Should Christians Use Magic Mushrooms?

[TruthSeekah]

Should Christians be partaking in Magic Mushrooms? I mean inst it considered pharmika or sorcery? Find out the answers to these questions and more in this episode of The Mythicist Podcast where TruthSeekah speaks to Christ Rushing the Pastor of The Oklevueha Native American Church of Inner Light in Warrior Alabama.
The church has a religious exemption to use marijuana, psylocibin mushrooms and peyote cactus, which have properties that augment traditional Native American spiritual beliefs and experiences, Rushing said. He calls their use in religious ceremonies a sacrament.

http://mythicist.me/christians-use-magic-mushrooms-chris-rushing/

[TargeT]

I think it should be mandatory @ 25 years old; that some sort of psychedelic experience (as McKenna (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terence_McKenna)would say: a Heroic dose) be undertaken... Then again at 30, 35, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60... or more frequently as grounding is needed.

zI9ZY40La80

[TruthSeekah]

I agree. It was a right of passage for me at age 31.

[Shannon]

Most def.

I'll check it out, truthseekah.

[Kano]

Yes, total rite of passage. I first took mushrooms in college and have viewed the world differently ever since. It gave me a much more profound understanding and respect for all that is. I recommend everyone try a natural psychedelic at least once in his/her life.

The trick is to use the drugs once to get there, and maybe spend the next ten years trying to get back there without the drug. - Maynard James Keenan

[TargeT]

Yes, total rite of passage. I first took mushrooms in college and have viewed the world differently ever since. It gave me a much more profound understanding and respect for all that is. I recommend everyone try a natural psychedelic at least once in his/her life.

They are all natural ;)

I don't know of a single popular one(.. there are some RC's (research chemicals) that are psychedelic that isn't).

[Shannon]

Yes, total rite of passage. I first took mushrooms in college and have viewed the world differently ever since. It gave me a much more profound understanding and respect for all that is. I recommend everyone try a natural psychedelic at least once in his/her life.

They are all natural ;)

I don't know of a single (popular.. there are some RC's (research chemicals) that are psychedelic that isn't.

A few friends of mine recently had a really bad time with some RC's made to act like psychedelics....like you said, I'd stay away from them and go with the natural way to trip your face off. ;)

[TargeT]

A few friends of mine recently had a really bad time with some RC's made to act like psychedelics....like you said, I'd stay away from them and go with the natural way to trip your face off. ;)

The natural ones have built in protectors against over dose... RC's do not, I find RC's fascinating, but from a distance.. no need to play with that crazyness.

there are no deaths attributed to any of the plant based psychedelics when taken orally (LSD, (which is mold based) included).

[LivioRazlo]

I took my rite of passage on magic mushrooms when I was about 25, I have never felt so connected after having that experience. Would like to try them again before SHTF, but I feel that my next great experience will come when I pass into my next life with God.

[OMG]

No one should use ANY drug for spiritual experience. The experienced gained from such a thing are not elevated and it's like putting the cart in front of the horse.

[AutumnW]

I dropped some very strong acid in my teens. I consider it a life saving event.

[42]

With the utmost respect towards anyone's right to a religion or dogma-based belief structure, might I suggest that consciousness is one of the few remaining domains that we should be allowed to explore - without the need to check for approval first.

[Spellbound]

Mushrooms can be a lot of fun (though it's been awhile for me personally).

Dave - Toronto

[DeDukshyn]

No one should use ANY drug for spiritual experience. The experienced gained from such a thing are not elevated and it's like putting the cart in front of the horse.

I used to believe that as well, I no longer do. I know from "experience" that there are concepts of possibilities and understanding within everyday experience that are profoundly life-changing for the positive that seem to not be able to be recognized as an ability of yours to conceive of, without first having had a psychedelic experience. For example, not until I tried MDMA (which technically isn't a psychedelic, but will work for my example), did I understand what the state of being without conscious fear was. I mean, I could try to imagine it, or read about it perhaps, but I would not know it. Its like someone describing what the Mona Lisa looks like to you - if they describe it do you know it? Could you recreate the "Mona Lisa" painting just by it's description? Not very close, what you could imagine would be intensely lacking compared to having that experience of "knowing" what the Mona Lisa looks like. This relates because the "Mona Lisa" is the fearlessness state, one where unconditional love lends its taste - this is the Love that Jesus spoke of, not the conditional love we all practice - that's not love. So unless I "Know" the Mona Lisa, I cannot recreate the "Mona Lisa" very well, no matter what tools I am given - they could be the best tools for the job ever, but if I don't know what I am painting, they won't help. However, with even just my fingers I could get a closer representation had I seen the Mona Lisa first, as opposed to just being described what it looked like.

I am miles ahead in my understanding of what real, unconditional, Love is and how to achieve it, and this particular experience that led to that understanding, would, as afar as I can tell, never have occurred without that MDMA experience. (achieve it honestly though, the ultimate conspiracy is the one about where humans constantly lie to themselves to justify their judgments and actions, thoughts, but mostly judgments, and everyone does, so no one calls others out on it - we all ignore it or pretend that "its not us, its them" - and then justify that judgment with some made up reasoning)

With remembering this experience, I was later able to create from scratch (based on my experience), "trainings" for myself to attempt to achieve the unconditional love and fearlessness; which I crafted from my own flavour of meditations, affirmations, constant self analysis, thought suppression, and attempting to maintain one of three states: gratitude, appreciation and praise - over several months, many hours a day. (had a "button pusher" type of job at the time so I had lot's of "mind time"). I had no real proper support, there was little in the way of objective and advanced spiritual training available anywhere at the time - internet was in it's infancy still. But with this training based around the experiences I had, I was able to profoundly change my life for the better, and achieve huge sums of experience based understanding and attain a basis upon which other understandings began to fit like clockwork into.

Street smarts always wins over "book" smarts. :)


I am not saying such experiences are for everyone, if one thinks it is not right for them at any given moment, then for that moment, it is not. That said, you are silly to try to dictate what provides spiritual advancement to individuals and what does not. It would not even be unheard of for people to even gain spiritual advancement from highly undesirable experiences ... I think in historically religious terms these are referred to as "tests", often with very positive outcomes. :)

No one can decide which of any individual's experiences will spiritually influence them or not. It is not something quantifiably predictable. The only "thing" that knows that, is the experience itself ... there are reasons we are trained to stay well within our "comfort zones", but the real reasons are not the ones we have been led to believe ... it is not for our "safety" :)

[TargeT]

No one should use ANY drug for spiritual experience. The experienced gained from such a thing are not elevated and it's like putting the cart in front of the horse.

Totally disagree, hope that's ok with your absolute view of the world :)

[TargeT]

No one should use ANY drug for spiritual experience. The experienced gained from such a thing are not elevated and it's like putting the cart in front of the horse.

I used to believe that as well, I no longer do. I know from "experience" that there are concepts of possibilities and understanding within everyday experience that are profoundly life-changing for the positive that seem to not be able to be recognized as an ability of yours to conceive of, without first having had a psychedelic experience.

IMO, (and I am no experienced psyhconaught):

it clears away the clouded thinking imposed by society by presenting a context so foreign, yet eerily familiar that your mind is finally allowed unbound creativity and the freedom to deal with the **** you haven't dealt with yet.


without first having had a psychedelic experience. For example, not until I tried MDMA (which technically isn't a psychedelic, but will work for my example), did I understand what the state of being without conscious fear was.....

I am miles ahead in my understanding of what real, unconditional, Love is and how to achieve it, and this particular experience that led to that understanding, would, as afar as I can tell, never have occurred without that MDMA experience. (achieve it honestly though, the ultimate conspiracy is the one about where humans constantly lie to themselves to justify their judgments and actions, thoughts, but mostly judgments, and everyone does, so no one calls others out on it - we all ignore it or pretend that "its not us, its them" - and then justify that judgment with some made up reasoning)

MDMA has been used very successfully for treating PTSD, which often times involves extreme amounts of suppressed emotion and memory due to traumatic events (along with a hormonal imbalance that makes dealing with those suppression even harder). I like to think of MDMA as the skeleton key to everyone's emotional baggage... such a great tool & even if it's not needed it's not detrimental either (MDMA is very safe in moderation).


Street smarts always wins over "book" smarts. :)

But the two together......:muscle:............ Never stop learning ;)




. there are reasons we are trained to stay well within our "comfort zones", but the real reasons are not the ones we have been led to believe ... it is not for our "safety" :)

oooo elaborate!!!!

(I have my own theories)

[joeecho]

Interesting subject matter.

I say no drugs and you should send what you have (to me) so as to minimize the temptation. ;)

Let's say a door or doors are opened on a particular drug. Would a rational person dismiss the opening of said doors by thinking something like 'oh, that is just the drug(s) talking' or would they determine it an authentic experience? It might be a tough question for one to answer if they had only used or mostly used drugs to 'get there'.

All goes back to the age old adage, 'what is real and what is an illusion?'


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWAmICTFSok

https://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lw7r95wW4n1r7ahyto1_500.gif

Now, what was I saying?

[petra]

I've heard it said many times now that the "universe provides for you" on mushrooms... now I haven't tried them, but from what you guys are saying that sounds like it could be possible to me. Next time one of you guys does some shrooms, try and manifest some thoughts and see what happens? :)

[Koyaanisqatsi]

No one should use ANY drug for spiritual experience. The experienced gained from such a thing are not elevated and it's like putting the cart in front of the horse.

Ok, tell that to the shamans across the planet who have used plants, fungi included for spiritual reasons since the dawn of man. Go tell them they are fakes, or shortcutting some official way to 'get there'

[Praxis]

No one should use ANY drug for spiritual experience. The experienced gained from such a thing are not elevated and it's like putting the cart in front of the horse.

This is quite possibly the most ignorant thing you can say in this debate. So you think that when the Indians use tobacco in their religious ceremonies they are in the wrong? Or when it is used during the ayahuasca ceremonies?


lets talk carbs. They become sugar after you eat it by the body. Sugar is a drug. Therefore Catholics are taking a drug, also wine, during communion.


Furthermore, what drugs do is nothing. What i mean is your body is actually doing all the work from what I understand. You have receptors in your brain and what drugs do is bind with those receptors and cause your body to produce serotonin dopamine or neuro transmitters which then cause you to feel the effects. MDMA doesnt do anything but cause your body to produce alot of serotonin, dopamine, and Norepinephrine. So that high is produced by your body as a reaction to the stimulus. Which is why you can achieve this effect through running or meditation as well.


But how dare you cast such broad sentence. This is a very ethnocentric and western point of view. This is not even getting into the ideas of the Sacred Mushroom and the Cross and that all christian belief is really just mushroom worship. Or the ancient mystery religions and kykeon.

[DeDukshyn]

. there are reasons we are trained to stay well within our "comfort zones", but the real reasons are not the ones we have been led to believe ... it is not for our "safety" :)

oooo elaborate!!!!

(I have my own theories)

Your theories are likely aligned (somewhat) with mine - it is the contrast that varied experience brings over "what is known", or "expected", and it is this contrast that provides growth and learning; the more and greater you can keep experiencing that contrast, the faster you grow spiritually - no matter what that contrast is - for some, it is even abandoning an incredibly "privileged" life, for a more rudimentary one, as long as there's constant contrast .. now consider what "civilization", as we have been told, might be really doing for humanity ... think long term control over the "human project" ... control that seeks to influence successions of lives by reducing the rate at which a spirit can grow. Ultimately slowing the "awakening" (for lack of non-diluted term) process and allowing the "rulers" to continue the play of "power" that they seek within the physical realm. The true intention for this awful leg of the project (dealing with culturally encoded fear based consciousness) was intended to accelerate and broaden the learning experience for the soul, through individual lives. However, also during this leg, many other fallen have sought to slow this part of the process, to "enjoy" continued power and control over humanity within this leg of the project; some started as our caretakers, tasked with guiding this leg of the project ... we pretty much all fell through the same mechanism - it is related to the forces of separation (aka Satan) on a conscious mind - it's more a mechanical process, but the result is over-emphasis on a fear based ego; humans and angels alike ... Hence here we are at this exact stage! :)

BTW excellent elaborations/extensions of your own commenting on my post ... well said!

[joeecho]

No one should use ANY drug for spiritual experience. The experienced gained from such a thing are not elevated and it's like putting the cart in front of the horse.

This is quite possibly the most ignorant thing you can say in this debate. So you think that when the Indians use tobacco in their religious ceremonies they are in the wrong? Or when it is used during the ayahuasca ceremonies?


lets talk carbs. They become sugar after you eat it by the body. Sugar is a drug. Therefore Catholics are taking a drug, also wine, during communion.


Furthermore, what drugs do is nothing. What i mean is your body is actually doing all the work from what I understand. You have receptors in your brain and what drugs do is bind with those receptors and cause your body to produce serotonin dopamine or neuro transmitters which then cause you to feel the effects. MDMA doesnt do anything but cause your body to produce alot of serotonin, dopamine, and Norepinephrine. So that high is produced by your body as a reaction to the stimulus. Which is why you can achieve this effect through running or meditation as well.


But how dare you cast such broad sentence. This is a very ethnocentric and western point of view. This is not even getting into the ideas of the Sacred Mushroom and the Cross and that all christian belief is really just mushroom worship. Or the ancient mystery religions and kykeon.

*Passes the peace pipe*

This buds for you.

http://www.legendsofamerica.com/photos-nativeamerican/IndianWithPeacePipe.jpg

[DeDukshyn]

I've heard it said many times now that the "universe provides for you" on mushrooms... now I haven't tried them, but from what you guys are saying that sounds like it could be possible to me. Next time one of you guys does some shrooms, try and manifest some thoughts and see what happens? :)

Trying to be "serious" on mushrooms is sometimes pretty hard :) ... (I tried to have sex on mushrooms once -- didn't work lol! We couldn't take the act seriously - it was just weird and funny); the spirit suddenly remembers the mind-states of childhood and then "play" is often the foremost intention. :) That said, I have performed incredible physical acts of skill while on mushrooms - as it has been mentioned, it temporarily clears all the crippling baggage as well (more so for something like MDMA, but to some extent with psychedelics as well), and that baggage most often contains all our self imposed restrictions that we didn't know existed (both physically and mentally) - the contrast of that experience lets us know it exists, so we can access what is needed to address it; this is how it is therapeutic.

[OMG]

Consciousness precedes matter...carts don't pull horses.

Stillness provides the Answer. Not an infinite journey of illusion, psychedelics or whatever...

The paradox of communicating this is also the resolution as long as the addiction(s) is seen for what it is...

[TargeT]

Co
Stillness provides the Answer.

so still altering the natural state of consciousness... Hmm... interesting...I have a multitude of paths to choose when I go to dinner, regardless of the choice I end the night satisfied.... is the path more important than the goal?

Pro/Con it real quick... what's the WORST outcome, really? We've seen some of the best; it was LIFE CHANGING for me, and many others; in the best of ways.

[ghostrider]

A true spirtual experience can only happen when the mind is clear and under your control , my opinion ... it was only when i put all that down did my spiritual self wake up and began to help , and my whole life changed for the better ... until then ohe only sees life through a veil... drugs only stimulate potential that is already there ...

[KiwiElf]

Hmmmm... I'm thinking of the old movie, Altered States... the native American Indians did (and do) just fine on it - before interfering Westerners & their religions & poisons screwed them up ;)

[ZenBaller]

Drugs open up the pineal gland and/or some chakras by force, which means that it is 100% certain, that simply put, are really bad for your physical and spiritual health. However, for a materialistic person, an opening experiencing like that, may indeed open up his mind and heart to start exploring existential issues and wake up in many ways. If the use of drugs continues though, it will create more problems and spiritual regression rather than evolution. Choosing the natural way of meditation, introspection and healthy nutrition, is the only thing that is needed to have these experiences naturally (in a much more awesome way) when your bodies are actually ready.

[lunaflare]

Life choices lead to life experiences, and there are many varied roads.
With the "getting of wisdom", perhaps we make different choices and can more clearly understand that we are accountable for the decisions we make...

Who is to say that Jesus did not partake of the odd 'shroom? This chap certainly seems to thinks so!
http://www.psychedelics.com/psilocybe/holyjesus.html

[Sunny-side-up]

Mushrooms and the like have very worthwhile benefits.

Most of us at certain ages need a kick-start, a mind-opener.

What must be said is: you must be in a safe personal space with sensible people. You must not be messing around, if you are with the wrong people it can lead to harm, it will certainly spoil the benefits anyway!

back when I used to take shrooms many people wanted me to take them with them, so I could look after them and lead them into good experiences and or divert any bad experiences before they started :)
I could tell just where they where in the trip.

:sun:

[Fellow Aspirant]

LOVE Bill Hicks! :dance:

[OMG]

Drugs open up the pineal gland and/or some chakras by force, which means that it is 100% certain, that simply put, are really bad for your physical and spiritual health. However, for a materialistic person, an opening experiencing like that, may indeed open up his mind and heart to start exploring existential issues and wake up in many ways. If the use of drugs continues though, it will create more problems and spiritual regression rather than evolution. Choosing the natural way of meditation, introspection and healthy nutrition, is the only thing that is needed to have these experiences naturally (in a much more awesome way) when your bodies are actually ready.

:thumbsup:

Note: The nature of Spirit is that it can take ANY experience and use it towards beneficial spiritual reality. This is becoming more and more prevalent in society today as indivudlas are fiercely defending and justifying virtually every action they do. This is natural and a necessary step. Yet there are long paths and short paths, beneficial and nonbeneficial paths, the wheat is separated from the chaff in us all, etc...

Attaining profound spiritual experience within-innately without the use of things/externals is optimal. Relying on externals makes you spiritually codependent.

Expanding spiritual reality only needs your awareness and action in the NOW. You ALWAYS are with yourself and NOW is the best time.

Peace
:)

[Fellow Aspirant]

I think that my "exposure" to different hallucinogens in my teens and twenties were directly responsible for my later "awakening".

I wonder how many of the members of this forum are also veterans of drugs that altered their minds and perceptions.

Brian

[TargeT]

I think that my "exposure" to different hallucinogens in my teens and twenties were directly responsible for my later "awakening".

I wonder how many of the members of this forum are also veterans of drugs that altered their minds and perceptions.

Brian

This was my experience also... I needed to have the societal zietgiest slapped out of me.. It happened.

[Kano]

I think that my "exposure" to different hallucinogens in my teens and twenties were directly responsible for my later "awakening".

I wonder how many of the members of this forum are also veterans of drugs that altered their minds and perceptions.

Brian

This is the case with me as well.

[conk]

If you want a mind bending experience, watch this video. Especially the part about pagan rituals involving a certain mushroom, a mushroom the Catholic Church took much symbolism from. The Pope's 'dress', hat, and drinking cup all represent various stages of growth of this mushroom. Very, very interesting.

suBqqpez_-I

[Kano]

Yes, total rite of passage. I first took mushrooms in college and have viewed the world differently ever since. It gave me a much more profound understanding and respect for all that is. I recommend everyone try a natural psychedelic at least once in his/her life.

They are all natural ;)

I don't know of a single popular one(.. there are some RC's (research chemicals) that are psychedelic that isn't).

Well, LSD is a synthetic and therefore not natural. Certain derivatives of LSD are natural such as ergot alkaloids. However, LSD is synthesized from ergot fungus. I personally would recommend to stay away from anything that doesn't occur in nature.

[TargeT]

Well, LSD is a synthetic and therefore not natural. Certain derivatives of LSD are natural such as ergot alkaloids. However, LSD is synthesized from ergot fungus. I personally would recommend to stay away from anything that doesn't occur in nature.

It's an ergot extract, which is chemically purified to just one component (and then isomerized).. I consider that "natural", much like essential oils are "natural" or tinctures are "natural"... It certainly is a lot more processed than say, mushrooms, but when you make mushroom tea, you are again processing it (through heat and "chemicals" (ok, water)) to extract what you want...

IMO, as long as you're starting from something other than petrochemicals (aka RC's etc..), using the base of a historically used substance I think it's ok to call natural. Who want's to drink pure ergot?? ( I mean, it was done. (https://munchies.vice.com/en/articles/how-to-drink-hallucinogenic-beer-like-a-viking-shaman). but a bit too risky)

Anyway, I just see us as us being"better at making ergot beer" not making a new chemical all together.



Certain derivatives of LSD are natural such as ergot alkaloids.

I'd say LSD is a derivative of naturally occurring LSA (https://www.zamnesia.com/content/272-lsd-vs-lsa-the-difference?id_cms=272) (from ergot and morning glory seeds, lots of sources)

[DeDukshyn]

Consciousness precedes matter...carts don't pull horses.
Stillness provides the Answer. Not an infinite journey of illusion, psychedelics or whatever...
The paradox of communicating this is also the resolution as long as the addiction(s) is seen for what it is...

You seem to think there is a straight line first from consciousness, then to matter. "Cart and horse" was your example. However in my view this is a shortsighted and incomplete view. Consciousness cannot grow, it cannot learn without having experiences. It is a circle with three main components -- Experience feeds consciousness so that it can grow / learn (it cannot otherwise), consciousness does feed matter in terms of manifestations (we all do it, but don't notice we are), and matter in turn feeds our experiences - we live in the realm of matter and all our "experiences" happen here in this realm -- every human has to live lives of "matter" - from which our experiences are attained, and those experiences feed our consciousness for the purpose of growth and learning. It is a self feeding circle (and a trap when contrast of experience is removed) - not a straight line with a beginning and an end.

Humans are here in the realms of matter for the purpose of growth and learning, to expand our consciousness, this is the purpose of "why" we are here and why it sometimes sucks - it's all about experiential contrast (to the point where some even claim that if in one life you rape someone, in the next life you get raped, etc).

Your horse / cart equation hide the complete view. I'll say again, no one decides what experience provides spiritual growth (although all does to some extent), except the experience itself - it cannot be reduced further for this equation. Saying what specific acts of experience will or won't provide a soul learning, is disingenuous at best, and shows a bit of ignorance towards what humanity's purpose is in the realms of matter at this time.


Secondly, you hint that some of us are defending addictions to "drugs"; psychedelics are NOT addictive at all - this is your error in judgement -- they have zero addictive properties, and in fact even have anti-addicting properties built in. LSD for example, taken on day 1 you will get a massive effect, take same dose on day 2 half the effect, same dose on day 3 half of that effect, next day no effect. increase dose by 2 x the next day, little effect. by this time though your body would be screaming to stop, because that is now abuse, not use. No one get's "addicted" to these things - addictive drugs are opioides, tobacco, cocaine, -- none of these are psychedelics. I can tell you there is not one person on the planet "addicted" to psychedelics, and people who do or have used them, it is usually once, or a handful times in an entire lifetime. (save for maybe McKenna :))

It is obvious you are trying to speak on a topic where you have no experience and little education on, it really does show in contrast to those who have first hand experience. I'm not saying you are wrong or that a psychedelic experience is right for you - I don't know that, just as you don't know it would be for anyone else; from your point of view you are right, and that is all that is needed for you. :)

[Kano]

Well, LSD is a synthetic and therefore not natural. Certain derivatives of LSD are natural such as ergot alkaloids. However, LSD is synthesized from ergot fungus. I personally would recommend to stay away from anything that doesn't occur in nature.

It's an ergot extract, which is chemically purified to just one component (and then isomerized).. I consider that "natural", much like essential oils are "natural" or tinctures are "natural"... It certainly is a lot more processed than say, mushrooms, but when you make mushroom tea, you are again processing it (through heat and "chemicals" (ok, water)) to extract what you want...

IMO, as long as you're starting from something other than petrochemicals (aka RC's etc..), using the base of a historically used substance I think it's ok to call natural. Who want's to drink pure ergot?? ( I mean, it was done. (https://munchies.vice.com/en/articles/how-to-drink-hallucinogenic-beer-like-a-viking-shaman). but a bit too risky)

Anyway, I just see us as us being"better at making ergot beer" not making a new chemical all together.



Certain derivatives of LSD are natural such as ergot alkaloids.

I'd say LSD is a derivative of naturally occurring LSA (https://www.zamnesia.com/content/272-lsd-vs-lsa-the-difference?id_cms=272) (from ergot and morning glory seeds, lots of sources)

There are many dangerous solvents and reagents used to isolate and isomerize LSD into its street-ready form which all potentially cause a host of pathologies to the body. This simply doesn't occur with, say, mushrooms - a truly natural psychedelic. As such, it is a non-sequitur to compare its production to essential oils, mushroom tea, et al. There are just too many synthetic components used IMO to consider it anywhere close to natural.

All that is needed for a wonderful psychedelic experience provided by Mother Nature with no solvents, reagents or otherwise is a pasture, a cow patty, a little sense of adventure. This, to me, is what it means to be natural.

[TargeT]

All that is needed for a wonderful psychedelic experience provided by Mother Nature with no solvents, reagents or otherwise is a pasture, a cow patty, a little sense of adventure. This, to me, is what it means to be natural.

That's all I've ever done, but those who have worked with LSD.. I give some consideration... I bet if i tried to isolate Psilocybin I'd have to use some nasty chemicals...

I have isolated mescaline before (takes baths in chemicals to pull the alkaloid out of the cacti-goo). I've also just chopped em up, boiled them down and experienced that way... between the two the isolation was worth it.

I don't begrudge the human mind and it's propensity for efficiency.

[DeDukshyn]

Well, LSD is a synthetic and therefore not natural. Certain derivatives of LSD are natural such as ergot alkaloids. However, LSD is synthesized from ergot fungus. I personally would recommend to stay away from anything that doesn't occur in nature.

It's an ergot extract, which is chemically purified to just one component (and then isomerized).. I consider that "natural", much like essential oils are "natural" or tinctures are "natural"... It certainly is a lot more processed than say, mushrooms, but when you make mushroom tea, you are again processing it (through heat and "chemicals" (ok, water)) to extract what you want...

IMO, as long as you're starting from something other than petrochemicals (aka RC's etc..), using the base of a historically used substance I think it's ok to call natural. Who want's to drink pure ergot?? ( I mean, it was done. (https://munchies.vice.com/en/articles/how-to-drink-hallucinogenic-beer-like-a-viking-shaman). but a bit too risky)

Anyway, I just see us as us being"better at making ergot beer" not making a new chemical all together.



Certain derivatives of LSD are natural such as ergot alkaloids.

I'd say LSD is a derivative of naturally occurring LSA (https://www.zamnesia.com/content/272-lsd-vs-lsa-the-difference?id_cms=272) (from ergot and morning glory seeds, lots of sources)

There are many dangerous solvents and reagents used to isolate and isomerize LSD into its street-ready form which all potentially cause a host of pathologies to the body. This simply doesn't occur with, say, mushrooms - a truly natural psychedelic. ...

You are just referring to levels of "quality" though - poorly made LSD can have some leftover nasty solvents - but consider the dose size; chance of harm is relatively low. Just like quality of poorly picked shrooms - get one wrong shroom in the bunch and your kidneys could be screaming for mercy ...

That said, in general, mushrooms are way easier n the body in general than LSD is. Of course, it dose dependent.

[Kano]

All that is needed for a wonderful psychedelic experience provided by Mother Nature with no solvents, reagents or otherwise is a pasture, a cow patty, a little sense of adventure. This, to me, is what it means to be natural.

That's all I've ever done, but those who have worked with LSD.. I give some consideration... I bet if i tried to isolate Psilocybin I'd have to use some nasty chemicals...

I have isolated mescaline before (takes baths in chemicals to pull the alkaloid out of the cacti-goo). I've also just chopped em up, boiled them down and experienced that way... between the two the isolation was worth it.

I don't begrudge the human mind and it's propensity for efficiency.

Therein lies the beauty of mushrooms for me. There is nothing extra needed for a good time. No isolation, no chemicals. Just pick, eat, and enjoy.

I certainly don't begrudge the innate desire for efficiency either but when we start playing with our fancy lab chemicals to produce a certain effect, that is when it ceases to be natural.

[Kano]

Well, LSD is a synthetic and therefore not natural. Certain derivatives of LSD are natural such as ergot alkaloids. However, LSD is synthesized from ergot fungus. I personally would recommend to stay away from anything that doesn't occur in nature.

It's an ergot extract, which is chemically purified to just one component (and then isomerized).. I consider that "natural", much like essential oils are "natural" or tinctures are "natural"... It certainly is a lot more processed than say, mushrooms, but when you make mushroom tea, you are again processing it (through heat and "chemicals" (ok, water)) to extract what you want...

IMO, as long as you're starting from something other than petrochemicals (aka RC's etc..), using the base of a historically used substance I think it's ok to call natural. Who want's to drink pure ergot?? ( I mean, it was done. (https://munchies.vice.com/en/articles/how-to-drink-hallucinogenic-beer-like-a-viking-shaman). but a bit too risky)

Anyway, I just see us as us being"better at making ergot beer" not making a new chemical all together.



Certain derivatives of LSD are natural such as ergot alkaloids.

I'd say LSD is a derivative of naturally occurring LSA (https://www.zamnesia.com/content/272-lsd-vs-lsa-the-difference?id_cms=272) (from ergot and morning glory seeds, lots of sources)

There are many dangerous solvents and reagents used to isolate and isomerize LSD into its street-ready form which all potentially cause a host of pathologies to the body. This simply doesn't occur with, say, mushrooms - a truly natural psychedelic. ...

You are just referring to levels of "quality" though - poorly made LSD can have some leftover nasty solvents - but consider the dose size; chance of harm is relatively low. Just like quality of poorly picked shrooms - get one wrong shroom in the bunch and your kidneys could be screaming for mercy ...

That said, in general, mushrooms are way easier n the body in general than LSD is. Of course, it dose dependent.

Apologies if that is what you deduced from my comments. It has nothing to do with the quality of the end product. My points were to address the potentially hazardous components to the human body when creating LSD. There is no way around using these to create the desired effect. And this never enters the equation when dealing with mushrooms.

[TargeT]

when we start playing with our fancy lab chemicals to produce a certain effect, that is when it ceases to be natural.

also for clarity.. nothing is created, you are ISOLATING the desired effect (even with LSA/LSD.. they are so similar it's nuts) and getting rid of other things so the one thing is prominent.

it's generally only hazardous for the lab worker (depending on the methods used for isolation/ substances worked with) as DeDukshyn alluded to.




There is no way around using these to create the desired effect. And this never enters the equation when dealing with mushrooms.

You didn't dry yours? (that's a form of isolation, dehydration... getting rid of undesired properties)

Yeah, I'm playing a lot of Symantec here, but I think the societal meme of "synthetic" vs "natural" gives WAYYY too much credit to "synthetic" we don't really "make" much.. we do enhance and condense a lot.. but "create"? nope...

[DeDukshyn]

... And this never enters the equation when dealing with mushrooms.

Quality certainly does enter into the equation regarding the manufacture of LSD. Many times a variety of chemicals will get some part of the process done, what is chosen may impact the purity of the end result. I get your point was that mushrooms are "good to go" as is.

When I referred to "screaming kidneys", I was speaking from personal experience. It was about 15 years before I ever did mushrooms again after that. :)

I think we're getting a bit off topic, then again it seems us three are the only ones left in the discussion ... :)

[Kano]

when we start playing with our fancy lab chemicals to produce a certain effect, that is when it ceases to be natural.

also for clarity.. nothing is created, you are ISOLATING the desired effect (even with LSA/LSD.. they are so similar it's nuts) and getting rid of other things so the one thing is prominent.

it's generally only hazardous for the lab worker (depending on the methods used for isolation/ substances worked with) as DeDukshyn alluded to.




There is no way around using these to create the desired effect. And this never enters the equation when dealing with mushrooms.

You didn't dry yours? (that's a form of isolation, dehydration... getting rid of undesired properties)

Yeah, I'm playing a lot of Symantec here, but I think the societal meme of "synthetic" vs "natural" gives WAYYY too much credit to "synthetic" we don't really "make" much.. we do enhance and condense a lot.. but "create"? nope...

Yes, I think we are getting down to semantics in some aspects. Nonetheless, great discussion. I do understand that there are pros and cons to both synthetic and natural drugs. Thanks for your very informed perspective.:beer:

¤=[Post Update]=¤



... And this never enters the equation when dealing with mushrooms.

Quality certainly does enter into the equation regarding the manufacture of LSD. Many times a variety of chemicals will get some part of the process done, what is chosen may impact the purity of the end result. I get your point was that mushrooms are "good to go" as is.

When I referred to "screaming kidneys", I was speaking from personal experience. It was about 15 years before I ever did mushrooms again after that. :)

I think we're getting a bit off topic, then again it seems us three are the only ones left in the discussion ... :)

Those must have been some seriously screaming kidneys to wait 15 years to go back to that well:(

Thanks for your very informed perspectives as well. I have enjoyed our back and forths.:bowing:

[TruthSeekah]

Ive personally had 3 experiences 2 of which were life changing and so much revelation came from them.

[Conde]

Manna From Heaven
by Steve Kubby
http://deoxy.org/manna.htm

There are a great many people who would never consider the use of visionary plants to be a spiritual experience. These people believe that spiritual experiences must come directly from God and that the use of visionary plants goes against the teachings of the Bible. Contrary to this notion, the Bible never explicitly prohibits the use of visionary plants or potions. What you will find however, is many curious references to a spiritual food sent down from heaven by God, called manna.
The Bible never tells us exactly what manna was and where it came from, but there are many Old Testament passages which describe its physical qualities and conditions associated with its appearance. The Bible's first reference to manna is in the Book of Exodus as the children of Israel are fleeing from Egypt and following Moses into the wilderness. After six weeks of wandering, they began complaining to Moses that they are tired and hungry. What happens next is truly extraordinary:

Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will vain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law or no (16:4).
And when the dew that lay was gone up, behold, upon the face of the wilderness there lay a small round thing, as small as the hoar frost on the ground (16:14). And when the children of Israel saw if, they said one to another It is manna: for they wist not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the Lord hath given you to eat.

When I read this passage, I was struck by the fact that manna easily fits the description of psilocybe mushrooms. For one thing magic mushrooms are small and round, and since they sprout so rapidly they would seem to appear overnight, as if out of the sky. Also, anyone harvesting them would immediately notice that they turn blue where torn and had no roots, giving more reason to believe that the mushrooms were of celestial origin. Note that manna does not just fall from heaven, but instead it is described as coming with the frost and dew, during the wet seasons. These are the precise weather conditions for mushrooms to thrive. And finally, manna is described as a bread.
Although translations have obscured the intent of this passage, it seems to be a description of how to find and identify manna and distinguish it from other non-psychoactive (or possibly lethal) mushrooms. Look for the small round things which are like bread, come with the rain, and seem to have heavenly (bluish) coloring. Psilocybe mushrooms also sprout in tiny pin heads which branch out in all directions and bear a resemblance to hoar frost.

It is also interesting to note that Moses tells the children of Israel that manna comes directly from Heaven to test them on whether or not they will walk in God's law. Here is evidence that manna was endowed with unusual spiritual powers, like those of magic mushrooms. However, manna does not automatically confer spiritual power. Instead, it serves as a test. Magic mushrooms would provide visionary experiences that would certainly test all who ingested them. Moses also said that the manna is literally the "bread of the lord" which is remarkably similar to the literal Aztec name for psilocybe mushrooms, "flesh of the gods."

But how and why did the manna suddenly appear? Again referring to the Bible, it is clear that the children of Israel had journeyed to a land where there was dew in the morning. As a large, nomadic tribe, the Israelites brought a lot of cattle and sheep together in the area. That meant a great deal of manure. The change of climate from the arid lands of Egypt to the dewy climate of the wilderness created ideal conditions for the propagation and spread of psilocybe mushrooms in livestock dung.

In Exodus 12:19-20, we find more references to manna.

And Moses said, Let no man leave of it till the morning (16:19). Notwithstanding they harkened not unto Moses, but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms and stank: and Moses was wroth with them (16:20). And they gathered it every morning, every man according to his eating. and when the sun waxed hot it melted...(16:21).
Anyone familiar with wild mushrooms knows that they go bad very quickly and shrivel up under the heat of the sun, exactly like manna.

It seems curious that Moses recognized the manna instantly when the children of Israel showed it to him. He knew that the manna would spoil if it was not picked and eaten in the morning. But how did Moses know about manna? Perhaps Moses knew about manna because he had already encountered the mushroom at the time he saw the burning bush. Referring to an earlier period of his life, we find that Moses:

...kept a flock of Jethro, his father in-law the priest of Midiam: and he led the flock to the back side of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb (3:1). And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed (3:2).
Had Moses eaten the sacred mushroom while camped at the mountain? Here again we can only speculate that manure from his flock and a change in climate had created the proper environment for the mushrooms to fruit. Perhaps Moses ingested the mushrooms purely by accident, or perhaps his father in law, who we know was also a priest, had introduced Moses to the mushroom. Archaeological evidence of psychedelic mushroom use in Biblical times is well documented by Terence McKenna, so it is reasonable to conclude that Moses could have had some experience with visionary mushrooms.1

Later, in Numbers 11:6-9, manna is again described in terms that are remarkably similar to magic mushrooms:

But now our soul is dried away: there is nothing at all, beside this manna, before our eyes. And the manna was as coriander seed, and the colour thereof as the colour of bdelliaum. And the people went about and gathered it, and ground it in mills, or beat it in a mortar and baked it in pans: and made cakes of it: and the taste of it was as the taste of fresh oil. And when the dew fell upon the camp in the night, the manna fell upon it.
Here we find manna described as before our eyes, having a neutral taste like fresh oil, and once again, the Bible mentions that manna appearing in the morning when the dew fell. The Old Testament even tells us what manna looks like, the manna was as coriander seed, and the colour thereof. When psilocybe mushrooms are dried, their range of colors is virtually identical to dried coriander seed. In both cases, with mushrooms and coriander seeds, we see great similarities in the texture, color, tones, contrasts and general visual appearance. The Children of Israel must have given great thought about how to transmit the appearance of manna so as to aid future generations who might encounter it. However, mushrooms were a mystery to the Hebrews and they were unable to predict where manna could be found. Little did they realize that the manure from their cattle was providing a means for the mushroom to find its way into their mountain campsites.

Notice that the manna was ground in mills or beat it in a mortar. That is odd because earlier we are told that manna was quite delicate and, then the sun wax hot, it melted. However, if manna was the psilocybe mushroom, then it was probably dried and then ground in order to be used for baking. In fact, dried magic mushrooms are quite hard. Grinding or crushing the dried mushroom and then baking with the powder would insure that the delicate psychoactive molecules retained their highest potency.

In the next passage, the Bible describes manna as having light tan color and texture like a wafer, certainly an accurate description of the color and texture of a dried psilocybe mushroom. We also learn that the taste of manna is no longer that of fresh oil but rather that of honey. According to McKenna's research, honey has long been used in Mexico as a preserve medium for psilocybin containing mushrooms. Perhaps the children of Israel had begun to mix honey with the manna to preserve its potency. We find that Moses announced that manna must be kept for future generations:

And the house of Israel called the name there of manna: and it was like coriander seed, white; and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey (l6:31). And Moses said, This is the thing which the LORD commandeth. Fill an omer of it to be kept for your generations: that they may see the bread where with I have fed you in the wilderness, when I brought you forth from the land of Egypt (16:32).
Again we are told to fill an omer with manna. But how much is a omer? Isaac Asimov, in his book on the Bible, concludes that an omer is about four liters, while the King James version of the Bible estimates an omer to be six pints. Psilocybe mushrooms are 92% water and only 8% remains when they are dried. Also, fresh mushroom take up a lot of space, due to their shape. So four liters of fresh magic mushrooms would yield less than a tenth of a liter, or about 1/4 cup of dried, powdered manna This corresponds closely with the amount of magic mushrooms required for a moderately strong dose when used for baking. This is important because it clearly shows that not only does manna have similar qualities to magic mushrooms, it also shows that it was also used in the same quantity as mushrooms. So manna matches psilocybe mushroom on both a qualitative and quantitative analysis providing a compelling argument that psilocybe mushrooms are in actuality "manna from Heaven."

Of course there are those who will remain eternally skeptical, but keep in mind that the description of manna given in the old testament bears an exact resemblance to mushrooms. Even if psilocybe mushrooms are not manna the similarities have indicated mushrooms as a possible candidate, and they certainly fit the bill for a "spiritual food". Unfortunately, when the Children of Israel finally reach the arid land of Canaan, the mysterious manna no longer appeared.

And the manna ceased on the morrow after they had eaten of the old corn of the land: neither had the children of Israel manna any more.
The children of Israel must have been deeply disappointed when they ran out of their sacred manna. We can see that they went to great lengths to preserve their knowledge about identifying and using manna The Old Testament contains detailed information about the color, texture, appearance, and relationship to dew, and the Old Testament even explains how manna is to be ground and then used in baking cakes. If the Israelites thought that manna was a magical event caused by God would they have bothered to note all the details about the identification of manna? What about the manna that Moses said must be put away for future generations? Turning to Hebrews 9:3-4 we find:

And after the second vail, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all: Which had the golden censer and the Ark of the Covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna.
Here we learn that manna was to be kept in the Holiest of all, the Ark of the Covenant. Clearly, the manna was something of great spiritual power since the Hebrews treated it with such reverence and even went to such great lengths to see that manna be given to future generations. We must also consider the covenant that the Jewish people held with God which was celebrated through the act of circumcision. Why was this covenant with God associated with the removal of foreskin from infant males. Why not a tattoo, scar, article of clothing or jewelry? Perhaps the answer is that the circumcised penis bears a remarkable resemblance to psilocybe mushroom just before the partial veil has broken away from the mushroom caps and they are at their greatest potency. If the Ark of the Covenant was specifically built to store manna it is logical was also tied to manna through the ritual act of circumcision, which gave each Jewish male his own mushroom-like penis.

The discovery that manna was (and is) psilocybe mushrooms is not simply an issue of theological or academic debate. So great was the power conferred by manna, that this small band of wandering slaves were able to defeat all enemies who crossed their path even when confronted by armies that were bigger and better equipped. Jews, Christians and Moslems can all trace their roots to the children of Israel who ate manna for forty years and saw themselves as God's chosen people. Again, we are reminded of McKenna's thesis that those who ate psilocybe mushrooms had a survival advantage due to better visual acuity, heightened senses, better hunting skills, and for the children of Israel, better warrior skills. Manna gave the Hebrews their own covenant with God one that is even recognized today by Christians who believe that the Jews have already earned a special place as the Chosen People. Bible scholar Grant Jeffrey explains:

"The covenant which God made with Abraham and the kingdom promises to David, Solomon and all the prophets will be finally realized in the Millennial Kingdom... the Lord promised a new covenant with Ismel in which He would give them a new heart, forgiveness of sin, and the infilling of the Spirit to the renewed nation. This promised kingdom will provide the fulfillment of all the hopes and dreams of the Chosen People forever."3


What is the new covenant? It is the rediscovery of manna. Across the gulf of thousands of years the Bible transmits and accurate and detailed description of manna waiting for the time when the message can be decoded and manna can again fulfill its role as a celestial messenger. Manna was the basis of the Jewish covenant with God. Indeed, it is this covenant and the use of manna which has set the Jews apart as the Chosen People. The Bible is not the message, it only points the way. Manna is the holy sacrament that provides the means for God to "prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no."

If manna is indeed the psilocybin mushroom, then this means that the Koran, Bible, and Torah were all inspired by psychedelically induced visions. The very foundations upon which these religions rest were derived from the mushroom experience. Moses and the children of Israel used the mushrooms as true sacraments to communicate with a Higher Power, also known as Allah, God and Yahweh. The discovery that manna is real and is available to us today means that like children of Israel we too can use manna to experience the joy, wisdom and spiritual renewal of the Chosen People.
Terence McKenna, Food of the Gods, (New York, Harper Collins) p. 84.
Terence McKenna, Food of the Gods, (New York, Harper Collins), p. 127.

[Citizen No2]

Not quite on-topic here, but interesting enough to post on this thread as it does point to a deeper question regarding 'drugs'.

In Vietnam, the water buffalo have always shunned the local opium plants. They don't like them. But when the American bombs started to fall all around them during the war , the buffalo left their normal grazing grounds, broke into the opium fields, and began to chew. They would then look a little dizzy and dulled. When they were traumatised, it seems, they wanted - like us - to escape from their thoughts.

The above paragraph is taken from a book I am currently reading: Chasing the Scream by Johann Hari. The First and Last Days of the War On Drugs.

Interesting.

In my youth I took both LSD and Mushrooms. I would never consider taking LSD again. The last time I took it (20yrs or more ago) I ended-up having a horrific experience that definitely altered me in some small, perceptible way. Mushrooms on the other hand, were always 'clean' and gave me the most wonderful vision and understanding of Nature and the life-force that binds us all.


Regards.

[Beany]

This is all very interesting!

[1Watchman]

I think wether or not a Christian should eat mushrooms all hangs on the intent of the person and the heart. If a person chooses to eat mushrooms and has the intent within to have an encounter with God this can be a beneficial and life changing experience. Otherwise its nothing more than a pleasure pursuit which actually seperates you from God.

[Spellbound]

I think everyone should try mushrooms at least once. Unfortunately, organized religion lays a guilt trip on it.

Dave - Toronto

[TargeT]

I think everyone should try mushrooms at least once. Unfortunately, organized religion lays a guilt trip on it.

Dave - Toronto

even more reason to do it, IMO... haha