Jesus’ path to enlightenment (ending reincarnation)

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Posted by petra

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Posted by Bill Ryan

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Posted by Slobbe

Jesus’ path to enlightenment (ending reincarnation)

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Why would one not want to reincarnate?

That's exactly like saying that one wants to go to sleep at night and then not wake up to another day.

Personally, I'm looking forward to tomorrow. There are already some things I've planned to do.

And I'm looking forward to my next life, too.

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I certainly don't. I could say why..... but it's not nice.

I'd be content with going to sleep and not waking up. I used to be afraid I'd go to sleep and not wake up (ie: gettin' killed in my sleep), so I had insomnia for three days! But I'm not afraid of that anymore, now it sounds kinda nice (Mmmmmm... rest!)

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I think a lot of people share that feeling. I know my mother does. She tried to stop life on multiple occasions. Life on earth is not experienced as a dance under the moonlight, a stroll on the beach or a game of football with the family (figuratively speaking) be everyone. Millions of people feel trapped in their situation, whether lonely, under medication, addicted, in a bad relationship, overworked, or whatever else situation and don't always see a solution to their situation. If one has the idea to end life, then I suggest to consider to turn to Jesus for help. Pray in his name, open the heart and speak to him. Ask him to help you. My wife had a problem with infected eyes. It kept her awake during the night, in agonizing pain, crying. Night after night. We both were in despair because of this. Physically exhausted, mentally desperate after sleepless nights and doctor's visits that didn't find a solution to the problem. In her desperation my wife took the advice of a friend that asked her whether she had tried praying to Jesus for help. She did so, as she (nor I) was unable to think of any other solution, as the problem had lasted three years and had tried everything we could think of. Herbs, alternative treatments, doctors, a ****load of different medications. All didn't help. That's why finally she prayed. From then on her life got better step by step. We were both so happy about it. Don't ever think there's no where to go than out of this life (not meant to you personally Petra, though in general). And once we found Jesus, we started loving life again. That's why we are grateful. To experience change on so many different levels, that previously was unthinkable. Just grateful. And then to think about having to go through another life with possibly a different consciousness, and more possible sufferings... Been there, done that... :stop: Enough. Everyone can have his or her choice to come back here (or on a different planet), but not anymore for us. We have different yearnings and plans. We are outta here. :flypig:

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Posted by 5th

Debating the truth of religion with a 'true believer' is a waste of time. I have Muslim friends who are quite broad minded, very tolerant and intelligent but hold the most brainwashed beliefs that cannot be shaken. In fact, they say I am more truly Muslim than most Muslims and hope that I convert to the faith eventually! The same applies to Christians.

But perhaps it's not a complete waste of time as one day they may see that their belief system is at a very low level and a much better one exists.

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Yep, there is absolutely no point in reasoning with someone whos belief is base on faith they are going to bombard you with quotes from the bible because to them its the absolute truth they have close their minds to any other possibilities. What I do is just talk casually about my belief against religions including on facebook where I now have 3 people giving me likes with rants against religion. as they say "lies repeated equals truth" which means that truth repeated...So its not hopeless.
My parents aunts uncles and everyone in the family is a devoted catholic. I use to be one thankfully I kept my my mind open always open.

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Posted by Bill Ryan

You bet! :Party:

http://projectavalon.net/Your_Planet_Needs_You.jpg

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I both laughed and scoffed at this, sorry Bill! I made a "propaganda image" too ;-)

In regards to not wanting to reincarnate and why.. I think I can explain that without sounding like an ass.

Hypothetical situation. You're stuck on an island with nothing to do but play Mario Brother's. It's fun for a while, but eventually I imagine you getting to the point where you'd rather do nothing than play Mario Brother's any more. Maybe you'd like something more challenging, like Mortal Kombat (2 players!) or Call of Duty (oh snap lol!)

@ Luke Holiday, I love your personal interpretation of the quote "I am the way ..." But I still believe that the original intent of the quote was the Roman intent to control humanity by insisting that people must follow the narrowly confined behaviors dictated by the "church."

In the non duality book by Nasargadatta " I am That"
The meaning of "I am the way"could be taken as advice to discover what the "I"is.
That is the Self as in Self-realized.
Ramana Maharshi called this Self inquiry.

We can all agree that I exists.
Thats what we are--but most don't investigate enough to realize that I is always present and does not change.
It is the eternal life force which we are.
If you look at the teachings of Jesus with this in mind --perspective/understanding can change.
"Love thy brother as thy self" --there is no difference--same Self in non-duality.

Chris

I was raised a Christian and what I got from it is most Christians see Salvation as an end in itself. I wanted to know everything I could about "God", but they felt they had no reason to look further, since they were "saved". And, of course, there was no hope without that. From what I've studied about "Enlightenment/Self-realization, we already are "saved". We aren't these mortal creatures we inhabit, and when we discover the Truth, we find there's no "I" that needs to be saved, as what we are is simply pure awareness, itself.

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Posted by Alanantic

I was raised a Christian and what I got from it is most Christians see Salvation as an end in itself. I wanted to know everything I could about "God", but they felt they had no reason to look further, since they were "saved". And, of course, there was no hope without that. From what I've studied about "Enlightenment/Self-realization, we already are "saved". We aren't these mortal creatures we inhabit, and when we discover the Truth, we find there's no "I" that needs to be saved, as what we are is simply pure awareness, itself.

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I sometimes worry about fellow Christians, to the level of having discussions with the pastor, who was telling me to chill. I know I can be quite the energy bomb (9 years army + athletics background + dominant father of which I have inherited some features), and indeed trying to be more relaxed and control emotions. But when I have the feeling something is off for worse, it hurts my heart nowadays. Thing is, I have the feeling holy Spirit is of great importance in spiritual growth. If I wasn't able to communicate with Him, I would not know how I would be able to determine what His plan with me is, what His thoughts are on different matters, how to receive the lessons as clearly as I do now. And I notice a lot of Christians just going about their own life, just being steady. Not having the holy Spirit in their lives. And it makes me worry about their future. And maybe I shouldn't but that's just what I feel and I feel crappy sitting around not acting on it. But on the other hand. And this is what keeps me confident about their future. The most important command: Love God and the people around you. So when looking at that, I do think we're good. Though agree that salvation is an important one, but not the goal. And from my perspective, a start.

[QUOTE=Slobbe: The most important command: Love God and the people around you.[/QUOTE]

I fail to see any value in obeying a 'commandment' because that implies that you must do it and if you don't you will be punished (hell).

So, because I do what i am told rather than be punished that makes me a good person? We are even told to 'fear God'!

Apart from that, 'God' as a single omnipotent being who created the universe does not exist. God is a concept and the best description of that concept is that God is the sum total of the consciousness of the universe - and everything has consciousness, even a stone.

That's why 'God is within' because we are all a 'part' of God. Disconnection from this fact is what causes all the problems and suffering in the world including the divisions between religions (all of which demand that we worship some separate god through their priests).

I am God, you are God and so is everything in the universe. Once you realise that, religion and rules, commandments and organised worship are simply not needed. Once you realise that, you are able to fully understand from first hand perception that hurting somebody else is hurting yourself, hating others because they are different from you is hating yourself. Religion is divisive because it teaches separation and disconnection.

The universe wants expansion through experience and so there is value in experiencing life as a bigoted idiot maybe as much as experiencing life as a kind and wonderful person (that's why we are all equal). That said, the more we follow our true path the more we experience - and so the more valuable this is. To live a narrow, repetitive life causes less expansion. To learn, discover, evolve and grow spiritually (not follow rules) is more beneficial.

Talk to religious leaders and they paint a fine picture of tolerance, love and community but behind closed doors many are horrible people and the most religious countries in the world are the worst for women because all religions are made by men to give them power, superiority and control.

Oh and why do we only have to love 'the people around us', why not everyone (and animals)?

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Posted by wnlight

@ Luke Holiday, I love your personal interpretation of the quote "I am the way ..." But I still believe that the original intent of the quote was the Roman intent to control humanity by insisting that people must follow the narrowly confined behaviors dictated by the "church."

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and there goes another problem each one can and has own interpretation of each passage. You can turn twist and all and come up with more than a hundred for each.

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Posted by 5th

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Posted by Alanantic

The most important command: Love God and the people around you.

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I fail to see any value in obeying a 'commandment' because that implies that you must do it and if you don't you will be punished (hell).

So, because I do what i am told rather than be punished that makes me a good person? We are even told to 'fear God'!

Apart from that, 'God' as a single omnipotent being who created the universe does not exist. God is a concept and the best description of that concept is that God is the sum total of the consciousness of the universe - and everything has consciousness, even a stone.

That's why 'God is within' because we are all a 'part' of God. Disconnection from this fact is what causes all the problems and suffering in the world including the divisions between religions (all of which demand that we worship some separate god through their priests).

I am God, you are God and so is everything in the universe. Once you realise that, religion and rules, commandments and organised worship are simply not needed. Once you realise that, you are able to fully understand from first hand perception that hurting somebody else is hurting yourself, hating others because they are different from you is hating yourself. Religion is divisive because it teaches separation and disconnection.

The universe wants expansion through experience and so there is value in experiencing life as a bigoted idiot maybe as much as experiencing life as a kind and wonderful person (that's why we are all equal). That said, the more we follow our true path the more we experience - and so the more valuable this is. To live a narrow, repetitive life causes less expansion. To learn, discover, evolve and grow spiritually (not follow rules) is more beneficial.

Talk to religious leaders and they paint a fine picture of tolerance, love and community but behind closed doors many are horrible people and the most religious countries in the world are the worst for women because all religions are made by men to give them power, superiority and control.

Oh and why do we only have to love 'the people around us', why not everyone (and animals)?

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Seeing commandment might indeed trigger a negative connotation. I would like to share my opinion that if one truly understands that love is the highest good, then that person will try and achieve the highest in love regardless, out of love for others. And in essence is what these commandments are about. An earthly perspective on this might block the understanding that God, who Himself has the highest love, has put in place universal justice, to help people learn about love. (and you're right this is about showing love to 'all people around you, everyone, even your enemies.) And that is where 'fear' comes into play. It is not for people who try and live lovingly on a universal level, but for those that don't want to evolve in universal love, but want to evolve in love as they please. And exactly there is where the disconnect with God comes in, as God has universal love. Not being universal love is not God. Would a parent be able to bring up good children without giving lessons? Imagine what would happen if those laws weren't in place.
If one is not able to transcend the Inferior/Superior, the slave/master perspective on this, then the person will remain from God, as the person is not all loving. The person chooses what to love. And that's where it falls short from Gods perspective: Not able to love all. That's what the commandment is about: love all. Once a person understands just that and is able to give itself up for universal love, that's where God will show Himself. And that is where one will experience God, or the Spirit of Him. And will learn just how gracious and loving He truly is. That's where He will deem a person worthy and will start treating the person as a God. Sharing knowledge, power, wisdom, love, for starters, which will expand later in the afterlife (or true life if you will). At that point He gives more than he asks. He has a lot of love to give. And the more a person, that is dedicated to universal love, experiences this, the more willing he/she becomes to show love back. Only thing He asks is have a heart for everyone and be assertive about it. Don't close eyes where there is suffering or a need. Help each other. Support each other.

It is very true and clear that religion has made a mess on this planet. Though we can't blame God for that. We do have sovereignty and the ability to make choices. Many people choose love for self. And are willing to hurt others because of that. And unfortunately for many, the organization of this love for self is strong. God has the ability to change this, but spirits/souls need to grow. And experience will help do that. And God knows this. We need to understand that we do live in a simulation, whether someone is able to grasp that or not. For God this is not a matter of life and death as in the earthly experience. And God is not in a hurry. Many people stay in their own personal earthly life perspective. Though God doesn't think like that. He has patience. We're talking eons. Strings of reincarnations.

I will not say following religion is a good thing. I try to stay aware of being controlled also (that's one reason I came to Avalon years ago). Don't want to be controlled by love for self, though I'm willing to serve universal love. And I will say God is good. That there are a lot of people not seeing this, I understand. One can look inside to get more perspective. "Do I love everything including God and willing to help where people are in need?" If the answer is no to some extend, then I understand one doesn't see a good God.

Regarding the animals. Good question. Have been pondering about that also. Personally I will treat animals with love also. Even the smallest creatures. Though I think, and I'm not too knowledgeable on this point, there is a spiritual/soul perspective on this. If anyone can contribute on this, that would be mightily appreciated.

Excellent response Slobbe and Happy Chrstmas to you!

"Quote Posted by Alanantic (here)
The most important command: Love God and the people around you."

Nice sentiment, but I didn't post it. I'm not into "commands from God", nor "God", per se. Weird.

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Posted by Alanantic

"Quote Posted by Alanantic (here)
The most important command: Love God and the people around you."

Nice sentiment, but I didn't post it. I'm not into "commands from God", nor "God", per se. Weird.

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LOL Sorry! Don't know how that happened - either a software malfunction or my brain malfunction.

I've corrected it as best I can.

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Posted by 5th

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Posted by Alanantic

"Quote Posted by Alanantic (here)
The most important command: Love God and the people around you."

Nice sentiment, but I didn't post it. I'm not into "commands from God", nor "God", per se. Weird.

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LOL Sorry! Don't know how that happened - either a software malfunction or my brain malfunction.

I've corrected it as best I can.

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Yeah, no prob. :-)

Another difference I see between Salvation and Enlightenment is the difference between belief and gnosis. Christ as "only" God's son must be believed in, whereas enlightenment is attained through direct Knowing; which is experienced without the mind or senses, and is the result of inquiry into the self, as Chris mentioned. The tricky part is "Life is but a Dream".

"The soul is undergoing a dream from which it must awake. This dream represents our association and identification with the world. The fact that it is described as being a dream means that whatever is in it has to be false. Nothing in a dream can be true. Waking up from that dream is the ultimate goal, Self-realization." -- The main theme of "Yoga Vasistha"

"Tell them I'm awake." -- Buddha

Mystics are clear--the mind can not understand this, it has to be experiential.
We are the dreamer and the dreamed.
Form-formless--both and neither.
Avaita possibly says it all in one short phrase "One without a second"

The late Dr David R Hawkins in his books went into great detail on his experiences.
I was an avid reader---
He had great cd set--The Highest Level of Enlightenment"
Led me to go to Longbeach California to his Seminar--"Living the Prayer" I could not afford it but went anyway,
It was helpful to say the least.
When there is a commitment to know the Truth--life changes--whatis necessary comes--what is not goes.

Yogananda had a scarf stolen--he seemed upset--his devotees said "Dont worry, we will get you another"
He said " They left me with the responsibility of the gloves" which they did not take.

Through acceptance of what is--change comes about without--your interference, or desire to change it.
The expression comes to mind "Be careful what you wish for"

Chris