When does abduction turn voluntary?

[mojo]

This question is one that deserves some attention because even our own Bill has been taken high in mountains out of tent one night and so many other members talk about their own abduction. Yet we can reference John Mack and others to determine some abductions can be considered positive. That was a tough one to understand, and other members have stated abduction cant be positive when being taken against your will. But they can be and Betty Hill is an excellent example. Some would argue Stockholm syndrome but personally dont believe that in contact because they let the individual go after and the person still has positive feelings.

[WhiteLove]

This question is one that deserves some attention because even our own Bill has been taken high in mountains out of tent one night and so many other members talk about their own abduction. Yet we can reference John Mack and others to determine some abductions can be considered positive. That was a tough one to understand, and other members have stated abduction cant be positive when being taken against your will. But they can be and Betty Hill is an excellent example. Some would argue Stockholm syndrome but personally dont believe that in contact because they let the individual go after and the person still has positive feelings.

If I remember correctly among all of the abduction cases Dr. David Jacobs has studied he considers not a single abduction to be positive, there is just nothing there that supports that being the case. But that is his set of abductions he has looked into, but it becomes compelling because of how many cases he has studied. Also, it is interesting that abductees are selected based on biological traces, e.g., blood lines, family members etc., this also indicates the cause of the phenomenon might be more of biological rather than spiritual nature. So all in all the case for positive abductions becomes rather weak, although I am sure such cases exist as well. Therefore maybe the most logical conclusion about the phenomenon right now is that the bulk of the abductions is not positive, it appears to be some form of abuse, maybe driven by an incredibly strong self interest by these beings (assuming that they are self aware, they might also be partially self aware or similar depending on what they are and how they function, they could maybe be partially robotic so that certain aspects of their behavior are beyond their own awareness). I guess it becomes more positive when the abductee reports he/she has not felt abused in any way. But it is interesting that the abductions do not tend to be mostly positive, that tells us something... Adding to that we have things like cattle mutilations and lots of people gone missing in national parks, it does not make the picture more pretty. It would be interesting to know the statistics on negative vs. neutral...

[Cidersomerset]

Billy Meier and others went voluntarily so they claim , many others have terrifying
experiences I suppose it depends on the ET's and the black ops abductors and their
various agendas, from the many interviews I have seen over the years it is very
complex.....

[mojo]

this video helped to understand regression.. also a positive experience.

ohMkHzEwuwE

also the detail this abductee remembers from regression was amazing, yet still some experiences are not positive. John Mack had to divide the category into two types.

pORT3Z0xHrs

[Bill Ryan]

It's a fascinating (and maybe very important) question.

My only offerings, opinions only:

Many abductions I think really are involuntary (i.e. non-consensual). One of David Jacobs' well-known presentations is called Abductees and their Involuntary Tasks.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzTxiFem-aI

But some, I do think, are by long term genuine agreement. It's almost bound to be a mixed bag.


This question is one that deserves some attention because even our own Bill has been taken high in mountains out of tent one night and so many other members talk about their own abduction.

I'd assumed and believed for many years that this was against my will. Much later, I discovered that it actually wasn't... it was part of a far bigger picture which I'd totally signed up to (and was for my benefit).

Part of the problem, in some cases, may be the little grey guys, so often reported by every kind of abductee. I feel very sure they're almost certainly bio-robots of some sort, and maybe ET races of all agendas have them and employ them. But simply that can certainly trigger reactions in some people... especially if one's had negative experiences with them before, even in another life or realm of existence.

[neutronstar]

I believe it is always voluntary. Maybe not to the ego, but to the higher self who volunteered to have the life. Everything that happens to us in our lives has a purpose, and we agreed to it coming in. Just because the ego labels something as bad doesn't mean from a higher perspective that it is. We play the part of bad guys sometimes and good guys other times. Karma must be balanced.

[Spiral]

this video helped to understand regression.. also a positive experience.

ohMkHzEwuwE



!!!! Never seen a girl with such predatory eyes, really evil, & full of deception !

[wnlight]

Abduction is the action or an instance of forcibly taking someone away against their will. How can anyone get away with calling an abduction a positive experience? If I were to be yanked out of my home to have painful and scary medical experiments performed on me, there would be very little that I could describe as positive. This is a criminal act executed by an alien that cares very little for me. These abductions remind me of behavior of some naturalists that dart a wild animal, take body samples (for the good of the species) and measurements, clip the ears, tag and apply radio collars.
Are we to be treated like a wild Earth species managed for our own good? I prefer to opt out, thank you.

Perhaps a positive abduction experience would be for some of us to turn the table on the aliens.

[Bill Ryan]

These abductions remind me of behavior of some naturalists that dart a wild animal, take body samples (for the good of the species) and measurements, clip the ears, tag and apply radio collars.
Are we to be treated like a wild Earth species managed for our own good? I prefer to opt out, thank you.



That may be a good analogy: it really does seem that at least some ETs regard us in some way as their 'property'.

Some gamekeepers and research scientists regularly do stuff to animals that must seem terrifying to them. They come to no harm, but the animals are not 'volunteering'. And yet it really is for their benefit, as a species.

And when I take my dog to the vet for some treatment that she needs, that's for her own direct benefit. But she's certainly not coming willingly. It's merely impossible to explain.

And then, one sees trucks taking sheep, pigs or cattle to the slaughterhouse. The animals have no idea what's ahead of them in the coming hours. That's not for their benefit... at all.

[bogeyman]

Always in terms of human concepts and understanding based upon ones personal experience, ideology, emotional feelings at the time, or limited educational insight. Ever thought of the non physical or spiritual aspects of your existence and knowing that all is one, hence it would be a collective encounter a oneness pertaining to contact or abduction has some people would see it. Hence voluntary wouldn't even come into it that is a conscious thought process, not a non physical response, a separation so to speak.

[EFO]

This question is one that deserves some attention because even our own Bill has been taken high in mountains out of tent one night and so many other members talk about their own abduction. Yet we can reference John Mack and others to determine some abductions can be considered positive. That was a tough one to understand, and other members have stated abduction cant be positive when being taken against your will. But they can be and Betty Hill is an excellent example. Some would argue Stockholm syndrome but personally dont believe that in contact because they let the individual go after and the person still has positive feelings.

Dear mojo,

When I was at the age of 7 or 8 I dreamed that I was falling through a pitch black void space.First time I was afraid,not scared,but only afraid.Second one,first I was afraid again,but I remembered that I was falling last time and nothing bad happened and suddenly the afraid was gone like it wasn't there.Third time I was interested about the falling.Much later I found that this process could be a form of pulling - I avoid term of "abduction" as much as possible,it's insulting for me.

Last year my wife was pulled two times through a bright white tunnel.First time nothing happened,but second time she said that she have the most beautiful experience at the end of the tunnel in her life till now.I was amazed and shocked about her story and what she saw there.

Coming back to me and speaking for myself only,conscious I don't remember having any bad feeling about what was happened to me up to this age.Their purpose about human condition is beyond our imagination and the simple thing human most do is simply put together the pieces of puzzle and learn.Nothing more,nothing less.

A year ago I wanted hard to do a regression,but I learned that for me is much better to be patience,wait and learn,but also is important for others to find what my informations are.Perhaps in time I would be able to share my informations without a regression.

Until than I can only describe what was/is conscious happened and I can only say that if I was pulled it wasn't bad at all.

[mojo]

Hi EFO,
You brought up two good points that were mentioned in Betty Hills last interview. One, people should not do hypnosis regression because the memories will come back over time without help and she also mentioned that she doesn't consider herself an abductee but a passenger. Instead of calling them aliens or Ets she called them astronauts.. Thought those comments were opposite to what we heard of Betty.

[AutumnW]

My intuition is that it is never voluntary and that any feeling the person has about it being the result of a long term agreement of some sort is due to the power of suggestion. The ET's themselves are completely on control, not only of the experience itself but of the conclusions drawn from it.

[Foxie Loxie]

@Bill.....Just wondering at what point in your Journey did you realize that your abduction was something you had agreed to at a prior time? :confused:

[william r sanford72]

David Jacobs saying all hybrids and abductions are bad reminds of the witch trials....if my children or anyone I new were hybrids or evolved humans I would tell em keep hiding were not ready yet..let alone what the ptb etc would do to em.Has done.
abductions for me have been a mixed bag mainly due to the reactions of the people around me and my family.The trauma sufferd was due to reality smashing views and programing of a lifetime being shatterd in an instant.
The core of who I am was is the same...I have been this way my whole life as far as the environment and helping others.nothing of a alien/et programed this or requested or tasked this to me.as a matter of fact the ufos and contact only confirmed much for me.Gave me courage to bee who iam.
So despite the negative...I have grown.and regret and fear nothing from them.

William.:heart:

[Bill Ryan]

@Bill.....Just wondering at what point in your Journey did you realize that your abduction was something you had agreed to at a prior time? :confused:

Thanks for the question. It may have been in 2012, I think, but I know it was before mid-2013. It took many years for me to understand it, as it was so complex and multi-layered.

[Spiral]

Part of the problem, in some cases, may be the little grey guys, so often reported by every kind of abductee. I feel very sure they're almost certainly bio-robots of some sort, and maybe ET races of all agendas have them and employ them. But simply that can certainly trigger reactions in some people... especially if one's had negative experiences with them before, even in another life or realm of existence.

Once upon a time I used to take my dog out last thing at night in winter for a toilet break (otherwise it's a long time between walks), and one night we set off up the road at just after midnight with my rechargeable hi power torch that only lasts about 6 mins.

We approached the telegraph pole where we turned around (only a few hundred yards away from the house) and the next instant the gravel of the driveway was crunching beneath my feet & we were back at the house, torch still on full beam (unusually, it would normally be going dim at this point).

I entered the house to find my wife in bed fast asleep & it was 1:35 am.....

That's about an hour & a half of missing time, & ever since that day my dog who is scared of very little (not even fireworks or thunder) started being petrified of children of a certain hieght in cycle helmets....

[Foxie Loxie]

@wm-72 "...reality smashing views & programming of a lifetime being shattered in an instant." I have never had an abduction, but the same thing happened to me after I joined Avalon!!! :ROFL: I DO think you put it very well! :highfive:

[AutumnW]

Part of the problem, in some cases, may be the little grey guys, so often reported by every kind of abductee. I feel very sure they're almost certainly bio-robots of some sort, and maybe ET races of all agendas have them and employ them. But simply that can certainly trigger reactions in some people... especially if one's had negative experiences with them before, even in another life or realm of existence.

Once upon a time I used to take my dog out last thing at night in winter for a toilet break (otherwise it's a long time between walks), and one night we set off up the road at just after midnight with my rechargeable hi power torch that only lasts about 6 mins.

We approached the telegraph pole where we turned around (only a few hundred yards away from the house) and the next instant the gravel of the driveway was crunching beneath my feet & we were back at the house, torch still on full beam (unusually, it would normally be going dim at this point).

I entered the house to find my wife in bed fast asleep & it was 1:35 am.....

That's about an hour & a half of missing time, & ever since that day my dog who is scared of very little (not even fireworks or thunder) started being petrified of children of a certain hieght in cycle helmets....

Now you're scaring me! Must be why I nudge my dog out the door and have her do her business all by herself at night! I have to admit, I have never had any extreme experiences like yours though...that I remember!

[Spiral]

Part of the problem, in some cases, may be the little grey guys, so often reported by every kind of abductee. I feel very sure they're almost certainly bio-robots of some sort, and maybe ET races of all agendas have them and employ them. But simply that can certainly trigger reactions in some people... especially if one's had negative experiences with them before, even in another life or realm of existence.

Once upon a time I used to take my dog out last thing at night in winter for a toilet break (otherwise it's a long time between walks), and one night we set off up the road at just after midnight with my rechargeable hi power torch that only lasts about 6 mins.

We approached the telegraph pole where we turned around (only a few hundred yards away from the house) and the next instant the gravel of the driveway was crunching beneath my feet & we were back at the house, torch still on full beam (unusually, it would normally be going dim at this point).

I entered the house to find my wife in bed fast asleep & it was 1:35 am.....

That's about an hour & a half of missing time, & ever since that day my dog who is scared of very little (not even fireworks or thunder) started being petrified of children of a certain hieght in cycle helmets....

Now you're scaring me! Must be why I nudge my dog out the door and have her do her business all by herself at night! I have to admit, I have never had any extreme experiences like yours though...that I remember!

The thing is no matter what I do I have no memory of what happened in that lost time, but the torch & the dog prove to me something happened !

[TrumanCash]

Abductions are not voluntary. The abducting ETs not only steal our memories (theft) without our permission by hypnotically implanting the abductee to forget the abduction, they also implant false memories of the abduction so that if memories do return they will only be false memories of the abduction that portray a positive abduction.

By definition the word "abduct" means to kidnap. It means to take without permission. That's why that term is used.

New agers who have accepted the brainwashing lies of channeled entities/ETs often told me that I agreed to be abducted. I knew innately that that was not true. Later, after conducting very extensive past life regressions I found that it was indeed a lie promulgated by the ETs themselves via channeling.

It appears that John Mack did not know about these false memories, sometimes called "screen memories". Karla Turner and Barbara Bartholic were some of the first researchers to discover these false, implanted memories and found how they could get around them.

I use a different technique than Karla but it is very effective for exposing these false, implanted memories. I cover this in more detail in my books (links below).

Any ethical, spiritually-evolved ET would never kidnap another sentient being unless they have been mind-controlled to do that.

[Foxie Loxie]

So....it IS one big vicious circle of trying to figure out Who is controlling Who?!! :facepalm:

[Joe Akulis]

I know that regression therapy has its critics, but it does bring to light a question that should be asked in a lot of these cases:

How do I know that I'm not a member of one of these ET races, and that I'm not currently performing a one-time-incarnation here on Earth, and the folks doing the "abducting" are actually my own people that I will once again consider myself a part of once this lifetime is over?

There would be some value to knowing the answer to that question for every single case of "abduction", if you ask me. Getting an answer that we can trust and rely on seems to be the hard part. Too bad we have to forget so much when we come here. :-)

[mojo]

Betty and Barney Hill were taken against their will and later Betty would sense there were UFOs nearby and drive out to meet them they never took her like in the original beginning she volunteered to go..imo that is an excellent example of voluntary...

[Foxie Loxie]

Agreed, Joe A.!! :highfive:

[Spiral]

Betty and Barney Hill were taken against their will and later Betty would sense there were UFOs nearby and drive out to meet them they never took her like in the original beginning she volunteered to go..imo that is an excellent example of voluntary...

Not really, after the first time she could have been responding to any kind of programming.

We need to stop excusing their behaviour !

[mojo]

Perhaps it's not excusing but a behavior that one might have?... just as in a sense of adventure... Betty represents a type of experience at first that seemed menacing and ethically wrong but quickly went positive. If you dont agree with Betty pov try John Mack. His book Abduction shows how complicated and varied the subject is, and in the book he states there are good and bad abductions, thats hard to wrap a thought around.... There might be another reason why Barney was paralyzed in a way that Betty Hill was not, maybe to protect the ETs or himself from harm??? Just saying...there could be other reasons why it seems like abduction but another motive of the entities behind it... but it surprising to me that some people are locked into one viewpoint.

[Spiral]

Perhaps it's not excusing but a behavior that one might have?... just as in a sense of adventure... Betty represents a type of experience at first that seemed menacing and ethically wrong but quickly went positive. If you dont agree with Betty pov try John Mack. His book Abduction shows how complicated and varied the subject is, and in the book he states there are good and bad abductions, thats hard to wrap a thought around.... There might be another reason why Barney was paralyzed in a way that Betty Hill was not, maybe to protect the ETs or himself from harm??? Just saying...there could be other reasons why it seems like abduction but another motive of the entities behind it... but it surprising to me that some people are locked into one viewpoint.

Maybe I need to re read JM, but my own experiences are greater in my own mind than any thing else & any aspect of "positivity" seems like deceit as I'm well tuned to them doing that, it's all part of getting people to "open up" to them.

[EFO]

Hi EFO,
You brought up two good points that were mentioned in Betty Hills last interview. One, people should not do hypnosis regression because the memories will come back over time without help and she also mentioned that she doesn't consider herself an abductee but a passenger. Instead of calling them aliens or Ets she called them astronauts.. Thought those comments were opposite to what we heard of Betty.

Hi mojo,
Betty and Barney Hill case is one of the famous most investigated cases in efology,but its funny that I can't recall those two things,which I consider them very important,you mentioned that she said and I'm too lazy for the moment to search that statements. :)

On the other hand regarding your thread's question,I also have a question for you:
What would be your thoughts/feelings about finding in the next morning,two times during a month at an interval of about three weeks,a long strand of grass (second strand of grass different from the first one - this one was more whited than the second one which was more fresh) on your side of the common bed from your bedroom?And no,me or my wife are not sleepwalkers.These two proofed events happened in June 2017 and never happened before.

Where I was or who it was in our bedroom during those two nights I don't have a clue.These are more other pieces to be added to the puzzle board of my experience as you and others on this forum or from elsewhere have.

Coming back to your question "When does abduction turn voluntary?",IMO is not about talking if a pulling is voluntary or not,but is about what we need to learn from that experience,if we remember it, and the message we have/need to send it further and how is understand the message.The main message is:
-protect the environment/Earth in any way,
-avoid any kind of conflicts from family to international and
-learn to behave with yourself,others around you and IEBE.
In a sentence: Be civilized in all aspects of your life.

In any,way at a subconscious level or even deeper (DNA/chromosomal level) the connection remained imprinted forever or is activated at a certain time.

[Bayareamom]

This question is one that deserves some attention because even our own Bill has been taken high in mountains out of tent one night and so many other members talk about their own abduction. Yet we can reference John Mack and others to determine some abductions can be considered positive. That was a tough one to understand, and other members have stated abduction cant be positive when being taken against your will. But they can be and Betty Hill is an excellent example. Some would argue Stockholm syndrome but personally dont believe that in contact because they let the individual go after and the person still has positive feelings.

If I remember correctly among all of the abduction cases Dr. David Jacobs has studied he considers not a single abduction to be positive, there is just nothing there that supports that being the case. But that is his set of abductions he has looked into, but it becomes compelling because of how many cases he has studied. Also, it is interesting that abductees are selected based on biological traces, e.g., blood lines, family members etc., this also indicates the cause of the phenomenon might be more of biological rather than spiritual nature. So all in all the case for positive abductions becomes rather weak, although I am sure such cases exist as well. Therefore maybe the most logical conclusion about the phenomenon right now is that the bulk of the abductions is not positive, it appears to be some form of abuse, maybe driven by an incredibly strong self interest by these beings (assuming that they are self aware, they might also be partially self aware or similar depending on what they are and how they function, they could maybe be partially robotic so that certain aspects of their behavior are beyond their own awareness). I guess it becomes more positive when the abductee reports he/she has not felt abused in any way. But it is interesting that the abductions do not tend to be mostly positive, that tells us something... Adding to that we have things like cattle mutilations and lots of people gone missing in national parks, it does not make the picture more pretty. It would be interesting to know the statistics on negative vs. neutral...

I had an interesting discussion today w/someone affiliated w/a MAJOR organization which researches the abduction phenomenon. This was a gentleman I spoke with; his academic/credentials are impressive. He is one of the four founders of this organization. As we were talking, he explained his organization has compiled data sets on over 3,000 abductees from around the globe. He states that, to-date, of this data set, most of the individuals who took the survey, created by this organization, state that they have had nothing but positive experiences. This man stated to me that only a very small subset of these individuals claimed to have had negative experiences.

He also states that this data comprises to-date the ONLY such type research ever done by anyone on this planet. I listened politely, but then had a few questions (I could barely get a question in edge wise). I asked if he had ever heard of Dr. Karla Turner and if so, was he at all aware of her research. He stated he was aware, that he had viewed a few of her lectures, but felt that she 'had an agenda,' as does, he stated, Dr. Jacobs. I told him that although I felt compiling data on over 3,000 individuals is very impressive (and it is), but I stressed that 3,000 individuals is most likely a drop in the bucket comparatively speaking as to how many individuals this phenomenon actually encompasses. There are most likely millions of individuals having some type of anomalous experiences and thus, most of that data has not been properly analyzed and compiled in this type of endeavor.

He couldn't deny this, but became somewhat defensive as he yet again stated he felt that his organization's survey and data confirms for a fact that most of the experiencers out there have had nothing more than positive experiences. So I then asked him to explain the MILAB situation. He paused a little and stated that out of the 600 questions put forth on his organization's survey, only EIGHT questions asked were relating to the MILAB issue. EIGHT QUESTIONS! I couldn't help myself and I actually blurted out, "You only asked EIGHT questions about MILABS?"

Amazingly, we then segued into the issue as to whether the 'government' is involved w/any of these type experiences. He actually stated that they have no data which would show that our government was even remotely involved w/the abduction phenomenon! I was absolutely flabbergasted. But yet, I remained polite and calm, and told him that I know for a fact that the government is most definitely involved w/this phenomenon and that there are definitely black ops groups who know what is going on w/this ET/human/abduction issue.

It has to be said that I remained absolutely polite and calm as I stated this to him, and then I related just two of my own experiences (my son was also with me during both of these experiences). When I finished sharing w/him what occurred during these experiences, he paused and stated (I'm paraphrasing), "I've never heard of anything like this before. Your experiences must be very limited and unique to YOU."

That would be correct. But then he went on and seemed to want to impress upon me that there are nothing more than positive ET experiences out there re anyone who has ever had encounters with these Beings.

He became irritated at this point and went on and on about all of the nonsense going on out there on social media about some of this phenomenon. I further explained that I am not on social media; I have no Facebook account, no Twitter account, no Instagram account, etc., and that I have nothing to SELL, other than the sharing of just a couple of my own experiences. At one point, I actually asked him (again - politely) if he thought I was a liar.

He said no, but he just would not accept what I told him what I happen to know, based on my own experiences.

The thing that amazes me is that while he was claiming Dr. Turner and Dr. Jacobs had/have their own agendas, he, too, seems to have his own agenda/bias w/this issue. I cannot explain how much this truly saddens me. I was once told by someone of whom I will say is definitely in the know about this issue, that I would never find any of my own answers to ANY of this, on the Internet. I think it is safe to say that after tonight and after having spoken with several so-called researchers in this genre, that I will never find any of my answers (just speaking for myself here) on the Net.

Oh - even though I remained extremely polite and calm throughout our conversation, he hung up on me. He wrote me a couple of emails, sending me copies of data sets re the research results of this organization.

I deleted the emails. I was shaking after this conversation. It is very, VERY difficult for me to be able to share any of my story w/anyone; I tend to be a somewhat shy person, and even though my experiences are shall we say not of the norm for most out there, the clear bias of these researchers still astounds me even after all this time.