Could you define what you mean by alt-right? From my point of view 'groypers', who follow Nick Fuentes, are what I might personally call alt-right, their goal: target the "fake right". But in and around poorly worded posts, the term alt-right gets banded around and applied liberally to liberals too now days. Thank you :)Quote:
Posted by AutumnW
delete it all.
As from personal observation, I can second Kamikazes post. The problems we have here in Sweden you see, are not about race. Its about culture. When cultures clash the resentment one might feel towards another is not about skin colour, its about difference in values and ideas. I do think that its different in the states though since its a country that was built on immigration and has it in its foundation. Our countries are very different though we have a common enemy. All countries and all free humans have the same enemy, its just a shame that just a handful are aware of the fact.
The true racists of this world are judgmental people that are very afraid and seek to belong to a group and they find skin colour to be the divider between "us and them". You can find the same people everywhere labelling things in "us and them" other ways, like political religious or between the sexes, all are of course wrong and mislead blinded by their fear.
I´m actually very tired of this game. Personally I have always seen interaction as a "you and me" thing. If a person is a douchebag I dont excuse it because of gender or skin coulour. I know this is herecy in the leftist/marxistcamp, and I suffer greatly from it. Their invasive propaganda has made even hardcore freethinking people like me to activate an innner censor while speaking my mind. Trying to heal from it.
As a final note to the Original poster of this thread Id like to extend my condoleances. You suffer from the politics and actions of our leaders. Trust me, you are not alone. There are like billions of others there with you. Not to diminish what you experience and the dangers you and loved ones might face. I wish you the best of luck i truly do. I think many of us will experience differing kinds of oppression and preassure very soon, of great magnitude. But we will make it through, and come out like diamonds shaped from the pressure of the rocks that have been grinding us to perfection, shining bright and true.
Hi Autumn,Quote:
Posted by AutumnW
I'm not sure I would agree with this... with the exception of one members-only thread, which one might loosely call alt-right (but even that would be a stretch) what does this term even mean? Richard Spencer, a self-proclaimed White Nationalist coined the term; I'm assuming you're not using the term with the same brush stroke as he did?
The tenor I see is on this forum on the topic of politics is a critical examination, with intelligent opinion and commentary, of a very divisive and polarizing climate. These are complicated issues and charged topics and we are amid a unique political milieu. So I do understand how some comments and observations may be misinterpreted.
If you are referring to my post above I would emphatically assure you and others that my comments are not from an alt-right perspective, so far as I understand the term anyway.
As an objective observer, like a photographer or reporter, I was pointing out to Praxis the politics of the ban as I understand it (that is, if we assume the executive order was not motivated to stop COVID-19, which the topic of the thread implies). I was also careful to point out that taking a "snap shot" as a historian might shouldn't imply the photographer is "supporting" the contents of her/his photograph. I'm merely trying to understand it, and in so doing, pass on my understanding to Praxis and others.
The issue of closing the boarder is a complicated political issue and if we are really concerned with getting at the truth, which I believe is the ultimate objective of this platform--if we truly want to understand the world we're living in and not the one propagandists promoting division want us to understand, I would humbly submit we need to avoid oversimplifying our understanding down to two dimensions. Of course this is just my perspective and understanding of things. I welcome any counter perspectives if it might help me achieve resolution.
My main point to Praxis was to point out why the ban does not render down to race or to identity politics. That methodology of understanding the world is convenient for the agenda of identity politics, but inconvenient to the truth. If this observation categorizes me as alt-right than I guess I'll own it (uncomfortably); I firmly believe it.
The problem I see with discussions like this is we can no longer comment on political reality objectively without labels and identity politics watering down our understanding of what the hell is going on in the world. Perhaps that is by design and why there is so much lack of real understanding and division and anger between people.
Kind Regards,
T Smith
delete it all.
I would suspect this ban only affects people currently applying for visas to travel to and stay in the US, rather than those who are already in the US, so I would assume Praxis (and hope) you and your family are safe.
He said it would only be a temporary ban - you need to hold him to that. He couldn't possibly get away with an indefinite ban, that would be political suicide. I agree with T Smith, I don't think this is motivated by race, that doesn't stack up at all. Trump gets flamed automatically and immediately for whatever he says and does. One minute he's criticised for implementing a travel ban to China, they called it 'xenophobic'. Next he's criticised by the same people for not acting sooner. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. Believe me I have plenty of doubts and suspicions, I'm not his biggest fan by any means, particularly of his rhetoric. But just because I don't think he's a white supremacist (by any stretch) or the anti-christ, I risk being labelled 'alt-right'. Not nice and not fair.
If anything, this following legislation might have had something to do with Trump's decision. There is after all a feared 'second wave' of this virus to think about.
"Whenever the Surgeon General determines that by reason of the existence of any communicable disease in a foreign country there is serious danger of the introduction of such disease into the United States, and that this danger is so increased by the introduction of persons or property from such country that a suspension of the right to introduce such persons and property is required in the interest of the public health, the Surgeon General, in accordance with regulations approved by the President, shall have the power to prohibit, in whole or in part, the introduction of persons and property from such countries or places as he shall designate in order to avert such danger, and for such period of time as he may deem necessary for such purpose."
(July 1, 1944, ch. 373, title III, § 362, 58 Stat. 704.)
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/265
Two pro-Trump messages and suddenly it's "ugly?" That actually is the problem. To agree with Trump is "ugly." Now THAT is fascism!Quote:
Posted by AutumnW
Quote:
Posted by TomKatTwo pro-Trump messages and suddenly it's "ugly?" That actually is the problem. To agree with Trump is "ugly." Now THAT is fascism!Quote:
Posted by AutumnW
I don't think that word means what you think it means.
Source: Wikipedia
Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I, before spreading to other European countries. Opposed to liberalism, Marxism, and anarchism, fascism is placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum.
[...]
Source: Wikipedia
Seems to me identity politics and intersectionality are both being strangled by reality (as they should be) currently.Quote:
Posted by T Smith
and yes, it does seem by design to me, or at least encouraged by design.
Quote:
Posted by Frank VQuote:
Posted by TomKat
I don't think that word means what you think it means.
Source: Wikipedia
Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I, before spreading to other European countries. Opposed to liberalism, Marxism, and anarchism, fascism is placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum.
[...]
Source: Wikipedia
Socialism is the over arching philosophy, Communism is the far LEFT of Socialism, Fascism is the far RIGHT of Socialism.
They are both authoritarian heavy on government branches of the same philosophy (IE, both do discourage free speech and would attempt to block ideas that counter their own, much like Tom is referring to (IMO)).
Quote:
Posted by TargeTQuote:
Posted by Frank VQuote:
Posted by TomKat
I don't think that word means what you think it means.
Source: Wikipedia
Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I, before spreading to other European countries. Opposed to liberalism, Marxism, and anarchism, fascism is placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum.
[...]
Source: Wikipedia
Socialism is the over arching philosophy, Communism is the far LEFT of Socialism, Fascism is the far RIGHT of Socialism.
They are both authoritarian heavy on government branches of the same philosophy (IE, both do discourage free speech and would attempt to block ideas that counter their own, much like Tom is referring to (IMO)).
If I could hand out an award for the most ingeniously concocted political nonsense I had ever heard, I'd be giving it to you right now. :first:
;)
The problem is fascism means many different things to many people, including historians and political scientists. This is another charged term we bandy about without drilling down to agree on a precise meaning. Even the standard wikipedia definition is vague and wide in scope and without consensus.
I tend to understand fascism how Mussolini did--who incidently coined and invented the term (and arguably) the ideology itself. According to Mussolini, fascism is the merger or marriage between State and corporate power.
I am aware of the various academic definitions of fascism, which tends to focus on the ideology of fascist regimes instead of the nature of the power structure itself.
But so as far as I understand it, fascists can come from the left or right or anywhere in-between as long as the underlying power structure is some form of corporatism enforced by State, or visa versa.
Looks like this was all just a political maneuver?
Thank you, I but stand on the shoulders of giants.Quote:
Posted by Frank V
https://finance.townhall.com/columni...proof-n2536334Quote:
Posted by people_smarter_than_I
Thank you as well 🙏🦢🙏Quote:
Posted by Star MarinerAgreed, Tintin!
And by the way, love this. Most applicable :)
Quote:
Posted by Tintin
The suspension is temporary( 2 months) as stated in current news releases and concerns only those outside of the US seeking permanent residency in US.
It does not affect other visa protocols, so far.
I suppose that under the circumstances of current epidemics the state apparatus is humanly overwhelmed so who would be so insentient to wish to burden it more.
Makes big headlines but not a catastrophy. Unless you’re Mexican of course.
I would have thought the point would be obvious-- that the situation on the borders has gotten so out of control with criminal activity of all kinds that focus needs to be concentrated on that, rather than legal immigration, until things are more under control.
Some Mexicans, like all other peoples, are lovely and some aren't.
Where did I say otherwise?
I was simply illustrating my point with an example.
Quote:
Posted by AutumnW
It applies to this thread because it again indicates Trumps motivation is to stop the the Deep State (right) sources of funding from drugs (just one source) . Partial closing of the boarders is politically motivated as T Smith points out. All countries have immigration polices and without them it leaves countries vulnerable. These are basic principles of politics and how the Matrix works.Quote:
Posted by AutumnW
Hello Praxis,
I have to agree with Target, you are fully unaware of America military, and the way that they do things, and the very good reasons for why this is a good thing right now.. As the president is the "commander in chief..., and has declared war" It is a very wise thing to do.. We are at war.. As such? Securing your borders, Banning others from coming in, is a tactical move, not a personal one. I think you are lacking a bigger picture... Are you not aware that we are now "Live" when coming near Iranian forces? Meaning we have been authorizes to fire at will, anyone trying hostile maneuvers against American Navy personnel?
If you look at other things happening around you in the world, and try very hard to put them into a larger picture. The best way to fight an enemy without even touching them, is to starve them out. We are no longer needing oil, who does this affect? CHINA and IRAN... Why? Because China buys oil from Iran, and then refines it fuel and ships it out to others.. We are now in talks with Russia Saudia Arabia, and Mexico of all people, to keep the oil prices low.. Mexico is not our enemy here.. We know it, they know it.. With each new culture we have different ways of doing things and that alone would alter how we each individually see a topic. Even within our own countries regionally..
We're breaking the cartels up.. COLLECTIVELY... We're breaking up corrupt organizations.. And we are working with Saudi Arabia to do this as well.. Right now isn't the time to be building new housing for immigrants.. And we have been hit hard with fires reducing our already dwindling supplies of homes for Americans.. We're just asking people to stay where they are until we are ready to take them in, and have a place for them to actually go.. And the ability to care for them. Otherwise you collapse a very refined system meant to accommodate everyone. Overwhelm it, no one benefits.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...n-trump-putin/
And we are also breaking up the corrupted gangs, and medical establishments that engage in .. Organ harvesting, drug trafficking, and the trafficking of people.... In fact, we have been doing sting operations for quite some time in many other nations INCLUDING working with Mexico on such issues. I am not saying Mexico is to blame for all the human trafficking, it happens everywhere and there must be a market for it here, or they wouldn't bring people here, so our hands are just as dirty. But this isn't about me or you, it's whats best for EVERYONE in my opinion. For today at least.
We're at war here my friend.. Now isn't the time to pull a "hate" card, when this country is truly trying to "right" some very bad things..
You hit the American borders as your topic of conversation,, so let me ask you.. Are you aware that most people trafficked into America could be HELPED, if forced to try to make their way through a border crossing? They could possibly make it back home, if the traffickers are caught by trained agents. But when they're carried through the desert at night?? That chance is gone.. And the only hope they have is that their captor makes a mistake..
When asked? Many people that have been rescued said they WISHED there was a forced passage through into America, as that would have given them one last opportunity to be returned to their families.
Not only that, Many of these individuals are never given proper medical care, (As they may alert someone to their situation), and as such, they can and do have the capability to use these individuals as catalysts for things such as the pandemic we are facing now..
Those trafficked in America have little to no chance of being helped, as the system is designed to punish those that are here illegally, rather than help them.. So they don't look for help once they're here... And they're making note of that.. And trying to fix it.
While I hesitate to call your post racist? I will suggest that it is being made from a perspective of a narrow band of prception about the real reasons we are putting up border walls. And cultures, not race define those beliefs.. There are many reasons they're doing it.. And I am sure many could find reasons not to..
I don't know if you're aware, but we're facing a pandemic/war here. It isn't the time to be guessing on supply chains, transportation, etc. as such it is paramount they stop new traffic to get the true numbers of things they need.
People need to get out of the fear porn, and truly educate themselves to the nature of the environment that we are living in. And our neighbors. And I hope that you do begin to broaden your ideas of what you think is going on. Listening to one side, well that isn't helping anyone.
What I do is look at a topic then actively look for a rebuttal.. Why it could be seen as the opposite. We are easily misled.. One headlines works for most folks...
"Trump is halting immigration, a threat to our Constitutional rights".. That is enough to turn a massive amount of the population AGAINST someone rather quickly. But when you begin to dig deeper and you see why it is happening.. It sure makes much more sense, and you begin to shun the sensationalism.
This action also forces Mexico to deal with the problem as well.. And it keeps the traffickers in one place.. Easier to find.... And it makes it a bit easier to battle, as now they can focus on those people trafficking others, in one area.. And the customers on his end... .Rather than trying to catch them one at a time.. It is much larger than just one issue..
But you are entitled to your opinion. Thank you for expressing it.
I want to add.. About populations and heritage.. (I won 't say race)...
The entire planet has been immigrating and shifting since the beginning of time.. As you pointed out Praxis.... We (Americans) came here and took land from Natives, etc... I did not do that.. I am a result of that... ALL nations partook in that, as you so eloquently pointed out....As they're all represented here.. And those native's were in many cases more hostile than those coming here...
There was black slavery in America until we all rose up and said "No More".. The indian nations, while given the short end of the stick in past times, have integrated into our societies, yet most still want special rights. "Special laws for them.. Based upon their heritage".. Special lands, Special casinos.. And America concedes out of fear of being labeled insensitive....
How many generations are going to be punished for slavery, and wars between settlers and indians? Carrying the hatred from our forefathers serves us no useful purpose. This is what we have now.. We need to stop asking for "Reparations" for things we never even lived through, and work together as a whole.. Pointing fingers does nothing but create more animosity. I AM SO HAPPY FOR YOU that your wife was able to immigrate here, rather than be carried here as a slave in the night.. From ANY other country..
Pointing a finger at me and telling me that I am somehow to blame for this? Serves no useful purpose. I am part Irish and part Cherokee.. Go ahead.. tell me I don't care.. I know my heritage.. Do I ask for a card at the local tribal medical center? NO... Why not? Because I think it is ridiculous that these people are living as "Americans" but believe that because they have some genetic marker in their blood that allows them some special considerations when it comes to reduced medical care.
I am an American, and live as one FULLY... Treating others Americans as my family.. one tribe. And I feel this way about the whole world, but it is difficult when we have borders not to find solutions to help all tribes. It's funny,. no one wants one world government, yet they want the world to behave as if there are no borders.. You can't have both... And it comes down to trust..
My family makes sure the shores of this nation are safe, they offer up their lives for it.. So we ALL can be safe as one. I find it very disrespectful for anyone living in America to benefit from such sacrifices then expect special treatments above and beyond those willing to die to keep this place free... If we treated each other in the whole world this way? No one expecting special treatments? We could have a united world.. Yet it isn't that simple is it?
Behaving as some "Native's" do? Goes against everything ancient tribal cultures were taught, yet they claim that is the heritage and culture they're somehow protecting?
Also, you are starting an argument about something that has yet to even happen.. As you suggest.. to read it again, I ask the same thing.. Trump had "proposed" suspending immigration, at the time of the start of this thread, he had not actually done it, and suspend does not men permanently terminate.
Just my opinion. As I think all sides should be heard.
We now have vastly more numbers of Americans unemployed, and thus more people becoming dependent on the government and charities, non-profits, etc for their very existence.
The economy is in terrible shape, and millions of Americans were already starving, living on the streets, without medical care or any hope at all.
Not only are we at war, we are in the beginning of a revolution within our own borders.
Admitting more and more immigrants is not going to help resolve this situation, but will only make matters worse, as has been amply demonstrated in other countries with similar issues.
If the countries which have been holding it together to at least some degree crumble into chaos, there will no place left to turn for anyone.
Yeah. One pro-Trump message would be enough. And one pro-Hillary neo-liberal post would be enough to qualify as alt right nonsense, actually. And it is tremendously ugly, because they both arise out of a hermetically sealed echo chamber. It's a massive misdirection of anger. If you want to be angry be angry that you don't have an efficient socialist system running smoothly, delivering your checks on time, while you are slowly allowed to go back to work.Quote:
Posted by TomKatTwo pro-Trump messages and suddenly it's "ugly?" That actually is the problem. To agree with Trump is "ugly." Now THAT is fascism!Quote:
Posted by AutumnW
The libertarian underpinnings of cowboy capitalism that devolves into crony capitalism (socialism for corporate elites) is out of date. And when that system is enforced onto other countries, whose citizens then have to flee because they are being bombed into submission, several different problems arise. One being the understandable clash of cultures. Venezuela is going through it now. Won't be long before they are forcefully occupied.
Part of that game is to conflate socialism with fascism and communism. So whenever the term socialism arises, it automatically carries with it a sour taste. Don't fall for it. The military has taken and taken and taken from you. All they give back is pain and they call it "freedom."
The clash of cultures is real and the job loss is real enough too, for those whose ancestors immigrated within the last hundred years, give or take. Ask yourself why those from "****hole" countries, as Trump describes them, feel they have to flee or marry outside of their own country to leave horrible living conditions. It's because they are colonists of white, generally Northern European people who have laid waste to their countries.
I don't like your scale. Put anarchy (no govt) on the left and totalitarian govt on the right, and you'll see that both communism and fascism are forms of totalitarianism on the right. It's silly to pretend that they are opposites, one being on the left and one on the right.Quote:
Posted by Frank V
Thank you AutumnM!(you rock!) I am Mexican and new to PA.. and you can’t even imagine the amount of times I get to experience this label on me my family etc, this “association” of my race with drug dealers, rapist, etc.. I wonder were or from who they got this? As if We (the rest of the world) would associated “White Americans” with addicts. If there is no demand..well probably no supply. THIS types of associations is precisely WHY the author of the OP feels aggravated for this administration’s decision (even though There is a double agenda that has nothing to do with COVID) but we cannot come here and generalize! SOOO I INVITE YOU to make yourselves this question, is this virus so small that is not a threat so we can open up??? Or is it sooooo dangerous that we need to close the borders.????
As I agree with T smith on ALL, we need to keep ourselves alert of information that blinds us or modifies our social Interactions.. otherwise THEY WIN, the more divided, the more hate, the less human being we become, easy targets, Weak minds. FLY HIGH AVALONIANS!
As for the author of this thread.. Praxis, I am really sorry you feel this way, and that you probably vented in the wrong place with the wrong people.. I just wanted to let you know.. I feel you, I know where you come from, I am stuck in the middle of my process too.. and I do not feel safe anymore here.. and this is a lot to say because I come from “the most violent city in Mexico” Cd. Juárez but this helped me on one thing, I WILL NOT LOOSE HOPE NOR MY FAITH.