Materialistic Science, Scientific Materialism... and Truth

Follow the Science...or Follow the Money?

I wanted to start this thread with the following interview with Dr. Kaufman, which I hope will help to set the tone for a good, civilized, non-volatile discussion (if that is possible :nod:).
Also, hopefully, start a compilation of some of the best articles, videos, etc. which may help to wean people off of dependency on the mainstream narrative.
And to help open more minds to trying some critical thinking outside the box and connecting the dots on their own.


I became very concerned recently with the way things are shaping up these days on the forum.
...After the last big meltdown over Q, when Paul the last Administrator left-- due in large part to his inflexible political bias, as far as I could tell-- a lot of the Mod team quit, and pretty much the whole forum was in disarray.

(Also at that time, former Avalonian Bob, who was a leader of the pro-5G faction on Avalon, executed a lot of moves that seemed to prove fairly conclusively that he was a sociopath or possibly a psychopath, and maybe even some kind of shill, which certainly added to the confusion. )

What has me concerned NOW are opinions expressed and disparaging remarks made by Avalon's new Administrator, Frank V. (formerly Aragorn) on a recent thread:
In particular:
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1375804

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1375851

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1375926

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1376035


I have been a member of Avalon since the beginning, and I always felt that Avalon was a forum designed to look outside the box, where it is safe and also encouraged to dissent and to challenge the mainstream narratives.

And if the goal of Avalon is to provide a meeting place for science and spirituality, then I think the science expressed here is going to have to divest itself of it's usual arrogance and not assume it has the last word, or that it will ever outdo Mother Nature in her wisdom, hard as it may try.

Some of the wisest human beings of all time were not stuck-in-the-head intellectuals, but were very intuitive and heart-centered; whereas "accepted" science has often been proven wrong, the perennial wisdom of our greatest spiritual leaders endures, however it may be clouded over by human ignorance.

Two of my own foremost personal concerns are the huge discrepancies between the mainstream narrative and the alternative research concerning vaccines and 5G, not just because I have bad bad experiences with both, but because I find the alternative research so convincing, which, imho, demonstrates them both to be deadly and part of a larger, very dark agenda.

An agenda which includes the current Covid crisis, and the part it is apparently playing in bringing about a NWO worldwide system of technocracy in which the public's every move will be monitored and to a large extent, controlled through digital currency, 5G, mandatory vaccines, down to the very alteration of our DNA.

Whether or not we may think this will all actually happen or not is not the point--the point is that we need to be aware of it, and take whatever steps we can from there to prevent it.

I hope that Avalon will continue to be a platform where this can be done.
Frank V. may be a scientist, but I don't think one has to be a scientist or have a genius IQ to sense that there is something very "off" about what the "accepted" science is trying to feed us.

Intuitives operating from the third eye are often far ahead of intellectuals in discerning the truth, and much more able to quickly connect the dots, not through incremental thinking, but through clairvoyance, which is a superior kind of gift, much as that may baffle those who are limited to 3rd chakra perception.

So I don't think science, which is so often wrong, and has led us down the paths to disaster again and again should have the last word on anything.

That leads us straight into the trap of technocracy, a path on which we have already come too far.

Here is that interview with Dr Kaufman. It's long, but worth watching to the end, imho, and deals very calmly and positively with such serious subject matter. :flower: :sun:

Dr. Andrew Kaufman: COVID Reveals Pathology of Scientific Materialism & Need to (re)THINK Health
19,422 views•Jun 22, 2020
MobilityMastery
19.1K subscribers

"This is a special video for me and Mobility Mastery: my first interview! And I feel so honored that my first guest is Dr. Andrew Kaufman.

Dr. Kaufman is a physician (medical doctor) who specializes in mental and emotional health as a trained psychiatrist. Dr. Kaufman spent time at MIT studying molecular biology before pursuing his doctorate. He has worked with cancer patients, AIDS patients and spent time in pediatrics before pursuing forensic psychiatry as his specialty.

As a physician who specializes in mental and emotional health, and someone who is clearly intelligent and open-minded, Dr. Kaufman is the perfect person to help us learn about our underlying health crises during this time in 2020.

We dive into mental and emotional health, what our response to covid suggests about our underlying psychology and programmed behaviors, as well the broader view of modern medicine and science generally in today’s world.

Dr. Kaufman shares his insight from the inside of medicine, where he got a front row seat to the suffering and reliance on pharmaceutical drugs to “treat” patients who are rarely expected to recover, let alone find lasting healing (or be “cured”).

While I’m not one to shy away from controversial topics (or so-called conspiracy theories), since Dr. Kaufman has already made the rounds repeating the same evidence and story about the PCR test, the uselessness of masks and other clinical topics related specifically to covid-19, I chose to go broader and deeper in order to try and make sense of the paradigm we’re in.

What level of thinking has created all this pain we see in the world, whether physical, mental, emotional, social? Why did we declare war on cancer (and now covid-19), only to rely ever more heavily on drugs that don’t work and why aren’t we willing to see the evidence that these drugs aren’t working?

During our time together, Dr. Kaufman shares a story about cancer that helped to wake him up from what he calls the “brainwashing” he experienced in medical school. Since then he’s been exploring natural healing, and wishes to help people heal mind and body by natural laws and nature’s intelligence, rather than through pharmaceutical drugs as he was taught.

This man is a true hero (to me). He was fired from his job for speaking out about the PCR tests and the fallacy of wearing masks. He is risking his personal reputation for a greater cause: to help people who are ready to reclaim their bodily sovereignty and be the sole authority over their health. This takes courage and responsibility for ALL of us, and he is certainly walking his talk as a leader in this way.

At the end of this video Dr. Kaufman shares a moving story that fits so well with my mission here at Mobility Mastery: to be an advocate for all pain - mental, emotional, physical - because it is through our pain that we wake up, and if we’re willing to feel the pain and get curious about it (rather than reactive and resist feeling it), we can earn superpowers that last a lifetime.

I hope you enjoy this as much as I did, and please share your thoughts below.
Learn more about Dr. Kaufman here: https://www.andrewkaufmanmd.com/

Dr. Kaufman’s YouTube channel 👉 https://bit.ly/2NdKOOH

PCR test issues, and are viruses the same as exosomes? 👉 https://bit.ly/3dgqPtz

Va((ines vs Reality: 👉 https://bit.ly/3hLyH9D

The Doctor Who Doesn’t Believe in Covid-19 👉 https://bit.ly/3fCCTXs

Unmasking the Lies Around Covid-19 (Brian Rose/London Real interview) 👉 https://bit.ly/3hOvLcy "

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=8JPrYNOJ0Ys

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Posted by onawah

What has me concerned NOW are opinions expressed and disparaging remarks made by Avalon's new Administrator, Frank V. (formerly Aragorn) on a recent thread:

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Hi Natalie.

Regardless of the the way you may feel that Frank wrongly presented himself, and his opinions, why do you somehow think he has no right to do so as a member of this forum? Is it just because his name is in red?

There's an awful lot of strong and boisterous opinions being thrown around this forum these days, including yours, why are his so much different?

I'm genuinely curious.

Hi Gracy,
Please show where I stated that Frank has no right to present his opinions.
It was the way in which he presented his opinions in that thread that I object to, as being superior because he is a scientist, and KNOWS (therefore presumably cannot be questioned--as if scientific knowledge is the only kind that matters, when in fact it is often wrong, which can lead to disastrous consequences.).
Because of his disparaging remarks about dissenters on Avalon, because of the assumptions he made about said dissenters (implying they are reactionary, without credibility, too lazy to do real research, gullible etc.).
In part because he is in a position of power as the Administrator ( however he may dispute that, I think the value of his technical skills as Admin afford him a somewhat privileged status--evinced by how long it finally was before Paul, the previous Admin's political bias --and how it was affecting the Q controversy --was finally called into serious question during the last meltdown on Avalon.
Because 3 Avalonians were banned from the thread Frank started (ostensibly because they were derailing the thread, but I think in large part because they disagreed with Frank).
In part I think that was because they and other dissenters re the mainstream narratives about such issues as the safety of 5G and vaccines -- have demonstrated more than adequately on various threads that there is more than sufficient proof from expert scientists and other credible sources that Frank's opinions can most certainly be contested, and convincingly so.
And because if he intends to present himself as an expert, then I think he should have the courtesy to present his credentials, however low his opinion of Avalon dissenters may be.
He may have done so in the past, but I for one have never seen them, and I am sure others have not as well.

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Posted by Gracy May

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Posted by onawah

What has me concerned NOW are opinions expressed and disparaging remarks made by Avalon's new Administrator, Frank V. (formerly Aragorn) on a recent thread:

---

Hi Natalie.

Regardless of the the way you may feel that Frank wrongly presented himself, and his opinions, why do you somehow think he has no right to do so as a member of this forum? Is it just because his name is in red?

There's an awful lot of strong and boisterous opinions being thrown around this forum these days, including yours, why are his so much different?

I'm genuinely curious.

---

Quote:

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Posted by onawah

Hi Gracy,
Please show where I stated that Frank has no right to present his opinions.
It was the way in which he presented his opinions in that thread that I object to, as being superior because he is a scientist, and KNOWS (therefore presumably cannot be questioned--as if scientific knowledge is the only kind that matters, when in fact it is often wrong, which can lead to disastrous consequences.).

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Sometimes Natalie, I'm not a fan of how Frank presents himself either. But so f##king what! Guess what, we all don't always see eye to eye in the mod room either.

And do you think for one minute that us mods, including Frank, are always fans of how certain members here present themselves ever so arrogantly, over and over and over again, like broken records?

Yet we don't start brand new threads about it, when there are plentiful others on the same subject to do it on, in this case including the one you are so dang upset about.

Is it possible you're just pissed because he walked away from that conversation?

Anyway, please carry on. The floor is yours.

I didn't have a problem with him walking away from the conversation at all.
In fact, I was relieved. I already felt there was enough to deal with.
I haven't seen any other threads focusing on concerns with Frank's agreeing with the mainstream narratives or his way of expressing his opinions, and wanted to start a thread where others who have the same concern can converse.
We have been doing so in PMs, but it's easier if we have a thread where we can connect as a group.
Why is it that you are so upset about this in particular?

I was just telling a close friend that I've always felt very strongly about the dangers of 5G and vaccines, but if I was challenged on my beliefs I wouldn't be able to coherently explain them. Not too well anyway. Because my actual knowledge is quite limited.

I think there's quite a few of us like that in the alt. community. In general we know a little about a lot; our intellectual ocean is wide but not terribly deep. We listen/watch plenty of videos - and videos are great! - but we're at work or puttering around the house and maybe not totally engaged. And in general we're not fact checking every last detail being uttered by the interviewee. Who has the time anyway? I'm describing myself here, and assuming - rightly or wrongly - that many of you guys are like me.

So, in other words, I have strong feelings and intuitions based on the little I do know about certain things, but I wouldn't last 5 seconds in an intellectual debate on some of it. I even have direct experience of the weakening effects of WIFI - it's plagued me for years! - but I couldn't argue my points scientifically, or even begin to change the mind of someone who has combed the literature and found nothing to suggest any harmful effects.

So I pick and choose my battles. Or I don't battle at all. I know what I know, and that's good enough for me. But if the goal is to convince others, I know I have to do better than tell my personal story or quote videos; I need facts, science, citations, studies, so forth. And fair enough.

But that's not always as straightforward as it sounds; I'll concede that. It costs an enormous amount of money to do scientific studies - at least ones that will be universally recognized anyway - and the drug companies aren't exactly lining up to do expensive, potentially damaging studies to their brand. And even if they do, how can they be trusted? They can't be, and neither can the FDA, who are clearly and demonstrably in bed with them. So who can we trust? These days, information is so corrupted that it's difficult if not impossible to tell in some instances.

The problem is, we simply don't know enough. And we don't all have the time to research it all. It doesn't mean we throw our hands up in the air and declare it all hopeless. We do the best we possibly can with the information we have. And that information, for the most part, should be scientifically based. But, due to the corruption of information, due to conflicts of interests, due to moral and ethical and financial corruption etc etc, we know that even that information will never be completely accurate...

...And that's where the intuition comes in. In this life, you have to just trust people sometimes. You can't go to medical school maybe, you can't do these studies on your own, you don't have access to a lab...so you have to trust the people that do. This isn't blind faith. I'm simply saying that after collecting as much info as time and energy allows on something, there will still be some blank spaces. And intuition usually fills that void. It tells you what info to seek out and who to listen to, among other things. And for each person it may be different, because we all have different challenges that may require different solutions.

So science and intuition aren't necessarily at cross purposes. Science and so called "conspiracy" aren't always at cross purposes either. The mainstream media and the alt media aren't always at cross purposes. They can often work together, alchemically, to provide us with something resembling truth. I say "resembling" truth, because we may not always know for sure when it comes to things like 5g and vaccines, but we can get pretty close to sure maybe, if we're diligent and reasonable; and I say "resembling truth" because in some instances my truth might be your conspiracy, and vice versa. I gave the example earlier of how I'm weakened by WIFI; well some people just refuse to believe that. And that's ok, because this is largely an individual journey, and we all discover things in our own time and in our own ways. And we tend to discover the specific things we need to discover for our own personal journeys; that's how the universe seems to operate, from my perspective anyway.

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Posted by Mike

I was just telling a close friend that I've always felt very strongly about the dangers of 5G and vaccines, but if I was challenged on my beliefs I wouldn't be able to coherently explain them. Not too well anyway. Because my actual knowledge is quite limited.

...........................
I pick and choose my battles. Or I don't battle at all. I know what I know, and that's good enough for me. But if the goal is to convince others, I know I have to do better than tell my personal story or quote videos; I need facts, science, citations, studies, so forth. And fair enough.

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This week I have been feeling quite disheartened. I like you have felt strongly about what is "good" for me. I encounter so many people in my daily life who are (even apart for the present covid issues) feeling ill, lacking meaningful work, feeling outrage about political issues, feeling LOST.

The people I have "looked up to" have demonstrated to me that "Mind is the builder" (Edgar Cayce). Mind Has been equated to "Love", "Source", "Infinity", "All Possibility".

One of the most meaningful lessons I incorporated was in the form of the Kybalion. It was written in English in 1908 and purported to be a passed down teaching from Hermes Trismegistus. It was maybe made up? I don't know? It seems bedrock to me. The material world is an expression of principles.

THE PRINCIPLE OF MENTALISM.
THE PRINCIPLE OF CORRESPONDENCE.
THE PRINCIPLE OF VIBRATION.
THE PRINCIPLE OF POLARITY.
THE PRINCIPLE OF RHYTHM.
THE PRINCIPLE OF CAUSE AND EFFECT.
THE PRINCIPLE OF GENDER.

As above so below, as within so without.

I studied from a teacher who demonstrated a stepwise progression from the bottom to top. Each principle is less "material" and more free. Mentalism or consciousness trumps all and can be seen to over rule the rest.

How this relates to Scientific Materialism? One sees the many many ways in which consciousness is determinately left out of the equation of the physical/material sciences. For instance, in the Scientific Materialism view of "health sciences" the understanding of the placebo/nocebo effect is not REALLY acknowledged. Definitely it is not employed or valued by "Modern Medicine". OR perhaps it is understood and used against us.

For instance, I have a friend with SEVERE scoliosis. She feels convinced that there is nothing she can do about her situation. It is literally killing her and yet she is too fragile to have surgery. However in the many testimonials for Joe Dispenza who does understand the placebo effect, IF she accessed her own consciousness, she could literally reshape her spine. It would take effort, practice, but willingness to believe she could IS the first step.

I am certainly ir-religious but I appreciate that in the Bible, there is directive to use consciousness for healing. The faith of prayer, knowing one has received the outcome IS using consciousness. This is just one example but vastly important to our mundane LIFE.

The thing about Truth (and why I value truth and love it and think about it and want to push for it) IS that when something is TRUE, IT IS TRUE no matter what we claim. But this is not evident IMO when we focus just on examples. Paraphrase "Whether you think you Can or Cannot, you are right". IMO what we are seeing now in the INSANE splits of opinion and experience now is like the extreme of shatter where people are observing the fruit of their own minds in real time.

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An understanding of this great hermetic Principle of Mentalism enables the individual to readily grasp the laws of the Mental Universe, and to apply the same to his well-being and advancement. The Hermetic Student is enabled to apply intelligently the great Mental Laws, instead of using them in a haphazard manner. With the Master-Key in his possession, the student may unlock the many doors of the mental and psychic temple of knowledge, and enter the same freely and intelligently. This Principle explains the true nature of "Energy," "Power," and "Matter," and why and how all these are subordinate to the Mastery of Mind. One of the old Hermetic Masters wrote, long ages ago: "He who grasps the truth of the Mental Nature of the Universe is well advanced on The Path to Mastery." And these words are as true to-day as at the time they were first written. Without this Master-Key, Mastery is impossible, and the student knocks in vain at the many doors of The Temple.

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I have been thinking a lot about David Ickes over weaning message that we live in an illusory reality. Our awareness is paramount.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=9VW6ldq2zsI

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Posted by Delight

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Posted by Mike

I was just telling a close friend that I've always felt very strongly about the dangers of 5G and vaccines, but if I was challenged on my beliefs I wouldn't be able to coherently explain them. Not too well anyway. Because my actual knowledge is quite limited.

...........................
I pick and choose my battles. Or I don't battle at all. I know what I know, and that's good enough for me. But if the goal is to convince others, I know I have to do better than tell my personal story or quote videos; I need facts, science, citations, studies, so forth. And fair enough.

---

This week I have been feeling quite disheartened. I like you have felt strongly about what is "good" for me. I encounter so many people in my daily life who are (even apart for the present covid issues) feeling ill, lacking meaningful work, feeling outrage about political issues, feeling LOST.

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If you're feeling disheartened then it may be you're feeling disempowered, those cicumstances and events must have a purpose. Could they not be the ideal to understand the presence of your own vibration at this moment?

I think that respectful discussion of 5G is essential --the rate it is being brought into being in UK without meaningful debate in Parliament is worrying.
Same with vaccines.
Having been banned in Avalon for the firs time after many years posting.
I find this worrying.

In the main I was responding to points brought up on that thread -- no intention or ability to derail it.

My point on tests also now validated by the German Dr team The tests are not fit for purpose.
To be banned from a thread without warning is not spiritual.

It was politely pointed out that I repeat post --yes true but that is to combat the propaganda repeated incessantly.
In a war am I only allowed to fire my gun once?

Make no mistake this is a spiritual war, the misery and hardship --depression ill health --suicide caused is evil and intended.

This forum should be welcoming open debate within its rules, it always has, not quite sure it does on some subjects now.
Chris

But then, there are many different types of scientists, Natalie :)

Some may be intuitive people ( example Aragorn ), some super-intuitive ( Nicola Tesla), some simply meticulous people collecting data living mostly in anonymity and after getting through the pains of dissertation work some do not come with any original idea at all. Some are experts in one narrow field and others work on the Big Picture views.
Guess you and Frank are just different kinds of scientists. Also the “point of observation” actually matters.

Starting from simple questions such “how do you live, what kind of PC do you use, what’s your technical knowledge and ability in that area, does WiFi in the room disturb you - there’s usually cable and mobile internet option depending where you live of course, have you observed any clinical effects in proximity to 5G or 5G tower yourself , what kind of internet speed would you prefer ? and so forth ),
the way people report about this and their experience with technology may wary.

Frank there was simply trying to explain that 5G is not a “new technology” per se, it is just another , slightly higher bandwidth range to use completely on par with 3G and 4G.
There’s 6G and 7G in development in Finland and some other countries far ahead now, as well.

Just to let you know that the 5G band of frequencies is already in use by many militaries in the world for their fast satellite communications and data transmissions for which reason alone , public use of the band is so far being restricted.

It all “would not have to be so” if not for producing devices with limited bandwidth, similarly to radios that will have to be mostly replaced after the next option is adopted by it all will take a decade or two.


The problem with extreme views and methods is always manifold.


You would not even guess how many people with interest in alternative sciences and spirituality start training themselves in various “psychic arts” after attending some of these groups and forums and instead of becoming life’s true scientists they better practice “remote viewing”( the other people) and “remote influencing” ( or similar kind of old-new magic) thinking they’re involved in some big intergalactic game that involves -of course :)- various favorite political figures, media personalite and even scientists I guess).
It’s a new type of social madness whose beginnings could be probably traced to early years of internet and what some of us only heard about-
social reality games with names like “second Life” and “Dragons and Dungeons”.


Anyway. We may be witness to whole new supercomputer times coming, digital wars and finally even the birth of Neo who will be faster than the fastest computer in the world.

Imagine this and when trains were built and introduced as public transport some people cheered and others feared they’re dangerous and will damage the landscape.


Sounds a bit anecdotal nowadays :)


I’m sure and if the direction is correct the aim is to make technologies as seamless, harmless and user friendly as possible.

Quite like ET technologies, I’d say.

But will the “earth horders” and barbarian fighters with big guns destroy the way ahead , ahead , ahead ..



The end of transmission 🐳

P.S.: It would not even surprise me if there was complicated military psy-ops behind the hardcore anti-5G movement trying to clandestinely disinform public on how 5G is dangerous because it is actively in use by most militaries and super-militaries in the world, replacing -upgrading the frequency in full scale will take years to come and anything to do with military is considered matter of priority, national security etc.

and they are in “war” with internet providers and big company CEOs over the rights and legacy and access to certain technical levels at all times.

So in my opinion, they may be delaying the release of 5G as long as possible , at least and till they can upgrade.


The internet in itself became so dominant feature in certain stratas of modern society these days that some people do live in trance and full dependency on it and in itself this is very dangerous and yourself you’ve posted documentaries about this phenomenon , anyway.


🙏🦢🌟

I am not anti anything --even evil has its place in duality.
Gives choice.
Where I have a challenge is professionals reputation being downgrade because they posted on U Tube and Avalon members being lumped into anti vax and other labels possibly because they have posted Vaxxed movie and other informative pieces.
To lampoon Dr Andrew Wakefield who has done sterling work to educate the public --he is not antivax by the way, shows lack of knowledge on the subject.
Possibly Robert F Kennedy Jnr would also be disregarded.

In one thread quite a lot of arrogance was shown and disrespect for some members views.

Avalon to my mind needs to show a united body against the tyranny that is going on, while still having respect for opposing views.
Im for science -- it has shown the tests and the masks not fit for pupose.
Thats probably why so many Dr's, Scientists, professionals had their videos taken down on u tub and reputations wrecked by fact checkers.
Chris

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Posted by greybeard

I think that respectful discussion of 5G is essential

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Yes. We support that.

We created a whole section on 5G (I did that myself), which right now contains 9 threads on which anyone concerned about 5G-related issues (of any kind whatsoever) can post as often as they like.

I wrote on 4 April this year:

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Posted by Bill Ryan

We've added a new section under Conspiracy Research, called 5G. We'll move the various existing 5G-related threads there, with a permanent redirect. :thumbsup:

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With that dedicated resource available, what's not okay is to spam other threads with 5G-related polemic when the thread creator has tried to present information of their own that lies in a different field.

What happened on Frank's thread A Supercomputer Analyzed Covid-19, and an Interesting New Theory Has Emerged was that several people immediately derailed the entire thing by injecting more 5G opinions.

That wasn't what the thread was about. Those who are concerned about 5G (and often rightly so, for many reasons) have a whole public subforum of their own.

The new science Frank posted was good. It may not be easy for some to understand, but that's no reason to spam the thread with uninformed opinions without even trying to think about it.

Chris Martenson immediately devoted a whole video about a possible Bradykinin storm, which might tell us all something. I posted that on the thread. How many critics of Frank's opinions have actually watched that? (That's a rhetorical question.)

Frank was personally very frustrated (he shared his disappointment privately with the mods first) — but (@onawah) so are you. We do need some allowance and understanding here.

The forum encourages and supports discussion on almost anything. Be appreciative of that, and use the platform that you absolutely do have. But we will occasionally block members from some threads who abuse their privilege, which is pretty considerable for every single person reading this.

Bill this just one part that Frank posted

"Again, with all due respect, but the denialist reactions I am seeing here at Project Avalon are based upon nothing but paranoid knee-jerk rejections of anything that even remotely reeks of the word "mainstream" ─ unless it comes from Fox News, apparently ─ as well as so-called "expert opinions" from YouTube talking heads with an agenda who can very easily influence those who never studied any sciences, and a huge amount of cognitive bias, supported by anecdotal evidence because a few mistakes have been made here and there in testing and/or counting infected people. And once again, had the US government ─ and to a lesser extent the British government ─ not been so incompetent, then those anecdotal mistakes would perhaps never even have been made."

I'm a scientist, Chris. I don't do knee-jerks and I don't listen to opinionated talking heads. I know what I know because I've studied it, and I understand it. "

Frank sounds so much like a fact checker here -- downgrading what members say --not just me as knee jerk.

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1375804
5G mention by onawah here is a valid question to my mind
"I wonder how many of those symptoms are also caused by (or made worse by) 5G."
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1375843

The test were reliable-- not so.
Frank said
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1375847
"That was only true in North America, and specifically so in the USA, because the US CDC had mixed up the test kits with test kits for the flu.
In the rest of the world however, the tests were reliable."

I could go on but the there seems to be an essence of support for the narrative of the Elite.
Frank is entitled to any view he holds --however its not what he said but the superior arrogant way in which it was conveyed.
Some of it not true
Some perhaps libellous re Wakefield.
Quite a few members were upset, believe me.

Chris

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Posted by greybeard

Bill this just one part that Frank posted

"Again, with all due respect, but the denialist reactions I am seeing here at Project Avalon are based upon nothing but paranoid knee-jerk rejections of anything that even remotely reeks of the word "mainstream" ─ unless it comes from Fox News, apparently ─ as well as so-called "expert opinions" from YouTube talking heads with an agenda who can very easily influence those who never studied any sciences, and a huge amount of cognitive bias, supported by anecdotal evidence because a few mistakes have been made here and there in testing and/or counting infected people. And once again, had the US government ─ and to a lesser extent the British government ─ not been so incompetent, then those anecdotal mistakes would perhaps never even have been made.

I'm a scientist, Chris. I don't do knee-jerks and I don't listen to opinionated talking heads. I know what I know because I've studied it, and I understand it. "

Frank sounds so much like a fact checker here -- downgrading what members say --not just me as knee jerk.

https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1375804
5G mention by onawah here is a valid question to my mind
I wonder how many of those symptoms are also caused by (or made worse by) 5G.
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1375843

The test were reliable-- not so.
Frank said
https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1375847
That was only true in North America, and specifically so in the USA, because the US CDC had mixed up the test kits with test kits for the flu.

In the rest of the world however, the tests were reliable.

I could go on but the there seems to be an essence of support for the narrative of the Elite.
Frank is entitled to any view he holds --however its not what he said but the superior arrogant way in which it was conveyed.
Some of it not true
Some actually libellous re Wakefield.
Quite a few members were upset, believe me.

Chris
Chris

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Jeez, Chris.

Watch Chris Martenson's video and then come back and post again when you understand more. If you don't understand it (which is forgivable) — but really want to — watch it another time through.

If you don't want to understand it, then don't post about it.

That's pretty ****ing simple. (I typed in those asterisks manually to make the point. :) )

This topic is important, because it actually might explain the operation of the entire virus.

OF COURSE, 5G will weaken the immune system. 4G and 3G do, too. We should all turn off our domestic Wi-Fi when sleeping, for instance. There are already posts about that, years ago. But that's not what this was about.

Frank was legitimately frustrated. He had Covid himself. It's real.

He has some underlying health issues. So do many humans. If you do, I hope you never get this thing.

But for a self-proclaimed spiritual person, Chris, have some ******ed empathy.

(I typed in those asterisks, too.)

And I'll say this again. Don't post about something if you don't understand it — unless you want to understand it and are asking a question. That's always, always, fine. You may really not fully appreciate what opportunities there are here on Avalon to better understand just about anything at all.

Chris, you understand very little science. That's not a hanging offense, at all. But maybe just devote yourself to things you DO understand.

And knowing what you do and don't understand is a strength. It might be that there are some Avalon members who don't fully possess that.

to add
"Andrew Wakefield, the hero of the anti-vaxx movement, is a proven fraud, who was found guilty of not only having falsified his research at the benefit of a law firm involved in a high-profile lawsuit against a pharmaceutical company ─ and for the record, I'm not exactly a fan of the pharmaceutical industry ─ but also of having grossly violated all ethics by injecting a number of unwitting teenagers at a party without their explicit consent, and of having treated his official patients unprofessionally and with total disregard for their wellbeing. And all of those things are documented. You don't have to believe me. Just consult with the British register for why Andrew Wakefield was barred from ever practising medicine again."

Wakefield may be the hero of the anti vax people but he himself is on record as stating he is not anti vax --if its safe effective properly tested he is for it.
Wakefield was pilloried because he found inconvenient truth.
What he has stated in VAXXED movie is true or he would have been subject to a massive libel suite --same goes for what Robert F Kennedy Jnr is saying -- and Judy Mikovitz.
The cabal is in fear.
My and others knee jerk reactions took hours -- days -- months of studying what recognized Dr's experts posted on u tube
When I have been mistaken I have apologised.
Chris

Bill please point to what I have said that is inaccurate.
I cross reference and the overwhelming evidence is Covid no worse than seasonal flu the tests no fit for purpose -- the tests there fore weaponised to keep lockdown continuing Masks ineffective and dangerous in some cases.

Im happy to be corrected.
My compassion is for those suffering from Covid19 im not a disbeliever and those who suffer the consequences of lock down --etc
My signature shows where i come from -- its not an esccape from liability for what I post.
Chris

Im not contesting the value of Franks opening post nor the value of the subject.
I am all for progress in science and computers -- not sure about AI though as it could be miss used.
My comments about AI were misplaced, for that I apologize.

My concern is not Franks opinions.
It was the way he expressed, thats all.
Im sure if we were face to face we would get on.
I am aware that the condition he suffers from can make interaction with other difficult--for that I have compassion.
So I apologize for any upset I caused -- but stand by the rest.

Chris

Quote:

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Posted by greybeard

Bill please point to what I have said that is inaccurate.
I cross reference and the overwhelming evidence is Covid no worse than seasonal flu the tests no fit for purpose -- the tests there fore weaponised to keep lockdown continuing Masks ineffective and dangerous in some cases.

Im happy to be corrected.
My compassion is for those suffering from Covid19 im not a disbeliever and those who suffer the consequences of lock down --etc
My signature shows where i come from -- its not an esccape from liability for what I post.
Chris

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I don't know if you're correct about Andrew Wakefield or not. I apply to myself exactly what I stressed above: if I don't know enough about something, or maybe I just don't understand it well, I don't post about it.

You'll see that in everything I do. I don't think I've ever posted about Wakefield, ever. And, to illustrate my own point in a different field, I've never offered an opinion about chemtrails. (I don't know what they are.) Or gardening. Or cooking. Or art. Or out-of-the-body-experiences, because I've never had one. Or baseball. :)

I'm pretty intellectually honest that way. And if ever I offer an opinion, which is just an opinion and might well be wrong, I make sure I state the caveat.

But there's other stuff I absolutely DO know about, so I usually stick to my strengths, and I absolutely know what those are.

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Posted by greybeard

My concern is not Franks opinions.
It was the way he expressed, thats all.
Im sure if we were face to face we would get on.
I am aware that the condition he suffers from can make interaction with other difficult--for that I have compassion.

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Do you have any idea at all how insulting those words are? :shocked:

What's next ─ are you also going to claim that "my condition" affects my judgment, or perhaps my sanity? Because it's only a small step from what you wrote to the innuendo that I might be intellectually or cognitively impaired, Chris.

I'm afraid Frank V's expressions in this thread come across more like a religious zealot than a "scientist" to me. Science does not work in the way he asserts. It requires to interact with the natural world, not dictate it.

In particular, contrary to many of his allusions in that thread such as on the subject of 5G and vaccines, the scientific method does not work in reverse. It's a one way process that goes from hypothesis to proof. That means that, while it's quite good at demonstrating that "phenomenon X" has "effect Y" on "phenomenon Z", it's almost useless at demonstrating that it holistically doesn't since you're required to hypothesise what "effect Y" would be at the outset - (commonly known as "guessing").

I can take 500 people, give them all 20 cigarettes a day to smoke for 2 weeks in double-blind controlled tests, check them all for lung cancer a month later and proudly declare that "science has 'proven' smoking doesn't cause lung cancer" because I did everything scientifically and wrote it up in a peer reviewed journal.

It would still be wrong and the masses of people that suspected so, along with those that were skeptical of asbestos safety, toxic food additives, the earth being flat instead of round, vaccine safety and the idea that an invisible fluid called "phlogiston" was responsible for heat transfer...would still all be right.

Religion works in a hierarchical structure where a "deity" representative who's more in touch with God than you are brokers the communications and tells you "how things are". Science does not work like this which is why you don't need a degree in dentistry to demand that he look again at your tooth if you still have toothache a week later after an appointment. It is a mutual process of discovery.

People don't get on planes because aerodynamicists wave complex equations at them. They get on them because they see others doing so and not falling out of the sky. Thereby deploying the "scientific method" to their own ends despite not being institutionally anointed "scientists". The scientific method is open to everyone and SHOULD be practiced by everyone, not least as due diligence to prevent institutionalised science (a very different thing) from being corrupted as it so often is.

Lets just take 2 examples - 5G and climate "warming". The frequency range from roughly 2 GHz to 100 GHz which contains the microwave spectrum is KNOWN to be dangerous to humans. That is because as the wavelength reduces it is increasingly absorbed by whatever is "in the way" instead of passing straight through it. This property is put to use for example with microwave ovens. The entire basis for declaring this frequency band "safe" is the level of intensity alone. (i.e. it's simply turned down till it "shouldn't" affect us). However there are many problems with this approach: one is that sticking a few hundred mice in front of a 5G repeater for a year or two and checking if any of them are dead at the end of it is not remotely the same thing as detecting, say, cognitive difficulties in a 7 year old child amongst hundreds of millions who are brought up in an environment bathed in low-level microwave electromagnetic radiation. If anyone tells you otherwise they don't understand the scientific method, regardless of how institutionally "rubber stamped" they may be.

Another problem is the inverse-square law. Electromagnetic propagation intensity is far from linear. If there's enough power for you to watch a Harry Potter movie on a 30'' Hi-def screen in your home over a 5G signal coming from the street, then there's about 10,000 times that intensity at a hundredth of the distance from the repeater (which is where you'll be when you're out shopping).

Scientific institutions SHOULD acknowledge that but they largely don't because they're guided by the priorities of their paymasters at LEAST as much as dispassionate interpretation of scientific observations. The peer review process is only as good as its consumers (us) make it. It can be anything from a valuable validation tool to a monumental group-think fail.

The "climate" propaganda is a good example of how it's ended up as the latter. It isn't very difficult to categorically demonstrate that CO2 is not a significant factor in climate temperature. This is because emissivity is a gas property which, while it may allow to the gas to heat up quicker, is not a factor in its temperature at radiative equilibrium which is required by Kirchoff's law and conservation of energy in the absence of an ever-increasing supply of solar heat. This is far more "settled science" than the "greenhouse" fairytale which, if true, would have cooked us to ta crisp eons ago along with many other planets.

We are at a time in human history when "science" has never been in greater need of being cross-examined, questioned and having its assertions challenged where its consumers (us !) find they do not square. In that regard, people asserting "I am a scientist, I understand where you do not" over concerning issues should be attributed a similar level of trust as insurance salesmen IMO.

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Posted by Frank V

Quote:

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Posted by greybeard

My concern is not Franks opinions.
It was the way he expressed, thats all.
Im sure if we were face to face we would get on.
I am aware that the condition he suffers from can make interaction with other difficult--for that I have compassion.

---

Do you have any idea at all how insulting those words are? :shocked:

What's next ─ are you also going to claim that "my condition" affects my judgment, or perhaps my sanity? Because it's only a small step from what you wrote to the innuendo that I might be intellectually or cognitively impaired, Chris.

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Frank now you really are misunderstanding me.
Bill said I should show compassion I have.
Your intellect and understanding, sanity not in question.
I accept what I said open to misunderstanding -- again I apologize -- not my intent.
I am sorry you felt insulted.
Chris
Ps I said if we were face to face Im sure we would get on--I stand by that--comunication mainly non-verbal --in the smile --etc

Key is, to focus on your own energy, staying in self-honesty NOT being "blasted away" just because some one has "opinions" based upon so called "titles" or status ("authority") as they are just excuses to stay myopic & having wilful blinders on (tunnel-vision).

One-dimensional reasoning. Projecting their OBVIOUS short-comings on others. Plus often falsely assuming that "you must be duped" as they are suppose to be free from any form of mass manipulations (mass conditioning serving a specific mainstream agenda).

I never try to focus on 1 person ... everything I do is to have my own ground to deal with bullies of all types being an inspiration to 1000s ... I see everything as symbolic.

Some ACT a certain way that is like a template people carry with them all their life until they die. That template (mind-set) LOVES to put others in boxes using labels and such to AVOID real honest exchange of new insights & new ideas. They assume you can only have a real debate if you have the "correct" label, status, frame-work. Thus they keep their (false) assumptions UNCHALLENGED. It is all Psychology.

When you see through their mind-games & self-deluding tactics you can only pity them. All is symbolic. Just show patience and keep your ground by having EQUAL right to be heard ... not because of 1 person but all who consider to broaden their own horizon of possibilities. This quality can be practiced KNOWING you are communicating with so much more than just 1 or 2 programmed status quo parrots.

cheers.
John Kuhles September 7, 2020

Main (often ignored, or overlooked) insight between 3G, 4G & 5G = with 3G & 4G Cell Towers you have a choice to move/live elsewhere AWAY form the Cancer Cluster Zones... With 5G (y)our children and their children will be FORCED to be in it 24/7 (much closer proximity) so do your pets, birds, bees, plants, trees and last but not least: yourself.

What about that folks?
That seems to be the missing link between 5G and vaccines.

Scientists Fit 1,000,000 Walking Nanobots Into Hypodermic Needle That Function Wireless, Latest

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=BP5A6LJli9k

Jules renard said "It doesn't pay to say too much when you are mad enough to choke. For the word that stings the deepest is the word that is never spoke, Let the other fellow wrangle till the storm has blown away, then he'll do a heap of thinking about the things you didn't say."

Do you know WHY most (if not all) authoritarians do not like to be challenged? ... Because they assume their "word" is (good) enough ... And anyone not (blindly) accepting their "word" will be seen as an "attack" of their status. From their "logic/perspectives" anyone doubting or challenging or questioning their closely guarded narrative is seen (interpreted) as an "accusation" being a "liar". That is why they OVERREACT by doing things they accuse others of doing ;)

"Mental Defense Reflex Mechanism"

I have this happen so many times in countless controversial topics/heated discussions ... I get immune to it ... It does not bother me anymore.

cheers,
John

It seems to me that separate from all the possible power plays around Sars-2 virus, we don't know everything about this virus and how it may affect alot of people long term. No matter what else is possibly happenning, real people are getting sick and suffering, and from what Chris Martenson reported and the latest study Frank V posted, we are looking at complex imbalances to numerous body functions. Any new finds on how and why this is happening can only help.

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Posted by Harmony

It seems to me that separate from all the possible power plays around Sars-2 virus, we don't know everything about this virus and how it may affect alot of people long term. No matter what else is possibly happenning, real people are getting sick and suffering, and from what Chris Martenson reported and the latest study Frank V posted, we are looking at complex imbalances to numerous body functions. Any new finds on how and why this is happening can only help.

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Yes agreed
Flu also has long term effects, the symptoms are identical in most cases.

This video is relatively new science and throws a different light on the cause of virus.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=V1Im7jsW9_Y

Should we move this thread into the 5G section? :P (Seems that we should!)

Quote:

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Posted by greybeard

Quote:

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Posted by Harmony

It seems to me that separate from all the possible power plays around Sars-2 virus, we don't know everything about this virus and how it may affect alot of people long term. No matter what else is possibly happenning, real people are getting sick and suffering, and from what Chris Martenson reported and the latest study Frank V posted, we are looking at complex imbalances to numerous body functions. Any new finds on how and why this is happening can only help.

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Yes agreed
Flu also has long term effects, the symptoms are identical in most cases.

This video is relatively new science and throws a different light on the cause of virus.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=V1Im7jsW9_Y

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I'm grateful for alot of things you post Chris. It's good you have your opinion. It's not a competition and it's ok for other's to have an opinion formed on their experiences.
What other's have to say could also be important. Anyone might not have all the dots to connect. It's possible there are unknowns to this virus, and might not be anything like an ordinary flu.

I'm getting the impression there are people frustrated hearing "it's like an ordinary flu" or "only old immune compromised people get it" etc. That doesn't seem to be the case and people with health issues are no less important. I'm not saying you mean that either, your a good man. It might be important for anyone to leave room for any new information coming forward that could be very important.

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Posted by Bill Ryan

Should we move this thread into the 5G section? :P (Seems that we should!)

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I do not think so.....Scientific Materialism is much larger a subject than any particular technology. Censorship of challenges to various orthodoxies is a huge threat to civilization. As John stated, the global technocratic machine seeks to inundate us with unavoidable chemicals (ex. Glyphosate), frequencies like 5G, and lifestyles dependent on smart devices. The political ownership by the Corporatocracy, because of funding, means laws are made (and mandates) that cannot be challenged by "the 99%" who are affected. Also Science that is grounded in the larger picture of what human nature (and Nature) NEEDS must include the intangible variables like meaning of life and question WHY we would want to agree to suggested "improvements".

The extreme suppression of dissent has been aided by a global information superhighway which now runs through all our institutions. Only certain "vehicles" allowed there. Checkpoints and Gatekeepers easily manage what is allowed to be true as there is no alternative. It is the new book burning.

Supposedly science is objective but we have seen IT IS NOT! It is a cult (the cult of Scientific Materialism). If science is not REAL science and instead a rubber stamp approval of what the "Priests of the Cult" seek to install (therefore make the TRUTH to justify it), we have what we see happening NOW in the Military/Medical Industrial Vice hold.

I think we are being quarantined in Hotel California because of Scientific Materialism. There are promises of salvation if you just wait there. You can have a really good time with lots of gadgets there. You can believe you are free. You can believe you are living well. "You can check in anytime you want but YOU CAN NEVER LEAVE."

Back in the old days when censorship was just beginning to be "in our face":

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‘TED’ Sparks Paradigm War
4/19/2013Internet video site TED has removed presentations by biologist Rupert Sheldrake and historian Graham Hancock because—according to TED—their ideas are “pseudoscience.”

What does this mean?

Well, simply, it means that one of the leading Internet sites for sharing intellectual ideas has shut out views that challenge deep-rooted dogmas of modern science—a decidedly unscientific act. It means the folks at TED buy into mainstream scientific materialism as the last word on what is “real” or “ideas worth spreading.”

So, what happened?

The TED organizers have decided not to allow any TED or TEDx Talk that questions scientific dogma about the nature of mind or consciousness. The standard scientific story is that “obviously” mind is produced by the brain, and that all aspects of consciousness can be reduced to electrochemical events between neurons. Anyone who dares to suggest otherwise is obviously “woo-woo,” a “fraud,” a “pseudoscientist.”

Of course, nothing of the sort is “obvious” at all. No-one—no scientist, no philosopher, no self-appointed guardian of media “truth”—can even begin to explain how purely physical brain events could ever “squirt out” subjective experiences. In different ways, Sheldrake’s and Hancock’s talks explored the idea and presented evidence that consciousness exists beyond the brain. The technical term for this is “nonlocal consciousness.”

In the “Century of the Brain,” apparently the only acceptable way to talk about consciousness or mind is in the language of cognitive science or neuroscience. The mere whiff of any alternative needs to be suppressed.

WHAT IS ‘TED’ AFRAID OF?

I’ve been tracking the TED “paradigm wars” with growing interest. And I would like to support the chorus of voices challenging TED and the dominant materialist paradigm.

As a philosopher, it is frustrating to have to keep defending non-reductionist studies of consciousness. But it seems that no matter what anyone says (or how we say it) dogmatists such as the administrators at TED and mainstream materialist scientists and philosophers (Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett are prime examples) will not open up or change their minds. They simply refuse to even discuss alternative possibilities. Like many of us, they have so much vested in their positions—careers, academic reputations, funding, mortgages to pay, etc. . .). It takes courage (or a major shock to the system) for people to change their fundamental beliefs.

This is less a scientific than a metaphysical issue. As long as science clings to methods rooted in sensory empiricism (the idea that only what can be detected and measured by the senses counts as “real”), we will never have a science of consciousness. Neither neuroscience nor cognitive science study consciousness per se. As I and others have pointed out, studying the neural correlates of consciousness is not at all the same as studying consciousness.

Part of the problem is that few scientists today are sufficiently familiar with either the history or philosophy of science, and therefore lack the perspective needed to question their fundamental metaphysical assumptions.

“Paradigm wars” are, essentially, “metaphysical wars”—conflicts between fundamental assumptions about the nature of reality. Most people (including most scientists) are not even clear about what their own basic metaphysical assumptions are; and few seem equipped to question their metaphysical beliefs, even if aware of them.

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Bill removed a post based on "noise".

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Posted by indigopete

We are at a time in human history when "science" has never been in greater need of being cross-examined, questioned and having its assertions challenged where its consumers (us !) find they do not square. In that regard, people asserting "I am a scientist, I understand where you do not" over concerning issues should be attributed a similar level of trust as insurance salesmen IMO.

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This was a very helpful post and dispassionate and hits the nail IMO.

Why are we beating a "drum" and making noise? Is it possible because we really CARE?

Jo Rogan interviewed a vaccine advocate/scientist last year Peter Hotez. This scientist when asked "What is in vaccines" replied "saline and some antigen". OF COURSE hearing that, a person trusting SCIENCE would say... that sounds like a wonderfully simple and helpful thing... what's all the fuss with thoseLuddite Types who would stop people form vaccinating?

If there were no people "beating drums" about the LOONNNGGG list of other ingredients, complacent consumers never find out... MOST vaccine skeptics are former proponents whose lives were turned into nightmares by vaccination.

I know that it is inconvenient to the paymasters to have loud drums beating. They are outlawing them. I never thought that this forum was "like that". Now Bill openly admits he prefers we stop making noise. I have been actually thinking maybe I would quit making noise. Maybe it is now past the expiration date for contributions that try to make some UNcommon sense.

There is quite a lot of complimentary posts on the thread.
Crash and burn thread --definately not.
Any posts are appreciated by me.

Mine can be misinterpreted.

I have never denied that people are greatly affected by this virus.
Where there is doubt, my doubt, is to what it is.
There is no test that can differentiate between the Virus and Flu which is very deadly, it kills millions.
If I am incorrect please correct.

On the whole what I post is experts on video. Dr.s Professors, immunologists.
Not my opinion -- though I do have one

Im not in denial that something deadly is in our midst.

I would love to be wrong in everything I have posted and to find that all of the Governments of the world are continuing to take measures to save us from the most deadly virus since the Spanish Flu.

Yes I bang a drum -- focused with little change since this started -- why - because I have grandchildren who will be affected in a multitude of ways for years to come. I dont claim to be right.
Thanks to Paula.
Chris

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Posted by Bill Ryan

With that dedicated resource available, what's not okay is to spam other threads with 5G-related polemic when the thread creator has tried to present information of their own that lies in a different field.

What happened on Frank's thread A Supercomputer Analyzed Covid-19, and an Interesting New Theory Has Emerged was that several people immediately derailed the entire thing by injecting more 5G opinions.

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Lately whenever I click on the new posts list, a vast chunk of it is discussions on Covid, 5G and Qanon. For that reason, I would say it's pretty silly that people cry "censorship!" when being restricted in posting conspiracist reactions in a single thread that somewhat differs from the several dozen others where such reactions can be endlessly explored. It's similar to how people reacted when a small change was made to the main Qanon thread showing up on public view.

In terms of scientific materialism, I agree that it is responsible for many of the current ills of the world, and we should be careful not to treat current research findings as a final authority. On the flip side, it also goes along with what Wade has often pointed out in his free energy thread, namely, that conspiracist knee-jerk reactions are mostly a waste of time and energy, and that scientific literacy is quite low. You can't overcome the flaws of something without first understanding how it works.

I tend to post for guests -- repetition is good-- the cabal know that.
Members have every right to comment on any of my posts --I dont claim that Ive got it right.

Its a bit like one President when asked to prove his competence with questions and could not answer one.
He said "I dont know the answer to that but I know some one who does"

Im attempting to bring some humour to this thread smiling -- I dont mind being silly.
Chris

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Posted by greybeard

Yes I bang a drum -- focused with little change since this started -- why - because I have grandchildren who will be affected in a multitude of ways for years to come. I dont claim to be right.
Thanks to Paula.
Chris

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You care Chris. You have a love for those who will come later.
"The great work is about the future of humanity".

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=jIPKfgZyw3k

Please don't do that. The issues I raised in the opening post have to do with much more than just 5G.
I think that would be relegating it to a space where it would get much less attention than all those issues deserve, and though 5G is certainly an important one, it's by no means the only important one.

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Posted by Bill Ryan

Should we move this thread into the 5G section? :P (Seems that we should!)

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I happen to have both extremes among my loved ones. My son being on the "science can do no wrong" side, being a NYC "mover and shaker" (haha) while my husband leans to the "if it's woo woo, it's the truth" side. Both get down on me regularly for being what they call "wishy-washy" and not committing fully to either. I just don't live in a black/white paradigm, and never did for some reason, although I can totally place myself in their shoes and feel their frustrations. But I do have trouble with their inability to shake their kaleidoscopes even a little bit!

Personally, I simply like to explore and understand and to glean ever more knowledge from the latest bits of info from both sides. If they pique my interest, I generally dive much deeper into the origination of the info bit, and try this new info on for size. (kind of like I do with beliefs). I very much think in the realm of "what if?"

With Frank V's thread in question, I was instantly drawn to wanting to understand what this newest info was, and looked forward to the discussion. I had already run across this topic elsewhere. I admit to being disappointed when yes, it was (in my eyes) preempted by the same old topics that we have already explored here on PA, so I more or less skimmed those posts hoping to get back on topic. I do hope to never stop learning and exploring, and PA has been the best and highest quality of forum sharing that I have encountered to date.
so.....
Attachment 44254

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Posted by onawah

Please don't do that. The issues I raised in the opening post have to do with much more than just 5G.
I think that would be relegating it to a space where it would get much less attention than all those issues deserve, and though 5G is certainly an important one, it's by no means the only important one.

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Posted by Bill Ryan

Should we move this thread into the 5G section? :P (Seems that we should!)

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Seconded. I am busy writing a post that has absolutely nothing to do with 5G, about which I know next to nothing, but which might belong here.


This is hugely relevant to the entire Avalon enterprise. If some of the forum's most gifted minds cannot work together, then Houston we definitely have a problem.