Star Trek / End of money for society

[bluekungfoo]

I have either seen or read about the concept that Star Trek has in regards to a no money society...

An it was something to it wasn't needed any more not because the government was paying for everything for everyone, but because society started to value achievements that contributed to everyone or the planet in general, and in turn a person would gain prestige , notoriety , ... and perhaps a kind of bartering was established on top of this...

So I guess a question is how does a community begin to establish such a non money based system, and one thing I remembered , that I read here before and have seen on tv, is Free stands, now the one I saw here was based on an honor system which did ask for money ( pay what you feel it is worth ) in Alaska they in parts of Alaska any how in small remote communities they have free shacks , where items are stored that are still of use, and all that is asked is to leave something behind that someone cause use as well.

The obvious barrier to such an evolved world, is our own governments and those who need their money to maintain their power.

It isn't an unachievable idea, it wouldn't lead to a lazy society, because people would still need to work, to be apart of society , contributing in any way possible...

any thoughts,

any ideas or other reasons why it cant work or might not, and then possible solutions to make it work.

I am not suggesting a perfect society that star trek fantasizes , but a tangible way to put an end to living based on money.

[KiwiElf]

Really good question; the concept featured in quite a few episodes of ST-TOS & movies and ST-TNG but it was never really explained in any of the incarnations of TREK as to HOW they achieved it or how it really worked? ie how do you acquire/buy or sell "stuff"? How does an "economy" work? How do you make things or get "paid" for your efforts, labour or services?

How do you get rid of human greed?

[KiwiElf]

Here's some Trekker Links (which attempt) to explain it (and I'm none the wiser! ;)):

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o_VSIdAx4PQ


http://kernelmag.dailydot.com/features/report/4849/a-guide-to-star-trek-economics/


A Guide to Star Trek economics
By Greg Stevens on September 4th, 2013

In the movie Star Trek: First Contact, Jean-Luc Picard, Captain of the starship Enterprise, is asked how much it cost to build his impressive space-faring vessel. “The economics of the future are somewhat different,” he replies. “You see, money doesn’t exist in the twenty-fourth century … The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity.”

Less eloquently, Captain Kirk implies the same conclusion in a comment to Commander Spock in the movie Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, after they have travelled back in time to the twentieth century: “They’re still using money,” he says. “We need to get some.”

Across the Star Trek franchise, from the original series and movies to the various spin-offs and reincarnations, the precise nature of twenty-fourth century economics is never quite pinned down. In some speeches, characters wax eloquent about the fact that in the future basic needs like food and shelter are “not an issue”, so that people do not have to work for money.

Yet in other stories, plots revolve around debt, the cost of repairs and gambling. There are times when “Starfleet credits” are mentioned, and of course alien cultures that they encounter have their own currencies and rules. So how exactly does the economy in the twenty-fourth century world of Star Trek operate?

There is a relatively mundane way to interpret the famous line “money doesn’t exist in the twenty-fourth century”: humanity has simply gotten rid of currency, but still has some kind of electronic accounting system: a digital cash-equivalent.

The idea of a cashless society, in the sense that all transactions are electronic, has been a common one in science fiction since at least the 1970s. Robert Heinlein foresaw it in I Will Fear No Evil (1970), and John Brunner wrote about it in The Shockwave Rider (1975). In both William Gibson’s Count Zero (1986) and Pat Cadigan’s Fools (1992), cash still exists in a technical sense, but only criminals use it.

In Harry Harrison’s The Stainless Steel Rat Gets Drafted, a utopian society claims that they have done away with money, and instead people pay for things with an electronically-measured unit called a “wirr”, that represents a “work hour”. But in most practical senses, this is just another kind of “money”, as well.

Whether society has evolved into the cutting-edge world of paperless electronic credits, or deteriorated into a post-apocalyptic barter system, the fundamental economic core is still the same in all of these futuristic visions: people exchange stuff of value for other stuff of value.

Let’s be clear: that is not the utopian Star Trek vision. The Star Trek vision is much more radical.

Economics without scarcity

According to popular legend, Gene Roddenberry himself laid out very specific rules about his vision of the world in the twenty-fourth century Star Trek universe. Not only was there to be no “currency”, but there was to be no concept of accumulating wealth. People’s basic needs of food and shelter were provided for: hunger and homelessness were completely solved. People did not take on jobs in order to survive: instead, people engaged in activities to enrich themselves and the world around them.

Practically speaking, script writers could only follow this edict some of the time. Too many perennial human dilemmas and plot-lines revolve around wealth, work and payment in some form. It would be unbearably limiting to exclude them completely, across the hundreds of storylines of a decades-long, multi-faceted franchise.

The notion that eliminating material scarcity will lead people to live lives of self-improvement is psychological, not economic.

But the “pure” Roddenberry vision was articulated well from time to time, even if the details were sometimes lacking. In multiple episodes of Star Trek: The Next Generation, Jean-Luc Picard finds himself explaining that all material needs are taken care of in the twenty-fourth century, and that people are motivated by the desire to improve and enrich themselves.

The notion that eliminating material scarcity will lead people to live lives of self-improvement is psychological, not economic. Even back in the 1960s, people were familiar with Maslow’s famous “hierarchy of needs”: the theory that people have different “levels” of needs, and that a person must fulfil one level of needs before he or she can move on to addressing the next level.

According to the hierarchy of needs, a person must first deal with meeting physiological needs, such as hunger, thirst, and sleep. Once those are met, the next most pressing set of needs are safety needs: shelter, health, family, and property. Once those are met, a person can move on to love, self-esteem and finally “self-actualisation”: the enriching of the self.

Maslow’s hierarchy has long been a favorite of pop-psychologists and has been used and abused in both fiction and journalism since the 1940s. But it is fairly clear, even just from the language that he uses, that Roddenberry is inspired by conceptual framework of the hierarchy. If human endeavours are seen as advancing up this noble ladder of advancement, then any society where all of the basic low-level needs are bet would obviously be left to while away their time exclusively on love, self-esteem, and self-actualisation.

We can even speculate about how this might have happened. From the very beginning, the Star Trek universe had the “transporter”: a machine that could turn any physical object into energy, and transmit that energy (or at least information about the original pattern) across space so that energy could then be converted into that same physical form at the destination.

A natural extension of this technology is the “replicator”, which essentially is nothing more than the receiving end of a transporter. This object simply has patterns for different types of physical objects stored in memory, and can create, on demand, any physical object from energy based on these patterns.

If you can make anything you want out of energy, and you have all of the energy in the universe at your disposal, then presumably you can have any physical thing that you want.

There are details, of course. Manual labor hasn’t been eliminated, because presumably someone has to operate the replicators, and move their products from place to place. One can only assume that large objects would have to be created in parts, and then human labor would be needed to assemble those parts.

We can also assume that these people would not need to be paid to perform this labour, because they already are having all of their physical needs met. Why do they perform this labour, then? Clearly they are motivated to assemble the large object – whatever it is – out of their sense of duty and their desire to improve humanity.

It’s all very tidy. But is that how people really work?

Power-mongers and mischief-makers

In Damon Knight’s novel A is for Everything, technology exists that can duplicate any item. According to the basic rules of economics, this means that objects no longer have any “value” in the economic sense of being used to engage in buying, selling, and exchanging.

But in this world, another human psychological factor comes into play: power. Even in today’s society, money is only partially about accumulating “stuff”: it is also about exerting and maintaining power over people. If you remove physical objects as things of value that can be used to accumulate and direct power, then there has to be something else that will take their place.

When you can have anything you want, the only thing worth having is people.

In the world of A is for Everything, it is human labor. Rather than having an economy based on self-improvement and voluntary creative exploration of the universe, the economy is based on a slave trade.

Psychologically, it makes sense: when you can have anything you want, the only thing worth having is people. So those who seek out power and control still achieve it through buying and selling; they simply don’t achieve it through the buying and selling of things.

In Rudy Rucker’s novel Realware, an alien race gifts humans with a device called an “alla”, which can literally create any object out of thin air, and can also make any object disappear. The characters who make this discovery engage in a very long and complex discussion about the social and economic implications of such a device.

One of the biggest fears that comes up in this discussion is the simple fear of pranks and mischief-makers. Mischief-makers of this kind are largely absent from the Star Trek universe, but they are a very real component of humanity. One can imagine duels where one person turns a hilltop into a giant house, and his hippie neighbor turns it into a forest, back and forth all day.

What happens when a prankster decides to disappear your car while you are driving it? What happens when someone decides to create a giant ball of uranium in the town square?

To quote from Realware: “But what kind of kinky kilp would psychos make? A thousand ton turd in the middle of Union Square! A statement turd, you wave? And of course there’d be giant crucifixes everyplace. And just imagine solid, three-dimensional graffiti…. “ Another character adds: “….and you forget porno and political ads.”

In truth, this would be the reality of any economic system based on the idea that anybody can have or make anything that he wants at any time. Sure, some people will want to band together and perform great creative deeds for the betterment of humanity, in concordance with the philosophy of Star Trek’s Federation.

But some people – maybe even most people – will want a thousand-ton turd.

- See more at: http://kernelmag.dailydot.com/features/report/4849/a-guide-to-star-trek-economics/#sthash.MQgH72vt.dpuf

http://www.trekbbs.com/threads/how-does-the-federations-cashless-economy-work.149323/

http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/1151/why-and-how-did-the-star-trek-universe-evolve-to-a-cashless-commerce-less-societ

http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/6923/how-to-reconcile-the-cashless-human-federation-society-with-human-traders-and-me

http://jimmyakin.com/2005/08/the_economics_o-2.html

https://www.reddit.com/r/startrek/comments/1gh2a8/how_does_currency_work_in_the_star_trek_universe/

[apokalypse]

i always refer to Star Trek for Money less Society in regarding the future with advance tech, it's god damn frustrated that people ignore it consider it not important.

No Money society might not work in the past but with current time should able to work...in every or any of kind society people still work but for purpose of community as to help the species evolve. for instance currently i'm into programming and i could involve some sort of project like developing a system that cleaning toilet which many people doesn't want to do...at the same time i'm working and learning, my strong point is creative able to come up all sort of ideas.

i find for No Money to work is to get rid of Desire and greed as Captain Picard said and also take responsibility..these days i still don't understand why we the individual must have ownership of stuff like Cars or house? why own a car while your doesn't drive that much? for instance at i go work and my car parked for 4-5 hours which could have been used by someone else during those 4-5 hours, during those 4-5 house of you could use that car travel point A to Point B. having these thought that question always on my mind why we have such a desire obtaining stuff instead of having it as Public Ownership everyone can use.

as Robots/Automation on the rise unskilled jobs will be gone...

[KiwiElf]

And replicators that will make everything you need, including food. (But who makes & repairs the replicators???) :)

[apokalypse]

if anyone said Gene Roddenberry is one of Contactee...i can agree with that, Gene is so ahead of it's time. If human get rid of Greed within 2-3 decades we getting there. just think of current society Money is not primary focus...we still have money but it put it to where it needed like building infrastructure and so on.

question i was wondering is How? how society going to be manage?

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

If human get rid of Greed within 2-3 decades we getting there.

Greed can be a good thing - if correctly channelled, into say improvement of self, improvement of others, improvement of the world. The first step of a moneyless society is to remove the present human "incentive" as it currently stands, which is money and capitalism, and the promise of material wealth/comfort/luxury.

When all goods and services are provided for free by a caring, progressive government, materialism as an incentive shifts, and disintegrates. Then the incentive becomes self-improvement in not the material, but as Roddenberry suggests the spiritual, intellectual, philosophical and altruistic. etc..

[Valle]

They predict that it was a big economic-crises in the early 21st century, and it is the foundation for the economy in the future? :-)

Future tense 2020
Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - Past Tense,
TkTAlajIAF4

[Carmody]

Well, an expansion in energy manipulation and control (fundamental outer shift) - the requisite other part to balance it out.... is a increase in psychological stability and control (in humans) (fundamental inner shift). The fundamental outer shift will create the fundamental inner shift. The trick is to have the outer one educate the inner one... or the inner one inform and create the outer one.

Some sort of combination of the two will happen in people, to various degrees, depending on the individual. As children grow up in the given systems, we will see a fundamental system that is self stabilizing into some form of a new shape or order.

We know what this looks like, to some degree, as we have 'adults' (16~24) who have never lived without the internet as a fundamental. (a minor change that most can witness)

We also have some bad examples in how a child born into money is not the same decent balanced person as the parent, the parent who had to work their way into it. Ie, that the lessons were not there in their child's upbringing and fundamental shaping. And the child is a complete dangerous asshat.

This is part of the problem faced when infinite energy arrives on the scene with no learned and shaping backdrop in the given person, that gives them the balance to handle it and produce a new functional society around such emergent mentality.

So, we hope for the emergence of balance, but it is difficult to say what will happen. If you want to go without monetary leveraging and into infinite energies, with people as they are today, well, that's a pipe dream of sorts, as people have yet to develop with the balance within them to deal with such extremes of energy manipulation at their fingertips.

We see these sorts of issues tackled in many a science fiction scenario, and one major problem is the knowing and being in the given sci-fi exposition, is not there, the context of being is not there, no matter how hard they try. It is seen in sci-fi movies of various futures, both open and dystopian, and these expositions have to focus on how modern existing humans see and feel about such things, the context has to be wrong ....so the relational aspects function for the given current viewer, and the film or book or whatever, is financially successful. the very best in origin, concept and projection in potentials... causes them to be a failure in what they attempt to communicate, in many a case. the best ones tend to have the most limited audience, for reasons I hope can be seen, as in, it is not the common dream.

The reality is that the context in correct actual function of those states, would probably seem more alien to us than familiar. Creepy and different would probably be the mildest terms used to describe them.

We would probably look and feel like radicalized flesh eating projecting aggressive violent butchers to such people. Which in fact, we are. No one can talk about love and sharing while sinking their teeth into a ham sandwich, that's just hypocritical blindsided horse****, plain and simple.

my point, is that these sort of things, like a future with no money ...so no weighting of life by capture and manipulated egotistical values...have a fulcrum in the moment of physical interface... and the two ends must balance out, the inner and the outer must balance, otherwise ...it fails. And when we meet such peoples.. those with no money..... and it's entire world of integral aspects, we have neither the inner nor outer balance they have, within us. The two are strikingly different.

If you consider the idea of a breakaway society, an idea which is entering the modern lexicon and mainstream aspect of the alternative world of analysis (like this forum, etc)..... a breakaway society that is intelligent, militant, hierarchical, organized, strict, and extreme..well that would be, believe it or not, a NATURAL beginning point for the introduction of such free energy systems in the face of an overall alien environment, ie UFO's and so on.

Intelligence would take a logical tack, and the idea of emotions running the thought pattern would banished into a dumpster and disallowed, as such a thing is killer for attempts to playing in that environment of multi-dimensions, free energy, infinite power, alien contact, and so on.

It's about shift and continuance of humanity, plain and simple. If you are not on board, you are in the dirt, down here, like the reader of this text. Obvious logic in the face of it.

Only when that breakaway system is stable, would the average human be given a chance to play with over unity, extreme biology, and so on.

I think we are nearing that time.

[ghostrider]

The plejaren have a system where everyone works two hours each day, doing something for the good of the community they live in ... one could plant trees, work a garden, help build something, each day the individual can choose something different, after the two hours they each carry a blue card which is punched , allowing them to aquire anything they need for daily living , the rest of the day is spent on self development...

[ozmirage]

STAR TREK AND MONEY

“We don’t use money in the 24th century. Money doesn’t exist in the 24th century. The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity.”
- - - - Captain Jean-Luc Picard

>Improve the human condition for ourselves and the rest of humanity.<

They almost got it right. . .

It is true that money madness (which includes usury) is behind much pain and suffering.

The bottom line is that our reason to labor, sweat and sacrifice must change from “making money” (constrained by money madness and all that entails) to “that’s what civilized people do - be productive, trade and enjoy!”

But that does not mean to suffer inequitable trade, nor compulsory labor for the benefit of another ("to each according to his need, from each according to his ability...").

If money cured poverty, then let us eradicate poverty by crediting 22 billion billion quatloos to everyone. Everyone is equally “rich.” No one ever “needs money” again. But does that eradicate poverty? Of course not. Unless people are industriously laboring, producing, and transporting goods and services all that money is useless, worthless and meaningless. The same can be said for “redistribution of wealth” - a flawed remedy for the wrong problem.

We need prosperity - the production, trade and enjoyment of surplus usable goods and services. We don't need impediments to that prosperity.
{And money madness is an impediment in current human culture.}

The REAL function of any medium of exchange is to pass value to a future trade, when barter is insufficient. Once that trade is completed, there should not be anything of value left behind - which includes the medium of exchange.

To illustrate, two people enter into a trade, one wants food, the other wants the shiny item. The man who wants the shiny item, has no food, but a coupon for one meal at Mikki-D’s Burgers. They trade. Later, the coupon holder tenders the coupon for a meal, value is passed, and thus receives his desired meal, but the coupon is now discharged - and destroyed.

Since no one “destroys” money when the last transaction is accomplished it implies that there is still value in the money (which should have “passed value”) ... which is why it’s called money madness. The abstraction becomes the reality, supplanting real prosperity with the mindless search for “more money.” It gets so bad, that people begin to hoard their money tokens, defeating their purpose - facilitating trade - and severely impacting their economies.


Money Madness
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?89905-Money-Madness

[TODD & NORA]

..........

[Daozen]

Hello Pray Peace, Why are you mentioning a war as if it's a foregone conclusion? No one knows what will happen in this timeline. "Insiders" have been warning about an impending war for years, and it has never happened yet. Truth be told, we are in a war right now... We can create our own timeline, this is is one of the ultimate secrets of human beings.

[turiya]

Really good question; the concept featured in quite a few episodes of ST-TOS & movies and ST-TNG but it was never really explained in any of the incarnations of TREK as to HOW they achieved it or how it really worked? ie how do you acquire/buy or sell "stuff"? How does an "economy" work? How do you make things or get "paid" for your efforts, labour or services?

How do you get rid of human greed?
The below was cross-posted to another thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?90590-Transition-into-Trump)....

To move into the realm of which Star Trek exhibits, its a matter of making the transition to happen. There are some people that are working to move into this new paradigm. And to make it a reality. The transition is in process.

If you haven't heard of Walter Burien, then it would be good to pay attention to what he is attempting to bring about.


http://media1.fdncms.com/chicago/imager/cafr1/u/slideshow/1260968/wjb3_jpg-magnum.jpg
Walter Burien, CAFR-1 (http://cafr1.com/)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nG_BtGL9dOY
The following transcript starts at [2:21:33]

John B: Let me ask you a couple budgetary questions...

So, these [bankers, politicians, bureaucrats, etc.] are basically gangsters that run this, there are not going to go easy... There was quite a lot older gentleman that one time told me that the reason why those inside the courts - the judges & so forth - seem to be so lenient toward criminals is because many are criminals themselves. Well, I thought, "Whoa, that's kind of a stretch." But, the point is, these people cannot be shifted, really, can they? I mean, anything that is short of a French-style revolution, or a French Revolution-style upheaval change anything?

Walter Burien: Well, that's what its taken at times in the past. Regarding those judges, its not just so much that they're criminals themselves, they are generating revenue for their own court system by perpetuating crime, enhancing crime - getting the street criminal more pissed-off to fight back and create more crime!

John B: Sure, that's protecting their own investment is what that is.

Walter Burien: Yes. The prison systems & everything else are investment hubs & profit centers. And the average Joe-public is saying, "Oh, my god, this person did this, did that!" And they don't realize that this is all being promoted to them, spoon-fed to them, to build up the biggest profit centers possible, from the court systems, from the prison systems, and take out any opposition. You could have probably 10% of the political prisoners sitting in prison & no one would have a clue.

Yeah, when government uses its power to take you out, eliminate you or smash you, they have the ability to do so. They can destroy your business, they can destroy your family, they can destroy everything you have - I know, because I have been up against it.

But regarding the money & the wealth, keep in mind what I am saying, here, the public is not aware of what was going on, not aware of the expansion of wealth of the gross income of government. They have constantly promoted shortfalls, shortfalls!

These judges keep a very low profile on how much they're making, how much they're bringing in, and how many deals they're cutting underneath the table. And of course, effectively, its organized crime.

You know George Noory?

John B: I know of him, lol!

Walter Burien: I did a show with him over a year ago. And about 45 minutes into the discussion, I said, "George, do you know the easiest way I could steal $250,000 from you?" And his instant reply was, "Tax me." I said, "No, there is a much easier way." He says, "What's that Walter?" I said, "If you didn't know you had it in the first place."

That sunk in.

This the reason why the "Silence is Golden Rule" is played out...

Now, if you Google "Representative Hanna" + CAFR... Hanna was the Speaker of the House of Oregon back in 2010... (I guess I was having my effect) He gets up during House session, "Well, they tell us that we have $500 million for the entire year to allocate, to spend between ourselves. He goes, "What I have here in my hands is the Comprehensive Annual Financial Report (CAFR)." He has a copy of the cover-page. He goes, "In this report, it says there is $4.8 billion undesignated, unreserved, not restricted, and out of that $3.8 + billion is available for spending - NOT $500 million. So, when it comes down to whether we have this large tax increases that we are talking about, I think we should all review this report, and what it says. And I'm going email this out to everyone of you tonight."

It was only a 3 minute video. Now, this video should have gone viral all over the country, as it is applicable to any local government in the country. But it was suppressed! They blocked the hit counter, stripped it off their search engines. So very few people would see it. Even the ones that were seeing it, the hit counter was kept very low. I accomplished over 15,000 hits from just passing it around myself. In the first week I saw it was up there.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ8YhJyxPQo

So, on the "Silence is Golden Rule" there are many steps that are taken to maintain that environment, whether it be the media - there's total exclusion from the media - you're not going to have your 'talking head' on ABC, NBC or CBS News or local affiliates - Phoenix, Dallas or Miami - saying anything about this Comprehensive Annual Financial Report (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_annual_financial_report) that every government in our State produces - the city, county, school district, our enterprises, even our pension funds produce... "Now, I'd like any of our viewers to google that & look that up and download it & get back to me with a comment about what was found..."

Now, if any reporter that would put that out, they would find themselves kicked out the door the very next day. They would no longer be an anchor. I was able to talk one into doing it back in 1994 - Mary Flanagan, worked for ABC, channel 33 at the time. She made mention on the evening 10 o'clock news, the next day 7am, they would air the same news sequence, they cut that segment & she was no longer an anchor 2 days later. I challenged her to make mention of it in, as I had Arizona's 1994 CAFR in my hand. She did a full 40 second camera shot of it and made a few comments - That didn't go over too well.

There was a guy that was running for the governor of Oregon, Rich Smith, back in 1998 or '99. He put up the CAFR on his website, put it on a email post for the State & a few of the local governments. He was already accepted by the Republican Party - they dropped him like a hot potato & went into obscurity. Now, keep in mind, both the Democrat & Republic party heads have been in this for 40 years. They know what its all about. Most people don't realize that both the Democrat & Republican parties are private organizations - like the Boy Scouts. They were created to network the population to get their people to get access to the till. It has nothing to do with benefiting the population. It has to do with getting their people in there to get access to the till. I've heard them say - many times I've gotten the feedback from people who were offered to be higher up, they were told what they were to do, when they get in - they can do whatever they want - because that is the intent.

The school districts - they'll put together their own Comprehensive Annual Financial Report - state universities, community colleges - you can have a university saying, "Oh, we're short on our budget, we're going to have to raise tuition 7-8% this year." You can look at their Annual Financial Report, and you know they could be $8-1/2 billion in the black!

Again - a selective presentation. And, with the 'maintained void' kept over the entire population, you have to realize what you're up against, from scratch-one. Start looking, put into a Google search "City of Miami Comprehensive Annual Financial Report" and blip! - up pops their CAFR. Community college, university, city, county, State - do the same thing along with CAFR in quotes & blip up it pops.

I am emphasizing that when you start looking for the first time - breaching the void in the vacuum that was intentionally spoon-fed to you, the scope & the size of this will rock your world & you will never be the same. You will realize that your entire lifetime has been an illusion - a false presentation in being spoon-fed. All the entertainment that been shown - Michael Jackson, OJ Simpson, this, that & the other thing - is so you never look at the basics & the fundamentals that are staring you right in the face.

John B: Given the glibness of the politicians, and the secrecy all around these enormous financial transactions, what are we suppose to do here. What's the biggest problem the public faces right now. I understand that the housing bubble is still there - that it never left.

Walter Burien: I understand your question. My first prong approach was for disclosure - and that I've done. I've reached over 55 million people, internationally. People are now looking. When I first started - nobody knew. Now, one out of four people within the country know. The second aspect is remedy. So, what I've structured is a group called TRFA - Tax Retirement Fund Association (http://taxretirement.com/) - which is designed to do what it says - retire taxation. And I'm getting the national headquarters together right now, I've had a million dollar backing come in from Texas to get this operation going. And what I'll be doing is local governments - city, county, school district - I'll be showing them how they can set up a fiduciary trust (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiduciary_trust) account, to consolidate their investment assets, have some mandatory contributions from enterprise operations. And from that fiduciary trust pay all their operating budgets - all of them. Taxation is not needed. All that taxation is, it is a revenue source, period! So based on this massive infrastructure government has built up already, we can consolidate under a fiduciary trust account designed to phase out & eliminate all taxation.

And for the management of the trust, I'm putting together 12 points, which cover all aspects of doing this. And each one of the points, the population is the first-line beneficiary. And what this does is it takes taxation out of the picture for the first time in history. And more importantly - you know that taxation has been going on for 10,000 years - what you've had in history is government administration (however it may have been), and all the industrial cartels (however they may have been), and they came up together to use the population as a productivity resource to be drained & managed - never has been a good thing, never will be a good thing.

And going under the fiduciary trust principle to phase out all taxation - what that does, also now, is it puts everyone on the same page for the first time in history - population, government administration & the financial industrial cartels. Now they want to see a prosperous economy. The focus is not on draining the population - getting over on the population to drain them in any way, shape & form - its to see a thriving economy.

So, on the fiduciary trust funds, you have this massive pool of investment wealth for capital re-investment. You know, businesses are happy & so forth, you have the population now with taxation phased out, their maintaining their productivity value - more to spend - driving the economy, higher rates of return on investments, more truckloads of cash running back in for government on their investment trusts.

So there is no reason for non disclosure [regarding CAFRs & hiding actual real budgets from the public], its an open picture now, everyone benefits and you have everyone on the same page for the first time in history. And that's what my attention is focused on now, it is to set up this structure & get it rolling along. And I'll be setting up a central database, putting about 170,000 managers into the database, showing their performance 5, 10, 15, 25 years, money under management. So if a city like Miami, Florida called me saying they wanted to go on the fiduciary trust principle, I hit a key stroke & it pulls up 15 managers local to Miami showing their track record for the last 25 years, they're sent out an acceptance letter to manage the city's fiduciary trust fund, and there's a set guidelines for the phasing out of all taxation in a venue to switch over their budgets strictly from the fiduciary trust fund.

So yeah, we're talking a dynamic paradigm shift, here, that not just lowers taxation but phases it out & eliminates it, breaks through the non disclosure that's been going on for the last thousand years - from the 'boys'. It puts everybody on the same page. And, it leads to a prospering economy that is self-perpetuating itself for the next thousand years, or what I call "the millennium of prosperity". All these gloom & doomers, especially the religious ones - "World's Coming to an End!" Ah, excuse me, have you ever heard of "The Millennium of Prosperity that we're all promised? That hasn't happened yet, so I think you're jumping the gun on the end of the world thing." I'm working on the millennium factor.

But I have to be able to get through the government's greed & opportunity principle. This whole thing developed out of greed & opportunity. The vault door was left open, the public didn't have a clue - they made sure the public didn't have a clue - and they kept expanding. So if you don't satisfy the greed & opportunity principle, it ain't going to work. But here, with the structure I am setting up with the TRFA, government actually brings in more money. They have a stable economy, a growing, flourishing economy. The population maintains their productivity, growing their wealth base. The businesses & the financial cartels - unlimited pools of capital investment - they're happy.

So now you have all three groups happy for the first time. And, its satisfying the greed & opportunity principle - population, government administration and financial industrial cartels. Now the government administration is going to be the hardest nut to crack because they've been so profound that non disclosure / entertaining the population / misdirecting the population / scaring the population - their whole world revolves around that.

But I'm going to make it very clear. I'm going out to D.C. sometime in the near future & get a room in the Senate Building, invite all the Congress, governors & Senate to a presentation. And I'm going to make it very clear that out of their own greed & opportunity principle they've created a 300 car freight train, moving at 400 miles an hour towards a 1 mile thick concrete wall. The collision is inevitable & its not going to be a pretty sight. And it only going to happen because of their own greed & opportunity principle & their need to have ultimate, absolute control based on how they're operating now.

Under this structure, everyone wins, and you have a thriving economy over the next 1,000 years. And if I can get it through their heads, and it registers regarding satisfying their greed & opportunity principle fairly, it will happen. And the population may say, "What happened?" The bottom-line is taxation is phased out of the picture for the first time in history, and all three power groups being on the same page. Its never been that way in history. But it can happen. So, that is what I'm focusing my full attention on - to make that happen.


Ending Taxation: The Only Game in Town


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn3hUcmNDdA

[apokalypse]

i need abit of a rant how i feel right now with society with the problem that i seen or face right now. After my grandfather dead about year ago and now whole family take care of stubborn uncooperative grandmother who are Alzheimer/Dementia which give carer mental breakdown over time. with all the screams and yelling i'm really frustrated with society...being Asian it's tough when in a culture younger people always must and listen to who is older than you are especially Parents, only one person able to deal with it are my grandfather. for months especially weeks now i find Society does nothing but create fear and doesn't help the individuals but we help ourselves.

society isn't about Life but illusions of materials things and power, just heard few stories in one of the town at my home country use to be great and now the town is insane facing all kind of problems like people became unstructured-criminals-no compassion which is sad. the town use to be great with great people...i come to conclusion that if you have quality of life then you could became more spiritual person.

I have heard something about Self Service over night shop in this forum where people need something at night then they just get it and leave the money behind but if you don't have money then leave a note behind pay back next day...why can't society be like this? why we have so many homeless around the country when there's enough food and shelter goes around? why we even go to court over Money?

with any valued based such as Money/Currency or what ever you called it will not work..

[Bill Ryan]

.
This is the simplest version of how come we have money... it's hard to think of an effective workaround to this problem!

Read carefully. :)


I have a bunch of apples from my orchard.
You have a bunch of pears.
I want your pears, and you want my apples. So we swap. Not a problem.

But here's a different situation.


Now, our neighbor has potatoes... but they're not ready yet.
You want my apples, now. But I want the potatoes, later. And HE wants pears, which can be kept for him in a cold cellar.
So I give you my apples, now. But there's nothing anyone can give me right this moment.
So you give me a piece of paper instead, which I later give to the potato guy.
And I give you a piece of paper, too.
Those papers say:




You owe me a bunch of pears. When you give them to me, please give me the paper.
You owe me a bunch of potatoes. When you give them to me, please give me the paper.

That's what money is, and how it got started.

[Ines]

Yes, the Barter Trade. This could be convenient and they are applying it in some small communities with people tired of living in big cities. Even in cities, people find alternatives, as this people are doing in Greece
:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y9R0v96K48

[Bill Ryan]

Yes, the Barter Trade.

Yes. You see, but simple barter doesn't work if the potatoes are harvested way after the apples.

That's why one has to create a promissory note. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promissory_note) "I promise to pay the bearer on demand one pound of potatoes."

[Daozen]

Cash is fine til it's mixed with fiat. That's why bitcoin is loved ==> It's a fixed supply.

[Justplain]

In the barter network i investigated a few years ago, each person who did work for, or provided goods to, another network member, was given credit of a certain amount. This credit could be exchanged for other goods or services. I believe the network provided an exchange rate of what a good or service was worth in the system. When the exchange rate is equitable you can get a workable arrangement.

I believe for this kind of arrangement to work on a grander scale than just on a local community level, advanced tech is probably needed, such as zero point energy and highly effective 3D printers. This tech would create such added wealth with only marginal extra human effort that a barter system could flourish, permitting people to live independently, comfortably and in harmony with nature.

[Daozen]

3D printers are a very valuable technology that could eventually lift the whole world out of poverty. Note how TPTB tried to smear them a a while ago, saying they could be used to make guns.

[ozmirage]

.
This is the simplest version of how come we have money... it's hard to think of an effective workaround to this problem!

Read carefully. :)


I have a bunch of apples from my orchard.
You have a bunch of pears.
I want your pears, and you want my apples. So we swap. Not a problem.

But here's a different situation.


Now, our neighbor has potatoes... but they're not ready yet.
You want my apples, now. But I want the potatoes, later. And HE wants pears, which can be kept for him in a cold cellar.
So I give you my apples, now. But there's nothing anyone can give me right this moment.
So you give me a piece of paper instead, which I later give to the potato guy.
And I give you a piece of paper, too.
Those papers say:




You owe me a bunch of pears. When you give them to me, please give me the paper.
You owe me a bunch of potatoes. When you give them to me, please give me the paper.

That's what money is, and how it got started.

You almost have it right.

What you forgot to mention is that MONEY MAD people use a token, a coin of precious metal, that after "passing value" in the final trade - still has value.

Whereas if you tendered the note (IOU) and it was discharged, it was thus DESTROYED.

The masters of money madness relied on people confusing an obligation (IOU) with a place holder (token), and have been running the scam for millennia.

[ozmirage]

Please note - Burien and others who claims that there are "trillions and trillions" being "printed up" do not match with the law (12 USC Sec. 411) nor other facts.

http://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12773.htm
Q: How much U.S. currency is in circulation?
A: There was approximately $1.45 trillion in circulation as of April 6, 2016, of which $1.4 trillion was in Federal Reserve notes.
($4,375 per capita )


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_position_of_the_United_States
● ". . . The financial position of the United States includes assets of at least $269.6 trillion and debts of $145.8 trillion to produce a net worth of at least $123.8 trillion."

http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/neo/resource.html
● NASA has estimated the mineral wealth of the entire Asteroid Belt could be as much as $700 quintillion, or a seven followed by 20 zero. That’s $100 billion for every one of the 7 billion people on Earth!

=\=\=\=
How can you believe measurements that exceed the known total of circulating monies?
$1.4 T in circulation versus $145.8 T in debt versus 123.8 T “net worth.”
Isn’t that INSANE?
$1.4 T in circulation versus $700 quintillion estimated “dollar value.”
Are we not mad?

What’s really reality: the actual sum of property, goods and services - or - an arbitrary value and sum of money tokens ?
=\=\=\=

If Amancio Ortega, Carlos Slim Helu, Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, and a consortium of other billionaires walked into the offices of the largest bank on the planet, and asked for a loan of 20 trillion dollar bills with which to fund mining asteroids worth 300 times that value and were more than willing to pay 15% interest, the bank would have to decline.
WHY?

The.Money.Does.Not.Exist.

- - -
P.S. Congress has no power to create money. It can coin money (stamp bullion) or borrow money. It cannot create bullion. (Dollar bills are IOUs, not money)

[Bill Ryan]

What you forgot to mention is that MONEY MAD people use a token, a coin of precious metal, that after "passing value" in the final trade - still has value.

Whereas if you tendered the note (IOU) and it was discharged, it was thus DESTROYED.


Yes, exactly. Stage two of the process is when the IOUs are retained and used as handy tokens for the barter of home-made candles, furniture, salted beef, labor, or horses. :)

Simple barter fails immediately when the timing of availability doesn't match up. That's why tokens are needed. (And yes, of course, the entire 'token' system has become hijacked since then.)

[Justplain]

I think an economist would say that money is an iou. When you make something and sell it to someone else in exchange for money, the buyer has given you an iou that he/she got from somewhere else. Money is therefore an iou which can be stored for later use. The central bank issues the iou supposedly based on the growth in value of the nation's economy. The amount of value on a bank's books are the iou's they've lent out, they only have to keep a small amount of that 'on deposit'. So the funds that are out there are still iou's from the central bank. The problem arises if the central bank 'prints'/releases more funds than match the growth in the economy, resulting in inflation. Also, the problem also arises when the central bank prints funds and gives it to whomever they want, like the US central bank, the federal reserve, which is owned privately (no one publicly knows who owns shares in it, is not subject to a public audit, loans money to private and overseas entities and has little or no public oversight).

So to make it short, the exchange of the iou for something else does not require the destruction of the iou, it just means the iou is owed to someone else.

[Peace of Mind]

The only way we will be able to do this is through trust, responsibility, and consideration. As long as people are divided, we will never see the light of this day.

We are so against each other that we actually allow ourselves to be ruled and governed by “Paper”. What’s more discouraging than this is the fact that “paper” is now being replaced with imaginary paper (electronic cash/credit).
We are simply not committed to the prosperity of the species…just the individual. Hardly anyone here even entertains the idea, so we can’t really expect much from the masses. When we are often seen dwelling on the negatives… instead of using the positives to fashion a remedy…how do we progress? When societies are fooled into operating out of debt, while spending more time working than being with family…the future can only be the complete opposite of what Start Trek is displaying.
The potential is there; however, we’ll never meet it because we’re trained to be overly competitive, too sensitive to criticism, possess blind arrogance, encourage egocentric tendencies, becomes envious with ease, too frightened to sacrifice, and ALWAYS confused (purposely) with unimportant matters.

Life is easy (observe all the other Earthy creatures). We struggle ONLY because of our division. As long as we stay at odds…we all lose.
When there are “Law” companies and Libraries filled with thousands and thousands of books giving rules to how to live….we are exercising in being losers. Because standards are made by those with limits.

Peace

[apokalypse]

why you go back to Barter System? it still valued based, we have heard all sort of how et's lived from all sort of contactee sound very Socialism that human beings on planet earth rejected...in transition to no-money society we still have Money but take it away very slowly and put the money where it needs, for instance building infrastructure like Hyperloop, desalination sea water plant and have the pipe to the city/state that need water...ect.

I know everyone is different but for myself i don't care how the clothing looks, had a thought of community center that has section for washing..why people owning washer/dryer when not in use most of the time? i had bunch of clothes need to be wash so i notify Washing center(don't know what to called but you can call what ever you want) and Android pick it up, once pick up the robots will do everything from A to Z. this services will be fully automated and on site you have couple of people work.

my family members just brought and selling house...why we even owning a home? in the future with advance tech like 3d printer could print house, right now i'm kind of bored live in Australia want to move to US or other country..i wish in the future able to Move without any issue or require documentation...all i need is notify Government/Public Agency and they could help get me a land or a home in US, no need these crap with Visa/Citizen. we live on the same planet why so much separation? Once i'm in US-Uk then i look on the job list that need to do or required of my expertise otherwise i can go to school to be train for new field of job..there's no job interview.

Barter system only implies to other civilization...for instance Annunaki required Gold then we could give them Gold in return for something that we human beings on planet earth need. i believe these type of trade happen alot in galactic level.

[ozmirage]

What you forgot to mention is that MONEY MAD people use a token, a coin of precious metal, that after "passing value" in the final trade - still has value.

Whereas if you tendered the note (IOU) and it was discharged, it was thus DESTROYED.


Yes, exactly. Stage two of the process is when the IOUs are retained and used as handy tokens for the barter of home-made candles, furniture, salted beef, labor, or horses. :)

Simple barter fails immediately when the timing of availability doesn't match up. That's why tokens are needed. (And yes, of course, the entire 'token' system has become hijacked since then.)

The IOUs / obligations for specific items have become generic obligations for no specific items.
In other words, people have embraced the insanity that money has intrinsic value independent of the marketplace.

There is no one to one correspondence between the whole set of money tokens and the marketplace of goods and services. That's the problem. We're barking mad to constrain our trade to a finite and scarce sum of money tokens.

[ozmirage]

I think an economist would say that money is an iou. When you make something and sell it to someone else in exchange for money, the buyer has given you an iou that he/she got from somewhere else. Money is therefore an iou which can be stored for later use. The central bank issues the iou supposedly based on the growth in value of the nation's economy. The amount of value on a bank's books are the iou's they've lent out, they only have to keep a small amount of that 'on deposit'. So the funds that are out there are still iou's from the central bank. The problem arises if the central bank 'prints'/releases more funds than match the growth in the economy, resulting in inflation. Also, the problem also arises when the central bank prints funds and gives it to whomever they want, like the US central bank, the federal reserve, which is owned privately (no one publicly knows who owns shares in it, is not subject to a public audit, loans money to private and overseas entities and has little or no public oversight).

So to make it short, the exchange of the iou for something else does not require the destruction of the iou, it just means the iou is owed to someone else.
Your assumptions do not match law nor economics, a horrid science at that.
Most people suspect, but can’t quite prove that all eCONomists are mentally ill, money mad, and in denial of reality.

It does not seem to register in their eCONned minds that usury (interest) is an abomination, and mathematically unsustainable in a finite money token system. Due to the exponential equation for calculating future worth, an INFINITE supply of money is needed. Ergo, a portion of debtors will DEFAULT simply because enough money can never exist to pay all outstanding usury. Money is a dead thing that cannot reproduce. This is one of the reasons why usury was condemned for 3500 years (or more). To compound matters, the money token is a variable, not a constant, making measurements questionable, as well as any predictions based on such units.

The most blatant example of insanity is the scarcity of money tokens, which voids the claim that “inflation is caused by too much money chasing too few goods.” Billionaires are not bidding up the price for milk, shoes, nor gasoline. As anyone can observe, unmet need, unemployment, underemployment, closed factories, closed retail outlets are evidence of a money drought, since no one has “enough money.”

Another illustration of madness that the masses have embraced - - -
We are told that despite only 1.3 trillion dollar bills in circulation, there is outstanding debt of 19+ trillion dollars (public) and 145.8 trillion dollar bills (private), versus a net worth of 123.8 trillion dollar bills.
(Based on coining all the world’s gold bullion, it would amount to $112 billion dollars, pursuant to the Coinage Act of 1792 - far too little to be used as a medium of exchange, let alone pay off the debt)

Added to that nonsense, there are people blithely claiming that asteroids have minerals worth trillions and quadrillions of “dollar bills” (that do not exist).
You cannot measure when the “yardstick” is not long enough.

But don't tell that to "money mad" billions on this planet.
They're too busy "making money" to stop and think.

[Carmody]

Money supply is falsely inflated at the creation end for the usury creators and their cohorts ...and then shortened in supply at the public end, which simultaneously creates & maintains usury or a prison state ---for the average human.

It's a control structure designed from the ground up .... to be just our of sight of the average person's cognitive range.

When the pressure of shifts and changes gets intense it naturally contracts at the street level, like a slaver checking and tightening chains on slaves, when the boat shifts or the ground rumbles. Never know, they might break free, so tighten that grip....

[Carmody]

Humanity's parallel civilization operates (dysfunctionally at the moment...) on a hybrid barter type of system. Since it was initially established ~100 years ago in parallel with the topsider civilization's Federal Reserve, both systems have reached a point where a hard reset is required. Since the ultimate goal is to integrate the two civilizations, their respective economies will also be integrated after the war.

I want the son of a bitch who fed himself in his little sociopath ways when this came up. I want the war mongering sociopaths who made this mess, in front of me. The ones who fed themselves and did not enact functional corrections, corrections which would have limited the damage and simultaneously informed and educated the public in the necessary ways --so that the carnage would have been eased through the motion and the final acts.

It is that blind sided self feeding which has caused so much damage. It is that lack of self control in that grouping which is primarily responsible for this mess.


Life without lessons is a waste of life. Hard lessons can be a life well lived, and added in as a fundamental, can make a case for a functional counterpoint. However, when balance is violated and shifted into overt damage, therein comes the problem. Tis' a fine line and the trick is to ride it's back like Occam's Razor. And that, we are not seeing here. And that... for those who know, for those informed in it, yet continue ...comes price.

[Justplain]

Ozmirage, i have to dispell some confusion here.

Firstly, an object or service only has an economic value if someone is willing to pay for it, and it is only worth what somone is willing to pay. A pet rock is not worth a nickel if no one is willing to pay a nickel for it. Usury or interest rates fall into this category, its a matter of what someone is willing to pay.

The valuation of assets in the economy is not a direct function of the 'printed' money in circulation. It is valued at what someone paid for it, usually. That payment can be made in currency, or stocks, or the exchange of other assets. An exception in valuation (as per financial statements) would be when an estimate is accepted by the investment community, such as the valuation estimate of in-ground oil supply for an oil company, which is usually based upon geologists' estimate for recoverable reserves. This estimate is only useful if the oil is actually extracted.

So, generally, when financial statements claim an asset value for a company or person, the valuation can be financed from non cash sources and the value may be an estimate.

NASA's estimate of the value for minerals in the asteroid belt is just that, an estimate. It is worthless until someone can get out there and retrieve it and bring it to a market where it can be sold. Most people realize this is just 'talk' in order for the space agency to obtain funding.

Regarding money supply, the way cash in circulation can affect the economy is what's called the 'multiplier effect', last i heard that factor is 7. What happens is the central bank issues a hundred dollars which is loaned to retail bank X who lends $95 to person A (the bank has to keep $5 to meet its cash reserves requirements). Person A hires person B for a task and pays them the $95. Person B then deposits the cash in retail bank Y who then lends $90 to person C (keeping $5 on reserve), who spends it all.... and so on. Therefore, a $100 issued by the central bank has an economic impact of @$700 (or whatever that works out to).

This is the logic behind using money supply to stimulate the economy. 'Quantitative Easing' uses this principal. To slow the economy the reverse logic works, so for every $100 the central bank takes out of circulation, the economy shrinks by $700.

Secondly, national debt is money a federal government actually borrows from the capital markets. This is not a fictitious number. Where the problem, and scam in my opinion, arises is that federal governments dont get credit for when the money supply increases to support a growing economy. Instead, the central bank issues it and lends it out at cheap rates to retail banks which then lend it to the federal governments at a higher rate. If the federal government was able to take credit for that money supply increase, it could use it to pay down its accumulated deficit. As long as the government balanced its budget, it could dig its way out of its debt burden.

They say that Lincoln in the US wanted to issue currency out of the Treasury department instead of through a central bank, and that one of the reasons he was killed was to stop this from happening. A similar situation may have been a factor in the death of Kennedy, too.


Thirdly, the biggest problem with the current capitalist system, in my opinion, is that the public gets convinced through advertising and 'keeping up with the Joneses' that they need all these gadgets, toys and trinkets. If they werent so hell bent on 'have it all, and have it now', people and governments, wouldnt be so overwhelmed with overwork and over borrowing in pursuit of unsustainable lifestyles.

My hope is that technology advances to the extent where people can cheaply live comfortably in a more independent manner, more 'off the grid', and with their basic needs met, people might become less consumption and status driven. Perhaps they'd spend more time on their consciousness, etc., and the pursuit of money would diminish.

One can only hope.

[Ines]

The only way we will be able to do this is through trust, responsibility, and consideration. As long as people are divided, we will never see the light of this day.

We are so against each other that we actually allow ourselves to be ruled and governed by “Paper”. What’s more discouraging than this is the fact that “paper” is now being replaced with imaginary paper (electronic cash/credit).
We are simply not committed to the prosperity of the species…just the individual. Hardly anyone here even entertains the idea, so we can’t really expect much from the masses. When we are often seen dwelling on the negatives… instead of using the positives to fashion a remedy…how do we progress? When societies are fooled into operating out of debt, while spending more time working than being with family…the future can only be the complete opposite of what Start Trek is displaying.
The potential is there; however, we’ll never meet it because we’re trained to be overly competitive, too sensitive to criticism, possess blind arrogance, encourage egocentric tendencies, becomes envious with ease, too frightened to sacrifice, and ALWAYS confused (purposely) with unimportant matters.

Life is easy (observe all the other Earthy creatures). We struggle ONLY because of our division. As long as we stay at odds…we all lose.
When there are “Law” companies and Libraries filled with thousands and thousands of books giving rules to how to live….we are exercising in being losers. Because standards are made by those with limits.

Peace

I´m a 100% with you.

BUT there is a BIG OBSTACLE in front of us. We haven´t found the way to controll or put out of our way This "thing". That sector of "human like" figures that live among us; the ones IN POWER; Sychopaths controlling all Humanity. They are filled with GREED and ARROGANCE and their USURY techniques to hold down a slaved humanity who don´t agree with them. They are so free of emotion and human empathy, they don´t think twice to use murder, genocide, and all other resources to make way for their interests.

So... THAT is our real problem. They would NEVER allowed whatever changes we might think necessary in order to live in peace. And don´t think they are going to "disappear" from our Society, for thousands of years; maybe WE are intended to disappear from Earth, our own humanity, our emotions and sensitivities work for them... and they know it.

Ines

[Peace of Mind]

In the barter network i investigated a few years ago, each person who did work for, or provided goods to, another network member, was given credit of a certain amount. This credit could be exchanged for other goods or services. I believe the network provided an exchange rate of what a good or service was worth in the system. When the exchange rate is equitable you can get a workable arrangement.

I believe for this kind of arrangement to work on a grander scale than just on a local community level, advanced tech is probably needed, such as zero point energy and highly effective 3D printers. This tech would create such added wealth with only marginal extra human effort that a barter system could flourish, permitting people to live independently, comfortably and in harmony with nature.

We are the problem and the solution. Problems we created by “allowing” these things to happen through our ignorance.

Today, as we become more aware of this unnerving truth…some of us rather pretend the answer is a mystery. There is no easy way to remedy the situation…as it took a lot of years of deceitful tactics and brain washing to stabilize it. The masses are ruled by the “few” because we were conditioned to trust and believe in them. As generation come and go through this same system…a sense of hopelessness and regularity is maintained. Society believes this is the way life should be and there is nothing we can do about it. to be honest... I find it weird that billions of people are so afraid and unorganized to weed out the few bad apples. Fear that exist and is only driven by a lack of trust in others to do their part, to have their back, to speak up and stand up. Now imagine If we all (or even most of us) actually said enough is enough…

THEY is only a cowardly few operating behind the scenes. WE are the populace waiting on our brothers and sisters to acknowledge the issues and help to solve them. I’m sure the police, military and most authority figures will side with the people…but only when the people show them the error of their ways. We are in a better position than we think…but when the police/military become fully mechanical/robotic…it may be too late.

We have to recognized that we are being divided in many ways (purposely), this buys time for the oppressors to implement better control strategies. It is why I’m so adamant and focused on the more pressing issues, I can easily see the distractions and have no fear speaking out on it. When an audience/group is placed in a mode of stagnation and confusion…you best believe it’s was intentional.

So never allow yourself to be inactive in your short span of existence here. Never let someone rob you of your courage to tool in your legacy. If you’re finding yourself idled, waiting, contemplating (most of the time)….you are most likely being manipulated in to that position. It’s easy to see this…if you’re honest with yourself. Just ask your very being why are you inactive? what is making me not play my part? what am I doing with most of my time? What have I’ve achieved/gained of importance to my life (humanity) during this time of inertia? We can win..but are we truly making that attempt to do so? Until we get focused, we will continue the path of sorrow and dismay. Continue to talk about the issues instead of solving them. We are just filling each other up with grief, but I usually choose to not indulge in it unless I'm pointing out how its becoming a distraction. I'm still a bit amazed at how unwelcoming my contributions on the matter has become. But I'll continue to push on...and fight for mine and our freedoms... in the ways I know how.

Peace

[ozmirage]

I did not wish to digress too much from the original post about Star Trek Moneyless system.

Let's refresh our notions.
Prosperity is based on production, equitable trade, and enjoyment of surplus usable goods and services.
Money has nothing to do with prosperity.
A mountain of money is useless if there is nothing to buy in the marketplace. (Gilligan's Island scenario)
Likewise, if everyone has "more money than they can ever spend" and won't go to work "for money" then civilization collapses, despite everyone being "wealthy."
Money mad people won't work unless they "need money" illustrates what is wrong.



Ozmirage, i have to dispell some confusion here.

Firstly, an object or service only has an economic value if someone is willing to pay for it, and it is only worth what somone is willing to pay. A pet rock is not worth a nickel if no one is willing to pay a nickel for it. Usury or interest rates fall into this category, its a matter of what someone is willing to pay.
Your argument fits well with money madness, alas.

"Economic value" denominated ONLY in money tokens is evidence of insanity. (money madness)

If 160 million producers barter / trade with 160 million other producers, and no money changes hands,WHAT ECONOMIC VALUE WAS TRADED?
Zero money changed hands.
"OOPS".
How about 320 million man days of labor? Or evaluate in terms of tons of potatoes fried and served? Backrubs given?
"DANG".


Conversely, if a money drought impairs trade so there is unmet need, unemployment, and unused productive facilities, why are we still using the argument that there's too much money chasing too few goods causing inflation?
Barking mad!

Of course, scarcity of money tokens is vital to drive demand for credit, thus enriching the usurers (abominations).

USURY has been denounced for "only" 3500 years. Why?
Usury is mathematically unsustainable in a finite money token system.
A Brief History of Interest | AMI (American Monetary Institute)
http://www.monetary.org/a-brief-history-of-interest/2010/12




The valuation of assets in the economy is not a direct function of the 'printed' money in circulation. It is valued at what someone paid for it, usually. That payment can be made in currency, or stocks, or the exchange of other assets. An exception in valuation (as per financial statements) would be when an estimate is accepted by the investment community, such as the valuation estimate of in-ground oil supply for an oil company, which is usually based upon geologists' estimate for recoverable reserves. This estimate is only useful if the oil is actually extracted.

So, generally, when financial statements claim an asset value for a company or person, the valuation can be financed from non cash sources and the value may be an estimate.

NASA's estimate of the value for minerals in the asteroid belt is just that, an estimate. It is worthless until someone can get out there and retrieve it and bring it to a market where it can be sold.
[MISSING THE POINT - it can't be sold - the money does not exist!]

Most people realize this is just 'talk' in order for the space agency to obtain funding.

MINOR QUIBBLE : NOTES "dollar bills" are not money. See USCON. Congress can coin money (stamp bullion) or borrow money. Paper notes (IOUs) are not money, by law.

And if a money token system is not proportional in value with the marketplace of goods and services, SOMEONE MUST BE CHEATED / ROBBED or can't otherwise trade.
That's not a good thing.

The function of any money token is to PASS VALUE to a future trade.
If the supply / value of money is not proportional with the marketplace, TRADE BREAKS DOWN.
Ditto, if money is hoarded / taken out of circulation.

But the fact remains, the alleged outstanding debt is several orders of magnitude greater than the supply of "current monies." Which means when the "music stops" there are not enough "chairs."





Regarding money supply, the way cash in circulation can affect the economy is what's called the 'multiplier effect', last i heard that factor is 7. What happens is the central bank issues a hundred dollars which is loaned to retail bank X who lends $95 to person A (the bank has to keep $5 to meet its cash reserves requirements). Person A hires person B for a task and pays them the $95. Person B then deposits the cash in retail bank Y who then lends $90 to person C (keeping $5 on reserve), who spends it all.... and so on. Therefore, a $100 issued by the central bank has an economic impact of @$700 (or whatever that works out to).

This is the logic behind using money supply to stimulate the economy. 'Quantitative Easing' uses this principal. To slow the economy the reverse logic works, so for every $100 the central bank takes out of circulation, the economy shrinks by $700.

Secondly, national debt is money a federal government actually borrows from the capital markets. This is not a fictitious number. Where the problem, and scam in my opinion, arises is that federal governments dont get credit for when the money supply increases to support a growing economy. Instead, the central bank issues it and lends it out at cheap rates to retail banks which then lend it to the federal governments at a higher rate. If the federal government was able to take credit for that money supply increase, it could use it to pay down its accumulated deficit. As long as the government balanced its budget, it could dig its way out of its debt burden.

They say that Lincoln in the US wanted to issue currency out of the Treasury department instead of through a central bank, and that one of the reasons he was killed was to stop this from happening. A similar situation may have been a factor in the death of Kennedy, too.
We're all victims of the world's greatest propaganda ministry, so it's not surprising that we're fooled.

Since 1933, there has been no money in circulation. Do not believe me - go read the law.
"Dollar bills" are IOUs. Worse, they've been repudiated since 1933 and are worthless. They are NOT fiat. They ARE legal tender on obligated parties on the note.
Pursuant to 12 USC Sec. 411, the USGOV is an obligated party.
Can you guess how 320 million "human resources" became obligated?
Hint: "Contribution" means equal liability in paying a claim.
Hint hint : Federal Insurance CONTRIBUTIONS Act of 1935 did not create an insurance program. It's a "tax and bribe" program.



Thirdly, the biggest problem with the current capitalist system, in my opinion, is that the public gets convinced through advertising and 'keeping up with the Joneses' that they need all these gadgets, toys and trinkets. If they werent so hell bent on 'have it all, and have it now', people and governments, wouldnt be so overwhelmed with overwork and over borrowing in pursuit of unsustainable lifestyles.

My hope is that technology advances to the extent where people can cheaply live comfortably in a more independent manner, more 'off the grid', and with their basic needs met, people might become less consumption and status driven. Perhaps they'd spend more time on their consciousness, etc., and the pursuit of money would diminish.

One can only hope.
The USA has been socialist since 1933.
BTW - so-called "capitalists" - banks and corporations are not capitalism. True capitalism is the private ownership of the means of production, an endowed right. Bankers / usurers and corporations are creatures of government, exercising a revenue taxable privilege.

Coincidentally, banks and corporations co-exist with communism, which abolishes private property.

Velocity of money?

http://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12773.htm
Q: How much U.S. currency is in circulation?
A: There was approximately $1.45 trillion in circulation as of April 6, 2016, of which $1.4 trillion was in Federal Reserve notes.
($4,375 per capita )

{If you have a "fat" IRA or stock account, don't expect to be able to "cash out." The cash does not exist.}

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_United_States_federal_budget
● 2015 Federal Budget $3.58 trillion (expenditures)
● 2015 Federal Deficit $ 438.9 billion (borrowed)
● . . . versus . . .
● $1.4 trillion in circulation.

For the government to SPEND 3.58 trillion, with only 1.4 trillion circulating means the whole money supply cycled 2.55 times through the government.
VAROOM.
And out of the 1.4 trillion, $0.438 trillion was BORROWED, at usury, by the government.
31% of the circulating money was BORROWED.
CRA-ZEE

Or worse, CONgress is paying interest with BORROWED funds.
● 2015 Debt Service $252 billion (estimate) versus
● 2015 Federal Deficit $ 438.9 billion (borrowed)

Didn't Bernie Madoff go to jail for doing that in the private sector?

(You don't even want to think about the 19+ trillion dollar debt. To pay it off would require freezing it, and taking all the world's mined gold for the next 7000 years.)

Money Madness
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?89905-Money-Madness

Fractional Reserve Banking is NOT fraud
http://www.thedailybell.com/editorials/35821/Wendy-McElroy-Fractional-Reserve-Banking-is-Not-Fraud/

In short, what we're taught to believe is money, isn't.
We're tricked into underwriting "bad checks" kited by a bankrupt Congress.
We're perpetually indebted to abominable usurers.
Our fractional coin has been counterfeit since 1965.
And clause 4, 14th amendment forbids challenging the validity of the public debt despite the obvious fraud.
If that's not madness, what else is it?

[Justplain]

Hi Ozmirage, a few notes on your diatribe:
1) an object only has value if someone is willing to pay for it: paying has to do with havingvsomething to exchange, be it barter or currency. This has nothing to do with your 'money madness' but whether 2 people are willing to trade.
2) the value of currency: it really doesnt matter whether you believe that american currency is worthless, it has value because people assign it value. Period. Germany's currency had no 'value' after WW2 because no one had faith in it.
3) Asset valuation: obviously you are completely confused about asset valuation. Again, it has very little to do with money in curculation, i gave several examples of why in the previous post. The marketplace understands this and whatever notions you have to the contrary have no basis. A real concern is overextended governments and households who borrow beyond their ability to repay. So when you confusedly argue about not enough money supply you totally miss the point about debt.

[Mike Gorman]

Money as an expression of energy-because all food is simply solar energy focused and acting on chemistry-until we manage to produce abundant energy via Fusion (as in Star Trek where they have cracked the fusion problem) we have the situation where power blocs in our societies Own the means of production, and therefore can hold everyone else to ransom. This whole question of money is the abstract layer of energy hording-we can re-configure how we divide energy among us all-but this has failed up to now. Marx identified the mechanics of tyranny, but neglected to provide a solution, in his own words philosophers have merely described the problem, the point is to change it.

[ozmirage]

Hi Ozmirage, a few notes on your diatribe:
1) an object only has value if someone is willing to pay for it: paying has to do with having vsomething to exchange, be it barter or currency. This has nothing to do with your 'money madness' but whether 2 people are willing to trade.

2) the value of currency: it really doesnt matter whether you believe that american currency is worthless, it has value because [money mad] people assign it value. Period. Germany's currency had no 'value' after WW2 because no one had faith in it.

3) Asset valuation: obviously you are completely confused about asset valuation. Again, it has very little to do with money in curculation, i gave several examples of why in the previous post. The marketplace understands this and whatever notions you have to the contrary have no basis.

4) A real concern is overextended governments and households who borrow beyond their ability to repay. So when you confusedly argue about not enough money supply you totally miss the point about debt.
Are you sure you mean "diatribe?"
DIATRIBE - a bitter or violent criticism or attack; denunciation.
I can't find "bitter" or "violent" in my posts. Are you just kidding?

1) If you missed my point, I will restate it. The FINITE amount of money tokens THROTTLES trade because people presume that they can only trade via that scarce commodity. Due to scarcity, TRADE has been hampered. Whereas BARTER is unlimited, not constrained by money madness.

Due to money madness, there is an inexplicable situation :
[] Unmet need / demand,
[] unemployed / underemployed people,
[] closed factories, retailers, industries.

If one inquires as to the cause of this dilemma, most would answer: “Not enough money!”

I would think that an unemployed worker is WILLING TO TRADE, to fulfill UNMET NEED, but cannot because -wait for it- NOT ENOUGH MONEY IS IN CIRCULATION.


2) It is not a "belief." It's the law.
http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages/legal-tender.aspx
". . .Federal Reserve notes are not redeemable in gold, silver or any other commodity, and receive no backing by anything. This has been the case since 1933. The notes have no value for themselves..."

That's legal speak for "no par value." Worthless.

3) Perhaps my lack of money madness makes it appear that I have no comprehension of asset valuation.
But if asset valuation does not have any correlation to money in circulation, it is entirely FRAUDULENT.

To illustrate:
We're playing MONOPOLY, and you wish to trade your Boardwalk and Park Place, complete with HOTELS, for $200,000,000.00 (Mono money)
I concur that it has an asset valuation of $200,000,000.00. But can I buy it?
The game does not come with paper money in that value. The trade cannot complete.

So unless there exists sufficient money tokens with which to buy it, the ASSET VALUATION is BOGUS.

Which supports my claim that money madness blurs our reason so that we accept nonsense as reasonable.

4) In case you were unaware, usury was and is an abomination, denounced for "only" 3500 years. So it is not unreasonable that debtors are [censored].

And when one owes a sum of money greater than the sum of money in existence, it is indeed MADNESS.

If you think it is reasonable to have a public debt, in excess of 19 trillion dollars (not dollar bills) that require 950+ billion ounces of gold stamped into coin to repay, while the world supply of gold bullion is a mere 5.6 billion ounces, then we will have to agree to disagree.

(And frankly, what did CONgress borrow to rack up such a debt? Not gold dollars, for sure!)

And based on the 1.4 trillion dollar bills in circulation, how can sane people make ASSET EVALUATIONS and DEBT COMPUTATIONS far in excess of that sum?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_position_of_the_United_States
". . . The financial position of the United States includes assets of at least $269.6 trillion and debts of $145.8 trillion to produce a net worth of at least $123.8 trillion."

You can call me all sorts of names, but money madness isn't one of them.

You cannot have "asset evaluation" of 269.6 trillion -and-
debts of 145.8 trillion -with only- 1.4 trillion in circulation... (in dollar bills, with no par value, no less!)

To believe in that means one is BARKING MAD.

I rest my case.

[turiya]

Are you sure you mean "diatribe?"
DIATRIBE - a bitter or violent criticism or attack; denunciation.
I can't find "bitter" or "violent" in my posts.

Full Definition of diatribe:

1. archaic : a prolonged discourse
2. a bitter and abusive speech or piece of writing
3. ironic or satirical criticism
SOURCE: Merriam-Webster (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/diatribe)I believe the first definition is what was meant.

[Justplain]

Hi Ozmirage, by 'diatribe' i meant long discourse, not anything more sinister. I respect your right to freedom of expression and to hold your own view.

In response to your points, and trying to get back on the topic of this thread:

1) Money supply, or more like lack of it, has been linked to economic downturns, no doubt. I believe Milton Friedman, the nobel laureat economist, identified multiple recessions in US history linked to money shortage that he believed the government could have averted.

In the context of a no money economy as described in star trek, the demand for goods is met by technology that produces what is needed. That scenario is not yet feasible here, but as stated in an earlier post in this thread, if new technology continues to emerge like zero point energy and 3D printers, then we may be closer to realizing that goal. In this scenario, supply matches demand and no need for currency.

2) US currency valuation: your info just confirms my contention that american fiat notes only have 'value' because people assign it value. It may be worthless paper according to the law, but people 'prize' it, so it has value, just as 'credits' would in a barter network. Case in point is the valueless german mark after WW2, no value cuz no one believed it had any.

In star trek economy terms, we never got exposed in the series to the complexities of a national economy, and how that would work, although i believe Deep Space 9 had some kind of galactic currency i believe. I think that in any case these currencies are 'fiat' because they only have value if the trading participants see it as such, so it doesnt matter if the currency is 'backed' by something because if no one values the 'backing' commodity then what is the currency worth? If gold was as abundant as limestone who would value it highly?

A currency has value if people have confidence in it, period.

3) Asset valuation: as stated earlier in this thread, assets on the market can be traded by cash or asset swaps or by issuing corporate stocks or bonds. Only cash is dependent on money in circulation. Other asset valuation is done via estimates, such as in-ground mineral wealth. Bonds (iou's between companies) are called commercial paper. All these methods of exchanging asset values without cash are used to bypass lack of available currency .

A way the central bank helps the process is by the overnight settlement process, where banks that have lent out more cash than they are permitted by deposit reserve requirements borrow the needed cash from the central bank.

From a star trek viewpoint, this type of asset valuation will probably have some continued use for mega ptojects, etc. I think asset valuation on a personal level may not have much meaning if all your personal need requirements for food, housing, health care, education and entertainment are provided at no 'cost', what is the need for amassing wealth?

4) Usury: i can understand the concerns of overcharging interest on loaned money. Again, to me, if regulated properly, interest is a cost of doing business. Otherwise, an individual or company may not obtain the assets they desire. I think that borrowing money is a personal choice.

To me, 'madness' arises when one borrows more than one can reasonably hope to repay, like our governments and many households. Then one becomes a debt slave, as seen in Greece, or where many western governments are headed.

In star trek, i dont believe individuals take on debt since everything is provided by the state and the technology. Obviosly large projects that the technology cant quickly provide for, have to be organized to produce for, such as building a city, space station or starship. This would probably involve some sort of budgeting and financing. But at that level i believe they would be state owned and controlled.

So that leads us to the problem of oversight. As in star trek and current times, the persons making the decisions on resource allocations is a key factor. I never saw star trek address this issue clearly, star fleet was set up on a military/corporate model of top down authority, with obedience of underlings being key to operations. I can see some necessity for that in organized activities, but it only works well with well informed and ethical leadership.

As current times show, we now need our government oversight to be ethical and accountable, and subject to democratic oversight, not controlled by special interest groups with self-serving agendas. I believe this is the great issue of currents times, making our governments accountable to the interests of common people. How we deal with this now will determine how the star trek society of the future deals with it. I believe we are smart and well educated enough to get the job done.

[ozmirage]

Hi Ozmirage, by 'diatribe' i meant long discourse, not anything more sinister. I respect your right to freedom of expression and to hold your own view.

In response to your points, and trying to get back on the topic of this thread:

1) Money supply, or more like lack of it, has been linked to economic downturns, no doubt. I believe Milton Friedman, the nobel laureat economist, identified multiple recessions in US history linked to money shortage that he believed the government could have averted.

In the context of a no money economy as described in star trek, the demand for goods is met by technology that produces what is needed. That scenario is not yet feasible here, but as stated in an earlier post in this thread, if new technology continues to emerge like zero point energy and 3D printers, then we may be closer to realizing that goal. In this scenario, supply matches demand and no need for currency.

2) US currency valuation: your info just confirms my contention that american fiat notes only have 'value' because people assign it value. It may be worthless paper according to the law, but people 'prize' it, so it has value, just as 'credits' would in a barter network. Case in point is the valueless german mark after WW2, no value cuz no one believed it had any.

In star trek economy terms, we never got exposed in the series to the complexities of a national economy, and how that would work, although i believe Deep Space 9 had some kind of galactic currency i believe. I think that in any case these currencies are 'fiat' because they only have value if the trading participants see it as such, so it doesnt matter if the currency is 'backed' by something because if no one values the 'backing' commodity then what is the currency worth? If gold was as abundant as limestone who would value it highly?

A currency has value if people have confidence in it, period.

3) Asset valuation: as stated earlier in this thread, assets on the market can be traded by cash or asset swaps or by issuing corporate stocks or bonds. Only cash is dependent on money in circulation. Other asset valuation is done via estimates, such as in-ground mineral wealth. Bonds (iou's between companies) are called commercial paper. All these methods of exchanging asset values without cash are used to bypass lack of available currency .

A way the central bank helps the process is by the overnight settlement process, where banks that have lent out more cash than they are permitted by deposit reserve requirements borrow the needed cash from the central bank.

From a star trek viewpoint, this type of asset valuation will probably have some continued use for mega ptojects, etc. I think asset valuation on a personal level may not have much meaning if all your personal need requirements for food, housing, health care, education and entertainment are provided at no 'cost', what is the need for amassing wealth?

4) Usury: i can understand the concerns of overcharging interest on loaned money. Again, to me, if regulated properly, interest is a cost of doing business. Otherwise, an individual or company may not obtain the assets they desire. I think that borrowing money is a personal choice.

To me, 'madness' arises when one borrows more than one can reasonably hope to repay, like our governments and many households. Then one becomes a debt slave, as seen in Greece, or where many western governments are headed.

In star trek, i dont believe individuals take on debt since everything is provided by the state and the technology. Obviosly large projects that the technology cant quickly provide for, have to be organized to produce for, such as building a city, space station or starship. This would probably involve some sort of budgeting and financing. But at that level i believe they would be state owned and controlled.

So that leads us to the problem of oversight. As in star trek and current times, the persons making the decisions on resource allocations is a key factor. I never saw star trek address this issue clearly, star fleet was set up on a military/corporate model of top down authority, with obedience of underlings being key to operations. I can see some necessity for that in organized activities, but it only works well with well informed and ethical leadership.

As current times show, we now need our government oversight to be ethical and accountable, and subject to democratic oversight, not controlled by special interest groups with self-serving agendas. I believe this is the great issue of currents times, making our governments accountable to the interests of common people. How we deal with this now will determine how the star trek society of the future deals with it. I believe we are smart and well educated enough to get the job done.

1) Money supply, or more like lack of it, has been linked to economic downturns, no doubt. [AGREED, BUT NOT FOR THE REASONS STATED]

2) US currency valuation.
This is the "sticking point." You assume current monies = money. I will try to be brief and not bury you in legalese.
"Federal Reserve Notes" are worthless securities emitted by a bankrupt government that are DEBT - therefore NOT fiat. They are LEGAL TENDER on obligated parties on said note. (Title 12 USC Sec. 411 lists the government as an obligated party).

“ The said notes shall be obligations of the United States ...and shall be receivable ... for all taxes, customs, and other public dues.”
- - - 12 USC Sec. 411

The rest of the sheeple are obligated parties on the debt, via FICA / Social Security Act of 1935. (See: "Contribution" in any legal reference). No, FICA is NOT insurance, saith the Supreme court. It's just a tax and bribe scam.

It has NOTHING to do with public confidence, and everything to do with LAW.


TENDER - An offer of money ... Legal tender is that kind of coin, money, or circulating medium which the law compels a creditor to accept in payment of his debt, when tendered by the debtor in the right amount.
- - - Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed. p. 1467

[Note: FRNs are legal tender on the obligated party of those notes - the Federal government. . . AND the 320 million enumerated socialists.]

. . .

"Federal reserve notes are legal tender in absence of objection thereto."
MacLeod v. Hoover (1925) 159 La 244, 105 So. 305
. . .
Enumerated "Human Resources" (via FICA) can not object to the tender of "their" notes.
. . .
Furthermore CONgress has no power to CREATE money. It is empowered to coin money (stamp bullion) or borrow money (like NOTES). It cannot create bullion. Nor can it give such a power to anyone else.
. . .
Restating, since 1933, no lawful money has circulated, with which to "pay debt." Since that year - the start of the EMERGENCY - everyone fell to a low status at law (bankrupt / pauper / indigent) and came under a host of rules and regulations under the Federal governments' power over bankruptcy.

3) Asset valuation: as stated earlier in this thread, assets on the market can be traded by cash or asset swaps or by issuing corporate stocks or bonds.
True. But how do you explain the DEBT? No creditor lends "assets" at usury. He either lends money or extends credit, at usury.

You cannot have "asset evaluation" of 269.6 trillion -and- debts of 145.8 trillion -with only- 1.4 trillion in circulation... (in dollar bills, with no par value, no less!) It would mean that the whole supply of paper notes had cycled 104 times to wrack up that amount of debt.
I M P O S S I B L E.
-or-
F R A U D U L E N T.

4) Usury: i can understand the concerns of overcharging interest on loaned money. Contrary to the modern definition, usury means ANY INTEREST, in money, for the use of money.

Usury is mathematically unsustainable in a finite money token system. Due to the exponential equation used to calculate compound interest, an infinite money supply is needed. Since this is impossible, a portion of debtors shall default simply because enough money can never exist for all to pay their debts. (This goes back to my point about "not enough money.")

To add salt to the wound, Federal Reserve Notes (dollar bills) are borrowed into existence AT USURY. Which means that CONgress has to have a perpetual deficit to authorize borrowing MORE with which to pay the outstanding interest due.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BUDGET-2015-BUD/pdf/BUDGET-2015-BUD.pdf
● 2015 Federal Deficit $312 billion (estimate)
● 2015 Debt Service $252 billion (estimate)

CONgress is borrowing MORE than it pays in interest on the existing debt.
And this INSANITY cannot be challenged pursuant to Clause 4, 14th amendment, USCON.

● 14th amendment, Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law . . . shall not be questioned.

Are you still not sure that the world is barking mad?

One last example, re: usury.

I previously wrote that USURY is mathematically unsustainable in a finite money token system.

http://www.monetary.org/a-brief-history-of-interest/2010/12

In 1836 John Whipple, an American lawyer, showed the impossibility of sustaining long term metallic usury in this fashion:

" If 5 English pennies... had been invested ... at 5 per cent compound interest from the beginning of the Christian era until the present time, it would amount in gold of standard fineness to 32,366,648,157 spheres of gold each eight thousand miles in diameter, or as large as the earth."

To pay usury over the long term, would require THIRTY TWO BILLION EARTH SIZED SPHERES OF GOLD. (Is that impossible enough for you?)

....
You, too, can play along . . .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_value

To further illustrate unsustainability of usury:
Future Worth (FV), based on Present Value (PV)

FV = PV x (1+ interest)^time
Let N = total sum of money tokens
Let PV = 0.1N = 10% of N, the amount invested at 6% per annum, compounded daily
How long does it take for the investment to match whole sum of money tokens?

(N/0.1N) = (1 + .06/365)^ time units
Solving for time units
time units = log (N/0.1N) / log (1 + .06/365)
time units = log (1/0.1)/ log (1 + .06/365)
14008.54 days
38.37 years
After this point, the outstanding obligation will exceed the whole set of money tokens, making repayment IMPOSSIBLE.

Can you now perceive why eCONomists are apologists for usury and have no trouble using a variable (current monies) as their unit of measure, and come up with "asset evaluations" that are nothing short of INSANE?

The Emperor (of eCONomics) IS Nekkid!

And to paraphrase "Soylent Green" - - -
"Tell them, tell them that dollar bills are PEOPLE."

[ozmirage]

END OF ?

In America's case, if 97% of Americans withdrew from FICA, the "dollar bill" would be undercapitalized and those non-participants could OBJECT to the tender of worthless notes. Thus billionaires* become zero-aires, over night. And since no government instituted to secure rights can tax rights, all those pesky taxes on privileges tied to "dollar bills" are eliminated.

Reducing the Federal Budget by 97% is a good start, not a finish. Withdrawing from socialism, usury, gambling, underwriting (insurance) and other abominations will have a massive effect on the economic system. Prepare for an economic [expletive deleted] storm, as the lack of tax revenues, inability to borrow, and other factors put the Federal government behind the Eight Ball. Without funds to pay for the military, it’s a good bet that the two Asian unWars would be effectively over. Hopefully, the personnel will be able to get transport back home. As to the material and weaponry abroad in bases, etc., - - - who can tell? Perhaps former adversaries will generously offer transport home.

The point at which the Federal Reserve Note is no longer fungible nor acceptable as tender, will mean the end of international trade denominated in “dollar bills.” It will affect the economies of countries that use the “dollar bill” as their local currency - such as Panama. It will cripple international trade in petroleum - until a new reference is established. And it will cause a massive shock to all usurers / financiers. I would not be surprised if they fomented wars just to get business back.

Sadly, the remedy, though effective, will not result in a peaceful transition, if human nature is any guide.

The nature of usury is cyclical destruction. The nature of socialism (collectivism) is enslavement and dispossession. The nature of democracy is eventual collapse, once the majority votes to dispossess the minority. Combine all three, and you get the current mess we’re in.

It Won't End Well.


(*If you assume that "wealthy" people "own" assets, remember this tidbit: pursuant to the constitution, only gold or silver coin "pay debt." Since 1933, no American "paid debt." No one can establish title to anything purchased with worthless notes. We're talking "the law" - not what we're told to believe. Billionaires truly become zero-aires, owning NOTHING, by law, once their paper wealth evaporates.)

[halcyon026]

I am really liking the Ubuntu movement out of Africa that is a no money, no government 'system'. They use contributionism for handling the communities needs. So say you take a community of 30,000. Each person works 3 hours per week. You now have 90,000 hours of community services happening every week for free. Think how much it would cost in our current system to pay out 90,000 hours to politicians/government workers each week.

This type of 'system' also does something else great for us. In a money system it's always about creating more jobs, in a no money society the opposite would be true, we would be designing ways to eliminate jobs, making robots and machines that do it for us. So we aren't paying for 90,000 hours a week to clean toilets, serve food, etc, we have machines doing that. We put those 90,000 hours into alternative energy, ending hunger, clean water around the world, technologies that benefit the people (not the Cabal).

Part of the way communities would work also is by generating 3x it's needs, so 1/3 goes to the local community, 2/3 goes out to the rest of the world. So at a larger scale we are still giving and receiving technologies, foods, etc from all around the world. Say the Bay Area might be designing the latest and greatest XYZ (whatever it is), the idea is that they don't keep it to themselves, they pass it along to the rest of us, then we get better/faster at what we do and that compounds across the globe. Imagine a world where all of us have access to the leading tech, no patents, no secrets, etc. & only working 3 hours per week. Star Trek!

Michael Tellinger is leading this Ubuntu movement, he also believes in ancient aliens, free energy technology being hidden from us, etc. So part of his push is also that we the people get those technologies, every home has free energy, replicators, etc. The technology already exists, it's just in the hands of Psycho's, IMO.


I believe going to a no money society and evolving as humans go hand in hand. If we evolve consciously, we won't need/use money.

I believe the barter system & money both have a weak point in them, that ruins the whole system. With both barter and money, 1 person or a group of persons can still capitalize and end up owning far more than others, and thus start controlling.
Say 25 farmers decide they want to control the food supply in a town, they could still use a barter system to their benefit and come out ahead & owning the town.

In a barter system, one group may still war with another. As long as items have a perceived value and you have to earn it, you will have people killing and fighting. You can still have corruption, people abusing the system.

In a barter system I'd also wonder if we'd be dumb enough to keep allow patents, which means 1 person or group of persons can have the corner on some fancy farming tool or water purifier and start demanding more to be traded for it. Something else we could eliminate in a no money society.

I honestly think the no money society is the best answer to a peaceful, non-Cabal, non-government, non-corruption society. If everyone has everything they need, access to all the latest tech, health care, etc, who would you need to war with?