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I have a question:
Does anyone remember the claim made by Father Malachi Martin that the Third Secret of Fatima involved the cities of Minsk and Kiev?
I am 99% sure he said this, but I cannot find any reference to it online anymore. Moreover I cannot find anyone who made a connection between the Third Secret and these cities, but I am certain it was made.
There have been other apparitions of Fatima. There is Our Lady of Akita. Did it feature in one of the other Fatima encounters? I remember the Akita one being very similar to the Portugal one but happening in 1973
https://www.ncregister.com/blog/our-...today-s-crisis
An introductory note to this new thread. I copied the 4 posts below from Houman's major thread* Horus-Ra as the Archontic Alien Parasite: A follow-up interview with Maarit.
* For newer members: disregard the quirky thread title. :) It's an important, wide-ranging thread that's been continually active for 11 years, and contains a very great deal of fascinating material.
One of the issues that Houman has been personally interested in is prophecy, and there have been a number of posts about The Third Secret of Fatima. It was just today that I became convinced that this needed its own standalone thread.
The video I post immediately below, and the transcript and links that I added, seem to me to be worth showcasing as something that we can increasingly see is relevant to today's unstable and rapidly-changing world, and is critical to understand as best we can.
:flower:
A VERY interesting Art Bell interview which may not(?) have been posted yet on the forum. My thanks to Harmony for finding it.
Malachi Martin talks about the 3rd Secret of Fatima
https://youtube.com/watch?v=6bKR_ojgxGE
This is what Art Bell reads to Fr. Martin at the start of the interview, something that he says was sent to him. He asks Fr. Martin if this is accurate. Fr. Martin responds very carefully: (slightly abridged here in transcript)It is not the text which was given to me to read in 1960. There are elements in it which do belong in the Third Secret. That's the most measured response I could give to it.Then Art Bell asks if the Third Secret is as traumatic as is suggested in what he read. Fr Martin responds: (also slightly abridged)
Much more so. The central element in the Third Secret is awful. And it's not in that text.Fr. Martin later states that the person who wrote the text that was sent to Art Bell (transcribed below) would certainly have been privy to the original Third Secret, either having read it personally or via word of mouth.
~~~"A great plague will befall mankind. Nowhere in the world will there be order. Satan will rule the highest places, determining the way of things. He will succeed in seducing the spirits of the great scientists who invent all kinds of arms with which it will be possible to destroy a large part of humanity in a few minutes.
Satan will have his power. The powerful who command the people and who will incite them to produce enormous quantities of arms. God will punish man more thoroughly than with the flood. There will come the time of all times and the end of all ends. The great and powerful will perish together with the small and weak.
Even for the Church, it will be the time of its greatest trial. Cardinals will oppose Cardinals; Bishops will oppose Bishops. Satan will walk among them, and in Rome there will be changes. The Church will be darkened and the world will be shaking with terror.
One great war will erupt in the second half of the twentieth century. Fire and smoke will fall from the sky. The waters of the oceans will change into steam, and the steam will rise and overflow everything. The waters of the ocean will become mist. Millions and millions of people will die from hour to hour.
Whoever remains alive will envy the dead. Everywhere one turns one's glance there is going to be anguish and misery. Ruins in every country. The time draws nearer. The abyss widens without hope. The good to perish with the bad; the great with the small; the princes of the Church with the faithful; the rulers with their people.
There will be death everywhere because of the errors committed by non-believers and crazy followers of Satan which will then and only then take control over the world. At the last, those who survive will at every chance newly proclaim God and His glory, and they will serve Him as when the world was not so perverted."
Continuing from the post above, Malachi Martin tells Art Bell about a second series of visitations, in the early 1960s, in Garabandal, in Spain, in which the message was "very dire, a repetition of the Third Secret in brief form".
I was unaware of this, so I looked it up. Here's the Wiki page in Spanish:
And here's the very thorough English auto-translation, way too long to post here but which is extremely interesting.
Quote:
Posted by Bill Ryan
Thank you for bringing this part up. I just listened to that Art Bell show. Yes me too, I didn’t know that the Garabandal sightings was because the Catholic pope did not reveal the third secret of Fatima, when in fact as Father Malachi said, the secret was supposed to be revealed to the public.
Also in looking up our Lady of Garabandal, the children said she looked like our Lady of Carmel. From my little knowledge of our Lady of Carmel, whoever wore the scapular of our Lady of Carmel was protected by our Lady. I remember when I was a child I wore one as did my whole family, my siblings as my mom was a devout believer of the Virgin Mary. I didn’t know how important that scapular was till now.
Also I think there is a thread on Avalon about our Lady of Garabandal.
This site is where I read about Our Lady of Carmel,
http://www.garabandal.org/story.shtml
I would also like to add that in that Art Bell show, in answer to a caller asking why would anyone join the church when the pope didn’t reveal the secret, Father Malachi said, “It’s not the church, it’s the Churchmen”.
This feels very important, published in October 2022. I'll copy the whole article.
Fatima’s Miracle of the Sun and the Warnings of Akita
In Akita, Japan, on Saturday, Oct. 13, 1973 — the anniversary of Fatima’s Miracle of the Sun — Our Blessed Mother gave a dire warning for the world. In part, she said:My dear daughter, listen well to what I have to say to you. … As l told you, if men do not repent and better themselves, the Father will inflict a terrible punishment on all humanity. It will be a punishment greater than the deluge, such as one will never have seen before. Fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity, the good as well as the bad, sparing neither priests nor faithful. The survivors will find themselves so desolate that they will envy the dead.Sister Agnes Sasagawa, had just begun the Rosary when she heard Our Lady speak these words to her. But that was only part of the message. Our Blessed Mother also said:The only arms that will remain for you will be the Rosary and the Sign left by my Son. Each day recite the prayers of the Rosary. With the Rosary, pray for the Pope, the bishops and the priests. The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against other bishops. The priests who venerate me will be scorned and opposed by their confrères ... churches and altars sacked; the Church will be full of those who accept compromises and the demon will press many priests and consecrated souls to leave the service of the Lord.How can we continue to ignore or fail to respond to Our Lady’s warnings of 49 years ago as the news blares about nuclear bomb threats from Russia? Who can ignore the shocking headlines about cardinals and bishops strongly opposing one another on Church doctrine and other matters, such as happening in Germany? And how many, laity included, are openly promoting, supporting or accepting “compromises” to the faith, even down to anti-life and “reversals” of Genesis?
Sister Agnes, who had joined the Sisters of Notre Dame when she was in Nagasaki (another hint of the Fatima connection?), heard Our Lady go on:The demon will be especially implacable against souls consecrated to God. The thought of the loss of so many souls is the cause of my sadness. If sins increase in number and gravity, there will be no longer pardon for them.More on that meaning shortly. But as at Fatima, our Blessed Mother gave us hope and a response at Akita as she said:Pray very much the prayers of the Rosary. I alone am able still to save you from the calamities which approach. Those who place their confidence in me will be saved.“It is the message of Fatima,” Bishop John Ito told pilgrims coming to the convent chapel. He approved the apparitions and messages as authentic.
Bishop Ito would also give an imprimatur and high recommendation to the book Akita: The Tears and Messages of Mary, written by Father Teiji Yasuda, chaplain of the Akita convent. Father Yasuda wrote:The heart of the third message given by Our Lady at Akita is a warning which can be summed up thus, ‘If men do not repent and better themselves, there will be a terrible chastisement.’ At Fatima Our Lady gave a dreadful warning. If her requests were not heeded, error would spread from an atheist Russia throughout the entire world, fomenting further wars; the good will be persecuted; the Holy Father will suffer much, and several entire nations will be annihilated.’Have we listened? A terrible, dreadful warning it is. At Fatima, too, Our Lady warned of the possibility that “various nations will be annihilated.” She reminded us again with strong words at Akita. Have we listened?
No Coincidences
The connections between Akita and Fatima are striking, beginning with Akita’s major message and Fatima’s Miracle of the Sun both taking place on Oct. 13. The day of the week was the same — a Saturday, our Blessed Mother’s special day. Our Lady’s apparitions ended at Fatima on this date, and on the same date and day she gave her last message to Sister Agnes.
Both Fatima and Akita began with visits from an angel.
While Sister Agnes was praying the Rosary, her guardian angel appeared and told her to add after each decade, “Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to heaven and especially those who are most in need of your mercy.” It was the prayer Our Lady taught and requested at Fatima. The nun had never heard of this additional prayer to the Rosary since there was no translation of it into Japanese.
Then in Akita as at Fatima, our Blessed Mother gave essentially the same hope for mitigating the chastisements that she warned about. At Fatima, Our Lady had already spelled out what we need to do to avert or lessen them, and she repeated the same ideas at Akita on that Oct. 13. The Rosary is the way. So is reparation. They are the solid rock foundation to build upon.
As a reminder, prior to Oct. 13, Our Lady told Sister Agnes on Aug. 3:Many men in this world afflict the Lord. I desire souls to console him to soften the anger of the Heavenly Father. I wish, with my Son, for souls who will repair by their suffering and their poverty for the sinners and ingrates.Akita’s solution is Fatima’s solution. Fatima’s simple instructions are Akita’s simple instructions. In every appearance at Fatima, Our Mother said to pray the Rosary. In Akita on Oct. 13, she again stressed the Rosary four times in that one message, including, “Pray very much the prayers of the Rosary. I alone am able still to save you from the calamities which approach. Those who place their confidence in me will be saved.”
In her July 13 appearance at Fatima, Our Lady said to “continue to pray the Rosary every day in honor of Our Lady of the Rosary, in order to obtain peace for the world and the end of the war, because only she can obtain it.”
In light of today’s religious, cultural, and political wars getting worse by the day — especially those against God’s laws and commandments — we have to ask, have we and are we really listening in sufficient numbers to our Mother? Both at Akita and Fatima?
Simple Solution and Request
Although Akita happened in a slightly different way, it is an update and reminder of Fatima.
“It is specific simplicity which makes the Fatima message so different, so practical, so hopeful,” wrote John Haffert, co-founder of the World Apostolate of Fatima. He reminded that former Fatima Bishop John Venancio compared the simple remedy given by Our Blessed Mother to Naaman the Syrian seeking a cure from the prophet Elisha in the Old Testament (2 Kings: 6-16). The instruction was simple, but at first Namaan did not want to follow it. Convinced by servants, he listened and was cured.
That is a lesson we should learn from Akita and Fatima which both give us Our Mother’s simple instructions for healing the world. Let’s do a quick review of them.
“Pray very much the prayers of the Rosary,” Our Lady instructed at Akita.
And again, “Each day recite the prayers of the Rosary. With the Rosary, pray for the Pope, the bishops and priests.”
At Fatima, she requested the Rosary at each appearance. At one she said: “Continue to say the Rosary every day in honor of Our Lady of the Rosary, to obtain the peace of the world and the end of the war, because only she can obtain it.”
Also, be consecrated to her Immaculate Heart and be enrolled in and wear the Brown Scapular as a continuous sign of that.
Make sacrifices in reparation for sin. The sacrifices Our Lady requires are those required for fulfilling our daily duties. Start the day with the Morning Offering as the foundation to do that.
As at Akita and Fatima, have a devotion to St. Joseph. It was both the Feast of St. Joseph the Worker and the First Saturday of the month. Sister Agnes’ guardian angel told her during the Mass and spiritual exercises attended by two groups gathered there, “Attach great importance to this day for the glory of God and of his holy Mother. With courage spread this devotion among the greatest number.” So have a devotion to St. Joseph.
And make the First Saturday devotions, fulfilling its simple conditions. After that, why stop? Continue the First Saturday devotions.
The basic simple trio is to pray the daily Rosary and scapular, offer the sacrifices that daily duty requires in reparation for yours and the world’s sins; do the First Saturday devotions.
“If enough people respond, the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary will be hastened and a chastisement might be averted or at least lessened by our Blessed Mother’s intercession,” wrote Haffert.
Grim Reminder
In an earlier message to Sister Agnes, our Blessed Mother also necessarily revealed, in part:In order that the world might know His anger, the Heavenly Father is preparing to inflict a great chastisement on all mankind. With my Son, I have intervened so many times to appease the wrath of the Father. I have prevented the coming of calamities by offering him the sufferings of the Son on the Cross, his Precious Blood and beloved souls who console him and form a cohort of victim souls. Prayer, penance and courageous sacrifices can soften the Father's anger.Haffert explained it, quoting John Paul II’s encyclical on the Holy Spirit: “It is because this non-forgiveness is linked, as to its cause, to non-repentance, in other words to the radical refusal to be converted” like “the person who claims to have a right to persist in evil, in any sin at all, and who thus rejects Redemption.” In the early 1990s Haffert listed areas including abortion, contraception and “denying God’s teachings to children.” The world has added tremendously to the list since then.
At the same time, Jesus has over and over sent to us his Mother Mary — Mother of Mercy, “Virgin Most Merciful,” as we pray in the Litany of Loreto — to help us and give us the simple solution. Hope remains.
Hope Still Abounds
Mary has promised us her Immaculate Heart will triumph, which can happen peacefully if we respond to her requests. Keep that in mind.
If enough people respond to Mary’s message at the two interlocked appearances, Akita and Fatima, the Triumph of her Immaculate Heart can and will be hastened, and a chastisement might be averted or greatly lessened by her intercession.
Fatima and Akita give us the simple instructions we need to follow: “Pray very much the prayers of the Rosary,” Our Lady instructed at Akita. “Each day recite the prayers of the Rosary. With the Rosary, pray for the Pope, the bishops, and priests.”
Our Lady said at Fatima: “If you do what I tell you, many souls will be saved, and there will be peace.”
And remember her final hope-filled words at Akita: “Pray very much the prayers of the Rosary. I alone am able still to save you from the calamities which approach. Those who place their confidence in me will be saved.”
Now to do our part in great numbers.
The 'abominables' have been in power for quite a long time. I refer to usurers (bankers, stock corporations, underwriters/insurers).
Any one with an interest bearing bank account cannot be a member in good standing in any religion that proscribes usury - - - which is every religion that I checked.
(Ironically, I used to post "except Satanists". A Satanist replied that they don't like Usurers, either ! LOL)
see: Ezekiel 18:13 KJV
Thank you so much Bill for this new thread. I was wondering why nobody had brought this subject forward, is it because of it's Christian epistemology .... unfashionably conservative and orthodox.
There is much to learn in the Christian message, the deeper meaning behind Golgotha, ( Rudolf Steiner on " the mystery of Golgotha") etc etc Take a look at the latest developments on the Shroud of Turin, why now in this time ? Hopefully this thread will lead to further curiosity.
There have been many Fatima references on Houman's long and important thread (with the unusual title Horus-Ra as the Archontic Alien Parasite: A follow-up interview with Maarit, which we've never changed from its 2012 original). Now we have the globally important conflict in Ukraine, which is pretty much an undeclared WWIII, it seemed important to reference Fatima in a standalone thread.Quote:
Posted by Applesprig
In my opinion, we can maybe filter out the Christian references from the prophecies. (That's in the plural: there have been many appearances that are similar in their message and warning: not just the Fatima incident over 100 year ago.) If we translate this into everyday language, there's a common theme that we may be unwise to disregard.
Here's just one more:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=mh9Fticq4Bo
We can also disregard the narrator's naive (and mainstream-influenced) political commentary, and I found the original text here. It bears reading, and I'll extract a tiny part of that below.
It currently seems highly unlikely that "Russia will march upon all the nations of Europe" — unless there's a formally declared NATO boots-on-the-ground counter-invasion of Ukraine from the west, which is theoretically possible. In that event, Russia would take its gloves off and retaliate without much mercy. It wouldn't "march on Europe" with infantry, but would simply take out European military bases and other infrastructure with missiles and air attacks, which it could very easily do."The world will be once more afflicted with great calamity; with bloody revolutions; with great earthquakes, with famines, with epidemic, with fearful hurricanes, and with floods from rivers and seas. But if men do not return to God, purifying fire will fall from the heavens, like snowstorms; on all peoples, and a great part of humanity will be destroyed.
"No longer do men speak according to the true spirit of the Gospel. The immorality of the time has reached a peak. But men do not listen to My motherly warnings, so the world must soon be purified.
"Russia will march upon all the nations of Europe, particularly Italy, and will raise her flag over the dome of St. Peter's. Italy will be severely tried by a great revolution, and Rome will be purified in blood for its many sins, especially those of impurity. The flock is about to be dispersed and the Pope must suffer greatly.
Translated into non-religious terms, the above reads like a warning that unless humanity comes to its senses — which would have to include humanity's so-called leaders, many of whom seem mind-virus-infected and deranged (or even 'evil', by any definition of the term) — then catastrophe will ensue.
Personally, I have to say that I take these warnings very seriously. There have been many of them now, in various forms (not just Marian appearances), and they all have a lot in common. I've been compiling a list, which is now quite a long one, and maybe I should share that. Each on its own might be easily disregarded or explained away, but collectively they form an alarmingly cohesive unified picture of a possible or probable near future.
:flower:
Referring to the above, I respect the wish to keep religiosity out of these prophesies, yet the two are inextricably entwined, on the one hand for mankind to mend it's ways and importantly on the other to live in the Divine Will of our Creator. The one is conditional upon the other. The "demonic" has been given a short free reign at this time to act as it will upon the affairs of mankind, we can see it, or not. However the likelihood that most of mankind would live in the Divine Will and avert retribution is slim, it seems that the dye is caste. Of course it all depends upon whether one believes that God uses nature to clean the slate.
Please do share your list of compilations rhat you are working on.
I have been curious about the many contacts between people and a Divine Feminine presence who imparts a warning. There have been incidents through history where dire predictions were made that if "man" does not turn away from evil, terrible things will happen.Quote:
Posted by Bill Ryan
The ones meeting her are called on as prophets to tell others. WE others are warned about the sins of "man".... But this is strange because we are not "mankind", just a person. How does a person change "mankind"?
WE (speaking for myself) want there to be peace, charity, virtue, care, compassion and all the ones that make the heart sing but we feel unable to make them HAPPEN in a bigger picture. Maybe we never can and it is not even the point?
The evil IMO is the very SYSTEM in which we are embedded. WE did not create the feudal hell in which we seem to live.
Just WHO is she addressing?
It is NOT (You and Me) ordinary people CREATING terrible evil. We are born into a situation and do our run of life. IMO we Mostly feel great sorrow for misdeeds and seek amends. Oppression, repression, suppression of our (IMO) natural human empathy and (IMO) innate goodness is IMO the Big issue.
It is assumed that redemption's turn around for mankind, is a group process. Yet, wherever "group" religion appears, the leadership is MOSTLY (IMO) not what they proclaim themselves to be and USE religion in just the same old evil way to do evil as the rest of the SYSTEM.
It is IMO the SYSTEM which is being called out.
It is the individual courage to break away from the system that takes a MATURE soul. There is a trajectory like the Hero's journey. It is often precipitated by a great tragedy.
It seems over and over that prophecies are only projections of possibility. Based on some ineffable nuance that shifts them, they FAIL. However, maybe they don't fail for "some", just for us.
Also, as the "revelation" of the future is always about to happen NOW for those living, could it be that the whole story is meant for whoever hears the story and thinks it "applies to me" and then sets about redeeming self through REJECTION OF EVIL> acceptance of LOVE of God and brothers/sisters.
Maybe every apocalypse and every armageddon is individual and the under all the sightings is the personal message:
Hey you human....this world will be a very difficult place and seem crushing with disaster, evil and war. The only way to change this state (for yourself) is to achieve a seeming impossible rapport with me who up to "now" was not possible because YOU had not MET me. MEET me and turn away from the created hell of man's separation. In your separated state, your energy is like a whirlwind and YOUR WORD tears down and destroys.
Until you can come back together with the alignment between "heaven" and "earth", your free will will only bring pain. YOU create the destruction in which you dwell. There is another GOSPEL of love This is the challenge In which you BECOME (W)Holy. Until THEN...
Purification. In the past, every purification led us back HERE.Quote:
"The world will be once more afflicted with great calamity; with bloody revolutions; with great earthquakes, with famines, with epidemic, with fearful hurricanes, and with floods from rivers and seas. But if men do not return to God, purifying fire will fall from the heavens, like snowstorms; on all peoples, and a great part of humanity will be destroyed.
"No longer do men speak according to the true spirit of the Gospel. The immorality of the time has reached a peak. But men do not listen to My motherly warnings, so the world must soon be purified.
Maybe I am mistaken but I don't think that EVERYONE is going to be punished all in a lump of "mankind" because the the lowest common denominator of evil exists. Does anyone actually choose evil?
Big questions.
All I'd suggest here is that the concept of 'evil' (which sometimes can be directly observed in action) is quite independent of any religious or even spiritual faith or commitment. Few humans, hardcore atheists included, would deny its existence, even in just pragmatic terms.Quote:
Posted by Applesprig
Dr Bill Deagle (see this thread: Dr Bill Deagle's December 2006 Granada Forum Lecture) described 'evil' as the agenda of transdimensional demonic entities, which I'd say is entirely accurate. And in my opinion Jay Weidner, in his early work on the Archons (a term first used by early Gnostic Christians), was also describing the same influence.Quote:
Posted by Applesprig
I increasingly think I should, but maybe in a new standalone thread. My list extends now to nearly 30 items, ranging from well-known prophecies, through remote viewing reports, to remarkable but very worrying subjective individual experiences.Quote:
Posted by Applesprig
There appear to be two categories of potential threat, both in tandem: nuclear war, and some kind of separate but cataclysmic global natural disaster. Either alone might 'cleanse' the active evil influences from the planet, but like the Great Flood (which many agree was a historical global event very approximately 12,500 years ago) would necessarily destroy almost everything else as well, leaving humanity to reboot and begin again.
I think it might be instructive to look at the problem from a different perspective.
Rather than viewing humanity's survivability on this planet in terms of "good" or "evil", what if we look at it all from the POV of "sustainability", which I think it's safe to say, is more the POV of Nature.
From there, we could conclude that the most "primitive" tribes, which are about the only humans who are currently living a truly sustainable existence, are actually more successful in some ways than the highly developed societies.
And though they don't have sophisticated devices to instruct them as to when cataclysmic events might occur, it seems that they often foresee such things instinctively or intuitively, inasmuch as they are the source of many accurate prophecies about such events.
They also have counterparts--individuals in the developed societies who are insightful enough to know that this cycle of humanity's evolution on Earth is about to end and a new one begin, and are preparing for it as best they can.
...Knowing that in many ways, it will be necessary to reboot and begin again, and also working to make that new start as doable, as well as sustainable, as possible.
Of course, TPTB are also busy making their own preparations, though their goals are more about preserving as much as they can of their power as it manifests in the present paradigm, which is not the same thing at all, and may not work to their practical advantage.
If the prophecy from the Book of Revelations (sourced from a very tribal people) is accurate, there will be yet another "showdown" between these two groups in another thousand years, and only then will the new paradigm really take root.
A thousand years being but a blink of the eye from Creation's perspective.
I think the fire raining from the sky described in the Fatima prophecies would be from missiles or possibly a nuclear event.
And that would hamper many attempts to prepare for the much more cataclysmic fire which will come from the Sun's micronova.
The first is preventable, but the second is not, at least not at this juncture.
I really appreciate this discussion - thank you! I've spent much of today watching and reflecting upon it.
I came across a playlist of the Art Bell interviews with Father Malachi Martin. This list I haven't listened to yet, and it looks like some of the discussion are quite long, 2-3 hours. I reckon they will be fascinating!
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...mrfj9wxKih99Hy
Wow what a treasure! I didn't need to reply but it makes it easier for me to find this post later when I have time to listen :handshake:Quote:
Posted by Bassplayer1
Altogether the Bell/Martin link goes to over 20 hours of discussion.
If anyone has time to preview it, it would be great to get a synopsis here.
Anyone who would like to know more about the micronova event that has been the natural cause of "fire from the sky", as it has in ages past, this is a great resource:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...XIVdZ-abyJXaO1
Quote:
Posted by Bassplayer1
You may find it of interest when considering the Marian apparitions to revisit this thread by Mecklenberger:Quote:
Posted by Bill Ryan
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/sho...world-religion
Fatima and Akita are referenced, but also the less well known Heede appearances, as well as some interesting research on reported instances going back to the era of the Templars and beyond. The thread speaks to the identity of this entity, which may not be as straightforward as some believe?
Yes, I'd really appreciate that. :highfive: I strongly suspect there's a lot of duplication and overlap, so it may not be a discouraging amount of material. And if there are any transcripts anywhere, those make keywords and key phrases far easier to search. ("Fire from the Sky", etc.)Quote:
Posted by onawah