Let's talk about vitamins and minerals and supplements, starting from scratch

I know almost nothing about vitamins, minerals, and supplements. (Hopefully, this thread will change that.) Like many people, I do know a tiny bit, but not nearly what a 12-year old kid should have been taught.

From my "I know nearly nothing" starting point, I mentally divide vitamins, minerals, and supplements into 2 groups:

Group 1: essential (to prevent disease), and

Group 2: all the rest (you might actually need some if these if you "don't eat right")

At my starting point, that is:

Group 1: Vitamin C

Group 2: all the rest.

Vitamin C (not made by the human body but essential to prevent scurvy, and involved in numerous critical functions) can be obtained "by eating right", so really, that leaves group 1 empty. (See, I told you I don't know anything!)

I realize that vitamin C, alone, could have a thread dedicated to it. Ascorbic or ascorbate? Straight or "timed release?"Liposomal? How much (Dr. Linus Pauling, Nobel chemistry prize winner for his work on vitamin C took 16 grams a day! But then, he died, so it isn't a cure for death.)

I think a huge part of the problem is marketing and advertising. If you took all the "advice" from marketing professionals, you'd be spending the equivalent of a car payment a month to afford it all, and all of it is hyped as being critical for good health. You'd probably get sick from overdoing the supplements.

The US federal government agencies have been part of the problem as well. For example, the RDA (Required Daily Amount) of vitamin C is (I believe) 37mg. Dr. Pauling, who took over 400 times that amount daily, said the only reason he could think of for the government agencies to do that would be so they weren't required to give prisoners adequate vitamin C - a cost issue. So if the RDAs listed by the US government* are wrong, then what is correct?

*(not trying to be "Americentric" here, so your own country's government may use different figures as RDAs, but I suspect some have adapted the US standards.)

Another problem is that our parents didn't know, and just didn't have the information to pass on to us. In my era - pre food pyramid! - there were 4 food groups, and that covered all bases. No supplementation at all.

A perspective: Paleo people didn't supplement, so no supplementation is necessary.

A perspective: Modern people are under bombardment of toxins and radiation and stress, soil has been stripped of bio-available nutrients, so it is nearly impossible to just "eat right" and have the nutrients to thrive.

Ah, "thrive." That's another level up from meeting bare minimum daily requirements. Should we aim for "sustain/maintain", or "thrive" when putting together a supplement regimen?

How do we get the nutrients in:
Foods -vs.- food concentrates -vs.- fractions of organic compounds -vs.- synthetic compounds

Confused yet? I am.

I know that some of you have spent a great deal of time, years, decades, researching what supplementation to take on a daily basis. Even better, many of you have spent decades experimenting on yourselves, refining your 'book-learned' knowledge with experience. Please share what you know. I'm sure I'm not the only one that will derive great benefit from this conversation.

What do you, the experienced, take every day? (specifics, including brands and dosages) What do we need to know about combining and avoiding combinations of supplements? What time of day do you take each of them? With food or without? What else do we need to know? If you could give a quick presentation to a group of wide-eyed 12-year old kids that wanted to walk away with the critical core knowledge of vitamin and mineral supplementation, what would you say?

Thanks in advance for all who offer their thoughts and advice here. Cheers! To your health!

As one grows older, colloidal minerals become more important. I use NOW minerals from shale deposits in Utah. The best out there. A cassette tape made the rounds in the 70's that dealt with horse nutrition. Researchers found that as a horse aged, less and less of vitamins injested were actually absorbed. This multiplies after the age of 40 for humans. Add colloidal minerals to the mix and the absorption rate goes way up. I have experimented on myself over the years with vitamins and minerals. I take my mix with a large meal. Then it is the vitamins, a capful of colloidal minerals and a cup and a half of orange juice. No other juice will do as well.

Try it on yourself. Make sure your chosen all purpose vitamin pill contains all the B vitamins. Take this mix without minerals or OJ. watch your urine and how yellow it is. Then, a day or two later, take the full mix. Vitamins of your choice, good colloidal minerals, and OJ. Now watch your urine. Much less yellow due to much better absorption. I am 70 and it makes a big difference for me.

"Root Cause Protocol", I recently came across it and find it quite interesting.

https://therootcauseprotocol.com/all-resources/

There's so much contradictory info out there it's almost impossible to know who to believe.

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Posted by enigma3

As one grows older, colloidal minerals become more important. I use NOW minerals from shale deposits in Utah. The best out there. A cassette tape made the rounds in the 70's that dealt with horse nutrition. Researchers found that as a horse aged, less and less of vitamins injested were actually absorbed. This multiplies after the age of 40 for humans. Add colloidal minerals to the mix and the absorption rate goes way up. I have experimented on myself over the years with vitamins and minerals. I take my mix with a large meal. Then it is the vitamins, a capful of colloidal minerals and a cup and a half of orange juice. No other juice will do as well.

Try it on yourself. Make sure your chosen all purpose vitamin pill contains all the B vitamins. Take this mix without minerals or OJ. watch your urine and how yellow it is. Then, a day or two later, take the full mix. Vitamins of your choice, good colloidal minerals, and OJ. Now watch your urine. Much less yellow due to much better absorption. I am 70 and it makes a big difference for me.

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Even though the brands you're taking in Bhutan may be different than what is available in the US, could you please list the multivitamin you take? Is there just a single NOW brand colloidal mineral power to mix?

Thanks!

It's very interesting - for me the most important supplement is coenzyme q10 (not a vitamin or a mineral, so I hope I'm not off topic). If I stopped taking it, I might die.

I've tried to stop, just as an experiment, and when I did I added all sorts of things in its place (over the years these things have varied, from super green food powders to liquid multivitamins, and everything else under the sun). And none of them could replicate what the q10 did for me. In other words, just one 100mg Q10 gelcap is more valuable to my body than a whole spectrum of vitamins and minerals.

It made me rethink a few things haha!

Of course I still see the value of vitamins and minerals (and still take them in a liquid form), but I can't really say, with honesty, that a multivitamin/mineral formula has ever actually made me feel noticeably better. I have no doubt they're working on my systems and providing nourishment and repair and so forth, but they've never done anything dramatic. Q10 did something dramatic when I first took it...ditto fish oil.

What does this mean? I'm not sure. Everyone is different and has different requirements. It's pretty fascinating

I don't take anything, I follow my cravings and eat in a way i logically agree with (based on outcome as well).

maybe it's age related? I think it's all hype & placebo is VASTLY underrated as a potential cause of the "benefits".

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Posted by TargeT

I don't take anything, I follow my cravings and eat in a way i logically agree with (based on outcome as well).

maybe it's age related? I think it's all hype & placebo is VASTLY underrated as a potential cause of the "benefits".

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no doubt the placebo phenomena plays a role in some success stories.

but when i first took coq10, my heart was throbbing out of my chest and my breath was shallow and i was in sort of a shock. those symptoms were almost immediately improved upon taking it. it was dramatic and undeniable. i was in such a state when i took that first q10 gelcap that i was actually afraid of what might happen, so if the placebo effect was in play i s'pose i would have felt worse after taking it.

there's a cardiologist out there curing people of heart failure with q10, l-carnitine, magnesium, and d-ribose. his name is stephen sinatra. the science is in; it has been written about extensively. definitely not a placebo.

there's always outliers in everything, your case is rare (and as such, there is no need for you to defend your previous post). I was speaking in generalities and assume we all understand there's a bell curve to everything. for most people supplements are questionable at best in regards to their benefit.

or am I wrong? how many other people do you personally know that even know what coq10 is (I don't).

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Posted by TargeT

there's always outliers in everything, your case is rare (and as such, there is no need for you to defend your previous post). I was speaking in generalities and assume we all understand there's a bell curve to everything. for most people supplements are questionable at best in regards to their benefit.

or am I wrong? how many other people do you personally know that even know what coq10 is (I don't).

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coq10 is pretty ubiquitous now. i mean, you can get it at walgreens.

i don't think my story is very unique. i've read endless stories about the miracles herbs and supplements have played in people's lives.

the stuff isn't cheap dude!:) i doubt all those people in health-food stores would be spending all that money on something that they kinda-sorta felt was helping them somehow. i wouldn't!

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Posted by TargeT

I don't take anything, I follow my cravings and eat in a way i logically agree with (based on outcome as well).

maybe it's age related? I think it's all hype & placebo is VASTLY underrated as a potential cause of the "benefits".

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Yes, the year of my Beatles birthday is rapidly coming to a close. When I was younger, I was invincible and took no vitamins, minerals, or supplements - just food (typical American omnivore diet for the first 20 years.) So, I know what you mean. My metabolism slowed in my mid 30s, and something went wrong with my gut in my 40s and has never been resolved (and may be the epicenter for other medical issues.) Damn, I wish I was invincible again! Trying hard to think back that far, but it seems like I started paying attention to nutrition and then vitamins, after losing some vibrancy. Once I got bigger health issues, I started trying this and that... and I did take a multivitamin for a few years (Alacer "Supergram" II or was it "III.") Trying "this and that", I never stumbled across any combination that was my winning formula back to vibrancy.

If you've seen some of the Wim Hof stuff, you'll have confirmation that your mind, attitude, determination can be a huge factor in health and vibrancy. So, kudos to you and I hope it is lifelong.

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Posted by Mike

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Posted by TargeT

there's always outliers in everything, your case is rare (and as such, there is no need for you to defend your previous post). I was speaking in generalities and assume we all understand there's a bell curve to everything. for most people supplements are questionable at best in regards to their benefit.

or am I wrong? how many other people do you personally know that even know what coq10 is (I don't).

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coq10 is pretty ubiquitous now. i mean, you can get it at walgreens.

i don't think my story is very unique. i've read endless stories about the miracles herbs and supplements have played in people's lives.

the stuff isn't cheap dude!:) i doubt all those people in health-food stores would be spending all that money on something that they kinda-sorta felt was helping them somehow. i wouldn't!

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Mike, your CoQ10 story, with the life-changing results, is like my story with B-12. I have taken CoQ10 - I have a bottle right now that is probably still not at the expired date. I didn't notice anything when I took CoQ10. So, whatever I was expecting was far too subtle and I shrugged and put it with all the other bottles of stuff I've tried. People generally describe B12 as an energy booster. But, for me, it was a life-changing, profound lifting of "brain fog."

Man, just like you could have been a professional CoQ10 salesman after your experience, after about 10 days of (megadoses of) B12, I was stopping people on street corners and knocking on doors asking, "Have you accepted B12 into your life?"

One cannot go from kind of alive to really thrive in one shot.

Those of us living in "modern society" are missing most of the the farming, hunting, food, and healing traditions, and the surrounding plant, animal, water and soil, that nourish some primitive societies.

We who want to thrive must rebuild, in accordance with our particular and changing circumstances, what normally takes many generations, integrated with an unpolluted nature, by many people, to build up.

So I've thinking of a strategy of the following, perhaps because it is roughly what I've done:

Phase 1. I started with the reasonable best "vitamin, mineral" supplement that I could get. I currently use "LifeExtension Mix Powder".

Add to that Vitamin C, in various forms (mostly ascorbic acid, but also asorbyl palmitate and liposomal) up to bowel tolerance. My usual Vitamin C intake is 5 to 10 grams/day, but for example right now I am working some long standing dental issues (probably the most common source of infections in any group eating the foods of "civilization"), and it is taking perhaps 30 grams/day to reach bowel tolerance (stools start to become a bit too lose.)

Also add to that some more Vitamin D and K-2, such as NOW's Vitamin D-3 and K-2 liposomal spray under the tongue, and add some more magnesium, as we usually quite short of that.

Also one of the finer superfood powders, such as Vitamineral Green or Boku Super Food.

This got my base line health stable enough to start Phase 2.

Phase 2 is getting the crap out of the diet and building up a more complete foundation diet.

Our water that we drink, cook in, and bath and wash in, has chloride and fluoride compounds. Many materials in our life have fire retardants in them, which are often bromide based. Almost all our breads have bromide in them. These three halogens compete with and displace iodine. Unfortunately, iodine is critical for life, and chlorine, fluorine and bromine compounds are only toxic, without benefit. I take several forms of iodine, and I have spent thousands of dollars and hundreds, if not thousands, of hours rebuilding my water supply to be clean, nourishing and energized.

Our grains have little useful, none essential, nutrients, but are rich in glyphosphate, a multi-talented toxin. I basically eat no grains anymore. Fortunately I was never a big bread lover anyway.

Sugar is not an essential nutrient. Rather it is a toxic nutrient, though perhaps less toxic than the articifial sugar substitutes. I basically eat nothing with added sugar in it anymore. I also don't eat out any more. Except for those few, trusted brand, high end, super food and vitamin mixes, I only eat (and drink -- I know what's in my water because I put it there) stuff I've prepared from identifiable basic ingredients.

The industrially processed light oils rampant, and rancid, in our foods are toxic. These oils, the omega 3 and 6 oils, are essential building blocks of our cell walls, and the long shelf life industrial mutants of these oils that are abundant in our foods result in weak and sick cell walls. Get rid of them.

I am presently on a ketogenic diet, with modest (sufficient but limited) amounts of proteins, limited amounts of omega 3 and 6 oils (high quality, carefully extracted and stored) in about equal proportion, and a wide array of minerals, such as from a good salt. A good ketones meter, such as the Keto-Mojo, is useful when shifting one's diet into ketosis the first time. I recommend Redmond Real Salt (like Himalayan pink salt, but from Utah.) I also have some organic fruits, vegetables, and for my primary caloric intake lots of saturated and mono-unsaturated fats (avacado, coconut, olive, grass fed butter and cheese, eggs (raw, not cooked), bacon (baked, not fried, with the bacon grease included), macadamia nut, flax (seeds ground fresh in my coffee bean bur grinder), hemp, and probably some others.) Each of these is the best quality organic I can find in the store.

Gut health is essential. The many trillions of little buggies in our intestine out number our "own" (our DNA) cells in our body. Feed them. I have sauerkraut and kim chi daily, as well as yogurt and kefir sometimes.

Phase 3 will take years. One at a time, notice some particular symptom or malady in your body that you'd like to fix. Start reading up on it and on what nutrients might help, or what toxins might be causing the harm. Experiment until that malady is gone. Rinse, lather, repeat. I take perhaps another one or two dozen specific nutrients, spices, supplements and foods, that I found at one time or another to be worth taking.

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Beware - I am neither a docter, lawyer nor Indian chief, and I am totally unqualified to give nutritional advice to even my cat.

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I am my doctor, and food is my medicine.

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Posted by Dennis Leahy

If you've seen some of the Wim Hof stuff, you'll have confirmation that your mind, attitude, determination can be a huge factor in health and vibrancy. So, kudos to you and I hope it is lifelong.

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I do his breathing exercises... I wear uranium ore, I choose to stress my system for the hormetic response, not toss "bed pan bullets" at my digestive track.

I do think it's a matter of mentality, I agree.

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Posted by TargeT

I don't take anything, I follow my cravings and eat in a way i logically agree with (based on outcome as well).

maybe it's age related? I think it's all hype & placebo is VASTLY underrated as a potential cause of the "benefits".

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Me and my family took Vit C on and off for years. My conclusion it doesn't work as advertised. I believe in the placebo too.

"I follow my cravings and eat in a way i logically agree with (based on outcome as well)." this too I do and I am exceptionally healthy at age 53 I still play basketball with my 4 sons age 14 to 24. My stamina is still comparable to theirs although I heal very slowly compared to them when meet with injury. Like when I broke my wrist mildly on the heavy bag. It took more than a year to heal but then I did not have a cast and continued using my hands normally. As to the absorption of nutrients I do believe that its in the blood (vehicle) and roads (veins) that is why I take herbs to cleanse and rejuvenate the blood and veins. Nothing synthetic just boil the plants dried or fresh.

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Posted by Mike

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Posted by TargeT

I don't take anything, I follow my cravings and eat in a way i logically agree with (based on outcome as well).

maybe it's age related? I think it's all hype & placebo is VASTLY underrated as a potential cause of the "benefits".

---

no doubt the placebo phenomena plays a role in some success stories.

but when i first took coq10, my heart was throbbing out of my chest and my breath was shallow and i was in sort of a shock. those symptoms were almost immediately improved upon taking it. it was dramatic and undeniable. i was in such a state when i took that first q10 gelcap that i was actually afraid of what might happen, so if the placebo effect was in play i s'pose i would have felt worse after taking it.

there's a cardiologist out there curing people of heart failure with q10, l-carnitine, magnesium, and d-ribose. his name is stephen sinatra. the science is in; it has been written about extensively. definitely not a placebo.

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Hey Mike, I remember when I first read your testimony about coq10 I told my brother about it and it helps him too. Together with the herbs I made for him and the awareness I imparted to him. However his lifestyle is so stressful. that is why his illness is always coming back or seem cannot recover completely. But he has gone far than before I started him with the herb regimen he can already ride his bike. When it come to supplement I think natural whole form is best. not the extract or isolated type. I think there is a synergy to it.

I would like to add another vitamin to Group 2 that is also not manufactured by the body: Vitamin D. It has been argued that most people are deficient in this rather than Vitamin C, given that it is only available from animal organs such as cod livers or sunshine.

I recommend a listen to any of Sally Fallons talks (of Weston A Price fame), particularly those dealing with the importance of gut health:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=QxMXXKJ7uwA

https://youtube.com/watch?v=fvKdYUCUca8&t=256s

Sometimes I believe using large amounts of isolated vitamins, particularly synthetic vitamins can do more harm than good. An example being calcium. Lots of women take calcium supplements in an attempt to avoid osteoporosis. I have worked with women that keep Gummy calcium candies and take them multiple times throughout the day. Although calcium is needed, if you take large doses of of isolated calcium without other needed nutrients for proper absorption and utilization you can end up with the body depositing it in organs, blood vessels and under the skin. It needs K2, D and magnesium to to utilized. Those are the ones that we know that work in synergy with calcium, I suspect there are more. That's why for the most part I now only use whole food vitamins. They provide the nutrients in a form that can be utilized.

The one isolated vitamin I do take is D, with K2. I take it because I live in the Pacific Northwest and in the winter, there is not enough sun exposure and don't believe the amount provided in the multivitamin is sufficient. I am also a big fan of Tumeric for it's anti inflammatory benefits. I use the Garden of Life whole food, raw multivitamin. One thing I have noticed about the whole food supplementation is that it never causes any stomach upset, which I used to experience with the synthetic vitamins.

I think the supplement industry can be exploitative, and play on people's fears - definitely. However our western diet can be lacking in essential minerals, and lots of people don't eat enough fresh fruit and vegetables.
I know that Vitamin D3 is incredibly valuable, I developed a deficiency about 10 years ago, and I have taken at least 3,000 IU's per day ever since, and have not had one cold, or 'Flu during this time, anecdotal, but I find it compelling.

I know I do not eat enough fruit/veg so I take a multi vitamin just to top up my intake, can't hurt right?

My daughter is a holistic healer, and expert with alternative medicine, she takes a bewildering range of stuff. Bone broth is good, and of course fresh produce.

Since three/four years ago, my partner and I have eaten a whole-foods plant-based diet, almost exclusively organic, and at least 50% raw. We grow already quite a lot of our own (more and more), including herbs, and eat very little processed food (currently only an organic chocolate (ethically sourced to avoid the slave trade)).

Although we do at present take a couple of supplements weekly: B12, D3 and zinc (mainly to ease the mind of my son, who expressed concerns over our diet), I am not at all sure that they are necessary. This argument that 'modern foods don't contain the proper vitamins therefore supplements are necessary' seems a bit suspect to me, as it seems to breed dependency on the pharmaceutical industry. It just doesn't quite smell right to me, intuition-wise.

Maybe we are at an advantage in France as compared with some countries regarding the quality of the produce, maybe not. Not sure.

A couple of years back, I had to take blood and urine tests - and in France they tend to be rather thorough about these things - and all measurable levels were normal, so said the doctor. This was reassuring. At the time I was taking no supplements at all.

Other than that, everything feels healthy for both of us. Neither of us feel deficient in anything.

The jury is out for me... but the gut feel is there (complete with ample amounts of flatulance :blushing: ).

x

M

Hello Dennis ( and all),

my best answer from all 3 baskets of knowledge: one shared by old doctors(MDs) with life experience in GP treatment; that is not the freshly baked programmed products of education keeping in line with government regulations, nazis in short,
secondly basket of researched and personal experience and thirdly, countless tested cases of improvement and recovery from some of the most serious and threatening life conditions is,

if you only have the right time and funds to do something for your life line,
it maybe now but not forever- time flies fast-
eat the alphabet :sun: ( pun not intended).

Do it in a smart manner of testing your own individual needs though.

No matter what any particular lab tests suggest, we often do not know what we do need unless we try( again, no pun intended in this case).

The thing with lab tests and correct amounts of various vitamins and minerals in your blood is that they’re relative, showing traces of chemicals in serum while the same can be missing or not binding sufficiently at places( organs) where they’re needed, for example. Metabolism of anything is complicated and dependant on many co-factors.

If you follow high vitamin diet, it presumes you’re not eating too much at the same time. In that manner, your “testing period” won’t /should not last more than say, 6 weeks in case of relatively healthy individual.
If you’re already in need of particular treatment it’s better to seek advice of advanced MD.

Of Vitamins: you can eat the alphabet, literarily in 2-10 times of so called recommended dosage for couple of weeks without any huge risk.

Examples: vitamin A is of tremendous importance for maintaining healthy eye sight.
You’ll probably buy it in oil based capsules.
Of all “fish oils” you’ve ever eaten, vitamin A is the easiest for us to digest since it isn’t “fish oil” but simple plant based essential oil.
Big pharma is cheating, of course.

B vitamins are big booster and can be again, extremely beneficial in recovery and for all vital functions.

If taken sublingually or in pill form, you can’t really overdose .

Therapeutic dose of various Bs in intra-muscular or intravenous form is hundreds of times higher ( and may well last for weeks to months) but again, not many MDs are well acquainted with capacity of such treatments. On the other hand and those who are - many of them are private clinics these days- get VIP patients and are profiting highly. Tell no one :)

Vitamin C ..starting from recommended aka “daily dose” people do take 1000mg a day nowadays or times more and it helps them under various circumstances, combatting g environmental stress and lost immunity for example.
If you eat lots of citruses everyday and/or are not experiencing environmental stress it’s unnecessary to take that much, of course.

Vitamin D . Here we are again, talk to people who take vitamin D in high doses and swear on it. I do not but it’s individual question, just like the rest.

E can be taken in 2-3 times recommended dose in recovery.

Try the rest for couple of weeks and your body should start listening and responding to you and tell you what you need to continue with and what you don’t need or do not tolerate. If you feel that you don’t like something - simply stop taking it straight away no matter what others think or say.

If your body seems to like it : it probably does need it, for a while.

Problem of minerals is entirely different since minerals are anorganic and we can’t directly feel them, we need them only in traces and unless in specific conditions - even then- there’s a risk of overdose.
So, your multi mineral tablet is a type of solution to that problem and even then, it should not be taken 365 days a year.
It’s hard to say why: no pun intended : it’s hard:) it may accumulate a “slate” in organs like kidneys and result in kidney stones, for example.

In the same way, every mineralised water should be used only periodically- example: magnesium in heart conditions , half a months, then half month break, or 3 weeks and week break,
never continuously without break for years.

The result of overuse of specific minerals are many unknown chronic and developmental conditions that are difficult to get rid off , gout for example.

Big brother says calcium in water is harmless and sells you extra calcium tablets for your osteoporosis but BB usually is wrong. The only good way to metabolise all that calcium would be probably through eating it with adequate binding fats and other organic matter.


Apologies for short entry. Times and morals ..🙏

Keep well is the most important


🕊❤️🕊

“Your Heart is your Temple”