JFK: the Assassination of John Kennedy

[Spellbound]

Other than 9/11, I'd think the JFK assassination would be the grand daddy of conspiracy theories. There's an entire cottage industry out there for it, yet no sub forum here at Avalon??

I watched this video last night....and rate it one of the better ones of late.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NlJQJUUqR4

Dave - Toronto

[Betty]

The Magical Mystery Tour Beattles video used to be on You Tube but is no longer. I had hoped to provide a link to it. In that video there is a segment where the Fab 4 don magician's robes, pointy hats and wands and goof around. The reason I wanted to link that, is because it symbolizes what's happening. The magicians are tricking people into believing things that aren't true. If you really want to know what happened in the JFK assassination, you're going to have to do some homework.
1. Hume's testimony to the Warren Commission.http://aarclibrary.org/publib/contents/wc/contents_wh2.htm[/URL]http://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh2/html/WC_Vol2_0178a.htm (http://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh2/html/WC_Vol2_78a.htm)
2. Parkland doctors testimonies.
Dr. Carricohttp://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/html/WC_Vol6_0006a.htm
Dr.Perryhttp://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/html/WC_Vol6_0009a.htm
Dr. Clarkhttp://http://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/html/WC_Vol6_0014b.htm
Here's the contents page for Volume 2 of Warren Commission testimony and you can read the rest.http://aarclibrary.org/publib/contents/wc/contents_wh6.htm
For the Parkland doctors testimony Arlen Specter traveled down to Dallas testimony and took each doctor's testimony individually. Later only Dr. Carrico (first doctor to see JFK and inserted the ET tube) and Dr. Perry (the doctor who performed the tracheotomy) traveled to Washington DC to give their testimony.
First is the fact that the Parkland doctors inserted chest tubes bilaterally and connected to underwater drainage. This meant both tubes had to have been inserted into the chest.
The doctors also did 3 cutdowns for IVs. One in each ankle and one in left antecubital space (inside elbow). The cut down that was done by an oral surgeon in an ankle infiltrated. Infiltrated means the fluid started going into the tissue and swelled. Another cutdown was not done because the other 2 IVs were flowing so well. JFK received 2 units O negative blood and IV fluid.
The body that was autopsied by Humes did not have holes where tubes were inserted into the body. The body he autopsied only had superficial lacerations and no swollen areas from an IV infiltration.
The body Hume's autopsied only had superficial wounds where chest tubes and IVs would have been inserted. The body he autopsied did not have the holes or medical wounds that the real JFK had received.
The constantly repeated story of Humes burning his notes is just a distraction. It distracts from the fact that Humes, Boswell, Finck and John Stringer (photographer) all saw a bullet hole 2.5 cm from midline at the occipital protuberance. The problem with this hole is that it would have been impossible in the real JFK body. If the bullet had hit there it would have gone through his jaw. It's not me saying this. It's the Clark panel and the HSCA saying a hole at the occipital protuberance 2.5cm right of midline was not possible, but the Clark Panel nor the HSCA ever thought the body was not JFK. Humes, Boswell, Finck and Stringer never waivered from their position that the body they autopsied had a hole at the occipital protuberance, 2.5 cm right of midline. The Clark Panel and HSCA of course never got to look at the body. They only had autopsy photos and x-rays. The story about the pictures and x-rays is a whole other topic.
When Dr. Hume's testified before the Warren Commission, he wasn't allowed to look at the autopsy photos, only 2 pictures from the Zapruder film were allowed to be seen. You'll read Dr. Hume's very detailed description of the brain. Dr. Hume was no dummy
This is a link to Dr. Hume's testimony to the HSCAhttps://www.maryferrell.org/pages/HSCA_Medical_Interviews.html
There is a recording and transcript.
What impressed me was how supportive Dr. Hume's was to all his staff. He spoke always supportive of everyone. The critics have taken advantage of him. If the critics would simply look at what he did find, they would find proof the body he autopsied was not JFK's.
If some of these links don't work google AARC Warren Commission testimony.
I'm no computer geek.

[Ines]

We know JFK was killed by the Elite, Cabal, Illuminati, KM (Khazarian Mafia)... whatever name you want to use, all those are the same subhumans entities that have been controlling the world for many centuries. The Bush family is only one of some bloodlines involved.

[enigma3]

The definitive video to watch is the 9 part series "The Men Who Killed Kennedy". Each part is roughly one hour long. If you don't have that kind of time, do watch parts 7, 8 and 9. A&E broadcast the first 7 episodes and then the elites stepped forward and prevented the airing of parts 8 and 9. Part 8 is the best one with part 9 the conclusion. Best video out there. A British company made it. The most damning evidence was the get together at Clint Murchison's (rich Dallas oil man) home the night before the murder. The British team tracked down the caterers and servers that worked the party and interviewed them. Quite a gathering.

Also let us remember that JFK was hit by 3 bullets from 3 different angles. Gov. Connally was hit by a fourth bullet from yet another different angle. A pedestrian was struck by a piece of granite from a bullet that hit a curb section, which broke off a piece that ricochted off his chin drawing blood. That's 5 shots accounted for.

I second the idea for a JFK sub forum.

[Betty]

How do you know that JFK was hit by 3 different bullets from 3 different angles?

[Spellbound]

The Men Who Killed Kennedy is a fantastic series (especially the banned final 3 episodes).

As for the number of shooters and bullets fired, I think there were many (certainly more than 3 bullets). I think Kennedy was being hunted.

Dave - Toronto

[conk]

there was a good video on YouTube for a while. Bush Link to Kennedy Assassination. Gone now. George Bush Sr. was a major player, that is undeniable.

[Wind]

That's what the remote viewers confirmed too... And also J. Edgar Hoover was part of it.
When Nazi Bush soon meets his heavenly maker, may he ask for forgiveness for his sins.

l2VT2zNLbmA
tIzUiOj5XO4

[KiwiElf]

How do you know that JFK was hit by 3 different bullets from 3 different angles?

Robert J. Groden has written several books & produced videos extensively about the case & conspiracy, the "elite" tried very hard to shut him down. He was also consultant on the movie, JFK, which reignited public interest in the case.

After DA Jim Garrison passed away, shortly after the movie was released (the primary investigator and consultant to the movie), DA Harry Connick Snr (yep, Dad of the famous singer/composer) took over the case. 4 of the 5 filing cabinets on the case had gone "missing."


Robert J. Groden (born November 22, 1945) is an American author who has written extensively about conspiracy theories regarding the assassination of U.S. President John F. Kennedy. His books include The Killing of a President: The Complete Photographic Record of the JFK Assassination, the Conspiracy, and the Cover-up; The Search for Lee Harvey Oswald: A Comprehensive Photographic Record; and JFK: The Case for Conspiracy (shorter version than his 1975 co-authored book).[1] Groden is a photo-optics technician who served as a photographic consultant for the House Select Committee on Assassinations.[2]

A harsh critic of the Warren Commission, he also testified at the 1975 United States President's Commission on CIA activities within the United States (sometimes referred to as the Rockefeller Commission).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_J._Groden

The slowed & enhanced version of the Zapbruder footage below has had the bottom & right hand side cropped (how convenient!) - it's actually clearer before they did this (almost impossible to find that original version - but it features on the documentary, THE KILLING OF AMERICA)

Other threads show irrefutable proof that the public copies of the Zapbruder footage & these enhanced versions have been tampered with.

In 1989, according to the late Milton William (Bill) Cooper, (ex Navy Intelligence and whistleblower, & author of Behold A Pale Horse - 1991), the unedited true version of the Zapbruder footage is kept from public view, and that all of the public versions have been "altered" (including the one below). Cooper swore under oath, that the fatal shot was fired by Kennedy's driver, Agent William Greer (Greer falsified his testimony to the Warren Commision, stating that he looked over his right shoulder after the fatal shot, which even in this video can be seen as untrue.) Cooper's claim has been debunked (but then, hasn't every conspiracy theory? ;))

After making these and other conspiracy claims (including correctly predicting 9/11), Cooper himself was gunned down and killed in his driveway after an "altercation" with police in November, 2001.

https://www.google.co.nz/#q=bill+cooper

Mwy6Q9_cUwc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mwy6Q9_cUwc

This is an adapted walkthrough of the Zapbruder footage extracted from Robert J. Groden's book, The Killing of a President:

First shot: Fired from behind and misses, striking the pavement (just before the limo goes behind the sign) but Kennedy reacts: he stops waving to the crowd

2nd & 3rd Shots: which was fired from the front, struck Kennedy in the throat (above), with the most logical point of origin being the grassy knoll. The third shot, fired a split second from behind, strikes Connally through the right armpit and chest (as the car emerges from the sign - Kennedy is grasping his throat).

4th shot: came from behind, striking Kennedy in the back, instantly pushing him downward and forward. (This was the path of the remarkable ‘magic bullet’ which supposedly travelled through Kennedy’s body, exiting his throat and striking Connally).

5th and fatal shot: came from the front, striking Kennedy squarely in the front right temple, causing massive fracturing, and forcing his head and upper torso violently rearward. The projectile exited from the rear of the head, leaving a wound the size of a fist. Also note the relative angle and position of Kennedy’s head at the point of impact (the damage from this shot could not have been caused by the weapon(s) firing the other shots - it took almost half of the top of Kennedy'd head off - the other shots left neat bullet holes. As the "other shots" came from two different directions, logically, there had to be at least two other shooters in addition to the fatal shot)

6th Shot: A half second after the fatal shot to Kennedy’s head, a sixth bullet struck Connally in the right wrist, fired from behind. Seconds after this, Jackie Kennedy attempts to exit the car over the rear boot. (Why would she be trying to get out of the car?)

6 shots, at least 3 assassins, all in different locations (and unlikely any of them were Lee Harvey Oswald)

I'm not about to theorise who fired the fatal 5th shot - which came from in front of Kennedy, as all of the various theories on that have been debunked at some stage, which doesn't necessarily make them all untrue (so what's new? ;), ie, suspects include but not limited to: the Driver William Greer, Jackie, the Agent behind the Limo (impossible), Oswald (impossible), Shooter on the Grassy Knoll, etc ).

[Spellbound]

One shooter in the school book depository (lower than the supposed Oswald perch)....one shooter on/around/inside the Daltex building across the street....one (possibly 2) shooter on the grassy knoll. That's my guess. Could have been more shooters (storm drain, etc). Agreed that none were Oswald. Jackie wasn't trying to exit the car, she was trying to retrieve her husband's brains out the back of the vehicle.

Dave - Toronto

[Bill Ryan]

.
Hi there, and my apologies for the rather late reply to the question to the mods. :)

Yes, there certainly could be a JFK section, agreed. It's always tricky to decide what new sections to add, though. There could easily be another 20-30, if one brainstorms a little. Even in Ufology or Conspiracy Research alone! Let alone Spirituality, the NWO, Politics, and more...

It's very much like the folder and subfolder structure on your computer: if it's too complex, then things start getting a little tangled, and harder to find or search for stuff. But I'm not disagreeing that there could be more... the question is what to feature, and what not to.

[TargeT]

One shooter in the school book depository (lower than the supposed Oswald perch)....one shooter on/around/inside the Daltex building across the street....one (possibly 2) shooter on the grassy knoll. That's my guess. Could have been more shooters (storm drain, etc). Agreed that none were Oswald. Jackie wasn't trying to exit the car, she was trying to retrieve her husband's brains out the back of the vehicle.

Dave - Toronto

Final (fatal) shooter: storm drain where the vehicle slowed down.... 7 or 8 "real" shooters in total, 1 fall guy.

[Bill Ryan]

Final (fatal) shooter: storm drain where the vehicle slowed down.... 7 or 8 "real" shooters in total, 1 fall guy.

Storm Drain, yes. (The shooter was Johnny Roselli.)

[blackdog]

Final (fatal) shooter: storm drain where the vehicle slowed down.... 7 or 8 "real" shooters in total, 1 fall guy.

I started to watch a video in which they said that we now know there were 8 shooters, and we know their names. I didnt get to watch the rest of the video though. Where is this coming from? Has new evidence come out?

I've always thought the drain shooter theory was said to be unlikely because they would have no field of vision. The shooter would only be able to see the car when it pulled right in front of him. He would have been at an awkward angle, and I believe I've seen, maybe even in The Men Who Killed Kennedy, someone looking into the sewer and showing how small it was and how difficult it would have been for someone to wait in there for the duration of the parade and to get into a decent shooting position.

[TargeT]

someone looking into the sewer and showing how small it was and how difficult it would have been for someone to wait in there for the duration of the parade and to get into a decent shooting position.

The car slowed to a stop at the drain location.. it would have been a shot from 10 or so feet away; the storm drain in 1963 was narrower and at least twice as tall as the drain is today (roads get repaved etc etc) so that attempt at "debunking" was actually rather comical.

This is, by far, the BEST video on the topic I have ever seen. It leaves no stone unturned and will comprehensively answer any and all questions concerning the JFK incident.

U1Qt6a-vaNM

The who, how & why of the JFK assassination. Taken from an historical perspective starting around world war 1 leading to present day. We hope after watching this video you will know more about what happened in the past and how the world is run today.



FYI
The below video will start at the portion that explains the shooter in the storm drain (1:49:00 into the 3+ hour film... your welcome ;) haha )
U1Qt6a-vaNM


This is one of the best documentaries I've ever seen, if you have not watched it; you OWE it to your self... I've watched it 3 times.

[Spellbound]

Rich Man's Trick is a VERY good documentary for JFK. Though for 9/11, I prefer The New Pearl Harbor doc. Both are outstanding. I've never been to Dealy Plaza, though from what I've heard from people who have been there, it's a lot smaller than one would think having only seen it in videos or pictures.

Dave - Toronto

¤=[Post Update]=¤



Final (fatal) shooter: storm drain where the vehicle slowed down.... 7 or 8 "real" shooters in total, 1 fall guy.

I started to watch a video in which they said that we now know there were 8 shooters, and we know their names. I didnt get to watch the rest of the video though. Where is this coming from? Has new evidence come out?

I've always thought the drain shooter theory was said to be unlikely because they would have no field of vision. The shooter would only be able to see the car when it pulled right in front of him. He would have been at an awkward angle, and I believe I've seen, maybe even in The Men Who Killed Kennedy, someone looking into the sewer and showing how small it was and how difficult it would have been for someone to wait in there for the duration of the parade and to get into a decent shooting position.

JFK was being hunted, from city to city, imo. They were going to get him in Chicago, and then in Miami, and finally they nailed him in Dallas.

Dave - Toronto

[Spellbound]

When you think about the storm drain theory...I think it would take someone with nerves of steel to do it from there and stay huddled down there for hours afterwards, hoping that someone doesn't clue in - hey, what about down there??!!....thereby leaving oneself exposed to be caught. The other shooters were long gone within seconds. In fact, I'd bet that entire area would have been under surveillance for days. I really don't know what to think of the storm drain theory.

Dave - Toronto

[TargeT]

When you think about the storm drain theory...I think it would take someone with nerves of steel to do it from there and stay huddled down there for hours afterwards, hoping that someone doesn't clue in - hey, what about down there??!!....thereby leaving oneself exposed to be caught. The other shooters were long gone within seconds. In fact, I'd bet that entire area would have been under surveillance for days. I really don't know what to think of the storm drain theory.

Dave - Toronto

I think you should watch the video again... I know human kinds memory retention is weak (and as I've said, I've watched it over 3 times now)

Here is your answer (the video will start at the right time to explain @ 1:52.27):
U1Qt6a-vaNM

a STORM drain isn't just a concrete box in the ground, it's connected by drainage tunnels... the shot was taken and the shooter crawled (crouched?) back through the 400 foot tunnel to an exit...

IMO, this is CIA to the T... a well planned assassination with MULTIPLE contingencies built in.

[blackdog]

This is, by far, the BEST video on the topic I have ever seen. It leaves no stone unturned and will comprehensively answer any and all questions concerning the JFK incident.

Thanks. This is the video I was asking about and had started to watch.

I think this guy is nuts tho. Who is he for starters? He's presenting highly controversial material as if it is proven fact, especially regarding JFK. I thought maybe there was some new research out there that I had missed, but apparently, this is his own research and his own opinions.

The guy in front of the Book Depository doesnt look like George Bush. I like how he uses analysis from a YouTube video by a guy who he assumes is a police officer.

It's funny how this video is making its way around the internet conspiracy world. Over three million views for some nobody? I wouldnt be surprised if this was intelligence propaganda. He uses a lot of facts but connects the dots in a reckless fashion.

The American elites are not Nazis. I keep hearing this. They used the Nazis. They arent gangsters either. They are opportunists.

The J.D. Tippitt theory is nutty. They stole a policeman's body to replace JFK's? Sounds like it would greatly increase the degree of difficulty of the operation.

I guess I'm just not buying it.

Thanks though. This is the video I was referring to and trying to find. :)

[KiwiElf]

I wonder if we'll ever really know? There was another copy/version of the Zapbruder footage floating around a while back, non-enhanced - (I think from Russia?) I downloaded it at the time.

I'm not entirely convinced Jackie is trying to get pieces of JFK's brain off the trunk lid either; (I know that's what she testified) - her body actions would say otherwise - she's forced back into the car by one of the agents running behind the car. It looked to me as if she would have kept going otherwise, ie exiting the car.

I also can't really see how the 5th fatal shot could have been fired from a drain either? The angles are all wrong? The shooter would have had to be standing or kneeling at the same height as Kennedy's head and firing from in front of the car (the shot would have to go between the two agents driving, & the Connally's and through the windscreen to hit JFK. That's one hell of a shot! Sorry, I don't buy it! ;) :shielddeflect:

[blackdog]

Regarding the storm drain theory, I think it is possible there was a shooter in there, but how can we know? Seems like the grassy knoll is still the likely place for the origin of the kill shot.

This video was on tv and most shows on tv about JFK are propaganda, but it shows someone getting into the drain.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IvdyF0gYHI

If this is the actual storm drain - and of course, it is possible that it is not - then the shooter would not be able to stand. His shooting stance would be awkward. And, how big are the tunnels for escape from this spot. At best, the shooter would be crawling a long way through less than ideal conditions. Rich Man's Trick shows footage of someone jumping out of a huge tunnel big enough for a man to walk through standing up.

One of the doctors in Rich Man's Trick says the exit wound was at the right rear of the skull, the same side as the entrance wound. That would mean the shot came from the front at roughly eye level or above, eliminating the grassy knoll and the sewer.

A lot of people say a lot of different things. This guy from the video is acting like he has an airtight case on every aspect of the event.

One thing I like about the storm drain theory is that, if the bullet came from below, entering the temple and then exiting immediately an inch or two above, that might explain the explosion effect. If entrance and exit were that close, it could have just destroyed that side of his skull, if the fractured points connected.

[TargeT]

If this is the actual storm drain - and of course, it is possible that it is not - then the shooter would not be able to stand. His shooting stance would be awkward. And, how big are the tunnels for escape from this spot. At best, the shooter would be crawling a long way through less than ideal conditions. Rich Man's Trick shows footage of someone jumping out of a huge tunnel big enough for a man to walk through standing up.

We don't train to shoot in comfortable positions ;) I qualify on an M16a2 every year.. I have to fire from prone supported (most comfortable, laying down with a sandbag to rest the rifle on) Pron unsupported (just laying on flat ground) and kneeling (pretty damn hard to do in body armor.. haha). When I was with a light scout infantry unit we would do live fire exercises that had you shooting from all kinds of strange positions, because... that's realistic (and it's not hard for some one who shoots a lot, I even got pretty good at drawing my side arm, leaning forward from the waist and shooting behind me during CQB drills... with body armor on you feel like a turtle, this was the fastest method to clear rear threats).

and the "huge tunnel" (at the very end) is typical of large city drainage systems; they have "clean out" points where all the... "stuff" that floats collects and maintenance workers go in routinely to clear it out.


One of the doctors in Rich Man's Trick says the exit wound was at the right rear of the skull, the same side as the entrance wound. That would mean the shot came from the front at roughly eye level or above, eliminating the grassy knoll and the sewer.

watch the film again, his (JFK) head was leaning far forward when the last shot was fired (supposedly due to the fact that he had already been shot twice and slumped forward as far as his back brace would allow)... IMO this indicates the round came from very low to be at "eye level" due to the tilt of his head.



This guy from the video is acting like he has an airtight case on every aspect of the event.

Yes, a bit too confident... I hardly ever am that confident about anything... haha

[KiwiElf]

Agreed except the grassy knoll shooter(s) would be almost side-on to Kennedy by the time the kill shot happened (the car's moved a few hundred meters by then - refer to the map below) - again, the angles are all wrong for that particular shot. Also doesn't explain the difference in "damage" ie two different weapons. That fatal shot literally "explodes" his head?

34100

34101

[blackdog]

We don't train to shoot in comfortable positions ;) I qualify on an M16a2 every year.. I have to fire from prone supported (most comfortable, laying down with a sandbag to rest the rifle on) Pron unsupported (just laying on flat ground) and kneeling (pretty damn hard to do in body armor.. haha). When I was with a light scout infantry unit we would do live fire exercises that had you shooting from all kinds of strange positions, because... that's realistic (and it's not hard for some one who shoots a lot, I even got pretty good at drawing my side arm, leaning forward from the waist and shooting behind me during CQB drills... with body armor on you feel like a turtle, this was the fastest method to clear rear threats).

Yeah, I'm not qualified to argue with someone who actually trains with guns. It just looks like it might even be too small to get a rifle in there without the end sticking out visibly into the street. The shooter would have to stay there for the duration of the parade, if not longer, in cramped conditions. Then he would have to wait until everyone left, or crawl out through what looks to be very small exit tunnels. I'm not saying it didnt happen. I'm just thinking about likelihood.


and the "huge tunnel" (at the very end) is typical of large city drainage systems; they have "clean out" points where all the... "stuff" that floats collects and maintenance workers go in routinely to clear it out.

Ok, but if that is the real sewer in the video, the tunnels may not have been big enough to even get through.


watch the film again, his (JFK) head was leaning far forward when the last shot was fired (supposedly due to the fact that he had already been shot twice and slumped forward as far as his back brace would allow)... IMO this indicates the round came from very low to be at "eye level" due to the tilt of his head.

Well, maybe you would know better than me, but you get people talking, like Gerald Posner, about the counter-intuitive reactions bodies have when they are shot. If I recall correctly, Posner argues that the shot came from behind and that it was the explosion of the exit wound that knocked JFK's head backwards. So, who knows when it comes to judging from the motion of the body.

...and that doctor is still in the video talking about the exit wound on the same side. It's just not consistent with the narrator's argument.


Yes, a bit too confident... I hardly ever am that confident about anything... haha

Good. Me either. :)

[KiwiElf]

See the pics I've added above to post #23 and carefully look at the angles and where the limo would have been at each shot relative to the shooters positions ;)

Also note Kennedy's head is pointed down and to the left, he's now slumped into Jackie when the fatal shot occurs.

Then compare that to the autopsy pics to get an idea of the angle.

A drain shooter would have to be firing upward (the angles don't work)

The other shots were elevated, from the rear and front/side, fired downward into the car

5th & fatal shot at JFK's head level & fired from slightly to the left & in front of JFK (not to mention at either very close range OR a very powerful weapon to do that kind of damage)

[blackdog]

I assume people are familiar with James Files(?). I dont know that any prominent researchers support his story, but I find it interesting:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr4vgHsmNEk

Any opinions? There seem to be a lot of debunkers out there.

[TargeT]

and the "huge tunnel" (at the very end) is typical of large city drainage systems; they have "clean out" points where all the... "stuff" that floats collects and maintenance workers go in routinely to clear it out.

Ok, but if that is the real sewer in the video, the tunnels may not have been big enough to even get through.

they can be a lot bigger than you'd think, here's a picture of a Dallas drainage tunnel:
http://alexplorer.net/urban/dallas/2008-04-20_134_rat-race.jpg

But, you're right, I'd like to a lot more footage and angles than that "discovery" (science propaganda) video showed.... I'm not saying it's absolutely the case, I'm just saying it seems very possible, that kind of area would have VERY large drainage tunnels due to the slope of the land above it (I was just there 2 weeks ago investigating the Dallas police shooting... well that wasn't my primary purpose, but a side activity).

I've learned a lot about water management as my property is a part of the islands "drainage" when heavy rains come.. which is often in the tropics.



If I recall correctly, Posner argues that the shot came from behind and that it was the explosion of the exit wound that knocked JFK's head backwards. So, who knows when it comes to judging from the motion of the body.

Admittedly: I've never shot a person at close range, but I have shot a lot of deer and caribou and moose and bear (some times at ranges FAR closer than I was comfortable with). & I've never seen something like that happen, the energy transfer begins the second the bullet enters, they are always knocked back and away from me (generally using a .308) if they stay on their feet, or drop to the ground in an "away from me" direction.

[blackdog]

This is something I never read in a JFK assassination book. Dealey, of Dealey Plaza fame, was a Freemason. It's almost like a Masonic plaza. 11/22/1963... 11+22=33

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Dealey:




"George Bannerman Dealey (September 18, 1859 – February 26, 1946) was a Dallas, Texas, businessman. Dealey was the long-time publisher of The Dallas Morning News and owner of the A. H. Belo Corporation. Dealey Plaza in Dallas is named in his honor."

"Dealey was a Thirty-third-degree Scottish Rite Mason, Knight Templar, Shriner, and member of the Red Cross of Constantine. He was a Presbyterian and Democrat. The New York Times called him the dean of American publishers. He died at his home in Dallas on February 26, 1946, of a coronary occlusion."

From the Dealey Lodge website at http://www.dealeylodge.com/about.html :




"Dealey was a Thirty-third-degree Scottish Rite Mason, Knight Templar, Shriner, and member of the Red Cross of Constantine. Dealey Plaza was named after George Bannerman Dealey, founder of the ‘Dallas Morning News,’ and a civic leader in the area. The Plaza happens to the location of the very first home in Dallas, along with it being the site of the first courthouse, store, post-office, and Freemason’s Lodge. In the plaza is an obelisk that has a plaque identifying the site as ‘the birthplace of Dallas.’ In 1935, the site was named Dealey Plaza, and was placed under the management and authority of the City of Dallas Park Board a year later."

http://i.imgur.com/XAqUYry.jpg?1 http://i.imgur.com/mP7ZPmd.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/FXi3n9N.jpg?1 http://i.imgur.com/jzePDEj.jpg?1


From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Zapruder :




"Abraham Zapruder...(May 15, 1905 – August 30, 1970) was an American manufacturer of women's clothing and private citizen, who became best known for his home movie filming U.S. President John F. Kennedy's motorcade passing through Dealey Plaza in Dallas, Texas on November 22, 1963, thereby inadvertently capturing the President's assassination."

"Zapruder was also a Freemason of the 33rd degree."

http://i.imgur.com/8wWMD1y.jpg?1

[TargeT]

See the pics I've added above to post #23 and carefully look at the angles and where the limo would have been at each shot relative to the shooters positions ;)

Also note Kennedy's head is pointed down and to the left, he's now slumped into Jackie when the fatal shot occurs.

Then compare that to the autopsy pics to get an idea of the angle.

A drain shooter would have to be firing upward (the angles don't work)

Why don't the angles work, just because of the autopsy photo?


The other shots were elevated, from the rear and front/side, fired downward into the car

5th & fatal shot at JFK's head level & fired from slightly to the left & in front of JFK (not to mention at either very close range OR a very powerful weapon to do that kind of damage)


I'm using the video, as there has been a lot of questions about JFK's body and possible re-constructive surgery ... so the autopsy photo's have been put into too much question for me. the video,however, is probably LESS tainted (not free of it, by any means).


From what I see on the video, the shot came from someone in the car on the right side (unlikely) or a lower angle, but definitely forward and to the right, the kinetic movement after the final shot struck "feels right" in my experience for a shot from the drain, forward of the car and off to the right.




This is something I never read in a JFK assassination book. Dealey, of Dealey Plaza fame, was a Freemason. It's almost like a Masonic plaza. 11/22/1963... 11+22=33


That whole area, TO THIS DAY is full of masonic crap.. huge glass pyramids.. obelisks.... I'm very sure that spot was picked for this reason and Zapruder was not at that very convenient spot by coincidence (Note, his LOS gave him footage of every single shooter's attempt.. to INCLUDE the drainage shot... coincidence? or collection of proof?)


I assume people are familiar with James Files(?).

I'll have to check this out later.. can you provide a summary? 2:48:23 is a lot to bite into with your indications of dubious material.

[blackdog]

I'll have to check this out later.. can you provide a summary? 2:48:23 is a lot to bite into with your indications of dubious material.

My bad. This guy claims to be the grassy knoll shooter. Here's a shorter clip:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hbcxd4NX-zw

It has been a while since I watched it, so I cant provide too much detail. It seemed to me at the time that he knew a lot about it for a guy who isnt exactly a professor.

There are other short clips on YouTube if you search for James Files. There is also a documentary that I cant find now. I'll post it if I find it. There's a new version out there that I havent seen, but the guy who owns the rights to this material now backs some obvious liars, like Judyth Baker.

[TargeT]

It seemed to me at the time that he knew a lot about it for a guy who isnt exactly a professor.

There are other short clips on YouTube if you search for James Files. There is also a documentary that I cant find now. I'll post it if I find it. There's a new version out there that I havent seen, but the guy who owns the rights to this material now backs some obvious liars, like Judyth Baker.

Gut feeling: disinfo agent.

The gnoll was never a possibility IMO.. the angles were all wrong... but it was a great distraction.

I'll still watch it, but I'm doubtful to begin with (hopefully not in a limiting way).

[blackdog]

Gut feeling: disinfo agent.

He probably is.....but maybe not.

I think this is the documentary that includes James Files. Like I said, I havent seen in it a while, but I remember thinking, even if it wasnt Files, this is similar to how I thought the assassination occurred.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cdo5zAhUCdg

[KiwiElf]

The angles don't work because of the autopsy photos and the position of the car when each shot is fired (to me, anyway. Did you refer back to the two pics I added?) ;) You need to compare the map, each step of the Zapbruder footage, each shot, where everyone's sitting and how Connally got hit, too.

The grassy knoll shooter works for the throat shot, but not the others.

The Zapbruder footage is clearer in the movie THE KILLING OF AMERICA - 1981 before they started "enhancing" it but you will have to step frame it - at least it's not cropped. It's still the best publicly available evidence. (You can even see the puff of smoke fired from the "alleged" weapon by the driver and his left arm reaching over his shoulder! Unfortunately, it was a "banned" video in the US - I wonder why? ;) - and it was removed from video shops shortly after its release, YouTube etc. - I have both. - It may be available on torrent sites). Can't see that in the "enhanced versions" ;)

I'd have to draw a pile of diagrams with a top down view to better explain it, but the 6 shots explained by Groden in my earlier post pretty well sum it up, and yeah I'm still favouring the driver theory for the fatal shot atm irrespective that it's been debunked (they've all been debunked). Why? Because atm, it still makes the most logical sense based on the evidence;

* the fact that the driver lied in his testimony
* the angles "work" - all of them,
* the massive fatal wound "works" (and Cooper's description of the weapon and why)
* the autopsy pics "work" (including the clear tampering of the earlier ones)
* Jackie only testified in the Warren Commission - she never spoke of it again. It's plausible she was coached with the "picking up her husband's brains" excuse (did she have a choice?)
* I'm convinced by Jackie's actions that she is trying to get out of the car - she doesn't look at the trunk, see his brains and then think - "oh.. I'll pick up his brain bits"; ;) she literally dumps JFK off her lap & jumps straight out without looking at what might be on the trunk (and is pushed back into the car again by the agent following the car).
* the tie in to Bethesda Naval Hospital - same hospital that Secretary Forrestal "fell out the window" to his death (Forrestal was an original member of MJ-12 and wanted to tell the public)

Then there's Cooper's testimony (Cooper didn't get to where he was in Naval Intelligence at the time if he was a liar or nutter and he was in a position to "know"). Why would he risk the flak that would come publicly if he was making it up? (Not to mention instantly making him a "dead man walking" - you need to read that section in Behold a Pale Horse) and then wade through all the other theories. Furthermore, it has been seen that the public version(s) of the Zapbruder footage has been tampered with, as he stated. (I saw one of the original video tapes that Cooper (& Lear) were showing at his lectures that he claims is hidden from the public - it does show it quite clearly and it is different from the ones you see on YouTube).

Of course "they'd" debunk it because that would be irrefutable proof that the "agency" was involved. An inside "government" job, involving Bush & Johnson etc as well. A Cabal killing. (Also JFK's threat to crush the CIA, expose MJ-12, and what was really on the Moon just before the shooting to me is the strongest motive. He had to be "expedited").

Just call me... very suspicious :)

[Spellbound]

When you think about the storm drain theory...I think it would take someone with nerves of steel to do it from there and stay huddled down there for hours afterwards, hoping that someone doesn't clue in - hey, what about down there??!!....thereby leaving oneself exposed to be caught. The other shooters were long gone within seconds. In fact, I'd bet that entire area would have been under surveillance for days. I really don't know what to think of the storm drain theory.

Dave - Toronto

I think you should watch the video again... I know human kinds memory retention is weak (and as I've said, I've watched it over 3 times now)

Here is your answer (the video will start at the right time to explain @ 1:52.27):
U1Qt6a-vaNM

a STORM drain isn't just a concrete box in the ground, it's connected by drainage tunnels... the shot was taken and the shooter crawled (crouched?) back through the 400 foot tunnel to an exit...

IMO, this is CIA to the T... a well planned assassination with MULTIPLE contingencies built in.

Thx TargeT. I just assumed the storm drain was simply a so called concrete box in the ground. Not sure the angle works from the drain, but it is very intriguing. I really must watch Rich Man's Trick again (imo up among the best JKF docs in existence).

Dave - Toronto

[Spellbound]

Avalon really does need a JFK subsection here in Conspiracy Research.

Dave - Toronto

[Spellbound]

Regarding the storm drain theory, I think it is possible there was a shooter in there, but how can we know? Seems like the grassy knoll is still the likely place for the origin of the kill shot.

This video was on tv and most shows on tv about JFK are propaganda, but it shows someone getting into the drain.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IvdyF0gYHI

If this is the actual storm drain - and of course, it is possible that it is not - then the shooter would not be able to stand. His shooting stance would be awkward. And, how big are the tunnels for escape from this spot. At best, the shooter would be crawling a long way through less than ideal conditions. Rich Man's Trick shows footage of someone jumping out of a huge tunnel big enough for a man to walk through standing up.

One of the doctors in Rich Man's Trick says the exit wound was at the right rear of the skull, the same side as the entrance wound. That would mean the shot came from the front at roughly eye level or above, eliminating the grassy knoll and the sewer.

A lot of people say a lot of different things. This guy from the video is acting like he has an airtight case on every aspect of the event.

One thing I like about the storm drain theory is that, if the bullet came from below, entering the temple and then exiting immediately an inch or two above, that might explain the explosion effect. If entrance and exit were that close, it could have just destroyed that side of his skull, if the fractured points connected.

Interesting video, I'd not see that before. Thing is, as another poster said, the roadway has been paved and repaved several times over the years, thereby lessening the available line of sight with each paving over. Also, I had no idea there were 2 other storm drains at the overpass (well, one really...as the left side one wasn't there in 1963 according to Discovery). That one drain on the right side...situated higher than the grassy knoll....which Discovery says could have a line of sight but was likely blocked by trees or people....that angle could work.

Dave - Toronto

[TargeT]

Then there's Cooper's testimony (Cooper didn't get to where he was in Naval Intelligence at the time if he was a liar or nutter and he was in a position to "know"). Why would he risk the flak that would come publicly if he was making it up? (Not to mention instantly making hime a "dead man walking" - you need to read that section in Behold a Pale Horse) and then wade through all the other theories. Furthermore, it has been seen that the public version(s) of the Zapbruder footage has been tampered with, as he stated. (I saw one of the original video tapes that Cooper (& Lear) were showing at his lectures that he claims is hidden from the public - it does show it quite clearly and it is different from the ones you see on YouTube).

Of course "they'd" debunk it because that would be irrefutable proof that the "agency" was involved. An inside "government" job, involving Bush & Johnson etc as well. A Cabal killing. (Also JFK's threat to expose MJ-12, crush the CIA and what was really on the Moon just before the shooting to me is the strongest motive. He had to be "expedited").

Just call me... very suspicious :)

I like that one too, but I'm not committed to either, and from what I see I still think the drain shot was a viable option. I don't consider that other weapon a "shot", it's far more exotic and the damage shown support it's description but I've never seen anything like that so I can't say much about it.

too far gone, too little evidence.. lots of guesses.

[KiwiElf]

I'm open to a better theory too - I just haven't seen it yet :). Here's the "juicy" extracts from Cooper's book & statements: (I'll tidy it up a bit later ;)) Still pretty compelling info IMO

“...MJ-12 assassinated
President Kennedy when
he informed them that he
was going to tell the public
all the facts of the alien
presence. He was killed by
the Secret Service agent
driving his car, and it is
plainly visible in the film
held from public view...”

"They killed President Kennedy. Between
‘70 and ‘73, in Operation Majority,
it stated verbatim that President
Kennedy ordered MJ-12 to cease the importation
and sale of drugs to the American
people, that he ordered them to implement
a plan to reveal the presence of
aliens to the American people within the
following year. His assassination was ordered
by the policy committee of the
Vilderbergers. MJ-12 implemented the
plan and carried it out in Dallas. It involved
agents of the CIA, Division-5 of
the FBI, the Secret Service, and the Office
of Naval Intelligence (ONI).
President Kennedy was killed by the
driver of his car, Agent William Greer,
who used a recoilless, electrically-operated,
gas-powered assassination pistol that
was specially built by the CIA to assassinate
people at close range. It fired an
explosive pellet which injected a large
amount of shellfish poison into the brain,
and that is why, in the documents, it stated
that President Kennedy’s brain was removed.
If you’ve studied the case, you
will find that indeed his brain disappeared
[from the National Archives]. The reason
for that is so that they would not find the
particles of the exploding pellet or the
shellfish poison in his brain which would
have proved conclusively that Lee Harvey
Oswald was not the assassin. In fact, Lee
Harvey Oswald never fired a shot, he was
the patsy.”
Cooper paused briefly, and a woman in
the audience asked the obvious question,
“Why haven’t you been assassinated?”
“If they were to kill me right now,
what would you think?” Cooper posed.
“That it’s the truth,” several people
chimed."

"Cooper then opened up the floor to
questions and answers. Due to limited
space, only questions pertaining to the
JFK assassination have been included.
Q What about all the people in the press
and others who were in Dallas and who
saw the assassination? Couldn’t they tell
where the shot came from? Why didn’t
they come forward? There must have
been plenty...
A There were. We know that there
were at least 18 [witnesses] who were
all murdered within two years of the
event. The odds of that happening are
1-in-300,000 trillion.

Q Why did the driver have to shoot
Kennedy?”
A Because the other fools missed! There
were a total of three shots fired at [that hit]
President Kennedy; one hit him in the
throat and another in the back and didn’t
kill him. Two other shots hit John Connally
and one missed. The one that was fired
from the grassy knoll hit the president in
the throat. The other shots came from
directly behind the limousine, not the
school book depository building, and hit
both Kennedy & Governor Connally.
Governor Connally, in intelligence community
circles, was known as a ‘can do’
man, because he took two hits and still
kept his mouth shut.

Q How is it that the driver, sitting on the
front, left-hand side of the car was able to
blow off the right side of Kennedy’s brain
when the bullet actually entered in, and it
would have been virtually impossible...
A For those of you who have been listening
to all these talk show hosts, whose
job it is to be a talk show host, and who
have not done any legitimate research
into this, if you come to the workshop, I
will show you, on the tape, how it was
done. You will see that Kennedy was, in
fact, slumped over against Jackie, his
head was turned [to the left and down], —
it was very simple. It was easy and you
will see it with your own eyes.”

Q Why has no one else had come forward
with the information [Cooper was
disseminating] and why have those who
knew it kept it secret for so long?
A It hasn’t been, I’m talking about it now.
Bill English was talking about it eight years
ago, but everybody laughed at Bill English.
John Lear’s been talking about it for three
years, and everybody laughed at him. Now
there’s so many people who have been
talking about it, the public are starting to
listen, and it’s about time. Because it’s
about time that we quit being fools, and
that’s exactly what they think we are, and
we prove it to them every day.”

Q In the film of the assassination, which
was examined greatly by experts, why
didn’t they conclude that Kennedy’s driver
shot him?”
A Examined by whom greatly? Most of
the film that you can purchase has that
segment cut out, and you can always tell it
by the person running in the background,
they’ll run up to here... all of a sudden
they’ll be down here... running.
You will see in most of the clips that
you’ve ever seen on television, or in
the movies, or that you’re able to get
your hands on, you’ll see William Greer
start to turn like this...” then a muffled
comment from the audience, to which
Cooper answered,
“That’s because they clipped it out!
And on a lot of them, I’ll bet most of
you, every time you’ve seen the clip on
television, never looked at the driver
anyway. If you’re really honest with
yourself, and with me, you know your
eyes were right on Kennedy.”

Q Why was the shellfish poison necessary?
A lot of his brain was blown off
anyway.”
A The shellfish poison? If you go to kill
someone, one thing I’ve learned when I
went to Vietnam; just because you shoot
someone doesn’t mean they’re going to
die. And if they don’t die, they’re going
to be mad. And if they’ve got a gun,
you’re dead. So you want the first time to
be the last time. So if you really want to
kill somebody you don’t play around. If
you really want to kill somebody... you
kill them, you don’t play, you make sure
that when you shoot them, they’re dead.
That way they can’t hurt you at all.

Q Why didn’t Jackie Kennedy report
it? [the source of the lethal shot]
A Who’s she going to tell? The Secret
Service just killed her husband, and
they’re assigned to protect the President.
Also, who had her children? The
same Secret Service had her children at
the time.”

[KiwiElf]

Another reason? Cooper had numerous attempts made on his life - (before he was finally gunned down) - after he came out with this. The other "theorists" haven't. I tend to take notice of whistle blowers who get "disappeared" shortly after they "blow the whistle". (Look at the number of people who have mysteriously been "disappeared" for challenging or exposing the Clintons?) I see a pattern that's difficult to ignore. ;)

[Spellbound]

As much as I do think there was a conspiracy to kill Kennedy (and I don't think Oswald fired as shot).....I have a very hard time giving any credence to the theory that the limo driver shot him in plain site in front of thousands of people with no one seeing it happen. That just doesn't jive for me. However, there is another theory that the kill shot was fired (accidentally) from a secret service agent's gun when he was reacting to the hoopla in the moment (apparently he was handling a gun that was extremely sensitive that went off).

Dave - Toronto

[KiwiElf]

It would be interesting to speculate how different the world would be if this had never happened. Where would JFK have lead us I wonder? Certainly this planet took a turn down a very dark path because of it. Maybe now, karma is beginning to catch up with the perpetrators.

[KiwiElf]

As much as I do think there was a conspiracy to kill Kennedy (and I don't think Oswald fired as shot).....I have a very hard time giving any credence to the theory that the limo driver shot him in plain site in front of thousands of people with no one seeing it happen. That just doesn't jive for me. However, there is another theory that the kill shot was fired (accidentally) from a secret service agent's gun when he was reacting to the hoopla in the moment (apparently he was handling a gun that was extremely sensitive that went off).

Dave - Toronto

Yep, the book you refer to is "Mortal Error:The Shot That Killed JFK": I've got it, read it ... and buried it :)


Mortal Error: The Shot That Killed JFK is a 1992 non-fiction book by Bonar Menninger outlining a theory by sharpshooter, gunsmith and ballistics expert Howard Donahue that a Secret Service agent accidentally fired the shot that actually killed President John F. Kennedy.[1][2] Mortal Error was published by St Martin's Press in hardback, paperback, and audiobook.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_Error

...once the autopsy photos were released, that's one of the "theories" that quickly fell apart, despite being very detailed. As it was largely based on the Warren Commission findings, it reached some equally flawed conclusions. It was established way before the movie "JFK", that the kill shot came from in front of Kennedy, it would have been impossible for the agent you mention to have done it, accidentally or otherwise, as he was in one of the following cars behind the limo (JFK).

(Possible he may have fired one of the other shots, but accidentally? Hmmmmmmm :thumbsdown:)

Many extraordinary things happen in plain sight - look at 9-11! (in JFK's case, it might explain the "disappearing" of the 18 key witnesses, many of who were standing "close by") :silent:

We have to remember that this whole thing went down in less than nine seconds. Witnesses were often bullied, harrassed and challenged by "authorities" on what they claim they saw.

The fact that so many items (& witnesses) were buried, hidden, distorted or lost indicates a conspiracy at the highest level, from the fudging of Oswald's photos holding a gun, the "unusual" (and Illegal) autopsy procedure, to the "matting" of the back of Kennedy's "official" skull photos, and the Warren Commission Report itself. The simple fact that the Zapbruder footage was so obviously tampered with, indicates there is something in that film that the perpetrators don't want us to see at any cost. :shielddeflect:

If you really want to get into this, be prepared to spend a lot of time, and read a lot of books, and study a lot of pictures & videos :sherlock:

(Have just checked - Pirate Bay does have a copy of THE KILLING OF AMERICA, but I have no idea of the quality - am DL it now and will let you know shortly - I am a nawti Elf! ;)

EDIT: Re the above download from PB; It's excellent quality and clearly shows "what's going on" - MKV format, 724 MB. The "un-enhanced" Zapbruder footage starts at the 15:23 mark - watch it at normal speed, then slow it down - VLC is a good player. (Some background leading up to this beforehand). Grab it while you can! :)

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Final (fatal) shooter: storm drain where the vehicle slowed down.... 7 or 8 "real" shooters in total, 1 fall guy.



Storm Drain, yes. (The shooter was Johnny Roselli.)

The X-Files certainly made allusions to the storm-drain theory in this 1996 episode 'Musings of a Cigarette Smoking Man'. It's as good a possibility as any:

Gzpn5m8AINs

(also, re James Files - seen and looked at this closely when the info came out, he also remains a strong possibility. Interesting, James Files - X-Files...)lol

Jim Marrs has looked at the storm-drain shooter angle too:


I have heard about the possibility of a shot from the storm drain for many years and even met the daughter of a woman who said she and friends witnessed someone firing from the drain opening. But the mother refused to be interviewed and I have been unable to substantiate this story. I have always hesitated to discuss the storm drain because many years ago one of the earliest and best researchers, Penn Jones Jr., editor of the Midlothian Mirror, was ridiculed incessantly. Debunkers said he was claiming that Kennedy was shot "from a sewer." I have myself stood down in the storm drain which is located a mere six feet from the point of Kennedy’s fatal head shot. I could comfortably stand in this drain (I’m not too tall being 5’7”) and it would have been an easy pistol shot to a person sitting upright in an open convertible. Some witnesses said that one of the shots sounded hollow, had a ringing sound to it. And it could have been possible to leave the storm drain via a large drain pipe which connected to an opening behind the wooden picket fence on the notorious Grassy Knoll. But did a shot come from this drain? At the moment, there is not enough evidence to state yes, but it remains an interesting premise.

An interesting sidebar to this speculation is the fact that in the 1980s a section running vertically down the Grassy knoll collapsed. The Dallas Street Dept. found that someone had dug up a section of this drain pipe and cut away a piece about 2 feet X 4 feet and replaced the cut section. But instead of welding the section back, whoever did this simply replaced the section on the pipe and over time it gave way causing a collapse at that point. There was some speculation that perhaps an assassin had stashed his weapon in the drain pipe and was retrieved surreptitiously at a later date. This drain was connected to the storm drain at the foot of the Grassy Knoll.

Source: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread313169/pg1

Personally, I've changed my mind several times over the years on the details of the assassination. We have to be flexible when dealing with complex cases like this. There's still so much that is not known. What makes it often worse is the 'knowns', such as they are, sometimes conflict with other knowns. Owing to the huge controversy and importance of this watershed event, I would be all for a JFK-dedicated sub-forum. In the same vein, a Roswell sub-forum would be good also.

[Spellbound]

'Musings of a Cigarette Smoking Man' was my favorite episode of X Files.

Btw, I'm downloading the torrent now for The Killing Of America....thx for the tip.

Dave - Toronto

[Spellbound]

C'mon Avalon mods...give us a sub-forum for the JFK assassination!!! As you can see, there's good interest here. Only seems fitting to have our own spot for multiple threads on the subject, doncha think??

Dave - Toronto

[blackdog]

I have myself stood down in the storm drain which is located a mere six feet from the point of Kennedy’s fatal head shot. I could comfortably stand in this drain (I’m not too tall being 5’7”) and it would have been an easy pistol shot to a person sitting upright in an open convertible.

The Discovery documentary shows the drain coming up to waist-high on this man. Someone is lying, or they have changed the drain substantially.

http://i.imgur.com/47fHnAZm.png

The drain is 6 feet from the head shot? Does that mean six feet from the car? If you look on Google Earth, things look much different.

http://i.imgur.com/gEY4nIkl.png The drain is up past that car, closer to the street light than the stairs.

http://i.imgur.com/iCVtVJol.png

A shooter in that drain probably could not even see JFK from there. And, if we want to say they stopped the car for the kill shot, they would have stopped it much closer to the drain.

Mary Moorman pic, "capturing the presidential limousine a fraction of a second after the fatal shot":
http://i.imgur.com/YtXiWUbl.jpg The drain is not right next to the car. It is down past those stairs. The shooter would have had to shoot through the windshield and the people in front of JFK. There's a much clearer shot from the fence.

I've heard Jim Marrs play fast and loose with the facts before.

I must be missing something regarding this drain theory.

[Spellbound]

I'm actually more intrigued by the 2nd storm drain to the right of the overpass (interesting the the rumor that a car was parked over the man-hole cover for that drain at the time thereby preventing anyone from looking inside).

Dave - Toronto

[Betty]

Other than 9/11, I'd think the JFK assassination would be the grand daddy of conspiracy theories. There's an entire cottage industry out there for it, yet no sub forum here at Avalon??

I watched this video last night....and rate it one of the better ones of late.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NlJQJUUqR4

Dave - Toronto

I'm sorry but I must disagree with you regarding this video. I find it cleverly twists the truth.
Regarding Dr. Humes, he did burn his notes. Does it matter since the body he did the autopsy on was not Kennedy's? The real Kennedy had 2 chest tubes inserted and 3 cutdown's done for IV's none of these insertional wounds were present in the body he autopsied.
Dr. Humes attempted to talk about the medical wounds but was interrupted by other members of the medical subcommittee for the HSCA. You need to read this. For the HSCA a group of doctors were gathered to discuss and listen to what had happened.
Kilduff points to his right forehead as if that is where the bullet entered. None of the Parkland doctors said in their notes following the autopsy that a bullet entered the right forehead. Dr. Mccelland state a bullet entered the left temple and exited the right parietal area. Dr. Mccelland recanted this saying Dr. Jenkins had told him he felt a bullet wound to the left temple. Dr. Jenkins said he had felt a bullet wound in the left temple in his Warren Commission testimony. The Parkland doctors were interviewed individually by Arlen Specter in Dallas. To know what the Parkland doctors said you have to read their testimony. Also I would like to point out Kilduff went on to work for LBJ. Also there is a video showing that the trajectory from the grassy knoll would have resulted in a left parietal exit wound not a right parietal head wound.
Regarding the 2 FBI agents: The video doesn't say their names, as I recall, but they were Siebert and O'Neill. Humes was confronted with what they said and he said he never said surgery.
This video states the autopsy starts at 6pm. Kellerman was the officer in charge that day. He stated in WC testimony after a memory lapse that the autopsy started at 7:30pm. Humes also testified the autopsy started at 7:30pm.
Officer of the day Dennis David said in a radio interview that a shipping casket with the president's body arrived around 6pm. Dennis also testified that as he was climbing the stairs he saw the ambulance carrying the bronze casket arrive. Jackie Kennedy emerged with her blood soaked pink suit. The bronze casket arrived the same time autopsy x-rays were being carried to the developing room.
David Lifton states the body was removed from the airplane while LBJ was being sworn in. If the body that was autopsied was Kennedy's it would have chest tube wounds and IV wounds. (Have I said that enough times?)
I would like to add a couple of personal notes here.
Allen Dulles said words to the effect, "The American people don't read". I've learned that too.

[TargeT]

And, if we want to say they stopped the car for the kill shot, they would have stopped it much closer to the drain.


any closer and you wouldn't have a good angle for the shot, gotta be able to get an angle that can see over the door frame (not that a car door stops a rifle round..)

[blackdog]

any closer and you wouldn't have a good angle for the shot, gotta be able to get an angle that can see over the door frame (not that a car door stops a rifle round..)

He would be shooting through the windshield. If the shooter could see JFK at all, his view would have been obstructed by the front of the car and the other passengers. He also would have had to stick the gun into the street, unless there is an insane amount of room in there that we dont know about. I dont really see any way this is close to possible.

[blackdog]

None of the Parkland doctors said in their notes following the autopsy that a bullet entered the right forehead. Dr. Mccelland state a bullet entered the left temple and exited the right parietal area. Dr. Mccelland recanted this saying Dr. Jenkins had told him he felt a bullet wound to the left temple. Dr. Jenkins said he had felt a bullet wound in the left temple in his Warren Commission testimony. The Parkland doctors were interviewed individually by Arlen Specter in Dallas. To know what the Parkland doctors said you have to read their testimony. Also I would like to point out Kilduff went on to work for LBJ. Also there is a video showing that the trajectory from the grassy knoll would have resulted in a left parietal exit wound not a right parietal head wound.

So what are you saying happened? A shot from the left? The doctors seem to contradict each other, the autopsy photos, and the Zapruder film, from my experience. Who are we supposed to believe?

If they had the ability to alter the Zapruder film that much and that effectively, they could have left out the explosive wound in the right temple and made it look like a shot from above and behind, like the story they wanted us to believe. If there was no explosive wound in the front right, why would they alter it to look like there was and then give us the Oswald story?

Arlen Specter also came up with the magic bullet theory.

Edit: Or are you saying these doctors were describing wounds in a body that was not JFK's?

[jimrich]

Oh sure, let's bring those killers to justice! The Super Rich Rulers can't wait for your next move!!! :(

[KiwiElf]

They couldn't alter the Zapbruder footage too much in the day as it was 8mm film. (We need to keep in mind it was hidden for years. Early "tampering" was mostly limited to cropping & splicing - most of the "major" tampering has been done recently including the enhanced versions). Initially "they" altered the sequence of frames (as stills), presenting them in reverse order to make it look like the official conclusion, ie that Oswald did it. A blatant case of bending or altering the facts to fit the pre-ordained theory.

When the actual movie footage became available (most likely not the original but a copy) and it was played as a movie, it became evident that certain frames had been chopped out (just split seconds but enough to hide or disguise the incriminating evidence which occurs near the fatal shot. Even in the version I cited (from THE KILLING OF AMERICA), the frames minutely "jump".

The autopsy photos would appear to indicate that the fatal shot did come from the front and slightly to the left of Kennedy, at very close range (ie IN the car) - That's why I don't buy the drain theory, amongst the other reasons cited) - refer back to the images at post #23 and here. Look at the Zapbruder film just before the fatal shot (below) - Kennedy's head is turned to the left and downward. He's slumped against Jackie, now putting his head in the middle of the car, not the far right of the car as it was before the shooting. (Also note how many of these frames we see today, like the one below, have the two agents in front cropped out???)

34118

This a model based on the autopsy photos (Ironically, the original diagrams of the head wound weren't too far off, just in the wrong direction, ie shot fired from back to the front).

34117

34116

More here:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/head.htm

[Atlas]

Also note how many of these frames we see today, like the one below, have the two agents in front cropped out???
History Channel banned censored episode The Men Who Killed Kennedy: "The Smoking Guns"
tx3mVMSSuzk

[KiwiElf]

Well spoken words by Mr Fetzer, Atlas - the coverup still continues to this day, 53 years after the fact.

* Note: ONI is mentioned again (Office of Naval Intelligence) - this is effectively who Cooper worked for and ONI could be linked to Bethesda Naval Hospital

* Despite loving that episode of the X-FILES too, I feel, that if it had been the "correct theory" (alluded to by a younger Smoking Man shooting from the drain), it would not have been "allowed" to be shown. ;)

"From the Warren Commission, (now
officially disproved), four separate governmental groups and one
independent, non-federal investigation have undertaken to
discern the facts about the killing of JFK. The last official
verdict, released in 1979 by the House Select Committee, stated
that, “...President John F Kennedy was probably assassinated as
a result of a conspiracy.”

[sdv]

This was in the news today ...

The assassination of John F Kennedy in 1963 was an inside job, according to a deathbed confession given to the veteran film director Oliver Stone.
...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3762617/JFK-assassination-inside-job-Ex-government-agent-claimed-team-killed-president-remarkable-deathbed-confession-director-Oliver-Stone.html

[Cidersomerset]

From todays headline page and news papers ....Related to a upcoming book on Oliver Stone....


Former member of Kennedy's Presidential Security Team: JFK Assassination was an Inside Job

By David on 29 August 2016 GMT

https://www.davidicke.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/get-attachment-19-587x391.jpg

In death-bed confession to director Oliver Stone, a former member of Kennedy’s
security team has stated that the JFK assassination was an inside job and that a
member of his own team had been responsible for firing on the president.

Read more: Former member of Kennedy’s Presidential Security Team: JFK
Assassination was an Inside Job

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3762617/JFK-assassination-inside-job-Ex-government-agent-claimed-team-killed-president-remarkable-deathbed-confession-director-Oliver-Stone.html

'JFK assassination was an inside job': Ex-government agent claimed to Oliver Stone

ksSzPnwLSrI
Published on 29 Aug 2016
'JFK assassination was an inside job': Ex-government agent claimed 'someone from
his team' killed the president in remarkable deathbed confession to director Oliver Stone


======================================================
======================================================

MAIL ON LINE.....

EXCLUSIVE -
'JFK assassination was an inside job': Ex-government agent claimed 'someone from his
team' killed the president in remarkable deathbed confession to director Oliver Stone
An ex-presidential guard contacted Oliver Stone, who directed JFK biopic
He claimed 'somebody from his team' assassinated the president in 1963
Stone said he was convinced by his 'military jargon' and intricate details
Lee Harvey Oswald was accused of shooting JFK from a nearby building

By Dalya Alberge For Mailonline

Published: 22:40, 28 August 2016 | Updated: 23:56, 28 August 2016

The assassination of John F Kennedy in 1963 was an inside job, according to a deathbed
confession given to the veteran film director Oliver Stone.After making his acclaimed
film JFK - which was sympathetic to conspiracy theories about the murder - Stone was
contacted by a man claiming to have been a former member of the presidential security
team.Dying of cancer, the man wanted to share a secret that he had until then only told
his son – that 'somebody from his own team… had fired on the President'.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3762617/JFK-assassination-inside-job-Ex-government-agent-claimed-team-killed-president-remarkable-deathbed-confession-director-Oliver-Stone.html#ixzz4IihtcVZb
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

[KiwiElf]

With everything else going down at the moment, Great Timing Oliver Stone! :):highfive:

[Betty]

Arlen Specter also came up with the magic bullet theory.

Edit: Or are you saying these doctors were describing wounds in a body that was not JFK's?

So what are you saying happened? A shot from the left? The doctors seem to contradict each other, the autopsy photos, and the Zapruder film, from my experience. Who are we supposed to believe?

If they had the ability to alter the Zapruder film that much and that effectively, they could have left out the explosive wound in the right temple and made it look like a shot from above and behind, like the story they wanted us to believe. If there was no explosive wound in the front right, why would they alter it to look like there was and then give us the Oswald story?

Yes, I'm saying the bullet entered the left temple and exited the right parietal area. The video shows where the Parkland doctors saw the exit wound.
All the autopsy findings have to be negated since the body that was officially autopsied was not Kennedy's. Kennedy had bilateral chest tube wounds and 3 cutdowns for intravenous fluid. One of Kennedy's cutdowns infiltrated causing swelling in one of the ankles. None of these medical wounds were found on the body Humes autopsied.
Now for the story of the autopsy photos. The person who photographed the body at the Humes autopsy was John Stringer. The perfect person. He had top secret clearance. He was so good his photographs were published in books. He had received commendations for great work he had done in the past. He used a very old camera and he had to stand on a tripod. He wasn't allowed to put labels on his photos because they told him to hurry so much. He wasn't allowed to develop his photos. He was told it was top secret. The secret service took all the film. They first took it to the Executive Office Building where the secret service had their offices. They also had their own film developing room. Officially they said they took the film to Anacostia naval base. In the '90's the ARRB question workers at Anacostia. I forget Sandy's last name but she said she developed some film for the Secret Service but the autopsy photos the ARRB showed her were not the ones she developed. I believe the Secret Service developed the film in their own lab.
The autopsy photos were not allowed to be shown at the Warren Commission hearings per the Kennedy family request. So to give his testimony Dr. Humes had a young student by the name of Rydberg draw drawing according to Hume's memory.
In the '70's Andy Purdy (who now goes by the name Donald Purdy) has his name on the records supposedly of the testimony of 3 photographers all of whom said they took photos at the Kennedy assassination. John Stringer, Robert Knudsen, and Floyd Riebe.
The information on John Stringer that I earlier wrote was from his ARRB testimony in the 1990's. The ARRB asked about John's testimony that Purdy had recorded for the HSCA in the 70's. John Stringer stated he did not recall giving any testimony to anyone and that the trip to the National Archives in the 70's he did not recall. Besides that there fundamental errors in the testimony recorded. Like his daughter's name and address.
Purdy also has on record the testimony of Floyd Riebe. Floyd Riebe was Stringer's assistant. He hadn't even graduated yet from photography school. Stringer stated that Floyd Riebe was only allowed or asked to take some pictures of the crowd. Stringer states Riebe started taking pictures but then the secret service took away the small camera he had and ripped the film out of it.
So anyway in Riebe's HSCA testimony he goes on and on about flash bulbs and that the FBI or SS was watching and counting how many flash bulbs he used.
Riebe had to correct this when he gave his testimony to the ARRB. When Riebe has given interviews or testimony he's constantly contradicting him self. States flash bulbs when speed lights were used. Tells one person he took all the far shots and another all the close shots. When asked what camera he used he gives a list. Besides that Stringer states absolutely that Riebe was only an assisstant!
The third person, Robert Knudsen. Before the Kennedys there was only one White House photographer. With the Kennedys being so active they needed 2 photographers, Robert Knudsen and Cecil Stoughton. The day of the assassination Robert Knudsen was home nursing an eye infection. When he heard the news he rushed down to Dallas.
There is a typed transcript of Knudsen's testimony to the HSCA. The recording that the government has labeled as Knudsen's testimony is bizarre. It starts out as a secretary talking into a dictaphone thing, then it goes on to recording of congressional committees. The thing is that at the National Archives when you ask for this recording they give it to saying it is Knudsen's testimony not there any errors on it. Knudsen's wife stated he was upset he was never given a transcript of his testimony.
What he did in Dallas was reported by his wife, daughter and son to the ARRB. Knudsen said taking the autopsy photos was the hardest thing he had ever done.
John Stringer was the photographer at the Hume's autopsy.
Robert Knudsen was the photographer at the JFK autopsy.
Floyd Riebe did not take photos as either autopsy.
By the way that comment I made about Americans don't read, I shouldn't have said that. Maybe if I wrote better, people wound understand what I'm trying to say!!!

[Betty]

Regarding the president's brain, Hume's stated that the autopsy of the brain was done 1 or 2 days later. The brain was then given to Dr. Burkley http://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol7/pdf/HSCA_Vol7_M3_CustodyChain.pdf
I think Vincent Bugliosi has the best explanation of what happened to the brain. Robert Kennedy took possession of all the autopsy materials in April 1965. In Bugliosi's book,"Reclaiming History" he has a picture of Robert and Ted Kennedy with a metal box at their feet with the JFK's grave being re-dug. Bugliosi believes the Kennedy's themselves did not want the brain on display and had it buried with Kennedy. Which I think was their right.
O'Connor's statement about the brain being just goo and being gone is a little weird.

[enigma3]

This fall I will put together a post that clearly shows 3 bullets striking Kennedy. From 3 different angles. If you want to do some research on your own, type in "Zapruder Film" on Youtube. Watch the enhanced, stabilized version. Then watch it in slow motion. Finally, watch the zoom version frame by frame as the last two bullets hit him one on top of the other. Truly amazing things they can do with an old film.

[Spellbound]

Hopefully there will be a JFK sub-forum by then with multiple threads on multiple topics therein.http://projectavalon.net/forum4/images/smilies/wizard.gif

Dave - Toronto

[enigma3]

Here's a brief preview of the future post.
1. Bullet #1 came from the triple underpass, went through the windshield and hit JFK right in the thorax, passing out his upper back.
2. Bullet #2 hit him after the car passed the sign. It hit him on the right side of his head and exited in front of his right temple.
3. Bullet #3 was the shot from the grassy knoll. That shot was the only exploding bullet used. It blew off the back of his head in the occipital area.

I have been interested in how he was assassinated since 1963. After the 50th anniversary of the killing I looked at the factual evidence again and was astonished at the new information out there. You have to dig, but it is there. And do NOT believe ANYTHING you read that happened after the body left Dallas. From that point on the story is purely fiction.

[enigma3]

I repeat - ALL "evidence" that was revealed after the body left Dallas is fiction.
Fact - Bobby Kennedy asked Hoover for JFK's brain after the autopsy and was told NO. A brain weight would have told us that his brain was missing some material due to the occipital region missing.
My computer crashed one week ago taking all data saved on the hard drive. So I must recreate all that.

Here's another interesting tidbit I uncovered. The Mannlicher Carcano $19.95 rifle supposedly used by Oswald had a scope on it. The Dallas PD tested it and found that the sight hairs jiggled after every shot. So the scope was good for one decent shot only. Then it had to be realigned again. And don't forget that the only fingerprint found on the sixth floor belonged to Mac Wallace, LBJ's hit man. No Oswald prints on the gun or anyplace on the 6th floor.
And, a Dallas PD officer who was interviewed later stated that the Dallas PD found a Mauser on the 6th floor at first. Not a Mannlicher. Then he was killed within a month of the interview. One of approximately 100 people who were offed after the killing.
The only shot that hit someone from the 6th floor hit John Connally after JFK was hit first. Watch the Zapruder film closely. Connally turns to his right to see what was going on in the back seat before he gets hit. When hit he reacts as expected. No magic bullet there! But the bullet path is consistent with a shot from high up.

[Spellbound]

If I recall, at the end of The Men Who Killed Kennedy, they played a rather long list of people who were pertinent to the case who died shortly thereafter.

Dave - Toronto

[blackdog]

Yes, I'm saying the bullet entered the left temple and exited the right parietal area. The video shows where the Parkland doctors saw the exit wound.

The shooter would have had to be out in the open or pretty far away for the shot to come from the left. It would also require the exit wound on the right to propel the head back toward the shooter. Seems highly unlikely.

I havent watched this video. I may have seen it in the past.


All the autopsy findings have to be negated since the body that was officially autopsied was not Kennedy's. Kennedy had bilateral chest tube wounds and 3 cutdowns for intravenous fluid. One of Kennedy's cutdowns infiltrated causing swelling in one of the ankles. None of these medical wounds were found on the body Humes autopsied.

If the body was not Kennedy's, then what doctors' are we listening to? From Parkland? There's only one autopsy, right? At Bethseda? What doctor(s) said there was a bullet hole in the left side of the head, and where were they from?


I think Vincent Bugliosi has the best explanation of what happened to the brain. Robert Kennedy took possession of all the autopsy materials in April 1965. In Bugliosi's book,"Reclaiming History" he has a picture of Robert and Ted Kennedy with a metal box at their feet with the JFK's grave being re-dug. Bugliosi believes the Kennedy's themselves did not want the brain on display and had it buried with Kennedy. Which I think was their right.
O'Connor's statement about the brain being just goo and being gone is a little weird.

Bugliosi thinks it wasnt a conspiracy, so I wouldnt put too much stock in what he says.

[Atlas]

What do you think of the JFK body-switch conspiracy theory?

wikipedia.org/John_F._Kennedy_assassination_conspiracy_theories#Decoy_hearse_and_wound_alteration (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_assassination_conspiracy_theories#Decoy_hearse_and_wound_alteration)

Starts @2:54:
RRwe-XPpmwI

[Curious77]

Need to argue here for "closed caption" -- though they seem to often be doing a really
unbelievably lousy job of it -- even with C-span videos!

It seems that with the 50th anniversary and more than 75% of the public not being the
Warren Commission myth, those involved in trying to keep truth covered up have decided
that there are probably enough people now who they might have a chance of lying to.

What those who may be first looking into the assassination need to understand is that the
truth was known the very night of the assassination. The names of those involved were on
the lips of people in Washington. Immediately they were turning information over to lawyers
and talking to those asking questions. But it was a very dangerous time for truth as all of
the deaths surrounding the assassination show. In fact, I've read that 100 or more of those
lawyers were murdered in DC alone.

You should also understand that the very first suspect was LBJ -- and he is still the main suspect.
JFK had fired Allan Dulles and Cabell from the CIA. He was at war with the Joint Chiefs.
He, like Khruschev, wondered if he could control his own military leaders.

One of the best explanation for the assassination was a movie which came out almost
immediately after the assassination. It's called: "Executive Action" and it stars Burt Lancaster,
Robert Ryan, the guy who used to play "grandpa" on the Walton's. It's still available though
I haven't seen it played on TV in quite a while. And, a new movie was made by that title, just
coincidently. It's pretty much the story. And it seems that's exactly what LBJ called the plan.

JFK and RFK were forced into accepting LBJ on the ticket. But immediately, plans began to
assassinate JFK. LBJ was the "Mastermind" as Phillip Nelson tells us in his book. But many
others were involved. Many at the top knew that it was truly about assassinating the JFK.
Some believed it was a training program. Others who weren't immediately told were those
likely to go along with the plan at any rate when it was revealed.

LBJ was well tuned in to like minded people -- people who hated JFK -- people who felt JFK
was seriously in their way. People willing to do violence. LBJ had long had his own private
murderer - a guy named Malcolm Wallace -- and his fingerprints turn up on he 6th floor of
the TSBD building on the cartons. Billy Sol Estes testified to Congress and attributed at
least 17-18 deaths to LBJ/Wallace. LBJ was headed to prison for a long time.

The night before the assassination there was a private meeting at the home of Clint
Murchinson --
See: Madelaine Duncan Brown/YouTube


1960 - Democratic Convention - California
from - John Currington, aide to H. L. Hunt: Evidently, Joe Kennedy, Sr. met with H. L. Hunt 3 days before election. Deal: H. L. Hunt agreed LBJ would go as VP

"Total political crime" - Madelaine Duncan Brown (LBJ Mistress)


H. L. Hunt really controlled what happened to JFK - he and Lyndon Baines Johnson
On walk with Madelaine Brown, HL Hunt told her -- "We may have lost the battle but will win the war"
Then -- day after assassination "We won the war"

Then plot to get rid of JFK began immediately --

H. L. Hunt property - lodge - North of Dallas (outside of Dallas) - secluded by creek
Chose different people to do different things for him --
In planning for two years

* * * * * * *

11/21/63 - Social -- 8 pm - breaking up about 10:30/11 --
Thursday night before assassination . . .

Men who arrived for the meeting --
J. E. Hoover -- Lyndon came in from Houston - last to arrive
George Hoffries
John Connolly
Brown Brothers
Clint Murchinson
Richardson


All into conference room -- "Come, boys" -- (Murchinson) thought gambler
George W. Owen - identified w/Clint Murchinson, involved w/various business-building/oil
Owen picked up someone at Love Airport (John J. McCloy, Chas. Cabell)
John Currington
Richard Nixon was there -- but he was already in Houston and had met Lyndon in Dallas on Tuesday at Adolphus Hotel.
Jack Ruby was at meeting -- Brought a call girl with him --
George Brown --
Earl Cabell, The Mayor of Dallas
Henry Wade
Joe Garber
Amon G. Carter, Jr., publisher, Fort Worth Texas Newspaper
Ralph Garber -- didn't get along w/Lyndon.
W. O. Bankston
Clint Peoples, Sheriff of Dallas County
Cliff Carter
Malcolm Wallace
Carlos Marcello -- Mafia
Joe Sivello
Joe Yarborough
Larry Campbell (represented Hoffa)
Carlos Marcello
Jack Petterball

Missed about 6 or more names.

Gordon McClendon, radio station KLIF KALC Houston --

What had happened at the KLIF Studio was that Station owner Gordon McLendon

had entered and taken over the microphone to announce to Dallas and to the rest of

the world that Tippit had been killed at the Theater. THIS WAS, APPARENTLY,

THE ORIGINAL PLAN OF THE CONSPIRACY!

http://forum.assassinationofjfk.net/index.php/topic/201-what-gordon-mcclendon-did-at-radiod-station-klif-on-112263/


Night before when LBJ came out of meeting -- grabbed her by arm -
"After tomorrow, those SOB's will never bother me again -- "
"That's no threat, that's a promise."

[Curious77]

That's not correct --

The bullet that entered JFK's throat had NO outlet -- as shown at autopsy. And they thought that the bullet had probably lodged in his chest cavity.
The bullet that entered JFK's back was at his right shoulder blade -- and also had NO outlet -- as shown at autopsy.
THAT was the wound which was "moved up" by Gerald Ford who was on the Warren Commission -- in order to try to establish the "Magic Bullet" lie.
The head wound was likely two simultaneous shots -- one from the Grassy Knoll and one from the gutter/sewer.

The 1992 JFK Records Act established by Clinton after the movie "JFK" was headed by John Tunheim heading up a panel of about four others.
Journalists had immediately asked for Oswald's employment records -- IRS tax filings, W-2 forms and they were always denied. But, obviously, the panel got to see them. Their unanimous conclusion was:

"OSWALD WAS EMPLOYED BY THE CIA WORKING ON HIGH LEVEL
ASSIGNMENTS AND PROBABLY ALSO FOR THE FBI."


it's also thought that Oswald was able to whistleblow on the plans for the
assassination to take place in Chicago and that he alerted the Secret Service.

The plan for Miami was called off by an informer named Sullivan (I believe)
with a tape recording of comments by right winger outlining the plans ...
including for a "patsy."

So -- Dallas was not their preferred location for the assassination.

[KiwiElf]

Here's a brief preview of the future post.
1. Bullet #1 came from the triple underpass, went through the windshield and hit JFK right in the thorax, passing out his upper back.
2. Bullet #2 hit him after the car passed the sign. It hit him on the right side of his head and exited in front of his right temple.
3. Bullet #3 was the shot from the grassy knoll. That shot was the only exploding bullet used. It blew off the back of his head in the occipital area.

I have been interested in how he was assassinated since 1963. After the 50th anniversary of the killing I looked at the factual evidence again and was astonished at the new information out there. You have to dig, but it is there. And do NOT believe ANYTHING you read that happened after the body left Dallas. From that point on the story is purely fiction.

1. There was a windshield shot/hole, fired from the front, (fired from the overpass, or the grassy knoll or... somewhere else), which could have hit him in the throat - wherever it came from, the throat shot did not exit anywhere

2. You must have a very different Zapbruder footage - that shot hit him in the throat - from the front (while the car is behind the sign - Kennedy can clearly be seen grasping his throat when the car emerges from behind the sign); the following shot from behind hit him in the back (& Connally as well)

3. Impossible - the car is virtually side on to the grassy knoll when the fatal shot hits (fired from the front), striking him in his front right temple, taking off that part of his skull and exiting the back right of his skull.

Zapbruder himself was filming from only a few meters to the left of the grassy knoll position. The fatal shot from that position would have struck Kennedy in the right side of his skull, and exited the left side of his skull, (and probably hit Jackie in the process). At the very least sprayed her with all the "debris", which ended up on the rear trunk of the car, clearly proving that shot came from the front. (Or are you suggesting another "magic bullet" that can turn corners?).

For the locations, please look at the map below & earlier post - or Google - there are plenty "out there" :) (and the autopsy pics and Zapbruder footage - perhaps another version ;)).

Yes, I am amazed at how modern technology can manipulate and alter an old film. I suggest you look at one of the earlier versions that hasn't been "enhanced". :)

It's already been established that 6 (maybe 7) shots in total were fired, 3 of which hit Kennedy, all from different angles.

That aside, I'm interested in your theory :).

34124

[KiwiElf]

By the way that comment I made about Americans don't read, I shouldn't have said that. Maybe if I wrote better, people wound understand what I'm trying to say!!!

Betty, you write just fine, but if I could make a small recommendation from a graphic designers POV? Insert a hard space (Enter or Return key = blocked paragraphs) OR the paragraph indent (Tab key) between your paragraphs = much easier to read ;)

As for US/people not reading? I think most people everywhere don't read much ;)

[blackdog]

3. Impossible - the car is virtually side on to the grassy knoll when the fatal shot hits (fired from the front), striking him in his front right temple, taking off that part of his skull and exiting the back right of his skull.

There is no exit wound on the back of his head in pictures or in videos. Everything is consistent with an exploding bullet coming from the front right, sending his head back and to the left. You can see from this video and picture that the grassy knoll fence is directly in line with that. We dont know for sure, but saying this is "impossible" is over the top. It's the most likely scenario.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMdreKlLhJY

http://i.imgur.com/YtXiWUbl.jpg

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/attachment.php?attachmentid=34116&d=1472240802&thumb=1

And why do you keep spelling Zapruder with a 'b'?

[TargeT]

You can see from this video and picture that the grassy knoll fence is directly in line with that. We dont know for sure, but saying this is "impossible" is over the top. It's the most likely scenario.


A grassy knoll shot would have knocked him left and forward or left and down with a definite head twist evident from the force mostly coming from the side; due to his already forward leaning posture it would take a shot from the front to knock him back like that... It's a matter of applied force, think of it like a pool shot.

because of this I see the knoll as very unlikely, regardless of the weapon used.

[blackdog]

A grassy knoll shot would have knocked him left and forward or left and down with a definite head twist evident from the force mostly coming from the side; due to his already forward leaning posture it would take a shot from the front to knock him back like that... It's a matter of applied force, think of it like a pool shot.

because of this I see the knoll as very unlikely, regardless of the weapon used.

It's from the front right. It's consistent with the videos.

http://i.imgur.com/y2RBCB0.jpg

There were multiple shooters. Shots came from behind and maybe from the front, although there were civilians watching from the bridge and the storm drain shot looks impossible.

[TargeT]

A grassy knoll shot would have knocked him left and forward or left and down with a definite head twist evident from the force mostly coming from the side; due to his already forward leaning posture it would take a shot from the front to knock him back like that... It's a matter of applied force, think of it like a pool shot.

because of this I see the knoll as very unlikely, regardless of the weapon used.

It's from the front right. It's consistent with the videos.

http://i.imgur.com/y2RBCB0.jpg

There were multiple shooters. Shots came from behind and maybe from the front, although there were civilians watching from the bridge and the storm drain shot looks impossible.

From that angle his head would have twisted left and he would have been pushed down/sideways; not back and left... the vertical component of that shot is what I'm mostly focused on... the video shows a victim that was shot from "head level" or lower, off to the front right; an elevated shot would transfer energy much differently into a person already leaning forward; regardless of weapon system used.

[KiwiElf]

@ Blackdog

Looking at a top down map gives far more accurate angles and distances. Simple trigonometry (angles). Sorry, but it IS an impossibility from that location, to produce the wound shown in the autopsy pics (unless these have been altered too).

You're not taking into account, as I said in my earlier post; Kennedy's head was turned to the left and down at the point of impact. To spell it out, that would put Kennedy's head at an almost exact right angle to any shot fired from the grassy knoll at that point.

(Forgive me asking, but have you skipped a few posts?) ;)

34125

34126

There are several versions/videos & enlargements of the Zapruder footage frames on Google & YouTube, which highlight the wound at the back of the head. (thanks for pointing out my spelling error :)) I've included a few below. Download them, and put them in a player like VLC. Freeze the frame(s) and start increasing the gamma, contrast & brightness... remember this is only 8mm film.

Also described by the various doctors, "a wound the size of a fist" - the digital recreation of the back of JFK's skull - above, in your post and mine - was considered accurate. Enlarge the "Medical Evidence" from my earlier post attachment and read the captions (discussed & illustrated in great detail, along with the other points I've made, in Groden's book, which I gather, you haven't read? Or Cooper's book? Any books???)

Sorry, not my job to do other people's research for them. What's contained on the few pages of this thread, ain't enough. :sherlock:

The "original" Zapruder footage, un-enhanced (likely a copy not the original)

kq1PbgeBoQ4

The digitally remastered version

P74Q2NUBmGk

One (just one) analysis of the back of the head wound which is clearly visible - there are many others

rYaoBB1rwkc

[blackdog]

Looking at a top down map gives far more accurate angles and distances. Simple trigonometry (angles). Sorry, but it [B]IS an impossibility from that location, to produce the wound shown in the autopsy pics (unless these have been altered too).

You're not taking into account, as I said in my earlier post; Kennedy's head was turned to the left and down at the point of impact. To spell it out, that would put Kennedy's head at an almost exact right angle to any shot fired from the grassy knoll at that point.

I absolutely agree with this. That's why the exploding bullet blasts his head back and to the left, directly away from the grassy knoll fence.


(Forgive me asking, but have you skipped a few posts?) ;)

No, I dont think so.


http://projectavalon.net/forum4/attachment.php?attachmentid=34125

You are saying this picture shows a shot through the front of the head, exiting out the back? There is no wound in the back of the head where this shows it. I would expect a pic like this to be posted by those supporting the Warren Commission's Oswald theory, because it is consistent with a bullet hole in the back with the explosive exit wound in the front. A shot from the front (if that's what you are saying) with this trajectory, would have had to have originated from the area of Governor Connolly's wife's shoulder or lower.


There are several versions/videos & enlargements of the Zapruder footage frames on Google & YouTube, which highlight the wound at the back of the head. (thanks for pointing out my spelling error :)) I've included a few below. Download them, and put them in a player like VLC. Freeze the frame(s) and start increasing the gamma, contrast & brightness... remember this is only 8mm film.

Also described by the various doctors, "a wound the size of a fist" - the digital recreation of the back of JFK's skull - above, in your post and mine - was considered accurate. Enlarge the "Medical Evidence" from my earlier post attachment and read the captions (discussed & illustrated in great detail, along with the other points I've made, in Groden's book, which I gather, you haven't read? Or Cooper's book? Any books???)

Sorry, not my job to do other people's research for them. What's contained on the few pages of this thread, ain't enough. :sherlock:

I havent read Groden's book. I've read over fifty books on the JFK assassination, though, and have seen many documentaries and Youtube videos, including the ones you posted. I stopped reading Cooper's book in the middle because of some the clear errors.

I've heard many people describe large wounds in the back of JFK's head, but many of these witnesses contradict each other and the pictures and videos.

The shot looks like it came from the fence, the best shot was from the fence, and the people there that day thought it came from the fence. Some say they saw activity behind the fence and that there was evidence someone had been there for a while. To say it is impossible is overstating your case.

I definitely think it is possible the shot came from somewhere else, I just have never heard another theory plausible enough to overtake the grassy knoll scenario.

[KiwiElf]

A shot from the front (if that's what you are saying) with this trajectory, would have had to have originated from the area of Governor Connolly's wife's shoulder or lower.

Exactly :)

[blackdog]

Exactly :)

So where are you saying the shot came from?

[TargeT]

Exactly :)

So where are you saying the shot came from?

storm drain?

This photo puts the car in the perfect position:
http://i.imgur.com/y2RBCB0.jpg

http://www.rense.com/1.imagesA/drain4.jpg

http://www.rense.com/1.imagesA/drain3.jpg

http://www.rense.com/1.imagesA/drain5.jpg

http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/drain/DRAIN08B.JPG

[KiwiElf]

Exactly :)

So where are you saying the shot came from?

So I guess you did miss a few posts :p ... it had to have come from inside the car OR almost directly in front of & to the left of the limo

Who? I doubt we'll ever know ;)

[TargeT]

Exactly :)

So where are you saying the shot came from?

storm drain?

This photo puts the car in the perfect position:
http://i.imgur.com/y2RBCB0.jpg

http://www.rense.com/1.imagesA/drain4.jpg

http://www.rense.com/1.imagesA/drain3.jpg

http://www.rense.com/1.imagesA/drain5.jpg

http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/drain/DRAIN08B.JPG



So I guess you did miss a few posts :p ... it had to have come from inside the car OR almost directly in front of & to the left of the limo

Who? I doubt we'll ever know ;)

hmm, left as you face the car perhaps.. let's call it off to the "passenger side" of the vehicle, not "left".

[KiwiElf]

Except... those storm drains are on the right of the limo ;) - again, the angles don't work (any storm drains on the left of the limo???)

¤=[Post Update]=¤

I am talking as if you were sitting in the car facing forward.

[TargeT]

Except... those storm drains are on the right of the limo ;) - again, the angles don't work (any storm drains on the left of the limo???)

¤=[Post Update]=¤

I am talking as if you were sitting in the car facing forward.

So your saying he was shot from the left and his head went back and to the left?

I don't think that's what you mean to say.. I'm certain he was shot from the front RIGHT of the car ( for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction) thus his head was pushed back and to the left... the bullet trajectory in the "head model" lines up perfectly for a shot from down low & to the right (passenger side, the side he was sitting on) due to the angle of his head in the video... and that angle is lined up right with the drain.

[KiwiElf]

Slightly to the left - think of the centerline of the car: Kennedy has now slumped over toward Jackie, placing his head near the centerline, looking down and slightly to the left. Draw a straight line forward from Kennedy's head angle (toward the front of the car, based on the head model above it would just about line up with the front left corner of the limo....)

(His back brace would have prevented that exact movement)

[blackdog]

storm drain?

http://www.rense.com/1.imagesA/drain5.jpg

Based on the view from this pic, the shooter wouldnt have been able to see the car.

http://i.imgur.com/xRoVpOA.png

[TargeT]

Slightly to the left - think of the centerline of the car: Kennedy has now slumped over toward Jackie, placing his head near the centerline, looking down and slightly to the left. Draw a straight line forward from Kennedy's head angle (toward the front of the car, based on the head model above it would just about line up with the front left corner of the limo....)


I'd say VIOLENTLY left.. look at this video, watch his neck, notice that his arm follows as his head is jerked back and the back brace interferes, there is a bias of movement showing us a transfer of energy from the forward right... there was a lot of energy transfer there (indicative of a rifle, or decent sized caliber bullet.. or maybe even the more exotic stuff).

Watch to about 5 seconds, second 4 you can see under his chin as his head is pushed up and left.
m8_hDakTz2I

Purely based on video is where I'm coming up with this idea (well, agreeing with it, I didnt' come up with anything really)

[KiwiElf]

That depends where you put the shooter?

[blackdog]

So I guess you did miss a few posts :p ... it had to have come from inside the car OR almost directly in front of & to the left of the limo

Ok. I strongly disagree with that. If you are talking about the drain to JFK's right, I already addressed that earlier in the thread. I think they show in the video I posted that you cant even see a standing man on the assassination spot from the drain. If you are talking about the drain on JFK's left, there's no angle. Both shots would have had to go through the car.

If you are talking about the driver (and I believe Cooper said he saw a document naming the driver as the shooter), I think that's nutty. Everyone in the car and all the bystanders would have seen it plain as day. Why do it out in the open like that? It's nuts. Plus there is all the other evidence of the case, covered in so many books, that is not consistent with a shooter in the car.

[TargeT]

http://www.rense.com/1.imagesA/drain5.jpg

Based on the view from this pic, the shooter wouldnt have been able to see the car.

http://i.imgur.com/xRoVpOA.png

Looks to me like it would line up perfect, and you could use the corner of the drain as a brace... I was just there, spent my time on the cop shooting though, didn't think to goto the drain..

I'd have to see it in person to be sure, but it's making sense to me... mostly due to the video.

[KiwiElf]

Let's not start calling names, here. ;) This "crude" picture explains the angle: top down view (Top is front of limo), car moving forward, circles represent heads of each person in the car, red line is rough trajectory of the "bullet/projectile" whatever... fired from the front ... left is left. Red line also roughly depicts the angle Kennedy's head was at the point of impact

34127

[TargeT]

So I guess you did miss a few posts :p ... it had to have come from inside the car OR almost directly in front of & to the left of the limo

Ok. I strongly disagree with that. If you are talking about the drain to JFK's right, I already addressed that earlier in the thread. I think they show in the video I posted that you cant even see a standing man on the assassination spot from the drain. If you are talking about the drain on JFK's left, there's no angle. Both shots would have had to go through the car.


The video from the discovery channel... I dunno how much I'd trust that one ;)

Pretty workable angle here:
http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/drain/DRAIN14B.JPG

http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/drain/DRAIN12B.JPG

Looks very plausible from this:
http://www.jfktruth.org/drain/JFKGoogleSVManHole.jpg


Let's not start calling names, here. ;) This "crude" picture explains the angle: top down view (Top is front of limo), car moving forward, circles represent heads of each person in the car, red line is rough trajectory of the "bullet/projectile whatever... fired from the front ... left is left. Red line also roughly depicts the angle Kennedy's head was at the point of impact

34127

That angle (with the window included) is very very high, I don't think that's possible at all; certainly not with how his body reacted... I've shot enough things that you just sort of get a "feel" for how it's suppose to move.. Kenedy moved a little strangely but the back brace would account for that, the rest "feels" right (yeah, that's some poor evidence i guess.. haha)

a shot at that angle would be very steep to hit a slumped kenedy & would shove his head FURTHER down and to the right from that angle.

http://gizapyramid.com/wpe96004.jpg

[KiwiElf]

See above...

[KiwiElf]

So I guess you did miss a few posts :p ... it had to have come from inside the car OR almost directly in front of & to the left of the limo

Ok. I strongly disagree with that. If you are talking about the drain to JFK's right, I already addressed that earlier in the thread. I think they show in the video I posted that you cant even see a standing man on the assassination spot from the drain. If you are talking about the drain on JFK's left, there's no angle. Both shots would have had to go through the car.

If you are talking about the driver (and I believe Cooper said he saw a document naming the driver as the shooter), I think that's nutty. Everyone in the car and all the bystanders would have seen it plain as day. Why do it out in the open like that? It's nuts. Plus there is all the other evidence of the case, covered in so many books, that is not consistent with a shooter in the car.

See above diagram - well bringing down the WTC with two airliners is pretty "nutty" too, ay? :) (I never throw the baby out with the bathwater...) The simple maths of this might say otherwise.

Of course, you're entitled to disagree with whatever you like :)

[TargeT]

See above diagram -

blue line seems a lot more plausible than the red line ( you had JFK too far center, i fixed it ;) )
34132

[Chester]

So I guess you did miss a few posts :p ... it had to have come from inside the car OR almost directly in front of & to the left of the limo

Ok. I strongly disagree with that. If you are talking about the drain to JFK's right, I already addressed that earlier in the thread. I think they show in the video I posted that you cant even see a standing man on the assassination spot from the drain. If you are talking about the drain on JFK's left, there's no angle. Both shots would have had to go through the car.

If you are talking about the driver (and I believe Cooper said he saw a document naming the driver as the shooter), I think that's nutty. Everyone in the car and all the bystanders would have seen it plain as day. Why do it out in the open like that? It's nuts. Plus there is all the other evidence of the case, covered in so many books, that is not consistent with a shooter in the car.

See above diagram - well bringing down the WTC with two airliners is pretty "nutty" too, ay? :) (I never throw the baby out with the bathwater...) The simple maths of this might say otherwise.

Of course, you're entitled to disagree with whatever you like :)

What I see when I watch the film is that the object people claim is the gun held by the driver is actually glare from the top of the head of the person sitting in the front right seat. Look at several frames before and you can catch a few glimpses of this same reflection.

But hey, I have not made up my mind at all in any way regarding the details of the actual event (how many shooters, where the shooters shot from, how many bullets, how many hit Kennedy, did a separate bullet hit Connally only, etc.). What I am certain about is that this was a coup.

[KiwiElf]

Hmmm nice reworking of my pic TargeT :) (I'll stick to my version ;))

The simple fact of the matter is, this was a planned inside job; the coverup of the facts is still continuing to this day. Who "did it" ? We'll probably never know. Also, Why?

Herein lies the key: who had the power to organise the assassination and cover-up the crime after the fact? And who really had the most to lose?

[Chester]

I think the why is that a critical mass of reasons were reached. Depending on who you were, what position of power you held, what agendas you represented all varied yet, folks like Johnson had clear motivation and personality type. He also had connections with a few corporations in the industrial military complex who would benefit from a reverse in global aggression (especially Vietnam). His association with Hoover helped. Texas oil boys (and big oil in general) had their reasons (not just the depletion allowance being threatened by JFK). Dulles and his friends (still CIA and ex-CIA) had their own reasons. The "mob" was back stabbed by Robert Kennedy. The FED boys surely had their reasons. Elements of the Dallas Police played a role. Don't forget Earle Cabell (mayor of Dallas at the time of the assassination) was the brother of Charles Cabell who was deputy director of the CIA until he resigned over the Bay of Pigs incident.

And these folks all had loose relationships with each other and/or had blackmail on each other. But IMO Johnson (with hitmen at his beckoning) was the key and Hoover covered his butt and Dulles' helped, perhaps some of the shooters, certainly operation planning, management and damage control. The mob connections of the CIA was a major contribution and the folks who felt wronged by the Bay of Pigs fiasco were associated with both the mob and the CIA.

Most folks may not have analyzed that Bay of Pigs operation the same as I have. It looks to me like the the hawks who were pushing for more war (specifically with Russia in their sites) had planned the operation such that it would fail such that Kennedy would be forced to send in US Air Force jets and Dulles made a bad call banking on the fact he would. If Kennedy had done so, Russia would probably have reacted. When the jets were called back (my information was RFK played a role in this as well), the op failed and the military industrial complex didn't get their wish.

Kennedy made it clear (and word got back to Johnson) that Johnson would not be VP for the second term. The Bobby Baker investigation was just about to have a critical hearing in the senate where Johnson additionally was a focus of the probe. This was Kennedy's excuse for dropping Johnson but insiders all knew that they both hated each other, RFK and Johnson too. Johnson's choice was easy, jail or become the president of the US. Note, Johnson's residence in Washington DC was very near Hoover's home and it was known that Hoover's wife and Lady Bird Johnson had a "special" relationship. Those who knew Lady Bird knew she was quite ruthless as well. Hoover's role in the cover up was critical.

Again... jail or lead "the Free World." Kennedy was assassinated and thereafter Johnson was no longer a focus of the investigation team.

[Spellbound]

Wow, you folks were certainly busy in this thread today.

Everyone seems to be concentrating on the storm drain on the street, but no one thinks a shot could have come from the storm drain to the right of the underpass instead??

Dave - Toronto

[Betty]

[QUOTE=enigma3;1090686]The definitive video to watch is the 9 part series "The Men Who Killed Kennedy". Each part is roughly one hour long. If you don't have that kind of time, do watch parts 7, 8 and 9. A&E broadcast the first 7 episodes and then the elites stepped forward and prevented the airing of parts 8 and 9. Part 8 is the best one with part 9 the conclusion. Best video out there. A British company made it.

Regarding the series "The Men Who Killed Kennedy".
The first video spends a great deal of time on Oswald and Ruby. To understand Oswald the best source I found was John Armstrong's book, "Harvey and Lee". It is a very big book and very dry reading because it gives fact after fact after fact. In that book you'll find there were 2 Oswalds. Harvey who was of Eastern European dissent, could speak Russian fluently and had thinning hair. Lee was from Texas and had thick hair. Ruby is a rather tragic figure and maybe we'll all know what he meant when he gave that speech to Earl Warren.
In part 1 video the first Parkland doctor you see is Dr. McCelland. During the attempted resuscitation of JFK, McCelland stood at JFK's head helping to hold traction for a tracheostomy tube that Dr. Perry put in. McCelland was the senior doctor that day. All the doctors who took part in the resuscitation wrote notes or typed notes immediately after the attempted resuscitation. McCelland's note stated the president died of a gun shot wound to the left temple that exited the right parietal area. McCelland would later recant this saying he didn't actually see the wound but that he was told this by Dr. Jenkins, an anesthesiologist. Jenkins did not write about the entrance wound in his note but did testify to it in the testimony he gave to Arlen Specter when Specter came to Dallas to take the Parkland doctors testimony.
Note the drawing that McCelland makes in this video. The exit wound is higher and more to the side than the picture that is on the intranet. The picture he makes in this video looks like where all or most of what the Parkland doctors testified to.
Next Parkland doctor you see is Dr. Peters. Dr. Peters became a famous urologist. In caring for JFK he helped put the right chest tube in along with Dr. Baxter. Dr. Baxter mentions that Dr. Rose who was a forensic pathologist wanted to do the autopsy. I've read Dr. Perry's testimony and Dr. Carrico's statements elsewhere and what I understand is that the Parkland doctors believed the Bethesda doctors were just incompetent.
The doctors from Parkland Hospital probably read the autopsy protocolhttp://www.history-matters.com/archive/contents/arrb/contents_arrb_med-exhibits.htm
This is a link to a list of medical documents pertaining to the JFK assassination. Look for the autopsy protocol. You'll see Humes wrote chest tubes for subcutaneous emphysema. I remember reading Dr. Perry's comments about this and how this didn't make sense that "that wasn't even a treatment for subcutaneous emphysema". So instead of looking further of why Humes would write this, they simply wrote him off as incompetent.
Next person to mention is Robert Groeden. I did get to shake Robert Groeden's hand in Dallas in 2012. It was a very sad time for him, he had recently lost his wife and you could tell he was very down. At Groeden's book stand were 2 men eager to help him sell books. I would like to remind people that Groeden was called as a defense witness in the OJ Simpson civil case. Groeden said a picture of OJ Simpson wearing a pair of "Bruno Magli" shoes was a forgery. The importance of Bruno Magli shoes is that at the murder scene Bruno Magli footprints were found and Bruno Magli is a shoe very few people wear. The basis for this claim of forgery was not believed and OJ lost the civil case. Groeden's lack of education was brought up.
I have a hard time with Groeden. The Zapruder film was not shown until years after the JFK assassination. During that time I really believe the film was manipulated to show what was wanted to be shown. In the Warren Commission evidence only 2 frames of the film are shown. The shot from the grassy knoll was only diversion. As was told by many people, there were mysterious men there with a rifle but their angle was wrong for the shot that hit Kennedy. The CIA was part of this operation. I'm sure they learn diversion and distraction day 2 at Langley.
Finally I would like to mention what Cyril Wecht stated that the 26 volumes of Warren Commission hearing testimony belongs in the fiction section. I want to disagree very strongly with this. Yes, people may have lied but their words were taken by the heros of the Kennedy assassination- the court reporters- who wrote down exactly what they said. Read what Allen Dulles said his little quips have loads of information behind them if you read between the lines. Read what Dr. Humes actually said instead of relying on what you hear on TV or read on the intranet by others. Read what the Parkland doctors actually did. Read what the HSCA about the bad amateurish quality of autopsy photos, photos that couldn't have possibly be done by John Stringer. In HSCA testimony and ARRB testimony you can actually hear and read the transcript testimony by the doctors and of John Stringer(the official photographer). Also what Robert Knudsen's family said. (Robert Knudsen was a white house photographer who said shooting the autopsy photos was hardest thing he had ever done.)
If court reporters had been allowed to take testimony of witnesses to the 9-11 tragedy, things would be different. Of course Judy Wood's testimony would be the greatest.

[Atlas]

Fresh footprints in the mud:

hEB9y5Qz5-k
9xekqbW09yM

[KiwiElf]

@ Sam - with respect, all the "debunked driver did it" videos proved, was that the reflection of the sun in the other agent's hair (closest to the camera") wasn't a weapon. It doesn't and hasn't proved there was no weapon, or that the driver didn't do it. ;) This is a classic example of dogma (throwing the baby out with the bathwater because one aspect of many is wrong when the other aspects may be correct). ;)

The other "aspect" as to the "why" is the often ignored threat that JFK intended to expose MJ-12 (Majority /Majic) & the overall UFO cover up. Like a covert "Section 31", MJ-12 (and its successors today) was and are accountable to no-one, including the POTUS. This, I believe, is very much connected, if not the primary reason he was "expedited", especially when you consider that situation today. Again, who had/has the most to lose if JFK exposed them?.

[sunwings]

1. Please create a Sub Forum for JFK
2. The documentary Rich Man´s trick is a must watch for every Avaloner. The first 90 mins gives one of the most complete summaries of our history in the 20th Century.
3. I studied my ass off for 4 years between the age of 14-18. Only studying Nazi Germany. Now i feel such a fool. I learnt how we defeated Fascism however its so clear that the Fascist state is more alive than ever! Lie after Lie i was programmed with. I can hold my own on the Nazi subject but now feel like crap thinking how could I buy into it without questioning the fact that it doesn't add up.
4. Lesson learned. Dust myself down. Deprogrammed. Start again. Never stop!
5. Thanks Avalon.

[blackdog]

Fresh footprints in the mud:

Thank you.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41Shyfk1kyL._AC_US160_.jpg https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51yZhV1YC3L._AC_US160_.jpg

[Chester]

1. Please create a Sub Forum for JFK
2. The documentary Rich Man´s trick is a must watch for every Avaloner. The first 90 mins gives one of the most complete summaries of our history in the 20th Century.
3. I studied my ass off for 4 years between the age of 14-18. Only studying Nazi Germany. Now i feel such a fool. I learnt how we defeated Fascism however its so clear that the Fascist state is more alive than ever! Lie after Lie i was programmed with. I can hold my own on the Nazi subject but now feel like crap thinking how could I buy into it without questioning the fact that it doesn't add up.
4. Lesson learned. Dust myself down. Deprogrammed. Start again. Never stop!
5. Thanks Avalon.

If the sub forum would be created, I would likely make a thread about my own, personal interesting story that ties directly to the final event... but again, in the strangest of ways.

[Eram]

1. Please create a Sub Forum for JFK
2. The documentary Rich Man´s trick is a must watch for every Avaloner. The first 90 mins gives one of the most complete summaries of our history in the 20th Century.
3. I studied my ass off for 4 years between the age of 14-18. Only studying Nazi Germany. Now i feel such a fool. I learnt how we defeated Fascism however its so clear that the Fascist state is more alive than ever! Lie after Lie i was programmed with. I can hold my own on the Nazi subject but now feel like crap thinking how could I buy into it without questioning the fact that it doesn't add up.
4. Lesson learned. Dust myself down. Deprogrammed. Start again. Never stop!
5. Thanks Avalon.

If the sub forum would be created, I would likely make a thread about my own, personal interesting story that ties directly to the final event... but again, in the strangest of ways.

Yes, please do.
I've never forgotten your post about your personal link to the event and would like to know more about it.

[Chester]

@ Sam - with respect, all the "debunked driver did it" videos proved, was that the reflection of the sun in the other agent's hair (closest to the camera") wasn't a weapon. It doesn't and hasn't proved there was no weapon, or that the driver didn't do it. ;) This is a classic example of dogma (throwing the baby out with the bathwater because one aspect of many is wrong when the other aspects may be correct). ;)

The other "aspect" as to the "why" is the often ignored threat that JFK intended to expose MJ-12 (Majority /Majic) & the overall UFO cover up. Like a covert "Section 31", MJ-12 (and its successors today) was and are accountable to no-one, including the POTUS. This, I believe, is very much connected, if not the primary reason he was "expedited", especially when you consider that situation today. Again, who had/has the most to lose if JFK exposed them?.

Hi KiwiElf - Please be kind... you have a good point. I had not considered until reading your post that the driver could have done something with a weapon unseen by any video or photo. Yet the evidence that has been cited as "proof" he did, well I had personally discovered on my own was likely simply the glare from the head of the man sitting in the front right passenger seat.

But you are right that he still could have done something. They all wanted him dead yet it is very hard to imagine that "the they" would have been able to penetrate that level of The Secret Service but we also have "the stand down" order which suggests that even the Secret Service was compromised. Perhaps "the they" had blackmail on Greer and others yet also, the stand down order has supposedly been debunked. (https://www.quora.com/John-F-Kennedy-Is-there-a-logical-explanation-for-the-Secret-Service-stand-down-at-the-JFK-assassination)

Now, what is even more interesting is your mention of the UFO/MJ-12 theory. I left it out for one reason and one reason only. A far larger proportion of readers would consider the multiple reasons I mentioned (which are all very well researched and all quite true and all, when combined, important enough on their own to incite the coup), but the fact is that my favorite theory of all is this one you brought up yet I have also found this theory often goes too far for far to many otherwise potentially open minded individuals who then shut down listening altogether.

And the reason why is because if that theory, as I have researched it to have played out, was true... the men who ordered it did so within 'the law' as they interpreted the law. Of course, it was Kennedy's threat to secret 'laws' that were supposedly part of the MJ-12 mandate. And Dulles was supposedly on MJ-12 and in fact was supposedly MJ-1 and all he needed was 6 other votes for "the order" to eliminate Kennedy to be implemented.

My favorite book on this theory is the one put together by Michael Salla. Sadly, soon after he released this book, he fell under "the spell of the Corey Goode Space Myth" and that has had an impact upon me with regards to his critical thinking capabilities.

Still - the UFO/MJ-12 theory is my favorite of all and I am glad you brought it up, KiwiElf.

One more comment to you personally. Thank you for being a member here and making so many contributions. I cannot emphasize more my appreciation for your contributions. Kindly, Sam

[KiwiElf]

:o Thank you Sam :waving:

JFK did make many enemies, and all those and more are legitimate reasons for wanting him removed. (And like the "driver theory", the "MJ-12 coverup angle" are the ones "they" want us to stay away from - the other theories serve "them" as useful distractions to have us arguing about it forever. ie "Look over here..." ;)

Our clue to this is ONI: (Office of Naval Intelligence).
Why on Earth would the Navy be involved with investigating the assassination at all?

Clues:
Bill Cooper worked for Naval Intelligence and was in a "position to know"
but he was not the first to suggest the driver theory. The "dogma" for this to get people off the scent is always "Oh yeah but he was a nutter" - case closed

Bethesda Naval Hospital is the same hospital Secretary Forrestal "fell" from when, as part of the original MJ-12 team, he wanted to tell the public about the true alien situation on Earth & the Roswell Crash - another cover-up. Of course, he was "nuts" too ;)

Area 51/Groom Lake is a Naval Facility, NOT Airforce

According to UFO Retrieval history, 1941: US Navy recovers their first crashed alien craft in the ocean west of San Diego – six years before the infamous ‘Roswell’ crash. Alien craft and bodies taken to Wright-Patterson AFB for study. (US Navy has held a leadership position in UFO matters since).

According to recent theory, the SSP (Secret Space Program) is an extension of the US Navy

(Don't give up on Dr Salla just because he believes in Corey Goode - same "dogma": at work again ;))

You see the pattern & psychology at work here in our petty "dogma"??? And "they" know how to work it; we fall for it every single time :)

[KiwiElf]

Also check out the flow chart here:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?44487-The-CABAL-Theoretical-Functional-Relationships

While it may be theoretical, it's very relevant to the whole JFK Assassination & UFO Cover-up - the very Military Industrial Complex that another POTUS warned us about: ;)

[Bill Ryan]

.
Mods note:

Folks, we've been discussing this again today, and the mods agreed we should indeed have a specific JFK subforum. So I've created it, just now. :thumbsup:

This is the first thread there, but there've been numerous other JFK threads over the years; we'll get round to moving those, or quite a few of those, soon.

Thanks to all for the very interesting discussion here. All excellent stuff. :star:

[Ines]

Final (fatal) shooter: storm drain where the vehicle slowed down.... 7 or 8 "real" shooters in total, 1 fall guy.

Storm Drain, yes. (The shooter was Johnny Roselli.)

Johnny Roselli... the 7th shooter. According to this Article from Veterans Today, By Jim Fetzer on May 1, 2015, where they give the names of 6 shooters.

" Six shooters who participated in the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, including three with ties to the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), were named by a prominent critic of the Warren Commission Report (WCR). Remarkably, Lee Harvey Oswald, the Warren Commission’s lone-assassin-designate, was not among them. "

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2015/05/01/six-jfk-shooters-three-tied-to-cia-named-oswald-not-among-them/

PS... Thank you Bill Ryan, for the JFK Sub-Forum...:thumbsup:

[KiwiElf]

Congratulations Dave and thank you Bill (now, all we need is one for Roswell too... ;))



From Bill: All right, all right! :bigsmile:
--> The Roswell Incident (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/forumdisplay.php?166-The-Roswell-Incident)

Sam, I'm dyin' to see your new thread :)

[Chester]

Cool KiwiElf yet I do feel that your use of the word dogma may over describe what you correctly pointed out regarding Greer or Salla.

First Greer - that being that I had lowered the odds that Greer had somehow "shot" Kennedy and in fact, pretty well ruled it out. Your point made me realize that it would be a mistake for me to rule it out just because I had figured out the head glare was what every video that I saw that suggested the Greer theory used as "proof" Greer. Because of my own conclusions, I focused on other potential shooters. I would not call the "head glare debunking" dogma, I would call it an adjustment in odds that Greer in fact "made the critical head exploding shot." As to who actually took that shot, for me, is far less important as to the why and "who" as a group that was behind it all though knowing that fact might assist in determining the degree of involvement each group may have had in the operation.

As to Salla, like any source of information, I have to rate his credibility. When Salla promoted Goode and when Bill asked Salla about this, I read Salla's response and I am sorry, but I have lowered my own trust and faith in Salla's discernment based on both his promotion of Goode and his response to Bill.

Having said that, I am also aware that the book Salla wrote was almost completely made up of already produced "information" and documents that have been discussed for years as to whether they are real or not or are being interpreted correctly or not. My personal opinion is that Salla put together a great book (JFK's Last Stand) and added some important considerations and theories based on this documentation. The timing factor also is quite interesting (it appeared there was desperation to make Kennedy dead fast as well as Marilyn Monroe). In addition, Salla makes a good case that they had RFK blackmailed (I always wondered why he kept his mouth as shut as he did... if it were my brother, I would have been been screaming to the world about it).

But to call my "lowering of my faith in Salla" to be dogma doesn't seem appropriate. I didn't rule out the possibility the UFO/MJ-12 theory... I pointed out a real circumstance that calls into question Salla's judgment.

BUT! I also have a theory about that! And here it is... perhaps Salla's JFK book caused some feathers to be ruffled and for this reason, he may have been threatened so that he would get on the Corey bandwagon for the very purpose of providing most folks the very reason to question his discernment capabilities. Another possibility is that the book caused him to receive directed energy weaponry attention (remote influencing) that produced what I have determined is an inexplicable shift in the information he produced - that someone who had such a good reputation for reasonably grounded views related to aliens, UFOs and off world matters would suddenly be a huge Corey Goode promoter is a real head-scratcher... again all just my opinion.

Not dogma here... instead, analysis and an ever changing set of probabilities based on information and based on how that information impacts my own subjective operational assumptions of the day.

This (my own thread) will be an interesting thread and will come forth soon, I promise.

[Chester]

Also check out the flow chart here:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?44487-The-CABAL-Theoretical-Functional-Relationships

While it may be theoretical, it's very relevant to the whole JFK Assassination & UFO Cover-up - the very Military Industrial Complex that another POTUS warned us about: ;)

Is there a link to this chart which can be increased in size? My eyes are too poor to read this! Uggghhhh the frustrations of getting old.

[KiwiElf]

Awesome Sam - yes Salla's JFK book, is also cited in RETRIEVALS OF THE 3rd KIND, Michael Schratt (2013) -
There are a few mentions of JFK; here are a couple of extracts (emphasis mine):


What did John F. Kennedy know about UFO crash/retrievals? Did he tell Marilyn Monroe UFO secrets “beneath the sheets?” A recently acquired alleged CIA memo dated August 3, 1962, indicates that President Kennedy made a visit to a secret air-base for the purpose of “inspecting things from outer space.” The memo also makes reference to crashed spacecraft and dead bodies.


Exactly what did JFK know about the overall UFO situation? Was he told UFO/alien related secrets by his good friend U.S Navy Secretary James Forrestal (alleged original member of MJ-12).

According to the recently published book Kennedy’s Last Stand by researcher Michael Salla, the answer appears to be a resounding “yes.” Due to his father’s multiple contacts within the world of politics, finance and the military, Joseph Kennedy was successful in “pulling the strings” for his son John which eventually landed him a position within Naval intelligence. After Joe Kennedy “greased the skids” for his son in 1941, JFK was now in a position to come into the close personal confidence of James Forrestal who served as Secretary of the Navy from 1944-1947. Students of ufology will recall that James Forestall was killed on May 22, 1949 after he allegedly committed suicide by jumping out of the 16th floor window of the Bethesda Naval Hospital. Was he murdered due to a “conflict of interest” between the other members of MJ-12? Was Secretary James Forrestal the first victim of the powerful UFO cover-up?

¤=[Post Update]=¤



Also check out the flow chart here:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?44487-The-CABAL-Theoretical-Functional-Relationships

While it may be theoretical, it's very relevant to the whole JFK Assassination & UFO Cover-up - the very Military Industrial Complex that another POTUS warned us about: ;)

Is there a link to this chart which can be increased in size? My eyes are too poor to read this! Uggghhhh the frustrations of getting old.

Oh, I am sorry - yes just click on the picture/chart directly, it will open up in a window of its own, click it again and you'll get a magnifying glass cursor, click again for full size, quite readable :)

[blackdog]

Johnny Roselli... the 7th shooter. According to this Article from Veterans Today, By Jim Fetzer on May 1, 2015, where they give the names of 6 shooters.

" Six shooters who participated in the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, including three with ties to the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), were named by a prominent critic of the Warren Commission Report (WCR). Remarkably, Lee Harvey Oswald, the Warren Commission’s lone-assassin-designate, was not among them. "


If court reporters had been allowed to take testimony of witnesses to the 9-11 tragedy, things would be different. Of course Judy Wood's testimony would be the greatest.

Jim Fetzer and Judy Wood are not reliable sources of information. They are shills, idiots, or both.

Fetzer published And I Suppose We Didnt Go to the Moon, Either? He wrote the prologue which includes an overview of the 'Paul is Dead' material. During this discussion he decides to quote a story from the Hollywood Inquirer that was later reprinted by worldnewsdailyreport.com. http://worldnewsdailyreport.com/former-b...ook-alike/

Fetzer talking about Ringo Starr article:


It was extremely interesting for me to read a report about Ringo having claimed that Paul had died in 1966 and had been replaced. Because I had done research on this subject for at least three years... I thought it was an extremely clear explanation of what had happened and how Paul's replacement had come about using a look-alike by the name of "Billy Shears".

My colleague, Kevin Barrett, faulted the article because it is alleged to have come from the Hollywood Inquirer, which appears to be no more than a shell web site.

No doubt, the source is not notable; but it is an elementary fallacy to judge the truth or falsity of a claim on the basis of its source. (This is knows as 'the genetic fallacy'.)...

Strictly speaking, of course, we could both be correct, where a source of no reputation nevertheless offers a story that is true, which, indeed is my position about this matter.

He used a story from a non-existent source made up by a joke website that created the fictional story. There is no Hollywood Inquirer, and worldnewsdailyreport.com is clearly a comedy/fake-news website that makes stories up.

This is one of the stupidest things I've ever seen in print, and Fetzer put his name on it.

[Chester]

Hi KiwiElf... it appears Post #116 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?92641-JFK-the-Assassination-of-John-Kennedy&p=1094490&viewfull=1#post1094490) is along the same lines you suggested. There's an expression for this - don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Your point is well made, just because some information may turn out to be false does not mean all information from the same source IS false.

Note that Fetzer simply points out information that came from several researchers. I make odds VERY HIGH that indeed Mac Wallace was a shooter (likely the sixth floor west window) and if so, that creates a direct inference about LBJ's role as an example. In addition, the finger print was found and verified yet it is also possible that this fingerprint was a plant or that those who were involved in the fingerprint matter were in on it.

Still, I have to make odds 99% that it was a coup. Note, my personal rule is to never make anything 100% certain and that my highest rating is 99%.

[blackdog]

The video from the discovery channel... I dunno how much I'd trust that one ;)

Pretty workable angle here:
http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/drain/DRAIN14B.JPG

http://www.jfklancer.com/photos/drain/DRAIN12B.JPG

Looks very plausible from this:
http://www.jfktruth.org/drain/JFKGoogleSVManHole.jpg

If I am reading your post correctly, Jaynes moves the assassination point up about twenty yards to make the shot possible, and having done that, only his head is visible. And from what I assume are your Google Earth pics, that means JFK would be almost to the stairs. Yet that is clearly incorrect because we can see in the Moorman pic and in the the Marie Muchmore video that he is clearly before the stairs.

I think this Greg Jaynes guy proves my point. I dont like trusting Discovery channel either, but their results appear accurate in this case. If the assassination point is moved back to its correct spot, JFK wouldnt be visible. Plus, if there was a shooter in that drain, he would be aiming at a moving target that had just come into view. The probability is extremely low, imo.

[Chester]

Regarding the assassination spot, they have an X that marks the spot of the fatal head shot(s). Based on all the times I have been down there to the assassination site and the films, and photos I have seen, it is my opinion that the X has to be pretty accurate. I will search my own photos now. I am pretty sure the X is a good 20 feet before the steps - here's a quick photo of the X (https://www.google.com/search?q=jfk+x+marks+the+spot&biw=1120&bih=641&tbm=isch&imgil=btUvit5zhXsbVM%253A%253BVcwQPYw3b8OnBM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fcityhallblog.dallasnews.co m%25252F2013%25252F11%25252Fin-dealey-plaza-the-x-that-marked-the-spot-on-elm-street-where-kennedy-was-killed-has-returned.html%25252F&source=iu&pf=m&fir=btUvit5zhXsbVM%253A%252CVcwQPYw3b8OnBM%252C_&usg=__8SfwaL2Pwgh5uaMtjmhLWdqV-Tk%3D&ved=0ahUKEwi-3MCDrezOAhVG3WMKHQR-Dw0QyjcIPQ&ei=CSvHV_6zGMa6jwOE_L1o#imgrc=btUvit5zhXsbVM%3A) found on the net.

EDIT added: Here we go (https://ryanvbontheroad.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/grassy-knoll1.jpg)... a good 20 or 30 feet at least before the steps.

[blackdog]

Regarding the assassination spot, they have an X that marks the spot of the fatal head shot(s). Based on all the times I have been down there to the assassination site and the films, and photos I have seen, it is my opinion that the X has to be pretty accurate. I will search my own photos now. I am pretty sure the X is a good 20 feet before the steps - here's a quick photo of the X (https://www.google.com/search?q=jfk+x+marks+the+spot&biw=1120&bih=641&tbm=isch&imgil=btUvit5zhXsbVM%253A%253BVcwQPYw3b8OnBM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fcityhallblog.dallasnews.co m%25252F2013%25252F11%25252Fin-dealey-plaza-the-x-that-marked-the-spot-on-elm-street-where-kennedy-was-killed-has-returned.html%25252F&source=iu&pf=m&fir=btUvit5zhXsbVM%253A%252CVcwQPYw3b8OnBM%252C_&usg=__8SfwaL2Pwgh5uaMtjmhLWdqV-Tk%3D&ved=0ahUKEwi-3MCDrezOAhVG3WMKHQR-Dw0QyjcIPQ&ei=CSvHV_6zGMa6jwOE_L1o#imgrc=btUvit5zhXsbVM%3A) found on the net.

You can see the X in those pictures.

[Chester]

see the update to my last post, blackdog... there's a good angle and it shows the steps well after the X.

[TargeT]

[QUOTE=TargeT;1094226]
If I am reading your post correctly, Jaynes moves the assassination point up about twenty yards to make the shot possible, and having done that, only his head is visible. And from what I assume are your Google Earth pics, that means JFK would be almost to the stairs. Yet that is clearly incorrect because we can see in the Moorman pic and in the the Marie Muchmore video that he is clearly before the stairs.

I think this Greg Jaynes guy prooves my point. I dont like trusting Discovery channel either, but their results appear accurate in this case. If the assassination point is moved back to its correct spot, JFK wouldnt be visible. Plus, if there was a shooter in that drain, he would be aiming at a moving target that had just come into view. The probability is extremely low, imo.

well, yes and no.
34136
I didn't elaborate, but think about how much that view changes with 10" of asphalt removed, the angle looks very right, the height is the issue, but those 10" removed... well then you have a very nice shot, one that would allow you to conceal the weapon entirely in the drain for even a longer barrelled rifle.
34137

This also lines up with how his body reacted to the shot.. it had to come from the front of the car somewhere, more front than side.

[Chester]

Here's my own photo - the X can be seen if you click the photo and then enlarge -

34139

Note I am only showing this as information. I don't have a dog in the hunt as to who did what from where.

We cannot even be sure that X is in the right spot. The whole event has been massively managed and if I were one or a part of "them" I am sure I would do that too.

[Chester]

Plus, if there was a shooter in that drain, he would be aiming at a moving target that had just come into view. The probability is extremely low, imo.

The rate of movement at the moment of the kill shot(s) was almost a standstill. At that close range and angle, if the shot were possible, an expert would have no problem making it IMO.

[blackdog]

Plus, if there was a shooter in that drain, he would be aiming at a moving target that had just come into view. The probability is extremely low, imo.

The rate of movement at the moment of the kill shot(s) was almost a standstill. At that close range and angle, if the shot were possible, an expert would have no problem making it IMO.

He cant even see the target.

[Chester]

Plus, if there was a shooter in that drain, he would be aiming at a moving target that had just come into view. The probability is extremely low, imo.

The rate of movement at the moment of the kill shot(s) was almost a standstill. At that close range and angle, if the shot were possible, an expert would have no problem making it IMO.

He cant even see the target.

Hi blackdog, Understand... yet you are stating this as fact and my only question is, how has this been established as fact (I don't watch Discovery if that is your source, so I would not have seen it proven). Thanks... Sam

Added: Target's post points out the difference in street height which surely should be considered with regards to the room the potential shooter had.

[blackdog]

I didn't elaborate, but think about how much that view changes with 10" of asphalt removed, the angle looks very right, the height is the issue, but those 10" removed... well then you have a very nice shot, one that would allow you to conceal the weapon entirely in the drain for even a longer barrelled rifle.

It doesnt change at all. The edge of the drain is in the same place. ...unless the shooter is leaning out of the drain and into the road. JFK is at least twenty yards back from where Jaynes is. Even when he came into view it would be an awkward shot and the view would likely have been obstructed. Anything is possible, but this is very low probability.

[blackdog]

Hi blackdog, Understand... yet you are stating this as fact and my only question is, how has this been established as fact (I don't watch Discovery if that is your source, so I would not have seen it proven). Thanks... Sam

I have posted the video in this thread. I have also posted pics of Dealey plaza that show the X, among other things.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?92641-JFK-the-Assassination-of-John-Kennedy&p=1093127&viewfull=1#post1093127

Edit: I am not stating anything as fact. I'm drawing conclusions from the pictures and evidence we have seen, and I'm surprised that few agree. The shot could have come from anywhere. I'm talking about probability.

[TargeT]

It doesnt change at all. The edge of the drain is in the same place. ...unless the shooter is leaning out of the drain and into the road. JFK is at least twenty yards back from where Jaynes is. Even when he came into view it would be an awkward shot and the view would have likely been obstructed. Anything is possible, but this is very low probability.

yeah, it does.. the problem is the vertical component.. 20 yards at that distance (76 feet IIRC) is maybe 1-1.5" of difference in sideways motion, but VERTICALLY (with the asphalt build up) it couldn't happen.. with out the asphalt it could easily happen for the vertical component.


Here's my own photo - the X can be seen if you click the photo and then enlarge -

34139

Note I am only showing this as information. I don't have a dog in the hunt as to who did what from where.

We cannot even be sure that X is in the right spot. The whole event has been massively managed and if I were one or a part of "them" I am sure I would do that too.

assuming this portion of the video is legit (seems to be):
m8_hDakTz2I

That does not indicate a shot from an elevated area, If I shot him from up there he would have been knocked sideways mostly and down, not back mostly and left... (every action has an equal and opposite re-action, just using a bit of Occam's razor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor) to his movement), that's all I'm basing my thoughts on, and the fact that maybe the drain had a viable angle.

Also, why would this cop be looking at the drain? If I heard a shot from the hill above, I wouldn't bother looking at the drain.. for anyone east of the drain (where JFK's car drove from) it could easily be misconstrued as a gunshot from the hill.. most civilians can't even differentiate the sounds made by different calibers, much less place more than a "general direction" for incoming fire.. Cops (I would assume) should be better at this.
.
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m635/quaneeri/Haygood.jpg
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m635/quaneeri/Haygood.jpg




Plus, if there was a shooter in that drain, he would be aiming at a moving target that had just come into view. The probability is extremely low, imo.

The rate of movement at the moment of the kill shot(s) was almost a standstill. At that close range and angle, if the shot were possible, an expert would have no problem making it IMO.

many eyewitnesses say complete stop.. I think this is why the cop that was near the storm drain laid his bike on it's side.. they were stopped.

[Chester]

Hey to make sure no one gets the wrong idea about my own opinions as to where the shots came from... and whether there was or was not a shooter in the storm drain. Target makes a good case based on the action of Kennedy's head movement and blackdog is making a plausible case that the shot angle may not have been there, what I wonder from both of you is... do you think this was a coup?

I can already assume Target would say, Yes... but what is your theory and assumption(s) (if any) blackdog?

EDIT Update: I did not read many other posts in this thread until just this moment (5:15 Central Daylight Time) and I now understand that blackdog does indeed see the assassination as a conspiracy by citing it appears (in his opinion) that the kill shot came from the grassy knoll.

[TargeT]

Hey to make sure no one gets the wrong idea about my own opinions as to where the shots came from... and whether there was or was not a shooter in the storm drain. Target makes a good case based on the action of Kennedy's head movement and blackdog is making a plausible case that the shot angle may not have been there, what I wonder from both of you is... do you think this was a coup?

I can already assume Target would say, Yes... but what is your theory and assumption(s) (if any) blackdog?

I think a COUP happens when one party in power is taken out by another power... I don't think JFK was ever a "power", or at least never really a part of "the power structure" that ruled then... I'd say it was more of a clean up move.. they thought they could black mail him or leverage him in some way to "play ball".... but couldn't, so they just removed him before he went too far.

Maybe also a subtle reminder to "stay in line" to the rest of the people they were "leveraging".

But I don't know a ton about the political environment of the time, so I could be missing some things.

[Chester]

Hey to make sure no one gets the wrong idea about my own opinions as to where the shots came from... and whether there was or was not a shooter in the storm drain. Target makes a good case based on the action of Kennedy's head movement and blackdog is making a plausible case that the shot angle may not have been there, what I wonder from both of you is... do you think this was a coup?

I can already assume Target would say, Yes... but what is your theory and assumption(s) (if any) blackdog?

I think a COUP happens when one party in power is taken out by another power... I don't think JFK was ever a "power", or at least never really a part of "the power structure" that ruled then... I'd say it was more of a clean up move.. they thought they could black mail him or leverage him in some way to "play ball".... but couldn't, so they just removed him before he went too far.

Maybe also a subtle reminder to "stay in line" to the rest of the people they were "leveraging".

But I don't know a ton about the political environment of the time, so I could be missing some things.

I see I should have better clarified my question to blackdog as I do not know his view.

Was this an action taken by "a lone gunman" or was it a conspiracy?

It is clear that however the event would be characterized, that Target is not a proponent of the former, but a proponent of the latter.

[enigma3]

No bullet was fired from a storm drain.
The Dallas PD dictaphone tape records 7 shots fired.
The limo was going downhill to get under the triple overpass. Thus the first bullet trajectory angle is consistent with a shot fired from under the overpass.
The Zapruder film was indeed doctored at the Kodak skunk works. They were able to remove the pink spray that exited JFK's head after the grassy knoll shot and remove some frames from the film. But it does not change the true story.
Don't believe anything spewed by any mass media TV outlet. Discovery, the History Channel, A&E, all of them are mouthpieces for the elites.

[blackdog]

I think a COUP happens when one party in power is taken out by another power... I don't think JFK was ever a "power", or at least never really a part of "the power structure" that ruled then... I'd say it was more of a clean up move.. they thought they could black mail him or leverage him in some way to "play ball".... but couldn't, so they just removed him before he went too far.

Maybe also a subtle reminder to "stay in line" to the rest of the people they were "leveraging".

Agreed. He was stirring things up and posing a threat to the powers that be and their agenda. He had disputes with the CIA and Allen Dulles, a major power player, and he was a threat to the continuation and escalation of Vietnam, among other things.

Like TargeT says, it may have been a display of power, showing people in the US and around the world that the network in charge can get to anyone at any time and place.

It wasnt exactly a coup though. The power players and their agenda were always there. They did the same thing with MLK and RFK.


I see I should have better clarified my question to blackdog as I do not know his view.

Was this an action taken by "a lone gunman" or was it a conspiracy?

It was a pretty blatant conspiracy. Shooting Oswald on national TV and then telling the world Jack Ruby, the mafia-affiliated owner of a strip club, felt bad for JFK's wife and kids is a joke.

[Spellbound]

Hey....we finally got a JFK sub-forum!!

Thank you Avalon!!

Dave - Toronto

¤=[Post Update]=¤


.
Mods note:

Folks, we've been discussing this again today, and the mods agreed we should indeed have a specific JFK subforum. So I've created it, just now. :thumbsup:

This is the first thread there, but there've been numerous other JFK threads over the years; we'll get round to moving those, or quite a few of those, soon.

Thanks to all for the very interesting discussion here. All excellent stuff. :star:

Thx Bill. I hope I wasn't too insistent (insert smiley face here).

Dave - Toronto

[KiwiElf]

Excerpt discussing Kennedy’s Last Stand: Eisenhower, UFOs, MJ-12 and JFK’s Assassination by Michael E. Salla, Ph.D.,

In searching for answers to who killed President Kennedy we need to start with the death of his mentor, James Forrestal in 1949. Forrestal became the first Secretary of Defense in 1947, a position he held until March, 1949. Forrestal was a visionary who thought Americans had a right to know about the existence of extraterrestrial life and technologies. Forrestal was sacked by President Truman because he was revealing the truth to various officials, including Kennedy who was a Congressman at the time. Forrestal’s ideals and vision inspired Kennedy, and laid the seed for what would happen 12 years later.

After winning the 1960 Presidential election, Kennedy learned a shocking truth from President Eisenhower. The control group set up to run highly classified extraterrestrial technologies, Majestic-12, had become a rogue government agency. Eisenhower warned Kennedy that Majestic-12 had to be reined in. It posed a direct threat to American liberties and democratic processes. Kennedy followed Eisenhower’s advice, and set out to realize James Forrestal’s vision. The same forces that orchestrated Forrestal’s death, opposed Kennedy’s efforts at every turn. When Kennedy was on the verge of succeeding, by forcing the CIA to share classified UFO information with other government agencies on November 12, 1963, he was assassinated ten days later.

Kennedy’s Last Stand is a book about how two American Presidents, Eisenhower and Kennedy, confronted “black world” operations outside of the control of “white world” constitutional government representatives. Kennedy’s Last Stand reveals how JFK tried to realize his friend’s and mentor’s vision of a world where humanity openly knows about extraterrestrial life. The book reveals for the first time, the principal government officials responsible for denying that vision, and orchestrating the assassination of President Kennedy.

NOTE: Is this book ( PDF)available from the Avalon Library?

[Chester]

Looking at the scene from above straight down via Google Earth -

The first photo shows the scene. Even the X shows up on Google Earth -

34140

I drew two lines. The black line is parallel with the sidewalk. The red line is the angle of the shot from the storm drain.

34141

It would be tight but it does appear possible to me.

[KiwiElf]

Yeah but again, JFK's head is pointing the other way (to the left), the angles don't match the head wound from a drain shot ;) (that is, if we assume the autopsy pics/testimonies are accurate, and maybe they're not - and maybe, there are more head shots that appear as one?) ;)

One or the other is wrong - logically, they cannot both be right.

(However, could witnesses who believed they heard shots from the grassy knoll be confusing the grassy knoll location with the drain? - they are close - but not for the fatal shot) - Sounds echoing around can play tricks on people's perceptions.

I'm also curious about the claimed belief that "the limo came to a (almost) standstill" - in the Zapruder footage, it appears to slow down a bit before and after the fatal shot, but not much... ? It maintains a good "jogging speed" and then speeds up after the agent jumps on the back ...

The "original" Zapruder footage, un-enhanced (likely a copy not the original)

kq1PbgeBoQ4

The digitally remastered version

P74Q2NUBmGk

[KiwiElf]

Jim Fetzer and Judy Wood are not reliable sources of information. They are shills, idiots, or both.

According to whom? :)

[7alon]

The angles don't work because of the autopsy photos and the position of the car when each shot is fired (to me, anyway. Did you refer back to the two pics I added?) ;) You need to compare the map, each step of the Zapbruder footage, each shot, where everyone's sitting and how Connally got hit, too.

The grassy knoll shooter works for the throat shot, but not the others.

The Zapbruder footage is clearer in the movie THE KILLING OF AMERICA - 1981 before they started "enhancing" it but you will have to step frame it - at least it's not cropped. It's still the best publicly available evidence. (You can even see the puff of smoke fired from the "alleged" weapon by the driver and his left arm reaching over his shoulder! Unfortunately, it was a "banned" video in the US - I wonder why? ;) - and it was removed from video shops shortly after its release, YouTube etc. - I have both. - It may be available on torrent sites). Can't see that in the "enhanced versions" ;)

I'd have to draw a pile of diagrams with a top down view to better explain it, but the 6 shots explained by Groden in my earlier post pretty well sum it up, and yeah I'm still favouring the driver theory for the fatal shot atm irrespective that it's been debunked (they've all been debunked). Why? Because atm, it still makes the most logical sense based on the evidence;

* the fact that the driver lied in his testimony
* the angles "work" - all of them,
* the massive fatal wound "works" (and Cooper's description of the weapon and why)
* the autopsy pics "work" (including the clear tampering of the earlier ones)
* Jackie only testified in the Warren Commission - she never spoke of it again. It's plausible she was coached with the "picking up her husband's brains" excuse (did she have a choice?)
* I'm convinced by Jackie's actions that she is trying to get out of the car - she doesn't look at the trunk, see his brains and then think - "oh.. I'll pick up his brain bits"; ;) she literally dumps JFK off her lap & jumps straight out without looking at what might be on the trunk (and is pushed back into the car again by the agent following the car).
* the tie in to Bethesda Naval Hospital - same hospital that Secretary Forrestal "fell out the window" to his death (Forrestal was an original member of MJ-12 and wanted to tell the public)

Then there's Cooper's testimony (Cooper didn't get to where he was in Naval Intelligence at the time if he was a liar or nutter and he was in a position to "know"). Why would he risk the flak that would come publicly if he was making it up? (Not to mention instantly making him a "dead man walking" - you need to read that section in Behold a Pale Horse) and then wade through all the other theories. Furthermore, it has been seen that the public version(s) of the Zapbruder footage has been tampered with, as he stated. (I saw one of the original video tapes that Cooper (& Lear) were showing at his lectures that he claims is hidden from the public - it does show it quite clearly and it is different from the ones you see on YouTube).

Of course "they'd" debunk it because that would be irrefutable proof that the "agency" was involved. An inside "government" job, involving Bush & Johnson etc as well. A Cabal killing. (Also JFK's threat to crush the CIA, expose MJ-12, and what was really on the Moon just before the shooting to me is the strongest motive. He had to be "expedited").

Just call me... very suspicious :)

I found that film you were talking about

http://putlocker.plus/the-killing-of-america-1981-full-movie-putlocker-megashare9.html

10:25 shows kennedy being shot. I don't know what you mean when you said you can see the driver or smoke from the gun, as the film shown in the documentary is zoomed in on kennedy.

Edit: I found this gem linked on educateyourself.com

e1uoQbluW1w
g63nVa0tmEA

You can see that although the frame is blurry, when the frame transitions to the next frame, Greer did indeed have his hand up.

[TargeT]

I'm also curious about the claimed belief that "the limo came to a (almost) standstill" - in the Zapruder footage, it appears to slow down a bit before and after the fatal shot, but not much... ? It maintains a good "jogging speed" and then speeds up after the agent jumps on the back ...


All films I have seen of the incident show evidence of editing (compared to editing standards of today, very SLOPPY editing) so I'm very ambiguous about all this.. however, analysis of the video and witnesses agree..

jNMuUKjwzlk

ALTBVNnmops

zLUB6oju-0I


Evidence for "shot from the front":
lxGrkJ1FUy0


Lots of interesting things to suck your attention and time ;)

[KiwiElf]

@7alon
Good that you found it ... but that putlocker version is quite poor quality. :( You need to advance further into the segment to about the 15-16:00 mark. Sounds like you're watching the beginning of the segment which does begin with a very tight zoom in).

Then... Go to my post #42... :) (I later added I'd found a very good quality torrent on Pirate Bay & suggested it be downloaded, and slowed down - VLC as a good player. (The largest of the piratebay choices is the best in MKV format. Downloading it also gives you the ability to loop it, slow or speed it up, alter the contrast, brightness, saturation & sharpness etc. (I do that with YouTube vids too; I download them - the real "interesting ones" have a habit of "disappearing" :))

Nice find for the other 2 tho :thumbsup:

@TargeT
Also nice find! (and explains a lot!) It also reinforces my earlier comment, that as Cooper said, the split seconds before and after the fatal shot in all the public copies of the Zapruder footage are missing ;))
-------------------------------------------------------
Don't know whether either of you have looked at the two videos back at post #138, (un-enhanced & remastered) but compare the difference, particularly the apparent damage to JFK's head - what do you see? (Again, it will be a whole lot better if you can download and study them ;))

[Spellbound]

The idea that the limo driver shot Kennedy is pure poppycock.

Dave - Toronto

[Spellbound]

Sometimes I wonder if the shooters themselves know which of them hit and which of them missed. I also wonder if they knew each other, or was it so compartmentalized that none of the shooters knew of one another, each operating separately under separate orders.

Dave - Toronto

[Chester]

When you watch the last video in this post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?92641-JFK-the-Assassination-of-John-Kennedy&p=1094690&viewfull=1#post1094690) what is seen is that the backseat is almost perfectly perpendicular to the camera at the moment his head explodes... and his head clearly goes back, to the left. It seems impossible that the shot could have come from a direction other than from the front, right. And it is quite plausible that the shot came from a lower angle based on the action of the head which acts as if he was hit with an uppercut (a boxing term for a punch that comes from below and hits the chin).

I have been behind that fence many times and have observed that potential shot while focusing on the X. Based on where someone would be standing with a rifle riding on the fence, where the car was when at least one of the potentially two fatal blows occurred and about how high Kennedy's head was while riding in the car at that same moment, the angle of the shot would have been slightly downward but not much.

[KiwiElf]

Hi Sam, Given Target's last video @ #141 above, I'm not disagreeing with you :): this Dr. adds some interesting evidence - they're talking 3 skull shots as opposed to 1; front above JFK's right eye, (frontal shot), right side above his ear, (front/side shot), and one to the back of the skull (rear shot). He hasn't used the Zapruder footage at all - his analysis is purely medical evidence. If this is correct, then the Zapruder footage really has been stuffed around with big time, as has the Mary Moorman footage, (TargeT's 3rd video above that). The car braking to a stop (1st & 2nd video certainly shows that has been chopped from all the public Zapruder & Moorman footage (s).

@ Dave & blackdog with respect, - saying something is just "poppycock" or "nuts" (or calling people like Judy Woods "idiots or shills" etc), without any reasoning or justification to back it up, doesn't really add anything, does it? What's missing is the "why?" ;)

The problem with an opinion is that everybody has one, (and yes, we're all entitled to have 'em), but what are yours based on? Opinions, without basis, are just "baseless opinions" (and not necessarily facts) :)

Dave, you wanted a sub-forum for JFK, you got it. At least be open to other theories that do have some reasonable evidence behind them.

The evidence for the driver (OR drain theory) is as good as any other, (certainly better than an entire book attempting to justify an "accidental shot" by an agent, or the Warren Commission's flawed conclusions). The above evidence suggests 3 skull hits. Please, show us the evidence for your "opinions" with some reasoning to go with it - either way - instead of just "dissing" something you don't personally agree with. :idea:

[KiwiElf]

All films I have seen of the incident show evidence of editing (compared to editing standards of today, very SLOPPY editing) so I'm very ambiguous about all this.. however, analysis of the video and witnesses agree..
Lots of interesting things to suck your attention and time ;)

Yeah, me too, more than ever! (I did watch all of your last posted videos!)

Pre PhotoShop, you couldn't do much with 8mm film directly; however, (and very expensive & time-consuming), back then, you could take the original 8mm film, create huge prints off each frame, and literally "stick" your "wizardry" onto the print, (literally cut and paste - with scissors!) re-photograph it, and then put it back onto 8mm film, one frame at a time. We used to do it in the ad agency I worked for back in the day (not often, because it took soooo long & cost a bomb!).

These days, even an amateur can get get a better result. PhotoShop users know what can be done quite easily with the "Clone" Tool: "stuph" can be added or deleted almost magically. As Enigma quite correctly stated, modern technology can both enhance an old photo or film brilliantly, and also completely & believably alter it. I believe the latter is what we're seeing in a lot of examples (which is why I recommended studying the earlier examples of the Zapruder footage, warts, hairs, bubbles and all! Even the earliest public examples would appear to have been "manipulated" considerably)

We don't have the benefit of the "true originals" in any of this... ;)

[blackdog]

@ Dave & blackdog with respect, - saying something is just "poppycock" or "nuts" (or calling people like Judy Woods "idiots or shills" etc), without any reasoning or justification to back it up, doesn't really add anything, does it? What's missing is the "why?" ;)

The problem with an opinion is that everybody has one, (and yes, we're all entitled to have 'em), but what are yours based on? Opinions, without basis, are just "baseless opinions" (and not necessarily facts) :)

I believe I posted a very specific example of Fetzer quoting a fictional source. There's a famous video of Judy Wood humiliating herself in an interview with a physicist.

I've given reasons for everything I've said. I'm open to shots from anywhere. There just has to be good evidence.

If you want to say the driver shot JFK, then you'll have to explain why they set up this elaborate shooting range in Dealey Plaza only to stop the car in front of hundred of viewers and have the driver just turn around and shoot him. It's just not as likely as other scenarios.

[Chester]

@ Dave & blackdog with respect, - saying something is just "poppycock" or "nuts" (or calling people like Judy Woods "idiots or shills" etc), without any reasoning or justification to back it up, doesn't really add anything, does it? What's missing is the "why?" ;)

The problem with an opinion is that everybody has one, (and yes, we're all entitled to have 'em), but what are yours based on? Opinions, without basis, are just "baseless opinions" (and not necessarily facts) :)

I believe I posted a very specific example of Fetzer quoting a fictional source. There's a famous video of Judy Wood humiliating herself in an interview with a physicist.

I've given reasons for everything I've said. I'm open to shots from anywhere. There just has to be good evidence.

If you want to say the driver shot JFK, then you'll have to explain why they set up this elaborate shooting range in Dealey Plaza only to stop the car in front of hundred of viewers and have the driver just turn around and shoot him. It's just not as likely as other scenarios.

If information coming from a human source can only be valid if that human source is provably flawless would mean there would probably never be valid information coming from any human source ever.

Yet also, if a human source has generated a great deal of false or largely false information and/or that human source has demonstrated behaviors that call their integrity into question, then, to the degree of either/or of these "problems" we might have good cause to lower our expectations with regards to how much we should rely on their information.

I try and stay away from black and white and I also tend to place less validity on opinions coming from sources who demonstrate black/white thinking.

In addition, trolls (paid or not) often use this very form of "information invalidation." In the case of paid trolls who do this, there is an agenda the troll is pushing. In the case of a non-paid troll, there may also be an agenda, but there may also simply be the expression of malcontent and the desire to handle that by playing the role of 'wrecking ball.'

I found both KiwiElf's comments and Targets comments helpful over the last several pages of this thread. Yet I also felt an open mindedness as to the various possibilities from both (and I, personally, greatly appreciate their form of exchange and the feeling I get from them with regards to remaining open minded). This form of exchange raises the quality of the forum IMO.

Apologies for the editorial.

Now... Hopefully we might start looking more at 'the why(s)' he was assassinated.

I would love to see a thread started regarding the UFO/MJ-12 angle for example. A single thread dedicated to this reason (even though this reason likely bleeds over to other reasons).

[Clickalot]

I just found this one

U1Qt6a-vaNM

Great docu

[Clickalot]

The fatal shot came from the sewers
Just check the youtube video I posted
Great video

[TargeT]

The fatal shot came from the sewers
Just check the youtube video I posted
Great video

If you had read the first page of this thread, you'll see that a lot of the following pages are discussing this, based on that very video (posted on the first page of this thread (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?92641-JFK-the-Assassination-of-John-Kennedy&p=1092850&viewfull=1#post1092850)).

Jumping into the conversation late and not reading the 8 pages of discussion we had is going to be difficult.

[Spellbound]

Dave, you wanted a sub-forum for JFK, you got it. At least be open to other theories that do have some reasonable evidence behind them.

The evidence for the driver (OR drain theory) is as good as any other, (certainly better than an entire book attempting to justify an "accidental shot" by an agent, or the Warren Commission's flawed conclusions). The above evidence suggests 3 skull hits. Please, show us the evidence for your "opinions" with some reasoning to go with it - either way - instead of just "dissing" something you don't personally agree with. :idea:

Hi KiwiElf,

Fair enough, I respect your pov here (as well as all of your input into this thread). I just think the theory that the driver leaned backwards and shot JFK in front of hundreds (thousands??) of people in plain sight is rather strange. I've never bought into that theory. I will say this though, if that is what happened....it takes balls.

I'm just happy we finally got a JFK sub-forum.

Dave - Toronto

[Spellbound]

Strange that any new postings in this sub-forum don't show up in the "newest posts" on the right side of the main page. I noticed that started right after the sub-forum was created. Perhaps it's just me.

Dave - Toronto

[TargeT]

Dave, you wanted a sub-forum for JFK, you got it. At least be open to other theories that do have some reasonable evidence behind them.

The evidence for the driver (OR drain theory) is as good as any other, (certainly better than an entire book attempting to justify an "accidental shot" by an agent, or the Warren Commission's flawed conclusions). The above evidence suggests 3 skull hits. Please, show us the evidence for your "opinions" with some reasoning to go with it - either way - instead of just "dissing" something you don't personally agree with. :idea:

Hi KiwiElf,

Fair enough, I respect your pov here (as well as all of your input into this thread). I just think the theory that the driver leaned backwards and shot JFK in front of hundreds (thousands??) of people in plain sight is rather strange. I've never bought into that theory. I will say this though, if that is what happened....it takes balls.


I don't think so either.. except for this: at least 1 medical expert thinks there were multiple skull shots, IF the driver did stop the car (sure seems like that is the case) he was definitely in on it and definitely colluding to ensure a head-shot occurred. With the panic of the situation and around 4-5 (maybe 6) shots missing his head, I don't see it as completely implausible that the driver shot him, the storm drain shooter shot him & the gnoll shooter shot him at nearly the same time (or slightly (fractions of the same second) different times, the video has been obviously edited.)

Either way it's a fun speculation problem.... by the time the limo reached the X we KNOW there were several shots taken; if panic by the conspirators had not ensued by then... when would it? Multiple shots might even explain the excessive damage seen in this head shot that is not standard.

[Spellbound]

Oh, I quite agree that the limo driver must have been in on it as he certainly did slow down in order for the shooters to have JFK in their sights. I just don't think the driver would have the nerve or guts to shoot in front of all those people. Too much chance of getting caught. My 2 cents (Canadian).

Dave - Toronto

[TargeT]

Oh, I quite agree that the limo driver must have been in on it as he certainly did slow down in order for the shooters to have JFK in their sights. I just don't think the driver would have the nerve or guts to shoot in front of all those people. Too much chance of getting caught. My 2 cents (Canadian).

Dave - Toronto

How much do you think any of these individuals cared about being caught.. they had at LEAST 6 shooters in place.. witnesses said it sounded like fireworks going off... IMO they had zero ****s to give.. this **** was going to happen and they'd figure out the rest afterwards (like they've done so many times before).

[Spellbound]

Oh, I quite agree that the limo driver must have been in on it as he certainly did slow down in order for the shooters to have JFK in their sights. I just don't think the driver would have the nerve or guts to shoot in front of all those people. Too much chance of getting caught. My 2 cents (Canadian).

Dave - Toronto

How much do you think any of these individuals cared about being caught.. they had at LEAST 6 shooters in place.. witnesses said it sounded like fireworks going off... IMO they had zero ****s to give.. this **** was going to happen and they'd figure out the rest afterwards (like they've done so many times before).

Could be. That was certainly the case with Ruby.

Dave - Toronto

[7alon]

Oh, I quite agree that the limo driver must have been in on it as he certainly did slow down in order for the shooters to have JFK in their sights. I just don't think the driver would have the nerve or guts to shoot in front of all those people. Too much chance of getting caught. My 2 cents (Canadian).

Dave - Toronto

How much do you think any of these individuals cared about being caught.. they had at LEAST 6 shooters in place.. witnesses said it sounded like fireworks going off... IMO they had zero ****s to give.. this **** was going to happen and they'd figure out the rest afterwards (like they've done so many times before).

They must have been really desperate to get rid of him. He must have been really close to exposing some real big stuff. That's just my opinion considering how reckless this was.

[Chester]

Oh, I quite agree that the limo driver must have been in on it as he certainly did slow down in order for the shooters to have JFK in their sights. I just don't think the driver would have the nerve or guts to shoot in front of all those people. Too much chance of getting caught. My 2 cents (Canadian).

Dave - Toronto

There were not very many people in that immediate area when the assassination occurred... estimates are around 600 witnesses (http://22november1963.org.uk/jfk-assassination-grassy-knoll-witnesses). How many of those may have been close enough to see if Greer appeared to have a gun and made motions that he may have used it on Kennedy? Also, of those near enough to have seen if Greer did, when the shots rang out... what do you think you would be doing? I would be ducking and/or running... and if I thought to look at anything, I would be looking at where those first shots came from. And then we have the phenomena that can happen when someone sees something traumatic and just can't register what they saw. Also note, of the 600, only 200 were interviewed. Maybe some of the non 200 saw something and realized they better just keep their mouth shut, especially after Oswald was named (only hours after the assassination).

To me, it is entirely believable (Greer in on it). Also, when we watch some of these videos in real motion and also slow motion, Greer's actions seem pretty odd. The way he turned toward Kennedy and then BLAM and then he turns right back forward and hits the gas.... perhaps he really could have been in on it.

And just think of the brilliance of the idea to have all sorts of different shooters where perhaps most may not have known about the others or if they did, not all of the others. If ever there was an assassination that could NOT fail, this was it.

If I were the folks in charge of the coup (I call it that because that is what it technically is if elements of a government take the power away from the 'leader guy' (leader in the eyes of the general public - the asleeple))... I would have made certain that Kennedy would have no chance to survive no matter what.

Greer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Greer) was the best bet to make sure that happened.

[Spellbound]

I understand this theory of Greer shooting JFK point blank from the front of the car has many people intrigued...I just think that would be very reckless for an assassin in public view like that (Ruby killing Oswald be damned). I realize they wanted him dead. He was being hunted from city to city. But imo, he was killed by snipers hidden away from public view. I just don't think hidden in plain sight applies here (not for a president anyways).

Dave - Toronto

[Atlas]

Rose Cheramie (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/cheramie.txt) (Melba Christine Marcades) predicted JFK assassination:
qXzxUjNPDzA
http://www.baylor.edu/content/imglib/6/8/5/68573.jpg

[Betty]

Blackdog, I didn't see your post until now. Regarding only one autopsy. No there's evidence of 2 autopsies.

Description of autopsy room: In "Death of a President" by Manchester, General Godfrey McHugh describes he had to go down some stairs to the autopsy or morgue room. He also describes a washing machine, medical scales, a jigsaw.
O'Connor drew a description of the autopsy roomhttp://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md201/pages/md201_0001a.gif Note no stairs, no room for a jigsaw, no room for a washing machine.

Start time of autopsy Dennis David, Officer of the Day, reported he saw Mrs. Kennedy drive up as x-rays of the body were being brought upstairs to be developed. Humes reported that the autopsy started at 7:30pm. Lieutenant Sam Bird reported that the body wasn't brought to the morgue/autopsy room until 8pm.

Body that was autopsied. The body that Hume's autosied couldn't have been Kennedy's. Kennedy had chest tubes and IVs inserted at Parkland and the body that Hume's autopsied never had chest tubes or IV's inserted.

Autopsy photos The House Select Committee on Assassinations stated the photos were so bad that it was the work of an amateur never schooled in the science of autopsy photos. Hume's photographer was John Stringer one of the best medical photographers of that time. He did use an old fashioned camera and the investigators found the photos could not have been taken by that camera. Baden who was in charge of the medical investigation assumed the autopists had the student, Floyd Riebe, take the pictures. You need to listen to John Stringer's testimony to know that Floyd Riebe did not take those photos. Also read Riebe's testimony to see how full of holes it is.

Knudsen's family gives a very compelling testimony to the ARRB that their husband/father took those photos. There is a taped interview but no transcripts.

Regarding who fire the shot, I am not allowed to say. That's ok. I realize that whoever who is in charge has their reasons.

Regarding Vincent Bugliosi: I find the people who say they are conspiracy theorists twist the truth. Non-conspiracy leave key evidence out.

[Betty]

Response to video 2 of the Men who killed Kennedy:
First thank you to Darla who graciously suggested that I put more paragraph breaks in my responses. Someone else brought out that I needed to do that before and I had forgotten. I guess I have a bad habit.

Part 2 starts out with Steve Rivele. He did quite a bit of research. His theory relies on the grassy knoll. Steve states 3 killers were hired, I believe from the Corsican Mafia organized by Antoine Guerini. SSpartacus Education gives a little followup to what Steve discovered. (http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKrivele.htm) Spartacus Education states 2 of the men Pironti and Bocognani had alibis. Rivele also states that a CIA man involved in mind control had told him he was correct. I really wouldn't believe what a CIA man involved in mind control told me.

The grassy knoll has always been pushed forward as an alternative theory. Even for the Warren Commission they only interviewed the motorcycle cops on the left side of the presidential limo. Those on the left reported having brain matter splattered on them. One of the motorcycle cops on the right said he also had brain matter splattered on him but his testimony wasn't taken for the Warren Commission. Having the motorcyle cops on the left state they had brain matter splattered on them would support the grassy knoll theory.

There were doctors at Parkland who didn't give primary care to JFK say they saw a bullet hole on the right side of JFK's head. Jenkins said he felt a bullet hole on left temple, Specter said to him "but the autopsy did not reveal a bullet hole in the left temple". Specter did n not say to these doctors "the autopsy didn't reveal bullet hole to the right temple". (There wasn't a bullet hole to the right temple of the faux JFK.) The faux JFK didn't have chest tubes or IVs inserted.

Another writer, I believe it was Epstein, talked about how that James Jesus Angleton and Richard Helms were giving him information. From reading what he wrote it sounded that Angleton and Helms were putting him through a maze as part of a game.

[Atlas]

On December 1, 1963, when asked for a comment about the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, Malcolm X said that it was a case of "chickens coming home to roost".



in further criticism of Mr. Kennedy, the Muslim leader cited the murders of Patrice Lumumba, Congo leader, of Medgar Evers, civil rights leader, and of the Negro girls bombed earlier this year in a Birmingham church (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16th_Street_Baptist_Church_bombing).
Z6NGRmY4YXQ
The Nation of Islam, which had sent a message of condolence to the Kennedy family and ordered its ministers not to comment on the assassination, publicly censured their former shining star. Malcolm X retained his post and rank as minister, but was prohibited from public speaking for 90 days.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_X#NOI_response_to_his_remarks_on_Kennedy_assassination

[blackdog]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft3eGWZd7LE

[Betty]

Part 3 of the Men who killed Kennedy:
This part states Kennedy's body was taken by helicopter to Walter Reed. Lieutenant Bird's report talks about the helicopter. It's MD 163 from the History Matters, ARRB Master Set of Medical Exhibits.[URL="http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md163/html/md163_0001a.htm"]
Bird's report is that, "The helicopter landed at 1845 but because of the crowd the casket team had difficulty getting to the ambulance. Not arriving to the morgue until 2000."

It seems popular to think that because of these time discrepancies Kennedy had changes done to his body but this can't be the case since the body Hume's autopsied never had holes for chest tubes or IVs.

Lieutenant Bird's story is very tragic. The book, "So Proudly He Served" is the story of his life. He was one of those people you are glad are defending our country. On the day of the assassination he was assigned to be the head of the casket team. He arrived via helicopter and reported to General Godfrey McHugh. General Godfrey McHuch was in charge of Air Force 1. He states he stayed with the body from Parkland to Bethesda to the autopsy.

Neither Bird nor McHugh ever testified to the Warren Commission.

Bird's report chronicles the time the body got to the morgue, the time it left Bethesda and the time it arrived back at the White House.

There was a fiasco when the body went on board Air Force 1 at Love Field. A handle broke off the casket, they had to bust down a wall to get the casket on board.

Bird was very strong on ceremony and things going correctly. He had his men practice carrying casket with extra weights for hours. They developed a system where one man would tighten his arm muscle while the other man would allow his arm muscle to relax. The casket weighed about 900lbs. Jackie and Robert Kennedy sent him a letter thanking for his service during the funeral service.

There is a Richard Lipsey who was interviewed for the HSCA who states he stayed with the casket. I have a hard time with him because he is not listed as one of the men who Bird listed on the report. His story is different from others, also.

After the assassination Bird went into combat. He did go to Vietnam. There he had some strange things happen. One thing is that one of the other companies lobbed a mortar into their camp, which did seriously injure someone. Another is that Bird's group of men was helicoptered into some terrain. They were supposed to be brought to an area that had been cleared of enemy soldiers. Instead the helicopter brought them to an area that had heavy enemy fire. There were many casualties. Bird was hit in the head and the medic was going to leave him for dead. Bird's men refused to leave him behind and demanded that he be brought back.

Bird was near death. He did make a miraculous recovery but had severe handicaps from his head injury. Reading his story in the book, "So Proudly He Served", I couldn't put it down. Read it for 12 hours straight.

Lipsey did say Bird had made a tape recording of the events of 11/22/63. Bird also refers to his tape recordings. It would be very interesting to hear what is on those tapes.

[Betty]

Continuing with Part 3 of the Men who killed Kennedy:
Cyril Wecht is forensic pathologist. He really pushes the idea that since Humes wasn't a forensic pathologist that he missed something.

What Cyril Wecht fails to mention is what Humes actually did find.
First what I've said many times is that Humes wrote that the wounds where chest tubes and IVs would be placed were only superficial, no holes were made into the body at those spots.

Second, Humes said very clearly that there was a bullet hole 2.5cm to the right of the midline at the occipital protuberance. Humes never wavered from this position, neither did Boswell, Finck or Stringer (photographer).
Wecht never bothers to mention Finck who was a ballistic expert.

Finck was called in and arrived a little after the start of the autopsy. He saw the hole in the skull 2.5cm from midline at the occipital protuberance and noted from his expertise that this bullet came from behind. He had a diagram he had drawn up for his classes already in his possession to demonstrate the direction of the path of the bullet.

The problem was that this hole was impossible for the real JFK to have.

That's not what I'm saying this is what the Clark panel and the HSCA said.

Clark Panel The Clark Panel was called the Clark Panel because Attorney General Ramsey Clark convened it. Members included:
(1) William Carnes, professor of pathology University of Utah
(2) Russell Morgan, head of the radiology department John Hopkins
(3) Alan Moritz professor pathology Case Western Reserve University
(4) Russell Fisher famed Baltimore Medical Examiner
After looking at the x-rays and autopsy photographs they determined the bullet wound was not 2.5cm to the right of the midline at the occipital protuberance but instead was 10 centimeters higher.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dox2big.jpg

The criticisms of the autopists is unbelievable. They saw the hole. They knew what a hole was. You don't need to be a forensic pathologist to know what a hole is. if you pass kindergarten you know what a hole is.

It is clear the photos the Clark Panel saw were of a different body than what Humes, Boswell and Finck autopsied.

So, at the end of the Warren Commission the hole was to the right at the occipital protuberance. The Clark panel, based on photos that were so bad they wouldn't be admitted into a court of law, changed the hole 10 cm to the top of the head.
The House Select Committee on Assassinations agreed with the Clark Panel. They brought in a physicist Louis Alvarez and miraculously that hole at the top of the head fit into the story very nicely.

Like I said the Bethesda autopsy team never waivered that the hole 2.5 cm to the right of the midline at the occipital protuberance. Problem is nobody listened to them.

The HSCA had a meeting of just medical doctors with Humes and Boswell. This link is to the transcript and recording of this meeting. https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/HSCA_Medical_Interviews.html
Finck had his meeting a separate day. His transcript and recording is further down the page. He was adamant about the hole being at the occipital protuberance. In fact he called back for a second day to reemphasize his position.

One thing I find particularly interesting in Finck's testimony is when he looks at the autopsy photos, he's silent for awhile and then states,"How do we know these photos are of president Kennedy?"

[KiwiElf]

Thank you for the comments and kind words folks. Spent much of the weekend going back through some of these latest posted videos, comments and info (took a while!). Seems the rabbit hole is getting bigger on this one as our knowledge of these events expands. I'm more confused than ever! Glad to see we're all on the same page now and thinking like detectives. ;). I'm certainly beginning to "modify" my POV. :sherlock:

(And Sam, I may just take you up on that MJ-12 connection thread ;))

[Curious77]

That alleged X-RAY is completely UNTRUE -- Reply to Post #168

A bullet entered the president's head at the right temple --
you can see that in many of the photos though they've tried to disguise it --

AND it exited at the lower right side of the president's head which is where the brain matter was lost.

You can see validation for that fact from the YOUTUBE video by Malcolm Kilduff who was Assistant Press Secretary to Pres. Kennedy in a video report given immediately after the president's death -- in fact, he is announcing the president's death to the press assembled there at the hospital.

Kilduff indicates frontal shot to JFK's head
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V73-unR1Rq4

Frontal shot to the right temple exited from the rear, lower right side
creating a gaping wound.


and . . .

Just to confirm how desperately the press (including the BBC) wanted
to disguise and lie about this wound . . .


How the Mainstream Media LIES about the Kennedy assassination--- Part 4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O41R8lxWvP8

You can see how they eliminate the scene where Kilduff points to his right temple to make clear where the frontal wound was.

"IT'S CALLED DECEPTION BY OMISSION"

There is always a new generation of truth seekers to be fooled.

But I would also relate that these comments by Malcolm Kilduff were video taped from a few different angles in the room -- but all make it clear (or even clearer) that he is pointing to his right temple. And he pointed to that area more than once. The wound was actually at the hairline.

The shot came from the right side of the Picket fence area of the Grassy Knoll - or possibly fired from a sewer drain opening near the picket fence.


I'd also suggest that if anyone wants the truth of the series "The Men Who Killed JFK" and "The Guilty Men" that they should watch the series for themselves.
They are available on YouTube.

Haven't actually checked out this series as yet -- but will do so --
and please understand that it is still important for the power Elite to keep the cover up going. Certainly LBJ, Hoover, Alan Dulles were involved at the head of the assassination planning, including the CIA and the Joint Chiefs. JFK was working in the interests of PEACE which didn't work for those who profit from war and conquest.

PS: TRUE --- It seems that, for one, Officer Tippit was a almost a double for JFK.
But there were also claims of another individual killed in Dealey Plaza so there may have been more than one body available to confuse artists, photographers, etal.

[Atlas]

How the Zapruder film was tampered with:
2_pYvm6NaT8

[Curious77]

Reply to Post #161

That this nonsense about Greer shooting JFK is still being posted suggests how desperate they are to keep the cover up going.

And, since Greer was certainly involved in the conspiracy planning the purpose here seems to be to distract from the fact that he brought the president's limo almost to a full stop for about 10 seconds as reported by Jean Hill . . . until the president was fatally shot.
Greer looks back to make sure that has happened and then he finally begins to move the car again, rather slowly considering that he knows the president has been wounded.

[Curious77]

Reply to post #172 --

Zapruder film is a fraud -- of course -- because whatever was recorded by Zapruder was edited by the plotters.

It is believed, however, that the plotters were recording the full event from another angle from a hidden, stationary camera ... possibly to ensure that they would have scenes they could use to cover up the truth of the assassination.

[Curious77]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft3eGWZd7LE

Reply to Post #166

Gerald Ford was appointed to the Warren Commission to help the plotters -- not that many of the Commission members weren't also doing that. Others, such as Boggs and a few others were fighting for the truth.

Ford moved the back wound in JFK's right shoulder blade up considerably in order to try to make the lie of the "Magic Bullet" viable.

Ford was very much a part of the cover up of the coup on JFK and our government.

So much was known about the plotters the very evening of the assassination -- and the truth of Oswald as CIA and likely FBI, as well -- that those many who had information about the assassination were immediately getting the information out to investigators and lawyers.
About 100 lawyers in Washington, DC were dead within the following year.

Additionally, it seems true that Gerald Ford was blackmailed from early on in his Congressional career for sexual indiscretions, possibly by the set up run by Bobby Bakker and LBJ which provided a hotel room and call girls.

But, beyond that, also recall the Franklin case (YouTube) -- a pedophile ring using children who were kidnapped off the streets and also taken from the Catholic Church's BoysTown, where the investigation links to "Midnight Tours" of the Reagan/Bush White House. The youths involved also named Bush and Ford as some of their sexual abusers.

Most of us, I'm sure, would prefer to stay away from what we might consider the seamier accusations of sexual abuse. But it should be understood that our very own CIA in it's MKULTRA program was using sexual abuse -- which was actually sexual torture -- as a means of Mind Control. The children (as young as 10 years of age and sometimes younger, and mainly boys though some girls were used) were being used as drug runners, as homosexual prostitutes, and for espionage.
As in the case of Paul Bonacci (YouTube) he was used to help kidnap Johnny Gosch.
Noreeen Gosch's story is exceptionally interesting as she discovers that the police in her area were told to "stand down" at the time of the kidnapping of her son.
And much later, she discovers that her own husband was involved in setting up her son and the connection to CIA kidnappings of children for Project Monarch. We all have the responsibility to begin to deal with this information . . . no matter how unpleasant.

CIA-MKULTRA-Project Monarch Project MKULTRA

Declassified MKUltra documents —sometimes referred to as the CIA's mind control program—was the code name given to an illegal program of experiments on human subjects, designed and undertaken by the United States Central Intelligence Agency (CIA).[1] Experiments on humans were intended to identify and develop drugs and procedures to be used in interrogations and torture, in order to weaken the individual to force confessions through mind control. Organized through the Scientific Intelligence Division of the CIA, the project coordinated with the Special Operations Division of the U.S. Army's Chemical Corps.[2]

The program began in the early 1950s, was officially sanctioned in 1953, was reduced in scope in 1964, further curtailed in 1967 and officially halted in 1973.[3] The program engaged in many illegal activities,[4][5][6] including the use of unwitting U.S. and Canadian citizens as its test subjects, which led to controversy regarding its legitimacy.[4](p74)[7][8][9] MKUltra used numerous methodologies to manipulate people's mental states and alter brain functions, including the surreptitious administration of drugs (especially LSD) and other chemicals, hypnosis,[10] sensory deprivation, isolation, verbal and sexual abuse, as well as various forms of torture.[not verified in body]

The scope of Project MKUltra was broad, with research undertaken at 80 institutions, including 44 colleges and universities, as well as hospitals, prisons, and pharmaceutical companies.[11] The CIA operated through these institutions using front organizations, although sometimes top officials at these institutions were aware of the CIA's involvement.[12] As the US Supreme Court later noted, MKULTRA was:


concerned with "the research and development of chemical, biological, and radiological materials capable of employment in clandestine operations to control human behavior." The program consisted of some 149 subprojects which the Agency contracted out to various universities, research foundations, and similar institutions. At least 80 institutions and 185 private researchers participated. Because the Agency funded MKUltra indirectly, many of the participating individuals were unaware that they were dealing with the Agency.[13]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra

In '75, the Church Committee brought the project to light. By then, Richard Helms/CIA Director had already (in 1973) ordered destruction of the files.
Church Committee and other investigations relied on the sworn testimony of direct participants and on the relatively small number of documents that survived Helms' destruction order.[14] However, in '77, a FOIA request uncovered another 20,000 documents relating to MKULTRA and there were more Senate hearings later in '77. Other surviving info was also declassified in 2001 on MKULTRA.

[Curious77]

Reply to Post #165

What MalcolmX was actually criticizing here were CIA programs and coups being carried out internationally against democratically elected LIBERAL leaders.

Many of these programs were being carried out by the CIA without JFK's consent or knowledge -- such as the murder of the Deim Brothers in Vietnam. JFK was not the first president to be betrayed by the CIA. Truman had signed off on the creation of the CIA, but later makes clear that they have exceeded his intentions. IKE is also betrayed with the U-2 incident which destroys the Paris Peace talks at that time. IKE had instructed that NO U-2 flights were to be approved for months before the Peace talks. Nonetheless, the Powers' fight was sent up -- and as Gary Powers makes clear, many documents which were NOT supposed to be in the plane as ID were present.

That is what MalcolmX was saying -- that these programs are eventually brought home to the US. And they were.
See: Operation Mockingbird (scroll down to "History"), Operation Paperclip (more like 200,000 Nazis brought in to US; used to found our CIA, funneled into the FBI and other government agencies -- thus, the Cold War.) Operation Gladio where the US actually resurrected the Mafia in Italy in order to ensure that only right wing leaders would be permitted to rise to power there.

Keep in mind that Operation Mockingbird -- an attack on our free press -- was being written TWO YEARS BEFORE THE END OF WWII.

Also at that time, Nazi military leaders were visiting our Pentagon.

[Curious77]

Betty -- I'm sure you are making a valiant effort at reporting -- but from what I'm reading I would strongly recommend that anyone who wants to know what "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" and "The Guilty Men" programs are actually reporting should view the documentary themselves on YouTube.

Often now there is "closed caption" for those who need it -- but everyone should be careful about it because often the individual doing the typing is unfamiliar with the subject and information is misleading. WATCH AND LISTEN TO IT YOURSELF IF YOU WANT THE TRUTH.

[Curious77]

It wasn't so much a "prediction" as personal knowledge that the assassination would take place.

She was thrown out of a car because she had been protesting the activities of those she had been with in connection to the assassination attempt about to take place.

[Curious77]

Strongest and most reliable witness overall -- who was steadfast despite many threats to her life -- was JEAN HILL.

And she immediately made clear that the limo was severely slowed down after the first shots and then brought to a stop by GREER . . . .
until after he was sure that JFK had been fatally wounded.

Many other witnesses confirmed that information.

In the book CROSSFIRE by Jim Marrs, he reports the interview of Hill by Arlen Specter who was working for the Warren Commission at the time. Later, he is SENATOR Arlen Specter. Interview was done in Texas because she was warned not to go to Washington, DC.

At any rate, you see the threats to her trying to force her to change her story. She never does.

Specter also let's her know that they have made Marguerite Oswald look crazy and they could do the same thing to her -- or even have her put into a mental institution -- if she doesn't cooperate.

Marguerite Oswald was Lee Harvey Oswald's mother -- and she quickly tried to let us know that he was CIA.

In fact, journalists immediately began asking for Oswald's employment records -- IRS returns -- W-2 forms -- they were denied to journalists and others.

HOWEVER, the panel headed up by John Tunheim for the JFK 1992 Classified Records Act did get to see those records -- and they reported their UNANIMOUS CONCLUSION that . . .

"OSWALD WAS EMPLOYED BY THE CIA WORKING ON HIGH LEVEL ASSIGNMENTS
AND PROBABLY ALSO FOR THE FBI."

At the time Tunheim reported that to a hearing by a number of Congressional members (not the full Congress) the attempt to impeach Pres. Clinton for lying about a personal affair with Lewinsky was underway.

Later, on the History/Discovery Channel just before 2000, Tunheim reported that condlusion in a documentary run by them over a few months in the Spring. As he repeated their conclusion TWICE, the words/text appeared below his face.

Later -- that documentary was pulled upon actions of Jimmy Carter, Jerry Ford who alerted the LBJ family.
The documentary allegedly destroyed.


PS: The use of the religious material is rather sick -- but I would remind readers that SATAN is what keeps organized patriarchal religions in power. There is no hell, there is no Satan. But there are those (like the NWO believers) who will use Satanic rituals and fearsome stories to frighten the children they are sexually abusing.
See: CIA's MKULTRA/Project Monarch

[Curious77]

For some, it was put forward as a TRAINING PROGRAM -- !!
Sound familiar?

Much of it was compartmentalized from the top down --
later those who hadn't really known what it was actually about fell into line.

Some of the officials in Dallas were also blackmailed to go along -- some had already been corrupt.

See: LBJ: Mastermind of the JFK Assassination -- by Phillip Nelson


Also keep in mind that Allen Dulles -- pretty much from the time that he was fired by JFK over the Bay of Pigs -- was working to get revenge.
And from that time until the assassination, Dulles was drawing close to himself those who were involved in intelligence/CIA, MIC and other government officials who would be likely to assist in an assassination. The meetings were being held regularly in Dulles' home.

H. L. Hunt (Texas Oil) was definitely involved as well in running planning sessions with LBJ and many others in Texas where they were doing the same thing Dulles was doing --- drawing in people who hated JFK and who would just as happily see him dead. H. L. Hunt had a place where the plotters met which LBJ's mistress (Madelaine Brown) identifies in her reports on the assassination. (YouTube)

The morning before the assassination, there was a large picture of LBJ visiting at Allen Dulles' home.

There's a book from last year which is also important on revealing the truth of Allen Dulles.

The Devil's Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America's Secret Government
https://www.amazon.com/Devils-Chessboard-Dulles-Americas-Government/dp/0062276166

[TargeT]

How the Zapruder film was tampered with:
2_pYvm6NaT8

great film... I always thought the front of his head had too much damage shown vs the back.. proven alteration.

[Curious77]

GREER was very definitely part of the planning for the assassination -- but he certainly didn't shoot at JFK -- that's a lie.

GREER's job was to slow down the limo in case JFK hadn't been fatally hit. Keep in mind that they had had to cancel previous plans to pull off the assassination -- first, in Chicago -- and later in Miami -- because Oswald had alerted Secret Service in about Chicago . . . and then another informer (Sullivan) had recorded a RW extremist (Milteer) relating the plot which was to happen in Miami.

Dallas was their third choice -- but their LAST chance.

So GREER had to make sure that JFK was dead -- that was what he was doing in turning around to make sure -- keeping the car barely moving and then bringing it to a STOP until he was sure JFK was mortally wounded.

¤=[Post Update]=¤

True -- we see so often that original testimony is altered -- that's the sign of a cover up.

[blackdog]

I just watched this video from Doug Horne who was a member of the Assassination Records Review Board.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svDEw3Jgkw8

I dont expect anyone to watch it because it is pretty long, so I'll sum up a few of his points.

-Five shots hit Kennedy. Three in the head. One in the top right forehead, which exited back, lower left. One in the middle back of the skull that did not exit. One behind the right ear that caused a tangential wound, meaning the entrance and exit wounds united, taking off the lower back right portion of Kennedy's skull. The other two shots hit Kennedy in the back and in the front of the neck.

-The doctors at Parkland in Dallas mainly saw the right rear exit wound. They saw no wound on the right side of the head because, allegedly, there was no wound there.

-The Zapruder film was altered. The right side, explosive wound was drawn onto the film. Other frames were removed to eliminate, in part, the direction of the exiting skull and brain material. The missing frames create an exaggerated back-and-to-the-left motion. This may not have been the result they intended, but they were in a hurry and limited to the technology of the time.

-The shots that hit the right rear of the skull and the forehead probably came from two different shooters along the fence, although he didnt seem totally sure of this and didnt present much evidence on this topic.

-Surgery was performed on JFK at Bethesda to alter the wounds before the official autopsy.


These are his opinions after three decades of research, including his work with the ARRB. I thought there were some inconsistencies, but he didnt cover everything, so who knows. I also thought some witnesses described seeing the explosive wound on the right side, including Zapruder. Horne says the doctors at Parkland must have missed the entrance wound at the top right of the forehead and the exit wound at the back, lower left. That seemed unlikely....to me.


Regarding the question of 'why', Horne argues that it was Kennedy's desire for peace that led to his assassination, especially his reluctance to invade Cuba and his desire to work with the Russians.

[Curious77]

What else would this be?

Oswald was CIA as reported/confirmed by the John Tunheim Panel -- reviewing the 1992 JFK Classified Records.

Set up for some as a "Training Mission" -- sound familiar? Only those at the top of the plot knew what the actual purpose of the training mission was. Others, as expected, fell in line.

For a long list of the conspirators -- who met the evening before the assassination at Clinton Murchinson's home in Texas, see Madelaine Brown/YouTube --

but they included LBJ, Hoover, McCloy, Nixon, John Connolly, Murchinson, Syd Richardson, Brown Bros., Brown Brothers.
George W. Owens. Joe Campisi, Malcolm Wallace, John Currington, Cliff Carter, Amin G. Carter, Jack Ruby, Carlos Marcellos, Joe Sivillo
Larry Campbell, Larry Curtis, Currington, Earl Cabell - Mayor Dallas, Bill Decker -- Sheriff of Dallas, Ted Thornton, W. O. Bankston, Clint Peoples

Of course, many more -- such as GHW Bush, Dulles -- and others I couldn't catch the names of.

Madelaine Brown also relates that in 1960 . . .

According to Madelaine Brown . . .

Joe Kennedy -- JFK's father and H. L. Hunt -- 3 days prior to election -- "cut a deal"
H. L. Hunt agreed that Lyndon would go as VP
"H. L. Hunt and LBJ really controlled what happened to JFK -- After election -- immediately went to plan to get rid of JFK."
"Planning went on about two years prior to assassination of JFK" -- Place for meetings, north of Dallas, secluded."

PS: For those who aren't familiar with the name "Malcolm Wallace," he was pretty much LBJ's private killer -- and was believed to have been on the sixth floor of the TSBD.
Coincidentally, there was a set of fingerprints which remained unidentified on the cardboard boxes and it seems to match Malcolm Wallace's prints on record.

Earl Cabell's brother, Charles Cabell, was longest serving Deputy Director of the CIA, under Director Allen Dulles.
Both Cabell and Dulles were fired by JFK after the Bay of Pigs.

Brown Bros. -- later Brown & Root which is fed highly profitable contracts in Vietnam by LBJ -- eventually Kellogg, Brown & Root and a "unit" of Halliburton.

On the way out of the Meeting that night, LBJ grabs Madelaine Brown by the arm and whispers in her ear that . . . "he won't be bothered by the Kennedy's after tomorrow -- that's not a threat, that's a promise."

[blackdog]

-The doctors at Parkland in Dallas mainly saw the right rear exit wound. They saw no wound on the right side of the head because, allegedly, there was no wound there.

This is Abraham Zapruder on television about an hour and a half after the assassination:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLqOGEBcjnI

http://i.imgur.com/cApOPvu.png He describes almost exactly what we see in the Zapruder film, saying the side of his head opened up and pointing to right side like we see in his film.

You can argue that Zapruder was in on it, but it seems to me this is before those orchestrating the event would have known exactly what they were dealing with and how they were going to alter the film.

I dont get it. How does Doug Horne deal with this issue?

They show the ambulance leaving Parkland, so it would have been about 2 pm.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_John_F._Kennedy_assassination :




"A few minutes after 2:00 p.m. CST, President Kennedy's body was removed from Parkland Hospital and driven straight to Air Force One."

[enigma3]

Curious, you have way too many people at Clint Murchison's home for the big meetup the night before. The makers of "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" has it right. They tracked down the servers who worked the gathering and interviewed them to determine who was present that night. Only the main actors were present.

Again, the ONLY fingerprint found on the 6th floor of the TSBD after the shooting was a pinky print belonging to Mac Wallace. One print on a cardboard box.

Here is a short version of what I can verify with actual evidence. I will provide references later as I reconstruct them. Losing your hard drive is a massive bummer. There is one film which I haven't found yet. This is mentioned later on.

JFK was hit by three bullets, Connally with one, and one hit a curb displacing a piece of granite that ricocheted up and hit the chin of a witness, drawing blood. Another probably hit the upper right inside of the windshield trim and ricocheted somewhere up front. Pictures of the inside of the limo taken afterward show a considerable dent in the chrome frame moulding. That's 6 out of 7 bullets accounted for. They also set up a classic triangulation shooting pattern. One at the Grassy Knoll, one under the triple overpass and one behind the limo in the building directly across the street and to the right of the School Book Depository. Oh yeah, and Mac Wallace with a Mauser, or Mannlicher Carcano with a junk scope, on the 6th floor.

The Sequence

Bullet number one came from another expert marksman stationed under the triple overpass. The cars were going downhill to get under the bridge. The shot went through the windshield striking JFK in the center of his thorax and passing out his upper right shoulder. It is a small miracle no one else got hit. The backstory is that the Secret Service ordered 4 or 5 (can't remember the exact number) identical windshields weeks before the assassination. And, a woman named Evalea Glades (who was a gun nut all her life and later became head of surgery at a Dallas hospital - excellent cred there) and 3 others, saw the hole in the windshield at Parkland. She always described it as a "through and through hole from front to back". Obviously it was a high speed bullet. Kennedy's fatal flaw was a very bad back. In almost constant pain, he that day wore a full length back brace under his suit. It made it impossible for him to bend his back. So bullet number one did exactly what they wanted to do. Kennedy froze after that shot, and was not able to talk. He slowly bent forward in the seat but acted like a paralyzed sitting duck. If we trace the thorax entry wound through the hole in the windshield (just upper left of the rear view mirror) we will end up under the triple overpass.

The single bullet theory conclusively breaks down when we look at Connally. He turned around after the first shot (probably Jackie making a lot of noise) to see what was going on. After some frames he begins to turn back and is hit. He visibly winces as he is struck. Way too much time between the first shot and Connally being shot to be a single bullet. The trajectory of the Connally shot is high up on his body to his leg. That high of a trajectory points to the 6th floor.

Now we get to bullets number 2 and 3 to hit JFK. Bullet #2, as can be seen in a zoomed in film on JFK's head and shoulders, strikes him towards the back of the right side of his head close to the edge of his skull. Frames 313, 314 and 315 show the bullet path. Back to front going towards the outside of his skull. THe brain matter falls out back to front with the exit wound around his right temple area. Another high speed bullet with a low trajectory angle. Hmmm. Where from? Well, the building just across the street from the School Book Depository to the right is an office building. The CIA rented an office on the second floor. The window in the closet which looked out onto the street was open.

Bullet number 3 hit him almost immediately after bullet #2 struck. One on top of the other, as evidenced by the Dallas PD dictaphone recording. It came from the grassy knoll, hit JFK in his occipital region, and splattered at least one motorcycle officer so badly that he filled out a report on his experience. Both he and his motorcycle were splattered. The pink spray which was edited out of the Zapruder film. They also blacked out the lower rear occipital region of JFK's head. In the zoomed version it clearly shows how violently JFK's body was thrown up and to the left. An interesting point I saw was JFK's arms going limp when the second bullet hit him. Bullet number 3 was an exploding bullet. The only one used that day. Note the angle allowed a hit on JFK but not Jackie. Another interesting tidbit I saw was that if bullet number 2 did not hit him, bullet number 3 would have hit him in the middle of his skull and done jinormous damage. Bullet number 2 moved his head forward just enough so that #3 hit him in the rear of the head. The Frenchman on the knoll had already committed to the shot so it played out the way it did. Interestingly, the triangulation setup meant that no one else in the car would be hit. Not anyone on the left and no one in the front seat. The Connally hit, if it came from the 6th floor, appears to be blind luck. Every shooters angle and bullet path was designed to pass out of the car.

We know without doubt the Secret Service, CIA and FBI were involved. One of the most interesting pieces of film we have from that day shows the head of the Secret Service detail in the convertible following the Presidential limo stand up and call off the two agents assigned to the rear of the limo. The motorcade consisted of 1-Dallas PD, 2-Presidential limo, 3-Secret Service car, 4-press and others. So a member of the media corps in the convertible following the Secret Service car filmed this incident one block before the fateful turn. A clear violation of Secret Service rules even then. The man on the right gets off and puts his hands in the air as if to say - what are you asking me to do? This is not kosher. So the Presidential limo is now unprotected. The driver did slow the limo almost to a complete stop. Another clear violation of their own rules. But it meant that no Secret Service agent would be in the line of fire. And the car would be crawling in the killing zone. The FBI was involved because J Edgar Hoover was at the gathering the night before at Clint Murchison's home.

There is one photo of JFK taken at Parkland after he died. It shows the back of his head in the occipital region gone. Some of his skin with hair attached dangles from the back of his head. In place of the missing area there is a stainless steel support holding his head in place. There is also a poster showing all the 18 or so doctors who examined him at Dallas. Every doctor, when asked to describe his head wounds, put his open hand to the back of his head and said occipital region.

"The Men Who Killed Kennedy" says that only the top people, the deciders, were at Murchinson's home. And LBJ was a central conspirator. Within a week Bobby Kennedy's office of Attorney General would indict Billy Sol Estes and others for nefarious dealings in Texas if JFK had lived. That would have sent LBJ to jail. The CIA wanted him dead after the disasterous Bay of Pigs op and JFK saying he would chop the CIA into a thousand pieces. He had no love for Allen Dulles or J Edgar Hoover.

That is how he died. It tells me this. It was a conspiracy with several governmental agencies involved and more private people behind the scenes. Many had a motive for the assassination. Since that time it is clear to me that a shadow government runs this country. It is the way it is.

[enigma3]

If I may, I collect quotes from famous people on what's really going on. There are quotes back to Washington, Jackson and many other presidents that refer to men behind the scenes who really run things. They have always been men of money. The finest quote on anything I ever heard is "FOLLOW THE MONEY". Wilson soon regretted the formation of the Federal Reserve central bank. Eisenhower reminds us to guard against the power of the "military industrial complex". JFK issued an executive order in June of 1963 that put the USA on a course to print our own money. The full story of Pearl Harbor is fascinating. It leads into a discussion of false flags. A country knowing with certainty that a catastrophic event is about to befall said country but let it happen anyways to change the course of history and draw that country into war. As for JFK - he had bummer karma.

[enigma3]

One more. It is interesting that the Feds altered the Zapruder film the way they did. They didn't have the tools we have today, so their ability to alter it was, by todays standards, minimal. I haven't looked yet, but the search leads me to look for stills of frames 313 - 315. Zoomed in to JFK's head and shoulders.
H L Hunt and Murchison were involved because they knew of the investigation of Billy Sol Estes and the damage that would do to their reputations and the way business was (and is) done in Texas. It is fascinating to me to see this meeting at Murchison's to get a glimpse of how the shadow government worked then. They are much quieter now.

[blackdog]

-The doctors at Parkland in Dallas mainly saw the right rear exit wound. They saw no wound on the right side of the head because, allegedly, there was no wound there.

From Six Seconds in Dallas (1967) by Josiah Thompson:




"Marilyn Sitzman was only some 75 feet away looking down into the car when the President's head exploded. Miss Sitzman: And the next thing that I remembered clearly was the shot that hit directly in front of us, or almost directly in front of us, that hit him on the side of his face.

Thompson: Where on the side of the head did that shot appear to hit?
Miss Sitzman: I would say it'd be above the ear and to the front.
Thompson: In other words, if one drew a line vertically upward from the tip of the ear, it would be forward of that line?
Miss Sitzman: Yes.
Thompson: It would then be back of the temple, but on the side of the head?
Miss Sitzman: Between the eye and the ear. And we could see his brains come out, you know, his head opening; it must have been a terrible shot because it exploded his head more or less (Taped interview, Nov. 29, 1966)." - p. 102.

"William and Gayle Newman saw the President hit in the side of the head (above) and, believing the last shot to have come from directly behind them, they threw themselves on the ground..." - p. 103.

"S. M. Holland, we recall, saw the President's body as it passed under his vantage point on the overpass. And we recall too his statement that the "whole right side" of the President's head "including part of his face" had been blown off. Hurchel Jacks, driver of the Vice-Presidential car, saw the President's body at Parkland Hospital. "Before the President's body was covered," Jacks related in a statement filed November 28, "it appeared that the bullet had struck him above the right ear or near the temple" (18H801). Seth Kantor, a Scripps-Howard reporter, jotted down in his notebook at Parkland Hospital the phrase "intered [sic] right temple" (20H353), apparently in reference to the President's wounds." - p. 103.


William and Gayle Newman were standing almost directly to JFK's right, and they heard the shots coming from behind them.

It is my understanding that these people would not have seen the Zapruder film. I dont think the public saw it until 1975. They are describing a wound on the right side of his head, just like we see in the film. How does someone who has studied the case for decades ignore this?

[TargeT]

It is my understanding that these people would not have seen the Zapruder film. I dont think the public saw it until 1975. They are describing a wound on the right side of his head, just like we see in the film. How does someone who has studied the case for decades ignore this?


a shot from the front passenger side of the car would have hit him on the right side of his head as he was leaning forward with his head slightly turned to the left after being shot in the throat earlier.

[blackdog]

a shot from the front passenger side of the car would have hit him on the right side of his head as he was leaning forward with his head slightly turned to the left after being shot in the throat earlier.

It could have, if he was turning to the left a little, and it looks like he is. If it came from the front, it could have entered at almost a tangential angle, causing the entrance wound to be explosive. It could have then exited at the right rear. Maybe they edited that exit out and left the right entrance wound? And then they tried to describe the side wound as one of exit from an Oswald shot?

I dont get it though. Horne says the right wound (the famous wound) is fake. He says the doctors at Parkland didnt see it because it wasnt there, but the people in Dealey Plaza that day saw it.

Someone must have shot him from the front to cause the throat wound. Yet, he was even farther down the street at that point, and it would be even less likely to have come from the North side storm drain. Maybe there's someone farther down the fence or somewhere else?

[TargeT]

a shot from the front passenger side of the car would have hit him on the right side of his head as he was leaning forward with his head slightly turned to the left after being shot in the throat earlier.

It could have, if he was turning to the left a little, and it looks like he is. If it came from the front, it could have entered at almost a tangential angle, causing the entrance wound to be explosive. It could have then exited at the right rear. Maybe they edited that exit out and left the right entrance wound? And then they tried to describe the side wound as one of exit from an Oswald shot?

The video in this post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?92641-JFK-the-Assassination-of-John-Kennedy&p=1095934&viewfull=1#post1095934) (a very well done video) describes exactly that.. the back of his head has a "black out" on it and they emphasized the front right wound... but in the end they decided it was a crap editing job and shelved it all... for ever... it leaked out in the 70's by accident....


I dont get it though. Horne says the right wound (the famous wound) is fake. He says the doctors at Parkland didnt see it because it wasnt there, but the people in Dealey Plaza that day saw it.

Someone must have shot him from the front to cause the throat wound. Yet, he was even farther down the street at that point, and it would be even less likely to have come from the North side storm drain. Maybe there's someone farther down the fence or somewhere else?

Storm drain wouldn't have had a shot until right before the final shot on the X.. if there was a shooter there it was "one shot" taken IMO.... I suppose it's also possible that he was struck by multiple shots at the same time during the "stop on the X" by the limo driver... that would make sense as that was the last opertunity... why just have one shooter? (and a head shot was clearly the desired outcome).

There is some talk about bodies being switched,, I have no clue about that stuff.... I'm just basing everything off his body movement in the car & the surrounding geography.. the body movement was impossible to fake with 1963 film editing tech....

[Atlas]

There is some talk about bodies being switched,, I have no clue about that stuff....
It's from a 1980 video: JFK Brain Missing - Body of JFK stolen and altered - JFK Autopsy
ipyJzJvJ1sg

[blackdog]

The video in this post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?92641-JFK-the-Assassination-of-John-Kennedy&p=1095934&viewfull=1#post1095934) (a very well done video) describes exactly that.. the back of his head has a "black out" on it and they emphasized the front right wound... but in the end they decided it was a crap editing job and shelved it all... for ever... it leaked out in the 70's by accident....

That is the same guy, Doug Horne, from the six and a half hour presentation I posted. He concludes that the side wound is fake, that it was draw onto the Zapruder film. He says the Parkland doctors didnt see a wound on the right. They only saw one on the lower, right rear of the head. I described it all above.

I've posted a few examples of witnesses saying they saw the side wound in person. That would contradict what Horne is saying.


There is some talk about bodies being switched,, I have no clue about that stuff.... I'm just basing everything off his body movement in the car & the surrounding geography.. the body movement was impossible to fake with 1963 film editing tech....

In the video you just referenced, he says the body movement is altered. He also says the famous head wound is fake. If the video is altered, then you cant make any conclusions based on it.

I have posted the examples of witnesses to the head wound to show that Horne's conclusions are questionable.

If it is true that the doctors at Parkland didnt see a wound on the right side of the head, then what is going on? Two of the people in the quotes I posted said they saw the body at the hospital and the wound was by the right temple.

[TargeT]

The video in this post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?92641-JFK-the-Assassination-of-John-Kennedy&p=1095934&viewfull=1#post1095934) (a very well done video) describes exactly that.. the back of his head has a "black out" on it and they emphasized the front right wound... but in the end they decided it was a crap editing job and shelved it all... for ever... it leaked out in the 70's by accident....

That is the same guy, Doug Horne, from the six and a half hour presentation I posted. He concludes that the side wound is fake, that it was draw onto the Zapruder film. He says the Parkland doctors didnt see a wound on the right. They only saw one on the lower, right rear of the head. I described it all above.

I've posted a few examples of witnesses saying they saw the side wound in person. That would contradict what Horne is saying.


There is some talk about bodies being switched,, I have no clue about that stuff.... I'm just basing everything off his body movement in the car & the surrounding geography.. the body movement was impossible to fake with 1963 film editing tech....

In the video I referenced, he says the body movement is altered. I thought that the frames removed from the final shot sequence (they certainly were)would make his body seem to move faster, but still the general transfer of energy is displayed with a few frames cut from the middle of movement... I sort of ignored the rest of what horne said there, it didn't make sense.



I have posted the examples of witnesses to the head wound to show that Horne's conclusions are questionable.

If it is true that the doctors at Parkland didnt see a wound on the right side of the head, then what is going on? Two of the people in the quotes I posted said they saw the body at the hospital and the wound was by the right temple.

I only agree with parts of what Horne spoke of, there's very little out there that I "swallow whole"; the video was edited, the "wound spray" was much greater, only 1 frame is present now when there were reportedly much more on the original & the exit would on the back of the head was obscured.. that was my main take away.

Other than that Horne's theories don't interest me much, they don't make sense.

[Atlas]

dXRG7yiqR3I
https://goodmenproject.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/GMPQ-JFK.jpg

[Spellbound]

There is some talk about bodies being switched,, I have no clue about that stuff....
It's from a 1980 video: JFK Brain Missing - Body of JFK stolen and altered - JFK Autopsy
ipyJzJvJ1sg

A video was posted earlier in this thread saying Tippit was killed by Liddy for the purpose of switching his body with JFK's....saying Tippit was a look alike for JFK. I'll be honest, the Tippit murder has always bothered me (who...and why??).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRwe-XPpmwI

Dave - Toronto

[Spellbound]

I'm watching this documentary right now....presenting various different theories.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-Z_Bm-93VY

Dave - Toronto

[Spellbound]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm2oDaQ2-NI

Dave - Toronto

[Smell the Roses]

enigma, when I happened to see The Men Who Killed Kennedy on the History Channel in the early 2000's, I was very surprised the truth was coming out on a national platform, but thought it represented finally an intelligent acknowledgement of the obvious. Then I happened to watch The Kennedys miniseries on the Reelz channel in 2011 and was naively dumbfounded that they were going back to the ridiculous Oswald lie. That miniseries shocked me out of a bit of complacency I had gotten into. I didn't realize how willingly blind the culture had become.

If anyone you meet thinks the book depository nonsense is true, I would just ask them to explain the multiple documented witnesses who noted that the hole in the windshield indicated the bullet came from the opposite direction. This includes an auto company worker who actually replaced the windshield. The repaired car is now in the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, Michigan. There are thousands of proofs and logical inconsistencies. The windshield is an easy one for starters.

[Spellbound]

enigma, when I happened to see The Men Who Killed Kennedy on the History Channel in the early 2000's, I was very surprised the truth was coming out on a national platform, but thought it represented finally an intelligent acknowledgement of the obvious. Then I happened to watch The Kennedys miniseries on the Reelz channel in 2011 and was naively dumbfounded that they were going back to the ridiculous Oswald lie. That miniseries shocked me out of a bit of complacency I had gotten into. I didn't realize how willingly blind the culture had become.

If anyone you meet thinks the book depository nonsense is true, I would just ask them to explain the multiple documented witnesses who noted that the hole in the windshield indicated the bullet came from the opposite direction. This includes an auto company worker who actually replaced the windshield. The repaired car is now in the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, Michigan. There are thousands of proofs and logical inconsistencies. The windshield is an easy one for starters.

Unfortunately, there are many people out there who still believe the official story and the Warren Report. God forbid their gov't would lie to them. These people are still asleep.

Dave - Toronto

[Cidersomerset]

This may well of already been posted earlier ?

For ref : I was just listening to a ion & Bob podcast about the
Mississippi River below , the conversation develops into JFK
and Bob who was an UK & US intelligence officer for decades
and was involved in the media clear up after the assassination
says Mae Brussell thought the report by William Torbitt is
the closest.

Mississippi River | Riparian Rights | The Treaty of 1783 | TVA

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-56OLE68WptY/WCPRR12DmCI/AAAAAAAASe4/l-Kybz4YZlYiOPlTY2XRLfN104cfhiTpgCLcB/s1600/1.jpg

Payday
5 November 2016
https://ionandbob.blogspot.co.uk/

The Treaty of Paris of 1783 ended the war of independence and granted
the thirteen colonies political freedom.

Treaty of Paris 1783
ARTICLE 8
The navigation of the river Mississippi, from its source to the ocean, shall
forever remain free and open to the subjects of Great Britain and the citizens
of the United States.

Nomenclature of an Assassination Cabal by William Torbitt

https://ionandbob.blogspot.co.uk/2009/12/nomenclature-of-assassination-cabal-by.html

============================================
============================================

Nomenclature of an Assassination Cabal by William Torbitt


The killing of President Kennedy was planned and supervised by Division Five
of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, a relatively small department within the FBI
whose usual duties are espionage and counter-espionage activities.

Actually, Division Five acted dually with the Defense Intelligence Agency which was acting
on behalf of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in the Pentagon. Directly under the two-pronged
leadership of Division Five and the DIA was the Control Group, their highly secret policy
agency - the Defense Industrial Security Command.

https://ionandbob.blogspot.co.uk/2009/12/nomenclature-of-assassination-cabal-by.html

[Cidersomerset]

This is now an historical archive......I was not planning on listening to these ...lol

Mae Brussell -Munich,Germany connections to JFK assassination- (8-18-71)

tt8kagTGvLo

Originally broadcast August 18,1971.

– Mae talks about the positive response the show is receiving, her background, and how
the Government is dismissing assassination researchers.

– Mae takes on Jack Anderson’s article, “Assassination Balderdash” (1971-07-21), which
dismissed criticism by Don Riley of the Warren Report. She challenges him to meet with
her and disprove her research into the JFK assassination.

– Mae then gives a brief outline of who she thinks played a role in the JFK conspiracy and
names the following individuals and groups involved and how they connect to one another:
J. Edgar Hoover, Allen Dulles, Richard Helms, the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), Texas
Oilmen, Lee and Marina Oswald, General Edwin Walker, Bernard Weissman, and the “Munich Gang.”

– Mae breaks apart the “Munich Gang” and relates how Bernard Weissman, who put out the
famous “Welcome Mister Kennedy to Dallas” newspaper ad on Nov. 22, 1963, along with Larry
Schmidt, William Burly and others all served together as Military Counter-Intelligence Analysts
in Munich, Germany, in 1962. Mae shows how Weissman committed perjury during the Warren
Commission hearings in regards to his associations to a Ken Glazebrook.

– Mae talks about the “Wanted For Treason” handbill that was circulated all over Dallas a few
days before the assassination of JFK. How the Johnson Printing Co. who printed the handbill
connected to General Edwin Walker. How an employee of General Walker, Howard Duff, saw
Jack Ruby at Walker’s home on two occasions, but never testified to the Warren Commission.

– Speaking of testimony, Mae talks about how commission members Gerald Ford and Earl Warren
left the room when Weissman testified about a plot to overthrow the US Government by 1969.
How the person who printed the “Wanted for Treason” handbill who was partners with General
Walker was the only person to use the 5th Amendment in their Warren Commission testimony.

-There is a mention of researcher Joachim Joesten.

– Mae talks about an interview on the BBC program 24 Hours with L. Fletcher Prouty on the topic
of the Pentagon Papers, where Prouty suggested that the CIA was involved in the JFK assassination.

– Mae gives a quick background on John N. Mitchell, his links to Richard Nixon, and reads from
“Forgive My Grief Vol. 3″ regarding Nixon being in Dallas around the time of JFK’s assassination.

Dialogue: Assassination #8 (1971-08-18) Show Notes...
https://fileandclaw322.wordpress.com/...

http://www.maebrussell.com/

==============================================
==============================================

Mae Brussell: Pentagon's destruction of JFK Assassination Evidence (12-11-1977)

rD0eow8YW18

Originally broadcast December 11, 1977.
Murder of Donald Donaldson, J.F. Kennedy Witness. Six FBI Agents killed.
Pentagon destruction of J.F. Kennedy Assassination.

==============================================
==============================================

Mae Brussell -Nazi Connections to JFK Assassination- November 22, 1981

flCVDAXse7U
Broadcast 11-22-1981.
18th ANNIVERSARY OF JFK ASSASSINATION. OTTO ALBRECHT ALFRED von
BOLSCHWING: MOST IMPORTANT NAZI in USA. Adolf Eichmann's advisor,
superior, from Hitler's Gestapo with Himmler, to OSS to CIA. The Gehlen
man behind Nixon, Reagan, assassination teams.

=============================================
=============================================

Mae Brussell -22nd Anniversary of JFK ASSASSINATION- (11-18-85)

QIefgnr_-Fg

Originally broadcast November 18, 1985.

TWENTY-TWO YEARS SINCE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT J. F. KENNEDY.
NASA - NAZIS, involvment. Werner Von Braun, Walter Dohrnberger. 22 years
later. STAR WARS TOP BILLING OF SUMMIT. Noam Chomsky, WILLIAM YANDELL
ELIOT, VIETNAM, leaves out Kissinger. WILLIAM BUCKLEY, GEORGE ROCKWELL,
JOHN BIRCH ASSASSINATION TEAM. National Review anniversary,
GERMAN NAZI CONNECTIONS.

==============================================
==============================================

[gord]

Anything from Mae Brussell is worth your time.

[Spellbound]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSXQYvm57YM

Dave - Toronto

[Spellbound]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMHb_RbAQu4

[Flowerpunkchip]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMHb_RbAQu4

wow! Thanks for posting Spellbound

some important info in there which I had either forgotten or didn't know.
And very happy that Kay Griggs was in the documentary.
But I can't agree that all terrorism acts are all manufactured/fake.

Do watch it, it's only 3 hours and 24 minutes long but it's better than any episodes of the Kardashians.
Post this on the facebook page of your most sceptical friend :idea:

[Atlas]

[...] Carlos Marcello [...]
Carlos Marcello, the Man Behind the JFK Assassination:
D9bQinq6-Bo
hfWGWcR_J0k

[Spellbound]

I think Bobby knew immediately afterwards that some of this was on him for how he went after Marcello.

Dave - Toronto

[Atlas]

Jesse Ventura's take:
cFquzQutmwE
s_Z32vrsyDI

[Curious77]

Cidersomerset -- Thank you so much for the recap as I'm a huge fan of MaeBrussel.
Will be back soon to read your post and all new posts. :)

[Praxis]

362033620436205I wanted to bump this amazing thread with excellent discussion with a link I came across and did not find other places on the forum.

https://whowhatwhy.org/2017/08/02/dallas-mayor-jfk-assassination-cia-asset/


This further cements what others have known about the players involved.

I also have PDF of payments to Charles Cabell from the CIA for "services" as a "consultant" after he was "fired".

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Thought I'd add this here: on the 'backyard photos', and the curious matter of Oswald's chin..

Like numerous others I have always thought the so called 'backyard photos' as deeply suspicious. These are the famous three photos that depict allegedly Lee Harvey Oswald sporting his Mannlicher-Carcano rifle and a bundle of pro-communist literature, probably taken some time in the summer of 1963. The foremost, below, is perhaps the most iconic, and widely-seen image of the 20th century. It was published on the front of Time Life magazine in 1964, sealing his fate before the nation as the "official lone assassin".

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/06/27/16/35B95D8800000578-0-image-m-17_1467042176236.jpg

But back in Dallas on November 22nd 1963, Oswald was presented with this 'evidence' by Will Fritz, Dallas Police dept. Chief of Homicide, during his interrogation. Oswald dismissed it, saying, "I never saw that picture. It is my face, but my face has been super-imposed -- the rest of the picture is not me at all. I've done a lot of photographic work, and that picture was made by someone else..."

The pictures were investigated first by the Warren Commission (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Commission), and again more than a decade later during the House Select Committee on Assassinations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_Select_Committee_on_Assassinations) hearings, but concerns were almost entirely shown to be unfounded (or perhaps the whole thing was just swept under the rug!). The line of enquiry fizzled out, probably until Oliver Stone brought it back into the public consciousness with his 1991 film 'JFK' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JFK_(film)), which contained scenes of the photos being staged and put together by spooks. It has since become yet another layer of inveiglement to shroud the case.

So was it, as Oswald claimed, a hoax - an insidiously engineered set up to further implicate him?

As you may know, many researchers are of the opinion that it is not Oswald posing in the pictures, and that his face was cut and pasted onto someone else's body. This could be proven, they say, by a most glaring inconsistency - Oswald's chin. This has become the cornerstone of the 'backyard photos' conspiracy theory.

The controversy surrounds the anomaly of his 'pointed chin' - which he appears to have in known historical images, as well as those taken of him after his arrest at the Texas Theatre, and the 'square chin' - which he appears to have in these backyard photos. Two starkly different chins would then certainly indicate two different individuals. It would prove the backyard photos Oswald was not the real Oswald. A clear set up.

Mugshot, alongside another photo after his arrest - with pointed chin
36372

The famous 'backyard' picture – square chin
36368

Oswald does have a fairly pointed chin in many images - most notably the mugshot, which is the one most often held up to compare against the square-chinned Oswald in the backyard photos. It's true, one chin does not much resemble the other. Yet if you look carefully at other, less famous footage taken of Oswald after his arrest, you can see that his pointed chin actually is quite square.

36365

36371

36364

Is the difference between pointed and square chin caused by lighting conditions? Is it musculature, which changes the shape of the chin with certain facial expressions?

I'm not sure, just asking the question. Because with this evidence, the pointed-chin argument loses some ground for me. Now, I'm not saying at all that the yard photos must therefore be authentically Oswald... After all, there are still many other anomalies in the photos, namely the shadows, the grain depth, the 'chopped-off' fingers on his right hand, his apparently missing left forearm, visual inconsistencies between this rifle and the rifle recovered from the Texas School Book Depository, issues with the camera itself etc - not to mention the highly suspicious stories of how the pictures surfaced (one as late as 1976), and the missing negatives, and plenty more as evidenced by photogrammetric analysis. The list goes on and on...

It could be possible that all this really means is that Oswald's whole face, chin and all, was super-imposed onto another body - not just eyes, nose, and mouth. But with regards 'chin evidence' alone trying to make the case, for me it doesn't hold all that much water.

Case still open.

[TargeT]

Soviets thought JFK assassination was a COUP and not a lone gunman from DAY1 (https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/78zua1/the_soviets_thought_it_was_a_coup_and_not_a_lone/)


LLAPOCFBz18

2,800 records relating to the assassination of John F. Kennedy were released by the National Archives yesterday, but more have been held back and will be reviewed during a 180-day period.


Wikileaks offering $100,000 to anyone who releases the rest of the JFK files. (https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/923711069113028608)

[mountain_jim]

A good summary of the details relating Bush to the JFK event that's around in several places and formats for several years. Jane Grey author, I believe.

http://themillenniumreport.com/2017/10/jfk-jr-told-the-world-who-murdered-his-father-but-nobody-was-paying-attention-5/

JFK Jr. Told The World Who Murdered His Father – But Nobody Was Paying Attention - george h w bush etc

[TargeT]

https://i.redd.it/eci0de88uhuz.jpg

[ramus]

Thought this to be a good addition HOPE NOT A REPEAT:

JFK Release: Second Shooter, UK Tipoff, CIA Media Infiltration, and LBJ Fingered
In Coup

by ZeroPointNow
Oct 27, 2017 4:21 PM




http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-10-27/jfk-release-findings-second-shooter-uk-
tipoff-cia-media-infiltration-and-lbj-fingere


Content originally published at iBankCoin.com

While yesterday’s pre-planned release of JFK files was significantly neutered at
the request of the CIA and FBI, enraging Lou Dobbs among others, the 2800+ files
which were released have been poured over extensively, revealing evidence of a
second shooter, a massive CIA infiltration of the MSM, a tipoff phone call
received 25 minutes before the assassination, and Soviet intelligence indicating
the assassination was a coup involving LBJ among other things.

Summary of findings so far:

Two shooters, one escaped:

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32144493.pdf [p. 3]

J. Edgar Hoover's comments suggest Oswald wasn't a shooter:

The evening of the assassination, J. Edgar Hoover told Lyndon Johnson’s aide,
Walter Jenkins, “The thing I am concerned about, and so is Mr. Katsenbach, is
having something issued so we can convince the public that Oswald is the real
assassin.”

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32263509.pdf [p. 3]

Soviet belief in a well orchestrated coup:

“According to our source, officials of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union
believed there was some well-organized conspiracy on the part of the
“ultraright” in the United States to effect a “coup.” They seemed convinced that
the assassination was not the deed of one man, but that it arose out of a
carefully planned campaign in which several people played a part.”

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32204484.pdf [p. 3]

https://twitter.com/williamcraddick/status/923711122926051328

The KGB allegedly had evidence LBJ was behind the coup:

According to a CIA source, “it was indicated that “now” the KGB was in
possession of data purporting to indicate President Johnson was responsible for
the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy.

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32204484.pdf [p. 5]

Jack Ruby claimed it was LBJ as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv3o9vx3VNM

A UK Journalist was tipped off 25 minutes before the assassination

A memo written to the director of the FBI from the deputy director of the CIA
notes that a UK journalist employed by Cambridge News received an anonymous
phone call 25 minutes before the JFK assassination telling him to call the US
Embassy for “some big news.”

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32357111.pdf [p. 2,
3]

The CIA infiltrated the media and religious institutions

In a February, 1976 note, the CIA’s Office of the Director issued a memo which
states “Genuine concern has recently been expressed about CIA relations with
newsmen and churchmen.” As a result, the agency instituted a new policy not to
enter into paid arrangements with these institutions.

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32403785.pdf [p. 3]

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32403785.pdf [p. 3]

Over 40 journalists ‘who doubled as undercover agents’ worked for the CIA

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32403785.pdf [p. 17]

We then discussed the matter somewhat at more length and I gave ball park
figures of various categories of journalists with whom we had contact. I said
that the total free lance stringers with whom we had varying degrees of
association was in the area of 40.

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32403785.pdf [p. 16]

CIA-NBC connection

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32279986.pdf [p. 2]

Lee Harvey Oswald – agent of the U.S. government?

Jewish involvement?

The secret service interviewed hundreds of people deemed “threats to President
Kennedy’s safety” from March – December, 1963. One of the interviewees was an
anti-Castro Cuban national named Homer S. Echevarria, who – the day before the
assassination – “allegedly approached informant to provide machine guns for
Cuban rev.,” (revolution) and allegedly told the informant “We now have plenty
of money — our new backers are Jews — as soon as ‘we’ or (they) take care of
Kennedy…” The Secret Service note states Echevarria “expressed favorable
attitude toward LBJ.”

Before reaching any conclusions, note that this is the only claim of Jewish
involvement in the assassination aside from Jack Ruby (Jacob Rubenstein), and
could be misdirection or scapegoating by Echevarria.

That said, The Sun reports that Lee Harvey Oswald and Jack Ruby met each other
on a trip to Cuba “to cut sugar cane” weeks before the assassination.

They were part of a group of 30 or 40 “hippie looking” people who were on their
way to Cuba to cut sugar cane, airport manager George Faraldo told
investigators.

This bombshell will shed new light on the truth behind JFK’s assassination and
whether Oswald was to blame for the former president’s murder.

Ruby, whose real name is Jacob Rubenstein, shot dead Oswald, 24, two days after
the presidential assassination in November 1963.

But just weeks before, Oswald and nightclub owner Ruby were apparently both part
of a large group of “mostly young” people heading to Cuba.

Mr Faraldo told the FBI that Ruby and Oswald were dressed casually in a sport
shirts and trousers.

The airport manager added that Ruby “spent most of the time not mingling with
the group but standing against the doorway that led from the waiting area to the
rear plane boarding area.”

At one point he saw Oswald approach Ruby and ask: “Have you heard anything from
the Big Bird yet?”

Of note, LBJ – apparently a former Klan member – reportedly had a huge penis,
and Sesame Street wasn’t on the air until 1969 – well after Kennedy’s
death.Download the JFK files here:

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/zip/jfk.zip

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/zip/jfk.z01

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/zip/jfk.z02

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/zip/jfk.z03

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/zip/jfk.z04

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/zip/jfk.z05

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/zip/jfk.z06

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/zip/jfk.z07

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/zip/jfk.z08

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/zip/jfk.z09

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/zip/jfk.z10

[OSIRIS7]

ritual murder , oliver stone had it symbolically right.
the first catholic president murdered at the date pope clemens installed the papal bull to take captive of J de moley and claim all the posessions of the freemasons.
do you remember Jacqueline Lee Bouvier fleeing the car ???
all she did was grabbing the piece of skull ripped off by the shot of the front driver .
but anyhow ... great share of the vid.
have you read oswalds lovers book ? jusyth vary baker

[OldArcher]

Great thread! I'm still of the mind that MJ-12 was one of the prime movers in this tragedy. JFK's murder was my generation's first wake-up call. For you younger people, perhaps it's 09/11/2001. For my parents, it was Pearl Harbor, 12/07/1941. Regardless, in each instance, the world changed, and not for the better. I cringe, when pondering "what's next?" It most likely will be worse, far, far, worse...

Good Luck to Us All...

[Valerie Villars]

The author of "Dr. Mary's Monkey", Ed Haslaam was on WWL radio on Friday. He will be in New Orleans on the night of October 18th at a bar called Le Bon Temp Roulet. That date is Oswald's birthday and the bar was somewhere Oswald was known to be upon occasion. I have been there too many times to count.

Remember, Oswald was born in New Orleans.

The interviewer said every time he interviewed Haslaam, it was THE most popular show he had ever hosted.

On the 19th Haslaam will be at Barnes and Nobles on Veterans in Metairie, along with Judith Vary Baker, for anyone who wished to meet and talk to them.

[T Smith]

The author of "Dr. Mary's Monkey", Ed Haslaam was on WWL radio on Friday. He will be in New Orleans on the night of October 18th at a bar called Le Bon Temp Roulet. That date is Oswald's birthday and the bar was somewhere Oswald was known to be upon occasion. I have been there too many times to count.

Remember, Oswald was born in New Orleans.

The interviewer said every time he interviewed Haslaam, it was THE most popular show he had ever hosted.

On the 19th Haslaam will be at Barnes and Nobles on Veterans in Metairie, along with Judith Vary Baker, for anyone who wished to meet and talk to them.

Hi Val... have you read the book? Or going to see him? (I'm assuming this bar it's in your neck of the woods)

I read Haslaam's book a couple years ago. A real Hollywood-like thriller, except it's nonfiction!

[Valerie Villars]

T, I have read that book about five or six times. It has so many yellow highlights because of it's criss cross with my life, that it is positively eerie. New Orleans back in the day was quite a small town for a big city.

I read Judith Vary Baker's book also. So did my father. He stated in his opinion, Judith is telling the truth, as there is no way she could know all the small details of New Orleans back then unless she did what she said she did and knew who she says she knows.

To this day, I am convinced that my reading of "Dr. Mary's Monkey" openly during work breaks at the formerly Delta Primate Center is part of what got my job eliminated.

I'd love to go and see them, but I doubt I'll go to the bar on Friday. That area of the city would take a good hour and a half for me to get there, at night.

The anecdotes from New Orleans people which tie in to all aspects of the JFK thing is really amazing. I've heard many and they all corroborate Ed Haslaam's version of things.

[Valerie Villars]

Something interesting from this morning's New Orleans Advocate.

Lee Harvey Oswald was born in New Orleans and was placed in a position at the W. M. B. Reilly Company, as a cover for his "real" work with the CIA. It is located on Magazine Street and is still in business.

This morning there was an obituary for a Julius John Oswald Sr. who died at the age of 96. He was Office Manager at W.M.B. Reilly Co. for most of his life.

Having been born in 1923, he would have been 40 years old at the time Kennedy was assassinated and in the same time frame Lee Harvey Oswald worked there. Interesting.

[Lunesoleil]

“Don't ask yourself what your country can do for you, ask yourself what you can do for your country. " This formula is indisputable since it was pronounced before one of the largest possible audiences, during the inauguration speech of the new President of the United States, Democrat John Fitzgerald Kennedy, on January 20, 1961.

The inauguration ( Inauguration Day (original version) is the moment when the president elected in December [1] officially takes office by taking an oath before the president of the Federal Supreme Court. However, its political resonance is more disturbing. Present it today to a panel of our fellow citizens asking them to situate it in the political spectrum; how many, if they do not know the author, will associate him with the right, or even with Marine Le Pen? However, John F. Kennedy, without being a representative of the left of the Democratic Party, was indeed a progressive, determined to rebuild the American social contract by attacking racial segregation, which the Supreme Court had declared unconstitutional in 1954, and the precariousness of a large part of the population. His mandate, tragically interrupted by his assassination on November 22, 1963, turned out to be poor in significant progress because he did not know how to maneuver Congress, where the segregationist states then voted democratic in the secessionist tradition [2].

But his successor, Vice-President Lyndon Johnson, succeeded in 1965 in passing the laws on minority voting rights, on Medicare and Medicaid social assistance, on environmental protection, to implement the 'affirmative action, etc. In short, the most convincing record after FD Roosevelt in terms of federal state action on the economy and society, which is only obscured today because of Johnson's responsibility in the Vietnam War. . We are therefore poles apart from the posture of Republican Ronald Reagan in the same circumstances, almost twenty years to the day after Kennedy: “Government is not the solution to our problems; government is the problem [3]. "
Source traduction english
https://www.revueconflits.com/histoire-mot-a-mot/

:Avalon:

[pueblo]

Well this is different. I have not done any real research on the JFK assassination and have not watched this whole video yet, but have a look at the 12min mark in this video.

It shows Jaqueline Kennedy shooting JFK and then toss the gun behind his back...

As to the veracity of the video, I have no idea.

r2-fI16jZyQ

[Journeyman]

:jaw:
Well this is different. I have not done any real research on the JFK assassination and have not watched this whole video yet, but have a look at the 12min mark in this video.

It shows Jaqueline Kennedy shooting JFK and then toss the gun behind his back...

As to the veracity of the video, I have no idea.

r2-fI16jZyQ

Plot Twist... :bowl:

I found another video linking this to the Mandela effect: https://youtu.be/U8ZK44DNYKw

I believe Jackie Kennedy is a much more significant figure than her portrayal as a fashion icon. The subsequent move to the Onassis bloodline family suggests that as does a look at her family tree, with wealth and links to intelligence agencies.

[Kryztian]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/James_Woolsey_2015.jpg/220px-James_Woolsey_2015.jpg
R. James Woolsey (1941 - )
16th Director of Central Intelligence (1993 - 95) and
United States Under Secretary of the Navy (1977 - 79)

Robert James Woolsey Jr., Director of the CIA from 1993 to 1995, just penned a book about the Kennedy Assassanation and has a new theory about who did it : Russia!!! (I kid you not.)


A new book from a former CIA chief and another high-ranking intelligence official from communist Romania has presented a new theory of the assassination of former president John F Kennedy.

The new book, seen by The New York Post, claims that Lee Harvey Oswald was instructed by Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev to assassinate President Kennedy.

According to the newspaper, the book says the Soviets later changed their minds about the assassination but that Oswald refused to stand down and went through with the plan as initially instructed.
from: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/jfk-assassination-theory-cia-chief-b1806287.html


So, the directory of the organization the promoted the term "conspiracy theorist" to defame disparage those who questions the official story (https://www.nancyonnorwalk.com/theres-a-conspiracy-theory-that-the-cia-invented-the-term-conspiracy-theory-heres-why/) of what happened, is now coming up with his own story of what happened.


Oswald knew that Nikita Khrushchev, the leader of Oswald’s paradise and new home, the Soviet Union, had entrusted him with that task, and he was confident he could pull it off,” the authors write.

The two men are said to offer no evidence of an assassination order, or of any order to reverse course. They say all the evidence needed to make their case is contained in the 26-volume Warren Commission Report but that much of it was “codified”.

“Decoded, these pieces of evidence prove that John F Kennedy’s assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald, had a clandestine meeting in Mexico City with his Soviet case officer, ‘comrade Kostin,’ the authors write, “who … belongs to the KGB’s Thirteenth Department for assassinations abroad”.

Okay, so know we have to look for secret codes in the Warren Report? :bored:

[Journeyman]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/James_Woolsey_2015.jpg/220px-James_Woolsey_2015.jpg
R. James Woolsey (1941 - )
16th Director of Central Intelligence (1993 - 95) and
United States Under Secretary of the Navy (1977 - 79)

Robert James Woolsey Jr., Director of the CIA from 1993 to 1995, just penned a book about the Kennedy Assassanation and has a new theory about who did it : Russia!!! (I kid you not.)


A new book from a former CIA chief and another high-ranking intelligence official from communist Romania has presented a new theory of the assassination of former president John F Kennedy.

The new book, seen by The New York Post, claims that Lee Harvey Oswald was instructed by Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev to assassinate President Kennedy.

According to the newspaper, the book says the Soviets later changed their minds about the assassination but that Oswald refused to stand down and went through with the plan as initially instructed.
from: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/jfk-assassination-theory-cia-chief-b1806287.html


So, the directory of the organization the promoted the term "conspiracy theorist" to defame disparage those who questions the official story (https://www.nancyonnorwalk.com/theres-a-conspiracy-theory-that-the-cia-invented-the-term-conspiracy-theory-heres-why/) of what happened, is now coming up with his own story of what happened.


Oswald knew that Nikita Khrushchev, the leader of Oswald’s paradise and new home, the Soviet Union, had entrusted him with that task, and he was confident he could pull it off,” the authors write.

The two men are said to offer no evidence of an assassination order, or of any order to reverse course. They say all the evidence needed to make their case is contained in the 26-volume Warren Commission Report but that much of it was “codified”.

“Decoded, these pieces of evidence prove that John F Kennedy’s assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald, had a clandestine meeting in Mexico City with his Soviet case officer, ‘comrade Kostin,’ the authors write, “who … belongs to the KGB’s Thirteenth Department for assassinations abroad”.

Okay, so know we have to look for secret codes in the Warren Report? :bored:

Not sure if you follow the 'Q' narrative Kryztian, but seeing old CIA guys looking to pin this, that and everything on Russia does match up to how that is playing out. Russia being used in this case to divert attention from China which is allied with the 'old order'.

Sounds like a very poor attempt however. As a former Deep State big player the best Woolsey can come up with is codes within the Warren report? Very poor!

[mountain_jim]

We watched (2 hour) Oliver Stone's special recently - was excellent

(full article and links at links)

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/jfk-revisited-through-looking-glass-oliver-stone

https://off-guardian.org/2022/01/23/jfk-revisited-through-the-looking-glass-by-oliver-stone/



JFK Revisited: Through The Looking Glass With Oliver Stone
A Film Review
Edward Curtin

https://assets.zerohedge.com/s3fs-public/styles/inline_image_mobile/public/inline-images/ed-jfk-revisited-banner-2000x900.jpg?itok=2dqjLSgv

Two of the greatest speeches ever delivered by an American president bookend this extraordinary documentary film. It opens with President John F. Kennedy giving the commencement speech at American University on June 10, 1963 and it closes with his civil rights speech to the American people the following day.

It is a deft artistic touch that suggests the brevity of JFK’s heroic efforts for world peace and domestic racial equality and justice before he was assassinated in a public execution in Dallas, Texas on November 22, 1963.

In the former anti-war speech, he called for the end to the Cold War with the Soviet Union, the halt to the arms race, and the abolishment of war and its weapons, especially nuclear. He said:

What kind of peace do I mean? What kind of peace do we seek? Not a Pax Americana enforced on the world by American weapons of war. Not the peace of the grave or the security of the slave. I am talking about genuine peace, the kind of peace that makes life on earth worth living, the kind that enables men and nations to grow and to hope and to build a better life for their children – not merely peace for Americans but peace for all men and women – not merely peace in our time but peace for all time.

In the latter address to the American people, having just sent National Guard troops to the University of Alabama to make sure two black students were admitted despite the racist objections of Governor George Wallace, his words transcended the immediate issue at the university and called for the end to the immoral and illegal discrimination against African Americans in every area of the nation’s life.

He said:

One hundred years of delay have passed since President Lincoln freed the slaves, yet their heirs, their grandsons, are not fully free. They are not yet freed from the bonds of injustice. They are not yet freed from social and economic oppression. And this Nation, for all its hopes and all its boasts, will not be fully free until all its citizens are free.

Having framed the documentary thus, Oliver Stone and the screenwriter James DiEugenio do a masterful job of explaining what really happened in the years of Kennedy’s short presidency, why he was such a great threat to the CIA and the military-industrial complex, what really happened when they killed him, and how the Warren Commission, the CIA, and the corporate media have worked hand-in-hand to this day to cover up the truth.

The current two-hour version of JFK Revisited: Through the Looking Glass will be followed in a month or so by a more detailed four-hour version.

< much more at link >

[norman]

The Man on the Grassy Knoll
TheRealStoryoftheKennedyAssassination
July 17th, 2021
https://thumbnails.odycdn.com/optimize/s:200:0/quality:95/plain/https://spee.ch/9/bce51a28ae145a94.jpg
The-Man-On-The-Grassy-Knoll---The-Israeli-Assassination-of-John-F-Kennedy:a

[norman]

The Hijacking of America - A Presentation on the Israeli Assassination of John F Kennedy
TheRealStoryoftheKennedyAssassination
June 26th, 2020
https://thumbnails.odycdn.com/optimize/s:200:0/quality:95/plain/https://spee.ch/9/bce51a28ae145a94.jpg
@TheRealStoryoftheKennedyAssassination:b/JFKPresentation1:3

[onawah]

Dark Journalist just did a couple of shows recently about the JFK assassination, featuring new evidence.
See: https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?102135-Dark-Journalist-Joseph-Farrell-UFO-X-Factor-Black-Budget-Secret-Space-Network&p=1528473&viewfull=1#post1528473
and
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?102135-Dark-Journalist-Joseph-Farrell-UFO-X-Factor-Black-Budget-Secret-Space-Network&p=1529184&viewfull=1#post1529184

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

New Link Found Between CIA and Oswald

It's not a name I've ever head, but new a document release has revealed that a CIA agent by the name of Ruben Efron was intercepting Oswald's mail in the months leading up to the assassination.

What this essentially means is that, contrary to six decades of denial, Oswald was on the CIA's radar, and was tied to them -- I personally believe as a counter-intelligence asset working for both pro- and anti-communist groups as an informant. Oswald may have been (as some strongly believe) the mysterious "Lee" who tipped off the FBI and thwarted a previous assassination plot against JFK, scheduled to take place on a visit to Chicago just weeks before Dallas.

Oswald almost definitely had mob connections too, and several have testified to have seen him in the company of Jack Ruby, at his nightclub, in the summer of '63.

Bottom line for me: Oswald was not a nut, not even a collaborator. In his own mind he was an asset placed specifically to protect American interests and the President. He did not fire a shot that day. He likely witnessed the assassination in fact - not from the sixth floor of the School Book Depository, but out at street level in front of the building where several witnesses placed him to be standing when the shots rang out. Finding himself right in the middle of the kill-zone he realised his danger. The job he was "given" in that building, possibly as an undercover man, had been no coincidence - that had been the plan all along, ever since the motorcade route was planned out. It was a set up, and he was their chosen patsy.

HLmrBhlKp6o

[norman]

Ole Dammegard has an upcoming interview with the guy who pulled the trigger behind the picket fence (James Earl Files, also known as James Sutton).

JFK mafia assassins revealed with CIA, Secret Service, future presidents all involved

https://rumble.com/v326132-jfk-mafia-assassins-revealed-with-cia-secret-service-future-presidents-all-.html

v2zkm62/?pub=1yatds

[norman]

Was John F Kennedy’s Body Dumped Out At Sea?
Jaco & Ole Dammegard Follow up to the interview above

https://lightonconspiracies.com/was-john-f-kennedys-body-dumped-out-at-sea-2/?ct=t(RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN)&mc_cid=f7110550af&mc_eid=61acce85a9

v330at8/?pub=1yatds

[onawah]

The CIA's Secret Role in the Robert F. Kennedy Assassination: The Truth Finally Comes Out
Kim Iversen
541K subscribers
6,647 views Aug 10, 2023

(More about RFK's assassination than JFK's, but they are certainly related in more than one sense of the word.)

"Lisa Pease is an expert on the assassinations of the '60s in general and the Robert Kennedy assassination in particular. She is the author of A Lie Too Big to Fail: The Real History of the Assassination of Robert F. Kennedy."

9skRotGIt9A

[mountain_jim]

https://twitter.com/RobertKennedyJr/status/1700688502826938588?s=20

1700688502826938588

text

Robert F. Kennedy Jr
@RobertKennedyJr
The magic bullet theory is now dead. This preposterous construction has served as the mainstay of the theory that a single shooter murdered President Kennedy since the Warren Commission advanced it 60 years ago under the direction of the former CIA Director Allen Dulles whom my uncle fired. The recent revelations by JFK’s Secret Service protector Paul Landis have prompted even the New York Times-among the last lonely defenders of the Warren Report-to finally acknowledge its absurdity.

https://nytimes.com/2023/09/09/us/politics/jfk-assassination-witness-paul-landis.html

^ paywall for that article.


https://twitter.com/PaulHook_em/status/1700688712865120550?s=20

1700688712865120550

update

https://twitter.com/jsolomonReports/status/1700894482193870990?s=20

1700894482193870990

< more links at link >


https://justthenews.com/government/white-house/secret-service-agent-next-jfk-during-assassination-challenges-official?utm_source=mux&utm_medium=social

Secret Service agent next to JFK during assassination challenges official narrative

Former Secret Service agent Paul Landis, who was feet away from President John F. Kennedy when he was assassinated in Dallas on Nov. 22, 1963, is coming forward with his version of events that challenge the official government narrative.
"If the bullet we know as the magic or pristine bullet stopped in President Kennedy’s back, it means that the central thesis of the Warren Report, the single-bullet theory, is wrong," one researcher said.'

Landis, who struggled with so much trauma in the aftermath of the assassination that he left the Secret Service, is publicly telling his full story for the first time after more than six decades, The New York Times reported Saturday.

Landis, 88, had always believed that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone in shooting the president. Without elaborating further, Landis said: "At this point, I’m beginning to doubt myself. ... Now I begin to wonder."

In recent years, he has shared his account with multiple key figures, including former Secret Service Director Lewis Merletti as well as author and lawyer James Robenalt. His entire narrative will be detailed in his upcoming memoir, "The Final Witness," which will be published Oct. 10.

If his recollections are accurate, it may indicate that the central thesis of the Warren Commission is incorrect. The presidential-appointed commission, which never interviewed Landis, concluded in 1964 that the single bullet struck the president's back and exited through the front of his throat before hitting Texas Gov. John Connally and injuring his back, chest, wrist and leg as he sat in the front of the presidential limousine. The idea that a lone bullet could do such damage seemed so incredible that skeptics have called it the "magic bullet" theory.

The commission reached that conclusion in part because a bullet was discovered on a stretcher that it was believed Connally laid on at Parkland Memorial Hospital, so they assumed it exited his body as medical professionals worked to save his life.

However, Landis said he found the bullet in the presidential limousine in the back of the seat in front of Kennedy. In the chaotic scene after the assassination, he was concerned that souvenir hunters would try to take evidence from the vehicle, so he grabbed and put it next to Kennedy on his stretcher.

Landis thinks now that at one point the stretchers were pushed together and the bullet transferred to Connally's gurney.

"There was nobody there to secure the scene, and that was a big, big bother to me," Landis said. A crowd was quickly forming and Landis said: "I was just afraid that — it was a piece of evidence, that I realized right away. Very important. And I didn’t want it to disappear or get lost. So it was, 'Paul, you’ve got to make a decision,' and I grabbed it."

Robenalt, who has thoroughly researched the assassination and assisted Landis in processing his memories, said: "If what he says is true, which I tend to believe, it is likely to reopen the question of a second shooter, if not even more."

"If the bullet we know as the magic or pristine bullet stopped in President Kennedy’s back, it means that the central thesis of the Warren Report, the single-bullet theory, is wrong," Robenalt also said.

If Connally was struck by another bullet, then Oswald may not have been responsible for it, as Robenalt argues that he could not have reloaded his 6.5 mm Carcano rifle so quickly.

Duquesne University President Ken Gormley, a prominent presidential historian, helped Landis find an agent for his book.

Gormley said he is not surprised that Landis came forward years later.

"It’s very common as people get to the end of their lives," Gormley said. "They want to make peace with things. They want to get on the table things they’ve been holding back, especially if it’s a piece of history and they want the record corrected. This does not look like a play by someone trying to get attention for himself or money. I don’t read it that way at all. I think he firmly believes this. Whether it fits together, I don’t know. But people can eventually figure that out."

Landis' version of events is different from two written statements that he made in the week after the assassination. He did not mention finding the bullet and he only reported hearing two shots, not three as the Warren Commission found.

Landis said the reports he filed after the shooting included mistakes, as he was in shock and had hardly slept for five days as he focused on helping the first lady and did not pay attention to what he wrote. He did not think about mentioning the bullet at the time, he said.

He realized that the official bullet account differed from his memory in 2014, but he did not want to come forward over concerns that he made a mistake at the scene.

"I didn’t want to talk about it," Landis said. "I was afraid. I started to think, did I do something wrong? There was a fear that I might have done something wrong and I shouldn’t talk about it."

Additionally, his Secret Service partner Clint Hill discouraged Landis from speaking out at the time.

The House Select Committee on Assassinations concluded in 1979 that Kennedy was "probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy," but the "committee is unable to identify the other gunman or the extent of the conspiracy."


'

[Bill Ryan]

I've NOT watched this yet, but the thousands of YouTube comments are fully supportive and the documentary seems very compelling. It disappeared from the internet many years ago, but was re-uploaded 2 days ago and has already had nearly a million views.

The YouTube text:
This is the full 2003 Documentary prison interview of James E. Files, recorded in the Stateville Correctional Center, Joliet Illinois. After an FBI tip, Kennedy assassination investigator Joe West found James Files serving time for the attempted murder of an Illinois police officer.

At first, Files was reluctant to talk, but West persisted and established a relationship with a man with first-had knowledge of various aspects of the world of organized crime, government operations, and key people involved in planning and carrying out the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.
The Shocking JFK Confession from Prison


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44x5I-kP48o

[Vangelo]

I've NOT watched this yet, but the thousands of YouTube comments are fully supportive and the documentary seems very compelling. It disappeared from the internet many years ago, but was re-uploaded 2 days ago and has already had nearly a million views.

The YouTube text:
This is the full 2003 Documentary prison interview of James E. Files, recorded in the Stateville Correctional Center, Joliet Illinois. After an FBI tip, Kennedy assassination investigator Joe West found James Files serving time for the attempted murder of an Illinois police officer.

At first, Files was reluctant to talk, but West persisted and established a relationship with a man with first-had knowledge of various aspects of the world of organized crime, government operations, and key people involved in planning and carrying out the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.
The Shocking JFK Confession from Prison


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44x5I-kP48o

Compelling and believable. At 2:45:45 timestamp the camera shows the person doing most of questioning. It looks like Jim Marrs but I not at all sure.

[Satori]

He does look and sound like Jim Marrs.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Yes I do believe it is Marrs.

Having been at the forefront of the JFK investigation almost since day one in 1963, Jim Marrs accumulated arguably the most detailed and exhaustive body of evidence on the assassination. His seminal work, Crossfire: The Plot That Killed Kennedy (https://www.amazon.com/Crossfire-Plot-That-Killed-Kennedy/dp/0465031803/ref=sr_1_3?crid=3HEPF2BVKCKGR&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.ugHH7RZ-s6dztJP2TdLbG9EES9L5FQ2NxJjRM6hI3vmEV24Tb6VRY8KYLjzqtD4RLOIHYCd29C1_hID183nF7YBoT1hWDIPif-6Bf3Kllys5-iEITIsp0lInKB7xI5BjJSFWVixNaoRTODH1w-twLoHR59fzCNYoIb8DeWyxuaD6ULn1_NhhfbM_s69BMvKV6MKq51GGtITlasDdnALp4JQLeaY-zYvtLAKqliaGVX8.5ZsMZKdsWbQ8bdhrJMWTNT6-VfKoMu4eIIz0YEnByI8&dib_tag=se&keywords=crossfire&qid=1724073027&s=books&sprefix=crossfir%2Cstripbooks-intl-ship%2C153&sr=1-3), is required reading on the subject.

The above interview with Files took place in 2003. Over the following years, Marrs continued to investigate and research his claims. By 2013, he ruled Files out as a shooter in JKF's assassination (he wasn't even there that day).

Marrs uncovered many holes in Files' story. The final nail in his coffin came in 2006 when the 'dented cartridge' that Files supposedly left on the grassy knoll as his calling card was determined after lengthy ballistic analysis to have been manufactured no earlier than 1971.

Several times in the past Files' name has come up as a suspect, but each time he's looked at his story and credentials fall apart. In my opinion he's a red herring, quite possibly to run interference -- Files does have connections to the military, the CIA, and the Chicago mob, which Marrs outlines in his work. But he dismisses him as a player in the assassination (its plot or execution), and personally I agree with this assessment.

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Potentially BIG:

Currently trending on X --

Alex Jones
@RealAlexJones
🚨HISTORIC JFK ASSASSINATION TAPE DROPS🚨

WORLD EXCLUSIVE: Never-Before-Heard Audio Of Former Executive Director Of The DNC & Close Associate Of LBJ, Clifton Carter, Admitting That LBJ Hired Mac Wallace To Assassinate JFK!

» WATCH THE LIVE X STREAM HERE:
1879312259349930294
https://x.com/RealAlexJones/status/1879312259349930294

I'm still watching, but I did some flipping through my books on the assassination, and found this in the comprehensive and ever reliable archive of Jim Marrs.

I copy this here in full:


By 2013, numerous people had been identified as a possible Grassy Knoll gunman. But to this author's knowledge only four identified persons have actually confessed and all started out as American GIs. Of these four, only two offered any real evidence and even this was contradictory and far from conclusive.

The story of one of these men, Loy Factor, became public when researchers Mark Collom and Glen Sample self-published the 1995 book The Men on the Sixth Floor. Collom had met Lawrence Lloyd Factor when both were hospitalized in 1971. Factor's story seemed so farfetched that both the publishing world and most researchers ignored it.

Loy Factor was a Native American who claimed to have suffered brain damage while serving in the military during World War II. His story, as recounted by author Robin Ramsey in the 2007 book Who Shot JFK, was this:




Factor met a man he knew only as Wallace [my emphasis] in 1962 at the funeral of a Texas politician. Factor said he went along just to see some famous people. In the course of their conversation, Factor boasted to Wallace of his shooting and hunting skills. Wallace was interested and asked for Factor's address. A year later he turned up and asked for a demonstration of Factor's shooting ability. Having seen it, the man told Factor that he might have a job for him in the future using his rifle, a job worth $10,000 -- $2,000 immediately and the rest when the job was done. Factor accepted the $2,000... Later the man sent for Factor to do the job. Factor was taken to a house in Dallas where he met Jack Ruby, the man called Wallace, Lee Harvey Oswald and a young Hispanic woman, Ruth Ann. They ended up on the sixth floor of the book depository. [After firing coordinated shots at Kennedy, the group] fled quickly down the stairs -- Ruth Ann and Factor to their parked car, Oswald and Wallace in different directions. Loy was driven to the bus depot, a few blocks away where he was to catch a bus back home. But in a short while Ruth Ann and Wallace both returned to the depot to pick up Factor and drive him out of town.


Marrs continues:

It would be easy enough to dismiss Factor's story, especially since he claimed to have collected $10,000 for his role yet never fired a rifle, except for the fact that years after publishing their book, Collom and Sample learned Wallace's first name was Malcolm or Mac and in 1998 heard that a group of Texas researchers had identified fingerprints found on the sixth floor of the Texas Book Depository the day of the assassination could be traced to Malcolm "Mac" Wallace, a convicted killer for hire, a longtime associate of Lyndon B. Johnson's, and the man at the centre of Factor's story. Factor also correctly recalled that the rear of the Depository faced north and there was a wooden loading dock there that was taken down not long after the assassination.

Wallace, who died in a car accident in 1971, was elected president of the Student Union at the University of Texas at Austin after returning home from the Marines during World War II. In 1950, he was introduced to Lyndon Johnson by Johnson's attorney Ed Clark and soon was working for the US Department of Agriculture in Texas. In October 1951, Wallace was arrested and convicted in the murder-for-hire death of Austin miniature golf-course owner John Kinser, who reportedly was in ill favour with Johnson due to his dating Johnson's sister, Josefa. Represented by Johnson's attorneys, Wallace nevertheless was convicted, with eleven of the jurors calling for the death penalty. However, the trial judge overruled the jury and announced a sentence of five years' imprisonment, which he immediately suspended.

This was not the only murder attributed to Wallace. Several deaths occurred during government investigations into Johnson's business dealings but the one that gained the most attention was the shooting death of Henry Marshall, the Agriculture Department official looking into illegalities by Texas cotton allotment kingpin Billie Sol Estes. Estes died in 2013 at age eighty-eight.

The Marshall case came to a climax in August 1984 when, after hearing Billie Sol Estes relate that he was present when Johnson, Wallace, and Johnson aide Cliff Carter [my note: the same person - I assume - as Clifton Carter from the tape in the above video, where he admits Vice Pres. Johnson hired Mac Wallace to Assassinate JFK] plotted to "get rid" of Marshall, a Robertson County grand jury changed the Marshall suicide ruling to homicide.

On the day of the assassination [of JFK], some twenty-odd fingerprints recovered from the sixth floor of the book Depository could not be connected to either Oswald, other Depository employees, or investigators. These prints were placed in the National Archives and generally forgotten except by John F. "Jay" Harrison, a Dallas police reservist and JFK assassination researcher. Harrison arrived on the scene of the assassination within minutes and maintained his research until his death in May 2005.

In the late 1990s, Harrison enlisted the aid of Nathan Derby, the retired head of the Austin, Texas, Police Department's Identification and Criminal Records Section, in matching the Depository prints with a jail card belonging to Mac Wallace. According to Derby, there was a fourteen-point match between the prints. US courts generally accept a ten-to twelve-point comparison as proof of a match. These results were made public at a news conference in May 1998, where it was announced there was no doubt that Wallace was one of the shooters.

[ExomatrixTV]

BREAKING NEW Audio Of JFK Assassination—You’ve NOT Heard & It Reveals Who Was Behind It!:

RDA-LW8rgHk
Sr. Bush also in on it


Mac Wallace: LBJ’s Deadly Enforcer Revealed!:

TuQwddwyPCA
Discover the untold story of Malcolm Wallace, Lyndon B. Johnson’s alleged hitman and a key figure in the dark web of power and murder surrounding JFK’s assassination. In this gripping exposé, we uncover Wallace’s transformation from an idealistic student to one of LBJ’s most feared enforcers. Was Wallace involved in the suspicious deaths tied to LBJ’s rise to power? What secrets do his fingerprints at the Texas School Book Depository reveal? Join us as we dive into the dark, mysterious world of political intrigue, corruption, and murder that shaped American history.

[rgray222]

JFK's grandson Jack Schlossberg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Schlossberg). a political activist and journalist is attempting to weaponize the release of information about the assassination against Trump. I think it is clear that Trump promised that he would do this if elected and he is simply following up on that promise. There is no reason to defend or prosecute Trump's actions because it is simply a release of information.

JFK, a very common sense conservative democrat must be rolling over in his grave.

JFK's grandson says there is 'nothing heroic' about Trump's declassification order

https://www.usatoday.com/gcdn/authoring/authoring-images/2025/01/22/USAT/77879877007-20250120-t-235120-z-691810171-hp-1-el-1-k-1-u-9-i-85-rtrmadp-3-usatrumpinauguration.JPG?crop=1949,1098,x0,y58&width=660&height=371&format=pjpg&auto=webp

President Donald Trump’s executive order to declassify the JFK files left one of the 35th president’s descendants unimpressed. Jack Schlossberg, former President John F. Kennedy’s grandson, made his stance on the order clear in a post on X, saying that there was "nothing heroic" about Trump’s latest move.

"Declassification is using JFK as a political prop, when he’s not here to punch back," Schlossberg wrote. "There’s nothing heroic about it."
1882546649429622978
After signing the order, which included the declassification of files on the assassinations of JFK, his brother Robert F. Kennedy and civil rights icon Martin Luther King Jr., Trump told reporters that "everything will be revealed."

RFK Jr., son of the late senator and Trump’s HHS nominee, told press that the order was a "great move" on the president’s part. He believes that the move will bring "more transparency" and it shows that Trump is "keeping his promise to have the government tell the truth to the American people about everything." Kennedy has called for answers on his father and uncle’s assassinations.

"I have now determined that the continued redaction and withholding of information from records pertaining to the assassination of President John F. Kennedy is not consistent with the public interest and the release of these records is long overdue," Trump's order reads.

The order gives officials just over two weeks (15 days) to give Trump a plan for "the full and complete release of records" on the JFK assassination. Additionally, officials have 45 days to present a plan on files relating to RFK and MLK Jr.’s assassinations.

King’s family reacted to the order in a statement, saying that they "hope to be provided the opportunity to review the files as a family prior to its public release."
1882614784631492949
While Trump promised to release the JFK files during his first administration, there is still an undisclosed amount of material that remains under wraps more than 60 years later.

Trump ultimately agreed to block the release of the files after pleas from the CIA and FBI. At the time, he said that the threat of making the documents public were of "significant gravity" that they outweighed "public interest." In a recent appearance on "Hannity," Trump said that then-Secretary of State Mike Pompeo asked him not to release the documents, though he did not say if Pompeo explained why the files should remain classified.

Source: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/jfks-grandson-says-nothing-heroic-about-trumps-declassification-order

[ExomatrixTV]

“NOT A Lone Gunman” Trump Declassifies JFK Files - Was It a Mob Job? With Michael Franzese:

TlAbPkMlNOU
The assassination of President John F Kennedy reverberated throughout the world as the tragic loss of a charismatic, energetic young leader. Known for his inspiring speeches and support for civil rights, his murder has spawned a library of conspiracies all about who could have benefited from it. Was it the Soviets? The CIA? The Mob?! Well, the truth may be about to come out, as Donald Trump has signed orders for the declassification of government reports on the JFK, RFK and MLK Jr assassinations. Conspiracy theorists and their detractors alike are anxious to see what these secretive files may reveal.

For an exploration of all possibilities, Piers Morgan brings together author Jefferson Morley, former capo for the Colombo crime family Michael Franzese and former CIA officer and host of 'The President's Daily Brief' Mike Baker.

00:00 - Introduction
03:00 - Investigative reporter Jefferson Morley on the CIA's role
06:17 - Ex CIA officer Mike Baker on whether a 'smoking gun' will be found
10:47 - Former Mafia capo Michael Franzese on the Mob's involvement
17:55 - Piers on Trump assassination attempt comparisons
21:00 - Will the CIA push back?
27:10 - Piers: 'We live in a conspiracy theory age'

[mountain_jim]

Morley getting around..


https://x.com/TuckerCarlson/status/1884663118888132747

1884663118888132747


Tucker Carlson

@TuckerCarlson
Jefferson Morley on the real reason it’s taken 63 years to get the JFK documents — and how we’ll know when they’re all released.

(0:00) The Potential Loophole in Donald Trump’s Executive Order
(3:58) Where Are the Documents Held?
(6:45) What Is the CIA Hiding?
(9:05) Will Amaryllis Fox Kennedy Oversee the Release of the Files?
(11:39) The MLK Files
(17:48) Was Lee Harvey Oswald a Patsy?
(21:01) Robert F. Kennedy’s Death
(24:02) The Israeli Nuclear Program Documents

Includes paid partnerships.

[mountain_jim]

https://x.com/MJTruthUltra/status/1884732732871246088

1884732732871246088


MJTruthUltra
@MJTruthUltra

Did Israel have anything to do with the Assassination of JFK? —— “This is a tough call for the President”

• One of the JFK Files still heavily redacted is the Testimony of James Angelton in 1975 to the Church Committee About the Secret Israeli Nuclear Program

• This 113 page document is categorized as an Assination related document that clearly pertains to Israel.

• Angelton controlled the Oswald files on the one hand, and he was a contact with the Israeli’s on the other

🔴 TUCKER ASKS WHY IN THE WORLD would the Dimona Project, the Israeli Nuclear Program have to do with the assassination attempt of JFK?

• It relates to what Angleton was doing in 1963, where there were profound conflicts over Israel and the Kennedy White House over Israeli’s Nuclear Program
—— JFK was pressing for onsite inspections of their facility, which the Israeli’s resisted, because they had a bomb making program.

• Was Angleton secretly supporting Israel against JFK?
—— that document may have that answer.

• When Lyndon Johnson became President after JFK was Assassinated, he did two things:
—— 1.) he almost immediately dropped the demand for onsite nuclear inspections
—— 2.) he dropped the demand for the American Israel Public Affairs Committee to register as a Foreign Agent (FARA)… which today is compared to AIPAC.

The gentleman argues President Trump has a tough call ahead of him, as he will get very strong pushback to from Israeli interests, the CIA, and the National security apparatus.

https://rumble.com/v6etuxy-did-israel-have-anything-to-do-with-the-assassination-of-jfk.html

[mountain_jim]

https://x.com/RealJoePortman/status/1885113170588495896

1885113170588495896

@RealJoePortman
🔥 JFK ASSASSINATION BOMBSHELL 🔥

The TRUTH is finally coming out. President Trump has ordered the declassification of documents that could expose Lyndon B. Johnson’s direct role in the assassination of John F. Kennedy.

💥 According to Roger Stone, these files will prove that LBJ ordered the CIA to eliminate JFK—a move that would confirm what many have suspected for decades: The Deep State has been running the show since 1963.

🚨 In a stunning revelation, Trump recently told Stone that these documents will seal the Deep State’s fate once and for all. The media won’t report on this, but the truth is too big to contain.

The CIA. The FBI. The highest levels of government. All involved in covering up the murder of a sitting U.S. president. And now, the files are being forced into the light.

This is HISTORIC. The biggest political conspiracy of all time is unraveling.

💣 WATCH & SHARE Roger Stone’s exclusive details NOW.

What do YOU think will happen when the truth is revealed? 👀 ⬇️



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GilFs74WEAANmeM?format=jpg&name=900x900

[BMJ]

‘Two shooters’: Bombshell insights into JFK files revealed

FkjuYEHiqgk

Sky News Australia
Feb 12, 2025

The head of a new congressional task force aimed at exposing “federal secrets” has revealed she believes “two shooters” were involved in the assassination of former US President John F. Kennedy.

The task force will investigate the assassinations of JFK, RFK and MLK.

It will also probe the Epstein client list, the origins of COVID-19, Unlicensed Assistive Personnel and the 911 files.

It will start with a “thorough investigation” of JFK’s November 1963 shooting death in Dallas, Texas with hearings expected to begin in March.

President Trump ordered the declassification and release of secret files on the assassinations of JFK, RFK and MLK last month.

Anna Paulina Luna said on Tuesday, based on what she’s “been seeing so far” the initial hearing was “faulty" in the “single-bullet theory”.

“I believe that there were two shooters,” she said.

Sky News host Gabriella Power said: “The truth has been covered up for far too long and that is about to change.”

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Anna Paulina Luna allays doubts that the process won't be fully transparent. Whatever is in these files is going to come out -- there will be full release.


Anna Paulina Luna
@realannapaulina
For those concerned about me being a “gate keeper” or “hiding info” (completely understandable given lack of transparency from decades of stonewalling) see below. This will also help to answer questions on how declassification works. The clock has begun:

“Within 45 days of the date of this order, the Director of National Intelligence and the Attorney General shall, in coordination with the Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs and the Counsel to the President, review records related to the assassinations of Senator Robert F. Kennedy and the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., and present a plan to the President for the full and complete release.”

Our task force will be conducting investigations into the declassified publicly available records (once they are declassified).

If you see people saying otherwise please point them to this tweet and help inform them on the facts. 🙏🏼

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gjt9kCPXQAEp6-N?format=jpg&name=900x900
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gjt9kFmXsAE2jXj?format=jpg&name=900x900

---
1890248319160484264
https://x.com/realannapaulina/status/1890248319160484264

[norman]

A Confession From The Man Who Shot JFK | Confessions Of An Assassin

-8DGv6KSBZI


I'll be very surprised if later revelations can prove this guy is lying.