United passenger forcibly removed from flight after refusing to give up seat [Archive]

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chancy

10th April 2017, 18:08

Hello Everyone:
Ya'll might want to rethink taking a united airline flight ever again! This is what happens to you on united airlines when you don't volunteer to give up your PAID SEAT.
I hope this fellow gets 20 million for these thugs going this to him. They knocked him out it appears. Not sure how but they apparently did.

Link to Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMTpvzJp4ps#t=44.765312

Link to Article:
https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/united-passenger-forcibly-removed-flight-refusing-give-seat-134930951.html

Article:
United passenger forcibly removed from flight after refusing to give up seat
[Yahoo News]
Christopher Wilson
Yahoo NewsApril 10, 2017

A United passenger was forcibly removed from a flight from Chicago to Louisville after he refused to voluntarily give up his seat.

Fellow passengers on the flight posted jarring videos late Sunday night of uniformed men dragging the man off of the flight after what United called an “overbook situation.”

“This is an upsetting event to all of us here at United,” said United CEO Oscar Munoz in a statement Monday afternoon. “I apologize for having to re-accommodate these customers. Our team is moving with a sense of urgency to work with the authorities and conduct our own detailed review of what happened. We are also reaching out to this passenger to talk directly with him to address and resolve this situation.”

Audra D. Bridges and Tyler Bridges posted video of the incident:

@united @FoxNews @CNN not a good way to treat a Doctor trying to get to work because they overbooked pic.twitter.com/sj9oHk94Ik

— Tyler Bridges (@Tyler_Bridges) April 9, 2017

Louisville resident Jayse Anspach posted an alternate angle of the scene:

@United overbook #flight3411 and decided to force random passengers off the plane. Here's how they did it: pic.twitter.com/QfefM8X2cW

— Jayse D. Anspach (@JayseDavid) April 10, 2017

“Flight 3411 from Chicago to Louisville was overbooked,” a United spokesperson told Yahoo News when asked about the incident. “After our team looked for volunteers, one customer refused to leave the aircraft voluntarily and law enforcement was asked to come to the gate.”

Bridges and Anspach gave similar accounts of the incident to the Louisville Courier-Journal and on Twitter: United had overbooked the flight and was looking for four volunteers to leave the plane in order to send four United crew members to Louisville. Passengers were allowed to board and United offered $800 to anyone who gave up their seat, but when there were no volunteers, United said a computer would randomly select four passengers. The man in the video claimed to be a doctor who had patients to see in the morning and refused to leave, at which point airport security dragged him off the plane.

The United Contract of Carriage lays out specific policies for passengers who are not allowed to board overbooked flights but doesn’t cite policy for removing passengers who are already seated on such flights.

The videos started a social media firestorm, the second in as many months for the airline. It drew criticism in March after refusing to allow two female passengers to board because they were wearing leggings. In an email statement, United told Yahoo Style that the travelers could not board because their pants “were not in compliance with dress code policy for company benefit travel.” According to the spokesperson, “There are different rules for these privileges because people are flying for free.” It also noted that regular-paying customers are welcome to wear leggings aboard its flights.

Bob

10th April 2017, 19:25

Flying United seems quite INSANE... of all the airlines reporting in January 2017, United holds the title of a DEATH during flight - https://www.transportation.gov/sites/dot.gov/files/docs/resources/individuals/aviation-consumer-protection/2017MarchATCR.pdf

United Airlines death during the flight 4 people. At least 2 injuries reported during the flight. (often times during turbulence injury is NOT REPORTED, which violates the FAA and DOT rules).

Of the 3 major airlines receiving the MOST complaints - (January 2017 statistic)

Note: "ENPLANEMENT" means, "To Board an Aircraft" verses DEPLANEMENT (forced exiting of an aircraft)

SOUTHWEST AIRLINES 87 complaints against 11,330,508 enplanements Average score of ISSUES: 0.77
AMERICAN AIRLINES 227 complaints against 11,066,648 enplanements Average score of ISSUES: 2.05
UNITED AIRLINES 174 complaints against 7,708,081 enplanements Average score of ISSUES: 2.26

FRONTIER AIRLINES 96 complaints against 1,219,665 enplanements Average score of ISSUES: 7.87

Frontier used to be good many many years ago until they were sold a couple times, then it went downhill. Frontier really isn't a 'major', but United is, and their ratio of enplanements to complaints sucks.. I absolutely HATE flying UNITED for any reason... although for low fares I have flown SouthWest, which obviously was a type of Russian Roulette.. (ugh)..

An airline has a right to FORCE ANY PASSENGER off the flight for any reason what-so-ever.. Failure to comply with the Captains orders can result is felony hindering of a flight crew.. (asinine I know but that is the rules that the Captain is the MASTER in Command, similarly to Ship carriage...) supposedly the FORCED DEPLANING (due to overbooking) means that the AIRLINE MUST within 1 hour for domestic flights provide compensation PLUS a replacement flight, although UNITED is very shoddy in compliance apparently.. the PASSENGER could very well be cited for violating the CAPTAIN's ORDERS...) Should a CAPTAIN make an exception for a DOCTOR with SURGERY scheduled in the MORNING - obviously, COMMON SENSE says YES, a CAPTAIN refusing to do such is in SERIOUS LACK of COMMON SENSE, and for that matter, SHOULD BE CITED for creating a situation of LIFE AND DEATH.. Clearly the PASSENGER being ALLOWED TO STAY ON THE PLANE was a better outcome and NO DOUBT a JURY will CITE the CAPTAIN and UNITED AIRLINES for compromising the safety OF MANY HUMANS by their STUPID BIASED action..

RunningDeer

10th April 2017, 19:47

Screaming Passenger Forcibly Removed From Overbooked Flight
RqUFVYrZUCA

Published on Apr 10, 2017

» CHICAGO — Video of police officers dragging a passenger from an overbooked United Airlines flight sparked an uproar Monday on social media, and a spokesman for the airline insisted that employees had no choice but to contact authorities to remove the man.

As the flight waited to depart from Chicago's O'Hare Airport, officers could be seen grabbing the screaming man from a window seat, pulling him across the armrest and dragging him down the aisle by his arms. The airline was trying to make room for four of its employees on the Sunday evening flight to Louisville, Kentucky.

Other passengers on Flight 3411 are heard saying, "Please, my God," ''What are you doing?" This is wrong," ''Look at what you did to him" and "Busted his lip."

Passenger Audra D. Bridges posted the video on Facebook. Her husband, Tyler Bridges, said United offered $400 and then $800 vouchers and a hotel stay for volunteers to give up their seats. When no one volunteered, a United manager came on the plane and announced that passengers would be chosen at random.

"We almost felt like we were being taken hostage," Tyler Bridges said. "We were stuck there. You can't do anything as a traveler. You're relying on the airline."

When airline employees named four customers who had to leave the plane, three of them did so. The fourth person refused to move, and police were called, United spokesman Charlie Hobart said.

"We followed the right procedures," Hobart told the Associated Press in a phone interview. "That plane had to depart. We wanted to get our customers to their destinations."

Oscar Munoz, CEO of United Airlines' parent company, described the event as "upsetting" and apologized for "having to re-accommodate these customers." He said the airline was conducting a review and reaching out to the passenger to "further address and resolve this situation."

When the manager approached the passenger, he said he was a doctor who needed to see patients in the morning, Bridges said.

Two officers tried to reason with the man before a third came aboard and pointed at the man "basically saying, 'Sir, you have to get off the plane,'" Bridges said. That's when the altercation happened.

The four United employees then boarded the plane.

"People on the plane were letting them have it," he said. "They were saying you should be ashamed to work for this company."

A few minutes later, the man who was removed from the plane returned, looking dazed and saying he had to get home, Bridges said. Officers followed him to the back of the plane. Another man traveling with high school students stood up at that point and said they were getting off the plane, Bridges said.

About half of the passengers followed before United told everyone to get off, he said.

The man who was originally dragged down the aisle was removed from the plane again, and United employees made an announcement saying they had to "tidy up" the aircraft, Bridges said.

Bridges' wife told him she saw the man taken away on a stretcher, he said.

After a three-hour delay the flight took off without the man aboard, Bridges said. A United employee apologized to passengers, he said.

Airlines are allowed to sell more tickets than there are seats on the plane, and they routinely overbook flights because some people do not show up.

It's not unusual for airlines to offer travel vouchers to encourage people to give up their seats, and there are no rules for this process. When an airline demands that a passenger give up a seat, the airline is required to pay compensation of double the passenger's fare, up to $675, if the passenger can be placed on another flight that arrives one to two hours later than the first flight, or four times the ticket price, up to $1,350, for longer delays.

When they bump passengers, airlines are required to give those passengers a written description of their compensation rights.

Hobart declined to say how the airline compensated the passengers who were forced to leave the plane, saying he did not have those details from employees on the scene.

Last year, United forced 3,765 people off oversold flights and another 62,895 United passengers volunteered to give up their seats, probably in exchange for travel vouchers.

That's out of more than 86 million people who boarded a United flight in 2016, according to government figures. United ranks in the middle of U.S. carriers when it comes to bumping passengers.

ExpressJet, which operates flights under the United Express, American Eagle and Delta Connection names, had the highest rate of bumping passengers last year. Among the largest carriers, Southwest Airlines had the highest rate, followed by JetBlue Airways.

Bridges said United should not have boarded the flight if it was overbooked.

"The man handled it wrong," he said. "The police were kind of put in a bad spot. There's a lot of ways United could have handled it and that was not one of the good ways.”

*****

‘Just Kill Me’ Disturbing New Video Shows Removed United Passenger With His Face Covered in Blood
4_rkBgspp5s

Published on Apr 10, 2017

» Yet another video has emerged of the man who was violently dragged off a United Airlines flight on Sunday, and it shows that the passenger’s face was covered in his own blood.

The video shows the man leaning up against the doorway between first-class and economy seating, while he repeatedly says, “Just kill me” and “I have to go home.”

Earlier videos of the man being dragged off the United flight, which was scheduled to go from Chicago to Louisville on Sunday night, sparked widespread outrage.

The man was originally asked to leave the airplane because United had overbook his flight. The man refused, and he claimed that he was a doctor who needed to make the flight to see some patients at his hospital the next day.

After he refused to leave, security officers grabbed him and dragged him off the plane, to the horror of several passengers.

#flythefriendlyskies

Bob

10th April 2017, 20:26

United Airlines CLEARLY LACKS COMMON SENSE (and doesn't give a damn about it's passengers who are the life blood of its corporate bottom line)

http://www.citywatchla.com/index.php/world-views/11369-united-airlines-doesn-t-give-a-damn-about-its-customers-but-then-you-knew-that-already

"United Airlines Doesn't Give a Damn about Its Customers ... But Then, You Knew That Already"

http://www.citywatchla.com/images/stories/June-2016/052c.png

ALPERN AT LARGE--I'm hardly the first to get inconvenienced, hurt, and harmed by a United States airline (they've earned quite the reputation, haven't they?), but when it comes to my family, I'm especially incensed. And it's not exactly a shocker that United Airlines is particularly insensitive and downright cruel when it comes to the well-being of their customers ... but you knew that already, didn't you?

And when it comes to one-stop flights in the Midwest (like Houston), when periodic storms roll in, and customers know they'll have their flights delayed for a few hours (not talking about the major downpours that last half a day or longer), that United Airlines is especially quick to cancel the flights altogether without having the personnel and planes to allow the flights to proceed when it's safe--leaving the travelers without any recourse...but you knew that already, didn't you?

And when flights are delayed, United Airlines is especially quick to save a few bucks and do the operational and potentially dangerous risk of sending out their pilots and crew just before they're timed out for safety reasons, so it's oopsie, we're timed out, and a reasonable 3-4 hour delay for safety reasons is turned into a cancellation that sends their passengers straight to Hades...but you knew that already, didn't you?

And when flights are unnecessarily cancelled, United Airlines is particularly unprepared to figure out how to house their stranded passengers in some nearby hotel, or to efficiently transfer luggage and commuters to another flight (even if the customers are willing to pay)...because, well, hey, who the heck else are you going to use on such short notice...but you knew that already, didn't you?

And if you ask if United Airlines can swing over another pilot, plane and crew to accommodate the scheduling/weather snafu, their people will look at you like it's CRAZY TALK! But you knew that already, didn't you?

And even when United Airlines unnecessarily cancels their connecting flights, and promises that you should keep your luggage (and Heaven forbid you should transfer to another airline's flight) with them to make it with you on their next flight, they'll--oopsie!--forget your luggage for up to 1-2 days...because that's YOUR problem. But..you knew that already, didn't you?

And when you try to contact an airport or United about your precious luggage and property, the only people you'll ever reach are calling center clones from India (who, to be fair, probably shouldn't be expected to know where the heck Knoxville, TN is) who provide catty, evasive, prepared, and confusing non sequiturs for every reasonable question you have...despite the fact that more local operators could be assigned to work with you better to get your luggage promptly. But you knew that already, didn't you?

And when the e-mails and texts state that your luggage and property is on their way, and you presume that the local drivers will work 24-7 to get your luggage to you, it shouldn't be that much of a shocker to get some call 24 hours later to learn that a local subcontractor just picked up your luggage and they'll be bringing it to you from the airport (where it's been sitting for about a day, despite what the e-mails and texts stated to the contrary)...yet you knew that already, didn't you?

Because when United Airlines tell us it's "number one", we really don't have too much of a choice, do we, with respect to certain flight patterns...so we don't pay attention to WHICH FINGER United Airlines gives us when it says we're "number one"!

...yet you knew THAT already, didn't you?

But I'll give United Airlines props for being "number one", all right--when it comes to a "civil service mentality", a quasi-criminal disregard for the safety and welfare and consideration of the lives, property and quality of transportation for their paying customers, United Airlines (compared to the other callous and customer-contemptuous United States domestic airlines) is truly "number one".

But you knew THAT already, didn't you?

Top 1,822 Complaints and Reviews about United Airlines

Flying United, I don't think so --- EVER.. Boycott this airline, they have absolutely no desire to use common sense OR ensure that your personal rights are honored. I have never ever been satisfied flying with that airline. More people weigh in below (short sampling of over 1822 complaints logged)

references - "Never Fly United" - http://www.nomadicmatt.com/travel-blogs/15-reasons-why-flying-united-airlines-sucks/
"15 REASONS WHY FLYING UNITED AIRLINES SUCKS"

They lose children.
They kick service dogs.
They break guitars.
United is so bad, pilots will still tell you they’re a Continental crew. It’s their not-so-subtle way of telling you they aren’t part of this mess.
United doesn’t respond to customer service requests on Twitter.
When you do call customer service, you get some guy in India who has no idea what you’re talking about. Now, I’m a product of the global age, and I don’t care where a call center is located. Hell, the Mars rover could be answering my customer service request. Doesn’t matter. What I care about is that the customer service representative speaks my language and knows what I’m talking about. It took 20 minutes for the rep to figure out I wanted a round-the-world ticket, not a round-trip ticket. Then, upon telling me that wasn’t his department, he transferred me to someone else who had no idea why I was calling and who also passed me off to another department. And another time when I called for help, the representative just hung up on me.
Their planes are old and ugly. They keep talking about upgrades, but at least American has a date for the arrival of their new planes. United does not.
They have the worst on-time status of all the major airlines.
They lose the most bags.
Their on-board meals are a joke. I understand that economy meals are never good, but when I’m paying $10 USD for something, I’d like it to be at least mildly edible. Their snack boxes are not. At least I can get a sandwich on other airlines. The bad (and free) cheese sandwich I got from Croatia Airlines was better than what you get fed on United.
There are no upgrades, even when you offer money. On my flight to Sweden, business class only had three people in it. I asked if there were any elite upgrades and when they said no, I asked if I could purchase an upgrade, having heard the guy in front of me ask and get an affirmative response. I was told, “No, there’s no space.” That plane flew with a half-empty first class and a mostly empty business class. Way to encourage customer loyalty among your elite fliers, United!
Their in-flight service sucks, and the flight attendants are pretty sour. (My guess? It’s a manifestation of the crappy corporate culture post-merger.)
Have I mentioned their planes are old and outdated?
They have no Wi-Fi.
Their flights cost more than their competitors…but with crappier service!

reference - "Never fly United Airlines"
https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g1-i10702-k5297964-Never_fly_United_Airlines-Air_Travel.html

Apr 03, 2012, 12:05 AM
Please do your best to never fly this airline. United has screwed me on every flight and mileage plus booking I have done in the last 2 years. If its not doubling how many miles I need for a flight, it is changing my flights without comment, or bumping me from upgrades I have purchased. I have canceled my mileage plus card, and I will do everything I can do to never fly with United again!

reference - "Consumer Complaints and Reviews"
https://www.consumeraffairs.com/travel/united.html?page=17

"Flying with United Airlines was the worst experience. The employees was so rude. I suppose to sit on the outside aisle. Since this woman had three children, the lady that work for the airline ask me to sit by window and one of the children throw up and cried the whole trip to Nigeria for over 15 hours."

"I bought a ticket for my mom and my daughter seven years old. They cancelled the fly three time and didn't want to accommodate them by putting them in the hotel. They left them in the airport. That's more than 90 hours. This little girl is in the airport - no food, no English. My daughter is getting sick because of the long waiting."

"My entire experience with United this weekend was a total disaster. To begin, my flight from Denver to Bend on Friday night was cancelled last minute due to non-availability of pilots. They actually scanned our boarding passes in and had us lined up ready to get on the plane just to have us turn around and go back inside to later find out our flight would be cancelled. We then had to fly to Eugene instead, rent a car, and drive 2 and a half hours to get to our destination (Bend). Then, I was told my bag would arrive at our place of stay the next morning. I did not receive my bag until 7 pm on the 17th. Then, as if this wasn't enough to deal with, on our way there, my flights coming home were a disaster as well.

We had to return our rental car to Redmond rather than Eugene as that's where our flight was leaving on Sunday. This ended up costing us an extra $200 in rental fees for returning the car to a different airport. Then, the flight from Redmond to Denver was "overweight" due to temperatures in the area. We had to wait until 5 people volunteered to change flights before our flight could leave. THEN I get to Denver only to find out my flight from Denver to SLC was delayed. Not to mention, I already had a 3-hour layover and this delay made it 4+ hours. The flight continued to get delayed and didn't end up leaving Denver until about 1 am.

I did not get home until 3 am and had work Monday morning at 7 am. Therefore leaving me with absolutely no sleep. I am completely upset with my entire United experience and will most definitely not be flying United again and will be passing on my feelings to friends, family and co-workers as I would never want anyone to experience the things I did. One thing I forgot to mention was that the 17th is my Birthday and this trip was to celebrate that. Overall the amount of issues I ran into this past weekend ended up ruining my birthday altogether. Not to mention the customer service was completely AWFUL. When approaching an employee with a question/concern they were completely disrespectful and not helpful in any way, shape or form."

many many more complaints about "Flying United" exist..

https://img.wonkette.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/stop-resisting-arrest.jpg

Anyone see the sign that says: OBEY

Ernie Nemeth

10th April 2017, 20:29

Bloody well sick. I am outraged. For this I would have got very violent in his defense. They would have had to drag me away too...and I would have in any case got off the flight in protest.

seko

10th April 2017, 20:33

After seeing this everybody should avoid this airline. Make it go bankrupt.....may be not go bankrupt.

Bob

10th April 2017, 20:56

The brutal "lowlife" (that is a kind descriptor it would seem) of an 'officer' (read police "bully") who dragged the man off the plane has been forced to take paid leave for violating official policy..

reference - http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/video-appears-to-show-passenger-being-removed-from-united-flight/

"An embarrassing viral video of a man being forcibly dragged off a United Airlines flight has resulted in an officer with the Chicago Department of Aviation police force being placed on leave.

“The incident on United flight 3411 was not in accordance with our standard operating procedure and the actions of the aviation security officer are obviously not condoned by the Department,” Aviation Department spokesperson Karen Pride wrote in an email to the Chicago Sun-Times.

“That officer has been placed on leave effective today pending a thorough review of the situation.”

The social-media videos showing a passenger being forcibly dragged down the aisle by aviation police are drawing worldwide attention.

One 31-second clip posted on the Facebook page of Audra D. Bridges about 7:30 p.m. Sunday shows a man being pulled by his arms from a Louisville-bound jet."

"Multiple passengers can also be heard exclaiming “Oh my God!” as the man screams while being yanked out of his seat.

Passenger Jayse Anspach Tweeted: “It looked like he was knocked out, because he went limp and quiet and they dragged him out of the plane like a rag doll.”

The police said "the man fell" (and that was why he was unconscious.. (and had to be forcibly dragged off while holding his smart-phone)...

As the Chicago Police statement began circulating on Twitter Monday afternoon — with people taking exception to the characterization of the man falling — police said that any further information about the matter should come through the Department of Aviation. “That was not a formal statement by me or CPD,” Chicago Police Department spokesman Anthony Guglielmi explained in an email.

Another man traveling with high school students stood up at that point and said they were getting off the plane, Bridges said.

About half of the passengers followed before United told everyone to get off, he said.

The man who was originally dragged down the aisle was removed from the plane again, and United employees made an announcement saying they had to “tidy up” the aircraft, Bridges said.

Bridges’ wife told him she saw the man taken away on a stretcher, he said.

After a three-hour delay the flight took off without the man aboard, Bridges said. A United employee apologized to passengers, he said.

The passengers were clearly upset about the travesty that was committed, while "Flying the Friendly Skies of United"..

==UPDATE==
This situation of "police abuse" (excessive force) has now reached federal officials who have now started an investigation of both United and the Chicago Department of Aviation police force (and officer involved).

The 69 year old man who managed to get briefly back on the plane (apparently to retrieve his carry ons) was video'd saying "I HAVE to get home, I HAVE TO get HOME"...

Bubu

10th April 2017, 23:10

what qualification and training do this officers get to be able to keep a gun in public and oversee public order and safety? Seems to me that we dont need a microchip at all.

guayabal

10th April 2017, 23:41

"do we live in a police state?" a question by Attorney Leonard French:
YOMl21K4WH0

RunningDeer

11th April 2017, 01:05

"do we live in a police state?" a question by Attorney Leonard French:

YOMl21K4WH0

A two and a half minute update from Leonard French.

Update on United Flight 3411: Man removed by Force - Statement by Chicago Aviation Police?
5SYIL_1eMN0

Published on Apr 10, 2017

I talk briefly about this statement:

The aviation security officer who pulled the man from his seat was placed on leave Monday, “pending a thorough review of the situation,” the Chicago Department of Aviation said in a statement. “The incident on United Flight 3411 was not in accordance with our standard operating procedure and the actions are obviously not condoned by the department.”

From: http://www.heraldtribune.com/news/20170410/passenger-on-overbooked-flight-dragged-from-plane

Know your airline overbooking rights: https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-rights#Overbooking

Check out my podcast (episode 2 is out!) with @SkepticSarah at https://www.lawfulmasses.com/category/episodes/

Join our live chat Discord server at https://discord.gg/mnzSKwP

AutumnW

11th April 2017, 02:24

So awful...kind of unbelievably bad. The first thing they should legislate against is overbooking. If somebody cancels the airlines are paid anyway, so it's not like they would lose money on an empty seat! This is just one reason I am very hesitant to fly. You are in a VERY powerless situation in countries whose govts. and control apparatus may not have a lot of respect for the vulnerable. That includes the U.S. Air Canada has a VERY bad record too. But we have a 'feminist' PM, so it's all okay!:thumbsdown:

Flash

11th April 2017, 03:00

What does "femnist" PM has to do with screwed up airlines? Gosh!!

And why would it be bad to have a feminist PM?

If you write those thing, I will start thinking that you support macho pigs! (this has the same impact on one's emotion as what you imply about women)

So awful...kind of unbelievably bad. The first thing they should legislate against is overbooking. If somebody cancels the airlines are paid anyway, so it's not like they would lose money on an empty seat! This is just one reason I am very hesitant to fly. You are in a VERY powerless situation in countries whose govts. and control apparatus may not have a lot of respect for the vulnerable. That includes the U.S. Air Canada has a VERY bad record too. But we have a 'feminist' PM, so it's all okay!:thumbsdown:

AutumnW

11th April 2017, 03:33

Hi Flash,

I'm currently put off with Trudeau and it leaked into this thread. In a country that sees itself as egalitarian, we too have glaring examples of really bad treatment of the vulnerable and I include airline passengers. Remember that Polish guy who was tasered to death at the Vancouver airport? And Trudeau is backing regime change in Syria as if yesterday. I know this seems beside the point but I just see it as an over all contempt for those who have no power. That's why I put 'feminist' in quotations. Real feminists egalitarians do NOT support killing anybody, including women, in these kinds of aggressive ventures. Speaking of flying, sorry to hijack the thread. And now back to our regularly scheduled programming!😀

chancy

11th April 2017, 04:26

yuhui

11th April 2017, 04:45

hope this does not have anything to do with U.S. warships heading toward Korean Peninsula(which is two days ago)....because this news is going viral on weibo(chinese social networks) mainly because the nationalistic sentiment is incited.

Bob

11th April 2017, 06:16

The Paid Leave for police - "Paid leave for officers suspected of misconduct is baked into union rules in many places." - https://thinkprogress.org/kaepernick-police-paid-leave-d577eaae2096

Cops often sit on paid leave while under investigation.

The Chicago cop who killed Laquan McDonald was on paid leave for a year before ultimately being charged with murder after a cover-up failed.

Paid suspensions are common in everything from corruption scandals to sexual assault allegations to abuse of force investigations.

Paid leave pending investigation sounds like a short-term thing. But it isn’t always.

Officer Manuel Avila collected about a million dollars in compensation during a nine-year paid suspension in Paterson, NJ, as police investigators probed sexual assault allegations against him.

A Florida officer named Charles Hoeffer sat on paid leave for almost two years while under investigation for sexual assault, before department officials used a technicality to fire him.

[..]

Hello Everyone:
I don't believe any public employee should get "paid leave" when they have done something wrong!

If I do something wrong I don't get paid leave! If you do something wrong you don't get paid leave! Why is it acceptable to get paid leave for being a bully? What if this man had a bad back or a pre condition that could have killed him? Is it perfectly ok to give the bully who is pulling him down the isle "paid leave"? I know it's not and it should be stopped.
chancy

Mark (Star Mariner)

11th April 2017, 13:31

That is absolutely despicable! Who the hell do they think they are?? They might be in the transportation sector, but they are still a service, right? A public service? Then shouldn't Customer Service be their highest principle? Apparently not. Customer abuse more like. Holy holy crap!. Can you imagine say, a customer being beaten and then dragged out of his hotel room, because hey, we overbooked, sorry! need that room for someone else. Isn't it the same the damn thing!?

Perhaps having worked at an airport for many years, around airlines and airline staff as well as in customer service -because that is the nature of the industry- this really makes my blood boil! I sincerely hope that United get absolutely burned with this. I sincerely hope that poor guy, and maybe other traumatized passengers on that flight as well, make them regret this big time. I hope United gets sued to HIGH HEAVEN and back.

:mad2:

Krist

11th April 2017, 15:26

Bloody well sick. I am outraged. For this I would have got very violent in his defense. They would have had to drag me away too...and I would have in any case got off the flight in protest.

Ernie,
Thank you for having a spine.There are over 100 other humans watching another being brutalized for fear of giving up their seat let alone their own safety......
The video is a good example of the over all mind set of the rest of us.Stand by, watch, keep quiet so they don't beat me too.

I don't know if "very violent defense" would help.What would make a dent is withdraw support! We are paying for these goods & services with our lives on the line at this point.

If one looked at the many youboob comments,It would be noted that we have been successfully divided on such activities.This brings us back to the "spine" comment ,very few of us are willing to give up comfort especially without pay.

Dangit ,I'm not powerful enough to do anything about these uncomfortable situations alone.We don't have to fight to make this change. We need to cooperate and be all inclusive here.As Wade Frazier has said "the in group out group" clearly doesn't work very well for us all here at the moment.

The point made here is,the ship is sinking fast.If "WE" cooperate the very young may survive...Some of us less fearful souls might have to take a night stick to the head for the meek.

My dear grandmother would say "forgive them for they do not know what they do". That quote surely came from somewhere else.She always presented such things to me with love....
My dad is more like you Ernie "hey pick on somebody your own size fellas or else"And I'll be damned if I don't feel the same.

RunningDeer

11th April 2017, 19:19

Did United Airlines BREACH their Contract of Carriage by forcing man off plane?
sdtG0WyktMM

Published on Apr 11, 2017

United Airlines may have breached their Contract of Carriage when they forcibly removed the man from Flight 3411 on Sunday.

United Airline's Contract of Carriage: https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx/

Know your airline overbooking rights: https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-rights#Overbooking

chancy

11th April 2017, 20:00

Hello Everyone:
It's interesting to have united trying to discredit a man they physically threw off the plane! He had paid for his ticket and that should be enough to keep the seat unless the price was right and apparently it wasn't the right price because he wanted to go home to his patients.

I find it heartless and sickening that an airline can be so cold and calculating when they are in the wrong! All they had to do was up the price for someone to get off the plane. Eventually the price would be taken by someone and we wouldn't be having any conversations about this event.

I for one believe united should be fined and held to pay whatever piece of the puzzle is acceptable to Dr. David Dao, 69.

By the way where are the privacy laws against publishing his name etc. These should be held in private and not so easily assessed and given out as united has done.

Shame on united airlines

chancy

Link:
https://ca.news.yahoo.com/video-shows-guards-dragging-passenger-133041900.html

Article:
Man removed from jet is Kentucky doctor with criminal record
[The Canadian Press]
The Canadian PressApril 11, 2017
Man removed from jet is Kentucky doctor with criminal record

CHICAGO — The man dragged from a full United Express flight by airport police in Chicago is a Kentucky physician who was convicted more than a decade ago of felony charges involving his prescribing of drugs.

But while the passenger's unflattering history quickly became the focus of attention, there's no indication that his past influenced how he was treated or that the airline or police were aware of his background. And it's unlikely that officials would have known anything about him other than basic identifying information such as his name and address, if that.

A person with knowledge of the Sunday evening flight who was not authorized to publicly release the information told The Associated Press that the passenger was David Dao, 69, of Elizabethtown, Kentucky. He did not return messages from the AP.

While screaming can be heard on the videos, nowhere is Dao seen attacking the security officers. In fact, he appears relatively passive both when he was dragged down the aisle of the jet and when he is seen standing in the aisle later saying quietly, "I want to go home, I want to go home."

When cellphone videos taken by other passengers first emerged, they generated widespread sympathy for Dao and sharp criticism of the airline.

The chief executive of the airline's parent company initially released a statement saying only that United wanted to talk to the man. But Oscar Munoz later began defending his employees, saying in a letter that the passenger was being "disruptive and belligerent."

That comment certainly suggests that Dao's actions could be examined closely by United and the Chicago Aviation Department, though it remains unclear what role Dao's past might play in those investigations.

According to records from the Kentucky Board of Medical Licensure, Dao went to medical school at the University of Medicine of Ho Chi Minh City in Vietnam, graduating in 1974. He was licensed in Kentucky with a specialty in pulmonary disease.

His legal troubles started in 2003, when his medical license was suspended after an undercover sting operation at a Louisville motel for allegedly writing fraudulent prescriptions.

According to the documents, the licensing board had learned that Dao had become sexually interested in a patient and hired the patient as his office manager. That man later said he quit his job because Dao "pursued him aggressively" and arranged to provide him with prescription drugs in exchange for sex.

Dao was ultimately convicted in late 2004 of several counts of obtaining drugs by fraud or deceit and was placed on five years of supervised probation and surrendered his medical license.

His longtime effort to get his license back was finally successful in 2015, when the licensing board allowed him to practice medicine again.

Airport officials have said little about the Sunday's events and nothing about Dao's behaviour before he was pulled from the jet that was bound for Louisville, Kentucky. Likewise, the Aviation Department has said only that one of its employees who removed Dao did not follow proper procedures and has been placed on leave.

No passengers on the plane have mentioned that Dao did anything but refuse to leave the plane when he was ordered to do so.

On Monday, Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel called the altercation "completely unacceptable" and praised Aviation Commissioner Ginger Evans for taking "swift action." He promised that a city investigation would "ensure nothing like this ever happens again."

Sunday night's confrontation stemmed from a common air travel issue — a full flight. United was trying to make room for four employees of a partner airline, meaning four people had to get off.

At first, the airline asked for volunteers, offering $400 and then when that did not work, $800 per passenger to relinquish a seat. When no one voluntarily came forward, United selected four passengers at random.

Three people got off the flight, but the fourth, a man who said he was a doctor and needed to get home to treat patients on Monday, refused.

Three men, identified later as Aviation Department security officers, got on the plane. Two officers tried to reason with the man before a third came aboard and pointed at the man "basically saying, 'Sir, you have to get off the plane,'" said Tyler Bridges, a passenger whose wife, Audra D. Bridges, posted a video on Facebook.

Chakra

11th April 2017, 20:15

United screwed up - they know they screwed up and are pathetically trying to divert the backlash by blaming the victim. Typical jackass move by the nut-bar fringe element that run companies.

amor

11th April 2017, 20:47

The old airplane stock of Eastern Airlines went to Continental and now United. It is amazing they are still flying. I once flew Eastern to California and later Continental. On both occasions, I was absolutely certain that the plane was going to crash any second. Flying over mountains can be bumpy but not traumatic!

On the subject of New World Order brutality, if no one bigger than the selected "dogs or goons" will stand up against, singly or as a group, to help a weaker person, then we are all headed for the goulag, the fema camp and the guillotine. The Courts were born in the New World Order Camp. There is no justice there. Look at who pays the Judges.

Ernie Nemeth

11th April 2017, 21:02

It wouldn't be something I'd think about and contemplate the repercussions. I would just act to protect. It's in my nature.

I am certainly not a tough guy. But sometimes the need to stand up is paramount. I do the same in daily situations as well, in milder form. I don't suffer BS well.

AutumnW

11th April 2017, 21:07

Yes, these actions could only happen in a police state. In Canada, too, there are tremendous abuses of power in the airline industey and airports that haven't been addressed by govt. White middle class individuals are not exposed to the same kind of regular abuse as the powerless. It's only when we are bumped for no reason or dragged off a plane we feel the abuse of the vulnerable.

Lots of lip service paid to the notion of freedom but if you ever find yourself down and out or powerless, watch out! Both societies are becoming increasingly less civil, less truly compassionate.

I just defended Canada and Trudeau the other day on this forum and have been doing a lot of reflecting on that position lately.

Bubu

12th April 2017, 00:26

Hello Everyone:
I don't believe any public employee should get "paid leave" when they have done something wrong!

If I do something wrong I don't get paid leave! If you do something wrong you don't get paid leave! Why is it acceptable to get paid leave for being a bully? What if this man had a bad back or a pre condition that could have killed him? Is it perfectly ok to give the bully who is pulling him down the isle "paid leave"? I know it's not and it should be stopped.
chancy

when an employee wrong the management he is sacked without pay immediately. But if a police officer abuse an ordinary citizen he gets a no work with pay (reward)

Verdilac

12th April 2017, 12:24

I've enjoyed reading everyone's posts and have learn quite a lot of facts,statistics and good information.

There is moral dilemma here, would you help this man being bullied?

It is as simple as that for me. I Would because I just couldn't help myself not too. A top of the roller coaster moment that could well have been handled without violence.

There is another point though, which is being overlooked. Yes this went viral but, if the major news networks didn't pick it up and run with it, then many people wouldn't have seen it.

I'm open minded about this incident, but if I was to be sceptical or critical I would question, like I have just mentioned. The coverage this got, the message it is sending out to what is deemed to be acceptable public behaviour no matter what badge or uniform the perpetrators are wearing or in some cases hiding behind, as you don't just trade your morals in to keep to seat if a fellow traveller is getting a hard time.

leading to my final observation, there are other stories that seem to be getting overlooked/buried . There are many,but what sprung to my mind was Rex Tillerson's meeting with Vladimir Putin in which the Russian leader gives a very credible account of what may have happened regarding the recent alleged chemical weapons deployment in Syria. Yes this this is getting some coverage but pale in comparison to this "passenger removed from plane" story.

Just an observation from my little corner of the world.

Mark (Star Mariner)

12th April 2017, 13:00

There is another point though, which is being overlooked. Yes this went viral but, if the major news networks didn't pick it up and run with it, then many people wouldn't have seen it.

A good point. Being a bit of a ludite and 'not doing' any social media, I have to admit that without social media or youtube, and without mobile phones to record the event, we'd probably never know about it. The whole story would've been quickly quashed by the airline, and then forgotten.

TargeT

12th April 2017, 13:13

There's always options (https://streamable.com/xh1q1), even when it seems like there aren't.

One of these days we will quit being sheep... the worst part about those videos is how everyone just sat there and watched.

I guess we are that conditioned at this point, right and wrong are meaningless when someone wears a costume with stars on it.

the message it is sending out to what is deemed to be acceptable public behaviour

It's a subtle way of re-enforcing the conditioning: Authority figures can do what ever they want.

and of course, distraction.

ramus

12th April 2017, 14:51

How to not get bumped from a flight (and how to make the most money if you do)

Published: Apr 11, 2017 4:15 p.m. ET

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-to-not-get-bumped-from-a-flight-and-how-to-
make-the-most-money-if-you-do-2017-04-11

KNOW YOUR RIGHTS

By
Kari
Paul
Reporter

United Airlines UAL, +0.07% is continuing to weather an onslaught of
international outrage after video of a passenger being forcibly removed from a
plane in Chicago was posted online Sunday night — bringing into question the
policy of selling more tickets than there are seats for flights.

But while overbooking flights is completely legal (and common), there are still
measures consumers can take to prevent themselves from being booted off a flight
— and get a hefty compensation if they are.

To be safe, don’t fly economy

If a flight is overbooked, airlines will start by asking for volunteers to take
various forms of compensation for giving up their seats, which can range from a
coupon for a cup of coffee or more than $1,000 in cash. If not enough volunteers
come forward, the airline is within its legal right to remove passengers from
the flight involuntarily. But as the Department of Transportation noted in a
statement on Monday, “it is the airline’s responsibility to determine its own
fair boarding priorities.”

“Typically the hierarchy goes from back to the front,” said Joseph Lorusso, a
Colorado-based aviation attorney and airline-rated pilot, noting that he doesn’t
have knowledge of United’s specific system. “Without knowing the exact protocol,
you’re going to be safer in first class or even business than if you’re just
flying economy.”

Always negotiate

Whether you are bumped from a flight voluntarily or involuntarily, Lorusso said
it’s important to view the Department of Transportation’s Passenger Bill of
Rights and ask for sufficient compensation. Customers who are “involuntarily
denied boarding” of an aircraft on domestic flights (even if they’re already on
the plane) are entitled to 200% of their one-way fare in compensation (no more
than $675) in cash if their delay is more than one hour but less than two,
according to a federal regulation. If the delay is more than two hours, they are
entitled to 400% of a one-way fare (but no more than $1,350) in cash.

“It’s a negotiation between you and the airline - for both voluntary and
involuntary bumps,” he said. “Just because they say they’ll give you a ticket
does not mean you have to take that.”

Comply with the crew

When passengers are involuntarily bumped, they must leave the plane, Lorusso
said — so what happened on the United flight would not be illegal. However, in
this particular incident, the flight was not oversold but past capacity because
four crew members were trying to make it to Kentucky for another job. Because of
this, the involuntary bump may not have been protected under federal law,
Lorusso said, which only covers paying customers — not traveling crew.

Don’t Miss: ‘Re-accommodate’ is United’s euphemism for forcibly dragging
passenger off an airplane

Still, plane passengers can be removed at any time under the contract of
carriage. Because the plane’s door was open, Lorusso said the crew followed
proper federal protocol by calling local police, as they were still under state
jurisdiction. Once the door is closed, the plane falls under federal
jurisdiction, and passengers legally must comply with uniformed crew members —
including flight attendants.

“That door controls more than people think,” he said. “The most important thing
to keep in mind is to comply: if they ask you to get off the airplane, then get
off.”

Choose your airline wisely

It doesn’t have to be this way, said Brett Snyder, author of the
airline-industry blog CrankyFlier.com. Other airlines have implemented systems
to avoid such issues — including JetBlue, which doesn’t oversell flights.

“Airlines need to figure out a better way to do this,” he said. “For example,
Delta bumps a ton of people but it’s almost entirely voluntary — they have
gotten good at getting aggressive at the gate trying to make sure they are
prepared before anyone boards.”

In the meantime, these policies may be under examination internally at United,
said Lorusso.

“It’s a cost-benefit analysis for them — they don’t want to give away too much
when they are afforded the right to bump involuntarily,” he said. “But I bet
United is looking back and thinking they should have offered more than $800
after this.”

Bob

12th April 2017, 17:00

United CEO Oscar Munoz admits "LACK OF COMMON SENSE" was the main issue

In post #4 above (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?97088-United-passenger-forcibly-removed-from-flight-after-refusing-to-give-up-seat&p=1145626&viewfull=1#post1145626), I pointed out that apparently some people "did stupid" and apparently showed the world that they "LACKED COMMON SENSE", for instance, the United Flight crew that ordered police to remove the passenger (by force), the United manager, the gate people (who should NOT have allowed on passengers if a planned BUMP was scheduled)..

Munoz says he WON'T RESIGN over the issue, but he agrees, that it was stupid to remove a booked seated PAID passenger from the flight.. He says UNITED will never do such a thing again.. (hmmm, "read my lips!" ??)

United Stock shares have been taking a nose-dive since the incident has been reported world-wide.

With the situation of "over-booking", verses "accommodating United Employees" (the 4 members that United wanted to fly for free), it is quite possible that the "over-booking rules" will not apply, and United and the people involved WILL be cited as culpable for violating a legitimate passenger's rights (wellbeing and physical safety). I suppose the abused Doctor could argue that the patients that he was scheduled to see have also been harmed by his not being there to attend them, and that he himself has been irreparably harmed, stress, mental, potentially physical inability to perform surgery to having been "traumatized".. No doubt United Air lines is in a "sticky wicket".

reference: http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/12/this-will-never-happen-again-united-ceo-munoz-promises-in-interview.html

Oscar Munoz, CEO of United Airlines makes a statement during an interview.

"This will never happen again," United Chief Executive Oscar Munoz said in an interview Wednesday. "That's my promise."

The interview came three days after the violent eviction of a passenger from a United Express flight. Munoz received widespread criticism for his response to a social media storm that followed the posting of video of the confrontation.

Asked if he would resign, Munoz responded: "No. I was hired to make United better, and that's what we'll do."

The CEO added that he didn't issue a more in-depth apology until Tuesday because "the expression of apology is important in a discussion like this."

Explaining why the debacle happened in the first place, Munoz told GMA it was a "system failure," where the company didn't provide the right tools or resources to allow United's "front-line managers" to "use their common sense."

Further, Munoz said United will not use law enforcement to remove on-board passengers in the future, as was the case on Sunday evening.

How the United fiasco unfolded

Initially on Monday, after video surfaced of the bloodied passenger being dragged from his flight by law enforcement, the stock climbed around 1 percent as Wall Street largely ignored the issue. But overnight outrage spread internationally, and the stock lost as much as 4 percent Tuesday.

Munoz issued a detailed apology, his second statement on the incident, late in the day Tuesday, and shares pared back their initial losses, closing the day down around 1 percent.

"The truly horrific event that occurred on this flight has elicited many responses from all of us: outrage, anger, disappointment. I share all of those sentiments, and one above all: my deepest apologies for what happened. Like you, I continue to be disturbed by what happened on this flight and I deeply apologize to the customer forcibly removed and to all the customers aboard. No one should ever be mistreated this way," Munoz said in a statement.

The passenger was identified Tuesday as Dr. David Dao. In a statement, his lawyers said:

"The family of Dr. Dao wants the world to know that they are very appreciative of the outpouring of prayers, concern and support they have received. Currently, they are focused only on Dr. Dao's medical care and treatment." The statement by Chicago attorney Stephen Golan also said the family has asked for privacy.

bettye198

12th April 2017, 18:27

The MSM of course capitalized on this event, bringing in pundit attorneys and so forth. There will be a lawsuit no doubt. And God help this man if his practice is compromised over this. I am married to a Dr and I thought about this for myself. What if we had scheduled patients and were ordered to deplane? Gone are the days when someone in need shouts in the plane- Is there a Doctor on board? Gone is the respect or care for one another. United has always itched me the wrong way, so my next Hawaiian vacation will be Hawaiian airlines.

Ernie Nemeth

12th April 2017, 20:41

My no fly ever anywhere protocol seems like the best solution. But for me its about the constantly changing air pressure that I cannot take. I get nose bleeds and I get very bad headaches that can last for days.
In the final analysis, the shock of the atrocious way this passenger was treated highlights the uncomfortable truth of our situation: that we are living in a society where violence is always just around the corner and will be visited upon you without hesitation if you cross the law, whether willfully or accidentally, whether within your rights or not.
Of course it further underscores the blatant fact that violence is rampant in our society wherever you choose to look.
I could never suffer through a four hour delay on the tarmac or a 16 hour flight - it would utterly drain me.
Don't forget, since the 1950s, air travel has remained virtually the same. Same travel time, same leaky craft, same crappy service, same cramped seats.
These old technologies have to be replaced, but not in a monetized world, not any time soon at least.
I guess the consensus recommendation is best: comply, but negotiate for proper compensation.

Bob

12th April 2017, 22:10

The other two aviation cops involved with the dragging of the 69 year old Doctor, have been now put on "administrative (paid) leave".

It would seem that all 3 are now, at the moment, no longer a risk to the public's safety.

reference: NBC Mainstream media news 1500 hours Central Time.

Bob

12th April 2017, 22:20

The harmed Doctor, David Dao has just filed an emergency "bill of discovery" against the carrier in Illinois State Court demanding that evidence documenting Sunday's "re-accommodation" aboard a Kentucky-bound plane be "preserved and protected."

http://www.12newsnow.com/img/resize/content.whas11.com/photo/2017/04/09/united%20airlines%20incident%2004092017%20xx%201_1491796566152_9195593_ver1.0.JPG?preset=534-401

"That includes all surveillance videos, cockpit voice recordings, passenger and crew lists, incident reports and other items.

"Dao "currently has no access to them and believes that serious prejudice" will befall his case if the items are not safeguarded, the court papers state."

The term "re-accommodation" is airline jargon for bumping/removing a paid passenger from travel on the airline's plane(s).

reference: http://www.12newsnow.com/news/david-dao-doctor-dragged-off-plane-files-court-papers-demanding-united-airlines-preserve-evidence/430808752

Chester

12th April 2017, 23:33

Bob

13th April 2017, 03:31

United Airlines trying to BRIBE the passengers on the flight that witnessed the Doctor (69 years old) being forcibly ejected from a legally paid for seat to allow a free United employee to fly..

reference - http://abc7.com/travel/united-offering-compensation-to-passengers-after-fiasco/1866233/

United knows that it's stock tanked with millions and millions of dollars being lost for it's blatant stupidity, and LACK OF COMMON SENSE and Judgement..

They are trying to get passengers to not report on what happened by trying to 'buy them off' offering ALL passengers some rebate..

CHICAGO -- United Airlines sought to quell the uproar over a man being dragged off a plane by announcing on Tuesday that it would no longer ask police to remove passengers from full flights and would compensate customers who were on the flight when the man was removed.

In an effort to calm the backlash, United also announced that passengers on United Express Flight 3411 would be compensated equal to the cost of their tickets.

Seems this is quite underhanded.. What do you think?

lastlegs

13th April 2017, 05:09

Not one of these posts has commented on the fact that this man was SIXTY NINE YEARS OLD. MY birthday was yesterday and I am 72. This man was chosen because he was old and felt to be easily intimidated and the belief that at his age he had nothing better to do. I encounter this all the time. I experienced it a lot in LA with white hair. I could be in line for whatever and they would take someone a head of me with a brief apology about getting back. Old people are often not believed. I once raise my voice about his and immediately got crazy old lady.

The airline has immediately gone into his past to discredit him as a victim.

This could easily happen to greybeard and a few others here. Then you would note his age. This guy could have all kinds of whip lash etc. I know my body would be in really bad shape for weeks after being dragged like that.

The one thing I have learned being both old and Jewish is that I am not walking onto any box car or violation of my rights ever. Just go a head a shoot me. And I expect the rest of you to understand what I did and why. And at least stand up and say something about it. Because we all know for whom the bell tolls----all of us.

RunningDeer

13th April 2017, 07:25

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/dielaughing.gif Tweets for United Airlines http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/belly-laugh.gif

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/General/1a_zpsemhuwnu0.JPG

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/General/1_zpsigll8qol.JPG

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/General/2_zpsnptidyap.JPG

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/General/3_zpslrffqoxx.JPG

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/General/4_zpsdlitrmsg.JPG

Krist

13th April 2017, 12:11

Chester

13th April 2017, 13:01

Warning, no one will like my entire post.

The overbooking policy saves travelers ticket costs.

It is possible (if the claims from United are true...) that technically the flight was not overbooked.

Regardless of this potential technically, the actions taken appear to have been based on protocols for overbooking.

These policies are regulated and thus the airlines are restricted in what they can do in this regard (meaning how far they can go).

There appears to be either or both a flaw in the management process and a lack in the establishment of sufficient management protocols, especially for if/when situations like this get dicey.

That seats were needed to transport employees to another location for what was deemed more important to United than the potential fallout seems like an obvious lack of judgment.

When the nuclear option was enacted (4 were forced to go), the process of selection was based on policy in conjunction with regulations.

At this point, three people (I assume they were of the list of four that had been selected as per regulations) left peacefully (and I surely hope they did not waive their right to the "best, last offer).

It has also been reported that the Dr. gentleman had also left the flight and then somehow got back on.

What I wonder is, was the cockpit jump seat available? If so, why was not one of the airline personnel shifted to that seat. If this was the case, perhaps this was no longer an option based on regulations where if the nuclear option was enacted, by doing this, the other three who left peacefully could have a valid complaint.

Why were these four employees not transported to their location via another option? From my understanding, their obligation was timed for the next day. Perhaps they risked meeting mandated sleep requirements? (regulations again perhaps).

And so now, after the Dr. had purportedly left the plane and yet then "snuck back on" (not sure how that can even happen), he was again asked to leave. It is safe to assume that at this point, emotions on all sides started to bubble.

It was reported that the Dr. still refused to leave and this is when airport police were called.

I will insert this thought here now... why could the pilot not make the decision to just site at the gate until the man left peacefully? Surely the other passengers might begin to implore the Dr. to leave or one of them volunteer themselves? Perhaps not an option due to regulations?

Now for what may likely become controversial but hey... I post my views honestly.

It is my opinion that despite all the valid arguments the Dr. could have put forth, he also has personal responsibility as to how he manifests his own behavior. When police become involved, this takes on a whole new dynamic. Especially when it is Airport Police in the post 9/11 era.

That refusal to leave and based on the likely legal mandates provided for the Airport Police, they probably had the legal right to begin to use forceful means to remove him.

It appears the man reacted in ways that the Police determined that they had no choice but to become forceful.

The video I saw shows (with good audio) that the man was screaming as if he were being dipped in boiling tar.

Videos show that other passengers reacted with outrage - And these reactions struct me as massively over-dramatic. It further bothers me when I consider none of those did their part to avoid the issue by giving up their own seat. Though, of course, why should they?

Why someone should have stepped up IMO is that anyone who was there surely could see the situation was only going bad. Want to help the world? Take the hit for the sake of peace. I know for certain I would have so I have no problem saying this.

So does the doctor have a case? Obviously. In our day and age, this is a slam dunk. He will end up with millions. I am certain the "trauma" (his excellent acting job by being way way over-dramantic) and his very superficial injuries where the worst case is that he may have suffered a fractured nose would likely be considered by the Dr. to be "well worth it." He played the system and is a shoe in to win and win big.

The airline CEO... obviously in hindsight, could have handled this much better from the perspective of shareholders as he increased the outrage and thus increased public fallout.

But my own final conclusions is an indictment against everyone involved at every level of how this all unfolded and this includes the Dr. and this includes that ranting lady and this includes all the other passengers who were in some way aware this was going in an obviously bad direction.

Humanity as a whole (and no I am not blaming everyone as there are a few exceptions) but for the large part... showed (once again) how humanity can lose and how it is the fault of examples of human expression that emit from...

humanity.

I saw no one in this fiasco "being the change I want to see."

TargeT

13th April 2017, 13:49

Chester

13th April 2017, 14:41

But my own final conclusions is an indictment against everyone involved at every level of how this all unfolded and this includes the Dr. and this includes that ranting lady and this includes all the other passengers who were in some way aware this was going in an obviously bad direction.

I'd say there was a good fair share of escalation participation all around, however; once one-sided-violence is used the scale (for me) tilts heavily against the perpetrator.

Up until the point of violence, I agree the guy was probably being an asshole (things like this don't happen out of nowhere).

Taking a violent approach is being lazy and impatient (any parent should know this), forcibly removing this individual caused a 3 hour delay (probably longer all said and done) I am fairly confident I could get someone out of their seat with 3 hours to work on the individual and "the crowd" and with zero physical contact (probably a lot less than 3 hours).

My lines aren't drawn in sand, but scarred in steel. Violence should be not be tolerated except in defense of ones life.

My personal operation protocol agrees with this.

I do wish to point out the following... sharing embarrassing personal experience.

My wife, Cristina, and I have been together 15 years. Only twice have we had a confrontation where what can be called violence occurred. In both cases, Cristina went off on me. In both cases, my mouth pushed her unfairly to these actions. I say unfairly because I realize that each individual has their own breaking point. When a drunk, verbally abusive asshole, like I was both of these times, pushes the one so far that they respond as Cristina did (the first time she slapped me... somewhere around 2005 and the other time in 2010 when I did the same and she waited until we entered the elevator where she went "feline" on me knowing I could not escape for the 30 floor trip!)

It was soon after that I stopped alcohol altogether. I apologized not just with words, but actions. We have never had such an encounter since. She deserved better and I somehow got the message and did better. I also harmed her in another way... she felt terrible afterwards about her reaction. That it was my fault gave her no solace, even when I apologized. She felt terrible for some time after each event. Fortunately as a testament to her own character, she no longer harbors any feelings about it. Perhaps true apologies are actually only true when actions show the apologies were meant and lasting changes were made.

So when I look at that event, I would not be surprised that one or more of those police (who looked in the videos to have not properly executed the forced removal and perhaps were not in the physical shape to try) feels bad for how it went down. This is not to say they don't regret (if any one of them do) their actions for fear or reprisals... but each one may also be capable of regretting it as a matter of their better character.

In this case too... the Dr. has responsibility - all and only my opinion. Yes... I am wishing for a perfect world. And note I did emphasize the Dr. appears to have a slam dunk case.

Bob

13th April 2017, 15:13

Sam, I have a differing opinion - I don't see this issue as "overbooking". I see it as, the plane was not "over-sold", it was fully seated by paying passengers, legally there.

Below is how I see it and will try to emphasize the points, one by one. My feeling is the Jury will look similarly, when it is clarified the subtleties of over-booking verses kicking out fully legally seated passengers.. (below I will try to emphasize with Caps and/or underlining instead of "color emphasis" on what I believe are the key points so as to try to save some extended dialog/words otherwise that would be needed. As-is the post will be long..) Bear with me as I share my thoughts, understandings and observations.

It was United Airlines wanted their 4 employees to have free travel, at the expense of PAID legally seated passengers. They tried to use the over-booking rules which technically I believe would NOT apply in this case. The legality is that anyone can be tossed off a plane if the Captain says so. If the door is closed one set of rules applies, if the door is open another set of rules applies as far as federal verses local statutes.

The criminality is the physical abuse the passenger suffered. The grey area is that it was NOT over-booking. There were seats for ALL paying passengers I believe.

The lack of judgement was to try to use bump policy (over-booking claims) to get 4 United Employees to "fly for free", instead of putting them on a competitors airline and pay the couple hundred dollars per employee. That is the lack of management judgement I believe.

The lack of compassion for a doctor "legally fully paid and seated passenger"with patients in the morning is a failure completely of all the staff involved. That they tried to use the "bump policy" is scandalous in my opinion to create 4 free seats (non-paying) for their Employees who fly for "free" (no charge to the employees).

The stupidity resulted in United Airlines stock falling hundreds of millions - massive losses.

The stupidity resulted in MANY FLIERS saying to United Airlines, we will NEVER EVER fly on your airline. Massive stupid judgement call by all the ticketing/checkin crew, the on-board crew, any supervisors or managers involved, the Captain for allowing such a stupid travesty, the cops for using brutality on the legally seated and paid passenger..

It was therefore not "overbooking".. It was United wanting to try to get it's employees on board a FULL plane at the expense of some paid passengers. United staff then used manipulation and bullying tactics to force 4 people off the plane, mis-labeling what they were doing as "over-booking". Some gave in, not knowing, that it was not overbooking, but it was a United company decision to try to manipulate 4 people, to bribe them, with eventually the bribes costing "more" than simply moving the 4 employees to another airline's plane and paying full fare for those employees and get on with things safely and tactfully..

The Doctor getting back on the plane it would seem later was his choice because he did not accept the counter-offer, and he stood his personal rights despite the abuse - there was no indication that he was "arrested".

The quasi-grey area is the definition of being a "belligerent passenger" who could risk the safety of the other passengers if and when the "door closed" (another set of rules situation) and the plane took off. This is where the Doctor is seeking the testimony of all the other passengers and the logs, the recordings.. United and the cops would say "belligerent" to attempt to justify their case, the Doctor will no doubt prove by other passenger testimony the Doctor was not of any harm to all, but was himself massively harmed. This I believe is why United is trying to BRIBE ALL the passengers with no doubt a maneuver that will say, see, the passengers ACCEPTED the (read bribe) gift from United and thereby stand by the Airline instead of the Doctor. This is action is what I see as underhanded.

My best guess is, the cops and the flight attendants, INTIMIDATED the Doctor into reacting when he had probably replied that he was legally seated, paid, and needed to get to his patients in the morning.. At that point instead of seeking anyone else, the elderly Doctor (69) was bullied, pushed, and harmed so that he screamed out in pain. (to give United so-called "justification" for booting). In other words, manipulation of the person to get them to react out was used.

It would be a logical business move, in my opinion, put the 4 free flying employees on another airline, at cost.. save a LOT of hassles and dollars that way.

United could have booked their "free flying employees" on any of the other airlines out there, and none of this fiasco would have happened, "this time".. But with a management policy as it is with United Airlines, it would have no doubt happened again somewhere.

==update==

As far as jump seats, it is possible that the stewards/stewardess' already are using them (they are not comfortable seats that passengers have). I haven't studied the crew compliment, but I do agree that United could have put their free flying employees on some other form of transport, such as another airline instead of trying to convince a fully seated plane with legally seated passengers that they were "over-booked". They were not over-booked, they wanted their employees to fly but did NOT tell the people on the plane at the gate that there would be 4 free flying employees who would take their paid for seats. Chances are the doctor would NOT have gotten on the plane if he was selected by "random" (ah hum...)..

Having been a "pilot in command" of an aircraft before, I understand the buck stops with the Captain on the plane.

For instance, first hand experience: My son has been and is "pilot in command" (I tend to feel he has a lot of common sense) and flies for an airline commercially. He's saved a commercial jet plane from crashing in St. Louis a few years ago due to an in-flight massive equipment failure, saving the passengers and himself. He would have never ever allowed a situation to potentially harm a passenger for "company profits". Something that is a concern with all pilots who fly commercially is an unruly passenger potentially risking all the souls on the plane while in-flight. A belligerent passenger is a danger to themselves and crew and plane and the other passengers. If the plane crashes the danger to those on the ground as well if the passenger caused sufficient damage. It is worrisome when something goes from norm to "out of the norm".

Thank God my son has no desire to "Fly United" for that airline. ("Fly United" is one of their buzz word expressions for that company as is "fly the Friendly Skies of United"..)

I would say many pilots are compassionate, and sincere and would have made the correct decision to get a supervisor on the plane, possibly a really good psychologically qualified "specialist" who can negotiate in a tense situation and compassionately look at all viewpoints ..

Some corporate policies could very well be in need of massive over-haul.

RunningDeer

17th April 2017, 13:43

United Airlines Throws Engaged Couple Off Plane
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Published on Apr 17, 2017

A bride and groom headed to Costa Rica for their wedding got kicked off their United flight out of Houston Saturday afternoon, reports CBS Houston affiliate KHOU-TV.

This, in the wake of United coming under intense fire for the contentious removal of a doctor from a plane in Chicago last week, which was caught on video that went viral.

The latest incident took place on United Airlines Flight 1737. The couple, along with friends, were flying from Salt Lake City and had a layover at George Bush Intercontinental Airport.

Michael Hohl, the groom, told KHOU he and his fiancé, Amber Maxwell, were the last to board the plane.

According to Hohl, they noticed a man was spread across their row napping when they approached their seats, 24 B and C.

Not wanting to wake the man, Hohl said, they decided to sit a three rows up, in seats 21 B and C. He said they didn’t think it would matter because the flight was half full with multiple empty rows.

“We thought ‘not a big deal,’ it’s not like we are trying to jump up into a first-class seat,” said Hohl. “We were simply in an economy row a few rows above our economy seat.”
In a Boeing 737-800 like the one the couple was on, United considers Row 21 “economy plus,” an upgrade.

After sitting, Hohl said a flight attendant approached and asked if they were in their ticketed seats. The couple tells KHOU they explained they weren’t and asked if they could get an upgrade, but instead were told they needed to return to their assigned seats.

Hohl said after complying with the flight attendant’s demand, a U.S. Marshall came onto the plane and asked them to get off.

Hohl said they cooperated and got off the plane without incident, but they still don’t understand why.

“They said that we were being disorderly and a hazard to the rest of the flight, to the safety of the other customers,” said Hohl.

United has a different version of what happened. The carrier issued a statement Saturday saying, “These passengers repeatedly attempted to sit in upgraded seating which they did not purchase and they would not follow crew instructions to return to their assigned seats.”

The Reuters news agency reports that the airline, in a statement issued Sunday, denied that a marshal or any other authorities were involved, saying simply, “They were asked to leave the plane by our staff and complied.”

The bride and groom were rebooked for another flight the next morning, but Hohl said they won’t be flying United again and described the whole situation as “quite strange.”

“I think customer service and the airlines has gone real downhill,” said Hohl. “The way United Airlines handled this was really absurb.”

Despite their flight delay, their wedding is still planned for Thursday.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/united-kicks-bride-and-groom-heading-for-their-wedding-off-flight/

*****

VERIFY: Can United kick you off a flight for sitting in an unassigned seat?
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Published on Apr 16, 2017

A bride and groom headed to Costa Rica for their wedding got kicked off their United flight out of Houston. So, we wanted to verify if in fact United Airlines can kick you off a flight for sitting in a seat other than the one you were assigned?

Atlas

10th June 2017, 21:30

Trump supporter removed from United flight in China
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