20 Basic Tactics Used By Narcissists, Sociopaths And Psychopaths To manipulate And Silence A Prey

[Hervé]

The numerous tactics that narcissists, sociopaths and psychopaths use to manipulate and silence you (http://thoughtcatalog.com/shahida-arabi/2016/06/20-diversion-tactics-highly-manipulative-narcissists-sociopaths-and-psychopaths-use-to-silence-you/?utm_source=diversiontacticsmanipu&utm_medium=EVER-1PGER&utm_campaign=everhance)

Shahida Arabi Thought Catalogue (http://thoughtcatalog.com/shahida-arabi/2016/06/20-diversion-tactics-highly-manipulative-narcissists-sociopaths-and-psychopaths-use-to-silence-you/?utm_source=diversiontacticsmanipu&utm_medium=EVER-1PGER&utm_campaign=everhance)
Thu, 30 Jun 2016 00:00 UTC


https://www.sott.net/image/s19/391671/large/20_Diversion_Tactics_800x533.jpg (https://www.sott.net/image/s19/391671/full/20_Diversion_Tactics_800x533.jpg)
Toxic people such as malignant narcissists (http://thoughtcatalog.com/shahida-arabi/2016/04/the-secret-language-of-narcissists-sociopaths-and-psychopaths-how-abusers-manipulate-their-victims/), psychopaths (http://www.manipulative-people.com/malignant-narcissism-at-the-core-of-psychopathy/) and those with antisocial traits (https://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/antisocial-personality-disorder) engage in maladaptive behaviors in relationships that ultimately exploit, demean and hurt their intimate partners, family members and friends. They use a plethora of diversionary tactics that distort the reality of their victims and deflect responsibility. Although those who are not narcissistic can employ these tactics as well, abusive narcissists use these to an excessive extent in an effort to escape accountability for their actions.

Here are the 20 diversionary tactics toxic people use to silence and degrade you.


1. Gaslighting.

Gaslighting is a manipulative tactic that can be described in different variations of three words: "That didn't happen," "You imagined it," and "Are you crazy?" Gaslighting (https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/power-in-relationships/200905/are-you-being-gaslighted) is perhaps one of the most insidious manipulative tactics out there because it works to distort and erode your sense of reality; it eats away at your ability to trust yourself and inevitably disables you from feeling justified in calling out abuse and mistreatment.

When a narcissist, sociopath or psychopath (http://thoughtcatalog.com/shahida-arabi/2016/04/the-secret-language-of-narcissists-sociopaths-and-psychopaths-how-abusers-manipulate-their-victims/) gaslights you, you may be prone to gaslighting yourself as a way to reconcile the cognitive dissonance that might arise. Two conflicting beliefs battle it out: is this person right or can I trust what I experienced? A manipulative person will convince you that the former is an inevitable truth while the latter is a sign of dysfunction on your end.

In order to resist gaslighting, it's important to ground yourself in your own reality - sometimes writing things down as they happened, telling a friend or reiterating your experience to a support network can help to counteract the gaslighting effect (http://narcissisticbehavior.net/the-effects-of-gaslighting-in-narcissistic-victim-syndrome/). The power of having a validating community is that it can redirect you from the distorted reality of a malignant person and back to your own inner guidance.


2. Projection.

One sure sign of toxicity is when a person is chronically unwilling to see his or her own shortcomings and uses everything in their power to avoid being held accountable for them. This is known as projection. Projection is a defense mechanism used to displace responsibility of one's negative behavior and traits by attributing them to someone else. It ultimately acts as a digression that avoids ownership and accountability.

While we all engage in projection to some extent, according to Narcissistic Personality clinical expert Dr. Martinez-Lewi, the projections of a narcissist are often psychologically abusive (http://thenarcissistinyourlife.com/narcissists-projections-are-psychologically-abusive/). Rather than acknowledge their own flaws, imperfections and wrongdoings, malignant narcissists and sociopaths opt to dump their own traits on their unsuspecting suspects in a way that is painful and excessively cruel. Instead of admitting that self-improvement may be in order, they would prefer that their victims take responsibility for their behavior and feel ashamed of themselves. This is a way for a narcissist to project any toxic shame they have about themselves onto another.

For example, a person who engages in pathological lying may accuse their partner of fibbing; a needy spouse may call their husband "clingy" in an attempt to depict them as the one who is dependent; a rude employee may call their boss ineffective in an effort to escape the truth about their own productivity.

Narcissistic abusers love to play the "blameshifting game." Objectives of the game: they win, you lose, and you or the world at large is blamed for everything that's wrong with them. This way, you get to babysit their fragile ego while you're thrust into a sea of self-doubt. Fun, right?

Solution? Don't "project" your own sense of compassion or empathy onto a toxic person and don't own any of the toxic person's projections either. As manipulation expert and author Dr. George Simon (2010) notes in his book In Sheep's Clothing (https://www.amazon.com/Sheeps-Clothing-Understanding-Dealing-Manipulative/dp/1935166301?tag=thougcatal0c-20), projecting our own conscience and value system onto others has the potential consequence of being met with further exploitation.

Narcissists on the extreme end of the spectrum usually have no interest in self-insight or change. It's important to cut ties and end interactions with toxic people as soon as possible so you can get centered in your own reality and validate your own identity. You don't have to live in someone else's cesspool of dysfunction.


3. Nonsensical conversations from hell.

If you think you're going to have a thoughtful discussion with someone who is toxic, be prepared for epic mind****ery rather than conversational mindfulness.

Malignant narcissists (http://thoughtcatalog.com/shahida-arabi/2014/08/5-sneaky-things-narcissists-do-to-take-advantage-of-you/) and sociopaths use word salad (https://littleredsurvivor.com/2015/11/13/narcissistic-word-salad/), circular conversations, ad hominem arguments, projection and gaslighting to disorient you and get you off track should you ever disagree with them or challenge them in any way. They do this in order to discredit, confuse and frustrate you, distract you from the main problem and make you feel guilty for being a human being with actual thoughts and feelings that might differ from their own. In their eyes, you are the problem if you happen to exist.

Spend even ten minutes arguing with a toxic narcissist and you'll find yourself wondering how the argument even began at all. You simply disagreed with them about their absurd claim that the sky is red and now your entire childhood, family, friends, career and lifestyle choices have come under attack. That is because your disagreement picked at their false belief that they are omnipotent and omniscient, resulting in a narcissistic injury (http://samvak.tripod.com/journal86.html).

Remember: toxic people don't argue with you, they essentially argue with themselves and you become privy to their long, draining monologues. They thrive off the drama and they live for it. Each and every time you attempt to provide a point that counters their ridiculous assertions, you feed them supply (http://samvak.tripod.com/faq76.html). Don't feed the narcissists supply - rather, supply yourself with the confirmation that their abusive behavior is the problem, not you. Cut the interaction short as soon as you anticipate it escalating and use your energy on some self-care (https://selfcarehaven.wordpress.com/2014/07/07/the-smart-girls-ten-commandments-of-self-care-and-self-love/) instead.


4. Blanket statements and generalizations.

Malignant narcissists aren't always intellectual masterminds - many of them are intellectually lazy. Rather than taking the time to carefully consider a different perspective, they generalize anything and everything you say, making blanket statements that don't acknowledge the nuances in your argument or take into account the multiple perspectives you've paid homage to. Better yet, why not put a label on you that dismisses your perspective altogether?

On a larger scale, generalizations and blanket statements invalidate experiences that don't fit in the unsupported assumptions, schemas and stereotypes of society; they are also used to maintain the status quo. This form of digression exaggerates one perspective to the point where a social justice issue can become completely obscured. For example, rape accusations against well-liked figures are often met with the reminder that there are false reports of rape that occur. While those do occur, they are rare (http://www.salon.com/2015/06/01/false_reports_of_rape_are_vanishingly_rare_so_why_treat_women_as_liars_by_default/), and in this case, the actions of one become labeled the behavior of the majority while the specific report itself remains unaddressed.

These everyday microaggressions also happen in toxic relationships. If you bring up to a narcissistic abuser that their behavior is unacceptable for example, they will often make blanket generalizations about your hypersensitivity or make a generalization such as, "You are never satisfied," or "You're always too sensitive" rather than addressing the real issues at hand. It's possible that you are oversensitive at times, but it is also possible that the abuser is also insensitive and cruel the majority of the time.

Hold onto your truth and resist generalizing statements by realizing that they are in fact forms of black and white illogical thinking. Toxic people wielding blanket statements do not represent the full richness of experience - they represent the limited one of their singular experience and overinflated sense of self.


5. Deliberately misrepresenting your thoughts and feelings to the point of absurdity.

In the hands of a malignant narcissist or sociopath, your differing opinions, legitimate emotions and lived experiences get translated into character flaws and evidence of your irrationality.

Narcissists weave tall tales to reframe what you're actually saying as a way to make your opinions look absurd or heinous. Let's say you bring up the fact that you're unhappy with the way a toxic friend is speaking to you. In response, he or she may put words in your mouth, saying, "Oh, so now you're perfect?" or "So I am a bad person, huh?" when you've done nothing but express your feelings. This enables them to invalidate your right to have thoughts and emotions about their inappropriate behavior and instills in you a sense of guilt when you attempt to establish boundaries.

This is also a popular form of diversion and cognitive distortion that is known as "mind reading." (http://essex-behavioural-therapy.co.uk/article.asp?topic=mind-reading&id=59) Toxic people often presume they know what you're thinking and feeling. They chronically jump to conclusions based on their own triggers rather than stepping back to evaluate the situation mindfully. They act accordingly based on their own delusions and fallacies and make no apologies for the harm they cause as a result. Notorious for putting words in your mouth, they depict you as having an intention or outlandish viewpoint you didn't possess. They accuse you of thinking of them as toxic - even before you've gotten the chance to call them out on their behavior - and this also serves as a form of preemptive defense.

Simply stating, "I never said that," and walking away should the person continue to accuse you of doing or saying something you didn't can help to set a firm boundary in this type of interaction. So long as the toxic person can blameshift and digress from their own behavior, they have succeeded in convincing you that you should be "shamed" for giving them any sort of realistic feedback.


6. Nitpicking and moving the goal posts.

The difference between constructive criticism and destructive criticism is the presence of a personal attack and impossible standards. These so-called "critics" often don't want to help you improve, they just want to nitpick, pull you down and scapegoat you in any way they can. Abusive narcissists and sociopaths employ a logical fallacy known as "moving the goalposts" (https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/129/Moving_the_Goalposts) in order to ensure that they have every reason to be perpetually dissatisfied with you. This is when, even after you've provided all the evidence in the world to validate your argument or taken an action to meet their request, they set up another expectation of you or demand more proof.

Do you have a successful career? The narcissist will then start to pick on why you aren't a multi-millionaire yet. Did you already fulfill their need to be excessively catered to? Now it's time to prove that you can also remain "independent." The goal posts will perpetually change and may not even be related to each other; they don't have any other point besides making you vie for the narcissist's approval and validation.

By raising the expectations higher and higher each time or switching them completely, highly manipulative and toxic people are able to instill in you a pervasive sense of unworthiness and of never feeling quite "enough." By pointing out one irrelevant fact or one thing you did wrong and developing a hyperfocus on it, narcissists get to divert from your strengths and pull you into obsessing over any flaws or weaknesses instead. They get you thinking about the next expectation of theirs you're going to have to meet - until eventually you've bent over backwards trying to fulfill their every need - only to realize it didn't change the horrific way they treated you.

Don't get sucked into nitpicking and changing goal posts - if someone chooses to rehash an irrelevant point over and over again to the point where they aren't acknowledging the work you've done to validate your point or satisfy them, their motive isn't to better understand. It's to further provoke you into feeling as if you have to constantly prove yourself. Validate and approve of yourself. Know that you are enough and you don't have to be made to feel constantly deficient or unworthy in some way.


7. Changing the subject to evade accountability.

This type of tactic is what I like to call the "What about me?" syndrome. It is a literal digression from the actual topic that works to redirect attention to a different issue altogether. Narcissists don't want you to be on the topic of holding them accountable for anything, so they will reroute discussions to benefit them. Complaining about their neglectful parenting? They'll point out a mistake you committed seven years ago. This type of diversion has no limits in terms of time or subject content, and often begins with a sentence like "What about the time when..."

On a macrolevel, these diversions work to derail discussions that challenge the status quo. A discussion about gay rights, for example, may be derailed quickly by someone who brings in another social justice issue just to distract people from the main argument.

As Tara Moss, author of Speaking Out: A 21st Century Handbook for Women and Girls, notes, specificity is needed in order to resolve and address issues appropriately - that doesn't mean that the issues that are being brought up don't matter, it just means that the specific time and place may not be the best context to discuss them.

Don't be derailed - if someone pulls a switcheroo on you, you can exercise what I call the "broken record" method and continue stating the facts without giving in to their distractions. Redirect their redirection by saying, "That's not what I am talking about. Let's stay focused on the real issue." If they're not interested, disengage and spend your energy on something more constructive - like not having a debate with someone who has the mental age of a toddler.


8. Covert and overt threats.

Narcissistic abusers and otherwise toxic people feel very threatened when their excessive sense of entitlement (http://psychcentral.com/disorders/narcissistic-personality-disorder-symptoms/), false sense of superiority and grandiose sense of self are challenged in any way. They are prone to making unreasonable demands on others - while punishing you for not living up to their impossible to reach expectations.

Rather than tackle disagreements or compromises maturely, they set out to divert you from your right to have your own identity and perspective by attempting to instill fear in you about the consequences of disagreeing or complying with their demands. To them, any challenge results in an ultimatum and "do this or I'll do that" becomes their daily mantra.

If someone's reaction to you setting boundaries or having a differing opinion from your own is to threaten you into submission, whether it's a thinly veiled threat or an overt admission of what they plan to do, this is a red flag of someone who has a high degree of entitlement and has no plans of compromising. Take threats seriously and show the narcissist you mean business; document threats and report them whenever possible and legally feasible.


9. Name-calling.

Narcissists preemptively blow anything they perceive as a threat to their superiority out of proportion. In their world, only they can ever be right and anyone who dares to say otherwise creates a narcissistic injury that results in narcissistic rage (https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/just-listen/201202/rage-coming-soon-narcissist-near-you). As Mark Goulston, M.D. asserts, narcissistic rage does not result from low self-esteem but rather a high sense of entitlement and false sense of superiority.

The lowest of the low resort to narcissistic rage in the form of name-calling when they can't think of a better way to manipulate your opinion or micromanage your emotions. Name-calling is a quick and easy way to put you down, degrade you and insult your intelligence, appearance or behavior while invalidating your right to be a separate person with a right to his or her perspective.

Name-calling can also be used to criticize your beliefs, opinions and insights. A well-researched perspective or informed opinion suddenly becomes "silly" or "idiotic" in the hands of a malignant narcissist or sociopath who feels threatened by it and cannot make a respectful, convincing rebuttal. Rather than target your argument, they target you as a person and seek to undermine your credibility and intelligence in any way they possibly can. It's important to end any interaction that consists of name-calling and communicate that you won't tolerate it. Don't internalize it: realize that they are resorting to name-calling because they are deficient in higher level methods.


10. Destructive conditioning.

Toxic people condition you to associate your strengths, talents, and happy memories with abuse, frustration and disrespect. They do this by sneaking in covert and overt put-downs about the qualities and traits they once idealized (http://thoughtcatalog.com/shahida-arabi/2016/04/the-secret-language-of-narcissists-sociopaths-and-psychopaths-how-abusers-manipulate-their-victims/) as well as sabotaging your goals, ruining celebrations, vacations and holidays. They may even isolate you from your friends and family and make you financially dependent upon them. Like Pavlov's dogs (https://www.psychologistworld.com/behavior/pavlov-dogs-classical-conditioning.php), you're essentially "trained" over time to become afraid of doing the very things that once made your life fulfilling.

Narcissists, sociopaths, psychopaths and otherwise toxic people do this because they wish to divert attention back to themselves and how you're going to please them. If there is anything outside of them that may threaten their control over your life, they seek to destroy it. They need to be the center of attention at all times. In the idealization phase, you were once the center of a narcissist's world - now the narcissist becomes the center of yours.

Narcissists are also naturally pathologically envious (http://unitycounsellingservice.co.uk/understanding-narcissistic-behaviour-narcissist-hates-others-happiness-joy/) and don't want anything to come in between them and their influence over you. Your happiness represents everything they feel they cannot have in their emotionally shallow lives. After all, if you learn that you can get validation, respect and love from other sources besides the toxic person, what's to keep you from leaving them? To toxic people, a little conditioning can go a long way to keep you walking on eggshells and falling just short of your big dreams.


11. Smear campaigns and stalking.

When toxic types can't control the way you see yourself, they start to control how others see you; they play the martyr while you're labeled the toxic one. A smear campaign is a preemptive strike to sabotage your reputation and slander your name so that you won't have a support network to fall back on lest you decide to detach and cut ties with this toxic person. They may even stalk and harass you or the people you know as a way to supposedly "expose" the truth about you; this exposure acts as a way to hide their own abusive behavior while projecting it onto you.

Some smear campaigns can even work to pit two people or two groups against each other. A victim in an abusive relationship with a narcissist often doesn't know what's being said about them during the relationship, but they eventually find out the falsehoods shortly after they've been discarded.

Toxic people will gossip behind your back (and in front of your face), slander you to your loved ones or their loved ones, create stories that depict you as the aggressor while they play the victim, and claim that you engaged in the same behaviors that they are afraid you will accuse them of engaging in. They will also methodically, covertly and deliberately abuse you so they can use your reactions as a way to prove that they are the so-called "victims" of your abuse.

The best way to handle a smear campaign is to stay mindful of your reactions and stick to the facts. This is especially pertinent for high-conflict divorces with narcissists who may use your reactions to their provocations against you. Document any form of harassment, cyberbullying or stalking incidents and always speak to your narcissist through a lawyer whenever possible. You may wish to take legal action if you feel the stalking and harassment is getting out of control; finding a lawyer who is well-versed (https://onemomsbattle.com/resources-attorneys/) in Narcissistic Personality Disorder is crucial if that's the case. Your character and integrity will speak for itself when the narcissist's false mask begins to slip.


12. Love-bombing and devaluation.

Toxic people put you through an idealization phase until you're sufficiently hooked and invested in beginning a friendship or relationship with you. Then, they begin to devalue you while insulting the very things they admired in the first place. Another variation of this is when a toxic individual puts you on a pedestal while aggressively devaluing and attacking someone else who threatens their sense of superiority.

Narcissistic abusers do this all the time - they devalue their exes (https://selfcarehaven.wordpress.com/2014/08/29/dating-emotional-predators-signs-to-look-out-for/) to their new partners, and eventually the new partner starts to receive the same sort of mistreatment as the narcissist's ex-partner. Ultimately what will happen is that you will also be on the receiving end of the same abuse. You will one day be the ex-partner they degrade to their new source of supply. You just don't know it yet. That's why it's important to stay mindful of the love-bombing technique whenever you witness behavior that doesn't align with the saccharine sweetness a narcissist subjects you to.

As life coach Wendy Powell suggests, slowing things down (https://wendypowell.ca/2015/02/03/10-ways-to-discourage-narcissists-from-dating-you-2/) with people you suspect may be toxic is an important way of combating the love-bombing technique. Be wary of the fact that how a person treats or speaks about someone else could potentially translate into the way they will treat you in the future.


13. Preemptive defense.

When someone stresses the fact that they are a "nice guy" or girl, that you should "trust them" right away or emphasizes their credibility without any provocation from you whatsoever, be wary.

Toxic and abusive people overstate their ability to be kind and compassionate. They often tell you that you should "trust" them without first building a solid foundation of trust. They may "perform" a high level of sympathy and empathy at the beginning of your relationship to dupe you, only to unveil their false mask later on. When you see their false mask begins to slip periodically during the devaluation phase of the abuse cycle, the true self is revealed to be terrifyingly cold, callous and contemptuous.

Genuinely nice people rarely have to persistently show off their positive qualities - they exude their warmth more than they talk about it and they know that actions speak volumes more than mere words. They know that trust and respect is a two-way street that requires reciprocity, not repetition.

To counter a preemptive defense, reevaluate why a person may be emphasizing their good qualities. Is it because they think you don't trust them, or because they know you shouldn't? Trust actions more than empty words and see how someone's actions communicate who they are, not who they say they are.


14. Triangulation.

Bringing in the opinion, perspective or suggested threat of another person into the dynamic of an interaction is known as "triangulation." (http://www.thenarcissisticpersonality.com/triangulation/) Often used to validate the toxic person's abuse while invalidating the victim's reactions to abuse, triangulation can also work to manufacture love triangles that leave you feeling unhinged and insecure.

Malignant narcissists love to triangulate their significant other with strangers, co-workers, ex-partners, friends and even family members in order to evoke jealousy and uncertainty in you. They also use the opinions of others to validate their point of view.

This is a diversionary tactic meant to pull your attention away from their abusive behavior and into a false image of them as a desirable, sought after person. It also leaves you questioning yourself - if Mary did agree with Tom, doesn't that mean that you must be wrong? The truth is, narcissists love to "report back" falsehoods about others say about you, when in fact, they are the ones smearing you.

To resist triangulation tactics, realize that whoever the narcissist is triangulating with is also being triangulated by your relationship with the narcissist as well. Everyone is essentially being played by this one person. Reverse "triangulate" the narcissist by gaining support from a third party that is not under the narcissist's influence - and also by seeking your own validation.


15. Bait and feign innocence.

Toxic individuals lure you into a false sense of security simply to have a platform to showcase their cruelty. Baiting you into a mindless, chaotic argument can escalate into a showdown rather quickly with someone who doesn't know the meaning of respect. A simple disagreement may bait you into responding politely initially, until it becomes clear that the person has a malicious motive of tearing you down.

By "baiting" you with a seemingly innocuous comment disguised as a rational one, they can then begin to play with you. Remember: narcissistic abusers (http://thoughtcatalog.com/shahida-arabi/2016/04/the-secret-language-of-narcissists-sociopaths-and-psychopaths-how-abusers-manipulate-their-victims/) have learned about your insecurities, the unsettling catchphrases that interrupt your confidence, and the disturbing topics that reenact your wounds - and they use this knowledge maliciously to provoke you. After you've fallen for it, hook line and sinker, they'll stand back and innocently ask whether you're "okay" and talk about how they didn't "mean" to agitate you. This faux innocence works to catch you off guard and make you believe that they truly didn't intend to hurt you, until it happens so often you can't deny the reality of their malice any longer.

It helps to realize when you're being baited so you can avoid engaging altogether. Provocative statements, name-calling, hurtful accusations or unsupported generalizations, for example, are common baiting tactics. Your gut instinct can also tell you when you're being baited - if you feel "off" about a certain comment and continue to feel this way even after it has been expanded on, that's a sign you may need to take some space to reevaluate the situation before choosing to respond.


16. Boundary testing and hoovering.

Narcissists, sociopaths and otherwise toxic people continually try and test your boundaries to see which ones they can trespass. The more violations they're able to commit without consequences, the more they'll push the envelope. That's why survivors of emotional as well as physical abuse often experience even more severe incidents of abuse each and every time they go back to their abusers.

Abusers (http://www.quotecatalog.com/tags/abuse) tend to "hoover" (http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/hoover-maneuver-the-dirty-secret-of-emotional-abuse-0219154) their victims back in with sweet promises, fake remorse and empty words of how they are going to change, only to abuse their victims even more horrifically. In the abuser's sick mind, this boundary testing serves as a punishment for standing up to the abuse and also for going back to it. When narcissists try to press the emotional reset button, reinforce your boundaries even more strongly rather than backtracking on them.

Remember - highly manipulative people don't respond to empathy or compassion. They respond to consequences.


17. Aggressive jabs disguised as jokes.

Covert narcissists enjoy making malicious remarks at your expense. These are usually dressed up as "just jokes" so that they can get away with saying appalling things while still maintaining an innocent, cool demeanor. Yet any time you are outraged at an insensitive, harsh remark, you are accused of having no sense of humor. This is a tactic frequently used in verbal abuse (http://verbalabusejournals.com/about-abuse/what-is-verbal-abuse/types-of-verbal-abuse/abuse-disguised-joke/).

The contemptuous smirk and sadistic gleam in their eyes gives it away, however - like a predator that plays with its food, a toxic person gains pleasure from hurting you and being able to get away with it. After all, it's just a joke, right? Wrong. It's a way to gaslight you into thinking their abuse is a joke - a way to divert from their cruelty and onto your perceived sensitivity. It is important that when this happens, you stand up for yourself and make it clear that you won't tolerate this type of behavior.

Calling out manipulative people on their covert put-downs may result in further gaslighting from the abuser but maintain your stance that their behavior is not okay and end the interaction immediately if you have to.


18. Condescending sarcasm and patronizing tone.

Belittling and degrading a person is a toxic person's forte and their tone of voice is only one tool in their toolbox. Sarcasm (https://selfcarehaven.wordpress.com/2014/08/29/dating-emotional-predators-signs-to-look-out-for/) can be a fun mode of communication when both parties are engaged, but narcissists use it chronically as a way to manipulate you and degrade you. If you in any way react to it, you must be "too sensitive."

Forget that the toxic person constantly has temper tantrums every time their big bad ego is faced with realistic feedback - the victim is the hypersensitive one, apparently. So long as you're treated like a child and constantly challenged for expressing yourself, you'll start to develop a sense of hypervigilance about voicing your thoughts and opinions without reprimand. This self-censorship enables the abuser to put in less work in silencing you, because you begin to silence yourself.

Whenever you are met with a condescending demeanor or tone, call it out firmly and assertively. You don't deserve to be spoken down to like a child - nor should you ever silence yourself to meet the expectation of someone else's superiority complex.


19. Shaming (http://www.quotecatalog.com/tags/shame).

"You should be ashamed of yourself" is a favorite saying of toxic people. Though it can be used by someone who is non-toxic, in the realm of the narcissist or sociopath, shaming is an effective method that targets any behavior or belief that might challenge a toxic person's power. It can also be used to destroy and whittle away at a victim's self-esteem: if a victim dares to be proud of something, shaming the victim for that specific trait, quality or accomplishment can serve to diminish their sense of self and stifle any pride they may have.

Malignant narcissists, sociopaths and psychopaths enjoy using your own wounds against you - so they will even shame you about any abuse or injustice you've suffered in your lifetime as a way to retraumatize you. Were you a childhood abuse survivor? A malignant narcissist or sociopath will claim that you must've done something to deserve it, or brag about their own happy childhood as a way to make you feel deficient and unworthy. What better way to injure you, after all, than to pick at the original wound? As surgeons of madness (http://thoughtcatalog.com/shahida-arabi/2016/05/the-love-story-of-a-narcissist-and-his-victim/), they seek to exacerbate wounds, not help heal them.

If you suspect you're dealing with a toxic person, avoid revealing any of your vulnerabilities or past traumas. Until they've proven their character to you, there is no point disclosing information that could be potentially used against you.


20. Control.

Most importantly, toxic abusers love to maintain control in whatever way they can. They isolate you, maintain control over your finances and social networks, and micromanage every facet of your life. Yet the most powerful mechanism they have for control is toying with your emotions.

That's why abusive narcissists and sociopaths manufacture situations of conflict out of thin air to keep you feeling off center and off balanced. That's why they chronically engage in disagreements about irrelevant things and rage over perceived slights. That's why they emotionally withdraw, only to re-idealize you once they start to lose control. That's why they vacillate between their false self and their true self, so you never get a sense of psychological safety or certainty about who your partner truly is.

The more power they have over your emotions, the less likely you'll trust your own reality and the truth about the abuse you're enduring. Knowing the manipulative tactics and how they work to erode your sense of self can arm you with the knowledge of what you're facing and at the very least, develop a plan to regain control over your own life and away from toxic people.

Shahida Arabi is the author of the book POWER: Surviving and Thriving After Narcissistic Abuse, available here (https://www.amazon.com/POWER-Surviving-Narcissistic-Collection-Narcissism/dp/1945796324/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1487362609&sr=1-1%3Futm_source%3Darticle-ad-in-house&utm_campaign=power&utm_medium=article-bottom&tag=thougcatal0c-20).

=================================================

Now, compare the above with the "News" the world is being fed with via MSM...never mind the local trolls.

[DeDukshyn]

Where did you get such an exact description of my "Wife" ??!! :shocked:

[joeecho]

This article can be reverse engineered to say virtually everyone has used one or more of these tactics at some point in their lives. Consequently (from reverse engineering), most people have been or are currently are a Narcissist, Sociopath or Psychopath for at least a moment, hour, day, week etc. at some point in their lives.

Good to know, good to know. :bigsmile:

What does they say about me personally? Who me? I have this burden of carrying a halo over my head, somebody has to play the role of the 'exception to the rule', right? ;)

[Andre]

While it may be true that every one of us may use one or more of these dysfunctional traits at one time or another, there is a big difference between doing that occasionally and a person who makes a living out of it which is what about 1 out of every 5 of our corporate and government leaders do.

In addition to people who are inherently sociopathic in nature, we have a pharmaceutical industry that produces over 600 medications (/http://www.spring.org.uk/2016/05/empathy-killed-popular-painkiller.php) with an active ingredient that reduces empathy, thus inadvertently swelling the ranks of sociopaths/psychopaths.

The accepted ratio of sociopaths/psychopaths (almost identical) to the rest of the population at large is 1 in 20, but given that we also know sociopaths/psychopaths gravitate to centers of control and power, it means that at the higher levels the ratio may shrink to 1 in 5. At the very top of the "food chain", say among the ranks of transnational CEOs, Ministers/Secretaries, military Generals and the elite, the ratio be may as high as 1 in 2. These people fall into the largely unrecognized category of successful psychopaths (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/sociopol_ponerology14.htm).

Given that one of the major overt traits of sociopaths/psychopaths is an on-going discrepancy between their words and action, you don't have to be a psychologist to speculate that the vast majority of today's leaders may actually be clinical sociopaths/psychopaths. This suspicion may very well be what is behind the feelings of distrust that have developed around the world towards our political leaders today although we have to also recognize that among the lower ranks this discrepancy is a forced behavior and not intrinsic to their personality.

Here are several obvious reasons why so many people fail to properly understand the real nature of our corporate, government and military leaders:


The sociopathic profiling of society's leadership is a relatively unexplored area in psychology because much of the psychological literature available today focuses on the impact and dynamics of narcissistic and psychopathic behavior within relationships and not on the implications of allowing sociopaths to control society.
It is clinically quite difficult to identify "successful sociopaths" since it requires extended observation.
Intelligent sociopaths can easily disguise their real motivations and values by simulating charm and concern.


When examining this phenomenon in relation to the global elite and the "controllers" of the world, it's also unfortunate that many areas of activism that oppose the status quo rely on strategies and campaigns that pin their hopes on the perpetrators doing the right thing when the best course of action is to make the consequences of their position or actions clear. Of course, this is shifting as we all learn to improve our strategies but there are still many activists out there who fail to recognize this underlying psychology and are doomed to fail because of it. The anti-whaling movement is one example that comes to mind.

[Hervé]

See also this thread: The Rise Of Psychopathy, Ponerization, Terrorism And Where This World "Order" is Headed (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?96642-The-Rise-Of-Psychopathy-Ponerization-Terrorism-And-Where-This-World-Order-is-Headed)

[AutumnW]

Thanks Herve, very interesting. The linked thread had some useful information too, particularly about the effect of using digital devices on the developing child's brain. It's alarming!

[Flash]

There is in fact more than 40 manipulative behaviors psychopaths and sociopaths may have. (All human being do manipulate at times but never as much and with such agility).

Most people have below 15 usual manipulative behaviors. Sociopaths/psychopaths will often have more than 20 and around 30.

They also willingly use generalisations, omissions, selection and other verbal/gramnatical tricks to put you off balance or manipulate you. Once you have learned these, you can notice psychopathy in people.

Add to this discrepancies between non verbal language and words and ther is no mistakes.


The numerous tactics that narcissists, sociopaths and psychopaths use to manipulate and silence you (http://thoughtcatalog.com/shahida-arabi/2016/06/20-diversion-tactics-highly-manipulative-narcissists-sociopaths-and-psychopaths-use-to-silence-you/?utm_source=diversiontacticsmanipu&utm_medium=EVER-1PGER&utm_campaign=everhance)

Shahida Arabi Thought Catalogue (http://thoughtcatalog.com/shahida-arabi/2016/06/20-diversion-tactics-highly-manipulative-narcissists-sociopaths-and-psychopaths-use-to-silence-you/?utm_source=diversiontacticsmanipu&utm_medium=EVER-1PGER&utm_campaign=everhance)
Thu, 30 Jun 2016 00:00 UTC

[Mod-edit: snipped to avoid a long scroll down, Hervé :)]

=================================================

Now, compare the above with the "News" the world is being fed with via MSM...never mind the local trolls.

[AutumnW]

Discrepancy between word and action is probably the most important red flag. And we are all guilty of it on occasion but P's do it all of the time.

[abmqa]

Discrepancy between word and action is probably the most important red flag. And we are all guilty of it on occasion but P's do it all of the time.

Very true!! My ex-gf was guilty of this. It drove us apart pretty quickly.

OMG, I was dating a Psychopath?? I used to tell her that she needed help, badly.

I felt bad for her, but I would not tolerate her actions and called her out each time she did it.

[MythKitty]

This article can be reverse engineered to say virtually everyone has used one or more of these tactics at some point in their lives. Consequently (from reverse engineering), most people have been or are currently are a Narcissist, Sociopath or Psychopath for at least a moment, hour, day, week etc. at some point in their lives.

According to your definition, this absolutely could not be used to describe most people. A person would need to exhibit most of the listed behaviors over an extended period of time to be labeled a psychopath, sociopath, or narcissist.

I once made the mistake of falling in love with a psychopath. His mental abuse happened daily, the physical abuse wasn't as frequent. He is in prison now for child and spousal abuse, and my life has been peaceful since he was arrested. He stalked me for over twenty years.

[petra]

It's so hard to judge a psychopath. I couldn't do it.

In the spirit of disclosure, I'd like to share something I came across I found to be enlightening. It's by Harry Bethel titled Psychopaths Are Not Human http://thechildrenofthecovenant.com/articles/psychopaths-are-not-human/

It is important to understand..... Harry was/is under a lot of stress. Try not to judge him too much. I ended up there because I was in a legal battle and he said psychopathy can be proven (or disproven?) with a properly done MRI. Is it getting snakey yet? Consider the possibilities (or atrocities) if we can detect this with a brain scan.

[DeDukshyn]

This article can be reverse engineered to say virtually everyone has used one or more of these tactics at some point in their lives. Consequently (from reverse engineering), most people have been or are currently are a Narcissist, Sociopath or Psychopath for at least a moment, hour, day, week etc. at some point in their lives.

According to your definition, this absolutely could not be used to describe most people. A person would need to exhibit most of the listed behaviors over an extended period of time to be labeled a psychopath, sociopath, or narcissist.

I once made the mistake of falling in love with a psychopath. His mental abuse happened daily, the physical abuse wasn't as frequent. He is in prison now for child and spousal abuse, and my life has been peaceful since he was arrested. He stalked me for over twenty years.

Chiming in with an old post .... I agree with Joeecho in the sense that yest most people will do actions that those traits can be assigned to at certain points in their life. My experience is that Narcissists / psychopaths, are consistently fulfilling those traits 90% of the time, while a normal person might fulfill those 10% of the time. It is this consistency that those labels refer to -- not merely the fact that one has proceeded on something in one way or another.

My kid's mother for example will go out of her way to make my life difficult 95% of the time any opportunity presents itself to do so, even if it costs her something else. She will sacrifice self integrity, decency, humanity, logic and reason, and even her children's best interest just for the chance to hurt me -- consistently. Everyone can have lapses, and everyone has "bad days", and everyone can "lose it" -- anyone can make mistakes they regret and can learn from. A psychopath / narcissist "doesn't make mistakes" and thuse these actions are well rooted behaviours. A consistent action over time is a behavior. A mistake is an event that is learned from. A narcissist will never learn anything because they are already "perfect" in their demented minds.

I can shut off my emotions if that gains me any certain advantage in any situation or event - this does not make me psychopath. A psychopath can't turn appropriate emotions on (without a whole lot of therapy), even if they wanted to.


I would rather be physically abused (and I have somewhat), than take the never-ending, horrific, emotional, spiritual, and mental abuse I have endured over the years, any day. The worst that a psychopath / narcissist has to offer, is usually not physical.

I'm starting to believe that laws exist to protect the psychopath ... else we could handle it the old fashioned way and put them back in their places ...

[Hervé]

[...]
... Consider the possibilities (or atrocities) if we can detect this with a brain scan.
See this thread: Brainscans and prisoners: Outing the sociopaths and the domino effect (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?66489-Brainscans-and-prisoners-Outing-the-sociopaths-and-the-domino-effect)

[Merlinus]

20 Signs You Are With A "Covert" Narcissist

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-WVLZXLyO-M

His channel has good information on narcissism, and mental health recovery.

[ErtheVessel]

Thanks, Merlinus, for posting Richard Grannon. I just discovered him recently and have found his videos to be really insightful and useful.

[Flash]

I am not sure at all that I like him, I think he is doing pop psychology - what he describes as covert narcissist who is/looks shy for example is rather passive-agressive personnality in the beginning, not necessarily narcissist.

I will be a bit more blunt, later on he does not describes covert narcissist at all, but plain full fledge narcissists. Why subdivising what they are? There is no difference between covert and classic narcissist (who brainwash themselves following Grannon), while covert know they are making stories. I do not believe this, not my experience, a narcissist will brainwash himself at the same time that he will feel off a bit consciously.

Got the feeling that Grannon may be a bit narcissist himself......, too much talk as if he truly knew, for what he actually knows.


20 Signs You Are With A "Covert" Narcissist

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-WVLZXLyO-M

His channel has good information on narcissism, and mental health recovery.

[Flash]

How is narcissim and psychopathy created and used by social media facebooking and tweeting (instagramming) addictions:

To start with, we have to define what narcissim is. But I will put in red, within the description, where facebooking and other social media are involved in creating and using narcissism/psychopathy

The 9 traits of narcissism as described by contemporary psychologie/psychiatry:

2 centuries ago, name egomania:

1. Grandiosity More likes means proving how great I am
2. Arrogant and domineering
3. Preoccupation with success and power Based on number of likes, tweets, who answered, etc
4. Lack of empathy Very common when on social media, since there is no real contact with the interlocutors - i have an example of a little 10 years old having disappeard and people writing on the facebook page for finding him all kinds of comments on the fact that the kid is black
5. Belief of being unique
6. Requiring excessive admiration Once again defined by the numbers of likes, posts, videos one makes, etc
7. Sense of entitlement Having the right to polute the social media stage with stupidities or with misinformation, fake videos, etc.
8. Exploitative Bullying and trolling to make sure one thread or some ideas do not see the light of day
9. Envious of others I see this often on facebook in many subtle ways

Arrogance, grandiosity and preoccupation with success for example are 3 caracteristics encountered in one personnality very prominent in one person would be enough to define him as narcissistic traits personnality. But not enough for full narcissim (this is light)

However, to be clinically diagnosed, you need to have 5 of these domineering your personality at the same time. Add the lack of empathy and you have another row on the ladder. This lack of empathy makes one selfish - they do not care if you are hurt, lack of true feeling such as guilt or remorse, facilitating getting what you want. Because you don't care..... if you have this traits.

Charming, friendly, agreable is often describing what people feel in first encountering a narcissist. However..., they will end up destroyed given time

85 questions to test, to which you can answer yes - be careful, you have to go through all 85 before diagnostic but here a few examples but if you answer yes, five times or more, it could mean that you have traits and a narcissistic personnality, it would be interesting to dig further. For example, to screen for narcissistic personnalities, answering yes to questions such as the following could help defining it:

Do people often fail to appreciate your personal talents? Have people told you you have to high opinion of yourself? Do you think that power, fame or recognition will be yours someday? When you have a problem, do you almost insist on seeing the top person? Is it very important to you that people pay attention to you or admire you in some ways? Do you feel that you deserve special treatment? Do you expect people to do what you want without questioning because of who you are? Do you often step on a few toes to get what you want? Would you say that you are not really interested in other people problems or feelings? Are you often envious of others? Do you find there are very few people that are worth your time or attention?

We can also use these 85 questions and apply them to someone to see if we are dealing with a narcissist.

Narcissist are addicted to a drug namely narcissistic supply. Narcissist are very utilitarian, pragmatic and flexible with X ray vision to diagnose weaknesses, vulnerabilities, predispositions, fears, hopes, emotional leads and to put it to use instantaneously, relentlessly and ruthlessly. Social media are an excellent place of narcissistic supply, to create narcissim and to use narcissistic supply since they are centered around the individual in his bubble

Narcissist often becomes bullies in the workplace, inflicting pain, mainly on those below them, while being nice to the higher ups, (people go into depression, want to comit suicide even if they never thought of it prior, etc). They are predators looking for weaker preys. They are trolls and bullies in the social media space as well

Not holding themselves responsible for the consequences of their actions, they will never regret what they do. They just change threads without regret or troll their way through.

The wet dream of narcissim is to be at the centrer where critical faculties are suspended, where instruments of gratification are ever present, where discipline is maintained, where criticism is reduced or unheard of, a group of unthing, unreflecting, totally obedient people. Cult leaders are amongst those, as well as on the social media space (think Kardashians, Rihanna, or even Oprah's followers).
Social media has created crowds of uncritical, unthinking, followers (obedient) with instant gratification to those successful on social media. Paired with the KING CHILDREN raising in todays society, which creates more narcissism, you have a mix for a very dysfunctional society

A narcissist cannot stand criticism, never criticise, disagree with a narcissist, never hint to the narcissist that he has made an error, that he is ignorant, incapable. We have here the prime example of a group of narcissists/psychopaths who have achieve higher positions of power and who cannot stand critical thinking, criticism, contrary opinions in the actual social media censorhip: only the narcissists CNN like and their unthinking followers are allowed.

Narcissists never admit their fault, never accept responsibilities, they are superior, the authority - we are not (side comment: doesn't it look like Clinton?)

Competent fully emotionally intelligent folks are challenging the narcissists (who think of himself superior, therefore better and more able) by their mere existence, their mere competence, they have nothing else to do. (Hence the lashing on critics or competency shown by some social media experts

We know very well that most psychopaths are narcissistics. The higher on the scale of narcissim (more of the nine caracteristics), the more psychopath one becomes.

[COLOR="red"]My diagnostic: social media creates or encourages narcissim on one hand (through constant narcissistic supply and possibilities of gaining power over others) and creates crowds of uncritical, unthinking followers, the perfect media for psychopaths and narcissists to succeed. It was surely created by narcissists and psychopats and is managed by the same.


source of the descriptions: the 5 last minutes are the most interesting imo - the world expert in narcissism has all the 9 traits. He describes very well how a narcissist or psychopath (when anger gets in) think.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG7rvOsE2ws

[RunningDeer]

The 5 last minutes are the most interesting imo - the world expert in narcissism has all the 9 traits. He describes very well how a narcissist or psychopath (when anger gets in) think.
Cathartic, eye opening and timely reinforcement, Flash. It tied up a number of loose ends. http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/thumbs-2.gif

The 9 traits associated with narcissistic personality disorder begins @ 38:58 (https://youtu.be/sG7rvOsE2ws?t=38m58s).



“We are superior subspecies. We transcend humanity. We are Nietzsche (?) superman. We deserve the subservience and the availability of everyone around us. Luckily, every year 100 million people are born throughout the world. We have 100 million new choices every year.”

“I'm the authority. I’m the supreme authority, and far superior to you. I’m omnipotent.”


http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/images/space-bar-grey.jpg
Transcript:

There are nine traits associated with narcissistic personality disorder:

grandiosity
arrogance
preoccupation with success
lack of empathy
belief of being unique
sense of entitlement
requiring excessive admiration
exploiting others
being envious of others

Until now it seemed as though interviewing someone with all nine traits wasn't realistic. By definition it would make them an extremely dangerous individual. But after two days of interviewing the world’s leading expert on NPD, it soon became clear why Dr. Sam Vaknin (sp?) was such an authority on the subject.


The Self Aware Narcissist




“I've been diagnosed with the narcissists personality disorder and therefore I'm a narcissist. And all the traits that I’ve enumerated before, they exists abundantly within me, I'm afraid.”

We had finally found a level nine narcissist. Sam is unique. He not only has all nine traits but he's been aware of his condition for over 20 years.

Sam: “I'm a self-aware narcissist, which is a rarity. Most narcissism most self-aware. They have no introspection. They don’t have the ability just to step aside and look at themselves and realize that they are the source of their own misfortunes, defeats and troubles. But self-awareness is not like healing. It’s not the same as healing. If one is aware that one is a cocaine addict, that doesn't wean him off the drug.”

In a drastic attempt to cure himself, Sam has lived in a self-imposed exile in Eastern Europe.

Sam: “I was first diagnosed with the narcissistic personality disorder in 1984-5. My narcissism effected each and every field of my life. Cut. Let's start from beginning.”

Sam's authority on the subject is second to none. But filming a level nine narcissist was never going to be easy.

Sam: “I'm not able to sustain long-term relationship. I don't feel I have no emotions that I'm aware of. Just a second, these kids are… Shoot them? I don't know why people aren’t born adults. Absolutely, absolutely an unnecessary state (stage?). I'm unable to work with other people in teams. I am unable to hold on to a job. Actually I am unable to sustain any kind of social interaction. No, no, no. Forget this. It’s very bad.”

Mark (director): “Really?”

Sam: “Cut. Beginning. And the result of course is that I am a social recluse. No. Cut. Cut. Cut. I mean we start again. Let's go make switches.”

“The thing I really miss and that I would have liked to experience is the ability to feel, the ability to emote, and the ability to relate to other people as full fledge three-dimensional individuals, that are so so but I hope it captured the spirit.”

“Oh I feel sad most of the time. I feel depressed most of the time. I wish I were different. I don't think however this is possible. No cut that. Let's stop again.”

Although Sam admits his inability to have any type of emotion, he has a wife, Lydia, who chooses to stay with him despite his condition.

Sam: “Regardless what people might think of us, Lydia and I are compatible. And to some extent I think we're happy.”

Lydia (English is a second language): “Yeah, we give. We exchange. She takes what she needs from me. I take what I need from him. My father was extremely active, so I developed some senses how to cope with him to be you know peaceful, to avoid shouting stuff with a verbal. And up with a physical abuse by his side.”

Sam: “Can you hear?

Mark (director): “The noise is gone”

Sam: “But the noises…”

Lydia: “Why you are so aware of the environment? What does it disturb you? Why does my favorite like that.”

Sam: “I realize it. (?) If the kids scream or music stops.”

Lydia: “Okay look your business. Someone else takes care about. You enough.”

Sam: “But I’m not in control.”

Lydia: “Yes so you know you all.”

Sam: “I must be controlled.

Lydia: “You must control over everything, so if I'm gonna do it.”

Sam: “I must direct, Mark, directing me. I need to be in absolute control. I need to be an absolute control of people. I need to be an absolute control of situations. I am a control freak. You are directing this film. I don't like that. I want to direct this film. You know. I'm the authority. I’m the supreme authority, and far superior to you. I’m omnipotent. You are challenging me not by doing anything. You know you're very nice guy. But you're challenging me by your mere existence, and by your mere position. You know. You're telling me what to do because I need to be in control. And because I'm grandiose in my self perception, I challenge authority all the time. And because I challenge authority unsuccessfully all the time, I rage.”

Sam is able to offer a unique insight into why an extreme narcissist can suddenly rage uncontrollably. As Brian Blackwell's defense claimed that he’d done.

Sam: “When I feel insulted or injured I feel that I I have been negated. That I've been annihilated. I feel that I’m dissolving into molecules. I feel that my very being, the core of my being, my essence is being threatened directly. And I feel that I have to restore, immediately restore balance by nothing less or nothing short of eliminating the source of frustration.

It’s not really vengefulness or vindictiveness. It's a desperate attempt to kill even the slightest hint of criticism or disagreement, threatens the precarious balance that I've created over many years. The balance that constitutes my personality. You are out to destroy and kill me. So I am out to destroy and kill you.”

Dr. Sam Vaknin, Brian Blackwell, and cult leader David Burke are all extreme examples of narcissistic personality disorder. Can they be cured?

Therapists: “It’s very difficult to cure personality disorder. Personality disorder by its very definition is an enduring and stable part of somebody's psychological makeup. But what you can do is that you can help people to control their their traits.”

Sam: “Many therapists and you know mental health professionals will tell you that narcissism is treatable. That it can be either reversed or utterly cured or at least some of the behaviors can be modified and that is largely untrue. Narcissism is the narcissists personality. You can't cure the narcissist because you can't take away his personality.”

It’s estimated that there are as many as six million people worldwide who may be suffering from varying degrees of NPD. But with such an under diagnose condition that number could be far greater.

Therapists: “It’s very difficult to know who exactly has it because by its very definition, if you are narcissistic you think that you are better than other people. You’re great. So you're not going to go to the doctor and complain.”

What is certain is that those diagnosed with narcissistic personalities, in other words, true egomaniacs satisfy their need by preying on others. And for that reason, they will never go hungry.

Sam: “We are superior subspecies. We transcend humanity. We are Nietzsche (?) superman. We deserve the subservience and the availability of everyone around us. Luckily, every year 100 million people are born throughout the world. We have 100 million new choices every year.

[Flash]

Thank you very very much Paula for this transcript.

I have told many people who are the narcissists and how they think throughout time. Nobody, unless they have been a victim, understands. In fact, even the victims victimized themselves further thinking that they have something to do with the narcissist behavior. In fact, they don't. They just existed.

When it is a specialists in the field who is narcissist and tells them, people suddenly believe it. (the irony: even if it comes from a declared narcissist).

The damage caused by narcissists and psychopaths / sociopaths is just unbelievable. It takes years and years to repair a narcissist impact on oneself. It is extremely difficult to get back up and worst when children are involved. Plus the years lost with them.

What is not said here, is that narcissists and psychopaths are empty shell, in fact the narcissistic traits are there to replace a real personnality. They are inner marshmallows that may melt at any time. They will do anything for this not to happen. And this means destroying and stealing the energies and work of others.

And this includes stealing, manipulating relentlessly, lying, imitating, despising, putting down, brainwashing, up to physical violence if needed (the intelligent one manage it in ways not to be caught) and killling if necessary. We can see that most politicians have many traits and behaviors. The heads of SES and bureaucrats of governments as well.

[RunningDeer]

These suggestion are applicable in many settings. http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/construction.gif


10 Ways to Discourage Narcissists from Dating You




It is easy to get caught up in the whirlwind of a new relationship and suddenly realize that your whole world has changed. With a narcissist it is important to be very aware at the beginning and not let this happen.


This is kinda a good news, bad news:


The good news is that this information will help you side step a relationship with a narcissist, someone that can wreak havoc on your life for decades.

The bad news is that your next new relationship might not work out. Keep in mind you donʼt always want relationships to “work out”; some of them can be bad for you.



http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/Empower/date-narcissits.jpg
by Wendy Powell
[article (https://wendypowell.ca/2014/02/08/10-ways-to-discourage-narcissists-from-dating-you/)]

If youʼve ever ended up with a narcissist before, or if you are out there in the dating world, these are some of the things that you should be aware of when you begin to date someone new. These tips may keep you from realizing that you have been “captured” by a narcissist.

1. In initial conversations make sure you ask them as many questions as they ask you. Wait for an answer. If they say that they like something, ask a more specific question.

Why this is important?

Narcissists actually probe you for information so that they can learn as much about you as possible. By asking them questions, you force them to tell you about themselves. This slows down the process of them collecting data and allows you an opportunity to determine if they are lying.

For example, you say, “I love dancing the Macarena” They reply, “I do too!” You can ask, “Where do you usually go dancing?” This next direct question forces them to be more specific. The first set of lies is very simple, but the more detailed the questions the more likely you will catch them in a lie. Also, it can put them off balance and make them less attracted to you.

It is important in any relationship that there be reciprocity, so asking someone about themselves as much as they ask you, is a good thing.

2. Never reveal personal or private information early. The rule of thumb is that if you wouldnʼt tell everyone at work, it is not something to share in the first couple of weeks of a relationship.

Why this is important?

Sharing personal information has two effects. The first is that it gives you a sense of intimacy with this person. Exchanging private information is one of the ways that we get close to someone. Narcissists use this method to get close fast. Getting really close to someone before you know them is never a good thing. The second problem is that sensitive material can be used against you and if the person turns out to be a narcissist you will regret sharing things that you did not want everyone to know.

Realize we all crave intimacy. There is a strong urge to reveal things to the same level as someone else. It is good to base any relationship on trust and intimacy and these things take time. There will be time in the future to share these details if this is the right person.

3. Donʼt fight for the relationship right at the beginning. If someone that you are just starting to date tells you that their friends or family would not approve of your relationship or if they let you know that they are leaving town or that they are worried about you breaking up with them right away it is a warning sign. They are looking for assurances, way before it is reasonable, for you to say that you would not leave. If for any reason, the relationship seems to have opposition or an expiry date, see it as a red flag. Statements like, “This is just a summer fling” are a warning sign.

Why this is important?

Think of dating a narcissist as a job interview. They want someone that will be there for the long haul. They want to know that you will go the extra mile to make the relationship work. All of these things are desirable in a good, long-term relationship, but they show you are desperate in the short term. Narcissists are attracted to someone that is too desperate to easily leave any relationship, even a bad one.

If their friends or family wouldnʼt approve, why would you want to be with someone when you would be an outcast or disliked? If the person you just started dating may have to leave town for a job or to go back to school, recognize that it is too early to make that kind of commitment and donʼt. These situations can also be a ploy. If you move to another town with them early in the relationship they have you trapped because you are relying on them for everything and none of your friends or family are around.

If early on you get the impression that there might be opposition to your relationship or an expiry date you are being pressured to make a commitment prematurely.

4. Maintain your private time. If you are being flooded with attention it may initially feel like you are loved. This is not the case. A narcissist will flood you with attention as a way of controlling you. You get used to this level of attention and then you expect it, long after it is taken away. Try to not respond to the multiple texts, messages and calls. Donʼt respond until it is convenient. Constantly interrupting your time with other people is one of the ways that narcissists distance you from your friends.

Why this is important?

Narcissists need constant nourishment from others. They are trying to figure out if you are the one that is going to give it to them. By not giving it to them, you are less likely to be pursued.

A person that actually loves you, respects your right to privacy, time with your friends and your need to have time to yourself.

5. Keep seeing your friends, doing your hobbies and pursuing your interests. If your new dating partner insists on seeing you every minute, it as a sign of pathology not adoration. The beginning of a relationship is too early to be spending most of your time with someone.

It is one thing to say, “Iʼm going to the movies with friends.” But if someone you have just started dating digs for more detail: which friends, which theatre, which movie, are you going out afterwards?

It is best to not give it. “Hiding” information from a narcissist will drive them crazy and they will not want to date you.

Why this is important?

The ultimate goal of a narcissist is to have you all to themselves. This is part of the control that they have over their partners because the narcissist manages to eliminate everyone else from your life as much as possible. Having only one person in your life makes you very dependent on this person.

Realize you may want to be “good” and not realize that you are wired to “obey” when someone asks you to do something.

In a healthy relationship your partner will want you to be happy and having friends, hobbies and interests is a large part of that.

6. Maintain your private space. Agreeing to have someone move in right away, or suddenly noticing that one “sleep over” has resulted in the person never leaving is a major red flag. You should make other plans and tell them that you want to go out with your friends and that they canʼt stay at your place.

Why this is important?

This is just one element of how a narcissist moves in and takes control of your life. Suddenly, you will realize that they are living at your place full time. The longer they are there before you stand your ground the more difficult it becomes to maintain your space. Having someone move in right away does not allow time for you to balance this new relationship with the other priorities in your life.
Realize you are fighting biology here.

We instinctively want others around. It feels good to have company.
Quality relationships are not based on spending as much time together as quickly as possible. They are based on mutual respect for each otherʼs lives and priorities.

7. Resist the urge to “take care of someone” you just met. If someone tells you early in a relationship that they have come upon bad times at work, in health, a tragedy, ask yourself why you want to take care of them and why there is no one else in their lives to fulfill this role.

Why this is important?

This is one of the tactics that narcissists use to get close to you. Examples are, “Iʼve just lost my job and have no money”. “I was living with my last lover and I ended it, so I have no place to live”. “I just moved into town and have been living on a friendʼs sofa but Iʼve outstayed my welcome”. If they say that they just got out of a bad relationship with an awful person, insist that you donʼt want to be their rebound person and move away quickly.

Realize that you are fighting instincts here. We all want to pick up the fallen bird and nurse it back to health. Healthy relationships are between two self-sufficient individuals. If this person cannot support themselves now, they are unlikely to take care of their half of the responsibility in a relationship.

8. We all like to dream and plan, but the beginning of a relationship is a bad time to be planning to be together forever. Try the phrase, “I think we are getting ahead of ourselves”. This allows you to be honest and can be used like this: “Yes, I would love to move to New York City with you and pursue my comedy career, but I think we are getting ahead of ourselves.”

Why this is important?

One of the tactics narcissists use to keep you from leaving is to point out that you “agreed” to this relationship and wanted this relationship from the beginning. Now you are a “quitter” or “selfish” or “mean” if you are just abandoning this dream. Often, the dream was premature.

It is good to have dreams and long term plans together but these should be based on a solid relationship, not an elusive goal that is agreed upon before all of the facts are in.

9. Pay attention to how your date treats others. Ask yourself if you want to be treated that way.

Why this is important?

Narcissists often think that they are justified belittling those around them. They think that they are superior and therefore they can treat others badly. In any relationship, how your partner treats others can be how they will treat you — eventually. A nice person has respect for others and respect for you and treats people accordingly.

10. Focus on reciprocity. If they compliment you, compliment them back. If they ask about you, ask about them. If they do something for you, do it for them.

Why this is important?

Ideally, we all want good relationships. Keeping things in balance is a good starting point for a relationship based on mutual support. By treating them exactly how they treat you, you will become aware of whether or not it “feels normal”. For instance, if they buy you several gifts and it feels abnormal to buy someone you just met that many gifts, you realize that this is a red flag.

This method helps you see past the joy you felt in receiving the gifts and puts them in context. If you feel like you are being disingenuous complimenting them repeatedly, realize that their level of compliments may be abnormal and this is certainly a red flag.


http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/images/space-bar-grey.jpg

It is easy to get caught up in the whirlwind of a new relationship and suddenly realize that your whole world has changed. With a narcissist it is important to be very aware at the beginning and not let this happen.

This is kinda a good news, bad news type of post.

The good news is that this information will help you side step a relationship with a narcissist, someone that can wreak havoc on your life for decades.

The bad news is that your next new relationship might not work out. Keep in mind you donʼt always want relationships to “work out”; some of them can be bad for you.

[Flash]

another quite short but quite interesting video


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLCPDYt1wYk

[RunningDeer]

Defense Against the Psychopath

This is an empowering 37 minute video divided into 4 sections. An outline is provided below with time stamp. It provides knowledge and tools on how to prevent psychopaths from surreptitiously controlling your life.

The narrator explains that there are two choices in dealing with them: attack or evade. In attack, you need to be in a power position with support to back you. With evasion, avoid them if possible. It's best to remember that they can't be saved. In fact, empathy and pity would only enrage them.


MgGyvxqYSbE

Part One:

Key Characteristics @ 1:41 (https://youtu.be/MgGyvxqYSbE?t=1m41s)

Lack of Empathy
Lack of Remorse
Superficiality
Grandiosity
Irresponsibility
Impulsive Behavior
Compulsive Lying
Manipulative
Anti-Social Behavior


Part Two:

Common Types of Psychopaths @ 10:30 (https://youtu.be/MgGyvxqYSbE?t=10m30s)

Narcissists
The Victim
Con Artists
Malevolent Psychopaths
Professional Psychopaths
Secondary Psychopaths


Part Three:

Method of Operation @ 24:38 (https://youtu.be/MgGyvxqYSbE?t=24m38s)

The Interview
The Seduction
Divide and Conquer
Fear and Tyranny


Part 4:

Defense Against a Psychopath @ 30:06 (https://youtu.be/MgGyvxqYSbE?t=30m06s)

Facing Evil
Recognition
What Not To Do
Attack
Evade

[Bob]

Also, the psychopathic STALKER .. and the danger such poses to the one's being stalked, family, and society which potentially allows a hidden psychopath to abuse/harm others by not realizing the seriousness of the danger.

[Flash]

The bastards, they thought of everything, even making sure the next generations become more narcissistic (leading to psychopathy) than ever



Analysis of some 14,000 college student surveys over the last three decades finds that self-reported levels of empathy for others have decreased. Steve Mirsky reports


As you get jostled in the daily rough and tumble, does it feel like other people care less about how rough you have it and how much you’re getting tumbled? Well, your suspicion may have some data to back it up. Because according to an article in Scientific American Mind magazine, analysis of surveys of college kids reveals that self-reported empathy has been dropping for the last 30 years. And empathy really took a nosedive in the last 10 years. [Jamil Zaki, "What, Me Care?"]

Nearly 14,000 student questionnaires that were completed in the last three decades were used for the study. And 75 percent of those surveyed today rated themselves as being less empathic than what was the average score 30 years ago.

One possible explanation is social isolation—we tend to do more things on our own and engage in fewer group activities than we used to. Another possible cause is a decrease in reading fiction for pleasure. Studies have found that the number of stories preschoolers read correlates with their ability to understand other people’s emotional states. The good news is that if empathy can go down, it can also go back up. You feel me?

—Steve Mirsky
https://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode/self-reported-empathy-dropped-over-10-12-28/



As discussed previously, narcissism, which is negatively correlated with empathy, has been rising in American college students over a similar time period (Twenge et al., 2008).

Behaviors and attitudes have also shifted in a direction that may be consistent with declines in empathy.

For example, in a 2006 survey, 81% of 18- to 25-year-olds said that getting rich was among their generation’s most important goals; 64% named it as the most important goal of all. In contrast, only 30% chose helping others who need help (Pew Research Center, 2007).

Indeed, critics of the current generation of young adults have given them a variety of derogatory nicknames, ranging from “Generation Me” (Twenge, 2006) to the “Look At Me” generation (Mallan, 2009).

Their overall message has been consistent: Young adults today compose one of the most self-concerned, competitive, confident, and individualistic cohorts in recent history.
https://genius.com/Dr-sara-h-konrath-why-is-empathy-decreasing-annotated



Empathy: College students don't have as much as they used to
May 27, 2010

ANN ARBOR, Mich.—Today's college students are not as empathetic as college students of the 1980s and '90s, a University of Michigan study shows.

The study, presented in Boston at the annual meeting of the Association for Psychological Science, analyzes data on empathy among almost 14,000 college students over the last 30 years.

"We found the biggest drop in empathy after the year 2000," said Sara Konrath, a researcher at the U-M Institute for Social Research. "College kids today are about 40 percent lower in empathy than their counterparts of 20 or 30 years ago, as measured by standard tests of this personality trait."

Konrath conducted the meta-analysis, combining the results of 72 different studies of American college students conducted between 1979 and 2009, with U-M graduate student Edward O'Brien and undergraduate student Courtney Hsing.

Compared to college students of the late 1970s, the study found, college students today are less likely to agree with statements such as "I sometimes try to understand my friends better by imagining how things look from their perspective" and "I often have tender, concerned feelings for people less fortunate than me."

In a related but separate analysis, Konrath found that nationally representative samples of Americans see changes in other people's kindness and helpfulness over a similar time period.
http://ns.umich.edu/new/releases/7724-empathy-college-students-don-t-have-as-much-as-they-used-to

[onawah]

I just found a great new source of info on narcissim:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCu2hbpsUW3qPkfR32OkKCkg/videos

[RunningDeer]

I just found a great new source of info on narcissim:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCu2hbpsUW3qPkfR32OkKCkg/videos

Sam Vaknin is the same person in Flash’s post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?97293-20-Basic-Tactics-Used-By-Narcissists-Sociopaths-And-Psychopaths-To-manipulate-And-Silence-A-Prey&p=1215142&viewfull=1#post1215142) which includes a video called "Shocking full documentary - narcissism / narcissistic personality disorder". I transcribed (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?97293-20-Basic-Tactics-Used-By-Narcissists-Sociopaths-And-Psychopaths-To-manipulate-And-Silence-A-Prey&p=1215162&viewfull=1#post1215162) it beginning @ 38:58.

[onawah]

Thanks Running Deer. He has lots more video talks on his site. He seems very determined to give ALL the low-down on narcissists. Very helpful! :lol:

[RunningDeer]

Thanks Running Deer. He has lots more video talks on his site. He seems very determined to give ALL the low-down on narcissists. Very helpful! :lol:

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/write.gif onawah, thanks for the YouTube site. I've listened to three already and I'm downloading others. It's great to have this information available to the public. It'll save years of emotional angst.

[onawah]

Agreed! 100%! :hug:




Thanks Running Deer. He has lots more video talks on his site. He seems very determined to give ALL the low-down on narcissists. Very helpful! :lol:

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/write.gif onawah, thanks for the YouTube site. I've listened to three already and I'm downloading others. It's great to have this information available to the public. It'll save years of emotional angst.

[onawah]

This is actually not Sam Vaknin's youtube page, but it looks like it has all the talks about narcissism on it from Sam Vaknin. (For the sake of clarity.)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCu2hbpsUW3qPkfR32OkKCkg/videos



I just found a great new source of info on narcissim:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCu2hbpsUW3qPkfR32OkKCkg/videos
Sam Vaknin is the same person in Flash’s post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?97293-20-Basic-Tactics-Used-By-Narcissists-Sociopaths-And-Psychopaths-To-manipulate-And-Silence-A-Prey&p=1215142&viewfull=1#post1215142) which includes a video called "Shocking full documentary - narcissism / narcissistic personality disorder". I transcribed (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?97293-20-Basic-Tactics-Used-By-Narcissists-Sociopaths-And-Psychopaths-To-manipulate-And-Silence-A-Prey&p=1215162&viewfull=1#post1215162) it beginning @ 38:58.

[RunningDeer]

Yes, Jerry Graves (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCu2hbpsUW3qPkfR32OkKCkg/videos) is uploading others' works on his channel. Here’s Sam Vaknin’s YouTube channe (https://www.youtube.com/user/samvaknin/videos)l.


This is actually not Sam Vaknin's youtube page, but it looks like it has all the talks about narcissism on it from Sam Vaknin. (For the sake of clarity.)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCu2hbpsUW3qPkfR32OkKCkg/videos

[Bob]

Natalie and Paula you two are by all means my two favorites, brilliant and compassionate and willing to share with the group. Christine you know I fully believe in you too ! Hugs and hugs. Bob

[onawah]

Hugs all around!!! :grouphug:
Hugs and hugs. Bob

[RunningDeer]

Hugs and hugs. Bob

Hugs all around!!! :grouphug:
And more hugs all around. http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/earthhug.gif

♡

[onawah]

This is kind of weirdly fascinating. Sam Varkin, the self-admitted narcissist in this video introduces his main supply of energy, his wife.
jPDyNvtA9s8

[onawah]

Weird but very amusing conversation with self-diagnosed narcissist Sam Vaknin and his wife Lidija
dETUK_u4R1o
I actually kind of like Sam in this video. You can see that he has a good sense of humor about himself.
In most of his other videos he is so deadly serious it is almost like watching someone hang himself.
And it was pretty incomprehensible to me (and I'm sure to others) how his wife could have tolerated being married to him.
But I can see that they probably have a certain amount of fun with each other.
Perhaps there is hope for narcissists and their empathic supply victims! :clapping: (Or not...) :lol:

[onawah]

Sam Vaknin is interviewed and describes his journey of self-discovery as a narcissist and educator in a field which has only recently been explored, and much of the current information about narcissism, apparently, can be attributed to him. Fascinating!
sU305NqXT94

update: Though this is off-topic, I feel compelled to insert into at least one of these threads about narcissism some information about what amazing potential human beings have, even if we are dysfunctional. I do not accept the premise that narcassism cannot be healed, just that we don't know enough yet about how it can and no doubt has been accomplished. And the proof is just to what great lengths the elite have to go in their attempts to control the rest of us.
NbwVl-_nKNU

[Flash]

This is kind of weirdly fascinating. Sam Varkin, the self-admitted narcissist in this video introduces his main supply of energy, his wife.
jPDyNvtA9s8

Sooo interesting. He says literally that he is not human. Which I believe is also the case lf the 1% Cabal Elite.

The trait: lack of heart, imitation of human traits, traits they do not own. Their creativity must consequently be rather limited. We, in facts, are much stronger. We have to recognise it and take our rightful power back

[onawah]

Death of Capitalism Leads to Rise of Narcissism
Sam Vaknin
Published on Sep 6, 2018

"Original interview posted on the Spartan Life Coach channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KK_a2...
Capitalism is being replaced with feudalism and leads to the inevitable rise of narcissism.
First of several conversations between Richard Grannon and Sam Vaknin."

jjaitWUEPPE

[onawah]

A warning from Narcissim expert (and self-admitted Narcissist) Sam Vaknin (and he should know...)
Though I think he sees only a small part of the big picture, his unique perspective is useful and can be helpful in understanding one aspect of the transformation that humanity is currently undergoing.
"Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand."
...Daniel 12:10 Bible, King James version
-gjmR3e-leo

[Hervé]

7 things covert psychopaths, narcissists and sociopaths do differently (https://blogs.psychcentral.com/recovering-narcissist/2018/10/covert-sociopaths-and-narcissists)

Shahida Arabi, M.A. PsychCentral Blog (https://blogs.psychcentral.com/recovering-narcissist/2018/10/covert-sociopaths-and-narcissists)
Thu, 01 Nov 2018 10:15 UTC


https://www.sott.net/image/s24/495663/large/shutterstock_581928952.jpg (https://www.sott.net/image/s24/495663/full/shutterstock_581928952.jpg)
© Shutterstock


The only truly effective method for dealing with a sociopath you have identified is to disallow him or her from your life altogether. Sociopaths live completely outside of the social contract, and therefore to include them in relationships or other social arrangements is perilous.
~ Dr. Martha Stout, The Sociopath Next Door When many of us think of malignant narcissists, sociopaths and psychopaths, the image of the egotistical megalomaniac is called to mind: overly proud, boastful, arrogant, vain, self-centered, even violent, depending on how psychopathic we think they might be. Yet many of the most conniving and dangerous manipulators are not overt in their tactics - and their violence does not leave visible scars.

Predators who fly under the radar are able to so because they disguise their tactics behind false humility, a convincing facade and an arsenal of underhanded tactics meant to keep their victims bewildered, gaslighted and striving to regain the abuser's approval.

Here are seven ways covert malignant narcissists, sociopaths, and psychopaths differ from their more overt counterparts.

1. They apologize strategically to keep you hooked
It is a common misconception that those who have narcissistic or even sociopathic tendencies never take accountability for their actions. While it's true that more overt narcissists rage at any perceived slight and suffer narcissistic injury, covert manipulators are able to keep their contempt in check if it means sustaining a relationship or furthering an agenda. For example, an abusive relationship partner may still apologize and acknowledge what they did wrong if they find it more convenient than to disagree.

They will not, however, actually change their abusive behavior - their apologies, accompanied by crocodile tears or pity ploys - are given out only to maintain the image of accountability, not to actually follow through with their promises to change or improve. As Dr. Sharie Stines (2017) notes, when a narcissist apologizes to a partner, "He {or she} is not truly sorry; he is managing your relationship and managing his appearance to others. He doesn't care how his behavior has impacted you, and he never will. He just knows that by apologizing he appears to care and he now has a "trump card" or "get out of jail free card" to use if you try to hold him accountable for his behavior."

This is why the abuse cycle can go on for so long - victims struggle with understanding the true intent behind their abuser's covert aggression. As manipulation expert Dr. George Simon (2008) writes:
These individuals are not openly aggressive in their interpersonal style. In fact, they do their best to keep their aggressive intentions and behaviors carefully masked. They can often appear quite charming and amiable, but underneath their civil facade they are just as ruthless as any other aggressive personality...They are very actively aggressive personalities who know how to keep their aggressive agendas carefully cloaked. Dealing with them is like getting whiplash. You don't know how badly you've been taken advantage of until long after the damage is done. 2. They rage covertly, engaging in underhanded sabotage and put-downs
Master manipulators are sophisticated in how they rage. They choose when and where to rage (usually with no witnesses involved) in order to further isolate the victim. They also choose who to abuse. Unlike overt narcissists who rage more indiscriminately, covert malignant narcissists usually pick their most intimate partners and loved ones to drop their mask around behind closed doors (Goulston, 2012). While they still leave a trail of victims, these victims are less likely to be believed simply because covert malignant narcissists know how to work a room and dupe the public into believing in their false mask.

Covert narcissists, sociopaths, and psychopaths prefer to rage through their actions rather than outright outbursts. If they perceive that you are moving forward without them, surpassing them in any way, or "daring" to be independent of them, they will strive to regain control. While they appear calm, composed, or happy for you, they will attempt to sabotage you behind the scenes and systematically and diabolically interfere with your well-being to get their own needs met. They may pretend to have your best interest at heart, all while sadistically planning to undermine you.

It is common, for example, for these toxic types to ruin a big celebration or deprive their victims of sleep before an important interview by stirring up chaos beforehand, or to rain on someone's parade out of pathological envy. They prefer to condition you over time to associate positive events with their punishment so that you are no longer able to feel as fulfilled or joyful pursuing the activities which make you independent of them.

The conniving manipulator also dishes out covert put-downs, chronic degradation, callous comparisons to others and cruel remarks to keep you walking on eggshells and begging for their validation and approval.This is done in a far subtler manner and the effects are long-lasting due to the level of cognitive dissonance this evokes. The victim is forced to sift through the fog of gaslighting and confusion to even determine that they are being abused at all.

Former FBI agent and expert on dangerous personalities, Joe Navarro, describes how these covert put-downs operate to diminish a victim's sense of self, reality, and self-worth:
The manipulator will make carefully chosen insinuating comments to evoke an uncomfortable emotional response or even several responses at once. He knows your weaknesses and your hot-buttons, and he will enjoy dropping a bomb like this and watching the fallout. If someone says something that has multiple negative meanings and causes negative emotions while leaving you flummoxed and without a meaningful response, you've experienced it. 3. They set up their victims elaborately, rigging the game while dangling the carrot
Malignant narcissists, sociopaths, and psychopaths see everything as a competition and a game - and they rig the game early on so they appear to be the winners. Dangling the carrot is one of the ways they maintain control and ensure they come out on top. If they can make their victims believe that they are in for a fantasy relationship or business partnership, they can get their own needs met without having to fulfill their part of their bargain.

Everything they "set up" for their victims is an elaborate ruse to get them invested in a relationship or partnership with them before pulling the plug or the rug up from under their feet. They engage in hot-and-cold, push-and-pull behavior frequently in order to maintain control over their targets. They harm in order to "rescue" - to get you addicted to their validation and comfort after incidents of abuse.

That is why narcissists in relationships love-bomb and dote on their victims early on, take their victims out on lavish dates, promise their victims the world, plan dream vacations, only to later ruin these plans, abandon and devalue their victims. Victims become so hooked on crumbs and promises that they over-invest in the narcissist, hoping for the positive return. Instead, what they incur are major losses while the covert narcissist rides off gleefully into the sunset.

To add salt to the wound, it is common for covert sociopaths to taunt their victims by giving everything they promised them to another target they're grooming - simply to sadistically rub it in their faces. First, they dangle the carrot, then they give the carrot to someone else to make you feel like the defective one. This is a form of "triangulation" which heightens their sense of power over the harem of men and women they keep to enable them.

This "dangling of the carrot" can also occur in contexts outside of intimate relationships, like the workplace. Corporate psychopaths "dangle the carrot" of a possible promotion, raise or opportunity to get you to work harder for an outcome that they never plan to deliver on. They may instead reward someone else to make you feel like you were the problem all along. These petty manipulations would never cross the minds of normal, empathetic beings, but they are all part of the elaborate mental chess games malignant narcissists thrive on.

These predatory types are always looking out for their own self-interest at the expense of everyone else's needs or basic rights. They set up their victims for failure, always moving the goal posts so that their victims are left disoriented and unable to fight back. These elaborate set-ups are all just a ploy to get inside your head, plant seeds of self-doubt, and to terrorize and traumatize you.

4. They are convincing pathological liars
Covert predators are able to lie and deceive with alarming ease, some even to the extent of passing lie detector tests. Yet their lies are not as easily spotted as the lies of your more garden-variety manipulator. That's because these types lie with a nugget of truth - enough truth to keep their victims off-balance and doubting their own reality.

As Dr. Staik (2018) writes in her article, "15 Reasons Narcissists and Sociopaths Lie," these lies often serve the purpose of trapping victims:
Lies are used to lure prey, to emotionally manipulate them, to put them on emotional roller coasters, and to get their hopes up only to later snatch them away, again and again. Lies and illusions big and small are how a narcissist's props up their false image of themselves as a supreme dream fulfiller - and traps others into believing their "lies," so much so, that they get others to collude with them, and join in duping and fooling new converts, such as occurs in cults. Predators know what to morph into, what to say, and when. They relish fabricating illusions of promises they never intend to keep. Predatory narcissists also experience "duping delight" when they are able to pull the wool over the eyes of their victims - some lie for no other reason than the pleasure of being able to con someone (Ekman, 2009). As master gaslighters, they lie with a convincing amount of conviction and feigned emotion. Their lies are often perfectly tailored towards what they know their victims will want to hear and will want to believe - which is why they get away with their falsehoods for such long periods of time.

5. They hide their double lives with more ease and no empathy
Murderers Chris Watts, Philip Markoff (the Craigslist Killer), and Scott Peterson were all revealed to have been living double lives which no one would've ever suspected them of living otherwise. They all appeared to be eerily "normal." Emile Cilliers attempted the murder of his wife twice and was also revealed to have had affairs with other women, even to the extent of planning a new life with one of them. His wife expressed shock that he could go so far as to plan her murder. By all accounts, these predators appeared to have happy relationships and were able to fool society with their charismatic public image.

This is common with wolves in sheep's clothing; they can be pillars of the community, upstanding citizens and doting husbands or wives up until the point where their most violent crimes are exposed.

Yet the lengthy deception involved in these cases will come to no surprise to those who have lived with and have married covert malignant narcissists. The secret lives of covert sociopaths consist of multiple affairs, crimes, and numerous lies built up over time which do not unravel until their most horrific deeds were finally uncovered.

A propensity for double lives is intrinsic to their disorder. Psychopaths are prone to boredom and have a high need for stimulation. The psychopathic brain has been studied to show structural and functional abnormalities in the prefrontal cortex and amygdala, parts of the brain responsible for moral reasoning, empathy, guilt as well as anxiety and fear (Motzkin, et. al 2011).

A lack of moral qualms, an absence of fear and a constant need for thrill is quite a dangerous combination when a psychopath is involved. Extramarital affairs, dangerous activities, risky behaviors are all "food" for a hungry, voracious psychopath who requires larger and larger amounts of danger in order to feel satiated. Their levels of sexual depravity and conscienceless behavior know no bounds - simply because they do not have any boundaries to hold them back.

6. Their facade is very convincing and alluring
The covert psychopath's facade is one of the most convincing tools they use in order to bolster their public image and escape accountability for their actions. The most covert sociopaths are able to engage in a great deal of grandstanding and virtue-signaling to create a persona of a good-natured, humble, caring and generous individual in order to mask their true contempt and malice. This allows them to get away with their crimes more easily in public. They can even infiltrate fields like counseling or religious and spiritual leadership in order to access a greater supply of victims, disguising themselves as competent professionals or "gurus" all while hunting for prey.

Their superficial and glib charm is not only part of their diagnostic criteria, it is the driving force behind what makes them so alluring to potential targets of their schemes.

Their devil-may-care exterior actually works for narcissists, rather than against them, when it comes to initial attraction, ironically even for those seeking long-term mates. Research has indicated that even women with a wealth of experience in the romantic arena and a desire for marriage (including those who have knowledge of narcissistic personalities) still preferred narcissists as romantic partners. According to researchers Haslam and Montrose (2015), this was due to their "ability to acquire resources, and {the fact} that they are entertaining and self-assured. These traits are attractive to females in relationship contexts."

7. They use the pity ploy rather than physical force to cut through the defenses of their victims
The pity ploy is perhaps the most dangerous weapon in the arsenal of a covert sociopath. Dr. Martha Stout, author of The Sociopath Next Door, writes, "The most reliable sign, the most universal behavior of unscrupulous people is not directed, as one might imagine, at our fearfulness. It is, perversely, an appeal to our sympathy." Stout notes that if an abusive, toxic person repeatedly tries to make us feel sorry for them after chronically terrorizing us, it is a sure sign we are dealing with someone sociopathic.

Pity disarms us and makes us vulnerable to exploitation. Preying on our sympathy, our conscientiousness and empathy is a common maneuver for conscienceless, sophisticated and covert manipulators because it enables them to get past our defenses. It appeals to the part of us that wants to help, nurture and "nurse" these individuals back to emotional "health."

That is why covert abusers often bring up traumatic pasts to justify their present violence, use excuses related to life-threatening illnesses, work-related issues or emergencies to divert the focus off of their harmful behavior, and tell sob stories of their "crazy exes" early on in the beginning to manipulate their victims. They use their capacity for cognitive empathy to assess our weaknesses, vulnerabilities, and desires in order to "morph" into the very people we would trust in and believe in - the very people we would want to help (Wai & Tiliopoulos, 2012). Meanwhile, these same malignant types lack the affective empathy and sympathy for their victims - depending on where they fall on the spectrum, they often do not feel anything other than sadistic pleasure at inflicting pain.

Covert manipulators know how to bypass our logic and reasoning by appealing to the most vulnerable parts of us - our empathy and compassion, qualities which they do not possess themselves. This is what ultimately makes them so dangerous - the fact that they can pose as a sheep in wolf's clothing, with no one being any wiser to their intentions. As Stout also eloquently writes, "'I am sure that if the devil existed, he would want us to feel very sorry for him."


References:

American Psychiatric Association (2013). Diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders (5th Ed). Washington DC: American Psychiatric Association.

Ekman, P. (2009, December). Duping Delight. Retrieved November 01, 2018, from https://www.paulekman.com/deception-detection/duping-delight/

Goulston, M. (2012, February 9). Rage-Coming Soon From a Narcissist Near You. Retrieved July 24, 2018, from https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/just-listen/201202/rage-coming-soon-narcissist-near-you

Haslam, C., & Montrose, V. T. (2015). Should have known better: The impact of mating experience and the desire for marriage upon attraction to the narcissistic personality.Personality and Individual Differences,82, 188-192. doi:10.1016/j.paid.2015.03.032

Motzkin, J. C., Newman, J. P., Kiehl, K. A., & Koenigs, M. (2011). Reduced Prefrontal Connectivity in Psychopathy. Journal of Neuroscience, 31(48), 17348-17357. doi:10.1523/jneurosci.4215-11.2011

Navarro, J., & Poynter, T. S. (2017). Dangerous personalities: An FBI profiler shows how to identify and protect yourself from harmful people. Emmaus, PA: Rodale.

Simon, G. (2008, November). Beware the Covert-Aggressive Personality. Retrieved November 01, 2018, from https://counsellingresource.com/features/2008/11/19/covert-aggressive-personality/

Staik, A. (2018). 15 Reasons Narcissists (and Sociopaths) Lie. Psych Central. Retrieved on November 1, 2018, from https://blogs.psychcentral.com/relationships/2018/03/10-reasons-narcissists-and-sociopaths-lie/

Stines, S. (2017). When a Narcissist Makes an Apology. Psych Central. Retrieved on October 31, 2018, from https://pro.psychcentral.com/recovery-expert/2017/02/when-a-narcissist-makes-an-apology/

Stout, M. (2004). The Sociopath Next Door: How to recognize and defeat the ruthless in everyday life. New York: Broadway Books.

Wai, M., & Tiliopoulos, N. (2012). The affective and cognitive empathic nature of the dark triad of personality. Personality and Individual Differences, 52(7), 794-799. doi:10.1016/j.paid.2012.01.008

About The Author
Shahida Arabi is the best-selling author of Becoming the Narcissist's Nightmare: How to Devalue and Discard the Narcissist While Supplying Yourself, (https://amazon.com/Becoming-Narcissists-Nightmare-Narcissist-Supplying-ebook/dp/B01B01O3PA/) She is the founder of the popular blog for abuse survivors, Self-Care Haven (https://www.selfcarehaven.wordpress.com/). Her work has been shared and endorsed by numerous clinicians, mental health advocates, mental health professionals and bestselling authors.

Related:
Political Ponerology: A Science on The Nature of Evil adjusted for Political Purposes (https://www.sott.net/article/224670-Political-Ponerology-A-Science-on-The-Nature-of-Evil-adjusted-for-Political-Purposes#)

[RunningDeer]

7 things covert psychopaths, narcissists and sociopaths do differently (https://blogs.psychcentral.com/recovering-narcissist/2018/10/covert-sociopaths-and-narcissists)
:bump:
Excellent, Hervé. http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/duck.gif
Thanks.

[Deux Corbeaux]

7 things covert psychopaths, narcissists and sociopaths do differently (https://blogs.psychcentral.com/recovering-narcissist/2018/10/covert-sociopaths-and-narcissists)

1. They apologize strategically to keep you hooked

2. They rage covertly, engaging in underhanded sabotage and put-downs

3. They set up their victims elaborately, rigging the game while dangling the carrot

4. They are convincing pathological liars

5. They hide their double lives with more ease and no empathy

6. Their facade is very convincing and alluring

7. They use the pity ploy rather than physical force to cut through the defenses of their victims

I would ADD,

8. They will always win the argument

You want to play a game you will never win? Start an argument with a narcissist :o

You'll find out that they argue in what is sometimes referred to as bad faith.
It means that they don’t even care about, or try to understand, the other person. Or even worse, they are dedicated to deliberately misunderstanding and mischaracterizing others, often to the point of absurdity.

https://blogs.psychcentral.com/psychology-self/2018/08/narcissist-arguing/



Arguing with a Narcissist... A deeper look


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MUAcve4vIs

[Deux Corbeaux]

8. They will always win the argument

You want to play a game you will never win? Start an argument with a narcissist :o

You'll find out that they argue in what is sometimes referred to as bad faith.
It means that they don’t even care about, or try to understand, the other person. Or even worse, they are dedicated to deliberately misunderstanding and mischaracterizing others, often to the point of absurdity.

https://blogs.psychcentral.com/psychology-self/2018/08/narcissist-arguing/


On a forum one can sometimes meet with the toxicity of an narcissist.

In the article above there were mentioned some of the techniques a narcissist uses in conversations and arguments, like

1. Arguing in bad faith

2. Fallacies, nonsense, word salad

3. Provoking, bullying, intimidating

4. Lying, denying, changing definitions

5. Deflecting, attacking, projecting

6. Involving others and acting out revenge fantasies

https://blogs.psychcentral.com/psychology-self/2018/08/narcissist-arguing/

I would like to add to this:

7 Aggressive jabs disguised as jokes.

Covert narcissists enjoy making malicious remarks at your expense. These are usually dressed up as “just jokes”.
Hence they can get away with saying appalling things while still maintaining an innocent, cool demeanor.

8. Condescending sarcasm and patronizing tone.

Belittling and degrading a person is a narcissist's forte and their tone of voice (or in writing, capitals and fat) is only one tool in their toolbox.
Sarcasm can be a fun mode of communication when both parties are engaged, but narcissists use it chronically as a way to manipulate you and degrade you.

If you in any way react to it, you must be “too sensitive.” :rolleyes:

[Flash]

8. They will always win the argument

You want to play a game you will never win? Start an argument with a narcissist :o

You'll find out that they argue in what is sometimes referred to as bad faith.
It means that they don’t even care about, or try to understand, the other person. Or even worse, they are dedicated to deliberately misunderstanding and mischaracterizing others, often to the point of absurdity.

https://blogs.psychcentral.com/psychology-self/2018/08/narcissist-arguing/


On a forum one can sometimes meet with the toxicity of an narcissist.

In the article above there were mentioned some of the techniques a narcissist uses in conversations and arguments, like

1. Arguing in bad faith

2. Fallacies, nonsense, word salad

3. Provoking, bullying, intimidating

4. Lying, denying, changing definitions

5. Deflecting, attacking, projecting

6. Involving others and acting out revenge fantasies

https://blogs.psychcentral.com/psychology-self/2018/08/narcissist-arguing/

I would like to add to this:

7 Aggressive jabs disguised as jokes.

Covert narcissists enjoy making malicious remarks at your expense. These are usually dressed up as “just jokes”.
Hence they can get away with saying appalling things while still maintaining an innocent, cool demeanor.

8. Condescending sarcasm and patronizing tone.

Belittling and degrading a person is a narcissist's forte and their tone of voice (or in writing, capitals and fat) is only one tool in their toolbox.
Sarcasm can be a fun mode of communication when both parties are engaged, but narcissists use it chronically as a way to manipulate you and degrade you.

If you in any way react to it, you must be “too sensitive.” :rolleyes:

Deux Corbeaux, you completely changed the content of the numbering!!! Shouldn't your content be added up to the one from the previous content?

Did you confuse us in order to have some gain??? :ROLF:

That is it? Now I am too sensitive, you see me as tooo..... Previous number 5 could be reposted here lolllll

[Deux Corbeaux]

Deux Corbeaux, you completely changed the content of the numbering!!! Shouldn't your content be added up to the one from the previous content?

Did you confuse us in order to have some gain??? :ROLF:

That is it? Now I am too sensitive, you see me as tooo..... Previous number 5 could be reposted here lolllll

I don't understand what you're trying to tell me.

Read the article I posted above.
https://blogs.psychcentral.com/psychology-self/2018/08/narcissist-arguing/

"6 Toxic Arguing Techniques Used by Narcissists and Manipulators"

1. Arguing in bad faith
When in disagreement, a common person tries to understand the other party, listen to them, be honest, and make sure they understand where others are coming from. Sure, sometimes people can slip and become too upset or too anxious. But generally that’s the unwritten guideline.

Narcissists on the other hand argue in what is sometimes referred to as bad faith. It means that they don’t even care about, or try to understand, the other person. Or even worse, they are dedicated to deliberately misunderstanding and mischaracterizing others, often to the point of absurdity.

They are willingly dishonest, deceptive, and morally corrupt. Often while at the same time quick to accuse others of being dishonest, deceptive, and morally bad (more on that in #5).

2. Fallacies, nonsense, word salad
Narcissists are often ill-equipped to have mature discussions or resolve conflicts yet in their mind they are experts at it. As a result, they often use some terms, arguments, or techniques that they’ve heard about yet don’t really understand, all while thinking that they are being rational, reasonable, or correct. Sometimes to the degree that they become extremely upset or even aggressive that you are being irrational, unreasonable, uneducated, and unwilling or unable to have a mature conversation.

Meanwhile in reality, what they’re saying is simply an incoherent rant or an amalgamation of logical and argumentation fallacies, misrepresentation of you, factual errors, emotional language, or pure nonsense (as in something that literally makes no sense). In more extreme cases it is called word salad, as in a mix of words that are just thrown together with no coherence or structure.

3. Provoking, bullying, intimidating
Since a narcissist’s goal is to dominate and be perceived as right at all costs, they often use aggression. This category involves the more overtly aggressive tactics commonly used by narcissists.

Such methods include provoking, bullying, and intimidating, where the narcissist picks on you, calls you names, yells, acts overly emotional, deliberately tries to hurt you, blatantly lies, threatens, or even physically aggresses against you.

Not only that, then they spin it around by presenting it as if by reacting to it or by ignoring them you are the one who’s unreasonable, too emotional, and aggressive against them.

4. Lying, denying, changing definitions
Here, in order to “win,” the narcissist uses more covert tactics.

Sometimes they lie about what happened, what you or they did and didn’t do, or even about what’s real and factually true. Often to the degree of pure denial and delusion. An attempt to confuse the other person and make them doubt their experiences or reality by lying about it is called gaslighting.

Another method that falls in this category is redefining to suit their narrative. For that purpose, they are keen on using euphemistic language or redefining commonly used words to fit their narrative when it clearly doesn’t. Again, the goal is to justify that what they are doing is good and what they are saying is right, even when it clearly isn’t.

Sometimes it means reframing or minimizing their toxic behavior to confuse you. For instance, “I didn’t yell at you, I was just passionate.” Or, “This is not abusive or manipulative, I’m just being assertive and honest.”

5. Deflecting, attacking, projecting
A painfully common tactic used by narcissists is deflect and attack.

Here, the goal is to shift attention from what the narcissist is saying and doing to what you are saying and doing, where they never have to take responsibility for their toxic behavior or address anything you’re saying.

If you bring something up that you don’t like or find to be untrue and problematic, instead of addressing it or taking responsibility for it, they will quickly deflect and go into attack mode. This means they will use their toxic tactics to quickly shift attention from themselves and bring up something that you may or may not have said or done. Often to the degree where they try to always keep you on the defense by accusing you of all sorts of stuff, some of which includes the things they are actually doing themselves (narcissistic projection).

And if you make a mistake of actually trying to address it, you will get distracted from the initial issue and soon become overwhelmed by all the stuff that now you are expected to address and clarify. And do so to a person who doesn’t care about understanding you and is dedicated to mischaracterizing you in order to dominate and “win an argument.”

6. Involving others and acting out revenge fantasies
Narcissists have extremely fragile egos and a shaky sense of self-esteem. If you actually stand up for yourself and don’t play their games, they perceive it as humiliation, as you being unfair, even abusive to them. In their eyes, you are being unreasonable because you don’t acknowledge that they are superior, right, and all around wonderful people. They find it terribly offensive, and feel shame, injustice, and rage (narcissistic injury).

To regulate their overwhelming emotions, they often try to receive false validation. This means looking for people who would side with them and tell them that you are wrong and evil and they are right and good. It involves lying, smearing, slandering, triangulating, gossiping, stalking, and other forms of social aggression and manipulation.

We explored this more in the previous article titled How Narcissists Play the Victim and Twist the Story.

Summary and final words
In a social interaction, discussion, or argument, regular, well-meaning people treat others with curiosity, empathy, and good faith. A narcissist, on the other hand, sees interaction as a win-lose situation. To “win,” they try to dominate, bully, deceive, demean, humiliate, and hurt others.

For that, they use certain common and predictable tactics that include but are not limited to arguing in bad faith, lying, denying, deflecting and attacking, gaslighting, and intimidating. If and when they feel they have lost or were wronged, they will try to intimidate you further and manipulate others in order to hurt you personally and socially. Sometimes while accusing you of it at the same time.

Engaging with a person who uses these tactics is fruitless, frustrating, boring, and predictable. Yet someone who is not quite familiar with it may think, “But if only I explained myself better…” Or, “But if only I presented my argument better…” Or, “But if only they could understand where I’m coming from…” But if only….

Yet they’re not interested in, and often not even capable of, that. They don’t care about sound arguments, honesty, empathy, curiosity, or win-win resolutions. They might claim that they are all about that, but if you look at how they act it’s evident that they are not.

So after you noticed that you’re dealing with someone who is consistently participating in something like this and is not really interested in conflict resolution or finding truth, you can safely decide not to engage with them and save yourself a headache.


I added 2 other techniques. (Nr 7 and 8)

7. Aggressive jabs disguised as jokes.

Covert narcissists enjoy making malicious remarks at your expense. These are usually dressed up as “just jokes”.
Hence they can get away with saying appalling things while still maintaining an innocent, cool demeanor.

8. Condescending sarcasm and patronizing tone.

Belittling and degrading a person is a narcissist's forte and their tone of voice (or in writing, capitals and fat) is only one tool in their toolbox.
Sarcasm can be a fun mode of communication when both parties are engaged, but narcissists use it chronically as a way to manipulate you and degrade you.

[Flash]

It is dry humour Deux Corbeaux

I am trying to react as a narcissist, unsuccessfully it seems lol

Thank for your info, it is definitely a complement to the previous information, without kidding this time.

[Deux Corbeaux]

~~~~~~~~~~ lol ~~~~~~~~~~

[onawah]

I'm glad other members are paying attention to this subject.
I am having to deal with a particular narcissist regularly and am wondering if it would be better to just avoid the situation altogether...the trouble is, narcissists keep popping up in my reality.
No matter how much I would like to eliminate their presence altogether, it seems as if it may be my fate to have to learn to deal with them, however unpleasant.
I hope that's not really the case!

[samildamach]

I believe it's not you that's needs to learn to deal with them,its more finding and dealing with the lesson there here to teach you.
Mine took six years to understand,and enough experience to write a book

[onawah]

At this stage in my life, I'm not really sure I want to know, but short of becoming a complete hermit, it may be I will have to knuckle under.

[Deux Corbeaux]

Are you in for a hard talk? Isaiah is giving it to you.

Beware, he’s not an actual empath .... :facepalm:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZjLHD9R0jY


Only 6.2% actually got officially diagnosed. How many didn’t?

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/special-reports/new-insights-narcissistic-personality-disorder

[Flash]

Are you in for a hard talk? Isaiah is giving it to you.

Beware, he’s not an actual empath .... :facepalm:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZjLHD9R0jY


Only 6.2% actually got officially diagnosed. How many didn’t?

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/special-reports/new-insights-narcissistic-personality-disorder

Why do I almost always dislike those talking about narcissists or about the recipients of narcissisim? The only ones I liked up to now are Vaknin, because he does not hide his own narcissism, even if he overdoes it at times, and Dr Ramani, who is plainly a true psychology specialist.

For Dr Ramani, noticeably narcissistic people are her guest: 10 to 15%. I agree with her. I think that 6,2% from the research is due to many people not knowing they are dealing with this narcissist in their environment, until they are fooled by him. As an example, our dear Rebecca here on Avalon, who has a malignant narcissist (in my views and some others avalonians views) in her life and does not realize it, even if we all tell her.

this guy is admonishing us as if we were children. Although his message could have been positive, his admonishing is truly annoying. He tells us what to do, but give no cues on how to do it. Not helpful at all.

And look at his non verbal language: placing both hands each fingers on the opposite hand fingers means "authority", "someones who knows or someone who thinks he knows". Not much way for exchanges in those situations.

Definitely not an empath .... nor a sympatetic one.

Dr Ramani


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uJs0iGQN0M

[Flash]

This one is not too bad either

interesting: narcissistic personality disorder vs narcissistic traits: the former shows the triple E:

Exploitation

Entitlement

Empathy impairment

and why narcissists are narcissists : a combination of genetic and environment

narcissists are insecure (high self esteem is not true), even if they say they are great at everything, but once hook up to a lie detector, these are lies

The particular form of insecurity they have is called "insecure attachment"

With secure attachment, you feel that you can turn to someone and they will be there for you. With insecure attachment, love is devalued, and narcissists devalue love. Narcissists are addicted to feeling special, in order to avoid being vulnerable. They do not like to depend on people.

Gaslighting: partner telling you you are a crazy one, stupid, etc. Ex: applying for graduate school, while the boyfriend does not know about his future, will not tell her he feels scare about his future, he will instill doubt in her such as "are you sure you apply to the right school", going up to make you feel that you are crazy, mentally ill, etc.

People dealing with extreme narcissism often have PTSD.

All those who have heard something like this have dealt with emotional abuse.

Instead of acknowledging they disappointed you, they will change the story in order to avoid feeling vulnerable. Another is putting a person on pedestal, then devaluation her, in cycles. They will dodge, avoid vulnerability, want self control.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFmvhDRqCys

3 stop signs to quit a relationship with a narcissist:

1. when a person does ongoing, physical or emotional abuse and won't acknowledge it, and won't change it: get support and break the isolation and leave, you are in a dangerous situation, call 1-800 abuse hot line, look got local support, there is no possibility to remain if there is no safety - get professional help to understand why you are stucked in the relationship

2. Signs of denial: won't go to therapy, won't admit there is a problem, it will not get better. You cannot change what you do not admit. People showing denial throughout young life they grow up to be extreme narcissists.

3. Psychopathy: pattern of remorseless lies and deceit. Lying without flinching to your face, over and over, called malignant narcissism, which is the combination of psychopathy and heavy narcissism. No hope for change.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FA14x5_7Ec




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FA14x5_7Ec

[Deux Corbeaux]

7 things covert psychopaths, narcissists and sociopaths do differently

The only truly effective method for dealing with a sociopath you have identified is to disallow him or her from your life altogether. Sociopaths live completely outside of the social contract, and therefore to include them in relationships or other social arrangements is perilous.


This song was posted on the Teresa Yanaros Thread and is relevant to this thread as well.
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?104846-Teresa-Yanaros-Divine-Frequency-Leaves-Full-Disclosure-Project-Today-2018-10-28&p=1258513&viewfull=1#post1258513

thank you ichingcarpenter :flower:

jdyto5rf0HUDon't think sorry's easily said
Don't try turning tables instead
You've taken lots of chances before
But I ain't gonna give any more
Don't ask me
That's how it goes
'Cause part of me knows what you're thinking...
Don't say words you're gonna regret
Don't let the fire rush to your head
I've heard the accusation before
And I ain't gonna take any more
Believe me
The sun in your eyes
Made some of the lies worth believing

Don't leave false illusions behind
Don't cry 'cause I ain't changing my mind
So find another fool like before
'Cause I ain't gonna live anymore believing
Some of the lies while all of the signs are deceiving


I am the eye in the sky
Looking at you
I can read your mind
I am the maker of rules
Dealing with fools
I can cheat you blind
And I don't need to see any more
To know that I can read your mind, I can read your mind, I can read your mind, I can read your mind

:flower:

[onawah]

Narcissist's False Self vs. True Self: Soul-snatching
This is one of Sam Vaknin's talks from 2010, but I found it especially descriptive:
Sam Vaknin
Published on Jul 28, 2010

"The False Self is a decoy, it "attracts the fire". It is a proxy for the True Self. It is tough as nails and can absorb any amount of pain, hurt and negative emotions. By inventing it, the child develops immunity to the indifference, manipulation, sadism, smothering, or exploitation -- in short: to the abuse -- inflicted on him by his parents (or by other Primary Objects in his life). It is a cloak, a Harry Potter-like contraption, protecting the narcissist and rendering him invisible and omnipotent at the same time."
ZFahESPWgbU

[Johan (Keyholder)]

"The trouble is, narcissists keep popping up in my reality." Onawah wrote that in a post above.
It is the same in "my reality".

It started in 1975 and hasn't stopped since then. There have been periods when it was "very heavy", some other times it was a bit "quieter".
In the seventies pathological narcissism, malignant narcissism and more terms like that were not yet well known. Sure, those people were around.
But it has been my personal experience that 40 years ago, maybe 2% of the population were PN's, now it can be around 10%. It really is an epidemic,
like Jean Twenge's book describes. "The narcissism epidemic" is a good scientific reference work that studies the phenomenon in depth.

Between 1975 and 2002 I had not really a clear idea what this was all about, though I encountered more and more PN's, in every walk of life.
At the university and later in education, in relationships, at work (in at least 5 different careers...), in the "alternative" world, in sports, in politics,
within my (small) family, in social circles, in philosophical/religious groups, ...
Everywhere, so it seems. I am convinced that I - for a particular reason - have encountered them everywhere and anytime.

Fate? Destiny? Well, I have come to understand that it was a personal choice to experience all this (sounds maybe strange), but I did get a confirmation of this in 2007.
That made it easier for me to accept what was going on. I also know that in another (previous) life, I was somehow a part of the victims of "Nacht und Nebel", a Nazi effort to
eradicate political adversaries of the Nazi regime. I was striving for spiritual freedom, then too. Got killed in it as well.

So, it is a kind of "fil rouge", throughout this lifetime as well as some others. I have come to see and accept it as such.
For over 20 years now I have done what I could to help those that were victims of PN, in whatever way.
I have met lots of people that suffered an entire life of something they could not understand and did not even know.
Most of them were HSP's, empaths, intuitives and other people that only wanted to help others.
I found out that very often PN runs 'in the family', either mother's side or father's side.
Sometimes I could trace back the PN four generations. And some men/women have as life purpose to "break the circle of abuse".
Very few have been able to do so... most victims - even after trying to get out of the morass of PN - too often become perpetrators themselves.
And so this "mind virus, wetiko, malignant gene... spreads further and further; today it even is "glorified" it seems.
Hard to make a career without being "infected" by it. Well, that is what I have seen happening around me anyway.

It almost looks like I have become a kind of Dian Fossey. The ethologist that studied mountain gorilla's in Ruanda.
In order to know and understand their behavior, she went "to live among them". I can relate to that, very well.

It seems a very strange "life purpose". But with what I have experienced and learned, the conclusion is that I am
today an "experiential specialist" of PN. Acceptance of what we do is key. Maybe Onawah, someday you will get a clear
sign/explanation of the "why" of this being an PN-magnet.

It is - maybe - also possible to say "ENOUGH", IF you consider it's time to end the personal experiences in that field.
My approach is different; but it is amazing to see how this "spiritual Ebola virus" has proliferated the passed 40 years.

The age of technology is partly (mainly even) the cause of this. FACEbook, MYspace, I-mac, SELFies, I-"anything"...
I have taught in high schools and I have seen the damage done by it. Can it be stopped? I wonder... look at 5G coming up.
There are plenty of threads on PA discussing the PN-effects of social media, social controls, mind manipulation...

I continue what I am doing, I do need to take a "break" now and then, and nature is the best place to go then.
The sea and lakes, the mountains... not simple to get there from "densely populated Belgium", but I do what I can.

It's a good thread, a lot of Avalonians are dealing with the many aspects of malignant narcissism.
We can learn a lot from each other.

[onawah]

Many thanks for your thoughtful post, Keyholder. It may take me awhile, but I will definitely respond.


It's a good thread, a lot of Avalonians are dealing with the many aspects of malignant narcissism.
We can learn a lot from each other.

[raregem]

At this stage in my life, I'm not really sure I want to know, but short of becoming a complete hermit, it may be I will have to knuckle under.

Oh please, Onawah do not knuckle under. I completely appreciate your writing this. I, too keep dealing with the narco. It has been one week since I left a 3-year narco situation. It built slowly. He was a "friend" only with severe health issues. So he was able to use pity until I said no more. So many attacks at me. It made no sense at all. He left me hurting in many ways. I reflect on how this happened and I think my lesson (so far) is to KNOW my boundary and stick to it when it gets crossed. That is- no more contact or trust for them. I have attracted too many narcos starting with family. And, on to life's lessons and learning to soar above this. I try not to feel the excessive anger and it is much better. I am working on understanding true forgiveness to self and the narco- it is a progression right now.
It has been difficult to see how I was responsible for being abused- coming and going when I thought I was helpful and loving.

p.s I went hermit for 5 plus years. Came back into narco world even worse than ever before. Sometimes I wondered if killing them with kindness allowed the narco to kill with subterfuge instead. Psychologically mind-numbing when you are in it.

[onawah]

Thanks Raregem for your compassionate response.
This thread is certainly getting interesting!
Last week I actually left the situation where I was having to deal on a regular basis with a narcissist.
(And since then, I've been realizing how drained I was and how much I've needed a rest.)
It came about in a strange way; it was not quite my intention to leave the situation so abruptly, but it is probably best that it happened that way.
More later, but the focus now seems to go beyond understanding the weird dynamic between empaths and narcissists, to empaths realizing how they need to provide the space to heal THEMSELVES, and how the "relationship" ( if it can be called that) with the narcissist may be very instrumental in bringing that truth home to the empath. That urge to heal others can actually be quite destructive.


At this stage in my life, I'm not really sure I want to know, but short of becoming a complete hermit, it may be I will have to knuckle under.

Oh please, Onawah do not knuckle under. I completely appreciate your writing this. I, too keep dealing with the narco. It has been one week since I left a 3-year narco situation. It built slowly. He was a "friend" only with severe health issues. So he was able to use pity until I said no more. So many attacks at me. It made no sense at all. He left me hurting in many ways. I reflect on how this happened and I think my lesson (so far) is to KNOW my boundary and stick to it when it gets crossed. That is- no more contact or trust for them. I have attracted too many narcos starting with family. And, on to life's lessons and learning to soar above this. I try not to feel the excessive anger and it is much better. I am working on understanding true forgiveness to self and the narco- it is a progression right now.
It has been difficult to see how I was responsible for being abused- coming and going when I thought I was helpful and loving.

p.s I went hermit for 5 plus years. Came back into narco world even worse than ever before. Sometimes I wondered if killing them with kindness allowed the narco to kill with subterfuge instead. Psychologically mind-numbing when you are in it.

[raregem]

You are most welcome Onawah. I assumed I understood your statements but, I should have asked you first what you meant by "knuckle under". Would you clarify, please?
I just want to send you deep abiding respect and care during this sojourn.

[raregem]

To Avalonians-

I am interested in knowing the stats for empaths and sensitive people who have difficulty with narcos.
Could we poll this somehow? Anyone interested? Thanks.

[Johan (Keyholder)]

Hi raregem. Personally I believe there is a statistical correlation if one can call it that, which can show that INFP/INFJ's are almost always in one way or the other dealing with pathological narcissists in their life.
A poll would be most interesting, but I would somehow link it more specifically to these Avalonians that are INFP/INFJ. Other MBTI-types would/could be less involved attracting PN's.

[raregem]

Great point Keyholder. I just have no idea how to make this happen.

[onawah]

I think you understood, Raregem, and thanks again.
By "knuckle under" I meant I thought I was perhaps going to just have to grin and bear the narcissist's role in my life. ( Which, as it turns out, I didn't... :sun: :star: )
I am an INFJ, by the way.

You are most welcome Onawah. I assumed I understood your statements but, I should have asked you first what you meant by "knuckle under". Would you clarify, please?
I just want to send you deep abiding respect and care during this sojourn.

update: I have never been involved in a personal relationship with a narcissist beyond "friendship" (if it can even be called that).

[onawah]

I have known for a long time that I am an INFJ, and I think I recognized early on that the narcissists in my life have been mirrors for me, showing me the wounded parts of myself that came about from abuse and neglect that I suffered during my own younger years. but I think I first started really becoming conscious of the empath/narcissist pattern about a year ago when this thread started: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?100200-Are-You-An-Empath-11-Things-They-Hide-From-People&highlight=narcissism
I was only beginning to realize the scope of the problem when I posted this:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?100200-Are-You-An-Empath-11-Things-They-Hide-From-People&p=1216561&viewfull=1#post1216561
...but at least I think I was on the right track.
Recently I watched a youtube video by a young empath (whose name I don't remember now, unfortunately) who was looking at the pattern from a slightly different perspective.
He was seeing the journey as a process of self-realization, rather than victimization, for the empath who is beginning to value more the differences between a normal, relatively intact person and a narcissist, and valuing the simple gift of just being "normal", understanding that there is no built in, burdensome obligation to heal the narcissist, and so is beginning to be freed from that ensnaring pattern. At that stage, one no longer takes for granted simple mental health, something narcissists can't even imagine, and is able to have compassion without compulsion.
(Or at least, that is the conclusion I have arrived at; as someone who has been deeply into Buddhist study and practice for many years, I think that studying narcissists and empaths has helped me to understand better how the path of the Boddhisattva must finally result in compassionate detachment, though that juncture may take longer to arrive at than someone from the more direct-to-the-goal Hinayana tradition, where one is concerned only with with one's own enlightenment, and not that of others. Of course, that can lead to a huge metaphysical discussion, but I'm not going to go there now. )

The VitalMind psychologist's talks here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_P8aFACl-VqJl0flQPGMQQ/playlists
have been very helpful in recognizing the variables and patterns, and Sam Vaknin's talks continue to enlighten, while helping me to remember that narcissists are invariably abuse victims themselves, and also that empaths tend to overestimate their own ability to heal others and so can easily fall victim to pride.

I don't want to go into too much detail about my recent departure from the situation involving the last narcissist who "showed up" in my life because I don't want to "out" that person (however unlikely that might be), but it has certainly been an instructive episode, and I hope I am emerging from it more capable of being emotionally detached and seeing it all more objectively.
I don't doubt that there will be many big corners to turn in this process, but I can more easily accept now that it's an ongoing one.

I think acceptance of the dual nature of this 3D reality in general is a very big part of the process too, because acceptance, rather than resistance, is an essential part of the journey.
And through acceptance we get more grounded in the actual, transcendent nature of Reality beyond 3D, which is much less burdensome on the whole, by its very nature.

[RunningDeer]

Hi raregem. Personally I believe there is a statistical correlation if one can call it that, which can show that INFP/INFJ's are almost always in one way or the other dealing with pathological narcissists in their life.
A poll would be most interesting, but I would somehow link it more specifically to these Avalonians that are INFP/INFJ. Other MBTI-types would/could be less involved attracting PN's.


Great point Keyholder. I just have no idea how to make this happen.

It would be interesting to see the results. I’m inclined to think that all personality types have had experiences with narcissists and psychopaths.


https://i.imgur.com/F5VZkI8.gif

For those that may not know, there’s a thread: Free Personality Test and MBTI/Myers-Briggs Type Descriptions (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?58489-Free-Personality-Test-and-MBTI-Myers-Briggs-Type-Descriptions&p=665299&viewfull=1#post665299)

[raregem]

Some wonderful and helpful viewpoints everyone.
I could not imagine people were unable to feel the hurt they gave so freely and laughed or smirked about. Like it was a trophy they won. My brother has told me many times- for years that so and so was a narcissist. Religion told me to turn the other cheek, forgive etc...
I have had to spend a lot of time learning about the psychology of narcissism. Truly mind-blowing that it most likely cannot be reverted to a balanced and thoughtful mind/heart. I have been told often I am too sensitive. The last experience has brought me to feel NO compassion for the narc soul at this time. I am shocked at myself as I have never got to this point of NO feeling for someone else's pain. Onowah you said.."compassion without compulsion". I think I shall reflect on this thought in the desire to balance this within. I do not want to lose compassion ..I do want to understand how to have compassion without self-destruction. I feel love for you all right now. Perhaps, I will again feel for the narcissist and their healing in their right time..not mine.

I am INFJ, too.

[onawah]

I think a turning point for me came when I realized how devoid of feeling a true narcissist is.
They really are quite empty, and so feeling another's pain is impossible for them.
They are so numbed out and cut off from their own emotions, they cannot even imagine what a normal person might be feeling, though they probably have a dim memory of what it felt like to have real feelings before they became so damaged they could no longer feel.
Unlike psychopaths, who are so far gone they have to learn how to mimic normal emotions.
It's may be as difficult for a normal person to imagine what the inner world of a narcissist must be like as vice versa.
I really had to work at it, and it took months of observation and interaction!
It seems like that was my last "assignment" re the narcissist I was dealing with recently.
But once it became clear to me what that person was actually like inside, I no longer saw the narcissist in question as an adversary, though obviously still very dangerous, if only because of being so oblivious.
I view the person now more in the way I would view a severely abused and wounded wild animal.
Since I frequently have more compassion for helpless animals than I do for humans, it became easier for me to have compassion for the narcissist, though now without the compulsion to assist or heal, since I realize that would be quite beyond my capability, and would only result in injury to me.

[onawah]

I just discovered this old thread about empaths from a few years back that was quite interesting, starting here: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?64221-Empaths&p=742083&viewfull=1#post742083

[onawah]

A new interview with Sam Vaknin, about social media and pathology, which I've posted here:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?101475-How-Google-Facebook-Yahoo-decide-what-you-re-going-to-see&p=1260850&viewfull=1#post1260850

[onawah]

These short lectures by Rudolph Steiner, the founder of Anthroposophy, has bearing on the issues of how to deal with narcissists, sociopaths, psychopaths (though I can't say that I really understand the last one):
http://galaksija.com/literatura/steiner.pdf
...as does much of the info contained in this thread, imho:http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?91237-Just-another-wake-up-call--&p=1262466#post1262466

[RunningDeer]

Joe from the Carolinas


5 Ways Narcissists Control Your Mind - Important Facts! (47 minutes)




5 Ways Narcissists Control Your Mind - Important Facts ! Narcissism is a personality trait that centers around the individual. In this stream, I discuss 5 key ways that the narcissist engages in mind control and brainwashes their partner into a sculpted robotic servant.



2B9ozIbX_EQ

Joe from the Carolinas
December 7, 2018

[all related links found here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B9ozIbX_EQ)]

[onawah]

Narcissist's Most Potent Weapon: "Induced Conversation." Beware & Protect Yourself!
Ross Rosenberg
Published on Dec 17, 2018

"In this video, Ross Rosenberg explains how Pathological Narcissists (Pnarc) utilize the manipulation technique he describes as, connects his "Induced Conversation.”
Pnarc easily manipulate codependents, or what Ross calls people with “Self-Love Deficit Disorder (SLDD),” when they engage in a conversation. SLD’s (Self-Love Deficient’s) mistakenly believe that by arguing, trying to convince or merely stating their opinion, they are wielding power over their narcissistic partner. The opposite actually happens, as it brings them into what Ross refers as “the wrestling ring” where the narcissists adept at manipulating, lying, and/or gaslighting them.

The most effective of all the Pnarc’s manipulative strategies is “Induced Conversation,” especially when breaking down a no-contact initiative or when trying to hoover (suck back into the relationship) the SLD.

For SLD’s to not get sucked back into the relationship that has nearly destroyed them, they must have a potent counter-measures to survive the narcissist's induced conversation strategies. The most potent of all (not discussed in detail in this video), is Rosenberg’s Observe Don’t Absorb techniques.

For codependents or people who are self-love deficient, to not get sucked back into the relationship that has nearly destroyed them (to get hoovered), they must have a potent counter-measures to survive the narcissist's manipulation strategies.

Rosenberg also connects SLD’s addiction to their narcissist and the manner in which induced conversation impacts their powerless position in their relationship.

More information about Ross Rosenberg's work (books and seminar videos) can be found at www.SelfLoveRecovery.com."
AgSLzdhLEC4

[Deux Corbeaux]

Joe from the Carolinas has started a series on YouTube about Narcissistic Player Characters.

How To Outsmart A Narcissist The RIght Way - The Series BEGINS!
You CAN outsmart a narcissist.
This idea of NPCs ( narcissistic player characters) has been fairly popular. Where is the jungle gym for how to outsmart narcissistic personality disorder?

This video begins the debut of my how to outsmart a narcissist series. I believe that NPCs are wonderful individuals that need understanding and firm boundaries.

The base rates of narcissism makes it fairly paranormal, while the emotionally heavy narcissistic abuse and gaslighting doesn't help it feel normal at all.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YRJwQWSS8c

[Flash]

Joe from the Carolinas has started a series on YouTube about Narcissistic Player Characters.

How To Outsmart A Narcissist The RIght Way - The Series BEGINS!
You CAN outsmart a narcissist.
This idea of NPCs ( narcissistic player characters) has been fairly popular. Where is the jungle gym for how to outsmart narcissistic personality disorder?

This video begins the debut of my how to outsmart a narcissist series. I believe that NPCs are wonderful individuals that need understanding and firm boundaries.

The base rates of narcissism makes it fairly paranormal, while the emotionally heavy narcissistic abuse and gaslighting doesn't help it feel normal at all.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YRJwQWSS8c

Joe, this descriptive videos or yours is good for casual encounters with narcissists, but is really not helping when we have to deal with them on a daily basis (like a spouse, a family member, a boss, a neighbour, a father/mother, an ex father/mother of your kid, etc.)

It would have left me feeling like I am the one not understanding what to do to get out of near death energetically, I would have once again thought I am the one to blame for not being able to exit the situation. You see, it deepens the problem and the victimhood.

Most of what I see on the web is ok for casual encounters, but really way off for heavy duty situations, when one is caught in the relationship. Dealing long term with narcissists is a totally other game altogether.

And for this other game, taking into account the damage done to the regular folk, the psychological impact, the paralysis that follows, and the general psy make up of the victim is essential.

Joe, narcissists do kill by constant harrassment. Their prey get sick and die, no kidding. This has to be given a totally global dimension, surface talking is not enough, and, in my views, even damaging.

Web narcissists are casual encounters, not very difficult to deal with, unless you are a teenager and take those jerks seriously. Then teaching your method is good.

[Seabreeze]

I just found this Thread and was surprised to find it here. Did not read everything yet. To much to read for me at the time. I just found out the other month, I am living with a narcissist. Did not know about this mental disorder at all and it was a big discovery for me to hear about it. I am living with a narcissist. He is not only a narcissist, he has maniac episodes too. Like once a year he is spaces out for about 2 month.

I don*t really know, how to think about it yet. To find out the truth, is not always very positiv. But I have to deal with the facts. And it is a big step already to know them.

I listen to Dr. Les Carter a lot and what he says is very much exactly how my partner behaves and acts towards me.

Here is one example :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIbFtZMVwxk


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WtsPc3w9XU

I am so tired of those verbal fights...and I think I am a bit in a trauma, by now. I did start to write down certain situations and what happened then and was said, so I can recall them later again if needed.

He does the gaslightning actions too.

Now, knowing my partner is a narcissist....I feel kind of helpless and unsecure, not knowing really what to do. I think I can not trust him at all, knowing he has no empathy for me. It hurts to find this out.

[Seabreeze]

This lady is very right!

I am doing this for years trying to find out why was this or that said or done....and so on...... Allways thinking, it will change, it will get better, I just takes time.....I am stucked in it for all those years, not knowing at all - it is and was all a narcissitic behavior. And it seems like it is getting more worst and not better at all.

It is pretty scary to find out the person you thought you know very well....is actually very different from the picture you had all those years. At least now I know what I am dealing with. Better to find out late - than never....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnTIUDIgDUA The only way to win with a narcissist — Susan Winter

http://yoursmiles.org/tsmile/say/t2905.gif Susan....

[Flash]

Whisper: Now, knowing my partner is a narcissist....I feel kind of helpless and unsecure, not knowing really what to do. I think I can not trust him at all, knowing he has no empathy for me. It hurts to find this out.


Leave baby, leave. There is not much else to do.

And be sure that the disgusting behavior will be enhanced and make you quite distraught while you are leaving. Prepare your departure, but there is a good chance he will guess it. Be mentally prepared to be strong and to cut all ties.

Tough road, but necessary one. It may take as many years to cure your PTSD from these experiences, and you may fall for other narcissists if you do not learn to love yourself and refuse being damaged by anybody.

[Johan (Keyholder)]

Hello Whisper. The advice Flash just gave is the best possible advice indeed. Long term relationships with a (pathological) narcissist are one of the most draining experiences one can have.
How someone gets into such a situation may differ. There are lots of possible reasons why and how this happens.

Something I found out over the years, is that many and even most PN's were victims of a PN, before. They ended up imitating the behavior till they also became a "full-fledged" PN.
In this way it resembles a mind-virus that spreads like a bushfire.

A victim of a PN-spouse (like you are) has had in many cases a parent who was a PN to some degree too.
If your mom and dad were both "nice people", then I would think that it may be, or will be, easier "to break free" from your present situation.

My experiences have been mainly with women that had a PN-mother and became later on PN's themselves. Or, they did not become PN's but ended up marrying a PN
and were in for a life, or at least many years, of pain and heartache. When the emotional abuse happened while they were between 1 and 3 years old, it oftentimes happens
that they personally "take over" the role of the punishing parent and they become self-ostracizing in many ways. While they have no clue why they are doing this.

For me it started in 1975, a long time before the words "malignant or pathological narcissism" were being used. I have been lucky that my parents were no PN's, though
my father had a very tough childhood (mainly because of the war and because his father died when he was two).

Nowadays there is a lot of information about narcissism. Sadly, it looks like the past few years psychs as well as life coaches (and the like) try to tap into this "business" to make a living.
My advice is NOT to go that way. There are plenty of resources that don't cost much or anything at all. Also, there are enough people here on the forum that can help you as well.
And I don't think anyone here would ask money for it.

In case you are looking for more information and suggestions on what to do, feel free to send me a PM.
The best advisors in this matter - I think - are those who "got out" and survived and got stronger in the process.

[Seabreeze]

Thank Flash & Keyholder, I appreciate your advices very much. Have to think it all over...what to do is best. :confused:

[onawah]

Joe From the Carolinas--How To Outsmart Narcissistic Personality Disorder - The Series BEGINS!
Published on Jan 2, 2019

"You CAN outsmart a narcissist. This idea of NPCs has been fairly popular. Where is the jungle gym for how to outsmart narcissistic personality disorder? I believe that NPCs or narcissistic player characters are wonderful individuals that need understanding and firm boundaries. The base rates of narcissism makes it fairly paranormal, while the emotionally heavy narcissistic abuse and gaslighting doesn't help it feel normal at all. Have no worries - As a paranormal and mystery researcher my channel will continue to explore ufology, secret space, secret government programs and technologies, permaculture, as well as primary source material research on all kinds of topics myself and my team find interesting."
#NPCs #Narcissists #NarcissisticPersonalityDisorder #Psychology
6YRJwQWSS8c

[Seabreeze]

I don*t know if you did hear of this already, but there are brain abnormalities found in narcissists.

NPD patients had smaller GM (grey matter) volume in the left anterior insula. Independent of group, GM volume in the left anterior insula was positively related to self-reported emotional empathy. Complementary whole-brain analyses yielded smaller GM volume in fronto-paralimbic brain regions comprising the rostral and median cingulate cortex as well as dorsolateral and medial parts of the prefrontal cortex.


You can read about it here :
https://www.recoveryranch.com/articles/mental-health-articles/brain-abnormalities-found-in-narcissists/

.......the same goes for psychopaths...but it is not the same abnormality than found in the narcissists.

the researchers observed deformations in another part of the brain called the amygdala, with the psychopaths showing a thinning of the outer layer of that region called the cortex and, on average, an 18-percent volume reduction in this part of brain.

"The amygdala is the seat of emotion. Psychopaths lack emotion.

Here you can read about it :
https://www.livescience.com/13083-criminals-brain-neuroscience-ethics.html

Narcissts are harmless compared to Psychopaths..I think....did expierience both of them on my way already and must say, the Psychophaths are more dangerous and ice cold...only pretending to have emotions for others. And they all have a very good selfesteem...and think they are the middle of the world.

The Narcissits just pretends to have a good selfesteem, but inside it is a very insecure person...needing attention around the clock.

Both of them are excellent actors.......

I dont know if this is right, I am only guessing...I think the narcisstic behavior is often caused by expierences the person made while being a child...which can cause certain blockings (feelings/emphaty) and building up the constantly need of attention........??

Just thinking about it. I am not ready to give it all up and run away. I think I might found a way to bring in a healing of my relationship. I believe it is possible.

I am practicing an extremely powerful self-transformation technique by now, got in contact with my subconsciousness, find answers and solutions by it...it is amazing. :sun:

[Flash]

I don*t know if you did hear of this already, but there are brain abnormalities found in narcissists.

NPD patients had smaller GM (grey matter) volume in the left anterior insula. Independent of group, GM volume in the left anterior insula was positively related to self-reported emotional empathy. Complementary whole-brain analyses yielded smaller GM volume in fronto-paralimbic brain regions comprising the rostral and median cingulate cortex as well as dorsolateral and medial parts of the prefrontal cortex.


You can read about it here :
https://www.recoveryranch.com/articles/mental-health-articles/brain-abnormalities-found-in-narcissists/

.......the same goes for psychopaths...but it is not the same abnormality than found in the narcissists.

the researchers observed deformations in another part of the brain called the amygdala, with the psychopaths showing a thinning of the outer layer of that region called the cortex and, on average, an 18-percent volume reduction in this part of brain.

"The amygdala is the seat of emotion. Psychopaths lack emotion.

Here you can read about it :
https://www.livescience.com/13083-criminals-brain-neuroscience-ethics.html

Narcissts are harmless compared to Psychopaths..I think....did expierience both of them on my way already and must say, the Psychophaths are more dangerous and ice cold...only pretending to have emotions for others. And they all have a very good selfesteem...and think they are the middle of the world.

The Narcissits just pretends to have a good selfesteem, but inside it is a very insecure person...needing attention around the clock.

Both of them are excellent actors.......

I dont know if this is right, I am only guessing...I think the narcisstic behavior is often caused by expierences the person made while being a child...which can cause certain blockings (feelings/emphaty) and building up the constantly need of attention........??

Just thinking about it. I am not ready to give it all up and run away. I think I might found a way to bring in a healing of my relationship. I believe it is possible.

I am practicing an extremely powerful self-transformation technique by now, got in contact with my subconsciousness, find answers and solutions by it...it is amazing. :sun:

Good analysis.

As for healing the relationship, if you think you can have your partner modify his brain, better be very early, it is almost impossible without the consciousness or something lacking, in those in which it is lacking, and the strong, very strong desire and will to change, which is almost never (99.99999999% ot time) the case in narcissists.

As far as psychopaths, it is a 100 % of the time lack of consciousness and lack of will/desire.

Someone wanting to modify its neurological pathways and develop some new neurons has to work at it for years, I truly mean counting in dozens of years, with daily brain and body practices, extremely difficult. And older the person, more difficult it is. Most abandon. And this is for people who have no narcissism or psychopathy, therefore the desire of change and betterment.


I am practicing an extremely powerful self-transformation technique by now, got in contact with my subconsciousness, find answers and solutions by it...it is amazing

Great, come on, lets share with us, if you do not mind.

[onawah]

Your guess is supported by Sam Vaknin, an expert in narcissism, and a self-admitted narcissist himself. There are some excellent posts featuring talks from his youtube channel
https://www.youtube.com/user/samvaknin
...on this thread. [QUOTE=Whisper;1268112]

I dont know if this is right, I am only guessing...I think the narcisstic behavior is often caused by expierences the person made while being a child...which can cause certain blockings (feelings/emphaty) and building up the constantly need of attention........??

/QUOTE]

[Seabreeze]

Mahalo, thank you, for your feedback onawah & Flash.

[Seabreeze]

...deleted post....

[onawah]

More great insights into the empath/narcissist relationships, which follow definite patterns, from a great source, Vital Mind Psychology:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_P8aFACl-VqJl0flQPGMQQ/playlists

The characteristic of empaths which is often their downfall is PRIDE, which makes them think they can heal the narcissist, and which the narcissist will use to their great advantage to gain energy supply.
The seeming contradiction to the empath's characteristic of pride is the strength of the internal critic.
See: ClqzFTrUYFU
These 3 may be especially helpful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb6pxGK6mF8&list=PLZBzvqUBXdieBlCwxjNW7zenDRaEQ2bOL

[justntime2learn]

Whisper: Now, knowing my partner is a narcissist....I feel kind of helpless and unsecure, not knowing really what to do. I think I can not trust him at all, knowing he has no empathy for me. It hurts to find this out.


Leave baby, leave. There is not much else to do.

And be sure that the disgusting behavior will be enhanced and make you quite distraught while you are leaving. Prepare your departure, but there is a good chance he will guess it. Be mentally prepared to be strong and to cut all ties.

Tough road, but necessary one. It may take as many years to cure your PTSD from these experiences, and you may fall for other narcissists if you do not learn to love yourself and refuse being damaged by anybody.

@ Whisper,

Once again, I have to agree with flash 100% !

Here's another thread with more stories and advise. Hope it helps: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?95069-ASPD--Anti-Social-Personality-Disorder--BPD--Borderline-Personality-Disorder-&highlight=Sociopath

Blessings on your journey, J

[onawah]

That makes sense, because narcissism is an adaptive response to trauma, and may be what expert on narcissism Sam Vaknin thinks. ( A genius, whose IQ tested off the charts, he started his university education at age 9.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Vaknin
I haven't listened to all this yet, but it's one of his latest interviews, and from the title, is probably addressing the question at hand:
OgsqP8FXUnU
But this is one of the comments on the youtube page: Ben Coles
1 week ago
"Vaknin is full of great insights. However, there is a glaring contradiction: on the one hand he says the future will be dominated by narcissists (selfish, unempathetic, amoral etc) while on the other he says the future belongs to people with female traits (empathetic, caring, cooperative etc). Which one is it?"

I like the title of this one! :lol:Ne96QQorOkI




This gets me thinking though. Could an entire culture become narcissistic or promote individual narcissism?

[Deux Corbeaux]

Nowadays the term "Narcissist" has become a commonly used word for what is called an "Emotional Vampire", or "Energy Vampire".

Emotional vampires feed off of your positive energy while leaving you totally drained.
When you’re feeling joyful, self-assured and confident, they try to come around to "deflate" you with put-downs, criticism or an underhanded tactic to sabotage or undermine you or your ideas.

Interestingly, just as mythical vampires can “bite” their victims and turn them into vampires, I find that the longer you’re around a narcissist (emotional vampire), the more you start to pick up on some of their toxic habits and emotional states...... which was rather shocking when I experienced it.

That’s why it’s important to get as far away as you possibly can, especially if you’re an empath who internalizes the emotions of others like a sponge.

The last thing you need is to become so toxic yourself in response to these types that you forget where the predator begins and you end.

[justntime2learn]

Nowadays the term "Narcissist" has become a commonly used word for what is called an "Emotional Vampire", or "Energy Vampire".

Emotional vampires feed off of your positive energy while leaving you totally drained.
When you’re feeling joyful, self-assured and confident, they try to come around to "deflate" you with put-downs, criticism or an underhanded tactic to sabotage or undermine you or your ideas.

Interestingly, just as mythical vampires can “bite” their victims and turn them into vampires, I find that the longer you’re around a narcissist (emotional vampire), the more you start to pick up on some of their toxic habits and emotional states...... which was rather shocking when I experienced it.

That’s why it’s important to get as far away as you possibly can, especially if you’re an empath who internalizes the emotions of others like a sponge.

The last thing you need is to become so toxic yourself in response to these types that you forget where the predator begins and you end.

I posted a thread a while back that is similar to what's being discussed on this post. Hope it helps: http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?89904-Psychic-Vampires-Psychic-Donors-Psychic-Healers-Psychic-Poisoners&highlight=Vampire


Psychic Vampire:

Drains the positive emotional energy of others. They use any methods to fill the void they have deep within themselves. Best way to stop a psychic is to set emotional boundaries. Psychic Vampires require direction in life to learn how to become independent and not co dependent as they are so used to. Like an addict they can drain others rapidly and always have 1 main characteristic of being needy emotionally and requiring some form of reassurance. Psychic Vampires always attract each other as they love to be social. There is always a head Psychic Vampire that leads the others that they respect. Psychic Vampires should avoid psychic poisoners at all cost for they will lead the psychic vampires to feel more drained and desperate.

Psychic Donor's:

Like to provide reassurance for others by constantly giving and providing positive emotions. They must watch out for they can easily be drained dramatically of all their joy and feel almost dead. Psychic Donor's need to recognize that they have to also watch out and push themselves beyond their capabilities. Psychic Donor's naturally are optimistic about encouraging and helping others. Psychic Donor's should watch out for psychic poisoners as they will completely drain all of their energy and turn them into a Psychic Vampire to a certain extent yet they know its not right inside.



Psychic Healers:

Very rare to find they know the correct amount of positive emotional energy to provide to others. They have a safety switch inside that lets them know when they are being depleted. As a save yourself before its too late. Psychic Healers transfer their positive energy in exchange for the others negative ones then begin healing the negative one and turning it back into a positive energy. Psychic Healers can help Psychic Vampires and Psychic Donor's to decrease their need since they can pin point the source of the taint and reverse it. Psychic Healers really despise Psychic Poisoners since they can instantly spot them and know what they are doing is bring death to all instead of life for everyone including themselves.

Psychic Poisoners:

Are the worst of the worst, they can never give only take. Psychic Poisoners are almost completely deprived of all positive emotions except the one that is keeping them alive. They have a very negative outlook for others saying if I cant have it then no one can. Psychic Poisoners are very 2 faced one to get your guard down the other to keep you in a mirage while they are secretly stealing your positive emotions in exchange for their negative ones. By the time one realizes or escapes, the damage has already been done. Psychic Poisoners love Psychic Vampires to manipulate and use them as minions while feeding them poison to keep them under control. Psychic Poisoners are highly attracted to Psychic Donor's since they give selflessly always. Psychic Poisoners can't stand Psychic Healers since they force themselves to really question about how long do you really wish to feel really dead inside knowing that if others find out you'll really be alone to face yourself.

[Flash]

I felt on this video which I find quite quite interesting.

Don't rely on its title for describing its content, because it does not.

It described the difference between narcissistic (over narcissism), borderline personality disorder and Histrionic personality disorder, while comparing with PTSD disorders (post traumatic stress disorder).

He shows how a narcissist, often attributed to men, often has its equivalent in borderline personalities, but that both are in fact different sides of narcissism. In fact, from what I see, the borderline would be more the covert narcissist type.

He also tell how PTSD, which often seems like borderline symptoms, is in fact treatable and that you can have PTSD due to exposure to narcissism and psychopatic destruction.

It is for those who already have some basis in psychology

To listen to the end, good information up to the end


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UE5fZaAzXws

[onawah]

New talks on narcissism from Sam Vaknin
Narcissism, the New Faith -
Part 1: Distributed God and Human Sacrifice
1/14/19
b87WQj3q0_w

Narcissism, the New Faith - Part 2: Missionary Cult and the End of Society
buNFfb43oC0

Narcissism: The New Normal? (Mental Health Speak Show)

Sam Vaknin
Published on Jan 15, 2019

"Host of Mental Health Speak Show, LaTonya Davison, asks Sam Vaknin about the formation of pathological narcissism in early childhood, whether narcissism is the new normal, explores Cold Therapy, and discusses narcissism as a new, global faith.

LaTonya Davison is a social psychologist and LMSW (Licensed Master Social Worker).

Sam Vaknin ( http://samvak.tripod.com/mediakit.html ) is the author of Malignant Self-love: Narcissism Revisited as well as many other books and ebooks about topics in psychology, relationships, philosophy, economics, international affairs, and award-winning short fiction.

He is Visiting Professor of Psychology, Southern Federal University, Rostov-on-Don, Russia and Professor of Finance and Psychology in CIAPS (Centre for International Advanced and Professional Studies)."
5Ibu59P472A

[Flash]

First five minutes of the video, Dr Peterson describes how psychopathy detected in childhood (4 years old) is extremely stable over time and a very strong predictive of real problems makers later on in life.

The student ask a long question unrelated to start with, then Dr Peterson starts with psychopathy, to go into IQ and people later on.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m91vhePuzdo

[onawah]

It would be interesting to hear a discussion between Peterson and Sam Vaknin about narcissism and how it is manifesting in the current controversies and media-driven politics!

[Flash]

It would be interesting to hear a discussion between Peterson and Sam Vaknin about narcissism and how it is manifesting in the current controversies and media-driven politics!

yes it would

Here Dr Peterson on psychopath, part of one of his courses at University of Toronto


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThRr1g4qFMA

[Seabreeze]

Hey, thanks to all of you for all the feedback to my story. And I am getting more close to the point...you all did advice me to - to leave. But it will take some time. I have to clear certain things first. It is not easy. I am pretty much hooked into this relationship for a long time already.

I just came back from a one week trip - which was very rough and filled with narcisstic tactics by my man...and I am totally drained out by now. Just tired and no more energy for nothing. I have to recover from this past week and try to build up some energy again. Which will not be easy either being around a narcissist daily.

He really did everything to make this past trip difficult. I gave it up, long time already to try to explain this or that to him. It does not make sense to put in all this energy to explain something towards a narcissist - because he wont listen anyways. All what is important to a Narcissist is what he has to say, what he thinks and thinks to know....

He often, just falls me, into the middle of a sentences I try to say...cutting me of this way...without even knowing what I am trying to say. Thats his favorite style. And not only cutting me off verbaly...he will continue speaking until I just give it up to say anything at all.

Or he quickly changes the subject into something, which has nothing to do with the subject anymore which was brought up first. He often goes on like this until I resignate. I am so tired of this.

And I dont see, why I should try to figgure out how come he is like this or that or why does he react like this and not the other way and so on...... I think the Narcissists take way to much time and energy of other peoples already. They are energy vampiers. I am not a doctor or therapist.

He should think about how he can change his bad habbits or how come he is how he is. And find professional help for himself. But me, I am getting tired to do so. I did spend many years already into this and it still is not getting any better. I have to think more about myself and what this narcisstic field I am in, does to me and towards my health.

He has good sides too - surely. But it is getting destroyed permanently by the narcisstic actions which are around daily. It was not always like this...but now I know, in the beginning he just was playing this game the narcissits play first....very understanding and polite and pretending he is thinking the same way I do and so on...... It is hurting to find out this was all only a fake and a bunch of lies.....

Anyways, I did listen to this video here..and this is pretty much what I expierience in communication with my partner daily :

This video is a daughter / narcissist father communication....but pretty much the same I go through every day...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRKI6Q3sryk

[onawah]

I'm sure I speak for everyone, Whisper, in congratulating you for understanding and and supporting you in being ready to move on, and wishing you a speedy, positive transition!



And no worry, if I get out of this somehow....there wont be no danger I will end up with another narcissist again. I wont be looking for another relationship.

PS Be aware the narcissists who may show up in an empath's life may not always be their mate--it can be a boss, a "friend", an associate, etc....

[ErtheVessel]

A conversation with a narcissist is never about communication between two people. Not Ever. The only reason a narcissist talks to you, or to anyone, is to manipulate some kind of response from you that will confirm and support his or her own self-image and reality. If that can be done positively (idealizing/flattery), that's great, if not, it will be done negatively (cruelty, blaming, etc.) It matters not at all to them. To continue to hope that at some point the narcissist will actually listen to what you are saying, or be reasonable and rational, or take responsibility for his or her words or behavior in any way, is always a false hope and a futile fantasy.

I do believe narcissism is a response to childhood trauma (and perhaps soul loss due to that trauma), and I actually have some compassion for them about that. It's a terrible thing that I would not wish on anyone. But that doesn't mean I know how to fix them or that my love and dedication and life energy will help or heal them even one iota. I've learned this the hard way.

Compassion is essential in life, and yet we are each primarily responsible for the growth of only our own soul. For me, I finally know that it is impossible for me to give to the narcissist what he truly needs. Perhaps no one can give him that. Or if they can, he must genuinely ask for their help first. Only then is there hope of change or some kind of healing.

That's my 2 cents, anyway.

[Seabreeze]

ErtheVessel, I totaly agree to this :


I do believe narcissism is a response to childhood trauma (and perhaps soul loss due to that trauma), and I actually have some compassion for them about that. It's a terrible thing that I would not wish on anyone. But that doesn't mean I know how to fix them or that my love and dedication and life energy will help or heal them even one iota. I've learned this the hard way.

yes, by now I think like this too. And I really think it has to do in many cases, with a childhood trauma. My man talks way to often about his childhood or about times he was a teenager. Which is telling me how situations from his past are still upfront daily in his mind.

I guess, those childhood traumas cause some to develope narcissistic habbits, others become highly sensitive.

I don*t know anymore, where I read or did hear it..but it was said...the person...mostlikly did build up this narcissistic symptoms early in the childhood to protect themselfs........... or one parent was a narcissist already and children growing up in a field like this, often become narcissists themselves.

I think narcissists need professional help to get out of this roller coaster they did often build up by themselves. And I believe it would be possible, for a good therapist to change at least some of their bad habbits. I don*t think it is a very harmonic living whatsoever to constantly think on how to get attention or response from others to build up the own unsecure selfesteem. Actually I think it is a very sad way to live. For the narcissist I believe there is still hope to find a healing.

But the psychopaths, I don*t think so. The study showed they have a part in their brain shrinked or missing....and what is not there anymore or damaged...can not get rebuild.

[ErtheVessel]

Yes, Whisper, it's true. The lost time does not come back.

I, too, think it may be possible for some narcissists to be helped by therapy, but I think that the narcissist has to deeply want that therapy. That is something only the narcissist can choose for himself.

I wish you so much courage and strength and many blessings in any move you make to reclaim your life and step forward into freedom. It can be done, and you are now so much wiser as a consequence of your difficult journey.

Be very careful, and always know you are worth it. :flower:

[Seabreeze]

http://yoursmiles.org/tsmile/say/t2905.gif

[Seabreeze]

..deleted post.....

[Flash]

Uh, does not look to good for me right now. Guess I have to postphone my plan, to leave, for right now. See, the thing is not only the narcisstic attitude my partner has. He has another mental problem. He has mania episodes. In his case a mania episode stays about 6 - 8 weeks until it stops. One just started yesterday again. And now I do feel sorry for his condition again. He did talk a lot about his childhood yesterday again..hours. I could not stop him. He has the urge to talk all the time right now. He really needs some help. I can not just walk away and leave him like this.

Any idea on what I could do? He is hooked to the VA, where I did call yesterday already. But not much help from there so far.

This is precisely why he started a manic episode, so that you will stay.

this does not mean that the mania episodes are not true, they probably are and are based on stress. Losing one's slave who gives you the center of attention is quite stressful.

My opinion (my ex husband also had manic episodes, I ended up so sick because I stayed much too long - when the mania will be on how to damage and harm you as much as possible because you dared leaving, you will not have pity anymore)

Narcissists, if it is what he is, will never seek help or if they do, it will be out of manipulation. They are the good ones, you are the bad one.

[justntime2learn]

Once the narcissist believes you're about to leave, the erratic behavior will increase, seemingly innocent at first.

After enduring a beating from my ex-wife in front of my children and her oldest brother, I called the police. She was arrested and served a no contact order. I told the police after she was arrested that I couldn't believe that happened and I was glad it was over. The deputy looked me right in the eyes and said, Mr Wyatt it's just begun. I didn't know what he meant by that then, but I surely do now.

I filed for divorce a few days after the beating in March, 2010, but went back because she was going to change. She was right in that it did change although the change was for the worst by a long shot. I filed for divorce the second time in April of 2011 and didn't look back!

Whisper, I would like to say that it has just begun ...

Be kind to yourself,

J

[onawah]

It sounds like you are assuming he will improve, and then it will be OK for you to leave.
But he might only get worse.
And it could be that he instinctively knew you were thinking of leaving and that kicked in the neediness twice as much.

Is there a point at which you would begin to put yourself and your own needs first?
Do you know what that point is?
Have you found anyone in your physical reality there who might be able to help you transition?

[Seabreeze]

.........
Thanks to all of you for the informations and back up so far....it sure helps to hear your opinion........:waving:

[Flash]

Yes, he felt back into his childish behavior, knowing that you would stay. The savior with the victim. The mom..


But, he is not your child. He is not a child.

All we tell you are not opinions. They are experiences, which is 1000 times more worth listening than mere opinions.

Why is it that victims of narcissists are so adept of blindness and self lying? (I know, I have been there)

[onawah]

Shelters for victims of domestic abuse often have free counseling and support groups, or could at least refer you to other sources of assistance.
Women's support groups are usually free and even if you don't know any of the members personally, they can be very helpful.
It really sounds like you need to reach out and get some support, even if it's only emotional support.
Even small steps will lead to larger steps in time.

[ErtheVessel]

Whisper, here is another thought, in case it is useful to you. :)

When you give a narcissist your attention and caring, he is never going to reciprocate. He craves attention and, unfortunately, it doesn't really matter who gives it to him. If you are a reliable and steady source of attention, he will want to hold on to you, because his survival depends upon someone's attention. It is not really specific to you, even though his manic and/or love-bombing phase may make you feel special and valued and appreciated. YOU are not special to him. The attention he is receiving from you is what he is seeking and insistent upon keeping and has nothing at all to do with you personally. This can be a very bitter realization.

[samildamach]

My thoughts from experience.
We are all to some degree narcissists,most of us have are little talks with our ego and keep it under control.
It is about me not them,its how I respond to what I perceive as there madness,gass lighting,total unreasonable accusations based on lies and fabrication.
If you engage you lose, the more you engage the bigger the loss,never ever engage,be smart be calm,be love.
Everybody will tell you there is no helping a narcissist,run away don't look back,get out,its not always possible especially if your the favoured target because your empathic or there your mum and dad sister or brother.
Try these they really work,which then gives you the chance to help them and empower you at the same time.

I know you think iam strange but I can live with that.
Iam not always right nobody's perfect

Make sure you have boundaries and they know what they are.

[Seabreeze]

Yes, I think you all are right with your sayings. I have to straighten up my life somehow.


I guess it is often like this, we believe what we want to believe and ignore the signs which tell us something different.

[Seabreeze]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WtsPc3w9XU

[Deux Corbeaux]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WtsPc3w9XU


There’s one more game, “The Silence Treatment”.
It’s cruel and should not be used as punishment, or to correct a child’s behavior. It creates confusion, sadness, anxiety and resentment. It’s a form of rejection that makes a child feel invisible. Children don’t have the social development and skills to deal with such a situation.

When you are in a relationship with a narcissist, a silence treatment can also be used to cheat on you. They found another source of supply meanwhile and are certainly not thinking of YOU.

Just don’t underestimate the power of a silence treatment. It’s warfare usage, like you are a POW. It’s proven torture, no jokes.

The funny thing is, after the silent treatment they act like nothing ever happened.......


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XisdRlbWHAY

[IndigoSpiral]

So I’m going to jump in the deep end with my first personal post as this is a subject very close to my heart. After being in an abusive relationship for 7 ½ years, I only finally realised about 9 months ago that I’m actually in a relationship with a narcissist. If not full blown NPD, he is certainly quite heavily on the spectrum. I came across an article or a post on social media around that time and literally could not believe what I was reading – it was something like “How to Tell if you are in a Relationship with a Narcissist” and I found myself reading the story of my relationship. The scales started to fall away from my eyes. I cannot tell you the initial relief of discovering I was not mad, going insane or worse. I had been beating myself up for so long for being weak and feeling helpless, not realising I was trauma bonded and had been gas-lighted and emotionally abused to the point that my self esteem was shattered, I was exhausted all of the time and totally emotionally drained. I was a shell of my former self.

Once the relief had worn off I started obsessively researching, reading and watching anything and everything I could get my hands on. Knowledge really is power in this case and it made it easier for me to identify triggers, detach from his behaviour and to try not to react to the constant baiting, put downs and all the other behaviours that accompany this destructive condition.

I also discovered that I am hopelessly co-dependent. Having grown up with an alcoholic, narcissistic father and being relentlessly bullied in primary school, my sense of worthlessness and lack of self esteem was ingrained at an early age. Only now at the age of 46 am I starting to piece the shattered pieces of my life back together. I can totally see why I must have been a shining beacon that attracted this particular person into my life.

Anyway, I digress. It was a big revelation to me to learn about co-dependency and not an easy thing to admit to myself. I had always felt that despite everything I had turned out ok, I have strength and stamina and have overcome many adverse situations in my life. This situation didn’t happen overnight though, I’ve started referring to it as “death by 1,000 paper cuts”. The first one stings a little but it’s nothing you can’t deal with, and on it goes until you are a bloody, unhealed mess of trauma. The walking wounded, but you can’t work out how the hell you even got there. Then the wounds scab over and start to heal, only to be picked at by the narcissist and re-opened, re-traumatising you over and over again.

So I am still with this man but am in the final stages (I hope) of breaking free. I wanted to share some of the articles that have helped me come to terms with my situation and have helped me to get to the right place psychologically. I especially wanted to share these with Whisper, I KNOW how difficult it is to break free – I am still in the process of doing it myself. Although I feel like I’m approaching the home strait, I still have bad days and wonder if I’m just kidding myself and I’ll never be free.

When I came across this article I cannot tell you the relief that I felt and the support it gave me. One of the hardest things about suffering this kind of abuse is feeling like you cannot tell anyone because all they do is tell you to “just leave”. This is a totally valid response and you know that of course you should leave and cannot believe that you haven’t. I cannot tell you the hell I put myself through for having no respect for myself and allowing him to treat me like this. It’s a constant internal battle that had me thinking suicidal thoughts on many occasions. I have sent this article to some of my family and close friends to help them understand and it has worked. I can now talk about what is happening and they are not constantly pressuring me to just leave him and understand that I have to be ready and do it in my own time.

https://selfcarehaven.wordpress.com/2014/12/29/why-do-we-stay-dismantling-stereotypes-about-abuse-survivors/

Here are a few quotes that really stood out for me:

"To the outside world, abuse survivors appear to face an easy decision: leave or stay in the abusive relationship as soon as they endure an emotionally or physically abusive incident. Internally, however, they struggle with cognitive dissonance, damaging conditioning from intermittent reinforcement, PTSD-like symptoms, trauma bonds, any previous trauma from past abusive relationships or experiencing abuse in their childhood, Stockholm syndrome, feelings of worthlessness and learned helplessness – just to name a few."

"Not leaving sooner is not an indication or a measure of a victim’s strength or intelligence. It has more to do with the severity of trauma they have experienced. This false narrative of how easy it is to end an abusive relationship is actually holding us back from creating safer spaces for survivors to feel validated, supported, and being able to speak out about their experiences – this support is essential to any victim in an abusive relationship."

"Ending the relationship is made even more difficult if trauma from previous relationships or childhood exists. It’s a fact: children who grow up witnessing domestic violence within their own families have been reported to more likely to be victims of abusive relationships themselves. It may almost seem normalized because of the behaviors we’re unconsciously modelling from our childhood. We might identify with the victimized parent, or may even have promised ourselves we would never be like them, only to have unconsciously chosen a partner that has enabled us to attempt to “fix” our past by attempting to fix our abusive partner."

"They aren’t psychologically ready to leave. Tony Robbins makes an astute observation in his book, Awaken the Giant Within: we only stop a bad habit or behavior when the pain of it far surpasses any pleasure or reward."

"None of the best advice in the world can convince us until we feel that inner transformation and until we reach that turning point where we say to ourselves: I’ve had enough. I am enough. And so much better than this.”

I won’t quote from this article but I have found this to be extremely helpful also:

https://esteemology.com/dont-just-leave-understanding-hooks-abusive-relationships/

Every relationship is different and everyone has their own reasons and breaking points, for me a psychological shift absolutely had to take place. That involved cleaning up my act in many ways and taking responsibility for my part in the relationship. I’m getting to the place where I don’t expect anything from him because it’s not there to give. I didn’t know this until very recently and have grieved for what I thought the relationship was. When I’m feeling weak and extremely low about it all I remind myself of this quote from another excellent article:

“You will never feel truly loved. You will never feel comfortable. You will never feel safe.”

https://esteemology.com/a-relationship-without-empathy/

I hope I've embedded the links correctly - this is my first time posting anything with links to articles!

Much love, IS x

[Seabreeze]

Thank you so much for your post IndigoSpiral.
I sure apprechiate this very much. I will read the posted links and everything, more close and detailed later on for sure.

Looks like we are sitting in the same boat at the time.

What you wrote IndigoSpiral....how you found out you are in a relationship with a narcissist..sound almost like my own story. Me, too..reading or watching a video about narcissists...all my lights went on..... and it just flashed to me.......my husband is a narcissist.

What I find very hard, is trying to explain others (family members) about the narcissistic symptoms my partner has. Often they don*t want to believe it, cause they see him in the light he likes to create around him...charming, helpful, very understanding aso. He is a very good entertainer and people like this. They don*t see the fact - he is only trying to get their attention because he lives by it.

This is his main part in public...he wants to get the attention of others. It does not matter whos attention - the cashier lady, the yard man, the office clerk...and so on.

People often say - wow what a great, nice guy....not knowing his other sides he has and he shows mainly in privacy. He is a pretty good actor also. And most people, even old friends...don*t realize the narcissitic side he has. They might never did read or hear anything about narcissitic symptoms or behavements before.

This often makes it very difficult for me....he always looks like the nice, friendly, charming guy and me like the frustrated wife next to him.

And what you wrote here :

“You will never feel truly loved. You will never feel comfortable. You will never feel safe.”

Yes, this is how it is...I agree.....

Once again...thank so much for your post....:flower:

[IndigoSpiral]

Hi Whisper,

You’re welcome :) It’s amazing how many people have the same stories isn’t it? One of the things I’ve seen during my research is that in many cases it feels like I am reading from a script of what’s happened to me. A whole new world opened up and I felt like I went from being totally alone and wondering if I was going insane, to being a part of a community where I felt validated and what I was experiencing was normal for this kind of abuse. A particularly sinister side of this type of situation is the gas-lighting and the questioning of your reality, especially when you’re already traumatised. Plus it goes in cycles of Mr Nice vs Mr Nasty and the nice side can last for weeks sometimes – I used to think, “I can’t believe I wanted to leave him, he’s my best friend, I can’t imagine my life without him”. That was abuse amnesia and cognitive dissonance because as soon as Mr Nasty reappeared I’d be right back to square one.

It’s really difficult isn’t it? They present such a convincing mask to the world and are generally good actors, charismatic and charming. Certainly his own family think he’s the best thing since sliced bread. I get the blame for everything, even if he has a particularly nasty outburst in front of one of them – somehow it’s still my fault. I suspect his mother is a narcissist too and I believe he is one not because he suffered abuse or neglect in his childhood, but because he was spoilt rotten. He was the “golden child” which is what I think has led to his excessive entitlement. I am constantly amazed at how nice he can be to complete strangers in contrast with how horrible he is to me. He has this knack of being able to play the long lost son/grandson to older people or the wise sage to younger people and they are utterly convinced. And yes it is all about getting attention! Any attention, he is determined to win people over with his boyish charm at any cost.

I’m really lucky with my family in that my sisters are very savvy and they cottoned on to him a while ago. I’m also lucky to have a good support network of non-judgemental, understanding friends – although it’s still really difficult to explain how a narcissist doesn’t play by the same rules as a “normal” person. They can’t understand how I can’t have a normal break up conversation with him without him flying into a rage and threatening all sorts of things. They don’t understand about narcissistic rage or injury (I didn’t until I started researching and wow that was a big light bulb moment – he is absolutely textbook). And it’s not like they’re going to read the thousands of articles I have read over the last 10 months to get a handle on this. We were talking last week about how to approach the split up and they were giving me lots of good advice that would absolutely work if you are dealing with a normal, reasonable person. They just don’t understand that it’s not like dealing with a normal person – they don’t play by the same rules. It’s like dealing with a spiteful 5 year old in an adult’s body.

I’m so sorry it’s been going on for so long for you Whisper – however, another thing I have learned is that it’s never too late to get your life back. There are so many women (and men) who have been stuck in lifelong relationships/marriages who have realised what is happening and turned their lives around. I can’t believe I only came across this information under a year ago! I can only assume that it came at the time I was ready to start dealing with it and it just slipped under my radar before.

Once you find out I feel there is no going back – however long it takes you to leave the relationship, you can’t “unlearn” or “unsee” what you now know. That light bulb that goes on – you can’t turn it off. What I have found is that not pressuring yourself on a time limit is good (unless you are in immediate physical danger). You really do have to get yourself psychologically strong enough and ready to deal with whatever they can throw at you and to resist “hoovering” tactics. It’s taken me almost a year and I’ve still not left him.

I just wanted to share one more thing with you – this lady has helped me immensely:

https://www.melanietoniaevans.com/
You can sign up to a free 16 day recovery course – it doesn’t matter whether you are still with the narcissist, you can still start your healing journey. She believes that it is the unhealed trauma within ourselves that attracted the narcissist to us at a deeper level.

I do feel that this has happened to me to allow me to heal my childhood trauma and other traumas from my life. It has led me to much self reflection and has helped me to see the themes and patterns of my life more clearly as it has brought them crashing violently to the surface. It is helping me to learn how to deal with pain that I have repressed for most of my life. It is helping me address my feelings of unworthiness and never being good enough. I hope that one day I will be able to forgive myself for allowing him to treat me the way he has.

Another thing I’ve been doing is just trying to make little decisions each day that keep me moving in the right direction. It could be something as small as one phone call or asking someone a question or checking out prices on local self storage units.

It’s really lovely to be able to talk with someone who understands – stay strong and know that you can do this! Go easy on yourself and remember you don’t have to make massive decisions which can be totally overwhelming.

Thanks for your reply to my post :flower:
Much love, IS :bearhug:

[RunningDeer]

11 Things Narcissists Do When You Ignore Them (And 7 Ways to Deal) - (3:42 minutes)





If you've ever tried ignoring a narcissist, you know it's no easy feat. in this video, I'll explain what happens when you (or any narcissistic supply) ignores a narcissist, a toxic person or anyone with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD). Plus, I'll give you 7 quick ways to deal with the situation so you can stay no contact and stay safe.

Angie Atkinson YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/user/AuthorAngelaAtkinson/videos)

NOEy--5-aUM

Angie Atkinson
Published on Feb 20, 2019

[onawah]

Dissociation (Amnesia) & Confabulation in Narcissism (Intl. Conf. Clinical Counseling Psychology)
Sam Vaknin
Published on Feb 25, 2019

Video presentation to the 4th International Conference of Clinical and Counseling Psychology, Tokyo, August 2019
https://clinical-psychology.psychiatryconferences.com/organizing-committee.php

"Narcissists and psychopaths dissociate (erase memories) a lot (are amnesiac) because their contact with the world and with others is via a fictitious construct: the False Self. Narcissists never experience reality directly but through a distorting lens darkly. They get rid of any information that challenges their grandiose self-perception and the narrative they had constructed to explicate, excuse, and legitimize their antisocial, self-centred, and exploitative behaviors, choices, and idiosyncrasies.

In an attempt to compensate for the yawning gaps in memory, narcissists and psychopaths confabulate: they invent plausible "plug ins" and scenarios of how things might, could, or should have plausibly occurred. To outsiders, these fictional stopgaps appear as lies. But the narcissist fervently believes in their reality: he may not actually remember what had happened - but surely it could not have happened any other way!

These tenuous concocted fillers are subject to frequent revision as the narcissist's inner world and external circumstances evolve. This is why narcissists and psychopaths often contradict themselves. Tomorrow's confabulation often negates yesterday's. The narcissist and psychopath do not remember their previous tales because they are not invested with the emotions and cognitions that are integral parts of real memories."

2t3rMADgSvU

[Seabreeze]

update : I had some heavy incidents lately. Narcissistic attacs.... And impulsive...right away...I checked the net for another place to live and guess what `? I found one and could rent it for 2 month. Take off......... is next month..... I just hope not to get weak again. Emotionally I am pretty mixed up at the time. All I know is....I have to get out of this asap. I have to protect myself from this kind......


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKM0MJFv888 .................................................. .... :shielddeflect:

Have to make a plan on when and how to tell my partner.... I am afraid to do so, not knowing how he will react to it.

[Flash]

update : I had some heavy incidents lately. Narcissistic attacs.... And impulsive...right away...I checked the net for another place to live and guess what `? I found one and could rent it for 2 month. Take off......... is next month..... I just hope not to get weak again. Emotionally I am pretty mixed up at the time. All I know is....I have to get out of this asap. I have to protect myself from this kind......


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKM0MJFv888 .................................................. .... :shielddeflect:

Have to make a plan on when and how to tell my partner.... I am afraid to do so, not knowing how he will react to it.

Move first, tell after.

How long have you been with him? No children involved? We owe nothing to them, when they are bad to us. And yes, we are better alone than badly paired.

The question is; WHY IN HELL DO WE KEEP MEETING THEM AND WHY IN HELL DO WE KEEP FALLING FOR THIS. This is where the mixed up mind is, not if we should stay or not.

[ErtheVessel]

I think Flash is right, you need to move first, tell after. Please do not underestimate the power the narcissist probably still has over you emotionally.

Here is another article from Self Care Haven:

https://selfcarehaven.wordpress.com/2017/02/21/20-diversion-tactics-highly-manipulative-narcissists-sociopaths-and-psychopaths-use-to-silence-you/

It is oh-so-easy to fall back into the spell of the narcissist, or to let fear cripple and paralyze you.

You are worthy of a life free from this terrible emotional torture!

[Seabreeze]

Thanks for your opinion. I know...it would be the best...just leave and maybe leave a note on the table. But it is a bit more complicated, because where we live right now....I am renting this place and I am responsible for it towards the landlord. And I have to inform the landlord..I am moving out. He (landlord) proably shows up here then for a check up and talk.

I have to think about this.... I am not paying another month rent here, is all I know. Had to pay 2 month rent already for my new place. I am a bit confused right now. ................................................................................................:fac epalm:

And then...my man is not only a narcissist...like I wrote before. He has another mental disorder. also...he has mania episodes. He is in one right now...(5 weeks already)...and totaly off and very spacey. So I am the only stable, clear minded person around here. And I feel responsible towards the landlord and to organize something, so my man is not getting homeless in this condition he is in right now. He can not keep this place by himself financially. I got him a social worker from the VA already to make sure he has some kind of back up, when I am not around anymore.

I know I should just think about myself and leave without thinking about how this will effect him. But I am not like this. I still have feelings for him and I am so much used to always take care everything, to organize aso. Stupid..isnt it?

Got brainwashed for to long. :washing:: ----------------- :fencing:

[justntime2learn]

I was married for 20 years waiting for her to grow up and appreciate all that I had done for her. Of course, that never happened, but only worsened.

Leaving her was the hardest thing I ever did, but I did it.

It's been 8 years now and I'm so much happier. What a blessing to be out of that Web of Lies!

Whisper, I'm offering my highest intentions that you may be strong.

[ErtheVessel]

Whisper, it makes total sense that you want to handle things responsibly. I understand your need to handle business things with integrity while you also take care of your own needs with self-compassion - that can be very complicated. I wish you great courage as you make this journey toward freedom!

[Flash]

Thanks for your opinion. I know...it would be the best...just leave and maybe leave a note on the table. But it is a bit more complicated, because where we live right now....I am renting this place and I am responsible for it towards the landlord. And I have to inform the landlord..I am moving out. He (landlord) proably shows up here then for a check up and talk.

I have to think about this.... I am not paying another month rent here, is all I know. Had to pay 2 month rent already for my new place. I am a bit confused right now. ................................................................................................:fac epalm:

And then...my man is not only a narcissist...like I wrote before. He has another mental disorder. also...he has mania episodes. He is in one right now...(5 weeks already)...and totaly off and very spacey. So I am the only stable, clear minded person around here. And I feel responsible towards the landlord and to organize something, so my man is not getting homeless in this condition he is in right now. He can not keep this place by himself financially. I got him a social worker from the VA already to make sure he has some kind of back up, when I am not around anymore.

I know I should just think about myself and leave without thinking about how this will effect him. But I am not like this. I still have feelings for him and I am so much used to always take care everything, to organize aso. Stupid..isnt it?

Got brainwashed to long. :washing:: We are married for 14 years. :fencing:

You make me think of me. I went out with my ex husband for 2 years, then split, went away alone for time off, and when back he had found the house of my dream, within the price range I had set up, and told me everything he could to convince me to come back. Within two years, he had learned my language and I was therefore easy to convince.

I came back to give it a chance, so I thought. For 2 years he was fine, we would have major fights only once a month, while previously it was twice weekly interspace with 100s of nasty comments and crisis behaviors. Then I got pregnant. He was tolerable during the pregnancy. But as soon as I gave birth, all hell broke lose.

He thought he had me caught, no more efforts, his very nasty behavior was all back and more. I remained 4 more years because I had a child + one because he would not leave when I asked him . In hindsight, I should have gone away with my infant years prior. Or I should never have believed him when I was back after the split.

I was taking care of everything as well, the house, the cleaning, the baby, the repairs, the car, name it, plus work. He had convinced me through constant harassment to build a company that we could use in both continents, so I built it, thinking that once installed, he would take care of the company in Turkey 8 months a year, and that I would be able to stand him the other 4 months, 2 months at a time. I am the one who built it, got government grants, got the corporate Canadian partners, got bankers backing, and went to Turkey 5-6 months a year (in 2-3 shots) during 4 years to install the company there, report to our partners in Canada, do the feasibility study, etc etc. While having my toddler with me at all time. He would remain in Canada, in his university well paid job, making 2 full salaries. I had taken a tiny salary, dealing with him that the money left at the end of the feasibility study would be mine. Guess what, the money left at the end of the study was never given to me. I worked 4 years basically for free.

Then it took three more years to get the divorce, he was trying to put me on the street and he succeeded. I had to borrow money from my mom to survive and pay for my daughter's treatments. To finally start a company as I had thought years ago, but then with a handicap daughter who needed treatments, no time to make millions. Only the time to be hired on a daily basis for corporate trainings I wrote.

How we get scre wed up is unbelievable.

If I would have started what I wanted to start at the time I wanted, here in Canada, I would have made many millions - everyone who did it at the time made millions, because of governmental push and subsidies.

So my point remains, if it were to be done again, I would leave much much earlier and not tell him, in order to avoid thousands of problems he created.

I was married for 12 years.

Leave and tell after if you can.

[Seabreeze]

justintime2learn/Flash...I am so sorry...what you had to go through. But main thing you made it and are doing better now.

[onawah]

He may be sensing that you are going to leave, and could get much worse, so I agree it would be wisest for you to disappear, get away as soon as possible, leave no trail. Once you are free, you will have so much more energy, and peace and clarity of mind. You don't owe him anything, quite the contrary. Let the dead bury the dead (spiritually dead). If you need support, look into shelters for abused women. They should know how to help you to make a safe, clean break.


I have to think on how exactly I can get out of here without informing anybody. I think you are right.....it's proably the best just to dissapear one day and leave a note on the table. And I think...I wont get weak anymore. By now I know my husband does not learn out of expieriences at all. He always is doing the same wrong moves...over and over again.....

[Seabreeze]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Kivk8r994k

[Rebecca]

Hi Whisper. I just left my husband a week and a day ago. It was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do.

Yes, leave without telling him! Last year I simply told my husband I had scheduled a phone session with a divorce counselor and he hit me in the head in front of our son, then smashed the phone he was letting me borrow. These creatures can be very dangerous when they think their source of energy is going to leave.

In my case, we were together over 9 years, married for almost 7. We have a son who will be 4 soon. My ex husband has had a girlfriend living with us for over 3 years and they have a business together. They also have a daughter who is almost 2 and I used to be her primary caretaker because of how many hours a day her mother worked. Leaving for me was a real challenge

I finally decided to ask my father for money to stay at a hotel so I could have a safe, private place to call shelters from. He did, and the next morning I told my ex husbandi was taking our son to the store. My belongings were already packed and in trash bags so it would look like I was just discarding some rubbish...

From there I walked to the grocery store across the street to use their phone (I don't have one), then called a cab from there to another store that cashes Western Union (that's how my father sent the money)... From there a called a cab to a nearby hotel. The whole process was very scary, I kept worrying about being caught.

Because I don't have a phone I had to be so prepared.. I had to have a list of cab services and hotels and their phone numbers with me that I wrote out the night or two before.

At the hotel I celebrated and rested. The very next morning I called shelters in my state and in about an hour got accepted into one that let's you stay at least 90 days!!! I lucked out because the shelter is far from the town my ex lives in and it's not a place he normally does business in.

The cab ride from the hotel to the shelter was $52 but it was worth every penny. Being at the hotel was a small risk because if I never found a shelter soon enough I would have run out of money to stay there, I only had enough for one more night but fortunately didn't need to stay for more than one.

Any feelings you think you have for this man are probably an illusion because of his charm. My ex is very charming too... The kind of man who would get compliments at work and was known as such a helpful good person. So smiley... Friendly... Funny... Witty.. And very very intelligent. He's ones of the most intelligent people I've met in person but his delusional beliefs prevent him from true enlightenment.

It's best to leave without telling him for sure. If you do decide to leave a note, do not leave it in plain sight as he may start frantically looking for you like a rabid animal. You ought to put it somewhere that may take him awhile to find.

In my case, I contacted his mother when I got to the hotel and told her my son and I were at a shelter so he wouldn't go looking for us. Even though we weren't at a shelter yet I said that to through off his trail.

I haven't said a word to him since leaving which is hard because we have a child together, but I don't want to engage with him without legal protection .

It's great that you are sharing this here because having support from others is crucial. Without sharing my experiences with others I probably would not have broken contact with him. I was so isolated and the abuse was so normalized after years of repetition that I was in a daze... Believing his claims that everything would be worthwhile in the future if I just cooperated with him and followed his suggestions.

I can relate all too well to the feeling of walking on eggshells... So much so that I would dread the sound of him waking up for years! I didn't fully understand it but now it all makes sense. My heart would race, stomach churning, my muscles would tense up... I'd anxiously make stupid mistakes around him... I was living in fear.

I can relate to the manic behaviors too. He said I'm bipolar... But this man would go from screaming to whistling gaily in a short period of time. I began to hate the sound of his overly cheery whistling because of the amount of times he'd disrespect someone, not apologize, but then go on whistling loudly as though nothing ever happened.

Onawah is right that you will have so much energy once you leave. It's like a heavy weight will be lifted and you won't have to walk on eggshells in your own home.

Another tip I would suggest is repeatedly go over your plan once it's made... Write it out (even if this means throwing the papers away), fine tune it, every last detail should be reviewed. This will make it all go smoother. Organize your belongings way in advance. I had at least half of mine packed and hidden for a week or so (though in my rush to get out I left a few important items behind).

When you feel fear (I felt intense fear during the final days) repeat empowering phrases to yourself like "I can do this ".you can even do what I did and set the phrase as some of your passwords so that you'll be forced to type the words to open your phone or email account.

Once you leave much of the fear will be released and you can start setting new goals and plans for yourself that don't include him!

It truly will be an amazing experience and you will feel a huge increase in self respect, self love and confidence once you take the big leap and set yourself free.

Though I'm in a homeless shelter and don't like everyone here, I have not regretted a single day here.

Another tip is don't engage in arguments, even if to defend yourself during the final days. Simply keep record of abusive behaviors, whether you send yourself emails or write it down somewhere secretly. Make sure you act cooperative and even friendly so you don't make him suspicious of anything.

I have a lot to say on issues like these because I just recently got out of one.

Overall I hope you get out of this safely as soon as you possibly can and hope to hear that you're in a new living arrangement in the very near future!

[Rebecca]

Hi Whisper,

You’re welcome :) It’s amazing how many people have the same stories isn’t it? One of the things I’ve seen during my research is that in many cases it feels like I am reading from a script of what’s happened to me. A whole new world opened up and I felt like I went from being totally alone and wondering if I was going insane, to being a part of a community where I felt validated and what I was experiencing was normal for this kind of abuse. A particularly sinister side of this type of situation is the gas-lighting and the questioning of your reality, especially when you’re already traumatised. Plus it goes in cycles of Mr Nice vs Mr Nasty and the nice side can last for weeks sometimes – I used to think, “I can’t believe I wanted to leave him, he’s my best friend, I can’t imagine my life without him”. That was abuse amnesia and cognitive dissonance because as soon as Mr Nasty reappeared I’d be right back to square one.

It’s really difficult isn’t it? They present such a convincing mask to the world and are generally good actors, charismatic and charming. Certainly his own family think he’s the best thing since sliced bread. I get the blame for everything, even if he has a particularly nasty outburst in front of one of them – somehow it’s still my fault. I suspect his mother is a narcissist too and I believe he is one not because he suffered abuse or neglect in his childhood, but because he was spoilt rotten. He was the “golden child” which is what I think has led to his excessive entitlement. I am constantly amazed at how nice he can be to complete strangers in contrast with how horrible he is to me. He has this knack of being able to play the long lost son/grandson to older people or the wise sage to younger people and they are utterly convinced. And yes it is all about getting attention! Any attention, he is determined to win people over with his boyish charm at any cost.

I’m really lucky with my family in that my sisters are very savvy and they cottoned on to him a while ago. I’m also lucky to have a good support network of non-judgemental, understanding friends – although it’s still really difficult to explain how a narcissist doesn’t play by the same rules as a “normal” person. They can’t understand how I can’t have a normal break up conversation with him without him flying into a rage and threatening all sorts of things. They don’t understand about narcissistic rage or injury (I didn’t until I started researching and wow that was a big light bulb moment – he is absolutely textbook). And it’s not like they’re going to read the thousands of articles I have read over the last 10 months to get a handle on this. We were talking last week about how to approach the split up and they were giving me lots of good advice that would absolutely work if you are dealing with a normal, reasonable person. They just don’t understand that it’s not like dealing with a normal person – they don’t play by the same rules. It’s like dealing with a spiteful 5 year old in an adult’s body.

I’m so sorry it’s been going on for so long for you Whisper – however, another thing I have learned is that it’s never too late to get your life back. There are so many women (and men) who have been stuck in lifelong relationships/marriages who have realised what is happening and turned their lives around. I can’t believe I only came across this information under a year ago! I can only assume that it came at the time I was ready to start dealing with it and it just slipped under my radar before.

Once you find out I feel there is no going back – however long it takes you to leave the relationship, you can’t “unlearn” or “unsee” what you now know. That light bulb that goes on – you can’t turn it off. What I have found is that not pressuring yourself on a time limit is good (unless you are in immediate physical danger). You really do have to get yourself psychologically strong enough and ready to deal with whatever they can throw at you and to resist “hoovering” tactics. It’s taken me almost a year and I’ve still not left him.

I just wanted to share one more thing with you – this lady has helped me immensely:

https://www.melanietoniaevans.com/
You can sign up to a free 16 day recovery course – it doesn’t matter whether you are still with the narcissist, you can still start your healing journey. She believes that it is the unhealed trauma within ourselves that attracted the narcissist to us at a deeper level.

I do feel that this has happened to me to allow me to heal my childhood trauma and other traumas from my life. It has led me to much self reflection and has helped me to see the themes and patterns of my life more clearly as it has brought them crashing violently to the surface. It is helping me to learn how to deal with pain that I have repressed for most of my life. It is helping me address my feelings of unworthiness and never being good enough. I hope that one day I will be able to forgive myself for allowing him to treat me the way he has.

Another thing I’ve been doing is just trying to make little decisions each day that keep me moving in the right direction. It could be something as small as one phone call or asking someone a question or checking out prices on local self storage units.

It’s really lovely to be able to talk with someone who understands – stay strong and know that you can do this! Go easy on yourself and remember you don’t have to make massive decisions which can be totally overwhelming.

Thanks for your reply to my post :flower:
Much love, IS :bearhug:

I was fooled by how long the nice side would last too. But other times the nasty side would come out every other day or even days in a row.

I know exactly what you mean when you say a light 💡 bulb goes on and doesn't go back off. You get to the point that you are so firm and unwavering in your decision to leave that nothing the narcissist says or does can turn you around.

My ex husband that I left about a week and a day ago sent me an email with the subject "renew weddings vows. " I feel completely repulsed on all levels at the idea of that whereas a year ago that would have appealed to me. It's amazing what knowledge can do.

[Rebecca]

https://www.thehotline.org/

The above link is an excellent resource. The site has a live chat option so you can talk to an advocate without speaking over the phone. The advocates are very supportive, I've spoken to at least three of them.

You can talk to then about the abuse for emotional support, ask about shelters in your area, and they can also help you develop a safety plan for leaving.

The more people you can trust and talk to about the situation, the more real it will feel and the more support you will have.

I was planning on waiting until an argument erupted to leave my husband before I spoke to one of the advocates!!! That would have been so stressful! Instead, someone advised that I leave in a calm state and when my ex wouldn't expect it, and I am so grateful I took their advice.

You can try the live chat any time, any day, which makes it really convenient. I hope this is a useful rescouce for you.

[onawah]

Your posts are pure gold, Rebecca! And you deserve a gold medal for courage. :thumbsup:

[Rebecca]

Your posts are pure gold, Rebecca! And you deserve a gold medal for courage. :thumbsup:

Thank you onawah, the least I can do now is share my story and try to help people in similar situations :)

[onawah]

Exactly!!!


Your posts are pure gold, Rebecca! And you deserve a gold medal for courage. :thumbsup:

Thank you onawah, the least I can do now is share my story and try to help people in similar situations :)

[Seabreeze]

Hi Rebecca,

thank you so much for your postings and the link. I apprechiate you did this and it sure helps me a lot. It gives me some good ideas.

Sorry I did not find time to answer earlier. To much is going on around me at the time and I am a bit ill. Have a fever, coughing attacs....I guess I have a flu.

And yes, my light bulbs are on....and wont ever turn off anymore. This is for sure. I know what I have to leave behind asap.

I am having some troubles lately on this page. I am not sure it is my PC or maybe this internet page? Some times the picture just starts to run and doesn`t stop, which makes it hard to read or write something at all. Does anybody else around here, has the same problem?

[Seabreeze]

..post traumatic stress syndrome....I read about..in connection with narcisstic abuses..... The PTS starts up with fears and panic attacs and can hold on up to 1 month - I read. Sometimes it gets along with amnesia also.

It is caused by to much stress or emotional overloads or by shock situations, things or situations which are to much for the mind at the moment. The PTS is a warning symptom of the mind.....and a call for protection.......

[Seabreeze]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdSjFVWV-yE

[Seabreeze]

Thanks Joe for the advice - yes, you are totally right about it.......it is an open forum.....I sometimes forget...:blushing:

*************************************************************



Listening to this PTS video made me think about those people with narcisstic or psychophatic disorders. I had both around me in my life already. And I had times I was thinking of revenge...mainly when they did upset or hurt me. I am above this today.

By now I just feel sorry for them. They are mostlikly very intelligent people often with special talents aso. But they use their talents and knowledge in a total wrong way, which is damaging. It is sad. And they dont really recognize what kind of damage they do towards others, because they only think of themselves. They don't sense it when they hurt someone.

And I think it is very sad, it you never can expierience to really love someone from the heart, but yourself.

[Rebecca]

Hi Rebecca,

thank you so much for your postings and the link. I apprechiate you did this and it sure helps me a lot. It gives me some good ideas on how to leave quickly from here also.

Sorry I did not find time to answer earlier. To much is going on around me at the time and I am a bit ill. Have a fever, coughing attacs....I guess I have a flu.

And yes, my light bulbs are on....and wont ever turn off anymore. This is for sure. I know what I have to leave behind asap. My story is going since 1981 with this man. And I think I did waste enough of my life time into him, who does not apprechiate a thing I did or do for him. I even did bring up our daughter all by myself - she is 35 years old now. Enough is enough.

I am having some troubles lately on this page. I am not sure it is my PC or maybe this internet page? Some times the picture just starts to run and doesn`t stop, which makes it hard to read or write something at all. Does anybody else around here, has the same problem?

Hi Whisper, I understand.

Perhaps something is wrong with your computer. I haven't had that problem lately.

Joe makes a good point about keeping your plans undetectable.

Do you always sign out and lock your computer when you're done? Do you have hard to guess passwords?

Fortunately for me my ex husband was too preoccupied with work and his "second wife " to spy on me... Does your soon to be ex husband tend to spy on you?

[Seabreeze]

...deleted post.....

[Rebecca]

Hi Rebecca7411,

I think something is wrong with my pc. All of a sudden totaly different settings and then the picture starts running without any reason? Or maybe my husband was on it? He does not have good pc skills and hardly knows how to run a pc. He does not really use the pc. So I feel save about it. But you never know...right? We only have one password, we both know. Maybe I should make up a new one. Yes, good idea. Better save - than sorry.

Well my man does not really spy on me as far as I know. But he likes to make phone calls to control where I am and what I do. This is not possible at the time, because he lost his phone. As long he is still in his mania episode he is mainly concentrated into things he likes to do and does not care much about me. He is overactiv running here and there, talking up to all kind people, makeing new friends, party a lot and he is very, very talk active. I am at home most of the time.

He is gone most of the day, which makes it easy for me to make my decisions and to get prepared for the day I have planned to leave. But it seems like this mania episode is slowly coming to an end. And he could be back to be balanced out again soon.

Then he turns back into the person which is mainly around me, day and night. I have to watch out then......

If you don't change the password, you should clear your browsing history and sign out of project Avalon at the very least.

My ex would sometimes seem to be balanced for a week or even a couple of weeks, only to go back into having manic episodes. Definitely watch out at all times.

I'm glad he's gone most of the time and you get to plan. The more you prepare the more confident you will feel when you walk out the door! :) ☀

[Seabreeze]

Yes, thanks Rebecca7411 for the advice,

I have a automatic setting which deletes all cookies and the browser history as soon I close the browser. And I always log out, when I am done on the forum also.

But Joe is right, I should not forget this is an open forum and everybody can read in here, even without logging in.

I have to keep this in my mind.

[Flash]

For those divorcing from narcissists and psychopaths


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MOe9BuNi_Q


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8uwUu2XDTU

[TrumanCash]

Here is an excellent article on narcissistic sociopathy by Brandon Smith:

How To Identify A Globalist Criminal

http://www.alt-market.com/articles/3693-how-to-identify-a-globalist-criminal

[Flash]

Here is an excellent article on narcissistic sociopathy by Brandon Smith:

How To Identify A Globalist Criminal

http://www.alt-market.com/articles/3693-how-to-identify-a-globalist-criminal

very good article

here part of it


Psychological Similarities Of Globalists

Probably the most overwhelming epiphany I have come to in my 12 years of analysis into globalism and the nature of evil is that globalists are in fact tied together by a root mental illness or psychological aberration. This occurred during my research on narcissistic sociopathy, or what some circles might call “psychopathy”. Criminology indicates that not all criminals are full blown narcissistic sociopaths, but most full blown narcissistic sociopaths are criminals. Some are simply more successful criminals than others, and this usually depends on their ability to blend in and mimic or manipulate normal people.

Full blown narcissistic sociopaths (or psychopaths) make up around 1% of any given population, but are responsible for the vast majority of violent crimes or criminal enterprises. The lion's share of justice system resources are used in dealing with these people, as they are four to eight times more likely than the average person to use violence in daily interactions or as a tool to gain advantage, and twenty-five times more likely to end up in prison.

There is a long list of character traits that make a narcissistic sociopath, but the defining features are a complete lack of conscience and empathy, a propensity for moral relativism (the ability to rationalize any and all destructive behavior), a desperate need to be adored or admired by everyone around them, a feeling of being “more special” than most people, a feeling of superiority, delusions of grandeur or an inherent right to manage the lives of others, an obsessive need to control and manipulate, impulsive desires and deviant sexual inclinations, and elitist associations (they will only associate with people they feel are like them and are “equally superior”).

A defining fact of narcissistic sociopathy is that these traits are inborn, not a product of environment. In some cases environment can play a role in activating these traits, but if a person is not born with them, they generally do not adopt them later in life because of a traumatic environment. The following documentaries linked here and here are an excellent overview of high level narcissistic sociopaths.

Narcissistic sociopaths defy all forms of treatment and cannot be reformed. They have no concrete personality beyond these traits, therefore, if you remove the traits, they are left with nothing else. They are almost anti-human; while most people are born with unique personality combinations, narcissistic sociopaths have none, so they mimic the personalities of those around them, mirroring behaviors and collecting or stealing quirks.

Their primary drives are to fulfill their fantasies of superiority and godhood, as well as an endless quest to satiate their dopamine addiction. The more deviant the action, and the more successful they are at getting away with it, the more dopamine they generate and the more satisfied they feel. This leads to an endless cycle, seeking out more and more exploitation of others which becomes less and less satisfying, which leads to even greater deviance.

I came to realize in my studies that these characteristics described almost exactly the observable behaviors of globalists. The difference being that globalists were so high functioning that they had actually built a society of narcissistic sociopaths that operated like a kind of cult, or a corporate entity. The only other historic example I could compare it to would be the mob, or other gangs which have blended into the surrounding normal society and operated in their midst.

I do not know if a society of narcissistic sociopaths with its own tribal customs, mythologies and beliefs has ever been recorded before. While psychopathic people have been known in the past to organize into groups for mutual benefit, the globalists are something different. They are an anomaly; a well maintained culture of parasites that has blended almost seamlessly within normal society in order to feed off of non-psychopathic and empathetic people. The best fictional representation I can think of is the vampire. They are so similar I sometimes wonder if folklore creatures like vampires were based on narcissistic sociopaths as a way to warn people of their presence.

Globalists are indeed a culture, a secretive and occult phenomenon that wants so badly to be recognized and worshiped, but fears public scrutiny. Their motivation at bottom is to condition or tear down normal, moral and free society until it becomes a place in which they can openly be what they really are without fear of judgment or consequences. They want to terraform civilization and make it a habitat that will accept them; a habitat for monsters surrounded by willing victims.

by Brandon Smith

[onawah]

Can You Love the Narcissist and Rescue Him?
Sam Vaknin
Published on Jan 12, 2011

"I believe in the possibility of loving narcissists if one accepts them unconditionally, in a disillusioned and expectation-free manner.

Narcissists are narcissists. Take them or leave them. Some of them are lovable. Most of them are highly charming and intelligent. The source of the misery of the victims of the narcissist is their disappointment, their disillusionment, their abrupt and tearing and tearful realisation that they fell in love with an ideal of their own making, a phantasm, an illusion, a fata morgana. This "waking up" is traumatic. The narcissist always remains the same. It is the victim who changes."

MCwCJ6ypY0A

(At 1:09 into the talk, Vaknin says that most narcissists are highly charming and intelligent. But there is no explanation as to why that is and it's very puzzling because narcissists are created by adverse situations, traumas, etc. Does anyone have an explanation as to why that might be? Thanks.
Most troubling is the premise that narcissistic victims often become narcissists themselves, which makes sense, because being in a relationship with a narcissist is certainly traumatizing.)

[onawah]

Victim of Narcissist: Move On!
Sam Vaknin
Published on Aug 4, 2011

"To preserve one's mental health -- one must abandon the narcissist. One must move on.

Moving on is a process, not a decision or an event. First, one has to acknowledge and accept painful reality. Such acceptance is a volcanic, shattering, agonising series of nibbling thoughts and strong resistances. Once the battle is won, and harsh and agonizing realities are assimilated, one can move on to the learning phase.

Learning

We label. We educate ourselves. We compare experiences. We digest. We have insights.

Then we decide and we act. This is "to move on". Having gathered sufficient emotional sustenance, knowledge, support and confidence, we face the battlefields of our relationships, fortified and nurtured. This stage characterises those who do not mourn -- but fight; do not grieve -- but replenish their self-esteem; do not hide -- but seek; do not freeze -- but move on.

Grieving

Having been betrayed and abused -- we grieve. We grieve for the image we had of the traitor and abuser -- the image that was so fleeting and so wrong. We mourn the damage he did to us. We experience the fear of never being able to love or to trust again -- and we grieve this loss. In one stroke, we lost someone we trusted and even loved, we lost our trusting and loving selves and we lost the trust and love that we felt. Can anything be worse?

The emotional process of grieving has many phases.

At first, we are dumbfounded, shocked, inert, immobile. We play dead to avoid our inner monsters. We are ossified in our pain, cast in the mould of our reticence and fears. Then we feel enraged, indignant, rebellious and hateful. Then we accept. Then we cry. And then -- some of us -- learn to forgive and to pity. And this is called healing.

All stages are absolutely necessary and good for you. It is bad not to rage back, not to shame those who shamed us, to deny, to pretend, to evade. But it is equally bad to get fixated on our rage. Permanent grieving is the perpetuation of our abuse by other means.

By endlessly recreating our harrowing experiences, we unwillingly collaborate with our abuser to perpetuate his or her evil deeds. It is by moving on that we defeat our abuser, minimising him and his importance in our lives. It is by loving and by trusting anew that we annul that which was done to us. To forgive is never to forget. But to remember is not necessarily to re-experience."

qaVn5IPlUvo

[onawah]

Unmasking Narcissists, Psychopaths, and Their Abuse with RUTH JACOBS in CAMBRIDGE, UK (In the Booth)
Sam Vaknin
Published on Feb 14, 2014

"Sam Vaknin, author of Malignant Self Love: Narcissism Revisited (http://www.narcissistic-abuse.com), shares his knowledge and personal experience of Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
In the Booth with Ruth - Sam Vaknin, author of Malignant Self Love: Narcissism Revisited" Filmed by Paul Henley (www.scarylion.co.uk) & Produced by Matthew Lynch (www.jlfilmandmedia.com)"
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(Fascinating interview with Sam Vaknin where he discusses how he came to terms with his own narcissism, and how he became the authority on the subject.
No doubt the fact that his IQ is off the charts helped, and another reason why the story just gets more and more interesting. )

[Flash]

I truly like Vaknin, as an intelligent narcissist informant. But,he is and remains a narcissist.

I think he observed much of the results on victims, he can talk of his observations, but they are cold observations. He cannot understand the real impact which has to do with love, love betrayal, love not returned, chance to live in love lost. This, he cannot understand.

He cannot understand either the impact of the incredible amount of exploitation narcissist impose on their victims and the psychic transformation (which is not narcissim by the way as told in one of your previous post Onawah, but rather diminished trust in life altogether and quite reduce trust in human beings.)

So, when he talks about the narcissists, he has all my ears opened.

when he talk about the victims of narcissists, I take it with a grain of salt, thinking that he does not truly know what he is talking about.

--------------

As a personal note, he was the only one I found in year 2001, talking about narcissism, and pervert narcissists on the web. I was then trying to understand my husband, which kind of sick mind I had to deal with, and could not find much. But Vaknin thanks to him, I learned and understood what to do during the divorce, which was extremely long and painful in every senses.

[happyuk]

In the UK at least, some small positive steps in the right direction appear to be being made.

I never knew this until recently, but in 2015 a new UK law banning controlling behaviour came into effect with the aim of helping to protect those in unhealthy relationships:

https://www.thinkuknow.co.uk/14_plus/news/Emotional-Abuse-to-be-made-illegal-under-new-domestic-violence-law-/

https://www.disrespectnobody.co.uk/

[onawah]

Two Narcissists in a Couple
Sam Vaknin
8/31/10

I met a narcissistic couple recently, and had such a hard time figuring out the dynamic. This explanation from Sam Vaknin helped a lot.
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And then there's the narcissist and the codependent--another good description from Vaknin
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Do Narcissists Truly Hate?
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[Seabreeze]

I have a difficult time to understand Vaknin. He has a heavy accent......

By now I am glad I can tell better, which behavements are narcisstic at people I dont know yet. I never would have recognized it before before I did inform myself good about it.

Me recognizing this now...I can avoid to have to much contact to narcisstic people. It is good I can tell...and I can protect myself better from those kind people.....

[Seabreeze]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxVP8cBPL0M

[petra]

Flash posted this from an article, in post #154 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?97293-20-Basic-Tactics-Used-By-Narcissists-Sociopaths-And-Psychopaths-To-manipulate-And-Silence-A-Prey&p=1282486&viewfull=1#post1282486)



Narcissistic sociopaths defy all forms of treatment and cannot be reformed. They have no concrete personality beyond these traits, therefore, if you remove the traits, they are left with nothing else. They are almost anti-human; while most people are born with unique personality combinations, narcissistic sociopaths have none, so they mimic the personalities of those around them, mirroring behaviors and collecting or stealing quirks.

This "cannot be reformed" really makes me wonder. For one thing, there's a HUGE debate over if these people are "born this way" or not, because if they are, what's the point of saying "reformed" when they were already like that. HMM.

[Flash]

Flash posted this from an article, in post #154 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?97293-20-Basic-Tactics-Used-By-Narcissists-Sociopaths-And-Psychopaths-To-manipulate-And-Silence-A-Prey&p=1282486&viewfull=1#post1282486)



Narcissistic sociopaths defy all forms of treatment and cannot be reformed. They have no concrete personality beyond these traits, therefore, if you remove the traits, they are left with nothing else. They are almost anti-human; while most people are born with unique personality combinations, narcissistic sociopaths have none, so they mimic the personalities of those around them, mirroring behaviors and collecting or stealing quirks.

This "cannot be reformed" really makes me wonder. For one thing, there's a HUGE debate over if these people are "born this way" or not, because if they are, what's the point of saying "reformed" when they were already like that. HMM.

Petra, I am French speaking. Sometimes I may not use the exact right word that I would like to carry the meaning I have. Please, do not hook on wording when reading my posts, but on the general thinking.

It takes a lot from me to write specifically what I want. Often i do not find the right word corresponding to my French wording or thinking and I will find another way to express my thinking in English that is much less precise. Try the same in French, you will see how hard it is.

Reformed, may have meant they cannot be changed.

From whisper: I have a difficult time to understand Vaknin. He has a heavy accent.....

yeah, but you see, Ii understand Vaknin, I am now used to hear all kinds of accents in English, It is a question of habit. Yet, I understand that sometimes he is not as precise as he would be in Hebrew I imagine. I would not be either. And lots of time people have to pay more attention when I speak because of my accent as well.

[justntime2learn]

I believe the general consensus is that a sociopath is made and a psychopath is born that way. No cure and therapy makes them better manipulators.

The following video explains the difference between NPD, sociopathy and psychopathy.

6dv8zJiggBs

[Pam]

In the UK at least, some small positive steps in the right direction appear to be being made.

I never knew this until recently, but in 2015 a new UK law banning controlling behaviour came into effect with the aim of helping to protect those in unhealthy relationships:

https://www.thinkuknow.co.uk/14_plus/news/Emotional-Abuse-to-be-made-illegal-under-new-domestic-violence-law-/

https://www.disrespectnobody.co.uk/

Does anyone actually believe that a government can legislate controlling behavior? What a huge overstep by the government. Do you really want a government deciding how you should behave in your private life if you are not committing a crime? Wouldn't their resources be better spent in education and awareness of personality disorders and how to effectively deal with them and also provide assistance in getting out of unhealthy relationships. Wouldn't it be better to empower those that are being controlled with understanding of why they get into these relationships?

[petra]

Flash posted this from an article, in post #154 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?97293-20-Basic-Tactics-Used-By-Narcissists-Sociopaths-And-Psychopaths-To-manipulate-And-Silence-A-Prey&p=1282486&viewfull=1#post1282486)



Narcissistic sociopaths defy all forms of treatment and cannot be reformed. They have no concrete personality beyond these traits, therefore, if you remove the traits, they are left with nothing else. They are almost anti-human; while most people are born with unique personality combinations, narcissistic sociopaths have none, so they mimic the personalities of those around them, mirroring behaviors and collecting or stealing quirks.

This "cannot be reformed" really makes me wonder. For one thing, there's a HUGE debate over if these people are "born this way" or not, because if they are, what's the point of saying "reformed" when they were already like that. HMM.

Petra, I am French speaking. Sometimes I may not use the exact right word that I would like to carry the meaning I have. Please, do not hook on wording when reading my posts, but on the general thinking.

It takes a lot from me to write specifically what I want. Often i do not find the right word corresponding to my French wording or thinking and I will find another way to express my thinking in English that is much less precise. Try the same in French, you will see how hard it is.


I only used you for a reference Flash, since you posted the article. I DO get your meaning though, and I realize I'm reading into the wording - that was my point!

I agree with the quote, I don't think they can be reformed either.

Is there even such thing as a "correct way to think"? It's hard to answer with Yes without sounding fascist (ha ha), but I think there is - and delighting in other people's suffering just is not a part of it.

Maybe it's more like a disease than I realize - but if it is, I'd guess it'd have to be a "disease of the feelings".

[Seabreeze]

The psychopath...can not be healed, I believe......They found out in a study..there is a part of their brain where something is shrinked or damaged.... I had a psychophat in my family...which I found out about 3 years ago...she passed away last year.... But at least for the last 3 years I knew what I am dealing with....and to finally know what is the case...did explain a lot to me......which I could not understand before.

The Narcissist...is a different thing and I believe some of them can change..... Dont forget about those who start to become narcisstic themselves, by being around a Narcissist for to long......

which maybe did grow up with a narcisstic parent for example....this was a learning or protecting process..which went the wrong way.....

I believe they could change....but first of all ...they need to realize the facts and they need to really want to change and to get rid of their narcisstic ways.....

Well, I hope it is possible for some of them to find the right way. They are often very amazing people......

I dont know if I am right or wrong, thinking this way......

In fact...I am pretty confused at the time.....:facepalm:

[Seabreeze]

I was wondering...could it be some medications build up with time a even more narcisstic behavement? I did recognize..by now...I can not even have a normal conversation anymore with my partner on the phone. This use to be diffrent before. We are only talking on the phone for 2 month by now (yes I know...everybody says best is no contact at all)........

Or does it have to do with me recognizing more, knowing the signes? I just was wondering about this, if it could be certain medications can cause narcisstics attitudes? What do you think?

[AutumnW]

In the UK at least, some small positive steps in the right direction appear to be being made.

I never knew this until recently, but in 2015 a new UK law banning controlling behaviour came into effect with the aim of helping to protect those in unhealthy relationships:

https://www.thinkuknow.co.uk/14_plus/news/Emotional-Abuse-to-be-made-illegal-under-new-domestic-violence-law-/

https://www.disrespectnobody.co.uk/

Does anyone actually believe that a government can legislate controlling behavior? What a huge overstep by the government. Do you really want a government deciding how you should behave in your private life if you are not committing a crime? Wouldn't their resources be better spent in education and awareness of personality disorders and how to effectively deal with them and also provide assistance in getting out of unhealthy relationships. Wouldn't it be better to empower those that are being controlled with understanding of why they get into these relationships?

It depends on the type of control. I helped a young woman and her 2 daughters escape from an abusive pig who made it impossible for her to get a job in the small town where she resided. He slandered her to the point nobody would hire her.

He threatened he'd tell police she was beating her children if she tried to leave. He phoned her every five minutes if she left the house. He began a reign of terror where he would wake her up in the middle of the night and berate her for hours on end. It was usually because a man smiled at her (in a friendly not leering fashion) during the day and she smiled back.

She was chronically sleep deprived. It was terrible what he did to her. Total trauma. I pushed her to call the cops before she even began packing to leave, in the event he did go berserk, or more berserk.

She called the cops and they stayed with her while she packed. They took her seriously, believed that he had been threatening her and booted him right out of town. Perfect. Turns out he had a police record of doing exact same thing to many other women.

Mental torture is real and as bad as physical torture. Harder to prove, for sure. I hear you on that one. But should it be prosecuted? In some cases....yes

[AutumnW]

I was wondering...could it be some medications build up with time a even more narcisstic behavement? I did recognize..by now...I can not even have a normal conversation anymore with my partner on the phone. This use to be diffrent before. We are only talking on the phone for 2 month by now (yes I know...everybody says best is no contact at all)........

Or does it have to do with me recognizing more, knowing the signes? I just was wondering about this, if it could be certain medications can cause narcisstics attitudes? What do you think?

There is a theory that one of the reasons for the near financial total meltdown of the US in 2008, was due partly to the mass consumption of prozac in the financial industry. I figure those at the apex of that pyramid were psychopaths, their immediate underlings, aggressive narcissists, those beneath them likely depressed about what was going on....and on drugs. Possibly too, those who were in the regulatory bodies tasked with oversight were not only underfunded but taking SSRIs too (prozac etc...)

SSRI's can impede empathy in some people and make them a little more fearless. So yes, there is a subset of humanity that very may well have some form of acquired narcissism from their prescribed medication.

[Seabreeze]

..-----------:silent:........

[Seabreeze]

looks like this thread did fall into sleep..... I find it important for others to know what a narcissist or a psychophat is...what damage is done by those and how to protect yourself from them.... Best is...stay away from them if possible.....

update on me...got weak....what a waist of time.:Cry:..I had to leave again. Now I am sitting in a country I never been before and dont really know how to go on.
My head is a mess...not to talk about my feelings...and I am afraid I might havé
a PTSD.....

It proably will take a while until I am back in balance again. :facepalm:

[Seabreeze]

http://www.womenwithptsdunited.org/narcissism_gaslighting.html

[Sue (Ayt)]

SSRI's can impede empathy in some people and make them a little more fearless. So yes, there is a subset of humanity that very may well have some form of acquired narcissism from their prescribed medication.

Many known studies have reported that Tylenol (acetaminophen) also can reduce empathy.


Together, these findings suggest that the physical painkiller acetaminophen reduces empathy for pain and provide a new perspective on the neurochemical bases of empathy. Because empathy regulates prosocial and antisocial behavior, these drug-induced reductions in empathy raise concerns about the broader social side effects of acetaminophen, which is taken by almost a quarter of adults in the United States each week.
From painkiller to empathy killer: acetaminophen (paracetamol) reduces empathy for pain (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5015806/)

[RunningDeer]

What is the Gray Rock Method?



The grey rock method is a technique that removes the fascination and entertainment from a narcissist's life. The grey rock method is a practice where an individual becomes emotionally non-responsive, boring, and virtually acts like a rock.

Acting like a rock and being emotionally non-responsive will bore a narcissist and cause them to quickly lose attention. Instead of going without attention and admiration, a narcissist will be forced to find it elsewhere.


https://www.e-counseling.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/grey-rock.jpg

by Tracy Smith LPC, NCC, ACS
April 26, 2019




A narcissist is a person who shows a disproportionate interest in themselves. They have a strong desire to be admired by others, strive for attention, and have difficulty enduring criticism or setbacks. Narcissists tend to be grandiose, suspicious, and cynical. They are commonly conceited, scheming, and controlling of others. Being related to, working for, or being in a relationship with a narcissist is an extremely challenging predicament. Terminating contact, distancing, and getting out of a relationship with a narcissist is always ideal, but is not always a practical option. When contact with a narcissist cannot be terminated, the grey rock method can be a valid alternative to manage relations.

A narcissist needs to surround themselves with individuals who fascinate them and who keep them entertained at all times. A narcissist needs to have complete control over others and will use manipulative tendencies to get what they want. They require those in their lives to shower them with attention, reverence, and admiration. The grey rock method is a technique that removes the fascination and entertainment from a narcissist’s life.

The grey rock method is a practice where an individual becomes emotionally non-responsive, boring, and virtually acts like a rock. Emotional detachment serves to undermine a narcissist’s attempts to lure and manipulate, causing them to grow uninterested and bored. The grey rock method takes away what the narcissist needs and desires most–attention.

In order to implement the grey rock method, a person needs to minimize conversations and verbal exchanges as much as they can. While interactions should always be avoided when possible, it is important to refrain from ignoring a narcissist. Instead, an individual should reply with minimal and short responses to limit further conversation. Conversations should center on monotonous or boring topics and a person should attempt to provide one word answers without elaboration or opinion. If a narcissist attempts to bait, a person can utilize nonverbal responses such as nodding and smiling to avoid further engagement.

It is important that a person using the grey rock method never provide any details regarding their personal life to cut off the potential of a narcissist using any of the information to manipulate or lure. It is critical that an individual refrain from letting a narcissist know that they are doing well without them, as the narcissist will become furious and see this as a challenge. A person must refrain from asking a narcissist questions, as it will give a narcissist ample opportunity to highlight their accomplishments while being demeaning and disparaging in the process.

A person should only respond with facts whenever possible, as facts are difficult to challenge or argue. An individual using the grey rock method should stay away from discussing the past, as old arguments can be resurrected and blame can be reassigned. If this occurs, accepting blame and responsibility can be a tactic to further diffuse conversation, even if this is not the way that one truly feels.

Although effective, the grey rock method can be frustrating to implement, especially when one has to suppress their true thoughts and opinions. However, acting like a rock and being emotionally non-responsive will bore a narcissist and cause them to quickly lose attention. Instead of going without attention and admiration, a narcissist will be forced to find it elsewhere.

It is important to note that the goal of the grey rock method is to cause a narcissist to lose interest when having no contact is not a feasible option. In addition, the grey rock method can be utilized with individuals who possess other personality disorders, such as those with antisocial personality disorder or borderline personality disorder, or with others who are abusive or have sinister intentions.

[article (https://www.e-counseling.com/mental-health/what-is-the-grey-rock-method/)]


https://i.imgur.com/F5VZkI8.gif

How to Stop Gaslighting in Relationships (Plus the Original Gray Rock Story) (13 minutes)

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Angie Atkinson (https://www.youtube.com/user/AuthorAngelaAtkinson/videos)



How to Stop Gaslighting in Relationships (Plus the Original Gray Rock Story) and Tips for Using the Gray Rock Method (Safely)

Communicating with a narcissist can be incredibly frustrating, especially when it matters that they comprehend what you’re saying. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve felt exasperated when trying to have simple conversations with narcissists who are actively gaslighting.

In this video, I'm going to explain to you the three stages of gaslighting, plus exactly why we fall for it. Plus: I'll share the original story of how the gray rock method was invented and named by a woman named Skylar. (from 180rule.com (https://180rule.com/))

[Seabreeze]

Acting like a rock and being emotionally non-responsive will bore a narcissist and cause them to quickly lose attention. Instead of going without attention and admiration, a narcissist will be forced to find it elsewhere......



Yes, I found this out myself...it is correctly. But a husband who looks for attention and admiration somewhere else........is hard for the wife to experience...:( This is only good if you really want to end the relationship instantly...and better don't hung out to watch....my advice....

........

[RunningDeer]

Another thing I found out in my case, my husband is practicing bad spells, curses and black magic against people he believes did bad to him.... He use to tell me..people who did me wrong they later on get really harmed, have accidents or something else.

And in one of our last talks, I did ask him.: What are you doing? Are you praying for something bad to happen or what? He said..Yes....


He use to tell me..people who did me wrong they later on get really harmed, have accidents or something else.

He told you because he knew you’d believe him. It’s a desperate attempt to control and get juiced off your fear.


Narcissist do not see a reason why people do this and that. For example he does not understand why I left him, because he thinks everything he did and does is allright..but actually it is/was totaly not alright because it was more than painful for me...which he does not recognize, because there is no empathie on his side.

Note - this is me talking to me:

If he doesn’t understand why I left him, that means I’m still in contact with him. That means I’m contributing to the cycle of abuse. I do not have to care how he SAYS he feels.

It no longer matters if he recognizes how painful it was for me. The most important thing is I get on with my life and make sure it includes lots of self-love.


So he might did practice some bad spell or curse on me. I have to inform myself on how to protect and clean myself from this now.

A dialogue with myself:




RunningDeer: “I can’t get on with my life until I study up on how to deflect spells and curses.
Higher Self - Big Self: “It’s just a way to prolong a critical decision and sink further into the quicksand. Breathe. Journey on Warrior Woman.”



https://i.imgur.com/F5VZkI8.gif


He’s a low frequency man-bot. Alls he can hope to create is enough fear in you so you carry on his puny spells. He wants what you’ve got, Whisper. A warrior spirit. Give yourself permission to create new chapters.

Godspeed. ♡


https://i.imgur.com/NGlAtDk.jpg

[Seabreeze]

sorry ...deleted.....


I look at it and then I try to let it go where it belongs...in the past.

I am on a one way road....forwards. Did run around in a constant circle long enough.

[Seabreeze]

Toxic Silence: Why Narcissists Go Silent and How to Cope

by Angela Atkinson

https://queenbeeing.com/toxic-silence-narcissists-go-silent-cope/

[RunningDeer]

I am on a one way road....forwards. Did run around in a constant circle long enough.

Good for you, Whisper. Happy to know things worked out and you're onto creating new chapters.
http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/smilies/hug-hi-five.gif
https://i.imgur.com/Tap9wXM.gif

♡

[Seabreeze]

Here is something, which might be helpful for others also...

Breaking word curses that come from spouse and family members...


a powerful prayer....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYx5xXpBdlg

[RunningDeer]

No Contact Rules After Breakup - Narcissistic Relationship Recovery
(Who Made This Up?) (13:41 minutes)





“…the worst part is because of the addiction factor and all this other stuff. We find ourselves afraid to walk away or unwilling to walk away from these abusers.

Why does that happen? Love, in general, affects the same part of the brain as any other kind of drug. and when we’re talking about a toxic relationship, we almost become stuck directly to that partner by our own brains. This is where our brain betrays us in keeping us safe and healthy.

So this is something we need to remember when we're going through no contact. It’s sort of like detox for us in a way. And in fact, some people if they do go no contact they will almost feel physical withdrawals much like an addict of drugs or alcohol would feel.”

What is the no contact rule exactly?

When we're talking about narcissus the no contact rule means you don't see that person. You don't speak to that person. You don’t visit that person. You don't send gifts. You don't call them. Basically what that comes down to is that when you go into contact with a narcissist. You end all contact with that person.

#1 You stop taking the narcissists phone calls.
#2 You block them on social media networks.
#3 You do not encourage or schedule visits with them.
#4 You stop seeing, speaking to and otherwise interacting with the narcissist.

Now if you have children together this might be slightly different … (continued)

Angie Atkinson YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/user/AuthorAngelaAtkinson/videos)


Htdyhm2j_Jg

[Ernie Nemeth]

The narcissist is a person who looks out for themselves and considers everything from their personal perspective only. Most of the population have narcissistic tendencies. They can empathize with others just fine but their focus is the self.

A sociopath is a narcissist on steroids, fully and only focused on themselves to the exclusion of others. A sociopath has limited ability to empathize with the plight of another. This is the gateway to pathology.

A psychopath cannot empathize. This is full on pathology.


By commandeering the word narcissist it makes the entire modern world pathological and in need of therapy. Which is fine with me because it needs therapy. But if the word is usurped and a fine line drawn, what is the pathology of the world to be called?

(in my estimation, there is no difference between a controlling person in love with themselves to the exclusion of others and the average person in society bent on 'making it in the world' at any cost)

Personally, I will not accept this definition of narcissism because I don't want to let the world of the hook. We are all narcissists to one degree or another. It is normal in this society. Let's call these misfits who destroy the lives of their loved ones what they are - sociopaths, and let's not mince words about it - they are sick and in dire need of help!

[Sue (Ayt)]

The narcissist is a person who looks out for themselves and considers everything from their personal perspective only. Most of the population have narcissistic tendencies. They can empathize with others just fine but their focus is the self.

A sociopath is a narcissist on steroids, fully and only focused on themselves to the exclusion of others. A sociopath has limited ability to empathize with the plight of another. This is the gateway to pathology.

A psychopath cannot empathize. This is full on pathology.


By commandeering the word narcissist it makes the entire modern world pathological and in need of therapy. Which is fine with me because it needs therapy. But if the word is usurped and a fine line drawn, what is the pathology of the world to be called?

(in my estimation, there is no difference between a controlling person in love with themselves to the exclusion of others and the average person in society bent on 'making it in the world' at any cost)

Personally, I will not accept this definition of narcissism because I don't want to let the world of the hook. We are all narcissists to one degree or another. It is normal in this society. Let's call these misfits who destroy the lives of their loved ones what they are - sociopaths, and let's not mince words about it - they are sick and in dire need of help!

Amazing, Ernie. I think you have put your finger on the unease that stirs in me when I see how randomly the narcissist label is being tossed about these days. It may actually directly coincide with the level of consciousness expansion an individual has reached. A narrow range of vision can earn the label of this "illness" on most of us, I guess.

(another label that is also tossed about too much these days, I suspect, is that of passive-agressive.)

[RunningDeer]

Defense Against the Psychopath

This is a repost of an empowering 37 minute video divided into 4 sections. An outline is provided below with time stamp. It provides knowledge and tools on how to prevent psychopaths from surreptitiously controlling your life.

The narrator explains that there are two choices in dealing with them: attack or evade. In attack, you need to be in a power position with support to back you. With evasion, avoid them if possible. It's best to remember that they can't be saved. In fact, empathy and pity would only enrage them.


MgGyvxqYSbE

Part One:

Key Characteristics @ 1:41 (https://youtu.be/MgGyvxqYSbE?t=1m41s)

Lack of Empathy
Lack of Remorse
Superficiality
Grandiosity
Irresponsibility
Impulsive Behavior
Compulsive Lying
Manipulative
Anti-Social Behavior


Part Two:

Common Types of Psychopaths @ 10:30 (https://youtu.be/MgGyvxqYSbE?t=10m30s)

Narcissists
The Victim
Con Artists
Malevolent Psychopaths
Professional Psychopaths
Secondary Psychopaths


Part Three:

Method of Operation @ 24:38 (https://youtu.be/MgGyvxqYSbE?t=24m38s)

The Interview
The Seduction
Divide and Conquer
Fear and Tyranny


Part 4:

Defense Against a Psychopath @ 30:06 (https://youtu.be/MgGyvxqYSbE?t=30m06s)

Facing Evil
Recognition
What Not To Do
Attack
Evade

[Seabreeze]

https://ladywithatruck.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/insp1.jpg

The 3 Phases of a Relationship With a Narcissist

https://ladywithatruck.com/the-3-phases-of-a-relationship-with-a-narcisist/


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3VL342M8K8

[onawah]

How we ALL enable TOXIC people
Nov 8, 2019

DoctorRamani
zM3zBYySLzA

Sometimes I have felt like Avalon's policies toward toxic people has been too lenient, though it does seem like unsubscribing toxic people and those who don't fit the guidelines has stepped up recently, for which I am grateful! :clapping:
It's all about maintaining good boundaries, which is absolutely necessary.
Some of us have to learn that the hard way (empaths especially!), but it doesn't have to be hard once we see the sense of it.

[Deux Corbeaux]

How we ALL enable TOXIC people
Nov 8, 2019

DoctorRamani
zM3zBYySLzA



I can only reply to this ‘Doctor Ramani’ with a haiku .....

Your eyes, Ramani
Are draining the energy
from those seeing them

[onawah]

I see a lot of light coming from her eyes.
Very unlike the flat, dull, expressionless eyes that I have seen in narcissists.
For empaths who tend to take on the toxic energy of narcissists and other toxic people and are thereby diminished, I think her messages are quite empowering.
And power is a good thing when it is used to establish and maintain healthy boundaries.



I can only reply to this ‘Doctor Ramani’ with a haiku .....

Your eyes, Ramani
Are draining the energy
from those seeing them

[onawah]

And here's another very informative, sensible and helpful talk from Dr. Ramani
How to fight fire with grace
10/14/19
1nJaA7Ict8g

[Deux Corbeaux]

I see a lot of light coming from her eyes.
Very unlike the flat, dull, expressionless eyes that I have seen in narcissists.
For empaths who tend to take on the toxic energy of narcissists and other toxic people and are thereby diminished, I think her messages are quite empowering.
And power is a good thing when it is used to establish and maintain healthy boundaries.



I can only reply to this ‘Doctor Ramani’ with a haiku .....

Your eyes, Ramani
Are draining the energy
from those seeing them

If Dr. Ramani works for you, it's Ok. Her messages are informative and helpful. Just as Sam Vaknin's messages are. Many roads lead to Rome.

One just has to feel comfortable with the energy of the person that is bringing the message. For me .... sometimes it's reading the stare of the eyes that makes me feel uncomfortable, the other time it's the tone of the voice ......

[onawah]

Dr. Gabor Mate Authenticity vs. Attachment
May 14, 2019

Phil Borges
CRAZYWISE Conversations: Gabor Maté – Authenticity vs. Attachment

Gabor Maté, M.D. takes a special interest in early childhood trauma and the potential lifelong impacts on physical and mental health. Here he discusses the conflict children and adults often face staying true to their authenticity while potentially jeopardizing their important relationships.

Dr. Maté’s approach to addiction focuses on the trauma his patients have suffered and attempts to address this in their recovery. His book In The Realm of Hungry Ghosts discusses the types of trauma experienced by those suffering from addiction and how this affects their decision-making later in life."
l3bynimi8HQ

R GABOR MATÉ - CHILDHOOD TRAUMA CREATES ADDICTION - Part 1/2 | London Real
Premiered Jan 6, 2019


FREE FULL EPISODES: https://londonreal.tv/episodes

"Dr Gabor Maté, the renowned speaker, physician and author.

He has written many, bestselling books including

In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts: Close Encounters With Addiction, which is based on his findings, from twelve years practicing medicine, in Vancouver’s most concentrated area of drug users.

He is also known for his expertise on childhood trauma, stress, and the mind-body connection. His work reframes how we view all human development."

Watch the FULL EPISODE here:
https://londonreal.tv/e/gabor-mate/

ojq-U13726E

(Not squarely on topic, but related to how to heal from abuse. sometimes the greatest insights and wisdom come from "wounded healers", which Dr. Mate admits to being.)

[Ernie Nemeth]

I am a narcissist-buster. And I use similar techniques that they use and so I am often confused for one. And sometimes I forget my own role and identify as one.

I have watched narcissists take down entire companies with their antics. I have lost jobs because of them. So many functions were ruined by them but not because of them - because of me! I would ruin the function to ruin their holding court over the attendees, basking in their importance.

I have warned those in power of the potential disruption by the newest narcissist only to loose my own position instead. And that I am later proved right only aggravated my own standing in the company, and did not improve it forcing me eventually to move on.

Narcissists have no talent and use bluster to conceal that fact. It is only smoke and mirrors they concoct to look good but it is the capitulation of those who they encounter that allow the narcissist to excel.

But again, to demonize the most common element in this society as an aberration is not productive and only serves to confuse because the narcissist must be dealt with by courageous individuals who must use the same techniques against them as are used by the narcissist.

[RunningDeer]

Snippets from Dr. Ramani Q&A Live Stream - November 14th

Comment on reaching 100,000 subscribers:




There's at least a hundred thousand people out there I am now more confident are gonna get information about narcissism and why that's so important to me is because I think that that's what disempowers them. The more people that get this, the better off we're going to be. Because the more people who like we don't want people to enable them.

That’s a big way narcissists get their power. They’re enabled. We let them in too far in the gate because we gave them second chances and they had a tough backstory. Abuse is abuse. That's what we've got to remember. You don’t have to be cruel. You can be compassionate but you don't need to be someone’s punching bag.

Some of the Q&A’s:




What can my son expect when he goes to visit his narcissistic father and his stepmother with borderline personality?





He can expect to not be seen to not be listened to to give him realistic expectations so your son doesn't wonder like what's wrong with me. Make it so your son doesn't feel like he has to keep trying harder and harder and harder. That’s what breaks people with narcissistic parents is that they spend their entire childhood jumping through hoops trying to please the narcissistic parent and ending up in adulthood feeling like they can't please anyone in the world and feeling isolated and lonely. You can say to him…




Why do covert narcissists withhold affection?





They ain't got a lot to give. Covert narcissists are so stuck in being victims and constantly monitoring your environment, thinking who's out to get me, why did you say that, being hypersensitive, being almost paranoid. Because of that, forget affection. They’re really bad at intimacy because if anything as soon as they start getting close to someone they feel even more vulnerable they feel even more victimized and they'll often withhold affection…




How can I help my mother who's a victim of my dad who's a narcissist?





It can be devastating to watch a parent wither on the vine in front of you. Especially if it was a mom who did her best to try to be there for you, to protect you, to give you some consistency but watch the life get squeezed out of her.

This is actually in some ways a simple answer let her know you love her and also let her know you see that this hasn't been easy for her. You don't have to give her solutions. You don't have to fix it. You don't have to make a grand pronouncement you need to leave. But say I know this has been hard for you and thank you for everything you did for me. As a mother that might be enough for your mom to know cuz she sure as hell isn't being seen and heard by your dad. But if she’s seen and heard by you that could give her the energy and maybe even the call to life that she needs to keep pushing forward.





Did you hear about what are called highly sensitive persons?





Yes now let’s make something very clear here. There are some people out there when I talk about the hypersensitivity of narcissism I come into it as sort of more of a toxic space where the person is always interpreting harm that other people are saying like: Why'd you say that to me? Why'd you look at me like that? It's always very conflictual.

But in some cases for the highly sensitive person this is a pattern we might see for example in people who are incredibly incredibly empathic people we might term as empaths and as a result they actually may take a harder hits from the narcissist.

But I'll also say this the real real risk of the empaths is that they give too many second chances. They take in too much of the narcissist pain. They take in too much of the narcissist toxicity and they are not able to advocate for themselves as well as they can.

The most important thing for an empath to recognize that that sensitivity. When given to a worthy recipient is wonderful but to be careful to not hand it over to the lowest bidder namely the narcissist.




Could I’ve been wrong about this all along could I be the narcissist?





Anytime somebody asks if there's a narcissist that that's always a good sign. Here’s the deal, if you have contempt for other people, if you have contempt for closeness, you find yourself rolling your eyes when people are saying things you think are ignorant either you're too smart for them catch yourself…




Do narcissists truly let go of their ex-partner if they don’t have a new supply?





That is a fantastic question because actually the answer to that is not really they need that supply. They keep all their ex partners in their phone because when they burn the bridge with a new partner they’ll come back to you. It’s like a warehouse of human beings that they keep getting supply from…





What about narcissistic parents who control their finance and their children financially even into adulthood and how to get out from their grasp?






Narcissistic parents definitely use money. They weaponize money. Money becomes loved in those family systems. It’s really like again the scapegoat often doesn't get the money. The golden child gets more of the money. The children fight about the money. You paid for her wedding. You should pay for my law school. There’s a lot of that and the parents almost like it. Like it's like watching a gladiator game trying to watch your kids sort of tear themselves apart over the money and it gives the parents a lot of power.

The best thing the best thing you could ever do if you had narcissistic parents who use money to control is become financially independent because that takes all of their power away….

The thing you can get out of that is so much better than money which is your freedom and your pride and getting to call the shots it can feel very very good and could take a real mental toll on you when you become dependent on that psychological sort of hijacking that comes up narcissistic parents do with money…




I've seen over a dozen therapist but I haven't found closure to my pain. Do people like me ever recover?





…People in narcissistic relationships don't ever get real closure. You are never gonna get that moment with the narcissist when they say you know I get it. I wasn't there. I wasn't right. I didn't treat you right. I invalidated you etc etc.

And you finally feel heard. You will never get that moment you will never get the deathbed confession. the closure has to come from you. And the closure comes from “I got out of this”. You are not defined by your abuse but you can be defined by leaving your abuse.





Do you think a person should leave the narcissistic parents house it? Would be really hard for me but I am so unhappy here.





I would never want someone to have to live in an unsafe living circumstance because of leaving a setting. But I gotta tell you in some ways living with a narcissistic parent as an adult isn't safe living circumstance and that it's unsafe for your mental health.

If you can think about like what are the sacrifices I’ll have to make? What are the gains? You might say, “I could be pretty content in one room if I am not listening to nightly criticism. “


Dr. Ramani Live Stream - November 14th (19 minutes)
V20ke5DmvN8

[RunningDeer]

How to slow down the video for easy listening:

Some of the speakers talk fast. Click the settings dial at the bottom, right of the video and change the playback speed.

https://i.imgur.com/7IPDGtm.jpg




http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/images/space-bar.jpg


Where to find the video transcript:

Auto-generated transcripts, is a time saver and a good way to grab info especially when summaries aren't provided.

Click on the three dots and then click 'open transcript'. It may take the transcript to process if the video newly loaded.



https://i.imgur.com/AbMIYRd.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/F5VZkI8.gif



Toggle to the no time stamp and cut and paste to speed read, review or click on specific topics. Note: the whole page copies when you cut and paste.



https://i.imgur.com/DvajxZA.jpg


You may need to click on “hide chat” so you can see the transcript.

[onawah]

Some recent videos from VItal Mind Psychology:
Becoming An Emotionally Mature Empath
7/23/19
Vq1pIpncORw

11/23/19
How to Heal Your Inner Child
_tltLnXV4_8

The Empath's Four Self States
Jul 11, 2019
aBU3t0ch8H8

What is an Empath?
7/1/19
RffqdJgbLPc

[onawah]

The paradox of the HAPPY FAMILY and the NARCISSIST
11/11/19
TyaILIHK1AM

This hit home, not because I came from a happy family but because it really makes me cringe when I see such a person naively making themselves vulnerable to attack from narcissists and other disturbed individuals.
How to contribute to their awareness of the untenable position they've put themselves in without appearing to be nothing more than a very cynical person with a negative view of the world?

[AutumnW]

Dr. Todd Grande is wayyyyy ahead of most online experts. I'd really like this fellow to get more traction on Youtube. His information is dense, but explicit, leaving little margin for error.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19RHMZH2Nh4

[AutumnW]

Ernie,

Agree with your point. We live in a Narcissitic age and behavior that would have been viewed as deeply pathological just twenty years ago, is now 'normal.' Probably a feature of rampant insecurity on a cultural level with those who are actual pathological types achieving dominance. Sad and sick situation and maybe linked to increased population, family breakdown, over indulging children and or ignoring them altogether, personal tech, etc...etc... cancer stage of capitalism.

[RunningDeer]

Are You A Safe Person? 8 Indicators

Dr. Les Carter = DRC
https://i.imgur.com/N24Si71.gif

Dr. Les Carter Resources:

Surviving Narcissism (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIELB1mz8wMKIhB6DCmTBlw/videos)
Dr. Les Carter (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZltLphbGES9winlzROiWLw/videos)
DrLesCarter.com (http://drlescarter.com)





Would others consider you trustworthy, reliable, and personable? In other words, are you a safe person? Psychotherapist Dr. Les Carter breaks down the difference between unsafe people and safe people.

Dr. Les Carter is a best selling author and therapist who lives in Dallas, Tx. In the past 39 years he has conducted over 60,000 counseling sessions and many workshops and seminars.




Eight Traits of an Unsafe Person:

Unsafe people don't receive or digest input very well.
Unsafe people can be highly defensive with strong barriers up.
Unsafe people blame and accuse.
Unsafe people aren't really inclined towards intimacy.
Unsafe people operate with a tightly maintained agenda.
Unsafe people are very slow to forgive, if they forgive at all.
Unsafe people can't say “I'm sorry.” They can't say, “I was wrong.”
Unsafe people use one-up, one-down communication.

Eight Traits of a Safe Person:

Safe people are approachable, especially in disagreements.
Safe people want to learn from their mistakes.
Safe people are transparent. (authenticity, i.e. internally and externally consistent)
Safe people genuinely like to connect.
Safe people affirm and encourage.
Safe people have a generally agreeable manner.
Safe people manage anger cleanly.
Safe people are reliable. You can count on them.


V0lbZQLIHDg

[onawah]

Why Empaths Fall For Love Bombing
Vital Mind Psychology
Mar 16, 2019
9_ojB1RuC5Q

UxAUuAuSrbA

[Ernie Nemeth]

In all my days I have only felt safe around a handful of individuals. Those criteria of 'safe' people are exactly the types that are not safe. So I must assume that this is mostly a subjective stance at best. Yes the 'safe' people are easiest to be around. Yes 'safe' people will have your back as long as you tow the line. But, and this is a massive but, they are the first to turn on you for whatever reason they concoct because they themselves never feel safe and never trust anyone. It is in the nature of the 'safe' person to always question, to always look for anomalies, and to never let anyone get away with anything. that is the opposite of 'safe'.

And while the unsafe person may have vested interests, that's okay because so do the 'safe' people. The difference is that the 'unsafe' person is known to have them and admits it while the 'safe' person denies they have such tendencies.

So, in all my years I have had a handful of absolutely 'safe' friends and none of them were 'safe' people. Yet these same 'unsafe' people would have laid down their lives for me just as I would for them. In their presence I was completely safe.

Go figure

[onawah]

How to deal with being held hostage at the THANKSGIVING table
DoctorRamani Nov 28, 2019
hmzoUwpMjw0

How Does Being With a Narcissist Affect Your Body, Mind, and Soul?
DoctorRamani Aug 30,2019
eJr1WQyNpH4

[Seabreeze]

she is so right..:(.. thanks for posting this...

[onawah]

How Do Narcissists REACT When IGNORED
11/25/19
Jess Stanley

( Some new to me, useful info. I just had an experience with a narcissist's "flying monkey", a first for me. )

"No matter the reason WHY you're ignoring a narcissist they are definitely going to notice and react to what you're doing.
There's several different ways they choose to react and this is a list of those possibilities so you can KNOW what's coming!
This will be ESPECIALLY helpful if you're contemplating no contact."

sQD1bMrndJY

[onawah]

When You Unmask a Covert Narcissist, RUN, But Quietly! Counterfeit Relationship, Narcissism Expert
May 30, 2016
Ross Rosenberg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3an9crV9feM

"In this video, I explain the very complicated and dangerous undertaking of protecting yourself when you uncover/unmask a covert narcissist and the dysfunctional relationship they trick you into. Because of their manipulative nature and the fact that they are often respected and even adored by others, taking them on directly is big mistake.

Ross Rosenberg's latest book, The Human Magnet Syndrome: The Codependent Narcissist Trap (2018) and his personal development, seminar, workshop and other services can be found at www.SelfLoveRecovery.com or www.HumanMagnetSyndrome.com.

Ross Rosenberg’s work on codependency, narcissism, trauma, Self-Love Recovery™, and his "Codependency Cure™" has earned him international recognition. He owns Clinical Care Consultants, a multi-location Chicago suburb counseling center, and the Self-Love Recovery Institute. He has traveled to 30 states and twice to Europe to present his workshops. Ross's first book, “The Human Magnet Syndrome" sold over 50K copies and is published in French, Spanish and soon in Czech. His latest Human Magnet Syndrome book, a complete re-write of the first, is available on February 1st. Ross’s 7 million video views/68,000 subscribers YouTube platform has established him as global phenomenon.

Ross owns Clinical Care Consultants, a counseling center located in Arlington Heights and Inverness IL. .

Ross's articles at http://goo.gl/XEVxgE "

3an9crV9feM

I can see why Rosenberg says covert narcissists are the worst kind, and they are dangerous.
I think there can be real demonic possession involved.

[onawah]

Knowing Narcissism. Crucial Information about Narcissistic Personality Disorder
Ross Rosenberg
Jul 8, 2015

( Excellent explanation of how narcissism comes about and how it operates--therapeutic for the victim of the narcissist who is still angry and hurt.
Also, the difference between healthy and unhealthy narcissism.
Empaths are typically most vulnerable to narcissists, and prone to be overly compassionate, which can get us into trouble, but I think it helps to understand the narcissist's dilemma while also keeping boundaries intact, and I found this sensitive description of the narcissists' inner worlds to be illuminating.
Lingering nger and fear aren't pleasant feelings for a narcissist's victim, but understanding can help to dissipate those feelings, as well as enlighten one as to how to recognize and avoid narcissists or even help them, if that is possible.
So much info about narcissists is expressed in such a ridiculing and even hostile manner--it's good to have a sense of humor about such a serious subject and not be naive, but also good to remember they are severely damaged and suffering beings, even if their masks make it so that's not immediately obvious, and that they are extremely difficult to help, if not impossible.)

YtSJUkP_yic

[Seabreeze]

.. they are extremely difficult to help, if not impossible....I agree to this....they need professional help...work up the childhood and whatever else went wrong in their live which made them become a Narcissist.....
But first of all, they need to want this kind of help!!!! There is no way in forcing a Narcissist to make a therapy...

[Seabreeze]

This, I think, is very interesting...especially for people who have or had a traumatic relationship or a PTSD....maybe some good help to know this.

Even Narcissists might could work with this, if they really want to change their ways of behavements? Just an idea...of mine... Well I think this informations are good to know. Decide for yourself....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXSlAfoJiAg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOkSm90f2Do

[onawah]

8 Signs of the Most Destructive Narcissistic Profile
1/30/20
Dr. Todd Grande

(This expert is really good at distinguishing the characteristics and differences in narcissistic types, and they are quite distinct once you know what to look for. )

"This video answers the questions: What is the worst type of narcissistic personality or narcissistic profile? What combination of narcissistic characteristics is the worst for society? What combination of narcissistic characteristics is the worst for the person who has it?

Narcissism:

There are two types of narcissism: With grandiose narcissism we see characteristics like being extroverted, socially bold, self-confident, having a superficial charm, being resistant to criticism, and being callous and unemotional. Vulnerable narcissism is characterized by shame, anger, aggression, hypersensitivity, a tendency to be introverted, defensive, avoidant, anxious, depressed, socially awkward, and shy.

Narcissistic personality disorder is a Cluster B personality disorder in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual. It has nine symptom criteria, five of which are required for a diagnosis.

1: Grandiose sense of self-importance
2: Fantasies
3: Special or unique
4: Requires excessive admiration
5: Sense of entitlement
6: Manipulative
7: Lacks empathy for others
8: Often envious
9: Arrogant attitudes or behaviors "
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Types of Narcissistic Abuse | Exposure, Direct, Insidious, & Emotional Starvation
Feb 23, 2019
Dr. Todd Grande

"This video attempts to answer two questions (1) What is the nature of narcissistic abuse? and (2) What are the types of narcissistic abuse?
The first type of narcissistic abuse is exposure abuse. This one's a fairly basic type of abuse. If someone is in a relationship with a person who is narcissistic, the arrogant and condescending behavior is embarrassing and could result in social isolation for the couple. This is a mild form of abuse or discomfort. The second type this gets much more serious and this is direct abuse. This is when somebody yells, screams, says derogatory remarks, and insults. This is not subtle and it has a fairly pronounced overlap with physical abuse. The third type of narcissistic abuse is insidious abuse. It is really the most common and when people use the term “narcissistic abuse” oftentimes this is what they're really talking about (this is the most discussed on YouTube) This abuse involves manipulation (e.g. gaslighting) It is about maintaining power and control. We also see the classic guilt trip and the wounded hero mentality. The fourth type of emotional abuse I'll talk about here I call emotional starvation, lack of affection and sensitivity, and sometimes I also refer to this as a lack of depth."
KNpeVRB19xU

[onawah]

Why is narcissism so dangerous?
Oct 21, 2019
Dr. Todd Grande

"This video answers the question: Why is narcissism so dangerous?"
cMGGMkN6o-U

Case Study: Narcissism and Snapping | When the Narcissist Loses Control
Jan 26, 2020
Dr. Todd Grande
201K subscribers

"This video answers the question: Can I analyze a case study featuring a narcissist who snapped? Sometimes snapping is referred to as an episode of narcissistic rage.

What does it mean to snap? There is no official scientific definition, but for the purposes this video, here is the definition: when somebody suddenly manifests aggression that is different from their normal behavior.

People can snap for a variety of reasons. The cause of snapping comes down to a combination of stress and personality.

Narcissists are susceptible due to their personality structure and they are also susceptible because they create stress through their behavior."

HRQWLY1ybQc

[onawah]

How "narcissistic fluffing" can help you "play" the narcissist
Feb 24, 2020
DoctorRamani

(This may seem distasteful and manipulative, but I am learning to do it, and agree it can work and make it a lot easier to deal with a narcissist. But I only do it when absolutely necessary, and keep it to a minimum, and don't do it in such a smarmy manner, unlike in Dr. Ramani's exaggerated demonstration. )

cKoIY_egM2E

(And then there's the other extreme, "gray rocking")
Premiered Jan 3, 2020
DoctorRamani

AmksB-SIvtA

[Seabreeze]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3an9crV9feM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlhNURPyU7E

[onawah]

Narcissistic Abuse of the Masses
Asymmetric Warfare: propaganda, psyops and narcissistic abuse of the masses
Mar 27, 2020
RICHARD GRANNON

8FYU4j02fGk

(Some of the insightful comments from the youtube page comment section:
ludlow 889
20 hours ago
Seeing narcissistic abuse at the macro as well as the micro scale is one of the most compelling insights I've encountered. It's uncanny how all the things that create codependents in personal relations are replicated at the level of the masses with hardly any need for a change in method. It's just typical narcissist behavior writ large. And once you see it at the small scale, you can see it at the large scale.

Speedy Pete
3 days ago
Isolating, the Victim from friends, from family, from enjoyable activities and from one's own cultural identity is what narcissistic abusers do in a relationship. We are now being collectively subjected to the same treatment - but "voluntarily" and "for our own good". We are learning to live alone and to distrust our neighbors.

John McKenna
3 days ago
George Orwell's book 1984 should be filed under "non-fiction" as it's become the playbook by which our present reality is being shaped! )

[onawah]

What is "future faking"? (Glossary of Narcissistic Relationships)
Apr 5, 2020
Dr. Ramani

BBMaZLBKNko

[Deux Corbeaux]

Are You A Safe Person? 8 Indicators

Dr. Les Carter = DRC
https://i.imgur.com/N24Si71.gif

Dr. Les Carter Resources:

Surviving Narcissism (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIELB1mz8wMKIhB6DCmTBlw/videos)
Dr. Les Carter (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZltLphbGES9winlzROiWLw/videos)
DrLesCarter.com (http://drlescarter.com)





Would others consider you trustworthy, reliable, and personable? In other words, are you a safe person? Psychotherapist Dr. Les Carter breaks down the difference between unsafe people and safe people.

Dr. Les Carter is a best selling author and therapist who lives in Dallas, Tx. In the past 39 years he has conducted over 60,000 counseling sessions and many workshops and seminars.




Eight Traits of an Unsafe Person:

Unsafe people don't receive or digest input very well.
Unsafe people can be highly defensive with strong barriers up.
Unsafe people blame and accuse.
Unsafe people aren't really inclined towards intimacy.
Unsafe people operate with a tightly maintained agenda.
Unsafe people are very slow to forgive, if they forgive at all.
Unsafe people can't say “I'm sorry.” They can't say, “I was wrong.”
Unsafe people use one-up, one-down communication.

Eight Traits of a Safe Person:

Safe people are approachable, especially in disagreements.
Safe people want to learn from their mistakes.
Safe people are transparent. (authenticity, i.e. internally and externally consistent)
Safe people genuinely like to connect.
Safe people affirm and encourage.
Safe people have a generally agreeable manner.
Safe people manage anger cleanly.
Safe people are reliable. You can count on them.


V0lbZQLIHDg


Thanks Paula, for this video. I found it a bit late, or missed it.

In some cases I like the word “unsafe person” more than labeling someone directly as being a narcissist, although in both cases the underlying cause can be the same: Poor self-esteem.

[Eva2]

Deleted - time to let go!

[onawah]

Why rescuers are narcissist magnets
20,213 views•Jun 9, 2020
DoctorRamani
UVLjY53HxA4

[RunningDeer]

Lessons from People who are "immune" to Narcissists



“… the immune folks are human too and will acknowledge that it's not healthy that these narcissistic relationships are not healthy. But again, not from a place of being shredded and soul crushed by these relationships but from a circumspect place. They accept I just can't get through to them and I am not gonna waste my time and energy on them.

So perhaps being immune to narcissists may really be about being kind to yourself, not taking another person’s behavior personally, learning to shrug a lot, living a life you love, and doing things you enjoy., cultivating your sense of self and in some ways giving up on the expectations that other people dictate to you about life.

“So many people in narcissistic relationships turn themselves into human sacrifices trying to please an unpleasable human being. But if you think about it the day you stop caring about what they think and sort of again shrugging it off, that could be a really, really important step to your freedom. Because here's the thing, narcissistic relationships are so triggering that most of us are probably never going to fully get to this place of immunity. But we can definitely take a page out of the immune persons playbook or at least steal a few of their great psychological antibodies and learn from them.”

“So even if you're never gonna be fully immune, just make it so that the next time you're in the presence of that virus called narcissism, you don't get the full-blown flu.”


hsC2_CUVBp4

[Eva2]

'But if you think about it the day you stop caring about what they think and sort of again shrugging it off, that could be a really, really important step to your freedom.'

Thank you RD for these wise words. I've been consumed for almost a year with my experience and although intellectually I get this, its tough to offload when the deed was so dark and dirty.

[onawah]

I just discovered this source and haven't listened to the whole video as yet, but it looks worthwhile
Narcissist, Empathy and Boundaries with Martina Grubmueller Joining Andrew Bartzis-Adventures Into Reality
6/30/209
https://www.facebook.com/GalacticHistorian/videos/274200466988255/UzpfSTEyNjQ5MDM2NTc6Mjc5NTAzNTQ5Mzk0MTMyMQ/

[RunningDeer]

I just discovered this source and haven't listened to the whole video as yet, but it looks worthwhile
Narcissist, Empathy and Boundaries with Martina Grubmueller Joining Andrew Bartzis-Adventures Into Reality
6/30/209
https://www.facebook.com/GalacticHistorian/videos/274200466988255/UzpfSTEyNjQ5MDM2NTc6Mjc5NTAzNTQ5Mzk0MTMyMQ/


Narcissist, Empathy and Boundaries with Martina Grubmueller Joining
Andrew Bartzis - Adventures Into Reality



The empath is attracted by the pheromones of the narcissist and most time the empath has no control over their skillset. Which creates a soup of of toxicity between the narcissist and the empath.


yBJnBwZ6nIY

[onawah]

Bartzis also says that empathy is the least developed of the psychic skills, which I had never heard before, and that empaths are energy vampires in a way as well, because their energies can be invasive in the person's field whose energies they are feeling.
That last part made sense to me--I've had people complain that they feel kind of like they are being psychically X-rayed when I am trying to sense who they are energetically, and I think true psychics don't have that effect on the people they are reading.
But I don't think that aspiring to psychic powers is necessarily helpful, either.
Many spiritual teachers advise against that, warning that developing psychic powers can be very dangerous and a hindrance to true spirituality.
I have met some real psychics and genuine healers who are very dysfunctional themselves, and seem to be easy targets for negative entities who appear to want to work through them, and can even take them over.
Bartzis also says that empaths can turn into narcissists if they don't learn how to heal, which I had heard before, but he explains the process in more detail.
There was an opportunity for people to call in and speak with Bartzis and Martina, and it appears this may be an ongoing series of talks and chats with listeners.
Bartzis came over to me as a bit of a bully, and Martina not all that sure of herself, so there is a kind of codependent dynamic going on there, I think.
But as with all things, one can take what works and leave the rest.
There was some information shared which gave me good food for thought, if nothing else...

[RunningDeer]

11 (+ One) Tactics for not Letting Narcissists into Your Life in the First Place


Stop with the second chances.
Catch yourself when you make rationalizations for their behavior.
Do your own deep dive in your ideal universe.
Trust your gut.
Don't confuse love and abuse. (Pay attention to the trauma bond.)
Beware of the love bomb.
Be very careful about using words like a magical connection or soulmate.
Be careful if relationship moves too fast.
Turn off the gas light (The first time it gets turned on when you are gaslighted, you’re being emotionally abused.)
Pay attention to the almighty future fake. (The future fake is a classical love-bombing tool. Someday we're going to do this, go here…)
Be careful about making overly big sacrifices early in the relationship. (Moving across the world after three months into the relationship.)
Gatekeeping - be very careful when you listen to other people in the early days of your relationship. (If you're in a fast moving, exciting relationship it'll be the other people say you're so lucky. I wish my person did this for me.)



UdcGsbcANj8

[RunningDeer]

Truth Teller: I'm gonna do what I want, the way that it feels good to me. Because I don't want to participate in toxic structured, toxic cultures.

I don't like calling truth-tellers loners. I think there's a real negative connotation around loners. Truth tellers become very comfortable in their own solitude because it's there they find a sort of comfortable kind of peace.


What do Narcissists do to Truth Tellers? (15 min)
VOEFh5042JQ

[RunningDeer]

Philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche wrote: “Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”


Can you catch narcissism from a narcissist? (16 min)




Enduring a narcissistic relationship really becomes about survival over time these relationships leave you feeling helpless, hopeless and powerless. So to stay in this relationship a lot of people learn to start clipping their own wings. In essence you start giving up on yourself, on life, on the relationship.

What does survival look like? Survival is life stripped to the bare minimum.

Narcissism is not an infectious disease per se. It’s a personality pattern that unfolds as part of one's social development, early life history and their own personal temperament. So no you can't catch it. You develop it.

But here's the tricky bit, the real challenge. If you spend enough time with a narcissist, it does change you. And some of these changes may end up being things you don't like about yourself.

When you're in a narcissistic relationship, you’re subjected to all kinds of awful things: lack of empathy, entitlement, arrogant, their chronic sense of being a victim, their hypersensitivity, their chronic need for validation, for admiration. And what does that mean for you? Years of invalidation, dismissiveness, gaslighting, minimization, walking on eggshells, confusion and self-doubt.



tLYjh8G8Al8

[onawah]

Your Body is Their Weapon - We're all Patients Now
116,614 views•Jul 21, 2020
Amazing Polly
339K subscribers

( THIS HAS PROBABLY ALREADY BEEN POSTED SOMEWHERE ON THE FORUM SINCE IT'S PANDEMIC-RELATED, BUT IT'S ALSO ABOUT THE KINDS OF TECHNIQUES THAT NARCISSISTS USE TO CONTROL AND FEED OFF OF THEIR VICTIMS, FROM GAS LIGHTING TO OBFUSCATING THE TRUTH.
THE WORK OF DR. SAM VAKNIN, EXPERT ON NARCISSISM, IS SOURCED.
POLLY HAS BEEN DOING A GREAT JOB WITH HER RECENT VIDEOS, HELPING US TO CONNECT THE DOTS, IMHO.)

"As a follow on to my "Is This Torture?" video, I discuss the way The Medical Tyranny is turning us all into Chronic Illness Outpatients. I rely on an excellent article by Sam Vaknin called "The Body As A Torture Chamber" and I apply his arguments to what is happening with the #Pandemic."

jeVf8Bq1knk

[onawah]

Review from Alexandra Bruce on the video in post #228 just above:
Your Body is Their Weapon - We're all Patients Now
https://forbiddenknowledgetv.net/your-body-is-their-weapon-were-all-patients-now/

"A couple of weeks ago, Amazing Polly made a popular video, Is This Torture?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=605&v=3yk3xezML8Q&feature=emb_logo
...introducing the idea that the coronavirus response, with the lockdowns and the masks and the school closures and the economic shutdown; the self-isolation – that all of this is not only tantamount to torture, according to Amnesty International’s own definition but it is actively engaging advanced psychological torture techniques that are found in a National Defense Intelligence College manual.

In today’s video, she supplies more evidence to support her claim, from a world authority on narcissism, Dr. Sam Vaknin, who I’ve been aware of since 2005, when I devoured every page of his website with excerpts from his 1999 book, ‘Malignant Self-Love: Narcissism Revisited’.

Polly refers here to Vaknin’s article, ‘The Body as Torture Chamber,’ which compares the world of a chronically ill patient and their interactions with the medical system to being tortured; how their own body becomes the device of torture.Polly believes that this #CoronaHoax global pandemic psyop is clearly capitalizing on the psychology of torture. She says, “They understand about the doctor-patient relationship and they are making us all into patients…

“This should be definitely against the Geneva Conventions. It should be against any form of human decency, to treat someone who is not sick as if they are sick. There are psychological conditions named for that. One of them is Munchausen Syndrome…where a parent gets so much control and so much attention from having a sick child that the parent [intentionally] makes the child sick by giving them little doses of poison or via other methods. This seems to me what’s happening on a a gigantic scale with the coronavirus response.”

An understanding of Narcissistic Personality Disorder is very empowering for everyday life and it is especially helpful for navigating this Fourth Generation Warfare that we’re now in, where we see so many classically Narcissistic control tactics being deployed against the populace.
One of these is Projection, of which Vaknin says: “The narcissist seeks to maintain his inflated fantasy of himself. He denies, slices and splits off, and ‘evacuates’ or projects onto others emotions, cognitions (thoughts), traits, impulses, behaviors and qualities that contradict and contravene [the narcissist’s grandiose Ego Ideal].”

Being that most of us are under stress from the extreme psychological manipulation we’re being subjected to, in addition to the financial, interpersonal and social pressures, I believe it’s of therapeutic benefit to listen to Polly’s presentation."

[Johan (Keyholder)]

:bump:

Another interesting topic that relates sexual abuse and pathological narcissism can be found here, in Onawah's post on the "To be or not to be a conspirator with Ariane Bilheran"-thread.

Link:

The People Haven’t Risen Up For The Same Reason Abuse Victims Don’t Leave Their Abusers
FEBRUARY 27, 2021
CAITLIN JOHNSTONE

https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2021/02/27/the-people-havent-risen-up-for-the-same-reason-abuse-victims-dont-leave-their-abusers/

Accompanying text:

"There was a great exchange in a recent interview with singer-songwriter FKA twigs regarding her relationship with actor Shia LaBeouf, who she is currently suing for “relentless abuse” including assault and sexual battery.



From The Independent:

In a CBS This Morning interview on Thursday (18 February), King asked the musician: “Nobody who’s been in this position likes this question, and I often wonder if it’s even appropriate to ask… why didn’t you leave?”

Twigs replied: “I know that you’re asking it out of love, but like, I’m just going to make a stance and say I’m not going to answer that question anymore because the question should really be to the abuser, ‘Why are you holding someone hostage with abuse?’”

She continued: “People say, ‘Oh, it can’t have been that bad, because she would’ve left.’ And it’s like, no, because it was that bad, I couldn’t leave.”

“Because it was that bad, I couldn’t leave.”

This is what so few people understand about abusive relationships. People see friends and family members stuck in relationships that are obviously horrible and say “She should leave him! Why doesn’t she just leave??” If the abuse happened in secret the first question your loved ones ask when you escape is “Why did you let it go on so long? Why didn’t you leave sooner?”

Those who have escaped abusive relationships know how intensely hurtful this question is, how violent it feels to have it inflicted upon you by people who are supposed to be on your side and supporting you. It feels so violent because you have perspective that others do not: you understand that your inability to leave the abusive relationship was itself a fundamental product of the abuse.

Abusive relationships aren’t just one partner doing cruel things to another. If they were, there would be no relationship: there’d just be a woman getting assaulted one time by her boyfriend and then immediately leaving. Abusive relationships necessarily include the construction of psychological barriers to leaving, or else they would not exist. Victims of abuse are kept constantly confused, off-balance, insecure and unsure of themselves, because their abuse always necessarily includes the element of psychological manipulation.

You’re being caged psychologically, and you’re kept too confused and off-balance to even be aware that that’s what’s happening. So you stay where you are, just as surely as you would if you’d been placed in a physical cage.

This is why people stay in abusive relationships, whether it’s abusive relationships with significant others or abusive relationships with empires.

As a collective, we remain in our current relationship with abusive power structures because we are collectively kept confused, off-balance, insecure and unsure of ourselves, as a critical element of our collective abuse is mass-scale psychological manipulation.

Vast fortunes are poured into keeping us from realizing that we are being exploited by powerful wealth hoarders while our nation’s resources are sent to fight wars of planetary domination. That our ecosystem is being destroyed for profit with no real plan for what to do when it’s gone. That we are being increasingly oppressed and impoverished to keep us from having enough awareness and wealth to dethrone our rulers. And that it doesn’t have to be this way at all.

And make no mistake, it absolutely does not have to be this way. The difference between our relationship with the oligarchic empire and FKA twigs’ relationship with Shia LaBeouf is that we are far, far bigger and far, far stronger than our abusers. This isn’t Shia LaBeouf abusing a small female pop star, this is Shia LaBeouf abusing a great giantess the size of a planet. They work so hard to keep us confused and manipulated because they know the second they cease to do so we can crush them like a mosquito.

But the dynamic is the same in both cases: we are being victimized by manipulative abusers. The manipulation is part of the abuse. It is not our fault that they cage our minds like this, it’s theirs. They are to blame, not the ordinary people just trying desperately to get by, voting for the status quo in election after election because they’ve been kept too confused and insecure to see clearly what’s going on. We haven’t left our abusive relationship yet because it is that bad.

The good news, of course, is that people do leave. They do escape their abusive relationships. The light of truth cannot remain hidden forever, and sociopathic manipulators do not understand the depths of human experience well enough to block it out. They are shallow, and we are deep. They cannot understand the dimensions of ourselves which are secretly moving toward freedom well enough to anticipate and prevent those movements.

If you have a loved one who is in an abusive relationship, you draw attention to what you are seeing, you let them know that you are there for them, you trust their inner wisdom to find a way to escape someday, and when they do you are there waiting for them with the engine running. When you have a collective that is in an abusive relationship, you draw attention to the abusive dynamics you are seeing, you trust humanity’s unfathomable depths to produce an escape route, and when the time comes to rise up, you are there at the ready."

THANKS Onawah! It's a good idea to bring this thread back and continue the discussion!

[Journeyman]

Sometimes you read things and think, why isn't this taught to everyone?

Of course, if it were, a lot of the control systems that oppress us wouldn't work as effectively as they do. Nevertheless, anyone who has been the victim of the approaches outlined in @Herve 's opening post, which is likely everyone of us, would recognise how insidiously effective they can be to the unprepared.

Until you've fully confronted the psychopath/sociopath/passive aggressive narcissist most normal people can't comprehend just how damaging and draining such encounters can be. We need to be armoured as individuals, groups and societies to stop this minority of people from poisoning all around them. Unchecked, they are as hazardous to human life as any chemical or weapon known to humanity!

[meat suit]

this is a must watch if you are interested in understanding narcissism from the inside.
there are many good comments below the video too

How I Experience My Narcissism: Aware, Not Healed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIOKzEM1ijI

[onawah]

Pandemic Slaves and Their Neo-feudal Lords: Envy-fuelled Global Insurrection
44,170 views•Apr 26, 2020
1.6K
Prof. Sam Vaknin
156K subscribers

"Envy, uncertainty, and rage globalized will lead to social unrest. The pandemic spells the end of entrepreneurship, small to medium businesses, and self-employment and the rise of the gig temp contractor economy. It also catalyzes the shift from the real economy to the trading in expectations."
6CAE9sEfSp4

[onawah]

The Dark Empath
369,159 viewsNov 8, 2020
18K
DoctorRamani
666K subscribers
1o7FTfKR9kg

[Bill Ryan]

In this excellent video interview, Dr Lee Merritt gives an astonishingly clear and simple description of how psychopaths function, what they do, and how easy it is for them to reach high levels in any organization — including government.

Start in at 17:27, just for a few minutes. It's really worth it.

ad8eoWMVtJFu

[Gwin Ru]

...

... Twilight Of The Psychopaths (https://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?98897-Political-Ponerology&p=1167948&viewfull=1#post1167948)

[BoR]

The reason why this world today has gone so out of hand is because a lot of good people have never studied or understood psychopathy, which is why many can’t accept or believe the truths about how the world is run and call them conspiracy theories, because “nobody can be this evil”. What they miss is, that it is not so much about being evil (effect), but more about missing a part of their personality that most people do have (cause).

[onawah]

No doubt that is because psychopaths have not allowed that information to be widely disseminated! :tsk:

The reason why this world today has gone so out of hand is because a lot of good people have never studied or understood psychopathy, which is why many can’t accept or believe the truths about how the world is run and call them conspiracy theories, because “nobody can be this evil”. What they miss is, that it is not so much about being evil (effect), but more about missing a part of their personality that most people do have (cause).

[RunningDeer]

Narc Repellant





I am a narcissistic psychopath and I'm aware of what I am and what I do. I understand also my kind inside out because I have spent a very long time observing my kind, interacting with my kind…


I know my kind inside out and that's why I'm able to blow apart these myths which keep you stuck. And therefore part of protecting yourself is to become knock repellent.


If you are an empath you have an addiction to the narcissist and your addiction sits at the heart of you trying to ensure that you enter into one or more of the five arenas of interaction for the purposes of feeding that addiction. It does so through the creation of emotional thinking. This means that you will use flawed logic. You’ll make decisions which seem sensible to you but actually they're not it'll cause the corruption of your empathic …


Most people fail at no contact because they don't actually understand how to do it and because of the influence of their emotional thinking. Many people believe they can't do no contact when actually they can. It of course requires some effort it requires discipline but it can be achieved. And of course this is the thing that damages us the most.

We absolutely hate no contact because you are not only having removed yourself from us but by having nothing more to do with us ever again, you are telling us that we simply do not exist and that is anathema to us. It’s the most potent weapon that you have.


All the thoughts about fluffing the narcissist, trying to maintain some kind of relationship with the narcissist, looking to get revenge on the narcissist in some alternative way beyond no contact all of those things pale by comparison with the effect of a no contact regime we can't stand it.


Narc Repellant (7 minutes)



Make yourself Narc Repellant by knowing what to do and just as importantly what you must NOT do.


Narc Repellant link (https://gum.co/QkhWS) - description below




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Do you want to become Narc Repellant?




Here are the myths and the truths about what keeps the narcissist at bay.

In this two part Logic Bulletin, crammed with information, you will learn how to make yourself Narc Repellant. To achieve this, you need to understand the myths about keeping the narcissist at bay, why those items are myths and why they do not work. This will ensure you do not use them and you do not fall into the trap set by your Emotional Thinking to use you to fall into them.

This material will also set out the truths about becoming a Narc Repellant so you not only know what to avoid, but also what you must do.

The detailed Logic Bulletin addresses the following key components, amongst many more:

The effect of Massive Wounding
The effect of the narcissist gaining a new IPPS
The impact of you holding damaging information about the narcissist
The effect of you exposing the narcissist
What happens when you unleash The Attack Dog
How the narcissist will respond when you have the narcissist worked out
The perils of intel gathering on the narcissist
The Mastermind Narcissist
The Out of Reach concept
The Walk Away, Don’t Talk Away principle

[Pam]

Narc Repellant





I am a narcissistic psychopath and I'm aware of what I am and what I do. I understand also my kind inside out because I have spent a very long time observing my kind, interacting with my kind…


I know my kind inside out and that's why I'm able to blow apart these myths which keep you stuck. And therefore part of protecting yourself is to become knock repellent.


If you are an empath you have an addiction to the narcissist and your addiction sits at the heart of you trying to ensure that you enter into one or more of the five arenas of interaction for the purposes of feeding that addiction. It does so through the creation of emotional thinking. This means that you will use flawed logic. You’ll make decisions which seem sensible to you but actually they're not it'll cause the corruption of your empathic …


Most people fail at no contact because they don't actually understand how to do it and because of the influence of their emotional thinking. Many people believe they can't do no contact when actually they can. It of course requires some effort it requires discipline but it can be achieved. And of course this is the thing that damages us the most.

We absolutely hate no contact because you are not only having removed yourself from us but by having nothing more to do with us ever again, you are telling us that we simply do not exist and that is anathema to us. It’s the most potent weapon that you have.


All the thoughts about fluffing the narcissist, trying to maintain some kind of relationship with the narcissist, looking to get revenge on the narcissist in some alternative way beyond no contact all of those things pale by comparison with the effect of a no contact regime we can't stand it.


Narc Repellant (7 minutes)



Make yourself Narc Repellant by knowing what to do and just as importantly what you must NOT do.


Narc Repellant link (https://gum.co/QkhWS) - description below




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Do you want to become Narc Repellant?




Here are the myths and the truths about what keeps the narcissist at bay.

In this two part Logic Bulletin, crammed with information, you will learn how to make yourself Narc Repellant. To achieve this, you need to understand the myths about keeping the narcissist at bay, why those items are myths and why they do not work. This will ensure you do not use them and you do not fall into the trap set by your Emotional Thinking to use you to fall into them.

This material will also set out the truths about becoming a Narc Repellant so you not only know what to avoid, but also what you must do.

The detailed Logic Bulletin addresses the following key components, amongst many more:

The effect of Massive Wounding
The effect of the narcissist gaining a new IPPS
The impact of you holding damaging information about the narcissist
The effect of you exposing the narcissist
What happens when you unleash The Attack Dog
How the narcissist will respond when you have the narcissist worked out
The perils of intel gathering on the narcissist
The Mastermind Narcissist
The Out of Reach concept
The Walk Away, Don’t Talk Away principle



Holy Moly, this is powerful, powerful stuff. I have just read post and will watch the video later, thank you so much Paula. I had to come to a rather painful decision to simply stop interaction with my sister because of my recognized vulnerability to listening to my "older sister" dynamics and her intense narcissistic manipulations over the years and realizing how incredibly destructive it was to have interactions and manipulations by her. She was my big narcissist denial. Just didn't want to see it until I just could not take any more.

I accept my role in playing out the "I listen to my big sis" part, but over and over the manipulations are debilitating to an empath. I just decided and it is without malice or hard feelings at this time that it is just healthier not to get lost in that swamp again and again. I want to emphasize that I understand it takes 2 to tango. In no way do I see the empath as innately good and the narcissist bad. She doesn't get to enact her role without my participation but I have never been able to balance the relationship to a basic healthy interaction so I just let go.

I have to go back and look at this thread with new eyes. My perceptions have changed over time and I bet I get a lot more out of this now.

[Johan (Keyholder)]

An observation I have made, and I am not sure it has been talked about here. It's an experience I have had, spread over 25 years.

It's also a word of caution.

What do PN's (pathological narcissists) do? Search for NS, narcissistic supply.
Where is the largest supply to be found? Where victims of PN look for help...

It's easier to locate foodsources for PN's. They have many of those together, just in one place.

Supportgroups for instance. Workshops. Sources of information about PN, centers for child abuse,
domestic violence, you name it.

How they operate? They "claim" the territory! (Don't they always).Which can be done in many ways.
It's very treacherous... because the victims "trust" the place where they come for help.

PN's are very good in impersonating. Pretending to be what they are not.

Sometimes they will "convince" an author to publish a book (for them), and misuse that way "their position".

Or create a self-help group for abuse-victims.
The possibilities are just endless.

At least someone like Sam Vaknin informs people he IS a PN and doesn't "hide" that. Plus his info is in my opinion quite "spot on".

Not every source is like that - misleading - of course. But many are. It takes careful discernment to know "which is which".

And while the info ("the message") may be valid, the source of it ("the messenger") is NOT. It's just their (PN) way to "entrap" potential victims.

[RunningDeer]

Middle Mid Range Narcissist : Angel With A Dirty Face




The angel with the dirty face is a middle mid-range narcissist for the most part who is utterly convinced of their inherent goodness and moreover they have an unquenchable desire for the world to know that they are a good person. That is a differentiating factor towards an empath. Empaths don't need to shout about it. This facade of virtue and integrity is fundamental. It is how they truly believe they are because this is what the world must know about them.

The angel with the dirty face has a towering conviction that they are good and you had better believe it because if you do not well then that makes you a bad person. Why? Because you’re threatening their control.

You are oblivious to the touch which taints and the soiled footprints which beat a path back and forth to you. These individuals manifest as the patient friend who listens to your tale of woe, the kindly physician with the twinkling eyes who resides at bedside manner, the soothing carer who chats the elderly and infirm, the diligent charity worker and the host of the site which professes to guide you the victim out of the maze of
narcissistic abuse.

The angel with the dirty face is very much the preserve the middle mid-range narcissist. He or she truly believes that they are a good person. They want you to know it too and you must accept it. Well because in their world, it's true. They believe that they care about other people. They think that they do good work, but they must be acknowledged for it and this must occur repeatedly. They want the recognition. They want you to tell them how good they are that they are helping people. That they see you understand that they are honest and decent. Of course all of these responses are the fuel that they instinctively crave, although they are unable to recognize that. They see nothing wrong with being identified, highlighted, and rewarded for their sterling work. After all, doesn’t that just tell more people about the good that they are doing?

So how do you find the filth beneath the purity? How do you ascertain whether that person truly does feel that emotional empathy is good of heart and mind and is not just part of a facade or a veneer? There are two detergents which remove the masking facade and expose the dirt that this lurks underneath.

The first concerns recognition as I mentioned earlier, the angel with the dirty face must have recognition. Recognition equates to fuel equates to control. Watch what happens if you fail to acknowledge that person's contribution or if you record it to somebody else an empathic individual may be hurt that their efforts have gone unrecognized, but they're largely keep it to themselves not wishing to be seen as churlish or attention seeking. They may leave it to another to correct the error but they certainly won't make a song and dance about being overlooked…

The second method of exposure is that of challenge. An empathic person recognizes that people have views and opinions that it matters that they should be able to articulate them and that they are not invalidated. I have learned much about this in my interactions with other people and I am intrigued by their capacity to allow this. They will allow other people to state their case. They will advance their own but recognize that the two can exist side by side. It is genuine tolerance. It isn't done for show or for kudos but born out of the empathic trait of decency of allowing the voices of others and also of being an excellent listener. Not so the angel with a dirty face. If you challenge their mythology, methodology of how they dispense their apparent care, if you disagree with their views, if you suggest there is a better way, you will then see the angelic coating recede and the dirt beneath come very much before.

When challenged in this way the angel with a dirty face feels their superiority attacked and therefore since they are a mid-range narcissist in disguise, this attack on their perceived superiority challenges their sense of control. Ignites their fury and the attack must be repelled accordingly watch out for the following:

Being smeared in bad mouth to third parties for your audacious criticism of the angel with the dirty face after all they have done and just because you are jealous of what I do and all I'm trying to do is help people and this is how I’m treated.

Directing lieutenants and members of the coterie to attack transgressor. This is especially evident in an online environment where people will jump in on the accused intent and long blows on behalf of the mid-range narcissist after all he or she prefers others to be doing the dirty work.

Invalidating the view of the transgressor and doing so without reference to any substantive point but saying they're wrong because they are wrong almost like a child responding.

Going on the attack directly against the perceived transgressor.

Acting hurt and crestfallen.

Rolling out pity plays.

Accusing the transgressor through projection most notably labeling them as a narcissist.

Isolating the perceived transgressor through familial or social ostracization, removal from social media, removal from committees or employment.



Middle Mid Range Narcissist : Angel With A Dirty Face (14 min)




The Mid Middle Range Narcissist (includes Types A and B) presents as kind and empathic, much of the time, however they are actually an angel with a dirty face. How can you determine which individual is the narcissist and distinguish them from an empath or normal person? As always, HG Tudor provides you with the answers.

Consult: https://narcsite.com/private-audio-co...
Narc Detector: https://narcsite.com/narc-detector-2/
Empath Detector: https://narcsite.com/empath-detector/
Knowledge Vault: https://gumroad.com/tudorhg
More information: https://narcsite.com
Email: narcissist1909@gmail.com
House of Tudor: https://narcsite.com/the-house-of-tudor/


NcvbHxRWVqU

[Johan (Keyholder)]

Excellent post Runningdeer!

It looks like you were describing in more detail what I pointed at in my post just above!
We were typing our posts at the very same moment.

While typing my post, I was exactly thinking of the 8 points you mentioned.

I agree, it IS an excellent way to "see" the mud on that "angel's" face!

[Johan (Keyholder)]

Does that mean that Mr. Tudor is another "Sam Vaknin"?

From his website: "Mr. Tudor writes from his own perspective as a narcissist psychopath "

Maybe PN's talking about PN is the best re-source one can have?

[RunningDeer]

Does that mean that Mr. Tudor is another "Sam Vaknin"?
I'd say, "Yes."

Excellent post Runningdeer!
Thanks, Johan. http://paula.avalonlibrary.net/smilies/hat-baseball.gif

Holy Moly, this is powerful, powerful stuff. I have just read post and will watch the video later, thank you so much Paula. I had to come to a rather painful decision to simply stop interaction with my sister because of my recognized vulnerability to listening to my "older sister" dynamics and her intense narcissistic manipulations over the years and realizing how incredibly destructive it was to have interactions and manipulations by her. She was my big narcissist denial. Just didn't want to see it until I just could not take any more.

http://paula.avalonlibrary.net/smilies/read-paper.gif
I just ordered this book, Pam.


“Exorcism: Purging the Narcissist From Heart and Soul”

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41LkE052ZFL._SX331_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg




Summary (https://www.amazon.com/Exorcism-Purging-Narcissist-Heart-Soul/dp/1539306577/ref=sr_1_5?crid=2S1DED29RY38F&keywords=H.+G.+Tudor&qid=1643209549&s=books&sprefix=h.+g.+tudor%2Cstripbooks%2C74&sr=1-5):
269 ratings - 4.5




The narcissist may be physically gone but his or her influence remains and it hurts. Whether you have escaped the narcissist or you have been cruelly discarded, the period thereafter is difficult, worrying and painful.

Why can't you move on?
Why do you keep thinking about them?
How can we exert such a hold over you for months afterwards?
Why can't you get him or her out of your mind?
Why do you see them everywhere you look?
Why does it feel like he or she is still buried deep in your heart?
What can you do to get rid of this feeling?

This is the answer. Through the narcissist's perspective you will understand why you have been infected, why it is so effective and how you can successfully exorcise the narcissist from your heart and soul.


Other books & kindle editions by H.G. Tudor (https://www.amazon.com/s?k=hg+tudor&i=stripbooks&dc&crid=2Z7RLKAEZAVY0&sprefix=H.+G.+Tudor%2Cstripbooks%2C383&ref=a9_sc_1)

[Johan (Keyholder)]

For those interested, here is a good website, not so well known.

https://voicelessness.com/

This is a psychologist that has been a PN-victim himself.

Personally it is my conviction that any psychotherapist/psychologist saying that they "specialize" in a particular domain, should have been exposed to "whatever" is present in that domain. And when you see that some list a dozen (or more) fields of specialty, that alone should be enough to shun them. Studying a "specialty" is never enough!

Grossman is one of the few psychologists I would trust on this.

His message board is excellent too (but not possible to become a member, for years now.

[RunningDeer]

For those interested, here is a good website, not so well known.

https://voicelessness.com/

This is a psychologist that has been a PN-victim himself.

Personally it is my conviction that any psychotherapist/psychologist saying that they "specialize" in a particular domain, should have been exposed to "whatever" is present in that domain. And when you see that some list a dozen (or more) fields of specialty, that alone should be enough to shun them. Studying a "specialty" is never enough!

Grossman is one of the few psychologists I would trust on this.

His message board is excellent too (but not possible to become a member, for years now.

http://paula.avalonlibrary.net/smilies/write.gif
Thanks for the resource, Johan. I'm not familiar with Dr. Richard Grossman. This is his YouTube channel (https://www.youtube.com/c/soundjourney/videos). It goes back 14 years, but he’s no longer active on it. The most recent one was 3 years ago.

[Johan (Keyholder)]

Yes, but his website (and forum) still is.

He is as far as I know a very quiet person.

[onawah]

Angel with the Dirty Face
I found the info in RunningDeer's post #242 to be most helpful.
I recently ran into one of these cases (in my continuing education in narcissism which the universe has been so generously supplying me with :nerd: :shocked::twitch:).
I sent it on to a fellow empath, who also knows that particular narcissist.
(And I did a bit of editing of the original description for clarity, as follows):

"Middle Mid Range Narcissist : Angel With A Dirty Face

The angel with the dirty face is a middle mid-range narcissist, for the most part, who is utterly convinced of their inherent goodness.
Moreover, they have an unquenchable desire for the world to know that they are a good person.
(That is a differentiating factor from an empath. Empaths don't need to shout about it.)
This facade of virtue and integrity is fundamental. It is how they truly believe they are, and this is what they want the world to know about them.

The angel with the dirty face has a towering conviction that they are good and you had better believe it because if you do not, well then, that makes you a bad person.
Why? Because you’re threatening their control.

You may be oblivious to the touch which taints and the soiled footprints which beat a path back and forth to you.
These individuals manifest as the patient friend who listens to your tale of woe, the kindly physician with the twinkling eyes who resides at bedside manner, the soothing caregiver who chats the elderly and infirm, the diligent charity worker and the host of the site which professes to guide you, the victim, out of the maze of narcissistic abuse.

The angel with the dirty face is very much the preserve of the middle mid-range narcissist.
He or she truly believes that they are a good person. They want you to know it too and you must accept it.
Because in their world, it's true.
They believe that they care about other people.
They think that they do good work, but they must be acknowledged for it and this must occur repeatedly.
They want the recognition. They want you to tell them how good they are that they are helping people.
They want to see you understand that they are honest and decent.
Of course, all of these responses are the fuel that they instinctively crave, although they are unable to recognize that.
They see nothing wrong with being identified, highlighted, and rewarded for their sterling work.
After all, doesn’t that just tell more people about the good that they are doing?

So how do you find the filth beneath the purity?
How do you ascertain whether that person truly does feel that emotional empathy is goodness of heart and mind, and is not just part of a facade or a veneer?
There are two detergents which remove the masking facade and expose the dirt that lurks underneath.

The first concerns recognition. The angel with the dirty face must have recognition.
Recognition equates to fuel, equates to control.
Watch what happens if you fail to acknowledge that person's contribution.
An empathic individual may be hurt that their efforts have gone unrecognized, but they will largely keep it to themselves, not wishing to be seen as churlish or attention seeking.
They may leave it to another to correct the error, but they certainly won't make a song and dance about being overlooked…

The second method of exposure is that of challenge.
An empathic person recognizes that people have views and opinions, that it matters that they should be able to articulate them and that they are not invalidated.
They will allow other people to state their case.
They will advance their own but recognize that the two can exist side by side.
It is genuine tolerance. It isn't done for show or for kudos, but born out of the empathic trait of decency of allowing the voices of others and also of being an excellent listener.
Not so the angel with a dirty face.
If you challenge their mythology, methodology of how they dispense their apparent care, if you disagree with their views, if you suggest there is a better way, you will then see the angelic coating recede and the dirt beneath come very much to the fore.

When challenged in this way the angel with a dirty face feels their superiority attacked and therefore, since they are a mid-range narcissist in disguise, this attack on their perceived superiority challenges their sense of control.
It ignites their fury and the attack must be repelled accordingly.
Watch out for the following:
Being smeared to third parties for your audacious criticism of the angel with the dirty face after all they have done, and just because you are jealous of what they do.
"And all they are trying to do is help people and this is how they're treated", etc.
Directing lieutenants and members of the coterie to attack the transgressor.
This is especially evident in an online environment, where people will jump on the accused on behalf of the mid-range narcissist.
After all, he or she prefers others to be doing the dirty work.
Invalidating the view of the transgressor and doing so without reference to any substantive point, almost like a child.
Going on the attack directly against the perceived transgressor.
Acting hurt and crestfallen.
Rolling out plays for pity.
Accusing the transgressor through projection, most notably labeling them as a narcissist.
Isolating the perceived transgressor through familial or social ostracization, removal from social media, removal from committees or employment."

[RunningDeer]

The Doormat Empath (12 min)




What is the doormat empath? What are the characteristics that appertain to this individual? How does this empath interact with the narcissist? Which school and cadre are most likely to be the Doormat Empath.

bY0HBlEfVSA


snippets:



I identified certain characteristics that my sister, Rachael, as an empath has which I've also seen in those who have been my primary source victims. I've concluded that whilst numerous of these victims have come close to being doormats, only three have actually achieved that status alongside that of my sister.

Now it is a mistake to think that a doormat would be regarded as weak. Naturally my kind think this but that's part of our narcissistic mechanism for the maintenance of control over you by pouring scorn on your traits and how they lead you to be treated.

Those who are dormant actually exhibit a different kind of strength. They are weak in that they fail to assert themselves with sufficient emphasis to enable them to escape the worst of our treatment. But they possess a strength by virtue of those characteristics to be able to have those characteristics and keep them whilst being abused, ignored, trampled on taken for granted is perversely a form of strength and one which we welcome.

We require appliances that will keep functioning, obeying us, pumping out the fuel and complying without breaking down and malfunctioning the first time that matters become rough. Finding a doormat amongst our victims is gratifying because it means that this person will not immediately depart. They’ve no desire to do so. It goes further however because they wish to stay not only for our reasons but for their own fulfillment as well. And therefore the doormat is a choice victim for our kind because they actively choose to stay notwithstanding what is being done to them.

What are the main traits that constitute a doormat?





The individual is naturally an empath and therefore constitutes empathic traits which exceed their own narcissistic traits.


The individual is sensitive and prone to bouts of considerable guilt.


This person has learned to survive hostile environments by meeting our need for gratification. First and foremost applies to the submission to control and the provision of fuel but it goes further the doormat will gratify us by allowing us to do what we want, recognizes our need and right to do so, allows us to utilize whatever resources we see fit, and caters for all our needs in terms of fuel trade provision and residual benefits.



Doormats perception of love has become skewed. This person seeks love through the excessive accommodation of another’s needs. This may not just be us when we have attached them as a primary source to us but in respect of other individuals. Those individuals may not be narcissistic but the doormat still wishes to accommodate the wishes of other people. Something of course which will then irritate us and lead to conflict because the doormat regards his or her role as one of accommodating everybody because then that means that they will feel loved, appreciated, liked.


The doormat simply gives too much. They do not take. They give of themselves on every level from their emotions, their dedication, their time, their energy, their thoughts and their resources. They are impressively resourced in these matters and appear to have almost limitless time energy etc. Although eventually it does become evident that they have not and there are only finite amounts.


The doormat does not feel safe unless he or she gives. If they perceive that they are taking, this causes them alarm even distress. If they are neither giving or taking they feel restless and out of their comfort zone. They need to provide and to give and it allows them to fulfill their role and in turn embodies a sense of safety for them. Once they begin to feel safe they will continue to give in order to remain in this safe place. This is why the doormat is particularly drawn to our kind. Because we are the takers and we take on a vast scale. We cater in our own way for the doormat and even though the doormat may not know what we are their coupling with us driven by their own addiction provides them with innate sense of safety and security although of course this is misled by their emotional thinking.


The doormat must meet the emotional needs of the narcissist. We are empty. We are voids. And your emotional attention, your fuel needs to be poured into us. The doormat feels a need to ensure that those excessive emotional needs are met although fails to realize that this can never be achieved. And therefore remains hooked, driven by their addiction and their emotional thinking and beholden to us, in as the doormat tries to achieve the impossible.


The doormat suffers low self-esteem but this is boosted by the success of the narcissist. My victims who were doormats found that their self-esteem was increased by my achievements and my accomplishments. Not because they commandeered them for themselves but because they felt that they had been able to contribute to that as a consequence of allowing me to shine, to search, by catering to all of the background needs if you will that allowed me to get on with the important stuff.


However the doormat doesn't acquire the traits of our success at all. What they do is they revel given their empathic nature in our success. Which they feel they’ve been able to help us do because they have catered for the minutiae, the mundane matters. Catering to those things that would otherwise preoccupy our time leaving us to get on with the the shiny special glorious amazing things instead. They are the permanent backroom staff that allows us to shine on the stage.


The doormat has a high tolerance to emotional abuse. The lashing out to heated fury and cold fury from our kind against the doormat causes the doormat to realize that the emotional need of our kind has increased i.e the need for fuel and control. This signals to them that they must leap into action. They have a call of duty and rather than find the emotional abuse debilitating at least at first, they regard it as a useful signal for them to do something in order to cater to the needs of the narcissist to give control, to provide fuel. Although of course they don't realize this is specifically what they are doing. They regard it as being taking steps to assist to be supportive, to listen, and in turn they give the control that we crave and pour the fuel in our direction.


Unfortunately, for the doormat all they are actually doing is allowing a pressure to build up of this repeated emotional abuse. The doormat can tolerate it for longer than a standard empathic victim but then there comes a point where the threshold is reached. The pressure can no longer be sustained and withheld and at that point there is a substantial and serious and damaging effect on the doormat from the least of this pressure they break down.


The doormat feels guilt when catering for their own needs, therefore almost in a masochistic way will place themselves in the firing line. Once again with our kind in order to ease this guilt.


The doormat actually feels undeserving of being loved. They want to be loved for what they do rather than what they are. They regard themselves as fundamentally unworthy of love save when they are carrying out their role.




In terms of the empathic constitution of an individual who is a doormat, they will have a majority and a significant, a very significant majority outcome with regard to codependency as a consequence of their empath detector test. They will also show at the minimum strong martyr more likely moving into majority…

[avid]

My religious mother always taught to give was better than to receive. Henceforth at my 50th party I gave personalised goody bags to each of my ‘friends’.
Giving reiki healing was a pleasure to alleviate anyone’s suffering, no charge. Yet I was/am a strong person. Don't suffer fools. I am noone’s doormat - or am I? Still doing good works, donating etc etc. who cares, life is short and I just want fairness for all. Have I got the wrong end of the stick? Love is not expected to be a reward, just respect I think, which I need.

[onawah]

Sadly, a "human doing", in other words, rather than a human being.



The doormat actually feels undeserving of being loved. They want to be loved for what they do rather than what they are. They regard themselves as fundamentally unworthy of love save when they are carrying out their role.

[Pam]

The Doormat Empath (12 min)




What is the doormat empath? What are the characteristics that appertain to this individual? How does this empath interact with the narcissist? Which school and cadre are most likely to be the Doormat Empath.

bY0HBlEfVSA


snippets:



I identified certain characteristics that my sister, Rachael, as an empath has which I've also seen in those who have been my primary source victims. I've concluded that whilst numerous of these victims have come close to being doormats, only three have actually achieved that status alongside that of my sister.

Now it is a mistake to think that a doormat would be regarded as weak. Naturally my kind think this but that's part of our narcissistic mechanism for the maintenance of control over you by pouring scorn on your traits and how they lead you to be treated.

Those who are dormant actually exhibit a different kind of strength. They are weak in that they fail to assert themselves with sufficient emphasis to enable them to escape the worst of our treatment. But they possess a strength by virtue of those characteristics to be able to have those characteristics and keep them whilst being abused, ignored, trampled on taken for granted is perversely a form of strength and one which we welcome.

We require appliances that will keep functioning, obeying us, pumping out the fuel and complying without breaking down and malfunctioning the first time that matters become rough. Finding a doormat amongst our victims is gratifying because it means that this person will not immediately depart. They’ve no desire to do so. It goes further however because they wish to stay not only for our reasons but for their own fulfillment as well. And therefore the doormat is a choice victim for our kind because they actively choose to stay notwithstanding what is being done to them.

What are the main traits that constitute a doormat?





The individual is naturally an empath and therefore constitutes empathic traits which exceed their own narcissistic traits.


The individual is sensitive and prone to bouts of considerable guilt.


This person has learned to survive hostile environments by meeting our need for gratification. First and foremost applies to the submission to control and the provision of fuel but it goes further the doormat will gratify us by allowing us to do what we want, recognizes our need and right to do so, allows us to utilize whatever resources we see fit, and caters for all our needs in terms of fuel trade provision and residual benefits.



Doormats perception of love has become skewed. This person seeks love through the excessive accommodation of another’s needs. This may not just be us when we have attached them as a primary source to us but in respect of other individuals. Those individuals may not be narcissistic but the doormat still wishes to accommodate the wishes of other people. Something of course which will then irritate us and lead to conflict because the doormat regards his or her role as one of accommodating everybody because then that means that they will feel loved, appreciated, liked.


The doormat simply gives too much. They do not take. They give of themselves on every level from their emotions, their dedication, their time, their energy, their thoughts and their resources. They are impressively resourced in these matters and appear to have almost limitless time energy etc. Although eventually it does become evident that they have not and there are only finite amounts.


The doormat does not feel safe unless he or she gives. If they perceive that they are taking, this causes them alarm even distress. If they are neither giving or taking they feel restless and out of their comfort zone. They need to provide and to give and it allows them to fulfill their role and in turn embodies a sense of safety for them. Once they begin to feel safe they will continue to give in order to remain in this safe place. This is why the doormat is particularly drawn to our kind. Because we are the takers and we take on a vast scale. We cater in our own way for the doormat and even though the doormat may not know what we are their coupling with us driven by their own addiction provides them with innate sense of safety and security although of course this is misled by their emotional thinking.


The doormat must meet the emotional needs of the narcissist. We are empty. We are voids. And your emotional attention, your fuel needs to be poured into us. The doormat feels a need to ensure that those excessive emotional needs are met although fails to realize that this can never be achieved. And therefore remains hooked, driven by their addiction and their emotional thinking and beholden to us, in as the doormat tries to achieve the impossible.


The doormat suffers low self-esteem but this is boosted by the success of the narcissist. My victims who were doormats found that their self-esteem was increased by my achievements and my accomplishments. Not because they commandeered them for themselves but because they felt that they had been able to contribute to that as a consequence of allowing me to shine, to search, by catering to all of the background needs if you will that allowed me to get on with the important stuff.


However the doormat doesn't acquire the traits of our success at all. What they do is they revel given their empathic nature in our success. Which they feel they’ve been able to help us do because they have catered for the minutiae, the mundane matters. Catering to those things that would otherwise preoccupy our time leaving us to get on with the the shiny special glorious amazing things instead. They are the permanent backroom staff that allows us to shine on the stage.


The doormat has a high tolerance to emotional abuse. The lashing out to heated fury and cold fury from our kind against the doormat causes the doormat to realize that the emotional need of our kind has increased i.e the need for fuel and control. This signals to them that they must leap into action. They have a call of duty and rather than find the emotional abuse debilitating at least at first, they regard it as a useful signal for them to do something in order to cater to the needs of the narcissist to give control, to provide fuel. Although of course they don't realize this is specifically what they are doing. They regard it as being taking steps to assist to be supportive, to listen, and in turn they give the control that we crave and pour the fuel in our direction.


Unfortunately, for the doormat all they are actually doing is allowing a pressure to build up of this repeated emotional abuse. The doormat can tolerate it for longer than a standard empathic victim but then there comes a point where the threshold is reached. The pressure can no longer be sustained and withheld and at that point there is a substantial and serious and damaging effect on the doormat from the least of this pressure they break down.


The doormat feels guilt when catering for their own needs, therefore almost in a masochistic way will place themselves in the firing line. Once again with our kind in order to ease this guilt.


The doormat actually feels undeserving of being loved. They want to be loved for what they do rather than what they are. They regard themselves as fundamentally unworthy of love save when they are carrying out their role.




In terms of the empathic constitution of an individual who is a doormat, they will have a majority and a significant, a very significant majority outcome with regard to codependency as a consequence of their empath detector test. They will also show at the minimum strong martyr more likely moving into majority…

Wow!!! I really appreciate the perspective from the narcissist. I have lived much of my life as a classic "doormat" empath. I'm chuckling right now as I used to laughingly think "do I have the word "doormat" written on my forehead? It is amazing the number of people who will grab an opportunity to elevate themselves just a tad when they sense the opportunity with a doormat. In fact, only yesterday, I got a series of texts from someone that I have traditionally played the doormat for. They wanted to play a mini version of the doormat game.. It's been a long time coming, but even though intellectually, it has become my go-to response over years, I'm just not playing any more.

Very, very insightful.

The other very important point it brings out here, is that the narcissist does not act alone here. The empath in this scenario carries an equal load.

Also, possible..it is not necessary to spend one's life acting this out over and over, of course it must be seen and acknowledged first. I am not talking about the empath part, but the doormat or imbalanced part can be changed with dedication and work.

[RunningDeer]

Do not mirror us. Your mirror will shatter first.

Never Mirror The Narcissist - Here´s Why (12 min)




When you are doing this [mirroring] you are actually continuing to provide us with fuel. So we are winning. You are challenging our assertion of control and therefore we must respond to that to assert control over you. And that risks you being pushed into a form of manipulation.

Mirroring is not in your best interest. It is a continued interaction with the narcissist which brings the devil’s pitchfork against you. You will provide us with fuel. We win. You lose. You will suffer an adverse consequence. We win. You lose. You will increase your emotional thinking. We win. You lose.

It's a zero-sum game and if you try and mirror us. Remember you can't manipulate a manipulator. We are designed to reject that even if you think that you will obtain some kind of victory by wounding us or challenging us. It will only result in a bad outcome for you.

Why? Because we're different from you. We don't have conscience, guilt, remorse. We have no emotional empathy. You are not designed to behave this way. So not only ought you not to behave this way but it is positively unhelpful for your position.

If you do so resist the temptation to mirror, do not listen to those that suggested ought to be done. Instead of mirroring the manipulations that we dole out against you, you are far better served by focusing on:

the establishment and maintenance of no contact
being able to recognize the various manipulations that we deploy
your increased knowledge will reduce the impact of the manipulations upon you.



HG Tudor - Knowing The Narcissist (https://www.youtube.com/c/HGTudorKnowingTheNarcissistUltra/videos)


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[Bill Ryan]

Here's a very interesting and intelligent 18 minute analysis of Alec Baldwin's narcissism (and the trouble it repeatedly gets him into), with many well-presented examples. Baldwin is just a case study, of course, as this is endemic in Hollywood and pop culture in general.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lkd0yi6WusM

The Psychology Today article referenced is this one, which itself is worth reading in full. The article is from 2011... Baldwin has been a narcissist for a long time.


https://psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-narcissism-epidemic/201112/alec-baldwin-its-the-narcissism-again

Alec Baldwin: It's the Narcissism, Again
Is celebrity narcissism adaptive?

[justntime2learn]

Hi all

I want to help and educate someone about borderline personality disorder in the nicest way possible. The person I want to help does not have the disorder and I won't tell her who does because she'll figure it out real quick. Can anyone offer articles, links, videos or life experiences?

Thank you so much :heart:

[meat suit]

Hi all

I want to help and educate someone about borderline personality disorder in the nicest way possible. The person I want to help does not have the disorder and I won't tell her who does because she'll figure it out real quick. Can anyone offer articles, links, videos or life experiences?

Thank you so much :heart:

I have learned everything I know about 'borderline' from Sam Vaknin and Richard Grannon.
have a look at their youtube channels. they often have conversations.
interestingly both are now suggesting that 'borderline' as a definition should be scrapped.

Sam Vaknin
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLadFapyecCYAeuTqc12avA

Richard Grannon
https://www.youtube.com/c/RICHARDGRANNON