Organ donation

[kirolak]

I wonder how others feel about this topic. . . I was approached by someone recently, & duly signed on for my organs to be harvested after my death. Intellectually, it seems to be the "right" thing to do - why waste good protein which could be put to use in aiding others?

Since then, I've had several mails inviting me to participate in various athletic activities (clearly to keep the organs in the best functioning condition possible :Angel:), as well as a series of lengthy questionnaires with "questionable" prizes to be won by completing them. I completed a few questionnaires but have opted out now, what a waste of time!

Anyway, for some reason not entirely clear to me, I've suddenly developed the feeling that donating organs is not something I am entirely comfortable with, after all.

I do not understand why; I will certainly no longer be needing little meat devices, & perhaps the next user will inherit some of my interests & take to a vegan lifestyle & the classical guitar :bigsmile: Apparently it is very common for this sort of influence to be carried over from donor to recipient.

Being a donor will require that I die in a hospital, while I had always envisioned dying at home, with mantras playing in the background :facepalm & my already-departed animal & human friends waiting for me on the other side with a welcome party :cake:

Am I being selfish & sentimental about my death? Probably. It could be painful & messy, & better undertaken in a clinical setting. . . I'd be interested to hear what others feel about this issue!

[norman]

I know at least 2 personal golden rules.

1) Never allow anyone other than yourself to take out an insurance policy on your life.

2) Never give hospitals and emergency services a reason to value your body more dead than alive.

[Eram]

There are three reasons that I do not wish my organs to have a second life.

One is my study of esoterics.
It is said that after physical death, you enter your second phase of this life cycle, which is to take place in the emotional world.
Watch the movie: "What dreams may come" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120889/) to get an idea of what that life might look like.
In the esoteric teachings, it is said that your consciousness stays partially connected to your physical body for a while, until the time that the physical body has dissolved. I think there are several ways how to interpret this, but my estimation is that the life in the emotional world will be hindered if some organs of you live on in someone els's body.

Two is that you physical body must be not completely dead, but only "brain dead" and there are many signs that this "brain dead" is in many cases not very dead at all.
Studies have shown that the body reacts to the extraction of organs in the same way as it would as if the operation was done on a life and awake person. Stress, shock, signs of pain even.
"Brain dead" might be an euphemistic terminology in this case.

Three is that there is a lot of money to be made with organ transplants and I don't think that I have to make elaborate arguments on a forum like this one to what sort of wrongdoings this all too often leads.
There are many witness accounts of family members who have declared that they felt that the person who was to be cut open for organ donation was not beyond hope of recovery. In some cases, an intervention by family has lead to a recovery of the patient that was only minutes away of being cut open for organ harvesting.


Taking these points into consideration, I don't think that organ transplants from life donors are the right way to go.
Perhaps we will be able to grow them some day. That would have my blessings.

[Ewan]

Well that has given me food for thought. As the recipient of a kidney that has given me a new lease of life it is difficult to be completely detached. Selfishly I am pleased I got the kidney, but I've since wondered quite frequently about the ethics of it in a larger scale than ego concerns.

I can't give you advice Kirolak, but a part of me certainly feels that it may not be the right thing to do despite the apparent altruistic nature of it from a certain perspective. Eram raises some good points.

[Eram]

Well that has given me food for thought. As the recipient of a kidney that has given me a new lease of life it is difficult to be completely detached. Selfishly I am pleased I got the kidney....


Perhaps this ascends all objections that I made in my first post.
It's pretty cool to be able to live on for a while longer with the help of a donated organ from another person.

My first point is of course pretty speculative and if true, it will be hard to tell how much the 2th phase of life will be hindered.
If only mildly (on occasion) then I would have no problem with it myself.

I would like to take the "for profit" part out of the equation though.
But that will be a dream for the far future if at all.

[ElfeMya]

Hey Kirolak,

I am an organ donor and I am very proud to be. Once I departed, the thought that some part of the physical form that I have happily been given to experience this lifetime are going to save a life or give a second on to somebody who is not done yet is actaullay comforting, it gives purpose into going through the death process.
I am also aminimalist and this helps not hanging onto anything material like the ego likes to and identify my "being" with the physical body. I don't consider I would " disappear" if my body was spread between other humans, I consider it a good way to keep on giving into the cycle of life.
As wehere I will be when I die, I don't care. If I happen to be in a facility equipped for the donations, good ! If not then so be it. This is not about creting yourself obligations in my sense, this is about how your death will be meaningful in a material way... maybe ;-)

Thanks for starting the conversation :-)

[kirolak]

[QUOTE

Two is that your physical body must be not completely dead, but only "brain dead" and there are many signs that this "brain dead" is in many cases not very dead at all.
Studies have shown that the body reacts to the extraction of organs in the same way as it would as if the operation was done on a life and awake person. Stress, shock, signs of pain even.

"Brain dead" might be an euphemistic terminology in this case. "


My own feelings or suspicions, entirely. . . do you perhaps have a link to these studies, please? Not that I don't believe you, it feels true.:heart:

Intuitively, I feel that I would never accept a donated organ . . . yet who am I to deny acess to anyone who may need one? I am in a quandary

[sheme]

When we are allowed to die in dignity -then they can ask my nearest and dearest if need be for some spare parts. However being the type of person that buys a second hand car then rides it into the ground, I intend to do much the same with my body.

[Swan]

[QUOTE

Two is that your physical body must be not completely dead, but only "brain dead" and there are many signs that this "brain dead" is in many cases not very dead at all.
Studies have shown that the body reacts to the extraction of organs in the same way as it would as if the operation was done on a life and awake person. Stress, shock, signs of pain even.

"Brain dead" might be an euphemistic terminology in this case. "


My own feelings or suspicions, entirely. . . do you perhaps have a link to these studies, please? Not that I don't believe you, it feels true.:heart:

Intuitively, I feel that I would never accept a donated organ . . . yet who am I to deny acess to anyone who may need one? I am in a quandary

If I remember correctly, a few studies are mentioned in this interview on The Richie Allen Show a couple of months ago.
VOjiYudTKu0

[raff]

Dear Kirolak, I remember reading I can't for the life of me remember where possibly from Robert Shapiro's books about how the body and the soul are still linked even after death (esoteric Buddhism is quite specific on the details of which "ruling" or responsible Buddhist divinity is in charge of the bardo experience of each soul)
The suggestion by the channelled material (much could be questioned about this medium but the concepts and their ramifications are quite fascinating) is that the body shouldn't be cremated but like many indigenous tribes left in an allocated above ground area to naturally decompose (sea burial is another modern option)
I find that these two practices (of the indigenous and esoteric buddhism) have a fascinating correlation.
It needs a deeper study to be sure.

[Eram]

do you perhaps have a link to these studies, please? Not that I don't believe you, it feels true.:heart:



I've got my information on organ donation and the problems involved from Gert Lodewick.
A Dutch investigator who's done a large amount on research concerning organ donation and specifically on the subject of the question of "is the donor really dead when they cut him open?".

I'm sure that his book has many links to actual studies that have been done, but I don't have it.
I only watched this youtube, but it is in Dutch, so it will not be of great value to you.

Crux of the matter is that organs cannot be harvested from a completely dead body.
Oxigen must still flow through the veins, so a beating heart is necessary.
Metabolism must also still be in function, otherwise the organs become unfit for donation immediately.
It is therefore impossible to speak of a dead person who is donating the organs.
It is scientific impossible to state that a brain dead, but still breathing (by eternal help) body is really dead.
Even the words "brain dead" are scientifically indemonstrable.

I think it takes only a little common sens to derive from these facts that there must be a gray area where lines are crossed and donors experience some of what happens to their physical body at the moment of extraction.

I know Gert mentions one particular case in the US where the victim of a traffic accident was declared brain dead and the extraction team was already on their way. Before the extraction took place, the victim regained consciousness and was able to express that he was aware of everything that was going on. He heard that they were going to get his organs and he was mad as hell, because he felt that he was not dead. Just unable to do anything about it.

Perhaps this evening, when I have some more time, I will watch the youtube again and write down all the key points that Gert Lodewick makes.

I'll post the youtube here anyway, for people who understand Dutch.

yTrsrgHpSLM

ps: I think that some google searches will come up with studies concerning brain dead and organ donation.

[Did You See Them]

Inner self is telling you your on a menu !

[kirolak]

Thank you, Raff. . . sorry this post seems to have been duplicated somehow :(

[Mod-edit: The duplicate thread is now merged with this one :) Hervé ]

[kirolak]

That is the sort of response, Ewan, that makes me think I should go ahead & donate after all. . .:) Would you mind sharing a little more? Did you find your personal taste s & interests influenced in any way after the transplant?

I don't mean to be morbid or intrusive, I just need the truth, if you are willing to share it. :happy dog: BTW, You are the sort of person I would be happy to leave a kidney or two!

[Ewan]

That is the sort of response, Ewan, that makes me think I should go ahead & donate after all. . .:) Would you mind sharing a little more? Did you find your personal taste s & interests influenced in any way after the transplant?

I don't mean to be morbid or intrusive, I just need the truth, if you are willing to share it. :happy dog: BTW, You are the sort of person I would be happy to leave a kidney or two!

No, I can't say I did. I may have got a glimpse of the ladies tastes as I had more than one strong image of a cottage in pale pastel blues and yellows, cat pictures all over the wall but other than that there is nothing to report. I told one of the nurses that but they didn't think anything of it, she said all the stories she had heard previously were linked to heart transplants. I would happily tell you more but there is really nothing to say pertaining to that aspect.

Returning to conciousness I remeber feeling really quite angry for the first couple of days followed by a few days feeling pretty depressed. But I do not believe that was connected to the donor, rather the violation of my body. I've been told it is a quite common occurence for people after major surgery. Interesting in itself but I don't believe it is related.

I don't think you're either morbid or intrusive, curiosity is completely natural imo. I really appreciate the last sentence, thank you. :)

[Mark (Star Mariner)]

Hi Kirolak, it's a very good question. In ancient times, really ancient times, there was a very different human reality that no longer exists today (at least in the west). There was never any need to transplant human organs to another, sick person, because a diseased or dysfunctional organ could be repaired or regenerated with techniques resembling what might be termed as psychic healing, enhanced particularly with crystals. In modern times we've lost this ability, or where it exists it is ignored (maybe supressed). Western Medicine only takes into account the physical components of health, having zero knowledge or even acknowledgement of the etheric, the spiritual, the causal, the emotional, or even the karmic. All these elements together, where imbalance is observed, can translate to a physical symptom. Western medicine attempts only to treat that physical symptom, a bit like trying to patch up an observed crack in the wall of a dam with frantic applications of mortar, without any knowledge of the water pressure behind that is creating, and continuing to create, cracks. Ancient healers addressed the cause, never the symptom. I think our methods today would seem crude and backward to them, perhaps even a perversion of natural law.

That said, I cannot deny the huge benefits of organ transplants. My own brother has had a kidney transplant that has prolonged his life considerably. The spiritual aspect of giving an organ to a person in need, as previously stated, is a tremendously good deed and a beautiful one. So I would not speak out against it. But in the main, it is not actually the most viable way to heal someone, given that true healing of the body, in the most natural and effective way, has sadly been lost. There can also be a kind of psychic link of the deceased person and the recipient of their tissue, because it is a blending of one's personal energies with another. At least to the deceased person that might not always be a desirable side effect.

[kirolak]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3267048/

This article addresses the question of Organ Donor Euthanasia. . .

[Cardillac]

as in the video Swan posted: organs are harvested from people who are still alive and breathing-

Larry

[kirolak]

Oh dear, the subtitles are also in Dutch! :)

[Arianda]

I am not an organ donor. Considering they must harvest my organs before I am truly dead....

Well, lets just say - no way.

[kirolak]

I am going to add a proviso to my Donation - I want to be fully anaethetised before they start harvesting! I hope I will have the presence of mind not to attach to the body as I go. . . I don't think I will have any strong feelings about what happens to it, but I am not a fan of pain.

[regnak]

Well you cannot sue them as you will be deceased and to be cut open and having organs taken while alive does not sound like fun.:sun:

[sheme]

On the third day he rose again." Three days post mortem- a soul connection to the body remains- this is what I believe, personally I think "they" are after DNA samples- we should all take much better care of our DNA and destroy what we can when we have finished with it, burn hair and nails, used tissues etc . perhaps that is why they say they can't recycle coffee cups- too much DNA to be had.

[CelineK]

there is a problem that I wish to approach here... organs from dead donors do not last as long as **living** ones, they generally fail after 5-10 years or so, while living ones double that life span. Somebody truly informed and needing a organ will choose that of a living donor. Just saying.

That is the main reason as why organ trafficking is a BOOMING business and the developing countries pay again the heavy price. Watch my doc trailer for more info. There also are 800,000 disappearing yearly in america (and 140,000 in the UK), many of those were chosen for either organ trafficking, sex and slave trade, and pedophilia networks. 200,000 never make it back home.

I do not condone organ donation, unless you wish to donate a kidney to a family member for example. There also are many problems with our food chain causing many diseases and which must be addressed first.

What we are seeing today is the serious sides effects of monetizing Life... Nature. Nothing will change overnight, but it surely is time to spread the word. :heart:

[amor]

My father was murdered in just this fashion in a north central FL hospital in 1989. Information which was not given to me until long after the fact showed that my father had signed an organ donation form. He had been having a series of strokes and to save him the horrors of a nursing home, I nursed him 24/7 for an entire year, hardly sleeping myself. He never had a single bed sore. Because he could not tolerate an internal catheter, I was perpetual nurse and laundress, constantly changing bedding and bathing him. To describe this would take too long. However, one night, his body temperature went COLD. We took him to hospital via ambulance. The presiding emergency room doctor told my mother that this was not something he could not recover from. He told her that if he stayed there they would remove his kidney. She, not making the connection, said, "But he does not have kidney trouble!" I was at death's door with exhaustion at 1.30 AM. The doctor said they would keep him over night to observe him. At 6 AM they called to say he was dead. We went to the embalming place which had just received his body. In the midst of horrible grief I noted he was bandaged from his sternum down, yet they said they had not started working on him yet. We were crying in grief when my father appeared before me in my mind's eye. His eyes were wide open, unlike in life. He was not feeling any emotions. Then he observed our grief and was pleased and surprised that we loved him so much. I would have swapped my life for his. My mother returned to the hospital to ask for his records and met two doctors in the elevator who were aware of my father's events that night. They seemed angry when they told her that my father had all his organs removed. My words, de-gutted like a fish. We went to California to be with my brother and his children. Both my mother and I had dreams the same night in which my father conveyed that his death was not natural. He asked my mother why we were away so long. In my dream, two nurses were fighting with my father who was trying to defend himself. One brought a laundry cart into his bathroom. This signified to me that something rotten was taking place. He was not aware when he signed as a donor that he would be murdered for his organs. The doctor in charge of that hospital had said to my mother that the next time he came there would be his last. I only learned this long after the fact.

This same person is director of a nearby nursing home. I learned that these places are slaughter houses, in keeping with the agenda of genocide of the elderly. A method used is to give Haldol to the patient without giving the counter-veiling medication to save the kidneys, thus inducing rapid kidney failure. The dose is so high that the patient is unable to speak. It disrupts the brain. On Friday I spoke with three patients who were in their right mind. On Monday, they were all dead. I spoke with the husband of one lady who wondered why his wife could not speak. That clued me in. I also told him the truth.

Possibly because my father's organs were inside someone else, his spirit did not depart earth. He appeared to my mother more than once in her mind's eye. She asked him whether he was in heaven or hell. He said, "Neither." His suit in which he had been buried was wet. Mummy told him that he smelled because he was decaying. We discovered that the vault he was in had a leak from the roof. When you die your donated organs should not hold you back on earth. If you have signed one of these Donation Forms. See a Lawyer immediately and Cancel it IN COURT otherwise it will not be recognized by the hospital.

[kirolak]

Thank you, Amor for the inside info. . .I am so sorry you, your father & your family, had such a terrible experience.

I know Samael Aun Weor also said that his body should not be disturbed at all for a number of days after his death (3 or 5?) as it took time for the spirit to detach fully, although he was a master of out of body travel during his life.

Was your Father all aware of life after death before he went, if I may ask?

[CelineK]

I do believe you, all hospitals are into the business of organ trafficking.


My father was murdered in just this fashion in a north central FL hospital in 1989. Information which was not given to me until long after the fact showed that my father had signed an organ donation form. He had been having a series of strokes and to save him the horrors of a nursing home, I nursed him 24/7 for an entire year, hardly sleeping myself. He never had a single bed sore. Because he could not tolerate an internal catheter, I was perpetual nurse and laundress, constantly changing bedding and bathing him. To describe this would take too long. However, one night, his body temperature went COLD. We took him to hospital via ambulance. The presiding emergency room doctor told my mother that this was not something he could not recover from. He told her that if he stayed there they would remove his kidney. She, not making the connection, said, "But he does not have kidney trouble!" I was at death's door with exhaustion at 1.30 AM. The doctor said they would keep him over night to observe him. At 6 AM they called to say he was dead. We went to the embalming place which had just received his body. In the midst of horrible grief I noted he was bandaged from his sternum down, yet they said they had not started working on him yet. We were crying in grief when my father appeared before me in my mind's eye. His eyes were wide open, unlike in life. He was not feeling any emotions. Then he observed our grief and was pleased and surprised that we loved him so much. I would have swapped my life for his. My mother returned to the hospital to ask for his records and met two doctors in the elevator who were aware of my father's events that night. They seemed angry when they told her that my father had all his organs removed. My words, de-gutted like a fish. We went to California to be with my brother and his children. Both my mother and I had dreams the same night in which my father conveyed that his death was not natural. He asked my mother why we were away so long. In my dream, two nurses were fighting with my father who was trying to defend himself. One brought a laundry cart into his bathroom. This signified to me that something rotten was taking place. He was not aware when he signed as a donor that he would be murdered for his organs. The doctor in charge of that hospital had said to my mother that the next time he came there would be his last. I only learned this long after the fact.

This same person is director of a nearby nursing home. I learned that these places are slaughter houses, in keeping with the agenda of genocide of the elderly. A method used is to give Haldol to the patient without giving the counter-veiling medication to save the kidneys, thus inducing rapid kidney failure. The dose is so high that the patient is unable to speak. It disrupts the brain. On Friday I spoke with three patients who were in their right mind. On Monday, they were all dead. I spoke with the husband of one lady who wondered why his wife could not speak. That clued me in. I also told him the truth.

Possibly because my father's organs were inside someone else, his spirit did not depart earth. He appeared to my mother more than once in her mind's eye. She asked him whether he was in heaven or hell. He said, "Neither." His suit in which he had been buried was wet. Mummy told him that he smelled because he was decaying. We discovered that the vault he was in had a leak from the roof. When you die your donated organs should not hold you back on earth. If you have signed one of these Donation Forms. See a Lawyer immediately and Cancel it IN COURT otherwise it will not be recognized by the hospital.

[amor]

My father in his earlier life was once a lay preacher for the Methodist Church. I recall him kneeling at his bedside praying in the morning and at night, I assume this to be a Methodist practice. At the age of 6, we migrated to the USA and the pace of life changed for all of us. I hope my posting helps many people to save their lives and those of their loved ones.

[Iloveyou]

Many thanks for this important topic and the contributions, especially for the critical ones. I personally would never, never donate an organ nor demand/accept one from a donor for all the reasons that are expressed above, plus I can kind of relate to the horrors of being cut open while still alive, although 'braindead'. I think this state/term has just been invented to enable the organ-trafficking industry.

In many countries (Germany for example, and in yours as well) you have to sign on and to declare explicitly, if you want to be a donor. If you don't or have even never thought of that, you aren't. Period. In other countries (like mine, Austria) it's cunningly the other way round. There you have to object to be orgon donor and to state your will formally with a certain organisation. If you don't, you're a donor automatically. And most people don't even know about that.

Something in that whole topic terrifies me. I'm sorry, kirolak, I don't want to spread fear, but if you asked me I'd say: think again.

[Ewan]

Ok, time for me to add more. I really appreciate the latest contributions and the food for thought they provide but it seems, like almost everything, we just can't know the answers to these questions.

Around 2004, working in my garden in north Thailand a thought ran through my mind which brought about a sudden cessation of all mental activity. I stood and stared at the mountains on the horizon in complete silence.

Then, a voice in my head, (I understand why people call it that, we hear an internal voice). Really it is just like any other thought you have but this one was not generated in the usual fashion, it was interjected, inserted, sent. Who knows how to explain this better?

It simply said "Go back to England." It wasn't my usual internal dialogue voice. In its brevity it almost sounded like a command. The odd thing was the decision to return to England had largely been already decided, money was running low and a child had just been, or was just about to be, born. So for the longest time I would ponder, on and off, about what it all meant. Why was I told, advised, to return to England?

Several years past, none of them in good health, before the final ambulance trip to hospital and to discover I was suffering catastrophic kidney failure. I came close to a heart attack that night I had such high potassium levels in my body. The oft described crushing chest symptom, it felt like an elephant was sat upon me. After a couple of years of dialysis a phone call came at 11'o' clock at night saying they had found me a kidney. I could barely comprehend the news, I was in a state of shock, mixed emotions. I was delighted and scared. I felt like I'd won the lottery, then immdeiately felt contrite as someone had died in order to present this gift to me; and yes, that is how I viewed it, and still do today, a gift - for which I am eternally grateful to have received.

(If I'd had the means to stay in Thailand I would have most likely died).

I rang my good friend who had remarkable talents beyond her body in the mental fields. I just asked her to look after me. After all said and done, now back home, she came to see me and we talked. She told me she had 'assisted' in the operation. Her word, not mine. Assisted! She went on to say, "You know I think this was all meant to happen, it was so easy to find you and everything was so straightforward." Later that day I recalled the unusual voice/thought. "Go back to England".

Lest anyone doubts my friends abilities. Recently, with my mother dying in hospital, I spotted her (my friend) coming in the school gates and stopped to one side to talk with her. I began to tell her about my mother and she nodded and smiled, I didn't get to finish - she already knew. She told me to tell her it is alright to go now. After her death she told me she was fine though some family still need to let her go.

So, is organ transplant good or bad. I think it must be like pretty much everything else. It has the power to do good and it can also be abused. What is the intention. To help someone, or to profit.

As an aside, interestingly for me. My mysterious advisor did not seem to know all, see all. Why tell me to go back to England when it was inevitable I return anyway. It appears whatever the source of that message they had their own limited perspectives.

[CelineK]

Ewan, yes organ donations could be used for good... the problem is the system itself that exploits just anything.

Flaws are embedded in the premise, and that is precisely why we get more negative than positive in the world.... until... we change the premise.


So, is organ transplant good or bad. I think it must be like pretty much everything else. It has the power to do good and it can also be abused. What is the intention. To help someone, or to profit.

[lake]

These are just some posts taken from the OLD David Icke forum …. This forum of over 5.8 Million posts was removed from view by the Ickes the end of February 2020.
It was not hacked or lost as the database still exists. <<<< I know this for a fact.

These I saved from a thread about Organ Donation.
Make of the information as you will.

~~~~

Prior to 1968 a person was declared dead only after their breathing and heart stopped for a determinate period of time.

The current terminology "Brain Death" was unheard of.
When surgeons realized they had the capability of taking organs from one seemingly “close to death” person and implanting them into another person to keep the recipient alive longer, a "Pandora’s Box" was opened.

In the beginning, through trial and error, they discovered it was not possible to perform this "miraculous" surgery with organs taken from someone truly dead, even if the donor was without circulation for merely a few minutes, because organ damage occurs within a very brief time after circulation stops.

To justify their experimental procedures it was necessary for them to come up with a solution which is how the term "BrainDeath" was contrived.

Much is being done to get your organs.
For an organ to be suitable for transplantation; it must be healthy and it must come from a living person.
Once DBD (Donation After Brain Death) or DCD (Donation After Cardiac Death) has been verified and permission extracted from distraught family members (in cases where relatives cannot be located the often now makes the determination on our behalf) the "organ donor" undergoes hours, sometimes days, of torturous treatment utilized to protect and preserve the body-container of "spare parts!"

The "organ donor" is forced to endure the excruciating painful and ongoing chemical treatment in preparation for organ excising.

Literally the "donor" is now an organ warehouse and used for the sole purpose of organ preservation until a compatible recipient can be located.

Donation after circulatory death (DCD) can be performed on neurologically intact donors who do not fulfill neurologic or brain death criteria before circulatory arrest. This commentary focuses on the most controversial donor-related issues anticipated from mandatory implementation of DCD for imminent or cardiac death in hospitals across the USA.

The truth of the horrific treatment and DEATH OF THE "DONOR"
Organ removal is performed while the patient is given only a paralyzing agent but no anesthetic!

Multi-organ excision, on the average, takes three to four hours of operating during which time the heart is beating, the blood pressure is normal and respiration is occurring albeit the patient is on a ventilator. Each organ is cut out until finally the beating heart is stopped, a moment before removal.

It is well documented the heart rate and blood pressure go up when the incision is made. This is the very response the anesthesiologist often observes in everyday surgery when the anesthetic is insufficient. But, as stated below, organ donors are not anesthetized.

There are growing numbers of protesters among and anesthesiologists, who react strongly to the movements of the supposed "corpse." These movements are sometimes so violent it makes it impossible to continue the taking of organs. Resulting from their personal experiences and attestations, many in the medical profession have removed themselves from this program altogether.

New York hospitals are routinely 'harvesting' organs from patients before they're even dead, an explosive lawsuit is claiming.

The suit accuses transplant non-profit The New York Organ Donor Network of bullying doctors into declaring patients brain dead when they are still alive.

Plaintiff, Patrick McMahon, 50, reckons one in five are showing signs of brain activity when surgeons declare them dead and start hacking out their body parts.

'They're playing God,' said McMahon, a former transplant coordinator who claims he was fired just four months into the role for speaking out about the practice.
He said that the donor network makes 'millions and millions' from selling the organs they obtain to hospitals and to insurance companies for transplants.
'Hearts, lungs, kidneys, joints, bones, skin grafts, intestines, valves, eyes -- it's all big money.'

The Air Force Combat veteran and former nurse added that financially strained hospitals are easily influenced to declare a patient brain dead because they're keen to free up bed space.

The lawsuit, filed in Manhattan Supreme Court in 2012, cites a 19-year-old car crash victim who was still struggling to breathe and showing signs of brain activity when doctors gave the green light for his organs to be harvested.

Network officials including director Michael Goldstein allegedly bullied Nassau University Medical Center staff into declaring the teen dead, stating during a conference call: 'This kid is dead, you got that?'
But McMahon said he believed the 19-year-old could have recovered.

The lawsuit cites three other examples of patients who were still clinging to life when doctors gave a 'note' - an official declaration by a hospital that a patient is brain dead, which, as well as consent from next of kin, is required before a transplant can take place.

The suit claims that a man was admitted to Kings County Hospital in Brooklyn, a month later, again showing brain activity.

It claims McMahon protested but was blown off by hospital and donor network staff, and the man was declared brain dead and his organs harvested.

In November 2011, a woman admitted to Staten Island University Hospital after a drug overdose was declared brain dead and her organs were about to be harvested when McMahon noticed that she was being given 'a paralyzing anesthetic' because her body was still jerking.
'She was having brain function when they were cutting into her on the table,' McMahon told MailOnline.
'He had given her a paralyser and there's no reason to give someone who is dead a paralyser.'
He said he confronted the person who gave it to her and he was speechless.
'Finally he said he was told to do it because while they were cutting her chest open she was moving her chest around.
And a paralyzer only paralyses you, it does nothing for the pain,' he said.
McMahon added that surgeons 'took everything' with regards to body parts.
'They took her eyes, her joints. She was right there when I was having the conversation. They were inserting the plastic bones where the real ones had been.'

According to the lawsuit, when McMahon probed further on the disturbing case another network employee told hospital staff he was 'an untrained troublemaker with a history of raising frivolous issues and questions.'

McMahon added that staff members who collect the most organs throughout the year qualify for a Christmas bonus.
'If counselors do well by getting a lot of organs they are given a bonus in December,' he said.

The veteran - who worked at the donor network between July and November - said there are about 30-40 staff who are out in the field, going to hospitals and trying to get signatures and donations.

Estimated U.S. Average Billed Charges Per Transplant: Heart $1,000,000 Double Lung: $800,000 Liver: $580,000 Kidney: $275,000

More than 123,000 people are on waiting lists for organ transplants in the United States, 100,000 of whom are waiting for new kidneys. Yet the need for healthy organs far outpaces donations. Only 28,000 transplants were completed in the last year, according to the 2014 national data from the U.S. Organ Procurement and Transplantation Network.

Because organ donors are often alive when their organs are harvested, the community should not require donors to be declared dead, but instead adopt more “honest” moral criteria that allow the harvesting of organs from “dying” or “severely injured” patients, with proper consent, three leading experts have argued.

This approach, they say, would avoid the “pseudo-objective” claim that a donor is “really dead,” which is often based upon purely ideological definitions of death designed to expand the organ donor pool, and would allow organ harvesters to be more honest with the public, as well as ensure that donors don’t feel pain during the harvesting process.

The chilling comments were offered by Doctor Neil Lazar, director of the medical-surgical intensive care unit at Toronto General Hospital, Dr. Maxwell J. Smith of the University of Toronto, and David Rodriguez-Arias of Universidad del Pais Vasco in Spain, at a U.S. bioethics conference in October and published in a recent paper in the American Journal of Bioethics.
“Because there is a general assumption that dead individuals cannot be harmed, veneration of the dead-donor rule is dangerously misleading,” they write.
“Ultimately, what is important for the protection and respect of potential donors is not to have a death certificate signed, but rather to be certain they are beyond suffering and to guarantee that their autonomy is respected.”

Instead of the so-called Dead Donor Rule (DDR), the authors propose that donors should be “protected from harm” (i.e given anesthesia so that they cannot feel pain during the donation process), that informed consent should be obtained, and that society should be “fully informed of the inherently debatable nature of any criterion to declare death.”

The doctors note that developing the criteria for so-called “brain death,” which is often used by doctors to declare death before organ donation, was an “ideological strategy” aimed at increasing the donor pool that has been found to be “empirically and theoretically flawed.” They also criticize the latest attempts to create new, even looser definitions of death, such as circulatory death, which they argue amount to simply “pretending” that the patient is dead in order to get his organs.

Based on an interview in 2013 with Dr. Paul Byrne, 80-year-old neonatologist blowing the whistle on the dark side of hospitals, it became clear that the concept of "brain death" is a complete fabrication conjured up for the sole purpose of legitimizing the murder of living people in order to harvest their organs.
These people (who often end up in hospitals as a result of car accidents or drug overdoses or the like) are given paralysis drugs during organ removal -- BUT NO ANESTHESIA!!!

Medical staff are literally cleaving open the chests of these innocent people and tearing out their organs, one by one, leaving the heart for last, after which point they are, of course, dead.

It's wakey wakey time people.This is no joke.

If you do not want to be tortured to death by medical sadists, SAY NO TO ORGAN DONATION! Evil is still evil by any other name.

A special thanks to Sandra Tsai for making us aware of pending lawsuits & information.

~~~~

I've just been reading about this and I'm so shocked- I had absolutely no clue about it- so thought I'd share the info on here.

It's literally like something out of a horror sci-fi movie.

I just presumed, as you do, that if you'd agreed to be a donor (or your family agree on your behalf), then after you'd died they would remove the organs, pack them with ice or whatever and that's how it went.

Well, no!!

They have to keep you alive in order to remove the organs- but because you've been pronounced medically dead (brain stem dead) they don't have to use any anaesthesia- they just inject a muscle relaxant to ensure you don't move!! Once the heart has been removed then you're obviously dead, but it needs to keep beating up to the point of removal.

So what are you giving up when you agree to organ donation (or don't specifically elect to 'opt out' as in Wales)? Your organs, of course—but also much more. You’re also giving up your right to informed consent. Doctors don’t have to tell you or your relatives what they will do to your body during an organ harvest operation because you’ll be dead, with no legal rights.

e.g., This linked article tells about people who are declared dead but still have enough brain function to feel pain: http://www.jbbardot.com/lose-sign-or...card-shocking/

http://www.hangthebankers.com/why-yo...n-organ-donor/

~~~~

Stephen Thorpe, then 17, was placed in a medically-induced coma following a multi-car pileup that had already taken the life of his friend Matthew, who was driving the vehicle.

Although a team of four physicians insisted that his son was “brain-dead” following the wreck, Thorpe’s father enlisted the help of a general practitioner and a neurologist, who demonstrated that his son still had brain wave activity. The doctors agreed to bring him out of the coma, and five weeks later Thorpe left the hospital, having almost completely recovered.

Today, the 21-year-old with “brain damage” is studying accounting at a local university.

In 2011, the Quebec Hospital Sainte Croix de Drummondville sought permission to extract the eyes of a patient who had choked on hospital food in the absence of a nurse, claiming she was “brain dead.” After the family demanded proof from physicians of her alleged condition, she regained consciousness, and recovered most of her faculties. The family declared its intention to sue the hospital.

In 2008, a 45-year-old Frenchman revived on the operating table as doctors prepared to “harvest” his organs for donation, following cardiac arrest. In the subsequent investigation by the hospital’s ethics committee, a number of doctors admitted that such cases, while rare, were well known to them.

That same year, a “brain dead” 21-year-old American, Zack Dunlap, was about to have his organs harvested when his two sisters, both nurses, decided to test the hospital’s theory that his brain was no longer functioning. Family members poked his feet with a knife and dug their fingernails under his nails, provoking strong reactions by Dunlap and proving he was conscious. He recovered completely. He later related that he was conscious and aware as doctors discussed harvesting his organs in his presence.

~~~~

So what drove the Harvard Ad Hoc Committee to turn back the calendar and construct a lower standard for death? To a growing number of scientific critics it appears that the committee was fixated on freeing up human organs for transplant.

...Today the transplant industry is a $20 billion per year business.

...The only people who do not get a share of the transplant wealth are the most essential: the donors and their families. By law, they are the only ones who cannot be compensated.

...Organ transplants would be peripheral to the story of death if they were what the organ trade claimed them to be: the neat extraction of body parts from totally dead, unfeeling corpses. But it is more complicated and messier than that. The grisly facts compiled in this article are not an attempt to derail organ transplantation—an impossible task, given how entrenched the industry is—but knowledge that has been gained from the medical establishment’s obsession with recycling the bodies of people who are, in the words of Dr. Michael DeVita of the University of Pittsburgh’s Medical Center, only “pretty dead.”

...A brain-dead organ donor’s brain stem is also down—but we do not know, given the limitations of the Harvard criteria and their focus entirely on the brain stem, what is going on with the donor’s cerebral cortex or everything beyond the brain stem.

Anesthesiologists have been at the forefront of questioning the finality of brain death and whether beating-heart cadavers truly are unfeeling, unaware corpses. They have also begun wondering about what a “pretty dead” donor may experience during a three- to five-hour harvest sans anesthetic, and they are speaking out on the subject.

~~~~

SYRACUSE, NY, July 9, 2013 (LifeSiteNews.com) - A woman who was pronounced brain dead by doctors unexpectedly woke up just as her organs were about to be removed for transplant.

Doctors at St. Joseph's Hospital Health Center were called on the carpet by the state Health Department for not properly determining if Colleen S. Burns was actually dead before they sought permission from her family to harvest her organs and scheduled the procedure.

Burns, 41, of Syracuse, New York, was taken to hospital in October 2009 after a drug overdose.

Doctors believed she had suffered irreversible brain damage and was on the point of death, but it later came to light that she was in fact in a deep drug-induced coma.

~~~~

Compare this to how the ancient Egyptians cared for the dead, for example. I'm massively intrigued by some of these ancient rituals, and where the understanding for them came from... I absolutely do believe that they had a far higher knowledge and understanding of the transition from physical to spiritual, an utterly sacred event which would involve years of preparation.

The ancient Egyptians would carefully remove the internal organs of the DECEASED, treat them with a natron solution and place them into four separate canopic jars that would also have significant spiritual meaning. The organs that were treated and saved were the lungs, stomach, liver and intestines. The kidneys and the heart which were considered the “seat of intelligence and sentiment” were left in the body. Starting with the Fifth and Sixth Dynasty pyramids, these canopic jars were placed into a separate stone compartment of the burial chambers.

What did the ancients understand about the sanctity of this process, that we obviously do not??

~~~~

Gail A. Van Norman, a professor of anesthesiology and bioethics at the University of Washington, cites some disturbing cases.

In one, an anesthesiologist administered a drug to a BHC to treat an episode of tachycardia during a harvest. The donor began to breathe spontaneously just as the surgeon removed his liver. The anesthesiologist reviewed the donor’s chart and found that he had gasped at the end of an apnea test, but a neurosurgeon had declared him dead anyway.

In another case, a 30-year-old patient with severe head trauma was declared brain dead by two doctors. Preparations were made to excise his organs. The on-call anesthesiologist noted that the beating-heart cadaver was breathing spontaneously, but the declaring physicians said that because he was not going to recover he could be declared dead. The harvest proceeded over the objections of the anesthesiologist, who saw the donor move and react to the scalpel with hypertension that had to be treated. It was in vain since the proposed liver recipient died before he could get the organ, which went untransplanted.

And in a third instance, a young woman suffered seizures several hours after delivering her baby. A neurologist said it was a “catastrophic neurologic event,” and she was readied for harvest. At that time the anesthesiologist found that she had small yet reactive pupils, weak corneal reflexes, and a weak gag reflex. After treatment, “the patient coughed, grimaced, and moved all extremities.” She regained consciousness. She suffered significant neurologic deficits but was alert and oriented.

~~~~

The main point is how doctors are determining a patient's prognosis- obviously if you were actually dead, you'd be a useless candidate for organ donation. So the point is that to be a donor, you have to still be alive. Which means that you could very well be signing your own death warrant, by volunteering for donation.

I studied neuroscience and it's ridiculous to call a patient clinically dead just because their brain stem appears to be compromised- as the research shows, many many patients still have higher cortical activity and many subsequently recover. Many patients also subsequently report having been fully aware of everything going on around them- they were just unable to connect with their bodies to PROVE that they're still 'in there'.

That's the terrifying aspect- that you're conscious and aware but unable to prove it. And once you've been declared 'dead', even though you're actually not dead obviously because your body is still functioning and your heart is still beating etc., but once they say you're dead that's it- as long as your relatives consent, you'll be off for harvesting! With no anaesthetic!! But a muscle relaxant to stop you from thrashing around!!

I've read quite a few accounts of people who've worked in the field and say that knowing what they now know, in terms of just how thorough they are at stripping away everything they can, there's just no way they'd provide their consent for it.

It's about informed consent, and that's what this information's about- we don't like to think about it, but if you're informed of the realities then at least you can make an educated decision for yourself or another family member, instead of succumbing to emotional blackmail.

~~~~

"I found your article today very interesting," wrote Angie Romano. "I live just outside of Toledo, Ohio. One of my sisters is a surgical nurse. She told me several years ago she would never want any of her family members to be an organ donor after what she has seen. (We have a brother-in-law alive today because of a kidney transplant he received, so we totally understand the double-edged sword that this presents.) She said that the times when she had been in the surgery room during organ harvesting, she has seen patients in definite pain when the harvesting begins. She said you can see it on their faces and it is horrible. I don't know what the answer is, just that it is a difficult situation. My sister has since transferred to a different hospital where they do not do the same type of trauma level work as was done at the first hospital. It seems like it is a similar situation as hospice care. Another sister is a cardiac nurse. She explained to me how, even though morphine is given to relieve pain in a terminal patient, at some point the medical personnel know that the next dose of morphine will overwhelm the patient's respiratory system and they will die. But we give it to them anyway to keep them comfortable. Modern science is such a blessing, but it comes with so many new sets of moral issues."
 
In other words: brain "death" is not always death.

In fact, the bodies of brain-dead people -- known as "beating-heart cadavers" -- can heal wounds, fight infections, and respond to certain stimuli. Brain-dead pregnant women can gestate a baby. There have been at least twenty-two such documented cases. Healthy babies have been born to them (one pregnant woman was kept alive for 107 days to have her child).

Most people don't realize that "dead" donors are frequently kept on a ventilator so the organs remain fresh. Their hearts are often defibrillated. Their kidneys are treated. They urinate. Fluids are administered to avoid incipient diabetes. It is a new obsession, frets Dr. Michael DeVita of the University of Pittsburgh's Medical Center: recycling the bodies of people who (in his chilling words) are only "pretty dead."

This is very serious spiritual territory.

...And we need to remember one thing, stated by one of the greatest brain surgeons in history: all of the brain may be in the mind, but not all of the mind is in the brain.

~~~~

"Probably there is no form of torture more commonly inflicted upon the dying than that which is caused by administering stimulants. Such potions have the effect of drawing a departing spirit into its body with the force of a catapult, to remain and to suffer for sometime longer. Investigators of conditions beyond have heard many complaints of such treatment. When it is seen that death must inevitably ensue, let not selfish desire to keep a departing spirit a little longer prompt us to inflict such tortures upon it. The death chamber should be a place of the utmost quiet, a place of peace and of prayer, for at that time, and for three and one-half days after the last breath, the spirit is passing through a Gethsemane and needs all the assistance that can be given. The value of the life that has just been passed depends greatly upon conditions which then prevail about the body; yes even the conditions of its future life are influenced by our attitude during that time, so that if ever we were our brother's keeper in life, we are a thousand times more so at death.

Post-mortem examinations, embalming and cremation during the period mentioned, not only disturb the passing spirit mentally, but are productive of a certain amount of pain, for there is still a slight connection with the discarded vehicle. If sanitary laws require us to prevent decomposition while thus keeping the body for cremation, it may be packed in ice till the three and one-half days have passed. After that time the spirit will not suffer, no matter what happens to the body."
 
Rosicrucian Mysteries An Elementary Exposition of Their Secret Teachings
By Max Heindel

~~~~

So being classed as brain dead don't mean the physical body is actually dead!

[Icare]

I have just finished reading the whole thread, thank you for the food for thought.

The idea of still being able to help another person when I die has always appealed to me and I filled in the form to become an organ donor twice in the past. Those two times were years apart, and both times I just couldn't bring myself to go through with it. For some reason I have never felt any faith in the medical system and my inner voice kept stopping me from officially registering.

Now I'm glad I never went through with it. Those examples mentioned above are horrific and quite an eye-opener.

[Spiral]

If you live in the UK this means YOU


A new system for organ donation that will save hundreds of lives has come into law, with the Organ Donation (Deemed Consent) Bill receiving Royal Assent on 15 March. Royal Assent means the bill is now an act of parliament.

The Organ Donation Act will mean adults in England will be considered potential donors unless they chose to opt out or are excluded.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/opt-out-organ-donation-max-and-keira-s-bill-passed-into-law

As far as I know the only people aware of this are bikers, be aware they don't take organs from dead people .....

[janette]

This is horrific..I do remember listening to an interview of a lady whose was in an accident and classed as 'braindead' but he wasn't but the murdered him anyway. It only came light afterwards he would of survived and maybe lived a normal life. It's horrendous what these doctors who hold our lives in their hands and we now public trust them ,just what they are prepared to do for money ..sickening. Spiral thank you for the above post ,I had no idea about this law but I've now opted out on the nhs site ..phew.

[DNA]

These are just some posts taken from the OLD David Icke forum …. This forum of over 5.8 Million posts was removed from view by the Ickes the end of February 2020.
It was not hacked or lost as the database still exists. <<<< I know this for a fact.

These I saved from a thread about Organ Donation.
Make of the information as you will.

~~~~

Prior to 1968 a person was declared dead only after their breathing and heart stopped for a determinate period of time.

The current terminology "Brain Death" was unheard of.
When surgeons realized they had the capability of taking organs from one seemingly “close to death” person and implanting them into another person to keep the recipient alive longer, a "Pandora’s Box" was opened.

In the beginning, through trial and error, they discovered it was not possible to perform this "miraculous" surgery with organs taken from someone truly dead, even if the donor was without circulation for merely a few minutes, because organ damage occurs within a very brief time after circulation stops.

To justify their experimental procedures it was necessary for them to come up with a solution which is how the term "BrainDeath" was contrived.

Much is being done to get your organs.
For an organ to be suitable for transplantation; it must be healthy and it must come from a living person.
Once DBD (Donation After Brain Death) or DCD (Donation After Cardiac Death) has been verified and permission extracted from distraught family members (in cases where relatives cannot be located the often now makes the determination on our behalf) the "organ donor" undergoes hours, sometimes days, of torturous treatment utilized to protect and preserve the body-container of "spare parts!"

The "organ donor" is forced to endure the excruciating painful and ongoing chemical treatment in preparation for organ excising.

Literally the "donor" is now an organ warehouse and used for the sole purpose of organ preservation until a compatible recipient can be located.

Donation after circulatory death (DCD) can be performed on neurologically intact donors who do not fulfill neurologic or brain death criteria before circulatory arrest. This commentary focuses on the most controversial donor-related issues anticipated from mandatory implementation of DCD for imminent or cardiac death in hospitals across the USA.

The truth of the horrific treatment and DEATH OF THE "DONOR"
Organ removal is performed while the patient is given only a paralyzing agent but no anesthetic!

Multi-organ excision, on the average, takes three to four hours of operating during which time the heart is beating, the blood pressure is normal and respiration is occurring albeit the patient is on a ventilator. Each organ is cut out until finally the beating heart is stopped, a moment before removal.

It is well documented the heart rate and blood pressure go up when the incision is made. This is the very response the anesthesiologist often observes in everyday surgery when the anesthetic is insufficient. But, as stated below, organ donors are not anesthetized.

There are growing numbers of protesters among and anesthesiologists, who react strongly to the movements of the supposed "corpse." These movements are sometimes so violent it makes it impossible to continue the taking of organs. Resulting from their personal experiences and attestations, many in the medical profession have removed themselves from this program altogether.

New York hospitals are routinely 'harvesting' organs from patients before they're even dead, an explosive lawsuit is claiming.

The suit accuses transplant non-profit The New York Organ Donor Network of bullying doctors into declaring patients brain dead when they are still alive.

Plaintiff, Patrick McMahon, 50, reckons one in five are showing signs of brain activity when surgeons declare them dead and start hacking out their body parts.

'They're playing God,' said McMahon, a former transplant coordinator who claims he was fired just four months into the role for speaking out about the practice.
He said that the donor network makes 'millions and millions' from selling the organs they obtain to hospitals and to insurance companies for transplants.
'Hearts, lungs, kidneys, joints, bones, skin grafts, intestines, valves, eyes -- it's all big money.'

The Air Force Combat veteran and former nurse added that financially strained hospitals are easily influenced to declare a patient brain dead because they're keen to free up bed space.

The lawsuit, filed in Manhattan Supreme Court in 2012, cites a 19-year-old car crash victim who was still struggling to breathe and showing signs of brain activity when doctors gave the green light for his organs to be harvested.

Network officials including director Michael Goldstein allegedly bullied Nassau University Medical Center staff into declaring the teen dead, stating during a conference call: 'This kid is dead, you got that?'
But McMahon said he believed the 19-year-old could have recovered.

The lawsuit cites three other examples of patients who were still clinging to life when doctors gave a 'note' - an official declaration by a hospital that a patient is brain dead, which, as well as consent from next of kin, is required before a transplant can take place.

The suit claims that a man was admitted to Kings County Hospital in Brooklyn, a month later, again showing brain activity.

It claims McMahon protested but was blown off by hospital and donor network staff, and the man was declared brain dead and his organs harvested.

In November 2011, a woman admitted to Staten Island University Hospital after a drug overdose was declared brain dead and her organs were about to be harvested when McMahon noticed that she was being given 'a paralyzing anesthetic' because her body was still jerking.
'She was having brain function when they were cutting into her on the table,' McMahon told MailOnline.
'He had given her a paralyser and there's no reason to give someone who is dead a paralyser.'
He said he confronted the person who gave it to her and he was speechless.
'Finally he said he was told to do it because while they were cutting her chest open she was moving her chest around.
And a paralyzer only paralyses you, it does nothing for the pain,' he said.
McMahon added that surgeons 'took everything' with regards to body parts.
'They took her eyes, her joints. She was right there when I was having the conversation. They were inserting the plastic bones where the real ones had been.'

According to the lawsuit, when McMahon probed further on the disturbing case another network employee told hospital staff he was 'an untrained troublemaker with a history of raising frivolous issues and questions.'

McMahon added that staff members who collect the most organs throughout the year qualify for a Christmas bonus.
'If counselors do well by getting a lot of organs they are given a bonus in December,' he said.

The veteran - who worked at the donor network between July and November - said there are about 30-40 staff who are out in the field, going to hospitals and trying to get signatures and donations.

Estimated U.S. Average Billed Charges Per Transplant: Heart $1,000,000 Double Lung: $800,000 Liver: $580,000 Kidney: $275,000

More than 123,000 people are on waiting lists for organ transplants in the United States, 100,000 of whom are waiting for new kidneys. Yet the need for healthy organs far outpaces donations. Only 28,000 transplants were completed in the last year, according to the 2014 national data from the U.S. Organ Procurement and Transplantation Network.

Because organ donors are often alive when their organs are harvested, the community should not require donors to be declared dead, but instead adopt more “honest” moral criteria that allow the harvesting of organs from “dying” or “severely injured” patients, with proper consent, three leading experts have argued.

This approach, they say, would avoid the “pseudo-objective” claim that a donor is “really dead,” which is often based upon purely ideological definitions of death designed to expand the organ donor pool, and would allow organ harvesters to be more honest with the public, as well as ensure that donors don’t feel pain during the harvesting process.

The chilling comments were offered by Doctor Neil Lazar, director of the medical-surgical intensive care unit at Toronto General Hospital, Dr. Maxwell J. Smith of the University of Toronto, and David Rodriguez-Arias of Universidad del Pais Vasco in Spain, at a U.S. bioethics conference in October and published in a recent paper in the American Journal of Bioethics.
“Because there is a general assumption that dead individuals cannot be harmed, veneration of the dead-donor rule is dangerously misleading,” they write.
“Ultimately, what is important for the protection and respect of potential donors is not to have a death certificate signed, but rather to be certain they are beyond suffering and to guarantee that their autonomy is respected.”

Instead of the so-called Dead Donor Rule (DDR), the authors propose that donors should be “protected from harm” (i.e given anesthesia so that they cannot feel pain during the donation process), that informed consent should be obtained, and that society should be “fully informed of the inherently debatable nature of any criterion to declare death.”

The doctors note that developing the criteria for so-called “brain death,” which is often used by doctors to declare death before organ donation, was an “ideological strategy” aimed at increasing the donor pool that has been found to be “empirically and theoretically flawed.” They also criticize the latest attempts to create new, even looser definitions of death, such as circulatory death, which they argue amount to simply “pretending” that the patient is dead in order to get his organs.

Based on an interview in 2013 with Dr. Paul Byrne, 80-year-old neonatologist blowing the whistle on the dark side of hospitals, it became clear that the concept of "brain death" is a complete fabrication conjured up for the sole purpose of legitimizing the murder of living people in order to harvest their organs.
These people (who often end up in hospitals as a result of car accidents or drug overdoses or the like) are given paralysis drugs during organ removal -- BUT NO ANESTHESIA!!!

Medical staff are literally cleaving open the chests of these innocent people and tearing out their organs, one by one, leaving the heart for last, after which point they are, of course, dead.

It's wakey wakey time people.This is no joke.

If you do not want to be tortured to death by medical sadists, SAY NO TO ORGAN DONATION! Evil is still evil by any other name.

A special thanks to Sandra Tsai for making us aware of pending lawsuits & information.

~~~~

I've just been reading about this and I'm so shocked- I had absolutely no clue about it- so thought I'd share the info on here.

It's literally like something out of a horror sci-fi movie.

I just presumed, as you do, that if you'd agreed to be a donor (or your family agree on your behalf), then after you'd died they would remove the organs, pack them with ice or whatever and that's how it went.

Well, no!!

They have to keep you alive in order to remove the organs- but because you've been pronounced medically dead (brain stem dead) they don't have to use any anaesthesia- they just inject a muscle relaxant to ensure you don't move!! Once the heart has been removed then you're obviously dead, but it needs to keep beating up to the point of removal.

So what are you giving up when you agree to organ donation (or don't specifically elect to 'opt out' as in Wales)? Your organs, of course—but also much more. You’re also giving up your right to informed consent. Doctors don’t have to tell you or your relatives what they will do to your body during an organ harvest operation because you’ll be dead, with no legal rights.

e.g., This linked article tells about people who are declared dead but still have enough brain function to feel pain: http://www.jbbardot.com/lose-sign-or...card-shocking/

http://www.hangthebankers.com/why-yo...n-organ-donor/

~~~~

Stephen Thorpe, then 17, was placed in a medically-induced coma following a multi-car pileup that had already taken the life of his friend Matthew, who was driving the vehicle.

Although a team of four physicians insisted that his son was “brain-dead” following the wreck, Thorpe’s father enlisted the help of a general practitioner and a neurologist, who demonstrated that his son still had brain wave activity. The doctors agreed to bring him out of the coma, and five weeks later Thorpe left the hospital, having almost completely recovered.

Today, the 21-year-old with “brain damage” is studying accounting at a local university.

In 2011, the Quebec Hospital Sainte Croix de Drummondville sought permission to extract the eyes of a patient who had choked on hospital food in the absence of a nurse, claiming she was “brain dead.” After the family demanded proof from physicians of her alleged condition, she regained consciousness, and recovered most of her faculties. The family declared its intention to sue the hospital.

In 2008, a 45-year-old Frenchman revived on the operating table as doctors prepared to “harvest” his organs for donation, following cardiac arrest. In the subsequent investigation by the hospital’s ethics committee, a number of doctors admitted that such cases, while rare, were well known to them.

That same year, a “brain dead” 21-year-old American, Zack Dunlap, was about to have his organs harvested when his two sisters, both nurses, decided to test the hospital’s theory that his brain was no longer functioning. Family members poked his feet with a knife and dug their fingernails under his nails, provoking strong reactions by Dunlap and proving he was conscious. He recovered completely. He later related that he was conscious and aware as doctors discussed harvesting his organs in his presence.

~~~~

So what drove the Harvard Ad Hoc Committee to turn back the calendar and construct a lower standard for death? To a growing number of scientific critics it appears that the committee was fixated on freeing up human organs for transplant.

...Today the transplant industry is a $20 billion per year business.

...The only people who do not get a share of the transplant wealth are the most essential: the donors and their families. By law, they are the only ones who cannot be compensated.

...Organ transplants would be peripheral to the story of death if they were what the organ trade claimed them to be: the neat extraction of body parts from totally dead, unfeeling corpses. But it is more complicated and messier than that. The grisly facts compiled in this article are not an attempt to derail organ transplantation—an impossible task, given how entrenched the industry is—but knowledge that has been gained from the medical establishment’s obsession with recycling the bodies of people who are, in the words of Dr. Michael DeVita of the University of Pittsburgh’s Medical Center, only “pretty dead.”

...A brain-dead organ donor’s brain stem is also down—but we do not know, given the limitations of the Harvard criteria and their focus entirely on the brain stem, what is going on with the donor’s cerebral cortex or everything beyond the brain stem.

Anesthesiologists have been at the forefront of questioning the finality of brain death and whether beating-heart cadavers truly are unfeeling, unaware corpses. They have also begun wondering about what a “pretty dead” donor may experience during a three- to five-hour harvest sans anesthetic, and they are speaking out on the subject.

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SYRACUSE, NY, July 9, 2013 (LifeSiteNews.com) - A woman who was pronounced brain dead by doctors unexpectedly woke up just as her organs were about to be removed for transplant.

Doctors at St. Joseph's Hospital Health Center were called on the carpet by the state Health Department for not properly determining if Colleen S. Burns was actually dead before they sought permission from her family to harvest her organs and scheduled the procedure.

Burns, 41, of Syracuse, New York, was taken to hospital in October 2009 after a drug overdose.

Doctors believed she had suffered irreversible brain damage and was on the point of death, but it later came to light that she was in fact in a deep drug-induced coma.

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Compare this to how the ancient Egyptians cared for the dead, for example. I'm massively intrigued by some of these ancient rituals, and where the understanding for them came from... I absolutely do believe that they had a far higher knowledge and understanding of the transition from physical to spiritual, an utterly sacred event which would involve years of preparation.

The ancient Egyptians would carefully remove the internal organs of the DECEASED, treat them with a natron solution and place them into four separate canopic jars that would also have significant spiritual meaning. The organs that were treated and saved were the lungs, stomach, liver and intestines. The kidneys and the heart which were considered the “seat of intelligence and sentiment” were left in the body. Starting with the Fifth and Sixth Dynasty pyramids, these canopic jars were placed into a separate stone compartment of the burial chambers.

What did the ancients understand about the sanctity of this process, that we obviously do not??

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Gail A. Van Norman, a professor of anesthesiology and bioethics at the University of Washington, cites some disturbing cases.

In one, an anesthesiologist administered a drug to a BHC to treat an episode of tachycardia during a harvest. The donor began to breathe spontaneously just as the surgeon removed his liver. The anesthesiologist reviewed the donor’s chart and found that he had gasped at the end of an apnea test, but a neurosurgeon had declared him dead anyway.

In another case, a 30-year-old patient with severe head trauma was declared brain dead by two doctors. Preparations were made to excise his organs. The on-call anesthesiologist noted that the beating-heart cadaver was breathing spontaneously, but the declaring physicians said that because he was not going to recover he could be declared dead. The harvest proceeded over the objections of the anesthesiologist, who saw the donor move and react to the scalpel with hypertension that had to be treated. It was in vain since the proposed liver recipient died before he could get the organ, which went untransplanted.

And in a third instance, a young woman suffered seizures several hours after delivering her baby. A neurologist said it was a “catastrophic neurologic event,” and she was readied for harvest. At that time the anesthesiologist found that she had small yet reactive pupils, weak corneal reflexes, and a weak gag reflex. After treatment, “the patient coughed, grimaced, and moved all extremities.” She regained consciousness. She suffered significant neurologic deficits but was alert and oriented.

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The main point is how doctors are determining a patient's prognosis- obviously if you were actually dead, you'd be a useless candidate for organ donation. So the point is that to be a donor, you have to still be alive. Which means that you could very well be signing your own death warrant, by volunteering for donation.

I studied neuroscience and it's ridiculous to call a patient clinically dead just because their brain stem appears to be compromised- as the research shows, many many patients still have higher cortical activity and many subsequently recover. Many patients also subsequently report having been fully aware of everything going on around them- they were just unable to connect with their bodies to PROVE that they're still 'in there'.

That's the terrifying aspect- that you're conscious and aware but unable to prove it. And once you've been declared 'dead', even though you're actually not dead obviously because your body is still functioning and your heart is still beating etc., but once they say you're dead that's it- as long as your relatives consent, you'll be off for harvesting! With no anaesthetic!! But a muscle relaxant to stop you from thrashing around!!

I've read quite a few accounts of people who've worked in the field and say that knowing what they now know, in terms of just how thorough they are at stripping away everything they can, there's just no way they'd provide their consent for it.

It's about informed consent, and that's what this information's about- we don't like to think about it, but if you're informed of the realities then at least you can make an educated decision for yourself or another family member, instead of succumbing to emotional blackmail.

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"I found your article today very interesting," wrote Angie Romano. "I live just outside of Toledo, Ohio. One of my sisters is a surgical nurse. She told me several years ago she would never want any of her family members to be an organ donor after what she has seen. (We have a brother-in-law alive today because of a kidney transplant he received, so we totally understand the double-edged sword that this presents.) She said that the times when she had been in the surgery room during organ harvesting, she has seen patients in definite pain when the harvesting begins. She said you can see it on their faces and it is horrible. I don't know what the answer is, just that it is a difficult situation. My sister has since transferred to a different hospital where they do not do the same type of trauma level work as was done at the first hospital. It seems like it is a similar situation as hospice care. Another sister is a cardiac nurse. She explained to me how, even though morphine is given to relieve pain in a terminal patient, at some point the medical personnel know that the next dose of morphine will overwhelm the patient's respiratory system and they will die. But we give it to them anyway to keep them comfortable. Modern science is such a blessing, but it comes with so many new sets of moral issues."
 
In other words: brain "death" is not always death.

In fact, the bodies of brain-dead people -- known as "beating-heart cadavers" -- can heal wounds, fight infections, and respond to certain stimuli. Brain-dead pregnant women can gestate a baby. There have been at least twenty-two such documented cases. Healthy babies have been born to them (one pregnant woman was kept alive for 107 days to have her child).

Most people don't realize that "dead" donors are frequently kept on a ventilator so the organs remain fresh. Their hearts are often defibrillated. Their kidneys are treated. They urinate. Fluids are administered to avoid incipient diabetes. It is a new obsession, frets Dr. Michael DeVita of the University of Pittsburgh's Medical Center: recycling the bodies of people who (in his chilling words) are only "pretty dead."

This is very serious spiritual territory.

...And we need to remember one thing, stated by one of the greatest brain surgeons in history: all of the brain may be in the mind, but not all of the mind is in the brain.

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"Probably there is no form of torture more commonly inflicted upon the dying than that which is caused by administering stimulants. Such potions have the effect of drawing a departing spirit into its body with the force of a catapult, to remain and to suffer for sometime longer. Investigators of conditions beyond have heard many complaints of such treatment. When it is seen that death must inevitably ensue, let not selfish desire to keep a departing spirit a little longer prompt us to inflict such tortures upon it. The death chamber should be a place of the utmost quiet, a place of peace and of prayer, for at that time, and for three and one-half days after the last breath, the spirit is passing through a Gethsemane and needs all the assistance that can be given. The value of the life that has just been passed depends greatly upon conditions which then prevail about the body; yes even the conditions of its future life are influenced by our attitude during that time, so that if ever we were our brother's keeper in life, we are a thousand times more so at death.

Post-mortem examinations, embalming and cremation during the period mentioned, not only disturb the passing spirit mentally, but are productive of a certain amount of pain, for there is still a slight connection with the discarded vehicle. If sanitary laws require us to prevent decomposition while thus keeping the body for cremation, it may be packed in ice till the three and one-half days have passed. After that time the spirit will not suffer, no matter what happens to the body."
 
Rosicrucian Mysteries An Elementary Exposition of Their Secret Teachings
By Max Heindel

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So being classed as brain dead don't mean the physical body is actually dead!

This is a great post Lake. This is so full of very useful information. I was reading spirals thread on this very same thing happening in Ukraine when I remembered this thread but more specifically this post. This is a paradigm changer and from me there can be no greater compliment given. Thank you for taking the time to compile this.

[Sue (Ayt)]

This article appeared on reuters recently. Some comments appeared elsewhere by doctors suggesting that over-doses are some of the first to be declared brain-dead and harvesting candidates, and that they are alerted and prepared when OD's are coming in.

‘Horrifying’ mistake to take organs from a living person was averted, witnesses say
Published October 17, 2024

Natasha Miller says she was getting ready to do her job preserving donated organs for transplantation when the nurses wheeled the donor into the operating room.

She quickly realized something wasn’t right. Though the donor had been declared dead, he seemed to her very much alive.

“He was moving around — kind of thrashing. Like, moving, thrashing around on the bed,” Miller told NPR in an interview. “And then when we went over there, you could see he had tears coming down. He was crying visibly.”

The donor’s condition alarmed everyone in the operating room at Baptist Health hospital in Richmond, Ky., including the two doctors, who refused to participate in the organ retrieval, she says.

“The procuring surgeon, he was like, ‘I’m out of it. I don’t want to have anything to do with it,’ ” Miller says. “It was very chaotic. Everyone was just very upset.”

Miller says she overheard the case coordinator at the hospital for her employer, Kentucky Organ Donor Affiliates (KODA), call her supervisor for advice.

“So the coordinator calls the supervisor at the time. And she was saying that he was telling her that she needed to ‘find another doctor to do it’ – that, ‘We were going to do this case. She needs to find someone else,’ ” Miller says. “And she’s like, ‘There is no one else.’ She’s crying — the coordinator — because she’s getting yelled at.”

"Everybody's worst nightmare"

The organ retrieval was canceled. But some KODA workers say they later quit over the October 2021 incident, including another organ preservationist, Nyckoletta Martin.

“I’ve dedicated my entire life to organ donation and transplant. It’s very scary to me now that these things are allowed to happen and there’s not more in place to protect donors,” says Martin.

Martin was not assigned to the operating room that day, but she says she thought she might get drafted. So she started to review case notes from earlier in the day. She became alarmed when she read that the donor showed signs of life when doctors tried to examine his heart, she says.

“The donor had woken up during his procedure that morning for a cardiac catheterization. And he was thrashing around on the table,” Martin says.

Cardiac catheterization is performed on potential organ donors to evaluate whether the heart is healthy enough to go to a person in need of a new heart.

Martin says doctors sedated the patient when he woke up and plans to recover his organs proceeded.

KODA officials downplayed the incident afterwards, according to Martin. She was dismayed at that, she says.

“That’s everybody’s worst nightmare, right? Being alive during surgery and knowing that someone is going to cut you open and take your body parts out?” Martin says. “That’s horrifying.”

The patient

Donna Rhorer of Richmond, Kentucky, told NPR that her 36-year-old brother, Anthony Thomas “TJ” Hoover II, was the patient involved in the case. He was rushed to the hospital because of a drug overdose, she says.

Rhorer was at the hospital that day. She says she became concerned something wasn’t right when TJ appeared to open his eyes and look around as he was being wheeled from intensive care to the operating room.

“It was like it was his way of letting us know, you know, ‘Hey, I’m still here,’ ” Rhorer told NPR in an interview.

But Rhorer says she and other family members were told what they saw was just a common reflex. TJ Hoover now lives with Rhorer, and she serves as his legal guardian.

TJ Hoover danced with his sister, Donna, on her wedding day in May 2023 — more than a year after he was mistakenly declared dead.
Hoover Rhorer Family /
TJ Hoover danced with his sister, Donna, on her wedding day in May 2023 — more than a year after he was mistakenly declared dead.
The general outline of the incident was disclosed in September by a letter Nyckoletta Martin wrote to the House Energy and Commerce Committee, which held a hearing investigating organ procurement organizations. She later provided additional details about the case to NPR.

“Several of us that were employees needed to go to therapy. It took its toll on a lot of people, especially me,” Martin told NPR.

Investigations underway

The Kentucky state attorney general’s office wrote in a statement to NPR that investigators are “reviewing” the allegations.

The federal Health Resources and Services Administration (HRSA), which helps oversee organ procurement, said in a statement to NPR that the agency is “investigating these allegations.” And some people involved in the case told NPR they have answered questions from the Office of the Inspector General of the federal Department of Health and Human Services, though no federal official from that office has commented on the case.

Baptist Health Richmond, the Kentucky hospital where that incident allegedly occurred, told NPR in a statement:

“The safety of our patients is always our highest priority. We work closely with our patients and their families to ensure our patients’ wishes for organ donation are followed.”

More at link, including pictures and podcast:
https://www.wesa.fm/2024-10-17/horrifying-mistake-to-take-organs-from-a-living-person-was-averted-witnesses-say

[DNA]

https://www.infowars.com/posts/horrifying-rfk-exposes-hospitals-procuring-organs-from-patients-despite-showing-signs-of-life

RFK J is exposing the dirty little secret we knew all along. Organ harvesting from people very much alive. Do read this thread.
Good job to all who participated