Quote:
Posted by Tarka the Duck
Exactly!
http://i.pbase.com/g4/79/738779/2/77426574.d4Xr5eJ5.jpg
(quote from Dogen Zenji)
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Quote:
Posted by Tarka the Duck
Exactly!
http://i.pbase.com/g4/79/738779/2/77426574.d4Xr5eJ5.jpg
(quote from Dogen Zenji)
Quote:
Posted by Jenci
"By gosh, I think she's got it!"
~Henry Higgins
Yes I know all is an illusion but knowing that is not necessarily helpful.Quote:
Posted by another bobQuote:
Posted by greybeard
There is no person or even Self, period.
I can proclaim till I am blue in the face that I am the Ocean, that I am beyond even awareness, but that is not the current state.
Eckhart Tolle asked a man when was he born-- the man gave the spiritually correct answer " I was never born etc"
Eckhart said "Yes that was true but not when he said it."
So we must act in accordance with our current state because that what God wants
Thats paraphrasing Ramesh Balsekar.
He said "God gave you an ego let Him remove it"
Most teachers will give you a way of removing obstacles in order reveal what you have allways been--- yet in the same breath say you have no free will.
Teachings full of intricate techniques and stages to become realised then say its only by the Grace of God, you cant make it happen.
So there you have the challenge for the "ordinary" man/woman.
I appreciate in particular Tims help in speaking of that which cant be spoken off. The One without a second.
Chris
What's helpful is when you finally stop looking for help.Quote:
Posted by greybeardYes I know all is an illusion but knowing that is not necessarily helpful.Quote:
Posted by another bobQuote:
Posted by greybeard
There is no person or even Self, period.
:yo:
In a strange way Im not actually looking for help Im appreciating it when given bob.Quote:
Posted by another bobWhat's helpful is when you finally stop looking for help.Quote:
Posted by greybeardYes I know all is an illusion but knowing that is not necessarily helpful.Quote:
Posted by another bobQuote:
Posted by greybeard
There is no person or even Self, period.
:yo:
As said I learn through life giving me feed back in whatever form or non form it comes in.
Your posts are always appreciated too--- thanks to yourself I am halfway through "I am That"
I do what I do for the enjoyment in the moment of it not actually looking for anything---
I dont know if meditation will happen today or not--- yet it seems there is some kind of discipline hapening.
Acts happen deeds are done there is no individual doer there of (Ramesh)
That kind of sums up life of the moment.
Thanks
Chris
Hiya Chris!Quote:
Posted by greybeardIn a strange way Im not actually looking for help Im appreciating it when given bob.Quote:
Posted by another bobWhat's helpful is when you finally stop looking for help.Quote:
Posted by greybeardYes I know all is an illusion but knowing that is not necessarily helpful.Quote:
Posted by another bobQuote:
Posted by greybeard
There is no person or even Self, period.
:yo:
Since you like Adya, here's a pertinent quote:
In Liberation, you stand alone. You stand alone because you need no supports of any kind. You need no supports because you have realized that the very notion of a separate you no longer exists; that there is nothing to support; that the whole ego experience was a flimsy illusion. So you stand alone but never, never lonely because everywhere you look, all you see is That, and You are That.
~Adyashanti
Ah yes but who exactly is he helping bob, by giving talks and sharing his experience, wisdom and knowledge.
He had a Zen teacher for years and was a very intense seeker then hit the wall of knowing he could not make it hapen.
I know I cant make it happen.
He confirms there is a state of liberation--- then being in that state yes you stand alone-- there is no other.
Ignorance needs to be removed and I contend that some form of help is needed up to some point--- till you have out grown it or whatever.
Seems humility is very important on some so called paths.
Nasargadatta needed the help of his teacher and freely admits that.
Papaji helped by Ramana-- thats why there is a linage--- a trusted proven way.
It ok to say there is no path no way and I get that --- however the seeker has no choice but to seek till seeking ends.
There is no choice in that as far as I can see.
Chris
From an interview with Adya:Quote:
Posted by greybeard
Q: And what is the role of spiritual practice in awakening?
A: It depends on the nature of the individual. By practice I assume you mean some sort of meditation, prayer, or devotional practices. These practices either will or will not happen. You will find yourself drawn or not drawn to them.
Q: They're not necessary?
A: They're not necessary in and of themselves. But, if you happen to do them. then maybe they're necessary for you. They can become a barrier too. "I don't do enough meditation; how can I possibly awaken?" That's not to say that spiritual practices can't be very useful. They can be very, very useful as long as they're not used as unconscious defense mechanisms.
Q: You mean as a defense against awakening?
A: Yes, because most often that is what they are used for. What I'm saying is that most meditators are avoiding their own experience rather than trying to truly understand it.
Q: So, it seems that meditation could either help or hinder that process.
A: Right. exactly. In my own teaching, in my retreats, there is quite a lot of meditation just for the reason of being able to abide. If someone cannot sit still, then they find it very difficult to inquire in any concentrated, single-pointed way. They inquire in a very messy, conflicted way.
Q: It helps to know how to quiet the mind.
A: Yes. Spiritual practices are not bad. It's more the attitude that we're doing them with than what those practices actually are.
Q: You yourself did fifteen years of intense Zen meditation practice.
A: Right, and for a lot of that time I did exactly what I am telling people not to do. I did a tremendous amount of meditation and a lot of that meditation was an unconscious grasping at an ideal that I had of what enlightenment was. In both cases it was a horrendous waste of energy. It was useful in the sense that I finally got tired of it, but in and of itself, it was a real waste of energy.
So Chris, I am not denying that a genuinely awakened teacher can helpful, if only to show one that they actually need no help, and that they must stand on their own two feet. My disagreement with Tim was his claim of being "enlightened", and thus qualified to show others "the way", when in fact he is one who actually needs to get with a real live teacher, before he gets too carried away with his own delusion.
Q: So would you say that people become more proud as a result of having had spiritual experiences? Can spiritual experiences at times strengthen the ego in a negative way?
Ammachi: The people to whom this happens are deluded, and they confuse others as well. They will actually push others into delusion. Some people gain a glimpse of something, or have a spiritual experience, and then think they have attained the truth. Only someone who is not realized will think, "I am spiritual, I am enlightened..." and this will create a strong, subtle ego.
A subtle ego is more dangerous than a gross ego. Even the individuals themselves won't understand that the subtle ego is leading or motivating them, and this subtle ego will become part of their nature. This kind of pride also makes people lose their capacity to listen. And listening is extremely important on the spiritual path. A person who does not listen cannot be humble. And it is only when we are truly humble that the already existing pure Consciousness will be unfolded within us.
Thanks for the time you took and your input bob.
You can see the challenge that "seekers" have.
there is no definate indication that another is in a true state called enlightenment.
Test dont seem to me to be valid.
For example kundalini awoke in me 18 years ago and with it came various gifts which I let go.
I gave up identification with them.
I have had the bliss experiences-- never felt one with all though, appart from that my mind is virtually silent.
So I could say I passed quite a few tests on enlightenment yet I have not experienced oneness.
I have spent "personal" time with Eckhart, Ramesh, Dr Goels, Bernie Prior, Dr David Hawkins--- I did not ever look for that to happen it just did.
Thankfully meditation was never particularly a great experience so I did not get addicted to it.
Im much in the moment-- any reaction on my part is gone in moments.
Desires virtually no existant-- neither attraction nor aversion.
So I am blessed in many ways.
I can truthfully say I did not achive any of it--- it just happened--- but I did ask--- the God "of my lack of understanding."
I say I dont understand because so much love and help has come my way-- through coincidence-- sycronicity.
Thanks again bob, though I cant see why you are so sure that Tim is deluded.
Chris
Quote:
Posted by greybeard
Well, my Friend, you'd have to go back to my original comments about "enlightenment" itself. Remember, I also distinguished between awakening, liberation, and enlightenment. To reiterate, one may awaken beyond identification with the "self", or body-mind organism, and so be liberated in that sense, but that is not enlightenment, which is of a whole different order altogether, and is not possible in 3-D, simply put.
Tim is a great guy, no doubt, and well-meaning, I'm sure, so please understand I am not trying to put him down. However, I've been around a while. I've been involved with spiritual communities for over half a century, studied with a number of masters, and seen all sorts of folks come and go, making various claims and so forth. I've honed my discrimination in that regard, especially when it comes to internet guru wannabes -- a particularly odd class of individual infected with what Ammachi called "the subtle ego" (as quoted above in my last post). Folks would be surprised at how transparent they are in this regard!Quote:
Thanks again bob, though I cant see why you are so sure that Tim is deluded
My main point in all of this is not to denigate another's position, whether or not I believe it's true or not. My main point is that we simply do not need to fill our minds full of more enlightenment idealism, even if it is intended to be "succinct". All that does is spawn more conceptuality about the subject, which actually turns out to be more hindrance than help.
:yo:
Hi all,Quote:
Posted by another bobThere's nothing wrong with the "I", it's a wonderful navigation device that helps us to stop on red and go on green-- it's just fixating on it that creates the problem, making it the master rather than the servant.Quote:
Posted by greybeard
:yo:
If I may be so bold to throw in a few words in this discussion of Titans,
Isn't it so that without the 'I' the experience of separation and so the experience we have is impossible? We would be back in the source immediately.
It is thanks to the 'I' that we can experience this dream. So maybe it is not about sending it on a permanent vacation, but learning how to get the 'I' in proportion, to a point were the 'I' understands it's merely a tool to have this experience and nothing more.
x post update x
Giving the 'I' some appreciation for it's existence would take away a big part of the feeling that one would like to send it on a permanent vacation :).
Yep, pretty much. . . Remember also, that ego is an activity, not an entity.Quote:
Posted by WakytweakyHi all,Quote:
Posted by another bobThere's nothing wrong with the "I", it's a wonderful navigation device that helps us to stop on red and go on green-- it's just fixating on it that creates the problem, making it the master rather than the servant.Quote:
Posted by greybeard
:yo:
If I may be so bold to throw in a few words in this discussion of Titans,
Isn't it so that without the 'I' the experience of separation and so the experience we have is impossible? We would be back in the source immediately.
It is thanks to the 'I' that we can experience this dream. So maybe it is not about sending it on a permanent vacation, but learning how to get the 'I' in proportion, to a point were the 'I' understands it's merely a tool to have this experience and nothing more.
I've certainly needed descriptions and help about what enlightenment is, along the way. They have helped make sense of some of the strange experiences that I have been having and they have also given me the courage to keep going.Quote:
Posted by another bob
What I have seen from contemplating this thread for days, is that they in themselves have become fixed points - beliefs about what enlightenment is.
Even the sense of have of Awareness/Consciousness that this was the One, Eternal, Real, I am now questioning. And I am questioning the sense of it, not just the belief of it.
What if this too, Awareness/Consciousness, is still the illusion?
What we call enlightenment is the awakening in the midst of the dream. So what is awakening from the dream itself?
Is that seeing beyond even the veil of illusion that is Awareness itself?
Can a human being ever do that - how would the body/mind of a human cope with that? That would mean nothing that we ever experience here in this life is real....just some kind of virtual reality program running in the background.....but in the background of what?
I don't have the answers, but I am asking the questions.....and listening.
Jeanette
Coming from the far side here, what if...The name of the game is for Consciousness to purposely lose itself in the farthest reaches of it's own Mind, the deep wilderness. The only possible way back is a deeply implanted homing beacon, so to speak. Some aspects of Consciousness may discover this immediately and head right on back home, some may wander aimlessly for eons. I suspect we're in the latter group.
Either way, in this case there is no such thing as enlightenment. There is only a noticing, and then a following of this beacon as we begin to dimly comprehend it's meaning. We begin following it only at that magical point of finally realizing we have nothing else to turn to. Absolutely nothing.
This beacon is nothing but the memory of who we truly are. As we erratically home in, we can always continue the game and stop comfortably at any point, fooling ourselves that we are home. Or we can order Scotty to engage warp nine and end it. Game over.
Then it's story time.(LOL)
Cheers,
Fred
I think you may be onto something there, Fred, lol.Quote:
Posted by Fred Steeves
It's good to see you back here posting :)
Jeanette
It has been said that " one must be willing to give it all up only to get it all back in the end". If that is so and I have not found it otherwise, one must give up any attachments to the "I", the "self" and "seeking", "enlightenment", etc.
Certainly far easier stated than done. Letting go can be hard but not to worry, you can get it all back!
Quote:
Posted by JenciI've certainly needed descriptions and help about what enlightenment is, along the way. They have helped make sense of some of the strange experiences that I have been having and they have also given me the courage to keep going.Quote:
Posted by another bob
What I have seen from contemplating this thread for days, is that they in themselves have become fixed points - beliefs about what enlightenment is.
Yes, and therein lies the problem with fattening the mind with borrowed idealism -- fixed beliefs and opinions.
Quote:
Even the sense of have of Awareness/Consciousness that this was the One, Eternal, Real, I am now questioning. And I am questioning the sense of it, not just the belief of it.
What if this too, Awareness/Consciousness, is still the illusion?
This sort of inquiry has been what I'm driving at -- that we not stop with the conventional answers, but keep going further.
Quote:
What we call enlightenment is the awakening in the midst of the dream. So what is awakening from the dream itself?
Is that seeing beyond even the veil of illusion that is Awareness itself?
Can a human being ever do that - how would the body/mind of a human cope with that? That would mean nothing that we ever experience here in this life is real....just some kind of virtual reality program running in the background.....but in the background of what?
Again, this is what I've pointed to earlier in this thread, except the "program" is not running in any background -- it's the foreground. The background is the Unknown. And no, the 3-D form cannot cope with such an experience, as I've also mentioned.
It seems that one must at least have witnessed their own death to even begin to get a sense about this whole deal. Here's something from David Godman, in his memoirs about Nisargadatta:
"At some point Maharaj asked him, 'Have you witnessed your own death?' and Rudi replied 'No'.
Maharaj then launched into a mini-lecture on how it was necessary to witness one's own death in order for there to be full realisation. He said that it had happened to him after he thought that he had fully realised the Self, and it wasn't until after this death experience that he understood that this process was necessary for final liberation. I hope somebody recorded this dialogue on tape because I am depending on a twenty-five-year-old memory for this. It seems to be a crucial part of Maharaj's experience and teachings but I never heard him mention it on any other occasion. I have also not come across it in any of his books."
Quote:
I don't have the answers, but I am asking the questions.....and listening.
Jeanette
That's the spirit!
:yo:
Dr David Hawkins said there is a final door and only God wallks through that.
He said ther is only one death and "his" experience was one of terror as the ego-- self what ever you want to call the personal I finally died.
Then the mind was totally silent ( he had to re-awaken the ability to comunicate before teaching began
There was a silent temptation before the death happened.
There after it was as though a black and white world tturned into technicolour.
He then saw divinity shining forth in everything.
He spent years in isolation as the initial "enlightenment" matured/ evolved before the final death.
He said that was "his" destiiny and even lower level of "enlightenment" feel complete but he had to surrender them.
In his last life time he went into the void that seemed complete but lacked Love.
He warned that the path of negation could lead to the void.
He had to come back to resolve this and the question of existance verses non-existence.
It was thirty years before he could speak of "enlightenment"
I dont see why he would missinform about al this.
My post is all over the place as I am not articulate today--- sorry.
Chris
People have all sorts of experiences and take them to be definitive, and then become prophets and start new religions and so forth. The mind can turn even profound realizations into new ways to confirm itself and its enduring existence. However, no experience is definitive. You start to realize that fact, after a few experiences . . . at least some do.Quote:
Posted by greybeard
:yo:
All beliefs and opinions have to go. Even the ones from the teachers that we have learned from the teachers. Adyashanti says do not take my word for anything, find out for yourself.Quote:
Posted by another bob
Ok, so the program (like a computer program of a virtual world) is running in the foreground. Now I may be in that program as the person Jeanette believing that I am the mind/body. But I also may be in that program, having attained what people call the state of enlightenment with the personal sense of self having fallen away, or I maybe on a journey somewhere in between the two.Quote:
Posted by anotherbob
Whatever perception I may have, it is still part of the program only running in the foreground.
Whether it is ego identification or enlightenment, it's still the dream which brings me to Kathie's quote:-
Quote:
My dreamlike form
Appeared to dreamlike beings
To show them the dreamlike path
To dreamlike enlightenment.
Gautama
What you are saying is that you will only realise all of this is only a foreground program, when you experience the physical death and then even enlightenment will be seen as part of the program or dream, when what is in the background will be realised.Quote:
Posted by anotherbob
So, rather than seek enlightenment, better to realise that enlightenment is not the absolute truth, it's just something that happens to the human in the program/dream. Then even enlightenment doesn't matter.
What next? Physical death is a bit extreme to realise the absolute truth, lol.
But really there is nothing to do, like Nisargadatta said.
I think.....well at least today, that's what I think :)
Jeanette