Trump - "Illegal" immigration - Sam's view

[Chester]

Some folks may be surprised at what they are about to read (if anyone bothers to). Don't worry, I won't disappoint when I post my views on abortion (upcoming).

But now to the US issue of "illegal" immigration. Why do I write "illegal" in quotes? Certainly anyone who has followed the issue (no matter what side one might find oneself on) is aware of the semantics war between the phrases "Illegal alien" and "undocumented immigrant" yes?

Well, to me the matter is clear. To be in the US without what the US law requires as proper documentation is actually and only... "undocumented." And as for the law in the US, this is very clearly nothing but a civil matter. Let me emphasize - it is not a criminal offense to be in the US without proper, currently valid documentation. It is a civil matter only.

Now there are all sorts of things someone can do to be in the US without proper, currently valid documentation. Most of those would be criminal acts. But to be charged with one of those criminal acts, one must be caught committing them. And for those who may be interested in this issue (if they don't already know), according to this report (http://cmsny.org/publications/jmhs-visa-overstays-border-wall/), over 40% of the entire undocumented population in the US is from visa overstays and that since 2007 the percentage, year by year is well over 50% and in some cases reached 60%.

So if I am not a US citizen or legal resident and I come to the US with a visa and I do not leave before the visa expires, all I am is "undocumented" and this is only a civil offense.

Also, if I am not a US citizen or legal resident and I have somehow entered the US in any other way, though it can be inferred I probably committed a crime, it likely cannot be proven and thus I am only "undocumented" and this is only a civil offense.

So on the basis of everything I noted above, I do not see how the US Federal government can compel state or municipal authorities to hold someone in a jail based on nothing but a request when that request is based on a civil violation.

The only way it seems this could be done is if the law were changed and this would have to be done by the US Congress and upheld in court if the law faced any legal challenges.

OK, so... I have begun my thread regarding the matter and I have only touched on one point in this OP. I have more to come. It would be nice to enter into intelligent dialogue regarding the matter.

[Chester]

As for the current attempt by the US DOJ to compel cooperation from jurisdictions which prefer not to cooperate by withholding Federal grant money, here is a document that appears very well presented and done so by lawyers who seem to know their stuff.

FAQ on Federal Grant Conditions and Cooperation with Immigration Enforcement (https://www.ilrc.org/sites/default/files/resources/fact_sheet_on_usc_1373_and_bja_funding_july_2016.pdf)

The reason I posted this document is that the document supports my own interpretation that it would take an act of Congress (that would need the President to sign into law) to change the situation from an enforcement standpoint.

Of course, all I have posted so far is a current "snapshot" of this particular facet of the overall "immigration issue" the US is facing. In other words, the issue is multi-faceted but in addition to this, the issue has evolved over decades.

It is my opinion that the biggest mistake being made by just about everyone is that no one seems to be looking at each and every facet of the issue while also looking equally at how we got here now... and then doing this in a way that ties it all together into a whole where a big picture set of goals can be established as to how to get control of the matter and set forth a comprehensive plan going forward... a plan that details each and every step needed to achieve these goals.

[TargeT]

The reason I posted this document is that the document supports my own interpretation that it would take an act of Congress (that would need the President to sign into law) to change the situation from an enforcement standpoint.
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I'm sure an executive order could be passed to do the same (and maybe finally executive orders will get stricken down and we can roll back some of the poison done by previous administrations, and current).

[Chester]

The reason I posted this document is that the document supports my own interpretation that it would take an act of Congress (that would need the President to sign into law) to change the situation from an enforcement standpoint.
.

I'm sure an executive order could be passed to do the same (and maybe finally executive orders will get stricken down and we can roll back some of the poison done by previous administrations, and current).

Yet note that what we have seen is that an Executive Order by Donald Trump is far more likely to get declared illegal (citing arguments that the US Constitution is being violated) by a single Federal judge which results in a restraint being placed on execution of the EO whereas an act of Congress signed into law is far less likely to experience a court challenge in part because Congress makes the law but more to the point that the lawmaker is not Donald Trump. It is my opinion that these Federal judges feel emboldened that they are blocking a Trump EO because... it is Donald Trump doing it. Trump hatred is at a level few ever imagined possible. I should not stray towards commenting on my opinion of why and so I won't.

Now their next level of "creative interpretation" of the Constitution could be justified to the 26% or so that it blocks the will of the "evil Republicans" but this is far riskier because of the upcoming elections in 2018 ass well as beyond. The senate is already being played so that the Republican majority will likely increase by three to five seats. If they get an eight seat swing, it's "ballgame over" for the Dems... as long as the Republicans maintain a decent majority in the House too.

[Chester]

Notice all the rollbacks of laws enacted by Congress under Obama... what 13 so far? I think they call this "Congressional review" utilizing the Congressional Review Act. Also all the rollbacks of so many of Obama's EOs. Far more than any other president in recent memory and perhaps in the history of the US.

[DNA]

My view on the current immigration situation is as follows.


The elite want their New World Order, which is a One World Order, a single government that rules the entire world.
The biggest obstacle to this according to Dr. John Coleman is the American middle class. So the American middle class has been under attack and still is.
The plan with the current Muslim situation is this.
My heart truly goes out to the people of Syria, Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan and the US should have never set foot in those countries much less dropped bombs on them and or instilled regime changes.
But the fact remains that the US did these things.
And the people from these countries hate the USA and every citizen who lives here, and I empathize with them and I'm so sorry for what the USA has done to them.
But right now, George Soros and the elite who want a New World Order, they want these refugees to come into the United States and help bring down the USA from within.
They also want this for Europe.
Billy Meier stated back in 1975 that Europe would burn from within due to Muslim extremism.
I wish Billy Meier would have also mentioned it was due to the globalists feigning humanitarianism so as to move troops into countries to tear them apart from within, but hey he still told us quite a bit.

[Chester]

Regarding DNA's post #6 above (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?97318-Trump-Illegal-immigration-Sam-s-view&p=1148687&viewfull=1#post1148687)...

One of my operational protocols is that I try my best not to represent any opinion I might hold as unequivocal fact. I am glad that DNA stated his opinion to be "his view." Just for the record, based on all my research and based on my perceived rise in "having a clue," I make odds pretty good that much if not all of what DNA suggests is likely true.

This view is also what I call, "a helicopter view." Seeing the big picture of the big goal(s) from way up above. It is my own opinion that exploring our world from this angle could be quite useful. It is also my opinion that for someone like me to do anything about any of it (if anything can be done) would need to start from the ground up because I am a bottom dweller from the perspective of the world's elite. I am a nobody who, if not for the words I write on this forum, am most likely invisible to the elite.

So I feel compelled to create a thread such as this from the position that I could do something about it just by sharing my views with others such that if there be any validity to my views and others embrace some of them (or much of them) then perhaps the odds of change (for the better) are raised... of course knowing that what I might think is "better" is still nothing but a subjective opinion.

I hope we can explore this issue in this thread in a way that perhaps practical solutions could also be explored.

[Desire]

Thanks for your well thought out statement DNA and your courage

[Chester]

Just an observation -

Interesting that this thread has sat all day without anyone offering any solutions. Opinions as to why things are as they are... but no one has anything to suggest in the way of any solution(s). I guess exploring solutions isn't sexy enough. Sad that.

[Helene West]

Sam

You're an optimist. You want to talk rule of law and enforcement of laws, etc. You have to have people of integrity to do that. It's over - O V E R.

I just came back from a store and noted the headlines of one of my city's daily hate newspapers. They were ecstatic that some judge overruled trump's withholding of funds to uncooperative cities.

My view is similar to DNA's larger picture. My difference with how DNA wrote above is when he states the "USA" went into the middle east and did all the damage, etc.etc. I'm american and I didn't authorize this. Did anyone reading this authorize or back these horrors?
If we don't start differentiating in our thinking, speaking and discussing, that is, being careful how we name things, discussion is meaningless. We need to stop saying things like America did this or that, the USA did this or that when no one in the citizenry is consulted about anything. DNA has stated his sympathy for the refugees because the 'USA' has disrupted the lives of the middle easterners. I substitute 'USA' with 'ruling class'. I Refuse Culpability of their actions. And don't tell me about american citizen culpability because our young are in the military; according to political analyst Craig B. Hulet, half our enlisted army is mexican and if ordinary folks are desperate for money they will join the military, that is human not political.

The purpose of modern immigration is to dilute and disempower the white race in every white or formerly white country.

The globalists are white but they do not practice 'diversity' or identify with whites outside of their class. They preach and mandate diversity to us peasants but they marry only their own class - that is what a ruling class does.

The judges knocking down trump's attempt to control immigration know it will cause chaos and destroy american working and middle class - THEY DON'T CARE, they are doing their job serving their/our masters. They will ignore, bypass, overrule, use accusations of racism, etc Whether threatened or well remunerated the judges will do what they are told.

They want their one world government and though they give lip service to diversity it is only a means to an end of one standardized race of obedient sheep. With AI and robotic & digital automation they will need those outside their class less and less for labor and maintaining structures like they did in past centuries. So what will they want us for? some minimal labor, sex exploitation, ritual sacrifice & cannibalism, entertainment...

The ruling class's pawns, like Macron in France, are even publicly using the term 'globalism' to mean something good and beneficial. They have co-opted the term and will make globalists sound positive.

Talk of immigration from some logical or legal standpoint is fruitless. We are discussing, They are laughing...

[Praxis]

The purpose of modern immigration is to dilute and disempower the white race in every white or formerly white country.

Just wow.

You might need to ponder what it means to be American.
Here is some help

New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

America is an idea, not a piece of land. It is the ideas of liberty freedom and justice FOR ALL. Sam, if you want solutions, it is standing right in front of you. I see one simple test. Either you believe in those ideals and are welcomed freely into our country, or you leave. And currently, many so called americans should be shown the door as they dont actually share american values. Lady liberty is weeping . . .

[TargeT]

The purpose of modern immigration is to dilute and disempower the white race in every white or formerly white country.

Just wow.

You might need to ponder what it means to be American.

America is an idea, not a piece of land. It is the ideas of liberty freedom and justice FOR ALL. Sam, if you want solutions, it is standing right in front of you. I see one simple test. Either you believe in those ideals and are welcomed freely into our country, or you leave. And currently, many so called americans should be shown the door as they dont actually share american values. Lady liberty is weeping . . .

The statue of liberty is on Elise island, Ellis island which eventually became more famous for deportations, than immigration.. (http://www.history.com/news/9-things-you-may-not-know-about-ellis-island)

It sounds like you believe revisionist history far too much ;)

All is not as it seems, we have had controlled immigration for a LONG time.. Ellis island only let 12million (http://www.history.com/news/9-things-you-may-not-know-about-ellis-island) in during it's entire (62 year) operation. (https://www.nps.gov/elis/faqs.htm)

it's estimated that 1.2 million people illegally imigrate annually (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States)...


the US was never a place for all, it was a place to rise a large working class, milk it for all it's worth, then toss the husk aside and move onto china and do the same thing.

Helene isn't far from the truth.

[Helene West]

The purpose of modern immigration is to dilute and disempower the white race in every white or formerly white country.

Just wow.

You might need to ponder what it means to be American.
Here is some help

New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

America is an idea, not a piece of land. It is the ideas of liberty freedom and justice FOR ALL. Sam, if you want solutions, it is standing right in front of you. I see one simple test. Either you believe in those ideals and are welcomed freely into our country, or you leave. And currently, many so called americans should be shown the door as they dont actually share american values. Lady liberty is weeping . . .

Thanks at least for the 'wow'.
Nice poem but it is irrelevant today.
Sorry you're not seeing the entire picture. Search Pres Theodore Roosevelt's speeches to European immigrants. They were treated in a much more no-nonsense way than the sanctuary city deception of today. They were told point blank - you learn English, you become american, we don't cater to you, you become one of us. You can even find his speeches on the dangers of 'hyphenated americans'. He was almost psychic on that count. Today the Tower of Babel is what is encouraged, scores of different communities are encouraged, tribalism is encouraged and that is for the reason of division and destruction.
Forced, contrived, artificial, immigration is only part of an overall plan. I understand you're seeing from the point of view of 'lady Liberty', compassion and all that good stuff. I wish it was about that...I really do. At least you didn't call me a racist, so I'll thank you for that.
The freemason's gift, what you call Lady Liberty or the Roman goddess Libertas from the Babylonian Ishtar is said by some ancient historians to be - “Mother of the Harlots and Abominations of the Earth”. Another joke of the globalists.

[Chester]

So I take it (so far) that seeking solutions is a waste of time and therefore our fate is cast in stone.

Perhaps your right.

I see that today... exactly 5 years from the day I had the most amazing experience of my life... the day I discovered the Horus-Ra thread and realized the voice in my head wasn't God after all... but likely some mind parasite, where I then experienced an instant change, a flushing of the deep despair I had lived solidly for the prior three months... a true, deep dark night of the soul that... this very "internet space" through which I discovered a reason to live again, is now filled with nothing but giver-uppers?

I really do hope not but I also know I am naive enough to believe otherwise despite so much of what I have been reading on PA... pretty much everyone's opinion "we are toast"... sad... really sad.

[Helene West]

So I take it (so far) that seeking solutions is a waste of time and therefore our fate is cast in stone.

Perhaps your right.

I see that today... exactly 5 years from the day I had the most amazing experience of my life... the day I discovered the Horus-Ra thread and realized the voice in my head wasn't God after all... but likely some mind parasite, where I then experienced an instant change, a flushing of the deep despair I had lived solidly for the prior three months... a true, deep dark night of the soul that... this very "internet space" through which I discovered a reason to live again, is now filled with nothing but giver-uppers?

I really do hope not but I also know I am naive enough to believe otherwise despite so much of what I have been reading on PA... pretty much everyone's opinion "we are toast"... sad... really sad.

Sorry Sam. Particularly since the Syria bombing has shown that Trump is a hostage to the globalists and the blatant attack on free speech is getting worse with looking to arrest Assange I'm more down and distant myself. I won't be surprised that so-called hate speech laws will follow soon to really prevent dissent against the contrived immigration mandate.

The situation doesn't have to be 'cast in stone' as you put it. But the amount of people, effort, organization and Courage it would take to push back the globalist agenda is something most people just won't rise to. The people who voted for trump were swallowing crap for more than a decade and all they did was wait to go to the dubious voting polls. If most believe all they have to do is give one hour every four or eight years, then what do you think is in store? In no way is that paltry action enough to address what is happening.
(the Horus-Ra thread you mentioned sounds interesting!)

[TargeT]

pretty much everyone's opinion "we are toast"... sad... really sad.

My opinion on solutions is far out side the thrust of this thread. On this one myopic topic (interestingly fun words to say together) I do feel that immigration is being encouraged negatively and that vastly different cultures shouldn't be forced (or enticed) to mix.


My solution on immigration is simple: don't promote "oil and water" cultures to mix, we have so many historical and current examples of how this fails.... why continue?

This is mostly in reference to Bible followers vs Koran followers, but honestly can be applied to many groups.

[Praxis]

Helene you just hoisted yourself with your own petard.

First, I highly recommend that you give a listen to two podcasts: the Hardcore History podcast by Dan Carlin called American Peril and History on Fire with Danielle Bolelli. The former talks about from the spanish american war forward and its effect on American foreign policy, which Teddy falls smack in the middle of and the latter actually has a three part series about Teddy himself. Both are supremely enjoyable and pretty even handed. Before the latter, I had a fairly negative view of Teddy but after I find him to be interesting character who of course was limited by his time and place. (all of both of those podcasts are excellent btw and if you like it should listen to others especially the HH about the mongol empire called the Wrath of the Khans).

I actually agree with Teddy about hyphenated americans. He was talking about split loyalty but I take it a step further and deal with the ideals that come along with being american, mainly those stated in the bill of rights and the Declaration of independence. If you dont believe everyone has the right to free speech, then you are not american. If you do not believe in the 4th amendment right to not be searched or seized, you are not american. If you do not believe that you have a right to bear arms against oppression, institutional or individual, then you are not american. Do you see what I mean by this? Being american is not a birthright or a language, it is an ideology. Anybody who expresses these ideals to me is american, regardless of nationality. Some of use were just lucky enough to have been born in the US which happens to espouse and enshrine the ideology in the laws of the land. WHat teddy wanted people to do was to come here and embrace that ideology. If they couldnt do that, then he didnt want them to come and I agree. If you want to come to america and change it to suit you, then you are in the wrong. But if you go there to embrace the ideals of the Bill of rights and Declaration, then I say we should welcome all brothers and sisters in arms. (this doesnt mean you should work to change the de facto US just not trying to drastically alter the De jure US, but even then the changes to the Constitution sometimes is necessary and good like the 3/5s nonsense)

Terrorism is scary because the people who do it are believers. Action based on belief is potent. If you have split belief like hyphenated american, then your action is compromised.

Teddy was also progressive in many ways such as inviting a Black person to the White House. When he had Booker T Washington over, many people claimed it was the end of the world and an attack on the White Purity/ white culture of the country. He was also fairly progressive on women rights, which again was deplored as an attack on the culture of america at the time.

But then again, he also espoused jingoism to the highest degree, although from what I am sure he found to be the best of intentions, when advocating for cuban and phillipean colonial rule.


Just because our actions dont match our ideology, doesnt mean our ideology is irrelevant. It means our actions need to be changed.


I find it telling that you think the sentiment of that poem is irrelevant at this time.



Finally, I would challenge you to move to Japan or China and live for a while and then talk about learning the local language. Yes I agree that immigrants should do it, which I have volunteered to teach English to immigrants before have you?, but it is easier said than done, especially if you have family to provide for. Do you have any idea what it is like to live in a place where you have a hard time communicating with people? IM not talking vacation, im talking living, 6 months or more in a place?

[Helene West]

Helene you just hoisted yourself with your own petard.

First, I highly recommend that you give a listen to two podcasts: the Hardcore History podcast by Dan Carlin called American Peril and History on Fire with Danielle Bolelli. The former talks about from the spanish american war forward and its effect on American foreign policy, which Teddy falls smack in the middle of and the latter actually has a three part series about Teddy himself. Both are supremely enjoyable and pretty even handed. Before the latter, I had a fairly negative view of Teddy but after I find him to be interesting character who of course was limited by his time and place. (all of both of those podcasts are excellent btw and if you like it should listen to others especially the HH about the mongol empire called the Wrath of the Khans).

I actually agree with Teddy about hyphenated americans. He was talking about split loyalty but I take it a step further and deal with the ideals that come along with being american, mainly those stated in the bill of rights and the Declaration of independence. If you dont believe everyone has the right to free speech, then you are not american. If you do not believe in the 4th amendment right to not be searched or seized, you are not american. If you do not believe that you have a right to bear arms against oppression, institutional or individual, then you are not american. Do you see what I mean by this? Being american is not a birthright or a language, it is an ideology. Anybody who expresses these ideals to me is american, regardless of nationality. Some of use were just lucky enough to have been born in the US which happens to espouse and enshrine the ideology in the laws of the land. WHat teddy wanted people to do was to come here and embrace that ideology. If they couldnt do that, then he didnt want them to come and I agree. If you want to come to america and change it to suit you, then you are in the wrong. But if you go there to embrace the ideals of the Bill of rights and Declaration, then I say we should welcome all brothers and sisters in arms. (this doesnt mean you should work to change the de facto US just not trying to drastically alter the De jure US, but even then the changes to the Constitution sometimes is necessary and good like the 3/5s nonsense)

Terrorism is scary because the people who do it are believers. Action based on belief is potent. If you have split belief like hyphenated american, then your action is compromised.

Teddy was also progressive in many ways such as inviting a Black person to the White House. When he had Booker T Washington over, many people claimed it was the end of the world and an attack on the White Purity/ white culture of the country. He was also fairly progressive on women rights, which again was deplored as an attack on the culture of america at the time.

But then again, he also espoused jingoism to the highest degree, although from what I am sure he found to be the best of intentions, when advocating for cuban and phillipean colonial rule.


Just because our actions dont match our ideology, doesnt mean our ideology is irrelevant. It means our actions need to be changed.


I find it telling that you think the sentiment of that poem is irrelevant at this time.



Finally, I would challenge you to move to Japan or China and live for a while and then talk about learning the local language. Yes I agree that immigrants should do it, which I have volunteered to teach English to immigrants before have you?, but it is easier said than done, especially if you have family to provide for. Do you have any idea what it is like to live in a place where you have a hard time communicating with people? IM not talking vacation, im talking living, 6 months or more in a place?

i should move to a different country in order to get your point? lol You neither see nor understand what I'm saying and that's fine. There's much I can say but we're not going to convince each other of anything. My e.g. of 'Teddy' was a small point. All you see is the poor immigrant stance, fine. You may want to listen more to Red Ice Radio out of Sweden and hear how europeans are enjoying the enforced BS immigration and their cultural genocide. Enjoy the host while it still has some life in it.

[Desire]

9of clubs
Of course you don't have to answer this but to me it sounds as though you may not be a US citizen.. But are coming from an "outsider" point of view.. As you say being American is a state of mind. I have heard that used by non citizens to justify their right to remain. Unfortunately everyone can not live here. Finding a way to make the home country more desirable is an alterative. But I'm aware that is:facepalm: very hard since many of us who live here would like to see positive changes also:heart:

[Praxis]

I noted the hostility I felt with out interactions so this is my way of trying to stop that in its tracks and be constructive. I apologize for the sass earlier.


. . .

My view is similar to DNA's larger picture. My difference with how DNA wrote above is when he states the "USA" went into the middle east and did all the damage, etc.etc. I'm american and I didn't authorize this. Did anyone reading this authorize or back these horrors?
If we don't start differentiating in our thinking, speaking and discussing, that is, being careful how we name things, discussion is meaningless. We need to stop saying things like America did this or that, the USA did this or that when no one in the citizenry is consulted about anything. DNA has stated his sympathy for the refugees because the 'USA' has disrupted the lives of the middle easterners. I substitute 'USA' with 'ruling class'. I Refuse Culpability of their actions. And don't tell me about american citizen culpability because our young are in the military; according to political analyst Craig B. Hulet, half our enlisted army is mexican and if ordinary folks are desperate for money they will join the military, that is human not political.

I am American and this means you like me are still responsible for the system. Yes it has been hijacked by a group or groups that have been labelled many things(illuminati, NWO, Cabal, Khazarian mafia, etc.) and that is what really sucks. They do not control everything and are not the masters of all things. They are just adept at, due to practice, power, and money, organizing and directing chaos. This beautiful thing called america, blemishes and all, has been hijacked. I still feel we are responsible the leviathan we call the US even if its brain is currently operated by the aforementioned group(s). You are culpable as you pay taxes and havent renounced citizenship. You dont go to prison for tax evasion which means you are owned by the gov, that is what income tax really is. This is the cold hard truth we have to face as Americans. When there were kings deciding, then yes you could claim no culpability. However, in a representative democracy, you can not deny your part however small. Even if you didnt vote for Bush, Obama, or now the current POTUS, then you are still responsible to a slight degree. I personally think you have blood on your hands directly if you voted for any of those three, also Clinton, Reagan, Nixon, and Johnson. Even if you didnt and voted Cynthia McKinney, Ron Paul, Kuccinich like I chose to do, we still have culpability and blood on our hands, just a matter of how much. If you dont want any burden, renounce your citizenship. This is the burden we carry as Americans.





The purpose of modern immigration is to dilute and disempower the white race in every white or formerly white country.

The globalists are white but they do not practice 'diversity' or identify with whites outside of their class. They preach and mandate diversity to us peasants but they marry only their own class - that is what a ruling class does.

I agree, because they want to keep their secrets in the family, and I think this connects to ancients kings of Sumeria and that kind of thing. This is why goode is compelling because I think the atlantis/antartica stuff might have some truth and our history is quite different from is often given. However, I think you do yourself a disservice by framing the conversation in this manner of White culture or White power being diluted. It is easy and cheap to label racist and then dismiss you entirely. I do think they are trying to dilute something and that is what I was talking about earlier with the bill of rights and constitution. And what I like about immigration is we should stand for something and if attract like minded people, Welcome. These are brothers and sisters in arms. If they believe in the American Ideals and Dream then we should be happy to have another person in the religion of America, no not christianity but rather the religion that sings of freedom justice and equality for all. I hope you share my love of what america is supposed to be, not what it currently is because of the previous paragraphs.





The judges knocking down trump's attempt to control immigration know it will cause chaos and destroy american working and middle class - THEY DON'T CARE, they are doing their job serving their/our masters. They will ignore, bypass, overrule, use accusations of racism, etc Whether threatened or well remunerated the judges will do what they are told.


I wonder if they are actually trying to defend my previous paragraphs about the ideals of america and wanting people who share them to come here and be safe from oppression. Maybe I am wrong on that score but I want to hope that most people are good and want what is best for all. Im optimistic I guess. But you sound like you support the current President yet he is drone striking people just like the previous. He is still generally sailing the ship in the same direction it was already going. Yes the details are different, but the topic of the conversation has remained the same over the last six or seven admins. I dont think the POTUS care about you or I any more than any of the last ones.



They want their one world government and though they give lip service to diversity it is only a means to an end of one standardized race of obedient sheep. With AI and robotic & digital automation they will need those outside their class less and less for labor and maintaining structures like they did in past centuries. So what will they want us for? some minimal labor, sex exploitation, ritual sacrifice & cannibalism, entertainment...

Completely Agree. What do? Which is what I think Sam is really wanting here.




The ruling class's pawns, like Macron in France, are even publicly using the term 'globalism' to mean something good and beneficial. They have co-opted the term and will make globalists sound positive.

Talk of immigration from some logical or legal standpoint is fruitless. We are discussing, They are laughing...

See here is the rub, I believe in a one world organization for humanity. While I disagree about how it should be done, I think humans are going to need some organization, lets call it Star Fleet, that helps coordinate the efforts of all free people on the planet, not by force but voluntarily. A voluntary society if you will. I think America should conquer the world but not with weapons but rather Ideas. What if tomorrow all of canada realized how BOSS the united states IDEAL system is and the petition to join the US basically becoming the next Few states. I would love that. Canadians are awesome and they hold many similar values as Americans. Wouldnt you agree? Now why not carry that onto every other country, keeping in mind that they are joining us and bring with them a unique background to cherish and celebrate that adds to the mosiac of american life but not to change the fundamental system(like making sharia or or communist/socialist or whatever the current zeitgeist is).

America should be the first ideological Empire where people voluntarily join instead of being forced. I know it didnt start this way, but what if we worked together to make this country so awesome again that everyone was begging to join. That is what POTUS tapped into.


The resource management of this system needs to happen and we need to be worried about space events. We could be hit by a rock tomorrow. I not worried about aliens right now. Literally we could have extinction event tomorrow from the sky that we have no idea about. I think as humans we need to transcend nationalism and come together to work for all of our futures. This is why America is an ideology not a piece of a land or a birthright to me. That is why I want to fight to keep that piece of land matching the idea.



I know Im talking about a perfect world and situation but ithink that is the first part of the problem. We need to come together and specifically state which future we would like to see and then work on how to get there. Sorry Helene for being confrontational . Im passionate and care very much about people and the world. It cause me to be emotional and aggressive. Forgive me.

[abmqa]

]If we don't start differentiating in our thinking, speaking and discussing, that is, being careful how we name things, discussion is meaningless.

You are absolutely correct with this statement


The purpose of modern immigration is to dilute and disempower the white race in every white or formerly white country.


The globalists are white but they do not practice 'diversity' or identify with whites outside of their class. They preach and mandate diversity to us peasants but they marry only their own class - that is what a ruling class does.

Your comments started me thinking. In particular where you say the "white race" and "white country".

It made me wonder what does it mean to be "White"? But not only white in a "white society" but the social impacts that affect all of the people living in a "white country" or society.

The following is a perspective from a "white" person.

I'd be very interested in hearing your views.

By Robin DiAngelo

I AM white. I have spent years studying what it means to be white in a society that proclaims race meaningless, yet is deeply divided by race. This is what I have learned: Any white person living in the United States will develop opinions about race simply by swimming in the water of our culture.

But mainstream sources — schools, textbooks, media and anecdotal evidence — don’t provide us with the multiple perspectives we need. Yes, we will develop strong emotionally laden opinions, but they will not be informed opinions. Our socialization renders us racially illiterate.

This illiteracy was evident in the debate about the Seattle Gilbert & Sullivan Society production of “The Mikado” and its casting of non-Asian actors in 40 Japanese roles.

To understand the crux of white racial illiteracy illustrated by the debate, consider a typical computer user. The user is proficient and knows all the basics — Word, email, spreadsheets. But when the user has a technical problem and tries to explain it to the IT department, communication breaks down. The user gets defensive, feeling talked down to by tech support. Tech support gets frustrated because the user doesn’t know how computers actually work and can’t comprehend its instructions.

Like a nontechnical user trying to understand a technical problem, our racial illiteracy limits our ability to have meaningful conversations about race.

Mainstream dictionary definitions reduce racism to racial prejudice and the personal actions that result. But this definition does little to explain how racial hierarchies are consistently reproduced.

Social scientists define racism as a multidimensional, highly adaptive system — a system that ensures an unequal distribution of resources among racial groups. The group that controls the institutions controls the distribution and embeds its racial bias into the fabric of society.

In the U.S., while individual whites might be against racism, they still benefit from their group’s control. Yes, an individual person of color can sit at the tables of power, but the overwhelming majority of decision-makers will be white. Yes, white people can have problems and face barriers, but systematic racism won’t be one of them.

This distinction — between individual prejudice and a system of unequal institutionalized racial power — is fundamental. One cannot understand how racism functions in the U.S. today if one ignores group power relations.

While the following do not apply to every white person, they are well-documented white patterns and beliefs that make it difficult for white people to understand racism as a system:

• Segregation: Most whites live, grow, play, learn, love, work and die primarily in racial segregation. Yet, our society does not teach us to see this as a loss. Pause for a moment and consider the magnitude of this message: We lose nothing of value by not having cross-racial relationships. In fact, the whiter our schools and neighborhoods are, the more likely they are to be seen as “good.” This is an example of the relentless messages of white superiority that circulate all around us, shaping our identities and perspectives.

• Individualism: Whites are taught to see themselves as individuals, rather than as part of a racial group. It follows that we are racially objective and thus can represent the universal human experience, while people of color can only represent their race. Seeing ourselves as unracialized individuals, we take umbrage when generalizations are made about us as a group. This enables us to ignore systemic racial patterns.

• Focus on intentions over impact: We are taught that racism must be intentional and that only bad people commit it. Thus a common white reasoning in cross-racial conflicts is that as long as we are good people and didn’t intend to perpetuate racism, then our actions don’t count as racism. But racism doesn’t depend on conscious intent. In fact, much of racism is unconscious. Further, when we focus on intent we are essentially saying that the impact of our behavior on others is irrelevant.

• White fragility: In a white dominant society, challenges to a white worldview are uncommon. The racial status quo is comfortable for us. We haven’t had to develop the skills, perspectives, or humility that would help us engage constructively. As a result, we have very little tolerance for racial discomfort and respond poorly.

Putting this all together, you get the outcomes we see in “The Mikado” controversy.

When actors audition, they are most often judged by white people, using white standards for roles written by white writers and intended for white audiences. The outcomes of a specific audition are the cumulative result of this historic control.

Precisely because the system reflects white interests and worldview, white people will not see any of this in racial terms. They are confident that we can represent all of humanity — if no Asian actors apply, we don’t question casting efforts.

Because the egregious depictions of Asians in the opera are not intended as racist (and because so many whites enjoy these depictions), the racist impact is denied. When racism is pointed out, umbrage ensues.

The understanding of racism as a social system of unequal power is generally termed antiracism. An antiracism framework will help any white person become more racially literate and navigate most any racial conflict. We can begin by acknowledging ourselves as having a particular and necessarily limited perspective on race. That acknowledgment engenders humility rather than certitude.

Thinking in terms of structures and patterns, not individual acts or good and bad people, is foundational. Putting ourselves in situations that challenge and stretch our racial worldviews, while uncomfortable, builds our racial stamina.

Finally, we need to focus on impact rather than intent. On Aug. 18, the Seattle Repertory Theatre and the City of Seattle are holding a community dialogue about “The Mikado.” This is a great opportunity for whites to practice these skills.

Let me be clear. I don’t see myself or other whites as bad. Racism is a system that we did not create, but it’s one that we did inherit. We must take responsibility to see and challenge it both within and around us. The first step? Have some humility and listen.

Robin DiAngelo is an associate professor of education at Westfield State University in Massachusetts. She teaches and writes extensively on whiteness. Her latest book is “What Does it Mean to Be White? Developing White Racial Literacy.

Sorry about the misaligned quotes. I'm such a noob to this editing system

[TargeT]

the white guilt is thick with that one... haha


Robin DiAngelo is an associate professor of education at Westfield State University in Massachusetts. She teaches and writes extensively on whiteness

What the hell have our schools come to? This is just as bad as the rampant victim-ism taught in Israeli schools. (http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.587252)

[Desire]

The schools are teaching the NWO immigration, inclusion agenda on us.. but so many people are sleeping they just don't see that they are being manipulated. :confused:

[Sierra]

Our socialization renders us racially illiterate.

Have you seen Sam's thread on baby's exposure to a diversity of faces? It seems to nip racism in the bud (literally a baby bud, lol.)
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?97164-Racial-bias-begins-in-infancy-new-insight-on-cause&p=1146562&viewfull=1#post1146562


Social scientists define racism as a multidimensional, highly adaptive system — a system that ensures an unequal distribution of resources among racial groups. The group that controls the institutions controls the distribution and embeds its racial bias into the fabric of society.

Bingo. That is why it is SO important to clean up the institutions first, i.e remove Confederate flag from state government buildings, take down statues of Confederate "heroes", from public squares etc. Glacially slow, but progress *is* being made, usually when something dreadful happens (children being gunned down in church a lá Dylann Roof (the latest American mass murderer and white supremacist).

[AutumnW]

The managerial class and business owners LOVE the cheap labor. Let the Mexicans who work their asses off stay and deport people who hire them and then want to legislate them out of the country.

[Sierra]

The managerial class and business owners LOVE the cheap labor. Let the Mexicans who work their asses off stay and deport people who hire them and then want to legislate them out of the country.

Indeed, schizophrenic behavior anyone?

A few years ago, Arizona got nasty with their farm workers. Next year, crops rotted in the fields. You'd a thunk it would be obvious their behavior would hit them where it hurts.

And most people (on the American US side) DON'T want the wall Trump is so hot to build to the tune of billions of dollars, that could be used to rebuild our infrastructure. (Neither do the herds that migrate across the border. But hey, we don't care about our fauna these days.)

[TargeT]

And most people (on the American US side) DON'T want the wall Trump is so hot to build to the tune of billions of dollars, that could be used to rebuild our infrastructure. (Neither do the herds that migrate across the border. But hey, we don't care about our fauna these days.)

Important side note:

Did you know that 15 billion dollars is ~0.375% of the annual federal budget (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget)?

[Sierra]

Very unimportant side note.

15 billion is not the actual amount needed to build a wall. The amount whatever it is, can be used to do good, not evil.

Crops still rotted in the fields, and as I said, the current fascist regime don't care about our fauna.

Really? You are still going to quote me after (your unseemly barrage) I asked you to leave me alone?

Stay away from me Target, with your clearly biased alternative facts.

Stay away from me as you said you would in your PM to me.

[abmqa]

Our socialization renders us racially illiterate.

Have you seen Sam's thread on baby's exposure to a diversity of faces? It seems to nip racism in the bud (literally a baby bud, lol.)
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?97164-Racial-bias-begins-in-infancy-new-insight-on-cause&p=1146562&viewfull=1#post1146562


Social scientists define racism as a multidimensional, highly adaptive system — a system that ensures an unequal distribution of resources among racial groups. The group that controls the institutions controls the distribution and embeds its racial bias into the fabric of society.

Bingo. That is why it is SO important to clean up the institutions first, i.e remove Confederate flag from state government buildings, take down statues of Confederate "heroes", from public squares etc. Glacially slow, but progress *is* being made, usually when something dreadful happens (children being gunned down in church a lá Dylann Roof (the latest American mass murderer and white supremacist).

Sierra - I think that you are correct. Please see the video below that addresses exactly what you are referring to.

cOQwnvJwilA

[abmqa]

the white guilt is thick with that one... haha


Robin DiAngelo is an associate professor of education at Westfield State University in Massachusetts. She teaches and writes extensively on whiteness

What the hell have our schools come to? This is just as bad as the rampant victim-ism taught in Israeli schools. (http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.587252)


Target - I'm not sure that I agree with your assessment.

Firstly, the link that you have provided requires a subscription in order to read the article :(, therefore I am unable to respond to your attempt to draw an analogy, if that was your intent.

Secondly, your first comment is extremely lacking in substance. I have seen you post intelligently and constructively in many, many posts here at PA and am surprised and disappointed by your failure to cogently address at least one of the many points made by Robin DiAngelo.

I do find it telling that your post fit in the category listed by Robin DiAngelo as follows:

"White fragility: In a white dominant society, challenges to a white worldview are uncommon. The racial status quo is comfortable for us. We haven’t had to develop the skills, perspectives, or humility that would help us engage constructively. As a result, we have very little tolerance for racial discomfort and respond poorly."

Lastly, though you might find it humorous, I See Nothing Funny About Systematic Racism.

[marique3652]

The purpose of modern immigration is to dilute and disempower the white race in every white or formerly white country.

Just wow.

You might need to ponder what it means to be American.
Here is some help

New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

America is an idea, not a piece of land. It is the ideas of liberty freedom and justice FOR ALL. Sam, if you want solutions, it is standing right in front of you. I see one simple test. Either you believe in those ideals and are welcomed freely into our country, or you leave. And currently, many so called americans should be shown the door as they dont actually share american values. Lady liberty is weeping . . .

I agree up to a point, but having common sense to averting danger is also prudent too.

[Dennis Leahy]

The purpose of modern immigration is to dilute and disempower the white race in every white or formerly white country.

Just wow.

You might need to ponder what it means to be American.
Here is some help

New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

America is an idea, not a piece of land. It is the ideas of liberty freedom and justice FOR ALL. Sam, if you want solutions, it is standing right in front of you. I see one simple test. Either you believe in those ideals and are welcomed freely into our country, or you leave. And currently, many so called americans should be shown the door as they dont actually share american values. Lady liberty is weeping . . .

I agree up to a point that America should take in the poor, the homeless, the tempest tossed. However are we as a whole supposed to welcome people who hate us, are jealous, and want to destroy this country and take it over, to rape our women, cut off our daughter's clitorises, rape our children, beat our women, stone them and behead them or kill family members if they wish because they worship a murderous, bloodthirsty pedophile who advocated that anyone that does not believe in allah should be killed? As a freedom loving American I welcome immigrants but do not welcome people who wish us harm, and I am sorry if that makes me a bad person. Would you want a male Muslim babysitting for your children, and would you trust them alone with your daughters and wives. If the answer is no then that is because it is unwise to invite someone whom believes in violence and rape into your home. I just call that common sense. Would you put your child in a room with many poisonous snakes and some snakes that are not, would you risk it that they may get bitten by a poisonous snake. Just asking. Now I am sure you think me a bad American, but welcoming concept sometimes has to use some reasoning too. Muslims as a whole do not want to assimilate, they want to take over our country. I for one want a future for my granddaughter where she does not have to live in fear. I for one do not want to see life for women like back into the dark ages where they are just objects for a man's pleasure. I for one do not want to have to stay inside to avoid being raped or mugged or killed. Read the other day that some mayor in Sweden told the women to just get used to staying inside, and not going to public places as they may get raped or killed or both, and that they just should get used to it. I do not want that for America, but if you collectively do, then I guess I am a horrible person, a Muslimophobe. Sorry for the ramble but it makes me feel good to get it out, lol.

Sounds like FOX news. And racist fearmongering.

Here's a quick self-test:

All women are __________. <--- fill-in the correct word.




.




.




.




OK, what was the correct word?

The only possible correct answers are "unique" or "different."

Get it? (All Blacks are ______. All left-handed people are _______. All Muslims are ______. All Christians are ______.)

You are taking an enormous group of individuals, and based on a single factor, you are pre-judging the entire group (as having the worst behavior possible.) This is prejudice. This is bigotry.

Are you a Christian? If you are a Christian woman, you could be stoned to death in the town square for speaking on the sabbath without a male's permission and for displeasing God by wearing fabric woven of more than one fiber. If you really piss him off (note I said "him" - the God of Christianity clearly identifies as a man), you might cause a flood and wipe us all out, so watch it!

(You have lived your entire life right surrounded by people that are members of one of the three most violent religions - the Abrahamic religions. Stop being so scared.)

This crap doesn't belong on Project Avalon. It is divisive, prejudicial, alarmist, fear-mongering, playing into the hands of the Controllers that want the latest boogeymen, Muslims, demonized to fuel the fear to manipulate you and millions of others to acquiesce to war and death and oil and gas pipelines and US military bases and global control. TURN OFF YOUR TV. Avalon is a coming together of humanity, not a division of humanity into racist cliques.

[Innocent Warrior]

Mod hat off

All women are __________. <--- fill-in the correct word.

Glorious! I'm left handed, so that makes me a unique, glorious woman. :)

Seriously though, as of 2010 there were 1.6 billion Muslims, roughly 23% of the world's population. Any statement that reads, all Muslims are _________ <- insert any word other than Muslim or human, is going to be a inaccurate.

Meaning, yes I would hire a male Muslim babysitter, I wouldn't give a sh*t if my babysitter was Muslim, Christian or otherwise, I'd only care that he/she will take excellent care of my child.

[turiya]

You have lived your entire life right surrounded by people that are members of one of the three most violent religions - the Abrahamic religions. Stop being so scared.


Just to throw in my 2 cents worth...

Its about time that humanity comes to realize something very basic. And that very basic thing concerns what is presently being called 'religion'.

To think that one can reach to a 'heaven' by taking a mass transit bus or train system (i.e. belonging to a certain so-called 'established' religion), one has been deluded, brainwashed, manipulated into believing in a certain ideology - a fairytale of sorts. And that fairytale is that one can take a mass transit system - bus, train, plane - in order to get to a place called 'heaven' that exists elsewhere. And, that mass transit system is called an "established religion".

Granted... for most people are programmed from childhood to be indoctrinated into accepting a certain set of religious beliefs. Once that is done, then one becomes part of the flock, the sheeple of that particular so-called 'religion'.

Whether it is Christian, Islamic , Judaic, Buddhist, etc., etc. - These are basically cults that perform ritualistic practices - whether these practices have you kneel down 5 times a day, or go to a church or synagogue once a week, or repeat certain phrases, a mantra, over & over again - & call it 'prayer'. These individuals have simply become a member of a certain cult. The brainwashing begins at a very early age in the process. The ideology is ingrained into the psyche of an individual. Once that is done, it is very difficult to become clear of it, to deprogram oneself.

To acquire a babysitter for your children, one would reasonably, rationally, pragmatically, vette the person that one would invite into your home to be with your children. That would be the most logical, reasonable thing to do. Screen the person, vette the person, get to know the individual... that is what vetting involves.

Also know this, one that belongs to one of the so-called "established religions", know well, that you are welcoming into your home a brainwashed individual... and that person belongs to a certain cult... And, for the most part, individuals in general are brainwashed to a certain degree or other. That is what human beings are about.

Human beings are cable of doing just about anything... forget about racism, forget about bigotry, forget about whatever label that you want to call somebody... just screen the indiividuals that you invite into your home. Period.

So do your own vetting on which human being you will welcome into your home and be with your own children. Its the same thing - vetting - that should be done with welcoming people into a nation of people.

But to say that one is discriminated against because of one's religion... Well, that is certainly an absurdity, imo. Whatever religion one is claiming to belong. Its a cult. Its not a religion. Get over it.

The truth of the matter is that real religion... to be truly religious - it is an 'individual & personal' affair. Its not a group travel. Its not possible to take a charter flight with millions of others to reach to heaven. On the contrary, one travels alone... going within oneself to reach the treasure that everyone is seeking outwardly - it is the path least traveled.

The following video some may find disturbing...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHv3ccox6L4

[Chester]

Brilliant post, turiya.

I understand.

Yes, "get over it."

Yet, I am not holding my breath.

[marique3652]

Ok, I get your point, and have been summarily kicked to the curb. I will delete the post as it "does not belong on Project Avalon" as you say. I guess the only people who should comment are the people who agree with things, so I have learned my lesson. I see what is going on in the world in other countries and do not want that for the US. That is my option, I will just keep my fears to myself and not share anything here. I rarely post anyway for the reason that if one does not feel the same way as the consensus, it just pisses everyone off. So you stand victorious in squelching my opinion and right to have one. I guess it comes from raising 11 sons, my protective streak of seeing danger for my sons and trying to avert disaster. But you are right, one should not care about this countries welfare, let it be a free for all, to be a nice person. I GUESS I SUCK.:silent:

[marique3652]

The purpose of modern immigration is to dilute and disempower the white race in every white or formerly white country.

Just wow.

You might need to ponder what it means to be American.
Here is some help

New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

America is an idea, not a piece of land. It is the ideas of liberty freedom and justice FOR ALL. Sam, if you want solutions, it is standing right in front of you. I see one simple test. Either you believe in those ideals and are welcomed freely into our country, or you leave. And currently, many so called americans should be shown the door as they dont actually share american values. Lady liberty is weeping . . .

I agree up to a point that America should take in the poor, the homeless, the tempest tossed. However are we as a whole supposed to welcome people who hate us, are jealous, and want to destroy this country and take it over, to rape our women, cut off our daughter's clitorises, rape our children, beat our women, stone them and behead them or kill family members if they wish because they worship a murderous, bloodthirsty pedophile who advocated that anyone that does not believe in allah should be killed? As a freedom loving American I welcome immigrants but do not welcome people who wish us harm, and I am sorry if that makes me a bad person. Would you want a male Muslim babysitting for your children, and would you trust them alone with your daughters and wives. If the answer is no then that is because it is unwise to invite someone whom believes in violence and rape into your home. I just call that common sense. Would you put your child in a room with many poisonous snakes and some snakes that are not, would you risk it that they may get bitten by a poisonous snake. Just asking. Now I am sure you think me a bad American, but welcoming concept sometimes has to use some reasoning too. Muslims as a whole do not want to assimilate, they want to take over our country. I for one want a future for my granddaughter where she does not have to live in fear. I for one do not want to see life for women like back into the dark ages where they are just objects for a man's pleasure. I for one do not want to have to stay inside to avoid being raped or mugged or killed. Read the other day that some mayor in Sweden told the women to just get used to staying inside, and not going to public places as they may get raped or killed or both, and that they just should get used to it. I do not want that for America, but if you collectively do, then I guess I am a horrible person, a Muslimophobe. Sorry for the ramble but it makes me feel good to get it out, lol.

Sounds like FOX news. And racist fearmongering.

Here's a quick self-test:

All women are __________. <--- fill-in the correct word.




.




.




.




OK, what was the correct word?

The only possible correct answers are "unique" or "different."

Get it? (All Blacks are ______. All left-handed people are _______. All Muslims are ______. All Christians are ______.)

You are taking an enormous group of individuals, and based on a single factor, you are pre-judging the entire group (as having the worst behavior possible.) This is prejudice. This is bigotry.

Are you a Christian? If you are a Christian woman, you could be stoned to death in the town square for speaking on the sabbath without a male's permission and for displeasing God by wearing fabric woven of more than one fiber. If you really piss him off (note I said "him" - the God of Christianity clearly identifies as a man), you might cause a flood and wipe us all out, so watch it!

(You have lived your entire life right surrounded by people that are members of one of the three most violent religions - the Abrahamic religions. Stop being so scared.)

This crap doesn't belong on Project Avalon. It is divisive, prejudicial, alarmist, fear-mongering, playing into the hands of the Controllers that want the latest boogeymen, Muslims, demonized to fuel the fear to manipulate you and millions of others to acquiesce to war and death and oil and gas pipelines and US military bases and global control. TURN OFF YOUR TV. Avalon is a coming together of humanity, not a division of humanity into racist cliques.

Please let me know how to delete the post, I will gladly do that. Email me or tell me here. I do not want to be known as this site's disgrace. Will delete when I find out how to delete it.

[RunningDeer]

This crap doesn't belong on Project Avalon. It is divisive, prejudicial, ...
...TURN OFF YOUR TV. Avalon is a coming together of humanity, not a division of humanity into racist cliques.

Please let me know how to delete the post, I will gladly do that. Email me or tell me here. I do not want to be known as this site's disgrace. Will delete when I find out how to delete it.

Hi marique3652 http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/Recovered/smileys-hugs-765537_zpso1eaenyy.gif Two suggestions below. The second one may be more immediate if mods aren't available.

Step One: click the triangle @ the bottom, left corner of the post in question. Not only the parties involved can do so, but any member.


http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii610/WhiteCrowBlackDeer/Computer_Tips/triangle_zps0qa8y2lh.jpg


Step Two: leave a brief message and the mod team will take it from there.


http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii610/WhiteCrowBlackDeer/Computer_Tips/form_zpscnyfa6wu.jpg


*****


Second Option: go back and re-edit your post. One example might be “please delete this post”.


http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii610/WhiteCrowBlackDeer/Computer_Tips/edit-save_zpsiepntcnk.jpg

♡

[marique3652]

Thanks Running Dear, will try method B first.

[Chester]

Because I created this thread, I am choosing to shift for a moment to something which some might not see as related, but which I see as very pertinent to the recent flow of this thread.


I walked by a store front the other day. I saw an item I was interested in buying and wanted more information. I walked into the store and asked the first clerk I could find if I could get more information about the chair I saw in the storefront window. The clerk responded, "the what?" I replied, "the chair."

The clerk became indignant and informed me they only have furniture in their store. I shook my head..., "Say what?"

The clerk repeated what he said, "Again... we only have furniture in our store."

So I asked him to follow me to the window so I could point out the chair. When I did, I asked him, "Isn't this what we call a chair?"

His response was, "why are you assuming that piece of furniture perceives itself to be a chair?" He then asked me to leave stating, "people with your views are not welcomed in our store." At that point I decided I wouldn't want to buy the chair anyways from such a store.

As I walked out the door, someone passed me and asked... "Did you see any cool tables?" I said, "If I did, I wouldn't say it as just around the corner is UC Berkey." The moment I said that, the would be customer looked at me a bit confused and then... as if a greater truth dawned on him/her, he/she winked at me and nodded and walked back out the door.

And this story is an allegory for what "some folks" wish for the world to become and indeed, in some places... it already has.

Funny how so many folks that are worried about endangered species are bent on the endangerment of free speech.

[Helene West]

]If we don't start differentiating in our thinking, speaking and discussing, that is, being careful how we name things, discussion is meaningless.

You are absolutely correct with this statement


The purpose of modern immigration is to dilute and disempower the white race in every white or formerly white country.


The globalists are white but they do not practice 'diversity' or identify with whites outside of their class. They preach and mandate diversity to us peasants but they marry only their own class - that is what a ruling class does.

Your comments started me thinking. In particular where you say the "white race" and "white country".

It made me wonder what does it mean to be "White"? But not only white in a "white society" but the social impacts that affect all of the people living in a "white country" or society.

The following is a perspective from a "white" person.

I'd be very interested in hearing your views.

By Robin DiAngelo

I AM white. I have spent years studying what it means to be white in a society that proclaims race meaningless, yet is deeply divided by race. This is what I have learned: Any white person living in the United States will develop opinions about race simply by swimming in the water of our culture.

But mainstream sources — schools, textbooks, media and anecdotal evidence — don’t provide us with the multiple perspectives we need. Yes, we will develop strong emotionally laden opinions, but they will not be informed opinions. Our socialization renders us racially illiterate.

This illiteracy was evident in the debate about the Seattle Gilbert & Sullivan Society production of “The Mikado” and its casting of non-Asian actors in 40 Japanese roles.

To understand the crux of white racial illiteracy illustrated by the debate, consider a typical computer user. The user is proficient and knows all the basics — Word, email, spreadsheets. But when the user has a technical problem and tries to explain it to the IT department, communication breaks down. The user gets defensive, feeling talked down to by tech support. Tech support gets frustrated because the user doesn’t know how computers actually work and can’t comprehend its instructions.

Like a nontechnical user trying to understand a technical problem, our racial illiteracy limits our ability to have meaningful conversations about race.

Mainstream dictionary definitions reduce racism to racial prejudice and the personal actions that result. But this definition does little to explain how racial hierarchies are consistently reproduced.

Social scientists define racism as a multidimensional, highly adaptive system — a system that ensures an unequal distribution of resources among racial groups. The group that controls the institutions controls the distribution and embeds its racial bias into the fabric of society.

In the U.S., while individual whites might be against racism, they still benefit from their group’s control. Yes, an individual person of color can sit at the tables of power, but the overwhelming majority of decision-makers will be white. Yes, white people can have problems and face barriers, but systematic racism won’t be one of them.

This distinction — between individual prejudice and a system of unequal institutionalized racial power — is fundamental. One cannot understand how racism functions in the U.S. today if one ignores group power relations.

While the following do not apply to every white person, they are well-documented white patterns and beliefs that make it difficult for white people to understand racism as a system:

• Segregation: Most whites live, grow, play, learn, love, work and die primarily in racial segregation. Yet, our society does not teach us to see this as a loss. Pause for a moment and consider the magnitude of this message: We lose nothing of value by not having cross-racial relationships. In fact, the whiter our schools and neighborhoods are, the more likely they are to be seen as “good.” This is an example of the relentless messages of white superiority that circulate all around us, shaping our identities and perspectives.

• Individualism: Whites are taught to see themselves as individuals, rather than as part of a racial group. It follows that we are racially objective and thus can represent the universal human experience, while people of color can only represent their race. Seeing ourselves as unracialized individuals, we take umbrage when generalizations are made about us as a group. This enables us to ignore systemic racial patterns.

• Focus on intentions over impact: We are taught that racism must be intentional and that only bad people commit it. Thus a common white reasoning in cross-racial conflicts is that as long as we are good people and didn’t intend to perpetuate racism, then our actions don’t count as racism. But racism doesn’t depend on conscious intent. In fact, much of racism is unconscious. Further, when we focus on intent we are essentially saying that the impact of our behavior on others is irrelevant.

• White fragility: In a white dominant society, challenges to a white worldview are uncommon. The racial status quo is comfortable for us. We haven’t had to develop the skills, perspectives, or humility that would help us engage constructively. As a result, we have very little tolerance for racial discomfort and respond poorly.

Putting this all together, you get the outcomes we see in “The Mikado” controversy.

When actors audition, they are most often judged by white people, using white standards for roles written by white writers and intended for white audiences. The outcomes of a specific audition are the cumulative result of this historic control.

Precisely because the system reflects white interests and worldview, white people will not see any of this in racial terms. They are confident that we can represent all of humanity — if no Asian actors apply, we don’t question casting efforts.

Because the egregious depictions of Asians in the opera are not intended as racist (and because so many whites enjoy these depictions), the racist impact is denied. When racism is pointed out, umbrage ensues.

The understanding of racism as a social system of unequal power is generally termed antiracism. An antiracism framework will help any white person become more racially literate and navigate most any racial conflict. We can begin by acknowledging ourselves as having a particular and necessarily limited perspective on race. That acknowledgment engenders humility rather than certitude.

Thinking in terms of structures and patterns, not individual acts or good and bad people, is foundational. Putting ourselves in situations that challenge and stretch our racial worldviews, while uncomfortable, builds our racial stamina.

Finally, we need to focus on impact rather than intent. On Aug. 18, the Seattle Repertory Theatre and the City of Seattle are holding a community dialogue about “The Mikado.” This is a great opportunity for whites to practice these skills.

Let me be clear. I don’t see myself or other whites as bad. Racism is a system that we did not create, but it’s one that we did inherit. We must take responsibility to see and challenge it both within and around us. The first step? Have some humility and listen.

Robin DiAngelo is an associate professor of education at Westfield State University in Massachusetts. She teaches and writes extensively on whiteness. Her latest book is “What Does it Mean to Be White? Developing White Racial Literacy.

Sorry about the misaligned quotes. I'm such a noob to this editing system

Hi Abmqa
Sorry for the delay in responding, you had asked my opinion on the Teacher/Agent above's mind control course. Why do I call her an agent? Many moons ago I was an activist in college. I belonged to socialist and feminist activities. We would worry about government Cointelpro provocateurs of any sort disrupting meetings and events. If you go to Wikipedia they will claim that the gov disbanded Cointelpro. If you believe that I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. Not only do I not believe cointelpro was disbanded but because of technology and the global village it has become huge, well funded and elaborate. There are quite a number of these 'teachers' around teaching being caucasian is the same as having an infectious disease. My money is that they will never direct the poison towards the whites who own the banks and corporations in the western world - why? It is these whites through their many layers of control who are funneling remuneration to these teacher/agents. The purpose of their poison is to make the average caucasian who never hurt anyone, who is struggling to survive, have no control over history or current events, feel like crap. It is evil. I have alluded to why the white ruling class of the west needs to decimate caucasian culture on the road to their one world government and don't wish to go into it here. Suffice to say - IMHO - she is a paid agent. Thx

[Helene West]

Ok, I get your point, and have been summarily kicked to the curb. I will delete the post as it "does not belong on Project Avalon" as you say. I guess the only people who should comment are the people who agree with things, so I have learned my lesson. I see what is going on in the world in other countries and do not want that for the US. That is my option, I will just keep my fears to myself and not share anything here. I rarely post anyway for the reason that if one does not feel the same way as the consensus, it just pisses everyone off. So you stand victorious in squelching my opinion and right to have one. I guess it comes from raising 11 sons, my protective streak of seeing danger for my sons and trying to avert disaster. But you are right, one should not care about this countries welfare, let it be a free for all, to be a nice person. I GUESS I SUCK.:silent:

Marique - please don't let yourself be bullied. I hope you don't delete your self-expression. If this forum turns into UC Berkeley then the lights have gone out on the internet as far as I'm concerned.

[Chester]

It would be so nice if somehow the matter as noted in the thread title could actually be discussed maturely and so I will once again try to do so without inviting the "you can't do anything about anything because of the evil all powerful illumed and nutty so why are you pretending you can" crowd.

I just can't teach (by my actions... through my words and deeds) to my children to just accept an "inevitable" demise. Despite what the opposition may appear to be. I just cannot teach futility to my loved ones.

I wonder... has anyone even considered the history of the matter?

Let me ask this. Does the last few hundred years of US "nationhood" have any impact upon the subject? Even if you believe its all staged and all run remotely by a small group of elite generational families who may be controlled by other worldly beings (of which I am actually quite open minded about)...

Can we not at least explore how... from the ground up, we might try and repair our world? Perhaps behave in a way differently from the way we appear to have behaved (at least most of the masses) for far too long which this very elite points to when justifying what they do?

So look at nations. Does a nation have the right to keep its citizens safe and to manage who comes into their country, how they come in, on what terms they come in and how someone might become a resident and even a citizen?

And so look at the question of - "what gives the current batch of folks in the US any rights to do any of this when they stole it all anyways?"

And then you can ask, how is there any justification to blame folks alive today for what happened a few hundred or more years ago?

Why can we not explore these types of questions so that perhaps we might find some sort of common ground from which we could explore big picture solutions without allowing our emotions to be eaten up?

Are the folks here willing to try? Are we capable?

[Dennis Leahy]

Ok, I get your point, and have been summarily kicked to the curb. I will delete the post as it "does not belong on Project Avalon" as you say. I guess the only people who should comment are the people who agree with things, so I have learned my lesson. I see what is going on in the world in other countries and do not want that for the US. That is my option, I will just keep my fears to myself and not share anything here. I rarely post anyway for the reason that if one does not feel the same way as the consensus, it just pisses everyone off. So you stand victorious in squelching my opinion and right to have one. I guess it comes from raising 11 sons, my protective streak of seeing danger for my sons and trying to avert disaster. But you are right, one should not care about this countries welfare, let it be a free for all, to be a nice person. I GUESS I SUCK.:silent:

If you are going to edit a post, you might want to have a look at this one too.

"I get your point, and have been summarily kicked to the curb."
No, you weren't "kicked to the curb" - the bigotry you expressed was.


"the only people who should comment are the people who agree with things"
You know this is a disingenuous statement. There are hundreds of discussions here at Avalon with disagreements and differences of opinion.


"I see what is going on in the world in other countries and do not want that for the US."
So, you want to protect the USA from immigrants, refugees, ... non-whites? The country founded by racist, white, aristocratic, European "landed gentry" on the corpses of perhaps 100 million indigenous people with different ("red") colored skin and culture than the European occupiers? You want to protect the primary destination country of human traffickers - the (Black) slave traders? The last country on Earth to abolish (overt) slavery? The USA is controlled by terrorists CAUSING almost all of the "hell on Earth" - so, do you want to protect that aspect of the USA, INC. too, or just the white fantasy Leave It To Beaver-style illusion of the way you want white-controlled USA to be?


"you stand victorious in squelching my opinion and right to have one"
This is such bull****. Are you really declaring yourself a victim, because you don't get to express overt bigotry on Avalon?



"But you are right, one should not care about this countries welfare, let it be a free for all, to be a nice person."
This is a triple strawman argument, and an attempt to deflect from the real reason I posted: shocking bigotry.

"but you are right" is a disingenuous lead-in, followed by attempts to mischaracterize what I actually said and what it means.

One should, of course, care about their country's welfare - but that does not equate to nurturing bigotry. Allowing someone the freedom to express their cultural heritage and/or religion - or {gasp} to immigrate their non-white self to the USA - is not a "free for all" (which indicates chaos, and is fear-mongering), and the phrase "be a nice person" attempts to discount and characterize anti-bigotry as just being silly political correctness.


"my protective streak of seeing danger for my sons and trying to avert disaster."
On 9/11, I held my baby daughter in my arms and cried. I cried in fear that I could not protect her. On that day, I believed that radical Muslims attacked the USA - because the people that actually committed the crimes told me that radical Muslims attacked the USA.

I didn't stay stuck there.

I did hundreds and hundreds of hours of research, and now I understand that no Muslims were involved in the 9/11 event. None. The real culprits (most of whom have white skin, by the way: the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the PNAC-faction of the then-current US government, CIA brass, and the Israeli Mossad) pointed fingers at their pre-selected scapegoat: Muslims - and ALMOST ALL OF US fell for it. I forgive myself (and all of us) for falling for it on day one (9/11) and shortly thereafter, but I do NOT forgive anyone who never figured out that Muslims had nothing to do with 9/11 and who have jumped on the psychopathic criminals' bandwagon of blaming Muslims for their (neocon, white-skinned, pseudo-Christian) false-flag crimes.

Yes, I realize that the USA was a steaming pile of bigotry even before 9/11 and that there were white-skinned people who felt superior to all other skin tones and who believed that their own (cherry-picked) "Christian" beliefs are right and all others are wrong. I also realize that, due to the imperialist take-over and destruction of their Middle Eastern or Northern African countries - by the corporatist-militarist USA, INC. - that millions and millions of refugees were forced to emigrate, and some have had cultural clashes where they ended up. It is impossible to immediately "assimilate" into a new culture under these conditions (that you and I cannot even begin to imagine.) Think about cultural assimilation for a minute. Think of your own (ethnic/heritage/religious) culture and think about how much you would change culturally - and how fast - if the USA was bombed to smithereens and you had to flee to Mexico. Also think of the fact that after having lived your life for decades with whatever culture you have, you may not want to "fully assimilate" and may want to hold to some or even all of your own culture. Talk to anyone in the world that has dealt with "American" ex-pats and they will tell you that the US citizens generally do not assimilate into the local culture, but rather cling to other US ex-pats in "American enclaves." So don't even tell me (you too, Helene West) that you would assimilate into a foreign culture if you were forced to emigrate there. You know you wouldn't "fully assimilate", yet you expect other refugees to do it... and to "hurry the hell up!"

Project Avalon is about the coming together of humanity, not its division. Bigotry and racism are not welcome at Avalon. The real history of the world, and in particular of the USA, is horrific in its racism, and we need to focus on healing ourselves and celebrating the utter uniqueness (not just the "diversity" of groups of individuals) of each human. This is the opposite of what Rockefeller and Carnegie's agenda was when they took over the education system in the US (and adapted by Europe) to homogenize humanity and train the stupid slobs (that would be us) just enough to perform tasks in their industrial enterprises (factories.) THIS is where you first got the idea that your forced homogenization was "culture."

By the way, it is just possible that the "Global Controllers" did not intentionally create millions of refugees with some great nefarious plan, but rather just didn't give a rat's ass where the victims that weren't murdered ended up after their country was stolen. Maybe the supposed "controllers" are just apex capitalists, and really are just a cluster of greedy bastards that want all the resources and the regional military control to keep control of the stolen resources. They certainly do control wealth and power. We do have some strong indications that these global owners/controllers want to keep us infighting and to stay fractured, and to never unite to defeat them. For this, note that they promote a race war or a religious war - because neither one touches them and keeps us divided. The war they don't want is the CLASS war, the one where all the stupid slobs somehow unite and easily take the power away from the controllers. The fact that you are sucked-in to the agenda of the controllers should tell you something.

Racism and bigotry are indoctrinated into US soldiers, dehumanizing the "enemy" (who is really the victim) to make it easier to carry out the orders to murder them. This is official policy of the US government's military. Besides the US military, (I have never looked but I suspect that), there are plenty of places in cyberspace to spew frothing-at-the-mouth racist rants, and there are always KKK gatherings. So, if one has racism and bigotry in their heart, and isn't even trying to heal from it, there are other places that welcome it.



...Funny how so many folks that are worried about endangered species are bent on the endangerment of free speech.
Sam and turiya and Helene and others promoting the idea that tries to pretend that this is a free speech issue, just stop it. Promoting racism and bigotry as "free speech" is about like saying that the police using LRAD (sound cannons) are exercising free speech. The INTENT of racism and bigotry, written and spoken, is discrediting, dismissing, and degrading, frightening, intimidating, and assaulting another group of people based on race/ethnicity and/or religion. It is the opposite of "free." Compassionate, loving, spiritually-advancing people don't promote racism and bigotry, nor do they try to characterize racism and bigotry as free speech.

[Helene West]

Leahy
I don't know if this forum has an Ignore button or if I can ignore moderators. This isn't UC Berkeley.

You're translating Sam's, mine and Turiya's post via your filter and don't have the honesty to cop to that. You're misinterpreting other people as it doesn't fit your narrative and now want to control us. Marinque sounded bullied and in my opinion, by you. I'm against racism but that also includes racism against caucasians. It's real and I'm not deviating. People don't have to read my posts. Change the forum to the "Feel Good Forum Or Else" if differences of perspectives other than Leahy's isn't allowed.

[Praxis]

Thanks dennis and Abmqa. I was starting to think everyone on this site was okay with the casual racism being expressed. I feel like I am living in bizzaro world or something. Im just glad that the anti different human people are finally expressing their bigotry outloud so we know who they are.

[Helene West]

My target, for anyone actually reading my posts, is the ruling class, in the west they are caucasian. They have been my target. I've made that clear maybe 7 or 8 times. But folks don't read, they peruse looking for their buzz words that they like or don't like. This is what the left is doing to conservative, even middle of the road people all over this country. This is what facebook, twitter, etc is doing. Hopefully this forum doesn't become UC Berkeley as far as the political thread is concerned.
No apologies to the insecure or those needing to control others.

[Praxis]

My target, for anyone actually reading my posts, is the ruling class, in the west they are caucasian. They have been my target. I've made that clear maybe 7 or 8 times. But folks don't read, they peruse looking for their buzz words that they like or don't like. This is what the left is doing to conservative, even middle of the road people all over this country. This is what facebook, twitter, etc is doing. Hopefully this forum doesn't become UC Berkeley as far as the political thread is concerned.
No apologies to the insecure or those needing to control others.

This will be the last time I respond to you in this thread. Again, you have accused people of having no reading comprehension. I responded to your main post piece by piece and did not cherry pick. Yet you didnt even acknowledge anything I said. And have you ever considered that maybe, just maybe we did read what you said but rejected it? I truly do not think you understand what the ideals of america are. Have you even read the bill of rights or the constitution?

Furthermore, Avalon is a private place. They get to control what happens here. You can speak freely, but they can also kick you out for what you say. THis doesnt violate your free speech, it is them exercising their property rights. You do believe in property rights yes? Free speech is in the realm of government interaction, not when you are in a private place. Reddit, Avalon, Twitter are well within their rights as property owners to exercise full control over their property and what happens in it. You are within your rights not to use their services. If they abuse it too much they die so there is a balance to be found.

Dennis bullied nobody.

Dennis did bully an idea that was expressed by somebody but you are not your ideas, which is a good thing.

Do you ever notice Helene that you speak in memes? I challenge you not use buzzwords, which you just accused us of doing, like LEFT or UC BERKLEY SHARIA etc.
On a pedantic note, Dennis was not translating what anybody said he was simply quoting. While you might think he was misrepresenting what you said, he was most certainly not mistranslating. Translation is taking one language and turning it into another while keeping the meaning intact or from one medium to another. Neither of these definitions work here.

[DNA]

The purpose of modern immigration is to dilute and disempower the white race in every white or formerly white country.


I think your heart is in the right place Dennis, but I think Marique's heart was in the right place also.
If Marique had replaced the phrase "white race" with "middle class" I'm of the opinion that no one would have had a problem with what she was saying.
I don't think Marique is racist and or meant any more than that, some folks simply choose the wrong wording for their posts and I think that is what happened here.



Thanks dennis and Abmqa. I was starting to think everyone on this site was okay with the casual racism being expressed. I feel like I am living in bizzaro world or something. Im just glad that the anti different human people are finally expressing their bigotry outloud so we know who they are.
I think the elite know very well how to divide the people of this country and have us fighting with one another and I'm of the opinion that this is what is happening here.
I'm of the opinion that we as a whole agree on things a great amount of the time, but "they" have us fighting with eachother over syntax, grammer and other such things. We need to have unity and we need to try and not allow ourselves to be triggered.
Just my 2 cents here.

[Chester]

Back in 1978, when I was a mere 20 years old, I got into some trouble with some marijuana (not a small amount) in Lubbock, Texas. I found myself in the Lubbock County jail.

I recall one day one of the young black kids coming back from court. Just after he entered the cell block, he passed my cell and then stopped. He then glared at me and rushed in to drop kick me right in the chest. I was hurt bit not too bad... but what I really experienced was shock as I had done nothing to that kid. But I was compelled to implore, "Why??? Why did you do that?"

I will never forget his exact words... "I just got sentenced to five years in the pen and the judge was white!"

And guess what my compassionate, loving and spiritually advanced thought was?

I understood, felt bad for the kid... didn't really have to forgive him as before I even had the chance to judge him, I considered what I knew of his life, his circumstances, his education and the world he grew up in which included the bias he was exposed to in his community and the messages he likely got from the culture (which includes the media) he had been exposed to.

¤=[Post Update]=¤




[QUOTE=9ofClubs;1148794][QUOTE=Helene West;1148785]
The purpose of modern immigration is to dilute and disempower the white race in every white or formerly white country.

Just wow.

You might need to ponder what it means to be American.
I think your heart is in the right place Dennis, but I think Marique's heart was in the right place also.
If Marique had replaced the phrase "white race" with "middle class" I'm of the opinion that no one would have had a problem with what she was saying.
I don't think Marique is racist and or meant any more than that, some folks simply choose the wrong wording for their posts and I think that is what happened here.



Thanks dennis and Abmqa. I was starting to think everyone on this site was okay with the casual racism being expressed. I feel like I am living in bizzaro world or something. Im just glad that the anti different human people are finally expressing their bigotry outloud so we know who they are.
I think the elite know very well how to divide the people of this country and have us fighting with one another and I'm of the opinion that this is what is happening here.
I'm of the opinion that we as a whole agree on things a great amount of the time, but "they" have us fighting with each other over syntax, grammer and other such things. We need to have unity and we need to try and not allow ourselves to be triggered.
Just my 2 cents here.

I have another post written which I am, for now, holding back... and this is because my post says the same thing that I just read here in DNA's post. And DNA is saying it in a way that does not continue to throw gas on an already raging fire. Thanks DNA.

Note I emphasized the point about Marique's heart as I felt the same and my PM to her 9 hours ago backs this up... and I do mean Marique.

[Dennis Leahy]

...The purpose of modern immigration is to dilute and disempower the white race in every white or formerly white country.

I think your heart is in the right place Dennis, but I think Marique's heart was in the right place also.
If Marique had replaced the phrase "white race" with "middle class" I'm of the opinion that no one would have had a problem with what she was saying.
I don't think Marique is racist and or meant any more than that, some folks simply choose the wrong wording for their posts and I think that is what happened here.

I think you meant "Helene" when you said "Marique", and no, Helene said she is not going to back down or apologize to anyone. She has stated on several occasions that she is talking about "white people"/"Caucasians", not "middle class." As I said in my long post just above, there most certainly is division being sown and apparent attempts to characterize what is going on as a race war or religious war - because the LAST thing these controlling elite psychopaths want is for informed people to recognize that they are in a class war - which DOES make the Elite the obvious target. If Helene really does mean "class war" then she needs to get out an eraser and fix all of her messages of doom for "white" people who she says are under attack from non-white people. (She also speaks of "white country", and there is just no disguising that. I'm a US citizen, and the USA is not a white country (though the ruling class in the US is primarily white. The criteria for joining the Elite is money and power and sociopathy, not skin color.)

99.999% of us are under full attack, in a CLASS war, by the upper upper (power/money) class, the Elite. That's the real war, and what we should be focused on. Think of an old Keystone Cops movie chase scene where the bad guys are up ahead in a pickup truck, throwing stuff out of the back of the truck. Our "job" is to not lose sight of them, to keep up the chase, not to get distracted or stopped by something they threw off the truck. "Immigration" is a real issue, was decades ago, and will be in decades, but this deliberate presentation of immigration as a racial/religious/cultural war fomented by the refugees of destroyed countries is an attempt by the Elite to get us off their scent, to forget that we are in a class war.


I actually suspect that Marique is frightened, not racist, and that her fears - which fall directly in-line with the controllers' propaganda - came out sounding like a bigoted rant. My conjecture is that she has fallen victim to the sophisticated propaganda machine that is coming from the same group of people that orchestrated and executed and covered-up 9/11 and that need a scapegoat/boogeyman for the faux "war on terror." They still need people to equate being Muslim with being a terrorist. I have high hopes that Marique will figure out that her response was a fear-conditioned response.

[Chester]

Bingo Dennis... we are on the same page with regards to Marique (apologies to speak of another as a third person). I also was very glad to read your point about this being a class war and yes, you have many times pointed this out and I agree with this too. I am glad I did not post what I had written as it would not have expressed very much compassion, love and spiritual advancement. I only suggest that we try and be this way, do this for everyone here as best we can and for as long as we can.

Ohhh and I understand my analogy post I made earlier could have been interpreted that I was suggesting free speech on this thread was being shut down. I was actually just expressing my own frustration over the very real attempts to shut down legitimate idea dissemination that has recently occurred at UC Berkley and had no intent to cite UC Berkley in the form of a buzz word. UC Berkley is ironically known as the home of the free speech movement which my 60 years here on Earth recalls fondly. What I was impressed by is that so many who identify themselves as leftists called out this very action which, for me, is heartening and which we must defend for this constitutional republic to continue as we have known it.

[Chester]

What is so ironic is that the very main point I hoped to make is the following -

The whole entire "umbrella" that covers so many sub issues under one term... the US immigration issue. This very issue has been going on for decades and if one actually looks at it - for centuries. I will explain this if anyone is interested, but what I had hoped to focus on and the main point I wanted to make was that because the current incarnation of this issue can be seen to envelope at least 30 to 40 years... then one thing stands out to me far and above everything else.

And that is that the only solution to the problem that would make any sense to me must consider the full 30 to 40 years result.

And I what I see is that so many people have developed an attitude that those who are in the US illegally (and being undocumented is illegal... but it is only a civil violation) should be handled in ways where if they are identified by ICE (or whoever might be authorized to act to take action against these folks) should then be deported. And I cannot agree with this because to do so denies my own (and thus I assign this to all US citizens) responsibility and the responsibility we share in allowing the situation to become as it is today.

...and so back to focusing on the result of the last 30 - 40 years...

And so the last person I see to be at fault is someone who has been economically depressed, has been under the rule of outlaws far more than the rule of law of a functioning government and who sees there's a land close by that demonstrates "just come on over," sees a land that has demonstrated this consistently for decades, sees a land with a better living standard that has granted amnesty twice... just a few miles or a few hundred miles away... again, the last person that should pay the price for taking the chance to come to the US is the folks who came here and overstayed their visas or who came across the border without clearing immigration.

I see that it has been the US politicians that are at fault and the US voters who vote in these politicians. If the politicians are being bought off (and we know they are via lobbyists and campaign contributions) by businesses who perceive benefits from cheaper labor, it is still their fault and the voters fault. If the immigration laws on the books had been followed these last several decades, that's a whole different story, but to make these immigrants pay for what we all created and maintained for 30 - 40 years, to me, shows no heart and is certainly not what I, personally, support.

And I only addressed just one of the sub issues underneath this very large umbrella.

[DNA]

I think you meant "Helene" when you said "Marique", and no, Helene said she is not going to back down or apologize to anyone. She has stated on several occasions that she is talking about "white people"/"Caucasians", not "middle class." As I said in my long post just above, there most certainly is division being sown and apparent attempts to characterize what is going on as a race war or religious war - because the LAST thing these controlling elite psychopaths want is for informed people to recognize that they are in a class war - which DOES make the Elite the obvious target. If Helene really does mean "class war" then she needs to get out an eraser and fix all of her messages of doom for "white" people who she says are under attack from non-white people. (She also speaks of "white country", and there is just no disguising that. I'm a US citizen, and the USA is not a white country (though the ruling class in the US is primarily white. The criteria for joining the Elite is money and power and sociopathy, not skin color.)

99.999% of us are under full attack, in a CLASS war, by the upper upper (power/money) class, the Elite. That's the real war, and what we should be focused on. Think of an old Keystone Cops movie chase scene where the bad guys are up ahead in a pickup truck, throwing stuff out of the back of the truck. Our "job" is to not lose sight of them, to keep up the chase, not to get distracted or stopped by something they threw off the truck. "Immigration" is a real issue, was decades ago, and will be in decades, but this deliberate presentation of immigration as a racial/religious/cultural war fomented by the refugees of destroyed countries is an attempt by the Elite to get us off their scent, to forget that we are in a class war.


I actually suspect that Marique is frightened, not racist, and that her fears - which fall directly in-line with the controllers' propaganda - came out sounding like a bigoted rant. My conjecture is that she has fallen victim to the sophisticated propaganda machine that is coming from the same group of people that orchestrated and executed and covered-up 9/11 and that need a scapegoat/boogeyman for the faux "war on terror." They still need people to equate being Muslim with being a terrorist. I have high hopes that Marique will figure out that her response was a fear-conditioned response.


In reading responses to quotes and such I think you are correct in that the phrase I quoted was originally Helene's.
And this post by yourself Dennis is very well articulated and I agree with it 100%.
But that being said Helene is extremely intelligent and understands and from what I've read agrees completely with what you are stating.
In reading what Helene posted, that one small phrase "white race being under attack and diluted" isn't really all that damning of a phrase.
If an Asian were to have said it you would have had no problem.
If an African American would have said it you would have had no problem.
If an American Indian would have stated it you would have had no problem with it.
I think Dennis that you are a very caring and empathic individual, and you are old enough to have seen the wrongs done to other races by whites and to have seen white culture embrace stereo types that were unacceptable and you probably have a long history of confronting those wrongs and attempting to right them.
But I ask you, if an Asian can be proud to be an Asian, and an American Indian can be proud to be an American Indian is it really that wrong for a white person to unapologetically embrace and delight in their own genetics?


Why is it that if the topic of race comes up a white person needs to apologize for being white or be termed a racist?
If a tone comes out of a white person in reference to race relations other than shame, regret and or apologetic then that person is termed a racist.


Dennis I think you are a super smart dude, and you have a firm grasp of what is going on, but I think Helene just has some of the biggest balls on the forum and is speaking her truth and I personally do not have a problem with it.

[turiya]

Sam and turiya and Helene and others promoting the idea that tries to pretend that this is a free speech issue, just stop it.

Dennis Leahy,
You had not posted a quoted statement that I had made in this regard.
Probably because there isn't one.

You say that it is a class war. I would disagree. It is Consciousness vs Unconsciousness war!

This is a war over keeping the populous from becoming more conscious. The priority is keeping the masses utterly & completely unconscious.

This is why you have the Deep State so deeply embedded within the MSM corporate media outlets. Its to maintain the narrative... to keep up the constant flow of propaganda... non stop!

Edit:
As much as Alex Jones is disliked by many, there is one thing he's gotten right & that is the labeling of this war that is going on as an 'Infowar'!

The battle of keeping the masses unconscious to what is really going on... to keep them remanining in the dark!

It's truly an information war!

[zen deik]

LoL....its plain to me segregation is still not popular....

[Bill Ryan]

I'd like to report a personal story — just as it happened. If a camera had been following me, this is what it'd have recorded.

Many years ago, in the early 2000s, I was driving through Leicester, in England, which I didn't know very well. I did know it was the first city in the UK where the white British population was a minority, but I'd hardly spent any time there.

From Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leicester):



Ethnicity (2011)[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leicester#cite_note-2011censusdemo-4)


45.1% White British
5.4% Other White
37.1% Asian
6.2% Black
3.5% Mixed Race
2.6% other

I needed a haircut, so I stopped and parked where I could see there was a hairdresser's. I walked in.

17 Pakistani faces, all sitting or working there, simultaneously turned and stared at me. I was shocked, and probably looked it. Almost instinctively, I turned round and walked out. It was a totally bizarre experience, and one that I'd been quite unprepared for.

Clearly, this was not a hairdresser's for white Englishmen. I was the one out of place there.

I did not have a haircut that day. I dwelt on the incident all the way home, which was quite some distance away.

Now, I am not a racist. I live in Ecuador, and love the local people. I prefer their company to most Americans I see here. I'd certainly rather live here than in England or the US.

One of my friends I'm closer to than almost anyone else is Puerto Rican. I spent my young childhood in Ghana and Nigeria, and I love the African people. I've visited Africa many times since then, and have traveled extensively there — also in India, Nepal and Thailand. I'm a global citizen, really. I don't even like English people, very much. :)

I spent a lot of time thinking about that brief incident in Leicester. There was something wrong. But it was nothing to do with color of skin, religion, or race.

It was about culture.

[DNA]

By the way, it is just possible that the "Global Controllers" did not intentionally create millions of refugees with some great nefarious plan, but rather just didn't give a rat's ass where the victims that weren't murdered ended up after their country was stolen. Maybe the supposed "controllers" are just apex capitalists, and really are just a cluster of greedy bastards that want all the resources and the regional military control to keep control of the stolen resources. They certainly do control wealth and power. We do have some strong indications that these global owners/controllers want to keep us infighting and to stay fractured, and to never unite to defeat them. For this, note that they promote a race war or a religious war - because neither one touches them and keeps us divided. The war they don't want is the CLASS war, the one where all the stupid slobs somehow unite and easily take the power away from the controllers. The fact that you are sucked-in to the agenda of the controllers should tell you something.


For all your intelligence and capability your intelligence will do you no good if you do not recognize the intent of the elite.
This one paragraph lends me to believe you have your head in the sand and it pretty much nullifies all of your good points.
You seem to be apologizing for all the rape and murder the muslims have done in Europe and attribute it to a lack of assimilation.
The globalists want a ONE WORLD ORDER and in order to get it they have to DESTROY THE MIDDLE CLASS.
Destroying America and the European countries that have a decent standard of living is what they are doing now and it is pretty transparent.
For you to not see this means for all your capability you are blind for the most part.
Do you really think the elite give a rat's ass for the muslim refugees and their well being?
Why would the elite have the main stream media feigning such sympathy if not for an agenda?
You are correct in stating that 9/11 was completely staged and done by US insiders not a muslim contingency such as Al Queda, but the same cabal who orchestrated 9/11 never left power and it is quite evident in the actions of Obama. It was obvious in Hillary's stated agenda and it is obvious now that they have steered Trump into accomplishing their goals as well.
So why would these 9/11 conspirators want muslims in the western countries? This is all orchestration and I plead with you to exercise detachment and not succumb to the ploys for pity as communicated by the main stream media which we know is controlled 100% by the CIA who in turn are controlled 100% by the banking elite.
Why are all the main stream media channels broadcasting the same message? This should be a major red flag for you.

[Flash]

I also had a strange experience in my own country, by becoming the tiny minority all of a sudden.

2 years ago, I decided I needed to get in shape as well as meet people. So i searched on the web for walking groups not too far from my home, The only one I found which had convenient walking hours for me was 1/2 hour drive from my home. So I started to go twice a week.

It was a real great group, people from all over the planet (a majority Muslim arabs, some Israelis, Italians, etc) we ended up being about 30 people, and we would make sure to gain the calories back after the walk, by all going for coffee, munchin or sometimes meal afterward.

One evening, we were 32 persons sitting in an italian restaurant ordering food. And I pass the following comment: This is stange I said, but we are only four Canadians with ancestors from here. Then one of the French Canadian girl ask me " ah yes, who are they". I answered well, you - she said no, I am Portuguese, then I said to another woman, well you, she said "no I am Serbian", I told a third woman, well you and she said "no, I am Arab", believe it or not, from the 32 there, I was the only born Canadian there, and definitely the only French Canadian.

I was in shock - the western part of my city is deemed English speaking, but it is everything except English (and nor French, two of the original invader populations).

The nice thing is that we were all getting along, the not as nice thing is that there were at times tensions because of cultural backlash (some not very integrated immigrants, but how could they, when there is no original settlers left). There were no common culture to attach too, or to create a common understanding of what is and what is not a culturally commonly agreed behavior or thinking.

One of the backlash was a woman being beaten up by her husband and not wanting to do anything about it because in her culture she had to accept it. Nobody wanted to say anything except a few occidental women.

--------------------------------

As for racism, I did live reverse racism in Mexico, quite constant - I was the dam gringa whom men chase but do not respect. This is where I learned to develop acute self protecting behaviors with a witty borderline nasty mouth. Always conscious at all time that I was white, blonde and a foreigner even though I spoke fluent spanish. (i have lost some of the language abilities with time, for lack of practice - but haven't lost the witty borderline nasty mouth when needed).

---------------------------------

Makes me remember when my ex-husband and I were looking for a house. We went to a neigborhood in Montreal where there was nice housing, condos, etc. We visited a few, then went for lunch at a nearby shopping center.

We bought something and sat there, observing the crowd. It was anything but white French or Anglo Saxon. My husband told me "this is human zoo", and then he added up "We are not moving in this neighborhood" to which I asked "why" and he answered "I came to Canada to live with Canadians a Canadian life, not to be living in a human zoo, I do not feel well in this kind of place".

You see, my husband was an immigrant himself, telling that he could not related and identify with the place he lived in if there was not enough homogeneity.

It was about culture too, but seen from an immigrant point of view.

[thunder24]

sounds like alot of people supported a system they either believed in or were afraid of, and now that system is not protecting or supporting what those people thought they had bought??? i.e. taxes...?

Would love to see some of ya'll on the street or in the bar useing this rhetoric....would be funny but our convo would be great...

i love blueberries...

[Helene West]

When I went to college my classes were 9 out of 10 caucasian. Now the same college is about 30-40% caucasian. I'm a minority group on public transportation. I also have had enough observation and experience to say that many of those replacing caucasians feel quite entitled to do so and I feel I'm being nice in describing some of their attitudes as simply entitlement. Many of them, along with leftists type, seem to believe that there is some natural organic non-manipulated migration going on. Though I believe there will always be immigration and migrations of humans I don't believe that is what has taken place in Europe and now in lesser degrees the U.S. and other (formerly?) white countries. It's anything but 'natural' immigration but a forced agenda by a small ruling class and not for any humane reasons as I've mentioned.

Life is change. It's nothing but change.
Racism is changing just like every other human phenomena.
I hold there is more racism in the present moment (not 50 or 150 years ago) going towards caucasians than coming from them. I go on twitter and there are open calls for white genocide happening in several venues. I don't believe there is enough being discussed in this regard.

I've never seen anyone called out before on this forum the way D Leahy post #44 named me, turiya and sam with implications (shall I say accusation or targeting?) of promoting bigotry. Accusations of racism is the #1 techniques being used in western culture to stifle caucasians from expressing their feelings in what is being done to their countries or their culture. I'm disappointed to see the same tired, trite technique used by him. There's a handful of people I've come to be uninterested in their line of thinking and I largely skip many of their posts. No one is forcing me to read their posts or carry on discussion or debate with them. I'm free to move on. After 7 months being here I never had need to use an Ignore button and I didn't even know if there was one. There is. I think people who are averse to the really free expression of ideas should use it.

[zen deik]

17 Pakistani faces, all sitting or working there, simultaneously turned and stared at me. I was shocked, and probably looked it. Almost instinctively, I turned round and walked out. It was a totally bizarre experience, and one that I'd been quite unprepared for



"It is a natural response to segregate.... Birds of a feather.."

[turiya]

I needed a haircut, so I stopped and parked where I could see there was a hairdresser's. I walked in.

17 Pakistani faces, all sitting or working there, simultaneously turned and stared at me. I was shocked, and probably looked it. Almost instinctively, I turned round and walked out. It was a totally bizarre experience, and one that I'd been quite unprepared for.

Clearly, this was not a hairdresser's for white Englishmen. I was the one out of place there.


Reminds me of the time I was in India - I had always liked traveling 3rd rate buses & trains, staying at small family-run guest houses. I liked it because it allowed me to sink into the culture better - to get closer to the people of the region that I traveled.

Anyways, upon boarding the 3rd class train compartment, there sat about 30-40 - dark-skinned Indians. All eyes staring at me, as I was something they had never seen before - just everyone staring a blank, unblinking stare. It caught me off-guard for an instant moment. Then, I thought... since I got everybody's attention... I thought I would break out & do a little dancing jig... just to keep them entertained and to also allow myself to loosen up. Then, after that, they all seemed to go about their own affairs... for the most part. A few kept staring for a while - cuz, I understood that I was quite a rarity for many so see. Some places in India, it's quite rare to see a light-skinned person.

I also experienced true discrimination sometimes when I would look for a room at various hotels in these out of the way places. It became quite obvious after searching several hotel establishments that they did not want to rent to a caucasian individual. They had regulars that would be offended if they saw them renting to a light-skinned person. I eventually would find a room, though.

But, yeah. I found it a good experience to go through.
People are just people... cultural differences there are... also people in general have been treated badly at some time in their lives for whatever reason, mostly when they are children. And this is when all the deeply-seated attitudes towards other people have been imprinted. Its just human psychology - people are always going to react to something that has happened to them at some time in the past... doesn't necessarily mean it involves you, or myself, personally, at the time when the actual encounter of another individual takes place.

[Chester]

I see many things in this thread that I would like to comment upon with thoughtful posts. But there is one main comment I wish to make first.

I see some great points made by many of these posts. Points which I find myself agreeing with. But I can only agree with them when I look at the matter as a whole and that each point plays a role in creating this whole. My concern with readers and commentators is that they might see their point(s) as a ‘stand alone.’ That if only folks would accept “my point” and then change their thinking which might change their actions… the problem could be solved. IMO all these points have varying degrees of validity and more to my point, if we do not look at them all and adjust from there, the direction we are (and this world is) headed will continue and I doubt any commentator here or reader here wishes for this.

So I will address as much as I can from this more expanded point of view in my upcoming posts but implore folks not to focus solely on point by point, counter point by counter point… but that we somehow start to see things such that we can also see potential steps we could take that might lead to real solutions. I don’t have any illusions that any small group of people can change the world significantly and/or rapidly, but I do not want to teach my children by my example that one should not try or that one should dwell in a reality that we are all forever doomed… that what we do in this life makes no difference, even if that difference is only in realms and lifetimes beyond.

[AutumnW]

Purely a class issue. At the same time Trump was running for office all of this Breitbart material or type of material started flooding youtube. Rage at little white chicken hawks who like to make the planet go **Boom** and destroy whole countries was redirected. How the abused and angry Arab immigrants in Europe, became the enemy, in North America, I'll never know.

The immigration problem in Europe is a huge problem...granted. If there is any conspiracy going on though, it might be wise to characterize it differently. Who benefits from war and ensuing chaos and displacement? International WHITE nationalists/fascists, arms dealers, big banks who finance it.

As freaked out as the French apparently are by a feeling of being overrun in their own country, they haven't voted in le Pen, so far. Many of them would probably like to, but fear the big picture, which is a rise of fascism sweeping the globe.

I think those feeling crowded out of their neighbourhoods deserve a hearing. At the same time, it is in their best interest that they start to listen and listen very carefully, do some research and quit with knee jerk reactions. Their emotions can and will be used against them.

Those who use a megaphone to blast out directives to others to "wake up," need to wake up themselves. Get educated and acquire some historical perspective. Dennis is correct.

[Helene West]

"Those who use a megaphone to blast out directives to others to "wake up," need to wake up themselves. Get educated and acquire some historical perspective..."

Not even a little pot calling the kettle black here?? lol..

Anyhow, good luck to Sam. Hope he gets the satisfaction he was looking for in this thread.

[Dennis Leahy]

...

For all your intelligence and capability your intelligence will do you no good if you do not recognize the intent of the elite.
I think that you passionately believe that you know the intent of the elite, but you don't and I don't. A set of data points means something different to you (and yes, I recognize that what you're saying is a common viewpoint for alternative media sites' members - but that doesn't mean it is correct.) I think you (and many people) give the elite much more credit than is due. If they actually had the power attributed to them, they would already be in complete control and would be unstoppable. Their muscle (the US military and/or paid faux-Muslim mercenaries) is basically pulling off robberies of entire nations, people are scattering, and no one knows or cares where they scattered to. That's my take. The elite are mobsters, not global 3-dimensional chess grandmasters - or it would have already been checkmate. They are not nearly as strong in a coordinated agenda as you attribute to them.



You seem to be apologizing for all the rape and murder the muslims have done in Europe and attribute it to a lack of assimilation.
That's really a BS comment. I am neither apologizing for any rape nor any murder by anyone. That was a terrible thing to say. And you know that I never attributed rape and murder to lack of assimilation. Those are baseless accusations. If I said something you disagree with, quote it back, in context. Don't just make **** up.



The globalists want a ONE WORLD ORDER and in order to get it they have to DESTROY THE MIDDLE CLASS.
Destroying America and the European countries that have a decent standard of living is what they are doing now and it is pretty transparent.

Sorry, but this sounds like something hyperbolic out of the movie Reefer Madness. Your premise makes no sense. I think that you don't understand our enemy and our enemy's network, and you attribute a nearly magical power to them. They are just the elite scum that own everything, and they skim off of as many different transactions on the planet as possible. They are thugs - killing, torturing, robbing, raping, and pillaging is their modus operandi. If you have ever seen a visual representation of "the elite" network (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0025995), it should be apparent that the vast, vast majority of the elite do not want to destroy the middle class that are a dependable supply of cashflow - the lifeblood of the elite's corporations. In fact, the giant monetary/economic collapse we are all expecting will greatly damage and even completely destroy many corporations and corporate empires, so that "planned monetary collapse" really only helps out the international banking cartel/Families. Then it makes sense that there would be infighting among the elite, and not any unified agenda (other than to keep the gravy train rolling, and to continue the aforementioned scratching of each other's backs.) Note that many corporate boards have members of other corporations on them. It's a massive, global network, not really the simple pyramidal shape we might want to imagine the "elite" to be.



For you to not see this means for all your capability you are blind for the most part.
I see you as too gullible (ingesting too much alt-groupthink on this issue) and



Do you really think the elite give a rat's ass for the muslim refugees and their well being?
No, I don't, and I never said they do. The people fleeing are the ones that ducked elite American bullets and elite American bombs, remember? When did I say that the elite cared about anyone but themselves? They are sociopaths.

You're portraying the opposite message from the elite-controlled media than reality - with anti-Muslim sentiment (and pro-US and pro-NATO ) being pumped from almost all media, with the exception being media for democrats (like MSNBC madcow and Huffington Post) using trump's anti-Muslim immigration policies and rhetoric in their propaganda campaign to laud the DNC and demonize trump, (who - IMO - is a moronic, narcissistic gasbag, not a demon.) Which media are giving rape and murder a pass?



Why would the elite have the main stream media feigning such sympathy if not for an agenda?
You are correct in stating that 9/11 was completely staged and done by US insiders not a muslim contingency such as Al Queda, but the same cabal who orchestrated 9/11 never left power and it is quite evident in the actions of Obama. It was obvious in Hillary's stated agenda and it is obvious now that they have steered Trump into accomplishing their goals as well.
So why would these 9/11 conspirators want muslims in the western countries? This is all orchestration and I plead with you to exercise detachment and not succumb to the ploys for pity as communicated by the main stream media which we know is controlled 100% by the CIA who in turn are controlled 100% by the banking elite.
Why are all the main stream media channels broadcasting the same message? This should be a major red flag for you.

If there are more Muslims scattered around the planet, mixed-in with non-Muslims, the psychopaths running their phony, eternal, war on terror ruse would have an easier time scaring everyone, I suppose, since they have achieved their propaganda goal of implanting the meme: Muslims=terrorists to keep their war going forever. Anyone propping-up that meme is helping the terrorists (and by "terrorists" I do mean the USA, INC. and its affiliated uber-mobsters.)

And it is healthy to say "I don't know" when we don't know.

[Chester]

"Those who use a megaphone to blast out directives to others to "wake up," need to wake up themselves. Get educated and acquire some historical perspective..."

Not even a little pot calling the kettle black here?? lol..

Anyhow, good luck to Sam. Hope he gets the satisfaction he was looking for in this thread.

Helene, I have a great appreciation for and understanding about many of the views you expressed. I also understand that many folks take much of their views from a slice of history. But I also see that not only is a slice in time limited, but when one looks at a slice in time from the experiential perspective of someone having their experience in only one part of the current planet we share, then I also see thay conclusions may not take into account other experiences, other histories and especially may not be considering what new dynamic we might create.

In fact, the intent of this thread (stated many times and yet not yet grasped) is to consider solutions... and it seems to me that if we cannot find a grand common ground from which we might agree (a common ground that embraces all these various sub issues, admits them, looks at why we experience them) and where we agree that we would all like to see a better world for all, then we once again approve the perhaps mythical (or perhaps not) elite who view us all as idiots.

[AutumnW]

"Those who use a megaphone to blast out directives to others to "wake up," need to wake up themselves. Get educated and acquire some historical perspective..."

Not even a little pot calling the kettle black here?? lol..

Anyhow, good luck to Sam. Hope he gets the satisfaction he was looking for in this thread.

I find the biggest megaphones are manned by those who have a bit of the big picture, extrapolate far too much from their tiny piece of reality. The alt right end up over interpreting -- weaving a web of 'logic' out of their dot connecting. Alex Jones is like a screaming spider on acid. His web starts off making sense and then becomes insane.

Nevertheless everybody's experience need to be taken into account, even of the conclusions they draw are off the mark.

[Chester]

In addressing Dennis Leahy's post #67 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?97318-Trump-Illegal-immigration-Sam-s-view&p=1149922&viewfull=1#post1149922) above, I have learned (though I will not speak for anyone else) that it is far wiser for me to begin with "I don't know" than any other place. Dennis emphasized this in that post and I agree.

What I have also found helpful in my career as an odds making consultant is that it is very important to consider all possibilities. Sometimes the possibility set includes combinations of possibilities as the best, most accurate description of a result or a reality. In addition there may be the need to include "none of the above" in a set of possibilities (to account for the unforeseen).

It seems to me that DNA has looked at the matter over DNA's years of worldly experience and sees it like this - "If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, smells like a duck, flies like a duck... then it is probably a duck." And of course that duck fits what he has concluded. I cannot disagree with him as I see this scenario as a very real possibility.

I cannot fault someone for forming a pretty solid "odds" rating such as DNA appears to have concluded which may be, from DNA's perspective... over 90% accurate and maybe more like 99.9%.

To live life is to take risks, form judgments and act on them, etc. And surely folks can see no two people may agree to the exact same degree on everything much less anything much less something as complex as "who is running the world, how are they doing it and why."

But I still don't understand how we allow these differences of degree and perhaps in some cases a great degree to stop us from exploring solutions. I just don't get it.

One question I have for Dennis.

Dennis, your view appears to me to be quite parsimonious and thus as an odds maker, I would make odds higher that your description of how the world works is more likely accurate yet then we have the testimony of the Dutch financial guy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO4rAYk-420) that has just started sweeping across the internet where this guy's testimony is being judged by many folks I respect as quite likely genuine and also, quite likely very accurate.

And so why I bring this up is that the gentleman, Ronald Bernard, that gave this testimony shared what has been widely discussed in the alternative community - that a small (according to his words "8,000 to 8,500) group of elite are immersed in the practice of a religion which some here would call Satanism and what he called Liciferianism.

And so my question to myself (not just when I listened to this interview) is... are these practices all and only for the purpose of creating the circular blackmail "mutual guns to the head of each other" network which may ensure a high degree of secrecy for those who get close to the top or for those who enter these top levels and/or is there also a supernatural advantage folks perceive they gain through the practices of their "religion?"

Are you open minded that there may indeed be a supernatural component here that should be considered as possible and thus if so, should be handicapped?

And then finally... if you might be open minded to this, is it possible there be "other worldly beings" involved?

And then finally, if you might be open minded as to that, is it possible that there might be other worldly beings who are actually and only represented by one manifestation of an other worldly group of the same beings and who remain disguised by their ability to create the belief there are many different types and densities of beings... and perhaps even the belief that there is a 'head bad guy' such as "Satan" or "Lucifer" or any other convenient name we might use as a pointer to a single being?

Why I ask all this is because I truly wish to know what you might think is possible and also maybe even what odds you might make about each possibility, branch of possibilities and/or of other possibilities that may exist.

I ask this because at the level of just human beings and our shared 3D reality, I consider what you share and I have made odds very high you have put a great deal of thought into this and have a pretty good description with a bit of explanation, at least at this 3D level, of what is actually going on here on Earth.

[Chester]

"Those who use a megaphone to blast out directives to others to "wake up," need to wake up themselves. Get educated and acquire some historical perspective..."

Not even a little pot calling the kettle black here?? lol..

Anyhow, good luck to Sam. Hope he gets the satisfaction he was looking for in this thread.

I find the biggest megaphones are manned by those who have a bit of the big picture, extrapolate far too much from their tiny piece of reality. The alt right end up over interpreting -- weaving a web of 'logic' out of their dot connecting. Alex Jones is like a screaming spider on acid. His web starts off making sense and then becomes insane.

Nevertheless everybody's experience need to be taken into account, even of the conclusions they draw are off the mark.

Yes... agree that everybody's experience need to be taken into account and same with their interpretations of their experiences and the world views they currently hold. Yet discussions are derailed when we name call and label. I know I have done my fair share of labeling and so do not think I am not looking into my own mirror when I say this.

[AutumnW]

Sam, I hope you don't mind an interjection here. There are VIP's -- Very Important Perverts-- in high positions and there has been cover up activity, on the part of others in power. That to most people, is a given.

How do you get from there to the idea that Ronald Bernard is correct? I want to understand because it appears these kinds of leaps in logic helped elect Trump.

[Desire]

9ofClubs
when you talk about Canada I see Canada and Canadians would remain where they are, STAY in place. They would not be moving to The US. That is a big difference from moving every one here to the US keeping them in their own space. Then it would be up to the US to accept them , and instruct them in our way of life if that is what THEY wanted to do.. Not every Country wants to be a part of the US you know. There are those Counties that like things just the way they are.

[AutumnW]

"Those who use a megaphone to blast out directives to others to "wake up," need to wake up themselves. Get educated and acquire some historical perspective..."

Not even a little pot calling the kettle black here?? lol..

Anyhow, good luck to Sam. Hope he gets the satisfaction he was looking for in this thread.

I find the biggest megaphones are manned by those who have a bit of the big picture, extrapolate far too much from their tiny piece of reality. The alt right end up over interpreting -- weaving a web of 'logic' out of their dot connecting. Alex Jones is like a screaming spider on acid. His web starts off making sense and then becomes insane.

Nevertheless everybody's experience need to be taken into account, even of the conclusions they draw are off the mark.

Yes... agree that everybody's experience need to be taken into account and same with their interpretations of their experiences and the world views they currently hold. Yet discussions are derailed when we name call and label. I know I have done my fair share of lebeling and so do not think I am not looking into my own mirror when I say this.

We all label for the sake of convenience. It's not always insulting, though it may not be exactly deifying either! I can respect those who have an issue with illegal immigration, if they feel their livelihood is threatened by those who are being taken advantage of by employers. But here is the difference in perspective.

Those who complain bitterly about illegal Chicanos handily ignore the people, often white employers, who hire them. Why is anger directed at people who are desperate to survive and aimed away from those who employ them?

[Atlas]

Refugees & the Future of Peace
688FJQLzeNM

[Dennis Leahy]

...
One question I have for Dennis.

Dennis, your view appears to me to be quite parsimonious ...
...

I'm not sure about your use of the word 'parsimonious', in the context you're using it. Parsimonious means 'frugal.'

Anyway, sure, I am open to possibilities - I just don't elevate them to 'probabilities.'

Again, I don't know. At least I know that I don't know. My worldview is wrong - it HAS to be, because I am in the dark about so much that is hidden from me. My concept of "the Elite" is wrong for the same reason. Worst of all, there are probably tidbits of the truth about the Elite mixed in with a massive amount of disinformation and conjecture from researchers that sincerely believe that they know the whole truth, so even the pool of knowledge is polluted. Best guess from the best researcher is still just a guess.

Honestly, I consider anything I would write about the inner workings of the Elite to be at best a notch or two below an educated guess, because the missing data doesn't even allow me to make an educated guess. I think I am just one of the few to admit that. But, I'll offer my thoughts for what it's worth/worthless:

From my (limited) research, it appears to me that the group of people that I generally call "the Elite" are more complex and less organized than the simplistic view I held years ago. I had visualized a simple pyramid-shaped (or as John Perkins notes, a pyramid with a tall spire) hierarchical structure. I envisioned a top tier occupied by a single man (I snarkily referred to earlier as "Megalo Don", the top Global Mafia Don.) I later dismissed that notion, and replaced it with the idea of a small cluster of men - themselves representing their empires/"Families"/families, and unified only in limitless global greed and thirst for power - and a handshake (or a board seat) to 'work the system' together. I think there are a few highly dangerous factions of the Elite, such as the militaristic, corporatist, imperialists commanding the US military and what appears to be a different faction commanding the CIA/Deep State covert military. These Elite factions appear not to all be working together towards the exact same agenda.

My best guess on the satanic stuff within the Elite is that some of them are "all in" (and believe it confers magical powers) and most of the rest of the attendees at satanic rituals and sacrifices show up because they are expected to and their absence would be seen as suspicious. Like the Dutch guy that enjoyed the naked women at the Elite satanic parties, but balked at witnessing human sacrifice, was probably seen as suspicious by the group (and I think the Dutch guy is lucky to still be alive and talking about it.) Yes, I do believe there is an immense amount of blackmail/threats used to glue the perps and witnesses together, to keep the dark secrets. And, I think a lot of politicians have been blackmailed (with pedophilia probably used as the main blackmail tool) as well.

I think there is a strong possibility that shifting the seemingly inhuman level of evil away from humans and onto "aliens" or even "archons" is a "deus ex machina" cop-out. There is no crime in history that would be impossible for humans to perpetrate. With zero personal experience with "aliens", I have no idea what their agenda is. Reading Wade Frazier's work convinces me that actual free-energy technology is so transformative that it would end any sort of logical reason for aliens to come and plunder Earth. And why would aliens allow the spoils of planetary war that they are orchestrating to go into the coffers of the banks and "defense" contractors? I suspect that some ET technology has been reverse-engineered, but not that ETs are in control of Earth.

See, I told you it was worthless.

[Helene West]

"Those who use a megaphone to blast out directives to others to "wake up," need to wake up themselves. Get educated and acquire some historical perspective..."

Not even a little pot calling the kettle black here?? lol..

Anyhow, good luck to Sam. Hope he gets the satisfaction he was looking for in this thread.

Helene, I have a great appreciation for and understating about many of the views you expressed. I also understand that many folks take much of their views from a slice of history. But I also see that not onlyy is a slice in time limited, but when one looks at a slice in time from the experiential perspective of someone having their experience in only one part of the current planet we share, then I also see thay conclusions may not take into account other experiences, other histories and especially may not be considering what new dynamic we might create.

In fact, the intent of this thread (stated many times and yet not yet grasped) is to consider solutions... and it seems to me that if we cannot find a grand common ground from which we might agree (a common ground that embraces all these various sub issues, admits them, looks at why we experience them) and where we agree that we would all like to see a better world for all, then we once again approve the perhaps mythical (or perhaps not) elite who view us all as idiots.

I agree Sam but those left of center dominate most of the media, are bullying and threatening those differing from themselves in our universities and succeed in a certain degree of censorship in our social media. I speak for those who I feel don't have much of a voice today. If you're caucasian you have to be in your late '50s and older to have known a childhood that was free of taking in messages that you are inherently a bad person. That is racism. When demographics change there will be a corresponding change in cultural phenomena and the changes in racism is naturally one of them. But racism especially in the last decade or so has been a racket. Those who were oppressed in the past are loathe to give up their oppressed status or at least make room on the oppression stage it has worked well for them. The underclass of whites, that is the non-elite class, which are the majority, are not being exempt from cultural genocide, we are merely last on the list. Trying to shut us up by use of the weaponized word 'racism' is going to prove to be more and more obsolete and not reflective of Today's society..
You want solutions. Read turiya's post today where the illegals are saying they don't care anymore about being citizens, that is not even their goal anymore. People cannot fathom the end of america, human normalcy bias is too strong.

[Chester]

Sam, I hope you don't mind an interjection here. There are VIP's -- Very Important Perverts-- in high positions and there has been cover up activity, on the part of others in power. That to most people, is a given.

How do you get from there to the idea that Ronald Bernard is correct? I want to understand because it appears these kinds of leaps in logic helped elect Trump.

Hi, I would need specifics to try and respond.

What I can say is this - Based on what Ronald Bernard said in the interview and based on a great deal of other testimonies and based on the theory that, for example, Washington is dominated by politicians who are exposed to blackmail either because they were foolish or because they enjoy sexual acts society condemns and based on the possibility that many of these folks are actively involved in dark religious practices why cannot all these things be mostly or greatly true?

And just for the record, I am very glad Trump got elected. No less now than I was when it happened.

[TargeT]

Trying to shut us up by use of the weaponized word 'racism' is going to prove to be more and more obsolete and not reflective of Today's society..

gsTlOm1iknc

I personally think it's ridiculous, but then I see some of the "everything's racist" meme being repeated here on this very forum. I can't help but think it has something to do with "victim" archetype and it's constant companion the "savior" archetype.. these seem to be very attractive mantels for humans to function under, even if logic and rationality are sacrificed.

[Chester]

Helene, I have a great appreciation for and understanding about many of the views you expressed. I also understand that many folks take much of their views from a slice of history. But I also see that not only is a slice in time limited, but when one looks at a slice in time from the experiential perspective of someone having their experience in only one part of the current planet we share, then I also see thay conclusions may not take into account other experiences, other histories and especially may not be considering what new dynamic we might create.

In fact, the intent of this thread (stated many times and yet not yet grasped) is to consider solutions... and it seems to me that if we cannot find a grand common ground from which we might agree (a common ground that embraces all these various sub issues, admits them, looks at why we experience them) and where we agree that we would all like to see a better world for all, then we once again approve the perhaps mythical (or perhaps not) elite who view us all as idiots.

I agree Sam but those left of center dominate most of the media, are bullying and threatening those differing from themselves in our universities and succeed in a certain degree of censorship in our social media. I speak for those who I feel don't have much of a voice today. If you're caucasian you have to be in your late '50s and older to have known a childhood that was free of taking in messages that you are inherently a bad person. That is racism. When demographics change there will be a corresponding change in cultural phenomena and the changes in racism is naturally one of them. But racism especially in the last decade or so has been a racket.

Those who were oppressed in the past are loathe to give up their oppressed status or at least make room on the oppression stage it has worked well for them. The underclass of whites, that is the non-elite class, which are the majority, are not being exempt from cultural genocide, we are merely last on the list. Trying to shut us up by use of the weaponized word 'racism' is going to prove to be more and more obsolete and not reflective of Today's society..

You want solutions. Read turiya's post today where the illegals are saying they don't care anymore about being citizens, that is not even their goal anymore. People cannot fathom the end of america, human normalcy bias is too strong.

Hi Helene - first I apologize that I submitted my first reply to you without proofreading it and I made an error. I erroneously wrote "understating" instead of "understanding" in my reply. It makes a big difference.

Anyways,

I agree that the current iteration of the MSM is loaded up with "left of center" idealogues. I wouldn't argue with all the verifiable data that has come out about that.

I agree that there is the worst bullying effort I have ever seen in my lifetime with regards to expression of views (which is usually done verbally - thus falls under the free speech protections). But I see "the gang up" is by leftists, a huge percentage of the media, a huge percentage of college professors and teachers at other educational levels, most professional bureaucrats, many multi-national corporations with political ties to lefty politicians and right politicians who will do their bidding regardless of how that bidding goes against the lable's espoused ideology, democratic politicians, RINO "repupublicans," NEOCons and NEOLibs, some of the deep state actors embedded in the intelligence agencies who lean left or are directly associated with the left, many deep state actors who may hold non liberal values but are far more willing to remain a part of their team than not so stay silent, those who identify themselves as democrats or socialists, vote democrat or would have voted for Bernie, those who are hawks and vote for the most hawkish candidate, those who identify as Republicans and so vote that way regardless of what their candidate stands for and with regards to the overt left... many of these clowns are supported by folks like and including George Soros, et al. and to the tune of hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars. And I left many off the list but those are the ones that come to my head.

I agree racism has been a racket but for far longer than a decade, especially within the Black community. Blacks who pretend to be the champion for Blacks who, in reality, sell out Blacks by fooling the vulnerable Blacks and cashing in on it either by achieving political success or by heading organizations that pretend to help Blacks. Note I don't say "African American" because my black friends tell me they think it is stupid to waste six more syllables to verbally point to the same thing. I have not even touched other ethnically associated organizations and movements, but so many play the same game whereas I have noticed one pretty interesting exception. There's significantly less of this within the Asian ethnic communities and interestingly, the documented success of ethnically Asian youth in schools (grades) and jobs (getting more and being paid more) tells the tale and you would think that if the media really had the best interests of the public in mind, they would highlight this fact, yes?

Please, point out Turiya's post as I would like to read what he wrote that you are referring to. I cannot recall reading a post of his that stated that illegals don't care anymore about being citizens (and where I assume this would include "being legal" such as a legal resident or in the US legally). And with regards to whether more or less care about any of that today, I care that folks here in the United States are here legally just the same as the government and a significant amount of the citizenry of a good two dozen countries I have visited extensively and in some cases lived in care about folks being in their country legally. The only exception to this I have experienced is when someone wealthy brings job opportunities to locals in some of these countries... in those cases, the people don't care about their employer's legal status all that much.

[Chester]

...
One question I have for Dennis.

Dennis, your view appears to me to be quite parsimonious ...
...

I'm not sure about your use of the word 'parsimonious', in the context you're using it. Parsimonious means 'frugal.'

Anyway, sure, I am open to possibilities - I just don't elevate them to 'probabilities.'

Again, I don't know. At least I know that I don't know. My worldview is wrong - it HAS to be, because I am in the dark about so much that is hidden from me. My concept of "the Elite" is wrong for the same reason. Worst of all, there are probably tidbits of the truth about the Elite mixed in with a massive amount of disinformation and conjecture from researchers that sincerely believe that they know the whole truth, so even the pool of knowledge is polluted. Best guess from the best researcher is still just a guess.

Honestly, I consider anything I would write about the inner workings of the Elite to be at best a notch or two below an educated guess, because the missing data doesn't even allow me to make an educated guess. I think I am just one of the few to admit that. But, I'll offer my thoughts for what it's worth/worthless:

From my (limited) research, it appears to me that the group of people that I generally call "the Elite" are more complex and less organized than the simplistic view I held years ago. I had visualized a simple pyramid-shaped (or as John Perkins notes, a pyramid with a tall spire) hierarchical structure. I envisioned a top tier occupied by a single man (I snarkily referred to earlier as "Megalo Don", the top Global Mafia Don.) I later dismissed that notion, and replaced it with the idea of a small cluster of men - themselves representing their empires/"Families"/families, and unified only in limitless global greed and thirst for power - and a handshake (or a board seat) to 'work the system' together. I think there are a few highly dangerous factions of the Elite, such as the militaristic, corporatist, imperialists commanding the US military and what appears to be a different faction commanding the CIA/Deep State covert military. These Elite factions appear not to all be working together towards the exact same agenda.

My best guess on the satanic stuff within the Elite is that some of them are "all in" (and believe it confers magical powers) and most of the rest of the attendees at satanic rituals and sacrifices show up because they are expected to and their absence would be seen as suspicious. Like the Dutch guy that enjoyed the naked women at the Elite satanic parties, but balked at witnessing human sacrifice, was probably seen as suspicious by the group (and I think the Dutch guy is lucky to still be alive and talking about it.) Yes, I do believe there is an immense amount of blackmail/threats used to glue the perps and witnesses together, to keep the dark secrets. And, I think a lot of politicians have been blackmailed (with pedophilia probably used as the main blackmail tool) as well.

I think there is a strong possibility that shifting the seemingly inhuman level of evil away from humans and onto "aliens" or even "archons" is a "deus ex machina" cop-out. There is no crime in history that would be impossible for humans to perpetrate. With zero personal experience with "aliens", I have no idea what their agenda is. Reading Wade Frasiers work convinces me that actual free-energy technology is so transformative that it would end any sort of logical reason for aliens to come and plunder Earth. And why would aliens allow the spoils of planetary war that they are orchestrating to go into the coffers of the banks and "defense" contractors? I suspect that some ET technology has been reverse-engineered, but not that ETs are in control of Earth.

See, I told you it was worthless.

POW! I suddenly felt I just met a brother from another mother... Your entire "world view" is almost exactly the same view I now hold with but perhaps one more thing I would add in expressing mine and that is this -

My current metaphysical, cosmological world view allows for this - (the picture you shared)... this much more greatly detailed and far more closer to home world view - to exist within my more expanded view best labeled to be monistic idealism. I can imagine that you might also have an expanded view and yet just didn't share it but perhaps not. Regardless, not only do I see all that you wrote about almost exactly as you do, but I am also (and only recently... say in the last year or so) at about the same levels of "I don't know" as you expressed.

The only place where I sense an obvious difference is in where we might land on the political spectrum. Note I am glad Trump won both now and when he did. But it might surprise folks as to why and perhaps someone will ask.

My use of the word "parsimonious" was a compliment in the way I meant it which simply means that I saw the picture you paint to follow the protocols of Occam's Razor - see here (http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/occam.html).

[Helene West]

Sam
Just look through his posts for today in Transition into Trump, you'll see it.
Anyway, upon more reflection of your stated desire for 'solutions' and since I believe solutions weren't/aren't part of the plans of those who rule us I'll be bowing out of this thread with all due respect to your big heart. There are those in congress who are capable of making some good changes but congress is very large, very divided and very bought off. I think I made it plain what I feel much of immigration today is about. It's so threatening to some here was a censorship alert! lol. And don't take it as you have previously that some of us feel hopeless that wasn't true. I'm more of a pessimist than many but if I felt hopeless I wouldn't vote nor be participating in a forum like this. I'd be mumbling to myself alone with a bottle of jack daniels and that ain't moi...

[Atlas]

post removed

[zen deik]

When I hear someone say politically incorrect... Or racist... I think someone has had their inferiority button pushed... Or an over compensation for some unearned burden of guilt...you cannot legislate morality.... Or racism away...

[DNA]

I think that you passionately believe that you know the intent of the elite, but you don't and I don't.
Dr. John Coleman told us what the elite were doing in 1993. Dr. John Coleman told us that the middle class would be under constant attack due to a New World Order that was being implemented and that the greatest obstacle would be the American Middle Class. He went on to say how the Clintons were going to do their best to destroy the American Middle Class and how prophetic he looks now. Alex Jones and David Icke both owe a lot of their knowledge to Dr. John Coleman.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRqx1YgIBMw
rRqx1YgIBMw
Combined with this we have the testimonies of Phil Schnieder who tells us the exact same things in terms of a One World Government that is the goal of these globalists and the destruction of the United States. Folks can debate the worthiness of Phil's UFO information but I've always felt he incapsulated the intent of the elite rather well.
And I 100% believe that he helped build underground cities that have the sole functions of allowing the elite a home that is fortified against what is intended for the rest of us.





A set of data points means something different to you (and yes, I recognize that what you're saying is a common viewpoint for alternative media sites' members - but that doesn't mean it is correct.) I think you (and many people) give the elite much more credit than is due. If they actually had the power attributed to them, they would already be in complete control and would be unstoppable. Their muscle (the US military and/or paid faux-Muslim mercenaries) is basically pulling off robberies of entire nations, people are scattering, and no one knows or cares where they scattered to. That's my take. The elite are mobsters, not global 3-dimensional chess grandmasters - or it would have already been checkmate. They are not nearly as strong in a coordinated agenda as you attribute to them.
People are not just scattering and this is very important so try to pay attention here.
The United States know how to invade a country and leave it in well enough shape to care and fend for itself. They did this with Japan in WWII.
Many people have leveled much needed criticism at Donald Rumsfield, Dick Cheney and George W Bush for having destroyed Iraq while not maintaining or policing the country. They CREATED a refugee situation. Why would they do this?
DynCorp and Haloburtion were both busted in the late 90's participating in human trafficking.WHAT? Yes human trafficking, and here is Cynthia McKinney a US Rep grilling Donald Rumsfield on how and why the USA is still employing contractors who have been caught smuggling women and children via a human trafficking operation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Px1t1-a9uxk&t=206s
Here is what is going on.
When the USA invades a country like they were caught doing in Yogoslavia, they set up orphanages and the like and prepare those children who are then shipped on boats owned by contractors. These children are sold to pedophile networks in the United States and Europe.
These children are considered expendible, as such they are tortured beyond the realms we would think possible until their complicance is absolute and they are usually disposed of within a couple of years.
Why do I mention all of this.
Because they had no use for the men until now.
Now, just as human trafficking was one of their incentives for invading countries in the middle east, the exportation of agent provacatures into countries like the USA and Europe are now on that incentive list.






You seem to be apologizing for all the rape and murder the muslims have done in Europe and attribute it to a lack of assimilation.
That's really a BS comment. I am neither apologizing for any rape nor any murder by anyone. That was a terrible thing to say. And you know that I never attributed rape and murder to lack of assimilation. Those are baseless accusations. If I said something you disagree with, quote it back, in context. Don't just make **** up.

Your comment here is rather dismissive. As if there is no rape and murder going on Europe due to their recent Muslim influx.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUDf9YOgCQI
CUDf9YOgCQI
As we see in France the reason far right candidates are winning in the poles is because of the refugee problem they don't want anymore to do with.
Now if France and Sweden and Germany are having this much of a problem with muslims raping and murdering how do you think the USA is going to do? The USA is responsible for the refugee problem in the first place, along with killing millions and millions of Muslims.



The globalists want a ONE WORLD ORDER and in order to get it they have to DESTROY THE MIDDLE CLASS.
Destroying America and the European countries that have a decent standard of living is what they are doing now and it is pretty transparent.

Sorry, but this sounds like something hyperbolic out of the movie Reefer Madness. Your premise makes no sense.
That is the kind of argument I would expect out of a disrespectful news correspondant like Bill O'Reilly. This is the kind of response that is no longer looking for a healthy information exchange but instead is more concerned with being right and slandering anyone with a dissenting opinion.
There are many on this forum who agree with my bolded text above, and when you slander me in this context you are slandering a large portion of the Avalon forum.


I think that you don't understand our enemy and our enemy's network, and you attribute a nearly magical power to them.
I'm being honest when I say this. I wish I was as naïve as you are. To live carefree and worry free due to an extreme lack of understanding of the world would be welcoming compared with knowing the truth. You've never been on the Avalon pizza-gate threads and I don't blame you, they are a freaking bummer.
But here is the Truth.


The elite practice pedophilia and child sacrifice to insure the silence and cooperation of their members. The elite also believe, they actually believe that there is a dark entity that they worship and perform regular sacrifices to in order to insure that entity's good favor. This maneuver which has been co-opted by the CIA insures that the person who has perpetuated in such acts is indeed someone who will always keep their mouth shut and do what they are told. This isn't done all honest like. As a member of the elite they spring this on you. One day you are laughing and cavorting it up at a bohemian grove ceremony worshiping the idol Moloch and then the next time they just spring this on you with the caveat that if you try and weasel out of this and or tell anybody about it you will be killed.


They are just the elite scum that own everything, and they skim off of as many different transactions on the planet as possible. They are thugs - killing, torturing, robbing, raping, and pillaging is their modus operandi. If you have ever seen a visual representation of "the elite" network (http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0025995), it should be apparent that the vast, vast majority of the elite do not want to destroy the middle class that are a dependable supply of cashflow -
Again you are not doing your homework.
The Georgia Guidestones state to keep the population of the world under 500,000,000.
Conversely this is exactly what the elite want to reduce the population of the planet to.
This is what the REPORT FROM IRON MOUNTAIN states.
That the carrying capacity of the earth has been reached in so far as human beings are concerned and if the human race is to survive then the earth's human population has to be severely culled.
This is why we have GMO's, vaccines, pesticides, preservatives and flouride seriously altering the possible life span of human beings and causing disease.
Kevin Trudeau stated in a book that the elite wish to cull the population of the earth and that they are doing so with poisoned food and poisoned pharmaceutical medicines in order to accomplish this. His only recommendation to fight this was to eat Organic food. He got ten years in prison for this. http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-kevin-trudeau-sentenced-20140317-story.html
Bill Gates has been pushing for a Eugenics program unapologetically.
You see Greed comes in all forms.
You have a very limited idea of Greed if you think it can only be demonstrated though the constant accumulation of money.
When faced with the prospect that you will have no more descendents, no living heirs to spend your money because the carrying capacity of the world can no longer support the resource exhaustive human being, then your greed is focused on making sure YOUR desendents will live and also YOUR legacy. Oh by the way here is David Icke talking about agenda 21 "the plan to kill you". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMeXSlGJZYc&t=1663s








For you to not see this means for all your capability you are blind for the most part.
I see you as too gullible (ingesting too much alt-groupthink on this issue) and
Two of Project Avalon's most pertinent interviews would disagree with you.
Pete Peterson and Jane Burgemiester both have views that run parallel to mine.
And for that matter, I hardly think Bill lives in Equador for the coconuts, but I'll let him speak for himself.




Do you really think the elite give a rat's ass for the muslim refugees and their well being?
No, I don't, and I never said they do. The people fleeing are the ones that ducked elite American bullets and elite American bombs, remember? When did I say that the elite cared about anyone but themselves? They are sociopaths.
When you agreed with the mainstream media's take that Muslim refugees should be welcomed into the USA with open arms you agreed with the Elite.


You're portraying the opposite message from the elite-controlled media than reality - with anti-Muslim sentiment (and pro-US and pro-NATO ) being pumped from almost all media, Then why is it no longer acceptable to state the phrase "muslim extremism" in the media? And this across various nations, even Merkel rolled her eyes at Trump when he stated Muslim Extremism because the elite have been pushing a new agenda in so far as equating labeling someone a Muslim extremist as to make them a racist.




Why would the elite have the main stream media feigning such sympathy if not for an agenda?
You are correct in stating that 9/11 was completely staged and done by US insiders not a muslim contingency such as Al Queda, but the same cabal who orchestrated 9/11 never left power and it is quite evident in the actions of Obama. It was obvious in Hillary's stated agenda and it is obvious now that they have steered Trump into accomplishing their goals as well.
So why would these 9/11 conspirators want muslims in the western countries? This is all orchestration and I plead with you to exercise detachment and not succumb to the ploys for pity as communicated by the main stream media which we know is controlled 100% by the CIA who in turn are controlled 100% by the banking elite.
Why are all the main stream media channels broadcasting the same message? This should be a major red flag for you.
If there are more Muslims scattered around the planet, mixed-in with non-Muslims, the psychopaths running their phony, eternal, war on terror ruse would have an easier time scaring everyone, I suppose, since they have achieved their propaganda goal of implanting the meme: Muslims=terrorists to keep their war going forever.
You are not keeping up with the times. That was a decade ago. Why did the USA invade Iraq? Why did the USA invade Libya? Because they were instilling regime change for THE PEOPLE. They don't need an ISIS boogeyman anymore because people believe EVERTHING the mainstream media tells them.



Anyone propping-up that meme is helping the terrorists (and by "terrorists" I do mean the USA, INC. and its affiliated uber-mobsters.)
Not so, and that is the same kind of rhetoric George W Bush used when stating "you are either with us or against us".
I'm acknowledging a truth. That the USA has bombed the hell out of the Muslim world and as such they have sowed not a few seeds of discontent. This discontent will be unleashed should we move hundreds of thousands of angry recently bombed Muslim men into our country.

[Chester]

Sam
Just look through his posts for today in Transition into Trump, you'll see it.
Anyway, upon more reflection of your stated desire for 'solutions' and since I believe solutions weren't/aren't part of the plans of those who rule us I'll be bowing out of this thread with all due respect to your big heart. There are those in congress who are capable of making some good changes but congress is very large, very divided and very bought off. I think I made it plain what I feel much of immigration today is about. It's so threatening to some here was a censorship alert! lol. And don't take it as you have previously that some of us feel hopeless that wasn't true. I'm more of a pessimist than many but if I felt hopeless I wouldn't vote nor be participating in a forum like this. I'd be mumbling to myself alone with a bottle of jack daniels and that ain't moi...

Thanks Helene and thanks for showing me the exact place for the information you mentioned earlier. I will be referring to it in an upcoming post - here's the source...

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/04/30/may-day-illegal-aliens-and-allies-vow-biggest-workers-strike-in-over-a-decade/

Please come back anytime but also, I understand your desire to leave the thread for now and honor your wish to do so though I will miss you.

[DNA]

I think you (and many people) give the elite much more credit than is due...

I think that you don't understand our enemy and our enemy's network, and you attribute a nearly magical power to them...


I wish to empathize with your position. Our back and forth has conveyed an antagonistic tone and I apologize for allowing myself to dip so. I honestly mean no disrespect and your argument here is identical to the argument I had ten or so years ago so I completely understand your points here.
Not only do the elite use pedophilia and human sacrifice to insure an almost unimaginable loyalty though out their structure there is something more than that.
The elite do not have to actually be geniuses to take and use genius almost to an other wordly level in so far as implementing their manipulation of the masses.
The elite have been responsible for manipulating the masses based on privately funded research for decades. The Kinsey reports on human sexuality are an example of this. Funded almost entirely by the Rockefellers the Kinsey reports are responsible for portraying sex in a very skewed and unathentic light being as a large number of their sample base were convicted incarcerated felons in prison who were mostly sociopaths.
Further more the elite fund a college known as THE TAVISTOCK INSTITUTE OF HUMAN RELATIONS.
Research is done on how to manipulate the masses to create a desired effect. Research such as mass-brainwashing.
So my point is, that elite are capable of buying genius plans to implement though research grants and the like.
Jeff Rense and Dr. John Coleman discuss this in the link below.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svEVXCXICow&t=530s

[Gemma13]

They CREATED a refugee situation. Why would they do this?


Never just “one” MO imho. And of course refugees provide multiple opportunities for detestable individuals/groups to capitalize on. Always short and long term MO’s. A “thought” re a long term MO supporting global domination agenda. (An agenda which of course would intelligently have multiple strategies on the chess board to ensure success, with psychology, imo, being a more powerful weapon than military muscle when we are no longer living in a world where those with “guns” can literally take over a country who only have “swords” when weaponry threat for colonization is currently generally at a global stale-mate due to retaliatory repercussions.)

Resources! In this case - Human Resource Bait! It would be exceedingly difficult to knock on someone’s door and “convert” them within their own home/family/culture (without physical/violent manipulation) and the few that you may succeed with have very little power attempting to then convert the community.

A percentage of refugees will become integrated, educated, socially successful, and fully indoctrinated into the Western World’s Cultural Ideologies. Within a few generations they (and their offspring) will be “prime candidates/ambassadors” to be sent back to their homelands as key instrumental links in a Global Domination Chain of Command. Because of their “historically fresh” traumas the subjective message to their homeland culture/people could well come across as a powerful coercion/conversion tactic to idolize the Western World as “The Global Savior”.

If successful, fast forward another generation or two where Western World Infrastructure/Ideology dominates, (but is of course networked into and governed by the controllers of this plan), and you have a weaponized strategy to weaken significantly, or at best, eradicate multiple sovereign cultures (within an approx. 100-150 year timeline, which is of course a blip to those playing the long game). Colonization by extraction (forced), conversion (psychological), and return (manipulated), as opposed to the ‘ol invasion strategies.

N.B. Those that choose to immigrate and adopt Western World Ideology would not have the same subjective psychological oomph needed to return and “preach” to their homeland citizens as a refugee would.
And of course the Western World Controllers are very good at protecting their turf by making sure only a required percentage enter the West for their generational indoctrination; the rest being collateral damage. http://www.unhcr.org/en-au/figures-at-a-glance.html

Another interesting perspective to consider is that to be successful with a one world government, (whether it be from nefarious agendas or peaceful ones), it would make sense for cultural integration/merging to morph into a peacefully acceptable “hybrid mixed culture” and I see the West being the melting pot for this transition; albeit still currently fraught with "factions" of psychological/subjective racial angst.

On an optimistic note: there is no guarantee for success of this “hypothetical” long term MO due to multiple known and unknown variables on our global table e.g. ethical technological and sustainability advancement, etc, all coupled to growing awareness of morally deficit psychological leadership.

[Atlas]

..........

[marique3652]

I have decided to put back up my previous comment that I deleted because I see it did not go away anyway, still in every one's comments. So here it is. Yes it does sound bigoted and I guess I am a bigot but so what? I have every much the right to say how I feel. Anyone who makes fun of my sharing of my feelings and criticizes me as a person and demeans me is a bigot too as they are bigoted against my feelings and opinions.

I agree up to a point that America should take in the poor, the homeless, the tempest tossed. However are we as a whole supposed to welcome people who hate us, are jealous, and want to destroy this country and take it over, to rape our women, cut off our daughter's clitorises, rape our children, beat our women, stone them and behead them or kill family members if they wish because they worship a murderous, bloodthirsty pedophile who advocated that anyone that does not believe in allah should be killed? As a freedom loving American I welcome immigrants but do not welcome people who wish us harm, and I am sorry if that makes me a bad person. Would you want a male Muslim babysitting for your children, and would you trust them alone with your daughters and wives. If the answer is no then that is because it is unwise to invite someone whom believes in violence and rape into your home. I just call that common sense. Would you put your child in a room with many poisonous snakes and some snakes that are not, would you risk it that they may get bitten by a poisonous snake. Just asking. Now I am sure you think me a bad American, but welcoming concept sometimes has to use some reasoning too. Muslims as a whole do not want to assimilate, they want to take over our country. I for one want a future for my granddaughter where she does not have to live in fear. I for one do not want to see life for women like back into the dark ages where they are just objects for a man's pleasure. I for one do not want to have to stay inside to avoid being raped or mugged or killed. Read the other day that some mayor in Sweden told the women to just get used to staying inside, and not going to public places as they may get raped or killed or both, and that they just should get used to it. I do not want that for America, but if you collectively do, then I guess I am a horrible person, a Muslimophobe. Sorry for the ramble but it makes me feel good to get it out, lol.

So there, I have said it again. There are words I would have changed, but I am keeping it the same.

[marique3652]

When I went to college my classes were 9 out of 10 caucasian. Now the same college is about 30-40% caucasian. I'm a minority group on public transportation. I also have had enough observation and experience to say that many of those replacing caucasians feel quite entitled to do so and I feel I'm being nice in describing some of their attitudes as simply entitlement. Many of them, along with leftists type, seem to believe that there is some natural organic non-manipulated migration going on. Though I believe there will always be immigration and migrations of humans I don't believe that is what has taken place in Europe and now in lesser degrees the U.S. and other (formerly?) white countries. It's anything but 'natural' immigration but a forced agenda by a small ruling class and not for any humane reasons as I've mentioned.

Life is change. It's nothing but change.
Racism is changing just like every other human phenomena.
I hold there is more racism in the present moment (not 50 or 150 years ago) going towards caucasians than coming from them. I go on twitter and there are open calls for white genocide happening in several venues. I don't believe there is enough being discussed in this regard.

I've never seen anyone called out before on this forum the way D Leahy post #44 named me, turiya and sam with implications (shall I say accusation or targeting?) of promoting bigotry. Accusations of racism is the #1 techniques being used in western culture to stifle caucasians from expressing their feelings in what is being done to their countries or their culture. I'm disappointed to see the same tired, trite technique used by him. There's a handful of people I've come to be uninterested in their line of thinking and I largely skip many of their posts. No one is forcing me to read their posts or carry on discussion or debate with them. I'm free to move on. After 7 months being here I never had need to use an Ignore button and I didn't even know if there was one. There is. I think people who are averse to the really free expression of ideas should use it.

Let me know if you find that "ignore" button, I may have to use it in the future. I should be added to the list of people who have been labeled a bigot for stating an opinion. Next time I am targeted sanctimoniously I will ignore that person with the magic ignore button, lol. Now to find it....There are ways to disagree with someone's viewpoint without name calling and labeling. Even if the opinion expressed is not a majority viewpoint. I have never said to another that their opinion does not belong on this site, nor have I ever shamed anyone for their opinion or ever made fun of someone because I don't think it is nice. I don't intend to now either. But I do say ouch when someone has crunched down on my toes.

[marique3652]

Thanks Helene, it makes me feel good that although I came off bigotty sounding at least you acknowledge I have a right to sharing my feelings, even though many may not like them. I did feel bullied actually, and labeled, but I see in rereading what I posted that I DID sound like a bigot, overgeneralizing. Guess it took being verbally spanked to think of better ways of expressing my concerns. That is my assignment for the day. Thank you Helene for supporting my right to share and participate on this forum.

[marique3652]

"Those who use a megaphone to blast out directives to others to "wake up," need to wake up themselves. Get educated and acquire some historical perspective..."

Not even a little pot calling the kettle black here?? lol..

Anyhow, good luck to Sam. Hope he gets the satisfaction he was looking for in this thread.

I find the biggest megaphones are manned by those who have a bit of the big picture, extrapolate far too much from their tiny piece of reality. The alt right end up over interpreting -- weaving a web of 'logic' out of their dot connecting. Alex Jones is like a screaming spider on acid. His web starts off making sense and then becomes insane.

Nevertheless everybody's experience need to be taken into account, even of the conclusions they draw are off the mark.

Hahaha, love what you said about Alex Jones being like a screaming spider on acid! Will be seeing him sitting at his table with 8 legs screeching all day now, and laughing again and again. Thanks for the laugh, I needed one today.

[Chester]

Hi Marique, I am glad you decided to repost your post and to expand on it all. I sense that you may have some sad personal experience in this regard and if so, I wish you would share this because by doing so, this can help contributors and readers of this thread to better understand your frustrations (and anger) and perhaps we might gain context as to why.

To all -

For me this is very important because if we cannot understand each other, how can we find ways to rise above? I certainly don't see labeling folks or pointing to their behaviors in ways that appear as labeling... such as "bigot" as helping us get there, but also... I strive to understand why folks do this and I do not think that they are playing "social policeman" for the reasons they might think they do... I think doing this goes much deeper too. I want us to understand what is behind this.

I just hope folks can try and find a way to achieve some common ground where real dialogue can occur. In the case here with Marique... something has to have happened at a personal level... I hope, if true, she will post about it.

[marique3652]

Actually you are right Sam, something very traumatic has colored my viewpoints greatly. I am trying to overcome that. I have a dear woman friend in Irag whom I have corresponded with for many years. Many of my viewpoints have been formed listening to her tell me all about Muslim beliefs, Sharia law, and how the muslim culture views women and female children and their place in the world. Back in 2015 she wrote to me in horror. A group of muslim men subdued her at knife point and forced her to watch them gang rape her 9 year old daughter. They raped her until the horrific injuries added up and she died from the assault. Being the mother of 11 sons, I knew and understand her anger, hatred and horror of losing her only child to such a horrific attack. We still correspond and she is trying to deal with it, but she is struggling greatly and there is not a day that goes by that I do not get angry that a group of barbaric men thought that it was their right to do that to her daughter. Yes I have to admit, I see all the horrors of done by SOME Muslims behaviors and get really angry and apprehensive about our country getting flooded by those behaviors . I know it is not right to assume they are ALL like that, but my friend said that that is the customs and beliefs of Muslim religion and that those behaviors are greatly condoned by the majority of believers.. That is what I rail against those beliefs. Dennis, if I had said that I am horrified by child rapists, people who disfigure and maim the genitalia for life of little girls, women abusers, people who believe it ok to kill family members if they wish, that I have great trepidation for our country being overrun with child rapists, pedophiles, animal rapists, men who think nothing of stoning their wife to death, would you still call me a bigot? Just wondering? It was the saying the word Muslim that you found offensive I am sure. Yes I did do the faux pa by saying the M---sli- word. You compare me to
Fox news, but I compare you to mainstream media, so we are even, lol. MSM does not like the word Muslim extremeists and also like to whitewash all the horrors that have occurred that was done by M-----ms. My viewpoint is my viewpoint and that does not change. I have lost two of my son's to murder as well by a "minority group", and I struggle to make it not personal every day. I see things as a mother trying to protect my family and that will never change. Hope we can call a truce, all of you that feel I am a horrible person for being afraid for the future of the US. I have very personal reasons. If you were to check on the web you would be assaulted by headlines that back up some of my fears, feel free to do so. I am sure however that the ideological people who see no wrong and call people bigots/or racist will not, but that is ok and their choice. Just don't judge me without walking in my shoes, my struggle is great and very personal. A mother in mourning is not always politically correct when talking through great pain and sorrow.

[RunningDeer]

Hi Marique, I am glad you decided to repost your post and to expand on it all. I sense that you may have some sad personal experience in this regard and if so, I wish you would share this because by doing so,
Kudos, Sam. http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/Recovered/smileys-hugs-765537_zpso1eaenyy.gif


…I never had need to use an Ignore button and I didn't even know if there was one.

I have lost two of my son's to murder as well by a "minority group", and I struggle to make it not personal every day.

Let me know if you find that "ignore" button,

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/Recovered/writing_zpsd26h7e8a.GIF Sorry for the loss of your sons, Marique.

Ignore button

1. Go to ‘settings’ in the top right corner.


http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii610/WhiteCrowBlackDeer/Computer_Tips/settings_zpsrz7pk18z.jpg

2. Click ‘edit ignore list’ on the left side.


http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii610/WhiteCrowBlackDeer/Computer_Tips/ignore_zpslzzzy0ao.jpg

3. Add member and hit okay.


http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii610/WhiteCrowBlackDeer/Computer_Tips/add-name_zpsnid1pdv8.jpg

http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/Recovered/happy0158_zpsunvwduof.GIF

[marique3652]

I will probably not use the ignore button, but like that it is a feature. I have to learn to not take things so personally. I did come off sounded bigoted, and should have cited behaviors that I feared and abhorred and not put an ethnic name to my fears, and I do concede that that my statement DID sound like a bigot, and for that I am sorry. Dennis you did make good points, my emotions took the better of me, and I will try to reread my post comments before I hit the final button. How does one get over horrific things without somehow being affected I wonder. It has been 7 years since I lost my sons and it affects me every day. If anyone has any suggestions how to get over the loss of a child, or children, no matter the circumstances, I would love to have all the help I can get.

[zen deik]

Life is not black or white.... There is color...

[RunningDeer]

It has been 7 years since I lost my sons and it affects me every day. If anyone has any suggestions how to get over the loss of a child, or children, no matter the circumstances, I would love to have all the help I can get.

Synchronicity... Today, I had a lunch with my cousin who lost her son to suicide 9 months ago. Her daughter-in-law join us because she too lost the love of her life that day. Her son was the fourth son of the cousins in our family to end their lives. My son was the first. All were bright, articulate, creative young men.

How to get over the loss of a child? T-I-M-E.

For myself, one goal was to show my son how to go through the crap and pain without choosing the point of no return. I have to say that early on I was in dark on how to make it to my next breath.

The second goal was not to hold back on whatever came up…rage, anger, sadness. That kind of pain turned inward would only nurture sickness and disease. I dealt with whatever feelings presented and yanked at its roots as best I could.

The third goal was not to drowned my sorrows in drink. Drink numbs. I waited eighteen months before that first glass of wine.

The fourth goal was to commit to a long term life plan and make a difference in the world. Even if it's only spreading those silent particle-waves of the good-stuff.

♡

[Foxie Loxie]

AND......you HAVE made a difference....Dear Paula! Thank you so much! :heart:

[Chester]

Life is not black or white.... There is color...

How strange that my step-daughter who is Colombian happened to apply for a job yesterday where the following was part of what she was asked to fill out... (click on the image to enlarge)

35234

For one, if the applicant is Hispanic or Latino, you have your own section... if not, you have one of six selections -

White

Black or African American

Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander

Asian

American Indian or Alaska Native

Two or More Races


I asked my wife if she was Hispanic or Latino... the look on her face was classic.

[Sierra]

DNA,

Perhaps it is *because* the U.S. destroyed entire countries that some cannot see refusing immigrants/refugees from the Middle East. Yes, we are responsible, and I am sure that with the rest of the Elites it was planned to inundate Europe with violence from people who violate their own.

Since Sam wants solutions, the only solution I can think of is to rebuild Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria, return the immigrants, hire the returned immigrants to rebuild their countries. If we spent as much money rebuilding as we did destroying, and trained our soldiers in teaching reconstruction skills, it could be done.

As you say, we did it in Japan, because we took over the country, we had Mr. Marshall, of the Marshall Plan, and we controlled the rebuild.

How realistic do I think this idea given the current plans of the Elite? Extremely naive. The day has come and gone, when America would be allowed to do such a thing.

And even more importantly, allowed to quit going to war, racking up such monstrous karma and debt, so we can spend the money fixing our own country.

Given the U.S. is *THE* weapons manufacturer of the world, is that another naive idea?

So what do we do?

[AutumnW]

Actually you are right Sam, something very traumatic has colored my viewpoints greatly. I am trying to overcome that. I have a dear woman friend in Irag whom I have corresponded with for many years. Many of my viewpoints have been formed listening to her tell me all about Muslim beliefs, Sharia law, and how the muslim culture views women and female children and their place in the world. Back in 2015 she wrote to me in horror. A group of muslim men subdued her at knife point and forced her to watch them gang rape her 9 year old daughter. They raped her until the horrific injuries added up and she died from the assault. Being the mother of 11 sons, I knew and understand her anger, hatred and horror of losing her only child to such a horrific attack. We still correspond and she is trying to deal with it, but she is struggling greatly and there is not a day that goes by that I do not get angry that a group of barbaric men thought that it was their right to do that to her daughter. Yes I have to admit, I see all the horrors of done by SOME Muslims behaviors and get really angry and apprehensive about our country getting flooded by those behaviors . I know it is not right to assume they are ALL like that, but my friend said that that is the customs and beliefs of Muslim religion and that those behaviors are greatly condoned by the majority of believers.. That is what I rail against those beliefs. Dennis, if I had said that I am horrified by child rapists, people who disfigure and maim the genitalia for life of little girls, women abusers, people who believe it ok to kill family members if they wish, that I have great trepidation for our country being overrun with child rapists, pedophiles, animal rapists, men who think nothing of stoning their wife to death, would you still call me a bigot? Just wondering? It was the saying the word Muslim that you found offensive I am sure. Yes I did do the faux pa by saying the M---sli- word. You compare me to
Fox news, but I compare you to mainstream media, so we are even, lol. MSM does not like the word Muslim extremeists and also like to whitewash all the horrors that have occurred that was done by M-----ms. My viewpoint is my viewpoint and that does not change. I have lost two of my son's to murder as well by a "minority group", and I struggle to make it not personal every day. I see things as a mother trying to protect my family and that will never change. Hope we can call a truce, all of you that feel I am a horrible person for being afraid for the future of the US. I have very personal reasons. If you were to check on the web you would be assaulted by headlines that back up some of my fears, feel free to do so. I am sure however that the ideological people who see no wrong and call people bigots/or racist will not, but that is ok and their choice. Just don't judge me without walking in my shoes, my struggle is great and very personal. A mother in mourning is not always politically correct when talking through great pain and sorrow.

Are you saying that raping young girls to death is a prominent feature of Muslim countries? They have a long way to go in terms of gender equality, granted, but this incident would be considered deplorable by the majority of Muslims. Though you appear to be struggling with generalizing from specifics, your following statements continue to do just that.

Islamic people are zero threat to Americans who were born in the U.S. You could absorb hundreds of thousands and it would barely make a dent in your cultural values. The greatest threat or contagion from Islam, would be having more 'ethnic foods' and restaurants to choose from. And seeing as most of us have been inoculated by eating humus, it might actually be a win win.

[Bob]

The point could be debated, is the woman a "slave"..

From 4:24, it can be rightly assumed, that the Qur'an does not see any wrong-doing in Muslims having sex with captive women even if these women are married and their husbands are still alive. This clearly indicates that the Qur'an allows rape, as captive women, even in the unlikely case of agreeing to sexual intercourse, would still be having that intercourse under duress.


Muslims are encouraged to live in the way of Muhammad, who was a slave owner and trader. He captured slaves in battle; he had sex with his slaves; and he instructed his men to do the same. The Quran actually devotes more verses to making sure that Muslim men know they can keep women as sex slaves (4) than it does to telling them to pray five times a day (zero).

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/slavery.aspx


Abu Dawud (2150) - "The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers.

So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Quran 4:24) 'And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess.'" This is the background for verse 4:24 of the Quran. Not only does Allah give permission for women to be captured and raped, but allows it to even be done in front of their husbands. (See also Muslim 3432 & Ibn Kathir/Abdul Rahman Part 5 Page 14)


"Notes

"Slavery is deeply embedded in Islamic law and tradition. Although a slave-owner is cautioned against treating slaves harshly, basic human rights are not obliged. The very fact that only non-Muslims may be taken as slaves is evidence of Islam's supremacist doctrine. "

[Chester]

Beware drawing conclusions as to what I might mean to imply by posting the following -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_April_2017

The above link is a list of terrorist incidents that occurred last month. The list is global. The list is comprised of 93 events.

I examined the first week of events which consisted of 34.

Of the 34 events 29 were committed by Islamic organizations.

That is over 85%... again, this is a stat that covers the globe.

But again, members and readers... please, be careful in your interpretations as to what conclusions I draw from this actuality.

[AutumnW]

I don't believe that rape of little girls is sanctioned by Islam -- particularly not gang rape. As a war atrocity -- yes. I can see it happening in that instance. But as a social norm in Islamic countries. Nope. All kinds of weirdo violent pervert behavior does likely happen in the rural areas though..granted.

Poor, uneducated, inbred people everywhere are at risk of appalling behavior, regardless of their religion. Rural Christians who got suckered into fighting in Iraq, seemed to be pretty jazzed about killing people who were zero threat to them. Now THAT is sick.

[Bob]

I don't believe that rape of little girls is sanctioned by Islam [..]

reference: http://pamelageller.com/2015/08/new-york-times-on-sex-slavery-in-islam-the-quran-not-only-gave-isis-the-right-to-rape-it-condoned-and-encouraged-it.html/

Article written by:
Pamela Geller, the President of the American Freedom Defense Initiative (AFDI), publisher of PamelaGeller.com and author of The Post-American Presidency: The Obama Administration’s War on America and Stop the Islamization of America: A Practical Guide to the Resistance.


The New York Times has a lengthy piece on how the Islamic State cites Islamic theology to justify its brutal acts, claiming that the Koran “condones and encourages” raping women if they are not true believers of Islam.

"he knelt beside the bed and prostrated himself in prayer before getting on top of her."

When it was over, he knelt to pray again, bookending the rape with acts of religious devotion.

“I kept telling him it hurts — please stop,” said the girl, whose body is so small an adult could circle her waist with two hands. “He told me that according to Islam he is allowed to rape an unbeliever. He said that by raping me, he is drawing closer to God”..

It is stunning that it has taken The New York Times years to address this savage issue. Tens of thousands of young girls have been raped, bought and sold.

And while the NY Times only addresses sex slavery under the Islamic State, it is hardly exclusive to them. The Muslim sex trafficking gangs in the UK, for example, mirror the practice. The NY Times has long criticized and smeared my colleagues and me for writing about these horrors and opposing them, calling us “anti-Muslim.”

The Times trots out the apologists and “scholars” who “disagree” on the proper interpretation of these verses, and on the divisive question of whether Islam actually sanctions slavery. It’s not a question. It does. It’s not a question of “proper” interpretation. The Islamic State practices pure Islam. Their theological argument is authentic.

To its credit, The New York Times goes on to cite:

Cole Bunzel, a scholar of Islamic theology at Princeton University, disagrees, pointing to the numerous references to the phrase “Those your right hand possesses” in the Quran, which for centuries has been interpreted to mean female slaves. He also points to the corpus of Islamic jurisprudence, which continues into the modern era and which he says includes detailed rules for the treatment of slaves.

“There is a great deal of scripture that sanctions slavery,” said Mr. Bunzel, the author of a research paper published by the Brookings Institution on the ideology of the Islamic State. “You can argue that it is no longer relevant and has fallen into abeyance. ISIS would argue that these institutions need to be revived, because that is what the Prophet and his companions did.”
The Islamic State consistently adheres to the shariah.

The captives were also forced to answer intimate questions, including reporting the exact date of their last menstrual cycle. They realized that the fighters were trying to determine whether they were pregnant, in keeping with a Shariah rule stating that a man cannot have intercourse with his slave if she is pregnant.

The NY Times calls it ISIS’s “extreme interpretation of Islam.” In fact, it is not; it is the literal understanding of Islam. Authentic Islam. The group has codified it, writing how-to guides and memos outlining the dos and don’ts of sexual slavery.

Young Yazidi girls and teens that the Times interviewed spoke of being raped by ISIS fighters who prayed before and after the event, viewing their behavior as an act of worship.

Child rape is explicitly condoned: “It is permissible to have intercourse with the female slave who hasn’t reached puberty, if she is fit for intercourse,” according to a translation by the Middle East Media Research Institute of a pamphlet published on Twitter last December.

“We have indeed raided and captured the kafirahwomen and drove them like sheep by the edge of the sword.” Kafirah refers to infidels.

ISIS Enshrines a Theology of Rape

Claiming the Quran’s support, the Islamic State codifies sex slavery in conquered regions of Iraq and Syria and uses the practice as a recruiting tool.


QADIYA, Iraq — In the moments before he raped the 12-year-old girl, the Islamic State fighter took the time to explain that what he was about to do was not a sin. Because the preteen girl practiced a religion other than Islam, the Quran not only gave him the right to rape her — it condoned and encouraged it, he insisted.

He bound her hands and gagged her. Then he knelt beside the bed and prostrated himself in prayer before getting on top of her.

When it was over, he knelt to pray again, bookending the rape with acts of religious devotion.

“I kept telling him it hurts — please stop,” said the girl, whose body is so small an adult could circle her waist with two hands. “He told me that according to Islam he is allowed to rape an unbeliever. He said that by raping me, he is drawing closer to God,” she said in an interview alongside her family in a refugee camp here, to which she escaped after 11 month

The systematic rape of women and girls from the Yazidi religious minority has become deeply enmeshed in the organization and the radical theology of the Islamic State in the year since the group announced it was reviving slavery as an institution. Interviews with 21 women and girls who recently escaped the Islamic State, as well as an examination of the group’s official communications, illuminate how the practice has been enshrined in the group’s core tenets.

The trade in Yazidi women and girls has created a persistent infrastructure, with a network of warehouses where the victims are held, viewing rooms where they are inspected and marketed, and a dedicated fleet of buses used to transport them.

A total of 5,270 Yazidis were abducted last year, and at least 3,144 are still being held, according to community leaders. To handle them, the Islamic State has developed a detailed bureaucracy of sex slavery, including sales contracts notarized by the ISIS-run Islamic courts. And the practice has become an established recruiting tool to lure men from deeply conservative Muslim societies, where casual sex is taboo and dating is forbidden.

A growing body of internal policy memos and theological discussions has established guidelines for slavery, including a lengthy how-to manual issued by the Islamic State Research and Fatwa Department just last month. Repeatedly, the ISIS leadership has emphasized a narrow and selective reading of the Quran and other religious rulings to not only justify violence, but also to elevate and celebrate each sexual assault as spiritually beneficial, even virtuous.

“Every time that he came to rape me, he would pray,” said F, a 15-year-old girl who was captured on the shoulder of Mount Sinjar one year ago and was sold to an Iraqi fighter in his 20s. Like some others interviewed by The New York Times, she wanted to be identified only by her first initial because of the shame associated with rape.

“He kept telling me this is ibadah,” she said, using a term from Islamic scripture meaning worship.

A 15-year-old girl who wished to be identified only as F, right, with her father and 4-year-old brother. “Every time that he came to rape me, he would pray,” said F, who was captured by the Islamic State on Mount Sinjar one year ago and sold to an Iraqi fighter. (Credit Mauricio Lima for The New York Times)

“He said that raping me is his prayer to God.

"I said to him, ‘What you’re doing to me is wrong, and it will not bring you closer to God.’ And he said, ‘No, it’s allowed. It’s halal,’ ” said the teenager, who escaped in April with the help of smugglers after being enslaved for nearly nine months.

The Islamic State’s formal introduction of systematic sexual slavery dates to Aug. 3, 2014, when its fighters invaded the villages on the southern flank of Mount Sinjar, a craggy massif of dun-colored rock in northern Iraq.

Its valleys and ravines are home to the Yazidis, a tiny religious minority who represent less than 1.5 percent of Iraq’s estimated population of 34 million.

The offensive on the mountain came just two months after the fall of Mosul, the second-largest city in Iraq. At first, it appeared that the subsequent advance on the mountain was just another attempt to extend the territory controlled by Islamic State fighters.

Almost immediately, there were signs that their aim this time was different.

Survivors say that men and women were separated within the first hour of their capture. Adolescent boys were told to lift up their shirts, and if they had armpit hair, they were directed to join their older brothers and fathers. In village after village, the men and older boys were driven or marched to nearby fields, where they were forced to lie down in the dirt and sprayed with automatic fire.

The women, girls and children, however, were hauled off in open-bed trucks.

“The offensive on the mountain was as much a sexual conquest as it was for territorial gain,” said Matthew Barber, a University of Chicago expert on the Yazidi minority. He was in Sinjar when the onslaught began last summer and helped create a foundation that provides psychological support for the escapees, who number more than 2,000, according to community activists.

Fifteen-year-old F says her family of nine was trying to escape, speeding up mountain switchbacks, when their aging Opel overheated. She, her mother, and her sisters — 14, 7, and 4 years old — were helplessly standing by their stalled car when a convoy of heavily armed Islamic State fighters encircled them.

“Right away, the fighters separated the men from the women,” she said. She, her mother and sisters were first taken in trucks to the nearest town on Mount Sinjar. “There, they separated me from my mom. The young, unmarried girls were forced to get into buses.”

The buses were white, with a painted stripe next to the word “Hajj,” suggesting that the Islamic State had commandeered Iraqi government buses used to transport pilgrims for the annual pilgrimage to Mecca. So many Yazidi women and girls were loaded inside F’s bus that they were forced to sit on each other’s laps, she said.

Once the bus headed out, they noticed that the windows were blocked with curtains, an accouterment that appeared to have been added because the fighters planned to transport large numbers of women who were not covered in burqas or head scarves.

F’s account, including the physical description of the bus, the placement of the curtains and the manner in which the women were transported, is echoed by a dozen other female victims interviewed for this article. They described a similar set of circumstances even though they were kidnapped on different days and in locations miles apart.

[…]

Osman Hassan Ali, a Yazidi businessman who has successfully smuggled out numerous Yazidi women, said he posed as a buyer in order to be sent the photographs. He shared a dozen images, each one showing a Yazidi woman sitting in a bare room on a couch, facing the camera with a blank, unsmiling expression. On the edge of the photograph is written in Arabic, “Sabaya [slave] No. 1,” “Sabaya No. 2,” and so on.

Buildings where the women were collected and held sometimes included a viewing room.

“When they put us in the building, they said we had arrived at the ‘Sabaya Market,’” said one 19-year-old victim, whose first initial is I. “I understood we were now in a slave market.”

[..]

The Islamic State recently made it clear that sex with Christian and Jewish women captured in battle is also permissible, according to a new 34-page manual issued this summer by the terror group’s Research and Fatwa Department.

Just about the only prohibition is having sex with a pregnant slave, and the manual describes how an owner must wait for a female captive to have her menstruating cycle, in order to “make sure there is nothing in her womb,” before having intercourse with her. Of the 21 women and girls interviewed for this article, among the only ones who had not been raped were the women who were already pregnant at the moment of their capture, as well as those who were past menopause.

Beyond that, there appears to be no bounds to what is sexually permissible. Child rape is explicitly condoned: “It is permissible to have intercourse with the female slave who hasn’t reached puberty, if she is fit for intercourse,” according to a translation by the Middle East Media Research Institute of a pamphlet published on Twitter last December.

A 25-year-old Yazidi woman showed a “Certificate of Emancipation” given to her by a Libyan who had enslaved her. He explained that he had finished his training as a suicide bomber and was planning to blow himself up, and was therefore setting her free. (Credit Mauricio Lima for The New York Times)

[…]One 34-year-old Yazidi woman, who was bought and repeatedly raped by a Saudi fighter in the Syrian city of Shadadi, described how she fared better than the second slave in the household — a 12-year-old girl who was raped for days on end despite heavy bleeding.

“He destroyed her body. She was badly infected. The fighter kept coming and asking me, ‘Why does she smell so bad?’ And I said, she has an infection on the inside, you need to take care of her,” the woman said.

Unmoved, he ignored the girl’s agony, continuing the ritual of praying before and after raping the child.

“I said to him, ‘She’s just a little girl,’ ” the older woman recalled.

“And he answered: ‘No. She’s not a little girl. She’s a slave. And she knows exactly how to have sex.’ ’’

“And having sex with her pleases God,” he said.

No thank-you, these beasts are not welcome, IMHO of course...

[Flash]

I don't believe that rape of little girls is sanctioned by Islam -- particularly not gang rape. As a war atrocity -- yes. I can see it happening in that instance. But as a social norm in Islamic countries. Nope. All kinds of weirdo violent pervert behavior does likely happen in the rural areas though..granted.

Poor, uneducated, inbred people everywhere are at risk of appalling behavior, regardless of their religion. Rural Christians who got suckered into fighting in Iraq, seemed to be pretty jazzed about killing people who were zero threat to them. Now THAT is sick.

For some, if we are not Muslims, we are below dogs and will be treated as such - as bad as the Catholic Inquisition was in Spain in the 1500's. I do not understand how come westerners cannot believe it. It is clear as day. And in this context, raping children is not a problem, it is less bad than raping a dog. And it is for God, for the Jihad.

And yes, we have to worry Autumn you cannot imagine how often I have seen women called whores or bitches in Montreal streets, and very often by Arabic looking men, or heard that one guy would not want to work with colleagues, which were women. Those guys would not hesitate one minute to rape a non Muslim, if the law permitted it in Canada. And there is a large difference between sickos who are rapist in any society, and men who are told they can rape because the religion and laws approve of it. It makes them feel obedient and proud, therefore increasing the sickness of it all. And why aren't all the world Muslim condemning it? Because they know it is socially approved!

Don't you also remember what was done to black in the Southern US 80 years ago - they had no rights and the women could be raped and men killed by the KKK without any recourse.

This is the exact same mentality here, nowadays, in those countries. The difference being that they want to conquer the planet by destroying and raping since it is one way of doing the Jihad (the conquest of the planet)- I have been told by some Muslim men that they would come here, marry Middle Eastern or occidentals to make as much children as they could so that our society would become Muslim. Do you ever believe that they respect those occidental wives? Ask some Arab speaking people, those who are ok human beings, to tell you what they hear about the Occidentals, and mostly the Occidental women, you will be shocked.

[AutumnW]

Flash, I understand and I think immigrants from backward countries (and I am fine with calling most Arab countries backwards) should be vetted before they are allowed to immigrate. Those with university degrees will be much less prone to to religious fanaticism and can be safely allowed in the country.

Saudi Arabian Wahhabists have been very problematic, form the core of Isis and it wouldn't hurt my feelings if they all ceased to exist. I don't imagine they would want to immigrate here though. We are too unclean for them! When my brother and former boyfriend visited the Al Hambra we ran into a Wahhabist mullah and his followers on a pilgrimage. They creeped me out- wouldn't talk to me, but were very interested in my brother. Very gay..and not in a rainbow coalition kind of way, but a dark perverted sort of way. Does this make sense?

[Chester]

So I would like to ask again... do we accept the current geopolitical reality that we are a planet of nations?

Is it acceptable that the globe is made up of nations?

[turiya]

DNA,

Perhaps it is *because* the U.S. destroyed entire countries that some cannot see refusing immigrants/refugees from the Middle East. Yes, we are responsible, and I am sure that with the rest of the Elites it was planned to inundate Europe with violence from people who violate their own.

Since Sam wants solutions, the only solution I can think of is to rebuild Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria, return the immigrants, hire the returned immigrants to rebuild their countries. If we spent as much money rebuilding as we did destroying, and trained our soldiers in teaching reconstruction skills, it could be done.

As you say, we did it in Japan, because we took over the country, we had Mr. Marshall, of the Marshall Plan, and we controlled the rebuild.

How realistic do I think this idea given the current plans of the Elite? Extremely naive. The day has come and gone, when America would be allowed to do such a thing.

And even more importantly, allowed to quit going to war, racking up such monstrous karma and debt, so we can spend the money fixing our own country.

Given the U.S. is *THE* weapons manufacturer of the world, is that another naive idea?

So what do we do?

To Sierra & the rest of the naysayers...

First thing is to understand that it is not 'We' that have been creating this mess with the mass killing, destruction, creating of refugees in the world. So, stop identifying yourself (by using the pronoun 'we') with the Military-Industrial / Neocon / Deep-State / National Security / Central Bankster Complex.

Second thing, is that Trump is in the process of taking down the root cause of this miserable situation. Whether you like it or not, or want to believe it or not, Donald Trump is about to take down the Central Banking system which is the basic root cause of the problem. The Central Banking system is the major root cause of all the misery in this world at the present moment.

The Third thing: Its just up to the rest of us, while this system is coming down & undergoing a reset, is to be a part of the rebuilding process. And this happens at the local community level. Get to know the people you live near - your neighbors - get to know the people that you can trust, that you can share things with, and be prepared to form a small group of people that can help each other through this upcoming crisis as we go through this paradigm shift.

That's it in a nut shell!

Have a listen:

https://youtu.be/KkVDhU9Xsrg?t=12m35s

[DNA]

DNA,

Perhaps it is *because* the U.S. destroyed entire countries that some cannot see refusing immigrants/refugees from the Middle East. Yes, we are responsible, and I am sure that with the rest of the Elites it was planned to inundate Europe with violence from people who violate their own.

Since Sam wants solutions, the only solution I can think of is to rebuild Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria, return the immigrants, hire the returned immigrants to rebuild their countries. If we spent as much money rebuilding as we did destroying, and trained our soldiers in teaching reconstruction skills, it could be done.

As you say, we did it in Japan, because we took over the country, we had Mr. Marshall, of the Marshall Plan, and we controlled the rebuild.

How realistic do I think this idea given the current plans of the Elite? Extremely naive. The day has come and gone, when America would be allowed to do such a thing.

And even more importantly, allowed to quit going to war, racking up such monstrous karma and debt, so we can spend the money fixing our own country.

Given the U.S. is *THE* weapons manufacturer of the world, is that another naive idea?

So what do we do?


All I'm doing is acknowledging the situation. If we want to come up with real solutions first we have to look at the situation for what it really is.
If we can wake up to the knowledge of the INTENT of the elite then we can make real differences in our day to day lives.
I honestly think the worst thing we can do is to inundate ourselves with the decisions of the world.
We have to be realistic about the real effect we can bring on to the world and that real effect should start with our day to day lives and the people we interact with on a day to day basis.
If the INTENT of the elite is to muddy our minds, deplete our bodies and inundate our senses then maybe we should consider how they do that and remove those negative influences from our day to day lives.
In terms of solving the problems of the world I will not really concern myself with that being as there is little I can do to influence those things other than making myself aware of the truths that are being withheld from most of us.
The first rule of effective behavior is understanding and knowing what you can truly effect and what you can and can not effect. Do not waste personal resources raging against the machine if little results will be shown for it.

[Helene West]

DNA,

Perhaps it is *because* the U.S. destroyed entire countries that some cannot see refusing immigrants/refugees from the Middle East. Yes, we are responsible, and I am sure that with the rest of the Elites it was planned to inundate Europe with violence from people who violate their own.

Since Sam wants solutions, the only solution I can think of is to rebuild Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria, return the immigrants, hire the returned immigrants to rebuild their countries. If we spent as much money rebuilding as we did destroying, and trained our soldiers in teaching reconstruction skills, it could be done.

As you say, we did it in Japan, because we took over the country, we had Mr. Marshall, of the Marshall Plan, and we controlled the rebuild.

How realistic do I think this idea given the current plans of the Elite? Extremely naive. The day has come and gone, when America would be allowed to do such a thing.

And even more importantly, allowed to quit going to war, racking up such monstrous karma and debt, so we can spend the money fixing our own country.

Given the U.S. is *THE* weapons manufacturer of the world, is that another naive idea?

So what do we do?

To Sierra & the rest of the naysayers...

First thing is to understand that it is not 'We' that have been creating this mess with the mass killing, destruction, creating of refugees in the world. So, stop identifying yourself (by using the pronoun 'we') with the Military-Industrial / Neocon / Deep-State / National Security / Central Bankster Complex.

Second thing, is that Trump is in the process of taking down the root cause of this miserable situation. Whether you like it or not, or want to believe it or not, Donald Trump is about to take down the Central Banking system which is the basic root cause of the problem. The Central Banking system is the major root cause of all the misery in this world at the present moment.

The Third thing: Its just up to the rest of us, while this system is coming down & undergoing a reset, is to be a part of the rebuilding process. And this happens at the local community level. Get to know the people you live near - your neighbors - get to know the people that you can trust, that you can share things with, and be prepared to form a small group of people that can help each other through this upcoming crisis as we go through this paradigm shift.

That's it in a nut shell!

Have a listen:

https://youtu.be/KkVDhU9Xsrg?t=12m35s

I'm contradicting myself for writing here as I felt I was through with this thread but I can't resist this important point.
Turiya, Thanks for bringing up the pronouns! I've tried to emphasize this myself on some posts.
I'm not the ruling class. I have no say over what they do. As in - We have to take in refugees because "we" went into the middle east. Like hell 'we' did and I don't wish to suffer because of what 'they' do. "Our" government did this or that. This government has been suspect to me for decades let alone me call it 'my' or 'our' government. etc.

But as far as your optimism on trump taking down the central banking system, I have to see it to believe it as I'm not sure he has been compromised. We've been hostages of the central banks for over a century and extricating their evil from our culture sounds like a miracle to me. However the banking part is a different thread and I will be watching out for more on this.
thanks

[Chester]

Ok... a hint...

Exorcism preceded woman’s killing and decapitation, suspect says

Rachael Hilyard – charged with first-degree murder in the April 9 decapitation of 63-year-old Micki Davis – said Tuesday that church members performed an exorcism at Hilyard’s house days before the killing.

Hilyard said the exorcism was done because of “evil spirits” at her south Wichita house.

read more here (http://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article148142514.html)

[Sierra]

DNA,

Perhaps it is *because* the U.S. destroyed entire countries that some cannot see refusing immigrants/refugees from the Middle East. Yes, we are responsible, and I am sure that with the rest of the Elites it was planned to inundate Europe with violence from people who violate their own.

Since Sam wants solutions, the only solution I can think of is to rebuild Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria, return the immigrants, hire the returned immigrants to rebuild their countries. If we spent as much money rebuilding as we did destroying, and trained our soldiers in teaching reconstruction skills, it could be done.

As you say, we did it in Japan, because we took over the country, we had Mr. Marshall, of the Marshall Plan, and we controlled the rebuild.

How realistic do I think this idea given the current plans of the Elite? Extremely naive. The day has come and gone, when America would be allowed to do such a thing.

And even more importantly, allowed to quit going to war, racking up such monstrous karma and debt, so we can spend the money fixing our own country.

Given the U.S. is *THE* weapons manufacturer of the world, is that another naive idea?

So what do we do?

To Sierra & the rest of the naysayers...

First thing is to understand that it is not 'We' that have been creating this mess with the mass killing, destruction, creating of refugees in the world. So, stop identifying yourself (by using the pronoun 'we') with the Military-Industrial / Neocon / Deep-State / National Security / Central Bankster Complex.

Second thing, is that Trump is in the process of taking down the root cause of this miserable situation. Whether you like it or not, or want to believe it or not, Donald Trump is about to take down the Central Banking system which is the basic root cause of the problem. The Central Banking system is the major root cause of all the misery in this world at the present moment.

The Third thing: Its just up to the rest of us, while this system is coming down & undergoing a reset, is to be a part of the rebuilding process. And this happens at the local community level. Get to know the people you live near - your neighbors - get to know the people that you can trust, that you can share things with, and be prepared to form a small group of people that can help each other through this upcoming crisis as we go through this paradigm shift.

That's it in a nut shell!

Have a listen:

https://youtu.be/KkVDhU9Xsrg?t=12m35s

Excuse me Sam, I have to say something.
Mod hat off

Turiya,
Reread what I said. You went completely off topic.


First thing:Oh how cowardly. Now we speak in the language of "four legs good, two legs better"? If the U.S. is not responsible, who is, the tooth fairy?


Second thing:I was not talking about your obsession with Trump. Please do not use me to bring Trump into this conversation. Bottom line for me: Trump is a member of the Elite. I spare you the multitude of detail covering Trump's lies (bombing of Syria, zero conversation on the world wide raping of women and children), and support of the elite, because I know you have no interest in a conversation, but I have no interest in a lecture.


The Third thing: And don't piously sermonize me on how to conduct my life. You are NOT someone I respect in any way, shape or form.

Excuse me Sam...
Mod hat off some more

You have been nasty as hell to me for years, (how dare I as a moderator, put a channeling thread in the channeling subforum) and I have courteously avoided posting on your multitude of Trump threads. Yet, with that history, you come here to dismiss everything I say? I call that behavior a double standard, and hypocritical. You are not entitled.

I am not interested in your usual drivel. You have plenty of threads to do your Trump preaching, and to quote someone you clearly dislike, disrespect, dismiss, smacks of trolling. I am interested in this conversation, and I am annoyed at you taking the thread off topic, using me to do it, and only to drone on about Trump again.

You can take your nutshell and feed it to the pigs.

Sorry, Sam, and back to topic...
:focus:

[turiya]

Pardon me, Sam... but this short response I am compelled to make...



Mod hat off? - I don't think so.

Who else could get away with what you just said to another PA forum member, and still remain being here without being sent on a holiday? Who else, but a moderator.

Whatever you claim I've done or said to you has never reached the level to which you have presently taken yourself to. Like those from the State of Missouri would say... "Show me" just where I've been so discourteous towards you.

I have previously tried to joke around with you before - for example, posting the 'ignore list image' that had your name on it... and with your response, I thought we were breaking down the barrier that has existed between us. I am sorry that it seems we can't come to an understanding. I have always been open to have this happen. And, I still am.

Best regards...


____________________late add____________________

Sooooo nasty... this would & should be easy to prove.... you don't have to create another post to show this... just edit it into to your last post on this thread - (using, for example, here, here, here & here).... I dare you.... just show it, show everybody your proof! - when, where & how I've been so nasty to you!

[Sierra]

Pardon me, Sam... but this short response I am compelled to make...



Mod hat off? - I don't think so.

Who else could get away with what you just said to another PA forum member, and still remain being here without being sent on a holiday? Who else, but a moderator.

Whatever you claim I've done or said to you has never reached the level to which you have presently taken yourself to. Like those from the State of Missouri would say... "Show me" just where I've been so discourteous towards you.

I have previously tried to joke around with you before - for example, posting the 'ignore list image' that had your name on it... and with your response, I thought we were breaking down the barrier that has existed between us. I am sorry that it seems we can't come to an understanding. I have always been open to have this happen. And, I still am.

Best regards...






Mod hat off

I don't think so. I'm just a naysayer. I call bull**** you ever used humor towards me. Read your first and last posts on the 'ignore list image' incident.

You troll me, I will speak.

Mod hat on

:focus:

[Chester]

So I came back to try and tie some things together but instead I must say that I was profoundly blind sided by what I experienced tonight while watching Tucker Carlson and never imagined how I would think about what is being called FGM and the wider debate that expands to male circumcision. Why this discussion fits in this thread is because this thread reaches from immigration to "the who that might immigrate" (such as Muslims, to the cultural practice that occurs to some extent within the Muslim culture and community which is sometimes labeled as Female Genital Mutilation (aka FGM)). I need to wait for the clip to appear on Youtube before I begin my post and so sometime tomorrow I hope to make the post.

Again, be warned that folks may be surprised at what they may read (if they indeed do read).

Onnnnnnnnn another few notes -

a.) I have more than once attempted to bait someone into asking me why I wanted Trump to win and why I am still very glad he won. The reason is simple. The election of Trump exposed to far more people the total "goofiness" (note I preferred another word but didn't want folks to see *******) of the entire US political scene as it exists today and has likely existed for at least since Kennedy's demise.

b.) I have asked if anyone here sees the current geopolitical "scene" comprised of nations as acceptable.

I have revealed why I am glad Trump won (and am still glad as each and every day this is further exposed) but I am hoping a few folks would indulge me with a response to my question regarding nations.

[araucaria]

First thing is to understand that it is not 'We' that have been creating this mess with the mass killing, destruction, creating of refugees in the world. So, stop identifying yourself (by using the pronoun 'we') with the Military-Industrial / Neocon / Deep-State / National Security / Central Bankster Complex.

The issue here is responsibility. It starts with personal responsibility. If you don’t believe you signed up for this life, it helps to pretend you do. Then if anything unpleasant happens to you, you have a chance of doing something about it instead of playing the victim. Responsibility for something does not necessarily mean guilt; in fact I would suggest that guilt is an unhealthy offshoot of responsibility for stuff that does happen, and victimhood is an unhealthy offshoot of avoiding guilt. It is unhealthy precisely because denying guilt usually means disclaiming responsibility. The healthy thing to do, I believe, is to relieve guilt precisely by accepting responsibility.

Collective responsibility is an extension of this process on various different levels, of which the nation is just one; it is the sharing of responsibility to relieve guilt. Given how many perpetrators are former victims, the idea is to stop this endless cycle by the originally guiltless victim taking responsibility for something that happened to them against their will, or something that happened to one of the collectives to which they belong before they personally were even born. For example, France has been a divided nation ever since the collaborationists and resistance fighters took different sides during World War II. Both Presidents Chirac and Hollande have made statements accepting that France (the French Republic) took responsibility for the actions of Vichy France (the French State as it called itself). This We of collective responsibility was recently brought into question by Marine Le Pen and her National Front party, coinciding with a denial of actual guilt for her own smaller collective, namely the far right going back in time. See this post:


The ‘dédiabolisation’ of the FN under Marine Le Pen is designed to counter people with longer memories or who know their history. You have to go all the way back to World War II. When she stated recently that the Vél d’Hiv Jewish deportation atrocity was not the work of France, represented by De Gaulle in exile in London, but by individual members of the Vichy government, she is rewriting history. Her party has never been Gaullist, but is in fact an offshoot of the pro-Nazi collaborationist community.
See this page and the whole site: http://www.gauchemip.org/spip.php?article15713

The difference in approach is between trying to heal and leaving to fester. The word ‘apology’ itself contains this ambivalence. To apologize normally means to express regret for something, and is usually met with reconciliation, or dedramatization (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?93152-Simon-Parkes-Questions-of-integrity-and-credibility&p=1097882&viewfull=1#post1097882). But an apology, or apologia, can also be a reasoned defence, explanation or excuse, expressing the opposite of regret. Those who might be bearing a burden refuse to do so because it is too much for them; collective responsibility means sharing the burden. The burden of US guilt is not only too much for the perpetrators, it is too much for the American people on their own; which is why all of humanity needs to share the burden of what one part of humanity has done. It may go all the way back to something as huge as destroying an entire planet (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?89523-So-Why-hasn-t-Planet-Earth-been-invaded&p=1056949&viewfull=1#post1056949). If so, nothing less than collective responsibility on the grandest scale is going to heal the damage. And it may extend even beyond humanity: maybe all of humanity needs to share the burden of what another (alien) part of sentient beinghood has done. It is truly a cosmic issue, but one that we can begin to address on our tiny level here and now, simply because ‘we are all in this together’.

[TargeT]

So I would like to ask again... do we accept the current geopolitical reality that we are a planet of nations?



yes, because we can only stretch our tribalistic natures so far. Even with out nations or states we would naturally self organize into communities which would slowly drift away. Culture guides a lot of human behavior and culture can be drastically different with in a 50 mile area. Nations, counties, cities, towns etc all facilitate the connection between those disparate communities/cultures by giving them a common narrative.

"globalism" is very similar to communism or socialism; it tries to fit everyone into one mold. We don't fit into one mold & attempting to force this has given us the situation in Europe with "immigrants".


Is it acceptable that the globe is made up of nations?
So rather than "acceptable" I'd say potentially necessary.

[Helene West]

First thing is to understand that it is not 'We' that have been creating this mess with the mass killing, destruction, creating of refugees in the world. So, stop identifying yourself (by using the pronoun 'we') with the Military-Industrial / Neocon / Deep-State / National Security / Central Bankster Complex.

The issue here is responsibility. It starts with personal responsibility. If you don’t believe you signed up for this life, it helps to pretend you do. Then if anything unpleasant happens to you, you have a chance of doing something about it instead of playing the victim. Responsibility for something does not necessarily mean guilt; in fact I would suggest that guilt is an unhealthy offshoot of responsibility for stuff that does happen, and victimhood is an unhealthy offshoot of avoiding guilt. It is unhealthy precisely because denying guilt usually means disclaiming responsibility. The healthy thing to do, I believe, is to relieve guilt precisely by accepting responsibility.

Collective responsibility is an extension of this process on various different levels, of which the nation is just one; it is the sharing of responsibility to relieve guilt. Given how many perpetrators are former victims, the idea is to stop this endless cycle by the originally guiltless victim taking responsibility for something that happened to them against their will, or something that happened to one of the collectives to which they belong before they personally were even born. For example, France has been a divided nation ever since the collaborationists and resistance fighters took different sides during World War II. Both Presidents Chirac and Hollande have made statements accepting that France (the French Republic) took responsibility for the actions of Vichy France (the French State as it called itself). This We of collective responsibility was recently brought into question by Marine Le Pen and her National Front party, coinciding with a denial of actual guilt for her own smaller collective, namely the far right going back in time. See this post:


The ‘dédiabolisation’ of the FN under Marine Le Pen is designed to counter people with longer memories or who know their history. You have to go all the way back to World War II. When she stated recently that the Vél d’Hiv Jewish deportation atrocity was not the work of France, represented by De Gaulle in exile in London, but by individual members of the Vichy government, she is rewriting history. Her party has never been Gaullist, but is in fact an offshoot of the pro-Nazi collaborationist community.
See this page and the whole site: http://www.gauchemip.org/spip.php?article15713

The difference in approach is between trying to heal and leaving to fester. The word ‘apology’ itself contains this ambivalence. To apologize normally means to express regret for something, and is usually met with reconciliation, or dedramatization (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?93152-Simon-Parkes-Questions-of-integrity-and-credibility&p=1097882&viewfull=1#post1097882). But an apology, or apologia, can also be a reasoned defence, explanation or excuse, expressing the opposite of regret. Those who might be bearing a burden refuse to do so because it is too much for them; collective responsibility means sharing the burden. The burden of US guilt is not only too much for the perpetrators, it is too much for the American people on their own; which is why all of humanity needs to share the burden of what one part of humanity has done. It may go all the way back to something as huge as destroying an entire planet (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?89523-So-Why-hasn-t-Planet-Earth-been-invaded&p=1056949&viewfull=1#post1056949). If so, nothing less than collective responsibility on the grandest scale is going to heal the damage. And it may extend even beyond humanity: maybe all of humanity needs to share the burden of what another (alien) part of sentient beinghood has done. It is truly a cosmic issue, but one that we can begin to address on our tiny level here and now, simply because ‘we are all in this together’.

No. Some of the thoughts are admirable but it’s overintellectualization.
What you are proposing necessitates not only a very high degree of ‘morality’ but for it to be actualized by all involved. That won’t ever happen. Wrong species.

On another thread it’s recently posted that artifacts indicate humans have been here for over 130,000 years. In 130,000 the piss poor condition of the planet is what humans have managed. Still idealists just don’t catch on. When standing in awe of the lack of social achievement of the species self-defense from other humans can be seen as a spiritual issue. I believe moral evolvement is far more individualistic than communal. You can hold up a high standard and hope many will try to attain it but it is far more likely that large numbers will filter the ideals through their self-interest, seek to impose their self-interest on others under the banner of the moral or ideal. I’m not an expert on agenda 21 or the communitarianism movement but ideals regarding communalism are being put out to citizens in various areas with the belief by some that the probable goal is a ploy for austerity for the many by the few.

I have a cousin who recently completed a drug rehab program. Now that she is getting her energy back she has a new idea and lofty goal for achievement every day. Her addictions counselor said to her, “Aim for the mediocre”!! I cracked up laughing. My cousin was insulted but I saw the wisdom in what she was told.

Humans love heroes. We never stop writing and making movies about them cause they achieve a level of morality that most of us never can or will. Humans have difficulty with common sense and practical solutions when in a group involving one single problem. But when idealism as the main focal point finds its way into political platforms I think of Marx, Mao, agenda 21, etc. and the inclination to enforce ideals. If you belong to the group that is being enforced on you will just turn around and manufacture another set of ideals to ‘free’ yourself from ideals which you will claim is oppression.
We need more boring pragmatists not idealists.

[marique3652]

"Are you saying that raping young girls to death is a prominent feature of Muslim countries? They have a long way to go in terms of gender equality, granted, but this incident would be considered deplorable by the majority of Muslims. Though you appear to be struggling with generalizing from specifics, your following statements continue to do just that."

"Islamic people are zero threat to Americans who were born in the U.S. You could absorb hundreds of thousands and it would barely make a dent in your cultural values. The greatest threat or contagion from Islam, would be having more 'ethnic foods' and restaurants to choose from. And seeing as most of us have been inoculated by eating humus, it might actually be a win win.

I may accuse you of generalizing as well when you say there is NO threat. May I ask for you to substantiate that Islamic people are ZERO threat to Americans born in the US? What is your substantiating facts that lead you to your conclusion? I am only interested in facts and not your opinion or world view. My view comes from many sources, a direct ongoing 20 year friendship with an Muslim woman in Iraq who was raised with Muslim ideology, who has lived through experiences at the hands of Muslim men that you have never had. Have you lived with Muslims, have you ever even talked with a muslim man and woman? I read the news, watch the news daily, as see a lot of what happens when a country ends up with peoples whose values are very opposed to one another. I correspond daily with a dear male non-muslim friend in Paris who tells me of all the negative changes in Paris as the result of out of control immigration. If you can prove to me factually that there is ZERO threat to our country, then I will be very surprised. Have your even read the Quran, have you taken the time to read all the information available about what Sharia law is. I have read the Quran twice and I also have greatly studied the Sharia Law system. Have you? I am sure you are thinking that my beliefs come from heresay, and I will beat you to the punch by saying yes a lot is heresay from dear friends who are actually living with Muslims. But I also have done extensive research in quest for answers, and wondering if you did too. I am just interested in how you came to the conclusion that there is no threat to this country, and want to point out that you are just as guilty of generalizing. We will never agree just wanted to point out what you said and await your explanation as to why they pose ZERO threat to America?? I am very interested.

[araucaria]

No. Some of the thoughts are admirable but it’s overintellectualization.
What you are proposing necessitates not only a very high degree of ‘morality’ but for it to be actualized by all involved. That won’t ever happen. Wrong species.
No. That’s underintellectualization. You have a totally static notion of species. Since the species in question started out with a reptilian brain, it has had two brain upgrades, not to mention countless other types of upgrade. I reckon another is in the pipeline. Your low degree of morality characterizes modern western civilization, but that is all: we know that so-called ‘primitive’ societies have done much better. It won’t ever happen? It already has done, lots of times. For a start, a return to native American standards would be a big step in the right direction.


We need more boring pragmatists not idealists.
Check out how many times I have quoted William James’s ‘Pragmatism’ (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?54731-What-is-Truth&p=622591&viewfull=1#post622591) on this forum: thirteen. Some idealist! You think I am not talking about personal and collective responsibility on the basis of a certain amount of personal experience? You’ve got to be joking. Solidarity works in moral matters just as plainly as it does coping with physical burdens. Altruism works, regardless of how many people have forgotten. I can only surmise that you are using notions of idealism and pragmatism in a manner that is foreign to my understanding. Check this (http://www.matthieuricard.org/en/books/altruism-the-power-of-compassion-to-change-yourself-and-the-world)out: Matthieu Ricard sounds like he ought to be an idealist – he’s a Buddhist monk – but he’s actually a pragmatist: ‘Altruism is a careful, detailed, hard-nosed assessment of what is needed both for individual happiness and for the welfare of the planet’ (my emphasis).

[TargeT]

"Are you saying that raping young girls to death is a prominent feature of Muslim countries? They have a long way to go in terms of gender equality, granted, but this incident would be considered deplorable by the majority of Muslims. Though you appear to be struggling with generalizing from specifics, your following statements continue to do just that."


"Islamic people are zero threat to Americans who were born in the U.S. You could absorb hundreds of thousands and it would barely make a dent in your cultural values. The greatest threat or contagion from Islam, would be having more 'ethnic foods' and restaurants to choose from. And seeing as most of us have been inoculated by eating humus, it might actually be a win win.I may accuse you of generalizing as well when you say there is NO threat. May I ask for you to substantiate that Islamic people are ZERO threat to Americans born in the US? What is your substantiating facts that lead you to your conclusion? I am only interested in facts and not your opinion or world view. My view comes from many sources, a direct ongoing 20 year friendship with an Muslim woman in Iraq who was raised with Muslim ideology, who has lived through experiences at the hands of Muslim men that you have never had. Have you lived with Muslims, have you ever even talked with a muslim man and woman? I read the news, watch the news daily, as see a lot of what happens when a country ends up with peoples whose values are very opposed to one another. I correspond daily with a dear male non-muslim friend in Paris who tells me of all the negative changes in Paris as the result of out of control immigration. If you can prove to me factually that there is ZERO threat to our country, then I will be very surprised. Have your even read the Quran, have you taken the time to read all the information available about what Sharia law is. I have read the Quran twice and I also have greatly studied the Sharia Law system. Have you? I am sure you are thinking that my beliefs come from heresay, and I will beat you to the punch by saying yes a lot is heresay from dear friends who are actually living with Muslims. But I also have done extensive research in quest for answers, and wondering if you did too. I am just interested in how you came to the conclusion that there is no threat to this country, and want to point out that you are just as guilty of generalizing. We will never agree just wanted to point out what you said and await your explanation as to why they pose ZERO threat to America?? I am very interested.

We have had several mass shootings in the recent past that show us even a tiny influx of muslims DOES negatively effect the US, culturally and violently.

That statement is undeniably false, and already proven many times.

Lets go back just 10 years and see what we find: 43 attacks (most ended in fatalities or multiple fatalities) by muslims (https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/american-attacks.aspx)... we already know what happens when you mix oil and water cultures... and it's not good.

[Sierra]

Autumn,

I'm a bit confused here.


Islamic people are zero threat to Americans who were born in the U.S. You could absorb hundreds of thousands and it would barely make a dent in your cultural values. The greatest threat or contagion from Islam, would be having more 'ethnic foods' and restaurants to choose from. And seeing as most of us have been inoculated by eating humus, it might actually be a win win.

Are you speaking of Islamic people born and raised in the U.S. and are therefore American citizens, are zero threat? I'd say they are for the most part no more dangerous than any other American born citizen, which is not to say zero.

Statistically, I'd say more American Muslims are being targeted by violence rather than executors of violence, a facet of the times we live in.

[abmqa]

]If we don't start differentiating in our thinking, speaking and discussing, that is, being careful how we name things, discussion is meaningless.

You are absolutely correct with this statement


The purpose of modern immigration is to dilute and disempower the white race in every white or formerly white country.


The globalists are white but they do not practice 'diversity' or identify with whites outside of their class. They preach and mandate diversity to us peasants but they marry only their own class - that is what a ruling class does.

Your comments started me thinking. In particular where you say the "white race" and "white country".

It made me wonder what does it mean to be "White"? But not only white in a "white society" but the social impacts that affect all of the people living in a "white country" or society.

The following is a perspective from a "white" person.

I'd be very interested in hearing your views.

By Robin DiAngelo

I AM white. I have spent years studying what it means to be white in a society that proclaims race meaningless, yet is deeply divided by race. This is what I have learned: Any white person living in the United States will develop opinions about race simply by swimming in the water of our culture.

But mainstream sources — schools, textbooks, media and anecdotal evidence — don’t provide us with the multiple perspectives we need. Yes, we will develop strong emotionally laden opinions, but they will not be informed opinions. Our socialization renders us racially illiterate.

This illiteracy was evident in the debate about the Seattle Gilbert & Sullivan Society production of “The Mikado” and its casting of non-Asian actors in 40 Japanese roles.

To understand the crux of white racial illiteracy illustrated by the debate, consider a typical computer user. The user is proficient and knows all the basics — Word, email, spreadsheets. But when the user has a technical problem and tries to explain it to the IT department, communication breaks down. The user gets defensive, feeling talked down to by tech support. Tech support gets frustrated because the user doesn’t know how computers actually work and can’t comprehend its instructions.

Like a nontechnical user trying to understand a technical problem, our racial illiteracy limits our ability to have meaningful conversations about race.

Mainstream dictionary definitions reduce racism to racial prejudice and the personal actions that result. But this definition does little to explain how racial hierarchies are consistently reproduced.

Social scientists define racism as a multidimensional, highly adaptive system — a system that ensures an unequal distribution of resources among racial groups. The group that controls the institutions controls the distribution and embeds its racial bias into the fabric of society.

In the U.S., while individual whites might be against racism, they still benefit from their group’s control. Yes, an individual person of color can sit at the tables of power, but the overwhelming majority of decision-makers will be white. Yes, white people can have problems and face barriers, but systematic racism won’t be one of them.

This distinction — between individual prejudice and a system of unequal institutionalized racial power — is fundamental. One cannot understand how racism functions in the U.S. today if one ignores group power relations.

While the following do not apply to every white person, they are well-documented white patterns and beliefs that make it difficult for white people to understand racism as a system:

• Segregation: Most whites live, grow, play, learn, love, work and die primarily in racial segregation. Yet, our society does not teach us to see this as a loss. Pause for a moment and consider the magnitude of this message: We lose nothing of value by not having cross-racial relationships. In fact, the whiter our schools and neighborhoods are, the more likely they are to be seen as “good.” This is an example of the relentless messages of white superiority that circulate all around us, shaping our identities and perspectives.

• Individualism: Whites are taught to see themselves as individuals, rather than as part of a racial group. It follows that we are racially objective and thus can represent the universal human experience, while people of color can only represent their race. Seeing ourselves as unracialized individuals, we take umbrage when generalizations are made about us as a group. This enables us to ignore systemic racial patterns.

• Focus on intentions over impact: We are taught that racism must be intentional and that only bad people commit it. Thus a common white reasoning in cross-racial conflicts is that as long as we are good people and didn’t intend to perpetuate racism, then our actions don’t count as racism. But racism doesn’t depend on conscious intent. In fact, much of racism is unconscious. Further, when we focus on intent we are essentially saying that the impact of our behavior on others is irrelevant.

• White fragility: In a white dominant society, challenges to a white worldview are uncommon. The racial status quo is comfortable for us. We haven’t had to develop the skills, perspectives, or humility that would help us engage constructively. As a result, we have very little tolerance for racial discomfort and respond poorly.

Putting this all together, you get the outcomes we see in “The Mikado” controversy.

When actors audition, they are most often judged by white people, using white standards for roles written by white writers and intended for white audiences. The outcomes of a specific audition are the cumulative result of this historic control.

Precisely because the system reflects white interests and worldview, white people will not see any of this in racial terms. They are confident that we can represent all of humanity — if no Asian actors apply, we don’t question casting efforts.

Because the egregious depictions of Asians in the opera are not intended as racist (and because so many whites enjoy these depictions), the racist impact is denied. When racism is pointed out, umbrage ensues.

The understanding of racism as a social system of unequal power is generally termed antiracism. An antiracism framework will help any white person become more racially literate and navigate most any racial conflict. We can begin by acknowledging ourselves as having a particular and necessarily limited perspective on race. That acknowledgment engenders humility rather than certitude.

Thinking in terms of structures and patterns, not individual acts or good and bad people, is foundational. Putting ourselves in situations that challenge and stretch our racial worldviews, while uncomfortable, builds our racial stamina.

Finally, we need to focus on impact rather than intent. On Aug. 18, the Seattle Repertory Theatre and the City of Seattle are holding a community dialogue about “The Mikado.” This is a great opportunity for whites to practice these skills.

Let me be clear. I don’t see myself or other whites as bad. Racism is a system that we did not create, but it’s one that we did inherit. We must take responsibility to see and challenge it both within and around us. The first step? Have some humility and listen.

Robin DiAngelo is an associate professor of education at Westfield State University in Massachusetts. She teaches and writes extensively on whiteness. Her latest book is “What Does it Mean to Be White? Developing White Racial Literacy.

Sorry about the misaligned quotes. I'm such a noob to this editing system

Hi Abmqa
Sorry for the delay in responding, you had asked my opinion on the Teacher/Agent above's mind control course. Why do I call her an agent? Many moons ago I was an activist in college. I belonged to socialist and feminist activities. We would worry about government Cointelpro provocateurs of any sort disrupting meetings and events. If you go to Wikipedia they will claim that the gov disbanded Cointelpro. If you believe that I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. Not only do I not believe cointelpro was disbanded but because of technology and the global village it has become huge, well funded and elaborate. There are quite a number of these 'teachers' around teaching being caucasian is the same as having an infectious disease. My money is that they will never direct the poison towards the whites who own the banks and corporations in the western world - why? It is these whites through their many layers of control who are funneling remuneration to these teacher/agents. The purpose of their poison is to make the average caucasian who never hurt anyone, who is struggling to survive, have no control over history or current events, feel like crap. It is evil. I have alluded to why the white ruling class of the west needs to decimate caucasian culture on the road to their one world government and don't wish to go into it here. Suffice to say - IMHO - she is a paid agent. Thx

Hi Helene,

Apology not needed, I'm sure you have a life outside of PA and life keeps us busy. I will attempt to address your reply point by point.

If I understand you correctly, you believe that Ms DiAngelo is an agent of the FBI's counter intelligence program???

Do you have proof of this? Some evidence other then that you are aware of such programs?? I feel that if you are going to make such an accusation, you should at least provide some evidence. Sorry, just because you believe it, doesn't make it true.

You say that you participated socialist and feminist activities. Did you know that you were part of a CIA funded operation. See link below:

http://www.rense.com/general21/hw.htm

Of course the FBI's COINTELPRO was never disbanded. It is very evident in the recent news which reported Trump's ties to Russia etc is being investigated. That is one example of the FBI conducting counter-intelligence. The FBI sees it as their job to infiltrate through covert ops if necessary, groups that they believe are against the status quo, or goes against the current govt doctrine. They will also infiltrate anti-war groups or any groups that are counter to current govt policy.

You make claims like:


There are quite a number of these 'teachers' around teaching being caucasian is the same as having an infectious disease.


Do you have evidence or is this your opinion?


My money is that they will never direct the poison towards the whites who own the banks and corporations in the western world - why? It is these whites through their many layers of control who are funneling remuneration to these teacher/agents. The purpose of their poison is to make the average caucasian who never hurt anyone, who is struggling to survive, have no control over history or current events, feel like crap. It is evil.

I firmly disagree with the above statement as Ms. DiAngelo clearly states the following:


The group that controls the institutions controls the distribution and embeds its racial bias into the fabric of society.

What group controls institutions?

Also, you appear to claim her words as poison?? Can you please be more specific?

I feel that Ms. DiAngelo made numerous cogent statements, none of which you addressed directly.

I would like to suggest that instead of attacking the messenger, you should try attacking the message.

IMO, it's easy to dismiss the person as ...fill in the blank..... instead of addressing the statements that make you uncomfortable.

I patiently look forward to your reply

Best regards

[TargeT]

You make claims like:


There are quite a number of these 'teachers' around teaching being caucasian is the same as having an infectious disease.


Do you have evidence or is this your opinion?

non-whites have courses to celebrate their heritage, "whites" have classes to teach them to be guilty and feel bad; want an example? It's in most universities now...


Whiteness Studies (http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/263671/ugly-racism-whiteness-studies-programs-john-perazzo) and it first started in the 1990's (so we are at 27 years of building bigotry)




My money is that they will never direct the poison towards the whites who own the banks and corporations in the western world - why? It is these whites through their many layers of control who are funneling remuneration to these teacher/agents. The purpose of their poison is to make the average caucasian who never hurt anyone, who is struggling to survive, have no control over history or current events, feel like crap. It is evil.

I firmly disagree with the above statement as Ms. DiAngelo clearly states the following:


The group that controls the institutions controls the distribution and embeds its racial bias into the fabric of society.

Sounds like your both saying the same thing, you just don't see the racial bias as against whites (if you see it that way, her statement makes complete sense when paired with the above quote) perhaps it was a Freudian slip? ;)

The only constant is change, and the pendulum ALWAYS swings back the other way... welcome to the new racism (it's against whites; has LEGAL backing and is prevalent in MSM and universities).

[abmqa]

I'd like to report a personal story — just as it happened. If a camera had been following me, this is what it'd have recorded.

Many years ago, in the early 2000s, I was driving through Leicester, in England, which I didn't know very well. I did know it was the first city in the UK where the white British population was a minority, but I'd hardly spent any time there.

From Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leicester):



Ethnicity (2011)[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leicester#cite_note-2011censusdemo-4)


45.1% White British
5.4% Other White
37.1% Asian
6.2% Black
3.5% Mixed Race
2.6% other

I needed a haircut, so I stopped and parked where I could see there was a hairdresser's. I walked in.

17 Pakistani faces, all sitting or working there, simultaneously turned and stared at me. I was shocked, and probably looked it. Almost instinctively, I turned round and walked out. It was a totally bizarre experience, and one that I'd been quite unprepared for.

Clearly, this was not a hairdresser's for white Englishmen. I was the one out of place there.

I did not have a haircut that day. I dwelt on the incident all the way home, which was quite some distance away.

Now, I am not a racist. I live in Ecuador, and love the local people. I prefer their company to most Americans I see here. I'd certainly rather live here than in England or the US.

One of my friends I'm closer to than almost anyone else is Puerto Rican. I spent my young childhood in Ghana and Nigeria, and I love the African people. I've visited Africa many times since then, and have traveled extensively there — also in India, Nepal and Thailand. I'm a global citizen, really. I don't even like English people, very much. :)

I spent a lot of time thinking about that brief incident in Leicester. There was something wrong. But it was nothing to do with color of skin, religion, or race.

It was about culture.

Hi Bill,

Thanks for your post. It reminded me of when I was stationed at RAF Mildenhall in the UK, 1982 -1986 or so. I lived off base in the town of Bury St. Edmunds. I remember my first visit to a Pub. (short for public house) I walked in and everybody turned and looked/stared at me. It felt like I had walked into the twilight zone.

Guess what I did? I walked over to the bar and ordered a pint. I struck up a conversation with the Pub owner named Mac. (Mac was/is such a nice person) It turned out that he was very interested in military aircraft. There are groups of Brits that sit outside the base near the flight-line and write down tail numbers of the various airplanes coming and going (I thought some of them were spies, lol but most of them were just keen on military aircraft)

The Queens Head Pub, had a few "regulars" and in short time I became one of them. I made many friends. Mac taught me how to throw darts and before long I was consistently beating him. I got so proficient the Pub's dart team asked me to join them. I went on to be very successful only losing one match the entire time I was on the team. (losing a close match to a woman, gawd, the team teased me endlessly. I could tell you dart stories all day long)

I became close friends with Mac. I had my own Pint Mug on a special shelf for "regulars". After he closed the Pub for the night, a few select regulars could stay and could drink for free. I used to love "pulling" my own pint from the bar. If I got too intoxicated, (which happened more than once) I had a choice. Mac would have me stay in a guest room or else he would call a taxi for me.

I look back fondly on that time.

[TargeT]

I remember my first visit to a Pub. (short for public house) I walked in and everybody turned and looked/stared at me. It felt like I had walked into the twilight zone.

Guess what I did? I walked over to the bar and ordered a pint. I struck up a conversation

with about 4 exceptions, this is everywhere I visit to eat or drink for the last 4.5 years... haha, but I love meeting the new people and don't let the quasi-shocked looks set me back and after a few visits your just another person.

I think I represent an 8% minority on this island.

[abmqa]

You make claims like:

[QUOTE]There are quite a number of these 'teachers' around teaching being caucasian is the same as having an infectious disease.


Do you have evidence or is this your opinion?

non-whites have courses to celebrate their heritage, "whites" have classes to teach them to be guilty and feel bad; want an example? It's in most universities now...


Whiteness Studies (http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/263671/ugly-racism-whiteness-studies-programs-john-perazzo)
and it first started in the 1990's (so we are at 27 years of building bigotry)

Wrong!! Try over 227 years of building bigotry and racism. Your bias is clearly shown by this statement. SMH




My money is that they will never direct the poison towards the whites who own the banks and corporations in the western world - why? It is these whites through their many layers of control who are funneling remuneration to these teacher/agents. The purpose of their poison is to make the average caucasian who never hurt anyone, who is struggling to survive, have no control over history or current events, feel like crap. It is evil.

I firmly disagree with the above statement as Ms. DiAngelo clearly states the following:


The group that controls the institutions controls the distribution and embeds its racial bias into the fabric of society.

Sounds like your both saying the same thing, you just don't see the racial bias as against whites (if you see it that way, her statement makes complete sense when paired with the above quote) perhaps it was a Freudian slip? ;)

The only constant is change, and the pendulum ALWAYS swings back the other way... welcome to the new racism (it's against whites; has LEGAL backing and is prevalent in MSM and universities).

Target - is your name Helene? This post was addressed to her. I'm sure Helene can answer for herself. Although you are free to pipe in, why not reply to post #30 in this thread, which is addressed to you???

We are not saying the same thing. I understood Helene to say that this Agent?? teacher will not point the criticism at those who control the system. While the referenced statement is exactly where Ms DiAngelo places the blame. Also, I asked for proof that Ms DiAngelo is an agent for the FBI. You, like Helene, would rather attack the messenger instead of the message.

When you say the "whites" have classes to teach them to be guilty and feel bad are you referring to "American History"? I have taken those same classes and as an American I have never felt "guilt" or felt "bad. History is history, I cannot change what happened in the past. I can learn from it though.

One other thing. In college, courses are not mandatory, they are available. In primary and high school students have no choice.


welcome to the new racism (it's against whites; has LEGAL backing and is prevalent in MSM and universities).

No thanks, I have experienced enough bigotry and racism in my life. I really don't need to see it here in order to recognize it.

[Helene West]

Abmqa,
I'm a fan of miles mathis, essayist on for want of a better expression, cultural deconstruction, who has been discussed in other places in this forum. Like him, I believe there are departments in Langley, VA et al where there are think tank groups that come up with ideas for cultural division and put them out into the society. They disrupt, or co-opt or create organizations. They create and take down websites and personalities. They write constant articles in the media of their masters, the international ruling class, and they have agents teaching classes on Whiteness = Badness. As I mentioned I was very politically active when I was in college and had to be concerned with paid agents and/or paid thugs disrupting meetings and events (this was before computers). Today cultural disinfo is more sophisticated and elaborate.
Now if I believe this whore (sorry but that's how I see her) is some sort of cointelpro agent I'm really going to give my time immersing myself in Intel crap so you can be entertained.

She's teaching the course for you, not me. Langley has created it for you, not me, they know I'm not taking it, lol!

I mainly write the things I do on this subject, besides healthy venting for myself, for some whites. I have met so many whites over the years that know, they feel, see, read and experience the forces gathering to culturally and emotionally ghettoize us, to keep us separate from the other races, so we can be the convenient 'fall guy' for the white elites, but they cannot express it or maybe are too shy or scared. The AIM is to keep ordinary white people as The OTHER. That is the purpose of your friend's class. Keep us, the underclass whites as the scapegoats, while keeping the big con going that me and mine have some special privileges compared to my neighbors and co-workers who are non-whites, some secret access to power. As Target above put the broad strokes short and sweet that every one else gets to celebrate their race/ethnicity, we get Whiteness = Badness. As I mentioned several times, life is nothing but change. Racism has changed. You're playing coy, you're not dumb. You just like it.

[AutumnW]

"Are you saying that raping young girls to death is a prominent feature of Muslim countries? They have a long way to go in terms of gender equality, granted, but this incident would be considered deplorable by the majority of Muslims. Though you appear to be struggling with generalizing from specifics, your following statements continue to do just that."

"Islamic people are zero threat to Americans who were born in the U.S. You could absorb hundreds of thousands and it would barely make a dent in your cultural values. The greatest threat or contagion from Islam, would be having more 'ethnic foods' and restaurants to choose from. And seeing as most of us have been inoculated by eating humus, it might actually be a win win.

I may accuse you of generalizing as well when you say there is NO threat. May I ask for you to substantiate that Islamic people are ZERO threat to Americans born in the US? What is your substantiating facts that lead you to your conclusion? I am only interested in facts and not your opinion or world view. My view comes from many sources, a direct ongoing 20 year friendship with an Muslim woman in Iraq who was raised with Muslim ideology, who has lived through experiences at the hands of Muslim men that you have never had. Have you lived with Muslims, have you ever even talked with a muslim man and woman? I read the news, watch the news daily, as see a lot of what happens when a country ends up with peoples whose values are very opposed to one another. I correspond daily with a dear male non-muslim friend in Paris who tells me of all the negative changes in Paris as the result of out of control immigration. If you can prove to me factually that there is ZERO threat to our country, then I will be very surprised. Have your even read the Quran, have you taken the time to read all the information available about what Sharia law is. I have read the Quran twice and I also have greatly studied the Sharia Law system. Have you? I am sure you are thinking that my beliefs come from heresay, and I will beat you to the punch by saying yes a lot is heresay from dear friends who are actually living with Muslims. But I also have done extensive research in quest for answers, and wondering if you did too. I am just interested in how you came to the conclusion that there is no threat to this country, and want to point out that you are just as guilty of generalizing. We will never agree just wanted to point out what you said and await your explanation as to why they pose ZERO threat to America?? I am very interested.

My 'opinion' is that you have come to the forum to whip up anti-Muslim sentiment. I don't believe the story about the young girl. Sorry. I know atrocities happen amd I know Arab countries are backwards -- in large part due to the Israeli mandate that they be bombed back to the Stone Age when they reach a certain level of sophistication and advancement.

I have had experience with Muslims and hate the way they treat women, cousin marriage, etc...but absolutely feel you are trolling here and that there is (next to) zero threat to native born Americans from immigrants from Arab countries. They are vastly outnumbered.

Btw, my brother in law converted to Islam, so really...I do know something about this issue. Did I like his mullahs? No, I couldn't stand them. But I never felt they were a threat to me or anybody else. They caused our family great grief, though.

[AutumnW]

Autumn,

I'm a bit confused here.


Islamic people are zero threat to Americans who were born in the U.S. You could absorb hundreds of thousands and it would barely make a dent in your cultural values. The greatest threat or contagion from Islam, would be having more 'ethnic foods' and restaurants to choose from. And seeing as most of us have been inoculated by eating humus, it might actually be a win win.

Are you speaking of Islamic people born and raised in the U.S. and are therefore American citizens, are zero threat? I'd say they are for the most part no more dangerous than any other American born citizen, which is not to say zero.

Statistically, I'd say more American Muslims are being targeted by violence rather than executors of violence, a facet of the times we live in.

I don't think properly vetted Arab immigrants are an existential threat and as it isn't easy to get into the U.S, they probably are vetted pretty thoroughly. And obviously those born in America are no threat.

They are much more likely to be UNDER threat in the U.S with all the pig headed bigotry, newly coined as 'nationalism.'

[marique3652]

Autumn,

I'm a bit confused here.


Islamic people are zero threat to Americans who were born in the U.S. You could absorb hundreds of thousands and it would barely make a dent in your cultural values. The greatest threat or contagion from Islam, would be having more 'ethnic foods' and restaurants to choose from. And seeing as most of us have been inoculated by eating humus, it might actually be a win win.

Are you speaking of Islamic people born and raised in the U.S. and are therefore American citizens, are zero threat? I'd say they are for the most part no more dangerous than any other American born citizen, which is not to say zero.

Statistically, I'd say more American Muslims are being targeted by violence rather than executors of violence, a facet of the times we live in.

I think I may have not understood what Autumn was saying, I did not pick up the nuance that she was referring to Muslims who have grown up in the US and are citizens. The misplaced adjective tripped me up and so I misinterpreted that part of it. In that case I still disagree that there is ZERO threat, but I think that the US residing Muslim citizens are not as imminent a threat, the Muslims that I feel may pose a threat are the ones coming into the country that come in illegally and chose not to assimilate into our culture and create violence and exhibit a behavior of defiance and ones desiring domination.

I do tend to agree somewhat with Sierra that Muslim citizens here are threatened and victims of violence often as well.

I found an interesting link with lots of statistic worth perusing, but cannot at all verify if it is a realistic picture or one that is meant to create a conclusion that may or may not be correct. Here is the link for all interested. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/america-and-muslims-by-the-numbers/

[abmqa]

Abmqa,
I'm a fan of miles mathis, essayist on for want of a better expression, cultural deconstruction, who has been discussed in other places in this forum. Like him, I believe there are departments in Langley, VA et al where there are think tank groups that come up with ideas for cultural division and put them out into the society. They disrupt, or co-opt or create organizations. They create and take down websites and personalities. They write constant articles in the media of their masters, the international ruling class, and they have agents teaching classes on Whiteness = Badness. As I mentioned I was very politically active when I was in college and had to be concerned with paid agents and/or paid thugs disrupting meetings and events (this was before computers). Today cultural disinfo is more sophisticated and elaborate.
Now if I believe this whore (sorry but that's how I see her) is some sort of cointelpro agent I'm really going to give my time immersing myself in Intel crap so you can be entertained.

She's teaching the course for you, not me. Langley has created it for you, not me, they know I'm not taking it, lol!

I mainly write the things I do on this subject, besides healthy venting for myself, for some whites. I have met so many whites over the years that know, they feel, see, read and experience the forces gathering to culturally and emotionally ghettoize us, to keep us separate from the other races, so we can be the convenient 'fall guy' for the white elites, but they cannot express it or maybe are too shy or scared. The AIM is to keep ordinary white people as The OTHER. That is the purpose of your friend's class. Keep us, the underclass whites as the scapegoats, while keeping the big con going that me and mine have some special privileges compared to my neighbors and co-workers who are non-whites, some secret access to power. As Target above put the broad strokes short and sweet that every one else gets to celebrate their race/ethnicity, we get Whiteness = Badness. As I mentioned several times, life is nothing but change. Racism has changed. You're playing coy, you're not dumb. You just like it.

Hi Helene - thank you kindly for your reply.

I'll make this post brief. Since you apparently refuse to address Ms DiAngelo's many point's and would rather attack her (she is a FBI Agent Whore now??)

I see no point in us continuing this debate. The fact that racism and bigotry exists in the world today IMO is worth debating.

However, personal attacks and insinuations as you have made are not worthy IMO, as nothing can be learned or gained by engaging in such activities.

I was hoping that we could debate the many IMO, valid points that Ms DiAngelo has made. However, you would rather attack her, the person.

Not me. I choose to not debase myself further by replying to posts like yours where the message is ignored and personal attacks are elevated.

It is clear to me that we hold very different moral values, and I refuse to change mine in order to engage you in debate.

Best regards

[Helene West]

Abmqa,
I'm a fan of miles mathis, essayist on for want of a better expression, cultural deconstruction, who has been discussed in other places in this forum. Like him, I believe there are departments in Langley, VA et al where there are think tank groups that come up with ideas for cultural division and put them out into the society. They disrupt, or co-opt or create organizations. They create and take down websites and personalities. They write constant articles in the media of their masters, the international ruling class, and they have agents teaching classes on Whiteness = Badness. As I mentioned I was very politically active when I was in college and had to be concerned with paid agents and/or paid thugs disrupting meetings and events (this was before computers). Today cultural disinfo is more sophisticated and elaborate.
Now if I believe this whore (sorry but that's how I see her) is some sort of cointelpro agent I'm really going to give my time immersing myself in Intel crap so you can be entertained.

She's teaching the course for you, not me. Langley has created it for you, not me, they know I'm not taking it, lol!

I mainly write the things I do on this subject, besides healthy venting for myself, for some whites. I have met so many whites over the years that know, they feel, see, read and experience the forces gathering to culturally and emotionally ghettoize us, to keep us separate from the other races, so we can be the convenient 'fall guy' for the white elites, but they cannot express it or maybe are too shy or scared. The AIM is to keep ordinary white people as The OTHER. That is the purpose of your friend's class. Keep us, the underclass whites as the scapegoats, while keeping the big con going that me and mine have some special privileges compared to my neighbors and co-workers who are non-whites, some secret access to power. As Target above put the broad strokes short and sweet that every one else gets to celebrate their race/ethnicity, we get Whiteness = Badness. As I mentioned several times, life is nothing but change. Racism has changed. You're playing coy, you're not dumb. You just like it.

Hi Helene - thank you kindly for your reply.

I'll make this post brief. Since you apparently refuse to address Ms DiAngelo's many point's and would rather attack her (she is a FBI Agent Whore now??)

I see no point in us continuing this debate. The fact that racism and bigotry exists in the world today IMO is worth debating.

However, personal attacks and insinuations as you have made are not worthy IMO, as nothing can be learned or gained by engaging in such activities.

I was hoping that we could debate the many IMO, valid points that Ms DiAngelo has made. However, you would rather attack her, the person.

Not me. I choose to not debase myself further by replying to posts like yours where the message is ignored and personal attacks are elevated.

It is clear to me that we hold very different moral values, and I refuse to change mine in order to engage you in debate.

Best regards

No problem, thx

[Sierra]

Helene,

I'm baffled by this white guilt thing. I've never heard about it until recently from a few members here. Given I grew up in a diverse urban community, I should have.

You may not like what I have to say, and I'm sorry for that, but when only a few people on Avalon talk about this white guilt thing, AND they are the same few people dismissive of the elephant in the room (so to speak) that racism does not exist, that horrific events have not happened, that we are not dealing with the generational fallout of a slaver and slave culture... I have to say, then in that case, if one truly believes "nothing happened", how can there be white guilt?

So I'm not buying the white guilt meme. It sounds to me like a code for recognition that here is a fellow soul that dismisses the past, and rewrites the present. If one dismisses the past, calls history false, uses it in service of the normalization of hatred (not speaking of you here, Helene) it begins to sound more like resentment.

The topic of racism, institutionalized hatred, is so huge, and the tentacles of deadly toxicity run everywhere.

Change of Subject:

Very hard to stay on topic, isn't it?

However, lol, this is Sam's thread, so I offer the following to the question he has asked us twice.

Sam, no, I'm not in favor of globalization. I'd hate to see all the lovely ethnic cultures I've experienced, vanish. I also think those whose culture is vanishing at the behest of the globalists are going to get pissed off, and then it will be, "Here we go again." :facepalm:

But let's imagine all cultures are the same, we all eat bologna and white bread, no one knows anything different the world over. It STILL won't work because if all authority is centralized, all beings everywhere, except those located at the global seat of government, will be screwed.

A ruler, ruling from a distance, cannot get it right.. I look at Russia, during their ever new, ever changing "five year plans", and the mess they made of it. Factories cranking out goods no one wanted or needed, constant, unending "1984" programming to keep the masses in line, KGB ready to bust your door down at night if you didn't, and all the goodies going to the "globalistic" state party communists in Moscow, because they were willing to become handlers, controllers of the general population, to get the goods.

It's an agenda of the elite, in my humble opinion.

[abmqa]

Autumn,

I'm a bit confused here.


Islamic people are zero threat to Americans who were born in the U.S. You could absorb hundreds of thousands and it would barely make a dent in your cultural values. The greatest threat or contagion from Islam, would be having more 'ethnic foods' and restaurants to choose from. And seeing as most of us have been inoculated by eating humus, it might actually be a win win.

Are you speaking of Islamic people born and raised in the U.S. and are therefore American citizens, are zero threat? I'd say they are for the most part no more dangerous than any other American born citizen, which is not to say zero.

Statistically, I'd say more American Muslims are being targeted by violence rather than executors of violence, a facet of the times we live in.

I think I may have not understood what Autumn was saying, I did not pick up the nuance that she was referring to Muslims who have grown up in the US and are citizens. The misplaced adjective tripped me up and so I misinterpreted that part of it. In that case I still disagree that there is ZERO threat, but I think that the US residing Muslim citizens are not as imminent a threat, the Muslims that I feel may pose a threat are the ones coming into the country that come in illegally and chose not to assimilate into our culture and create violence and exhibit a behavior of defiance and ones desiring domination.


I do tend to agree somewhat with Sierra that Muslim citizens here are threatened and victims of violence often as well.

I found an interesting link with lots of statistic worth perusing, but cannot at all verify if it is a realistic picture or one that is meant to create a conclusion that may or may not be correct. Here is the link for all interested. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/america-and-muslims-by-the-numbers/

Hi Marique,

I just wanted to relate to you something I witnessed. Shortly after 9-11, I went to Baskin Robbins for ice cream. As I approached the store there was a family sitting outside at a table having ice cream. I'm not sure if they were Muslims they looked to be from India - just guessing. Anyway as they sat there, they all had miniature US flags that they would wave every now and then. It struck me that they were afraid and were waving the US flags in order to show US patriotism so as not to get attacked. They were afraid because they looked similar to those who supposedly carried out the attacks on 9-11.

As I reflected on this, I thought how sad it is to have to live in fear, just because you look different.

[Helene West]

Helene,

I'm baffled by this white guilt thing. I've never heard about it until recently from a few members here. Given I grew up in a diverse urban community, I should have.

You may not like what I have to say, and I'm sorry for that, but when only a few people on Avalon talk about this white guilt thing, AND they are the same few people dismissive of the elephant in the room (so to speak) that racism does not exist, that horrific events have not happened, that we are not dealing with the generational fallout of a slaver and slave culture... I have to say, then in that case, if one truly believes "nothing happened", how can there be white guilt?

So I'm not buying the white guilt meme. It sounds to me like a code for recognition that here is a fellow soul that dismisses the past, and rewrites the present. If one dismisses the past, calls history false, uses it in service of the normalization of hatred (not speaking of you here, Helene) it begins to sound more like resentment.

The topic of racism, institutionalized hatred, is so huge, and the tentacles of deadly toxicity run everywhere.

Change of Subject:

Very hard to stay on topic, isn't it?

However, lol, this is Sam's thread, so I offer the following to the question he has asked us twice.

Sam, no, I'm not in favor of globalization. I'd hate to see all the lovely ethnic cultures I've experienced, vanish. I also think those whose culture is vanishing at the behest of the globalists are going to get pissed off, and then it will be, "Here we go again." :facepalm:

But let's imagine all cultures are the same, we all eat bologna and white bread, no one knows anything different the world over. It STILL won't work because if all authority is centralized, all beings everywhere, except those located at the global seat of government, will be screwed.

A ruler, ruling from a distance, cannot get it right.. I look at Russia, during their unending "five year plans", and the mess they made of it. Factories cranking out goods no one wanted or needed, constant, unending "1984" programming to keep the masses in line, KGB ready to bust your door down at night if you didn't, and all the goodies going to the "globalistic" state party communists in Moscow, because they were willing to become handlers, controllers of the general population, to get the goods.

It's an agenda of the elite, in my humble opinion.

You're entitled to your view. I said what I meant to. I'm well aware it's not popular. I'm not running for office. Don't need the vote. thx

[Sierra]

You're entitled to your view. I said what I meant to. I'm well aware it's not popular. I'm not running for office. Don't need the vote. thx

Not voting, not looking for votes, just responding in service of truth, as I see it (as you are). :)

[TargeT]

You're entitled to your view. I said what I meant to. I'm well aware it's not popular. I'm not running for office. Don't need the vote. thx

it's not something that appeared overnight, it's something that has been culturally instilled for many years now.

When objectively viewed, it's impossible to deny the racism against "whites" (what ever that is, it's so vague that it fits the MO of racism). There are literally laws that enforce the "anti white" sentiment. as well as courses at every major ivy league college to enforce white guilt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiteness_studies#Whiteness_and_education), TV shows that do the same, Movies that do the same, Popular sentiment that does the same... How conformist it is to still tote the all/most "whites are racist" flag... haha

This does not discount past actions, this is focused on what is happening RIGHT NOW. To not see it is very limiting, being objective when analyzing data should always be the goal. Facts are facts, and the literal laws that re-enforce anti-whiteness (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_quota) are there for anyone to see. The most egregious laws lasted until just one or two years ago (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action_in_the_United_States)...

[abmqa]

You're entitled to your view. I said what I meant to. I'm well aware it's not popular. I'm not running for office. Don't need the vote. thx

it's not something that appeared overnight, it's something that has been culturally instilled for many years now.

When objectively viewed, it's impossible to deny the racism against "whites" (what ever that is, it's so vague that it fits the MO of racism). There are literally laws that enforce the "anti white" sentiment. as well as courses at every major ivy league college to enforce white guilt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiteness_studies#Whiteness_and_education), TV shows that do the same, Movies that do the same, Popular sentiment that does the same... How conformist it is to still tote the all/most "whites are racist" flag... haha

This does not discount past actions, this is focused on what is happening RIGHT NOW. To not see it is very limiting, being objective when analyzing data should always be the goal. Facts are facts, and the literal laws that re-enforce anti-whiteness are there for anyone to see.What I see when I click on that link is an online publication pushing white supremacist ideology :

From wikipedia

American Renaissance, the New Century Foundation, or Taylor have had links with organizations such as the Council of Conservative Citizens, the Pioneer Fund, and the British National Party. Don Black and David Duke have attended AR conferences and have been seen talking with Taylor.[10][11] The organization has held bi-annual conferences that are open to the public and that attract 200–300 people. Critics say some who attend are neo-Nazis, white nationalists, white separatists, Holocaust deniers, and eugenicists.[12]
The online magazine is often described as a white supremacist publication; CNN, The Washington Post, Fortune, Slate, and the New York Daily News, among others, have reported on the magazine as such.[1][2][15][16][17]

The magazine and foundation promote the view that differences in educational outcomes and per capita incomes between racial populations can be attributed at least in part to differences in intelligence between races.

SMH, No wonder you hold the views that you do. Seems to me that if one advocates such websites as proof of your opinions, that says much about you.

I have experienced bigotry and racism for most of my life. When I joined PA I did not expect to have white supremacist messages of hatred and fear elevated and advocated.

Target - your post here has made it clear to me that we hold extremely different moral values. I will not debase my values or lower myself by engaging with you any further. IMO, it is pointless as I will never agree with you on this issue.

I am kindly and publicly requesting that you please refrain from commenting on any of my posts that are not directed at you. Please do not mention me or try to engage me at all. I promise from this point forward to show you the same courtesy.

Best regards

[TargeT]

What I see when I click on that link is an online publication pushing white supremacist ideology

Address the message, not the messenger, this is a very common logical fallacy......

Are you saying that Fisher v. University of Texas. did NOT happen? that court case is fantasy?



SMH, No wonder you hold the views that you do. Seems to me that if one advocates such websites as proof of your opinions, that says much about you.

What, I advocate what??? are you so unselfaware that you can't see what your doing right now?

PLEASE show me where I advocated anything... You are now lying about me and making slanderous statements, stop responding when you are emotional.. I cannot think you meant to do this.

I posted that link for the data in the article, I didn't research the messenger because that's pointless. I read the article and it's references. You are again, proudly pushing a logical fallacy..... allow me to turn the tables a bit.

I now understand a bit more why you think as you do, logic is extremely important when trying to understand a situation and logical fallacies (or mental short cuts) while extremely popular; are also extremely detrimental to the person that relies on them as tools for understanding or discussion.


I have experienced bigotry and racism for most of my life. When I joined PA I did not expect to have white supremacist messages of hatred and fear elevated and advocated.

You are accusing me of white supremacist, hatred and fear avocation?... is this because you have no argument and your ego needs some sort of come back?

is that what's happening or are you tossing up your victim card?

again, I said that I'm discussing what is happening right now, not in your past or mine; I'm sorry you had to deal with that it certainly is a ****ty situation. I have recently come to understand what it's like to live life "different" from most people as I live it 24/7 (and for the past 5 years).


Target - your post here has made it clear to me that we hold extremely different moral values. I will not debase my values or lower myself by engaging with you any further. IMO, it is pointless as I will never agree with you on this issue.

I am kindly and publicly requesting that you please refrain from commenting on any of my posts that are not directed at you. Please do not mention me or try to engage me at all. I promise from this point forward to show you the same courtesy.

Best regards

Really? because you didn't comment on a single thing I posted, you went strait for an attack on a website that I've never seen before, but now it's my whole life (convenient for you).


You just pigeonholed me, you just profiled me... all because of one link that I posted (and you completely ignored the content, just attacked the content provider).

What you are displaying here is exactly why there is a political divide, most of us do not know how to accept different opinions easily and at times we use these silly logical fallacies (because they are quick, easy mental shortcuts IMO, and deeply ingrained via media/schooling).


your "I'm taking my ball and going home" attitude doesn't do anything helpful.

I will now put you on ignore so I don't respond directly to your posts. I hope one day you will be able to objectively read things and absorb at least the thrust of this post.

[abmqa]

What I see when I click on that link is an online publication pushing white supremacist ideology

Address the message, not the messenger, this is a very common logical fallacy......

Are you saying that Fisher v. University of Texas. did NOT happen? that court case is fantasy?



SMH, No wonder you hold the views that you do. Seems to me that if one advocates such websites as proof of your opinions, that says much about you.

What, I advocate what??? are you so unselfaware that you can't see what your doing right now?

PLEASE show me where I advocated anything... You are now lying about me and making slanderous statements, stop responding when you are emotional.. I cannot think you meant to do this.

I posted that link for the data in the article, I didn't research the messenger because that's pointless. I read the article and it's references. You are again, proudly pushing a logical fallacy..... allow me to turn the tables a bit.

I now understand a bit more why you think as you do, logic is extremely important when trying to understand a situation and logical fallacies (or mental short cuts) while extremely popular; are also extremely detrimental to the person that relies on them as tools for understanding or discussion.


I have experienced bigotry and racism for most of my life. When I joined PA I did not expect to have white supremacist messages of hatred and fear elevated and advocated.

You are accusing me of white supremacist, hatred and fear avocation?... is this because you have no argument and your ego needs some sort of come back?

is that what's happening or are you tossing up your victim card?

again, I said that I'm discussing what is happening right now, not in your past or mine; I'm sorry you had to deal with that it certainly is a ****ty situation. I have recently come to understand what it's like to live life "different" from most people as I live it 24/7 (and for the past 5 years).


Target - your post here has made it clear to me that we hold extremely different moral values. I will not debase my values or lower myself by engaging with you any further. IMO, it is pointless as I will never agree with you on this issue.

I am kindly and publicly requesting that you please refrain from commenting on any of my posts that are not directed at you. Please do not mention me or try to engage me at all. I promise from this point forward to show you the same courtesy.

Best regards



I will now put you on ignore so I don't respond directly to your posts. I hope one day you will be able to objectively read things and absorb at least the thrust of this post.


Thank You Kindly

[Helene West]

You're entitled to your view. I said what I meant to. I'm well aware it's not popular. I'm not running for office. Don't need the vote. thx

it's not something that appeared overnight, it's something that has been culturally instilled for many years now.

When objectively viewed, it's impossible to deny the racism against "whites" (what ever that is, it's so vague that it fits the MO of racism). There are literally laws that enforce the "anti white" sentiment. as well as courses at every major ivy league college to enforce white guilt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiteness_studies#Whiteness_and_education), TV shows that do the same, Movies that do the same, Popular sentiment that does the same... How conformist it is to still tote the all/most "whites are racist" flag... haha

This does not discount past actions, this is focused on what is happening RIGHT NOW. To not see it is very limiting, being objective when analyzing data should always be the goal. Facts are facts, and the literal laws that re-enforce anti-whiteness are there for anyone to see. The most egregious laws lasted until just one or two years ago (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action_in_the_United_States)...

Thanks Target for the links.

Of course it's clear.

Whites are being colonized in their own countries. We're forced to call it - Immigration.

It helps the elites who are doing it to keep it misnamed. Most whites will call it that because like everyone else we get our reference points from the paradigm the elites manufacture for us.

It's a rare non-white person who will acknowledge the changing pendulum and the racism against whites. They are going to hold on tight to their oppressed status. Whether it's vengeance, their own racism/racial superiority complex, the belief it will give them a competitive edge in the material world or probably most important they loathe to acknowledge the shadow side of themselves that many embody the very qualities they have accused whites of, which would mean of course they are the same as white racists.

White liberals desperately do not want to belong to the targeted group (ordinary whites) so their technique in avoiding this is to become part of the Targeters.

I'm not concerned with constant back and forth with people who don't want to acknowledge racism against whites or have a vested interested in its proliferation. It's my energy, I don't have to dissipate it. I'm more interested in whites who are on the cusp of waking up from the psy-ops perpetrated against us for the past 3 generations or so. I actually believe it will help the planet for whites to wake up from the programming to turn against themselves. That is if we're all going to heal.

[AutumnW]

Helene,

There is a top down class war going on, woth racial and cultural overtones. It takes on many forms and there are desperate people from Mexico, Central America, caught up in poverty, trying to survive. I understand your frustration if you are living in poverty and illegals entering the country have impacted your livelihood. My heart goes out to you -- and I mean that sincerely.

I think that you should regard forums like Stormfront and Breitbart with a more open analytical mind though. Because they misrepresent, exaggerate and reframe problems to suit their ideology.

[Helene West]

Helene,

There is a top down class war going on, woth racial and cultural overtones. It takes on many forms and there are desperate people from Mexico, Central America, caught up in poverty, trying to survive. I understand your frustration if you are living in poverty and illegals entering the country have impacted your livelihood. My heart goes out to you -- and I mean that sincerely.

I think that you should regard forums like Stormfront and Breitbart with a more open analytical mind though. Because they misrepresent, exaggerate and reframe problems to suit their ideology.

Autumn
the only time I read a Breitbart article are the ones occasionally posted on this forum. This forum has become my main source of news it has so many good links, vids and articles i happily don't have to go to mainstream sites anymore. I heard of this Stormfront from miles mathis essays. He considers them an Intel creation and was created for misdirection and what many call controlled opposition so you may be right about them. I've no desire to check them out. I write from my life's experience and observation and readings. Believe it or not I feel for many people. The planet is a mess. It shouldn't preclude me speaking my own truth and one shouldn't have to shut the other up. thx

[AutumnW]

Helene, Stormfront for sure seems like controlled opposition. I do understand and empathize with your direct life experience and can't argue with that. Also, I don't completely disagree with all of your conclusions, either.

After the horrendous experience in my own family with two Islamic individuals, nobody could say anything positive about Islam to me without getting a humongous blast with a side order of stfu. It has taken me three years to sort through it all, calm down and try to get perspective.

These people, including the two @¥**!!* who did so much damage to my brother-in-law and my husband in particular, are likely victims too. If I knew more about them, how they had been manipulated since childhood, the crises they have been through, it's hard for me to maintain much anger, just sadness for the situation all around.

They are so medieval in mind set, their children and grandchildren will end up abandoning their faith and them too. So I am not worried that this situation is ongoing and will never be rectified.

Take care. I wish you happiness, in the midst of some disagreement.

[TargeT]

These people, including the two @¥**!!* who did so much damage to my brother-in-law and my husband in particular, are likely victims too. If I knew more about them, how they had been manipulated since childhood, the crises they have been through, it's hard for me to maintain much anger, just sadness for the situation all around.


That's an important realization, and your completely right. Think of how we here still struggle and we at least are aware of the (or at least some) pitfalls of the human condition, especially when it comes to strongly held belief (which causes us to physiologically respond as if we are being attacked (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbh5l0b2-0o), something we can see evidence of on this forum from time to time).

Those individuals you mention are probably very reactionary and don't even fully understand their own actions most the time; but those reactions are built on trauma and early family life (as most of ours are) and the chances of that being a positive healthy thing are very small in their situation (I'm over generalizing, and could be completely wrong for your specific circumstance.. but usually that's the case).

Plus they are brain washed much more vigorously than anyone in the west via Islam, it's hard to even conceive of that life style; or it was until I saw it first hand for 18 months.

I certainly don't condone the attacks that are going on in the EU; but I completely understand them as I know the "general vibe" of that culture... and, after understanding it... I even slightly agree with their take on western culture (definitely not with their methods of dealing with it).

But here's where we run into trouble, because if I state I am against immigration, the topic is already so emotionally charged that by making a statement for or against you immediately take on these extra thought constructs.. People assume they know your motivation for your feelings, you get pigeon holed and discussions go no where.


You seem to be able to accept the dissonance of at once feeling extreme betrayal and anger; but also seeing how those actions stem from larger issues and those individuals were not "evil incarnate", just more abused humans with an extremely different cultural background.

1Evwgu369Jw

[Hervé]

[Mod Hat: ON]

I have removed the embedded links to Jared Taylor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jared_Taylor)'s website American Renaissance since it is deemed a white supremacist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_supremacy) publication. The consensus on the Project Avalon team is to refuse to help promote such hatred.

[Mod Hat: OFF]





Additional note from Bill: I've made what I hope is a clear statement about this on the Moderators Actions thread.


http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?78116-RECORD-of-MODERATOR-ACTIONS&p=1150962&viewfull=1#post1150962 (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?78116-RECORD-of-MODERATOR-ACTIONS&p=1150962&viewfull=1#post1150962)

[AutumnW]

These people, including the two @¥**!!* who did so much damage to my brother-in-law and my husband in particular, are likely victims too. If I knew more about them, how they had been manipulated since childhood, the crises they have been through, it's hard for me to maintain much anger, just sadness for the situation all around.


That's an important realization, and your completely right. Think of how we here still struggle and we at least are aware of the (or at least some) pitfalls of the human condition, especially when it comes to strongly held belief (which causes us to physiologically respond as if we are being attacked (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbh5l0b2-0o), something we can see evidence of on this forum from time to time).

Those individuals you mention are probably very reactionary and don't even fully understand their own actions most the time; but those reactions are built on trauma and early family life (as most of ours are) and the chances of that being a positive healthy thing are very small in their situation (I'm over generalizing, and could be completely wrong for your specific circumstance.. but usually that's the case).

Plus they are brain washed much more vigorously than anyone in the west via Islam, it's hard to even conceive of that life style; or it was until I saw it first hand for 18 months.

I certainly don't condone the attacks that are going on in the EU; but I completely understand them as I know the "general vibe" of that culture... and, after understanding it... I even slightly agree with their take on western culture (definitely not with their methods of dealing with it).

But here's where we run into trouble, because if I state I am against immigration, the topic is already so emotionally charged that by making a statement for or against you immediately take on these extra thought constructs.. People assume they know your motivation for your feelings, you get pigeon holed and discussions go no where.


You seem to be able to accept the dissonance of at once feeling extreme betrayal and anger; but also seeing how those actions stem from larger issues and those individuals were not "evil incarnate", just more abused humans with an extremely different cultural background.

1Evwgu369Jw

Thanks Target,

Getting over reflexive hatred and or contempt nearly broke my brain but I hope I have successfully done it. Binary thinking is a 'safe space' that might as well be equipped with white chalk on a black chalkboard. Reality is more fluid, much more rubbery.

[Flash]

Those are interesting comments below:

I must tell a story of mine that happened in western Florida. I was there with Mini Flash, having dolphin therapies sessions for her, staying for a whole month, 3 years in a row.

I do have a strong accent in English (being French Canadian) as Target and Sierra who have heard me can attest.

We were renting in a small condos outlet not far from the beach, which had a swimming pool. My daughter had no friends and was getting bored.

At one point, two families came in the condo near ours for a few days, and they had a daughter the age of mine. So I told my daughter, wow a friend for you. The two little girls were getting along (my daughter speaks English without accent, although she is not always straight in grammar, being partially aphasic).

And we would speak French when speaking to each other, daughter and I.

So the mom of the little girl, hearing us, asked me - where are you from?- I answered - from Montreal - she said - where is Montreal? - I answered from Quebec, and looking at her face I added, in Canada - the third question, in that order, was - which religion are you from? I hesitated, in fact not remembering which religion I was from, surprised by the question. Then I pulled together and said - I have been raised catholic to which she answered - it is not Muslim.

Anyhow, the following days, her little girl did not play with mine, no fault of mine. Catholic was probably not good enough, and accented worst. I could imagine what being of Arab looking must have felt like. Or having to do with racism.

On the other hand, every country I have lived in, I did have racism against me, being White accented (lolllù) North American - sometimes others believing I know or I am more, coming from a rich continent, other times people despising me to the point of showing lots of hatred or disrespect because I was white or mostly they thought I was American. This kind of racism exist elsewhere too.




Autumn,

I'm a bit confused here.


Islamic people are zero threat to Americans who were born in the U.S. You could absorb hundreds of thousands and it would barely make a dent in your cultural values. The greatest threat or contagion from Islam, would be having more 'ethnic foods' and restaurants to choose from. And seeing as most of us have been inoculated by eating humus, it might actually be a win win.

Are you speaking of Islamic people born and raised in the U.S. and are therefore American citizens, are zero threat? I'd say they are for the most part no more dangerous than any other American born citizen, which is not to say zero.

Statistically, I'd say more American Muslims are being targeted by violence rather than executors of violence, a facet of the times we live in.

I think I may have not understood what Autumn was saying, I did not pick up the nuance that she was referring to Muslims who have grown up in the US and are citizens. The misplaced adjective tripped me up and so I misinterpreted that part of it. In that case I still disagree that there is ZERO threat, but I think that the US residing Muslim citizens are not as imminent a threat, the Muslims that I feel may pose a threat are the ones coming into the country that come in illegally and chose not to assimilate into our culture and create violence and exhibit a behavior of defiance and ones desiring domination.


I do tend to agree somewhat with Sierra that Muslim citizens here are threatened and victims of violence often as well.

I found an interesting link with lots of statistic worth perusing, but cannot at all verify if it is a realistic picture or one that is meant to create a conclusion that may or may not be correct. Here is the link for all interested. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/america-and-muslims-by-the-numbers/

Hi Marique,

I just wanted to relate to you something I witnessed. Shortly after 9-11, I went to Baskin Robbins for ice cream. As I approached the store there was a family sitting outside at a table having ice cream. I'm not sure if they were Muslims they looked to be from India - just guessing. Anyway as they sat there, they all had miniature US flags that they would wave every now and then. It struck me that they were afraid and were waving the US flags in order to show US patriotism so as not to get attacked. They were afraid because they looked similar to those who supposedly carried out the attacks on 9-11.

As I reflected on this, I thought how sad it is to have to live in fear, just because you look different.

[ThePythonicCow]

the topic is already so emotionally charged
Indeed - sad.

Our land of trust and sound rhetoric has been seeded with landmines.

Even to discuss the landmines risks triggering another explosion.

We must walk with caution on the lands that (speaking metaphorically) our forefathers ancestors hunt and plowed and tilled.

[Chester]

The Australian Prime Minister talks with Bret Baier

Start at around 1:45...

oY2m7eaIwbI

Bret: "Your immigration policy essentially says, If someone comes in illegally, they have to leave."

Malcolm Turnbull: "We are a very, very multicultural society and we have achieved that with a remarkable degree of harmony. Now, a foundation of that is the public having absolute confidence that their government and their government alone determines who comes to Australia, how long they stay, the terms and conditions on which they stay. That is our sovereign right and sovereign responsibility. So we have a generous humanitarian program but we say, if you seek to come to Australia unlawfully with the people smuggler, you will not succeed full stop. That is absolutely, absolutely fundamental.


Sam asks, "Is there anything to disagree about regarding Australia's immigration policy?"

"Is Turnbell (and Australia's) policy wrong... wrong to have... wrong to enforce?"

If so, please share the reasons.

If not, can anyone point out the difference between this policy and Australia's record for enforcement and the what Trump's agenda wants for the US?

Can anyone cite the reasons the US has a big problem with the matter and Australia doesn't?

[Ewan]

<snip>
Since the species in question started out with a reptilian brain, it has had two brain upgrades, not to mention countless other types of upgrade. I reckon another is in the pipeline.
<snip>


I don't think we'll get a third one until we've (collectively) better adapted our current version to handling the emotion sub-routine.

The Vulcans effectively incised their's by refusing to engage it, hence it atrophied away. Humans on the other hand have a wild horse that refuses to be tamed, breaking down the fences and running free at the most inappropriate times.

[petra]

Regarding DNA's post #6 above (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?97318-Trump-Illegal-immigration-Sam-s-view&p=1148687&viewfull=1#post1148687)...

One of my operational protocols is that I try my best not to represent any opinion I might hold as unequivocal fact. I am glad that DNA stated his opinion to be "his view." Just for the record, based on all my research and based on my perceived rise in "having a clue," I make odds pretty good that much if not all of what DNA suggests is likely true.

This view is also what I call, "a helicopter view." Seeing the big picture of the big goal(s) from way up above. It is my own opinion that exploring our world from this angle could be quite useful. It is also my opinion that for someone like me to do anything about any of it (if anything can be done) would need to start from the ground up because I am a bottom dweller from the perspective of the world's elite. I am a nobody who, if not for the words I write on this forum, am most likely invisible to the elite.


Hi Sam, nice to see you're still operating within normal parameters! I don't normally chime in on what I don't know anything about, but these words you have here are making me happy and sad at the same time! The last thing you are is insignificant, and you are most definitely not invisible. That is just my opinion of course :)

Any way, I'm interested to read along more of this thread now, thank you for posting

[petra]

Just an observation -

Interesting that this thread has sat all day without anyone offering any solutions. Opinions as to why things are as they are... but no one has anything to suggest in the way of any solution(s). I guess exploring solutions isn't sexy enough. Sad that.

My solution is like secret santa. All the countries put their names in a hat, and whoever they choose, they need to give a present. a BIG present... :)

Sorry... I'm not supposed to be joking :P I'm just cynical

[petra]

My solution on immigration is simple: don't promote "oil and water" cultures to mix, we have so many historical and current examples of how this fails.... why continue?


Because people just can't mind their own business I guess? I like this solution. Not to promote racism, but I side with the racists when they say "we will not mix"... that's their right after all

[Chester]

The four most important females in my life right now...

35246

Cristina, with the sunglasses on her head - to me she's the Queen of Colombia. From the heart of Medellin. The more she reveals her story, the more I understand what true real courage, perseverance and unselfishness can be.

Hollie, to the right with the clear glasses... tells me I am the only father she's ever really had. She is my son, Anthony's, wife. Her Mom is from Viet Nam. Her mother's mother too. Her grandfather, a GI from the US back in the day... her father's parents both Vietnamese as well. She never knew her dad.

Alejandra on the left, Cristina's only child... whose father, when he was told Cristina was pregnant with his child did what too many men seem to do... ran off after having been with Cristina for the prior five years.

Kim, with the bow around her head... my only (so far) grand child. She owns my heart.

I just thought it was a good time to share about these amazing women from my wonderful family. I am just feeling very grateful tonight... apologies.

[turiya]

[Forum Member Hat: ON]

Now, if only it were that easy to remove hatred that lay embedded within more than just a few human minds...


Trump Surrounded - Michael Del Rosso, 1605
(Published on May 4, 2017)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXiJI1QF9os

THIS VIDEO IS ABOUT:

Michael Del Rosso is one of the leading national security scholars in the United States. He us a Senior Fellow for Homeland and National Security at the Center for Security Policy, and a Research Fellow in National Security Policy at the Claremont Institute.

As you’ll see, Del Rosso speaks with great precision, spewing out fact after fact. Therefore, he asked me to make 4 corrections in this interview, which I will note as text as it proceeds.


________________________________

'Hijrah', or jihad by emigration (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emigration)

See The Hijrah Into Europe (http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/260019/hijrah-europe-robert-spencer) by Robert Spencer.


[Forum Member Hat: OFF]

[araucaria]

<snip>
Since the species in question started out with a reptilian brain, it has had two brain upgrades, not to mention countless other types of upgrade. I reckon another is in the pipeline.
<snip>


I don't think we'll get a third one until we've (collectively) better adapted our current version to handling the emotion sub-routine.

The Vulcans effectively incised their's by refusing to engage it, hence it atrophied away. Humans on the other hand have a wild horse that refuses to be tamed, breaking down the fences and running free at the most inappropriate times.
Thank you Ewan for this rather telepathic post. Yesterday I was at my daughter’s. Her neighbour’s horses had broken into her field again, leaving her lame filly in such a state that two hours later she was still crazily trotting up and down along the fence in another field and unable to stop even after sedation. The other horses and poneys were also in a funny mood, so instead of the usual peaceful scene, it was pandemonium. And meanwhile the dog was wearing an electric collar to train it to stop making matters worse by snapping at their heels.

You simply cannot put horses together just any old how in a field; it won’t work, especially when stallions are involved. But when you have ‘aliens’ breaching ‘border controls’ and ‘invading others’ territory’, it causes havoc. Any resemblance to human behaviour is worth thinking about. In similar circumstances, the reptilian brain kicks in perhaps too easily to override our less instinctive reactions. What is seen as racism is simply the fact that while some people are able to cope with this increasing bombardment against our traditional comfort zone, others are slower to do so. There is no nastiness on either side, the nastiness comes from the differential, with no right or wrong; the differential may be just too great, which would mean that it is the progressives who need to back off a little. A horse lover may find that a frightened animal is stupidly over the top in its reactions (highstrung), nevertheless they try to calm it down. This is not how we treat our fellow humans. Those with greater understanding should be able to react appropriately. Human evolution should not be rushed. Do we rush at the future, and leave almost everyone behind, or do we slow down and advance all together, that is the question.

In terms of brain upgrades, (notice head/brain transplants are in the news right now), it would seem that we are operating version 1.3 with successive patches getting too big for the basic system. I take Helene’s ‘wrong species’ comment to me earlier in this sense; in other words, her idealist is referring to a version 2.0. That would seem to be the fork in the road we are at, although I personally would tend to see the choice as one between analog and digital. See these posts:
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?91117-Elon-Musk-Nails-it-We-are-living-in-a-computer-simulation&p=1073824&viewfull=1#post1073824
http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?81805-The-Blog-of-The-Ruiner-Inside-the-Illuminati-Mind&p=995849&viewfull=1#post995849

[turiya]

[Forum Member Hat: ON]


A horse lover may find that a frightened animal is stupidly over the top in its reactions (highstrung), nevertheless they try to calm it down. This is not how we treat our fellow humans.

I would disagree. Humans do attempt & are attempted to be calmed down.

Often times, an unruly emotional child within a classroom, is sent to the psychiatrist's office, then prescribed such nice psychotropic drugs like Ritalin, Prozac, or any other of the countless number of anti-depressant pharmaceuticals. This, only because the child needs to vent the restrained expression of emotions, and is not provided a proper venue to be allowed to do so. SSRI Drugs are used as an attempt to have the child align with the rest of his classmates to keep the Main Stream Education system operating smooothly.

Unfortunately, this doesn't get to the root cause of the problem, as these pharmaceuticals are shown to have been linked to many school shootings, and suicides at that early age. Young minds tend to melt down over time, after prolonged usuage. Older, more mature minds tend to have their grip on reality somewhat loosened. (See SSRI Stories.ORG (https://ssristories.org/).)

The problem is not taken care of, but merely covered cover with a baidaid cure. Such people on these drugs are never allowed to come to grips with their own emotional difficulties. A venue to allow proper venting & release of pent-up energy is the only way such an individual will retain their proper mental health, which is also tied to one's physical well-being.

[Forum Member Hat: OFF]

[araucaria]

[Forum Member Hat: OFF]
I have no idea what the above little game is supposed to mean, but you are both missing and making my point, namely that we deal better with certain types of behaviour coming from an animal than coming from a fellow human. We make huge allowances for their reacting differently to ourselves because they are so very different, but the more others look like us, the less tolerant we become. That is all I am saying.

[turiya]

[Forum Member Hat: ON]

Don't pay any attention to the man behind the curtain...

The more animals are dominated by human beings the more they take on human-like diseases, and the more schizophrenic they have & will become. As a dog kept on too short a leash, it will become aggressively hostile. Its all about energy. Energy needs to move, that is why the name 'e-motion'. If emotions are not allowed to be expressed properly (repressed), then one will soon become overwhelmed with pent-up emotional energy that needs releasing like a pressure valve that is used on a pressure cooker.

[Forum Member Hat: OFF]

[Chester]

It is really tough when you desire (and maintain) good relations with so many excellent members here and then see one or two get a little emotional where it appears that misunderstanding and/or misinterpreting some posts gets a bit tricky.

Hey Ewan... reading your posts enticed me to respond -

I agree with your point which I feel is properly described as "over-emotionalism" and perhaps even a suggestion that maybe humanity might get past these matters if we eliminate emotion altogether from the stream of humanity as we further evolve. Yet you used the Vulcan example and so this prompted me to have two thought streams to develop.

First, I recall Spock's mother, Amanda Grayson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Star_Trek_characters_(G%E2%80%93M)#Amanda_Grayson), was human. I had always wondered why Spock's father, Sarek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarek), had married her... and the conclusion in the Treckian world is that it was logical for him to do so because he was the Vulcan Ambassador to Earth.

Checking this link (https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/54332/why-did-amanda-grayson-marry-sarek) hints that emotion was not completely eliminated from the Vulcan lifestream.

Yet then... After Amanda's death Sarek married another human named Perrin.

I found this comment which, if true, suggests Sarek did indeed possess some emotion -


Perrin was a xeno-linguist, who had met Vulcan Ambassador Sarek at a diplomatic circa 2326. She had asked for and was granted an interview with the ambassador, and the two met regularly during the following year. Sarek surprised her by opening up about his loneliness following the death of his wife, Amanda Grayson, and eventually asked her to share his life.found here (https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/54354/why-did-sarek-marry-another-human-after-spocks-mother-died).

And note loneliness is indeed an emotion - loneliness... see here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loneliness)

Two - the concern that the total loss of emotion results in a completely sociopathic society. I have observed, with concern, some of my friends who identify as serious Buddhists and/or those who have achieved quite a state of non-dualism also seem to have lost compassion and empathy to a degree that concerned me. Just an observation and trust me, I have had dozens of discussions on the matter with these friends as well as observed discussions on this forum and others regarding the matter... so I am hoping not to invite another here in this thread.


Three... do we risk losing our real creative abilities if we eliminate emotion from the human lifestream? I ask this because it is generally believed that our creative ability - and I do not mean the 3D creations that we create with our 3D bodies, like a chair or a piece of art or something we write on a piece of paper or computer screen... though with emotion... what we produce in this way may actually assist in accomplishing the very thing I am actually referring to next which is why sigils, etc. are created - and what I am actually referring to is what we "manifest" through what some might call "magical (or magickal) means... which I simply refer to as functions I, the individuated being, possess which I have come to know through my studies of "the science of being."

And here's an additional "rub." So humans sometimes magickally create such that what they then create is misinterpretted by either the creator(s) and/or others? And that this then leads to things that sometimes eventually evolve into religions? Ugggghhhh, I did not mean to go so far (yet).

[Flash]

I am so happy for you Sam to see you all reunited - and your little one is a true llttle darling, you must be soooooo happy. And I am happy that Cristina and her daughter finally with you full time, throught real immigration - no fence jumping, although I do understand the poors ones who do jump the fence.

Say hi to Cristina from me and my heart if full of joy for her and her daughter.

What I do not understand, is Nazi/fanatic thinking/behaving and separation, Jihad/fanatic thinking/behaving and separation, Warlike/fanatic thinking and separation, and they all seem to be promoted by the same spirit, and the same bunch of people worldwide.

You are the prime example Sam of someone who was pretty bad and went inside to turn around and did it not only for himself, but for all those around him, giving endlessly love and support. I honor and thank you for this.


The four most important females in my life right now...

35246

Cristina, with the sunglasses on her head - to me she's the Queen of Colombia. From the heart of Medellin. The more she reveals her story, the more I understand true real courage, perseverance and unselfishness can be.

Hollie, to the right with the clear glasses, with the clear glasses... tells me I am the only father she's ever really had. She is my son, Anthony's, wife. Her Mom is from Viet Nam. Her mother's mother too. Her grandfather, a GI from the US back in the day... her father's parents both Vietnamese as well. She never knew her dad.

Alejandra on the left, Cristina's only child... whose father, when he was told Cristina was pregnant with his child did what too many men seem to do... ran off after five years with Cristina.

Kim, with the bow around her head... my only (so far) grand child. She owns my heart.

I just thought it was a good time to share about these amazing women from my wonderful family. I am just feeling very grateful tonight... apologies.

[abmqa]

It is really tough when you desire (and maintain) good relations with so many excellent members here and then see one or two get a little emotional where it appears that misunderstanding and/or misinterpreting some posts gets a bit tricky.


Hey Ewan... reading your posts enticed me to respond -

Me too! Sam your post also enticed me to respond. I thank both of you for your
thought provoking posts.:thumbsup:




<snip>
Since the species in question started out with a reptilian brain, it has had two brain upgrades, not to mention countless other types of upgrade. I reckon another is in the pipeline.
<snip>


I don't think we'll get a third one until we've (collectively) better adapted our current version to handling the emotion sub-routine.

Humans on the other hand have a wild horse that refuses to be tamed, breaking down the fences and running free at the most inappropriate times.

I have reflected on some of my posts and recognize that I have erred in this manner.

While replying to posts here, I have at times let my emotions overpower my logic.

For that I apologize to any member here who I may have offended or made to feel uncomfortable in anyway or thought my replies discourteous.

After reflecting on Ewan's and Sam's posts I've realized that harsh tones and inciting language of any sort only instigates the same.

I intend in future posts to be more wary of my emotional state of mind and make a better effort at maintaining an encouraging tone.

If there is any meme out there worth repeating Mahatma Ghandi said it best "Be the change that you wish to see in the world."

For me, I wish to see Peace For All In The World. Even those that may wish me harm.

[TargeT]

we deal better with certain types of behaviour coming from an animal than coming from a fellow human. We make huge allowances for their reacting differently to ourselves because they are so very different, but the more others look like us, the less tolerant we become. That is all I am saying.

I think this is because animals are almost always authentic & rarely deceptive.

The deceptive animals, we tend to fear and eradicate (wolves for example).

Humans are often deceptive,, thus we give far less leeway.

[Helene West]

While we are subjected to 24/7 Trump-a-rama-drama as usual real news goes on quietly away from the talking heads. Behind the stage it's as if trump was never elected. Below is an article on a proposed bill by two Republicans to allow states to bring in up to 500,000 per annum (at least for the 1st year) foreign workers plus automatic amnesty!! I myself never go to Breitbart's site as I feel it yells at me but I have respect for G. Edward Griffin, the man who alerted the world to the history of the Federal Reserve via his book, "The Creature from Jekyll Island". I received the article forwarded from his site.

Though the bill will bring in professional foreigners to replace americans the vast numbers will be very low wage earners geared towards making everyone eventually low wage earners. On top of the usual tripe that there are no americans that will work for low wages (they don't know my folks!) the latest twist is that americans are too busy being doped out on opioids. I've read on other financial sites that as much as americans love their plastic, credit card applications are down and americans are having hard time paying their car loans. In order to pay these immigrants people need to buy the goods and services of these businesses and won't be doing so if they don't have disposable income. Though many of these immigrants will get crap jobs i believe many of them will be unemployed soon upon entering the country. As I've said previously, it's not Immigration, it's Colonization...
ARTICLE:

Two GOP legislators are introducing legislation to let states annually import 500,000 foreign blue-collar workers and white-collar professionals to replace Americans who have fallen out of the workforce and into drug addiction.
The American replacement bill is needed because companies can’t hire the employees they want amid the massive decline in the number of Americans who are seeking work, Wisconsin Sen. Ron Johnson told an event hosted Wednesday by the CATO Institute.
“Why can’t Wisconsin manufacturers, why can’t small businesses, find enough people to work?” Johnson asked during a speech in a Senate hearing room with supporters of the replacement bill. He continued:
You got to ask those hard questions… it is not going to be a government program that is going to solve that [worker decline], but smart government policy, things like the bill we’re going to be introducing with the help of CATO today … is a really good direction to move. Give a it a shot. Let’s see how much better the states do. My guess is that they will do a whole lot better than a one-size-fits-all federal [foreign worker] program.
The bill would allow states to each get 5,000 visas for additional foreign workers per year, plus a population-based share of another 245,000 visas, plus a share of any visas not used by other states. The inflow of foreign workers would start at 495,000 in the first year, not counting the additional family members of each imported worker.
The bill would also create an amnesty, because the visas could be given to 11 million plus illegals living in the United States, including those who returned to the United States after being deported.
The Senator said he has 50 co-sponsors, but acknowledged the likely unpopularity of his American replacement bill, which is formally titled the “State Sponsored Visa Pilot Program of 2017.”
The acknowledgment came at the end of his statement when he thanked the CATO group and his House counterpart, Colorado GOP Rep. Ken Buck, for backing the replacement bill. “Let’s face it, to have the courage… we’re probably a lightening rod on this bill,” Johnsson said in his videotaped speech.
Buck said he will not formally introduce the bill yet. “I’m not ready to sponsor it in the House yet… it is important to take the bill out of the oven when it is baked.”
In November 2016, Donald Trump won the presidency partly because many blue-collar Americans — including many in Wisconsin — oppose the economic impact of cheap-labor immigration. In January, Trump emphasized that his administration’s mantra is “Buy American, Hire American.” Since then, he has sharply reduced illegal immigration and has proposed popular plans to reform legal immigration and the contract-worker programs.
In his Wednesday statement, Johnson spoke at length about the “new plague [of opioid addiction] in our country,” and quoted from an article describing the huge extent of worker drop out amid the post-2008 combination punch of recession and mass-immigration. According to the article by demographer Nichols Eberstadt:
The collapse in work rates for U.S. adults between 2008 and 2010 was roughly twice the amplitude of what had previously been the country’s worst postwar recession, back in the early 1980s. In that previous steep recession, it took America five years to re-attain the adult work rates recorded at the start of 1980. This time, the U.S. job market has as yet, in early 2017, scarcely begun to claw its way back up to the work rates of 2007—much less back to the work rates from early 2000 … U.S. adult work rates never recovered entirely from the recession of 2001—much less the crash of ’08.
The subsequent “social pathologies … I would argue are being driven by government policy,” Johnson told the hearing room, and he cited Medicaid’s distribution of free opioids throughout much of the country.
But “it is not going to be a government program that is going to solve” that worker drop-out problem, Johnson continued. So the new visa bill, he said, is targeted to “making sure that American businesses have the labor they need.”
The new bill is required because “we need a strong and vibrant workforce,” said Buck, as he declined to discuss any effort to fix the worker-dropout problem:
I think we’ve got to deal with able-bodied individuals in this country who are not working … we still need to address the feeling among Americans that are workers in the country… who are not working and need to be working.
Both Buck and Johnson are former business executives.
The Buck-Johnson replacement bill would amplify the federal government’s employee importation policies.
Under current law, the federal government annually imports roughly 1 million legal immigrants plus 1 million contract workers, such as H-1B therapists and professors. The immigrants and contract workers do grow the economy — but they also compete for jobs against each year’s cohort of 4 million American high school and college graduates.
The flow of cheap immigrant labor has many effects. It does expand the consumer economy as it also shifts $500 billion from employees to employers and Wall Street, and it amps up state and local government spending by $60 billion a year. It also reduces the incentive for employers to recruit disengaged Americans or to build new facilities in high-unemployment areas, reduces businesses’ demands on schools to rebuild vocational training departments, and reduces business investment in labor-saving technology.
Nationwide, roughly 10 percent of American “prime age” men, or 7 million men aged 25 to 54, have stayed out of the nation’s workforce of 160 million amid the glut of cheap immigrant labor and the resulting low wage rates. Many working-age Americans are not trying to get jobs, and are not participating in the nation’s labor force, largely because of low wage rates, according to an August statement by Jason Furman, the chief economic advisor to former President Barack Obama.
That huge population of non-working rural Americans is a major part of the opioid epidemic. In 2014, roughly 47,000 in the U.S. died from drug overdoses, especially from heroin and other opiates. Heroin overdose deaths more than tripled between 2010 and 2015.
Johnson said the bill would allow the additional incoming workers — and their families — to get the hugely valuable prize of citizenship after several years of work. But that offer of citizenship creates a compelling incentive for companies to discriminate against Americans by hiring the foreigners eager to work long hours at low pay for the future reward of citizenship.
The prize of citizenship already acts as a government-provided deferred bonus for many foreign contract workers, such as H-1B white-collar professionals, who compliantly work long hours at low pay for several years in the hope of getting citizenship. In contrast, Americans can only get paid from companies’ pre-profit accounts, so companies have an incentive to hire foreign workers by offering them the citizenship bonus that is paid by government and taxpayers.
The Johnson-Buck replacement legislation is backed by the self-described libertarian CATO Institute, even though the legislation would give state legislatures huge power over the life or death of many companies. For example, the legislation would give the state government the power to provide at least 5,000 low-wage workers each year to company executives who cooperate with state political leaders. It would also give the state politicians the power to ruin executives by suddenly withdrawing the imported workers from companies who disagree with the preferences of state politicians.
Follow Neil Munro on Twitter @NeilMunroDC or email the author at NMunro@Breitbart.com

[Flash]

Interesting Helene,

Do you think I could get a job in the US with this Bill? (kidding)
t
I did not know the opioid problem was so prevalent in the US and worst, that 10 % of male workforce is not working. This is real bad.

[turiya]

As I've said previously, it's not Immigration, it's Colonization...
Breitbart ARTICLE: (http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/05/04/gop-propose-american-workers-replacement-bill-amnesty-immigration/)

Two GOP legislators are introducing legislation to let states annually import 500,000 foreign blue-collar workers and white-collar professionals to replace Americans who have fallen out of the workforce and into drug addiction.

In my opinion, these two GOP legislators are, like Paul Ryan, i.e. globalists & anti-Trump. Open borders, flood the labor force with foreign immigrants. Blaming the lack of workers in the labor force is due to drug addiction.

The real issue is that the Deep State / Central Banking System is the cause for the illegal drugs to flow into this country. NAFTA has not helped the manufacturing base within this country.

These guys are opposed to Trump's credo: "Buy American & Hire American."
Best to keep in mind, its the Democrats on the left & the Republicans on the right that make up today's "Status Quo Establishment", which is oriented towards Globalism, Open Borders, flooding the country with Undocumented Workers, and setting up Sanctuary City-States where they can seek protection from being deported.

This country is in a mess because of the liberal movement away from the Rule of Law.
The Central Banking System has to be taken down & broken into bits, as its been a haven for the laundering of drug money for far too long. Once that is done, then the Deep State will dissolve away on it own accord, and with it the flow of heroin, cocaine & other drugs will come to a halt. Bringing back the manufacturing base to this country will not be an instant coffee fix. Its taken a long while to tear it down, it will be a long time to build it back up. Flooding this country with cheap labor is not the way to go. To think that this is the way to go is being delusional.

Another reference: website (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:krVQj3NlV7IJ:doingadvancework.blogspot.com/+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

Enough said.

[Carmody]

CATO=KOCH brothers = Nietzsche/Ayn Rand= Oligarchical fascism.... being paraded around wearing a John Galt mask.


The most out of touch pair of nutbar brothers you can imagine.

[Helene West]

Turiya
Yes they are globalists in sheep's clothing. But one of my points is that they know many of these immigrants are NOT getting jobs, cheap or otherwise, but will be on welfare and food stamps but they will Vote and support any socialist/progressive sounding crap. The point is to dilute the american population that wants a constitution based republic. Immigration implies assimilation, Colonization is take over.
I have mixed thoughts at this point about your belief in trump collapsing the economy to get rid of the deep state. More shall be revealed...

Carmody
Agreed about Koch Bros and though many feel that way about them they will have an elevated opinion of the Cato inst.

[Dennis Leahy]

I don't like resurrecting this thread, but this is where these remarks should go.

Though the vast majority of what I said on this thread is part of my core being, and so I certainly do not apologize for the well of compassion from which these words of mine sprung, there are several things I do need to apologize for.

First, for, (in essence), not "taking off my mod hat" to make remarks in a way that are not part of Avalon's protocol for moderators. Without the "mod hat off" "disclaimer", when a moderator makes public remarks about other members and their posts, those remarks should follow moderation guidelines - and some of mine did not.

Secondly, I need to apologize to turiya for naming him among those who made remarks that I consider racist and/or bigoted. I believe that I dragged some of my vehement anti-Empire, anti-duopoly (which is anti-trump... and anti-clinton, and anti-sanders, etc...) political baggage into this thread, mentally amplified it, and made sweeping assumptions. I apologize, turiya.

Finally, to marique3652 and Helene West: there are statements and sentiments expressed in this thread that I believe are racist and/or bigoted, that I do believe needed to have the "light shone upon them", but when light is shown on an issue, it shouldn't be a laser beam that cauterizes people. I was emotionally triggered and became ineffective as well as harsh. Aimed at racism and bigotry, harshness (targeted to the issue) might be justified, but not targeted to people in a forum (where issues are discussed, not just published.) I didn't dig deeper into the fear-related genesis of bigotry. You certainly aren't going to explore my viewpoint once I have painted a red letter on you, so my approach was stupid and ineffective to boot. I hope you'll both keep growing on the issue, in spite of accusatory tone of some of my words. For the poor public moderation that you received, marique3652 and Helene West, and for naming and shaming you both as individuals, rather than dealing with the issue, I do apologize.


Expanding rings: When we are infants, our entire focus, our entire world, can be diagrammed as an individual surrounded by a small circle, a ring. As individuals grow, the ring expands, first including parents, expanding again to include siblings and close family, expanding again to include extended family and friends. For some people, that's it. For others, the ring continues to expand: to neighborhood and then community, then maybe to a cultural or religious group, then outward to some form of "bordered" pseudo-entity such as a state or a nation. For some, the expansion continues on to include all of humanity, and to all life forms on the planet - and ultimately, to "oneness." I see this ever-expanding ring of inclusiveness, of expanding our awareness and expanding our compassion, as critical for enlightenment and spiritual growth. I invite all of my brothers and sisters on this planet to keep expanding your ring as wide as you can. That should have been my take-away message.
Bill has been very kind and kept me on as a mod "past my expiration date." I am honored to have helped out Bill and Avalon in even a small way. I consider Bill a friend as well as a champion of humanity, and Project Avalon to be the premiere source for "alternate" (a euphemism for "truth", if we can discern it) information. Once some things changed for me that kept me from being able to be active online for the long hours necessary to read enough Avalon posts to really "have the pulse" of the forum, I should have stepped down as a moderator. I didn't, and that was a mistake. In my reduced capacity, I tried to help out a bit in the "back room", processing applications and such, which was fine, but again, without enough context in the forum threads, I was in no position to do public moderating, and shouldn't have. Effective immediately, (or as quickly as the admins make the change), I'm stepping down as an Avalon moderator. I am also taking a much needed sabbatical - not just from Avalon, but from much of my online activities.

-Dennis Leahy

[turiya]

I have mixed thoughts at this point about your belief in trump collapsing the economy to get rid of the deep state. More shall be revealed...

[@26:15]
Greg Hunter: I mean, this thing cannot go on forever.... I mean, really... Do we run into the risk of some sort of inflection point? And, I don't want you to make a prediction that this is ball is going to blow up... or whatever. But don't we run into the risk that this could come undone?

Catherine Austin Fitts: What we're going to talk about now is very important. So, I want to say this carefully.

I voted for Kasich in the Tennessee Primary, I didn't vote for Trump. Now, when it came down to the election I voted for Trump. And the reason I voted for Kasich is because Kasich is very experienced about the budget. He knows the budget in detail and he understands the politics of what it takes to turn the budget in a way that will make it easy for the establishment to work with him. Okay....

Now Trump doesn't have that knowledge, he doesn't have that experience, and if you look at his style, its a style that many people that you have to work with on the budget are uncomfortable with. Okay...

So asking Trump to do it, puts him in a dangerous position.

Now, the reason I voted for Trump - I became completely convinced, Greg, that Washington wasn't listening, and that we were at an inflection point & it would be better to destroy the whole system, than to let it keep going as it was.

So, we were better off with the U.S. government completely imploding than continuing along, you know... with another four years of disappointments.

So, not only would I vote for Trump again, I would vote for him... he's done much better than expected in the first month. Somebody with no government experience to do as well as he's done is quite extraordinary...

Greg Hunter: Wow! Coming from you, that's a big deal.


Catherine Austin Fitts: They're
Trying to Centralize Control
(Published on May 9, 2017)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pc_Ofg3gGHE

[abmqa]

I don't like resurrecting this thread, but this is where these remarks should go.

Though the vast majority of what I said on this thread is part of my core being, and so I certainly do not apologize for the well of compassion from which these words of mine sprung, there are several things I do need to apologize for.

First, for, (in essence), not "taking off my mod hat" to make remarks in a way that are not part of Avalon's protocol for moderators. Without the "mod hat off" "disclaimer", when a moderator makes public remarks about other members and their posts, those remarks should follow moderation guidelines - and some of mine did not.

Secondly, I need to apologize to turiya for naming him among those who made remarks that I consider racist and/or bigoted. I believe that I dragged some of my vehement anti-Empire, anti-duopoly (which is anti-trump... and anti-clinton, and anti-sanders, etc...) political baggage into this thread, mentally amplified it, and made sweeping assumptions. I apologize, turiya.

Finally, to marique3652 and Helene West: there are statements and sentiments expressed in this thread that I believe are racist and/or bigoted, that I do believe needed to have the "light shone upon them", but when light is shown on an issue, it shouldn't be a laser beam that cauterizes people. I was emotionally triggered and became ineffective as well as harsh. Aimed at racism and bigotry, harshness (targeted to the issue) might be justified, but not targeted to people in a forum (where issues are discussed, not just published.) I didn't dig deeper into the fear-related genesis of bigotry. You certainly aren't going to explore my viewpoint once I have painted a red letter on you, so my approach was stupid and ineffective to boot. I hope you'll both keep growing on the issue, in spite of accusatory tone of some of my words. For the poor public moderation that you received, marique3652 and Helene West, and for naming and shaming you both as individuals, rather than dealing with the issue, I do apologize.


Expanding rings: When we are infants, our entire focus, our entire world, can be diagrammed as an individual surrounded by a small circle, a ring. As individuals grow, the ring expands, first including parents, expanding again to include siblings and close family, expanding again to include extended family and friends. For some people, that's it. For others, the ring continues to expand: to neighborhood and then community, then maybe to a cultural or religious group, then outward to some form of "bordered" pseudo-entity such as a state or a nation. For some, the expansion continues on to include all of humanity, and to all life forms on the planet - and ultimately, to "oneness." I see this ever-expanding ring of inclusiveness, of expanding our awareness and expanding our compassion, as critical for enlightenment and spiritual growth. I invite all of my brothers and sisters on this planet to keep expanding your ring as wide as you can. That should have been my take-away message.
Bill has been very kind and kept me on as a mod "past my expiration date." I am honored to have helped out Bill and Avalon in even a small way. I consider Bill a friend as well as a champion of humanity, and Project Avalon to be the premiere source for "alternate" (a euphemism for "truth", if we can discern it) information. Once some things changed for me that kept me from being able to be active online for the long hours necessary to read enough Avalon posts to really "have the pulse" of the forum, I should have stepped down as a moderator. I didn't, and that was a mistake. In my reduced capacity, I tried to help out a bit in the "back room", processing applications and such, which was fine, but again, without enough context in the forum threads, I was in no position to do public moderating, and shouldn't have. Effective immediately, (or as quickly as the admins make the change), I'm stepping down as an Avalon moderator. I am also taking a much needed sabbatical - not just from Avalon, but from much of my online activities.

-Dennis Leahy

Dennis - I am sincerely sorry to see you go. As for your actions in moderating this thread, I feel that you did an admirable job in most if not all of your replies. This reply below, I took as intending to cause all of us to think about how we should consider those that are different from us regardless of race. I thought that reply was Brilliant!! as it was non-attributable to any individual and only required one to examine their own answers for judgement.

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?97318-Trump-Illegal-immigration-Sam-s-view&p=1149600&viewfull=1#post1149600

Issues of racism and bigotry are unfortunately in today's climate hot button topics. I feel the fact that you did not stand by silently and spoke out in an extremely sensitive and articulate manner reflects positively on you and your moral character.

It's when we are silent in the face of reprehensible behavior that we too become complicit in allowing it to continue unchallenged. I for one will always speak out against such issues. As I often ask myself; If not me, then who?

I would also like to note that although you did not receive a cogent or any replies to your quiz from those who it was intended. One can only hope that your quiz did cause some to enter in to a period of self-reflection.

Though I must confess that I did not pass that test with a 100% score because I answered the question below with this answer, however I think I aced the rest of it. :o

Here's a quick self-test:

All women are _Crazy?_. <--- fill-in the correct word.

Just kidding! :p


Anyway, I will miss you and I feel all of PA will miss you also.

[Bill Ryan]

I'm stepping down as an Avalon moderator. I am also taking a much needed sabbatical - not just from Avalon, but from much of my online activities.

-Dennis Leahy

I will miss you and I feel all of PA will miss you also.

Amen to that. :heart:

Behind the scenes, over the last 12 days, the moderators have had an extensive, in-depth and (in my opinion) extremely interesting conversation about all this. Some of that, I believe, may be helpful if it were shared more openly.

None of this is easy, or given to glib summaries — which I think is the only thing most reading this can agree.

I think Dennis has made the right decision for himself just now. He has been way more than honest with himself, us, and now the forum members, one or two named individuals in particular. And multiple personal factors have played their part, as they often do.

Dennis has been at the very foundation of the forum, and its management, for almost as long as I can remember. We owe him a huge debt of thanks for all the heart and soul he's poured into the community here.

But like Arnie, he'll be back. :star:

[RunningDeer]

Effective immediately, (or as quickly as the admins make the change), I'm stepping down as an Avalon moderator. I am also taking a much needed sabbatical - not just from Avalon, but from much of my online activities.
-Dennis Leahy
This maybe sound a bit woo-woo for you but...I'd describe the energy over the last many months to be strange (not only on-line). Fortunately, I'm in a position to pace where needed.

You will be missed, Dennis, and I look forward to your return. http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/Recovered/smileys-hugs-765537_zpso1eaenyy.gif

Much love,
Paula ♡

UPDATE: Sierra, you're blue. Thank you for your time and energy. {insert squishy hug}

[Mike]

hey Dennis, your posts give me hope. truly. not alot of things that give me hope out there at the moment.

also, i feel an xtra confidence when youre around...confidence because i know we're on the same team, fighting this same battle. its comforting knowing youre in the fox hole with us. i selfishly hope youre not gone too long.

[ThePythonicCow]

You will be missed, Dennis, and I look forward to your return. http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/Recovered/smileys-hugs-765537_zpso1eaenyy.gif

Much love,
Paula ♡

UPDATE: Sierra, you're blue. Thank you for your time and energy. {insert squishy hug}

Sierra and Dennis - two of the finest - it's been my pleasure and honor to serve with them.

I wish them both the best in their renewed focus elsewhere.

Until we meet again ...

http://affirmativeactionalliance.com/wp-content/uploads/kissingcows.gif

[RunningDeer]

Sierra and Dennis - two of the finest - it's been my pleasure and honor to serve with them.

I wish them both the best in their renewed focus elsewhere.

Until we meet again ...

http://affirmativeactionalliance.com/wp-content/uploads/kissingcows.gif

Oh, that's precious, Paul. Yes, yes, and yes...yes to all of the above. http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/Recovered/cow2_zps9b5ywyal.GIF.....http://avalonlibrary.net/paula/Recovered/cow_zpsdjmouaos.GIF

[Helene West]

I hit the thanks button on Mr. Leahy's message only because he chose to do the right thing and take leave. His apology doesn't mean much to me as once you put a slanderous label on someone that's it, damage done.

I considered reapplying to the forum and obtain a different user name because of his targeting, which I know I wouldn't have been the first or last to do so, but his was such a common reaction to dealing with perceptions that conflict with his own and though I was bothered by his targeting but was neither 'shamed' as he flatters himself to have caused, nor bothered to that great extent, I decided to not get another user name.

Unfortunately one cannot put a mod on Ignore. As I'm as passionate in my views as he is in his, his mind-set was only going to steer him in the next inevitability - censorship. There are cultural trends taking place in our society that are not palatable to say the least and I write my interpretations without vulgarities and without naming other board members. If I were to be censored it would be a reflection of qualities that run counter to the creation of the forum, not a reflection of wrongdoing on my part. And life goes on....

[Flash]

It's when we are silent in the face of reprehensible behavior that we too become complicit in allowing it to continue unchallenged. I for one will always speak out against such issues. As I often ask myself; If not me, then who?

that I did not pass that test with a 100% score because I answered the question below with this answer, however I think I aced the rest of it. :o

Here's a quick self-test:

All women are _Crazy?_. <--- fill-in the correct word. Answer: yes woman are crazy, they are crazy about men - that is why the world is going so bad lolllllllllllll

Just kidding! :p



Anyway, I will miss you and I feel all of PA will miss you also.[COLOR="red"]same here, i was glad you were back and will happy again if you get back again

Now, to answer to the post comment above, - it is when silent in the face of reprehensible behavior -

this is exactly where the hit comes down: we cannot speak about it even when in the mist of reprehensible behavior, but this time, it is the majority who cannot speak out, not the minority.

In Canada we have HATE LAWS that stipulate that you cannot speak against a group or literally be racist, the Jewish community has used it abundantly to shut up people (David Ike for example) who speak for Palestine or against Israel or against the Jewish community in Canada.

And now the Muslims are succeeding in taking the law to force people not to speak against Islam.

We are not talking against a people or even a country here, we are talking against a religion, involving multiple countries and a vast multicultural basis.

The only difference between Islam and Judea is that Jews are a quite a close knit society and do not want anybody else to get into their nest (keep the power within for a chosen few) while Islam targets assimilation of the whole planet under their umbrella. (expand to take power over many and to dictate through Sharia).

This precisely IS INVATION from a minority group, this is not inclusion nor assimilation, on the contrary.

And the majority is too stupid not to see it, we let our governments be lenient or even helping.

Let me tell you, in my city, I do not feel like at home in many many neighborhoods anymore. I bet anything that many citizen of Cuenca in Ecuador or other cities in the world invaded by occidental feel the same.

Sometimes I am in South America, sometimes in North Africa, sometimes in Central Africa, depending on the neighborhoods I am walking through and almost always with complete disdain for the French Canadian. This from 1st generation immigrants, transmitted to their kids. Most immigrants are nice, but they are not being integrated, less assimilated.

The prime example of integration is Sam family. This is not happening in most places in my city.

Before, there was the Italian mafia (imported yeah!), the Hells Angels (mostly French in French Quebec since they assimilate lollllllllllll) and that was it.

Now there is the Italian mafia, the Hells Angels, the Vietnamese mafia, the Chinese mafia, the 13 (Salvador), the Columbian mafia, Oh... and the RUSSIAN mafia (those are tough), and the street gangs , mainly black, who are now adults and turned into real mafia, no arabic mafia!!!!???? (no need, they have the jihad and the oil, together)- how come we do not have the Swedish mafia or the French one from France?? - not to name the Jewish mafia because those are never arrested, all of these non integrated mafias.

Why don't we have ONE ONLY integrated mafia??? Yes silly, but that is exactly what the world government is trying to impose on us, citizens. With one integrated mafia we would know what we are confronting, us the regular small citizen. So, better dilute everything.

Why? Precisely because certain cultures do not match, even within mafia groups, and pitting them one against the other allows for cultural backlash and overall societal mafia take over, same as in the general population.

Mafia wars until we get one world government govern them under the auspice of an umbrella mafia covering all aspects. In between, many mafias and many mixes of societies to destroy all potential opposition.

Same with the general populations and different identities.

All this being said, I do think the planet has to come to a whole planet, without division, but certainly not the way it is being done now, and certainly not under service to self entities as we have now.

[abmqa]

I hit the thanks button on Mr. Leahy's message only because he chose to do the right thing and take leave. His apology doesn't mean much to me as once you put a slanderous label on someone that's it, damage done.

I considered reapplying to the forum and obtain a different user name because of his targeting, which I know I wouldn't have been the first or last to do so, but his was such a common reaction to dealing with perceptions that conflict with his own and though I was bothered by his targeting but was neither 'shamed' as he flatters himself to have caused, nor bothered to that great extent, I decided to not get another user name.

Unfortunately one cannot put a mod on Ignore. As I'm as passionate in my views as he is in his, his mind-set was only going to steer him in the next inevitability - censorship.
There are cultural trends taking place in our society that are not palatable to say the least and I write my interpretations without vulgarities and without naming other board members. If I were to be censored it would be a reflection of qualities that run counter to the creation of the forum, not a reflection of wrongdoing on my part. And life goes on....



Really?? Perhaps you need reminding of this post of yours?

http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?97318-Trump-Illegal-immigration-Sam-s-view&p=1150725&viewfull=1#post1150725

Where you state the following: Now if I believe this whore (sorry but that's how I see her) is some sort of cointelpro agent I'm really going to give my time immersing myself in Intel crap so you can be entertained.

Where you talk about slanderous labels appears to me to be just a tad bit hypocritical. Also, if I may kindly suggest your last comment where you suggest that I posted Intel crap for you to respond to solely for my entertainment, is in my opinion disingenuous from the perspective that you think I'm trolling you?
I posted that information because I had hoped that you would read it and perhaps do some self reflection.

The truth is, I see the issue of bigotry and racism not as a race, religious, or sex issue. It is a Human issue and one that should be addressed. We as humans have many flaws and for multiple reasons. For instance, if one were to live their entire life in a segregated community, it would be expected for that person to hold views that are specifically limited to that community. This I suspect is only natural, but it doesn't make those views globally correct.

As we are living in an age that enables all of us to interact with our brothers and sisters of all cultures, we need to be mindful and show deference. Even if we disagree, we should do so respectfully and with the purpose of presenting an alternate viewpoint.

Take Project Avalon for example. PA is represented by members from many countries and religions globally. When someone makes a broad negative comment about someone's ethnicity or religion, there's a very good chance someone here will be offended.

As we are living in an age where borders and and distance is no longer an impediment to global discourse there will be obstacles to overcome. I believe that these obstacles can and will be vanquished through the striving for a common goal.

That goal IMO, is liberty, justice and peace through understanding.

Helene, although I firmly disagree with your views, I have no personal animosity toward you, as I see you as my sister. I was raised with three sisters and although we fought and argued over trifling things mostly, I never lost my love for them. I feel the same love for you that I feel for all of my brothers and sisters worldwide.

I wish you peace, love and happiness as you travel and navigate your way through life.

[Flash]

I thought that would be a hilarious break on this thread talking of immigrants, arabs, and misconceptions from prejudicial thinking


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjpoU6fVNCQ

[marique3652]

Autumn, I am sorry that you feel I am a troll who has come here to whip up anti-muslim sentient. You are wrong, I am not a troll and you are wrong about my friend and her daughter as well, and I resent that you call me a liar. If you wish you can find this rape murder online with no trouble. I have been a member here for a long time, and I have never spoken harsh words or name called anyone here, have always been respectful. I am sorry that people do not make me feel welcome here lately, I thought this was a site where we could share our thoughts and experiences together. I had no idea that one is only supposed to post politically correct stuff that is all pleasant and nice and love and light and not supposed to say how we feel and not supposed to speak from our own experieces. I have gotten the loud message. Dennis says I do not belong on this site, and you call me a troll and a liar. Maybe this is not the type of site I thought it was. For people who always extoll how loving and accepting you all are, I am encountering a lot of not so nice interactions here. But I respect your right to call me a troll and a liar if it makes you feel better. If that is your truth, run with it. I spoke my experiences and my life and truths and perceptions. If I am a person who is not fit to belong here, maybe Bill will tell me to leave. Until he does I will continue to be a member.

[Bill Ryan]

If I am a person who is not fit to belong here, maybe Bill will tell me to leave. Until he does I will continue to be a member.

Well, I heard my name there, and feel kind of invoked. :)

No-one's telling anyone to leave. I think the general issues discussed here (or, that are open to be discussed) are really important. They affect us all, and our future, and there are agendas at play, and our emotions are often engineered (by others, of course) to run very high.

The issues are often cultural. Not always 'racial'. I'm certain of that.

And the NWO agenda is all about a drip-feed erosion of nation-states, national boundaries, and the Vitamix-blending of all distinct, colorful cultures into some dreadful, gray, consumer-puppeteered, media-hypnotized mediocrity. Look at the EU. It's a case study for us all.

My situation in Ecuador is interesting, because I'm the migrant who should not be here.

I can legally live here (and my residency here is all 100% good), but culturally I'm a square-peg-in-a-round-hole misfit. I don't go to Church, barely speak the language, don't understand what all the local festivals are — and I have little genuine interest in them anyway. I like the local people, I really do, but my language skills aren't conversational enough to engage any other than superficially.

I should really 'go home' — except that (like Syrian refugees) I have no home to go to. I have no family, no roots, no nothing. I am literally a kind of homeless nomad.

I'm not here in Ecuador as an 'economic migrant', but my entire reason to be here is self-interest of various kinds. I'm certainly not here to help Ecuador. That was never in my thoughts. It was all about me. (With most people, it is. Just telling it straight here.)

And I feel the locals' thoughts, sometimes. Not everywhere — but in some places, with a few people I run into. Basically, the locals are gradually, slowly, becoming fearful of the future, and resentful of the invaders which they, personally, never invited. They feel they have no control.

More and more Americans are coming to Ecuador. Simply because it's cheaper, healthier, or (for some) safer. It's an easy option, at Ecuador's expense.

It's all self-interest. And there's very little integration.

In Vilcabamba, it's broken into real violence. A different story, not to be told here, but black magic shamans are picking off the gringos there like snipers. Not a joke.

People are being killed, burglarized, raped. Because a handful of resistance fighter local shamans see them as just more white Conquistadores, with an arrogant, superior sense of entitlement. These local guys, just a few, but with quite a lot of power, want them all dead. They really do. It's quite an untold story.

None of this is 'racism'. None at all. It's all about cultural heritage, sovereignty, territory, respect — or the lack of it. And integration, or the lack of that. The black magic shamans believe they're freedom fighters, reclaiming their stolen land.

I don't support their extreme approach, of course — that's all karmically going to implode on them, and they really hurt people, badly (or worse) — but I actually understand how they feel.

I'm not racist, at all. I was brought up in West Africa as a young child, and since then have traveled extensively in Africa and India. I genuinely love those people. I don't care about anyone's race or skin color. That's like caring about the color of someone's car, or house.

But if I was an Ecuadorian, I would absolutely not want me here.

:)

***

@ Marique, please post the link to your rape/murder story. That might help. If it's easy to find, you should be able to dig it up no problem. Thanks. The best defense against being called a liar is always to show proof of the truth.

[Helene West]

I hit the thanks button on Mr. Leahy's message only because he chose to do the right thing and take leave. His apology doesn't mean much to me as once you put a slanderous label on someone that's it, damage done.

I considered reapplying to the forum and obtain a different user name because of his targeting, which I know I wouldn't have been the first or last to do so, but his was such a common reaction to dealing with perceptions that conflict with his own and though I was bothered by his targeting but was neither 'shamed' as he flatters himself to have caused, nor bothered to that great extent, I decided to not get another user name.

Unfortunately one cannot put a mod on Ignore. As I'm as passionate in my views as he is in his, his mind-set was only going to steer him in the next inevitability - censorship.
There are cultural trends taking place in our society that are not palatable to say the least and I write my interpretations without vulgarities and without naming other board members. If I were to be censored it would be a reflection of qualities that run counter to the creation of the forum, not a reflection of wrongdoing on my part. And life goes on....



Really?? Perhaps you need reminding of this post of yours? .....

I wish you peace, love and happiness as you travel and navigate your way through life.

Above is the first and last sentence of your post. Are you familiar with the term "passive aggressive"?
I'll put your well wishes for me in the same file as mr. L's 'apology'. Ciao

[Whiskey_Mystic]

I am sorry that people do not make me feel welcome here lately, I thought this was a site where we could share our thoughts and experiences together.

Marique, please know that there are those who value your presence and your authentic experience. The Avalon you have described does still exist, it's just been shouted down a bit the last year by those in service to their personal belief systems. We're still here.

You and I may, or may not, have very different views and may support opposing positions. That's irrelevant. If we listen to each other, if we respect that life and circumstance can create different perspectives, if we collaborate to understand each other, then I don't see how that could be a bad thing. I hope that you will continue to share your heart and your personal truth.

May all beings be free from suffering. May all beings be at peace.

[Ewan]

I believe Bill is 100% correct that these issues are cultural and not about race.

We grow up embedded in a culture that in normal circumstance is never acknowledged, it surrounds us and slowly, like a drip-feed, instill in us our cultural identity. When cultures meet through various social exchanges the differences stand out like a strident note in a symphony of humanity. I think that we, as humans, have more in common with each other from east to west and from black to white than any insignificant cultural difference. (Let us not argue about whether a particular cultures practice is insignificant). Yet those social interactions that lead to a negative experience are focussed on nevertheless, and over time they will be subjected to generalisations and catch-all terms. Now it is presented, or perceived of, as race or religious differences. Once a schism appears it can be difficult to repair.

Why the fear? The negative feeling? I believe it can be traced back to that permanent comapnion we each carry with us, the ego. We identify with our culture at a deep level that requires considerable self-reflection to realise that really it means nothing, just as you are not your car, your job or your salary, nor are you your culture.

If I were a Machivelian psychopath, (I suppose they are all Machivelian by their very nature), I can think of no better way to ensure permanent strife and chaos than to force different cultures into close proximity and then constantly report every negative world event emphasising race, religion of culture at every opportunity.

[Tangri]

The purpose of modern immigration is to dilute and disempower the white race in every white or formerly white country.

Just wow.

You might need to ponder what it means to be American.
Here is some help

New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

America is an idea, not a piece of land. It is the ideas of liberty freedom and justice FOR ALL. Sam, if you want solutions, it is standing right in front of you. I see one simple test. Either you believe in those ideals and are welcomed freely into our country, or you leave. And currently, many so called americans should be shown the door as they dont actually share american values. Lady liberty is weeping . . .

I agree up to a point that America should take in the poor, the homeless, the tempest tossed. However are we as a whole supposed to welcome people who hate us, are jealous, and want to destroy this country and take it over, to rape our women, cut off our daughter's clitorises, rape our children, beat our women, stone them and behead them or kill family members if they wish because they worship a murderous, bloodthirsty pedophile who advocated that anyone that does not believe in allah should be killed? As a freedom loving American I welcome immigrants but do not welcome people who wish us harm, and I am sorry if that makes me a bad person. Would you want a male Muslim babysitting for your children, and would you trust them alone with your daughters and wives. If the answer is no then that is because it is unwise to invite someone whom believes in violence and rape into your home. I just call that common sense. Would you put your child in a room with many poisonous snakes and some snakes that are not, would you risk it that they may get bitten by a poisonous snake. Just asking. Now I am sure you think me a bad American, but welcoming concept sometimes has to use some reasoning too. Muslims as a whole do not want to assimilate, they want to take over our country. I for one want a future for my granddaughter where she does not have to live in fear. I for one do not want to see life for women like back into the dark ages where they are just objects for a man's pleasure. I for one do not want to have to stay inside to avoid being raped or mugged or killed. Read the other day that some mayor in Sweden told the women to just get used to staying inside, and not going to public places as they may get raped or killed or both, and that they just should get used to it. I do not want that for America, but if you collectively do, then I guess I am a horrible person, a Muslimophobe. Sorry for the ramble but it makes me feel good to get it out, lol.

Sounds like FOX news. And racist fearmongering.

Here's a quick self-test:

All women are __________. <--- fill-in the correct word.




.




.




.




OK, what was the correct word?

The only possible correct answers are "unique" or "different."

Get it? (All Blacks are ______. All left-handed people are _______. All Muslims are ______. All Christians are ______.)

You are taking an enormous group of individuals, and based on a single factor, you are pre-judging the entire group (as having the worst behavior possible.) This is prejudice. This is bigotry.

Are you a Christian? If you are a Christian woman, you could be stoned to death in the town square for speaking on the sabbath without a male's permission and for displeasing God by wearing fabric woven of more than one fiber. If you really piss him off (note I said "him" - the God of Christianity clearly identifies as a man), you might cause a flood and wipe us all out, so watch it!

(You have lived your entire life right surrounded by people that are members of one of the three most violent religions - the Abrahamic religions. Stop being so scared.)

This crap doesn't belong on Project Avalon. It is divisive, prejudicial, alarmist, fear-mongering, playing into the hands of the Controllers that want the latest boogeymen, Muslims, demonized to fuel the fear to manipulate you and millions of others to acquiesce to war and death and oil and gas pipelines and US military bases and global control. TURN OFF YOUR TV. Avalon is a coming together of humanity, not a division of humanity into racist cliques.

Would you put your child in a room with many poisonous snakes and some snakes that are not, would you risk it that they may get bitten by a poisonous snake. Just asking.

Wow!, I would have missed that if I wasn't curious about Dennis's reasoning background. Am I ,one of the snakes now because I was born in that way? Bravo!

[Tangri]

I have decided to put back up my previous comment that I deleted because I see it did not go away anyway, still in every one's comments. So here it is. Yes it does sound bigoted and I guess I am a bigot but so what? I have every much the right to say how I feel. Anyone who makes fun of my sharing of my feelings and criticizes me as a person and demeans me is a bigot too as they are bigoted against my feelings and opinions.

I agree up to a point that America should take in the poor, the homeless, the tempest tossed. However are we as a whole supposed to welcome people who hate us, are jealous, and want to destroy this country and take it over, to rape our women, cut off our daughter's clitorises, rape our children, beat our women, stone them and behead them or kill family members if they wish because they worship a murderous, bloodthirsty pedophile who advocated that anyone that does not believe in allah should be killed? As a freedom loving American I welcome immigrants but do not welcome people who wish us harm, and I am sorry if that makes me a bad person. Would you want a male Muslim babysitting for your children, and would you trust them alone with your daughters and wives. If the answer is no then that is because it is unwise to invite someone whom believes in violence and rape into your home. I just call that common sense. Would you put your child in a room with many poisonous snakes and some snakes that are not, would you risk it that they may get bitten by a poisonous snake. Just asking. Now I am sure you think me a bad American, but welcoming concept sometimes has to use some reasoning too. Muslims as a whole do not want to assimilate, they want to take over our country. I for one want a future for my granddaughter where she does not have to live in fear. I for one do not want to see life for women like back into the dark ages where they are just objects for a man's pleasure. I for one do not want to have to stay inside to avoid being raped or mugged or killed. Read the other day that some mayor in Sweden told the women to just get used to staying inside, and not going to public places as they may get raped or killed or both, and that they just should get used to it. I do not want that for America, but if you collectively do, then I guess I am a horrible person, a Muslimophobe. Sorry for the ramble but it makes me feel good to get it out, lol.

So there, I have said it again. There are words I would have changed, but I am keeping it the same.

Would you put your child in a room with many poisonous snakes and some snakes that are not, would you risk it that they may get bitten by a poisonous snake.

Shame on you!

Shame on me if I don't say anything to your kind.

[Tangri]

Actually you are right Sam, something very traumatic has colored my viewpoints greatly. I am trying to overcome that. I have a dear woman friend in Irag whom I have corresponded with for many years. Many of my viewpoints have been formed listening to her tell me all about Muslim beliefs, Sharia law, and how the muslim culture views women and female children and their place in the world. Back in 2015 she wrote to me in horror. A group of muslim men subdued her at knife point and forced her to watch them gang rape her 9 year old daughter. They raped her until the horrific injuries added up and she died from the assault. Being the mother of 11 sons, I knew and understand her anger, hatred and horror of losing her only child to such a horrific attack. We still correspond and she is trying to deal with it, but she is struggling greatly and there is not a day that goes by that I do not get angry that a group of barbaric men thought that it was their right to do that to her daughter. Yes I have to admit, I see all the horrors of done by SOME Muslims behaviors and get really angry and apprehensive about our country getting flooded by those behaviors . I know it is not right to assume they are ALL like that, but my friend said that that is the customs and beliefs of Muslim religion and that those behaviors are greatly condoned by the majority of believers.. That is what I rail against those beliefs. Dennis, if I had said that I am horrified by child rapists, people who disfigure and maim the genitalia for life of little girls, women abusers, people who believe it ok to kill family members if they wish, that I have great trepidation for our country being overrun with child rapists, pedophiles, animal rapists, men who think nothing of stoning their wife to death, would you still call me a bigot? Just wondering? It was the saying the word Muslim that you found offensive I am sure. Yes I did do the faux pa by saying the M---sli- word. You compare me to
Fox news, but I compare you to mainstream media, so we are even, lol. MSM does not like the word Muslim extremeists and also like to whitewash all the horrors that have occurred that was done by M-----ms. My viewpoint is my viewpoint and that does not change. I have lost two of my son's to murder as well by a "minority group", and I struggle to make it not personal every day. I see things as a mother trying to protect my family and that will never change. Hope we can call a truce, all of you that feel I am a horrible person for being afraid for the future of the US. I have very personal reasons. If you were to check on the web you would be assaulted by headlines that back up some of my fears, feel free to do so. I am sure however that the ideological people who see no wrong and call people bigots/or racist will not, but that is ok and their choice. Just don't judge me without walking in my shoes, my struggle is great and very personal. A mother in mourning is not always politically correct when talking through great pain and sorrow.

Thanks to god, you don't hate Christian hind's

http://www.hindustantimes.com/delhi-news/munirka-bus-stop-where-dec-16-gang-rape-victim-boarded-vehicle-still-in-gloom/story-IoMox7Ha4cnDu0erRdPjHK.html

[marique3652]

If I am a person who is not fit to belong here, maybe Bill will tell me to leave. Until he does I will continue to be a member.

Well, I heard my name there, and feel kind of invoked. :)

No-one's telling anyone to leave. I think the general issues discussed here (or, that are open to be discussed) are really important. They affect us all, and our future, and there are agendas at play, and our emotions are often engineered (by others, of course) to run very high.

The issues are often cultural. Not always 'racial'. I'm certain of that.

And the NWO agenda is all about a drip-feed erosion of nation-states, national boundaries, and the Vitamix-blending of all distinct, colorful cultures into some dreadful, gray, consumer-puppeteered, media-hypnotized mediocrity. Look at the EU. It's a case study for us all.

My situation in Ecuador is interesting, because I'm the migrant who should not be here.

I can legally live here (and my residency here is all 100% good), but culturally I'm a square-peg-in-a-round-hole misfit. I don't go to Church, barely speak the language, don't understand what all the local festivals are — and I have little genuine interest in them anyway. I like the local people, I really do, but my language skills aren't conversational enough to engage any other than superficially.

I should really 'go home' — except that (like Syrian refugees) I have no home to go to. I have no family, no roots, no nothing. I am literally a kind of homeless nomad.

I'm not here in Ecuador as an 'economic migrant', but my entire reason to be here is self-interest of various kinds. I'm certainly not here to help Ecuador. That was never in my thoughts. It was all about me. (With most people, it is. Just telling it straight here.)

And I feel the locals' thoughts, sometimes. Not everywhere — but in some places, with a few people I run into. Basically, the locals are gradually, slowly, becoming fearful of the future, and resentful of the invaders which they, personally, never invited. They feel they have no control.

More and more Americans are coming to Ecuador. Simply because it's cheaper, healthier, or (for some) safer. It's an easy option, at Ecuador's expense.

It's all self-interest. And there's very little integration.

In Vilcabamba, it's broken into real violence. A different story, not to be told here, but black magic shamans are picking off the gringos there like snipers. Not a joke.

People are being killed, burglarized, raped. Because a handful of resistance fighter local shamans see them as just more white Conquistadores, with an arrogant, superior sense of entitlement. These local guys, just a few, but with quite a lot of power, want them all dead. They really do. It's quite an untold story.

None of this is 'racism'. None at all. It's all about cultural heritage, sovereignty, territory, respect — or the lack of it. And integration, or the lack of that. The black magic shamans believe they're freedom fighters, reclaiming their stolen land.

I don't support their extreme approach, of course — that's all karmically going to implode on them, and they really hurt people, badly (or worse) — but I actually understand how they feel.

I'm not racist, at all. I was brought up in West Africa as a young child, and since then have traveled extensively in Africa and India. I genuinely love those people. I don't care about anyone's race or skin color. That's like caring about the color of someone's car, or house.

But if I was an Ecuadorian, I would absolutely not want me here.

:)

***

@ Marique, please post the link to your rape/murder story. That might help. If it's easy to find, you should be able to dig it up no problem. Thanks. The best defense against being called a liar is always to show proof of the truth.

Thank you Bill for not asking me to leave, I know many wish I would. I am struggling with a lot of personal tragedies at the moment and I see in hindsight I should have kept my pain and struggling to myself. I have made many members here very angry and that was not my intent. I just took a chance and said how I felt and what I am struggling with, and in hindsight it was not a good idea. I did learn a lot from the responses though, and really saw why people think I am a bigot. I totally get it now. It is something that I am going to have to work through, and I appreciate you letting me stay, and I will try not to anger people any more. I will try to think things out before I share in the future, and be very careful not to hurt any one's feelings or overgeneralize or categorize people.. I realized that if I were ranting about brutal behaviors and not labeling people that I would have been far better off, a lesson I will carry forward. Dennis's test were good ones, and it opened my mind to my black and white thinking, and for that I am grateful. Below I have shared links about what I spoke of. I really should not have to prove I am not a liar or troll, but if I am to stay here, maybe this once it might be helpful. The Mainstream media never shares these types of horror stories because it does not support their agenda and their story that there is no problem with forced mixing of opposing cultures. My fears are real to me, and I am thankful that people took me to task, but wish in the future that if someone has a deep problem with me, they would have the courtesy to privately talk with me, and not take pot shots at me personally on the main board. I have always tried to be polite and nonoffensive in my dealings with members here and will hope that I will not be ostracized publicly on this forum. I feel like now I have alienated many members and that was not my intent, and I hate the feeling that I am not good enough to be a member here, and that everyone will think of me as that bigot troll. But also the experience has taught me about how many Muslims feel, and I will have more compassion for their plights as well.

http://shoebat.com/2015/10/09/muslims-force-woman-to-watch-her-nine-year-old-daughter-getting-raped-to-death/
http://freedomoutpost.com/muslims-force-woman-to-watch-her-nine-year-old-daughter-getting-raped-to-death/
http://www.14words.net/2015/11/muslim-terrorists-force-woman-to-watch.html
http://www.iol.co.za/dailynews/news/mother-forced-to-watch-daughter-being-gang-raped-1480693
https://lockerdome.com/jewsnews/9175747529071380
http://madworldnews.com/muslims-make-mother-watch/

There are more links but it is painful for me to keep digging. This was a horror that no mother should have to endure. I raised 11 sons, two I have lost to senseless brutal murders. I know the pain of losing a child (mine were grown) to violence and have them die at the hands of barbarians in war. It is not easy to deal with, the struggle is every day. I will honestly try not to let this color my thinking, but dammit, it is not easy. All I can promise is to keep my feelings to myself if that is what everyone wishes.

[turiya]

If I am a person who is not fit to belong here, maybe Bill will tell me to leave. Until he does I will continue to be a member.

Well, I heard my name there, and feel kind of invoked. :)

No-one's telling anyone to leave. I think the general issues discussed here (or, that are open to be discussed) are really important. They affect us all, and our future, and there are agendas at play, and our emotions are often engineered (by others, of course) to run very high.

***

@ Marique, please post the link to your rape/murder story. That might help. If it's easy to find, you should be able to dig it up no problem. Thanks. The best defense against being called a liar is always to show proof of the truth.

I think this would be what marique is referring to, perhaps she can confirm this:


Deseret News Utah

3 Ordered to Stand Trial in
Gang Rape of 9-Year-Old Girl (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865658054/3-ordered-to-stand-trial-in-gang-rape-of-9-year-old-girl.html)

Charges dropped against 4th man after
girl's mother fails to show up to testify

By McKenzie Romero @McKenzieRomero
Published: Oct. 26, 2016 3:00 p.m.

SOURCE (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865658054/3-ordered-to-stand-trial-in-gang-rape-of-9-year-old-girl.html)

[abmqa]

I hit the thanks button on Mr. Leahy's message only because he chose to do the right thing and take leave. His apology doesn't mean much to me as once you put a slanderous label on someone that's it, damage done.

I considered reapplying to the forum and obtain a different user name because of his targeting, which I know I wouldn't have been the first or last to do so, but his was such a common reaction to dealing with perceptions that conflict with his own and though I was bothered by his targeting but was neither 'shamed' as he flatters himself to have caused, nor bothered to that great extent, I decided to not get another user name.

Unfortunately one cannot put a mod on Ignore. As I'm as passionate in my views as he is in his, his mind-set was only going to steer him in the next inevitability - censorship.
There are cultural trends taking place in our society that are not palatable to say the least and I write my interpretations without vulgarities and without naming other board members. If I were to be censored it would be a reflection of qualities that run counter to the creation of the forum, not a reflection of wrongdoing on my part. And life goes on....



Really?? Perhaps you need reminding of this post of yours? .....

I wish you peace, love and happiness as you travel and navigate your way through life.

Above is the first and last sentence of your post. Are you familiar with the term "passive aggressive"?
I'll put your well wishes for me in the same file as mr. L's 'apology'. Ciao

Hi Helene,

Sorry to make you uncomfortable with my observations. However, refusing to address the facts of your false statement and hypocrisy, only amplifies the issues. Perhaps you should consider using well-reasoned arguments rather than ad hominem attacks??

If you think I am wrong, then its sensible that you should state why. Identifying errors in reasoning is quite appropriate. Ad hominem attacks are not.

Wish you the best!:heart:

Below is the rest of my post.


http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1150725

[marique3652]

I am sorry that people do not make me feel welcome here lately, I thought this was a site where we could share our thoughts and experiences together.

Marique, please know that there are those who value your presence and your authentic experience. The Avalon you have described does still exist, it's just been shouted down a bit the last year by those in service to their personal belief systems. We're still here.

You and I may, or may not, have very different views and may support opposing positions. That's irrelevant. If we listen to each other, if we respect that life and circumstance can create different perspectives, if we collaborate to understand each other, then I don't see how that could be a bad thing. I hope that you will continue to share your heart and your personal truth.

May all beings be free from suffering. May all beings be at peace.

Thank you Whiskey_Mystic. I so agree with your wish for humanity, that all beings will be free from suffering and may all beings live in peace. I pray in the future generations that this will finally become a reality. I have learned many wisdoms from this post.

[marique3652]

If I am a person who is not fit to belong here, maybe Bill will tell me to leave. Until he does I will continue to be a member.

Well, I heard my name there, and feel kind of invoked. :)

No-one's telling anyone to leave. I think the general issues discussed here (or, that are open to be discussed) are really important. They affect us all, and our future, and there are agendas at play, and our emotions are often engineered (by others, of course) to run very high.

***

@ Marique, please post the link to your rape/murder story. That might help. If it's easy to find, you should be able to dig it up no problem. Thanks. The best defense against being called a liar is always to show proof of the truth.

I think this would be what marique is referring to, perhaps she can confirm that this is what she is referring to:


Deseret News Utah

3 Ordered to Stand Trial in
Gang Rape of 9-Year-Old Girl (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865658054/3-ordered-to-stand-trial-in-gang-rape-of-9-year-old-girl.html)

Charges dropped against 4th man after
girl's mother fails to show up to testify

By McKenzie Romero @McKenzieRomero
Published: Oct. 26, 2016 3:00 p.m.

SOURCE (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865658054/3-ordered-to-stand-trial-in-gang-rape-of-9-year-old-girl.html)

This is not what I was referring to but there are many horror stories that have not been publicized on Mainstream news due to their bias and agenda. Here are some of the links to what I am referring to:

http://shoebat.com/2015/10/09/muslims-force-woman-to-watch-her-nine-year-old-daughter-getting-raped-to-death/
http://freedomoutpost.com/muslims-force-woman-to-watch-her-nine-year-old-daughter-getting-raped-to-death/
http://www.14words.net/2015/11/muslim-terrorists-force-woman-to-watch.html
http://www.iol.co.za/dailynews/news/mother-forced-to-watch-daughter-being-gang-raped-1480693
https://lockerdome.com/jewsnews/9175747529071380
http://madworldnews.com/muslims-make-mother-watch/

[TargeT]

The issues are often cultural. Not always 'racial'. I'm certain of that.

I would phrase that differently.

Issues are (even racism) cultural; our environment is extremely influential (both mental and physical)... Racism is a thought construct, it is something that has to be fed mental energy to exist and it's based on our base human programming in a twisted way but is not a natural phenomenon.

Understanding this is important because it starts us on the path to correcting the issue, not just writing people off as "racist".


the locals are gradually, slowly, becoming fearful of the future, and resentful of the invaders which they, personally, never invited. They feel they have no control.

This is the case where I live as well, tourists are targeted for crime because the local culture sees them as invaders and it's more acceptable to "steal" or "take advantage" of them because of it....

A lot of the (white) locals have fallen into the "everything's racist trap"... I hear stories about DWW (driving while white), and a lot of other descriptions I've heard before (but not with "white" mixed in). And with those comments lead to "anger" based responses, not understanding of the actual situation. I imagine this influences the social interactions with the native population, which gives both parties a bad interaction which can feed right back into the "racist" meme.




It's all about cultural heritage, sovereignty, territory, respect — or the lack of it. And integration, or the lack of that.

This is the crux of it in my mind, what it all comes down to, and the burden is on the outsider (in my mind).







I believe Bill is 100% correct that these issues are cultural and not about race.

And in saying that, we are still acknowledging there is an issue there.. but clarity is very important "racist" is a crappy, lazy-thinking, shortcut label that lends nothing to assist the issues at hand. That label does not lead to useful thought patterns.





I can think of no better way to ensure permanent strife and chaos than to force different cultures into close proximity and then constantly report every negative world event emphasising race, religion of culture at every opportunity.

pushing the divide further and further, exactly.

[Flash]

Interesting comments, about heresay. I must tell you all here on Avalon that whenever i give comments, similar to those of Marique, my comments are not heresay. They are based on lived experiences by me, no one else usually.

Most men will not understand what I am talking about, because most men have not been submitted to harsh sex segregation against them.

In the Muslim world, Turkey is pretty tolerant about other religions and has been for centuries as well as about women rights. I had no difficulties with males while living there.

But I had plenty difficulties in Canada in business where I had to have male colleagues repeating word for word what I would say as an expert in my field, because as a woman, I would not be listen to by the Muslim clients I was talking to, but the colleagues, as males, could be listened to and received answers even if they knew zip zero in the field.

I had problems with my immigrant Muslim ultra sexist boss (he had me by roll of the dice because his choice was to only have male consultants working for him, I was the only female in his team and gosh was i harassed psychologically - may Canadian colleagues hated him but would do nothing to protect the only female of their team - that is leniency of our peers that they count on).

I had problems at university where a large population of Muslim foreign students were studying as well, as I had in Montreal streets and stores, and in France.

those were not constant problems everywhere, but definitely regularly recurring ones involving mainly Muslim men.

As I have been married to a non practicing Muslim, I read the Quran inside out as well as books explaining it to make sure I understood their religion and where their culture came from. So I could tell my daughter that following their laws, she is Muslim (the dad gives the religion) but to not tell this to Muslims because fanatic may kill her - she never practiced that religion and is areligious and this is death penalty following Sharia law.

Let me tell you, this religion is the worst when it comes to woman. The bible is a piece of real bad and violent work (my opinion), maybe describing the societies of its time, but the Quran is far from better, it is worst. The Quran is an edict of different societal laws for tribes that would not stop making war and had unclean behavior, for the societies of its time.

Both have no place in today's world in my opinion. They both promote intolerance and hatred. The difference being that the Bible writings does not promote killing everyone one else if they do not convert to christianism (although the crusaders did 1000 years ago). The Quran does, in its writings through the jihad, to which every practicing Muslim is obliged to submit. Most Muslims won't kill, but the fanatics will and that makes them earn right to Heaven after they pass away.

As a woman, I have to refuse Muslim based behaviors and religion, which are extremely repressive for women and girls. As I have to refuse children having access to porn and occidental hyper sexualisation of children, as I have to refuse morally detrimental and psychologically destructive behaviors and laws.



"Are you saying that raping young girls to death is a prominent feature of Muslim countries? They have a long way to go in terms of gender equality, granted, but this incident would be considered deplorable by the majority of Muslims. Though you appear to be struggling with generalizing from specifics, your following statements continue to do just that."

"Islamic people are zero threat to Americans who were born in the U.S. You could absorb hundreds of thousands and it would barely make a dent in your cultural values. The greatest threat or contagion from Islam, would be having more 'ethnic foods' and restaurants to choose from. And seeing as most of us have been inoculated by eating humus, it might actually be a win win.

I may accuse you of generalizing as well when you say there is NO threat. May I ask for you to substantiate that Islamic people are ZERO threat to Americans born in the US? What is your substantiating facts that lead you to your conclusion? I am only interested in facts and not your opinion or world view. My view comes from many sources, a direct ongoing 20 year friendship with an Muslim woman in Iraq who was raised with Muslim ideology, who has lived through experiences at the hands of Muslim men that you have never had. Have you lived with Muslims, have you ever even talked with a muslim man and woman? I read the news, watch the news daily, as see a lot of what happens when a country ends up with peoples whose values are very opposed to one another. I correspond daily with a dear male non-muslim friend in Paris who tells me of all the negative changes in Paris as the result of out of control immigration. If you can prove to me factually that there is ZERO threat to our country, then I will be very surprised. Have your even read the Quran, have you taken the time to read all the information available about what Sharia law is. I have read the Quran twice and I also have greatly studied the Sharia Law system. Have you? I am sure you are thinking that my beliefs come from heresay, and I will beat you to the punch by saying yes a lot is heresay from dear friends who are actually living with Muslims. But I also have done extensive research in quest for answers, and wondering if you did too. I am just interested in how you came to the conclusion that there is no threat to this country, and want to point out that you are just as guilty of generalizing. We will never agree just wanted to point out what you said and await your explanation as to why they pose ZERO threat to America?? I am very interested.

[turiya]

Sorry, marique... I got it wrong. We seemed to be just a split second apart...
thanks for the correction.

Article links:
http://shoebat.com/2015/10/09/muslims-force-woman-to-watch-her-nine-year-old-daughter-getting-raped-to-death/
http://freedomoutpost.com/muslims-force-woman-to-watch-her-nine-year-old-daughter-getting-raped-to-death/
http://www.14words.net/2015/11/muslim-terrorists-force-woman-to-watch.html
http://www.iol.co.za/dailynews/news/mother-forced-to-watch-daughter-being-gang-raped-1480693
https://lockerdome.com/jewsnews/9175747529071380
http://madworldnews.com/muslims-make-mother-watch/

[abmqa]

If I am a person who is not fit to belong here, maybe Bill will tell me to leave. Until he does I will continue to be a member.

Well, I heard my name there, and feel kind of invoked. :)

No-one's telling anyone to leave. I think the general issues discussed here (or, that are open to be discussed) are really important. They affect us all, and our future, and there are agendas at play, and our emotions are often engineered (by others, of course) to run very high.

The issues are often cultural. Not always 'racial'. I'm certain of that.

And the NWO agenda is all about a drip-feed erosion of nation-states, national boundaries, and the Vitamix-blending of all distinct, colorful cultures into some dreadful, gray, consumer-puppeteered, media-hypnotized mediocrity. Look at the EU. It's a case study for us all.

My situation in Ecuador is interesting, because I'm the migrant who should not be here.

I can legally live here (and my residency here is all 100% good), but culturally I'm a square-peg-in-a-round-hole misfit. I don't go to Church, barely speak the language, don't understand what all the local festivals are — and I have little genuine interest in them anyway. I like the local people, I really do, but my language skills aren't conversational enough to engage any other than superficially.

I should really 'go home' — except that (like Syrian refugees) I have no home to go to. I have no family, no roots, no nothing. I am literally a kind of homeless nomad.

I'm not here in Ecuador as an 'economic migrant', but my entire reason to be here is self-interest of various kinds. I'm certainly not here to help Ecuador. That was never in my thoughts. It was all about me. (With most people, it is. Just telling it straight here.)

And I feel the locals' thoughts, sometimes. Not everywhere — but in some places, with a few people I run into. Basically, the locals are gradually, slowly, becoming fearful of the future, and resentful of the invaders which they, personally, never invited. They feel they have no control.

More and more Americans are coming to Ecuador. Simply because it's cheaper, healthier, or (for some) safer. It's an easy option, at Ecuador's expense.

It's all self-interest. And there's very little integration.

In Vilcabamba, it's broken into real violence. A different story, not to be told here, but black magic shamans are picking off the gringos there like snipers. Not a joke.

People are being killed, burglarized, raped. Because a handful of resistance fighter local shamans see them as just more white Conquistadores, with an arrogant, superior sense of entitlement. These local guys, just a few, but with quite a lot of power, want them all dead. They really do. It's quite an untold story.

None of this is 'racism'. None at all. It's all about cultural heritage, sovereignty, territory, respect — or the lack of it. And integration, or the lack of that. The black magic shamans believe they're freedom fighters, reclaiming their stolen land.

I don't support their extreme approach, of course — that's all karmically going to implode on them, and they really hurt people, badly (or worse) — but I actually understand how they feel.

I'm not racist, at all. I was brought up in West Africa as a young child, and since then have traveled extensively in Africa and India. I genuinely love those people. I don't care about anyone's race or skin color. That's like caring about the color of someone's car, or house.

But if I was an Ecuadorian, I would absolutely not want me here.

:)

***

@ Marique, please post the link to your rape/murder story. That might help. If it's easy to find, you should be able to dig it up no problem. Thanks. The best defense against being called a liar is always to show proof of the truth.

Thank you Bill for not asking me to leave, I know many wish I would. I am struggling with a lot of personal tragedies at the moment and I see in hindsight I should have kept my pain and struggling to myself. I have made many members here very angry and that was not my intent. I just took a chance and said how I felt and what I am struggling with, and in hindsight it was not a good idea. I did learn a lot from the responses though, and really saw why people think I am a bigot. I totally get it now. It is something that I am going to have to work through, and I appreciate you letting me stay, and I will try not to anger people any more. I will try to think things out before I share in the future, and be very careful not to hurt any one's feelings or overgeneralize or categorize people.. I realized that if I were ranting about brutal behaviors and not labeling people that I would have been far better off, a lesson I will carry forward. Dennis's test were good ones, and it opened my mind to my black and white thinking, and for that I am grateful. Below I have shared links about what I spoke of. I really should not have to prove I am not a liar or troll, but if I am to stay here, maybe this once it might be helpful. The Mainstream media never shares these types of horror stories because it does not support their agenda and their story that there is no problem with forced mixing of opposing cultures. My fears are real to me, and I am thankful that people took me to task, but wish in the future that if someone has a deep problem with me, they would have the courtesy to privately talk with me, and not take pot shots at me personally on the main board. I have always tried to be polite and nonoffensive in my dealings with members here and will hope that I will not be ostracized publicly on this forum. I feel like now I have alienated many members and that was not my intent, and I hate the feeling that I am not good enough to be a member here, and that everyone will think of me as that bigot troll. But also the experience has taught me about how many Muslims feel, and I will have more compassion for their plights as well.

http://shoebat.com/2015/10/09/muslims-force-woman-to-watch-her-nine-year-old-daughter-getting-raped-to-death/
http://freedomoutpost.com/muslims-force-woman-to-watch-her-nine-year-old-daughter-getting-raped-to-death/
http://www.14words.net/2015/11/muslim-terrorists-force-woman-to-watch.html
http://www.iol.co.za/dailynews/news/mother-forced-to-watch-daughter-being-gang-raped-1480693
https://lockerdome.com/jewsnews/9175747529071380
http://madworldnews.com/muslims-make-mother-watch/

There are more links but it is painful for me to keep digging. This was a horror that no mother should have to endure. I raised 11 sons, two I have lost to senseless brutal murders. I know the pain of losing a child (mine were grown) to violence and have them die at the hands of barbarians in war. It is not easy to deal with, the struggle is every day. I will honestly try not to let this color my thinking, but dammit, it is not easy. All I can promise is to keep my feelings to myself if that is what everyone wishes.

Hi Marique,

You have seen me be quite vocal about this subject, yet I have not before now addressed your comments here publicly. I for one do not want to see you leave or be banned. From reading your initial post here I got the strong impression of you being a nice person who is extremely and genuinely afraid. Although I don't agree with how you expressed that fear, I certainly do understand it and commiserate with you.

I wish that there was something I could say or do to change what has happened and alleviate your pain, but that is not in my power. There are many throughout the world that would like to cause us harm and inflict pain and terror. However, if you allow them to change the person that you are then they have achieved their goal.

The facts are there are groups of Radical Islamist's that we are currently at war with. There are also millions and millions of Muslims who are honest, and peaceful people. People like you and I, who's only desire is to be happy and live in peace. It's important not to group all of them together lest we insult one group while rightly criticizing the other.

I am very sorry that you have had this tragedy in your life. I hope one day you will find peace of mind.:flower::flower:

[marique3652]

Interesting comments, about heresay. I must tell you all here on Avalon that whenever i give comments, similar to those of Marique, my comments are not heresay. They are based on lived experiences by me, no one else usually.

Most men will not understand what I am talking about, because most men have not been submitted to harsh sex segregation against them.

In the Muslim world, Turkey is pretty tolerant about other religions and has been for centuries as well as about women rights. I had no difficulties with males while living there.

But I had plenty difficulties in Canada in business where I had to have male colleagues repeating word for word what I would say as an expert in my field, because as a woman, I would not be listen to by the Muslim clients I was talking to, but the colleagues, as males, could be listened to and received answers even if they knew zip zero in the field.

I had problems with my immigrant Muslim ultra sexist boss (he had me by roll of the dice because his choice was to only have male consultants working for him, I was the only female in his team and gosh was i harassed psychologically - may Canadian colleagues hated him but would do nothing to protect the only female of their team - that is leniency of our peers that they count on).

I had problems at university where a large population of Muslim foreign students were studying as well, as I had in Montreal streets and stores, and in France.

those were not constant problems everywhere, but definitely regularly recurring ones involving mainly Muslim men.

As I have been married to a non practicing Muslim, I read the Quran inside out as well as books explaining it to make sure I understood their religion and where their culture came from. So I could tell my daughter that following their laws, she is Muslim (the dad gives the religion) but to not tell this to Muslims because fanatic may kill her - she never practiced that religion and is areligious and this is death penalty following Sharia law.

Let me tell you, this religion is the worst when it comes to woman. The bible is a piece of real bad and violent work (my opinion), maybe describing the societies of its time, but the Quran is far from better, it is worst. The Quran is an edict of different societal laws for tribes that would not stop making war and had unclean behavior, for the societies of its time.

Both have no place in today's world in my opinion. They both promote intolerance and hatred. The difference being that the Bible writings does not promote killing everyone one else if they do not convert to christianism (although the crusaders did 1000 years ago). The Quran does, in its writings through the jihad, to which every practicing Muslim is obliged to submit. Most Muslims won't kill, but the fanatics will and that makes them earn right to Heaven after they pass away.

As a woman, I have to refuse Muslim based behaviors and religion, which are extremely repressive for women and girls. As I have to refuse children having access to porn and occidental hyper sexualisation of children, as I have to refuse morally detrimental and psychologically destructive behaviors and laws.



"Are you saying that raping young girls to death is a prominent feature of Muslim countries? They have a long way to go in terms of gender equality, granted, but this incident would be considered deplorable by the majority of Muslims. Though you appear to be struggling with generalizing from specifics, your following statements continue to do just that."

"Islamic people are zero threat to Americans who were born in the U.S. You could absorb hundreds of thousands and it would barely make a dent in your cultural values. The greatest threat or contagion from Islam, would be having more 'ethnic foods' and restaurants to choose from. And seeing as most of us have been inoculated by eating humus, it might actually be a win win.

I may accuse you of generalizing as well when you say there is NO threat. May I ask for you to substantiate that Islamic people are ZERO threat to Americans born in the US? What is your substantiating facts that lead you to your conclusion? I am only interested in facts and not your opinion or world view. My view comes from many sources, a direct ongoing 20 year friendship with an Muslim woman in Iraq who was raised with Muslim ideology, who has lived through experiences at the hands of Muslim men that you have never had. Have you lived with Muslims, have you ever even talked with a muslim man and woman? I read the news, watch the news daily, as see a lot of what happens when a country ends up with peoples whose values are very opposed to one another. I correspond daily with a dear male non-muslim friend in Paris who tells me of all the negative changes in Paris as the result of out of control immigration. If you can prove to me factually that there is ZERO threat to our country, then I will be very surprised. Have your even read the Quran, have you taken the time to read all the information available about what Sharia law is. I have read the Quran twice and I also have greatly studied the Sharia Law system. Have you? I am sure you are thinking that my beliefs come from heresay, and I will beat you to the punch by saying yes a lot is heresay from dear friends who are actually living with Muslims. But I also have done extensive research in quest for answers, and wondering if you did too. I am just interested in how you came to the conclusion that there is no threat to this country, and want to point out that you are just as guilty of generalizing. We will never agree just wanted to point out what you said and await your explanation as to why they pose ZERO threat to America?? I am very interested.

Thank you Flash, your contribution to this discussion is valuable to me, actually all comments and sharings have been very helpful to me, even the ones that hurt my feelings. I agree about the quran and I agree that this ideology does not favor women one bit. Sharia law scares the hell out of me to be honest, and I for one cannot understand how many in the feminist movement are actually WANTING Sharia law...It is beyond a mystery to me, as all the rights we have currently as women would be lost and we would become male possessions, that can be brutalized at the will of any man/men with no consequence, because it is permitted and condone in their "holy" book. That frightens me. I know now everyone will jump on my crap for saying it frightens me but dam!

[marique3652]

I have decided to put back up my previous comment that I deleted because I see it did not go away anyway, still in every one's comments. So here it is. Yes it does sound bigoted and I guess I am a bigot but so what? I have every much the right to say how I feel. Anyone who makes fun of my sharing of my feelings and criticizes me as a person and demeans me is a bigot too as they are bigoted against my feelings and opinions.

I agree up to a point that America should take in the poor, the homeless, the tempest tossed. However are we as a whole supposed to welcome people who hate us, are jealous, and want to destroy this country and take it over, to rape our women, cut off our daughter's clitorises, rape our children, beat our women, stone them and behead them or kill family members if they wish because they worship a murderous, bloodthirsty pedophile who advocated that anyone that does not believe in allah should be killed? As a freedom loving American I welcome immigrants but do not welcome people who wish us harm, and I am sorry if that makes me a bad person. Would you want a male Muslim babysitting for your children, and would you trust them alone with your daughters and wives. If the answer is no then that is because it is unwise to invite someone whom believes in violence and rape into your home. I just call that common sense. Would you put your child in a room with many poisonous snakes and some snakes that are not, would you risk it that they may get bitten by a poisonous snake. Just asking. Now I am sure you think me a bad American, but welcoming concept sometimes has to use some reasoning too. Muslims as a whole do not want to assimilate, they want to take over our country. I for one want a future for my granddaughter where she does not have to live in fear. I for one do not want to see life for women like back into the dark ages where they are just objects for a man's pleasure. I for one do not want to have to stay inside to avoid being raped or mugged or killed. Read the other day that some mayor in Sweden told the women to just get used to staying inside, and not going to public places as they may get raped or killed or both, and that they just should get used to it. I do not want that for America, but if you collectively do, then I guess I am a horrible person, a Muslimophobe. Sorry for the ramble but it makes me feel good to get it out, lol.

So there, I have said it again. There are words I would have changed, but I am keeping it the same.

Would you put your child in a room with many poisonous snakes and some snakes that are not, would you risk it that they may get bitten by a poisonous snake.

Shame on you!

Shame on me if I don't say anything to your kind.

I am not proud of saying that, but it was the analogy that popped into my head. Raising eleven children, I always was watchful for anyone or anything that could hurt my children. I taught my children not to go off with strangers or take food or candy for anyone. I taught my children that just because a person is an adult that they are not obliged to blindly do what an adult tells them to do, that it is up to ME to monitor their behavior. I did teach them to not let anyone violate their body or make them uncomfortable, I taught them not to steal or hurt others. And yes, if I felt that a situation or people seem a danger to them, to let me know what is going on. The protection instinct is very great with me and if sometimes I go overboard in my protection of them, I make no apology. If I had had any daughters then I probably would have been even more protective I can honestly say. I ran into a similar dilemma when the issue of bathrooms allowing opposite genders in the bathroom. I got literally kicked to the curb when I said on a forum that there should be a bathroom for people who are biologically one gender while identifying as another. So I am no stranger to getting labeled and hated on for voicing my safety concerns. I still feel that anyone who feels that it is ok to kill or maim people because their holy book instructs them to and condones that behavior CAN be a potential threat to loved ones. I am now talking about ideology and not a race. I am talking about behaviors and belief systems that I feel could be dangerous. I know not all Muslims are like that, but having had two sons killed by Muslim men, I stand by that danger can be very real, and shaming me will not change my stance that sometimes people's belief systems can pose a threat to my family. Something I am not proud of and working on trying to change, but yes, I can honestly say that I would not shut my kids in a room of poisonous deadly snakes along with non poisonous ones, and hope that they are not bitten and killed. I stand by that. Yes horrible analogy, yes a gross overgeneralization, but it is what I feel, no matter how irrational that may seem. I am sorry if I have offended anyone, I truly am, but any danger to my family is something I take seriously, even if it is offensive to do so.

[abmqa]

It's when we are silent in the face of reprehensible behavior that we too become complicit in allowing it to continue unchallenged. I for one will always speak out against such issues. As I often ask myself; If not me, then who?

that I did not pass that test with a 100% score because I answered the question below with this answer, however I think I aced the rest of it. :o

Here's a quick self-test:

All women are _Crazy?_. <--- fill-in the correct word. Answer: yes woman are crazy, they are crazy about men - that is why the world is going so bad lolllllllllllll

Just kidding! :p



Anyway, I will miss you and I feel all of PA will miss you also.[COLOR="red"]same here, i was glad you were back and will happy again if you get back again

Now, to answer to the post comment above, - it is when silent in the face of reprehensible behavior -

this is exactly where the hit comes down: we cannot speak about it even when in the mist of reprehensible behavior, but this time, it is the majority who cannot speak out, not the minority.

In Canada we have HATE LAWS that stipulate that you cannot speak against a group or literally be racist, the Jewish community has used it abundantly to shut up people (David Ike for example) who speak for Palestine or against Israel or against the Jewish community in Canada.

And now the Muslims are succeeding in taking the law to force people not to speak against Islam.

We are not talking against a people or even a country here, we are talking against a religion, involving multiple countries and a vast multicultural basis.

The only difference between Islam and Judea is that Jews are a quite a close knit society and do not want anybody else to get into their nest (keep the power within for a chosen few) while Islam targets assimilation of the whole planet under their umbrella. (expand to take power over many and to dictate through Sharia).

This precisely IS INVATION from a minority group, this is not inclusion nor assimilation, on the contrary.

And the majority is too stupid not to see it, we let our governments be lenient or even helping.

Let me tell you, in my city, I do not feel like at home in many many neighborhoods anymore. I bet anything that many citizen of Cuenca in Ecuador or other cities in the world invaded by occidental feel the same.

Sometimes I am in South America, sometimes in North Africa, sometimes in Central Africa, depending on the neighborhoods I am walking through and almost always with complete disdain for the French Canadian. This from 1st generation immigrants, transmitted to their kids. Most immigrants are nice, but they are not being integrated, less assimilated.

The prime example of integration is Sam family. This is not happening in most places in my city.

Before, there was the Italian mafia (imported yeah!), the Hells Angels (mostly French in French Quebec since they assimilate lollllllllllll) and that was it.

Now there is the Italian mafia, the Hells Angels, the Vietnamese mafia, the Chinese mafia, the 13 (Salvador), the Columbian mafia, Oh... and the RUSSIAN mafia (those are tough), and the street gangs , mainly black, who are now adults and turned into real mafia, no arabic mafia!!!!???? (no need, they have the jihad and the oil, together)- how come we do not have the Swedish mafia or the French one from France?? - not to name the Jewish mafia because those are never arrested, all of these non integrated mafias.

Why don't we have ONE ONLY integrated mafia??? Yes silly, but that is exactly what the world government is trying to impose on us, citizens. With one integrated mafia we would know what we are confronting, us the regular small citizen. So, better dilute everything.

Why? Precisely because certain cultures do not match, even within mafia groups, and pitting them one against the other allows for cultural backlash and overall societal mafia take over, same as in the general population.

Mafia wars until we get one world government govern them under the auspice of an umbrella mafia covering all aspects. In between, many mafias and many mixes of societies to destroy all potential opposition.

Same with the general populations and different identities.

All this being said, I do think the planet has to come to a whole planet, without division, but certainly not the way it is being done now, and certainly not under service to self entities as we have now.

Hi Flash - I don't know what the mafia is like in Canada, or that there was a mafia there. I was born and raised in New Jersey. The mafia as it existed here has extremely strict rules pertaining to heritage. If you're not full blood Italian, then you cannot be "Made". Now that stated, that doesn't mean non-Italians could not work for them. It just means you are not afforded the same protections and benefits of being made.

I understood the hate laws were to prevent entire groups of people from being discriminated against because of ethnicity or religion. Where you say the Jewish community have used them to shut down people like David Icke. I do not want to speak for him, however I think he would correct you by sayings it's the Zionist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism)Jews, rather than the entire Jewish community that is primarily to blame.

[marique3652]

If I am a person who is not fit to belong here, maybe Bill will tell me to leave. Until he does I will continue to be a member.

Well, I heard my name there, and feel kind of invoked. :)

No-one's telling anyone to leave. I think the general issues discussed here (or, that are open to be discussed) are really important. They affect us all, and our future, and there are agendas at play, and our emotions are often engineered (by others, of course) to run very high.

The issues are often cultural. Not always 'racial'. I'm certain of that.

And the NWO agenda is all about a drip-feed erosion of nation-states, national boundaries, and the Vitamix-blending of all distinct, colorful cultures into some dreadful, gray, consumer-puppeteered, media-hypnotized mediocrity. Look at the EU. It's a case study for us all.

My situation in Ecuador is interesting, because I'm the migrant who should not be here.

I can legally live here (and my residency here is all 100% good), but culturally I'm a square-peg-in-a-round-hole misfit. I don't go to Church, barely speak the language, don't understand what all the local festivals are — and I have little genuine interest in them anyway. I like the local people, I really do, but my language skills aren't conversational enough to engage any other than superficially.

I should really 'go home' — except that (like Syrian refugees) I have no home to go to. I have no family, no roots, no nothing. I am literally a kind of homeless nomad.

I'm not here in Ecuador as an 'economic migrant', but my entire reason to be here is self-interest of various kinds. I'm certainly not here to help Ecuador. That was never in my thoughts. It was all about me. (With most people, it is. Just telling it straight here.)

And I feel the locals' thoughts, sometimes. Not everywhere — but in some places, with a few people I run into. Basically, the locals are gradually, slowly, becoming fearful of the future, and resentful of the invaders which they, personally, never invited. They feel they have no control.

More and more Americans are coming to Ecuador. Simply because it's cheaper, healthier, or (for some) safer. It's an easy option, at Ecuador's expense.

It's all self-interest. And there's very little integration.

In Vilcabamba, it's broken into real violence. A different story, not to be told here, but black magic shamans are picking off the gringos there like snipers. Not a joke.

People are being killed, burglarized, raped. Because a handful of resistance fighter local shamans see them as just more white Conquistadores, with an arrogant, superior sense of entitlement. These local guys, just a few, but with quite a lot of power, want them all dead. They really do. It's quite an untold story.

None of this is 'racism'. None at all. It's all about cultural heritage, sovereignty, territory, respect — or the lack of it. And integration, or the lack of that. The black magic shamans believe they're freedom fighters, reclaiming their stolen land.

I don't support their extreme approach, of course — that's all karmically going to implode on them, and they really hurt people, badly (or worse) — but I actually understand how they feel.

I'm not racist, at all. I was brought up in West Africa as a young child, and since then have traveled extensively in Africa and India. I genuinely love those people. I don't care about anyone's race or skin color. That's like caring about the color of someone's car, or house.

But if I was an Ecuadorian, I would absolutely not want me here.

:)

***

@ Marique, please post the link to your rape/murder story. That might help. If it's easy to find, you should be able to dig it up no problem. Thanks. The best defense against being called a liar is always to show proof of the truth.

Thank you Bill for not asking me to leave, I know many wish I would. I am struggling with a lot of personal tragedies at the moment and I see in hindsight I should have kept my pain and struggling to myself. I have made many members here very angry and that was not my intent. I just took a chance and said how I felt and what I am struggling with, and in hindsight it was not a good idea. I did learn a lot from the responses though, and really saw why people think I am a bigot. I totally get it now. It is something that I am going to have to work through, and I appreciate you letting me stay, and I will try not to anger people any more. I will try to think things out before I share in the future, and be very careful not to hurt any one's feelings or overgeneralize or categorize people.. I realized that if I were ranting about brutal behaviors and not labeling people that I would have been far better off, a lesson I will carry forward. Dennis's test were good ones, and it opened my mind to my black and white thinking, and for that I am grateful. Below I have shared links about what I spoke of. I really should not have to prove I am not a liar or troll, but if I am to stay here, maybe this once it might be helpful. The Mainstream media never shares these types of horror stories because it does not support their agenda and their story that there is no problem with forced mixing of opposing cultures. My fears are real to me, and I am thankful that people took me to task, but wish in the future that if someone has a deep problem with me, they would have the courtesy to privately talk with me, and not take pot shots at me personally on the main board. I have always tried to be polite and nonoffensive in my dealings with members here and will hope that I will not be ostracized publicly on this forum. I feel like now I have alienated many members and that was not my intent, and I hate the feeling that I am not good enough to be a member here, and that everyone will think of me as that bigot troll. But also the experience has taught me about how many Muslims feel, and I will have more compassion for their plights as well.

http://shoebat.com/2015/10/09/muslims-force-woman-to-watch-her-nine-year-old-daughter-getting-raped-to-death/
http://freedomoutpost.com/muslims-force-woman-to-watch-her-nine-year-old-daughter-getting-raped-to-death/
http://www.14words.net/2015/11/muslim-terrorists-force-woman-to-watch.html
http://www.iol.co.za/dailynews/news/mother-forced-to-watch-daughter-being-gang-raped-1480693
https://lockerdome.com/jewsnews/9175747529071380
http://madworldnews.com/muslims-make-mother-watch/

There are more links but it is painful for me to keep digging. This was a horror that no mother should have to endure. I raised 11 sons, two I have lost to senseless brutal murders. I know the pain of losing a child (mine were grown) to violence and have them die at the hands of barbarians in war. It is not easy to deal with, the struggle is every day. I will honestly try not to let this color my thinking, but dammit, it is not easy. All I can promise is to keep my feelings to myself if that is what everyone wishes.

Hi Marique,

You have seen me be quite vocal about this subject, yet I have not before now addressed your comments here publicly. I for one do not want to see you leave or be banned. From reading your initial post here I got the strong impression of you being a nice person who is extremely and genuinely afraid. Although I don't agree with how you expressed that fear, I certainly do understand it and commiserate with you.

I wish that there was something I could say or do to change what has happened and alleviate your pain, but that is not in my power. There are many throughout the world that would like to cause us harm and inflict pain and terror. However, if you allow them to change the person that you are then they have achieved their goal.

The facts are there are groups of Radical Islamist's that we are currently at war with. There are also millions and millions of Muslims who are honest, and peaceful people. People like you and I, who's only desire is to be happy and live in peace. It's important not to group all of them together lest we insult one group while rightly criticizing the other.

I am very sorry that you have had this tragedy in your life. I hope one day you will find peace of mind.:flower::flower:

Thank you Abmaqa. I do appreciate your reply and agree wholeheartedly that I did over generalize and did not think before I spouted off. It was not kind of me, and in fact was totally stupid. I have just been struggling so much these last few years, and sometimes I get overwhelmed with all sorts of conflicted emotions, regrets and personal stuff that it has colored my actions, which I am working through, and I appreciate all the input into and spotlight on my behavior. It has actually been beneficial, I am just sorry for being offensive.

[Helene West]

I hit the thanks button on Mr. Leahy's message only because he chose to do the right thing and take leave. His apology doesn't mean much to me as once you put a slanderous label on someone that's it, damage done.

I considered reapplying to the forum and obtain a different user name because of his targeting, which I know I wouldn't have been the first or last to do so, but his was such a common reaction to dealing with perceptions that conflict with his own and though I was bothered by his targeting but was neither 'shamed' as he flatters himself to have caused, nor bothered to that great extent, I decided to not get another user name.

Unfortunately one cannot put a mod on Ignore. As I'm as passionate in my views as he is in his, his mind-set was only going to steer him in the next inevitability - censorship.
There are cultural trends taking place in our society that are not palatable to say the least and I write my interpretations without vulgarities and without naming other board members. If I were to be censored it would be a reflection of qualities that run counter to the creation of the forum, not a reflection of wrongdoing on my part. And life goes on....



Really?? Perhaps you need reminding of this post of yours? .....

I wish you peace, love and happiness as you travel and navigate your way through life.

Above is the first and last sentence of your post. Are you familiar with the term "passive aggressive"?
I'll put your well wishes for me in the same file as mr. L's 'apology'. Ciao

Hi Helene

Sorry to make you uncomfortable with my observations. However, refusing to address the facts of your false statement and hypocrisy, only amplifies the issues. Perhaps you should consider using well-reasoned arguments rather than ad hominem attacks??

If you think I am wrong, then its sensible that you should state why. Identifying errors in reasoning is quite appropriate. Ad hominem attacks are not.

Wish you the best!:heart:

Below is the rest of my post.


http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1150725

Oh, quit flattering yourself. You are the one that declared somewhere above that you wanted nothing to do with me, I wasn't a nice person this and that, remember? So why can't you stick to your guns? you can't because in my opinion you're so bloody hostile but you think no one sees through it because of your coating of syrupy sweet well wishing bs that you attach to it.

So since you can't leave it alone I'll go one more time. You seem to admire these Intel disinformation agents (posing as teachers) that are now sprinkled throughout our university system teaching Whiteness = Badness. You seem to admire them and then want me to insult myself by getting sucked into their racist minutiae that they are indoctrinating our young people with. I see an effort to make disparaging my race, trivializing our lives, encouraging demeaning and possibly violence against us - to make it - Normal. We're supposed to accept this trend as normal or justified. I believe these are paid Intel agents. I believe it is part of the cultural genocide of my race by the elites of my race as part of a larger plan. That is my belief. You don't have to share it.

Once I saw what you valued I stopped caring what you have to say. I never addressed you personally after that. You said you wouldn't address me. But here you are back trying to bait me. In 'real life' I wouldn't voluntarily engage with someone like you so why should I do it here in virtual life? I think it's better for the forum if someone makes it clear they don't want to engage with a particular person stop keeping it up - it's like stalking.

I've asked two members who work for the forum a question regarding the Ignore button but so far no one knows the answer - I had asked if I put someone on Ignore will they get a message stating that if they were to reply to a post of mine. I know I will get a message saying so and so's message is hidden because they are on my Ignore List but will they be advised that they are on Ignore if they reply to my post? If anyone knows the answer I'd appreciate either PM'ing me or stating so. Small point but just curious on the technical.

[AutumnW]

Marique,

Turiya has provided a link to a site called Mad World. It appears to be a pretty shoddy propaganda rag. He has linked to a story on that site about a nine year old girl being raped and her mother being forced to watch.

I want to make a couple of statements here. I think you should heed what I am saying very carefully. This rape story represents a war atrocity. These kinds of acts are NOT part of the Islamic day to day reality.

Muslim women, as Flash has taken pains to point out, are not treated as equals. This is part of a medieval world view that will change over time. It sucks for now, but then we have Miley Cyrus and porn, as Flash also points out. Our society could and should be held up for scorn, on these 'merits'.

You have come to this thread, and in my opinion, come with a story you took directly from a scandal sheet style website and made it your own.

You have helped whip up an unnecessary sh** storm here among members who really are struggling to understand.

You have everybody (almost) apologizing to you now and to my mind YOU are the one who should be just as apologetic. Your statements should be carefully vetted for authenticity.

[marique3652]

Autumn, it is your option to believe or not believe me and I honor that. I have been here as long as you have and have managed to not offend anyone up to this point, but I have really done it this time. I do agree that war atrocities do happen with any war with any participants. I overgeneralized in my fearful state and for that I am sorry. Perhaps you have not read my comments where I have repeatedly apologized for my comments, there is no more that I can do. If you wish to not comment or believe anything that I share, it is certainly your option. I wish you an awesome day, and thank you for your comments. You have passed judgment on the quality of my character and have publicly insulted me and made up your mind I am a shill so that is that. It must make you feel very good passing judgment on me, showing your moral superiority over me. I commend you. It has helped me to understand how wrong it was for me to pass judgment on a whole group of people with an ideological background so foreign and frightening to me. Point taken. There is nothing I can say or do to change your opinion so I am not going to try. I can guarantee that I will never call another member a liar and a shill, I don't think it is kind. I have said I am sorry and that is all I can do.

[abmqa]

I hit the thanks button on Mr. Leahy's message only because he chose to do the right thing and take leave. His apology doesn't mean much to me as once you put a slanderous label on someone that's it, damage done.

I considered reapplying to the forum and obtain a different user name because of his targeting, which I know I wouldn't have been the first or last to do so, but his was such a common reaction to dealing with perceptions that conflict with his own and though I was bothered by his targeting but was neither 'shamed' as he flatters himself to have caused, nor bothered to that great extent, I decided to not get another user name.

Unfortunately one cannot put a mod on Ignore. As I'm as passionate in my views as he is in his, his mind-set was only going to steer him in the next inevitability - censorship.
There are cultural trends taking place in our society that are not palatable to say the least and I write my interpretations without vulgarities and without naming other board members. If I were to be censored it would be a reflection of qualities that run counter to the creation of the forum, not a reflection of wrongdoing on my part. And life goes on....



Really?? Perhaps you need reminding of this post of yours? .....

I wish you peace, love and happiness as you travel and navigate your way through life.

Above is the first and last sentence of your post. Are you familiar with the term "passive aggressive"?
I'll put your well wishes for me in the same file as mr. L's 'apology'. Ciao

Hi Helene

Sorry to make you uncomfortable with my observations. However, refusing to address the facts of your false statement and hypocrisy, only amplifies the issues. Perhaps you should consider using well-reasoned arguments rather than ad hominem attacks??

If you think I am wrong, then its sensible that you should state why. Identifying errors in reasoning is quite appropriate. Ad hominem attacks are not.

Wish you the best!:heart:

Below is the rest of my post.


http://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1150725

Oh, quit flattering yourself. You are the one that declared somewhere above that you wanted nothing to do with me, I wasn't a nice person this and that, remember? So why can't you stick to your guns? you can't because in my opinion you're so bloody hostile but you think no one sees through it because of your coating of syrupy sweet well wishing bs that you attach to it.

So since you can't leave it alone I'll go one more time. You seem to admire these Intel disinformation agents (posing as teachers) that are now sprinkled throughout our university system teaching Whiteness = Badness. You seem to admire them and then want me to insult myself by getting sucked into their racist minutiae that they are indoctrinating our young people with. I see an effort to make disparaging my race, trivializing our lives, encouraging demeaning and possibly violence against us - to make it - Normal. We're supposed to accept this trend as normal or justified. I believe these are paid Intel agents. I believe it is part of the cultural genocide of my race by the elites of my race as part of a larger plan. That is my belief. You don't have to share it.

Once I saw what you valued I stopped caring what you have to say. I never addressed you personally after that. You said you wouldn't address me. But here you are back trying to bait me. In 'real life' I wouldn't voluntarily engage with someone like you so why should I do it here in virtual life? I think it's better for the forum if someone makes it clear they don't want to engage with a particular person stop keeping it up - it's like stalking.

I've asked two members who work for the forum a question regarding the Ignore button but so far no one knows the answer - I had asked if I put someone on Ignore will they get a message stating that if they were to reply to a post of mine. I know I will get a message saying so and so's message is hidden because they are on my Ignore List but will they be advised that they are on Ignore if they reply to my post? If anyone knows the answer I'd appreciate either PM'ing me or stating so. Small point but just curious on the technical.

You accuse me of being hostile? This is just more hypocrisy and ad hominem attacks?

Your own words condemn you. Instead of being angry at me. Perhaps you should try explaining the hypocrisy and falsehood that you have clearly shown in your reply to Dennis Leahy as he tried to apologize to you.

Just because we disagree doesn't entitle you or I to be discourteous to one another.

I'm not hostile to you, however you have opinions about immigration, race and bigotry that I clearly do not agree with. Although I have invited you several times to debate me on the issues.

As of yet, you have not once debated the issues, you continue to personalize and avoid the issues.

Trust me if I were to be hostile towards you, you certainly would not have to state it. It would be overwhelmingly evident. Since you did not accurately perceive the message in my previous post I will state it for you once again.

If you think I am wrong, then its sensible that you should state why. Identifying errors in reasoning is quite appropriate. Ad hominem attacks are not.

Best wishes and peace

[AutumnW]

Well done, Marique! Now explain why you personalized a story that appeared online? That is flat out dishonesty and you are dancing all around it while appealing to 'higher values' and the sympathy of onlookers.

[TargeT]

Well done, Marique! Now explain why you personalized a story that appeared online? That is flat out dishonesty and you are dancing all around it while appealing to 'higher values' and the sympathy of onlookers.


Can you explain that more?

are you saying her sons didn't die?

I'm certain the vibe I'm getting from your posts isn't accurate......... or maybe I hope I am.

Anyway, lets get it closer to topic eh?




The issues are often cultural. Not always 'racial'. I'm certain of that.

I would phrase that differently.

Issues are (even racism) cultural; our environment is extremely influential (both mental and physical)... Racism is a thought construct, it is something that has to be fed mental energy to exist and it's based on our base human programming in a twisted way but is not a natural phenomenon.

Understanding this is important because it starts us on the path to correcting the issue, not just writing people off as "racist".


the locals are gradually, slowly, becoming fearful of the future, and resentful of the invaders which they, personally, never invited. They feel they have no control.

This is the case where I live as well, tourists are targeted for crime because the local culture sees them as invaders and it's more acceptable to "steal" or "take advantage" of them because of it....

A lot of the (white) locals have fallen into the "everything's racist trap"... I hear stories about DWW (driving while white), and a lot of other descriptions I've heard before (but not with "white" mixed in). And with those comments lead to "anger" based responses, not understanding of the actual situation. I imagine this influences the social interactions with the native population, which gives both parties a bad interaction which can feed right back into the "racist" meme.




It's all about cultural heritage, sovereignty, territory, respect — or the lack of it. And integration, or the lack of that.

This is the crux of it in my mind, what it all comes down to, and the burden is on the outsider (in my mind).







I believe Bill is 100% correct that these issues are cultural and not about race.

And in saying that, we are still acknowledging there is an issue there.. but clarity is very important "racist" is a crappy, lazy-thinking, shortcut label that lends nothing to assist the issues at hand. That label does not lead to useful thought patterns.





I can think of no better way to ensure permanent strife and chaos than to force different cultures into close proximity and then constantly report every negative world event emphasising race, religion of culture at every opportunity.

pushing the divide further and further, exactly.

[Innocent Warrior]

Deep breaths! You have the option of private message if you wish to continue personal discussions.

:focus:

[abmqa]

Well done, Marique! Now explain why you personalized a story that appeared online? That is flat out dishonesty and you are dancing all around it while appealing to 'higher values' and the sympathy of onlookers.

Hi Autumn,

I've seen Marique apologize several times for her remarks. Whatever the reasons for them IMO is now moot. IMO, she has demonstrated strong morals and courage to have apologized in the manner that she has. Now is the time for all of us to support her as she continues to deal with the tragedies in her life.

Best regards

[Chester]

Marique,

Turiya has provided a link to a site called Mad World. It appears to be a pretty shoddy propaganda rag. He has linked to a story on that site about a nine year old girl being raped and her mother being forced to watch.

I want to make a couple of statements here. I think you should heed what I am saying very carefully. This rape story represents a war atrocity. These kinds of acts are NOT part of the Islamic day to day reality.

Muslim women, as Flash has taken pains to point out, are not treated as equals. This is part of a medieval world view that will change over time. It sucks for now, but then we have Miley Cyrus and porn, as Flash also points out. Our society could and should be held up for scorn, on these 'merits'.

You have come to this thread, and in my opinion, come with a story you took directly from a scandal sheet style website and made it your own.

You have helped whip up an unnecessary sh** storm here among members who really are struggling to understand.

You have everybody (almost) apologizing to you now and to my mind YOU are the one who should be just as apologetic. Your statements should be carefully vetted for authenticity.

and also -


Well done, Marique! Now explain why you personalized a story that appeared online? That is flat out dishonesty and you are dancing all around it while appealing to 'higher values' and the sympathy of onlookers.

For one, I was under the impression (and I hold the belief) that Marique had formed a relationship with this individual) - there is nothing that Marique misrepresented.

I sense some naivity here. If the act occurred in the heat of war, it is still no less horrific. If the act is deemed justified by the perpetrator based on their ethnic identification that includes their religious identification where they conclude that their "God" or "religion" or "law" not only gives them the right to perform this sort of act but actually encourages it (and NO.... I am not saying that is the case with Islam as I do not know that BUT what I am saying is that this is what has been reported and thus needs further investigation...certainly a deeper look like we strive to do here on this forum)...

...and so, if there is any truth to this then what is quite commonly known is that there are indeed examples of extremist sects that arise within various cultures, which may coincidentally be represented by a majority ethnicity and/or a majority religious affiliation and where what is also very widely known (see a post I did recently covering recent terrorist attacks) where the spin masters try and point the finger at the ethnicity or religion (or any other groupification factor) in two different ways - one is to create angers at a group so that anyone in that group is automatically vilified (and which too many folks fall for) and two, where the PC police types then go after "those folks" who have done this which by default makes just another group where it is my most firm opinion all these folks have fallen into the trap where my only question is... is this just humans being human, is this humans because of their human vulnerabilities being exploited for these vulnerabilities by witting, motivated third parties or both.

No matter what "side" we might "feel" we should be on... when are we going to see that by allowing the emotions that arise from falling into this trap to prevent us from discussing these things so we can identify what's behind it all instead of simply deciding our position (where when we step back and see that either one is simply playing "their game") is right and thus the alternative position is wrong and that we are therefore "good" and the opposition is only "bad."


No one commented on my post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?97318-Trump-Illegal-immigration-Sam-s-view&p=1150257&viewfull=1#post1150257) where I identified that 85 ish percent of worldwide terrorist attacks over a short period of time were related to Jihad. And why? I bet I can guess why... is because perhaps everyone who read that either felt their finger pointing at "Islam" was justified or that the suggestion I might be making was that "here's another finger pointer that tries to make "Islam" the bad guy" and neither are why I posted that.

Why I posted that is because we need to see how things happen over long stretches of time where, in our own short lives, appear to be the cause when actually... they are only the latest tool, the latest opportunity, the latest pathway to doing what has been done as far back as our known (at the general public level) written history and that is... we, humans, have allowed exploitation of a stage of our human growth where our control of our emotions is unable to keep pace with the information processing and we all suffer from failure to recognize this. Ewan's post here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?97318-Trump-Illegal-immigration-Sam-s-view&p=1151014&viewfull=1#post1151014) touched on this but my concern was that the post suggested elimination of emotion from the human life stream as the solution... and my concern is that this is an extreme measure. Why not get on top of our emotions yet refrain from eliminating what may actually be the key component in manifestation of our reality experience?

(my response to Ewan's post here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?97318-Trump-Illegal-immigration-Sam-s-view&p=1151225&viewfull=1#post1151225))

That is what's going on here... it isn't Islam, and/or Jihad (as interpreted by some extremists), it isn't "Mexicans" who are so morally bankrupt they flood the land of illusion known as America, the land of Opportunity while having relatives and friends who have fallen into the cartel world which reaches quite far and wide and on and on I could go with current examples which are blindfolds to the actual truth.

I had hoped that this thread could get to the heart of one particular matter which is a wonderful microcosmic example of the grand macrocosmic problem where... there is a solution to this one microcosmic example, the current US Immigration problem... and no one has the guts to come out with it... and sadly, I cannot seem to find anyone here who has the wherewithal to actually explore it.

We cannot use the excuse that "the subject is too emotional" because we created it... we all have played a role in creating it or supporting it and this applies most certainly and most specifically to the folks here in the US and then surrounding countries, but also... to all folks worldwide. When are we going to deal with it?

[AutumnW]

Rachel, I will continue this offline. Thank you. I stand by my comments.

[TargeT]

Rachel, I will continue this offline. Thank you. I stand by my comments.

your need to continue to make this public should be giving you a hint as to the source of this feeling....

[AutumnW]

Target, I will respond offline in a private post.

[Sierra]

Marique,

I admire you, truly. You listened, you heard, you understood, you apologized for coming off racist, and explained why you did so.

Kudos. :thumbsup:

Thank you. :heart:

[AutumnW]

I guess, bottom line, I feel that we are far more of a threat to Islamic people, both here and abroad than vice versa. I am very sensitive to dishonesty used to support a point of view, in an emotionally volatile atmosphere. Witch hunt dynamics, fuelled by ratcheting, sensational stories worry me. People who are super scared worry me. They remind me of ldogs who are fear biters.

If I jumped the gun with you, Marique, I apologize. Perhaps your story mirroring something in tabloid media is pure coincidence.

[AutumnW]

Marique,

Turiya has provided a link to a site called Mad World. It appears to be a pretty shoddy propaganda rag. He has linked to a story on that site about a nine year old girl being raped and her mother being forced to watch.

I want to make a couple of statements here. I think you should heed what I am saying very carefully. This rape story represents a war atrocity. These kinds of acts are NOT part of the Islamic day to day reality.

Muslim women, as Flash has taken pains to point out, are not treated as equals. This is part of a medieval world view that will change over time. It sucks for now, but then we have Miley Cyrus and porn, as Flash also points out. Our society could and should be held up for scorn, on these 'merits'.

You have come to this thread, and in my opinion, come with a story you took directly from a scandal sheet style website and made it your own.

You have helped whip up an unnecessary sh** storm here among members who really are struggling to understand.

You have everybody (almost) apologizing to you now and to my mind YOU are the one who should be just as apologetic. Your statements should be carefully vetted for authenticity.

and also -


Well done, Marique! Now explain why you personalized a story that appeared online? That is flat out dishonesty and you are dancing all around it while appealing to 'higher values' and the sympathy of onlookers.

For one, I was under the impression (and I hold the belief) that Marique had formed a relationship with this individual) - there is nothing that Marique misrepresented.

I sense some naivity here. If the act occurred in the heat of war, it is still no less horrific. If the act is deemed justified by the perpetrator based on their ethnic identification that includes their religious identification where they conclude that their "God" or "religion" or "law" not only gives them the right to perform this sort of act but actually encourages it (and NO.... I am not saying that is the case with Islam as I do not know that BUT what I am saying is that this is what has been reported and thus needs further investigation...certainly a deeper look like we strive to do here on this forum)...

...and so, if there is any truth to this then what is quite commonly known is that there are indeed examples of extremist sects that arise within various cultures, which may coincidentally be represented by a majority ethnicity and/or a majority religious affiliation and where what is also very widely known (see a post I did recently covering recent terrorist attacks) where the spin masters try and point the finger at the ethnicity or religion (or any other groupification factor) in two different ways - one is to create angers at a group so that anyone in that group is automatically vilified (and which too many folks fall for) and two, where the PC police types then go after "those folks" who have done this which by default makes just another group where it is my most firm opinion all these folks have fallen into the trap where my only question is... is this just humans being human, is this humans because of their human vulnerabilities being exploited for these vulnerabilities by witting, motivated third parties or both.

No matter what "side" we might "feel" we should be on... when are we going to see that by allowing the emotions that arise from falling into this trap to prevent us from discussing these things so we can identify what's behind it all instead of simply deciding our position (where when we step back and see that either one is simply playing "their game") is right and thus the alternative position is wrong and that we are therefore "good" and the opposition is only "bad."


No one commented on my post (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?97318-Trump-Illegal-immigration-Sam-s-view&p=1150257&viewfull=1#post1150257) where I identified that 85 ish percent of worldwide terrorist attacks over a short period of time were related to Jihad. And why? I bet I can guess why... is because perhaps everyone who read that either felt their finger pointing at "Islam" was justified or that the suggestion I might be making was that "here's another finger pointer that tries to make "Islam" the bad guy" and neither are why I posted that.

Why I posted that is because we need to see how things happen over long stretches of time where, in our own short lives, appear to be the cause when actually... they are only the latest tool, the latest opportunity, the latest pathway to doing what has been done as far back as our known (at the general public level) written history and that is... we, humans, have allowed exploitation of a stage of our human growth where our control of our emotions is unable to keep pace with the information processing and we all suffer from failure to recognize this. Ewan's post here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?97318-Trump-Illegal-immigration-Sam-s-view&p=1151014&viewfull=1#post1151014) touched on this but my concern was that the post suggested elimination of emotion from the human life stream as the solution... and my concern is that this is an extreme measure. Why not get on top of our emotions yet refrain from eliminating what may actually be the key component in manifestation of our reality experience?

(my response to Ewan's post here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?97318-Trump-Illegal-immigration-Sam-s-view&p=1151225&viewfull=1#post1151225))

That is what's going on here... it isn't Islam, and/or Jihad (as interpreted by some extremists), it isn't "Mexicans" who are so morally bankrupt they flood the land of illusion known as America, the land of Opportunity while having relatives and friends who have fallen into the cartel world which reaches quite far and wide and on and on I could go with current examples which are blindfolds to the actual truth.

I had hoped that this thread could get to the heart of one particular matter which is a wonderful microcosmic example of the grand macrocosmic problem where... there is a solution to this one microcosmic example, the current US Immigration problem... and no one has the guts to come out with it... and sadly, I cannot seem to find anyone here who has the wherewithal to actually explore it.

We cannot use the excuse that "the subject is too emotional" because we created it... we all have played a role in creating it or supporting it and this applies most certainly and most specifically to the folks here in the US and then surrounding countries, but also... to all folks worldwide. When are we going to deal with it?

Hi Sam, I am not ignoring you, just having trouble reading your post because it isn't broken up into smaller paragraphs. I don't know why this is, but I find it almost impossible!

[Billy]

Before I retire for tonight. This thread has been brought to the attention of the mods. Emotions are heightened, I think this topic is an important debate, but finding a solution is difficult.

Can I make a suggestion ?
If we give to much attention to what separates us, we forget to recognise the beauty within us all. :blackwidow:

Night night, Sleep tight :heart:

[turiya]

Oh, but wait... First, a bedtime story, Billy...


Top Ten Quran Verses for
Understanding ISIS (the Islamic State)
(Published on Sep 7, 2014)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXBgqa-xQwY

[Whiskey_Mystic]

Muslim women, as Flash has taken pains to point out, are not treated as equals. This is part of a medieval world view that will change over time.


I wish to point out for context that Islamic civilization is not alone in this. Catholicism, Judaism, and Buddhism have only made progress on this recently. And they have more progress yet to make. Yes, there are degrees of inequality, but on a civilization-level analysis, we might be more productive if we avoid judgmentalism while we work towards solutions.

[turiya]

Quran Verses that Every Woman should know....


Three Quran Verses Every Woman Should Know
(David Wood)
(Published on May 4, 2016)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NXtIUv5i2w

[Chester]

Hi Sam, I am not ignoring you, just having trouble reading your post because it isn't broken up into smaller paragraphs. I don't know why this is, but I find it almost impossible!

My problem is that sometimes my sentences, alone, are monsters in and of themselves.

Anyways... the last thing I hoped would occur is what seems to have happened more than once in this thread. I am just too... too "idealistic" to think... I guess to think that we could explore solutions which would perhaps also include identifying attitudes within ourselves which, if we can see we are expressing those attitudes in ways that only throw gas on the fire, we might instead see that each of us might look deeper not just within but with regards to the games we allow ourselves to play/get sucked into... Maybe the thread should just get closed. I won't mind what call is made but I will be sad and thus regret we couldn't do better.

[Tangri]

Before I retire for tonight. This thread has been brought to the attention of the mods. Emotions are heightened, I think this topic is an important debate, but finding a solution is difficult.

Can I make a suggestion ?
If we give to much attention to what separates us, we forget to recognise the beauty within us all. :blackwidow:

Night night, Sleep tight :heart:


"but finding a solution is difficult."

Actually it is not that difficult.
First
Fact -check; the title of the thread Trump - Illegal immigration.

Facts;
There were 11 million unauthorized immigrants in the U.S. in 2015, a small but statistically significant decline from the Center’s estimate of 11.3 million for 2009.

The Center’s preliminary estimate of the unauthorized immigrant population in 2016 is 11.3 million, which is statistically no different from the 2009 or 2015 estimates because it is based on a data source with a smaller sample size and larger margin of error. Unauthorized immigrants represented 3.4% of the total U.S. population in 2015. The number of unauthorized immigrants peaked in 2007 at 12.2 million, when this group was 4% of the U.S. population.

Mexicans made up half of all unauthorized immigrants in 2016, according to the Center’s preliminary estimate, marking the first time in at least a decade that they did not account for a clear majority of this population. Their numbers (and share of the total) have been declining in recent years: There were 5.6 million Mexican unauthorized immigrants living in the U.S. in 2015 and 2016, down from 6.4 million in 2009.

Trump's concern is Hispanic migration to the American soil ( Six states account for 59% of unauthorized immigrants: California, Texas, Florida, New York, New Jersey and Illinois) They come and make 10-11 children which those automatically become 1st generation Americans.

Some people are trying hard to pull this fact to the religious war. I can understand Hispanic people's pain which comes with their parent's sufferings but they pursued maintaining stay away from the fact and targeting legal immigrants of different religious. Am I the only one, seeing this discrepancy? Insisting on this, goes to diagnosed deliberate ignorance

Seeing this, can help to find a solution.

I don't want to show links to prove Hispanic people's suffering from drug- gun lords or economical needs which force them into migrate to another country and building new crime gangs at the new placement. Every body suffers when they moved to live in another country. I do not hate all Americans soldiers whom some of them killed 1 million afghans, several millions at Iraq , Libya, Syria and force them to be relocated at different countries. I do not want to talk about my evil Hispanic business partner's evil doings.
Because my pain (my personal bad experiences- memories)is not related to the illegal immigration, generalization does not relief my pain and I do not perform it.

[marique3652]

Marique,

I admire you, truly. You listened, you heard, you understood, you apologized for coming off racist, and explained why you did so.

Kudos. :thumbsup:

Thank you. :heart:

Thank you Sierra for your kindness.

[Ewan]

Why I posted that is because we need to see how things happen over long stretches of time where, in our own short lives, appear to be the cause when actually... they are only the latest tool, the latest opportunity, the latest pathway to doing what has been done as far back as our known (at the general public level) written history and that is... we, humans, have allowed exploitation of a stage of our human growth where our control of our emotions is unable to keep pace with the information processing and we all suffer from failure to recognize this. Ewan's post here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?97318-Trump-Illegal-immigration-Sam-s-view&p=1151014&viewfull=1#post1151014) touched on this but my concern was that the post suggested elimination of emotion from the human life stream as the solution... and my concern is that this is an extreme measure. Why not get on top of our emotions yet refrain from eliminating what may actually be the key component in manifestation of our reality experience?

(my response to Ewan's post here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?97318-Trump-Illegal-immigration-Sam-s-view&p=1151225&viewfull=1#post1151225))

That is what's going on here... it isn't Islam, and/or Jihad (as interpreted by some extremists), it isn't "Mexicans" who are so morally bankrupt they flood the land of illusion known as America, the land of Opportunity while having relatives and friends who have fallen into the cartel world which reaches quite far and wide and on and on I could go with current examples which are blindfolds to the actual truth.

I had hoped that this thread could get to the heart of one particular matter which is a wonderful microcosmic example of the grand macrocosmic problem where... there is a solution to this one microcosmic example, the current US Immigration problem... and no one has the guts to come out with it... and sadly, I cannot seem to find anyone here who has the wherewithal to actually explore it.

We cannot use the excuse that "the subject is too emotional" because we created it... we all have played a role in creating it or supporting it and this applies most certainly and most specifically to the folks here in the US and then surrounding countries, but also... to all folks worldwide. When are we going to deal with it?

Definitely not Sam, my intention had been to show that the Vulcans went too far and destroyed what could have proved a valuable ally. On the other hand Humans had no ally either because as often as not the 'horses' broke free and did as they pleased - leaving the human with a bit of a mess to sort out.

[Flash]

Listen to this Christian witness

She is 100% right, not exagerating at all, none - she is truthful and explains very well what Islam aims are and how they proceed. THIS IS WHAT IT IS, NO EXAGERATION.

she gives you the history of Islam and Mohammed, which is what is written and what is followed by ISIS and others.

She is right, lots of countries in the Middle East where Christian 60 years ago and are now Muslim, namely Lebanon, Syria (was half Christian, they are all being killed and raped right now), Egypt much more (now 10 millions christians, they were half the population previously), etc.

I am white, blond and a target - I have been told by Arabs here in Canada, that they would marry us, rape us, to make sure we do not have white christian babies but Muslim ones, and they would marry their 4 wifes to make sure they make children and overwhelm us given time. Some are open about it and spit it in our face openly (like the man in the food store who told everyone is was allowed 4 women and would just do it, despite our laws).

This is literally happening in France Marseille, a large city in southern France is now Muslim, Paris is going towards it within 20 years,

WHAT DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND, CHRISTIANS AND JEWS

My problem is not the religion itself, they could be Buddhist or whatever, the problem is the belief system and the crusade (jihad) and violence that comes with it. This is a very regressive and restrictive religion.

They were chased away from Austria a century ago and had conquest all of Eastern Europe, and were pushed back. The lesson, we invade from the inside by migrating and making children and imposing our beliefs.

Europ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EbC4fowprY

Whatever they say has a double meaning - always, they are allowed to lie for jihad and it is part of the religious culture.

Some good Muslim explained it all to me (in My city, there is many Muslims), they told me never to trust.

[Chester]

Ewan's post here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?97318-Trump-Illegal-immigration-Sam-s-view&p=1151014&viewfull=1#post1151014) touched on this but my concern was that the post suggested elimination of emotion from the human life stream as the solution... and my concern is that this is an extreme measure. Why not get on top of our emotions yet refrain from eliminating what may actually be the key component in manifestation of our reality experience?

(my response to Ewan's post here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?97318-Trump-Illegal-immigration-Sam-s-view&p=1151225&viewfull=1#post1151225))


Definitely not Sam, my intention had been to show that the Vulcans went too far and destroyed what could have proved a valuable ally. On the other hand Humans had no ally either because as often as not the 'horses' broke free and did as they pleased - leaving the human with a bit of a mess to sort out.

Hi Ewan, true apologies for my misinterpretation of the intent of that post of yours.

I went back and read it a few times. I have become keenly aware that just as much as folks might say something they mean and then later may back off, that a reader can just as easily read something with a preconditioned bias where they interpret a communication to mean something significantly differently than what was meant by the communicator.

Again, if this is the case here and you are saying it is, I truly apologize.

Also, note that I responded to that post in depth just a few posts later which revealed my interpretation, but I have to assume that you missed this or that you maybe had no response or desire to respond. So this was perhaps another error of mine to interpret that to support my original interpretation further.

This is another example of how writing, especially on a forum, as a sole means for communication, can often fail in its goal to communicate.


Soooo... if what you were saying and/or suggesting is that, in general, humans need to get far, far better at managing their emotions... yet that emotions should not be atrophied, then we are in complete agreement. Last and third time - apologies.

[turiya]

Listen to this Christian witness

She is 100% right, not exagerating at all, none - she is truthful and explains very well what Islam aims are and how they proceed. THIS IS WHAT IT IS, NO EXAGERATION.

she gives you the history of Islam and Mohammed, which is what is written and what is followed by ISIS and others.

She is right, lots of countries in the Middle East where Christian 60 years ago and are now Muslim, namely Lebanon, Syria (was half Christian, they are all being killed and raped right now), Egypt much more (now 10 millions christians, they were half the population previously), etc.

I am white, blond and a target - I have been told by Arabs here in Canada, that they would marry us, rape us, to make sure we do not have white christian babies but Muslim ones, and they would marry their 4 wifes to make sure they make children and overwhelm us given time. Some are open about it and spit it in our face openly (like the man in the food store who told everyone is was allowed 4 women and would just do it, despite our laws).

This is literally happening in France Marseille, a large city in southern France is now Muslim, Paris is going towards it within 20 years,

WHAT DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND, CHRISTIANS AND JEWS

My problem is not the religion itself, they could be Buddhist or whatever, the problem is the belief system and the crusade (jihad) and violence that comes with it. This is a very regressive and restrictive religion.

They were chased away from Austria a century ago and had conquest all of Eastern Europe, and were pushed back. The lesson, we invade from the inside by migrating and making children and imposing our beliefs.

Europ



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EbC4fowprY

Whatever they say has a double meaning - always, they are allowed to lie for jihad and it is part of the religious culture.

Some good Muslim explained it all to me (in My city, there is many Muslims), they told me never to trust.

Thanks Flash, for posting this. I see you picked this up from my "off topic" thread "The Turiya File". (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?46901-The-turiya-file&p=1152815&viewfull=1#post1152815). I uploaded it to youtube late yesterday. I was planning on posting it here on this thread, but thought it would be better to wait a bit, until the heat of the thread cooled down some. It's also probably better that someone else posted this video, as some may not think it appropriate for me to keep on posting so much of what Islam is truly all about.

Again, thanks for taking the lead on this one...

Scholar David Wood also has many videos whereupon he brings out much of what the so-called Islamic faith holds to be true. Here's one where he explains about the practice of circumcision - cutting of the genitalia both for men & women... not a pleasant topic, but still better to come to grips with the reality of it, than not...


Linda Sarsour Caught Lying about
Female Genital Mutilation in Islam
(Published on Apr 25, 2017)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qle_4qiH4tU

[Hervé]

Here is a Saker's introduction to an article he published a while back and I recommend reading as it is very comprehensive and accurate:

After the Prophet (http://thesaker.is/after-the-prophet/)


Foreword by the Saker: It is a real pleasure for me to submit to you a most interesting article about the history of Islam in general, and about a form of Sunni Islam in Saudi Arabia which is rarely discussed or even mentioned. Being a Christian myself, I take no position on any of the view presented in this article other than welcoming an informed discussion. What I am absolutely sure of, however, is that the AngloZionists are deliberately trying to create a “clash of civilizations” and that they are trying to present Islam as a monolithic threat to “the western world”, the “Christian West”, “freedom and democracy”, etc. etc. etc. Oh sure, there is a very real threat out there: the type of Wahabi Takfirism which Daesh embodies nowadays. But Daesh is, first and foremost, a mortal threat to all other forms of Islam and this is why treating all of Islam as a monolithic threat is just about the dumbest thing we – westerners or Christians – could do. Intelligent choices can only come from a good understanding of the nature of the reality surrounding us. This is why understanding Islam as much as we can ought to be a goal for each one of us. I am deeply grateful to Hamza Haidar for allowing us a glimpsed into a world that most of us know little about.
The Saker

Full article here: http://thesaker.is/after-the-prophet/

============================================

I also posted another article (here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?89230-When-Vested-Interests-Take-Education-over...)) which documents that the most widely published and available version of the Quran is the one financed by Saudi Arabia's Wahhabis.

Another brew which came out of that general geographic area concerns that "'Old' Testament" which is now being demonstrated as having been concocted out of a plan designed by Plato (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?86384-Here-The-So-called-Word-Of-God&p=1131232&viewfull=1#post1131232)... so much for the "'Word' of God"... which "Plan" Constantine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great) followed the blue print of, to a T.

[Ewan]

Soooo... if what you were saying and/or suggesting is that, in general, humans need to get far, far better at managing their emotions... yet that emotions should not be atrophied, then we are in complete agreement. Last and third time - apologies.


We are in complete agreement Sam.

I suspect that without emotion you would be unable to experience empathy, so it is a very important human attribute. Conversely if emotion overpowers us as individuals then reason and logic are abandoned, frequently bringing out the worst of us.

[turiya]

From the article, After the Prophet (http://thesaker.is/after-the-prophet/) by Hamza Haidar:

Hamza Haidar wrote:

...I started researching what happened after the Prophet departed from this world. I came to the conclusion, which to me seemed as clear as the sun, that the Muslim world and the organized Religion must have been hijacked after the Prophet.


The title of the article, After the Prophet, is the lead into the problem... Because this happens with all the so-called "established" religions.

All these so-called 'religions' have been hijacked - All of them! It always happens after the 'enlightened' individual has departed from the scene of this world. Then come in all the opportunists - the priests, imams, popes, the scholars, the intellectuals, the controllers - those that want to control other people, etc., etc., - and they hijack what the enlightened ones have left behind. And, all that is left behind are the words that have been recorded by the unenlightened followers who then confiscate whatever they possibly can.

The religion is alive when the enlightened individual is alive, speaking - drawing & attracting others that desire to be around this individual. The religion dies when the enlightened individual dies. Then it is picked up by the vulture opportunists and turn it into a so-called "established" religion... To which then it becomes a "for profit" business (pun not intended), and a useful tool used for political means.



Here is a Saker's introduction to an article he published a while back and I recommend reading as it is very comprehensive and accurate:

After the Prophet (http://thesaker.is/after-the-prophet/)


Foreword by the Saker: It is a real pleasure for me to submit to you a most interesting article about the history of Islam in general, and about a form of Sunni Islam in Saudi Arabia which is rarely discussed or even mentioned. Being a Christian myself, I take no position on any of the view presented in this article other than welcoming an informed discussion. What I am absolutely sure of, however, is that the AngloZionists are deliberately trying to create a “clash of civilizations” and that they are trying to present Islam as a monolithic threat to “the western world”, the “Christian West”, “freedom and democracy”, etc. etc. etc. Oh sure, there is a very real threat out there: the type of Wahabi Takfirism which Daesh embodies nowadays. But Daesh is, first and foremost, a mortal threat to all other forms of Islam and this is why treating all of Islam as a monolithic threat is just about the dumbest thing we – westerners or Christians – could do. Intelligent choices can only come from a good understanding of the nature of the reality surrounding us. This is why understanding Islam as much as we can ought to be a goal for each one of us. I am deeply grateful to Hamza Haidar for allowing us a glimpsed into a world that most of us know little about.
The Saker

Full article here: http://thesaker.is/after-the-prophet/

============================================

I also posted another article (here (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?89230-When-Vested-Interests-Take-Education-over...)) which documents that the most widely published and available version of the Quran is the one financed by Saudi Arabia's Wahhabis.

Another brew which came out of that general geographic area concerns that "'Old' Testament" which is now being demonstrated as having been concocted out of a plan designed by Plato (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?86384-Here-The-So-called-Word-Of-God&p=1131232&viewfull=1#post1131232)... so much for the "'Word' of God"... which "Plan" Constantine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great) followed the blue print of, to a T.

[Helene West]

Though I do see Islam as a very real threat to western life I agree with Saker that to see it as one large monolithic bogeyman is ridiculous as those who want us terrified of islam go out of their way to people western countries with muslims at the very same time they are frightening us. Here in the U.S. we have the Gulen school movement controversy and obama administration's quiet attempts to encourage supposed commonalities between muslims and american indians particularly for muslims to study american indian tribal governments so they also can formulate autonomy from american law. I won't even touch poor Europe, that deserves it's own thread.

But the continuing saga - create a conflict with two sides, fund both sides, create rubble from the conflict and fashion what you want from the rubble. That is the old, tired meme of our western ruling class. And that's only the main meme, they have their 'tributary' memes. Each time we think we get hip to their game we find another sophisticated twist like a hero is really a proponent or legislation we wanted passed has embedded in it hurtful legislation unbeknownst to us at the time and on and on.

[Foxie Loxie]

My question? How does one wake up an entire world that the Jesus Movement was ALSO hijacked & made into another "controlling" institution? :idea:

[AutumnW]

Though I do see Islam as a very real threat to western life I agree with Saker that to see it as one large monolithic bogeyman is ridiculous as those who want us terrified of islam go out of their way to people western countries with muslims at the very same time they are frightening us. Here in the U.S. we have the Gulen school movement controversy and obama administration's quiet attempts to encourage supposed commonalities between muslims and american indians particularly for muslims to study american indian tribal governments so they also can formulate autonomy from american law. I won't even touch poor Europe, that deserves it's own thread.

But the continuing saga - create a conflict with two sides, fund both sides, create rubble from the conflict and fashion what you want from the rubble. That is the old, tired meme of our western ruling class. And that's only the main meme, they have their 'tributary' memes. Each time we think we get hip to their game we find another sophisticated twist like a hero is really a proponent or legislation we wanted passed has embedded in it hurtful legislation unbeknownst to us at the time and on and on.

Helene, I would like to see reliable supporting links to the supposed effort of the government to encourage Muslims to form autonomous legal entities. This strikes me as a misinterpretation, or bogus info.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


My question? How does one wake up an entire world that the Jesus Movement was ALSO hijacked & made into another "controlling" institution? :idea:

No kidding!

[Helene West]

Though I do see Islam as a very real threat to western life I agree with Saker that to see it as one large monolithic bogeyman is ridiculous as those who want us terrified of islam go out of their way to people western countries with muslims at the very same time they are frightening us. Here in the U.S. we have the Gulen school movement controversy and obama administration's quiet attempts to encourage supposed commonalities between muslims and american indians particularly for muslims to study american indian tribal governments so they also can formulate autonomy from american law. I won't even touch poor Europe, that deserves it's own thread.

But the continuing saga - create a conflict with two sides, fund both sides, create rubble from the conflict and fashion what you want from the rubble. That is the old, tired meme of our western ruling class. And that's only the main meme, they have their 'tributary' memes. Each time we think we get hip to their game we find another sophisticated twist like a hero is really a proponent or legislation we wanted passed has embedded in it hurtful legislation unbeknownst to us at the time and on and on.

Helene, I would like to see reliable supporting links to the supposed effort of the government to encourage Muslims to form autonomous legal entities. This strikes me as a misinterpretation, or bogus info.

¤=[Post Update]=¤


My question? How does one wake up an entire world that the Jesus Movement was ALSO hijacked & made into another "controlling" institution? :idea:

No kidding!

I'm sure you would.
As I'm not a computer and can't bookmark everything to memory of what I read I don't always have a dissertation ready for the judges of the forum every time I write a point. you also have the option of researching something yourself that piques your interest or annoys you.
I'm reading now two books by an american indian activist that I hope to post on. She is the one who turned me on to this aspect, not a dream I had. As I work over 50 hrs it will take me awhile but it is definitely on my list because it is an aspect of the destruction of my country which saddens me.

[AutumnW]

Helene, it is really important to back up extraordinary claims with something. Your last post leaves the impression that the U.S. will eventually have a separate Sharia law state within a state that the government has encouraged. You may have read this somewhere and don't have the time or energy to support it, but the onus really is on you to provide something more than, "a friend told me," or "I read it somewhere."

If it is your opinion that this will happen, state it clearly as such, not as a matter of fact.

[AutumnW]

Listen to this Christian witness

She is 100% right, not exagerating at all, none - she is truthful and explains very well what Islam aims are and how they proceed. THIS IS WHAT IT IS, NO EXAGERATION.

she gives you the history of Islam and Mohammed, which is what is written and what is followed by ISIS and others.

She is right, lots of countries in the Middle East where Christian 60 years ago and are now Muslim, namely Lebanon, Syria (was half Christian, they are all being killed and raped right now), Egypt much more (now 10 millions christians, they were half the population previously), etc.

I am white, blond and a target - I have been told by Arabs here in Canada, that they would marry us, rape us, to make sure we do not have white christian babies but Muslim ones, and they would marry their 4 wifes to make sure they make children and overwhelm us given time. Some are open about it and spit it in our face openly (like the man in the food store who told everyone is was allowed 4 women and would just do it, despite our laws).

This is literally happening in France Marseille, a large city in southern France is now Muslim, Paris is going towards it within 20 years,

WHAT DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND, CHRISTIANS AND JEWS

My problem is not the religion itself, they could be Buddhist or whatever, the problem is the belief system and the crusade (jihad) and violence that comes with it. This is a very regressive and restrictive religion.

They were chased away from Austria a century ago and had conquest all of Eastern Europe, and were pushed back. The lesson, we invade from the inside by migrating and making children and imposing our beliefs.

Europ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EbC4fowprY

Whatever they say has a double meaning - always, they are allowed to lie for jihad and it is part of the religious culture.

Some good Muslim explained it all to me (in My city, there is many Muslims), they told me never to trust.

Flash, This is really awful. The 'battle of the cradle' has been practiced by so many and to ill effect. The work around for our society is to provide a dignified model of living that other cultures can respect.

That means, to me, outlawing pornography, for starters. To the uninformed immigrant who is trapped within his/her culture with little access to the outside world, we all appear to be whores.

He believes the media he is exposed to. From watching porn a lot of Islamic men think that Western women enjoy being raped. It's insane, for sure, but I can see how they would reach that conclusion.

Then, as members of NATO, under the Harper government, we bombed Syria. As we don't make clear distinctions between radicals and moderate thinkers, neither do they. There are going to be a few in Canada who loathe us, as a consequence. Do we deserve it? You and I? Heck no. But I can see why it has happened.

[Helene West]

Helene, it is really important to back up extraordinary claims with something. Your last post leaves the impression that the U.S. will eventually have a separate Sharia law state within a state that the government has encouraged. You may have read this somewhere and don't have the time or energy to support it, but the onus really is on you to provide something more than, "a friend told me," or "I read it somewhere."

If it is your opinion that this will happen, state it clearly as such, not as a matter of fact.

Autumn

I have read you go on name calling insulting rants against the president of this country and you don't edit yourself.

I understand what your saying and I'm as concerned. But I also believe in putting an idea out there sometimes that is important. Like I said people have options, they can ignore it, say it's drivel and move on, or look something up themselves as well as demanding Proof Proof. Chances are when same people don't get the 'Proof' they like or want it will go into an unending thread as we have seen happen at times. I'll get back to it because it is important to me. Thx

[turiya]

My question? How does one wake up an entire world that the Jesus Movement was ALSO hijacked & made into another "controlling" institution? :idea:

Foxie Loxie
Like most everyone else... Missing the first step will lead you on a path of many other missed steps that will be taken following that first misstep.

The message of Jesus & all other awakened individuals is to not follow them.... to not be a follower. Don't try to be like Jesus. The whole message, that most Christians are missing, is to not try to be like Jesus... But to be authentically yourself. This is what Jesus was about. He was being authentically himself. Existence doesn't make cabon copies.

The more appropriate question to ask would be:



How does one wake oneself up?

That's all that anybody can really do.
Once that is done, then that is enough.
If you want to wake up the world before you have awakened yourself, well then, this is what has been called a "Messiah complex (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah_complex)."

Anyone who thinks they have already awakened, know well, that they are most probably not!

[AutumnW]

Helene, My opinions about Trump are/were obviously that. The statement you made about Sharia law states, being encouraged by government are stated as fact and beyond that provide fuel for anti- Islamic fear.

[TargeT]

My question? How does one wake up an entire world that the Jesus Movement was ALSO hijacked & made into another "controlling" institution? :idea:


Theres a LOT of evidence that christianity and islam were practiced side by side, often in the same churches before both religions were perverted by the parasites.
See this fascinating video:
wfqSyFG3fMY

So yes.. clearly all three branches of the abrahamic religion (Islam, Christianity & Judaism) have been split, corrupted and turned against each other.

All the books were burned during the inquisition... our entire history was re-written at that time to what we think to be true now.

This really was the seed that grew into the situation we are at now with islam v the world (or, the world v islam?)

Popular culture encourages this three way divide where ever possible:
xagqiIVW6qk



The statement you made about Sharia law states, being encouraged by government are stated as fact and beyond that provide fuel for anti- Islamic fear.

That is only true for like 1/4th the planet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_of_Islamic_law_by_country)

The UK has 85 Sharia courts.

Sharia is part of Germany's private law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_law) through the regulations of the German international private law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_private_law). It applies to people with nationalities from countries using Sharia. (a law that only applies to people from certain countries... hmm... I thought the PC crowd woulda shot that one down on principle).

so.. yeah...

[Helene West]

Helene, My opinions about Trump are/were obviously that. The statement you made about Sharia law states, being encouraged by government are stated as fact and beyond that provide fuel for anti- Islamic fear.

Easy on yourself, pretty hard on others from what I've seen.
it wasn't the main point of the post and islam doesn't need me to "provide fuel for anti- Islamic fear", it does a great job all by itself.
But I also knew you'd be the first one to focus on that :)...thanks for highlighting the prelude, I need some help to get me away from the computer screen and back to my books.

[AutumnW]

Target, the UK has 85 Sharia courts? But those courts would operate under the greater umbrella of British Law, correct? A woman isn't going to be stoned to death for serving someone a pulled pork sandwich, right? I am hoping the answer is yes!

Whatever the case, there should be one rule of law, the hijab shouldn't be allowed and those who express a deep and abiding hatred of those who have taken them in, (not just misperceptions based on their exposure to the worst aspects of Western media and entertainment) should be sent packing. Bigotry does work both ways.

I am quite sure there are no government endorsed Sharia courts in the U.S. though. And it would take plenty to convince me that the American govt, right or left ever emcouraged any group to try to get that started.

I am striving for accuracy in reports. It doesn't mean I like the radical aspects of any religion. Fundamentalist Christians in the military seem to be as much on the war path as weird Wahhabists in Isis and creepy orthodox Israelis.

As soon as these radicals characterize anybody as evil, the 'evil' group defends itself with behavior starts to match expectations. And nobody does this better than the fundamentalist sects of any religion. Black and white thinking is so ungood.

[Helene West]

Hey Autumn
It just occurred to me - she's nice enough to be reading my posts! I know a lot of people react without reading. So for that thanks!
I'll try to get you your documentation as soon as I can...

[TargeT]

A woman isn't going to be stoned to death for serving someone a pulled pork sandwich, right?

Not today, no.. But we all should be aware of the "totalitarian tip toe"; we have countless historical examples, this is a real tactic and it works.


Whatever the case, there should be one rule of law,
I certainly agree, I also think there should be a limited number of laws and they should be written to be easily understood as well as accurate.


the hijab shouldn't be allowed

I think perhaps they shouldn't be allowed to be enforced. but your right, it will just stay hidden.. this is a hard one, because the Hijab is just a symptom of a problem, and banning symptoms does nothing for the problem itself.



I am quite sure there are no government endorsed Sharia courts in the U.S. though. And it would take plenty to convince me that the American govt, right or left ever emcouraged any group to try to get that started.

That certainly would be an uphill battle, t (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/
)hat's for sure.. I don't see it as an eminent threat, but an eventual one... as Sharia law is mandated to be spread by the Quran, and it only takes a few dedicated people to make real change.

[QUOTE=AutumnW;1152990] Fundamentalist Christians in the military seem to be as much on the war path as weird Wahhabists in Isis and creepy orthodox Israelis.

Ahh, not sure if I agree with that at this point in time... perhaps back during the crusades. but the pendulum never dwells in one spot for long.



As soon as these radicals characterize anybody as evil, the 'evil' group defends itself with behavior starts to match expectations. And nobody does this better than the fundamentalist sects of any religion. Black and white thinking is so ungood.

and here we see the finger prints of the parasites... clearly these institutions (religion) have been thoroughly compromised into excellent extremism filtering processes that concentrate the "true believers" into tiny echo chambers where ideas (some times wildly unrealistic ideas) can be easily introduced.

I don't blame the people who were raised in those cultures (religious), but I won't ignore the patterns I see around them.

[Flash]

Yes Turiya, I took the video below from one of your post from another thread. I did think it is a must listen for eveyone on one hand, on the other hand, you had much heat on for your points of views, why not taking it on me this time around, and third, I was preparing for work and had not much time for credits and references (but not an excuse)

I thank you for bringing the video to our attention, I would not have found it without you, however, all that is in it, I already knew, had read it, had mostly heard it directly (no hearsay)




Listen to this Christian witness

She is 100% right, not exagerating at all, none - she is truthful and explains very well what Islam aims are and how they proceed. THIS IS WHAT IT IS, NO EXAGERATION.

she gives you the history of Islam and Mohammed, which is what is written and what is followed by ISIS and others.

She is right, lots of countries in the Middle East where Christian 60 years ago and are now Muslim, namely Lebanon, Syria (was half Christian, they are all being killed and raped right now), Egypt much more (now 10 millions christians, they were half the population previously), etc.

I am white, blond and a target - I have been told by Arabs here in Canada, that they would marry us, rape us, to make sure we do not have white christian babies but Muslim ones, and they would marry their 4 wifes to make sure they make children and overwhelm us given time. Some are open about it and spit it in our face openly (like the man in the food store who told everyone is was allowed 4 women and would just do it, despite our laws).

This is literally happening in France Marseille, a large city in southern France is now Muslim, Paris is going towards it within 20 years,

WHAT DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND, CHRISTIANS AND JEWS

My problem is not the religion itself, they could be Buddhist or whatever, the problem is the belief system and the crusade (jihad) and violence that comes with it. This is a very regressive and restrictive religion.

They were chased away from Austria a century ago and had conquest all of Eastern Europe, and were pushed back. The lesson, we invade from the inside by migrating and making children and imposing our beliefs.

Europ



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EbC4fowprY

Whatever they say has a double meaning - always, they are allowed to lie for jihad and it is part of the religious culture.

Some good Muslim explained it all to me (in My city, there is many Muslims), they told me never to trust.

Thanks Flash, for posting this. I see you picked this up from my "off topic" thread "The Turiya File". (http://projectavalon.net/forum4/showthread.php?46901-The-turiya-file&p=1152815&viewfull=1#post1152815). I uploaded it to youtube late yesterday. I was planning on posting it here on this thread, but thought it would be better to wait a bit, until the heat of the thread cooled down some. It's also probably better that someone else posted this video, as some may not think it appropriate for me to keep on posting so much of what Islam is truly all about.

Again, thanks for taking the lead on this one...

Scholar David Wood also has many videos whereupon he brings out much of what the so-called Islamic faith holds to be true. Here's one where he explains about the practice of circumcision - cutting of the genitalia both for men & women... not a pleasant topic, but still better to come to grips with the reality of it, than not...


Linda Sarsour Caught Lying about
Female Genital Mutilation in Islam
(Published on Apr 25, 2017)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qle_4qiH4tU