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jimrich

21st September 2016, 01:29

Hi Gang:

WARNING: I am not a parent.

In therapy, I came to see some truths about how my brother and I were raised so these "truths" have given me quite a different view or concept of parents and parenting BUT, I've discovered the hard way that these "truths' are not shared by many parents and are quite often RESENTED by most of them.

I would have thought that everyone, including parents, would happily accept these truths and use them to improve their own parenting or parenting in general but I've seen a very serious and stubborn resistance to acknowledging any of these "truths".
I keep calling them "truths" because they challenge and overturn certain socially accepted "truths" about families that are actually LIES! Lies created for and by parents to serve their own interests and help these parents stay comfortably with their LIES while they damage their innocent, unsuspecting children with very inadequate parenting that these parents are convinced is GOOD parenting.

This discovery came to me while examining my own upbringing and parenting under the microscope of ACOA (Adult Children of Alcoholics) theory and revelations and then was expanded by the works of John Bradshaw, Alice Miller and Susan Forward in their ground breaking books about families and parenting (google them).

At first the truths from ACA and these authors didn't register but, since I am not a parent, and have no need to defend my parenting self or other parents in what I call The Parents Club, I was free to see and accept their observations along with my own observations, which held more significance for me than stuff from books and tapes.
I began to understand what happened in our family and in the families of my parents plus what has happened in my sibling's families and my late wife's family with her two rather messed up kids. Alice Miller helped me see what went wrong more than any other author.
I guess I'm opening this thread to get some input and insights into the parenting and family experiences of others who may want to talk about family and parenting stuff that most folk avoid like the plague. It's touchy stuff so, I don't expect others to happily or enthusiastically join in this discussion. All I can say is that, a little truth and HONESTY might help some struggling parent give their kids a better and happier upbringing than I got so, if this thread helps a kid ........GOOD.

In the beginning of my efforts to understand my self and my family, I discovered that we were all ABUSED - not "disciplined or straightened out" - ABUSED, in the name of proper and necessary parenting!
I finally confronted my mom (dad was dead and gone) about why us boys were so severely beaten and she very smugly said, "Well! you both DESERVED IT!"
I was not prepared to respond just then but now I'd tell her that we DESERVED their help and support - not a vengeful, angry BEATING! But beating kids was very popular back then (late 40s) so it was never considered abuse by anyone, least of all the parents! (When I say "beating", I mean BEATING - not merely paddling of the butt, swatting or hand slapping - although that often came with the BEATING!)

So early abuse was the issue that I had long struggled with and that nobody, including my 1st guru, ever recognized.
After I came to see and understand what early abuse does to a person or animal (PTSD), my whole life came into focus and most if not all of my weird and anti-social behaviors suddenly made sense.
I (the ego) could never figure out why I was so different and often stranger than my older brother and younger sister but memories and psychological studies finally explained ALL of it to my current satisfaction.
Although personality disorders and other genetic/natural things may explain my weird and "loner" behaviors, BAD parenting easily explained it all for me. I won't bore you with how bad parenting contributed to my many years of bed wetting, lonely isolation, fear of people, love for animals, fear of women and sex, doormat codependency, anti-socialness, molestation of animals, sadism, OCD and ADHD style behaviors and a huge array of other "dysfunctional" stuff but I can now see how most of that STARTED with BAD parenting more than any other factors and I can also see, with very limited evidence, how and why my parents were set up to be as they were thanks to the BAD parenting they received.
I believe that any shrink or professional, who might be in this forum, can easily demonstrate that my conclusions are all wrong and that my grand parents, parents and us kids and my siblings kids are ALL victims of personality disorders and nature but NOT bad parenting so, come-on, professionals and PROVE me wrong!
As for me, it's all so clear and obvious including these so-called disorders and genetics which may have played a significant part in my parent's and my behaviors so I'm not saying it's ALL bad parenting but NOT nature.
In my family it was most likely a unique mixture of Nature and Nurture so I hope that takes me off the hook of being a FANATIC.
My parents survived ABUSE, their parents survived ABUSE, us kids survived ABUSE and at least my brothers son, an alcoholic, survived ABUSE so maybe ABUSE is not the worst thing that can happen in life. But I am currently very happy to finally be shown that bad parenting and abuse was and maybe still is the main reason my life was so bad into my late 40s.
If its all just a spiritual thing and this is just the cosmic play, I'm OK with that too. What the heck, its been an interesting, if painful, trip so far so maybe I need to stop inspecting parents and parenting and just HAPPILY go with the flow.
I am so very grateful that I never became a (bad) parent who messed up some kid's life, although I may have messed up a few of our pet's lives.
I welcome your comments, opinions and perspectives on parenting - yours or anyone's, but I DON'T WELCOME any personal attacks or insulting put downs just because you resent my opinions on the subject of this thread.
Report it if you are upset and hurt by anything that is written here!
jim :heart:

Sueanne47

21st September 2016, 13:55

Hi Jimrich,

I'm sad that you have been living in fear when you were young...that must have been the most terrible experience. Those memories *will never go away* not ever, that is why souls incarnate into new bodies all the time....until they have learnt from 'school earth' to evolve and finally turn a corner and be kind and loving souls, then the soul can move on to another dimension. My Nan was also beaten with a belt, she was very jealous of anyone being happy in their life, because she was unhappy as a child and thought anyone "dont have the right to smile".

All you can do is come to terms with the experience, but try to not let it consume you, or you will permanently be reliving this nightmare every second of your life. Why should your parents ruin the rest of your time you have left?

I gained strength by listening to Native American teachings, and it calmed my spirit and I love life now so much that I'm not in this 'hurt prison' anymore.

Blessings to you...

Sue

Awakening2014

21st September 2016, 15:25

Sueanne47

21st September 2016, 15:43

I only wish this had been instilled into me when I was younger as it would have been so much easier.

Thank you Awakening2014, My mum said to me when she was alive "I'm not a saint you know" but I do wish my Mum & Dad had compassion enough to see that 'they dont know it all'. Hell, wouldnt that have been great to have lived a childhood full of immense love & kindness? :luv:

My brothers had stronger ego's than I did, so Dad had to keep them in line with a firm hand, but I was of a sensitive nature and didnt like Dad being agressive, and not being able to talk to him about anything. Every time I tried to talk to him he would just say: "dont worry about it" ~ I dont WORRY!!!! I just wanna chat that's all..

Sue

jimrich

21st September 2016, 17:43

Your story touches me deeply. Thank you for sharing your story. I am an adult child of an alcoholic as well. Becoming a parent was one of the biggest motivators for change in myself. I have had a fear throughout most of my life that I would somehow damage any child I had. Learning more about cognition, spirituality, and how a child's mind functions has shown me how we are hurting our youth.
On the very rare occasions where I've found the courage to speak with a (defense, belligerent) parent about their "parenting", I usually tell the parent to recall their own Childhood (most adults don't or won't) to see what you wanted but didn't get from your own parents and what you missed out on due to bad family situations. I stress that I am not talking about poverty or unfortunate illness. Most of them just stare at me as if I've lost my mind!!
I am NOT a parent so, theoretically, I have no right to say anything to any parent BUT I was a child and, as a child, I have vivid memories of what I wanted, didn't want, loved/feared, would have preferred from my very troubled parents and wish I could have done, as a little kid, to HELP my parents and our messed up family so, if I were a parent now, I'd at least try to give my kids the love, respect and HELP that I was not given from my own parents. I can't say that they "knew better" or had acceptable "excuses" for their abusive behaviors (they were also kind and loving from time to time - just NOT enough!) but I definitely knew that my dad was SADISTIC, which I can find no excuse or explanation for other than a "genetic" flaw in him. The mysterious thing is that our apparently "normal" mom NEVER confronted our sick dad about his SADISTIC treatment of his oldest son UNTIL it personally bothered her so, my child's conclusion is that they both KNEW BETTER - but just didn't give a damn!
So, my best and perhaps ONLY recommendation to any parent is to remember what it was like for you as a kid and if things were just fine, raise your kids like you were raised and if things were NOT so fine, look for a better, happier and more loving way to raise you own little prisoners.
Our home was like a Prison Camp being run by 2 very abusive, threatening, mean and TERRIFYING guards! When the two mean guards were away for the night, they left the other even meaner guard on duty - our older brother! He and I had some unbelievably vicious fist fights - the one thing that dad did teach us to do!!!
I paint our life as Bleak as possible so that I'm not tempted to make excuses for or white-wash our sick parents just so I'll LOOK GOOD to judgmental, critical others who want to say their parents were PERFECT when it's obvious that their parents were NOT perfect.
I could outline all the wonderful, loving, helpful, pleasant, heroic, noble, classy and shining examples of excellent parenting in my family BUT the negatives way outweighed the positives so, just because they did a few good things, does not require me to magically overlook and ignore the bad things as most folks, friends, therapists and even Recovery friends WANT me to do.
The anger, hate and pain that forced me into therapy will not be satisfied or silenced just because my parents: got me a bike, a clarinet, new shoes, a haircut, took me out camping, fed me, gave me some $$$, said I have talent, let me off WITHOUT punishment when I made some BIG mistakes, etc.
As good as all of that is, it still never overturned the pain, fear and HATRED that ultimately emerged in therapy when I was finally free to face, honor and VENT the damaged feelings I had bottled up during those years of fear of dad and misplaced respect for our mother.
Theoretically, I should have been able to vent my anger and sorrow in a few days and then get right back to FORGIVENESS and JOY as one therapist insisted but, I had a lot of blistering feelings that he didn't want to hear about or confront. His solution: "SMILE, JIM! ..... Your parents can't hurt you now!" I "smiled" to please him but my RAGE didn't just lay down and die to make him happy.
It's strange just how few people there are, including professionals, who simply do not understand nor recognize the existence of these hidden, buried feeling/memories which is why it took so long for doctors to finally acknowledge and then address Post Traumatic Stress Disorder in many emotionally damaged Veterans returning from battle! I finally see why. These folks who won't acknowledge hidden, painful feelings are doing their best to keep their own inner pains hidden so anyone expressing feelings THREATENS THEM. They don't want some expressive victim to trigger their own bottled up pain so they do everything possible to SILENCE anyone bold enough to express their: hurt, anger, sorrow, misery, fear, bitterness and even their affection and love! My late wife and I were often CHASTISED for openly kissing each other at family gatherings or in public!

We are showing our children how to think and what is important. I believe that we do have genetic memories and that our genes can increase the chances of certain traits and illnesses manifesting under the right conditions, but I believe that teaching a child coping mechanisms is paramount.
You are making an interesting point that I didn't see until going into therapy.
When I enthusiastically left home, right after high school (no college for me!), I felt free as a bird but soon realized that I was extremely unprepared and ill-equipped to face life in the world on my own! I just had no idea what to do, how to live or take care of myself and got into a lot of serious and violent conflicts with impatient others who resented my "behavior".
My bother, who was a little better at making friends than me, was living with a single adult male (he was not gay) down in Hawthorne, CA so his adult friend took me over to the Employment Office where I got a "real" job since I was going nowhere in music and didn't even know how to "get anywhere" as a musician! Whew, suddenly I was making money and soon found a bachelor pad for myself but I was a long way from being able to live like everybody else! Another adult friend of my older brother, who had been out on his own for a year but was living on the floor of his friend's GARAGE, came to see me and showed me how to cook some hamburger on a skillet! I needed a lot of training that should have happened back home!
Mom "sort of" taught us to cook at home but our parents did literally everything for us and we worked at home on THEIR farm so neither of us boys had any real work experience outside of our home/prison. In therapy, I could see how mentally/emotionally challenged (handi-capped) my brother and I were due to inadequate parenting which FAILED to prepare us for life in the real world. I wouldn't have thought so back then but now its all so clear. We were not given adequate training, preparations, or hands on experiences with real life, money, socialization, setting goals, girls, sex, etc. so we blasted off into life like two crippled ducks with broken wings and unhealthy attitudes (Shame).
We had a small band in high school and our guitar player was a "man of the world" who had been out on his own for a few years and, when we went to cafes or the homes of his adult friends, he would be shocked and completely embarrassed by our "weird" and often offensive behaviors. We were absolutely embarrassing and enraging to many adults we met even though we thought we were just "normal" kids having some fun! We were 2 social CRIPPLES!
Our guitar man tried his best to help us "grow up", introduced us to a few girls and become socially normal but he just could not overcome the inadequate conditioning that we already had from our pathetic parents up to that point.

I don't have any animosity toward my family now. I see how they were raised in similar conditions and that they could not teach me what they did not know.
LOL, I tried that "logic" and those "excuses" to absolve my parents of their pathetic inadequacies but somehow it just doesn't work for me. I am not as bitter as I was before about their faulty parenting but somehow the concept that 'they didn't know any better' just doesn't sit well with me. They were both very skilled, socially adept, knew how to handle money, dad built houses FROM SCRATCH, mom was a master cook and homemaker, they had lots of loving friends and were usually well groomed, well mannered and did SEX so - WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO THEIR KIDS????
Well now I know what happened.
Their was not enough love, respect nor INTEREST in the kids so we were never allowed to learn or be part of the many special things our parents had or could do! My brother was closer to mom and dad than I ever was and our little sister was their treasured favorite so they sent her to college since us two Knuckle-heads didn't deserve a college education! I believe our parents did KNOW BETTER - they just didn't give a damn!

I believe most of my past and many peoples mental problems are a lack of coping mechanisms.
I now believe its a LACK OF LOVE and self respect. Our parents did not invite nor welcome us into their personal lives because they did not love nor respect them selves and their SELF CONTEMPT (Shame) expressed itself as a rejection of their two sons but not their daughter.
Their parents and their parents all suffered with SELF CONTEMPT (Shame) which my dad's entire family dealt with by DRINKING but nothing could save them from the sickening ravages of Self Contempt and a significant LACK of love and respect so that is what they passed on to my parents and my parents passed on to (some) of their kids and my older brother passed on to his alcoholic son - SELF CONTEMPT (Shame)!
With the very same "life patterns", my late wife's 2 kids are very successful and look real good on the surface but, one of them is a falling down drunk who has had 3 husbands and a few boyfriends and was molested by the 1st husband of my late wife's sister and 2 daughters of her own who DO NOT LIKE her. The other girl has obvious emotional issues so, because I know a few things about their lousy childhood, it is obvious to me that my late wife, her alcoholic husband and their two girls are all victims of SELF CONTEMPT (Shame)! The same patterns of Self Contempt & Shame run through my late wife's siblings as well, even though most of them work, make money and look "good" on the surface but lurking under all of that apparent success and prosperity are visible threads of insecurity, anger, sorrow, fear and SELF CONTEMPT (Shame)! All because of a significant LACK of love in the early years for all of them and my entire family as well.
We are all victims of a "Love shortage" but some of us have survived or are surviving to finally find love and let it come into our hearts and lives while others deal with their Self Contempt by DRINKING and other ineffective coping mechanisms!
The only "coping mechanism" I ever needed and sometimes still do is SELF RESPECT or Self Love and it's absolutely incredible how much of that is missing or lacking in MOST societies. It's even more incredible that us humans, as intelligent and skilled as we are, cannot see that SELF CONTEMPT & Shame (along with so-called "disorders") is at the heart of most violence, all crime and social violations.
Are we really that DUMB?
Well, I believe my parents were "that dumb"!
I never would have figured out that Self Contempt & Shame was and still is my basic problem without the help of psychology because Spirituality doesn't even acknowledge it.
Spiritually tells us the ego (or devil) is the problem and we need to get rid of it and get re-connected with god.
I noticed that re-connecting with god may or may not get rid of my ego BUT it sure makes me feel better about my self which is just another version of positive self worth or a reduction of my life long habit of SELF CONTEMPT & Shame and I recall that my parents would often express joy and happiness (after church) whenever their life long habits of SELF CONTEMPT & Shame were somehow suspended or briefly dropped.
Many systems talk about Self Love but very few offer folks a practical and doable method to reduce Self Contempt & Shame so self love is easily overwhelmed and killed by the life long habit of Shame which usually disguises itself from it's victims. My parents seemed to Exude self confidence and self worth but, thanks to psychology, their patterns of Self Contempt & Shame are now GLARINGLY obvious starting with dad's extreme racism and mom's blatantly low self worth (Shame).

jimrich

21st September 2016, 17:57

Hell, wouldnt that have been great to have lived a childhood full of immense love & kindness?
.... instead of a life of FEAR, anger and Shame!

My brothers had stronger ego's than I did, so Dad had to keep them in line with a firm hand,
LOL, ..... meaning he beat the crap out of them to break their spirits and control them as he wished! My dad only hit me a few times (to please him self) after which I was very easy to control but he savagely beat, whipped and belted my older bother which frightened me & our little sister to the max, so dad had TOTAL control of his terrified kids and wife with his "firm hand"!

but I was of a sensitive nature and didnt like Dad being agressive, and not being able to talk to him about anything. Every time I tried to talk to him he would just say: "dont worry about it" ~ I dont WORRY!!!! I just wanna chat that's all..
Your dad sounds like my dad. Were you ever able to "chat" with your mom? Did your mom EVER stand up to him in defense of her own children???
LOL, mine NEVER did!
My dad was the absolute Ruler of his roost which he effortlessly ruled with a "firm hand"! :blushing:

Flash

21st September 2016, 18:05

Abuse should not happen.... but it does
Neglect should not happen... but it does

So what are we going to do about it, when it concerns us directly?

Analysing the situation you were in is fine to help to understand. Admitting the emotions that arised from those situation - without drilling in them - is paramount, because it is the path to emotional health. It allows us to see our shadows, so that it does not pass the generation threshold anylonger, it stops to us.

And what else? The blaming games works only for a little while. Afterwards, we are left with not energy because we remain the the victim archetype.

Plus, one often forgets the environmental/cultural backdrops our parents were caught in (ex: very religious education using the ruler on your finger to make you understand, forgiving children the right to respond to adults, having the strap if you dared playing doctor, etc. which were all normal and done to "raise" us, like you raise a bunch of chicken or cows. Love was not paramount, because there were no time for loving demonstrations nor for patient listening - survival was a must and a prime thinking and socially, your "bad" behavior would have to be corrected for your own integration).

I personnaly came to a place where I admit that nobody was at fault, neither my parents, nor me.

So that forgiveness could ensue.

To tell the truth, I truly understood the difficulties my parents had while "raising" their children when I had one of my own, at a late age (so I knew what life was without children). Gosh was I surprised of the difficulties, the time consuming dedication needed, the always all around doubts (I am doing right or wrong), and the absolute tremendous amount of love I could generate from within. Educating and loving children is much more difficult than one may think before having any.

Therefore, I forgave my parents for their mistakes - I tried not to repeat them - if they were mistakes, which I now doubt at times (full responsibility for my own choice of parents before incarnating) and hopefully my daughter will forgive what she will perceive as my own mistakes.

At 78, why not having the rest of your life with pleasure, joy and astonishment at the beauty of the life adventure you went through?

Sueanne47

21st September 2016, 18:31

jimrich

21st September 2016, 18:54

Abuse should not happen.... but it does
Neglect should not happen... but it does
Understanding should happen but often doesn't!

So what are we going to do about it, when it concerns us directly?
I don't know who/what this "we" is but I intend to understand Abuse, Neglect and other negatives in my life and then just do the best I can from now on.

Analysing the situation you were in is fine to help to understand. Admitting the emotions that arised from those situation - without drilling in them
I don't understand what "drilling" is. Do you mean without WALLOWING in them, like someone stuck in the mud? Sometimes it takes a little, temporary drilling or wallowing to get to a deeper understanding of something and most folks can't or won't go that deep - it's just too painful or frightening for them!

- is paramount, because it is the path to emotional health. It allows us to see our shadows, so that it does not pass the generation threshold anylonger, it stops to us.
I agree that it is ONE OF the paths to emotional health which then might benefit future generations.

And what else? The blaming games works only for a little while. Afterwards, we are left with not energy because we remain the the victim archetype.
Yep, you (or we) sure don't want to get stuck in the "blame game" and loose sight of the Solution which is to overcome early trauma and/or PTSD.

Plus, one often forgets the environmental/cultural backdrops our parents were caught in (ex: very religious education using the ruler on your finger to make you understand, forgiving children the right to respond to adults, having the strap if you dared playing doctor, etc. which were all normal and done to "raise" us, like you raise a bunch of chicken or cows. Love was not paramount, because there were no time for loving demonstrations nor for patient listening - survival was a must and a prime thinking and socially, your "bad" behavior would have to be corrected for your own integration).
I suppose one (usually a parent) can and will come up with all kinds of: reasons, excuses, explanations, LIES, DENIAL and/or whatever it takes to let parents and parenting off the hook of personal responsibility but none of that helped me come to terms with what happened to my parents, their parents and their parents or to us kids so I am focusing on what I can do now to undo the mental/emotional damages (to myself) and go on living a better, happier and MORE responsible life than the "stuck in Denial" generations that came before me. I am no way as successful, hard working, productive or BIG as those who came before but I sure am more HONEST than any of them ever were.

I personnaly came to a place where I admit that nobody was at fault, neither my parents, nor me. So that forgiveness could ensue.
Yep, finding "fault" is just the first step. Finding the TRUTH is the final step.

Gosh was I surprised of the difficulties, the time consuming dedication needed, the always all around doubts (I am doing right or wrong),
LOL, I seriously doubt that my parents ever questioned their parenting styles!

and the absolute tremendous amount of love I could generate from within. Educating and loving children is much more difficult than one may think before having any.
OK, it's "difficult" .... so what? Is that an excuse to be inadequate?

Therefore, I forgave my parents for their mistakes - I tried not to repeat them - if they were mistakes, which I now doubt at times (full responsibility for my own choice of parents before incarnating)
Do you know for a fact that you "chose those parents" before entering this side of life?
I've seen that concept elsewhere!
If this is some FACT, then nobody in the entire universe is entitled to complain about the childhood that they selected for them selves.
I'm glad that you are not repeating your own parent's mistakes that were not mistakes, LOL and that you have forgiven them even though you picked them out before your birth.

and hopefully my daughter will forgive what she will perceive as my own mistakes.
Well, if she picked you and your wife out before hand, what would be the problem since all of your are getting what you came here for? I don't get it. If I picked out my very dysfunctional parents before my birth, we all got what we wanted and NEEDED so who's to: blame, resent, question, forgive, copy, worship, etc. We should be one big HAPPY family!

At 78, why not having the rest of your life with pleasure, joy and astonishment at the beauty of the life adventure you went through?
LOL, I am!
Why would you think that I am NOT pleased, joyful and astonished at the beauty of life?
In fact, understanding my rotten past is actually enhancing the thrill and beauty of life in the present moment so a nasty past does not consume my here and now attentions but my past still holds a certain interest or fascination for me as an indicator of how good or bad I'm doing right now.
I know it bothers you and many other parents, for folks like me to speak the truth about our very faulty parents and family but please don't take it Personally. I am not out to blame or attack you!
It's quite possible that some parent might find help and benefits from an open, honest discussion of parenting, childhood and families.
I am not a parent but I was the parent to a few dogs and cats and I made a LOT OF mistakes with them before getting into therapy to learn about my flaws and, if I had it to do over, I'd be a WAY BETTER parent to my pets than I was back then. If they chose me before being born, so be it - and maybe all of us got something useful from the relationship. They got to see what unlovable fools some humans are and I got to see how noble, kind and lovable some animals are.

Perhaps the spiritual answer is the best one = "What will be will be!" What is is supposed to be (for whatever reason or purpose Divinity sets it all up this way)!
Abuse should not happen.... but it does ... because it SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN!
Neglect should not happen... but it does.... because it's MEANT TO HAPPEN!
And Solutions happen because Divinity wants it that way!
All of this is Divinity's stage-play so have a ball and enjoy your cosmic show - it's all you ..... you are: Divinity! :heart:

TargeT

21st September 2016, 19:02

I am so very grateful that I never became a (bad) parent who messed up some kid's life, although I may have messed up a few of our pet's lives.

so your life is messed up and it's your parents fault?

I'm glad for all the challenges I've faced in my life, they've made me who I am; even if I wasn't the biggest fan of all of them.

jimrich

21st September 2016, 19:30

Were you ever able to "chat" with your mom? Did your mom EVER stand up to him in defense of her own children???

If Dad hit me, Mum said "well you shouldnt answer back" sometimes she said "Oh Les, dont!" when hitting me. Speaking about this is making me well up. :(
Most folks CANNOT go here because it just hurts too much or scares them to speak the truth about their beloved or feared parents!
My (spineless) mom just said that we "deserved what we asked for" but I somehow knew that she was getting secret pleasures from dad's sadistic brutality!
They were both the 1st born in two very large families where they HAD TO help raise their siblings and I now believe they both secretly RESENTED children including us 2 boys and maybe even their cherished little girl.

Mum was scared of Dad most of the time even up to the time he died, she loved him and he could be kind & generous, but she didnt like his nasty streak. Only after he died, me & Mum could now talk freely, when he was alive he didnt like us talking. He was in the D Day landings and spoke very little of it.
I feel very bad for and about both of your parents and can see the possibility for hidden, repressed trauma in them. Your dad's PTS war experiences and your mom's fear of him, which may go back to something in her own childhood.
My mom loudly proclaimed that she was NEVER afraid of our violent, abusive dad but I know she was. Denial and Lies no longer fool me!
When I asked my aunt (dad's sister) why our mom never stood up for us, she just said "Your dad would have KNOCKED her block off -everyone in the family was afraid of your dad!"
That made sense and I can see that mom sure didn't want dad to hit her but it was OK with her if he beat the living crap out of and TERRORIZED her defenseless kids! Her pathetic cowardice bothers me, even now, way more than our sadistic dad's violence!!
But don't worry, folks, I'm getting over it! :heart:

jimrich

21st September 2016, 19:34

so your life is messed up and it's your parents fault?
Nope.

I'm glad for all the challenges I've faced in my life, they've made me who I am; even if I wasn't the biggest fan of all of them.
Good for you. :happy dog:

jimrich

21st September 2016, 19:38

TargeT

21st September 2016, 19:52

jimrich

21st September 2016, 20:53

Parents out there.....pleased don't take any of this PERSONALLY. Nobody is out to blame, shame or attack you. This is about UNDERSTANDING more than just whining, complaining, weeping, raging, finding fault and assigning BLAME! :heart:

Pretty hard to understand when you've never been a parent though, right?WRONG!

Last time I checked there's absolutely no way to experience giving 20+ years of your life to someone who: can't make good decisions (and often makes bad ones),
...thanks to inadequate parenting.

is mostly selfish (and unaware of it), has absolutely zero life experience yet wants their ideas to be equally acknowledged,
...thanks to inadequate parenting.

for a period of time is physically incapable of caring for themselves & needs your constant attention,
....which requires adequate parenting or at least a caring nanny.

will push you emotionally (just because they can, unconscious boundary testing),
...the consequence of inadequate parenting!

might test you physically as well (none of my boys have yet),
...thanks to inadequate parenting. LOL, I now believe that our dad left all of us because he could see the day coming very soon when his oldest boy would take him out and, with dad's bad back, he sure didn't want the kid he had so savagely beat up to BREAK his back or worse! I would never would have had the guts to take my ROTTEN father out but I sure wanted to - after therapy and losing my dread fear of him. I seriously wanted to go find him and MURDER him with my bare hands!

will mirror back to you that which you least like about yourself & in the end will be the sweetest most loving and enjoyable experience you've ever had.
Cool! :bigsmile:

Pretty hard to wrap your head around that one "from the outside" & even harder to try and retroactively judge what was going on (because,,, a LOT is going on, all the time!)... I'm not sure how one can understand it with out going through it.
My siblings and I went through it.

I'm a proud member of the "Parent club"... I view it the same way I view my membership in the "Deployed to a Combat Zone" club... you just can't understand it with out "being there"... what single person makes that kind of sacrifice?....
IMO, anyone who sees parenting as a "sacrifice" should never be a parent. Parenting is an HONOR, IMO but I've seen a lot of parents, including mine, who saw it as a sacrifice, burden, disappointment, pain, loss of freedom, invasion, misfortune and many other negatives attached to the curse of parenting.
They could speak of: love, respect, joy, pride and happiness with their kids BUT their attitudes and punitive/judgmental behaviors gave them away so I always knew that they both RESENTED their kids. :happy dog:

Flash

21st September 2016, 21:31

If you want to have a thread where truly bad parenting is discussed, welcome, I am all for it. There is much too much bad parenting around and it has to be discussed. And NO as a parent, I am not scared, troubled, or anything alike to discuss parenting and bad parenting -

However, your response to Target when he described his 20 years of parenting, having had to go through stupid teenager time (them not being good at decision making or pushing thier parents emotionally or testing in many ways, is such a good description of what happens with children, that naming it as bad parenting is at the minimum arrogant, at the maximum totally ignorant of what parenting is about.

For heaven sake, at least read books about it and believe what the experts are telling on parenting, if you have not experienced it yourself. And stop judging others on something you do not know much about.

Any parent who has had teenagers knows that what Target described is a commonality, part of life with children. EVen good parents knows this. You are here showing ignorance while telling parents they are scared of discussion. What a misjudgement and missing the point altogether!!!

Instead of having this negative attitudes towards all parents as you seem to have, why not discussing the real problems such as "what is the impact of having been raised by an alcoholic dad" or "how can one change parenting from violent parenting to loving parenting". This kind of thread would be much more productive it seems to me.

And
anyone who sees parenting as a sacrifice should not be a parent: what about sacrificing for the honor, as a Samourai would do? Sacrifice does not mean burden by the way, it means giving up on one's own needs to provide first for somebody else. You are kidding us with those blatantly false assumptions aren't you.

Parenting, good parenting, extraordinary parenting, is filled with sacrifice. Without sacrifice, you end up with bad parenting.

So you are telling us that your parents were disappointed, seeing their children as a burden, feeling invaded, etc. You are right, in that generation, children were a burden because everything was based on survival, and too many children would burden the wallet and the survival potential of the whole as well as the feeling of freedom from young parents. Plus, women - and men - often had unwanted children and consequently unwanted marriages (marrying the one they did not like and making life as tolerable as possible, your mom's case by the way it seems).

You say that parenting should be about love, respect, joy, pride and happiness - yes, true, with the sacrifices needed and involved, with some stong values involved so that the child has a post against which grow.

Gosh, you hated your parent and still do. No problems there, if they were bad. Why not just say it and then

Get out of it before death gets you, and live.

Now, if your aim is to have a tread about parenting, and not about whining with the "me me me I did not get what I expected I deserved as parents" teenage attitude, well, it is not quite interesting.

A thread on parenting would be however.

Target: I will come back with a thread on overweight and its causes, scientifically based, so that false beliefs can be eradicated from your system, as soon as i have time lol

Parents out there.....pleased don't take any of this PERSONALLY. Nobody is out to blame, shame or attack you. This is about UNDERSTANDING more than just whining, complaining, weeping, raging, finding fault and assigning BLAME! :heart:

Pretty hard to understand when you've never been a parent though, right?WRONG!

Last time I checked there's absolutely no way to experience giving 20+ years of your life to someone who: can't make good decisions (and often makes bad ones),
...thanks to inadequate parenting.

is mostly selfish (and unaware of it), has absolutely zero life experience yet wants their ideas to be equally acknowledged,
...thanks to inadequate parenting.

for a period of time is physically incapable of caring for themselves & needs your constant attention,
....which requires adequate parenting or at least a caring nanny.

will push you emotionally (just because they can, unconscious boundary testing),
...the consequence of inadequate parenting!

might test you physically as well (none of my boys have yet),
...thanks to inadequate parenting. LOL, I now believe that our dad left all of us because he could see the day coming very soon when his oldest boy would take him out and, with dad's bad back, he sure didn't want the kid he had so savagely beat up to BREAK his back or worse! I would never would have had the guts to take my ROTTEN father out but I sure wanted to - after therapy and losing my dread fear of him. I seriously wanted to go find him and MURDER him with my bare hands!

will mirror back to you that which you least like about yourself & in the end will be the sweetest most loving and enjoyable experience you've ever had.
Cool! :bigsmile:

Pretty hard to wrap your head around that one "from the outside" & even harder to try and retroactively judge what was going on (because,,, a LOT is going on, all the time!)... I'm not sure how one can understand it with out going through it.
My siblings and I went through it.

I'm a proud member of the "Parent club"... I view it the same way I view my membership in the "Deployed to a Combat Zone" club... you just can't understand it with out "being there"... what single person makes that kind of sacrifice?....
IMO, anyone who sees parenting as a "sacrifice" should never be a parent. Parenting is an HONOR, IMO but I've seen a lot of parents, including mine, who saw it as a sacrifice, burden, disappointment, pain, loss of freedom, invasion, misfortune and many other negatives attached to the curse of parenting.
They could speak of: love, respect, joy, pride and happiness with their kids BUT their attitudes and punitive/judgmental behaviors gave them away so I always knew that they both RESENTED their kids. :happy dog:

TargeT

21st September 2016, 21:36

Parents out there.....pleased don't take any of this PERSONALLY. Nobody is out to blame, shame or attack you. This is about UNDERSTANDING more than just whining, complaining, weeping, raging, finding fault and assigning BLAME! :heart:

Pretty hard to understand when you've never been a parent though, right?WRONG!

So, what was the purpose of that response? you just wanted to say wrong? care to elaborate a bit?

Last time I checked there's absolutely no way to experience giving 20+ years of your life to someone who: can't make good decisions (and often makes bad ones),
...thanks to inadequate parenting.

Try to view things others say with a bit of objectivity, your perspective is not the only one.

What your saying here doesn't make much sense, in fact it makes no sense. How does a 3 year old know that boiling water is hot? or not to play with the stove? natural curiosity and lack of life experience has nothing to do with parenting, adequate or not.

is mostly selfish (and unaware of it), has absolutely zero life experience yet wants their ideas to be equally acknowledged,
...thanks to inadequate parenting.

again, what? You expect children to be fully developed emotionally at birth?

just being flippant?

for a period of time is physically incapable of caring for themselves & needs your constant attention,
....which requires adequate parenting or at least a caring nanny.
A nanny??

will push you emotionally (just because they can, unconscious boundary testing),
...the consequence of inadequate parenting!

flippancy with exclamation!

might test you physically as well (none of my boys have yet),
...thanks to inadequate parenting. LOL, I now believe that our dad left all of us because he could see the day coming very soon when his oldest boy would take him out and, with dad's bad back, he sure didn't want the kid he had so savagely beat up to BREAK his back or worse! I would never would have had the guts to take my ROTTEN father out but I sure wanted to - after therapy and losing my dread fear of him. I seriously wanted to go find him and MURDER him with my bare hands! I don't think you're quite done with therapy if you still harbor that anger.

My siblings and I went through it.

no, you were children, but if you think your parents were pure evil (a pretty hard thing to be) then so be it.

I'm a proud member of the "Parent club"... I view it the same way I view my membership in the "Deployed to a Combat Zone" club... you just can't understand it with out "being there"... what single person makes that kind of sacrifice?....
IMO, anyone who sees parenting as a "sacrifice" should never be a parent. Parenting is an HONOR, IMO

Oh, sorry; I'm not too well acquainted with the common social lies people tell to each other. If you think parenting is NOT a sacrifice go talk to any teen parent, go talk to my daughter (20 with a 2 year old). Your opinions are pretty far off the mark due to lack of experience... you are welcome to cling to them all you want; but I do not think you will fully overcome your past by demonizing parenthood (at least your own parents) with out fully understanding it (which you don't seem very interested in right now).

jimrich

21st September 2016, 22:01

why not discussing the real problems such as "what is the impact of having been raised by an alcoholic dad" or "how can one change parenting from violent parenting to loving parenting".
OK, go for it.....let's see your opinions about alcoholic dads and violent parenting.

This kind of thread would be much more productive it seems to me.
Yes, way more productive than taking childish, abusive and insulting shots at my opinions! :beer:

jimrich

21st September 2016, 22:30

care to elaborate a bit?
Care to elaborate on your mysterious question?

Last time I checked there's absolutely no way to experience giving 20+ years of your life to someone who: can't make good decisions (and often makes bad ones),
...thanks to inadequate parenting.

How does a 3 year old
You didn't mention a 3 yr old above and it looked like you were speaking of a 20 year old
giving 20+ years of your life to someone

Your opinions are pretty far off the mark due to lack of experience... you are welcome to cling to them all you want; but I do not think you will fully overcome your past by demonizing parenthood (at least your own parents) with out fully understanding it (which you don't seem very interested in right now).

It is quite common and typical for defensive/offensive parents to go after anyone who dares question the hallowed institution of "Parenting" so slam me if you must instead of discussing Parenting and Parents. It's the same old worn out scam from the Parents Club - kill the messenger and ignore his message!
All of you hysterically defensive parents are so obvious and transparent to those of us who were your defenseless victims in the past and we did enough therapy to see through you pathetic LIES.

Try to be mature enough to stick with the subject and not attack the OP and then you might learn something or make a useful contribution to this thread. :happy dog:

jimrich

21st September 2016, 22:34

DON'T KILL THE MESSENGER! :heart:

Flash

21st September 2016, 23:06

DON'T KILL THE MESSENGER! :heart:

you are a very biaised messenger, if messenger at all. You are messenging i do not know what yet, you seem to be more for an argumentative stance about parenting than an informational one about doing it right.

Not that interesting truly.

On avalon, you dill not have many preneurs for argumentative sake only.

AutumnW

21st September 2016, 23:28

Justplain

22nd September 2016, 02:41

I would think that properly raising children is the most honorable thing a person can do. It takes unselfish love.

Bad parenting can be the source of many of people's worst problems. I dont think the scars left by an alcoholic, violently abusive upbringing can ever be fully eradicated. At best, a full awareness of its impact on one's personality can at least permit one to be less entrapped by it.

Hopefully, being aware of bad parenting's impact on one's self, the foregiveness process can begin, of one's parents and one's self. The latter is because people, especially children, often blame themselves for their parents' misbehaviour.

Once released from the burden of hatred, through some sort of understanding, then perhaps one can start to enjoy the good things this world and life have to offer. It may have a bittersweet taste, but this life is all we've got, for now.

jimrich

22nd September 2016, 03:45

It seems that most folks know what bad or inadequate parenting is – too strict or too lenient, too harsh or permissive, too old fashioned or too modern, etc. but what is adequate or good parenting?
Let’s talk about your concepts of good parenting instead of what is wrong with my attitudes, opinions and me.
I’ll start.
Based on my parents parenting, I see good or adequate parenting as having the ability to promote and model love and respect within the parent’s family for their kids to adopt and copy in their own lives.
If our parents had loved and respected each other, which they did not, they would have influenced and conditioned my 1 year older brother to happily and loving accept me into their family.
Since, by the time I was born, our parent’s marriage was already dying (dad HAD TO marry mom) and there was very little love or respect in the family, my older brother was never influenced or conditioned to love or respect me but instead saw me as a menacing invader of his perfect little world and I was now taking his parents love and attention away from him so he absolutely HATED my guts from day one and brutally punished me whenever he could while nobody ever stopped him.
Adequate parents would have noticed my brother’s anger and brutality and then attempted to influence him to stop abusing me and begin lovingly accepting me as his respected brother and not his worst enemy.
Our two very inadequate parents just sat and laughed their butts off at our silly little toddler skirmishes but several years later, our funny little sibling rivalries became quite serious and violent fist fights!
Good parenting would have HELPED my brother happily accept me and then good parenting would have HELPED us happily accept our little sister when she came 4 years after me but, inadequate parenting allowed my brother and I to be mortal enemies and then turn on our little sister with jealous hatred when she was born. We had to be very careful how we abused our little sister because she was dad’s favorite and he would have murdered us if we ever harmed her. We just shifted over to teasing, verbal abuse and shunning her like a disease.
Good parenting could have easily HELPED us kids be best and most respectful friends the whole time and not bitter, spiteful enemies.

Good parenting would have taught my brother and I that lying and stealing is not OK.

I became quite a liar at a very early age when I discovered that the kids who lied to their parents and other adults usually got off with no punishments and were often rewarded. I was gullible and honest so, if I broke the neighbor’s window with a ball, I told my parents the truth and was usually severely punished whereas if other kids innocently said they didn’t know how the window got broken (when they did it) their parents happily accepted their LIE and sometimes gave them a reward for NOT breaking a window!
Good parenting would have taught us kids to be honest and righteous and trust that our parents would NOT shame or brutally punish us beyond reason for coming forward with the truth.
But my inadequate parents made it clear to me that I was NOT safe being honest with them and if I was stupid enough to tell the truth, I’D BE SERIOUSLY HURT or HUMILIATED!
They never told me to be a liar but their actions influenced me to become the biggest and best liar in our family! I also noticed that, if I lied to them (when I made some mistake) they were so RELIEVED whereas, if I told the truth about something that I did wrong, they would become very upset, abusive and personally HURT.
An adequate parent would make it safe and RIGHT for their kid to be honest with them which might include some kind of punishment but NOT unreasonable violent punishments like we often got.
An adequate parent would make it possible for their child to safely and respectfully come to them with any issues and not be afraid of the parents whereas bad parents, like mine, made it necessary for me to go underground and behind their menacing, abusive backs to “do my thing” and avoid their painful punishments and humiliations. They made it IMPOSSIBLE to trust or respect them!
A good parent would at least try to keep the love, respect, friendship and CONNECTION with their kid rather than see their kid start avoiding them and slowly begin drifting away into a separate and dark world away from their hostile and unloving parents - like what happened in our unhappy family.

We became thieves when we realized that stealing was cool and everyone was doing it, so the game was to do whatever you want – just don’t get caught. When I say everyone was doing it, I mean all the kids in our family, neighborhood and then later on at school.
Good parenting would have conditioned and influenced us to know that stealing is wrong and bad and that it can bring stiff penalties but there was a sort of unwritten “just don’t get caught” mentality in our family so my brother and I were not getting very good training about right and wrong.
We gravitated towards lying and stealing because of the “don’t get caught” rule which we thought we could beat. When I stole and lied, I NEVER thought of it as “right” or “wrong”!
If we had received good parenting, we would not have done or even been tempted to do those things even if other kids and our relatives were lying and stealing! There was a subtle but obvious lack of morals and dignity in our home, which inspired us to worship movie & comic book criminals and bad guys while holding contempt for heroes and lawmen.
I really loved and respected Roy Rogers but the moment I was out of the theater, my mind turned to lying, stealing and other naughty things right away!
Good and adequate parenting would have promoted: honesty, dignity, self respect, responsibility, sincerity, love and respect in our home and in our hearts and minds.
Inadequate parenting promotes just the opposite: fear of (old school) or contempt for (new generation) the parents.....Mistrust, hostility, ridicule, dishonesty, stealing, criminal behavior, sex crimes, white collar crime, new generation faults and failings, abandonment and other unsatisfactory conditions that loving and respectful parenting overcomes.
I’d like to read about your concepts for good, adequate parenting and how it has worked in you life or how you believe it COULD work in a child’s life. :coffee:

matissathepissa

22nd September 2016, 04:05

I was abused but always knew I was loved. My mom was a mean drunk. I was her baby so my sister got worse than I did. I have , I guess I have abuse guilt. But my mom changed. I live her dip much and she has guilt about the way she tasted us. She cried about it and beefs fir forgiveness. I told her i forgave her a long time ago. And i did. She is not the same person anymore. But enough of e. My mom had problems and healed as did i.

Back on subject. ..I try to speak truths with my son. The truth wI'll set you free...do true

jimrich

22nd September 2016, 04:08

jimrich

22nd September 2016, 04:12

..I try to speak truths with my son. The truth wI'll set you free...do true
Good for you! I'd like to be your kid! :flower:

jimrich

22nd September 2016, 04:17

I would think that properly raising children is the most honorable thing a person can do. It takes unselfish love.

I don't know if you are a parent but, what would you say good or adequate parenting would be like. Please give some examples of good parenting in your opinion or personal experiences. :flower:
thanks,
jim

Innocent Warrior

22nd September 2016, 06:24

Member of "the parent club" here. :waving:

Good parenting skills, hmm, let's see...

Well I was abused and neglectd as a child too, so love and plenty of attention for my son has always been at the top of my priorities list, obviously, like a lot of parents. Probably the most important lesson I learned was to allow him to be him, because I never even thought of that before he came along, as obvious as it seems in hindsight. Earlier on I had some well intentioned ideas on what a good parent would do, like making sure he learned an instrument, that he went to boy scouts and was part of a sports team and had good grades lol. Well, my son is rather resilient against being told what he should do and I didn't get that far with all of my ideals and ended up learning the importance of listening to what he has to say on who he is and what he's interested in doing.

I've been very lucky, he's been an easy child, well mannered, very loving, bright and wise beyond his years. He's growing into a bright young man who's comfortable in his skin, with plans of being a video game developer. I taught him to follow his joy and that's what his answer was when I asked him what he thought the most fun job he could think of was, so OK. :)

I guess you could say he's taught me as much about being a parent as I've taught him about life on this planet, in this world. So far so good.

I've only had one child so far because I didn't want to spread myself too thin for fear of messing up like my parents did, but TargetT is right you know, it's completely different being on the other side of that coin. You go into it with all these ideals and plans on how you're going to be a better parent than your parents and you end up discovering things about yourself you'd never considered before this precious child came into your life, this precious child with all his own ideas on what he needs from his Mum and Dad. And so the learning begins.

jimrich

22nd September 2016, 06:43

Probably the most important lesson I learned was to allow him to be him,
Thanks 4 this post. Your post is both powerful and significant and I hope a lot of adults, parents or otherwise, come to read what you so eloquently have written here about your parenting and your son.
Love and respect,
jim :cocktail:

greybeard

22nd September 2016, 06:47

There are many cases where children of the worst parents have become good and happy parents them selves.

There are cases where the children who had good and kind parents became evil.- even killed their parents for money.

The most difficult and rewarding thing is to be a parent.
You are responsible 24 hours a day--you are limited in what you can do ie in the spur of the moment you cant just go some where without arranging "baby" sitter.

Good parenting is an art--you cant really be taught it though advice helps.

Having "bad" parents does not mean you have to be a bad parent.

Whatever mother you have, she went through the pain of birthing you carrying you in the womb for 9 month.

I would not dream of talking about being a woman and giving birth or raising a child as a mother because its out with my experience.

Whatever I felt about the treatment received from parents I would not talk about it on open forum particularly as they are not alive to explain defend their actions--expressing at a 12 step group is different and confidential.

Chris

jimrich

22nd September 2016, 07:23

More on good, adequate parenting.
If my brother and I had been given good/adequate parenting, we might have gone out into the world with good and noble intentions but, our parents were not very good role models for noble or dignified pursuits so my brother, who was a juvenile thief, finally made it into the big time and went to prison for armed robbery. I wanted to be a thief but was just to scared of the law and authorities so I chickened out and went into the Army since I had no idea what to do with my life. In many ways, we were both seriously deprived of an adequate moral foundation so strangers, friends and even enemies had to help us fill up the blanks that our inadequate parents left in us.
Good parenting would have started us off with high, healthy and noble self esteem/worth. Good parenting would have given us some pride in our selves and much higher standards of behaviors and goals. Good parenting would have taught us how to: dress, carry our selves, talk, listen, love, express respect, honor others, help others, contribute to our communities, be law abiding rather than law fearing or hating and have some kind of spiritual foundation or respect. I cannot say enough about good parenting only because I never had much of it.
Our parents were industrious, hard working, intelligent, caring (somewhat), a religious mom, exceptionally skilled and ambitious, sometimes quite heroic and noble BUT...... all of that simply could not offset the huge array of negative behaviors and beliefs of theirs that had such destructive effects on their kids - particularly their two boys.
What say ye about good parenting????

jimrich

22nd September 2016, 07:27

Whatever I felt about the treatment received from parents I would not talk about it on open forum
To each his own! :raining:

greybeard

22nd September 2016, 07:29

Jimrich with respect almost every post is about you and the bad parenting you had.
I dont doubt its true and was horrific.
Your 78 years of age--no longer a child.

Ch

jimrich

22nd September 2016, 07:31

Jimrich with respect almost every post is about you and the bad parenting you had.
I dont doubt its true and was horrific.
Your 78 years of age--no longer a child.

Ch
......and your point is..? :raining:

greybeard

22nd September 2016, 08:03

jimrich elsewhere you quote spiritual teachers, you are obviously knowledgeable on the subject--you have spent years studying Advaita.

One of the main teachings is to be in this moment to let go of the past.
Can you not do that?--pain and suffering belong in the past.

Its not necessary to buy into every thought that comes up.
You like Mooji--what would he say to you at a Satsang if you talked repeatedly about things that happened many years ago?

I have scars on my body from a sledging accident that nearly took my life--I would go sledging tomorrow.
Nearly drowned twice--I would go swimming tomorrow--what is there to limit me? Only a thought that I cant.
Thoughts come and go --they are transient--they dont rule my life.
I dont avoid them, deny them--I just dont feed them, give them energy.

Chris

greybeard

22nd September 2016, 08:08

Im off to take my wife Rosaline to the plane to Cameroon where she was born and bred--she will be doing more over there to help young children get a good education part of parenting

The charity she started is in my signature.
That helps kids get a good start in life through education.

Chris

Justplain

22nd September 2016, 13:05

Hi Jimrich, yes i am both a parent and a step-parent. These roles have provided some of the most rewarding, and challenging, moments of my life.

Examples of good parenting:

- being supportive and affectionate, especially in a time of need, such as giving deserved praise and a hug when needed (children need hugs, kisses and hand holding especially at younger ages)
- disciplining when necessary, such as after misbehaviour like stealing or not doing chores, etc., mostly by depriving the child of something they like, such as tv or computer time, or going to bed early.
- being consistent in how the child is treated, rewarding and punishing, in reasonable quantities when deserved
- feeding them nourishing food
- restricting the child's access to negative influences, such as violent or anti-social media (my daughter doesnt watch much tv except sports with me, no net surfing either except for school related stuff)

Bad parenting:

- beating kids
- not showing enough attention to them when needed
- being inconsistent
- providing bad food
- not regulating media activity

Hope that helps.

Baby Steps

22nd September 2016, 13:29

I had a fairly stable family start, although I was the first and my mum was, as she always says, immature and not equal to the challenge of me, her first, bright, imaginative, creative and demanding child-1 of 4.

We had an oppositional and conflict filled early relationship.

I remember once making a toy aeroplane kit and showing it to her. I was disappointed by her reaction-maybe not enough praise & acknowledgement, triggered me to smash up my toy.

Family grew and progressed & was chaotic as you can imagine. Parenting could be harsh, particularly when trying to control 4 at once.

my dark thoughts & depression probably started at about 7, and I started climbing out in my early 20's. the Spiritual journey has been such a help.

I started concentrating on this dis-functional relationship. Later my mum would indulge in self-flagellation (not literally) - saying that she was a bad parent, I was badly brought up, not loved enough, not encouraged enough etc.

My spiritual work, meditation and prayer brought forth the following:

1. I had to heal whatever resentments, hurts, blame that I carried towards my mum.
2. I did not know , or want to know what the karmic play was-it was just two damaged people fighting & needed to be healed.
3. I made it a mission to help her with her guilt and regret.
4. I realised that the best way for me to heal her guilt & regret was to become a happy, functional & productive person

Great progress has been made and I am sure it is a big part of my journey back to stability. The icing on the cake is that having our own child has presented a great opportunity. My mum, bless her, has had the opportunity to do alot of 'Granny duty', of course she loves it. She is the third parent. We see her regularly & she loves staying with us. Her other grandchildren are abroad. The boy is, of course , having a much happier start than I did, it has all been a very healing experience for everyone.

For me it is another way of grasping this 'there is only one' principal. I will not examine what karma there may, or may not have been. I will not deal in blame. I will just heal whoever I can. If I could not heal myself, at least I tried to heal 'the other party', and of course found my own healing along that journey...

God bless.

Sueanne47

22nd September 2016, 13:39

inadequate parenting allowed my brother and I to be mortal enemies and then turn on our little sister with jealous hatred when she was born. We just shifted over to teasing, verbal abuse and shunning her like a disease.

OMG I can relate to that!! but Dad didnt treat me like a favourite or let me have an opinion.

I'm a parent as well, Emma my daughter who's 21 has only just started to talk to me (a little though ~ she is arrogant, haughty & an independant Annie!) so I've been quiet to let her come to me..but Dad did put a word in her ear. Good parenting includes letting the child speak and have an opinion so they can let their confidence grow but also give them guidance that they can take or leave, also having fun together forms a glue between you, after all we dont want them to look back and have bad thoughts as a child.

Lifebringer

22nd September 2016, 14:42

I too have been abused as a child and my children suffered when I too picked up the same nasty alcoholic flare ups. They were young and rebellious as I was hard of hearing (due to abuse with a mayonaise jar across the ear) high pitched noises set me off and that's after sexual abuse by not immediate family members when I was 3 until 7 years of age. When I drank away the pain, it enhanced the hurt and need for closure that never comes. You must look at it like a bad zit stage in puberty and now realize you've matured. I've had multiple personality disorder which is actually a safe house of the mind, that takes you out of those horrible situations. It took a long time to finally pull myself together, and I had to do it by not allowing "mood altering drugs when I'm blue" to enhance the depressed state those relived thoughts bring. My 1st born's father was highly abusive drunk, where as I was an "escapism drunk." I'll not get too in depth as, you yourself have said, judgements of others isn't really that important, as surviving the whole experience(s).

Bottom line is "you are not alone, they were taught by those who also were slapped for being smarter than their parents in education, but what doesn't kill us makes us stronger and smarter to not do that to others, unless in defense.:shielddeflect:

jimrich

22nd September 2016, 15:03

Dear Lifebringer, your story is very touching and painful and I wish I had a magic wand to make it all better and you seem to be doing good now so maybe it is "better" after all.

they were taught by those who also were slapped for being smarter than their parents in education,
Without getting into the deep and dark mental/emotional jungle of my parent's and a "paddling" school teacher, they "slapped, hit, beat and paddled" us BECAUSE THEY COULD!
We, their helpless victims, could not stop them and the law was on their side back then.
They abused us in the name of "teaching us a lesson" because they LOVED IT! If they had not been getting some THRILL from hurting us (Sadism), they would NOT have bothered.
As an adult, I can now see exactly why adults do this to their defenseless victims and pets - IT'S FUN! :muscle: (for the adult!)

but what doesn't kill us makes us stronger and smarter to not do that to others, unless in defense.:shielddeflect:
The bottom line is the golden rule: Do not do to others what you don't want done unto you!....or something like that...., and, although I've abused others and animals, I KNEW BETTER but did it anyway - BECAUSE I COULD!
So, I am just like my BAD parents in many ways, but I do try to follow the golden rule when I have a glimmer of Conscience.
I've often wondered if any of these Abusers, like my parents, ever even get a Conscience? Probably not when they are DRUNK or ANGRY!!!!
I am proud of you for trying to follow the golden rule...... Bless you. :heart:

TargeT

22nd September 2016, 15:29

You go into it with all these ideals and plans on how you're going to be a better parent than your parents and you end up discovering things ....

Like showing love isn't done via gifts and "spoiling"... The best parenting is done when clarity in the duty is achieved. I'm raising capable, independent, balanced individuals (or at least, that's my goal) and a big part of that is letting them discover things on their own and encouraging self reliance and self confidence over safety net usage.

a Light touch is best IMO (don't micro manage, observe and advise); that and heavily fostering curiosity (aka self motivation).

I've had a lot of practice, I have 6 children and 1 grandchild currently.

All of you hysterically defensive parents are so obvious and transparent to those of us who were your defenseless victims in the past and we did enough therapy to see through you pathetic LIES.

I think you're looking for your parents here, I don't think you'll find them.

jimrich

22nd September 2016, 15:34

OMG I can relate to that!! but Dad didnt treat me like a favourite or let me have an opinion.
Our little sister was allowed to speak and have opinions but she was very quiet and I now believe that she lived in dread fear of dad and us mean boys. I liked and loved my little sister but never had the emotional skills to be a good friend to her. She was the brightest light in my otherwise bleak and black life and it still hurts to remember has badly I sometimes treated her!

I'm a parent as well, Emma my daughter who's 21 has only just started to talk to me (a little though ~ she is arrogant, haughty & an independant Annie!) so I've been quiet to let her come to me
I'm sorry about that. What did you and your husband do to her?
I lost my love and respect for my parents very early on and only spoke to them when I absolutely had to. As an adult, I had very little to do with mom and nothing to do with dad. They, not I, set up the bad relationship between us and it never got fixed! They both died ALONE!

..but Dad did put a word in her ear.
What does that mean?

Good parenting includes letting the child speak and have an opinion so they can let their confidence grow but also give them guidance that they can take or leave,
When I visited my cousin Gary, the 3 kids would sit at breakfast and JABBER like a pack of happy unfettered monkeys which startled me since we ate in Stony Silence at my home! Dad HATED noise at the table so we never smacked our lips to made any unnecessary sounds! I could see that the kids at my cousin's home were: happy, unafraid, open, very opinionated and the parents both listened, laughed and allowed their silly, childish opinions on everything. They did not live in shameful terror like we had to!

also having fun together forms a glue between you, after all we dont want them to look back and have bad thoughts as a child.
LOL, I don't think my parents cared one way or the other about our attitudes towards them. I'm sorry that your child is not happy with you. Again, what did you do to her? :raining:
Best wishes,:heart:
jim

jimrich

22nd September 2016, 15:42

I will just heal whoever I can.

BEAUTIFUL! :heart:

jimrich

22nd September 2016, 15:50

I would go sledging tomorrow.

Good for you.
Now, get a Sponsor!

jimrich

22nd September 2016, 15:58

Sueanne47

22nd September 2016, 16:07

Hi Jimrich,

That is just my daughter's character ~ very independent, doesnt like to talk much but she isnt unhappy, you know how teenagers are! they are entranced with their Iphone 95% of the time..

jimrich

22nd September 2016, 16:51

Chris, at first I wanted to just ignore this childish AA/Al-anon lecture but since we are both Recovery veterans, I’ve decided to let others see how Recovery veterans handle these things.

jimrich elsewhere you quote spiritual teachers, you are obviously knowledgeable on the subject--you have spent years studying Advaita.

One of the main teachings is to be in this moment to let go of the past.
Can you not do that?

Yes, I can be in the moment, can you do that?
As for the “past”, it needs to be worked with and on it to find some peace with what happened back then. Don’t ignore your past because it contains valuable insights for the now. The pains and feelings plus the joys from one's past are significant and should not concern anyone other than those within those past relationships.
Can you let go of Jim's past?

--pain and suffering belong in the past.
If that is your opinion, fine.
Pain and suffering need to be resolved and healed or they will never stop pestering you. Ask anyone with PTSD!
Can you do that with your obviously unhealed past pains?

Its not necessary to buy into every thought that comes up.
So, why do you still do it?

You like Mooji--what would he say to you at a Satsang if you talked repeatedly about things that happened many years ago?
First of all, Mooji would not get annoyed like you and many others are at this forum and then give an AA lecture.
He’d say, “Your on the right track, Jim, so keep on talking about and working on those feelings and issues UNTIL they are resolved and healed. Its working, one day at a time, no pain-no gain, feel what you feel, let go, let god, stay in the now.” LOL, Mooji would have many more powerful pointers to offer.

I have scars on my body from a sledging accident that nearly took my life--I would go sledging tomorrow.
Mooji and Rupert would wisely ask: Who is this 'I'? .... your ego or Reality?

Nearly drowned twice--I would go swimming tomorrow
Again, Mooji and Rupert would wisely ask: Who is this 'I'? ....your ego or Reality?

--what is there to limit me? Only a thought that I cant.
Who/what is this 'me' and this 'I'? ....your ego or Reality?

Thoughts come and go --they are transient--they dont rule my life.
Who/what has a life? ....your ego or Reality?

I dont avoid them, deny them--I just dont feed them, give them energy.
Who or what are these 'I's and are you speaking as your AA ego or as Reality?

For anybody else reading this.... Who/what is sitting there reading? .... an ego or Reality? What is looking from out of your eyes, right now.... your ego or Reality???

If it's your ego, you're stuck....but if it's Reality, you're home free!!!!!

This is just one example of what often happens at Sharing Meetings!:heart:

jimrich

22nd September 2016, 17:15

you know how teenagers are!
Yes, I remember being a teenager. Were you ever one?
I remember that some of us teenagers were wonderful, happy, respectful, kind, vocal, good and honorable kids, thanks to good parenting and then there were kids like your daughter, my brother and me and my late wife's girls who, thanks to very inadequate parenting were not so good!
Every kid I ever knew or know now is either good as the result of good parenting or is/was damaged in some way by bad parenting.
Well, I suppose genetics and disorders could be considered but we were mostly effected by parenting - both good and bad!
Many parents whine about teenagers without ever seeing that their kid is a reflection of the kind of parenting that created this unhappy teenager in the first place!
When my late wife bitched and whined about her 2 kids, I often said, "Look who raised them!" (She had no answer for that!) It ticked me off when she, a very inadequate mother plus an alcoholic dad, putting her own kids down!

After my late wife crossed over (she's still here), I learned that their oldest daughter was MOLESTED as a child by her Aunt's 1st husband and NOTHING was ever done about it!
Well, I guess something like that could produce an unhappy teenager and now an ALCOHOLIC - not that many parents could or would notice this!
Your teenager is nothing more than a reflection of you and your good or bad parenting so stop whining and learn something from your kids.
Several of the women in my late wife's family were raped and molested as young kids.............so, WHERE THE HELL WERE THEIR PARENTS??????? :(

Flash

22nd September 2016, 17:20

Being a good parent is:

Being filled with love for your children, this is paramount - in fact being filled with love for all in your life and filled with thanks for life itself.

Being a post on which to lean when needed for your children, being a guide when needed since you are 30-40 years older and have learned a bit about life.

Being and letting them be. This means being able to perceive who your children are, what are their talents and foster it the most you can.

Knowing, because of your life experience, that teenagers are teenagers and will be rough with you when going through it. Their hormones play havoc, their brain is not completely formed yet, but they think they know and you don't. Lots of patience and strong interventions at times is a must.

Sacrifice, yes, sacrificing your time - lots lots lots of it, your energy - lots a it , your finance(around 150,000 to 200,000$ to raise a child not counting college or university, when they have no major problems), sometimes sacrificing your friends, for the prime welfare and well being of your children. Putting them first while taking care of your own needs when possible (yes, i say when possible because it is not always possible).

Finally, being flexible and ready to change your stance on a quarter flipping, when unexpected situations arise.

Of course, no dope or booze around, learning about good food, the biology of the body, the spiritual side of human beings, and transfering it into your care for your children.

NOW

Now, not many people are able to do ALL of this. Can we reproach them? Certainly not, they do the best they can, if not on drugs or too brainwashed.

- I will not give my own experience here as a mom because it is misjudged by the OP and classified, categorised as good or bad, definitely not understood. I do think I was an exceptional mom, and my daughter says so too, even if sometimes she tells me I overdo it. The fact is that she can tell me, and I will listen. The fact is that we both went through very particular circumstances that cannot be judged or evaluated by outsiders. This did build up our relationship in a very strong way. The fact is that she still needs, at 20 years old, her 1-2 hours every second day of discussion with her mom about her life, her thinking, or need for advice (that she asks for). I am sooooooo glad she can speak period, let alone speak her mind, that it is a pleasure to keep up conversing with her, sacrificing time with my boyfriend to do so.

But, I have a question for the OP: what is being a good child to one's parents?

I am sad to see Jimrich that, at 78, you are still in the "me me me me" pattern and "look what has been done to me and whose fault it is" pattern. The rest is to give us a lesson on how to parent our children (this is quite arrogant lolllll but cute at the same time, because we see what you don't). Anyhow, you are a very good lesson to me. I will solve all remnant of disagreement and anger towards my mom before I or she pass away. I now want to live fully and not being hanged on past anger.

greybeard

22nd September 2016, 17:21

Jim I am not angry, laughing.
Why would I be?
I know what I am.

Best wishes
Chris

Flash

22nd September 2016, 17:31

Why don't you just plainly love Jimrich. Just love your step daughter for having done what she could in ther life. Love her mother for having dealt with life as she could, love your sister and brother, AND MOSTLY LOVE YOURSELF, true love, knowing who you are - defect or tendencies and qualities. Just give love to all, you cannot imagine how it is curative to those on the receiving end.

And you don't understand teenagers at all, so stop patronizing parents here for the ways they deal with their teenagers. This is on the fringe of insulting. For heaven sake, Just love those parents caught with difficulties.

If you would have an ioata of understanding of human biology and changes during growth and their impact on behaviors, you would just know to shut up when considerieng teenagers education.

you know how teenagers are!
Yes, I remember being a teenager. Were you ever one?
I remember that some of us teenagers were wonderful, happy, respectful, kind, vocal, good and honorable kids, thanks to good parenting and then there were kids like your daughter, my brother and me and my late wife's girls who, thanks to very inadequate parenting were not so good!
Every kid I ever knew or know now is either good as the result of good parenting or is/was damaged in some way by bad parenting.
Well, I suppose genetics and disorders could be considered but we were mostly effected by parenting - both good and bad!
Many parents whine about teenagers without ever seeing that their kid is a reflection of the kind of parenting that created this unhappy teenager in the first place!
When my late wife bitched and whined about her 2 kids, I often said, "Look who raised them!" (She had no answer for that!) It ticked me off when she, a very inadequate mother plus an alcoholic dad, putting her own kids down!

After my late wife crossed over (she's still here), I learned that their oldest daughter was MOLESTED as a child by her Aunt's 1st husband and NOTHING was ever done about it!
Well, I guess something like that could produce an unhappy teenager and now an ALCOHOLIC - not that many parents could or would notice this!
Your teenager is nothing more than a reflection of you and your good or bad parenting so stop whining and learn something from your kids.
Several of the women in my late wife's family were raped and molested as young kids.............so, WHERE THE HELL WERE THEIR PARENTS??????? :(

I cannot believe that instead of helping your wife when she had difficulties with her children, you put her down "Look who raised them" IS PUTTING HER DOWN. So you contributed to the problem it seems instead of helping.

Second, you are whining yourself about your own parents, how can you tell a parent to stop whining about anything????

Ok, this is my last post here.

jimrich

22nd September 2016, 17:43

Jim I am not angry, laughing.
Why would I be?
I know what I am.

Best wishes
Chris
LOL, I also know what you are!

jimrich

22nd September 2016, 17:46

Ok, this is my last post here.
Bye, bye. :clapping:

Flash

22nd September 2016, 17:49

you don't like my take on you don't you? You cannot look at yourself?? or you are drinking before writing???

Just love,

Ok, this is my last post here.
Bye, bye. :clapping:

AutumnW

22nd September 2016, 17:49

Jimrich, you forgot the "Nyah,Nyah,Nyah,Nyah,Nyah,Nyah!" There's also the crowd pleasing,"made you look!" How about, "I know you are but what am I??"

Seriously, grow a pair, quit manipulating people, cross examining them, insulting them. If you want to fight with somebody, you have picked the wrong group.

jimrich

22nd September 2016, 17:54

I'm guessing, based on the few parents I know or knew that raising kids is NOT the toughest part of a parent's life. Being HONEST with your self is the toughest part and is actually the toughest part of life for most humans because we are taught to be DISHONEST with our selves from a very early age to please and fit in with the DISHONEST folks around us. It took my parents and some other very angry folks a while to break me of my tendency and desire to be HONEST but, once they succeeded beating HONESTY out of me, I (the ego) became very skilled at Denial, Delusion and DISHONESTY - just like most of you (egos) are!
Society insists on Denial and Self Deception so here we are - a pack of Deluded egoic LIARS. Welcome to the party, everyone! Now go have some fun............ :cake: :cake: :cake:

TargeT

22nd September 2016, 17:55

this is my last post here.

its hard to work things through when you approach a subject with a self self righteous attitude & are actively looking for a combative exchange (I'm guessing some unprocessed stuff is begging to be dealt with... a "Heroic dose (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nrj1X6TzEXo)" of psilocybin might help?)

A full cup can receive nothing

Ok, this is my last post here.
Bye, bye. :clapping:

My 9 year old acts like this.. at times she always has to get the last word too.

How was this response helpful or conducive to discussion at all?

Did it further some hidden agenda you have, or are you just indulging your ego?

jimrich

22nd September 2016, 17:59

jimrich

22nd September 2016, 18:05

A full cup can receive nothing

Brilliant! :cake: :cake: :cake:

jimrich

22nd September 2016, 18:33

Hello, Moderators:
So far, this is the best post on the subject of Parenting so you might as well close this Threat as this post just about sums it all up for anyone interested in the subject of Parenting.
There may be more useful comments to come but this is as good as it gets so please just close the Thread.
Thank you :heart:

Hi Jimrich, yes i am both a parent and a step-parent. These roles have provided some of the most rewarding, and challenging, moments of my life.

Examples of good parenting:

- being supportive and affectionate, especially in a time of need, such as giving deserved praise and a hug when needed (children need hugs, kisses and hand holding especially at younger ages)
- disciplining when necessary, such as after misbehaviour like stealing or not doing chores, etc., mostly by depriving the child of something they like, such as tv or computer time, or going to bed early.
- being consistent in how the child is treated, rewarding and punishing, in reasonable quantities when deserved
- feeding them nourishing food
- restricting the child's access to negative influences, such as violent or anti-social media (my daughter doesnt watch much tv except sports with me, no net surfing either except for school related stuff)

Bad parenting:

- beating kids
- not showing enough attention to them when needed
- being inconsistent
- providing bad food
- not regulating media activity

Hope that helps.

Innocent Warrior

22nd September 2016, 19:07

I think you may have killed it anyway, Jim.

https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/hphotos-xaf1/t51.2885-15/s306x306/e15/11190766_900292109993311_458652859_n.jpg

@TargeT Thanks for the suggestions, appreciate it.

greybeard

22nd September 2016, 19:14

So far, this is the best post on the subject of Parenting so you might as well close this Threat as this post just about sums it all up for anyone interested in the subject of Parenting.

Is that a Freudian slip--threat.
There is no threat to you here --

Chris

RunningDeer

22nd September 2016, 20:13

post deleted
http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/Recovered/garbage-can_zpsgd97ktcu.GIF

greybeard

22nd September 2016, 21:05

I dont think I have ever seen anyone so determined to be so disrespectful and ultimately get warnings from mods for disrespect.
Sigh
Chris

Flash

22nd September 2016, 21:12

I dont think I have ever seen anyone so determined to be so disrespectful and ultimately get warnings from mods for disrespect.
Sigh
Chris

I think Running Deer will catch on fast.

You will be condemned because this chap cannot come to term with himself - sorry for him, he does not know what he misses in life.

I think you have been a very good mom Running Deer.

jimrich

22nd September 2016, 21:25

Training your kids!
Have any of you ever figured out why punishment and control rarely works? Were you ever a kid? Did you ever do "bad" things behind your parent's backs? If yes, WHY? If you loved and respected your parents, why did you go behind their backs to do your thing? What were you afraid would happen if your beloved parents found out about some of the things you did - or even THOUGHT? Why did you HAVE TO sneak around, lie, cheat, steal, break things, say ugly stuff, etc. when your parents would not CATCH you at it?? Surely many if not most of you lived a double life at some point and HAD TO keep certain things from those you SUPPOSEDLY loved, respected, obeyed and wanted to PLEASE - no matter what, so WHY did you do it - IF YOU EVER DID????

My older brother and I began living a secret, underground double life from the first day we realized that we could no longer trust nor respect our very abusive and controlling parents. They, not us, set up all the lousy conditions for us to begin EMOTIONALLY moving away from them and down into our secret world of: contempt, disrespect, lies, stealing, breaking things, cheating and all kinds of NASTY behaviors and new beliefs and behaviors other kids were showing us right under our stupid parents noses. It was dangerous and very risky and sometimes our secret life was discovered by our parents so we's be savagely beaten or punished but then we'd go right back to our safe, underground life anyway because there was NO way we were ever going back to loving and trusting our prison warden parents again!

LOL, how was it for you as a kid? Were you forced to go underground by bad parenting or were you allowed to live a decent, honest, loving and respectful life WITH GOOD parents? How is it now for you as a parent? Are you a good parent who has loving, respectful and responsible kids or have you set things up so you kids are having to live a double life right under your noses? Do you even know if your kid(s) is living a double life? Do you even care? If you did suspect that you child is living a double life, what would you do to bring your child back to you BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE and suddenly your kid has moved into a cult or sitting in jail?
I'd really like to know what any of you would do if and when you ever figure it out that YOU have lost or pushed away your own child!!! My stupid parents never figured it out!

greybeard

22nd September 2016, 21:29

Some times tough love is necessary and beneficial.
I know as a child if I had done something that I kew was wrong it was actually a relief to be found out and receive just and fair punishment.
Some children can test your patience to the limit--they can even set one parent against an other.
That did not happen with my children but I have seen other parents go through that.
I know Paula to be a compassionate and fair minded person.

Chris

RunningDeer

22nd September 2016, 21:30

Kids naturally test the waters. It’s preparation for when they go out into the world. A home with love and forgiveness builds their character over time. Life is experimentation. Learned boundaries. Kids develop integrity and trust even when tough love is called for.

Note: jimrich, this is my last post on your thread. Any perspective you have to offer does not fit in my world. Black/white thinking is sooooo not cool.

Bill Ryan

22nd September 2016, 21:33

.
A mod note: one of jimrich's completely insensitive and unacceptable posts has been deleted, and he has been immediately suspended for a week while the mods decide what action to take. This is so far from okay you'd need a laser beam, not a ruler, to measure it.

Edit to add, 8 minutes later: jimrich has been permanently unsubscribed. The mods would like to apologize to anyone following this thread who may justifiably feel that we should have taken definitive action a little earlier.

:bearhug:

greybeard

22nd September 2016, 21:46

Unfortunately some people do not learn
This is not the first forum that JR has had problems with.
He will probably take his ball and play else where of course blaming Avalon for persecuting--not understanding,attacking, being disrespectful to him.

I dont pity him but I do feel sorry that he can not handle normal debate without the attitude he displayed here to quite a few.

Chris

Oh well no doubt that is the right decision now taken.
ch

Bill Ryan

22nd September 2016, 22:09

.
I don't normally do this, but on this occasion I think it may be healing (just a little!) to share this message I wrote to jimrich by e-mail.

Dear Jim,

We appreciate your passion for some of your views, but the way you launched, very unkindly, unwisely, and insensitively, into some of the forum's most well-respected and longstanding members, shows us that you do not really belong well in this community.

Therefore the moderators have unanimously decided to close your account.

I don't want to (and will not) engage in a debate with you on this particular topic. I've never been a parent, but have once been a child. I do know from your demeanor that you have been extremely judgmental of individuals none of whom you know.

Stephen Covey's own wise words come to mind (The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People (https://www.stephencovey.com/7habits/7habits.php)):

Seek first to understand, then to be understood.

With our best wishes ~ Bill Ryan and the Avalon Staff Team

TargeT

22nd September 2016, 22:36

How likely is it that something like this situation would make a difference for someone. It seems that he was unaware of the total message being conveyed or the (for lack of a better word) "tone" he was communicating with (or was aware & didn't care) and perhaps considered it a reasonable methodology.

Honestly curious,
I don't think there's much chance.. (lead a horse to water, can't make it drink.. etc & if I was that horse I'd probably dig my heels in and refuse to drink.. for no good reason, ha!)

I wish it were otherwise, but I know how damn hard it was for me to gain the little bit of self awareness I have now (and it was basically me allowing myself to see whats there).. Maybe I'm just exceptionally stubborn and there's hope after all.

Czarek

23rd September 2016, 00:01

I posted this some time ago.

Action has meaning only in relationship and without understanding relationship, action on any level will only breed conflict. The understanding of relationship is infinitely more important than the search for any plan of action.
J.Krishnamurti

Parenthood is a relationship. Only two-way connection with our child can secure it. So honor that relationship with all of your interactions with them...For a child to be open to being parented by an adult, he must be actively attaching to that adult, be wanting contact and closeness with him...so the secret of parenting is not in what a parent does but rather who the parent is to a child. It is not a lack of love or of parenting know how but the erosion of the attachment context that makes our parenting ineffective. And the chief and most damaging of the competing attachments that undermine parenting authority and parental love is the increasing bonding of our children with their peers. Children cannot be oriented to both adults and other children simultaneously. One CANNOT follow two sets of conflicting directions at the same time. I'm not saying that children should have no friends. In an adult oriented cultures, where the guiding principles and values are those of the more mature generation, kids attach to each other without losing thier bearings or rejecting the guidance of their parents. Today in our western society, that is no longer the case. Bonds among friends have come to replace relationships with adults as children's primary sources of orientation. Absolutely missing in peer relationships are unconditional love and acceptance, the desire to nurture, the ability to extend oneself for the sake of the other, the willingness to to sacrifice for the growth and development of the other. Some hard facts: with those children who attempt suicide, the key trigger for the majority was how they were being treated by their peers, not their parents. The more peers matter, the more children are devasted by the insensitive relating of their peers, by failing to fit in, by perceived rejection or ostracization. The effects of peer orientation are most obvious in the teenager, but its early signs are visible by the second or third grade.......
more in "hold on to your kids, why parents need to matter more than peers" by Gordon neufeld and gabor mate

Ewan

23rd September 2016, 09:08

I thought a few day ago that jim's spiritual learning had been thoroughly co-opted by his ego to the extent that the ego was running everything and he was entirely unaware of the takeover.

greybeard

23rd September 2016, 09:16

I think that all who posted in response to JR did so in a mature, balanced, level headed way---No one lost it, so to speak, in spite of some extreme, provoking, comments from him.
All are a credit to good parenting no doubt--smiling broadly.
Certainly Avalon members showed a compassion beyond the norm for his over the top posts.

Chris

Sueanne47

23rd September 2016, 12:51

Living with someone like that not only makes himself severely depressed....everyone around him takes that on as well. Maybe he was possessed by a dark spirit?

Baby Steps

23rd September 2016, 13:01

sometimes when a wounded soul finally resolves to start searching for healing, they find the right people. But the language they feel comfortable with is projecting THEM as the TEACHER and the HEALER/HELPER as the pupil.

I have a friend like this. Totally un resolved parental abuse issues. He is very scary and intimidating. He cannot take a step back and look at himself. People are too scared to tell him the truth.

That's a hard and lonely path.

Sueanne47

23rd September 2016, 13:16

They will both pass that on to the next incarnation though. How *strong* their ego is, that it ignores help, healing and peace when it is for their benefit to listen.

lake

23rd September 2016, 16:01

Sueanne47

23rd September 2016, 16:18

Thank you Lake, but if the person is insulting and doesnt respect politeness to the great people here...should we be subjected to that?

Flash

23rd September 2016, 16:25

I didn't get involved in this thread but I did read it. My lack of participation was due to two points, namely:
I have no children.
I dislike drama.

I would agree with Ewan:

I thought a few day ago that jim's spiritual learning had been thoroughly co-opted by his ego to the extent that the ego was running everything and he was entirely unaware of the takeover.

My thought now is that I would like to see a more limited debate system allowed for this type of interaction!
Let me expound.

Rather than un-subcribe a member....lets have a cage fight? No stop it I'm trying (and failing) to be funny! Not a cage fight but a 'for members only to view' thread. This in my mind would work along this method.

Lets say that I have a point of view which is not held in regard by the many.......actually I do. It is that 'love' is of a selfish nature so therefore the concept of the mime 'love and light' is a 'dark path'.
When ever I bring this up it is normally ignored totally.
To be able to have a debate with a single member would help me on this point and I think it would have helped jimrich with this thread.

So a thread is started (for members only) where it is only one on one....although I'm sure in the background there would be many research assistants via PM's for both debaters.......and these two have 10 posts each, one by one, to set their point of view and make any rebuttals, across 10 days.
Day one, I post my thoughts on an issue (which may have lead us to having this limited debate) then must wait for a SINGLE reply from a SINGLE member, posted on day one....then its my turn to respond on day two and to have my 'opponent' post their thoughts / research etc....no likes, no thanks, just a debate!

And I would 'go first' and have a limited access conversation with another member regarding my consideration that 'love' is selfish!

I do not think that this is off topic....I can only consider that this type of thing (maybe not in the way put) could only help each of us to learn more?
I would love to know why I am wrong (regarding my stance on 'love').......and maybe jimrich would also have been able to benefit from such a limited debate which each must consider as they only have 10 posts?

just a thought

Edit to add:
Its like you could have put Sweety in a 'room' alone with lets say Herve and then I think Sweety would have learnt a great deal after the limited debate?

Don't we do these "10 posts over 10 days, no more" kinds of things with children? or in corporations when there is major conflicts to resolve? Or when we absolutely want everyone's input in a balanced way (shutting up the big talkers and pushing on the non talkers) for a precise project or for team building (in families or at work)?

Then, going further with that train or tought, why don't we confine members with disruptive behaviors to members threads only - like when you tell a kid to stand up against a wall for 5 minutes in order to reflect on his behavior?

You see, we are all adults here, and maybe we ought to have learned already how to behavre with each other, respect being a prime value.

If not, why should we play mommy and daddy - parenting - at the table during dinner (which Jimrich wanted us to play) or play the deparment manager who wants a better team or wants to resolve conflicts.

Sometimes, being sent away is also a good lesson

To tell the truth, if someone has not learned how to behave and be respectful by the time he is 78, there is a very little chance he will learned in the next ten years - as someone else said, he will come back with the same problems in order to resolve them, in a next life.

I would think quite differently if i had been dealing with a teenager or young adult who still need to learn from life and may need to process his impetuous youth, in other terms, who may have the ability to change and reflect.

lake

23rd September 2016, 16:35

Is this not the point at hand? Is this not the reason for 'us'?

What should one do with an awareness which is still held so tightly by limitation? To discard another for their not being immersed enough in others, can this be correct?

What are 'we'? Lets always throw another away when they are not in 'line' with 'our' considerations!

I am not defending jimrich here....its just that I consider another way may have been accessible to 'us' and therefore furthered jimrich?

greybeard

23rd September 2016, 16:51

Lake I see where you are coming from and up to a point I agree with you.
But!!! this is not recovery group forum and there are some Im sure.

JR and I had several PMs early on where I sugested it might be a good idea to be more tactful.
He challenged me and said I was actually warning him.
He called me out for miss spelling--I said Im dyslexic and had just come from a friends funeral--he said That dosnt help me none.

Eventually I got the impression he was trying to push or find my buttons/triggers on purpose
.
He is intelligent yet the number of times he misunderstood, he asked me if English was my first language--he went out of his way to be insulting.

He claimed to have been to AA then in the next breath said alcohol was never a problem.
He claimed to have been to all kinds of sharing recovery meetings including incest groups yet said the abuse he experienced was not physical.

There are people who get off on witnessing others pain--and they go to incest and abuse groups to get their fix.

He knew a lot about the spiritual teachings and quoted them--now if anyone is that into those deep teachings it automatically heals them.

Was he 78year old he claimed to be I have my doubts.

Now I could be wrong---I and others did try to help.

You have a good heart lake and I appreciate where you are coming from.

Best wishes
Chris

lake

23rd September 2016, 17:06

Thanks Chris
I have through this life been wrong about many many things, I have accepted harm as a normal interaction and done harm through lack of thought.
I try to be different now by my actions and thoughts but that doesn't always become the creation I wanted!
cheers mate

Pam

24th September 2016, 16:44

People on the forums here don't like fighting and arguing just for the sake of it, I've found.

I think, too, that there is a generational difference here. Older people who grew up with tremendous strictures and violence may not realize that one of the main social problems nowadays is things have swung too much the other way.

As a society we are currently dealing with too many kids and young adults who were always told they were the best the brightest and the most talented and never disciplined at all, in any way. So the message you preach, Jimrich, was clearly received by society a good thirty years ago and things swung too much in the other direction.

So like, where have you been?

Autumn, you are right on with your assessment. I am most definitely guilty of making the decision that my children would never suffer the verbal slammings that I received. They were praised for everything they attempted. If they played in sports or were in other activities other parents and teachers did the same thing. By the time my daughter was about 7 I could see that my good intentions were having negative results. My daughter couldn't perform any activity without wanting someone to watch her. She didn't push herself because everything she did was wonderful, at least that is the feedback she was getting. My daughter was self confident in areas where she really didn't have any reason to be. I began to modify my behavior, being more honest with her. I do think she suffered damage, though. I went way to far in the opposite direction of the way my father treated me.

You can see these kids, now as adult in the workplace. They expect to be praised for everything that they do. They want to go on being the center of the universe just like when they were kids. In the end I think I was better off then those kids at the other end of the spectrum. I never expected to be the center of attention, I never felt any employer to treat me with kid gloves and I felt the obligation to do a good days work, I can entertain myself and I am a good listener. It's not always easy finding balance in this world.

Sierra

24th September 2016, 19:13

I would agree with Ewan:

I thought a few day ago that jim's spiritual learning had been thoroughly co-opted by his ego to the extent that the ego was running everything and he was entirely unaware of the takeover.

Rather than un-subcribe a member....lets have a cage fight? No stop it I'm trying (and failing) to be funny! Not a cage fight but a 'for members only to view' thread. This in my mind would work along this method.

Lets say that I have a point of view which is not held in regard by the many.......actually I do. It is that 'love' is of a selfish nature so therefore the concept of the mime 'love and light' is a 'dark path'.

Lol!

Lake,

Have you tried starting a thread on "selfish love" in the Members Only section? I think you are perfectly capable of laying out a measured concept/thesis that would get thoughtful response from members. Starting with children's survival being dependent on parent's love (survival can really distort normal expression, lol), parent's love based on children's performance and contribution to parental ego, politician/rich cat wives hanging on, drug user dependencies, the list could be enormous.

But Jimrich, sweety, heh. The mods have only so much energy to volunteer, and the forum can take only so much fracas at times...

It makes a huge difference HOW a thread is started, does it kick emotions or thought into gear? Jimrich was coming from great pain, expressed outwardly in blame and shame, so no good result was ever going to come from his thread or stance.

Hervé

25th September 2016, 20:45

Well, there is "parenting"... but, you know...

... there is also "chidrening":

An elementary school has kids meditate instead of punishing them and the results are profound (http://thefreethoughtproject.com/school-sending-children-meditate/http://thefreethoughtproject.com/school-sending-children-meditate/)

John Vibes Free Thought Project (http://thefreethoughtproject.com/school-sending-children-meditate/http://thefreethoughtproject.com/school-sending-children-meditate/) Sun, 18 Sep 2016 20:49 UTC

https://www.sott.net/image/s17/345332/large/meditate.jpg (https://www.sott.net/image/s17/345332/full/meditate.jpg)

It was recently reported that Robert W. Coleman Elementary in West Baltimore will be taking a new and holistic approach to disciplining students. Instead of punishing them or sending them to the principal's office, administrators will now be sending children to "the mindful moment room" where they will be able to meditate and wind down.

The new policy has been in place for over a year, and in the time that the meditation room has been set up, there has actually been no suspensions throughout the entire year.

The program is an initiative organized by the Holistic Life Foundation, a Baltimore-based nonprofit organization committed to nurturing the wellness of children and adults in underserved communities.

Andres Gonzalez, one of the organizers of the project, says that children are even bringing home what they are learning to their families.
"That's how you stop the trickle-down effect, when Mom or Pops has a hard day and yells at the kids, and then the kids go to school and yell at their friends," he says. "We've had parents tell us, 'I came home the other day stressed out, and my daughter said, Hey, Mom, you need to sit down. I need to teach you how to breathe,'" Gonzalez said. (http://www.oprah.com/inspiration/Baltimore-City-Elementary-Meditation-With-Kids?FB=fb_omag_baltimore_elementary_meditation) There are many advantages to meditation, which are now being confirmed by scientific studies. We have learned through scientific research that meditation can relieve pain, enhance creativity, relieve stress and boost immune systems. In 1998, a breakthrough study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association, by a DR. Dean Ornish showed that meditation can actually reverse heart disease. This study lasted for over 5 years and involved various control groups that all had coronary artery disease, and only one of these groups practiced meditation. Amazingly the group that practiced meditation had actually managed to reverse the effects of the illness.

The consistent application of bringing one's attention to the present moment is key to any form of meditation. This means that nearly any experience can be meditative. A bike ride, a walk under the stars, writing poetry, or any practice that offers individual quiet time within your own heart and mind can be considered a form of meditation.

Over time, various teachers organized their specific meditation practices into cohesive styles and philosophies, each with its own instructions and insights. Around the 5th and 6th centuries BCE, Confucian and Taoist meditations appear in China, and Hindu, Jain, and Buddhist meditations developed in India.

These various schools of meditation taught different methods for remaining in the present moment, some involving the counting of breaths, contemplative thought, or repeating sacred words and sounds known as Mantras.

There are also different types of meditation positions. Some schools practice sitting cross-legged ("lotus" or "half lotus"), walking, or lying down meditation. You also may have noticed that certain traditions will feature symbolic hand gestures and positions during their meditation. These are known as mudras and are found in Hindu and Buddhist practices. People also meditate for different reasons. Most people would say that meditation can be a religious or spiritual experience, while others find it to be a helpful relaxation and anger management tool.

In this one Baltimore school, the powers of living in the present are coming to fruition.