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Quote:
Posted by gripreaper
Quote:
Posted by RedeZra
Fallen angels and spirits means that these souls fell from the top of the power pyramid and needed to subjugate themselves to those at the top in order to redeem their place in the hierarchy?
there is a hierarchy in Heaven and God is at the Top
there is a hierarchy in Hell and the devil is at the top
there is a hierarchy in our world and the devil is at the top
but we don't have to serve him
we got choice
This thread is about Enlightenment, a direct and succinct account of what occurs. The context implicit in this references the ability for each of us to exercise our free will to choose and to go within and access that power. To go within and find the still point and the state of peace and joy, without abrogating our power or adhering to religious dogma. Also implicit in this context, is the lack of divisiveness, separation, and any systems or structures which are designed to subjugate or enslave the individual in belief systems, or the need for outside intervention, either through saviors, blood sacrifices, abrogation of one’s power, or rules and regulations.Quote:
Posted by RedeZra
Implicit in the religious paradigm is the notion that we are damaged goods, fallen from grace and severed from spirit, in need of redemption which can only be achieved through subjugation to this hierarchical pyramid of yours, an abrogation of one’s personal will and it concert with the patriarchal structure.
You could not even take one breath or one step severed from source, and the Hegelian dialectic of “divide and conquer” has no place in spiritual enlightenment, or the context of this thread. Severing the opposite energies from source falls into this dialectic, and is implicit in hierarchy. I will say it again, there is no hierarchy is spirit. All is one and in unity, without duality or separation, or divisiveness.
You have your own thread called “the Bible” where you can discuss the context of your hierarchical pyramid scheme, and to come in here and try to hijack this thread and change the context of the discussion rubs me the wrong way. Sorry to be so blunt, but this thread is about enlightenment, not about discussing religious dogma couched in the shroud of spirituality.
i'm sorry but you don't get enlightenmentQuote:
Posted by gripreaper
it's a gift from God
This reminds me of a story from Christ about a man who sells everything in order to buy this property where he found the treasure...Quote:
Posted by meeradasEv'rything.Quote:
Posted by markpierre
This is our true treasure and that`s what was meant when spoken about building your treasure in heaven...
The point is you can't separate it. You can't be an observer without disengaging from it. And real love is dispassionate, so is compassion. The experience of it will modify your opinion. But you can't do that willingly until you recognize that 'passion' has an agenda,Quote:
Posted by Oouthere
though you can experience it and you probably have.
Human love is an emotion. It demands an outcome. That's how you're able to distinguish between desirable and undesirable. Love the 'evil' that plays it's part in the adjustment of mind from time to eternity.
'God' couldn't recognize itself as part evil, that's what dualistic is. That's what we're trying to adjust. You can't adjust it if you won't accept it as a barrier.
Speaking of what we're willing to sacrifice to enter into totality, that's a good example.
I was in 17th century Europe, and apparently was involved in a furious saber duel with an opponent in some sort of endgame in the midst of a larger conflict. The thrusts, slicing, and paring had been going on for a while, and we both had gashes and cuts, and were nearing exhaustion. Still, I was confident of the outcome, and I could see desperation growing in his eyes. Suddenly, I was he, looking at what had just been me! We both paused for a long moment, staring into each other's eyes, with the dawning recognition that neither one of us were what we had presumed, and that there was something beyond comprehension going on here - something like just one being, playing two roles simultaneously!
I had hardly begun to come to terms with this realization when I found myself in some indeterminate time, somewhere in Asia, in the midst of some kind of Tantric sexual ritual. I was seated in a lotus posture, while an incredibly beautiful and serene "goddess" sat astride me, coupling in barely perceptible but excruciatingly pleasurable genital motions which vibrated throughout my entire being, igniting an inner flame which rose from the base up my spine and eventually out through the top of my head, where her complimentary flame melted in mine, and we were engulfed in radiant white light.
This seemed endless, until I opened my eyes and realized that I was the female, looking into the eyes of the male I had been, and I was filled with his/my organ, and I was holding him in the arms of my heart with unbearable love and surrender, and tears were flowing down my cheeks at the beauty of our union.
I was about to cry out in an urgent mounting ecstasy, when suddenly I was in a sedan, and it was 1922 (for some reason I remember that date?), and my companion/guide was telling me to observe the dream-like nature of this existence. I had no argument by this time, and then I was told to notice this thing about death, and immediately we plunged through a railing along the Coastal Highway and calmly watched the beach and rocks several hundred feet below coming up on us as if in slow motion, until we crashed into the base of the cliff, and nothing at all had changed, except that now I was in some sort of prison yard, being circled by a gang of grinning sociopaths.
There was no escape, and soon I was being beaten to a bloody pulp, but curiously felt no pain, and after awhile, I realized I had to get up and go to the bathroom. When I returned to bed, I found myself in an urgent rush to make a 2 PM flight from San Francisco to Boston, but I kept getting interrupted on my way to the airport by an odd collection of characters. When I finally got to the check-in desk, an attendant told me that I had missed my flight, and must attend a 2-hour seminar on being late for flights, followed by a test to make sure I undestood just how irresponsible I had been. When I questioned the fellow on whether he was an actual airline employee, he said "No."
Feeling a bit flustered, I decided to go to the bar and await the next flight out, but when I got there, all the patrons were meditating in a lovely garden-like setting. Strange and beautiful flowers were gently swaying in a breeze from some indeterminate source, and somehow it was communicated to me that all the patrons were Siddhas, and together they were in the process of creating whole galaxies on the causal plane. I was very happy with this turn of events, and stayed there for what seemed like an eternity, but when I got up to make tea, I found myself in my own kitchen, and realized intuitively that I had not won the Mega Millions lottery.
Now I seem to be typing out this post, and my question for the readers of this thread would be: which one of these characters gets enlightened?
Funny thing is...if you sacifice everything then everything is given....lol
Rich
Exactly!Quote:
Posted by Oouthere
It takes a moment of absolute trust for you to leap in. Rest is history.
I'm sure he was laughing when he wrote it. - markpierre
Hi Mark,
This was written whilst in a state approaching the Absolute. As nothing separate can be expressed whilst fully absorbed in Reality, just enough of the relative self was engaged to communicate the awakening as clearly as possible, with the least “interference” from the relative mind. Hence it took approx 3 hours to type. To an outside observer, I would have looked like a blissed out monkey at the keyboard, lol.
Thankyou for your excellent comments. Many speak from what they have learned or read, rather than realized. It is clear you speak of that which you have realized.
what most men think of as Self is just self or mind imaginations
mind must go if Self is to be realized - RedeZra
Hi Rez,
Excellent, this happens exactly ultimately, but in the earlier stages, one need only not identify with thoughts. As Being or Awareness moves to the forefront, thoughts diminish spontaneously.
Suffering is real while in a human mind and human consciousness, else you would have no compassion when you see someone that is suffering. You care to walk by a child with a bone sticking through the skin and tell him/her that it does not hurt and continue walking on your way?
Also, I may be taking this incorrectly but while in the experience (at least mine), there was not an overpowering love involved - Oouthere
Hi Oouthere,
Yes, suffering is relatively real while you are dreaming you are “in” a human mind. Absolutely however it is unreal, for you never really were a separate entity. It is like when you have a nightmare. The suffering is very real while you dream, but when you awaken, you see it was just a dream.
Absolute love, which occurs at enlightenment, and which is manifest in the continuing relative expression, ie in my case “tim”, until the complete absorption in the Self (transcendence/ascension to heaven/mahasamadhi/etc), acts in harmony with the totality. It loves all for it is all. So it would “assist” the injured child in the most appropriate way.
But the greatest assistance is to inspire “others” to awaken. Mind is the root of suffering, so why trim the branches (which grow back), when you can cut the root. True healing is spiritual, physical healing is temporary.
Enlightenment is fully appreciating the fact that there is no such thing as enlightenment.
No human has ever been enlightened, nor are we here to "get enlightened".
We're here to learn how to do the right thing (imho). - another bob
Hi Bob,
Your first sentence is true in the absolute sense, your real Self cannot become enlightened, for it is that already, but in a relative sense, we are dealing with “individuals”, who “attain” enlightenment when the illusory ego, a creation of the mind, dissolves.
To mix absolute and relative terminology can be confusing for “those” still caught up in the dream of separate identity. The aim of the OP is to clarify the true state of awakening from direct experience for those earnestly and genuinely seeking it. Much confusion arises in religion/spirituality from teachers whose understanding is based on knowledge instead of realization ie Nicodemus (John Ch 3) Gripreapers excellent comments cover this beautifully.
Absolutely we are not “here” and there is no “right” thing. But yes, relatively there is a right and wrong, hence enlightened teachers counsel those who have yet to awaken to “do unto others as you would have them do unto you” - Yeshua, or for more advanced seekers “those others, they are you” - Siddhartha
Namaste
tim
Quote:
Posted by tim
Hiya Tim!
I wasn't just talking about the absolute sense, but it is true even in the relative sense. No human beings have ever attained enlightenment. Even in the Buddhist scriptures, you will find that Sakyamuni Buddha did not awaken here, but on another world in a higher dimension, and what appeared here was more like an avatar in a video game. No foolin'! Those great beings to whom we attribute such attainment actually came in with their lights already on, so to speak. This is not that kind of place -- it's a stage filled with props on which we are performing. That's why all this fuss about enlightenment is so silly, and actually distracting from what we're really about.
Once on the so-called other side, a few notches up in awareness, and this will become self-evident. In fact, the world of which you are now aware is just as unreal as the world in which you dream. You may believe you have some sense of this, but you don't. You can't.
We did not incarnate in this realm to get enlightened, but to have the experience of being human. In the midst of that experience, we need to learn how to behave, and not to go chasing some second-hand concept of enlightenment. Enlightenment is what we already are, but we submit to a kind of amnesia in order for the human experience to seem real. We are not even human beings, but rather, as extensions of Source, we occupy human vehicles in order to acquire certain experiences that are particular to humans, and that Source wishes to enjoy.
I could go into a lot more detail, but maybe that's enough to chew on for now.
:yo:
Well, after reading many words, a little relaxation maybe, enjoy. LOL
https://youtube.com/watch?v=s6VaeFCxta8
https://youtube.com/watch?v=s6VaeFCxta8
All is well
Jorr
I wasn't just talking about the absolute sense, but it is true even in the relative sense. No human beings have ever attained enlightenment. Even in the Buddhist scriptures, you will find that Sakyamuni Buddha did not awaken here, but on another world in a higher dimension, and what appeared here was more like an avatar in a video game. No foolin'! Those great beings to whom we attribute such attainment actually came in with their lights already on, so to speak. - bob
Hi Bob,
From here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha#Enlightenment
According to the early Buddhist texts,[39] after realizing that meditative jhana was the right path to awakening, but that extreme asceticism didn't work, Gautama discovered what Buddhists call the Middle Way[39]—a path of moderation away from the extremes of self-indulgence and self-mortification.[39] In a famous incident, after becoming starved and weakened, he is said to have accepted milk and rice pudding from a village girl named Sujata.[40] Such was his emaciated appearance that she wrongly believed him to be a spirit that had granted her a wish.[40]
Following this incident, Gautama was famously seated under a pipal tree—now known as the Bodhi tree—in Bodh Gaya, India, when he vowed never to arise until he had found the truth.[41] Kaundinya and four other companions, believing that he had abandoned his search and become undisciplined, left. After a reputed 49 days of meditation, at the age of 35, he is said to have attained Enlightenment.[41][42] From that time, Gautama was known to his followers as the Buddha or "Awakened One" ("Buddha" is also sometimes translated as "The Enlightened One"). He is often referred to in Buddhism as Shakyamuni Buddha, or "The Awakened One of the Shakya Clan."
According to Buddhism, at the time of his awakening he realized complete insight into the cause of suffering, and the steps necessary to eliminate it. These discoveries became known as the "Four Noble Truths",[42] which are at the heart of Buddhist teaching. Through mastery of these truths, a state of supreme liberation, or Nirvana, is believed to be possible for any being. The Buddha described Nirvāna as the perfect peace of a mind that's free from ignorance, greed, hatred and other afflictive states,[42] or "defilements" (kilesas). Nirvana is also regarded as the "end of the world", in that no personal identity or boundaries of the mind remain.
Perhaps you could share which scriptures state that Siddhartha did not awaken on this planet. It may be reasonable metaphorically to say he awakened to a higher dimension ie the undifferentiated Self, however your premise that no human being can awaken here is perhaps unhelpful to genuine seekers reading this thread.
If Siddhartha came in with his lights on, as you suggest, where was the need to practice austerities to the degree which he did, reportedly nearly starving himself to death prior to discovering the middle way?
we need to learn how to behave, and not to go chasing some second-hand concept of enlightenment. - bob
All behaviour is relative. Eating a chicken from your point of view might be right, but it is hardly right from the chicken’s point of view.
Indeed, one should not rely on second hand views concerning enlightenment. A view confirmed by Buddha;
Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it. - Kalama Sutta.
Which is why this thread is about a direct account of what has been experienced, not something that was read about, or learned secondhand from a teacher, etc.
Once on the so-called other side, a few notches up in awareness, and this will become self-evident. In fact, the world of which you are now aware is just as unreal as the world in which you dream. You may believe you have some sense of this, but you don't. You can't. - bob
Naturally I respect your right to believe I am mistaken, the only one you can truly confirm is enlightened is yourself.
From the direct experience of awakening it was realized there are no notches or separate levels in absolute Self/Awareness/Being, levels exist in the mind only. At least we agree that the states of waking, sleep and dreaming are transient phenomena, which come and go, as does the ego which appears as the subject within these states. All of these, however, are dependent on the substrate reality of the Self, which is realized upon attaining turiya, and resolved finally in turiyatita.
Q: Are there levels of awareness?
M: There are levels in consciousness, but not in awareness. It is of one block, homogeneous. Its reflection in the mind is love and understanding. There are levels of clarity in understanding and intensity in love, but not in their source. The source is simple and single, but its gifts are infinite. Only do not take the gifts for the source. Realize yourself as the source and not as the river; that is all. - Nisargadatta, I Am That
Now you may argue that turiya and turiyatita are different levels, however this paradox is best experienced rather than understood. This thread is meant to inspire and encourage seekers to practice their chosen path/sadhana, not to engage in philosophical, metaphysical or existential discussion.
Thanks for sharing your perspective, your views are always welcome.
Hiya Tim!Quote:
Posted by tim
That's exactly why I offered the comments that I did, to suggest that people question the search itself!
As I previously indicated, I've left enough to chew on, and will stand by that.
PS: Just one note on Buddhism, please reference the 3 Kayas -- the Nirmanakaya being the "emanation body" of Shakyamuni Buddha, which appeared to go through a long sadhana, only to demonstrate for the sake of truth the futility of that process of seeking and mental manipulation involved in grasping for that which one already is and has always been.
Does that mean one should just give up the struggle? Well, as Sri Nisargadatta noted,
"There are no conditions to fulfill. There is nothing to be done, nothing to be given up. Just look and remember, whatever you perceive is not you, not yours. It is there in the field of your consciousness, but you are not the field and its contents, nor even the knower of the field. It is your idea that you have to do things that entangle you in the results of your efforts. The motive, the desire, the failure to achieve, the sense of frustration -- all this holds you back. Simply look at whatever happens and know that you are beyond it."
:yo:
So tim, that was your own direct experience. That's really exciting, I'm so glad for you, and glad to have heard it directly from the blissed out monkey himself. None of this third person BS.Quote:
Posted by tim
I'm impressed that you found the concentration to write it out, three hours is probably doing really well.
Beautifully articulated, thank you.
My experience was spontaneous, and I had no discipline to maintain it. The last 23 years have been continually burning the dross with periods of relief, and using up identity in alternating successes and devastation.
It's probably just as tedious training the mind without the benefit of awareness, and then finally being rewarded for it. You can't know what you're trying to achieve.
If all of time was a preparation for that moment, then I guess it's just a relative thing.
The downside of the former is that once you've discovered that you're in hell, you're truly in hell. You have no choice but to build yourself a ladder and start climbing out of fear. Even if just to distract yourself.
Well, you have a choice of when.
The upside is that it's a hell of a motivator.
Tim made an absolute statement in his opening post.
We can either accept that or otherwise--- I accept it.
Its not really debatable,
If our thinking is based on a false premise then all the knowledge in the world unfortunately is colored by the false premise.
My thoughts and I open to be corrected is that--- the caterpillar, having become the butterfly, is in an entirely different state.
I call that enlightenment.
There is no human-being after the event-- there is just awareness-- even the word awareness does not suffice but its best I can do.
The body and persona carry on as before and that is deceiving.
Karma has a certain momentum.
I believe that we are in the university of life in order to evolve.
When the state of enlightenment has occurred-- this class is over/job done.
Chris
LOL. Coffee, or tea?Quote:
Posted by tim
I have a question to ask an enlightened master. It's entirely selfish, based entirely on my own situation.
How would enlightenment assist me in the daily task of enduring relentless astral sexual and psychic harassment, in which I am deprived of sleep, subject to brainwashing attempts, subtle body manipulation, mood manipulation, etc etc etc.
How does knowing I am living a dream, and that in this dream I am being stalked and mentally tortured..... how does this help me?
How much equanimity is it possible to cultivate?
One false premise is that I am an individual, a body/mind.
That totally colors my world and my thought process.
Its all about "ME"
However!!!
No self-- no problem.
I really shouldn't put my thoughts though on this thread.
Pronouns pronouns.
I wish the "I" would take a vacation, a permanent one.
Chris
Hi Chris. So you dont really inhabit your body, on a day to day basis, or your mind? So that if you were in pain or mentally abused you feel you would barely notice?Quote:
Posted by greybeard
Hiya Chris!Quote:
Posted by greybeard
We don't need more definitions of enlightenment -- they're a dime a dozen, and people's minds are already overburdened with enough concepts and notions in that regard. What we actualy need are more demonstrations of enlightenment, but those are still pretty rare.
Moreover, even by classical standards, what was described in the OP does equate with real liberation. Rather, it merely represents another fixation of identity in some sort of cosmic Self. Both self and Self need to be recognized as fantasies of interpretation on perception, with no inherent reality. Both fictions need to be penetrated for liberation to begin to dawn, and even that is not enough -- unless it is fully integrated and embodied in the way we act and relate in the world, it remains conceptual and rather impotent.
Over the years, I've seen many who have had some sort of "spiritual" experience, and immediately turn around and claim enlightenment. If they're fortunate, they'll find a real master with whom they can test their realization. Invariably, a few minutes face to face with such a master will serve to disabuse them of their new self-image, saving them years of wandering around in delusion. Those not so fortunate will end up believing their own propaganda, since the mind can easily co-opt even profound realizations, reveling in how enlightened it now is, and how it has transcended itself. Those are usually the hardest to reach, since they're convinced that their job is over.