Zen Gardner Exposed & Spotlight on Alt Media

[Citizen No2]

I held off for a few days to see if anyone else would pick-up on this, evidently not. This is an issue that has troubled me for sometime, troubled me enough to take some time-out, leave my home, visit some countries and places and meet some very interesting people. I found great comfort that there is a ground-swell taking place of like-minded individuals, individuals that have had enough of being lied to, of being deceived and being presented with ever more fanciful stories that are served-up without so much as basic due diligence.

I shall start this off with an introduction........C W Chanter. You can watch his channel here:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzEDwsA6ooejNKnEfi0Vqrg/videos

I do not agree with C W Chanter's stance on a lot of what he has to say, but then again, if I did that would be pretty weird.

What I do like about C W is that he will not take things that are reported in Alt Media at face value without checking facts and proper due diligence. I assume his work as an attorney-at-law stands him in good steed in this respect.

My second introduction is this gentleman, Mr. Phil Stone. He runs this blog, readable here:
http://www.philosophers-stone.co.uk

Again, a man that likes to dig a little deeper, who likes to verify and fact-check and who has posted some very disturbing findings regarding.............. Zen Gardner.


Zen Gardner has been exposed as a long-time leader in the child-abusing cult, The Children of God, formerly The Family. The details are disgusting, as one would expect. You can read about the how's and why's here:

http://www.philosophers-stone.co.uk/?p=13437

And watch this expose by C W Chanter here:

aPv3vOoFem0


In the expose above, another 'whistleblower' exposed is Bill Wood, real name William Brockbrader and a convicted paedophile and fantasist (http://wtkr.com/2012/05/31/newschannel-3-investigation-man-claims-to-be-navy-seal-with-psychic-abilities/), a Project Camelot favourite. I must state here that in the expose, C W Chanter links to David Icke, Kerry Cassidy and Bill Ryan, Mel C and the CCN. I personally find that a bit harsh as in these internet days, guilty-by-association can be only a click away, so on that point I do not totally agree with C W Chanter.......... BUT, it does raise a very important question about due diligence.

If you are presenting to the World a whistleblower with an outrageously fantastical story, stories so mind-blowing that they have the potential to shift peoples paradigms, then does the responsibility to check, check and check again not fall into your lap? It is an interesting question.

I have it on very good authority that this is only the start, that the spotlight of truth is about to shine bright upon some of those that have sought to elevate themselves as Truth Warriors. I also believe that a couple of Project Camelot's big hitter whistleblower's have been trying to hide damaging information regarding their past involvement with some sick s**t........... And also a man that has appeared on more than a few threads here recently. Watch this space, as they say.

This has the potential to be the single most damaging episode in the Alt Media scene. When we look back to see who to blame for the discrediting of Alt Media, we need only to look in the mirror. In our thirst for ever more fanciful information, nobody stopped to check the source of the water. I am of the opinion that this is what is needed, it is an essential cleansing of the polluted information sphere, but this phase will be more damaging in the interim than any Government psy-op.

This is about to get very messy and there will be some ugly, and disturbing, fallout.



R

[Bill Ryan]

.
CW is a newbie in the alternative media, is very egotistical, and is (or is trying to be) a kind of sensational, attention-grabbing internet shock jock, for lack of a better word. He's teamed up, at least in part, with a small group of Camelot and Avalon critics (including some people who were unsubscribed from the forum for pretty good reasons), and has many of his facts quite wrong -- which he's never bothered to check with key sources, one of whom might be myself. He has my e-mail address, and about 9 months ago I invited him to ask me any questions he liked. He never once has. That says something.

Re Zen Gardner, which is a separate issue, I'm not familiar with the facts there, so I really shouldn't make any comment at this stage. I've been aware of the allegations for about a week or so. I spoke with him once in a Skype group call organized by someone else which I was invited to, but never knew him, and know very little about him.

It's a shame -- another major understatement -- when the reputation of a group, or a movement, gets tarnished by just a few people. When that happens, the vultures and parasites really do love it.

[Callista]

Regarding Zen Gardner (aka Don Ferguson)

On 11 August we received an email from Steve Seymour regarding background on Zen Gardner.

Here is a copy of the content of the email:

I've sorry to have to break the news about Zen Gardner...

I tried to send this out yesterday when the news first broke, but the email failed.

http://www.philosophers-stone.co.uk/?p=13298

and

http://www.philosophers-stone.co.uk/?p=13329

Regards
Steve
Philosophers-Stone

The information was disturbing, because we had known Zen Gardner as a friend for about 12 months. We had known him as a person who told his truth and we had no idea about his background or we would not have communicated with him.

In light of the information on Steve’s website and also others (which you can source from Steve’s site) we have distanced ourselves from Zen and have removed from the internet the interview that we did we him.

We are not in judgement here – all these situations give us reason to exercise discernment. Our previous opinion of Zen was based on the faith that he was presenting himself truthfully and it seemed to us that he was a person of repute who had gained respect in the alternative media community.

We are hoping that Zen will be able to face the spectres of his past and be able to rebuild his psyche in a more constructive manner.

[Cardillac]

stop this video abruptly at at 5:07!!!- CW gives the satanic hand sign-

the plot thickens...

Larry

[Cidersomerset]

There are obsessive knockers out there the Gorilla is obsessed with David
Icke , but has not seemed to realise David has severe arthritis in his right hand...

He also busted Bill and Kerry for giving David a masonic handshake...

Gorrilla you are a masonic moron !!!...LOL


19bd2yTDkTI


David Icke Masonic Hand shake at Peoples voice Studio London - by Gorilla199

_-cykJFE00o

====================================================

C W 'RANTER' by the sound of it......I cannot feel any genuine truth seeking here.

Zen Gardner Expose Going Down Tonight!

He lists off some names as the topic of conversation including Zen Gardner , the
children of god, pedophilia , Bill Wood, Kerry Cassidy, David Wilcox , Bill Ryan
and others. All valid topics of conversation and its up to you if you want to listen
to his type of debate. Its up to the individual.

I listened to most of the interview and it was a ' harsh' listen , truths , half truths
speculation a mish mash of topics that need proper debate . His summing up of
David Icke and Jimmy Saville was laughable imo but there you go.

WngV1MKMOfU

====================================================
====================================================

Context should be considered.....


http://www.zengardner.com/wp-content/uploads/logo-top1.png

by Zen Gardner 8/8/16



I’ve deliberately avoided this subject as it drags up so much controversy and a lot
of traumatic memories besides the deep shame involved, but it’s time to lay it on
the table. It certainly aligns with all that is happening vibrationally as well as huge
events and changes in my own personal life as this shift turns up the heat, so here comes.

I’ve often referred to several major life changes that I’ve been through but have
been deliberately vague about a large part of my life, some even claiming I’m some
kind of agent of some sort because of the seeming obscurity about my background.
I’ve referenced my previous alternative Christian beliefs but never got into any
detail of what that entailed. I write forcefully about religion and belief systems and
hierarchy because I was subjected to a severe form of them for almost 27 years.

Following my original wake up and getting deep into spirituality and looking for how
best I could change the world, at 22 years old I joined the Children of God, later to
be known as The Family. Many of my generation tried various alternative lifestyles,
new religious movements and the like, most of which turned out to be cults in one
form or another, as was my case. I didn’t fully escape until 1999 after many years
of trying to change the group from the inside because I felt I had to give it my best
shot before leaving, having invested so much of my heart and life in it and what I
thought it stood for during those many years and wanting to leave with a clear
conscience.

read more

http://www.zengardner.com/my-missing-years/

[betoobig]

To me is very funny when people talks about other´s past.... we all have past lives, i wonder what horrible stuff we all have done at some point. Dont get me wrong, i am not trying to deffend or justify whatever anyone has done, including me. All this thing about evolution (which is no more than realizing what we allready are) is about bringing ego to light and all the shadow people will have, and have, the oportunity to heal. In that sense, no one will be left behind. Come to light or go to the void.
Now, Zen Gardner has enlightened and helped many of us with his writtings. This man had very good idea where are we and where are we heading. So if he knew the shadow side, all of us who benefited from his writtings are benefiting from his experience. It is my believe people can change. I love to hear what Zen has to say btw.
What has helped me to discern is the pattern of "divide and conquer", and i see this pattern here, i see an effort to divide. The past comes up to heal, noone excluded.
This is been like a cold shower though. They have done a good job.
To finnish i give you one question ¿how many people were involved or working for the shadows and came up blowing the whisthle and we thanked them for?
MUch love and, more tan ever UNITY

[Citizen No2]

That is a fair point betoobig, but not a valid one I am afraid.

IF you are going to set yourself up as a some sort of Truth Warrior, as a platform with influence, then you MUST address these issues right at the start of your journey. Bolting shut the stable door after the horse has run is too late.

Yes we all have a past, yes we have the right to change, to see and act upon our past mistakes and indiscretions. I spent 15 years of my life addicted to drugs, I served time in prison, I was lost for a long, long time. So I absolutely understand this point for I am of the same opinion, BUT, we are talking about paedophilia....... child abuse.

You takes your pick and makes your choices.


R

[Carmody]

Such methods and attempts are all about casting doubt into the minds of people.

I just did a quick search, and found more than one article trying pretty hard to smear David Icke into the ground regarding this Zen matter.

[TargeT]

I give the masonic hand shake around twice or three times a month... so far I haven't grown a tail nor eaten babies... (Correlation does not imply causation)

Lots of logical fallacies around, (aka thinking traps for the lazy) keep your thinking caps on tight!

I think the whole "alt personality" thing is just another way for us to fall in line with the rest of the economy.. pump one person up so they get to the corruption point, tip them over then co-op them... (or ignore them and co-op the movement)..

[Atlas]

From zengardner.com/my-missing-years (http://www.zengardner.com/my-missing-years/)



I’ve deliberately avoided this subject as it drags up so much controversy and a lot of traumatic memories besides the deep shame involved, but it’s time to lay it on the table. [...]

I was in a position of leadership in my later stages and it was very hard to witness and endure what I saw and experienced, as well as watching my own children suffer who are still in recovery decades later. Leadership was just executing policy from the top and the latest doctrines – or else. It was all oh so polite most of the time, but the punishments for rebellion and criticizing the highest inner sanctum were severe, and you had to learn to avoid those if you could. [...]

But why didn’t I grab my family and jump on the first bus out of there and blow the whistle on the whole sham? Another carefully planned obstacle was the fact that my children were scattered in other locations and of course no one had any money so that was another control tool and I was in the middle of Brazil. Still, it’s no excuse, just explaining the circumstances, as the system was tightly controlled. [...]

I’m not proud about any of this but it’s been my life and I have to deal with it, and am determined to spend my life helping to heal others while exposing horrific dynamics like these. [...]

[Citizen No2]

David Icke has been smeared for years, ever since the infamous Wogan appearance.

As far as I know, David does not have paedophilic tendencies. To date, there has been no evidence of this. Paedophilia is not like drug addiction, there is no treatment nor counselling. I am attracted to women, there is no amount of therapy or drugs that would make become sexually attracted to men. None. Your sexuality is part of your make-up.

Are there some here who are of the opinion that the message is more important than the messenger? Zen's version, almost portraying himself as a victim is very telling:
I didn’t fully escape until 1999 after many years
of trying to change the group from the inside because I felt I had to give it my best
shot before leaving, having invested so much of my heart and life in it and what I
thought it stood for during those many years and wanting to leave with a clear
conscience.


Some should dig a little deeper and see what his own son has to say. Shocking.

How many here with children would invite Zen Gardner into their homes for a talk on enlightenment, now this information is out of the bag?


I thought not.

Child abuse is THE WORST possible abuse to inflict on someone. If the victim is unlucky enough to survive childhood, there is a very good chance that a life of drug/drink/self abuse is what is in store, and in some cases these victims then go on to abuse children themselves...... That is why it is so devastating, you are sentencing someone, a child, to a life of sh*t. All for their own sexual perversions, and we haven't broached the subject of Satanic ritual yet.

As I said, you takes your pick and makes your choices.


R

I just want to add that I was not sexually abused as a child as far as I am aware of, not in the traditional understanding of sexual abuse.

[Citizen No2]

FFS!

The guy was 27 years in, he was one of the leaders, responsible for the media image of The Children of God.

Are we to believe that he had no idea what was going on with the children within this organisation? Why was one of their priorities to split the children up from their parents? One does not have to think too hard as to why.

And it is also very telling that only a few short days ago Zen was threatening a female who was exposing the truth to his involvement. See Callista's links to Steve's site for further details.

Bill Ryan wrote:



It's a shame -- another major understatement -- when the reputation of a group, or a movement, gets tarnished by just a few people. When that happens, the vultures and parasites really do love it.

There are also some of us that are sick to death with the lies and hidden agendas. People and their stories are promoted, on the whole, without proper due diligence........ with this modus operandi what did you expect? This needs to be talked about and I can already sea some balking at this and turning their backs. Why do you think there are vultures and parasites Bill?


TargeT wrote:


pump one person up so they get to the corruption point, tip them over then co-op them... (or ignore them and co-op the movement)..

Get to the corruption point? Really?? What about when they were corrupt to begin with, but nobody bothered to check.

[Cidersomerset]

Zen has confessed and is full of guilt and remorse. Is it to late ? and the personal
damage to his own children he will have to live with. Should we stone him ? or now
look at his views from another angle ? Time will tell .

As for David most of his story has been in the public domain warts and all. If any
thinks he's a shill or dis info agent fine , that's your journey.I find he has connected
many dots for me and is still doing sterling work in the alternate field.He has been
asked many times why if what he's says has any validity why is he still alive, The
vids are from around 2010. I think the ridicule factor was enough for the first
decade or more and now he is quite high profile.

Why Can't David Icke Be 'Taken Out'?

jikZ8ySb_N0

==================================================

SXXVOxY1spA

Uploaded on 15 Aug 2010
Why Hasn't David Icke Been 'Taken Out'?

[Hervé]

Not an easy subject to deal with but which is one which needs to be confronted, especially when one considers "Truth & Reconciliation" about what to do with the "elite" after the pitchforks and torches are laid down...

No doubt that many factions are going to turn this current buzzing to benefit their respective agenda(s) à la Rahm Emanuel.

Here is the opinion of an anonymous Henry Makow reader:

Zen Gardner - Forgiven Too Soon? (http://henrymakow.com/2016/08/%20Zen-Garner-Forgiven-Too-Soon.html)

August 18, 2016


http://henrymakow.com/upload_images/zg.jpg
(ZG left cult in 1999 at 49, so he must be about 65)


A prominent member of the conspiracy community, Zen Gardner, aka Don Ferguson recently "came out" as a former member of a notorious satanic sex cult.

My reader who wishes to remain anonymous feels he's getting off too easily. "Forgiveness is wonderful, but when it's premature it's enabling," she writes.

I agree that it's incredible that for 27 years he didn't know exactly what was going on.

It's incredible that no one outed him.
(Disclosure- ZG virtually stepped into my [H. Makow] spot on Rense.com after my break with JR. I don't hold that against him. I had promoted him to JR but Jeff was turned off by the name "Zen." I don't follow his work now. I am posting this because it is discussion and newsworthy. ZG's confession is courageous but was it foolhardy? Is it complete? ZG is repentant. Should his readers forgive and forget?)
by Anonymous
(henrymakow.com)

This article refers to recent revelations by Zen Gardner and the consequent sweeping it under the rug by many prominent alternative news sites. Some also made excuses for him. For those unfamiliar, Zen Gardner's website (http://www.zengardner.com/) is a kind of a combination of conspiracy investigation and new-age hopefulness.


http://henrymakow.com/upload_images/xfamily.jpeg


Mr. Gardner, who has many followers, recently revealed that he spent a good portion of his adult life in the cult known as "The Children of God" which later became known as "The Family." It is a cult of pedophilia.



Zen's confession is here: (http://www.zengardner.com/my-missing-years/)
The last stages of the official group were the very worst, where child abuse was taking place as a result of very deviant sexual "revelations" from the "Prophet". So many were appalled and started planning their escapes, but many were caught in the snare and many innocent children, teens and young adults were abused. I was aware there were incidents and went after abuses in the area I was supervising. But I had no idea of the extent it was going on in top leadership and specialized "training centers", the horrific details of which I later learned about like many others have in the documentaries and books covering detailed incidences which are available on line. Brace yourself, there's some very nasty, tragic stuff.


http://henrymakow.com/upload_images/the-bizarre-and-terrifying-propaganda-art-of-the-children-of-god-1413241513640-crop_mobile_400.jpeg
(the leader David Berg.)


But why didn't I grab my family and jump on the first bus out of there and blow the whistle on the whole sham? Another carefully planned obstacle was the fact that my children were scattered in other locations and of course no one had any money so that was another control tool and I was in the middle of Brazil. Still, it's no excuse, just explaining the circumstances, as the system was tightly controlled.

I have lived with deep remorse and shame for what I participated in and my gutless lack of conscious response. That many of these child abusers still run free is a travesty. I contributed to cult exposure efforts while inside and following my exit but I certainly could have done a lot more. Fact was, I wanted distance from it, as fast and as far and as soon as possible. I needed recovery as did my family and loved ones.

To allay anyone's questions the answer is no, I never participated in any form of child abuse, except being part of a system that was tolerating and even currying it at inner levels. That I own up to, as well as the fact that the training and hierarchical system had become regimented and extremely abusive as well.
Unfortunately ZG is sugar coating his confession. A friend of his did some research and discovered "The Family" is a satanic sex cult. She was horrified at the free sex, pedophilia and incest that takes place. The grisly evidence is presented here. (http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2016/08/the-cult-of-zen-gardner-a-monster-in-disguise-3397219.html?currentSplittedPage=0)

WHY THE ACCEPTANCE?
But I have been asking myself, who's protecting Zen Gardner, and who's not?
Protectionism is not just about politics and countries; it's also corporate and stinks of cronyism. Where is Jeff Rense, where ZG's column appears? David Icke has written only that his connection to ZG was incidental. (https://www.davidicke.com/article/382143/hatred-sean-adl-tabatabai-y) Shame on all who do the shielding!!

The main point is to expose Zen, not out of hatred, but for the children, and for Zen, as well. To not be enablers to any of this; let's not lose focus of that. Children everywhere are falling victim to this devastating dominance/torture. There is not enough remorse or compassion in Zen's response to all this. By remorse I refer to him involving himself in a pedo cult and helping to advance its agenda.

You can't be almost 50 years old (which he was at the time of his departure from the cult) and have invested most of your adult life (he joined at age 22) in an enterprise and not understand its M.O., especially if you rose to the top to become a leader within it. What exactly his contribution was to this cruel debauchery is not clear, but if he really wants to make good on his reputation (and his soul), he should dedicate the rest of his life to preventing pedophilia and exposing all who perpetrate it, especially cults that have kids trapped. He said he'd do something like that, but he's going to have to get a lot more humble and honest.

Because many still look up to him, I am hard-pressed to not hate, yet I work on that. But this abuse must be more fully addressed and somehow arrested. As far as trust goes, sorry Zen, maybe next life-time. Trust is hard-won. And to all those who would excuse him or cover for him or are stuck in some kind or hero-worship of him... please, just ask yourself, are you really helping him or humanity by not demanding something more from him, something that really shows he understands what he was part of?

Two links explaining more:
http://sorendreier.com/the-zen-gardner-deception/
http://yournewswire.com/david-ickes-friend-zen-gardner-confesses-he-ran-pedophile-cult/

ZG'S DEFENCE
Below are some quotes I extracted from Zen Gardner's reply (http://www.zengardner.com/few-replies/). Notice how he beats up and puts down those who require truth and accountability (us). And more than enough kettle/black. Can't believe how so many look up to him and am really upset with those who are covering for him by not covering this issue or by making excuses for him. Forgiveness is wonderful, but when it's premature it's enabling.

Here are the quotes, bold highlights mine:
"...I have no need to defend myself."..."It really doesn't matter."

"They have their issues to work out just as I do."

"We seem to need someone to go after to release our rage and indignation, as well as fear. Witch hunting and the inquisition are examples of this..."

"I won't bend or back down, there's no reason to. Some want more details and more grovelling, an attitude is insatiable and extremely misdirected and coming from an unhealthy place as far as I'm concerned..."

"It's not easy finding out who you're friends really are and having people you intimately trusted turn on you...
...it's not me that put myself on a pedestal nor ever said I was perfect; it's people's projections."

"...I give it my best shot and don't sit on the sidelines criticizing those who act."

"And for those with a morbid fascination for details and think I owe it to them, you need to do some serious self examination. ... But I don't owe you anything, you're again coming from a very perverse and misguided way of thinking."

"And if this offends anyone, tough." "I'm a very free man, free of guilt and shame, and owe no apologies."
FINAL THOUGHTS
It would be so interesting if any who knew Zen during his involvement in Children of God would somehow surface and tell more of what his involvement consisted of. Also, many of the commenters on the "Replies" article and "The Missing Years" article are slamming those who are "judging" him. It always gets to me when someone plays the "Do not judge" card. When Christ modelled that it did not mean we're not supposed to have opinions about right or wrong. I think he just meant don't judge a person's eternal soul or destiny. He certainly was able to speak up about what he disapproved of. Turn those tables, baby!

Thank goodness some are speaking up. Here are some comments I liked:

>> Zen, I cannot believe that you were a victim here for all those years. I wrote about the COG years ago and never lost my feeling of utter disgust at their practices. You, Zen, are a strong intelligent and creative insightful man and, as one who does understand the cult mindset, I say where there is a will there is a way to escape. If I had had even a whiff of such things going on around my family, I would have gotten the hell outta Dodge. You had options but chose not to take them or do what was right at the time. Your mind was not that weak and gullible; I do not believe that for a second. I question the level of scruples of your readers who are so understanding as if your writings of matters metaphysical undoes the damages done to those you interacted with (or did not help) in those euphemistically titled "lost years". Would they be so understanding were their family members effected? I can only hope you are on a healing path, Zen. But for now, I am disillusioned to the core with this. I know my weaknesses full well and they have NEVER included endangering the innocence of children.

http://henrymakow.com/upload_images/flirtyfish.jpg

>> ...the entire tenet of the COG and the pivotal foundation of this vile cult was built on physical or sexual abuse of one kind or another. These abuses included paedophilia and incest. All this wrapped up in a package disguised as religion. This was hard core abuse , not just" Flirty Fishing" which in itself is disgusting. As Zen was a leader in this cult and a press officer whose job was to represent the COG in as favorable a way as possible, to imply that he was unaware of this abuse is beyond belief. ... I fail to understand how any parent could place their children in any kind of danger and especially something involving the whole gamut of abuse. Even the faintest possibility of harm to a child is every parents greatest nightmare. The urge to nurture and protect our children is apart from bearing those children our greatest biological imperative , it should over ride any thing , including any kind of disgusting perverted ideology . If I thought that anyone even had the thought of abusing my children in any way , I would do them huge physical harm and gladly go to prison for it.

>> Oh I just couldn't leave. Apparently he knew when to leave the country and blame it on how ****ed up America is. He should take another look in the mirror before he starts putting the blame elsewhere. I'm not perfect. But I would never molest a child..Nor would I standby and let it happen if I knew it was going on.

>> To hear that someone they felt was trustworthy reveal he was a leader in a cult that was notorious for its depraved sexual practices is not only devastating but is perceived as a terrible betrayal , and to see the comments on this thread taking the stance of apologist for something they know is unforgivable must be a further insult to their suffering. This really isn't about the agendas of an internet community but is about real life and how terrible deeds done against real people have an effect that can corrode and destroy their very souls...

------

Love can heal, but it needs the truth to come first.

I think we'll see more surface over the next few days. I'm asking myself what I expect to get out of this. Well, aside from the hope that exposing more about pedophilia will somehow help arrest it there's the hope that Zen will own this more, show some real remorse, and take a job in a soup kitchen for two years. Do something very humbling and get off a self-created pedestal built on a lie or omission. And yeah, as ever, I need to do better in my own life with my own procrastinations.
Anyway, tip of the hat to all those who are willing to shine a light on this debacle. For the children, for all of us.


Latest from anonymous- Just came across some of the front covers of the brochures put out by "The Family" over the years. Naturally every member undoubtedly saw them. How could Zen's eyes have beheld these and his spiritual self not rebel? Here's a peek (http://alfa-img.com/show/the-family-international-flirty-fishing.html)

-------
Related - An Open Letter to Zen Gardner (http://www.philosophers-stone.co.uk/?p=13437)

(http://henrymakow.com/2016/08/forgiveness-must-be-preceded-b.html)First Comment by Dan (http://henrymakow.com/2016/08/forgiveness-must-be-preceded-b.html) "I can say that forgiveness must be preceded by genuine repentance. We cannot know if someone's repented, only they and God know."

- See more at: http://henrymakow.com/2016/08/%20Zen-Garner-Forgiven-Too-Soon.html#sthash.qzZhoOur.dpuf

[Citizen No2]

Cidersomerset,

I'm sorry to be so blunt, but are you on the same page, re this:
Zen has confessed and is full of guilt and remorse.


I'm sorry buddy, and this is only my opinion, but you are leaving yourself wide-open pal if that is your stance. I hope you were being sarcastic.


R

[Cidersomerset]

Cidersomerset,

I'm sorry to be so blunt, but are you on the same page, re this:


Quote Zen has confessed and is full of guilt and remorse.
I'm sorry buddy, and this is only my opinion, but you are leaving yourself wide-open pal if that is your stance. I hope you were being sarcastic.
R

That's how I read it , it could be BS but as I said time will tell ,I'll have another look.


Zen has confessed and is full of guilt and remorse. Is it to late ? and the
personal damage to his own children he will have to live with. Should we stone
him ? or now look at his views from another angle ? Time will tell .

So you do not feel he is genuinely remorse full and more will come out.

Possibly and he will have to face the consequences.

Most cults and religions attract fanatics and followers that end up exploited
and abused . Its a difficult subject especially when children are involved.

Man Alive 1971 Children of God/Jesus People Documentary

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy46wj4XE94

[betoobig]

Forgiveness is the only way to Unity, the elite knows it.
For-give, what are you going to do? Judge? punish? Kill? not our misión.
Only love can help right now. IMO
Much love

[shadowstalker]

C.W Chanter's ego is through the roof here. Still don't know what to make of him.
I came across a video of his a few weeks ago, never went back.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTqIGEDqjgo

[Atlas]

[...] our rage and indignation
You don't need Zen Gardner to be outraged or shocked by this kind of stuff.

End Of The World Cult:
8-NXf1ZVCzM

Michael Travesser, a.k.a. Wayne Bent, has stated that he is the Messiah. He and his 56 devoted followers live in Strong City, NM. He believes that the Book of Daniel has predicted that some important events would occur on OCT-31 and DEC-15. This has been widely reported as a prediction that the world was to end with some sort of apocalyptic event at midnight on one of those dates. It didn't happen. (source (http://projectavalon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4542))

Wayne Bent (b. 1941), also known as Michael Travesser of the Lord Our Righteousness Church, also known as the "Strong City Cult", convicted December 15, 2008 of one count of criminal sexual contact of a minor and two counts of contributing to the delinquency of a minor in 2008.

[Agape]

It would be so interesting if any who knew Zen during his involvement in Children of God would somehow surface and tell more of what his involvement consisted of

The question to all those 'interested' is who are you really to be so interested and in whom ?
In Zen ? Laughing loud . I mean , if you're interesting in Zen .. and call yourself Zen go to Zen and do some gardening .

Other than that , is 'Don Fergusson' somehow especially significant and important person more than the thousands of people involved in the 'Children of God' ?

Aren't the other thousands of people also responsible ?

Aren't the millions of people currently and previously involved in all sorts of fanaticism also responsible ?

Is saying 'sorry' simply enough ?

NO, IT ISN"T. Go and explain your MIND and what it went through , step by step and why you were so naive to be so involved .
What happened in your life and your brain . Allow the 'conscious self' to surface , bring out the 'watcher', the 'observer' of your intents ,

27 years is long journey . There had to be moments of love , moments of doubt , moments of anger ,
there's nothing in any of these sects happening that is not explainable by psychology and physiology and some pathology too but we're commonly rather evading the research , missing the links and explanations .

Be the teacher you were meant to be . There's no 'old person' and 'new, another person' , mostly , in life even if it seems so . And if so then how and why .


Why do I ask is because there's hive mentality out there masquerading itself under millions of guises that is ultimately responsible for every major humanitarian disaster and tragedy on this planet , not ever any one person is responsible .
It's the 'collective' , the human hive . The psychology of the crowd that's so profoundly different from psychology of an individual .
We all need each other but that does not mean hiding your self behind collective and expressing yourself in 'plural' as 'we' really helps .

How many companies are already exploiting , misusing this human weakness . How many religions , groups , systems , countries ..

Aren't 'we' a society of sovereign , unique and free individuals instead in every aspect of our existence and wisdom .


Aren't you . No, you aren't . Yes you are . Your choice .

[Atlas]

there's nothing in any of these sects happening that is not explainable by psychology and physiology and some pathology too but we're commonly rather evading the research , missing the links and explanations .
Were you ever able to clearly identify the 'pathology' you're referring to?
http://www.mediamonitoringafrica.org/images/uploads/Sowetan_26032012p5v.1_.jpg

[enigma3]

When someone "repents" after that person has been found out, after the fact, it is not genuine repentance. It is a form of covering your a$$.
I just put folks like Ferguson on ignore.
David Icke has defended Ferguson for years. One wonders how much Icke really knows about Ferguson's time with COG. He seems to be trying to distance himself from sick man Ferguson now. What a mess.

[Hervé]

I do not know ZG nor do I have listen or read any of his materials (I think).

So, sifting through some of the data available, there is one major point in favor of Zen Gardner, aka Don Ferguson, and that is that he did leave that COG and with his family, in 1999.

That, in itself, is a major feat.

Those familiar with cult escapees' stories should be able to get the gist of the above point (testimonies of C of $ escapees with all the pressure, black mail, no money nor job qualification; comes to mind).

That he did leave has some important implications, the main one being a major disagreement with an environment he didn't - or cease to - "enjoy." That speaks volumes by comparison with those other "leaders" who seem to find some satisfaction or benefit to remain in such an environment.

[Atlas]

[...] aside from the hope that exposing more about pedophilia will somehow help arrest it [...]
Child rapes horrify New Delhi (CNN) A spate of rape cases involving very young children has shocked New Delhi and prompted calls for authorities to do more to stop them. Two teenagers, aged 16 and 17, were arrested Sunday for the alleged abduction and rape of a two-and-a-half year old girl, who went missing from outside her home in Western Delhi.

"The girl was first abducted in front of her house, then she was taken to a park nearby where she was raped," deputy police commissioner Pushpendar Kumar told CNN Monday.

Separately, a five-year-old girl was raped in Eastern Delhi on Friday night police said. Three people have been arrested in connection with the rape, joint commissioner Sanjay Beniwal told CNN. He said that the rape was committed by one of the men in the presence of two of the arrested. The three accused and the girl's family were co-tenants, Beniwal added.

Both girls are recovering in the hospital, and are in a stable condition, according to officials. These latest incidents come within one week of a four-year-old being raped, again in the capital. In that case, police have arrested one man for the alleged rape, deputy police commissioner Vijay Singh told CNN.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/10/19/asia/new-delhi-child-rapes/

http://indpaedia.com/ind/images/3/38/Child_rapes.jpg
Rape in India: Why India is so famous for rape crime?
OeAYnTg2yXY

[Mike]

You know when you wake up to an alarm clock in the morning...and the disorientation causes you to initially be unsure of where the grating, irritating noise is coming from...and then it grows louder and louder and more obnoxious by the second until you finally snap out of your slumber and violently and frustratingly slap the thing off? Thats what listening to Chanter is like.

[Innocent Warrior]

Zen Gardner wrote -


I’ve deliberately avoided this subject as it drags up so much controversy and a lot of traumatic memories besides the deep shame involved, but it’s time to lay it on the table. It certainly aligns with all that is happening vibrationally as well as huge events and changes in my own personal life as this shift turns up the heat, so here comes.

[…]

I have lived with deep remorse and shame for what I participated in and my gutless lack of conscious response. That many of these child abusers still run free is a travesty. I contributed to cult exposure efforts while inside and following my exit but I certainly could have done a lot more. Fact was, I wanted distance from it, as fast and as far and as soon as possible. I needed recovery as did my family and loved ones.

To allay anyone’s questions the answer is no, I never participated in any form of child abuse, except being part of a system that was tolerating and even currying it at inner levels. That I own up to, as well as the fact that the training and hierarchical system had become regimented and extremely abusive as well.

Well he was pushed so I’m hoping to God that he really does face it now and stop trying to run away from it. Not just for him but for any children who knew that he knew and didn’t stop it. It will hurt like hell but if he does he could begin to move past all that remorse and shame.

When you suffer like those children did and you find out that an adult/s knows but doesn’t stop it, that seeds rage like you wouldn’t believe, it’s a lot, for a long time, and it feels like it’s going tear your soul to shreds.

Agape wrote -


Is saying 'sorry' simply enough ?

NO, IT ISN"T. Go and explain your MIND and what it went through , step by step and why you were so naive to be so involved .
What happened in your life and your brain . Allow the 'conscious self' to surface , bring out the 'watcher', the 'observer' of your intents ,

27 years is long journey . There had to be moments of love , moments of doubt , moments of anger ,
there's nothing in any of these sects happening that is not explainable by psychology and physiology and some pathology too but we're commonly rather evading the research , missing the links and explanations .

Be the teacher you were meant to be .

That would be a great start. Help those children who’d now be adults to understand, help them with their pain, say sorry to them. I hope people like the commenters on his relevant blog articles wake up and understand the seriousness of Gardner’s part in this. By all means, continue to provide a loving and compassionate space for him and please don’t judge him but enough with the fluffy bullsh!t already, be real about it, we’re talking devastation for totally innocent and defenceless children here.

The young man in the video below was a member of the COG, his name was Ricky Rodriguez. This was his suicide note/video, it was filmed in 2005 and he was 29 years old.

3p0-iLcx4es

[Agape]

there's nothing in any of these sects happening that is not explainable by psychology and physiology and some pathology too but we're commonly rather evading the research , missing the links and explanations .
Were you ever able to clearly identify the 'pathology' you're referring to?


Wait a second . The person in question did not identify himself as 'pedophile' or 'child abuser' .
If he did so I doubt we would be able to participate in this debate in the same way because the law would have to take over .
He/she would have to be taken to protective custody , tried legally and undergo psychiatric evaluation and subsequent treatment .

I'm saying this with respect to some of the postings made elsewhere whether it's on 'our site' or not .

This is not our job , not your job to accuse that person of intentional or unintentional crime .
Reminds me of other cases treated similarly here on forum and elsewhere on social media .

He merely revealed he participated in religious organisation /sect run in very strange and risky manner and was aware of child abuse . I suppose, even if partially aware because the sense of awareness in such group undertakings can never be exactly described as 'clear' , due to the strong and supportive presence of the group they think and see themselves as someone acting with sense and within the norm .

There is still another facet to this . You don't need 'sect' and 'hive' for child abuse or any other abuse being ignored by the society .
It keeps happening everywhere around us, including some of the so called 'best families' .
It's also part of the myth that only children are victims of such abuse . Sometimes it's women but sometimes it's men .
It frequently goes on for years unreported and neither the victim ( or victims ) or the witnesses have enough courage to ask for help because they fear the consequences and very few relationships in families are emotionally 'clear cut' .

You won't stop loving a parent if they're being mean to you at the same time. Even if they're mean , they still feed you or do something good for you at the same time no one would probably do for you ( or at least you think so ).

Trying to make sense of this ... but from most of my experience , people with strong participation in groups and sects are not 'clear' about their self-image , about what's right n wrong , self-evaluation , conscience .. now what about that of others ?

It often seems to be 'a blend' for those people . It's simply not your everyday clear conscience and awareness . There's often the same reason of why people enter one of the groups . Search for self-definition ( they call it ) , an attempt to hide behind collective , distorted self-image .
If you have healthy view of self and life , you won't last long in any such group . Most of them ( especially the religiously oriented ) keep people in by making them aware of their 'weaknesses' and offering them 'to improve'.

It's a false illusion of truth they offer because most of us know too well our weaknesses and we also know ways how to improve .

Behavioural therapy in strict sense works with 'wrong doers' of 'criminal intent' , those who are not able to recognise their faults.

If you're , on the other hand, person with strong sense of responsibility and conscience who are already overstressed and over-aware of your situation that often involves history of personal abuse and being blamed for others while trying to help them out, repeatedly , falling to state of 'disgrace' with yourself and as result in the collective is rather frequent .
Most predators ( including sects and their leaders ) feed easily on victims of previous abuse .
It's a sick, tragic chain. Children neglected or beaten at home end up in streets or seek refuge with unsafe groups . Running from one 'sect' you may well end up in another or turn to a victim of abusive institution .

It takes much strength to break free from that chain .


So back to the topic , I don't see ( yet ) where he would confess himself to be a perpetrator of crime . I can see where he is a victim.

It does not mean that he's not 'guilty of participation' .

As I'm now by posting here . We are not 'court of law' . We don't know the full details , will never know all of the details .


The 'media dialogue' needs exactly two ethically evolved sides to be engaged , his and the others .

I don't think it's upon anyone to 'forgive him' or 'pass judgements' unless they were personally involved .

If he's worth his name then full disclosure and revelation of workings of that group would be in tune with current trend of openness and understanding .

It may clear some social pathways for todays kids ..


:star:

[boutreality]

Re: Icke

I personally feel aliens, including Reptilians are controlled by people. -That the royals/the elite relocate a portion of their sentient conscious awareness into a reptilian body. I hold that this is in fact what aliens are.
If you'd like to consider what I have to say about that idea, I just started a thread called "NAZIS, NWO and the NEW AGE" in the conspiracy forum.

I'm not too put off by CW's ego- I think he's just sort of excited by what he's saying. I believe the business side of these topics works against any of this fields ability to provide actual answers; just one glittering carrot after another with no real answer ever.
-There's no profit to be had in that.

[Agape]

Were you ever able to clearly identify the 'pathology' you're referring to?


Lack of empathy . Irresponsibility with self and others . The perpetrator often see it as 'game'. In extremely pathological cases they live in state of derealisation where everything is seen as either 'game' or 'illusory reality'.
They think it somehow 'does not matter' because they once lost something precious or in case of children , are unaware of life values and 'all the rest' is practically worthless .
They don't have love . Person who have love and are capable of love can change.


( Sorry I had some say to the topic and realised then I did not respond to your question )

[boutreality]

Agape-

What does the pathology matter when we're talking about ongoing criminal activity? I appreciate your view, it offers an insight. However, when crimes against children are the issue, the pathology is a moot point.

[Agape]

Agape-

What does the pathology matter when we're talking about ongoing criminal activity? I appreciate your view, it offers an insight. However, when crimes against children are the issue, the pathology is a moot point.

Of course it matters , very big way . I don't understand what way are you looking at it , even for a moment , help me out ?

Do you think that what you refer to as crimes 'just happen' by adults ( or young ones ) by the intent of crime ?

It's not that way . The perpetrators always end up in hands of mental health institutions if they're identified , there's no question about that.

Yes there are probably few crimes , especially those against or involving children that are conducted for some other reason but compared to say 'ongoing children abuse' the percentage of those is rare in my opinion because you're defined as 'sentient being' under normal circumstances and are instinctively and emotionally 'wired' to protect children and other members of society in need .

So if there's ongoing abuse in society , including children abuse there're adult psychopaths behind it . And them too were once children mistreated by other psychopaths.


Public groups attract and hide them a lot . It's how it becomes ultimately unsafe for anyone with good intents to be involved with such 'risky cases' such as the one above because we really , rarely , can help .
And there's probably another 10 of 'them' watching the topic at all times .

[OnyxKnight]

Just in case some missed the memo or haven't payed close attention - The western world is under attack, especially Europe. Adoption of backward cultural matrices in place of one's own, relativization of offense and discrimination, condemnation of normal, regular western people. Feminists and liberals burying their own culture to the ground, defending and promoting islamic one and sharia law (including child marriages), and now the latest is a push to normalize pedophilia, originating from the leftist side. All these things coincidentally occurring at the same time? I don't think so. This is more important than half the things discussed here on a daily basis, due to it happening right now with full steam ahead.

If you don't do something about it today, tomorrow if not your kids, then your grandkids will suffer the consequences of idle observation and inaction.

[boutreality]

Agape-
I hold that possessions by inter-dimensional influences are pandemic and likely the source of most crimes. It does not change the fact that when a crime is committed the perpetrator is culpable.
My take -the inter-dimensional presence(s); your take- the pathology, will never change that.

By the by I very much appreciate the spirit of "vet your sources in the alt media" that CW and this thread represents.
Thank You Citizen No2

[Sean]

Yeah. Zen's "confession" isn't close to being enough. He may or may not have had sex with kids, but he certainly was part of the abuse structure. And his own kids too. Yeah. Time for a criminal investigation of what went on, if the statute of limitations hasn't run out.

The children who were abused need justice. And Zen, and whoever else that's left that was part of this, needs to go to prison.

[boutreality]

I say abolish the statute of limitations for crimes against children.

Too many of these despots, it seems, make hay of knowing the fact that their victims are children -and often their victims are intoxicated- so that once a victim remembers their abuse, the statute of limitations has run out.
Which is most likely planned out scenario is some circles, considering how many known pedos are lawmakers.

Agape-
I agree that better identifying life conditions and tendencies in the one-day abuser and addressing those issues may stem the amount of child abuse across the board.

It will do nothing for those that have already committed the crime, they deserve to be punished.
If you'd like to envision counseling them until they know what they did is wrong and understand what in their own inner workings justified their behavior, great!

Now they know they deserve their jail sentence; it's not a one or the other proposition in my book.

[Soda]

Just in case some missed the memo or haven't payed close attention - The western world is under attack, especially Europe. Adoption of backward cultural matrices in place of one's own, relativization of offense and discrimination, condemnation of normal, regular western people. Feminists and liberals burying their own culture to the ground, defending and promoting islamic one and sharia law (including child marriages), and now the latest is a push to normalize pedophilia, originating from the leftist side. All these things coincidentally occurring at the same time? I don't think so. This is more important than half the things discussed here on a daily basis, due to it happening right now with full steam ahead.

If you don't do something about it today, tomorrow if not your kids, then your grandkids will suffer the consequences of idle observation and inaction.

I agree 100%. Thank you. It appears to me that everyone is consumed with being "right" and speculating about this or that when we have all the evidence we need. Anytime someone comes out with real truth WITHOUT ASKING OR BEGGING FOR CASH they are shamed and crucified and thrown out as supposed fakes. The truly enlightened (the truly illuminated if you like) would never get into physical/virtual fist-fights over non-issues. Again, thank you. :bowing:

[Cidersomerset]

From article.....




But 27 Years??

I have to address this point, but it won’t satisfy most. To understand why someone would
get caught in something like this for such a long period of time can be comprehended by few.
I’m not going to play the victim card as I remain totally accountable for my actions and inactions,
but when such intense programming 24/7, even though willfully waded into, is working in your
mind, heart and psyche, you lose your bearings. We didn’t have outside information, not even
music. This was as insular as you can get except outright captivity.



http://www.zengardner.com/wp-content/uploads/logo-top1.png

Sifting Through the Debris

By Zen Gardner -
20/08/2016

by Zen Gardner

I’m asking “where to now” in many contexts as this all transpires. Not just my own life that has been
seriously derailed from its previous direction and that of my children now being put through this renewed
societal abuse syndrome, but of the so-called truth community in general. That such vicious and unconscious
reactive outbursts could be triggered by anyone telling their personal awakening story, no matter how sordid
their past may appear and all the innuendo and assumptions that transpire, is remarkable to behold.

read more

http://www.zengardner.com/sifting-through-the-debris/

[Satori]

"What would Jesus do?"

[Bill Ryan]

"What would Jesus do?"

Let's take the separate case of hundreds, if not thousands, of prisoners on death row for serious capital offenses, awaiting their state-commanded execution.

Jesus would probably have forgiven them all. But he wouldn't have broken them out of jail.

[Innocent Warrior]

JOHN 8:7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."

[Cidersomerset]

JOHN 8:7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them,
"Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."

I was thinking of that quote but could not recall it and almost wrote.....

" Let him/her without sin cast the first stone " , but thought that might sound over dramatic....

Again until more comes to light we should be cautious with any accusations.
I'm not defending or accusing him I have seen a lot this on the Jimmy Saville
thread and posted many articles there.

[boutreality]

Weeze & Onyx Knight-

It takes a collective effort to solve the mess we're in. The more accurately we can identify who is at work ensuring the mess is perpetuated the better off we are when it comes to settling on how we'll get out of this.

Many in the Alt Media position themselves as a "more clear view" of what key factors play into the real problems of the world and who (or what) needs to be taken care of if we are to have a hope of solving those problems.
Questioning the source in this regard contributes something in strengthening our ability to discern a path to a solution apart from what's "offered to us" simply because the "reporter" wants to attract hits to their sites and money to their pockets.

For me the way out is "everyone engage a discipline and dedicate their sentient being to ridding the Earth of the scum." I offer many detailed accounts of what's behind that scum, it's from my own dedication toward this end. The likelihood that a mass of people will decide to find their own way to dedicate themselves in the same way I have isn't very high- I agree people enjoy the side routes more than the path.

I'm not caught up on "hoping" I'm believed and that others aren't listened to- that's beside the point- we are miraculous in our potential and we can end this problem.

A well vetted beacon directing people toward what facets stand in our way is what is needed in the Alt Media. -That's what the worth is. The tone of the quote you captured is "Yeah, but the sky is falling." -How is that helping?

Bill- I agree, Jesus would not let them out of jail. I do enjoy when people can crystallize a sentiment.
Thanks

[sandy]

Zen's exposure is offering him the opportunity to walk his talk, however crippling that makes his present day! Should he truly do this and in time become authentic, he will have full understanding and devastating acceptance of his transgressions, especially of the children and all those he held power over and with. Should he not and his half assed attempts at doing so do not work, then he has the knowledge and skills to move to where he is not known and start all over again, his behavior depicitng the psychopathic/sociopathic and or Nariccistic charateristics that need to be watched for and continually revealed from here on in. That is what these personalities do ..............they move onto new territory and waiting victims.

Big lesson for all those still requiring a belief in authority of some kind to show the way................thus; it is important to not only read, but research, discern and above all listen to your own intuition, connect to your own integrity, and work on being your talk, not just talking but walking ............and for sure............ OWN your S**t as it presents and disclose it when appropriate.

Skeletons cannot fall out of the closet if you have already taken them out for review and each time you find one, you put what you have learned into becoming a better person, sharing your insight and experience with those that it may help along the way.

As far as Jesus goes, the "dogma" says he practiced what he preached...

[TargeT]

TargeT wrote:


pump one person up so they get to the corruption point, tip them over then co-op them... (or ignore them and co-op the movement)..

Get to the corruption point? Really?? What about when they were corrupt to begin with, but nobody bothered to check.

Oh, I did not make my stance very clear... But I guess I'm not clear with myself.

I don't know when that point (corruption) happens, but I do know 27 years is a very long time. I also feel that for the most part people are NOT corrupt to begin with.. if that were the case things would be much worse than they are.

I also know that our experience is fluid, and I am blessed that I never have experienced what Zen is going through (full term experience, not just the now). I'm not saying to treat the person any different, and I guess this actually goes strongly against one of the "logical fallacies" I hold dearest (though in truth, when clinically approached (proper distance / objectivity etc..) it still holds true); that the source is less important than the content of a message.

I'm conflicted, I'm a parent of 6 wonderful children. Does logic still work here, or does emotion over rule it (I could rationalize it as survival instinct, at the least; maybe)?

[OnyxKnight]

If you'd like to envision counseling them until they know what they did is wrong and understand what in their own inner workings justified their behavior, great!

I agree with everything you said, other than this here. They are not reformable people. This has been tried and tested ever since the psychologists and psychiatrists began to study them. When they get out, they become repeat offenders, which is why more and more countries now resort to chemical castration, in order for there to be no repeated offences.



The tone of the quote you captured is "Yeah, but the sky is falling." -How is that helping?

A well vetted beacon directing people toward what facets stand in our way is what is needed in the Alt Media.
-That's what the worth is.

I agree, maybe I could have worded it a bit differently. My point was, while we discuss things here like stargates in the Middle East, a child of somebody you know might be abused or victimized by monsters like these, who sadly have connections everywhere and are not easy to expose. I know it sounded like I'm just reaching doomsday here, but it's actually a call for more vigilance and involvement. More direct action.

You don't have to go arm yourself and hunt for pedophiles or anything like that, there's people already devoted to that, but we can help by adding names to their lists, or supporting them and what they do, since they take time out of their lives to pursue this as a single focus outside their job, and sometimes this IS their job. There's a growing pedophile outing community on Youtube and it doesn't take much to contribute. Report comments or profiles, or just support a hunter that already does this there, etc.

Or, when you have muslims in your area advocating for Sharia Law, or are repeat offenders, push your local administration to give out the appropriate punishments, and if need be, deportation. I don't think people realize how serious this problem is, largely because many don't know many muslims (nor are more familiar with islam as a religion), and any that they do, are mostly secularized ones that are far from the larger troublemaking mass.

It's not a coincidence this is all happening simultaneously. Unless we cut the root in time, things will blossom out of control, and then there's gonna be nothing to be done about it. And then nothing will be helpful to say or do.

[Atlas]

How-old-was-Mary-mother-of-Jesus-when-she-gave-birth-to-Jesus (https://www.quora.com/How-old-was-Mary-mother-of-Jesus-when-she-gave-birth-to-Jesus)

Mary was 13 when angel Gabriel appeared before her. Please also note that Mary was not subjected to a physical relation with God.

...Gabriel was sent to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, and the virgin’s name was Mary...the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary... you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus”

But Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?” And the angel said to her in reply, “The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you...”

According to our best knowledge she was 14 at the time of giving birth to Jesus.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My question is: why did they choose such a young girl to be the mother of Christ? How come they didn't choose an older woman instead? Were they in a hurry? Why not wait until she was 18 years-old?

[Cidersomerset]

I feel we were talking about the age of consent a few days ago ?
I cannot remember the thread off hand.


Mary was 13 when angel Gabriel appeared before her. Please
also note that Mary was not subjected to a physical relation with God.

I am a very , very lapsed RC and from an early age I thought the Jesus
was an alien theory a possibility . Mary probably being abducted and implanted....


My question is: why did they choose such a young girl to be the mother of Christ?

Because generally life spans were much lower and puberty around 12 , 13 years
old you were considered a young adult in many cultures, and the age of consent
is still young in some countries , as I said I put a post on a recent thread about
the Vatican and Spain only raising the age around 2013.

[Bill Ryan]

:focus:

I can understand why the age of consent might be responsibly discussed (and anyone's welcome to start a new thread on this!). But that really is off-topic in this particular thread. THX :thumbsup:

[Innocent Warrior]

My question is: why did they choose such a young girl to be the mother of Christ? How come they didn't choose an older woman instead? Were they in a hurry? Why not wait until she was 18 years-old?

A disturbing concept for us folk in modern times but I don't think 13 would have been considered so young back in biblical times. In 1880 the age of consent was 12 here in Australia. In this table here (http://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/primary-sources/24), you can see the age of consent in most of the states in the US was just ten years old.

Update - Sorry Bill, your post wasn't there when I began composing this post, delete if you wish.

[betoobig]

:focus:

I can understand why the age of consent might be responsibly discussed (and anyone's welcome to start a new thread on this!). But that really is off-topic in this particular thread. THX :thumbsup:

Thank you so much

[boutreality]

C W Chanter's take on the Alt media as a whole is worthwhile, it's in the same vid.
-That one topic starts with one pundit then over following months every other pundit seems to pick up the same idea; as if there's an active "news cycle, which is not what the Alt Media seems to wants to known as pursuing.

Wilcock is a pundit- look at his track record: "The world's changing big-time in 2012"; "Blue Avians are going to help us"; "Rockefeller and Putin is the side we can trust."
My only exposure to him is through PA, I don't even check out threads devoted to his ideals, though I've heard (here) that over time he has taken in tens of thousands in donations to accomplish big dreamed big picture projects and has accomplished little to nothing with that money.
I'd like to see a background check run on that guy.

-Or Simon Parkes, there's thread here dedicated to his poorly executed promises to help people- many of those people gave him money.
Shortly after that thread started, Simon was on an Alt media radio show claiming the "environment on PA is toxic."

These behavior patterns deserve to be called into question.

[Daozen]

I suggest adopting some Rules of Engagement, otherwise this thread will turn into another Lynchmob Vs Apologists trainwreck.

1. Compile a list of questions for Zen Gardner on the details of the case, and send them to him by email. Make the questions respectful + and fair.
2. Ask if he would be prepared to sign a sworn affadavit, oath on the Bible, or take a Polygraph on the subject.
3. Ask if he'd be prepared to privately or publicly name the abusers that 'are stil running free.'

I have a feeling that he would answer, though I may be wrong.

I haven't read all the materials on the subject, but I read that Zen claimed:

1. He didn't take part in any of the abuse.
2. His children were removed from him in Brazil, and he had no money, so couldn't escape:


But why didn’t I grab my family and jump on the first bus out of there and blow the whistle on the whole sham? Another carefully planned obstacle was the fact that my children were scattered in other locations and of course no one had any money so that was another control tool and I was in the middle of Brazil. Still, it’s no excuse, just explaining the circumstances, as the system was tightly controlled.


The last stages of the official group were the very worst, where child abuse was taking place as a result of very deviant sexual “revelations” from the “Prophet”. So many were appalled and started planning their escapes, but many were caught in the snare and many innocent children, teens and young adults were abused. I was aware there were incidences and went after abuses in the area I was supervising. But I had no idea of the extent it was going on in top leadership and specialized “training centers”, the horrific details of which I later learned about like many others have in the documentaries and books covering detailed incidences which are available on line. Brace yourself, there’s some very nasty, tragic stuff.


To allay anyone’s questions the answer is no, I never participated in any form of child abuse, except being part of a system that was tolerating and even currying it at inner levels. That I own up to, as well as the fact that the training and hierarchical system had become regimented and extremely abusive as well.

These are the facts as claimed by Zen Gardner.

He has also claimed:


I didn’t fully escape until 1999 after many years
of trying to change the group from the inside because I felt I had to give it my best
shot before leaving, having invested so much of my heart and life in it and what I
thought it stood for during those many years and wanting to leave with a clear
conscience.


This could be true, it might not be. I know that not all the Jonestown cult members wanted to drink the koolaid, and had to be forced at gunpoint. I know some people join corrupt institutions with the intent of changing them or later blowing the whistle. Zen's apology may be sincere, it may not. So lets respect the situation, give him a chance to speak, and find out.

This is not an apology, nor a condemnation, just a request that the alt media adopt a 'decentralized due process'.

[Daozen]

.
... and has many of his facts quite wrong -- which he's never bothered to check with key sources, one of whom might be myself. He has my e-mail address, and about 9 months ago I invited him to ask me any questions he liked. He never once has. That says something.


Scuse my ignorance Bill, it's early in the morning, but I'm not sure what you mean exactly by "That says something".

I can see you might have a good point, and can see that someone could infer many things from Chandler's silence, but I wonder exactly what you are getting at. I'm kind of neutral re: Chanter, so am intrigued what you have discerned from his action, or inaction.

Hope that bumbling question makes sense...

[boutreality]

CW, on Simon Parkes, reports that he communicates some "special connection" to women and in many cases uses it to bed them?
I don't remember hearing that here, then again, I've avoided him and his info since I first heard about him.

If what CW says is true, that could be construed as sex under false pretense.
That conversation is already going in the "Our Experience with Simon Parkes" thread, -not sure if the sex allegations have been brought up yet.

-That's a good idea Daozen

[Callista]

Here is a rather lengthy but very well-written and thought-out open letter to Zen Gardner from Bernhard Guenther :

AN OPEN LETTER TO DON FERGUSON A.K.A. ZEN GARDNER

Over the past week I have received many messages from people asking me about Zen Gardner’s recent “confession”. He was a member of the Children of God (The Family) cult for 27 years, including being in leadership position.

I have kept quiet over the past week since the news broke and wanted to talk to Zen personally about it since I had some questions. I have “known” Zen since April this year. He liked my work, reposted some of my blogs on his site and I was on his “Now and Zen” show in May. We stayed in contact, changed a few Skype messages and had two Skype video chats. The last time I talked to him via Skype was when he was in Spain last month, hanging out with my friend Benny Wills (from Joy Camp) and others.

I was quite shocked when I first read his article “My Missing Years”. At first I was glad to see that he shared this hidden aspect of his personal life and opened up. It triggered empathy and compassion within me. However, as I was doing more research into the COG cult and also discovered why and how his “confession” actually came about, many things he talked about (and especially the way he handled it) didn’t add up. There was a lot of avoidance, white-washing and not addressing big questions that sit like multiple “elephants in the living room”.

At first I tried to connect with him via Skype, offering my support but also pointing out that I had questions and I felt his articles (especially the second one “A Few Replies”) were coming from a victim/avoidance/missionary stance, lacking sincere accountability and full disclosure. I also connected with Benny to talk about this situation since we both know (or knew) Zen personally (although I never met him in person). We both tried to confront him on some questions we had via Skype message and wanted to talk to him in person eye to eye via Skype. He dodged and avoided our questions and kept responding with “testimonials” of other people who support him during this time. He never made an effort to connect with us via Skype video.

This led me to write a long email to him, being very direct as I would be to any “friend” who’d be in the same situation. In my view good “friends” call each other out when needed to help each other grow. I was not interested in ego-stroking him and “showering” him will all kinds of New Age/Pop-spiritual lingo as I saw so many of his fans do in the comment section of his two articles. The lack of critical thinking and not spotting the obvious red flags by so many people was actually sad and shocking to see. However, I’m also not interested in a public “which hunt” and just screaming out “sick Pedophile” or “Sociopath” as I have seen some people do as well. I wanted to be direct but also supportive and help him to come fully “clean”.

to continue reading go to Bernhard's website https://veilofreality.com/2016/08/19/an-open-letter-to-don-ferguson-a-k-a-zen-gardner/

[Bill Ryan]

.
... and has many of his facts quite wrong -- which he's never bothered to check with key sources, one of whom might be myself. He has my e-mail address, and about 9 months ago I invited him to ask me any questions he liked. He never once has. That says something.


Scuse my ignorance Bill, it's early in the morning, but I'm not sure what you mean exactly by "That says something".

I can see you might have a good point, and can see that someone could infer many things from Chandler's silence, but I wonder exactly what you are getting at. I'm kind of neutral re: Chanter, so am intrigued what you have discerned from his action, or inaction.

Hope that bumbling question makes sense...

My remark was to point out that he's never once written to me to ask for any accurate and factual information about anything that he accepts at face value from others who have an agenda to criticize Avalon. He knows he can, but he never has.

The 'something' which that says is that despite his protestations, he's not sincerely interested in truth. (And he's not. :) )


* A note of clarification: CW is probably quite right about about Zen Gardner (although I don't have any facts at first hand). My comment was only about what he's added about Avalon, myself and David Icke, which I do know about. As such, CW is a knowing disinformationist (part truth, part fiction), and that can be stated accurately on record.

:focus:

[Callista]

Regarding Simon Parkes & Zen Gardner: Will Berlinghof, The Voice of Cosmic Awareness:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8a3abG5ND8

Published on 22 Aug 2016 (41mins)

Will Berlinghof, The Voice of Cosmic Awareness

How Impeccable is Your Own Garden?

Cosmic Awareness is considered by many to be the same Energy brought through by Edgar Cayce.

Assisted by Callista Summerfield-Berlinghof.

http://www.rainbowphoenix.com.au

[Cidersomerset]

Will Berlinghof, The Voice of Cosmic Awareness

I was smiling all the way thru this it was so synchronistic with me
today it was spooky . I am very aware of my own non - physical
which is connected to all of us......

My Lawn mower packed up a couple weeks ago and I went to argos
this morning and ordered a new one which arrived 10 mins before I
started listening to the vid and when he started about tidying your
garden I thought " Have you seen my front lawn ?" ..... I'l cut it soon....LOL

My new mower....https://images-eu.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41AvN6bQgRL._AC_UL160_SR160,160_.jpg

Also I was listening to a Davids Icke recent interview just before and he
was enphazing we are all infinite awareness experiencing this reality....

https://www.davidicke.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/OL_David-Icke-copy-800x380.jpg

David Icke on the Outer Limits 100th Show - Humanity’s Great Awakening
By David on 22 August 2016 GMT approx 1 hr long

http://www.outerlimitsradio.com/icke/

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So listening to cosmic awareness was very prophetic and his comments were
appropriate concerning Simon and Zen I thought. 'He who cast the first stone.'
Then he went onto say about the coming disclosures of political figures and I was
thinking Clinton ,Trump , Obama etc which cosmic awareness proceeded to name.
This also ties into what David says that 2016/17/18 are pivotal years...

http://www.outerlimitsradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/1406736478354.gif

[Citizen No2]

Bill Ryan wrote:


* A note of clarification: CW is probably quite right about about Zen Gardner (although I don't have any facts at first hand). My comment was only about what he's added about Avalon, myself and David Icke, which I do know about. As such, CW is a knowing disinformationist (part truth, part fiction), and that can be stated accurately on record.

Especially this: As such, CW is a knowing disinformationist

Are you able to expand on this any further Bill? I feel that this is a very, very important point and quite a bold statement (pun intended) to make. If you have evidence that someone is dis-informing intentionally, do you not have a duty to explain how and why.......... Not just to the members here, but to the Alt Media community as a whole, because this is coming around to the whole point of this thread. To expose those, and perform proper due diligence, that put themselves out there as a beacon of truth, but are, in reality, furthering their own agenda and stroking their own ego's.

Is it fair to all, that known information about potential dis-informers is kept to a select few behind the curtain? When we talk of honesty and openness, is that for all, or a select few? When you make statements like yours that I have hi-lighted but fail to expand further as to the reason why, is this not the same M/O that you have accused C W of?

I am just trying to make sense of everything that is going on at the moment. As you well know, I have some information on a controversial 'character' that has caused a stir on this very forum of late, and will be bringing it to light as soon as it cannot be refuted. In my mind this is of paramount importance to all in the Alt Media community, so that people have absolutely rock-steady information when deciding if this is the type of person they want to interact with, that there is a possibility that they may be (most likely) lied to. Are you of the same opinion Bill, that if you possess information that aids people in making their right choice then you have a moral duty to broadcast that information?

Although I have watched two or three of C W's youtube videos, and left comments on a couple of them, I am not a friend of his and have no vested interest in his channel....... Just to be clear.


R

[Citizen No2]

Callista,

that is a wonderful video you have posted, thank you. I can only hope to reach that level one day. I am aware of ego and aware that I allow ego to the fore more often than not....... This I need to work on.

May I ask Callista, and with absolute respect, how do we tally this when we are talking of the horrific subject of paedophilia? Should we look introspectively and turn the other cheek, do we let it pass.......... ?

Do we not have a duty to warn others of danger, especially when that danger is poised at societies weakest, i.e. children and the elderly. I struggle with this conundrum............ I could understand how this would work if all were at a heightened level of enlightenment, but then again, there would (should) be no paedophilia if all were suitably enlightened. I get the point that is made in your video of having an impeccable garden, and again, is something to strive for. But, this well known quote runs through my head:

"All Evil needs to prevail, is for good men to do nothing".

I guess I'm still entrenched in the super-dense, third dimension.


Kindest regards.

[Callista]

Dear Citizen No2, you bring up a very good point that many are pondering.

When you are made aware of a situation, it is sometimes required of you to take action. This is imperative if you are to bring truth to light. Brave people are standing up and exposing situations that need to come to the light in order to be cleared.

The problem comes in when we start to judge the people in the situation, and thereby putting the whole thing into a duality perspective. Then it becomes a 'he said, she said' tug of war which gets nowhere.

Also, remember Cosmic Awareness spoke of not making judgement against a person, but did not say do not take action if you know of a situation. Again this is an area that we will investigate deeper in our next discussion.

The video really only scratched the surface. There is a lot more to be discussed, and we are looking to do just that very soon. Posts like your's help us to know what direction to take in the next discussion and are very much appreciated.


much love

Callista

[boutreality]

Callista-
Is that Channeled information in their defense?
The brain operates in a specific range of frequencies, similar frequencies can be broadcast to obstruct its function and even make a person believe they are being spoken to.
-That episode of Conspiracy Theory with Jesse Ventura on HAARP gives a basic example how this works. Or,
-Check Omnisense's work (on PA) on reasons to doubt channeled information- he has shown a number of documentaries about covert electromagnetic manipulation and 'channeling' is but one example. (That's how I feel about all channeled info.)

"Cast the first stone" is a "muddy the waters" stance because Simon has positioned himself (been positioned) as a person to trust as a "guide" for people experiencing trouble in their lives/people that want to have a closer connection to an inside source of truth.
He has endeavored to make a living doing so.

I'm not looking for a witch hunt.
I agree with the one (apart from ZG specifically) salient point of this thread's beginning:
"What is the nature of the people bringing us these messages?" -"Why, once their information/past relations are exposed and they themselves are found implicit in fraudulent behaviors, are they still being listened to?"
These people, the ones expecting to make a living doing this, should be held to account for the validity of what they have to say and the effects it has on others.

Bill-
CW states, I believe in his Simon Parkes "Galactic Connection" video, regarding PA, he was "waiting for 'conversations to happen before he 'dealt' with PA"
Did you inquire as to what he meant by that?

[Citizen No2]

Here is the beginning of a post by Majorin, the first reply to the thread started by Bill re; The Anglo Saxon Mission, waaaaay back in 2010.


But, may I ask that you consider the following nothing more than a personal opinion on my part, and take it no more than that -- its a personal opinion, in which I'll also pose a few questions on my mind, and you may or may not have the time or even the inclination to answer, but I'd hope you do find time to read it, at least. So here goes.

Many people have always wondered about the "vetting" process for "whistleblowers" as part of the platform(s) that is Camelot/Avalon, and how, essentially, you and/or Kerry (I'm not asking you both, just yourself really) how you establish that the people relaying such information as this; on a wide variety of topics at that, are actually telling the truth? - it seems a silly question because the answer is somewhat obvious, in fact, and if I were in your place being asked this question, I'd probably say: "nobody can be 100% absolute about the validity of anyone's testimony, especially in a field known to be riddled with disinformants and disinformation, we listen to what people have to say, and then we can all come to our own conclusions based on our own intuition and independent investigative efforts, if even some of the information is valid, then its important to get it out in every way possible".


I guess , that in six years, we are still asking the same questions.

The silence is deafening.


R

[Bill Ryan]

Here is the beginning of a post by Majorin, the first reply to the thread started by Bill re; The Anglo Saxon Mission, waaaaay back in 2010.


But, may I ask that you consider the following nothing more than a personal opinion on my part, and take it no more than that -- its a personal opinion, in which I'll also pose a few questions on my mind, and you may or may not have the time or even the inclination to answer, but I'd hope you do find time to read it, at least. So here goes.

Many people have always wondered about the "vetting" process for "whistleblowers" as part of the platform(s) that is Camelot/Avalon, and how, essentially, you and/or Kerry (I'm not asking you both, just yourself really) how you establish that the people relaying such information as this; on a wide variety of topics at that, are actually telling the truth? - it seems a silly question because the answer is somewhat obvious, in fact, and if I were in your place being asked this question, I'd probably say: "nobody can be 100% absolute about the validity of anyone's testimony, especially in a field known to be riddled with disinformants and disinformation, we listen to what people have to say, and then we can all come to our own conclusions based on our own intuition and independent investigative efforts, if even some of the information is valid, then its important to get it out in every way possible".I guess , that in six years, we are still asking the same questions.

The silence is deafening.


R

The answer is one I'd expect everyone here to understand -- especially after six years. :)

We all (by and large, with some clear exceptions) simply do the best we can. Everyone does, who has integrity.

We're not the NSA, we don't have mail- and phone-tapping facilities, and we don't have Private Investigators on call. So we have to use our best judgment when someone comes to us and says: "Hey, I have a story." (That's a little glib. The messages we get of that nature are very often way more complex than that. Personally, I reject maybe 95% of them, and they never see the light of day in any form.)

It's always a judgment call, and different personalities make different judgments, for different reasons. Most people reading this will be well aware that Kerry Cassidy and I did not always agree on the credibility of witnesses, by any means. It was to a large degree disagreements about witness credibility that split Camelot, in the end.

It's hard (and rather unfair) to talk about this in general terms. Sometimes, we never met the person claiming to have had important experiences or information, at all, and everything was done remotely. (Maybe, even, a published interview, as in the case of Peter Levenda. I've never met him personally, at all.) On other occasions, we got to know a witness really, really well, over long periods of time, for literally many hundreds of hours, on and off-record, in person, as in the case of Henry Deacon.

If you'd like to ask more specific questions about specific witnesses -- what I knew, what I felt I knew, and the judgments I personally made, and why -- then please do. But your post here sounded like a generalized, unsubstantiated criticism of a lot of well-intentioned (and sometimes dangerous) work, and I'd suggest it was of very limited value.

In fact, it was actually a kind of subtle smear. You know this, and it was neither kind, nor appreciated. I'd have rather more respect if you came out with your own real name, your own real photo, and your own real e-mail address. Maybe, even, the real name of your own real dog. :)

And, of course, if you did some real interviews with (maybe) real witnesses. Then, as they say, walk a mile (or even a few hundred feet) in the shoes of people who are trying to do real work for the benefit of others.

We take the bullets... not you.

:focus:

[boutreality]

Bill-

I recognize the lack of resources needed to appropriately check these sources. I appreciate the unneeded though levity providing "We're not the NSA..." part of your post.

If anything you've started outlining the need for people like CW in the Alt media scene.
Maybe Alt Media doesn't need him specifically, but it could use with some checks and balances, and some measure taken when allegations like these arise.
-Measures ranging from investigations to the adoption of a "Nevermind that guy anymore" outlook.

And I'll repat the question, asking it to anyone as I'm sure Bill is abusy man.

Does anyone know what CW meant when he said, I believe in the "Simon Parkes Galactic connection vid" he was "Waiting for conversation to be had before he "addressed" PA?

"Blame it on the web but the spider's your problem now." "-Blame it on the Tetons" by Modest Mouse

[Citizen No2]

Not a smear Bill......... More goading, and sad that I had to resort to that.

I asked a couple of questions in a post on the previous page, which had, I believed, a couple of valid points in relation to your statement about C W Chanter, points that I feel, if answered, have value in the wider issue of due diligence, and surely that must benefit everyone.......... What I am seeing is a mode of behaviour that mirrors the behaviour that criticisms are being levelled at. I am not looking for a fight or confrontation, just explanations and possible answers.

You know my real name, you have my real e-mail. I doubt a picture of my dog would be of interest...... I could be wrong.

Whether you respect me or not is a moot point. If I where to 'come out' with my name, picture, email and dog, would you answer my legitimate questions?

If you feel my post above was a smear, then I apologise for that was not my intention...... More frustration I suppose.


We take the bullets... not you.

Sorry Bill but I have to disagree with you on that one. Have you been held, as a direct result, of something spoken about in private on here, for 7 days and 8 nights under 24hr guard in a hospital (not a mental hospital)? Have you received an Osman warning from MI5? Have you been violated, the best way I can describe it, during a medical procedure, poking around inside me looking for something, during my being held? I well know about taking bullets thank you. Over this last ten years I now have a pretty good idea of what you can talk about without repercussions, and what you can't..... ergo, I don't feel the need to carry-out interviews.

I, as I'm sure like all here, value the work you did in bringing to light the information that you did with your work with Camelot, to me, some of it, holds great value. I am in no way belittling that, and again, apologise if you feel that I am somehow smearing you. As I stated, that was not my intent. I am however, asking if you could explain further your comment regarding C W Chanter and him being, in your opinion, knowingly dis-informing. That is all.

boutreality:


Does anyone know what CW meant when he said, I believe in the "Simon Parkes Galactic connection vid" he was "Waiting for conversation to be had before he "addressed" PA?

"Blame it on the web but the spider's your problem now." "-Blame it on the Tetons" by Modest Mouse

I haven't seen all of that vid so can't offer any insights on that one.

R

[betoobig]

i trust we can start focusing in forgiveness and compassion, this(meaning Zen´s issue) is not even the tip of the iceberg for us to shallow, and you know it.
Much love

[Agape]

In risk of coming out as little light headed here .. sometimes, speaking the truth does not benefit others a lot but the person himself . At least so it seems to me , in this case .. something he needed to get off his chest .

Obviously ..again.. and quote your impeccable determination to find the truth , vis above , guess what ?
Does anyone have any means to figure out right now, as we talk , if this person called Don Fergusson exists ( ok, he does ) and spent 27 years in the COG and what did he do there , exactly ?

Hypothetical question , I presume but sometimes, it may be relevant . What if he was somewhere else , working for the NSA ? Would you believe him this time or the other time ?
Who cares , right ?

So lets presume he's some kind of honest person and held this information within for a decade and had to let it out because someone or something prompted him to share or had to , who benefits .
The trick we all may be stumbling upon so often with these types of 'revelations' is that we're trying to learn something , and benefit at all costs but it does not work .
It's only betraying your self .

COG and many other dangerous sects were around for long time . It may be very important topic to discuss but in fact, the topic itself is so sensitive and no ones favourite so I'm certainly rather avoiding it .

His past is his past and he will have to deal with it , whatever it means.

I don't know much about Zen Gardner and what type of followers and students he gathered but if they believed him before and left now they are hardly good friends and 'people of integrity' either .
It more looks like one of those staged internet shows to me .

As with many others I've seen around , talking a lot .. to everything, world politics to philosophy to science to religions , there are people who consider themselves 'all knowing' and experts in everything and that's a sign of total lack of integrity for me ..because , guess what , these days , every subject in itself is so vast that to learn and know something for real you have to go deep and be who you are and stop caring if people can benefit immediately or not instead being 'everything at the same time' , a witness, a researcher, a teacher , a victim , founder of new religion and much more ..


Enough , right :star: But maybe he wants to prompt an investigation to that cult really and that would be a worthy cause , in my opinion .



:Angel:

[Cidersomerset]

I had a scan of of google and there was only this article calling out
everyone to comment on the situation

August 22, 2016
https://aplanetruth.info/2016/08/22/hey-icke-rense-acivist-post-et-al-why-no-covering-of-the-outing-of-pedo-leader-zen-gardner/

What is the rush ? We all know it now we can look at Zen's future work
with this insight . I suggest calm down and pick this up as more info
comes out. As far as I'm aware he has not committed a crime , poor
judgement with thousands of others back then. People have and still
are attracted to cults over the world. If he is directly or indirectly
responsible for abuse he has to live with it . If he is not then the witch
hunt maybe premature . We can only wait and see how it develops,
falling out with each other is not going to help the situation....

[Atlas]

"Blame it on the web but the spider's your problem now." "-Blame it on the Tetons" by Modest Mouse
Alright, try this one: [warning harsh content] http://psychohistory.com/books/the-origins-of-war-in-child-abuse/chapter-7-child-abuse-homicide-and-raids-in-tribes/ and let me know what can we do to put Zen Gardner in jail.

[Bill Ryan]

I am however, asking if you could explain further your comment regarding C W Chanter and him being, in your opinion, knowingly dis-informing. That is all.



Okay, you did ask for it (twice). But the pettiness, irrelevance and unintelligence is staggering. Be warned! :)

Here, on full record, is an e-mail reply I sent to CW Chanter about an hour ago. Nothing's been changed.

Then, :focus: ... please.






CW:

1) I'll reply to you in more depth when you provide full details about the lie (and it was a lie, meaning a statement that was knowingly and maliciously invented) that I "had stolen something from Christine when she was in the shower".



(OMG. Insert facepalm here. The NWO is destroying the human race and all our freedoms, and you pick that to talk about. What does that say about your focus and interest?)
Listen very, very carefully. That never happened. Nothing LIKE that ever happened. I never stole anything from Christine, ever. I never would, never could, and it doesn't even make any sense. (What did I steal? Her lipstick? Her clothes? Her cookies?)

Be intelligent. You're being used, here.

2) Re Corey: I have on full, detailed, written record the correspondence I had with him at the time re the publication of his interview, before it was released. He was excited and enthusiastic -- and was consulted fully. Of course he was. I'd never release an interview without the full okay of the person concerned.

Whoever told you the opposite is lying. Christine was there the whole time, and knows exactly what happened.

Again, to repeat: I have this in writing, from Corey. I'll forward that to you if you like, and you can in turn publish it or forward it to anyone you choose. It's on another computer which I will be able to access in a few days' time. Do you think I'd be saying this if it wasn't true? This e-mail here is on record. Send it to anyone, as long as it's unedited and in full.

Here's a very, very strong recommendation: always check your facts before making statements that do, or can, cause damage to others.

I do, absolutely, want a clear reply from you regarding the very, very silly 'shower' thing. I want you to tell me who else you told (because you hardly kept it to yourself!), and, importantly, who told it to you. If it was a 'confidence', you should never have shared that kind of silly gossip with anyone. At least, check things with me first that are clearly attempted smears. You can check ANYTHING with me. I'm pretty easy to find.

You're not doing very much to earn the respect of anyone out there. In fact, consciously or otherwise, you're really doing quite a lot of harm.

You're a disinformationist because what you say and write is part truth, part falsehood. That's what disinformation is. And you're 'knowing', because you are absolutely well-aware that you do not check your facts.

You may, somewhere in there, mean well. But if so, you're totally being used by others for agendas of their own. Please wake up and fully realize that. One doesn't have to be Sherlock Holmes to figure it out. And you're probably a lot brighter than you present yourself as being. :)

Re Zen Gardner, you're probably right, and re Simon Parkes, I know you are. Re David Icke, you should be ashamed. His hands are crippled with arthritis, and he can hardly hold a pen -- let alone shake hands normally.

Get back to me, and please answer my questions in full. Thanks. And finally, please cut the 'Mr Ryan' crap. You have to realize you come over as insincere and fawning. -- Bill

Once more... :focus:. This thread is about far more important things. Really.

[Cidersomerset]

Still looking.......

http://www.zengardner.com/wp-content/uploads/logo-top1.png

Biggi’s Perspective

By Zen Gardner -
22/08/2016

There has been a ****storm of note akin to the witch hunt of the middle ages raging on the
Zen Gardner issue. I have seen a lot of people comment on it with comments ranging from
just plain disbelieve to outright name calling online. People have erased Zen’s archives from
their sites without even speaking to him. I have seen it all come past. And I know for a fact
that 99.9% of these people a) Don’t know Zen personally and are only copying the rest of
public opinion like a herd of sheep watching the latest episode of big brother and b) haven’t
contacted Zen to get his side of the story.

Read more....

http://www.zengardner.com/biggis-perspective/

[music]

My wife read me a very long blog post on the whole Zen Gardener-gate affair by someone who had had a few articles posted on ZGs site, and had skyped with him twice yet was portraying himself as a true friend concerned for ZGs soul. What I got from the extended ramblings of a person who obviously very much likes the sound of his own voice was that this person is so obviously not ‘clear’. So, a lengthy criticism of one person by another person showing all the same psychological flaws he is accusing the first person of. An undercurrent of ‘fan’ poaching (hence unenlightened agenda) was plainly there for all to see, a jockeying for guru status, traffic generated to websites, we all know the sort of thing – the very antithesis of enlightened function.

The fact that Zen Gardener calls himself that is not because he is hiding, but because like many people, when he sought to reinvent himself, a name change was logical. The concept of the Zen Garden may be unknown to a few here; he chose the name based on that is my assumption.

I have no idea whether Zen Gardener knowingly participated in child abuse. I have no idea what he knew or suspected. I have no idea about his departure from the cult, the thought processes that led to it, the soul searching (or otherwise), the emotional or psychological spurs and effects.

I have no idea, and neither does anyone else here.

Zen Gardener is not communicating? So what, this is not a sign of guilt, merely of a character that needs refinement. As do the characters of us all. By all means seek the truth, but mobilising the shadow and taking a group dynamic down to the lowest common denominator is never, ever productive. And let’s not mince words, when we write in vitriol, when we accuse and abuse, what we are doing is hiding from our own repressed shadow elements. We should try to resist the witch hunt, rather see our desire for one as indication that we have internal work to do.

Judge not lest ye be judged.

Try to give the guy time to overcome his fear, shock, and disorientation, gather his thoughts, search his soul, and respond. We are all human, so we are all fallible; we have all sinned in some shape or form; we would all like to think that after periods of growth and clarity that leave us more enlightened, and inch us closer to our true nature of loving perfection, that others will understand, and forgive us any transgressions over which we are honestly repentant, and for which we have made some kind of amends.

[boutreality]

Atlas, I'm not sure ZG qualifies for charges.
The crime was a fixture of the closed culture that was the Children of God, later called The Family.
Those facts have yet to be sorted, the line of complicity yet to be drawn.

I'm not sure what more useful comments can be made regarding that.
I know I won't traffic his site (not that I ever did) - I believe I posted there once or twice long ago.

I'm still here because of the concept of harmful fraudulent personalities in the Alt Media.

In the Simon Parkes' case- he acted in a way that throttles the line between "unlicensed therapist" and (apparently, in some case) unethical behavior with clients- not the least of which is sex under false pretense, if CW can back those claims.
He started a somewhat cult-like following; he collects (has collected ) money for giving people what he claims they 'need' - counseling; "soul-readings" etc.
That is disturbing and it should be addressed.

[Flash]

I think pedophilia has to be denounced and stopped and those who have been aware of it and did not stop it shall be questioned, no doubts about that.

However, I must say that CW Chander gives me the creep as well. His eyes are not forthright, his movements do not fit with the words, something is off with him.

Also, he has sanpaku eyes, all along the video, very noticeable (I rarely have seen people in which it was so noticeable as with him). Which gives me the creep further.

In non verbal langiuage, Sanpaku eyes are very significant. Usually, only one eye is sanpaku, and will show heavy mental/physical tiredness if it is the right eye of the person, or emotional imbalance if it is the left eye. However, when it is both eyes as in CW Chander, it is quite surprising because not frequent. It shows psychic imbalance usually.

I am happy he found out about some potential pedophilia cases, but I would not trust him either.

Some known people who had sanpaku eye (one or two):

John F. Kennedy[5]
Abraham Lincoln
Adolf Hitler
Sal Mineo[6]
Marilyn Monroe[5]
Robert Pattinson[5]
Sylvester Stallone[6]
Natalie Wood[6]
Osama bin Laden
Yitzhak Rabin
Jill Dando
Adi Da
Salvador Dalí
Roy Cohn
Ted Bundy
Omar Mateen
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/Omar_Mateen.jpg
Omar Mateen pic

Here is an extract of the Chinese knowing about Sanpaku eyes, which are similar to those found in non verbal language studies:


Sanpaku gan (三白眼?) or Sanpaku (三白?) is a Japanese term meaning “three whites,” which originated from a Chinese term[citation needed]. It is generally referred to in English as "sanpaku eyes" and refers to eyes in which the white space above or below the iris is visible.

According to Chinese medical face reading, when the white part of the eye, known as the sclera, is visible beneath the iris, it represents physical imbalance in the body and is claimed to be present in alcoholics, drug addicts and people who over-consume sugar or grain. Conversely, when the upper sclera is visible it is said to be an indication of mental imbalance in people such as psychotics, murderers, and anyone rageful. Stress and fatigue may also be a cause.[1] In either condition, it is believed that these people attract accidents and violence.

In August 1963, macrobiotic-diet leader George Ohsawa predicted that President John F. Kennedy would experience great danger because of his sanpaku condition.[2][3]

In 1965 Ohsawa, assisted by William Dufty, wrote You Are All Sanpaku which gave this perspective on the condition:
For thousands of years, people of the Far East have been looking into each other's eyes for signs of this dreaded condition. Any sign of sanpaku meant that a man's entire system — physical, physiological and spiritual — was out of balance. He had committed sins against the order of the universe and he was therefore sick, unhappy, insane, what the West has come to call "accident prone". The condition of sanpaku is a warning, a sign from nature, that one's life is threatened by an early and tragic end.[4]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanpaku




I held off for a few days to see if anyone else would pick-up on this, evidently not. This is an issue that has troubled me for sometime, troubled me enough to take some time-out, leave my home, visit some countries and places and meet some very interesting people. I found great comfort that there is a ground-swell taking place of like-minded individuals, individuals that have had enough of being lied to, of being deceived and being presented with ever more fanciful stories that are served-up without so much as basic due diligence.

I shall start this off with an introduction........C W Chanter. You can watch his channel here:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzEDwsA6ooejNKnEfi0Vqrg/videos

I do not agree with C W Chanter's stance on a lot of what he has to say, but then again, if I did that would be pretty weird.

What I do like about C W is that he will not take things that are reported in Alt Media at face value without checking facts and proper due diligence. I assume his work as an attorney-at-law stands him in good steed in this respect.

My second introduction is this gentleman, Mr. Phil Stone. He runs this blog, readable here:
http://www.philosophers-stone.co.uk

Again, a man that likes to dig a little deeper, who likes to verify and fact-check and who has posted some very disturbing findings regarding.............. Zen Gardner.


Zen Gardner has been exposed as a long-time leader in the child-abusing cult, The Children of God, formerly The Family. The details are disgusting, as one would expect. You can read about the how's and why's here:

http://www.philosophers-stone.co.uk/?p=13437

And watch this expose by C W Chanter here:

aPv3vOoFem0


In the expose above, another 'whistleblower' exposed is Bill Wood, real name William Brockbrader and a convicted paedophile and fantasist (http://wtkr.com/2012/05/31/newschannel-3-investigation-man-claims-to-be-navy-seal-with-psychic-abilities/), a Project Camelot favourite. I must state here that in the expose, C W Chanter links to David Icke, Kerry Cassidy and Bill Ryan, Mel C and the CCN. I personally find that a bit harsh as in these internet days, guilty-by-association can be only a click away, so on that point I do not totally agree with C W Chanter.......... BUT, it does raise a very important question about due diligence.

If you are presenting to the World a whistleblower with an outrageously fantastical story, stories so mind-blowing that they have the potential to shift peoples paradigms, then does the responsibility to check, check and check again not fall into your lap? It is an interesting question.

I have it on very good authority that this is only the start, that the spotlight of truth is about to shine bright upon some of those that have sought to elevate themselves as Truth Warriors. I also believe that a couple of Project Camelot's big hitter whistleblower's have been trying to hide damaging information regarding their past involvement with some sick s**t........... And also a man that has appeared on more than a few threads here recently. Watch this space, as they say.

This has the potential to be the single most damaging episode in the Alt Media scene. When we look back to see who to blame for the discrediting of Alt Media, we need only to look in the mirror. In our thirst for ever more fanciful information, nobody stopped to check the source of the water. I am of the opinion that this is what is needed, it is an essential cleansing of the polluted information sphere, but this phase will be more damaging in the interim than any Government psy-op.

This is about to get very messy and there will be some ugly, and disturbing, fallout.



R

[boutreality]

Citzen No 2-
Re: What CW says about "addressing" PA is in the linked video. I believe I set it to start about 10-20 seconds before the statement. He cusses a decent amount -over the course of the whole video- I find his demeanor entertaining but I am certain it is not for all.

https://youtu.be/ghXDKW-Yxu0?t=36m15s

Flash-
That is an interesting find! I never knew there was a term for that or a condition associated with it. I wouldn't be surprised to find out he's a regular pot smoker (in the least); that his diet is high in grain and sugar- and from the Chinese source you cite, that may be the cause. He is an admitted past member of Cults -Hare Krisna; Adi Da; and Scientology -this may account for psychic imbalances.
Whatever it is, the notion of checking into people who are positioned as "leaders" in the Alt Community is valuable, - he's one person doing that.
Are there any others?

[Atlas]

[...] Marilyn Monroe [...]
Marilyn Monroe (Can't take my eyes off you)
www.youtube.com/watch? v=wdBi9JWlkrY [dead link]

[Flash]

In this video, Marilyn's sanpaku eyes are not quite obvious. Here in this pic below, they are more obvious. To observe Sanpaku eye, the person has to look straight at you or straight in the camera lens, otherwise just looking up or down will show your sclera at the bottom or top of your eye, which is normal.

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/16/e0/72/16e072d402de036353f61b3e86b11382.jpg

another article on this here http://www.listal.com/list/sanpaku-eyes

http://i35.servimg.com/u/f35/19/26/50/57/image11.jpg

When in both eyes, it is usually related to heavy psychological/emotional/psychic trauma in the past and shows remaining imbalances. Monroe having had a schizophrenic mother and having had to care for herself very early would explain this.

What were the trauma in Chander's past and how is his actual balance? This is truly my question. Now, I may be wrong, who knows, but knowing what I know, I would question gently with compassion anyone with sanpaku eyes.



[...] Marilyn Monroe [...]
Marilyn Monroe (Can't take my eyes off you)
wdBi9JWlkrY

[Cristian]

I'll reply to you in more depth when you provide full details about the lie (and it was a lie, meaning a statement that was knowingly and maliciously invented) that I [I]"had stolen something from Christine when she was in the shower".

Funny :P

Asked Christine - while she is baking a pie - what was stolen from her when she was in the shower.

She was like laughing her ass off.

Nothing was stolen from her .

She is a known cookie monster . And if Bill ate one of her cookies while she was in the shower ...he's damned for eternity :P

http://static1.squarespace.com/static/54c95d06e4b04d8d26f97dde/t/570d4048e707ebd28d303f32/1460486224633/

[Citizen No2]

Phhhheewww........... That was painful, to get to that point.



1) I'll reply to you in more depth when you provide full details about the lie (and it was a lie, meaning a statement that was knowingly and maliciously invented) that I "had stolen something from Christine when she was in the shower".
(OMG. Insert facepalm here. The NWO is destroying the human race and all our freedoms, and you pick that to talk about. What does that say about your focus and interest?)
Listen very, very carefully. That never happened. Nothing LIKE that ever happened. I never stole anything from Christine, ever. I never would, never could, and it doesn't even make any sense. (What did I steal? Her lipstick? Her clothes? Her cookies?)

Be intelligent. You're being used, here.

2) Re Corey: I have on full, detailed, written record the correspondence I had with him at the time re the publication of his interview, before it was released. He was excited and enthusiastic -- and was consulted fully. Of course he was. I'd never release an interview without the full okay of the person concerned.

Whoever told you the opposite is lying. Christine was there the whole time, and knows exactly what happened.

Again, to repeat: I have this in writing, from Corey. I'll forward that to you if you like, and you can in turn publish it or forward it to anyone you choose. It's on another computer which I will be able to access in a few days' time. Do you think I'd be saying this if it wasn't true? This e-mail here is on record. Send it to anyone, as long as it's unedited and in full.

Here's a very, very strong recommendation: always check your facts before making statements that do, or can, cause damage to others.

I do, absolutely, want a clear reply from you regarding the very, very silly 'shower' thing. I want you to tell me who else you told (because you hardly kept it to yourself!), and, importantly, who told it to you. If it was a 'confidence', you should never have shared that kind of silly gossip with anyone. At least, check things with me first that are clearly attempted smears. You can check ANYTHING with me. I'm pretty easy to find.

You're not doing very much to earn the respect of anyone out there. In fact, consciously or otherwise, you're really doing quite a lot of harm.

You're a disinformationist because what you say and write is part truth, part falsehood. That's what disinformation is. And you're 'knowing', because you are absolutely well-aware that you do not check your facts.

You may, somewhere in there, mean well. But if so, you're totally being used by others for agendas of their own. Please wake up and fully realize that. One doesn't have to be Sherlock Holmes to figure it out. And you're probably a lot brighter than you present yourself as being.

Re Zen Gardner, you're probably right, and re Simon Parkes, I know you are. Re David Icke, you should be ashamed. His hands are crippled with arthritis, and he can hardly hold a pen -- let alone shake hands normally.

Get back to me, and please answer my questions in full. Thanks. And finally, please cut the 'Mr Ryan' crap. You have to realize you come over as insincere and fawning. -- Bill

OK, thank-you for that insight Bill. I guess, by the look of your email to him, that you are talking about lies and tittle-tattle gossip.......... Can't be any fun to descend to such a level.

As far as keeping this thread on-topic, the title is: Zen Gardner Exposed & Spotlight on Alt Media, so I think this discussion is still within the premise of the thread. You may think it a distraction but I think that this is a very important dialogue to have.............. tIt may also warrant consideration that a Sticky thread be started, for the benefit of all, that names and explains those putting themselves 'out-there' as something other than what they would have people believe? Maybe with Mod approval before posts are publicised to a wider audience? It may hold some value for people new and old in the community, and it may help in people making a more informed choice in who they decide to listen to and help in avoiding that horrible feeling when you come to the realisation that you have been lied to.


R

[boutreality]

-Perhaps that was the conversation CW "had to have" before he addresses some info re: who he says is responsible for Simon Parkes' introduction to the Alt Media scene?
Or maybe he's blowing smoke trying to goad PA/Bill/Kerry?
Anyway, it would appear this ball is in his court.

Decent idea on the sticky thread CNo2.

[Cidersomerset]

Quote Posted by Flash (here)
[...] Marilyn Monroe [...]
Marilyn Monroe (Can't take my eyes off you)
www.youtube.com/watch? v=wdBi9JWlkrY [dead link]

Not sure if this is what you are after the above link led me to
an interesting political link...https://www.youtube.com/


uOI_cOHBu78

[Cidersomerset]

There are frequent squabbling and attacks in the alt media some set up by
government trolls . But not all , Mike and Ritchie talk about it in his interview......

Michael Rivero On Hillary's Emails & The US Medias Campaign To Get Her Elected.
s0cXg7qgDpQ

=============================================

This dispute has been going on for a while......


Meet 'David Hardy' - or is it 'Baxter Dmitry' ... Sean Adl-Tabatabai's clickbait
specialist at Yournewswire who writes libellous attacks on David Icke

By David on 23 August 2016 GMT

https://www.davidicke.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/download-2-2.png
Does Adl-Tabatabai’s friend David Hardy know that his picture is being used as
‘Baxter Dmitry’? There is no confirmation either way yet because he has not
replied to questions sent to his Facebook page, but what is for sure is that
‘Baxter Dmitry’ has had two completely different people posted as his image.
Can we have an explanation Mr Adl-Tabatabai?

Sean Adl-Tabatabai of Yournewswire.com blocks Richie Allen on Twitter immediately
after he was sent this question

By David on 23 August 2016 GMT


So who IS ‘Baxter Dmitry’, Adl-Tabatabai’s clickbait specialist at Yournewswire who
writes malicious and libellous attacks on David Icke?
https://www.davidicke.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/download-3-3.png
https://www.davidicke.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/download-1-4.png

Why are Sean Adl-Tabatabai and Yournewswire.com so untouchable on Facebook?

Radio show host Richie Allen is banned from Facebook for 30 days for re-posting
my mild response to an outrageously libellous attack by the website run by the
bitter and resentful former webmaster at Davidicke.com, Sean Adl-Tabatabai, and
now someone posting the simple fact that Richie is banned and cannot respond to
messages has their post deleted.

This is the second time that Richie has been banned for 30 days for re-posting my
response to an outrageous and ludicrous article at Sean Adl-Tabatabai’s clickbait
site, Yournewswire.com.

WTF is going on here?
https://www.davidicke.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/download-5.jpg

https://www.davidicke.com/headlines

[boutreality]

(At the time of writing this Cindersomerset's post was not up yet- thank you for returning us to the spirit of this thread; apparently we were both moved to get this back on topic at about the same time.)

Yeah, the eye thing, got it. I admit I stared at my eyes a few of the last several times I've seen myself in the mirror, and caught myself today and laughed- no white above or below the iris.

So... as far as back to topic, what about the moneys donated to Wilcock and those that feel burned for lack of promised results? I don't know what those results were, but I have read a few PA member posts saying they felt scammed by him.

And how about Frank Joseph? A couple of months back a thread was started here about a new book by him regarding "Our" Dolphin Ancestors. I remembered the name from somewhere, and I didn't hear it mentioned in a good light, so I looked him up.

Sure enough, he was a Nazi "leader" (post WW2 Nazi group- I guess that's what neo-nazi means.) He had been convicted of sexually assaulting a boy. Check the thread here:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?90161-Frank-Joseph-Our-Dolphin-Ancestors

-Or here's a snippet of what I found and posted there:

From wwww.jasoncolavito.com "Fringe History's Frank Joseph Problem":

"Joseph, formerly known as Frank Collin, became infamous in the 1970s as the leader of an American Nazi Party, in which capacity he was involved in the Supreme Court case National Socialist Party of America v. Village of Skokie 432 U.S. 43 (1977), which established the right of Nazis to march and display swastika emblems. After his Jewish heritage came to light (his father was a Holocaust survivor), Collin at first denied the claims but remained head of the National Socialist Party of America until his arrest on child sex charges. Nevertheless, Joseph continues to promote a view of history that places a white master race in a position of prehistoric global domination and power, albeit now with Jews included among the white peoples who once ruled the Americas. Because this ancient white master race reflects a central tenet of his early Nazi beliefs, it would appear to be extremely relevant to understanding his ideas and point of view, at least as much as David Duke’s former position as a Grand Wizard in the Ku Klux Klan remains forever affixed to any discussion of his views on race and Jews."

The contention that hasn't been widely named, that there is a complacency afoot when these things comes to light, is evident.

A few replies were "maybe that's a different Frank Joseph"
Replies were, "Lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater." I was accused of impugning people's beliefs. I admit I did respond in a flippant tone; we got through it.
I'm not accusing anyone on that thread of a thing. I'm not calling for a witch for Frank Joseph's head.

If you believe Dolphins to be sacred, I'm happy for you- that you have source of divine inspiration that is so tangible is great! -That's not the issue.

How about we have someone write a book on that topic isn't an ex-Nazi leader convicted of sexual abuse?

PA members and frequent visitors are certainly a section of these people's income generating demographic. How about we boycott their works after things like this (proven allegations) come to light?

I'm not saying they "Have no right to make living."
However if we are being honest with ourselves, if we, as a "community," seek to help others, how is that being done if disingenuous characters taking advantage of a section of this subculture that need/want to be told how things work have this community's support?
Let those types of people make a living elsewhere.

The Alt Community should not be known as a haven for con men and frauds that, once they have positioned themselves/been positioned as Alt Media Fixtures/Leaders, are given a free pass on the measure of their character.

[Daozen]

I'm not saying they "Have no right to make living."
However if we are being honest with ourselves, if we, as a "community," seek to help others, how is that being done if disingenuous characters taking advantage of a section of this subculture that need/want to be told how things work are supported by this community?
Let-those types of people make a living elsewhere.

The Alt Community should not be known as a haven for con men and frauds that, once they have positioned themselves/been positioned Alt Media Fixtures/Leaders, are given a free pass on the measure of their character.

"They" saw that an awakening was coming, and they positioned themselves as our leaders. Half of them predict doom every month, the other half spew useless pseudo-spiritual platitudes. Being caught in the middle is probably what's known as 'cognitive dissonance.' The purging process is well underway, I say let it continue. They are all attacking each other right now, that'll continue for a year or so, maybe longer.

Ultimately, people made a free will choice to click on their videos and go to their events. We all fell for some of their lies at some point. While I agree 100% that predators should be outed... if you believe their stories, you made a choice to turn away from hard work and take the easy path. In mythology, Lucifer offers the easy road.

The path out -in my view- is to focus on real acheivable effects and industries, like programming, ethical finance, longevity, organic nutrition, earthships, 3D printing, whatever...

I hope the exposing process continues. But I won't let it consume too much of my energy. I don't want to spend years of my life fighting tar-babies and shadows.

[boutreality]

Daozen,

Agreed, taking the time to highlight these few that I've come across is my small contribution toward the outing process. This in no way compromises dedication to my discipline.

BTW the recently posted Farrell interview ties well into the science side of my NAZIS/NWO/NEW AGE thread, if interested, I just posted to highlight how it ties in:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?92604-NAZIS-NWO-the-NEW-AGE

The outing of charlatans in the Alt Media is a facet of the overall progress against those factions (IMO)

[boutreality]

To anyone interested, CW has posted a reply video, linked below. The first 32m is a clean, fair minded assessment and, as he says, "In the end people will side with Bill (Ryan) or with me," and something like "that's inevitable."
After about 32m he gets into his editorial, which is spoken from the same polarizing character I happen to enjoy.

I still hold that he raises a valid point re: questioning the backgrounds of Alt Media personalities and the source of its memes.
https://youtu.be/2ybxeGBtVw4

BTW Bill Wood (interviewed by Kerry; spoken of on PA) is a pedophile, there is no statutory consideration when the age difference is that large and the girl is 12. Here's a link to an overview of the him and the incident in question:
https://youtu.be/W-BtUByJvRE

[Innocent Warrior]

"In the end people will side with Bill or with me,"

Bill who, Bill Ryan? That man has an overly inflated sense of self importance. NOBODY dictates what my choices are. Has he taken Bill up on his offer, has he bothered to find out all about how and why that situation stands as it is? If he hasn't then it is he who hasn't done his due diligence.

[boutreality]

I understand your opinion of CW, it is not mine.
I'm not sure I even care about details of the tiff between Bill Ryan and CW.
I was just relating that a response video by CW has been posted.

I did clarify my previous post.
Thanks

[Innocent Warrior]

I understand your opinion of CW, it is not mine.
I'm not sure I even care about details of the tiff between Bill Ryan and CW.
I was just relating that a response video by CW has been posted.

I did clarify my previous post.
Thanks

Cheers for the clarification. I skipped through to see if he has contacted Bill and it does look as though he has at least done that this time, will take it back to the start and watch it.

[Soda]

To anyone interested, CW has posted a reply video, linked below. The first 32m is a clean, fair minded assessment and, as he says, "In the end people will side with Bill (Ryan) or with me," and something like "that's inevitable."
After about 32m he gets into his editorial, which is spoken from the same polarizing character I happen to enjoy.

I still hold that he raises a valid point re: questioning the backgrounds of Alt Media personalities and the source of its memes.
https://youtu.be/2ybxeGBtVw4

BTW Bill Wood (interviewed by Kerry; spoken of on PA) is a pedophile, there is no statutory consideration when the age difference is that large and the girl is 12. Here's a link to an overview of the him and the incident in question:
https://youtu.be/W-BtUByJvRE

Bill Brockbrader was the first one to confess and discuss, in length, his experience with the underage lady. He wasn't outed. He wasn't caught or forced into confession. He outright talked about it and he has apologized many many times. But without getting into the pedophile or not a pedophile argument, what is so unbelievable about his testimony regarding Iraq? Why is this guy C.W. Chanter going after Bill Brockbrader after all of these years? Brockbrader is in hiding and very silent. And Don Shipley is obviously a very low-level backwoods patsy (IMHO) who wouldn't ever be involved in any sort of real intelligence. And please understand my questions/comments are not directed at you personally. I am just throwing my thoughts out there, I guess. Thank you. Utmost respect to you.

[OnyxKnight]

Bill Brockbrader was the first one to confess and discuss, in length, his experience with the underage lady. He wasn't outed. He wasn't caught or forced into confession. He outright talked about it and he has apologized many many times. But without getting into the pedophile or not a pedophile argument, what is so unbelievable about his testimony regarding Iraq? Why is this guy C.W. Chanter going after Bill Brockbrader after all of these years? Brockbrader is in hiding and very silent. And Don Shipley is obviously a very low-level backwoods patsy (IMHO) who wouldn't ever be involved in any sort of real intelligence. And please understand my questions/comments are not directed at you personally. I am just throwing my thoughts out there, I guess. Thank you. Utmost respect to you.


BTW Bill Wood (interviewed by Kerry; spoken of on PA) is a pedophile, there is no statutory consideration when the age difference is that large and the girl is 12. Here's a link to an overview of the him and the incident in question:
https://youtu.be/W-BtUByJvRE

He was involved with two 16 year old girls as well. I just don't know if those cases were prior to this one you mentioned, or after. So, we have a case of a repeat offender here Weezer. How sorry can he be? Why are you defending him?

[Cidersomerset]

Angela's Caches - Angela Power-Disney talks to Zen Gardner

Some technical difficulties for first 5 mins or so and periodically ....

A good discussion Zen gives some of his background and how he got into the
church and various aspects of his life . It will not satisfy every one but does give
some idea what was happening from his perspective. The information should be
taken in context of what was happening with the 60's/70's/80's free love
generation.

Child abuse , religious cults have gone on before and are still going on. I have
posted all types of articles on here , this is not a black and white issue . Sure all
abuse is wrong but it seems to be part of the human psyche from the beginning.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?50809-How-Jimmy-was-able-to-Fix-it----

The Sumerian/ Egyptian /Judea religious cults spawned thousands of years ago are
still alive and well . The question whether Zen is guilty with the millions of other
various cult members is not in doubt , its up to the individual whether you believe
his explanations or not and no doubt more will come out. You can go in many
different directions from here , but look at all of it with an open mind , we all
know what is right and wrong in our own reality , this cannot be explained in
simple terms as there are leaders, followers , victims in all walks of life.

Yes I get very angry at all the injustices going on and war , crime , abuse is
wrong but we should be careful with denouncing Zen in this case until we are sure.
There are many people outed on the Jimmy Saville thread , but not all are/were
proven guilty and some may be innocent.

nT1DCPk4-DI

Published on 23 Aug 2016
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwsrA...

[Chester]

The Alt Community should not be known as a haven for con men and frauds that, once they have positioned themselves/been positioned as Alt Media Fixtures/Leaders, are given a free pass on the measure of their character.

What's your opinion on the following situation. (note, I may not have the facts right but please, indulge the below scenario... as if I have it pretty much right).

Regarding ZG (and also based on his own statements) - if someone has made mistakes in their life... including some really big ones, if they then truly see the light, have some sort of profound, life changing spiritual experience and/or get some serious counseling where they made real positive changes... and then, over time, it becomes clear that individual really did make these changes at their core because the negative behaviors ceased, how now should this person be viewed?

If the story I hear about ZG is accurate, the man changed his life dramatically (and extracted himself and if I understand this correctly, his family as well as best he could) from that terrible cult... and did so 17 years ago.

Now, maybe there's more to all this. But I have to go on all and only what I read here in this thread and the links provided in several posts.

I will be building to a few things but need to ask a few questions of this nature first.

[boutreality]

I wish that hypothetical person well.
Should that person position himself where he may be construed as a guide for others, he or she has responsibility to disclose up front what troubling times he had in his past hat may speak to (hopefully past) troubling flaws in his character.

Weezer-

CW's "going after" him, even after "all these years" -as you say, fits the model of what CW is addressing. That is, "Who are these people in the Alt Media? Where do they come from? Should they be trusted?"

[Chester]

I wish that hypothetical person well.
Should that person position himself where he may be construed as a guide for others, he or she has responsibility to disclose up front what troubling times he had in his past hat may speak to (hopefully past) troubling flaws in his character.

Weezer-

CW's "going after" him, even after "all these years" -as you say, fits the model of what CW is addressing. That is, "Who are these people in the Alt Media? Where do they come from? Should they be trusted?"

I am a poster here on Avalon. Sometimes people contact me and we become Skype friends. Sometimes we have chats, sometimes voice calls and sometimes we have video calls. Sometimes these conversations are lengthy. In some cases I might be provided counsel or advice... sometimes I may provide counsel or advice. Usually this happens when solicited. I do my very best never to offer counsel or advice unless I am asked. I do share many of my experiences. Some of these experiences were difficult and even traumatic for me. Some were caused by others, some caused by me, many caused by others as well as myself and some seemed simply a matter of being at the wrong place at the wrong time (and some would blame that on their definition of karma).

In all cases I have had to seek resolution to the issues that have arisen in my life. I do not like loose ends of any kind.

I have often shared what I did to resolve those issues as long as I was either asked or, if I offer to share it, the offer is accepted. This could be considered sharing counsel or advice. Some have appreciated me for this. Some have benefited... at least that is what they told me.

But my life is complex and I am involved in all sorts of projects unrelated to matters of the heart and soul and mind and spirit. It is these things from which I earn the funds I need for managing my life in the fashion I desire, comfortable enough... far from wealthy. And at my age and with kids and even a grandchild, much of my efforts center around being there for them financially as each one struggles to get on their own independent feet.

But because I am fortunate enough to be able to finance my life independent of anything related to the Alternative Community, I won't be writing books, making videos, or creating websites that raise my public profile such that I might transition to offering counseling whether to help folks without charging or perhaps even to generate income from what I might do in regards to assisting others. indirectly or directly. This is me and my situation and though they say "never say never" this one can be taken to the bank. Yet having said this, I do not begrudge anyone who is able to make any type of decent living if that income is derived via providing some form of true help to others and this goes for forum creators, website creators, researchers, book writers, video creators, and counselors (in person, via voice communication, via video calls and even web group situations).

So... back to myself - with all the above in mind... and with the fact that I know, for a fact, my past is riddled with mistakes... some pretty terrible ones, should I make public all these things on this forum because I am in some very tiny way a "public figure' due to my public postings?

And as I noted above... I do sometimes provide counsel to others who I have met through the various forums and blogs within the grand umbrella I call the Alternative Community. Of course, I have also received a great deal of counsel as well. Some of it actually created the spaces for growth... growth that has stuck.

Many who have read my most revealing posts over the almost 5 years I have been a forum member (90% or more of these posts made right here on Avalon) would probably say that I have been one of the most personally revealing forum members they have encountered. In fact, I would not be surprised if some folks felt I have gone too far and done this many times ("Sam... too much information!"). I have done this mostly for the selfish reason of healing. I won't go onto the details but being a former active member of AA, one of the things I took from AA was the recommendation that to get sober and stay sober, an alcoholic/addict really needs to be rigorously honest. Of course they mean more than anything, be honest with yourself... but my case has been so severe I have been compelled to share much of it here on the forum.

Yet not all.

Yet still, should I spill all the beans?

If I do before someone is deemed to have "forced me to" does this give me a pass? If I do not, and some of the folks I have shared some things with suddenly demand I do... and then I do, would that now make me eternally a "bad guy?" Does this mean that the being I was back in the days of my worst mistakes is still that same being? Does this void me from being a (mostly) positive being for Avalon and the members of Avalon and non-members who catch some of my posts?

I hope that Citizen No2 and boutreality and some others who seem to share the "hang Zen Gardener" view would share with me their thoughts along these lines.

[dredsen]

It seems many did not watch cw's video response. That is not meant to be derisive the video is very long. Cw states his main problem is that he did send bill an email asking questions but bill posted the email here instead.

Since its unlikely many will not be watching the hour and a half video I am transcribing Cws letter to bill (to which bill replied on page 4). I post this in the hopes that there is some misunderstanding as I wish these things did not happen, as I like Bill Ryan and CW.


Dear Mr. Ryan,

I hope this email finds you well, and the Weather is pleasant in your neck of the woods.

Though it might not seem obvious or self evident, I Love you and am happy to be writing to you on this day

I'm not angry at anything you have said about me

I acknowledge that any criticism that I may have regarding same are perfectly mirrored by the criticisms you may have regarding things I've said about you

I acknowledge the factual accuracy of your statements regarding your previous invitation to dialog

One of the reasons I did not accept the invitation was because I was experiencing heavy emotions over the effect my actions had on Shane, and his timeline.

Another reason was fear and distrust of You

Yet another reason was my reluctance to go down any path which may have lead to me stopping what I was doing on YouTube, an activity which I was enjoying

I acknowledge that as you did not specifically endorse Bill Wood, and as you are not in control of the Project Camelot YouTube channel, my statements regarding your relationship with him contained in the "Zen

Gardner" video were inappropriate and inaccurate. For clarity of the record this statement is also by and large applicable to Mr. David Icke in regards his relationship with Zen Gardner, if only for other reasons and

rationale.

Mr. Ryan, I hope the candor of the statements against self interest made above testify to some measure of integrity and honesty possessed by myself.

The statements that follow are not intended as a "but", rather they are intended as an "and".

To the best of my ability to know myself I am not an intentional spreader of disinformation and lies, though I do make mistakes and errors in judgement.

I still believe that some of my criticisms of you and your actions taken before, during and after your involvement with Project Camelot, and now during your tenure at Project Avalon are legitimate and valid.

Take it as a lesson learned by me, or as a benefit of the doubt to you, that I will refrain from discussing those criticisms here and will rather wait until we can speak directly about same.

To that end, let us make arrangements to talk about same in a medium more expansive then mere text, on or off the record in the vid or voice chat forum of your choosing. I simply believe that text is a 3rd rate

communication medium compared to others which modern technology has made available to us.

[Citizen No2]

@ Sam Hunter:


I hope that Citizen No2 and boutreality and some others who seem to share the "hang Zen Gardener"

That's a presumptuous statement Sam........... I'm a little shocked at that one buddy.

We are talking Sam (re Zen), we are discussing quite a shocking revelation, and we are (naturally) privy to all viewpoints. People do have differing viewpoints, thank goodness, for a wide variety of reasons.

I do not presume that someone who does not get angry with paedophiles is somehow a paedophile sympathiser. Likewise, I'm not calling for Zen to be hung in some sort of witch-hunt.


R


R

[Chester]

@ Sam Hunter:


I hope that Citizen No2 and boutreality and some others who seem to share the "hang Zen Gardener"

That's a presumptuous statement Sam........... I'm a little shocked at that one buddy.



R

ahhh ok maybe it was a presumption. Honestly though, it was the impression I got from a few of your posts (yet more subtly than boutreality's posts). If I am wrong about this, I truly apologize... please help me understand better your posts - if possible, in summary.

Also, please give me your opinion as to what you think I should do and why. Those who know me here know I don't shy away from things.

[Citizen No2]

Sam,

I can't tell you what to do or why. What I get upset about is people who put themselves out-there as a Truth Warriors, extol the virtues of love and light and truth, whilst all the time they either have an ulterior motive, possibly a past that if known to their followers would make them bolt for the door, or out and out liars. That is my 'problem' Sam'. I am certainly not trying to influence what people should do or say, how they should think and act or what info they should follow.

It is my opinion Sam, and mine only, that we interested in the Alt Media scene are doing ourselves a great dis-service, not to mention possible damage, in not carrying out proper due diligence on potential whistle blowers and Alt Media personalities.

That's about the size of it Buddy.


R

[Soda]

I wish that hypothetical person well.
Should that person position himself where he may be construed as a guide for others, he or she has responsibility to disclose up front what troubling times he had in his past hat may speak to (hopefully past) troubling flaws in his character.

Weezer-

CW's "going after" him, even after "all these years" -as you say, fits the model of what CW is addressing. That is, "Who are these people in the Alt Media? Where do they come from? Should they be trusted?"

Hello boutreality and Onyx,
This subject is obviously complex. I defend Bill Brockbrader because
1) I have my own unbelievable story related to him and David Wilcock which almost cost me my life (literally). If you want proof of how and when and why, I can provide it via private message. I was in contact with him in 2012 for a period of time. I initiated it to try to get answers about my supposed investment with Wilcock. Now, I was NOT a victim - only a complete IDIOT and a fool playing with fire. So, based on my real-life experience, I tend to believe that Brockbrader is legitimate. Not that he is a perfect person or anything, but that he did what he said he did in Iraq.
2) He admitted to killing innocent people in Iraq. He told the world he was a murderer. Yet, as usual, the inappropriate sex is the topic that is the highlight of the situation. Same story as always.
Now, with that said, I used to trust EVERYBODY. I was a moron. It never used to occur to me that people would ever use others for cash. I am still learning that lesson on a daily basis, as I still want to believe that humans are better than that. I am actually an accountant of all things, and I have been manipulating books on behalf of the supposed elite myself. I KNOW better than to believe in fairy tales. Turns out I actually DON'T know any better. I guess BECAUSE I am an accountant, I understand very well that money is NOT even real. It's a made up concept.
Anyway, we ALL probably deserve to be jailed or persecuted for one reason or another. Let's not be so quick to hang everyone straight away though. Let's forgive and just love one another and stop this constant infighting over every little thing. I did listen to CW's "Bill Ryan rant" this morning while running - and I think he made a LOT of fantastic points, in principle. I just don't love the personal attacks and name calling. We are all trying to do our best in figuring out what is true and what is false.

[Flash]

those are good questions Onyx

Why are anyone defending repeat offenders? It is not the case of a grown up man falling in love with a teenager and remaining faithful to her for years to come. This can happen albeit very rarely. Most often the teenager gets used and exploited more than anything else. It is here the case of a grown man who probably did not even perceived he was harming teenagers. He was finding it normal.

Any teenager who had too early responsibilities of raising children and being a wife will, at some point, have a mental brake down - she will have to reshuffle her life and her truth in it. When a man uses teenagers repeatedly, it is not pure love but rather pure lust.

Talking about that, I do not understand why we talk against Gardner and not agtainst Trump, the latter having had the same behaviors, namely getting in bed with teenagers and not reporting those exploiting underage children.

The proof being when he got out with his first wife, he was a grown man, she was 15 years old (I think her name was Ivanka). And he was yachting with renown pedophiles, having young girls in the boat, probably having sex with them, and surely not reporting those who had. In my book, certainly as bad as Bill Clinton if not worst.

So now, tell me, American friends, why Trump is not being discussed as well?





Bill Brockbrader was the first one to confess and discuss, in length, his experience with the underage lady. He wasn't outed. He wasn't caught or forced into confession. He outright talked about it and he has apologized many many times. But without getting into the pedophile or not a pedophile argument, what is so unbelievable about his testimony regarding Iraq? Why is this guy C.W. Chanter going after Bill Brockbrader after all of these years? Brockbrader is in hiding and very silent. And Don Shipley is obviously a very low-level backwoods patsy (IMHO) who wouldn't ever be involved in any sort of real intelligence. And please understand my questions/comments are not directed at you personally. I am just throwing my thoughts out there, I guess. Thank you. Utmost respect to you.


BTW Bill Wood (interviewed by Kerry; spoken of on PA) is a pedophile, there is no statutory consideration when the age difference is that large and the girl is 12. Here's a link to an overview of the him and the incident in question:
https://youtu.be/W-BtUByJvRE

He was involved with two 16 year old girls as well. I just don't know if those cases were prior to this one you mentioned, or after. So, we have a case of a repeat offender here Weezer. How sorry can he be? Why are you defending him?

[Daozen]

But because I am fortunate enough to be able to finance my life independent of anything related to the Alternative Community, I won't be writing books, making videos, or creating websites that raise my public profile such that I might transition to offering counseling whether to help folks without charging or perhaps even to generate income from what I might do in regards to assisting others. indirectly or directly. This is me and my situation and though they say "never say never" this one can be taken to the bank.


Yet having said this, I do not begrudge anyone who is able to make any type of decent living if that income is derived via providing some form of true help to others and this goes for forum creators, website creators, researchers, book writers, video creators, and counselors (in person, via voice communication, via video calls and even web group situations).

I'm glad you mentioned this. You (and others) have rarely appended the second part of your paragraph to the numerous self-righteous diatribes against "donate buttons" and "selling PDFs" that litter this forum. To be honest, it can grate after a while. I find myself thinking, many a time... what right do people involved in banking, corporate America, Hollywood, the gambling industry, the military, the drugs trade, and pharmaceutical companies have to look down their nose at someone selling a PDF for 10 bucks, or online conference tickets for 6-7 USD? It actually annoys me a lot, because my number one mission in this incarnation is to help people set up ethical businesses, and turn the 'organic industry' revenue stream from a trickle to a flood. It is my task to suggest innovative ideas that people can run from their homes to dig themselves out of financial hardship. My business models can be copied by anyone. It really winds me up to be sneered at for doing this. Thanks for your candour, Sam. It's not just you, comments like this are all over Avalon and the "spiritual" boards.

So I have a guideline: The next time *ANYONE* makes a snarky comment about donate buttons or selling books, or any items:

1) I suggest they write in full where they've got their income over the past twenty years.
2) They make specific reference to individuals they feel are fraudulent, without making sweeping generalizations.
3) They write a few sentences on how they think the human race can set up large hydroponic farms, water filters, 3D printers, or any benevolent technology without buying or selling items.

Are you all communists?

Money is not evil, and *many* of you come from industries far more malefic than an English teacher/translator flogging a PDF in his spare time. FYI, I set my book for free a year ago. The idea that people selling their arts and crafts is somehow parasitizing or predating upon this community is fallacious, when you consider that the human race spends billions a day on ciggies and booze. We have money.

I understand there are many demagogues out there, but please keep things in perspective. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to write about this and get it off my chest. Your public self-reflection is something that I admire, Sam.

[Chester]

Sam,

I can't tell you what to do or why. What I get upset about is people who put themselves out-there as a Truth Warriors, extol the virtues of love and light and truth, whilst all the time they either have an ulterior motive, possibly a past that if known to their followers would make them bolt for the door, or out and out liars. That is my 'problem' Sam'. I am certainly not trying to influence what people should do or say, how they should think and act or what info they should follow.

It is my opinion Sam, and mine only, that we interested in the Alt Media scene are doing ourselves a great dis-service, not to mention possible damage, in not carrying out proper due diligence on potential whistle blowers and Alt Media personalities.

That's about the size of it Buddy.


R

Great Post and this is clear, to the point and frankly, I could have written the same words myself. I feel we are now, at least in regards to what you wrote, on the very same page. Thanks, R... Sam

[boutreality]

Well said CNo2!

Flash-
Trump is not a At Media personality -Period.
An established pattern of untrustworthy personalities and sources of information in the Alt Media is becoming apparent.
It is being addressed here and, as far as I'm concerned, it is long overdue.

Weezer-
I've concluded the Bill Wood's stance is untenable, there is nothing that will change that. Ages 12-16 -there may be other instances (in the Bill Wood case) with 16 yr olds- with an adult is a situation where nothing but manipulation and coerced activity will occur in terms of sexual activity.

A person that would take advantage of that is not a man.
If there is anything to be done that can redeem him, that's his own business, he'd likely be well served dedicating his own time to doing just that.
Let him make a living elsewhere than as a source of information for the Alt Media.

I openly wonder how many people feel they too made a poor decision when they donated money to Wilcock.

[Flash]

In the context of this thread, related to alt media personnalities, you are completely right about Trump, he is not in the alternative media. My mistake. Yet, I am surprised this has never been addressed here on the forum.

I do expect a pattern of unworthy personalities in the alt media fields. Why? Because for many of the experiencers on anything fringe (from pedophilia to being captured by ET to Montauk victims to Bigfoot to....) the experiences are so out of the ordinary that they bordeline mental sickness labels. Which I do not think it is the case for many. Many do encounter strange and difficult experience and are abuse by experimenters of all kinds.

However, anything fringe will also call the real mentally sick to get into these forums and believe themselves, that the voices they heard were pushed by someone else in their mind, or that the devils they hallucinate may be from ETs or that the sexual deviations they have may be explained by their being controlled by outside forces. And they believe fully that it is the case. But once you are in private prolonged contact with them, you realize they are plain schizophrenic for example. No more, no less.

And yes, both, the mental sickness as well as the excuses of alternative experiences for crooked and abnormal behavior have to be adressed, I agree.

It is absolutely devastating the behaviors of some people can or would have on some people. THis has to be named.



Well said CNo2!

FLash-
Trump is not a At Media personality -Period.
An established pattern of untrustworthy personalities and sources of information in the Alt Media is becoming apparent.
It is being addressed here and, as far as I'm concerned, it is long overdue.

Weezer-
I've concluded the Bill Wood's stance is untenable, there is nothing that will change that. Age 12-16 -there may be other instances with 16 yr olds- with an adult is a situation where nothing but manipulation and coerced activity will occur in terms of sexual activity.
A person that would take advantage of that is not a man.
Let him make a living elsewhere than as a source of information for the Alt Media

[Shannon]

A

To anyone interested, CW has posted a reply video, linked below. The first 32m is a clean, fair minded assessment and, as he says, "In the end people will side with Bill (Ryan) or with me," and something like "that's inevitable."
After about 32m he gets into his editorial, which is spoken from the same polarizing character I happen to enjoy.

I still hold that he raises a valid point re: questioning the backgrounds of Alt Media personalities and the source of its memes.
https://youtu.be/2ybxeGBtVw4

BTW Bill Wood (interviewed by Kerry; spoken of on PA) is a pedophile, there is no statutory consideration when the age difference is that large and the girl is 12. Here's a link to an overview of the him and the incident in question:
https://youtu.be/W-BtUByJvRE

Bill Brockbrader was the first one to confess and discuss, in length, his experience with the underage lady. He wasn't outed. He wasn't caught or forced into confession. He outright talked about it and he has apologized many many times. But without getting into the pedophile or not a pedophile argument, what is so unbelievable about his testimony regarding Iraq? Why is this guy C.W. Chanter going after Bill Brockbrader after all of these years? Brockbrader is in hiding and very silent. And Don Shipley is obviously a very low-level backwoods patsy (IMHO) who wouldn't ever be involved in any sort of real intelligence. And please understand my questions/comments are not directed at you personally. I am just throwing my thoughts out there, I guess. Thank you. Utmost respect to you.


Cw was using bill wood as an example to go after Bill Ryan, Kerry and so on...

:)


And just for the record bill wood is gross. Not a good guy, I don't care to hear about any of his testimony.

I don't have comment on zen gardner. I never listened to him, and I as far as I know he was never called out as a pedophile, but just knowing he had to have covered for more than a few of them makes me feel like he really needs to stop talking and start learning. He needs to get right with himself. No way could I ever. Ever. Forgive myself for even ignoring the kind of abuse those poor kids suffered.

On the other hand. Who knows? Maybe he was a victim and hasnt come to terms with it himself. It's all bad. Just wrong and bad.
Like someone above said, I can forgive a whole lot. But when it comes to the sexual abuses of children I just rage inside.

[boutreality]

Shannon,
Our focus does not need to be there. I'm not looking at this as a Bill and Kerry problem. CW has his own issues with them. If deeper checks had been done perhaps he would not have those problems, Bill has sufficiently addressed why those checks do not happen.

The allegations against Bill Wood speak for themselves, Kerry happens to be, in large part, how he initially got his name out there. -Not responsible for who he is.

Flash-
I feel taking a stance like the one this thread represents is a start to ending the all-to-common appearance of the Alt Media/Community as a Safe Haven for questionable (at times criminal) characters.

[Chester]

I rarely watch a two hour youtube anymore these days... yet I felt compelled, and in fact a duty to watch this one. Yes, the tech issues were a bit annoying, but I stayed with it all the way.

nT1DCPk4-DI

And I am glad I did.

I do not claim to be perfect at reading people but I came away from this video with a sense and feeling that Zen Gardner was being honest... very honest, painfully honest, cathartically honest. If the details he gave are pretty much the truth, Zen Gardner, for me, as he is today, is not only a good guy, but a brave guy. Would I trust him with my children? Having only seen this two hour video? Yes I would. He's no pedo. Not a shot IMO. Not only would I trust him with my kids but I also would bet that he has helped lots of folks and hopefully will continue to do so. If he has lost some friends over this, they probably weren't true frinds. If he has lost some support over this, based on what I experienced just in that video, he has gained mine.

There's one specific issue that was addressed earlier I wish to comment upon. That issue being that Zen did not "disclose" his past previously. I ask readers this question... if you found yourself emerging from that situation, one which you had already began to revolt against. One that you had a deep, emotional attachment to (as those in cults long term almost always experience). One that you then attempted to reform so that the dark stuff can be extracted such that the "good stuff" might remain. One that you finally had to give up on. One that you completely left yet surely had a great deal of healing to hopefully get through. And over time you find yourself built anew, free of that "horrific" experience (the knowing of the attrocities that went on) and somehow you now find yourself filled with the energy which provide you the words by which others could receive benefits of a profound spiritual nature. And then years later you find yourself essentially a respected and appreciated voice in primarily the spiritiual side of the Alternative Community - your feet firmly planted in a new life, finally fulfilling your dream to be a difference, to make a difference... and yes, it becomes a driver to your livelyhood which gives you the opportunity to be free of the slave job... and yet, deep down you also know you have your past haunting you, a past that you know, if it does come to light, exactly what IS happening would be happening...

Can I understand how it is possible a good man, a truly good man could find himself in this situation? Could I understand how each year that distanced him from 1999 was accompanied by a sense of freedom while simultaneously hoping it would just all go away?

The man I experienced in this two hour video is a man I bet looks himself in the mirror and though he sees a shadow what he feels is grace. That grace is what I experienced in the video and for that alone, I honor Zen Gardner. And I bet I'm not alone.

[Daozen]

I only watched 8 minutes of the vid, but I know he named names, including the Dupont family (who made their fortune from explosives, chemicals and plastics IIRC) and a few rock stars. The process of gradual indoctrination he described is very similar to what I observed in the Cobra group, when I interacted with them. There's a lot of crybullying and manipulation going on in the back room with those guys.

So Zen is helping people understand that process, which could befall anyone. I feel readers have a right to ask exactly what he knew, in detail , of the crimes commited in COG. I sympathize with him, but I also sympathize with the children who need justice. Zen claimed in writing that he wouldn't be giving details, and that anyone asking for specifics was "morbidly curious???" (from memory). I don't think this is the case... the truth needs to out.

I fully understand the sentiment of joining a corrupt group, and naively thinking that one could "change them." I have tried to do this myself, failed, and walked away in disgust. It is a valid life mission to join a negative group, have an awakening, try and change them, leave, and then blow the whistle. It is a hard path, and fraught with dangers.

He could write a document naming as many people as he can. I can understand how he might be scared to do that, but he's commited now, whether he likes it or not. Understand that I am not apologizing for anyone, or condoning child molestation, or trying to minimize what went on. We are still not sure to what extent he knew what was happening. So I'm neutral regarding that aspect of the case.

TPTW fear awakenings. As Bill said, there was a potential world awakening in the 60s/70s. So the CIA etc went in there and set up honeypot groups, to ensnare potential changemakers. The same dynamic continues today.

The best way forward is to engage the subject, and talk to him, if he wants...

[boutreality]

{To All-} ...And please, when the issue is alleged or proven pedophilia, let's drop the "but she was age but more mature for reasons." It's a sickening tact to take and it dampens our collective interest in clarifying the issues this thread addresses and how to solve them.

[B]From Article found at EDinformatics titled: "The Adolescent Brain -Why Teenagers Thinik and Act differently":


"In calm situations, teenagers can rationalize almost as well as adults. But stress can hijack what Ron Dahl, a pediatrician and child psychiatric researcher at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center calls "hot cognition" and decision-making. The frontal lobes help put the brakes on a desire for thrills and taking risk -- a building block of adolescence; but, they're also one of the last areas of the brain to develop fully"

[B]Full Article Here:

http://www.edinformatics.com/news/teenage_brains.htm

And to further my request, consider a comment I made in the "Age of Consent" thread, summed up here:

I remember reading that studies have shown that our brains are incapable of reasoning that is founded in our own neurological capacity until 19, when the reasoning center is considered developed "enough, this process starts at 17.

We continue this development to refined, more complex reasoning through to 21 when the neurological foundation for critical analysis begins to from; at 23 one is believed capable of independent Critical Analysis. All exhibited behaviors appearing to the contrary are learned or mimicked behaviors, the question then becomes, what situations is the CHILD learning to mimic?

-Not, "But how old were they acting."

[Cidersomerset]

To All-} ...And please, when the issue is alleged or proven pedophilia, let's drop the "but she was
[blank] age but more mature for [blank] reasons. It's a sickening tact to take and it dampen our
collective interest in clarifying the issues this thread addresses and how to solve them.

You reminded me of something I have mentioned before on here but not in great
detail. I was called for jury service last February 2015 at Taunton crown court . You
are summoned to attend for 10 working days though this can be extended if the
case carries over , or reduced if cases are cancelled or finished earlier than
scheduled or other unforeseen circumstances. It was a sobering and interesting
experience the fate of someone in your collective hands though we were directed
by the Judge and the conflicting arguments of the prosecution and defence and
much of the time was spent in the waiting room as legal wrangling was going on. I
sat on two underage sex related cases and a burglary.

The one you reminded me was a 13 year old girl in foster care who ran away with
man from India working in the Gloucester area late 20's as a van driver, As we
were shown the charge sheet and it was read out , it looked an open and shut
case . Sexual Penetration front and back , abduction of a minor and several other charges.

But as the case progressed it was the girl who had initiated contact by going on a
dating service lying about her age.Agreeing to meet him in a pub car park opposite
her foster home, sneaking out the house,which was nr. Frome ? Somerset and why
it was being heard at Taunton Crown court.The next day she ran away with him to
his flat in Gloucester. He did not know her age and when she did come into court
she was a big girl and could have passed for 17/18 especially with make up. Things
got out of hand pretty quick the whole event lasted about three days before she
and he was stopped and picked up by police on their way to London. There was
much more involved and many witness's. The man involved was lonely looking for
a wife and he proposed to the girl in their short time together and he claimed he
did not know her real age. There was a delay getting copies of texts from his
mobile as they had to be released by a US company and several days into the case
they arrived and in them it showed after a couple days the girl did tell him her real
age , but he said it did not matter and he would look after and when she was old
enough they would get married.

Anyway after the defendant was confronted with the texts he changed his plea
and he was found guilty. We did not have to come to deliberate on the case in the
jury room but we all commented on what seemed black and white was not, even
though technically it was. It was a classic Lolita case and no one came out of it
satisfied . When the Judge passed the verdict of guilt and the sentence was to be
announced at a later time he said he had overrun his work visa and his father who
was in the police in India had a heart attack while his son was in custody. As I said
there was more to it and the girl was very clever and manipulative , but she was
only 13.......

As I said it sounded a open and shut case and we wondered why it had got to
court in front of a jury ? Though we realised there was probably more to it , but it
ended up a sad tale....and I do look at these events a bit different now.

[Chester]

Great story, Cidersomerset.

The world is NOT black and white.

Each and ever experience for each and every human being is unique and if ever one is found in a position to have to make an Earthly judgment, hopefully they will consider the specific case and all the mitigating circumstances.

[boutreality]

Ill go ahead and say to moderators : Feel free to move this repsone (possibly cindersomerset's) to the Age of Consent thread, where the discussion belongs.
However it was asked here and here's my response:

The perpetrator is the man in his late 20s.
The girl, at thirteen and in extreme circumstance, is in NO WAY culpable for the sexual assault.
-No consent consideration (i.e "her behavior/appearance") can be argued as valid.

The man is of poor character, making an internal judgment call convenient to what he sees are his "needs", saying she "looks older with make up " will not change that.
The girl needed help.
When the man made contact, even though it was in answer to an ad she placed, the onus was on him to take her to authorities or report her.

13 yrs olds are often manipulative and often serve exclusively what they believe are their own needs.
She may have consented in the moment; may have even reported consent to the authorities. -To her: she placed the ad; she snuck out; he had expectations. -That's the internalized intimidation of the scenario she's deliberating.
Any self respecting authority would override her claims on behalf of what's in her best interest.

The only problem I have is that he may have been deported to India which I still believe has an appallingly low AoC.
-Several of the states do as well; 16 here in NV; I believe it's even lower in Alabama and Kentucky.
The neurological findings speak for themselves, we are not being responsible as culture of people that claim to have the best interest of children in mind if we allow an AoC under 18.

I say make it 19 (based on my last post) nationwide with a 2-3 yr window for near-age considerations (developing relationships; etc.)

Since this is PA, I feel free to contend that the reason the low AoC's are in place is to cater to a small sector of the population that has the means and the interest to engage in "Pedophile Tourism."

"We act on animal instinct -survival of the primitive- invade your camp then set up a perimeter." -"Camoflauge" by Shane (aka Madchild) of Swollen Members

[Chester]

So this thread has gone all over the place... let me try and bring it back (for a moment) to the heart of the thread as summarized by Citizen No2 -


Sam,

I can't tell you what to do or why. What I get upset about is people who put themselves out-there as a Truth Warriors, extol the virtues of love and light and truth, whilst all the time they either have an ulterior motive, possibly a past that if known to their followers would make them bolt for the door, or out and out liars. That is my 'problem' Sam'. I am certainly not trying to influence what people should do or say, how they should think and act or what info they should follow.

It is my opinion Sam, and mine only, that we interested in the Alt Media scene are doing ourselves a great dis-service, not to mention possible damage, in not carrying out proper due diligence on potential whistle blowers and Alt Media personalities.

That's about the size of it Buddy.


R

... and then specifically to this part "possibly a past that if known to their followers"

and then replace that last word - "possibly a past that if known to their fellow community members."

Should someone leave the community if some within that community deem "a past" (of a community member) as legitimate qualifier to be ostracized?


And another question for those who may have read my post #109 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?92689-Zen-Gardner-Exposed-Spotlight-on-Alt-Media&p=1092521&viewfull=1#post1092521)... does this perspective overcome the perspective of condemnation to the degree Zen Gardner should no longer perform the role he has played in the Alternative Community for the last several years?


Note the post way back on page one (here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?92689-Zen-Gardner-Exposed-Spotlight-on-Alt-Media&p=1091020&viewfull=1#post1091020)) that points out the possibility an individuated spirit-being may have performed atrocious acts in other lifetimes Yet we think we should make decisions about others that affect these very others based on something they may have done years before even if they have changed their life and have created a track record over more than a decade of exemplary living and giving?


Imagine what a world we might have if folks could not redeem themselves?


Check out the story of Clyde Thompson (https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1377-i-was-sentenced-to-death-in-the-electric-chair-a-true-story)

[Cidersomerset]

The perpetrator is the man in his late 20s.
The girl, at thirteen and in extreme circumstance, is in NO WAY culpable for the sexual assault.
-No consent consideration (i.e "her behavior/appearance") can be argued as valid.

I know that's what we all thought , but you did not hear the case . He pleaded
guilty in the end , when confronted with the texts.

We found out she was not allowed access to a computer , we were not told why ?
But could guess. Her Foster parents were middle aged and not computer literate.
She did not have access to the web on her mobile. How she did it is her father
bought her a second hand play station or something similar ? and she got on line
that way. She did initiate it , and fooled him the first encounter the rest we
can only suspect if he really knew her age or not and there were other witness's
involved. We got the impression this was not the first time she had tried this.

He certainly knew her age after a couple of days as it turned out. None of us
condoned his actions in anyway , it was just not as straight forward as the
charge sheet suggested when you bring in the human aspect .

Still hopefully she learned from this experience and he has paid a price....

[boutreality]

-I'm not sure I have much variance on the below sentiment to offer, though I would appreciate it, if this type of discussion continues, that it happens in the "Age of Consent" thread. Bill did ask politely that Age of Consent discussion occur there. I only brought it up here to make a request should more allegations of pedophilia among New Age personalities arise.

SHE WAS 13- PERIOD The guy ruined his reputation by giving in, no matter how "elaborate " anyone paints her so-called ploy, it was the ploy of a 13 yr old. If she broke the law in "orchestrating" events leading up to the incident that should be dealt with.

No matter what that role is, it will never ameliorate the culpability of a man in his late 20s that saw a chance to be with a girl too far his junior and acted upon it.

No equivocating- she was a girl; he was a grown up.

:focus:

There is a thread dedicated to the repetitive false predictions and promises of David Wilcock. There are many reports of people that offered him money that in someway feel defrauded.

People are arrested in the "rest" of the world for pyramid schemes and ploys to bilk money from people that believed they were paying to receive an unnamed benefit. Has Wilcock become a money for "seed prayers" guru of the New Age?

[Seed-Prayer Preachers encourage their followers to donate money so that by improving the life of their leader they will become the beneficiaries of their leader's prayers on their behalf.]

David Wilcock has employed this methodology to his role as "leader" of the New Age.

His "career" has been characterized by one "project" or "initiative" after another; each was to bring great benefit to many people; each has been offered by him as a reason to collect donations.

He is by self-definition a "researcher" I hold no stock in anything he says.

His research almost never offers anything independent accept for his claimed connections to one "secret source"/alien or another and each "research' source of info inevitably lead into a new project or initiative he needs donations to pursue.

Why is he given a platform anywhere?

[Cidersomerset]

SHE WAS 13- PERIOD The guy ruined his reputation by giving in, no matter how "elaborate " anyone paints her so-called ploy,
it was the ploy of a 13 yr old. If she broke the law in "orchestrating" events leading up to the incident that should be dealt with.
No matter what that role is, it will never ameliorate the culpability of a man in his late 20s that saw a chance to be with a girl
No equivocating- she was a girl; he was a grown up.

That's not the point I was making , he was guilty under existing laws, and we were
ready to throw away the key.....

Laws are only a guide in any society and its up to the police , lawyers , Judge ,jury
and justice service to interpret any offence, and the wealthier you are the
better attorney you can afford . There is still a two tier justice service in many
countries.

This ties in with Zen in that he is accused of knowing of alleged underage sex
and did not report it to the police or leave the group. He seemed to admit to
having sex with other women in the community in the video interview , which
was common and encouraged and is not illegal and goes on everywhere in
society amongst consenting adults and is a different issue whether you morally
agree with it or not.

Now Epstein and others are supplying sex for millions around the world
some legal some not . Prostitution is as old as society and is legal in
many countries.But parts are not this is where its exploitive, contradictive,
hypocritical , blackmail, control and all sorts of memes come into play.

Some politicians have mistress's others escorts which is fine as long as
they do not practice one thing and preach another....

====================================================
====================================================
====================================================

Reported on alternate media today , I cannot see it on a mainstream sites yet.....
Though they have reported Epstiens celebrity & political clients in the past

'Trump is a child rapist': Candidate linked to 'Lolita Express' billionaire by local GOP chair
By David on 25 August 2016 GMT

RT NEWS....

Bill Clinton and many others are linked to the Jeffrey Epstein scandel

'Trump is a child rapist': Candidate linked to 'Lolita Express' billionaire by local GOP chair
Published time: 24 Aug, 2016 16:04
Edited time: 24 Aug, 2016 16:16

https://www.rt.com/usa/357042-trump-child-rapist-allegation/?utm_source=browser&utm_medium=aplication_chrome&utm_campaign=chrome

==================================================

http://www.progressivedisorder.com/images/content/bill-clinton-jerry-epstein.jpghttps://spidercatweb.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/19226-chodqpbwiaao_ue1.jpg?

https://yt3.ggpht.com/-8EmOV6Uyan8/AAAAAAAAAAI/AAAAAAAAAAA/lsr2usyFUO0/s88-c-k-no-mo-rj-c0xffffff/photo.jpg
Clinton Ties To Billionaire Child Pornographer Revealed ( Sweetheart Deal )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4F-MiQIGIU

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pedophile Billionaires: Jeffrey Epstein, Bill Clinton & Sex Slave Island Cover-Up

ElAqnV2o1RQ

Published on 24 Jul 2015
Billionaire pedophile Jeffrey Epstein, his relationship with Bill Clinton, Alan
Dershowitz, Prince Andrew and other famous names, and their connection to a high-
level sex scandal is exposed by Conchita and Cristina Sarnoff. We also look at
slavery and human sex trafficking in the modern world, and more, in this
uncensored Buzzsaw interview, hosted by Sean Stone.

====================================================
====================================================
====================================================
( Edit ) From todays headline page.....

Another article about religious cults many of which class woman as second class
citizens....This is not only extreme Jewish cults/sects , Saudi and many other
countries do something similar.

Ultra-Orthodox Jewish sect bans ‘dangerous’ higher education for women
By David on 25 August 2016 GMT

http://www.haaretz.com/world-news/1.738337

RT NEWS

It is “dangerous” for women to be university-educated and the practice is now
banned among the Satmar sect of ultra-Orthodox Jews, according to a decree
viewed by The Independent. The ban is to prevent “secular influences” in the “holy
environment.”

https://www.rt.com/usa/356885-satmar-bans-women-university/?utm_source=browser&utm_medium=aplication_chrome&utm_campaign=chrome

INDEPENDENT......

Ultra-Orthodox rabbis ban women from going to university in case they get ‘dangerous’ secular knowledge

Exclusive: The decree seen by The Independent warns ‘We will be very strict about
this. No girls attending our school are allowed to study and get a degree. It is
dangerous. Girls who will not abide will be forced to leave our school’
Siobhan Fenton, Dina Rickman |
@siobhanfenton |
Tuesday 23 August 2016|

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/ultra-orthodox-rabbis-ban-women-from-going-to-university-in-case-they-get-dangerous-secular-a7204171.html

https://theuglytruth.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/jewish-sharia.jpg?

mpRLkIfpeCE

https://theuglytruth.wordpress.com/2016/08/23/ultra-orthodox-jews-ban-higher-education-for-women/

===================================================
Clip from full vid....
yok9h5WzElE

Dispatches | Britain's Hidden Child Abuse | Channel 4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbHpXoIIH-w

Published on 30 Jan 2013
Uploaded pursuant to agreement.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At the beginning of the vid the reporter explains why the Jewish community did not
become an informer. Very similar to what Zen was explaining about his sect.....
The same happens in the Catholic church and many other religious sects, though
would not apply to all and every case , its a very grey area.


Channel 4 Dispatches goes undercover to expose the way the ultra-Orthodox
community in the UK has for decades been dealing with child.

yok9h5WzElE

Published on 29 Jan 2013
Wednesday | 10:30pm | Channel 4

A victim of child sex abuse in one of Britain's religious communities goes
undercover to expose the way his community has for decades been dealing with paedophilia.

Rabbi Ephraim Padwa, the man who leads the Strictly Orthodox Jewish community
in London's Stamford Hill, is the subject of this secretly filmed interview. He is seen
telling a man who says he was sexually abused as a child by a member of this
community, that he must not report his claim to the police. He says that this
is 'Mesira', meaning that it is forbidden for one Jew to report a fellow Jew to the
authorities.

Jackie (the reporter): We asked Rabbi Padwa to explain his actions. The Union of
Orthodox Hebrew Congregations (the organisation he heads) sent us this letter ...
It says 'The Jewish Community considers the safety and protection of our children
as paramount.' It says we [the Union of Orthodox Hebrew Congregations] have
established 'Robust structures to deal with child abuse'. And that 'We work and will
continue to work with police and social services ... to build trust and to create a
system which does address and resolve allegations of abuse within our community'.
But it also says, 'The authorities understand that, unfortunately, some in our
community would simply not be comfortable participating in a police investigation'.

[OnyxKnight]

I hope that Citizen No2 and boutreality and some others who seem to share the "hang Zen Gardener" view would share with me their thoughts along these lines.

I don't want him hanged. I never said that, nor did anyone else. This is also a problem I have with people in the Alt. Media. If you offend somebody they are a fan of, they will twist the criticism into something untrue.

What I want is, people to call a spade a spade. To separate fandom from reality. And for platform providers to be more thorough in checking the backgrounds of the people they promote or host. Is that too much to ask?

Just take a look at Camelot and Avalon as a couple of examples. How many such shady characters did we end up having been promoted here and on Camelot? I can make a list. It's not a couple of misses and mostly hits, if that were the case it would have been fine. It happens. But considering how often we heard Bill & Kerry vouch for certain people, especially giving that sentence "we did our homework/we looked into their background/they check out" - Only to see everything fall apart later on, then I see a problem. Either do better background checks, or don't endorse people in such a way or manner to vouch for their validity and no shady motives, no dirty laundry, no skeletons in the closet.


How many times have we had that Futuretalk convo? Envisioning a better 'tomorrow' society than the one at present. If the Alt. community is supposed to be the grassroots catalysts for a change into that better society and one day live together, do you really want people like Steward Swerdlow, David Wilcock , Gardner or Bill Woods as your neighbours in that tomorrow society? I sure as hell don't! Especially if by that time I have a family. You need to have a few more thoughts about yours IMO.

[Chester]

Hi OnyxKnight - I used the term metaphorically and now wish I had made that clear. I assumed any reader of the thread would "get that." Also note I was no fan of Zen Gardner, had barely ever heard his name until I saw this thread, do not recall ever having looked at his site and am certain I never saw a video he made.

My problem with so many in the alternative community is how they too often (metaphorically) wish to hang someone for a past that they appear to have dealt with, in some cases magnificently. Because I believe each case is unique, I did as much research as I can regarding Zen Gardner and when I saw that last video... IF what Zen Gardner said in that video is the honest truth, its my opinion this man has emerged to be quite a good guy, an example that someone can go through a process of self redemption and that and become an asset to the world and a positive example to others who may have similar pasts.

If you have read enough of my posts, you know I call spades spades, including when I am the spade. I did so with a current situation which you might be very familiar with just within the last month.

My problem is with the self righteous who pretend they never made mistakes while pointing the heavy finger at others for something twenty years ago which based on some reasonably detailed evidence, demonstrates that individual made significant positive changes in their life.

Now is now, then is then...

Perhaps in your case you have never made any significant mistakes. Good for you. But if you have and you have dealt with those and made the changes within yourself you needed to make for the benefit of others and yourself then good for you too!

Also, maybe you have lived in Mayberry all your life (note again this is a metaphor) but I have lived and worked in many parts of the world and guess what... this world is filled with folks "making mistakes" - in many cases big ones. It is called "the shadow side."

So I ask this question to you - what world will we have if every single shady act of every single individual is held against them the rest of their lives regardless of the changes they make and regardless the length of time those changes have become manifest?

Perhaps there's no wonder Simon hasn't come clean and done the right thing and gotten counseling (unless he has done so in the last month or so). More to come on this...

[Daozen]

It's OK to screw up, screw up badly, and then redeem yourself.

The question is, why is the alt media filled with people who have dubious pasts: Wilcock, Cobra, Red Dragons, Blue Avians, Keshe, Simon Parkes... <= In many of these cases, the misuse of trust, time, energy and funds is ongoing in 2016.

Zen may be an exception, but the pattern is clear with the others. It's OK to screw up, but why are these people being positioned as leaders? A lot of the responsibility for choosing these people has to fall on the alt media audience itself. It's not like anyone was ever forced to watch their videos.

[boutreality]

I believe Wilcock claims a "direct-secure-secret" connection to Cobra/BLue Avians etc.
Who's to say he and cohorts did not make this up, given his track record I say it's time we conclude that's more likely than his constant justifications for perpetual false predictions and deflated expectations.
It's why I compare him to the seed-money preachers I was taking about, that's why he does this- there is money to be taken and people to be had.

[TargeT]

Wilcock .....I compare him to the seed-money preachers I was taking about, that's why he does this- there money to be taken and people to be had.

Fulford too

I couldn't agree more.

these toxic individuals energetically leech from everyone who spends time on their material; I wish more people were aware of how bad things like this are.

The Alt media seems rife with these types.. its sad really.

[Cidersomerset]

Zen continuing his path.........

http://www.zengardner.com/wp-content/uploads/logo-top1.png

Reading Signs and Synchronicity on the Spiritual Path
By Zen Gardner -
25/08/2016

http://www.zengardner.com/reading-signs-synchronicity-spiritual-path/

Home.....
http://www.zengardner.com/

[Citizen No2]

Sam Hunter wrote:



My problem with so many in the alternative community is how they too often (metaphorically) wish to hang someone [I]for a past that they appear to have dealt with, in some cases magnificently[I]. Because I believe each case is unique, I did as much research as I can regarding Zen Gardner and when I saw that last video... IF what Zen Gardner said in that video is the honest truth, its my opinion this man has emerged to be quite a good guy, an example that someone can go through a process of self redemption and that and become an asset to the world and a positive example to others who may have similar pasts.

Sam, it's not a wish to 'hang someone'........ You have to understand that.

As I have stated early-on in this thread, I f****d my life up pretty bad, and not just mine, my GF, kids and family. I still feel great shame sometimes about that period. Having come through all of that sh*t I know see it as a great lesson. It gave me the space and time to really work on myself. I now have a business and employ twelve people, I go and talk to primary school children with a community police officer about the dangers of drug addiction (not drugs per se, drug addiction), I practice meditation, I go to classes............ I try and be the best version of me that I can be. So when I say that I 'get' the whole second chance thing, what I really mean is: I GET IT. In certain situations I have to bring this subject up (ex drug addict) because I realise that a potential client has a good chance of finding out and understand how they may feel and react. I address it so as not to make it a negative. It's dealt with and in the open. They are then in a position to make an informed choice as to whether they would like to do business with my company or not.

My business is not in the business of public speaking or attracting members to a web-site/forum. My business does not advise people on spiritual matters and how one should lead their life................ If it was, I would damn-near make sure that any possible skeletons in my cupboard were out in the open, right from the get-go, for the same reasons as I have just stated above. Can you not see how failing to do so could be problematic in the future...... a- la Zen Gardner? Had he been absolutely truthful from the beginning, people then have a more rounded choice as to whether this is the type of guy they wish to 'follow'.

We have become our own worst enemies Pal, knowingly or not. This whole community, this forum and all others, are going to reel when more of these Truth Warriors are exposed as liars, criminals, paedophiles and con-men/women who have not been truthful and honest with their audience. And it also raises questions about whistleblowers who have contacted them and been publicised/pushed by these people. How is that going to effect their information, their credibility? These Truth Warriors are not like the guy who lives down the street who messed up and is now trying to just get on with his life........... Making that assumption is a fallacy. Truth Warriors have the ear of their audience, sometime tens of thousands of people and in some cases almost a cult-like following, ergo, they have Power and Influence.

I hope you can see my point. You may not agree with it, and that's fine, but you need not ask anymore why this is a witch-hunt or public hanging because that is the last thing it is. These people themselves decided to put themselves 'out there' and in most cases have been raised-up on a pedestal. We have the right...... No, the duty, to ask the difficult questions in order to make a more informed choice.


@ Daozen:



The question is, why is the alt media filled with people who have dubious pasts: Wilcock, Cobra, Red Dragons, Blue Avians, Keshe, Simon Parkes... <= In many of these cases, the misuse of trust, time, energy and funds is ongoing in 2016.


Yeah. Because nobody performs due diligence possibly? An easy place to hide..... Out in the open, and with willing and complicit victims.


R

[boutreality]

Wilcock .....I compare him to the seed-money preachers I was taking about, that's why he does this- there money to be taken and people to be had.

Fulford too

I couldn't agree more.

these toxic individuals energetically leech from everyone who spends time on their material; I wish more people were aware of how bad things like this are.

The Alt media seems rife with these types.. its sad really.

I heard that he had a role in introducing Fulford back when DW was on about the "trillions" of gold in Asian banks and a lawsuit that would bring a windfall of money to the entire world, or something just as unbelievable.
I wonder what past the two might share.
I googled allegations against Wilcock and they did not come easy.

That must take money, maybe he spends his donations on Google list priority buys; or now that he's on the History channel they buy it for him.

[TargeT]

Wilcock .....I compare him to the seed-money preachers I was taking about, that's why he does this- there money to be taken and people to be had.
Fulford too

I couldn't agree more.

these toxic individuals energetically leech from everyone who spends time on their material; I wish more people were aware of how bad things like this are.

The Alt media seems rife with these types.. its sad really.

I heard that he had a role in introducing Fulford back when DW was on about the "trillions" of gold in Asian banks and a lawsuit that would bring a windfall of money to the entire world, or something just as unbelievable.
I wonder what past the two might share.
I googled allegations against Wilcock and they did not come easy.

That must take money, maybe he spends his donations on Google list priority buys; or now that he's on the History channel they buy it for him.

it stinks of CO-INTEL-PRO (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO)....... we already know what google is doing to election based searches (hillary bias)... that is CERTAINLY not the only way they skew information..



........the best way to control your subjects information is to BE their source....


I put many Alt "stars" (alex jones, Ron Paul etc..) in this category as well.

in fact, any large scale movement is questionable for me... Those are what is targeted & manipulated/CO-OPed or just taken over.


Lots of discernment tests for us out there..

[Omni]

in fact, any large scale movement is questionable for me... Those are what is targeted & manipulated/CO-OPed or just taken over.
The military industrial complex has a bead on people's potentials before they manifest in themselves. They knew I had musical potential before I was a musician, and knew I would go on to make activist films before the thought had crossed my mind. They know about the potential leaders before anyone else does. Lets say Bruce Lee dies, they have an AI tracking babies to find his soul(which might not be too hard for some older souls), they would have him psyche profiled from his past life to some degree, and psyche profiled from this life also before he even identifies his own identity. This is the current state of technology in the military industrial complex.


https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-5CcOT4ELuFM/V7ve-VG12zI/AAAAAAAADW8/cND0qu-mvr4CTZ5cnG_6SSVIYYRn34g_gCPcB/s1600/Remote-Neural-Monitoring-Thought-Surveillance-NSA-CIA.png

Alt media has always been a good bit bastardized IMO. DARPA didn't give us the internet without a contingency plan to counter a truth movement. Electromagnetic mind control programs have been taking place for like half a century. They have largely gone by completely secretly.



Lots of discernment tests for us out there..
Yep.

[boutreality]

Omniverse,

It's like you answered my call!
Earlier in this thread I discredited an argument in defense of ZG and Simon Parkes, in part because it looked like channelled information and asked people to avail themselves of information in your threads, and here that information is.
Well done Sir!

[Cidersomerset]

I do not follow Simons work , but had to answer his Aug update posted today.

Simon Parkes' warning for Germany
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?92845-Simon-Parkes-warning-for-Germany&p=1092849&viewfull=1#post1092849

Same with many others in different parts of the community . Nick Pope really
annoys me and is a MI 5 plant imo which he all but admits , frequently using his
security oath as an excuse not to disclose any real information . Wilcock , Fulford
and others , I do not follow much , but its about connecting dots for me and many
different subjects unrelated seem to come together. When I first got the web and
found Camelot in 2005/6. All I was wanted to know are UFO's real and where
do they come from etc ?

I followed mainstream politics , history , Scy -fy and documentaries of all kinds
so have always been geo - political.A decade later I have many different threads
about all types of topics and a lot of them do connect and we tend to repeat history
in cycles . I am still learning as I go along and as David Icke has said for years
2016/17/18 are pivotal years and this years seems to be ramping up with Brexit,
Us elections and more. Yes David can get his interpretations wrong as well and
I do not agree with all his views , but he is one of the genuine researchers imo....

This is a good little interview in which thru Nicks usual double talk
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?92347-Best-UFO-cases-Kerry-Cassidy-interviews-Gary-Heseltine-Bentwaters-1980-UFO-case&p=1087420&viewfull=1#post1087420

Nick Pope, MOD Spokesman and UFO Skeptic on Jimmy Church Fade To Black, 4 March 2015
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?80469-Nick-Pope-MOD-Spokesman-and-UFO-Skeptic-on-Jimmy-Church-Fade-To-Black-4-March-2015

[A Voice from the Mountains]

I found great comfort that there is a ground-swell taking place of like-minded individuals, individuals that have had enough of being lied to, of being deceived and being presented with ever more fanciful stories that are served-up without so much as basic due diligence.

I don't know much about Zen Gardner either but I know that even within our relatively small online community, we've had at least two people from amongst ourselves (Corey Goode and Shane "the Ruiner") who were either catapulted into the larger "alternative" limelight or almost were, because they were lying to everybody and not enough people were holding them to critical questions to try to probe how much they really know about what they're talking about.

In some sense we are all responsible when charlatans get us to buy into their stories, because to blindly believe anyone is to be giving our power away. I understand that plausible deniability is a thing, but I also think it's exaggerated. I would rather have a hard fact any day.

[Chester]

Hi Citizen No2 -

I have been traveling today and have fires to put out before I respond to this post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?92689-Zen-Gardner-Exposed-Spotlight-on-Alt-Media&p=1092807&viewfull=1#post1092807) but I did want to quickly post back that this was a very good post. I hope to start responding again tonight. Again, thanks for the very good post.

[Daozen]

in fact, any large scale movement is questionable for me... Those are what is targeted & manipulated/CO-OPed or just taken over.
The military industrial complex has a bead on people's potentials before they manifest in themselves. They knew I had musical potential before I was a musician, and knew I would go on to make activist films before the thought had crossed my mind. They know about the potential leaders before anyone else does. Lets say Bruce Lee dies, they have an AI tracking babies to find his soul(which might not be too hard for some older souls), they would have him psyche profiled from his past life to some degree, and psyche profiled from this life also before he even identifies his own identity. This is the current state of technology in the military industrial complex.


https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-5CcOT4ELuFM/V7ve-VG12zI/AAAAAAAADW8/cND0qu-mvr4CTZ5cnG_6SSVIYYRn34g_gCPcB/s1600/Remote-Neural-Monitoring-Thought-Surveillance-NSA-CIA.png

Alt media has always been a good bit bastardized IMO. DARPA didn't give us the internet without a contingency plan to counter a truth movement. Electromagnetic mind control programs have been taking place for like half a century. They have largely gone by completely secretly.



Lots of discernment tests for us out there..
Yep.

I think what you said about soul-tracking, and knowing what people will do in the future is true, but many people miss the fact that there are 'white hat' civilizations with similar, if not better technology who are providing protection for potential displacers. We're still here, right? If it was just "DARPA and the NWO against the helpless people." we would have all been dead and imprisoned long ago. There is a balance of forces, and a wide field of free choice. The mountains and subterranean are laced with several civilizations, some bad, some good. What swings the balance are the choices we make in our daily lives: what we focus on, what we create, what food and nutrition we eat, what timeline we build.

If DARPA are so all-knowing, why is the internet out of their control, and why is there an explosion of benevolent technology in the public domain right now? 3D printing, hydroponics, organic food, advanced nutrition, longevity technology, fintech. All these movements can be partially subverted, but they can't stop it all.

The faction in control of the media in these parts does not want people to know about our benevolent neighbours. They will do anything to deny or distract from their existence. The only writing they let through are chanelled materials, which superficially raise interest, but ultimately kill hope, because they are so obviously unbelievable.

What do your sources tell you about this subject? It's worth considering this viewpoint without immediately dismissing it as a "Psy-op".

[Omni]

What do your sources tell you about this subject? It's worth considering this viewpoint without immediately dismissing it as a "Psy-op".
All valid points that I agree with. My "sources" (<-- your language, not mine) are exactly that, some of the counterbalance.

[boutreality]

I'm comfortable saying we have a psyop with tentacles that reach into all areas of the Alt Media; any topic they cover.

When it comes to basic behaviors, when you have a marketplace made up of individuals that need to produce a story; a body of themes that will intrigue if just enough so-called "details" are relayed regularly enough, you need enough characters to tell that story.
So the new "whistleblower" gets added to the cycle and once in, they become part of the "if one of us goes down we all go down- for fraud; for giving our endorsements to one another, many of whom, it seems are of disreputable character to say the least.

A self-enforced paradigm; hardly anyone in the Alt Media scene or community needs to knowingly be a psyop agent; the model runs itself.

When the area covered is the New Age- I believe that the NWO has a vested interest in keeping that cycle going. I just posted what are solid enough links to conclude that the New Age movement was founded and still exists today as part of Nazi/NWO system of mental and emotional controls, "brain-being washing" at the end of my "Nazis, NWO and the New Age thread." -It's a troubling conclusion to make, but the link is there. I link to the post here, check it out, if interested.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?92604-NAZIS-NWO-the-NEW-AGE&p=1092946&viewfull=1#post1092946

Refer to the self enforcing paradigm model -not every New Age personality needs to know they are being used to control others- and the same, "If doubt is cast on one it hurt us all. -In the pocketbook."

[Chester]

Hi Citizen No2 -

I have been traveling today and have fires to put out before I respond to this post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?92689-Zen-Gardner-Exposed-Spotlight-on-Alt-Media&p=1092807&viewfull=1#post1092807) but I did want to quickly post back that this was a very good post. I hope to start responding again tonight. Again, thanks for the very good post.

Hi, after carefully considering going further in this thread, a bigger picture view fell into place. I realize that my responses would continue descending into a morass of details which (maybe) I have finally learned serves only one purpose... that being to distract attention from the things that actually matter most (at least to me and perhaps a few others whose experience I respect).

[boutreality]

Sam-

As a thread, I feel the Alt Community is being served well- a depository of questionable figures that promulgate Alternative stories who, once found to be of "diminished character, " have doubt cast on all info they provided.

Is that the agenda? - To negate valid contributions once allegations against these persons are proven? Or is there a larger network of interest at work through the Alt Media? -As I suggest in my last post here.

Trusting your discernment regarding the value of anything you'd add to this thread, for whatever reasons you see as valid, I hope we can agree that you resolving to follow what sources you consider valid (kudos there- needed to be said) does not undo this thread's worth.

[TargeT]

I think what you said about soul-tracking, and knowing what people will do in the future is true, but many people miss the fact that there are 'white hat' civilizations with similar, if not better technology who are providing protection for potential displacers. We're still here, right? If it was just "DARPA and the NWO against the helpless people." we would have all been dead and imprisoned long ago. There is a balance of forces,

Or, it could be..

That "they" are very small and very few in number

and WE are very great in number...

I cannot think like "they" I couldn't do what they do & I like to hope that this is how 99% of people are.

in my mind they are loosing control because, it's damn hard to plan for all the contingencies present in a 7 BILLION+ mind sphere..

The internet is our power source currently, but that's only with half of the worlds population using it... HALF!

I think a case could certainly be built that the majority of actions are human based & the slippage of control is due to their dogmatic ways that were never designed for near instantaneous communication between the common man; however, I still am not convinced that we are "winning" by any means, as the average person still watches TV and parrots what they hear the next day... I think "TPTB" are still firmly in control with their long standing basses of power that have amassed so much kinetic energy it will be very hard to displace them.

[boutreality]

iIm about to the point where simply listing names is fraudulent Personalities suffices, here's one:

In 1991, Ralph Amrigon changed his name to Alex Collier, after being released from federal prison on tax fraud charges, (working as an accountant without a license) and then began lecturing about alleged alien contact with the Pleaidians.
He made dozens of specific predictions based on what the aliens told him. None of his predictions came true.

I can see Daozen's point, "It's the viewer/listener's fault for giving him an audience." Still he should have been dis-invited from the "circuit of Alien/Conspiracy Expos long before he went relatively silent, but to fill the roster of speakers- as opposed to the backers of such events coming out against him.

Perhaps it's as simple as a For Entertainment Purposes Only message.
What's sad is that this simple addition would do a lot, but is likely to be fought tooth and nail.

[Enola]

I'd almost forgotten about Chanter. I listened to him for a bit in May, before I started listening to the "Out of darkness, Into the light" podcast guy, who's better.

I'm not that interested in Alternative media drama. I'd rather learn about something useful, like development of consciousness or alternative health. But Chanter isn't so bad, he brings some common sense to the table, which doesn't really hurt.

[Daozen]

Re: Alex Collier, he is better than most. It was the Andromedans, not the Pleiadeans, BTW. Personally, I think the US Gov should gtfo of people's financial business. If I want to employ a friend to do my accounts, that's my own choice. Is it true you can't even open a restaurant in the US without a license? lol. Living in Taiwan, that seems ridiculous. My area is full of home-kitchens and street food stalls. So personally, I wouldn't hold a past sentence for 'financial fraud' against anyone. The IRS are the biggest frauds in the US. It's true none of his predictions came true, but he was one of the first to talk about the Draco, on record, back in the 1990s, even before Icke, IIRC.

But how would you disinvite anyone in a decentralized marketplace? The large conspiracy forums are *finally*doing a good job policing the contactee circle-jerk (CCJ). Nearly all of them are mutally-validating frauds. Back in 2014, when I started my project, I was sad and surprised that none of them would touch my story with a ten foot barge pole. Especially given my account is far less outlandish than what most of them are pedalling. I never claimed to have left the surface world. But there's a deadly silence surrounding my thread, despite its high view counts. I thought initially it was because I can be a crank, but them I see Space Adventurer Corey Goode acting like a Royal Putz on at least 2 forums, and he still gets validated.

Now I'm relieved that none of these jokers interviewed me, cos all I see is a bunch of liars with their thumbs stuck up each others base chakras.








:rofl: :lol:

[boutreality]

Stewart Swerdlow, might we work to prove or disprove this allegation?

I have heard about Swerdlow schemes where he tells female clients they have to have sex with him to be deprogrammed, on the Mysterious Universe (podcast); same allegation on same podcast against Preston Nichols- though in his case I believe it was young men. Info is hard to find; apparently a 30 pg report on Swerdlow, including an account of three women making the "sex-to-deprogram" allegation on the same day, is available through cyberspace cafe, but I don't have ioncube or whatever that is to access the forum.
(I'm asked to install it; can't figure out how to make i work- I'm not so good with the old "glowing typewriter." )

From Post by xythos () at Cult Education Institute:

"Swerdlow has written some more material, notably "The True Reality of Sexuality" upon which Stewart Swerdlow claims that his mind-controlled (and programmed) clients need to be 'deprogrammed' by coercing them to have sex with him. And this applies to both men and women.

His workshops, especially the 'insider's group' are "specifically" and extra 'programmed' to help destroy the Illuminati. In order to be able to join that group, the Expansions member has to cough up $10,000 and is told that s/he is "very important" to help fight the dark powers and the 'take-over of the planet' by alien forces and entities.

His Hyperspace Techniques were stolen from a blind woman when Swerdlow was sitting in jail for embezzlement of funds."

link: https://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?12,63260,104175

I found a jail record (inmate # included; released in Victoria), but nothing on what he was charged with.

Apparently my Nazis = the New Age thread fell out of popularity? So be it. Like I've always maintained, I'm not worried about being believed.
(-Especially not thinking that I have to be believed in order to be effective, that's the old trapdoor to an impotent -paranoid- hamster wheel.)

Besides, there's Manitds talking to old "Simon Says"!

"...Heard a singer on the radio, late last night, said he's gonna kick the darkness 'till it bleeds daylight... I believe in love." -"God Part II" by U2

[Biff]

More and more it seems that alt media has become a cottage industry of fabulists who tell lurid tales of their allegedly once-depraved lives, like illuminati insiders, or off world adventurers, who are now converts to telling their audiences what they want to believe and making a pile of money in the process, or else just leading a fantasy life.

Too many outlets have become a credulous, agenda-driven media that helps visible-from-space frauds put one over on people who really want to hear an awesome story that titillates with lurid tales of Sin or Summerland, confirm them in their ideological beliefs about their culture war enemies, and tells them how freaking awesome they are.

It's so bad it makes me think I've been had for a long time, believing in contactees and insiders who never prove themselves. I'm kind of over it at this point, and only follow the scene as a curiosity.

[Enola]

Too many fantasists.

[OnyxKnight]

I believe Wilcock claims a "direct-secure-secret" connection to Cobra/BLue Avians etc.
Who's to say he and cohorts did not make this up, given his track record I say it's time we conclude that's more likely than his constant justifications for perpetual false predictions and deflated expectations.
It's why I compare him to the seed-money preachers I was taking about, that's why he does this- there is money to be taken and people to be had.

I may be at least partially guilty for that Blue Avians nonsense Wilcock and Goode started spewing. Though guilty would be a misnomer here I guess. As far as I know nobody else has mentioned them prior to them other than myself. I was the first one who mentioned anything about blue avian (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?15909-My-ET-contact-experiences--discussions-Q-A-panel-etc.-&p=170042&viewfull=1#post170042) aliens back in 2011. Though they had a name for reference - Danago. The term blue avians was a result of English not being my first language, in my native tongue it is close to being aviatic, flying, or floating (the term I was trying to translate in English). Quite a while later did I discover that in English, anything with the word avian relates to birds specifically. Not the sky or air.

Or Simon Parks who answered a question of mine by referencing my own material provided here regarding the planet Tharsos. Nobody other than me has talked about it, and out of the blue he comes up with it and doesn't bring it up ever again, despite the importance it has in the grander scope of things? Not to mention I caught him checking out my posts and my main experiences thread via his profile activity, not long after he logged on to read my question (which means he used the forum search function to look up "Tharsos" here and elsewhere on the net, before answering).

There's also another case where something I said was taken out of context, twisted and added upon, or sometimes even directly quoted, as somebody's original experience or testimony, when in fact wasn't true. Like the case with the Orbs around the Sun of which I've spoken, which many have connected with either the Andromedans or with the KBA variously, and Wilcock and Goode have not stood idly either, and they connected them with their version of the "Blue Avians" as well.

And yet another, where my information about Tau Ceti and Epsilon Eridani in particular was misused as somebody else's experience-based information gather, mainly Sunfire & John Kettler. Most of you will be familiar with at least the latter. Sunfire/Sunvibe later joined Drake and this character called Tanaath and that trio also did dubious things with varied people's information, presenting them as their own, on a radio podcast. Don't remember the host though, I think his name started with M. He was an okay dude from all the things I could deduce. He was just probably with the wrong crowd.

In any case, Sunfire was collecting information from me via Skype and disseminating it on varied blogs and podcasts as her own (I dunno, thinking that perhaps I don't frequent as many alternative media places as most others might?)

Guess what John Kettler, Sunfire (She had/has a different handle here), Simon Parks, and Goode have in common with each other, and with me? I am and they were/are part of this forum! At least at one point in time. Goode even admitted he was going through my posts and thread, when answering somebody's question here, but that he was just "skimming through it", which would be the only true thing he has ever said since if he did pay attention, he would have seen that the blue avian aliens I mentioned are anything BUT avian, when I describe them. But that's what these people do for the most part. They collect information from varied sources and they build a narrative.

They are not interested in hearing somebody out. They are not interested in being truthseekers. They want to be heard themselves, and they want to be truthgivers. To compose their own version of the truth over which they will make money off of. Alternative media gurus have been and always will be, their prime ambition for engaging with this audience.

All of the above is one of the main reasons I have stopped expanding on my experiences and why I have even refused to correct certain errors I have made in the dissemination of the material. And I believe that's the reason why so many others are silent as well, or have given up. Because we see no point. If others are going to just take elements they find appealing from certain sources where the information is provided for free, and construct a story out of that and then sell it to people for money and fame, then drying off the well, at least the portion of it that we individually contribute to, is the most logical action we can make.



And I still blame platform providers for this. Forums aside, I'm talking about a popular media platform, where you present audio-visual information, many eyes stuck on to it. And at the same time presenting people as vetted in being who they claim they are, with no apparent dark history.

[Wide-Eyed]

Wilcock .....I compare him to the seed-money preachers I was taking about, that's why he does this- there money to be taken and people to be had.
Fulford too

I couldn't agree more.

these toxic individuals energetically leech from everyone who spends time on their material; I wish more people were aware of how bad things like this are.

The Alt media seems rife with these types.. its sad really.

I heard that he had a role in introducing Fulford back when DW was on about the "trillions" of gold in Asian banks and a lawsuit that would bring a windfall of money to the entire world, or something just as unbelievable.
I wonder what past the two might share.
I googled allegations against Wilcock and they did not come easy.

That must take money, maybe he spends his donations on Google list priority buys; or now that he's on the History channel they buy it for him.

it stinks of CO-INTEL-PRO (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO)....... we already know what google is doing to election based searches (hillary bias)... that is CERTAINLY not the only way they skew information..



........the best way to control your subjects information is to BE their source....


I put many Alt "stars" (alex jones, Ron Paul etc..) in this category as well.

in fact, any large scale movement is questionable for me... Those are what is targeted & manipulated/CO-OPed or just taken over.


Lots of discernment tests for us out there..

This is a very good interview from a RESEARCHER not a whistle blower and it had it's own thread started and it gets very little views. Hmmm not very exciting reading researcher-ed stuff I guess . Joseph P. Farrell has a great term he coined for us , and I include myself , as the UFOOLOGY community. His work is all footnoted and done the old fashioned way research and sourced. Boring perhaps but it is pretty thorough, 28 books and counting.
w4P8Qk9NyA4

[Wide-Eyed]

w4P8Qk9NyA4


Quote Posted by PathWalker (here)
Thank you for this very important interview, one of the more important and essential interviews for beginners introduction to awakening.

This is definitely to put on the hall of fame for awakening/disclosure material.

The delightful interviewer is subject expert and very intelligent.

Starts listen at 03:10 past commercials.
- Introducing Joseph Farrell and his 25 books
- History brief how he started and why, researching alternative narrative
- The Nazi equivalent to DARPA basis to many modern weapons and arms.
- Referencing the Roswell crash to Nazi technology from Argentina
- Explains the methodology for his research
- Tensor calculus by Gabriel Kron to explain electric engineering, provides mastery on gravity and free energy
- 1944 Nazi created nuclear explosion experiments, but failed with bomb delivery
- Why Nazi did not reverse engineer ET technology.
- Why the Roswell crash narrative is about ET...
- Explain the Nazi in-state in Argentina
- Review Richter nuclear fusion break trough, copied by the USA
- Nuclear explosion yield depends on time and location
- How the Nazi are protected and the secret services + finance + mafia
- President Truman establish the secret finance system, that spawned the ssp and breakaway civilization
- breakaway civilization is a Nazi mafia
- Explain the breakaway civilization finance and interests history
- Nuclear explosion effect cross dimensional, and nuclear tests
- Story about Ben Rich (we found technology to take ET home...) and its implications political and social.
- The cause for secrecy and control
- Closed system science and economy vs Open system
- Elite transition to open system economy
- The point in population reduction and mafia factions model of conflicting agendas
- Intervention of ancient ET (gods) in the elite
- Breakaway civilization aspect for dealing with ET intervention
- Refer to Alex Jones sincerity and connectivity
- Trump connectivity and insider information used to eliminate opponents
- NASA and the EM drive, nuclear reactor size of a soccer ball, explain the worp drive
- Current race to space, is a ledge for smoother technology disclosure
- Elite are preparing the transition to new technologies
- Interplanetary war and the current exopolitical situation
- History of human race genome
- Movies as propaganda
- Nazi Germany founding the 2nd Atlantis
- Speculate Nazi are still in Argentina explains why
- Describe the Nazi inner state in Argentina
- The global Nazi mafia all over the world, beyond state governments
- Russian researcher foretasted the 911 attack.
- Mechanics of the global mafia/cabal
- Gary McKinnon whistleblower and political ramifications
- Electric universe theory and its application
- Introduce his conscious/spirituality to his research and reality
- Conscious and intention interaction with the environment
- Edge of conscious merge into science
- Human destination to the stars
- Elite is aware of and looking for conscious science and black magic
- Self explored conscious path
- Analogical thinking is fundamental
- American RV program, conscious is not connected to body
- Warn and caution from practice of RV and channeling
- Challenge of standard history narrative

Lots of references and leads.


I would suggest this complimentary interview with Franco DeNicola with similar topics:

Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qm2Cz8NExco
Great interview of JP Farrell and great job with summary , book mark this ones Avalonians, It's a must listen IMHO

[boutreality]

I very much enjoyed that interview, and enjoy most of Farrell's interviews; most of my links between the Nazis, the NWO and the New Age, are based on Farrell; Peter Levenda and Jim Marrs work. Those three have careers that involve research and have a number of books to prove it. They do the work.

I know my findings are valid but that's only through my experience, I'm not going to do the research to ties it to something all on my own; if I did I'd become a researcher because to me that term means something. I'm not looking to make a career out of my findings, just to communicate them. In my latest thread I sought to tie them to findings by others. I chose Farrell, Levenda and Marrs because of their long standing contributions and how each strives to make clear where the line between their own speculation and what they can prove as fact is.

Onyxknight-
Good point on the Alt Media Personalities sourcing their info from forums like this and repackaging it as original info we must (can only) get from them. In a larger scheme, in a sense of decent people v charlatans, I see it as them falling on their own sword.

[Enola]

I don't understand the appeal of Stewart Swerdlow and obviously dodgy types like that. I can't take Alex Jones seriously, either. I only really like David Icke, he has more of a clean/moral feeling and seems mostly sincere.

But even he must be working under some kind of agenda to be in the position he's in. Especially as he's so good at it and already had a media platform when he started out. It's funny, it's almost like it was decreed that information had to get out and they had to get someone good for the role.

I saw an interview he did like 25 years ago. At the end of the interview he and the host who grilled him looked at each other a bit...friendly. Like they were in the same club. Just my observations.

[Chester]

Alas a post emerged -

Anything that is an obvious current "threat" (in whatever form that threat might take) to those who are far more likely to succumb to that threat (those I refer to as "the vulnerable") is the only concern where I may raise my voice. If their harmful behaviors are of a serial nature I will raise my voice loudly. I will also raise my voice up to those who enable the behavior which, in some cases, could be seen as equal or worse because they know better and have the wherewithal to know better.

It doesn't matter to me if they have become some high profile individual in the alternative community or not. If an individual or group threatens the vulnerable, I will raise my voice (and those who know me know this is true).

Alternatively -

Anyone (or any group) that may have done wrong in their past and who has since done the right thing and has taken serious steps to resolve the issues that generated the unacceptable behaviors - for me - is an inspiration and I encourage them to continue to do the right thing.

I, personally, write no one off. Having said that, I still use my best judgment when assessing the risks I take with any individual. I am still learning each and every day how better to do this. I assess the strength of any current, known threat. I assess the risk with regards to those who may have a checkered past. I measure this with regards to what I feel is a duty – that love and kindness includes giving folks second chances.

Each case is different. In my opinion, there is no blanket ruleset that would cover each and every situation.

Trial and conviction by labeling is perhaps one of the worst behaviors of all and threatens the vulnerable by ensuring the continuation of the dynamic of the very environment that we have today (and have had perhaps for millennia).

If someone with “a past” (probably just about everyone by the way) wishes to share their story... featuring what they did to make positive changes, I am interested in hearing their stories. If they don't, that makes no difference to me regardless of what else they do, specifically regardless of what role they may emerge to play in the alternative community as long as they have achieved a significant resolution to the underlying problems that caused them to act in ways harmful to others and themselves. Especially if they have an exceptional track record ever since they changed their life.

If, in addition, they return to behaviors which are clearly harmful to others, then I may again raise my voice and perhaps far louder than before.

I expect others to do this to me and for me if the same return to unacceptable behavior might happen with me. I would hope my friends would do this if indeed I begin (or return) to behave in ways harmful to others.

Yet I will never condemn anyone for the rest of their lives in ways that prevents them from producing self-redemption and true, lasting positive changes. I certainly cannot do this to their eternal spirit (the individuated being which continues beyond the death of their body)… and I say this with this caveat - if the spirit being exists... (and note: that the individuated spirit's existence is part of my operational assumption set – I just don’t tell others what they should “believe” when it comes to un-provable, other-worldly matters).

The bottom line is that I do not see the death of one's physical body as being a valid delineation point for doing so. So I don't condemn anyone in their current lifetime and I don't condemn anyone beyond their current lifetime. Either of those is playing "god" and we have enough demi-gods already.

As to the risks I would feel comfortable extending with regards to anyone that has a checkered past, I assess those risks on a case by case basis and constantly reassess as time marches on. I take responsibility for the risks I take and sometimes pay for by learning some pretty tough lessons, but when it comes to the vulnerable, that is another matter. I feel I have a duty to call out those who clearly take advantage of the vulnerable.

A final comment - I include myself in the set of folks with checkered pasts. I also still make mistakes though not the kinds of mistakes I made when I was young - clearly harmful to others as well as to myself... for example, mistakes along the lines mentioned by Citizen No2 above.

end of my editorial post.

[boutreality]

But how would you disinvite anyone in a decentralized marketplace? The large conspiracy forums are *finally*doing a good job policing the contactee circle-jerk (CCJ). Nearly all of them are mutally-validating frauds. Back in 2014, when I started my project, I was sad and surprised that none of them would touch my story with a ten foot barge pole. Especially given my account is far less outlandish than what most of them are pedalling.

How's about a link to your thread? It never hurts. And don't take silence as an affront, some people just can't orient themselves the the view. I know my threads aren't coming from anywhere people expect; also I could care less to dedicate the amount of time needed to word them any better- just getting a word out.

Consider your sharing something like how I see mine; making info available to those few that may make actual use of it, and less a "now we have something to talk about." Not to mention the closer to valid it is, the more potentially debilitating it is be to the system they strive to keep in place including the "discount accountability" command.

CCJ! haHA! -That was a nice one.

Sam Hunter-

I'll take you at your word that you did the work and improved yourself.

That's great, might you be using a raw-nerve level of sensitivity based on your own experience and applying it to this thread topic?

We're dealing with a method of operating that has the undeserved support of what has become a market. There's either 1) An agenda orchestrating it, as some here have suggested, or 2) Simply a blatant lack of due diligence that needs to stop if we actually expect truth from Alt Media sources. Citing the previously mentioned self-enforcing paradigm, it's likely both.

[Daozen]

But how would you disinvite anyone in a decentralized marketplace? The large conspiracy forums are *finally*doing a good job policing the contactee circle-jerk (CCJ). Nearly all of them are mutally-validating frauds. Back in 2014, when I started my project, I was sad and surprised that none of them would touch my story with a ten foot barge pole. Especially given my account is far less outlandish than what most of them are pedalling.

How's about a link to your thread? It never hurts. And don't take silence as an affront, some people just can't orient themselves the the view. I know my threads aren't coming from anywhere people expect; also I could care less to dedicate the amount of time needed to word them any better- just getting a word out.

Consider your sharing something like how I see mine; making info available to those few that may make actual use of it, and less a "now we have something to talk about." Not to mention the closer to valid it is, the more potentially debilitating it is be to the system they strive to keep in place including the "discount accountability" command.

CCJ! haHA! -That was a nice one.



The link is here:

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?73873-Contact-with-Agartha.-Project-Freedom.

There are a few things I'd change since August 2014, but the information remains as relavent now as it was in 2014. Check the slideshow on grassroots technologies, and think what it would do to the social order if these simple ideas hit critical mass. Iodine, Liposonal Vit C and other nutritional products like magnesium could eventually lose the pharmaceutical cartels billions.

Actually I am fine with the silence, as it pushed me to learn programming. But I wonder why people are always being led to focus on short-term-fear or short-term-hope, and are never encouraged to take the long, slow, steady path.

[Chester]

We're dealing with a method of operating that has the undeserved support of what has become a market.

There's either 1) An agenda orchestrating it, as some here have suggested, or 2) Simply a blatant lack of due diligence that needs to stop if we actually expect truth from Alt Media sources.

or 3) as stated quite well by Bill Ryan in this post here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?92689-Zen-Gardner-Exposed-Spotlight-on-Alt-Media&p=1091876&viewfull=1#post1091876) -


The answer is one I'd expect everyone here to understand -- especially after six years.

We all (by and large, with some clear exceptions) simply do the best we can. Everyone does, who has integrity.

We're not the NSA, we don't have mail- and phone-tapping facilities, and we don't have Private Investigators on call. So we have to use our best judgment when someone comes to us and says: "Hey, I have a story." (That's a little glib. The messages we get of that nature are very often way more complex than that. Personally, I reject maybe 95% of them, and they never see the light of day in any form.)

It's always a judgment call, and different personalities make different judgments, for different reasons. Most people reading this will be well aware that Kerry Cassidy and I did not always agree on the credibility of witnesses, by any means. It was to a large degree disagreements about witness credibility that split Camelot, in the end.

It's hard (and rather unfair) to talk about this in general terms. Sometimes, we never met the person claiming to have had important experiences or information, at all, and everything was done remotely. (Maybe, even, a published interview, as in the case of Peter Levenda. I've never met him personally, at all.) On other occasions, we got to know a witness really, really well, over long periods of time, for literally many hundreds of hours, on and off-record, in person, as in the case of Henry Deacon.

If you'd like to ask more specific questions about specific witnesses -- what I knew, what I felt I knew, and the judgments I personally made, and why -- then please do. But your post here sounded like a generalized, unsubstantiated criticism of a lot of well-intentioned (and sometimes dangerous) work, and I'd suggest it was of very limited value.

In fact, it was actually a kind of subtle smear. You know this, and it was neither kind, nor appreciated. I'd have rather more respect if you came out with your own real name, your own real photo, and your own real e-mail address. Maybe, even, the real name of your own real dog.

And, of course, if you did some real interviews with (maybe) real witnesses. Then, as they say, walk a mile (or even a few hundred feet) in the shoes of people who are trying to do real work for the benefit of others.

We take the bullets... not you.

As Daozen pointed out, perhaps those of us who are capable should take some responsibility for our own ability to think critically. In addition, perhaps we should allow others to do so as well. When it comes to cases where the clearly vulnerable are at risk regarding an ongoing threat, maybe we should do what families and friends do for alcoholics / addicts. That being "an intervention." Of course those with experience in these matters also know that the families and friends who do this must be unified.

That is why I called upon some Alt Media researchers/interviewers to unify with regards to Simon so that perhaps he might face up to his issues, get some help and stop being a threat to the vulnerable who get involved with the alternative community.

As for Zen, it is clear (at least to me) that he long ago has done this "work on self" but I emphasize, this is just my opinion. I base this on my impression from the video I cited as well as that I have yet to unearth a single report that says Zen has acted in any way inappropriately since he left the CoG cult 17 years ago. In addition, I am unaware and have yet to find any reports (much less evidence) that he did so when he was part of that cult. Understanding the situation he was in and the power of a cult over an adherent, I can also understand how difficult it may have been to deal with the reality of what was going on yet he did try and change the culture (if his story is true) and eventually he extracted himself and his family.

[boutreality]

Sam Hunter-

I appreciate the feedback, but Bill's overview is not in fact a 3rd option. It's an explanation Bill wrote in response to one inquiry. I never sought to lay blame on Bill. I can't speak for CNo2, but I'm not sure he did either - I think emotions ran high during that interchange without a negative intent on either side, those words do not invalidate the other 2 options.

Your idea above, "an intervention" (for the more gullible of those interested in the Alt Media) is what this thread represents.

[MissMalin78]

We are all seeking the truth and it's very easy to fall into that everybody is truthfull, but it is necessery to do research on you're own and try to see things from many different perspectives. 👍

[Chester]

be warned... monster post to follow

Hi boutreality

You posted -



We're dealing with a method of operating that has the undeserved support of what has become a market.

I appreciate your opinion that the support is undeserved. I don't see it that way in part because if it were not be for the Alternative Media... specifically David Icke and then Project Camelot and most recently this very forum, I most likely would be dead (no exaggeration) or would have sold out my own heart to accept "the big lie/movie" so that I could reconcile remaining functionally alive.

Having said that, there's always room for improvement (both from the information delivery sources as well as those who are among the target market). Perhaps you have some practical ideas which could improve things and if so, it would be good to read them.

You then made the following statement as fact -



There's either 1) An agenda orchestrating it, as some here have suggested, or 2) Simply a blatant lack of due diligence that needs to stop if we actually expect truth from Alt Media sources. Citing the previously mentioned self-enforcing paradigm, it's likely both.

I then posted another possibility (in my response post here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?92689-Zen-Gardner-Exposed-Spotlight-on-Alt-Media&p=1093464&viewfull=1#post1093464)) which was presented by someone who actually has the experience to make such a statement. I characterized this as 3) since you left it out.

Here was your reply - (I am separating each sentence yet leaving the entire quote as to retain proper context)



I appreciate the feedback, but Bill's overview is not in fact a 3rd option.

It's an explanation Bill wrote in response to one inquiry.

I never sought to lay blame on Bill. I can't speak for CNo2, but I'm not sure he did either -

I think emotions ran high during that interchange without a negative intent on either side, those words do not invalidate the other 2 options.

Your idea above, "an intervention" (for the more gullible of those interested in the Alt Media) is what this thread represents.

I will begin with this -



I appreciate the feedback, but Bill's overview is not in fact a 3rd option.

First, you chose the word "option," I did not. I presented this as another possible valid explanation (as did Bill) with regards to why for us to expect near perfect vetting by the Alternative Media is quite impractical.

You presented two possible explanations yet presented them as an either/or or both that left no room for additional possibilities. This comes across a bit authoritarian and leaves no room for discussion. My response attempted to expand the possibility set and open up the subject for further discussion.

I found Bill's response reflecting realistic practicality.

In addition, several posts in this thread have emphasized the importance that we (the audience of the Alternative Media, and in some cases, participants in the Alternative Community) have with regards to how we integrate the information presented into our world views. Don't we have responsibility for what we integrate and how that integration manifests?

Yes, this responsibility can be more difficult for those who have various vulnerabilities. My opinion is that information providers and information sources should be called out when it becomes blatantly clear they are becoming harmful to the vulnerable. In rare extreme cases, measures might be taken to isolate a situation that gets out of hand. This may suggest a community wide "intervention" might be something called for. As is evident, the Alternative Community is unregulated (not that I am suggesting it should be) so perhaps there is something to be said for the community acting on behalf of the more vulnerable to shut down a proven serial threat.

In the case of Simon, the situation became extreme and some folks did the right thing and eventually called him out for his repeated unacceptable behavior. Eventually, the reports became so prolific, the odds that the general idea of what was going on (and may still be) was untrue is almost zero percent. Yet since I have mentioned a specific case, I learned a lesson when observing how this particular forum handled the matter. That being the understandable restraint employed by this forum until there was no longer any doubt something needed to be said.

Sadly, it appeared to many (myself in particular (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?88999-Our-experience-with-Simon-Parkes-as-a-counselor&p=1086077&viewfull=1#post1086077)) that Simon didn't get the memo and showed no true remorse and for that reason some calls were made to those in the alternative community who feature Simon to stop as Simon had been repeatedly harvesting the vulnerable in the community. Again - this is an extreme and recent (if not still ongoing) situation.

Yet this thread starts with "Zen Gardener Exposed" in the title. Only secondary to that is the "Spotlight on the Alt Media." That this thread is now exploring that spotlight, what concerns me is that too many posts in this thread conflate Simon's situation with Zen Gardener's situation. In addition, the 'trial by internet' of Zen Gardener (where many here have convicted him and condemned the human being he is today such that his contribution to the Alt Community should be halted) is far more unacceptable than some folks make out to be "poor vetting." I then pointed out that if we "hang" (metaphor) all sources because of "a past" we eliminate a significant portion of those who make up the basket of 'experiencers / whistle blowers / witnesses / abductees / defectors / "alt community information sources"' from presenting what they have to offer as many of these folks have checkered pasts.

I would far rather take personal responsibility for how information impacts me than significantly reduce the information by eliminating sources just because of their pasts. This is not a black and white matter. Each case is handled differently and, if an individual's expectations are not met by what they wish with regards to any information provider then perhaps they should get their information elsewhere.


It's an explanation Bill wrote in response to one inquiry.

It's a response made by Bill that covered the entire reality of being an Alternative Media information source. That Bill's response quoted one particular inquiry, does not eliminate its broad application. That you do not see this and instead respond with "It's an explanation Bill wrote in response to one inquiry" is concerning.


I never sought to lay blame on Bill. I can't speak for CNo2, but I'm not sure he did either -

No one I am aware of said you did and no one that I am aware of suggested you did, yet the innuendo found in some of the various posts in this thread (including at least one of the posts made by Citizen No2) is perhaps what prompted Bill to make his response.



I think emotions ran high during that interchange without a negative intent on either side, those words do not invalidate the other 2 options.

Again, no one said that (I certainly did not say the other two possibilities you suggested were invalid). To state this as you have implies this was stated or insinuated. I find this as a pattern in many of your posts and I wish I knew why this is occurring.

So again... all realistic possibilities are valid. Including combinations of possibilities. And this is assuming it is realistic for the tremendously underfunded and under resourced Alternative Media to do much better than they are already doing.


Your idea above, "an intervention" (for the more gullible of those interested in the Alt Media) is what this thread represents.

A call to the Alternative Media to do better vetting is one thing. If that is the primary intent of this thread, I am all for it. But if we are going to make that call, then we should also be ready to provide ideas as to how that can be practically implemented.

I have not read one single idea in this thread that will improve the vetting of information sources brought to the members of the Alternative Community by the Alternative Media.

(opinion) - In this thread I have seen someone metaphorically hung as an example of how the Alternative Media information sources are failing us which in my opinion is no example at all and in my opinion folks should be ashamed of convicting others who have positively changed their life in relation to their pasts of several decades ago.

In fact, folks who condemn others like this are (in my opinion) in their own way being harmful and I say this far more delicately than I would otherwise. How do we expect the world to change when we are led by the same mindset as was behind the Inquisition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition)? (end of opinion)

The undertone I feel from this thread (and I emphasize this is all and only how this thread has impacted me) is one of self-righteousness and unrealistic expectations that so far has offered no solutions to what may not actually be a resolvable "problem."

I, personally, have no issue with justified finger pointing (noting what is justified is subjectively derived) yet to do so while ignoring the reality of resources available for the ideal to manifest while simultaneously offering not one single practical solution suggests (to me) there is the possibility of other agendas being explored here which a thread like this might feed into.

[Citizen No2]

The undertone I feel from this thread (and I emphasize this is all and only how this thread has impacted me) is one of self-righteousness and unrealistic expectations that so far has offered no solutions to what may not actually be a resolvable "problem."


If that's what you are feeling Sam, then that's what you are feeling.

I don't think that sniffing out liars and exposing them is an un-realistic expectation. Whether this is applicable to Don Ferguson I'm not sure, my attention has fallen on to someone else of late.

Self-righteousness? I dunno, I'm just doing what's right for me.


R

[Chester]

Hi Citizen No2, I did not get that self righteous feeling from you (for the record).

[Daozen]

The issue is confusing because a discussion about corruption in the alt media has erupted in a thread about Zen Gardner, who may (or may not) deserve the attention he was given, and definitely doesn't deserve the inflammatory headlines directed at him.

When it comes to the others in the CCJ, we are talking about people who: Have intel/illuminati backgrounds, sell healing devices for over 10 grand, repeatedly give out duff information, mislead people, + cheerlead covert global government. Re: Global Government, we are dealing with an alt media set up to distract and seduce.

Exposing people like that is in no way self-righteousness, IMO. But I agree with Sam we need a framework and concrete ideas, otherwise the conversation will go round in circles.

I have an idea to start tackling these people, based on these videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtW72nT7cYQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1S0oObHT0c

Except the questions will be: "Can you swear you are not taking money from an intelligence agency," "Can you swear you are not working to imposed debt based banking on Earth." etc etc. I would happily sign an oath myself.

Then, respectful open letters asking people to answer questions. i.e. 10 questions for [INSERT WHISTLEBLOWERS NAME]. If 3-4 of us signed each letter, it would carry more weight.

Sam, you also had an idea about 18 months ago about vetting whistleblowers. We discussed it on a different forum.

So what other concrete ideas do people have? The media has gone from dystopian monolith to Wild West free-for-all in 20 years. Now we need frameworks and decentralized standards.

[Mods could maybe snip this discussion into another thread "Honesty in the contactee alt media" or something similar... if it wasn't too much hassle.]

[Daozen]

I think what you said about soul-tracking, and knowing what people will do in the future is true, but many people miss the fact that there are 'white hat' civilizations with similar, if not better technology who are providing protection for potential displacers. We're still here, right? If it was just "DARPA and the NWO against the helpless people." we would have all been dead and imprisoned long ago. There is a balance of forces,

I think a case could certainly be built that the majority of actions are human based & the slippage of control is due to their dogmatic ways that were never designed for near instantaneous communication between the common man; however, I still am not convinced that we are "winning" by any means, as the average person still watches TV and parrots what they hear the next day... I think "TPTB" are still firmly in control with their long standing basses of power that have amassed so much kinetic energy it will be very hard to displace them.

It could well take 50 years, that's why I'm studying longevity protocols as hard as I can. I agree that they can no longer predict what we'll do.

*

Re: the Contactee Oath, I made a rough draft here. Anyone can amend it if they feel like it.

http://piratepad.net/bVovZM01sk

[Chester]

The issue is confusing because a discussion about corruption in the alt media has erupted in a thread about Zen Gardner, who may (or may not) deserve the attention he was given, and definitely doesn't deserve the inflammatory headlines directed at him.

When it comes to the others in the CCJ, we are talking about people who: Have intel/illuminati backgrounds, sell healing devices for over 10 grand, repeatedly give out duff information, mislead people, + cheerlead covert global government. Re: Global Government, we are dealing with an alt media set up to distract and seduce.

Exposing people like that is in no way self-righteousness, IMO. But I agree with Sam we need a framework and concrete ideas, otherwise the conversation will go round in circles.

I have an idea to start tackling these people, based on these videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtW72nT7cYQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1S0oObHT0c

Except the questions will be: "Can you swear you are not taking money from an intelligence agency," "Can you swear you are not working to imposed debt based banking on Earth." etc etc. I would happily sign an oath myself.

Then, respectful open letters asking people to answer questions. i.e. 10 questions for [INSERT WHISTLEBLOWERS NAME]. If 3-4 of us signed each letter, it would carry more weight.

Sam, you also had an idea about 18 months ago about vetting whistleblowers. We discussed it on a different forum.

So what other concrete ideas do people have? The media has gone from dystopian monolith to Wild West free-for-all in 20 years. Now we need frameworks and decentralized standards.

[Mods could maybe snip this discussion into another thread "Honesty in the contactee alt media" or something similar... if it wasn't too much hassle.]

Hi, agree regarding this post.

The idea I had was not vetting. The idea is what as known as "a watchdog site." I have explored this a great deal and there are some hurdles I just can't get past. One being, how are we to be certain that those who are involved in an operational capacity with the watchdog site are not corrupted (or corruptible). The other problem is that it would take a great deal of work and require several staff members to ensure adequate coverage of the broad spectrum of alt media personalities and so unless you have a volunteer force, how would staff be reasonably compensated? This would entail the site generating revenue of some sort and in some way. How could that be done where the site could generate enough cash flow to support (reasonably) the staff and not go too far in making some sort of unneeded profit? Once profit is made, inferences would also be made that perhaps some of the ratings are dishonest and the reason behind that would be speculation that alt media personalities who generate incomes from their work may be paying off staff at the watchdog site to buy favorable reviews and favorable conclusions of investigated reports supplied by the public.

One of the ideas I had would be that all financials are completely transparent. Obviously if the site did not generate enough income to support a staff, then the staff would have to work with what may be generated and do something else to make up for the needed support income. This again opens the staff up to corruption. In fact, even if staff were properly compensated, some may still succumb to the temptation of corruption.

If somehow the site generated income above the budget required to maintain the site and pay staff a reasonable compensation for their time/effort, that additional income could be set aside for an emergency fund (in case lean times came forth) and then, if a certain minimum balance was exceeded, that money could be donated to a charity that is approved by all the members.

And then we have the problem of bias. Some staff members may have an affinity to one type of cosmological paradigm and/or a "belief" which causes them to be more favorable to one alt media personality over another.

The thing that makes a watchdog site work is that all the staff really does is receive reports from the public, research those reports and then presents their findings factually, honestly and with as little opinion as possible (of course no opinion serves best but we are dealing with humans so this may be too much to expect).

How does a site grow to the point they have covered a critical mass of alt media personalities (and where they continue to cover these personalities) while being able to cover more and more newbies as they arrive on the scene where the site starts to do the community a true service? I projected this out and to do so seems quite a feat.

I have followed a few alt media stars back in 2014 and 2015 where I created such a dossier of example after example that the specific "star" may have issues related to veracity and/or integrity. In the way a watchdog site works, I would submit these materials to the site and they would investigate my submission and decide whether it met the required standards to be written up and presented on the site. The site could also report the number of false accustaions a specific alt star has generated (which might suggest that star is being targeted by the nefarious and/or jealous competition).

The alt media participant (those of us in the public with an interest in these stars and their stories) would be able to go to the site and, for instance, look up Corey Goode. They would then find a listing of all these confirmed instances of interest. These listings are usually listed in reverse order, from the latest down to the earliest. In using Corey Goode as an example, I have a good 8 to 10 separate cases of documented information which I find to suggest he's a fraud. I would supply these documented, verifiable reports to the watchdog site. In the case of Corey, I am aware of others who also have various additional documented reports regarding Corey which, most readers would conclude suggest Corey is no "SSP participant" and instead is likely someone with a messiah complex combined with a need for attention who has discovered by capitalizing on their research and utilizing their imaginative skills, this could launch them into a "reality show" type acting career as long as they could be promoted by the right promoter. Of course, this requires a promoter who has little or no scruples and who sees the potential in a Corey Goode as to how that expands their own fame and fortune. As most are aware, Goode found this in Wilcock... as an example.

In time, the watchdog site, if managed in the best manner possible doing all it can to remain unbiased, would become a stop along the way for anyone who wishes additional information when deciding if they should take a specific media personality seriously. This could also expand to cover websites, forums, book writers and/or publishers, conventions and other "expo" type gatherings, etc.

This is a dream for me yet one I, at age 58, no longer have the energy that would be required to make the dream become a reality.


Here is an example of how a watchdog site works -

http://www.sportsbookreview.com/

Unfortunately this site has been compromised as we can see it is clearly promoting their A rated sportsbooks.

The true gold of this site is found in the small banner that says SBR Rating Guide here -

http://www.sportsbookreview.com/betting-sites/

This list can be sorted by clicking on each column's header. Note each site has a rating too (which is created by staff consensus based on all the reports (good and bad and everywhere in between).

To see what I mean by a listing of reports, find BetRoyal as an example. Notice it has a rating of D- (only one grade better than the worst, F). On the far right is a link called BetRoyal profile. By clicking into this link, one is able to see all the reports and history of grade changes for this particular sportsbook.

http://www.sportsbookreview.com/betting-sites/betroyal/

I simply showed an example of what a watchdog site does and as anyone can see from the list of several hundred sportsbooks, and the fact so many of these sportsbooks have dozens of reports, we can just imagine how much work/time/effort it would require to do this for the alt media community.

[Daozen]

I can see you've thought a lot about the pitfalls. It would help if you bullet-pointed those concerns so people could see them clearer. I just mean taking 30 seconds to press return and edit them into clearly defined sentences/paragraphs.

I actually want someone else to set up this site, so I can submit myself for review, so to speak. If no one else steps up, I may do it myself but it's not a priority.

- A wiki site would take care of the work angle. You wouldn't need 8 full time staff to maintain a wiki site. The community steps up and adds links, or they ignore it as they wish. It could be maintained with 1-2 hours volunteer work per week. That would take the money issue out of the equation. If the site occasionally asked for 50-100USD per month donations to cover fees and admin time, I wouldn't mind. 1) This is an idea for someone else. 2) If someone wants to make a speech about the evils of Paypal donations, they should disclose their own financial background before doing so, or keep silent.

- You would not assign ratings or rankings (as per your sportsbook examples), because this is where corruption creeps in, as you noticed. The sites links would be arranged in alphabetical order.

- The site would not editorialize, but just provide links to threads where questionable activity is brought up. The 'accused' contactee themselves would be free to submit a link explaining their side of the story, so everyone gets fair free speech.

- No site or person is perfect, you just have to do the best you can.

- You don't need to police the whole of the alt media, just 10 people would do for now. It's reader's responsibility to add more people.

Basically, it's just a central wiki where people can put links giving a fair overview of people's character.

While you have raised some legitamate issues, overthinking an idea can cause analysis paralysis. What's worse, 1) a contactee watchdog site with a slight, accidental bias, or 2) the situation we have now?

[Chester]

posting links doesn't help as people cover their tracks and change the data. Corey and those wittingly and unwittingly protecting him did this incessantly. Screenshots have helped but can be faked.

The SBR site I gave as an example has a staff that runs down the reports. Without that, anyone can post anything and that would only add to the distraction and also open to false reports. Competitors could be posting against their competition in a free environment such as what you suggested.

The post I wrote just flowed from my mind as a free extraction of my many thoughts. I am not motivated enough to go back and make a bullet point list... apologies.

[Daozen]

I understand you're not motivated enough to bullet point your post, this issue is not a high priority for me either.

You have made some good points, but I was thinking more of linking to secondary discussions, like the Alberto and Daniela thread, or this thread. There is no chance of discussions like this getting taken down. If they were, that would be noted by the community.

It's good to find flaws in a model, but after finding flaws, it's fair to ask: What alternative do you propose? If you don't propose any alternative, then what are you contributing?

I note that you are both issuing a call to action...:


That is why I called upon some Alt Media researchers/interviewers to unify with regards to Simon so that perhaps he might face up to his issues, get some help and stop being a threat to the vulnerable who get involved with the alternative community.


When it comes to cases where the clearly vulnerable are at risk regarding an ongoing threat, maybe we should do what families and friends do for alcoholics / addicts. That being "an intervention." Of course those with experience in these matters also know that the families and friends who do this must be unified.


Having said that, there's always room for improvement (both from the information delivery sources as well as those who are among the target market). Perhaps you have some practical ideas which could improve things and if so, it would be good to read them.


My opinion is that information providers and information sources should be called out when it becomes blatantly clear they are becoming harmful to the vulnerable. In rare extreme cases, measures might be taken to isolate a situation that gets out of hand.


I have not read one single idea in this thread that will improve the vetting of information sources brought to the members of the Alternative Community by the Alternative Media.


The undertone I feel from this thread (and I emphasize this is all and only how this thread has impacted me) is one of self-righteousness and unrealistic expectations that so far has offered no solutions to what may not actually be a resolvable "problem."

... And simultaneously shooting down all attempts to take a concrete step in any direction... All the issues you brought up (I agree with most of what you say) can be side-stepped with enough forethought.

I would prefer to have a free-for-all environment where people can post what they want. Someone links to a claim of foul play, someone else links to a counter-claim by the "accused". Make no judgements, let people decide. There would have to be some rules, I'm sure. A desk staffed with reporters would be very expensive, and easily accusable of corruption. A wiki site would simply stand as a centralized 'free for all discussion place' where links on disparate sites could be aggragated in one place, saving people time.

Basically: Do you have a plan? When I say, a plan... I mean: A website that can be described in a 5-10 line paragraph, not a long treatise on the state of the alt media. I've read dozens of gripes from all sorts of people in the past 2 years. I suggest people do someothing more concrete.

If you don't have a plan, that's no problem, but it's fair for me to ask for acheivable alternatives.

Anyway, you made some good points, which I will think hard about if I do anything. I agree the situation is an ethical and practical minefield.

[Chester]

and I am not the only one that felt this way... (note some spelling and grammar corrections made by Sam).

http://www.zengardner.com/max-igan-comments-zen-gardner-issue/

by Max Igan

People have been requesting I comment on the Zen Gardner issue, so OK, here goes….

While I most certainly have questions, and am in no way defending him, without proof of guilt I will not be jumping on the bandwagon to defame someone, nor will I be participating in any kind of trial by media, and nor will I automatically assume guilt by association. I have on occasion met other ex COG members who were in no way involved in pedophilia. I would like to see zen have a chance to publicly address the issue in an open manner without all the sensationalistic claims, rampant speculation and mass hysteria. To witness the witch hunt that has descended upon him and the trial by media that has ensued has quite frankly been appalling and also very sobering, as it show just how quickly people are prepared to thrust all logic and reason aside and simply degrade to the mentality of a lynch mob. (emphasis by Sam).

People that I have spoken to that have been associated with the COG have told me they were never sexually molested. The abuse came more in the form of slave labor as many were forced to work very hard, losing most of their teenage years and that the sexual abuse though promoted by the leader was mostly isolated and not the main focus of the cult. Naturally it is what the MSM latched onto and blew up as the main focus as is their way but that is another thing that disturbs me inasmuch as, all of the independent/alternative media people know full well that the MSM lies and distorts everything and yet in this case they are so willing to accept every word at face value. What is that about?

So looking at Don/Zens case… There are 2 distinct possibilities with Don/Zen’s involvement with the Children of God.

One, He is indeed the hideous deceptive monster his attackers are portraying him to be. This is a concept any reasonable person would perhaps question due to the many inspiring articles he has written… but OK, he could just be that slick, and write all that incredibly inspiring anti establishment stuff to simply fool us all… I can consider that as a possibility

And, Two that he is not.

Looking at things rationally and objectively, there may just be a possibility that Zen joined the cult as a naive young man looking for a family, got caught up in the whole path of Jesus/word of the bible thing and even when he began to hear of instances, he just hung in there and truly believed he could make a difference the way Jesus did… this is an insular cult mentality remember… maybe he tried and tried and then just left broken and disillusioned and struck out on his own to try to make a difference another way, and maybe, just maybe, he never went public with it all because he simply didn’t have anything he was personally involved with to expose…. is this scenario true? I have no idea, but it surely must be considered just as possible as the first option… so is there anything to cause us to lean either way?

Well, I have just been quietly watching from the sidelines these last couple of weeks as this has grown exponentially across the internet with almost every man and his dog now offering their highly informed two cents worth on this issue – and also many obviously paid trolls just itching at this chance to further divide and discredit the independent media. And since the big ‘expose’ and subsequent lynching of zen began, I have not yet seen one single abuse victim come forth to implicate him. (note - comment by Sam to those who try and equate Zen with Simon, as information came out about Simon, people started pouring in their negative experiences left and right). In fact their silence on this issue so far is quite literally deafening and still continues screaming at me like an elephant in the living room… in fact All I have seen relating to zen from COG “insiders” so far is a post from one woman who remembers Zen from COG and said how she loved visiting zens family because he was such a kind caring father and she wished her dad was like that.

So, to be perfectly rational, at this stage, either of the above scenarios could well be true. Zen could be the monster people are claiming he is. Or he could have just been a man caught in a cult thinking he really could make a difference because he believed he had Jesus in his heart… Cults do that sort of **** to peoples heads… ALL the time

So… which one is it… Do you know?

If so please tell me how, because I would very much like to be privy to what ever information you are basing your judgment on.

Personally I think people should consider both options before judging, consider what evidence they are basing that judgment on and consider as I previously said, that if he is indeed guilty as charged, please bring forth the victims he abused and have them now speak and gain their healing. All I know so far on this issue is that the man I have met, whose eyes I have looked into is a kind caring and compassionate individual... there is no way he should be receiving the trial by mob mentality he is being subject to without both possibilities first being rationally considered without judgment. (Sam - "amen!")

Frankly the way this issue has been handled has seriously caused me to question the future of this species, it really has. (Sam comment: "Me too, Max... me too.") People have too eagerly embraced one possibility, based on MSM reports, without ever, even for a moment, considering the other. They have embraced their altruistic ego selves and set themselves as judge, jury and executioner simply because it satisfies their blood lust and inner frustrations to do so.

Even more disturbing to me is that Zen confided in a healer. This indicates to me he was looking for healing and a way to deal with this issue and bring his past into light in a way that it could be opened and viewed without the hysteria the 3 words Children of God conjures up. This information needed to come to the surface, most definitely, but most certainly not the way it was done, and for someone claiming to be a healer to have been so based in egoic judgment, and acted in such a toxic manner without first considering both sides and all possibilities, is just as disturbing as the unbridled hatred and judgment this “healer” has now caused to ripple through the collective consciousness via the vitriolic judgment she has now passed on to others.

I would like to get to the truth of this matter but that will only happen when its approached openly and rationally. Unfortunately, there is little likelihood of that ever happening now as people have already made their minds up. After all, who needs any real facts, and why bother to examine things from all angles – when you can have a good lynching.

P.S. From Zen: The Full Circle Project team administered by Louise Sutton, a former “friend” and associate, has been prompted by her to take an openly aggressive and threatening stance against me. Max has since discontinued his involvement in the project which he himself initiated.

[OnyxKnight]

The issue is confusing because a discussion about corruption in the alt media has erupted in a thread about Zen Gardner, who may (or may not) deserve the attention he was given, and definitely doesn't deserve the inflammatory headlines directed at him.

When it comes to the others in the CCJ, we are talking about people who: Have intel/illuminati backgrounds, sell healing devices for over 10 grand, repeatedly give out duff information, mislead people, + cheerlead covert global government. Re: Global Government, we are dealing with an alt media set up to distract and seduce.

Let's not forget the sale of psychotherapy, or cures, ranging from snake oil water to miracle flesh-eating acids.

In a sane world, all the above, should be illegal and prosecuted.

[Daozen]

The issue is confusing because a discussion about corruption in the alt media has erupted in a thread about Zen Gardner, who may (or may not) deserve the attention he was given, and definitely doesn't deserve the inflammatory headlines directed at him.

When it comes to the others in the CCJ, we are talking about people who: Have intel/illuminati backgrounds, sell healing devices for over 10 grand, repeatedly give out duff information, mislead people, + cheerlead covert global government. Re: Global Government, we are dealing with an alt media set up to distract and seduce.

Let's not forget the sale of psychotherapy, or cures, ranging from snake oil water to miracle flesh-eating acids.

In a sane world, all the above, should be illegal and prosecuted.

But then you are on tricky ground because there are some that say Iodine, B17, Hemp oil and Vitamin C powder should be illegal. Who's to draw the line, and how?

Like it or not, we're moving back to a Digital Wild West. Everyone's responsible for themselves, for their own health, for their own choices. We can't expect gubmint to monitor the market for us. If you believe Black Salve is dangerous, you can start a site about it. If you think the sellers are con artists, expose them. Your voice is equal to everyone elses. If you want to prosecute them privately, you can go ahead, but it's dangerous for us to outsource medical responsibility to the state.

For the record, I heard good things about Black Salve, but never tried it myself. Adverse reactions probably come from overdoses or bad brands. More gentle options should be explored first, but there are some people with huge tumors in their necks. For them, a harsh option like Black Salve is the only choice.

Re: Snake Oil water... there are millions of over-priced brands out there, to be sure. But most drinking water worldwide is low quality. Research into purifying water is a step in the right direction. A home purification unit should cost 50-100USD. Any more, and the sellers are (probably) conmen who should be exposed. So we are free, and we should tread carefully.

Better a Digital Wild West than a technocratic police state.

[OnyxKnight]

Re: the Contactee Oath, I made a rough draft here. Anyone can amend it if they feel like it.

http://piratepad.net/bVovZM01sk

I followed the link and I love everything except maybe the last point. A centralized world government doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing. It depends on who is behind it, what do they want or hope to achieve, the system they put in place to do it, and how the people perceive them. Are their intentions, agenda and actions in line with the intentions, agenda and actions with vast majority of the 8+ billion lives on this planet or not, etc.

There's quite a few worlds out there that function this way, and who you would not deem "regressive/oppressive", because they have the right people behind the wheel.

Perhaps you could tweak the last point to say "- I am not actively working towards a system designed to oppress or regress personal growth and development of the human race of this planet"

... Or something along those lines. One may work towards a different system than the one you described, yet still be endorsing values and principles of the current regressive and oppressive regimes, and when answering your question they do it with a resounding "No" and thus pass it.


I'm ready to sign this btw, if you need certain number to start this thing going.

[Daozen]

Re: the Contactee Oath, I made a rough draft here. Anyone can amend it if they feel like it.

http://piratepad.net/bVovZM01sk

I followed the link and I love everything except maybe the last point. A centralized world government doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing. It depends on who is behind it, what do they want or hope to achieve, the system they put in place to do it, and how the people perceive them. Are their intentions, agenda and actions in line with the intentions, agenda and actions with vast majority of the 8+ billion lives on this planet or not, etc.

There's quite a few worlds out there that function this way, and who you would not deem "regressive/oppressive", because they have the right people behind the wheel.

Perhaps you could tweak the last point to say "- I am not actively working towards a system designed to oppress or regress personal growth and development of the human race of this planet"

... Or something along those lines. One may work towards a different system than the one you described, yet still be endorsing values and principles of the current regressive and oppressive regimes, and when answering your question they do it with a resounding "No" and thus pass it.


I'm ready to sign this btw, if you need certain number to start this thing going.

I understand what you mean, and I'm listening to everyone regarding the finer points. There are definitely tricky issues, and you brought up a lot of them. I've read in science fiction about worlds with benevolent governments. But here on Earth, right now, I do not think there is any human alive who is mature enough to govern 7 billion people.

I know one NWO model for the future is for governing structures to covertly move to Google, Facebook etc. Political governments lose traction, but the alphabet agencies remain in power through these tech corporations. This scenario is superficially decentralized, but in the final analysis, a secret control structure.

My headache: How to call out the glamourboy-lightwarriors who are hyping Putin, hyping the Chinese government, hyping the AIIB, and trying to trick people into a whitewashed eastern-led NWO? What phrasing would work? Any ideas?


Perhaps you could tweak the last point to say "- I am not actively working towards a system designed to oppress or regress personal growth and development of the human race of this planet"

^^^ This is good enough for now, and an improvement on my draft.

EDIT:

One workaround is to get specific, and define oppresion/repression as:

- Debt based banking.
- Governments who put citizens in jail for excercising their democratic rights.

China recently arrested a few dissidents in Hong Kong, in early summer 2016. This means that anyone claiming the Chinese gov is benevolent, is in violation of the terms of the declaration.

[giovonni]

Personally i sense the alternative media is on the way out ...

Though CW currently seems to be on a roll ... :bowl:


Max Igan on Zen Gardner

C.W. Chanter

Published on Aug 30, 2016

note contains colorful profanity

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNHwyMaouOA&feature=em-uploademail

[Daozen]

It'll never go away. The alt media is just people speaking their truth on Skype and Blogs. That'll continue for 1000 years. But this current group of narcissists? Yes, they are finished. Hopefully we can put our minds to something more productive.

[Atlas]

Posted by CW Chanter: "You know ****... **** you... You ****ing ****ing cock-sucking asshole... You're such a piece of **** Max Igan... My hatred for you is justified, you're a piece of garbage... **** you Max Igan... you mother****er..."

Well...
https://cdn.meme.am/instances/65469611.jpg
and stop wasting my time btw...

[giovonni]

Posted by CW Chanter: "You know ****... **** you... You ****ing ****ing cock-sucking asshole... You're such a piece of **** Max Igan... My hatred for you is justified, you're a piece of garbage... **** you Max Igan... you mother****er..."

Well...
https://cdn.meme.am/instances/65469611.jpg
and stop wasting my time btw...


Note during the above video/rant... CW admitted he was a lawyer ...

Makes me wonder now what would Jesus do…If he were a lawyer?

[boutreality]

I thought this vid by CW would be appropriate since he addresses the Bill Ryan "issues" directly, retracting and apologizing for being wrong on the case of Bill's role in the Corey Goode affair.
Corey Goode is s just a different arrangement of info pulled from others- the most I got out of his threads here was the pic of the super-cluster of galaxies the Milky Way is in.
Because there was a discussion of ill-intent re: bringing Corey Goode to the Alt Community in this thread, here's the topic addressed from the source (first 5-6 mins or so):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYC55OJYNgA

He gets into the plausibility of financial impropriety in the "World Citizen Initiative" - if you are familiar with that, I'm not. A voice from this perspective is needed in Alt Media- CW seems to be the only one I've found.

[Chester]

I feel the Jesse Morton story should be considered with regards to Zen Gardener

Enjoy - https://cchs.gwu.edu/jesse-c-morton

and...

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/30/us/al-qaeda-islamic-state-jihad-fbi.html

[Atlas]

I feel the Jesse Morton story should be considered
Jesse C. Morton is a cofounder of Revolution Muslim, a New York City-based group active in the 2000s [2001?]
https://cchs.gwu.edu/sites/cchs.gwu.edu/files/image/Morton.jpg
he helped to insert the narrative of Al-Qaeda and Salafi-jihadist ideology into the American ambit. Morton had direct contact with some of the most prominent extremist preachers in the West, including Abdullah Faisal, Omar Bakri Muhammad, and several others. After his incarceration in 2011, Morton de-radicalized, and today he rejects Salafi jihadi and Islamist ideology.

If you want a real conspiracy, why not try this one:
themindunleashed.org/the-connection-between-911-jfk-and-the-global-collateral-accounts (http://themindunleashed.org/2015/11/the-connection-between-911-jfk-and-the-global-collateral-accounts.html)

http://i1.wp.com/www.ini-world-report.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/jfk.png

[...] it was well known that Kennedy strongly opposed the military-industrial complex, which included The Federal Reserve and the C.I.A.

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