love and individuality

[6pounder]

an individual is like a flower - if you dont want it to wither, dont pluck it. let it be a beautifull flower as it is.

in simple words (and a long explanation) -
people tend to think that once they have found their pair, twin flame, soulmate, etc...
they need to change them to fit into their way of living which in most cases is very similar as puting a cage on them. an invisible one.

during my experiance i was one of those who once they get their girlfriend they start to do everything to change their mate's lifes in order to feel that they are comitted to the relationship. and it is usually by stricting the other from what he is in his single life.

meeting friends of the opposite gender, wearing provocative clothes, going to crowded places, etc...

one must understand that changing others behaivior is building a "cage" instead of a relationship. we all are free individuals and we all want to experiance our lives in any way we want to. a relationship does not mean giving up on your dreams and desires for another. relationship means tagging along to some one you love and respect and getting him into your "bubble" but keeping in mind he is there because he wants to, not because he needs to.

people used to monogamy. and in my honest openion its a cage. a brainwash by sociaty that goes for long time now. the more we are awake, the more we realize that LOVE is not a thing we have for one individual. LOVE is here in us to give to everyone in any way we think of.

taking once freedom and building a "cage" around them, stricting them from being who they are, makes the relationship not based on "love" but based on self ego and self lack of confidance. which leads to eventually one of the sides misserable living in a cage and being denied of his/her freedom.

thats my take on love and individuality. what is yours my dear avalonian friends?

[ElfeMya]

Hi 6pounder, I tend to agree with you on most of those things.
There is one part that made me think, about monogamy. From my own experience, sometimes I just wanted to be with one person and though I enjoyed having interactions with others, it was very much of my expression to be only with one and not many. I had no need, no interest, no fun entertaining the idea of being with many at once. I am not sure this was society programming as there have been times I did not want monogamous relationships at all... Would it be possible that at certain times, 2 people really feel they want to experience through monogamy and not out of being insecure and not trusting the love of their mates ?

I too am one that did the caging thing and that got it done to me... who has not ?


Thanks for this thread ! Hugs to you !

[neutronstar]

If you love somebody you should love them just the way they are, warts and all, or in my case really funky hair, two different colored eyes, bad teeth, and a tongue that hangs out of the side of my mouth. :bigsmile: If you want to be in a relationship though, I think you should respect the other person's feelings if they want a monogamous relationship. If you don't want a monogamous relationship then there is certainly nothing wrong with Friends with Benefits if both sides agree. :clapping:

[ElfeMya]

If you love somebody you should love them just the way they are, warts and all, or in my case really funky hair, two different colored eyes, bad teeth, and a tongue that hangs out of the side of my mouth. :bigsmile: If you want to be in a relationship though, I think you should respect the other person's feelings if they want a monogamous relationship. If you don't want a monogamous relationship then there is certainly nothing wrong with Friends with Benefits if both sides agree. :clapping:

Think you rock, Neutron, here is a pot of coffee to go with the rock star hair ;-)
It is funny you bring up the respect when both parts are seeing things thourhg a different angle. I have been on both side of the fence with this and I don't find any answers... When I was on the monogamy side, the " friends with benefits " never was good to me as it was very painful. When on the not monogmous side, it was pretty much the same because there was always a frustration of not living the love fully.

Have you been able to reconcile this ? And if yes, how did you do it ? Pleeeease share your magic ! ;-)

Hugs to you

[neutronstar]

No, I have never had a friends with benefits. If I really liked someone I think that would be hard, but if two people can do it I see nothing wrong with it. The only way it would work for me is if I was attracted to a women but didn't want a relationship. I have found that usually one side wants a relationship though.

[ElfeMya]

No, I have never had a friends with benefits. If I really liked someone I think that would be hard, but if two people can do it I see nothing wrong with it. The only way it would work for me is if I was attracted to a women but didn't want a relationship. I have found that usually one side wants a relationship though.

I am in awe of people able to do it, I personally can't. Each time I try to visualize it, it looks like a pretty glossy magazine thing but nothing resonates that much, it does not seem to fit with ... my inner nature. Do you think it is all because of our programming ?

[Sueanne47]

We've been married for over 30 years, and the glue that keeps me & Terry together are 2 things ~ our unique sense of humour and our solid trust. Soooo many people have come & gone in our lives and no one sticks around for long. No matter how joyful/intellingent/generous/helpful they are, every person has always let us down, and we have been hurt a lot when we've reached out and trusted people. We are both laid back when we have time off work, and Terry does his thing in the shed (model trains!) I look after him...& he looks after me. When I get home from a hot factory on a 12hr shift, I have my cornflake bowl, spoon, cereal and teacup waiting..he always does this like his little routine. :star:

To us trust and love are paramount :hug:

[ElfeMya]

We've been married for over 30 years, and the glue that keeps me & Terry together are 2 things ~ our unique sense of humour and our solid trust. Soooo many people have come & gone in our lives and no one sticks around for long. No matter how joyful/intellingent/generous/helpful they are, every person has always let us down, and we have been hurt a lot when we've reached out and trusted people. We are both laid back when we have time off work, and Terry does his thing in the shed (model trains!) I look after him...& he looks after me. When I get home from a hot factory on a 12hr shift, I have my cornflake bowl, spoon, cereal and teacup waiting..he always does this like his little routine. :star:

To us trust and love are paramount :hug:

Woa Suanne this is awesome !!!
<3
If I come back to 6pounder original post, there is no feeling of being in a cage for you or having to change to accomodate the desires of your partner or is there ?

hugs to you

[neutronstar]

No, I have never had a friends with benefits. If I really liked someone I think that would be hard, but if two people can do it I see nothing wrong with it. The only way it would work for me is if I was attracted to a women but didn't want a relationship. I have found that usually one side wants a relationship though.

I am in awe of people able to do it, I personally can't. Each time I try to visualize it, it looks like a pretty glossy magazine thing but nothing resonates that much, it does not seem to fit with ... my inner nature. Do you think it is all because of our programming ?

I think that I good come up with a very long answer to that if I really thought about it. What I think is most common is insecurities, but I think there are a lot of reasons programming being one, ya.

[neutronstar]

We've been married for over 30 years :hug:

Sounds like to me you are one of lucky ones who gets to enjoy this lifetime with your soulmate.

[Blacklight43]

My partner and I have been married for nearly 57 years and for the most part very happy. Sometimes I didn't like him but I always loved him. We're old now and settled in our ways and we are now good friends. We do look out for each other. I may have felt caged in at times but all I have to do is express my feelings and things work out. In the early years it was a control thing but I let it be known that I won't be controlled or told what to do and as long as that is respected life hums along beautifully! It goes both ways. Life is a game of give and take...compromise. I think we have gotten pretty good at it! We may have been programmed
from an early age by observing our parents and grandparents but for me has been a good program. Monogamy has worked very well in this partnership. We are totally different individuals with different interest and tastes...but we do share a love of Mexican food! Never boring around here!

[ElfeMya]

My partner and I have been married for nearly 57 years and for the most part very happy. Sometimes I didn't like him but I always loved him. We're old now and settled in our ways and we are now good friends. We do look out for each other. I may have felt caged in at times but all I have to do is express my feelings and things work out. In the early years it was a control thing but I let it be known that I won't be controlled or told what to do and as long as that is respected life hums along beautifully! It goes both ways. Life is a game of give and take...compromise. I think we have gotten pretty good at it! We may have been programmed
from an early age by observing our parents and grandparents but for me has been a good program. Monogamy has worked very well in this partnership. We are totally different individuals with different interest and tastes...but we do share a love of Mexican food! Never boring around here!

Wow 57 years, that is beautiful Blacklight... I am on my knees in awe... Ok... I have roughly 60 years at least left on the planet so I find my mate this year and marry him... I might have a chance to experience something as beautiful !
I find your journey with your loved one absolutely remarkable...

Wondering where is 6pounder ?

[AutumnW]

No, I have never had a friends with benefits. If I really liked someone I think that would be hard, but if two people can do it I see nothing wrong with it. The only way it would work for me is if I was attracted to a women but didn't want a relationship. I have found that usually one side wants a relationship though.

I am in awe of people able to do it, I personally can't. Each time I try to visualize it, it looks like a pretty glossy magazine thing but nothing resonates that much, it does not seem to fit with ... my inner nature. Do you think it is all because of our programming ?

On one extreme you have people suffocating their partners in a socially sanctioned monogamous embrace. The other extreme is populated by those who end up commodifying others in the mistaken notion that the empty exercise of "loving" many, sexually, represents freedom for themselves AND others.

[Jayren]

Love is given to everybody on this planet, we need a lot more and it is slowly rising, we might all look different but on the inside we are made of the same things, physically and in spirit, we travel many different journeys with our spirit but we are still that same spirit, and with love anything is possible, in my opinion everything extends from love!

[ElfeMya]

No, I have never had a friends with benefits. If I really liked someone I think that would be hard, but if two people can do it I see nothing wrong with it. The only way it would work for me is if I was attracted to a women but didn't want a relationship. I have found that usually one side wants a relationship though.

I am in awe of people able to do it, I personally can't. Each time I try to visualize it, it looks like a pretty glossy magazine thing but nothing resonates that much, it does not seem to fit with ... my inner nature. Do you think it is all because of our programming ?

On one extreme you have people suffocating their partners in a socially sanctioned monogamous embrace. The other extreme is populated by those who end up commodifying others in the mistaken notion that the empty exercise of "loving" many, sexually, represents freedom for themselves AND others.

Hay Autumn, correct me if I am wrong... trying to really understand this.
One one hand those who are trying to be monogamous and by forcing themselves onto that path end up with a lot of unfulfilled desires and unhappiness and expecations put on their mate that creates the suffocating ( therefore that " don't cut the flower " that 6pounder introduced when he started that thread ) and causes ruin and disarray in the relationship.

On the other hand those who took the opposite path : never settling down and forcing themselves too somehow to have multiple lover and be polyamor even if if also leaves them with a big bunch of unfulfilled needs and desires and expectations that are not taken care of...
If I got this right, this is like people going on a circle, whether they start the journey on thr right part or the left part they end up going around being unhappy. Sucks.

How do we reconcile this ?

[jimrich]

thats my take on love and individuality. what is yours my dear avalonian friends?
For me, relationships are very simple and direct though perhaps not easy.
You have to start out as very best and most respectful friends after which trust and love can develop as you prove to each other over and over that you are willing and capable of maintaining that friendship and respect ALL THE TIME and not just when your "good behavior" gets you something from the other partner.
A quick and easy route to a good relationship can be found if you google: Relationship tips or skills and get busy LEARNING HOW to make a relationship work well.
100% honesty and respect will take you all the way through because, once TRUST is established, love, romance, affection, empathy, fun, play, happiness, relaxation, togetherness, LOYALTY, creative sex, spiritual bonding and a lot of other positives can follow.
The key to all of this is to make sure you do these things ALL THE TIME and not just when you "feel" like doing it. The moment you get lazy and start sliding back down into contempt, teasing, insincerity, carelessness,neglect, boredom, disrespect and any other negatives, its all over because it will be very hard to come back up to the level of love and respect that you both felt in the beginning when you were HOT for each other. Things can and might "slip" from time to time but honest love and respect can get you through that and make things just as good as ever again.
Most couples lose it by getting lazy and careless with each other so, pretty soon the friendship begins to die along with the romance and passion, and then they start looking around for someone or something ELSE to like and love.
What a shame when keeping love alive and well is so EASY and so much FUN once you know how!
We kept our love alive and well by following a few simple techniques and skills that we found in relationship books and on line so anyone can acquire and use them IF THEY ARE WILLING TO!
:heart:

[6pounder]

We may have been programmed
from an early age by observing our parents and grandparents but for me has been a good program.

my take on this is that most of society is programmed from observing the norm and taking it for granted without asking questions.

my still short experiance tho fruitful with my partner (4 years togather, with 2 big brake ups in betwin them for long periods) led me to the understanding i cannot "own" her as a girfriend nor she can "own" me.
most of this thinking came to me after ive learned social dinamics aka pick-up for 3 years. i came to a conclution that as on my previous post, we walk our road of life experiance alone. and our partners are welcome to tag along as we are welcome to tag along to their path of life. and if some one does not agree with our way of life we should not force our way upon them. we should let them choose when to leave.

relationships tend to make the both sides sometimes feel like there is no option of leaving the circle. and that is through emotional manipulation.
we have to be crystal clear of the understanding of who we are and later honest with our partners about who we are (befor it becomes a relationship) so that we wont make them regret the astablishment of the relationship on false impressions.
on the other hand we should not change ourselves for another in order to fit into a relationship status.

[6pounder]

No, I have never had a friends with benefits. If I really liked someone I think that would be hard, but if two people can do it I see nothing wrong with it. The only way it would work for me is if I was attracted to a women but didn't want a relationship. I have found that usually one side wants a relationship though.

I am in awe of people able to do it, I personally can't. Each time I try to visualize it, it looks like a pretty glossy magazine thing but nothing resonates that much, it does not seem to fit with ... my inner nature. Do you think it is all because of our programming ?

it is (imho) programming. our nature as spirits is to be free. not strict by societies programming. we tend to think about love and relationship as a formated system. where the rules are always the same in some ways and that it must stick to the norm.
what if ffor a moment we manage to reprogram ourselves and not put the "relationship" tag on our loved once? the "relationship" tag imo is false in the first place (at least what we make of it). since we tend to bind those who fall under this tag to us, and we set rules with alot of expectations that eventually limiting our true nature as beings.

ill be vague here for a moment. so your relationship partner cheated on you. what exactly was cheating? what you have defined as cheating by the rules you have set at the begging of the relationship? lets say sex. did he had sex with another? what does it mean about him? does it mean he doesnt love you? does it mean he isnt "yours" anymore? what if he wasnt yours at the first place?

"relationship" for the most of society means "my", "own", "restrictions"... but most of society just call it norms.

so back again, is it proramming? yes this is programming.

[Enola]

The first thing that came to my mind is that you can give up parts of your identity when you love someone. One of the challenges of the heart center is said to be not to give up your identity for someone you love. I think that's more of a female thing, but it has to be voluntary.

[jimrich]

Most folks who "fall in love" actually fall into NEED! If you really love someone and are not in NEED of them, you will never take away their identity, own them or impose your self upon your beloved partner BUT if NEED is the underlying, driving force of the relationship, all kinds of NEEDY behaviors and demands will slowly or quickly arise as one make the other their prisoner, private possession, crying post, whipping boy, reason to live, sex slave, therapist, go-for, handy man, TROPHY, game-player, alternate sibling or parent to continue the fighting with them, etc.
Love is truly equal, fair, kind, generous, real, loving and never a game player but NEED just can't help it. Most folks are caught in a NEEDY trap with their chosen possession or opponent (not a partner) and conduct their strange relationship game like a contest or drama to see who will win the next round.
By studying relationship skills from a book or on line, most relationships can be turned around and back into loving partnerships instead of war games. This requires brains and guts because it means going up against the garbage many folks got from their very inadequate parents so your parents might give you a bad time about your "new and improved" relationship style and you will cave in and go back to what your very inadequate parents and others gave you so long ago just to be LOYAL to them and not have them upset with you.
It's your life!
Live in love and happiness or go with what your unhappy, miserable parents left for you.
good luck :heart:

[6pounder]

Most folks who "fall in love" actually fall into NEED! If you really love someone and are not in NEED of them, you will never take away their identity, own them or impose your self upon your beloved partner BUT if NEED is the underlying, driving force of the relationship, all kinds of NEEDY behaviors and demands will slowly or quickly arise as one make the other their prisoner, private possession, crying post, whipping boy, reason to live, sex slave, therapist, go-for, handy man, TROPHY, game-player, alternate sibling or parent to continue the fighting with them, etc.
Love is truly equal, fair, kind, generous, real, loving and never a game player but NEED just can't help it. Most folks are caught in a NEEDY trap with their chosen possession or opponent (not a partner) and conduct their strange relationship game like a contest or drama to see who will win the next round.
By studying relationship skills from a book or on line, most relationships can be turned around and back into loving partnerships instead of war games. This requires brains and guts because it means going up against the garbage many folks got from their very inadequate parents so your parents might give you a bad time about your "new and improved" relationship style and you will cave in and go back to what your very inadequate parents and others gave you so long ago just to be LOYAL to them and not have them upset with you.
It's your life!
Live in love and happiness or go with what your unhappy, miserable parents left for you.
good luck :heart:

realy well said!

[6pounder]

Most folks who "fall in love" actually fall into NEED! If you really love someone and are not in NEED of them, you will never take away their identity, own them or impose your self upon your beloved partner BUT if NEED is the underlying, driving force of the relationship, all kinds of NEEDY behaviors and demands will slowly or quickly arise as one make the other their prisoner, private possession, crying post, whipping boy, reason to live, sex slave, therapist, go-for, handy man, TROPHY, game-player, alternate sibling or parent to continue the fighting with them, etc.
Love is truly equal, fair, kind, generous, real, loving and never a game player but NEED just can't help it. Most folks are caught in a NEEDY trap with their chosen possession or opponent (not a partner) and conduct their strange relationship game like a contest or drama to see who will win the next round.
By studying relationship skills from a book or on line, most relationships can be turned around and back into loving partnerships instead of war games. This requires brains and guts because it means going up against the garbage many folks got from their very inadequate parents so your parents might give you a bad time about your "new and improved" relationship style and you will cave in and go back to what your very inadequate parents and others gave you so long ago just to be LOYAL to them and not have them upset with you.
It's your life!
Live in love and happiness or go with what your unhappy, miserable parents left for you.
good luck :heart:

really well said!

[Enola]

BUT if NEED is the underlying, driving force of the relationship, all kinds of NEEDY behaviors and demands will slowly or quickly arise as one make the other their prisoner, private possession, crying post, whipping boy, reason to live, sex slave, therapist, go-for, handy man, TROPHY, game-player, alternate sibling or parent to continue the fighting with them, etc.

LOL. That's quite a long list.

[jimrich]

OH and did I mention such a NEEDY, co-dependent relationship will include: someone to blame for everything that is wrong, your substitute mother or father, the reason for your successes and/or FAILURES, the cause of your excessive drinking or drug use, the reason your kids are so: stupid, mean, inadequate, bad at sports, have such bad report cards, are USELESS, homely, etc., the reason both of you are so poor and never get what you want!
LOL, this sickening list could go on forever because the NEEDY ego can never be satisfied or helped with any form of love and respect whereas the Real You is ALWAYS happy and fulfilled.
Just hope that you and your partner are Real and not 2 unhappy, sour little egos who simply are incapable of making any relationship work.

[Sueanne47]

Jimrich, your describing a narcissist

[ElfeMya]

BUT if NEED is the underlying, driving force of the relationship, all kinds of NEEDY behaviors and demands will slowly or quickly arise as one make the other their prisoner, private possession, crying post, whipping boy, reason to live, sex slave, therapist, go-for, handy man, TROPHY, game-player, alternate sibling or parent to continue the fighting with them, etc.

LOL. That's quite a long list.

Whipping boy ??? What is that ???

¤=[Post Update]=¤


Jimrich, your describing a narcissist

Hihiii this made me laught to tears... no disrespect here whatsoever, I have had the privilege of rubbing more than shoulders with a lot of narc and this is... a perfect comment ! Thanks !

[AutumnW]

Describing a strong bond, as "needing" somebody or wanting to "own" them seems a bit bogus to me...a bid for polyamory that misses the mark when it comes to the potential a monogamous relationship CAN offer.

People into polyamory defend it from a moral high ground that seems emotionally insincere. They are not intensely 'loving' several partners simultaneously. They may like their partners, but it is the exception that someone could actually experience the intensity we call 'love' for more than one person.

Many people can't sustain the level of respect commitment and adoration for ONE significant other. That's just one of the many reasons we have such impoverished marriages in our culture of narcissism. And in a narcissistic culture, throw away relationships, defined as glorifying independence, are a contributing factor -- and a bleak state of being. The spiritually vapid emphasis on detachment is a profoundly destructive force.

[ElfeMya]

Just found this...
VLH7yUwkBPg

[Orph]

I must be missing something. To me anyway, what people here seem to be talking about is relationships. Relationships aren't love. You can love a person. You can love your pets. You can love eating pizza. But if you require something in return, then it's a relationship. (Well, okay. I require a pizza to taste good, so I guess that's a relationship). :lol:

Love is. That's it. Love simply ...... IS.

Relationships are games we play in this drama we call life. And since it is all a game, you can look at it as either right or wrong, good or bad, happy or sad, fulfilling or draining. This very thread is part of the game. We are all here interacting, sharing our thoughts, having a laugh or maybe getting chafed under the skin. We're in a temporary relationship here. Damnit. You ran off to another thread. I'm so hurt. ....... Wait. You're back. YAAAAAAAY. :p

It's all a game we play. And after it's all said and done, ........... LOVE IS. :sun:

{And now, back to your regular scheduled drama}.

[Sueanne47]

Love is .......

34220

:sun::flower:

[AutumnW]

We are a narcissistic culture and our relationships often reflect this. A truly loving relationship is not a game. A game requires elements of luck and also revealing some pertinent info while concealing other information. This is the essence of a narcissistic attachment. You can have fun within a relationship -- but when you relegate your interactions with significant others to game status, you are demeaning them.

[Pam]

an individual is like a flower - if you dont want it to wither, dont pluck it. let it be a beautifull flower as it is.

in simple words (and a long explanation) -
people tend to think that once they have found their pair, twin flame, soulmate, etc...
they need to change them to fit into their way of living which in most cases is very similar as puting a cage on them. an invisible one.



during my experiance i was one of those who once they get their girlfriend they start to do everything to change their mate's lifes in order to feel that they are comitted to the relationship. and it is usually by stricting the other from what he is in his single life.

meeting friends of the opposite gender, wearing provocative clothes, going to crowded places, etc...

one must understand that changing others behaivior is building a "cage" instead of a relationship. we all are free individuals and we all want to experiance our lives in any way we want to. a relationship does not mean giving up on your dreams and desires for another. relationship means tagging along to some one you love and respect and getting him into your "bubble" but keeping in mind he is there because he wants to, not because he needs to.

people used to monogamy. and in my honest openion its a cage. a brainwash by sociaty that goes for long time now. the more we are awake, the more we realize that LOVE is not a thing we have for one individual. LOVE is here in us to give to everyone in any way we think of.

taking once freedom and building a "cage" around them, stricting them from being who they are, makes the relationship not based on "love" but based on self ego and self lack of confidance. which leads to eventually one of the sides misserable living in a cage and being denied of his/her freedom.

thats my take on love and individuality. what is yours my dear avalonian friends?



I would have loved to have the wisdom that you do when I was your age, 6pounder. It is so true that the "love" people usually talk about when they are in a romantic relationship is anything but love, most of the time it is the antithesis of love. Most of the time the thing we call love is our attempt to have someone behave in ways that builds up our ego, to fulfill our physical desires. We end up wanting to control the other person, to have them conform and behave in ways that enhances the illusion we have of ourselves. We learn to manipulate and deceive to get the relationship the we want it.

A relationship can also have the the huge spiritual potential to teach us about acceptance and unconditional love.We can have opportunities to practice self control and exercise loyalty and honesty. We can learn to work for the benefit of the group(family) whether than seeking only for self. I have seen monogamous relationships that have been to the benefit of both and of course I have seen tragedies and ridiculous satires of marriage as well.

[AutumnW]

No, I have never had a friends with benefits. If I really liked someone I think that would be hard, but if two people can do it I see nothing wrong with it. The only way it would work for me is if I was attracted to a women but didn't want a relationship. I have found that usually one side wants a relationship though.

I am in awe of people able to do it, I personally can't. Each time I try to visualize it, it looks like a pretty glossy magazine thing but nothing resonates that much, it does not seem to fit with ... my inner nature. Do you think it is all because of our programming ?

On one extreme you have people suffocating their partners in a socially sanctioned monogamous embrace. The other extreme is populated by those who end up commodifying others in the mistaken notion that the empty exercise of "loving" many, sexually, represents freedom for themselves AND others.

Hay Autumn, correct me if I am wrong... trying to really understand this.
One one hand those who are trying to be monogamous and by forcing themselves onto that path end up with a lot of unfulfilled desires and unhappiness and expecations put on their mate that creates the suffocating ( therefore that " don't cut the flower " that 6pounder introduced when he started that thread ) and causes ruin and disarray in the relationship.

On the other hand those who took the opposite path : never settling down and forcing themselves too somehow to have multiple lover and be polyamor even if if also leaves them with a big bunch of unfulfilled needs and desires and expectations that are not taken care of...
If I got this right, this is like people going on a circle, whether they start the journey on thr right part or the left part they end up going around being unhappy. Sucks.

How do we reconcile this ?

Basically. Either way, both modes of being are harmful. Open relationships can work, sometimes. There are those who are cut out for it and can manage it. I am in no position to judge.

But often when I read about 'freedom,' in the context of a romantic or marriage relationship, it brings to mind a situation where the man (most often) is waxing philosophical about freedom, all encompassing love and blah blah blah, when he would simply like to have multiple affairs. If he encourages his partner to do the same, (when she is hesitant) he is being emotionally coercive. Women are wired for exclusive relationships with one partner.

ElfeMya, sometimes people who have multiple simultaneous partners are fulfilled, in the way they perceive and feel fulfillment. I think they leave a swathe of destruction, in their wake, though. Freedom is a slippery concept.

[AutumnW]

an individual is like a flower - if you dont want it to wither, dont pluck it. let it be a beautifull flower as it is.

in simple words (and a long explanation) -
people tend to think that once they have found their pair, twin flame, soulmate, etc...
they need to change them to fit into their way of living which in most cases is very similar as puting a cage on them. an invisible one.



during my experiance i was one of those who once they get their girlfriend they start to do everything to change their mate's lifes in order to feel that they are comitted to the relationship. and it is usually by stricting the other from what he is in his single life.

meeting friends of the opposite gender, wearing provocative clothes, going to crowded places, etc...

one must understand that changing others behaivior is building a "cage" instead of a relationship. we all are free individuals and we all want to experiance our lives in any way we want to. a relationship does not mean giving up on your dreams and desires for another. relationship means tagging along to some one you love and respect and getting him into your "bubble" but keeping in mind he is there because he wants to, not because he needs to.

people used to monogamy. and in my honest openion its a cage. a brainwash by sociaty that goes for long time now. the more we are awake, the more we realize that LOVE is not a thing we have for one individual. LOVE is here in us to give to everyone in any way we think of.

taking once freedom and building a "cage" around them, stricting them from being who they are, makes the relationship not based on "love" but based on self ego and self lack of confidance. which leads to eventually one of the sides misserable living in a cage and being denied of his/her freedom.

thats my take on love and individuality. what is yours my dear avalonian friends?



I would have loved to have the wisdom that you do when I was your age, 6pounder. It is so true that the "love" people usually talk about when they are in a romantic relationship is anything but love, most of the time it is the antithesis of love. Most of the time the thing we call love is our attempt to have someone behave in ways that builds up our ego, to fulfill our physical desires. We end up wanting to control the other person, to have them conform and behave in ways that enhances the illusion we have of ourselves. We learn to manipulate and deceive to get the relationship the we want it.

A relationship can also have the the huge spiritual potential to teach us about acceptance and unconditional love.We can have opportunities to practice self control and exercise loyalty and honesty. We can learn to work for the benefit of the group(family) whether than seeking only for self. I have seen monogamous relationships that have been to the benefit of both and of course I have seen tragedies and ridiculous satires of marriage as well.

Ditto Peter Pam. I had a 'discussion' with somebody on a forum years ago about the 'sanctity' of marriage. Framing the institution of marriage this way just raises the profane to sentimental heights, based on some dumb ass religion's idea of the 'sacred.' A good half of marriages are mutually parasitic. A good marriage offers an oasis of security and delight in an emotionally arid or stressful world. A bad marriage? Shudder.

[neutronstar]

Basically. Either way, both modes of being are harmful. Open relationships can work, sometimes. There are those who are cut out for it and can manage it. I am in no position to judge.

But often when I read about 'freedom,' in the context of a romantic or marriage relationship, it brings to mind a situation where the man (most often) is waxing philosophical about freedom, all encompassing love and blah blah blah, when he would simply like to have multiple affairs. If he encourages his partner to do the same, (when she is hesitant) he is being emotionally coercive. Women are wired for exclusive relationships with one partner.

ElfeMya, sometimes people who have multiple simultaneous partners are fulfilled, in the way they perceive and feel fulfillment. I think they leave a swathe of destruction, in their wake, though. Freedom is a slippery concept.

I think the bottom line is we are all a little dysfunctional in this classroom called earth.

I am reminded of a story Eckhart Tolle describes in his book "a new earth" about a spiritual master that is in total acceptance of the present moment. I will probably butcher the story a little but you will get the point.

There was a spiritual master who lived in this village, and one day this women, who had just had a child from a man that had left her, knocks on his door. He opens the door and she says to him, "this is your child take care of it". The master takes the child without question and tends to it's every need. A few months goes by and then she knocks on his door again. The master answers it. She says to him, "the child is not yours give it back to me", so he dose without question.

The point of the story is the master was in complete acceptance of the present moment. Whatever was required of him he did with nonresistance. I don't think there are many people in this world that are at that level.

The point I'm trying to make is most all of us resist the world and try to make it the way we want it to be. Whether we are in an open relationship or a monogamous one, we resist what is.

[AutumnW]

Neuronstar, I understand what you are saying, but Tolle is taking a spiritual concept here and misapplying it. Being, 'in the moment,' or acceptance without resistance can be as destructive in some cases as it is helpful.

Taken another way, the woman who gives up a baby, has a problem. The man who easily gives up a child he should have formed a bond with, without resistance or questions, has a problem. Being 'in the moment,' shouldn't be a primer on how to live lives that require planning and care and concern, for others.

For sure though, I get that we have to know when to relax and let go without bitterness. But Tolle seems to be saying something here that represents a kind of fatalism radiating from Eastern philosophies, that are excuses for inaction and also exclude us from bonding with others. Not a complement to the atomized culture we find ourselves in..

I have friends whose response to everything is to 'be in the moment.' They take it such extremes, that they can seem callously indifferent to others.

[greybeard]

Neuronstar, I understand what you are saying, but Tolle is taking a spiritual concept here and misapplying it. Being, 'in the moment,' or acceptance without resistance can be as destructive in some cases as it is helpful.

Taken another way, the woman who gives up a baby, has a problem. The man who easily gives up a child he should have formed a bond with, without resistance or questions, has a problem. Being 'in the moment,' shouldn't be a primer on how to live lives that require planning and care and concern, for others.

For sure though, I get that we have to know when to relax and let go without bitterness. But Tolle seems to be saying something here that represents a kind of fatalism radiating from Eastern philosophies, that are excuses for inaction and also exclude us from bonding with others. Not a complement to the atomized culture we find ourselves in..

I have friends whose response to everything is to 'be in the moment.' They take it such extremes, that they can seem callously indifferent to others.

When quotes are taken out of context misunderstanding happens.

Eckhart Tolle also said elsewhere that "You are not a door mat"

There is the concept of "Right action" this tends to happen when there is some understanding of spirituality.

So to go about saying "All is well" --is not what Tolle teaches--

There might be times that action is not required--then all is well.
He suggests not to have a knee jerk reaction --when the mind is clear then right action will happen.

To say that Tolle does not teach compassion or that enlightened paths do not include service to others is just not so.

There are paradoxes in spiritual teaching.

Hope this helps.

Chris

[6pounder]

i would like to point the definition of freedom on this matter of relationship.
i see this a concept of let me be who i am and accept me for what i am. its like its not expected of people to instinctivly to go this way but it can be better for both sides or better i say for ourselves if we would first understand our needs and true nature.

monogamy or polyarmy, its not the point of it. those terms are a part of the "relationship" concept. and the concept itself is wrong. we are individuals. we have passions in life and needs some physical some spiritual.
now the idea of freedom in anything about yourself and the people you are attracted to (this is all what i think, no real facts here) is that the common need to try and put them under a tag of relationship in order to keep them close is false.
what should be is that we let ourselves not to be controlled nor limited by those we choose to live our life in their company.

as its been said - love is accepting, respecting and trusting another. then if the other wants to go and have sex with someone else YOU should accept that and within yourself. accept HIM as WHO he is and his wants and needs. RESPECT him and TRUST him. caz eventualy you do not give him love to get it back. you give him love caz you want to. thats what UNCONDITIONAL is. on the other hand you do not get attached to him so you wont be driven by emotions to his manipulations when trying to deny your wants and needs.

all that is an answer to some one who feels like the treditional "relationship" system is against his or hers nature.
but if its prefferd by you to put limitations and expectations that your partner, an individual who has his own freedon, to accept the rules you have set for him in order to be with, then its completely fine thats the norm anyway...

[greybeard]

By coincidence the Eckhart Tolle news letter just arrived and it is very relevant to this thread--as far as I can see.
I pasted it in below
Chris

The question asked of Eckhart.
My loneliness at not having a life partner is an obstacle to my spiritual development.

ET: There’s a part in every person—who you are on the level of form—that tends either towards the male or the female, and it doesn’t necessarily depend on the physical form. You tend either towards the male or the female and, therefore, you’re not complete because you’re only one half on the level of form—which can be the physical form or the psychological or emotional form just underneath that. And so, there is a natural longing for the other polarity—the completeness in a human being—and you can feel that as an ‘ah!’ that goes beyond sexual longing. There’s more to it than that.

There’s also an emotional longing for the other; they go together. There’s that pull that you can feel on the level of form, and when that is not satisfied, then that can lead to unhappiness, particularly if you have not transcended your identification with form.

If you’re still totally identified with you as this physical form and psychological form, the transcendent dimension has not come into your life at all. Then, you will become very dissatisfied—which also depends to some extent on what culture you live in. There are traditional cultures on our planet where you almost have to find a partner or everybody will look down on you as being a total and miserable failure.

But here in the West, it’s a little easier to step out of those collective expectations. It is more acceptable to say, “My choice is not to get married.” And you can even say, “My choice is not to have children,” and people say, “Okay.” So, there’s a bit more freedom and yet the emotional or the sexual longing for the other on the form level is still there.

The essence is to be able to transcend who you are on the level of form. Whether or not you find a partner that meets that longing, or whether you go from one partner to another and another, or whether you find one partner for the rest of your life—that is all secondary, really. Because even if you have a partner, if you have not gone deeper and encountered the transcendent dimension to who you are beyond the form identity then you won’t be satisfied in relationship. In the absence of the transcendent dimension, the spiritual dimension, you may come to some kind of compromise or manage to stay together but you’ll actually have a longing to get out!

So, the people who are out of relationships have a longing to get in, and those who are in have a longing to get out. In the absence of a partner, it is quite possible to notice a certain sense of lack on the level of form and yet maintain a lot of spaciousness around that sense of lack. You recognize, “yes, I can feel that there is a longing,” but the longing does not consume you; the longing has not taken possession of you, making you into an unhappy person, perhaps a totally unfulfilled and bitter person. No, the longing is there but exists within the spaciousness that is the transcendent dimension. Who you are is not the unfulfilled longing; who you are is the presence or the stillness around it. That is the shift.

So the longing may persist, but you can live with it; however if you are no longer trapped in the longing, it’s also quite possible that a change will come into your life, particularly if the intense neediness goes.

If not, then everybody you meet can feel the neediness. You’ve given somebody you just met your phone number and you are waiting for them to call, but they are less likely to call when the neediness is there. They’re more likely to call when a certain spaciousness is there.

Of course you can take action towards meeting somebody. You might not meet the most conscious people in bars, but there are other places one can go to meet people—even the Internet. Why not? Many people meet that way, but even there, if you haven’t gone beyond the absolute neediness then it’s less likely to work out for you. But if you have that sense of inner spaciousness around the longing, then the way in which you approach others changes.

So my suggestion then is, see how and where you could meet people and explore. Perhaps you will find somebody here or there. To realize that the transcendence is the most vital thing does not exclude the possibility of taking action on an outer level. Of course, that is always secondary, but why not? The longing will just become a thing that’s no longer overwhelming and then, take action and see what happens.

[neutronstar]

i would like to point the definition of freedom on this matter of relationship.
i see this a concept of let me be who i am and accept me for what i am. its like its not expected of people to instinctivly to go this way but it can be better for both sides or better i say for ourselves if we would first understand our needs and true nature.

monogamy or polyarmy, its not the point of it. those terms are a part of the "relationship" concept. and the concept itself is wrong. we are individuals. we have passions in life and needs some physical some spiritual.
now the idea of freedom in anything about yourself and the people you are attracted to (this is all what i think, no real facts here) is that the common need to try and put them under a tag of relationship in order to keep them close is false.
what should be is that we let ourselves not to be controlled nor limited by those we choose to live our life in their company.

as its been said - love is accepting, respecting and trusting another. then if the other wants to go and have sex with someone else YOU should accept that and within yourself. accept HIM as WHO he is and his wants and needs. RESPECT him and TRUST him. caz eventualy you do not give him love to get it back. you give him love caz you want to. thats what UNCONDITIONAL is. on the other hand you do not get attached to him so you wont be driven by emotions to his manipulations when trying to deny your wants and needs.

all that is an answer to some one who feels like the treditional "relationship" system is against his or hers nature.
but if its prefferd by you to put limitations and expectations that your partner, an individual who has his own freedon, to accept the rules you have set for him in order to be with, then its completely fine thats the norm anyway...

I get what your saying and I think the world you want is what it is like in our real home. Heaven if you want to call it that. But I think this world is a long way from that. I really doubt it will change in our lifetime.

[6pounder]

i would like to point the definition of freedom on this matter of relationship.
i see this a concept of let me be who i am and accept me for what i am. its like its not expected of people to instinctivly to go this way but it can be better for both sides or better i say for ourselves if we would first understand our needs and true nature.

monogamy or polyarmy, its not the point of it. those terms are a part of the "relationship" concept. and the concept itself is wrong. we are individuals. we have passions in life and needs some physical some spiritual.
now the idea of freedom in anything about yourself and the people you are attracted to (this is all what i think, no real facts here) is that the common need to try and put them under a tag of relationship in order to keep them close is false.
what should be is that we let ourselves not to be controlled nor limited by those we choose to live our life in their company.

as its been said - love is accepting, respecting and trusting another. then if the other wants to go and have sex with someone else YOU should accept that and within yourself. accept HIM as WHO he is and his wants and needs. RESPECT him and TRUST him. caz eventualy you do not give him love to get it back. you give him love caz you want to. thats what UNCONDITIONAL is. on the other hand you do not get attached to him so you wont be driven by emotions to his manipulations when trying to deny your wants and needs.

all that is an answer to some one who feels like the treditional "relationship" system is against his or hers nature.
but if its prefferd by you to put limitations and expectations that your partner, an individual who has his own freedon, to accept the rules you have set for him in order to be with, then its completely fine thats the norm anyway...

I get what your saying and I think the world you want is what it is like in our real home. Heaven if you want to call it that. But I think this world is a long way from that. I really doubt it will change in our lifetime.

the change is in our actions and in the example we give others with our way of life and actions. we do not need to change THE world. we need to change OUR OWN world. what we experiance on our individual journey. some will take from us those ways and will pass it on to others and so on. some of todays norm ware born this way.

[AutumnW]

6pounder,

You have the best of intentions, but the world you describe, IMHO, is not about freedom. It sounds good, it resonates with our sense of personal sovereignty but it is a trick of the mind over the emotions.

[greybeard]

6pounder I am very positive about the future because your generation has evolved greatly from mine.
I am impressed with your out look.
A lot of people of your age are far further on spiritual than I was even at the age of forty.
The sale of spiritual books is at an all time high.
Most of the young people I know are balanced and in stable relationships.

Best wishes
Chris

[neutronstar]

Neuronstar, I understand what you are saying, but Tolle is taking a spiritual concept here and misapplying it. Being, 'in the moment,' or acceptance without resistance can be as destructive in some cases as it is helpful.

Taken another way, the woman who gives up a baby, has a problem. The man who easily gives up a child he should have formed a bond with, without resistance or questions, has a problem. Being 'in the moment,' shouldn't be a primer on how to live lives that require planning and care and concern, for others.

For sure though, I get that we have to know when to relax and let go without bitterness. But Tolle seems to be saying something here that represents a kind of fatalism radiating from Eastern philosophies, that are excuses for inaction and also exclude us from bonding with others. Not a complement to the atomized culture we find ourselves in..

I have friends whose response to everything is to 'be in the moment.' They take it such extremes, that they can seem callously indifferent to others.

Your taking the story to literally. It really had nothing to do with the women or the man who father the child. The point is the master accepted what ever God wanted him to do. The women which the master saw as the embodiment of God, "God lives in all of us" does what God commands without question.

Yes a lot of people use the phrase, " Living in the moment" but they have no idea what it really entails, and they never experience it. When sports figures say they were in the zone, they have no idea what they just experienced. What they did, was experience the present moment. Being in the now as Eckhart describes. The world becomes brighter, times slows down. There is an intense focus. But they don't recognize it for what it is, the present moment. They can't hold it for very long and fall back into time.

[neutronstar]

the change is in our actions and in the example we give others with our way of life and actions. we do not need to change THE world. we need to change OUR OWN world. what we experiance on our individual journey. some will take from us those ways and will pass it on to others and so on. some of todays norm ware born this way.

You are exactly right. I misunderstood you. I thought you wanted to change the world.

[Sueanne47]

If a wife or husband decides to have sex outside of a marriage, that sexual bond in the affair strengthens their relationship and 'could' turn to falling in love. That means a marriage falls apart because the two that are in it are unhappy.

I know a gay person who uses gay people for sex, and they are using him as well, he isnt happy because he cant have a deep, meaningful relationship like you get with 2 people.

[AutumnW]

Greybeard,

I think it's a stretch to say that millennials, (for example) are farther along spiritually than we are or were. I see many ways they are spiritually more mature at a younger age. I also see the 'hooking up' lifestyle to be full of self serving illusion -- and that is within or outside of a primary relationship. The currency of love is cheapened in that case. It's like inflation in currency. Real deep love is RARE in any individual's lifetime, and if they tell you different they are just further cheapening the currency.

[greybeard]

Greybeard,

I think it's a stretch to say that millennials, (for example) are farther along spiritually than we are or were. I see many ways they are spiritually more mature at a younger age. I also see the 'hooking up' lifestyle to be full of self serving illusion -- and that is within or outside of a primary relationship. The currency of love is cheapened in that case. It's like inflation in currency. Real deep love is RARE in any individual's lifetime, and if they tell you different they are just further cheapening the currency.

Maybe Im just being over positive and hopeful.
The good is getting better and the "bad"is getting worse.
Thats almost a Tolle quote --smiling.
He helped me a lot through "The Power of Now" his concept of pain body is phenomenal.

The thing is different strokes for different folks in all ways.
It really is difficult to have a truly loving relationship--giving space to the other.
I kind of see it as a triangle There is You, There is me,There is the relationship. If all sides of the triangle are equal then there is great stability.

Best wishes
Chris

[6pounder]

It really is difficult to have a truly loving relationship--giving space to the other.


if we come into a relationship giving it 50% of ourselves and keeping the other 50% to us, and thats what both sides do then its healty.
on the other hand if one of the sides is giving all is 100%, meaning his all life is revolving the relationship without anything like other things like hobbies or things he used to do be the relationship. the other one who didnt put his other 50% and does try to keep being who he is and keep on doing what he did befor the relationship become choked by it.

[jimrich]

When Irene and I started our relationship (2nd marriage) we made several agreements based on a few things we learned from relationship books, specifically from Barbara DeAngelis and the late David Viscott.
We seriously applied these few concepts to our marriage and have been extremely happy the whole time - until Irene crossed over a few months ago.
The concepts we followed were:
1. 100% honesty, truthfulness and respect ALL OF THE TIME - not just if & when it could get something from our partner.
2. Frequent and sincere affection WITHOUT some hidden agenda. This also includes being very best friends ALL OF THE TIME!
3. The 20 second kiss - a practice which involves a very long, friendly, light kiss that is held or 20 seconds OR MORE and not meant to get our partner into bed or win some "favor". It's more of a closeness and intimacy gesture than the customary "peck on the cheek" kiss that many partners fall into after the "honeymoon" is over.
4. Learn how to "fight fair" rather than stoop to hitting below the belt or running away from the discussion. This is important since stressful issues may arising in any relationship and need to be worked out in a "win-win" style rather than a "winner takes all" style of conflict resolution. We had to work at this since both of us came from families where you fight to the death over every single disagreement! There are friendly and compassionate ways to work on difficult issues but that would take more space to explain here so, google: relationship skills or get a few relationship books and learn how - like we did.
5. Keep the love and respect just as strong and alive as it was from the very beginning and never let laziness, carelessness, bad manners, boredom, affairs, ridicule, teasing or indifference disable your love for each other. Keep your wedding vows!

There are a few other skills and concepts that interested partners can find in many relationship books or on line. The basic idea for us was to stay just as much in love as we were from the beginning and never let what killed our 1st marriages happen to us in our 2nd marriages. We stayed true to our commitments to each other ALL OF THE TIME to have and enjoy 26 years of wedded bliss, friendship and passionate LOVE. :heart:

[Anchor]

thats my take on love and individuality. what is yours my dear avalonian friends?

If you need build a cage around your partner and things like that - or any attempt to "change" them, then you are basically using a negative energy and imposing your will. As you have discovered, the positive energy way requires non-infringement on your partners freewill and it works much better for those majority of us who are NOT evolving on a negative path!

Mr and Mrs Anchor have been together a while and we are still happy, yet we don't behave like most couples we know.

We are happy with our company when together. We are happy with the company of ourselves alone doing different things. Neither of us have many friends. We are happy this way. Right now, I am on my computer at the other end of the house while she is doing something else - tv, reading, I don't really know at the moment. I know its ok though.

We would never dream of trying to change each other if we had no desire to change, that is to say infringing on the others free-will. So that doesn't, for example, mean she couldn't ask me to put the loo-seat down or other such trivia and then nag me when I forget :) Over time I get out of the habits that annoy her and vice versa. She doesn't change me though, I changed something I didn't mind changing because she wanted me to change - it works the other way around too. When I met her she smoked, and I didn't, I didn't make her stop but it was obvious I think at the time that I preferred her not to.

Although we cant imagine how we would live without the other, neither are we "dependent" on each-other asides from the practicalities of doing the jobs that are more suited to our bodies. I am stronger and can do more with heavy machines and tools, Mrs A is an awesome cook, great with plants etc - over time there is a natural division of labor and sharing of time appropriately for our joint goals for our lives together.

Spiritually, just be willing collaborators in each-others journey. It turns out that Mrs A has a different approach to me on how we take our own inner journey - her framework of understanding and perspective is different to mine, but we have sufficient overlap that we are useful to each other in so far as diversity of opinion and thought - this makes us very strong and we can be more supportive for each other as we are each in our own ruts and not both stuck in the same one at the same time!

Communicate honestly no matter how hard that can be sometimes - you have got to keep that blue ray throat chakra open. This is the glue that keeps it all working. The love is ALWAYS there, but it can get blocked in expression from time to time and you have to work on those blocks.

Finally don't judge your relationship by the standards set by others - opinions are useful when you ask for them, but you'll find your own way one way or another, and bugger what anyone else thinks - especially judgemental types that want to tell you you are doing it all wrong !

[ElfeMya]

thats my take on love and individuality. what is yours my dear avalonian friends?

If you need build a cage around your partner and things like that - or any attempt to "change" them, then you are basically using a negative energy and imposing your will. As you have discovered, the positive energy way requires non-infringement on your partners freewill and it works much better for those majority of us who are NOT evolving on a negative path!

Mr and Mrs Anchor have been together a while and we are still happy, yet we don't behave like most couples we know.

We are happy with our company when together. We are happy with the company of ourselves alone doing different things. Neither of us have many friends. We are happy this way. Right now, I am on my computer at the other end of the house while she is doing something else - tv, reading, I don't really know at the moment. I know its ok though.

We would never dream of trying to change each other if we had no desire to change, that is to say infringing on the others free-will. So that doesn't, for example, mean she couldn't ask me to put the loo-seat down or other such trivia and then nag me when I forget :) Over time I get out of the habits that annoy her and vice versa. She doesn't change me though, I changed something I didn't mind changing because she wanted me to change - it works the other way around too. When I met her she smoked, and I didn't, I didn't make her stop but it was obvious I think at the time that I preferred her not to.

Although we cant imagine how we would live without the other, neither are we "dependent" on each-other asides from the practicalities of doing the jobs that are more suited to our bodies. I am stronger and can do more with heavy machines and tools, Mrs A is an awesome cook, great with plants etc - over time there is a natural division of labor and sharing of time appropriately for our joint goals for our lives together.

Spiritually, just be willing collaborators in each-others journey. It turns out that Mrs A has a different approach to me on how we take our own inner journey - her framework of understanding and perspective is different to mine, but we have sufficient overlap that we are useful to each other in so far as diversity of opinion and thought - this makes us very strong and we can be more supportive for each other as we are each in our own ruts and not both stuck in the same one at the same time!

Communicate honestly no matter how hard that can be sometimes - you have got to keep that blue ray throat chakra open. This is the glue that keeps it all working. The love is ALWAYS there, but it can get blocked in expression from time to time and you have to work on those blocks.

Finally don't judge your relationship by the standards set by others - opinions are useful when you ask for them, but you'll find your own way one way or another, and bugger what anyone else thinks - especially judgemental types that want to tell you you are doing it all wrong !

Anchor there are lots of things in your post that are resonating with me very mcuh and actaully describing my experience with relationships. I tend to think of people coming together in that set up as a team that puts their respective skills and characteristics on the table and by combining both or using them when needed separately, the pair is much stronger and weel equiped to deal with life's challenge, all kind of challenges, those coming from our inner make -up and those thrown at us by circumstances. I particularly appreciated your approach of the smoking as I cam accorss this recently and did not take the same path you did. I cared so much for that person, the smoking really annoyed me but now, learning from your angle, I realize there was a better way to deal with this.

6pounder and fellow Avalonians, thanks so much for starting this thread and contributing to it, the sharing that occurred here has made me richer and wiser and I am really looking forward to learn more and apply this newly found knowledge to the interactions with myself and others.

We discussed expectations within a relationships in another channel and to me the best way to deal with that is to use the honest communication in a not harmful way. I have found from my personal journey that any hardship is a lot easier to deal with when both people in the experience know what the other means and feels and thinks and wants and why. Sharing the expectaions actually allowed me to open up to my partner a lot more and him to get to know me in a deep meaningful way. It also revealed waht was truly important for both os uf ( and to ourselves at times as well ) and each time we had that kind of discussion, the situation shifted, including topics as sensitive than sex with other people or time spent with other people and different kind of behaviors.

For me the so called "cheating" has a lot to do with my own inner world and balance. I have experienced both sides of the fence, even though I did not materialize the urge to do it, it felt so strong that it gave me the opportunity to feel and explore what it meant for me. Beyond the need for sex ( the healthy need for sexual activity ) and the need for connection ( deep meaningful connection with other humans or one other person ), there was a world of matters that were very personal to me and that although tied up to the sexual activity had nothing to do really with it. I had tied them up together in my mind through past experiences and decisions but it was something special that I created within from my past traumas. It had very little to do with my partner in the end or the person I coveted during that time. It had to do with my beliefs, my perception of life/reality/what thigs were and self esteem and a lot of pther very personal things.

As I see it, relationships are a playground like any other and the great advantage of it is that it gets me to interact in the fields of the heart, the body, the needs, the beliefs , the connection to someone, the ability to walk the talk when it comes to acceptance, selfless love, giving and receiving etc.

I personally give my 100 % to a relationship and it is pertty intense, I don't see myself capable of handling that kind of level of experience and intensity and intimacy and connection to lots of people at once, I value having a special moment with the person or the people I am with and being in the now, living the experience and not being distracted or absent minded and when I do that, there is no need for me to be experiencing something lse with somebody else like I am trying ten brands of hot dogs before picking my fave.

I am in awe and very respectful of people being able to be with multiple partners at once howeer what I have also witnessed was people just " shopping". They were not establishing connection and they never looked satisfied by their experience with different partners. It was like an eternal quest, like buying iphones after iphones and in the end, this is a lot of pain.
My goal would be to create something joyful and not that endless empty feeling of not being able to be and feel good while sahrig intimacy with someone, whoever is that someone and whathever are the circumstances.

Thanks a lot once again and hugs to all !

[Foxie Loxie]

We belong to a great Forum when one can receive such wonderful advice as given by many; in this case, jimrich, ElfeMya & Anchor! It is so interesting to see how each of us has dealt with what has come along in our personal journey. I commend you, 6pounder, on seeking out the answers & also questioning things! In this life, we never "arrive", we just keep learning as we go. It seems an important lesson is to learn that each of us is "enough" within him or herself. Keep asking questions & be true to YOURSELF!! :idea: Know who YOU are, then take it from there. You create your own "reality"....what do you want that to be? :heart:

[AutumnW]

It really is difficult to have a truly loving relationship--giving space to the other.


if we come into a relationship giving it 50% of ourselves and keeping the other 50% to us, and thats what both sides do then its healty.
on the other hand if one of the sides is giving all is 100%, meaning his all life is revolving the relationship without anything like other things like hobbies or things he used to do be the relationship. the other one who didnt put his other 50% and does try to keep being who he is and keep on doing what he did befor the relationship become choked by it.

6pounder, in Western society, something I have noticed in the last 20 years, is women with young children demanding freedom, insisting on nights out with their friends, developing their potential etc.. etc... and framing it purely as a feminist issue. They are quite happy to corral their mates and stifle the Hell out of them, though. I find men that are being over powered and henpecked essentially, develop a look of defeat.

My husband and I had a friend, a few years ago, who was "not allowed" to leave the house except to go to work. On occasion, his wife 'allowed,' him to go out for coffee. This guy wasn't a drinker or looking to have an affair. He just wanted to pursue some of his passions for adult conversation with like minded people.

You are absolutely right that partners need to be able to pursue extra-curricular activities outside the home without a prison guard giving them a day pass.

Can you imagine if a woman was oppressed like this by a man. There would be Hell to pay and a ton of social censure. And yet, I find so many women happily do this to men, because the social politics are all on their side now.

[AutumnW]

Elfemya,

The whole "cheating" issue is so fraught with illusion, too. If one partner is withholding emotionally, physically, etc...making intimacy impossible, can the other partner be seriously labelled a "cheat" if they end up stepping out on them?

[greybeard]

Elfemya,

The whole "cheating" issue is so fraught with illusion, too. If one partner is withholding emotionally, physically, etc...making intimacy impossible, can the other partner be seriously labelled a "cheat" if they end up stepping out on them?

I agree and for me the important word is intimacy, in the fullness of the meaning of that word.

Chris

[jimrich]

I very much appreciate and like this post...........


Mr and Mrs Anchor have been together a while and we are still happy, yet we don't behave like most couples we know.
This was true for us as well. (Irene is over there now)


We are happy with our company when together. We are happy with the company of ourselves alone doing different things. Neither of us have many friends. We are happy this way. Right now, I am on my computer at the other end of the house while she is doing something else - tv, reading, I don't really know at the moment. I know its ok though.
We were happy with each other in any and all circumstances because of trust, respect and sincere love.


We would never dream of trying to change each other if we had no desire to change, that is to say infringing on the others free-will. So that doesn't, for example, mean she couldn't ask me to put the loo-seat down or other such trivia and then nag me when I forget :) Over time I get out of the habits that annoy her and vice versa. She doesn't change me though, I changed something I didn't mind changing because she wanted me to change - it works the other way around too.
We liked and loved each other just as we were so there was never a need or impulse to "make" the other one do or be such and such. I knew what "bothered" her about my behavior or habits and modified them the best I could out of love and respect for her. I loved her to the point of NOT wanting to hurt or upset her with my "behavior" but there were never any demands or conflicts over how we were. We lived in cooperation with each other - a very rare situation.


When I met her she smoked, and I didn't, I didn't make her stop but it was obvious I think at the time that I preferred her not to.
Same here and she finally stopped because she sincerely wanted to stop.


Although we cant imagine how we would live without the other, neither are we "dependent" on each-other asides from the practicalities of doing the jobs that are more suited to our bodies.
In our case, I was prone to being "co-dependent" due to my upbringing, which would take a few pages to explain, but basically, I was the "middle child" and was programmed to be a "doormat" but that did not inspire my late wife to take advantage of and/or use me. She was the 1st born so we were a perfect match with her as my loving leader and me as her loving follower. We operated perfectly!


Spiritually, just be willing collaborators in each-others journey.
Willing collaborators is the essence of a good relationship and we studied and learned to do that since neither of us came from a cooperative family. We grew up fighting for everything so learning to collaborate or cooperate was both new and fun for us.


Communicate honestly no matter how hard that can be sometimes - you have got to keep that blue ray throat chakra open. This is the glue that keeps it all working. The love is ALWAYS there, but it can get blocked in expression from time to time and you have to work on those blocks.
100% honesty was the main glue for us and I especially had to work on it since I'd grown up HAVING TO BE a total liar and sneak! We worked very seriously on our "blocks" and finally became honest and trustworthy FRIENDS.


Finally don't judge your relationship by the standards set by others - especially judgemental types that want to tell you you are doing it all wrong!
LOL, we ran into a lot of resistance and even animosity from family members and strangers over our open expressions of love and affection but their jealousy and punitive behavior never stopped us from being warm, loving and AFFECTIONATE with each other once we learned that we had the right to be. Thanks for posting this........ :heart:

[jimrich]

They are quite happy to corral their mates and stifle the Hell out of them, though. I find men that are being over powered and henpecked essentially, develop a look of defeat.
That's how it was in my 1st marriage but I was a spineless participant in the codependent drama of boss and doormat. After a little therapy and learning that I have "rights", I began to stand up for my self which didn't set well with my prison guard wife so all hell broke out!:muscle: I ended up leaving her!


My husband and I had a friend, a few years ago, who was "not allowed" to leave the house except to go to work. On occasion, his wife 'allowed,' him to go out for coffee. This guy wasn't a drinker or looking to have an affair. He just wanted to pursue some of his passions for adult conversation with like minded people.
If he had read even one book about Codependency, things might have changed for the better for both of them.


You are absolutely right that partners need to be able to pursue extra-curricular activities outside the home without a prison guard giving them a day pass.
And that also requires the (willing) prisoner to get a backbone and work for their freedom! Without therapy, I'd still be a helpless, frightened little doormat!


Can you imagine if a woman was oppressed like this by a man. There would be Hell to pay and a ton of social censure. And yet, I find so many women happily do this to men, because the social politics are all on their side now.
It's on their side because the oppressed one is not willing to stand up for their own dignity so it's a form of unhealthy codependency where both of them are getting what they want but in very destructive ways. :idea:

[jimrich]

Elfemya,

The whole "cheating" issue is so fraught with illusion, too. If one partner is withholding emotionally, physically, etc...making intimacy impossible, can the other partner be seriously labelled a "cheat" if they end up stepping out on them?
This is kind of the perfect description of unhealthy codependency: One partner withholds (taking control) forcing the other partner to get their "needs" met ELSEWHERE! :ROFL:

[AutumnW]

Because I have a chronic illness, I miss out on a lot. But I have structured my life so that I derive as much meaning and pleasure as I can in singular and necessarily lethargic pursuits. I encourage my partner to structure his life in a way that he doesn't feel trapped. Sometimes I am a little lonely but it is bearable and it beats the kind of lives many have, healthy or not.

It is confusing to me that anybody would willingly compromise the capacity for joy and a sense of freedom anybody has, particularly their own mate's.

I totally get that and 6pounder's sentiments about that. And I don't judge 'cheating.' I take issue with those who play mind games with their spouses about open relationships though. Those who convince a partner that it will be good for them as well, are not being honest. From what I have witnessed, it is not good for women, runs counter to their basic biology and if they accept it, indicates a power imbalance in a relationship where THEY are the door mat.

[AutumnW]

Jimrich,

My brother recently left his wife. He endured years of Hell because he was willing to bend but wouldn't be broken by his insanely selfish wife. Her modus operandi was to invade his space, non stop, tell him he was wrong about everything, talk ceaselessly about herself. When he complained, she told him HE had a mental problem because of his childhood. She argued incessantly with EVERYBODY.

This woman not only caused a nightmare for him, she caused tremendous stress in our family. I am so glad he said goodbye to crazy. The oppression has lifted.

[jimrich]

Because I have a chronic illness, I miss out on a lot. But I have structured my life so that I derive as much meaning and pleasure as I can in singular and necessarily lethargic pursuits. I encourage my partner to structure his life in a way that he doesn't feel trapped. Sometimes I am a little lonely but it is bearable and it beats the kind of lives many have, healthy or not.

It is confusing to me that anybody would willingly compromise the capacity for joy and a sense of freedom anybody has, particularly their own mate's.

I totally get that and 6pounder's sentiments about that. And I don't judge 'cheating.' I take issue with those who play mind games with their spouses about open relationships though. Those who convince a partner that it will be good for them as well, are not being honest. From what I have witnessed, it is not good for women, runs counter to their basic biology and if they accept it, indicates a power imbalance in a relationship where THEY are the door mat.
Towards the sad end of my wife's life, she suffered with a lot of debilitating and limiting physical conditions which put me in a nearly 100% caretaker position but I never felt "trapped" and would not have gone off to have my fun while she sat at home all alone. It was a little stressful for both of us but never ruined the love and respect we had for each other so, I am not sure how much more of that we could have endured and I'm pretty sure my late wife wanted to "go" and welcomed the opportunity to go to the other side while at the hospital for the last time. She is always right here and comes to be with or visit me all the time so I have not actually "lost" her other than as a physical form in this world. I miss her a lot but feel and "hear" her most of the time so it's not as painful as if she were totally gone and dead - which she isn't. :flower:

[jimrich]

Jimrich,

My brother recently left his wife. He endured years of Hell because he was willing to bend but wouldn't be broken by his insanely selfish wife.
I don't know what inspired your brother to leave but, it seems so weird that, after one Codependent discovers their rights and dignity and leaves the relationship, the other (insane) Codependent just goes on being just as sick as they ever were! It's called Denial and is the strangest and most destructive element in most folk's lives. Denial kept me in my 1st, unhappy marriage until therapy broke through my Denial after-which I had to leave her. I am sure that she believes I was the sick one - not her! We were BOTH sick but then I found a way out of my sickness!


The oppression has lifted.
:)

[AutumnW]

Jimrich, I think that is amazing and I wouldn't be with a man who isn't self sacrificing, in the way you describe. But I am not dying. This illness is going to go on and on and on and it destroys my energy. The best I can do for myself and others is to let them live their lives while I live a constrained but not unhappy life. (At least, not usually)

People who are chronically ill can become neurotic emperors and empresses if they don't keep perspective on the needs of others. You simply can't have someone sitting at your bedside, essentially, for decade after decade.

[AutumnW]

Jimrich,

My brother recently left his wife. He endured years of Hell because he was willing to bend but wouldn't be broken by his insanely selfish wife.
I don't know what inspired your brother to leave but, it seems so weird that, after one Codependent discovers their rights and dignity and leaves the relationship, the other (insane) Codependent just goes on being just as sick as they ever were! It's called Denial and is the strangest and most destructive element in most folk's lives. Denial kept me in my 1st, unhappy marriage until therapy broke through my Denial after-which I had to leave her. I am sure that she believes I was the sick one - not her! We were BOTH sick but then I found a way out of my sickness!


The oppression has lifted.
:)

Your pattern is similar to my brother's. And his former wife is not moving on with her life. It is still all about how he let her down. She has created a narrative where she is this poor thing who was deserted. She has a personality disorder and they are resistant to change.

[AutumnW]

Jimrich, I am so sorry for your loss. Your wife sounds like a wonderful person. You both seem to have brought out the best in one another and self sacrifice is not a sacrifice at all, when there is deep love and deep real need. I am sure she is with you!

[ElfeMya]

Jimrich,

My brother recently left his wife. He endured years of Hell because he was willing to bend but wouldn't be broken by his insanely selfish wife. Her modus operandi was to invade his space, non stop, tell him he was wrong about everything, talk ceaselessly about herself. When he complained, she told him HE had a mental problem because of his childhood. She argued incessantly with EVERYBODY.

This woman not only caused a nightmare for him, she caused tremendous stress in our family. I am so glad he said goodbye to crazy. The oppression has lifted.

This sounds like a narcissist... or a real personality disorder... in that lady. Just thinking...

[jimrich]

I am sure she is with you!
She is! Those in the afterlife can be wherever they wish at any time so she comes around quite often. I could fill many pages with the wonderful and amazing ways that Irene "pops in" to tell me something, show me a picture or just give me a hint or reminder when I need it.
OK, here's one.
While walking past See's Candies, she mentioned some special chocolate that we sometimes bought BEFORE she was diagnoses as Diabetic. I said "ok" and headed back to See's but couldn't remember the name of that chocolate item. I asked her to help me remember and, as I was going down the escalator in Macy's and back to See's, Irene very subtly planted the word = "Bordeaux" in my mind! If I didn't know better, I could have thought it was only my memory in action, BUT IT WASN'T!
I just laughed my butt off all the way bad to See's because that was indeed the very item that she liked so much! I bought the Bordeaux, got a coffee (also her favorite drink) and sat down in the mall to SLOWLY enjoying OUR Bordeaux together. SHE JUST LOVED IT! :heart:

[greybeard]

When Ramana Maharshi was dying his devotees were concerned that they would loose him. He said "Where would I go?"
Non location---we are not where we think we are at all.
We do not come and we do not go (Nasargadatta quote)

A songs says "You are every where and no where baby thats where you are at" Jeff Beck sang If I remember correctly
There is more in heaven and earth etc. cant remember the rest of the quote.

Many miraculous things happen.

Happy for you jimrich.
Chris

[jimrich]

This woman not only caused a nightmare for him, she caused tremendous stress in our family. I am so glad he said goodbye to crazy. The oppression has lifted.

This sounds like a narcissist... or a real personality disorder... in that lady. Just thinking...
The problem with labels like:narcisst, personality disorder, egotistical, etc. is that they do not explain WHY a person acts the way they do - especially dysfunctional persons like "that lady", who caused "nightmares".

If someone has the courage or brains to look deeply into a disturbed person's life, they might find all kinds of "reasons and causes" for why the disturbed person acts so selfish and causes nightmares.
In looking deeply into my past, I can find a lot of early traumas and parental abuses that will perfectly explain my weird behavior many years later. It's called CONDITIONING or PROGRAMMING and most folks carry around a lot of unhealthy, dysfunctional conditioning that society labels as NORMAL.
If I could examine that trouble-making woman's past, I am sure I could explain why she is now a selfish, defensive narcissist with personality disorders and maybe even offer her a solution to her "problems".
Every one of us has a past which might be healthy or unhealthy but very few of us can or will remember our past and fewer still will ever do anything to FIX the emotional damages that may have occurred back then.
Two women in my late wife's family were RAPED as young girls and now, I at least, can see that the one girl's DRINKING is all about dealing with her painful past that was NEVER faced nor dealt with so she lives with deep, inner pain and SHAME and the other girl's "bout" with throat CANCER (plus drinking) was the dire result of her childhood TRAUMA that was never faced or dealt with so she has carried extreme shame and bad feelings ever since which finally came out for her as CANCER of the throat!!!
These two women could easily be labeled as narcissists, drunks, ignorant, lazy, stupid, trouble-makers, carrying "personality disorders", etc. when the simple truth is that BOTH of them, my late wife and a few others in the family were and still are VICTIMS of early childhood trauma that was NEVER dealt with!
I have worked my butt off, in therapy, trying to deal with my early traumas and lousy parental conditioning so I sort of know why and how unhealed, inner wounds work and I can see it in almost everyone around me. Most of our culture suffers and struggles with early trauma that has somehow been forgotten or Denied BUT those early wounds continue to affect folks their whole life UNLESS they stop and go to work FIXING them self.
Old wounds do not have to show up later in life as: Alcoholism, Drug addiction, Depression, Suicide, Selfishness, Self contempt, CANCER (or some other horrifying illnesses - like my late wife had), insanity, school shootings, killer cops, terrorism, dirty politicians, criminals, arsonists, rapists, killers, liars, cheats, road rage, incest, etc., etc.
Old wounds CAN BE FIXED!
And, once fixed, a person is more likely to be less selfish, self destructive, dangerous to others and the victim of out-of-control drinking and CANCER!
It's your life!
Do you want to live it as the victim of early childhood trauma or as a HAPPY, Shame-free person?
...... toss a coin! :idea:

[AutumnW]

Jimrich,

I agree with you where most difficult people are concerned. If I understand you properly you are saying, rightly so, that most awful behavior is reactive -- a result of childhood trauma. I propose a different theory for a subset of people who DO NOT fit that category.

Some people are born with a very strong tendency towards aggression. In men it will manifest in highly competitive behavior narrow focus and self centeredness. It will manifest in women in a similar way, sometimes more covertly, but other times--not so much.

Call it what you will, label it if you will. It doesn't matter. What matters is with this subset of humanity, we are dealing with more of an innate problem with hardwiring.

It is almost impossible for an aggression (not fear based) individual to change without tremendous effort. As Western society rewards ambition, competition and "going for what you want" it is not completely mal-adaptive, either. Many are rewarded financially for always having their eye on the prize, and having to win, no matter who they have to step on, on the way up.

My former sister in law talked, non stop, about every facet and aspect of her life. She had two very loving parents and zero trauma in her childhood. Trust me when I say, everybody would know about it, if she did. She isn't a victim quietly suffering beneath a veneer of loud mouth ego. She IS that ego. That IS her real self.

[Sueanne47]

Hi Jimrich,

A narcissist cannot be fixed. Its the victims of their abuse that needs fixing!! they have no remorse, no feeling, they are grandiose, its always someone else that is to blame, they feel they do no wrong.

This dear man in this video is the only person that has healed me from years of hurt I've had to put up with from my eldest brother.

His mother was a cruel narcissist...and you can feel his pain by listening to him.

Not a lot of people can understand how a victim of a narcissist feels, but this man knows every single trait of the abuser..at last there is someone out there who understands:

o4hducOmjz0

[jimrich]

Jimrich,

I agree with you where most difficult people are concerned. If I understand you properly you are saying, rightly so, that most awful behavior is reactive -- a result of childhood trauma. I propose a different theory for a subset of people who DO NOT fit that category.

Some people are born with a very strong tendency towards aggression.
My 1 yr older brother was "born" like that and then very dysfunctional parenting EXACERBATED his character so, by the time I was born, he had become an abusive, self centered little monster thanks to very inadequate parenting! In other words, bad parenting made his natural tendencies WORSE! If he had been given normal, loving and KIND parenting, I believe he would have been a much less abusive, punitive and selfish child and adult late on. IMO, bad parenting was his problem (as was mine) and not just genetics or hard-wiring.


In men it will manifest in highly competitive behavior narrow focus and self centeredness. It will manifest in women in a similar way, sometimes more covertly, but other times--not so much.
And then inadequate parental programming and role modeling, by similarly damaged parents, will make them even worse whereas healthy, normal parenting CAN MAYBE make them better or at least OK!


Call it what you will, label it if you will. It doesn't matter. What matters is with this subset of humanity, we are dealing with more of an innate problem with hardwiring.

In my family, it was mostly bad parenting along with a little "hard-wiring". I am not able to examine or speak about this "hard-wiring" thing but I sure do know about the bad parenting in our family and in many of the families all around me right now. Parenting is the key but most parents WILL NOT acknowledge that and choose to hide behind Denial and Delusion to defend their parenting and all other parents within their special, priveleged Parents Club.


It is almost impossible for an aggression (not fear based) individual to change without tremendous effort.
If they've been told all of their life that they are "normal" and OK, why would such a person even need to "change"? My parents never saw a need to change anything about them selves! It's only possible where a person REALIZES that something is wrong inside of them and then it may also take tremendous effort to change their behavior/beliefs, etc. Towards the end of her life, my divorced mom changed for the better but her ex. husband NEVER DID!


As Western society rewards ambition, competition and "going for what you want" it is not completely mal-adaptive, either. Many are rewarded financially for always having their eye on the prize, and having to win, no matter who they have to step on, on the way up.

Psychologists have long known that Western society and many other societies, East and West, are extremely DYSFUNCTIONAL but who pays any attention to "shrinks"? Our very inadequate parents held those "winner takes all" beliefs and I saw a lot of dishonesty, lying, cheating, dirty tricks, etc. going on in my dysfunctional family.


My former sister in law talked, non stop, about every facet and aspect of her life. She had two very loving parents and zero trauma in her childhood. Trust me when I say, everybody would know about it, if she did.
LOL, let me examine her childhood and parenting & I'll tell you why she is the way she is. The tendency to say so and so had loving parents and suffered zero trauma simply falls apart when certain truths are revealed.
I just learned that there are two women in my late wife's family who were RAPED when young and NOTHING was ever done to help them or nail the perpetrators. Now, many years later, one girl is an alcoholic and the other one, also a "drinker", just survived throat CANCER! All of the other sisters in this family SWEAR that neither of these two girls had a bad childhood and so there is NO excuse for the drinking or the Cancer! I see a LOT of "reasons & excuses" for how things are for those girls now but I'm not in a position to suggest they both get into some kind of "therapy" so they just keep on dealing with a rotten past the best they can - BY DRINKING!


She isn't a victim quietly suffering beneath a veneer of loud mouth ego. She IS that ego. That IS her real self.
That is her DEFENSE system..........
Give me 10 minutes in an honest discussion with her and I'll tell you WHY she behaves that way! TRUST ME!

[jimrich]

Hi Jimrich,
A narcissist cannot be fixed.
At the risk of being banned from this forum for "challenging" another member, I strongly disagree with that opinion.

they have no remorse, no feeling, they are grandiose, its always someone else that is to blame, they feel they do no wrong.
Those are all defenses that this so-called Narcissist has been given or learned in the past most likely from their own parents or some significant other.

This dear man in this video is the only person that has healed me from years of hurt I've had to put up with from my eldest brother.
I didn't watch the entire video but noticed that he wants to accuse the Narcissist of this and that but offers not explanation for the Narcissist's behavior.

His mother was a cruel narcissist...and you can feel his pain by listening to him.
I don't know his mother but I'd guess that she was programmed just like she programmed him and it's a wonder that he is not now a Narcissist himself.

Not a lot of people can understand how a victim of a narcissist feels, but this man knows every single trait..
But does he understand WHY the Narcissist acts that way?
My dad was an abusive, sadistic and frightening Narcissist with a codependent, spineless coward for his wife (our mom) and, after doing a little therapy on my self in my late 40s, my dad's behaviors became both understandable and perhaps even forgivable BASED ON his childhood and very bad parenting.
It only took a few glimpses into my parents pasts to see how and why they did such a bad job of parenting us kids. I never knew much about my grand parent's pasts but I am sure I would see just how and why they were the way they were based on the parenting that they may have received but just examining my own childhood and parenting PLUS having a glimpse into how my late wife and husband parented their rather messed up kids shows me enough to say good or bad parenting is the key to how a society operates and things are not looking very good for America these days with all of those DYSFUNCTIONAL children running the show. It only takes a few glimpses into the family life and childhoods of our "leaders" to see why they are so bad and corrupt!
If my brother and I had gone into Politics, we would have been the most corrupt and dangerous criminals this country has ever seen - thanks to very bad parenting - NOT GENETICS !!!! :beer:

[AutumnW]

Hi Jimrich,

Don't worry. I don't think disagreeing with someone is going to get you banned. You are bringing up so many good points here. It is realllly wrong to condemn people without trying super hard to understand them. I really applaud you for that. You have compassion. But we might be talking apples and oranges here. There are people who are highly aggressive and come from fairly good homes, where the parents love them. They show callous unemotional traits in infancy. D they deserve compassion. Yes. They can't help themselves! But if you don't distance yourself, you will be damaged by the experience.

I've studied this issue for a long long time. I came to the conclusion that as weird and angry as my father was he was just that -- a weird angry guy and he was that way for a reason. He was stifled, emotionally incomplete and confused. He could also be kind and he wasn't ambitious, competitive, deceitful or devious. And my mother was an affable but ignorant spouse,like many of her generation.

I think long and hard about labelling anyone. Most people who come up against a severe personality disorder are completely confused by them, initially, because they LIKE the way they are. It works for them -- and if it hurts others, they will rationalize their behavior away, by deflecting blame, or, like a psychopath or malignant narcissist, simply not care at all.

You have very likely experienced people interpersonally, who are just as you describe. When you come up against a true character disordered individual, where the problems are almost purely hardwiring, you will know it. And not to say that the walking wounded can't be just as terrible. It is just coming from a different place.

[Sueanne47]

a codependent, spineless coward for his wife (our mom) a bit cruel that, Jimrich?

[jimrich]

Hi Jimrich,

Don't worry. I don't think disagreeing with someone is going to get you banned.
If I accidentally disagree with a forum "Pet", I can be and have been banned INSTANTLY! It takes a while to see who all the Pets are at a forum so I may have already "stepped in it" at this forum.


You are bringing up so many good points here. It is realllly wrong to condemn people without trying super hard to understand them. I really applaud you for that. You have compassion. But we might be talking apples and oranges here. There are people who are highly aggressive and come from fairly good homes, where the parents love them.
I am not a professional shrink with years and years of training and experience but, based on my own family, I find it very hard to believe that good, loving parents end up with a mentally sick person. If this is about genetics or some infection, disease or natural thing, I can see how these "good" parents might be burdened by a damaged child. Maybe I need to study psychology a little more!


They show callous unemotional traits in infancy.
OK, that might be about Autism which I currently know nothing about. One of our relatives had a problem birth so he is somewhat mentally "wacky" but we also can see how he has NOT had adequate parenting!


I think long and hard about labelling anyone. Most people who come up against a severe personality disorder are completely confused by them, initially, because they LIKE the way they are. It works for them -- and if it hurts others, they will rationalize their behavior away, by deflecting blame, or, like a psychopath or malignant narcissist, simply not care at all.
Much of that seems like learned or acquired defenses to me. My dad was a lot like that and I suppose I could say that he had some natural "disorder" (as us kids may have had) BUT, much of what he said and did seemed deliberate and planned to me so I find it hard to see him as a person with some "disorder". The few things I know about his past (they did not share their private lives with me) tells me that he was simply emotionally damaged by his own damaged parents.
Maybe this is about multi-generational DISORDERS!


You have very likely experienced people interpersonally, who are just as you describe. When you come up against a true character disordered individual, where the problems are almost purely hardwiring, you will know it. And not to say that the walking wounded can't be just as terrible. It is just coming from a different place.
Now that I think about it, I believe I have encountered folks who may have had dysfunctional "hard-wiring" and I am so gullible that I thought they were either normal or special! I believe I knew kids like that in school who were definitely "damaged" but never thought about why.
Dang, there's a possibility that my brother and I also carry personality disorders like Aspergers, OCD, ADHD, etc.
It makes my skin crawl just to think of it!!!
My late wife sometimes said, in a loving way, that I might have OCD!!!!
And I can often get really STUCK on a subject or activity like Porn!!!
OMG!!!! :raining:

[halcyon026]

“The most important aspect of love is not in giving or the receiving: it's in the being. When I need love from others, or need to give love to others, I'm caught in an unstable situation. Being in love, rather than giving or taking love, is the only thing that provides stability. Being in love means seeing the Beloved all around me.” - Ram Dass

[ElfeMya]

This woman not only caused a nightmare for him, she caused tremendous stress in our family. I am so glad he said goodbye to crazy. The oppression has lifted.

This sounds like a narcissist... or a real personality disorder... in that lady. Just thinking...
The problem with labels like:narcisst, personality disorder, egotistical, etc. is that they do not explain WHY a person acts the way they do - especially dysfunctional persons like "that lady", who caused "nightmares".

If someone has the courage or brains to look deeply into a disturbed person's life, they might find all kinds of "reasons and causes" for why the disturbed person acts so selfish and causes nightmares.
In looking deeply into my past, I can find a lot of early traumas and parental abuses that will perfectly explain my weird behavior many years later. It's called CONDITIONING or PROGRAMMING and most folks carry around a lot of unhealthy, dysfunctional conditioning that society labels as NORMAL.
If I could examine that trouble-making woman's past, I am sure I could explain why she is now a selfish, defensive narcissist with personality disorders and maybe even offer her a solution to her "problems".
Every one of us has a past which might be healthy or unhealthy but very few of us can or will remember our past and fewer still will ever do anything to FIX the emotional damages that may have occurred back then.
Two women in my late wife's family were RAPED as young girls and now, I at least, can see that the one girl's DRINKING is all about dealing with her painful past that was NEVER faced nor dealt with so she lives with deep, inner pain and SHAME and the other girl's "bout" with throat CANCER (plus drinking) was the dire result of her childhood TRAUMA that was never faced or dealt with so she has carried extreme shame and bad feelings ever since which finally came out for her as CANCER of the throat!!!
These two women could easily be labeled as narcissists, drunks, ignorant, lazy, stupid, trouble-makers, carrying "personality disorders", etc. when the simple truth is that BOTH of them, my late wife and a few others in the family were and still are VICTIMS of early childhood trauma that was NEVER dealt with!
I have worked my butt off, in therapy, trying to deal with my early traumas and lousy parental conditioning so I sort of know why and how unhealed, inner wounds work and I can see it in almost everyone around me. Most of our culture suffers and struggles with early trauma that has somehow been forgotten or Denied BUT those early wounds continue to affect folks their whole life UNLESS they stop and go to work FIXING them self.
Old wounds do not have to show up later in life as: Alcoholism, Drug addiction, Depression, Suicide, Selfishness, Self contempt, CANCER (or some other horrifying illnesses - like my late wife had), insanity, school shootings, killer cops, terrorism, dirty politicians, criminals, arsonists, rapists, killers, liars, cheats, road rage, incest, etc., etc.
Old wounds CAN BE FIXED!
And, once fixed, a person is more likely to be less selfish, self destructive, dangerous to others and the victim of out-of-control drinking and CANCER!
It's your life!
Do you want to live it as the victim of early childhood trauma or as a HAPPY, Shame-free person?
...... toss a coin! :idea:
Hey Jim, I totally disagree with you on narcissist and pesonality disorder. I find it great that you can change a narcissist or find waht is behind their behavior and I agree with other memebers about the fact that some have a brain that is different and therefore not providing the same ability for empathy or noticing other people's feelings for examples.
As far as healing narcissists and chaning them is concerned, though I researched this a lot I have only found one protocol that is out there and actually providing a real help, at the same time for the disordered one and the entourage and there is only one narc that I know of that ever changed their ways.

I think your had such a journey, that is impressive and I praise you for the amzing work you did on yourself, you are showing that emptions and feelings are not a plague that needs to be eradicated. That alone for me, deserve to be in the spot light and spread around to help all of us feel better in our own skins.

Hugs to you.

[jimrich]

a codependent, spineless coward for his wife (our mom) a bit cruel that, Jimrich?


A bit HONEST! :flower:

[jimrich]

This woman not only caused a nightmare for him, she caused tremendous stress in our family. I am so glad he said goodbye to crazy. The oppression has lifted.This sounds like a narcissist... or a real personality disorder... in that lady. Just thinking...
Poor thing! I guess, when someone like that lady has a "disorder", they just CAN'T HELP how they behave so all the "normal" folks need to take their "disorders" and "hard-wiring" into consideration and learn to live with it! Looks like everyone is hopelessly stuck when a "disorder" such as Narcissism is present and the Narc. just can't help being what they are!
Oh well..........
I am not a parent but, if only I had known about these disorders when I was a sad and frightened child, I could have happily overlooked my parent's behaviors and even us (disordered) kids behaviors (I wet the bed for about 4 years STRAIGHT). It would have made life much easier to see my parents as the sorry victims of "disorders" and not two careless and ignorant adults terrorizing their kids. When dad was savagely belting my brother, I should have over looked that and felt sorry for my poor, afflicted dad instead of becoming frozen in terror that I'd be beaten next.

Poor dad and mom!
I was a very unappreciative son who just didn't get it that my stressed parents were doing the very best they could with what they knew - despite their "disorders" - while I was such a BRAT!
Well, thanks to all of you, I now understand that my poor parents were NEVER to blame for their (sometimes) unhealthy beliefs and behaviors and that it was all about DISORDERS - in them & also in us kids.
Thanks for helping me see the light.
I will say no more about my poor, sorry parent's behaviors caused by disorders and not by their own STUPIDITY & CARELESSNESS! They just did the best they could (and so did us kids).
I was in a Recovery program called ACOA and we were known as "Parent Bashers" because we DARED tell the truth about our parents. In Recovery, they tell you right up front, that you have to stay with Rigorous Honesty so it took me a while to get the courage to tell the truth about my parents and our family but I finally broke down and began speaking the truth.
Since I am not a parent, I never had the moral or social obligation to defend and excuse my parents NO MATTER WHAT, so I was and still am free to speak the truth about my parents and other parents as well while most parents I've ever encountered HAVE TO either hide the truth or at least modify it to make ALL parents "perfect little Saints" who NEVER make any mistakes and if they have some "slight" fault, there is a perfectly good reason for it. Of course these excuses do not extend to the rotten children who have made life so miserable for these burdened parents.
This pattern of excusing and shielding parents is absolutely consistent in most cultures so anyone telling the truth about parents is in serious trouble from the Parents Club!
Freud almost lost his career when he dared to tell the world that his sick clients were mentally ill because they were the victims of SEVERE ABUSE by their parents. The public was outraged that anyone would dare suggest that, what was considered correct and necessary child rearing practices in Germany and Austria, could in any way damage anyone, least of all a child, who NEEDS a strict upbringing! So Freud got busy and created a few utterly idiotic theories to shift the blame for his clients mental struggles from their parents and onto the nasty, little brats who deserved the correct and adequate parenting that they were getting! Anyone who dared disagree with Freud was severely censured by both Freud and the parents of that day!
I can see that Freud would have welcomed the modern concepts of disorders since he could have easily gotten off the hook by just BLAMING all of his clients problems on their personality disorders and been done with it. That would have made all the angry parents very happy to know that they were the victims of their own kid's disorders.
How convenient!
I'm sure glad I now know about disorders and will study this some more to take my parents and all other parents off the hook of personal responsibility and BLAME!
Thanks everyone.............:ROFL:

[Iloveyou]

Well, that had to be said, for sure. It's a truth, though not the only one. It had to be said to give the children (that you and your brother were) a voice. If you are talking as an advocate on the behalf of the kid you were, it's not a bad thing.

Greetings from the town of Sigmund Freud.

( . . but I'm just starting to read the thread from back to front.)

[greybeard]

Like many in AA there was a whole catalog of events that I went into meetings with--I was hurt and damaged.
However, after emotionally relating during a meeting, yet again, the chair person said "Are the people that hurt you so badly in this room --I said no.
The Chair said "Then who is hurting you here and now in this moment" I got it, I was hurting me.

Thereafter the memories and pain came but I remember the wise chairperson words and bit by bit the hurt receded --the memories lost their emotional charge, they came back less frequently, till they almost never return and if the do they are just memories.

Recovery is not an easy road.

Chris

[ElfeMya]

This woman not only caused a nightmare for him, she caused tremendous stress in our family. I am so glad he said goodbye to crazy. The oppression has lifted.This sounds like a narcissist... or a real personality disorder... in that lady. Just thinking...
Poor thing! I guess, when someone like that lady has a "disorder", they just CAN'T HELP how they behave so all the "normal" folks need to take their "disorders" and "hard-wiring" into consideration and learn to live with it! Looks like everyone is hopelessly stuck when a "disorder" such as Narcissism is present and the Narc. just can't help being what they are!
Oh well..........
I am not a parent but, if only I had known about these disorders when I was a sad and frightened child, I could have happily overlooked my parent's behaviors and even us (disordered) kids behaviors (I wet the bed for about 4 years STRAIGHT). It would have made life much easier to see my parents as the sorry victims of "disorders" and not two careless and ignorant adults terrorizing their kids. When dad was savagely belting my brother, I should have over looked that and felt sorry for my poor, afflicted dad instead of becoming frozen in terror that I'd be beaten next.

Poor dad and mom!
I was a very unappreciative son who just didn't get it that my stressed parents were doing the very best they could with what they knew - despite their "disorders" - while I was such a BRAT!
Well, thanks to all of you, I now understand that my poor parents were NEVER to blame for their (sometimes) unhealthy beliefs and behaviors and that it was all about DISORDERS - in them & also in us kids.
Thanks for helping me see the light.
I will say no more about my poor, sorry parent's behaviors caused by disorders and not by their own STUPIDITY & CARELESSNESS! They just did the best they could (and so did us kids).
I was in a Recovery program called ACOA and we were known as "Parent Bashers" because we DARED tell the truth about our parents. In Recovery, they tell you right up front, that you have to stay with Rigorous Honesty so it took me a while to get the courage to tell the truth about my parents and our family but I finally broke down and began speaking the truth.
Since I am not a parent, I never had the moral or social obligation to defend and excuse my parents NO MATTER WHAT, so I was and still am free to speak the truth about my parents and other parents as well while most parents I've ever encountered HAVE TO either hide the truth or at least modify it to make ALL parents "perfect little Saints" who NEVER make any mistakes and if they have some "slight" fault, there is a perfectly good reason for it. Of course these excuses do not extend to the rotten children who have made life so miserable for these burdened parents.
This pattern of excusing and shielding parents is absolutely consistent in most cultures so anyone telling the truth about parents is in serious trouble from the Parents Club!
Freud almost lost his career when he dared to tell the world that his sick clients were mentally ill because they were the victims of SEVERE ABUSE by their parents. The public was outraged that anyone would dare suggest that, what was considered correct and necessary child rearing practices in Germany and Austria, could in any way damage anyone, least of all a child, who NEEDS a strict upbringing! So Freud got busy and created a few utterly idiotic theories to shift the blame for his clients mental struggles from their parents and onto the nasty, little brats who deserved the correct and adequate parenting that they were getting! Anyone who dared disagree with Freud was severely censured by both Freud and the parents of that day!
I can see that Freud would have welcomed the modern concepts of disorders since he could have easily gotten off the hook by just BLAMING all of his clients problems on their personality disorders and been done with it. That would have made all the angry parents very happy to know that they were the victims of their own kid's disorders.
How convenient!
I'm sure glad I now know about disorders and will study this some more to take my parents and all other parents off the hook of personal responsibility and BLAME!
Thanks everyone.............:ROFL:

I m sorry you went through so much. Really am.
At the same time I never said or write anything about your parents or your situation with them.
This needs to be clear.

Hugs to all.

[AutumnW]

This woman not only caused a nightmare for him, she caused tremendous stress in our family. I am so glad he said goodbye to crazy. The oppression has lifted.This sounds like a narcissist... or a real personality disorder... in that lady. Just thinking...
Poor thing! I guess, when someone like that lady has a "disorder", they just CAN'T HELP how they behave so all the "normal" folks need to take their "disorders" and "hard-wiring" into consideration and learn to live with it! Looks like everyone is hopelessly stuck when a "disorder" such as Narcissism is present and the Narc. just can't help being what they are!
Oh well..........
I am not a parent but, if only I had known about these disorders when I was a sad and frightened child, I could have happily overlooked my parent's behaviors and even us (disordered) kids behaviors (I wet the bed for about 4 years STRAIGHT). It would have made life much easier to see my parents as the sorry victims of "disorders" and not two careless and ignorant adults terrorizing their kids. When dad was savagely belting my brother, I should have over looked that and felt sorry for my poor, afflicted dad instead of becoming frozen in terror that I'd be beaten next.

Poor dad and mom!
I was a very unappreciative son who just didn't get it that my stressed parents were doing the very best they could with what they knew - despite their "disorders" - while I was such a BRAT!
Well, thanks to all of you, I now understand that my poor parents were NEVER to blame for their (sometimes) unhealthy beliefs and behaviors and that it was all about DISORDERS - in them & also in us kids.
Thanks for helping me see the light.
I will say no more about my poor, sorry parent's behaviors caused by disorders and not by their own STUPIDITY & CARELESSNESS! They just did the best they could (and so did us kids).
I was in a Recovery program called ACOA and we were known as "Parent Bashers" because we DARED tell the truth about our parents. In Recovery, they tell you right up front, that you have to stay with Rigorous Honesty so it took me a while to get the courage to tell the truth about my parents and our family but I finally broke down and began speaking the truth.
Since I am not a parent, I never had the moral or social obligation to defend and excuse my parents NO MATTER WHAT, so I was and still am free to speak the truth about my parents and other parents as well while most parents I've ever encountered HAVE TO either hide the truth or at least modify it to make ALL parents "perfect little Saints" who NEVER make any mistakes and if they have some "slight" fault, there is a perfectly good reason for it. Of course these excuses do not extend to the rotten children who have made life so miserable for these burdened parents.
This pattern of excusing and shielding parents is absolutely consistent in most cultures so anyone telling the truth about parents is in serious trouble from the Parents Club!
Freud almost lost his career when he dared to tell the world that his sick clients were mentally ill because they were the victims of SEVERE ABUSE by their parents. The public was outraged that anyone would dare suggest that, what was considered correct and necessary child rearing practices in Germany and Austria, could in any way damage anyone, least of all a child, who NEEDS a strict upbringing! So Freud got busy and created a few utterly idiotic theories to shift the blame for his clients mental struggles from their parents and onto the nasty, little brats who deserved the correct and adequate parenting that they were getting! Anyone who dared disagree with Freud was severely censured by both Freud and the parents of that day!
I can see that Freud would have welcomed the modern concepts of disorders since he could have easily gotten off the hook by just BLAMING all of his clients problems on their personality disorders and been done with it. That would have made all the angry parents very happy to know that they were the victims of their own kid's disorders.
How convenient!
I'm sure glad I now know about disorders and will study this some more to take my parents and all other parents off the hook of personal responsibility and BLAME!
Thanks everyone.............:ROFL:

I can't respond to everything you have written here just something you may have overlooked. People with innate tendencies towards aggression can change their behavior, if THEY choose. But the pain they cause others, in and of itself, will not get them to change. They rationalize it away or don't care. At best it is on their list of priorities, but at the very bottom. They are not motivated by empathy, feeling others pain, or remorse and grief for the pain they have caused others.

This does not mean that those close to them should tip toe around them and make allowances for their 'disorder.' What it means is those who are close to them must realize the futility involved in trying to change the disordered person by appealing to their sense of remorse or empathy

. Genuine and deep compassion is lacking in their personality. This is why it is classed as a character or personality 'disorder.' Normal neurotic people will have at least a little of this in their personalities and therapists can work with them, because they are dealing with damaged people, not people who, for all intents and purposes, are almost alien.

Most intelligent therapists will advise those targeted, victimized by this type to go, 'no contact,' if this is possible. That means never seeing them or speaking to them again, EVER! even if they are family members. And they are cautioned to do this to protect themselves.

[AutumnW]

Like many in AA there was a whole catalog of events that I went into meetings with--I was hurt and damaged.
However, after emotionally relating during a meeting, yet again, the chair person said "Are the people that hurt you so badly in this room --I said no.
The Chair said "Then who is hurting you here and now in this moment" I got it, I was hurting me.

Thereafter the memories and pain came but I remember the wise chairperson words and bit by bit the hurt receded --the memories lost their emotional charge, they came back less frequently, till they almost never return and if the do they are just memories.

Recovery is not an easy road.

Chris

Your story is an inspiration, Greybeard. I hope to be as kind and gentle as you, one day. You have been through so much. :Angel:

[AutumnW]

Jimrich,

My brother recently left his wife. He endured years of Hell because he was willing to bend but wouldn't be broken by his insanely selfish wife. Her modus operandi was to invade his space, non stop, tell him he was wrong about everything, talk ceaselessly about herself. When he complained, she told him HE had a mental problem because of his childhood. She argued incessantly with EVERYBODY.

This woman not only caused a nightmare for him, she caused tremendous stress in our family. I am so glad he said goodbye to crazy. The oppression has lifted.

This sounds like a narcissist... or a real personality disorder... in that lady. Just thinking...

Elfe mya,

A textbook cluster B, for sure, but not a narcissist. She has some sweet things about her, in spite of how I have described her. She has some empathy, can be thoughtful in small ways, at times. She is not devious deceitful or arrogant. By oh boy, the other stuff is so obnoxious and the traits are so fixed and not amenable to change. She is high functioning but so irrational, when it comes to ego and goal related fixations, she might as well be insane.

[AutumnW]

This woman not only caused a nightmare for him, she caused tremendous stress in our family. I am so glad he said goodbye to crazy. The oppression has lifted.This sounds like a narcissist... or a real personality disorder... in that lady. Just thinking...
Poor thing! I guess, when someone like that lady has a "disorder", they just CAN'T HELP how they behave so all the "normal" folks need to take their "disorders" and "hard-wiring" into consideration and learn to live with it! Looks like everyone is hopelessly stuck when a "disorder" such as Narcissism is present and the Narc. just can't help being what they are!
Oh well..........
I am not a parent but, if only I had known about these disorders when I was a sad and frightened child, I could have happily overlooked my parent's behaviors and even us (disordered) kids behaviors (I wet the bed for about 4 years STRAIGHT). It would have made life much easier to see my parents as the sorry victims of "disorders" and not two careless and ignorant adults terrorizing their kids. When dad was savagely belting my brother, I should have over looked that and felt sorry for my poor, afflicted dad instead of becoming frozen in terror that I'd be beaten next.

Poor dad and mom!
I was a very unappreciative son who just didn't get it that my stressed parents were doing the very best they could with what they knew - despite their "disorders" - while I was such a BRAT!
Well, thanks to all of you, I now understand that my poor parents were NEVER to blame for their (sometimes) unhealthy beliefs and behaviors and that it was all about DISORDERS - in them & also in us kids.
Thanks for helping me see the light.
I will say no more about my poor, sorry parent's behaviors caused by disorders and not by their own STUPIDITY & CARELESSNESS! They just did the best they could (and so did us kids).
I was in a Recovery program called ACOA and we were known as "Parent Bashers" because we DARED tell the truth about our parents. In Recovery, they tell you right up front, that you have to stay with Rigorous Honesty so it took me a while to get the courage to tell the truth about my parents and our family but I finally broke down and began speaking the truth.
Since I am not a parent, I never had the moral or social obligation to defend and excuse my parents NO MATTER WHAT, so I was and still am free to speak the truth about my parents and other parents as well while most parents I've ever encountered HAVE TO either hide the truth or at least modify it to make ALL parents "perfect little Saints" who NEVER make any mistakes and if they have some "slight" fault, there is a perfectly good reason for it. Of course these excuses do not extend to the rotten children who have made life so miserable for these burdened parents.
This pattern of excusing and shielding parents is absolutely consistent in most cultures so anyone telling the truth about parents is in serious trouble from the Parents Club!
Freud almost lost his career when he dared to tell the world that his sick clients were mentally ill because they were the victims of SEVERE ABUSE by their parents. The public was outraged that anyone would dare suggest that, what was considered correct and necessary child rearing practices in Germany and Austria, could in any way damage anyone, least of all a child, who NEEDS a strict upbringing! So Freud got busy and created a few utterly idiotic theories to shift the blame for his clients mental struggles from their parents and onto the nasty, little brats who deserved the correct and adequate parenting that they were getting! Anyone who dared disagree with Freud was severely censured by both Freud and the parents of that day!
I can see that Freud would have welcomed the modern concepts of disorders since he could have easily gotten off the hook by just BLAMING all of his clients problems on their personality disorders and been done with it. That would have made all the angry parents very happy to know that they were the victims of their own kid's disorders.
How convenient!
I'm sure glad I now know about disorders and will study this some more to take my parents and all other parents off the hook of personal responsibility and BLAME!
Thanks everyone.............:ROFL:

I m sorry you went through so much. Really am.
At the same time I never said or write anything about your parents or your situation with them.
This needs to be clear.

Hugs to all.

I am very sorry you went through all of that, too, Jimrich. I was such a little angel, the physical discipline was limited. But when it happened I would nearly black out from pain. Ungood. It changed my brain in fundamental ways. So that kind of treatment on a frequent basis is hard for me to imagine.

Best wishes to you and elfemya.

[ElfeMya]

Jimrich,

My brother recently left his wife. He endured years of Hell because he was willing to bend but wouldn't be broken by his insanely selfish wife. Her modus operandi was to invade his space, non stop, tell him he was wrong about everything, talk ceaselessly about herself. When he complained, she told him HE had a mental problem because of his childhood. She argued incessantly with EVERYBODY.

This woman not only caused a nightmare for him, she caused tremendous stress in our family. I am so glad he said goodbye to crazy. The oppression has lifted.

This sounds like a narcissist... or a real personality disorder... in that lady. Just thinking...

Elfe mya,

A textbook cluster B, for sure, but not a narcissist. She has some sweet things about her, in spite of how I have described her. She has some empathy, can be thoughtful in small ways, at times. She is not devious deceitful or arrogant. By oh boy, the other stuff is so obnoxious and the traits are so fixed and not amenable to change. She is high functioning but so irrational, when it comes to ego and goal related fixations, she might as well be insane.

AutumW, that is so good that there was some goodness on her as well ! Thanks for clarifyng.

[jimrich]

Like many in AA there was a whole catalog of events that I went into meetings with--I was hurt and damaged.
However, after emotionally relating during a meeting, yet again, the chair person said "Are the people that hurt you so badly in this room --I said no.
The Chair said "Then who is hurting you here and now in this moment" I got it, I was hurting me.
I tried a few AA and Al-anon meetings but soon realized that their judgmental, 'get off the pity pot and stop feeling so sorry for your self, stop that WHINING!' attitude and preaching would not help me so I stayed in ACOA, CODA and even Incest Survivors where there was a least a little understanding and EMPATHY for the pain, rage and bottled up feelings I had at that time. At least in ACoA, I could tell the truth about my parents, which infuriated the Al-anons and completely stymied the AA'ers, and not suffer the put downs, unwanted advice or outright CONTEMPT that came from AAs and Al-anons who simply didn't want to hear any whining or negative discussions about "cherished" parents or Precious Parenting from us ACA brats!
We disgusted them!
They just hated our whining, blaming and "Parent Bashing" style but you sure could hear some obvious TRUTHS in those ACA meetings!
You could speak your truths and have your TEARS in those ACA and Incest meetings but don't you DARE shed a tear in any other group of they'd be all over you to shame and force you to stop IT! Only at ACA and Incest were there folks who could TOLERATE the raw and real feelings and tears that all the others AA types were desperately holding in and the AAers just hated the possibility that someone might break down and then trigger their own bottled up feelings and TEARS to finally come to the surface.

The Chair said "Then who is hurting you here and now in this moment" I got it, I was hurting me.
I would have said, "I am not hurting me. (or you - the disturbed Chair), an Ocean of bottled up, repressed old feelings are finally bursting forth to be felt and then released - even if you don't like it!"
Several "AA types" tried to shame, blame and shut me up during my times in Support groups but I finally understood why they just had to shut me up to protect them selves so I went to other groups where my feelings were honored and not hated or FEARED. I would have told the Chair, "Go to hell!" and walked out.

Thereafter the memories and pain came but I remember the wise chairperson words and bit by bit the hurt receded --the memories lost their emotional charge, they came back less frequently, till they almost never return and if the do they are just memories.
Recovery is not an easy road.

I wish my process had been that quick and easy but I had an ocean of bitter, angry, sad and painful feelings/memories to work through so, when my damaged/painful feeling showed up, I could see and feel that they were way more the "just memories", which seems to be the popular way to dismiss feelings while staying safely on one's head. "Oh these are JUST MEMORIES!" so I don't have to feel anything!"
At ACOA, we used to laugh to beat the band at the "heady" way many of the AA style groups rejected their feelings!
ACOA and Incest took feelings pretty seriously so, after doing a LOT of feelings work, I began to experience more and more relief, like draining a Boil, as the bottled up and unhealed feelings from my past began to vent and leave me, as they should have when they first appeared many years ago. As a child, I was not able to let my feelings come out and express towards my very frightening/abusive parents, and others, so I unwittingly held the feelings in until they just wouldn't be kept in buried any longer in my late 40s.
Like you, Chris, my memories/feelings still come up but not nearly as strong or painful as when I first entered Recovery and had to finally heal or release them. When old memory/feelings pop up, I would not dare label them as "just memories" and then stuff them back down or ignore them again as I did years ago. I might shout, scream, pound something, curse, rage or do whatever that feeling wants to do to RELEASE it in the safest way I can and when nobody is around to be threatened or upset with my "out bursts".
I am so very thankful that ACOA and Incest Survivors allowed me to do what those other AA programs would not allow - to have and express my feelings!
I now know why they are resentful or afraid of feelings.
They carry their own bottled up painful feelings and are afraid open expressions of others feelings will FORCE them to face and somehow deal with their own hidden feelings so they just hate it when someone shows: tears, sadness, sorrow (get off the pity-pot!), tenderness, empathy, understanding, patience, acceptance, gentleness, softness, etc. but anger and violence is OK with them!
If that's their method to manage their unhealed feelings, so be it, but at ACoA and Incest, we found that releasing the painful, damaged energy of those feelings did us the most good!

[jimrich]

Most intelligent therapists will advise those targeted, victimized by this type to go, 'no contact,' if this is possible. That means never seeing them or speaking to them again, EVER! even if they are family members. And they are cautioned to do this to protect themselves.
Brilliant! :muscle:

[jimrich]

I was such a little angel, the physical discipline was limited. But when it happened I would nearly black out from pain. Ungood. It changed my brain in fundamental ways.
Pleased explain more about "changed your brain in fundamental ways". What happened and have you gotten over it?

So that kind of treatment on a frequent basis is hard for me to imagine.
Many folks find the Adult Child issues hard to imagine or understand.
It was discovered by ACOAs, that much of society, including the AA types, did not believe that any of them were ever damaged by dysfunctional parenting UNLESS there were: open, visible & bleeding wounds to display so, ACOA had a rough and slow beginning since NOBODY took any of those spoiled, whining Brats seriously.
Then "verbal abuse" and "intellectual abuse" began to be recognized by the "professionals" and soon after came acknowledgment of "emotional abuse" in the form of Fundamentalist Religions such as Mormonism and some of the most horrifying stories of ABUSE came from survivors of Catholic School!, so, folks slowly began to take Adult Children issues seriously and treatments and healing began to appear for this "special" class of abuse VICTIMS.
They went from being "Parent Bashers" to perhaps the most significant and loudest voice in the mental treatment field simply because they were shouting the truth that very few in this or any culture wanted to FACE about parents and Parenting. They weren't Parent Bashers, they were WHISTLE BLOWERS and most folks resent Whistle Blower anywhere. A lot of the ACAs are parents, so it was and still is very difficult and painful to face the disturbing truth about their own dysfunctional parenting. I saw a lot of very deep and intense tears coming from ACA parents who finally broke down and told THE TRUTH about what they had done to their own kids.
IMO, the best thing to ever come out of ACOA and Incest Survivors is the vast array of treatments, solutions (to become your own LOVING parent) & healing that no other groups could or would offer them.
When your parents let you down, for whatever reason, the Solution is to become your own LOVING parent - not helplessly blame the one(s) who hurt you!
I am my own loving parent but it took a while to figure out what a "loving parent" is and does! My best "role model" for such a loving parent was my uncle, Ivar - a very loving/lovable man!
Best wishes to you..........:heart:

[jimrich]

Elfe mya,
A textbook cluster B, for sure, but not a narcissist. She has some sweet things about her, in spite of how I have described her. She has some empathy, can be thoughtful in small ways, at times. She is not devious deceitful or arrogant. By oh boy, the other stuff is so obnoxious and the traits are so fixed and not amenable to change. She is high functioning but so irrational, when it comes to ego and goal related fixations, she might as well be insane.
In therapy, I was taught to look at the WHOLE person, so, although it may not seem like it, my parents and other parents were NOT 100% rotten!
They and other parents may want to proclaim that they "Did the very best they could!" but they are no different or better than me and I DID NOT always do the "best" I could. I, just like them, sometimes did my best and sometimes I did my WORST so, on a scale of percentages, my parents were "sometimes" OK but MOSTLY not OK.
They, just like me and everyone I know, were an interesting mixture of OK and not OK, good/bad, wise/stupid, careful/careless, sober/drunk, angel/devil, evil/righteous, kind/mean, sane/insane, etc. But, from my child's and now adult's perspective, they were ~ worse than good so that is why I speak of them in mostly negative terms because they simply were MORE negative than positive. :flower:

[peggy englebrake]

(I can't figure out how to start a new thread. Help!) in the meantime please see below. Please help save our wild horses and burros. The BLM intends to "dispose" of 80% of them.If that isn't bad enough the animals are being abused by the BLM. Please sign the petition and watch the video if you can stand to do so. Petition: https://www.change.org/p/defund-and-stop-the-wild-horse-burro-roundup
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yF49csCB9qM

[greybeard]

Having gone to AA for years Im not sure that there is an AA type--members are from all walks of life
What they did have in common was that their lives had become unmanageable.

The twelve steps of AA. is a spiritual-program-requiring surrender to a Power greater than my self.

The energy of meetings was measured by the late Dr David Hawkins, a leading psychiatrist and was found to measure at 540 (unconditional love) on his map of consciousness.

http://www.stankovuniversallaw.com/2012/01/the-map-of-consciousness-hawkins-scale/


Not saying that individual members love unconditionally --they dont.

I found a level of acceptance and compassion that I have not experienced else where.
People were not concerned about anything other that getting sobriety and helping others to do the same
I was free to express my feelings and share absolutely anything.
The chair person who got me to see that I was hurting my self did me the biggest favor imaginable--might seem like tough love---it was said in a very helpful way.
I had spent months at meetings repeating the same story and not getting any serenity--no peace of mind.
That changed after that and when I got seriously in to the twelve step program.


Alcoholism kills people--knowing that, arresting the illness becomes a priority, all else is secondary, till a degree of balance comes about.
Having resentments was the number one reason that people left AA drank again and died. (according to AA)

I cant afford to hold resentments but then I am a sober alcoholic.
I am only speaking for myself.

AA has saved and changed lives of millions world wide.

Chris

[jimrich]

I had spent months at meetings repeating the same story and not getting any serenity--no peace of mind.
LOL, I saw that same pattern in many of the meetings that I attended and often wondered why those "Parrots" were stuck at that level because I was determined get out of the sewer and find some healing, so my stories changed all the time as revelations and healing began to occur more and more often.
I now believe the 'stuck Parrots" were using the meetings to get attention (love) and as a social outlet for them.

Alcoholism kills people--knowing that, arresting the illness becomes a priority, all else is secondary, till a degree of balance comes about.
I'd say that Shame, the underlying source of most dysfunction and addictions, is what "kills" most folks - before their time. ACOA and CODA placed more attention on the underlying sources of addiction than the addiction itself so, I stopped drinking (with the help of a Higher Power of course.) the moment my self respect returned by working on my Shame and Self Esteem above all else.

Having resentments was the number one reason that people left AA drank again and died. (according to AA)
I'd say they left AA because the program fails to recognize Shame, the underlying cause of addictions, so they were given few or no tools to confront and reduce the Shame and Self Contempt that made them drink in the first place and they went back to the only remedy they ever knew to feel better. They, like my dad, probably died HAPPY!

I cant afford to hold resentments but then I am a sober alcoholic.
But are you really free of SHAME and Self Contempt?
If not, you'll be either drinking again or become a Shame-based DRY DRUNK, like my late wife's alcoholic husband during his "dry period" when he was impossible to live with! She and the kids liked him better when he drank.
At ACOA and CODA, I learned about the underlying issues surrounding dysfunctional behavior and beliefs (not much about personality disorders, though) and was given a few tools to overcome the infections of family shame, self contempt and FEAR that sent me into Recovery in the first place.
My issue never was Alcohol or Drugs.
My issues always were and still are: Shame, fear and self contempt and now I can see it in nearly everyone around me. Society denies and hides this ugly fact but a few of us get so desperate that we finally go find help - outside of society's spider web of accepted behavior.
When I walk into a restaurant or bar (I play music) I just LAUGH at society's "drinking" solutions for internal discomfort lined up on the wall behind a bar! It's so comical to watch all those hurting people soothing their pain with socially condoned BOOZE!
I am so very glad I finally found a better remedy for my pain with psychology and spirituality before society had a chance to destroy me - before my time! :flower:

[greybeard]

Been sober for forty years jimrich,
I have five children who love me--they bought me a 5 sting bass guitar for my 70th birthday.
I have played in bands since I was fifteen.

Im content -no shame no guilt why would I have?
Guilt shame had nothing to do with my alcoholism--it was hereditary --in the genes--thats been proved.
The first drink I had I was hooked.

Through the Grace of God, through surrendering to His Will, through taking the time to do the Twelve Steps of AA my life turned from suicidal depression to a relatively successful one--not that that matters--what does is that my mind is at peace.

Basically AA works for millions --I haven't gone to a meeting for a long time but its there if I want to go.

Ch

[jimrich]

Been sober for forty years jimrich,


Cool. :cake:

[greybeard]

With respect. A non-alcoholic cant understand the illness.
Unless you have been through delirium tremors, extreme withdrawal symptoms and what it does to your mind, you cant know the hell of alcoholism.
My hell was the worst because it happened to me
Weight dropped from eleven stone to nine stone seven--couldn't keep food down, burst ulcers--and all the rest that goes with the illness.
You can talk about it but thats not the experience of it.
Dr's cant cure it.
I had two close friends--musicians who died of it in their twenties as I was at the time.

So I have every reason to be grateful for each day that I have.

Anyone reading this if they suspect that they might have a drink problem I suggest trying AA
No one will tell you what to do--its all suggestions.
The only reason I post about this subject is to possibly help a struggling alcoholic.
Its a fellowship
Ch

[6pounder]

ill bring us back to subject and will share with you my last experiance.

so i didnt went out for quite long time (about a year and a half) and on this weekend i did and met alot of my female friends and some new people. and i was introducing them to my belief system. and they all liked it and their take on this was that they find it natural and very setisfing to have this kind of freedom BUT, it would be hard to find since im the only male they know is capable of this kind of approach and im alrady in a relationship that doesnt support my way of thinking...

[ElfeMya]

:ROFL: 6pounder... excellent !