clear starry sky. And it’s important that it’s not just astronomers who care about this.

I’m not an ornithologist, but I’d feel deprived if songbirds disappeared from my garden. Likewise, there would surely be widespread sadness if light pollution screened out our celestial environment from ever more of us.

Lord Martin Rees, astronomer royal


“The Milky Way is our link to the Other”

The Milky Way is our link to the Other: to the lost civilisations out there in the galaxy, so far away and so profligate that they appear not as stars, but as a single brush stroke of watery light. When we lose the Milky Way, we sever the umbilical cord that connects us to the wider universe.

Ben Miller, actor, comedian and author



“We, in our ceaseless dash to make money and cover the world with concrete, have lost this priceless treasure”

It’s not just the Milky Way [people] can’t see. Who in the 21st Century has ever seen the Zodiacal Light - that beautiful cone of dusty light that can even outshine the Milky Way, a thrill to see if you are lucky enough to have dark skies where you live. And probably about 10,000 stars that the three Wise Men on their way to Bethlehem would have been able to see are all invisible to us in the cities, where we are swamped by mainly unnecessary stray light. From my roof in Kensington on a clear night I can see roughly 30 stars - it’s a tragedy, really. Along with all the other excesses of what we call civilisation, our first-hand awareness of the cosmos has been forgotten.

We are so fortunate to be living on a planet that gives us a view, not only of our own Solar System companions: the planets, comets, etc - but also of countless stars in our own Milky Way Galaxy. Because of this we’ve been able make the foundations of cosmology, discovering the very nature of the vast universe around us. From our position out on a spiral arm of the Galaxy, we see both inwards towards the centre of the Galaxy and outwards towards its edge. The billions of stars in the Galactic plane show up as a milky light which has enchanted people from the dawn of history. But we, in our ceaseless dash to make money and cover the world with concrete, have lost this priceless treasure. Along with almost all our wildlife, our contact with Nature, and our humanity.

Brian May, astrophysicist and lead guitarist of Queen




“We should act to protect our ability to enjoy the universe”

The Milky Way evokes a feeling of awe when I see it. It always has and it always will. This is partly because it is rare to see now due to light pollution. It’s analogous to spotting a rare bird in your back garden. But I have many memories of seeing this band of hazy light from the dark skies of my village when I was younger. To be able to see the collective light from the stars making up our own galaxy gives a tantalising sense of the enormity of our universe and the structures within it. That so few people are now able to see now the Milky Way is a great loss. We are forcing ourselves to look inward and not outward. And just as we bemoan the loss of our countryside we should act to protect our ability to enjoy the universe. If we don’t, its inspirational value will be untapped and a site of scientific interest will be rendered accessible only using professional telescopes on mountains or on spacecraft.

Lucie Green, Professor of Physics at University College, London and presenter of the Sky at Night



I think that's significant feature of our otherwise featureless times ... the loss of humanity we all have mentioned at least one thousand times ,
and not being able to see stars at night . Everyone watching their bright screens instead, high on certainty ..
even while reading some of those great comments, it reminds me again and again about things we've learned to repeat .

Things like 'great' . Or 'absolutely' . Claims of someones elses or our work being of 'timeless significance' and 'rock statement' and there are so many , countless of them everywhere around ..
including the media companies advertisements . The travel agencies advertisements promising to take you to pristine and heavenly shores where you can volunteer for ever ( two weeks for $2000 , volunteering , no joke ).
The endless conspiracy themes and ufology theorists who are now becoming 'absolutely bullet proof' .


One day , people being born in one of the worlds cities under a spectre of colourful lights may start wondering about there being any stars out there at all or is it all being a cinema show .

As a matter of allegory , many do already ''question everything'' , especially the very existence of 'sanity' , 'freedom', or 'authenticity' among all those matters frequently questioned in realms of artificial joys and sorrows .

What is indeed , more valuable than clear and open sky views and clarity of your own, unsupported perception compared to million of other values that have to stand supported by someone elses views ,
values that can be bought and sold , names that have to be given and registered , identity borrowed from kings and queens ,
how does it all compare to views of the skies and views of your own ..


What's important in life, dear Araucaria and the rest , can't be lost , forgotten or stolen . Knowing what one should know about himself is not a cheap trinket to exchange for 'names and honours' and knowing what lies beyond the Earth is not 'forbidden fruit' to touch .
All I've ever lost and will keep losing can be worldliness and labels someone else plastered on my back . The worldliness that's bound to be lost .


The planet is a globe .. and so all we say, is bound to look upside down to people in Australia and mirror-like to those behind the globe and like frozen icicles from the North Pole .


:bearhug:


P.S. : You can travel the Universe with 'Your Honest Opinion'. But, I bet sure once alone out there in Space for couple of thousand years you'll prefer your Knowledge from Honest Opinions.
That's about 'internet relativism' ruining our lives and communication .. ,
it's how culture is NOT a language and language is not a loney culture ,
it's about unfitting perceptions that can't help individuals and our shared resistance to change.
It's all about the automatic , insentient , life consuming matrix .. where someone , somewhere , got me wrong on the square 2 , necessarily .
No jumps from the square 2 for 7 rounds . No jumps over the Q&Ks heads . Quit the game ET !!!


:waving:

[Agape]

I suggest you get over it, one very good reason being that if your tale were true, you are telling us that you are/were one of the original elite who have been oppressing this planet and its people for thousands if not millions of years – eighty million you say. They/you are the ones who have been foisting religion and other bedtime fairytales on us, and we are no longer listening. I don’t necessarily mean you personally, but those you are identifying with and speaking for. But if you won’t step back from this, then you become personally responsible.

I can't believe my own eyes for how wrong did you interpret me or my testimony and that all, without asking single pertinent question .

I sense misogyny in you, sorry Araucaria. Some kind of hatred stuck in you , you're all trying to get rid of now by beaming it to space.
It's what I see is /was happening within this ( broader ) community for long time, accepting testimonies of people that are not more than nightmares .
Full of fear , fight against 'monsters', in this world and beyond.

I guess the 'nightmare' crosses a critical mass from when you're unable to discriminate any longer it's not any sort of 'objective' but your nightmare.
The threshold of hysteria when you are cynically yelling at me to 'get rid of it' . You're not either the first or the last but I can calmly tell you that this is a part of your social hysteria .

I wonder if you'd have better chat with Barry King because he actually, fits more to the ;human paradigm' as you're describing it to me and 'leaving his experiences behind' and having good human family of his own is important .

I can't even guess how did you get back to me with all these awful out-of-court questions after 2 years, yet totally convinced you're hitting nail on head ?

Hit someone you can, walls, nails , your saviour on cross ..

just killing a person does not kill ideas .

It does not annihilate their life , 42 years of human experience , beyond that .. and what's more pertinent to here, it allows no information or wisdom share at all.

That's why I've reported those posts as I can't still believe how this forum ( or some people ) got me wrong ,

much of the interpretation may go back to Barry who has his own way of being, seeing and handling problems ,

unfortunately for us he's called his 'disclosures' a quit , due to prolonged health and family situation .

I do not feel fine about your hostility towards me or thinking either of us are living some sort of 'story' .
I have been quite strict with myself on not doing 'just that' , I do not maintain continuos record of me anywhere and never did .

You do sound like a smart person but the ways you've used to 'stand me up' here repeatedly suggest I should not trust you, myself and the forum ..
which is after all, what we both know .

So also , I'll better stop here before I'd tell some more truth .


:pray: