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What Are You Going To Do about It?
Although I see no reason why it should be, this thread may wind up being one of the all time controversials. Yes, I'm still going to try and gain some sort of answer on this. If it's seen as divisive, then so be it.
The premise is simple. In this current hyper politicized climate, where not even day to day issues affecting the average US citizen really matter any more, it appears both sides feel fully justified in the idea of not accepting the final presidential election results, if the opposing candidate wins. I would ask Biden supporters the same question, but there are none here, so that's a non starter.
Sooooooo, I'll ask the Trump supporters in lieu of asking no one at all. It looks pretty darn clear by this point, that general sentiment is the only way the pres can lose, is by widespread voter fraud.
Bottom line: if a loss does occur, thus creating certainty that truth, justice, and the American way have been blatantly subverted, what, if anything, are you going to do about it?
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Re: What Are You Going To Do about It?
Quote:
Posted by
Gracy May
it appears both sides feel fully justified in the idea of not accepting the final presidential election results, if the opposing candidate wins.
Why do you feel that way? this seems to be not really a heavily pushed narrative (I think both sides see how it could backfire). Granted I don't watch more than clips of MSM, but it seems like this hasn't even been in the narrative lately....
Quote:
Posted by
Gracy May
Bottom line: if a loss does occur, thus creating certainty that truth, justice, and the American way have been blatantly subverted, what, if anything, are you going to do about it?
drink beer and make memes (ok, i'll probably do that regardless), I still agree with me from earlier today:
I don't foresee a situation like this happening (unrest due to election results), this is just more fear porn pushed by MSM (again, one side of the duality coin, from what I can see) to try and force an outcome.
NYPD prepares for trumps win (well, if you read between the lines...)
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Re: What Are You Going To Do about It?
Quote:
Posted by
Gracy May
The premise is simple. In this current hyper politicized climate, where not even day to day issues affecting the average US citizen really matter any more, it appears both sides...
I am not so sure that the environment is hyper-politicized, the media has certainly drawn the boundaries along those lines and people seem to accept that premise but as a Trump supporter, I see it more along the lines of accepting or rejecting corruption in society. Yes, it has been corrupt for a long time but it is now much more apparent to the average citizen regardless of their political affiliation.
Democrats and Republicans are both responsible for endless wars, bad trade deals, a treaty that provides a path to nuclear weapons in the middle east, illegal immigration, racial injustices, abortion, climate alliances that stand no chance of success and a host of other problems mostly caused by these same politicians.
So I see it as millions that are rejecting politics, they are saying no more Bush's, Obama's, Clinton's, Biden's and no more business as usual. On the other hand, there are those that are resistant to change and millions that have bought into the mainstream media negative narrative about Trump. So their answer is to put a 47-year career politician back into office that has been at the epicentre of all the things that most Americans have come to despise. See my post on Glen's thread..Why Hasn't More Been Done?
Quote:
Posted by
Gracy May
Sooooooo, I'll ask the Trump supporters in lieu of asking no one at all. It looks pretty darn clear by this point, that general sentiment is the only way the pres can lose, is by widespread voter fraud.
Bottom line: if a loss does occur, thus creating certainty that truth, justice, and the American way have been blatantly subverted, what, if anything, are you going to do about it?
The answer to your question is nothing at all because for many Trump supporters it is not about politics it is about much more. The vast majority of Trump supporters will search for another way to bring about better lives for all Americans regardless of ethnicity, skin color, age, sexual preference or economic status. The majority of Trump supporters are not about rioting, looting or crime, just the opposite. Of course there will be those on the fringe that may go off the rails but that is not what a Trump supporter is all about, regardless of what the media tells you.
That said if the election has millions of provable fraudulent votes counted and the election is assigned to either candidate I think we can expect some serious civil unrest.
This question should really be put to Biden supporters who truly believe that they are in a political fight of their lives. They seem to honestly believe that Trump and his supporters are racist and that the country will be destroyed if he continues in office. Unfortunately, I think that the hate from the mainstream media is being embraced by those on the political left and they are much more likely to erupt in violence should Trump win the election even if all votes are legitimate.
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Re: What Are You Going To Do about It?
Looks like stalemate. Dems blaming Russia and Republicans blaming Iran. Clever. Carry on.
Quote:
Russia and Iran have interfered with the US election, FBI says
By CNN 22 OCT, 2020
Director of National Intelligence John Ratcliffe said both Iran and Russia have obtained US voter registration information in an effort to interfere in the election, including Iran posing as the far-right group Proud Boys to send intimidating emails to voters.
"This data can be used by foreign actors to attempt to communicate false information to registered voters that they hope will cause confusion, sow chaos and undermine your confidence in American democracy," Ratcliffe said.
Iranians are responsible for a voter intimidation email campaign that was made to look like it came from the Proud Boys and was also spreading disinformation about voter fraud through a video linked in some of the emails.
"We have already seen Iran sending spoof emails designed to intimidate voters, incite social unrest and damage President Trump," Ratcliffe added.
"You may have seen some reporting on this in the last 24 hours, or you may have even been one of the recipients of those emails."
Russia has not taken the same actions, Ratcliffe said, but has obtained some voter information, just as Moscow did in 2016.
Ratcliffe spoke alongside FBI Director Chris Wray at a hastily arranged news conference on Wednesday evening to announce the foreign election interference.
"We are prepared for the possibility of actions by those hostile to democracy," Ratcliffe said.
Along with Russia and China, Iran was named as one of three foreign adversaries seeking to interfere in the 2020 race in an unprecedented statement from the intelligence community's top election security official, Bill Evanina, on August 7.
"We assess that Iran seeks to undermine US democratic institutions, President Trump, and to divide the country in advance of the 2020 elections. Iran's efforts along these lines probably will focus on on-line influence, such as spreading disinformation on social media and recirculating anti-U.S. content," the statement, issued on behalf of the entire intelligence community, said.
FBI Director Christopher Wray testifies before a House Committee on Homeland Security hearing. (AP)
"Tehran's motivation to conduct such activities is, in part, driven by a perception that President Trump's reelection would result in a continuation of US pressure on Iran in an effort to foment regime change," it added.
The same statement said that the US intelligence community assesses "Russia is using a range of measures to primarily denigrate former Vice President Biden and what it sees as an anti-Russia 'establishment.'"
"This is consistent with Moscow's public criticism of him when he was Vice President for his role in the Obama Administration's policies on Ukraine and its support for the anti-Putin opposition inside Russia ... Some Kremlin-linked actors are also seeking to boost President Trump's candidacy on social media and Russian television," it added.
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Re: What Are You Going To Do about It?
[QUOTE=rgray222;1384779]
Quote:
Posted by
Gracy May
Quote:
Posted by
Gracy May
Sooooooo, I'll ask the Trump supporters in lieu of asking no one at all. It looks pretty darn clear by this point, that general sentiment is the only way the pres can lose, is by widespread voter fraud.
Bottom line: if a loss does occur, thus creating certainty that truth, justice, and the American way have been blatantly subverted, what, if anything, are you going to do about it?
The answer to your question is nothing at all
because for many Trump supporters it is not about politics it is about much more. The vast majority of Trump supporters will search for another way to bring about better lives for all Americans regardless of ethnicity, skin color, age, sexual preference or economic status. The majority of Trump supporters are not about rioting, looting or crime, just the opposite. Of course there will be those on the fringe that may go off the rails but that is not what a Trump supporter is all about, regardless of what the media tells you.
That said if the election has millions of provable fraudulent votes counted and the election is assigned to either candidate I think we can expect some serious civil unrest.
:thumbsup:
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Re: What Are You Going To Do about It?
Quote:
Posted by
Gemma13
Looks like stalemate. Dems blaming Russia and Republicans blaming Iran. Clever. Carry on.
since the FBI is basically proven to be "the Dems" (visa vi the HBiden laptop that they sat on since feb) then it's Dems blame russia, and other Dems blame Iran (which,, IS AN ALLY OF RUSSIA, RUSSIA who is china's biggest threat/rival.... see the pattern?)
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Re: What Are You Going To Do about It?
Thanks for the post. For me I will carry on creating my art and music, see the results, read the play and make a game day decision.
If for some strange reason, Pelosi becomes president, I just may march off to DC .
going day by day
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Re: What Are You Going To Do about It?
I have always wondered why, with the obvious deception apparent at every level of government and media, as well as in private industry, people are so sure that our elections have been fair and honest? It seems to me the ability to hack the vote has existed for quite some time. Even as a child, I never thought that the voting process was real or fair, having observed adults mendacity and tendency to lie. Many Avalon members have researched the hidden agendas of elites, the deep, above top secret technologies and activities of the military and government, yet steadfastly cling to the idea of open and honest elections taking place for our President... It seems a fairly large blind spot, in my opinion. It is more likely a power struggle, where the winning faction is allowed to place their representative in office.
If that is the case, I would observe Biden seems to represent a power faction supporting China/Silicon Valley Tech and Trump perhaps a more traditional "Illuminati" type base. Neither group is particularly appealing.
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Re: What Are You Going To Do about It?
What am I going to do about it ?
You're asking to wrong hate target.
https://donaldtrump.watch/
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Re: What Are You Going To Do about It?
*bump*
Good discussion that needs to continue.
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Re: What Are You Going To Do about It?
I drank beer, trump was winning when I went to bed, haha.
DC was boring when I went, I shot some video and left around 5pm, I'll go back friday and see what it's like... haha
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Re: What Are You Going To Do about It?
So, here we are. In line with the theme of this thread, are Steve Bannon's recent comments considered fair game in light of the election results?
Quote:
Second term kicks off with firing Wray, firing Fauci. Now I actually want to go a step farther but I realize the president is a kind-hearted man and a good man,” Bannon said, referring to the FBI director and the country’s top infectious disease expert, respectively.
I’d actually like to go back to the old times of Tudor England, I’d put the heads on pikes, right, I’d put them at the two corners of the White House as a warning to federal bureaucrats,” he continued. “You either get with the program or you’re gone, time to stop playing games.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/dr...al-11605126551
Now I suppose that comment can be viewed a figurative, but is it really, considering the follow on comments from his guest?
Quote:
Well you know what Steve just yesterday, there was the anniversary of two Torries in Philadelphia. These were Quaker businessmen who had cohabitated with the British while they occupied Philadelphia. These people were hung. This is what we used to do to traitors.
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Re: What Are You Going To Do about It?
Quote:
Posted by
Gracy May
So, here we are. In line with the theme of this thread, are Steve Bannon's recent comments considered fair game in light of the election results?
Quote:
Second term kicks off with firing Wray, firing Fauci. Now I actually want to go a step farther but I realize the president is a kind-hearted man and a good man,” Bannon said, referring to the FBI director and the country’s top infectious disease expert, respectively.
I’d actually like to go back to the old times of Tudor England, I’d put the heads on pikes, right, I’d put them at the two corners of the White House as a warning to federal bureaucrats,” he continued. “You either get with the program or you’re gone, time to stop playing games.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/dr...al-11605126551
Now I suppose that comment can be viewed a figurative, but is it really, considering the follow on comments from his guest?
Quote:
Well you know what Steve just yesterday, there was the anniversary of two Torries in Philadelphia. These were Quaker businessmen who had cohabitated with the British while they occupied Philadelphia. These people were hung. This is what we used to do to traitors.
have you looked into the backgrounds of those two individuals? I'd say those comments are very valid.. both are treasonous in their actions and at least one will be convicted of it... if Fauci keeps his (bill gates given) bull**** up, he will go down as well.
BTW, still drinking beer and making meme's.... not at all like you expected eh? strangly peaceful eh?
Just wait till trump's victory is clear (coming with in weeks now).... then you'll see how this thread should have been pointed left, not right; though we've already seen that via the attacks on several trump supporters this weekend ( I was there for a few hours).
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Re: What Are You Going To Do about It?
Quote:
Posted by
Gracy May
So, here we are. In line with the theme of this thread, are Steve Bannon's recent comments considered fair game in light of the election results?
Quote:
Second term kicks off with firing Wray, firing Fauci. Now I actually want to go a step farther but I realize the president is a kind-hearted man and a good man,” Bannon said, referring to the FBI director and the country’s top infectious disease expert, respectively.
I’d actually like to go back to the old times of Tudor England, I’d put the heads on pikes, right, I’d put them at the two corners of the White House as a warning to federal bureaucrats,” he continued. “You either get with the program or you’re gone, time to stop playing games.
Quote:
Posted by
TargeT
have you looked into the backgrounds of those two individuals? I'd say those comments are very valid.. both are treasonous in their actions and at least one will be convicted of it... if Fauci keeps his (bill gates given) bull**** up, he will go down as well.
BTW, still drinking beer and making meme's.... not at all like you expected eh? strangly peaceful eh?
Just wait till trump's victory is clear (coming with in weeks now).... then you'll see how this thread should have been pointed left, not right; though we've already seen that via the attacks on several trump supporters this weekend ( I was there for a few hours).
Well, I never "expected" anything. I do have my concerns however.
Now this thread was never aimed left, or right, it was aimed at those that were so sure Trump would win in a landslide, that the only way to lose would be if the election were stolen. Being that this election is more and more viewed as the final showdown between good and evil, I can envision desperate people doing desperate things if "cheating" brings the devil his final W.
It looks to me people like Steve Bannon are starting to see the handwriting on the wall that the dream is slipping away, because I've never heard him talk in terms of beheadings, and heads on pikes.
I do hope you're correct (and you probably are!) that there will never be any violence from the right, but right now there are still rays of hope, no one will know for sure what might happen until it's officially over with a new President sworn in.
If there were ever to be a GO time, a heads on pikes time, that would be it. When the last shred of hope is officially gone.
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Re: What Are You Going To Do about It?
Quote:
Posted by
Gracy May
Now this thread was never aimed left, or right, it was aimed at those that were so sure Trump would win in a landslide, that the only way to lose would be if the election were stolen. Being that this election is more and more viewed as the final showdown between good and evil, I can envision desperate people doing desperate things if "cheating" brings the devil his final W.
It looks to me people like Steve Bannon are starting to see the handwriting on the wall that the dream is slipping away, because I've never heard him talk in terms of beheadings, and heads on pikes.
I do hope you're correct (and you probably are!) that there will never be any violence from the right, but right now there are still rays of hope, no one will know for sure what might happen until it's officially over with a new President sworn in.
If there were ever to be a GO time, a heads on pikes time, that would be it. When the last shred of hope is officially gone.
It's playing out as we speak. And I think the answer to your question ultimately rests on the degree to which the egregious fraud and disenfranchisement of the people becomes known in a widespread way. Right now there are roughly two echo chambers clamoring for control of the narrative.
But to speak to your concerns, yes, I do believe there is potential for violence, possibly institutionally organized, if those two echo chambers fail to find synthesis...
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Re: What Are You Going To Do about It?
Quote:
Posted by
T Smith
It's playing out as we speak. And I think the answer to your question ultimately rests on the degree to which the egregious fraud and disenfranchisement of the people becomes known in a widespread way. Right now there are roughly two echo chambers clamoring for control of the narrative.
But to speak to your concerns, yes, I do believe there is potential for violence, possibly institutionally organized, if those two echo chambers fail to find synthesis...
The two echo chambers is definitely a problem, when problems can no longer be discussed and resolved in a civil manner, then that opens the door to potential uncivil actions. Especially, if “the other” has been sufficiently dehumanized, that’s when the real trouble can start. The way I see this both echo chambers firmly believe that they are doing final battle with the devil incarnate, thus I’m not liking what I’m seeing.
What does one have to lose, what wouldn’t one do, when they start to see that they are about to lose the final death match against Satan himself? That’s where the desperate people doing desperate things comes into play, when the alternative is that there’s no tomorrow...
Now to the contention of this “egregious voter fraud and disenfranchisement”, I’m just not seeing it. I see a continuous stream of wild claims coming from the administration, and the new go to conservative sources of OAN and News Max, but nothing even close to showing me any direct evidence. I’m seeing these lawsuits getting retracted, thrown out of court, and the states are now beginning the certification process.
I don’t care who wins, I’ve no horse in this race. For me it’s lose/lose either way. From everything I see Joe Biden is the clear victor, even though he underperformed the polls and Trump over performed. He still lost.
I can live with the official final result either way, my concern is with those who can’t live with a certain result. What are they going to do about it when it becomes crystal clear the devil has won and the republic has “fallen”?
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Re: What Are You Going To Do about It?
Quote:
Posted by
Gracy May
Quote:
Posted by
T Smith
It's playing out as we speak. And I think the answer to your question ultimately rests on the degree to which the egregious fraud and disenfranchisement of the people becomes known in a widespread way. Right now there are roughly two echo chambers clamoring for control of the narrative.
But to speak to your concerns, yes, I do believe there is potential for violence, possibly institutionally organized, if those two echo chambers fail to find synthesis...
The two echo chambers is definitely a problem, when problems can no longer be discussed and resolved in a civil manner, then that opens the door to potential uncivil actions. Especially, if “the other” has been sufficiently dehumanized, that’s when the real trouble can start. The way I see this both echo chambers firmly believe that they are doing final battle with the devil incarnate, thus I’m not liking what I’m seeing.
What does one have to lose, what wouldn’t one do, when they start to see that they are about to lose the final death match against Satan himself? That’s where the desperate people doing desperate things comes into play, when the alternative is that there’s no tomorrow...
Now to the contention of this “egregious voter fraud and disenfranchisement”, I’m just not seeing it. I see a continuous stream of wild claims coming from the administration, and the new go to conservative sources of OAN and News Max, but nothing even close to showing me any direct evidence. I’m seeing these lawsuits getting retracted, thrown out of court, and the states are now beginning the certification process.
I don’t care who wins, I’ve no horse in this race. For me it’s lose/lose either way. From everything I see Joe Biden is the clear victor, even though he underperformed the polls and Trump over performed. He still lost.
I can live with the official final result either way, my concern is with those who can’t live with a certain result. What are they going to do about it when it becomes crystal clear the devil has won and the republic has “fallen”?
I do not feel it is clear that Biden won. But I also do not feel there is anyway Trump will come out as winner either. Unfortunately the entire country is going to suffer. Was there election fraud? The only answer is a resounding yes! Will it be proven? Probably not.
It hurts my soul and is a slap in the face to all my family members who have fought and died to keep this country free.
I believe there will be violence as the country becomes more and more divided. A civil war is at hand. What this country will look like will be completely different than what it looks like today. I will hide here in the country and worry for my children and any children they may have. I will hide here and mourn the loss of the United States and when it gets very bad, I will consider using my dual citizenship to move to another country. It all makes me very sad.
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Re: What Are You Going To Do about It?
Quote:
Posted by
Gracy May
Quote:
Posted by
T Smith
It's playing out as we speak. And I think the answer to your question ultimately rests on the degree to which the egregious fraud and disenfranchisement of the people becomes known in a widespread way. Right now there are roughly two echo chambers clamoring for control of the narrative.
But to speak to your concerns, yes, I do believe there is potential for violence, possibly institutionally organized, if those two echo chambers fail to find synthesis...
The two echo chambers is definitely a problem, when problems can no longer be discussed and resolved in a civil manner, then that opens the door to potential uncivil actions. Especially, if “the other” has been sufficiently dehumanized, that’s when the real trouble can start. The way I see this both echo chambers firmly believe that they are doing final battle with the devil incarnate, thus I’m not liking what I’m seeing.
What does one have to lose, what wouldn’t one do, when they start to see that they are about to lose the final death match against Satan himself? That’s where the desperate people doing desperate things comes into play, when the alternative is that there’s no tomorrow...
Now to the contention of this “egregious voter fraud and disenfranchisement”, I’m just not seeing it. I see a continuous stream of wild claims coming from the administration, and the new go to conservative sources of OAN and News Max, but nothing even close to showing me any direct evidence. I’m seeing these lawsuits getting retracted, thrown out of court, and the states are now beginning the certification process.
I don’t care who wins, I’ve no horse in this race. For me it’s lose/lose either way. From everything I see Joe Biden is the clear victor, even though he underperformed the polls and Trump over performed. He still lost.
I can live with the official final result either way, my concern is with those who can’t live with a certain result. What are they going to do about it when it becomes crystal clear the devil has won and the republic has “fallen”?
What I find amusing is this place is the biggest echo chamber. The ideas expressed here are not progressive in fact I would say probably right. Like VERY solidly right. So far right we are taking Rudy Guiliani seriously like he is a serious human who was not involved in the 9-11 attacks.
Every one here thinks trump won the election he clearly lost. This is why you dont get people engaging your forum from the "other side". For the people here, the election WAS stolen beyond a doubt because there is no way our big boy president can lose. What is there to be gained by discussing with people about an election where nothing will change their mind? Literally, is there anything that could be said or some out that would make people here think it was NOT stolen?(Not even the CISA guy?)
It seems you want violence. Why else would you start a thread called "What are you going to DO about it?" that ends with "Well truth justice and apple pie are all smashed under a boot, what are your next moves yall?" Do you see how this comes across as maybe wanting that violence?
Clearly you want action to take place. Now what kind of action potential are we in with an election one side is claiming massive fraud despite multiple people in his own government saying otherwise and then him firing them(CISA Director). Which dont you think it is interesting the Q watermarked crypto ballot BS is completely destroyed by having to fire the dude that would have been in charge of exactly that program?
In the Q mindset, the dastardly "The dems" as our humble home appliance store calls them is stealing the election and the deep state™ is making its moves.
What do you imagine the people in this mindset are going to view as action potentials? What are the 3% going to view as reasonable things to DO? What are the Proud Boys going to feel is the appropriate act?
I am a little shocked Gracy at this post by you. This doesnt feel like a normal one for you who is usually careful. If your concern is really for the people you seem to be riling up, then why not make this post directed at them telling them that violence is not the answer. Like make a whole long post going through their feelings and showing that you empathize with their anger but that maybe getting those BEAR ARMS out of the safe is not the best move for the republic in the long term. Instead we got this. What.
But I jumped over the biggest and juiciest bit here. Talk about de humanizining people and otherizing people while our resident Iconoclast does exactly that to "THE LEFT". FBI doing something you disagree with? Meh they are THE LEFT.
Just saying the "THE LEFT" means you can lump who groups of people and dismiss them. Trump is in a picture with his young children and Epstein? Must be "THE LEFT".
Notice how people on this forum discuss "THE LEFT". I am a rarity here. I am a "the LEFT" as you probably have guessed. But I am not really on this forum for politics. I came here and am still here for the extraordinary things.
I used to really like this forum. I could come and talk about Aliens and learn about exotic things. This place was for sure gonna keep me up to date on disclosure or sighting. Now, go take a look. Most of peoples grey matter is spent on Q LARPING. The United States government stood up a new combatant command called Space Force and it was BARELY discussed here.
THink about how many Humans have left this forums because of the discourse here.
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Re: What Are You Going To Do about It?
Praxis, the radical woke left has dragged things so far left, that those in the middle now appear to be "alt right". Or far right, as you said. So I think your post is built around a fundamental misunderstanding.
But I can only speak for myself. I thought Trump would lose, even though I voted for him. And now, I'm not certain he's actually won. Not certain at all, so I can't be put in that group. Was there voter fraud? It appears that way to me. I'm actually certain about very little, but i am willing to let the process play itself out.
The entire country, as far as i can tell, is an echo chamber for the left..or some version of it. The media, big tech, corporate america, the universities...you name it. Does the left need to possess small, niche forums too? Is it really unfair that a few people on a small chat site resist the current wave of insanity? The "humans" (interesting choice of words there!) that you refer to, that have left the forum - do they require that the entire world conform to their ideas too? Must they colonize our little territory here as well? And if so, is quitting in a huff a noble statement to make if their ideas fail to catch on?
Me, i like playing contrarian, devil's advocate...specially when the numbers are against me. Its such a wonderful opportunity to sharpen one's sword, articulate one's ideas, so forth. It's a fast track to intellectual evolution. So the idea that those with differing opinions would quit is such a foreign idea to me that i cant really understand it. After all, this is just talk! Even though words like "attack" are bandied about here frequently, no one is ever in danger of harm. If they hang in there, the only thing theyre in danger of is growth! And that's a good thing.
I don't know if youre a rarity here, as you say. But out in the real world, you're the status quo. You've won! So ive no idea what you're so worked up about!:) Jesus, i envy you in that sense!
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Re: What Are You Going To Do about It?
Quote:
Posted by
Gracy May
Now to the contention of this “egregious voter fraud and disenfranchisement”, I’m just not seeing it. I see a continuous stream of wild claims coming from the administration, and the new go to conservative sources of OAN and News Max, but nothing even close to showing me any direct evidence. I’m seeing these lawsuits getting retracted, thrown out of court, and the states are now beginning the certification process.
Have you poured through this? I mean, really taken the time to go through it? None of this is evidence? Really?
I'm confused by your thinking here. If none of this is evidence, including evidence of real time vote flipping from the data stream/software program explicitly designed to rig elections, the tally of which was witnessed by millions of people in real time; including a statistical analysis of said data showing millions of vote flips from Trump to Biden, including statistical analysis of a Biden victory at odds equivalent to flipping heads on a coin two thousand times in a row, etc., etc., what constitutes evidence in the echo chamber from which these sort of nonsensical rebuttals bounce? I want to understand. The universe you are embracing defies the very laws of nature.
The fact is, none of the so-called non-evidence people are being gaslighted to believe--and we may choose among hundreds of pieces of non-evidence at random--are never even addressed in that echo chamber. They are not addressed because their rebuttals do not stand to reason and would pop that bubble as sure and quick as a needle to a balloon.
But here is the thing. Regardless of whether you wish to critically examine the narrative you assert constitutes no evidence of election fraud, the MASSIVE degree of discrepancy nonetheless demands a full audit, out in the open and in the daylight, if we are ever going to attain synthesis of these two vastly polarized narratives. In the interests of a non-violent solution, this is the only way. If every vote cast is audited for legitimacy and tallied in accordance to the law, and if Joe Biden emerges as the winner of the election after this process is executed in the light of day, that would constitute a non-violent synthesis of the two so-called echo chambers now currently at odds and would determine who the people rightfully elected POTUS.
One side is demanding this; it would seem the other side has no interest in legitimacy or honesty.
Let's do the audit. We should all be wiling to agree to that. But I fear that would merely show those trapped in cognitive dissonance something they are seemingly unwilling to accept.
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Re: What Are You Going To Do about It?
Quote:
Posted by
Gracy May
Now to the contention of this “egregious voter fraud and disenfranchisement”, I’m just not seeing it. I see a continuous stream of wild claims coming from the administration, and the new go to conservative sources of OAN and News Max, but nothing even close to showing me any direct evidence. I’m seeing these lawsuits getting retracted, thrown out of court, and the states are now beginning the certification process.
Quote:
Posted by
T Smith
Have you poured through
this? I mean, really taken the time to go through it?
None of this is evidence? Really?
I went through a lot of that T Smith, and it's all the same kind of stuff I allude to above, which either Trump lawyers are retracting, or judge after judge is throwing out of court.
I'm not saying there's zero evidence, but evidence to make this anything more than the Hail Mary of all Hail Mary's? Absolutely not, not even close. It's very difficult to show people the 500 pound gorilla in the room that's not really there.
If this smoking gun is so obvious, Giulliani should be able to point to it with ease, and settle the matter forthwith.
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Re: What Are You Going To Do about It?
Quote:
Posted by
Gracy May
either Trump lawyers are retracting, or judge after judge is throwing out of court.
To my understanding trump has mostly been going after 14th amendment claims.. aka "procedural" not fraud.
Do you have examples of "judge after judge throwing something out of court"? or lawyers retracting (trump's team isn't in charge most the cases,, closer to half, but that's besides the point I suppose).
law suits are expensive, better to work from procedure up and we have until the DEC 14th deadline, so plenty of time left.... I expect more legal actions to come and SCOTUS is very possible.
I'd like to think my position is factually based, i have not seen judge after judge throw anything out that wasn't appealed and won, or currently still in appeal.
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Re: What Are You Going To Do about It?
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Posted by
Gracy May
Quote:
Posted by
Gracy May
Now to the contention of this “egregious voter fraud and disenfranchisement”, I’m just not seeing it. I see a continuous stream of wild claims coming from the administration, and the new go to conservative sources of OAN and News Max, but nothing even close to showing me any direct evidence. I’m seeing these lawsuits getting retracted, thrown out of court, and the states are now beginning the certification process.
Quote:
Posted by
T Smith
Have you poured through
this? I mean, really taken the time to go through it?
None of this is evidence? Really?
I went through a lot of that T Smith, and it's all the same kind of stuff I allude to above, which either Trump lawyers are retracting, or judge after judge is throwing out of court.
I'm not saying there's
zero evidence, but evidence to make this anything more than the Hail Mary of all Hail Mary's? Absolutely not, not even close. It's very difficult to show people the 500 pound gorilla in the room that's not really there.
If this smoking gun is so obvious, Giulliani should be able to point to it with ease, and settle the matter forthwith.
Gracy May, I try to stay out of your way, but you are wrong on many levels about this.
That’s all I’m going to say because I will not engage with you in a pointless debate. You’ve made up your mind and I’ve made up mine.
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Re: What Are You Going To Do about It?
Quote:
Posted by
Gracy May
I'm not saying there's zero evidence, but evidence to make this anything more than the Hail Mary of all Hail Mary's? Absolutely not, not even close. It's very difficult to show people the 500 pound gorilla in the room that's not really there.
Just some food for thought, Gracy... this sort of thing doesn't happen unless there is 500 pound gorilla in the room.
This one county alone has enough vote discrepancies to flip the entire state of Michigan red.
The key to your second point is getting access to the scene of the crime. So far the lower courts (largely partisan) have been reluctant to grant access to the room (where we would find real discovery). The process takes time. The motion for the kind of discovery you are alluding to will move up to the USSC. And if they allow access to the room we're not going to find a single 500 pound gorilla in there, but an entire jungle of them.
Just my take... I'll back out now as I respect you see things differently.
It should be interesting, though, to revisit this discussion in a few weeks or so...
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Re: What Are You Going To Do about It?
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Posted by
Satori
Gracy May, I try to stay out of your way, but you are wrong on many levels about this.
That’s all I’m going to say because I will not engage with you in a pointless debate. You’ve made up your mind and I’ve made up mine.
Maybe I am wrong about all this, but thus far I've seen no direct evidence to back up these extraordinary claims. Like the old saying goes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Counselor, like a dutiful juror, my mind is not made up. If the courts in this land acknowledge these supposedly obvious smoking guns all over the place, and if I can see the damning evidence myself to boot, then I will most certainly change my mind. That's what I've done, and even though I don't like him either, practically all the evidence I've seen thus far tells me Joe Biden won this election.
Now correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what the trial judge wants, an impartial juror prepared to make a decision based on the preponderance of the evidence, not a juror who is only looking for evidence to confirm what they have believed all along should be the rightful outcome.
I pretty much stand naked and alone here in my opinions on this matter. So be it, and that's fine. What worries me more and more these days though, is that in real life this may not be the safest place to stand any more, thus the inspiration for this thread. If the boys on horseback wind up riding in asking me "to hell with what the courts say, are you with the president or against him" (I live in deep red rural Kentucky), I'll give them the required lip service to make them happy and move on; if they say "join us or you're one of them", that's when it turns into "Gracy bar the door".
You know the really scary thing? I'm actually seeing the dominos starting to fall that way, just like George W. looking at us and saying "either you're with us, or you're with the terrorists". It's starting to settle into my bones that this thing could easily turn bad, really bad, and that we're being led that way quite intentionally.
I don't want to see that, but I see it anyway.
Quote:
Posted by
T Smith
Just some food for thought, Gracy... this sort of thing doesn't happen unless there is 500 pound gorilla in the room.
This one county alone has enough vote discrepancies to flip the entire state of Michigan red.
The key to your second point is getting access to the scene of the crime. So far the lower courts (largely partisan) have been reluctant to grant access to the room (where we would find real discovery). The process takes time. The motion for the kind of discovery you are alluding to will move up to the USSC. And if they allow access to the room we're not going to find a single 500 pound gorilla in there, but an entire jungle of them.
Just my take... I'll back out now as I respect you see things differently.
It should be interesting, though, to revisit this discussion in a few weeks or so...
Thank you T Smith for always trying to keep our disagreements courteous and respectful. Hopefully it's noticed that I try and do the same.
An AM talk show host I used to listen to all the time (Dennis Prager) used to advise something along the lines of "we never need agree on things, but we always need to show mutual respect".
If we lose that then the talking is over, which leads to bad places.
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Re: What Are You Going To Do about It?
Gracy May said: "Maybe I am wrong about all this, but thus far I've seen no direct evidence to back up these extraordinary claims. Like the old saying goes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Counselor, like a dutiful juror, my mind is not made up. If the courts in this land acknowledge these supposedly obvious smoking guns all over the place, and if I can see the damning evidence myself to boot, then I will most certainly change my mind. That's what I've done, and even though I don't like him either, practically all the evidence I've seen thus far tells me Joe Biden won this election.
Now correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what the trial judge wants, an impartial juror prepared to make a decision based on the preponderance of the evidence, not a juror who is only looking for evidence to confirm what they have believed all along should be the rightful outcome."
A good lawsuit is not tried in the media. That is an exercise in futility and a lawyer can also run afoul of professional and ethical rules that apply to lawyers prohibiting too much being said or done outside a courtroom. Capable and competent lawyers know that. Such lawyers also do not show all their cards until in the courtroom.
The evidence is there, and some of it has been provided in good faith by Trump's legal team to try to counteract the media's false claims that there is no evidence. The media seeks to try the cases in the public forum and rule that the cases should be dismissed. Fortunately our system is not designed or intended to work that way.
You are clearly a bright and capable person. I have little to no doubt that if you were a juror or a judge, and the evidence and arguments of counsel were presented to you in the proper forum, i.e., a courtroom, and if you maintained your objectivity and were truly intent upon seeing that truth prevail and justice be done, which I believe you are, you would come to the conclusion that there is sufficient evidence that the election results are the product of fraud. You would fashion what you deem an appropriate remedy to rectify the fraud and spare the election results from the effects of the fraud.
I have seen enough relevant, competent and admissible evidence from the public filings and other sources to lead me to conclude, not only by clear and convincing evidence, but beyond any reasonable doubt, that massive fraud occurred in the key states that are under scrutiny. And, again, as I have said in other posts, some of the best evidence of fraud is not complicated, and is undisputed. For instance, PA failure to follow the USSC's order to preserve and segregate the mail in ballots that came in after the polls were closed on 11/3/2020. The evidence that has been, and that will be presented in court, is sufficient for a judge, as there are no juries involved in these cases, to rule for Trump. (Which is not to say that they will do so and that he will prevail in the lower courts.) Whether some or all of the presiding judges will rule for Trump is an open question.
No doubt, Trump has a very though roe to hoe. But I do respectfully disagree that this his is an extraordinary claim. And, further, the legal test is not extraordinary evidence. It is at most clear and convincing evidence, which is a lesser standard than beyond a reasonable doubt applied in criminal cases.
Evidence of conspiracy of this magnitude is never easy. When it comes to the really big criminal conspiracies, the co-conspirators rarely spill the beans, confess guilt and identify the co-conspirators. (E., g, JFK, MLK, RFK, OK City bombing, 9/11....) That is one reason why the evidentiary rules and case law interpreting the rules permit circumstantial evidence to prove fraud. The judge is permitted to consider both the direct evidence and the circumstantial evidence and make reasonable inferences from all the evidence. The lawyers are entitled to argue what all the evidence means and convince the judge what he or she should rule.
Also, importantly, experts are involved in these cases. Trump has experts. (Biden may too.) Experts are afforded a great deal of leeway when it comes to their opinion testimony and their conclusions of what the evidence proves. Experts can, among other things, consider any direct evidence, circumstantial evidence, learned treatises, and other relevant documents, and they can consider hearsay when rendering an opinion. They can also bring to bear their own professional experiences on the questions presented. The only limitation on experts is that they be qualified in the area that they are giving an opinion, and that their opinions be relevant and deemed reliable. The judge makes these calls. Judge usually allow a qualified expert's testimony and then give it whatever weight the judge deems appropriate. The judge's decision is subject to review by a higher court. You can be sure that Trump will preserve for review by a higher court all actions by the judges.
All we can do at this time in connection with the legal proceedings is stay tuned. It ain't over til' it's over.
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Re: What Are You Going To Do about It?
Quote:
Posted by
Gracy May
What worries me more and more these days though, is that in real life this may not be the safest place to stand any more, thus the inspiration for this thread. If the boys on horseback wind up riding in asking me "to hell with what the courts say, are you with the president or against him" (I live in deep red rural Kentucky), I'll give them the required lip service to make them happy and move on; if they say "join us or you're one of them", that's when it turns into "Gracy bar the door".
You know the really scary thing? I'm actually seeing the dominos starting to fall that way, just like George W. looking at us and saying "either you're with us, or you're with the terrorists". It's starting to settle into my bones that this thing could easily turn bad, really bad, and that we're being led that way quite intentionally.
I don't want to see that, but I see it anyway.
Sadly, your fears are not unfounded. But I don't see it quite in the same way. If there is line drawn in the sand demarcating the battle for the soul of the nation, be it real or abstract, I do not foresee those who engage in a fight for freedom forcing or enlisting innocents or those who disagree to choose a side. No one will declare you, Gracy May, the enemy for not embracing the cause, save for the other side of this fight employing its vast surveillance apparatus hunting for dissidents to silence and to gather up and to throw into concentration camps for either re-education or liquidation. You can see where my bias lies in how I see this going down. However, if tensions do reach that point where either of our fears play out, people may have no choice but to choose for themselves which uniform to wear... Perhaps this is what is what frightens you most? Which side to choose?
Most of us are not willing to discuss these things in polite society, but the fact is our country is founded on the spirit of resistance. This notion is deeply seeded in our national consciousness. I need only quote the famous words of the 3rd President of our very young Republic:
The people can not be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty (sounds like he was looking directly into a 2020 crystal ball to me)...(W)hat country can preserve it’s (sic) liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s (sic) natural manure. Thomas Jefferson, 1787
Again, it is somewhat taboo to discuss these things but this is exactly the discussion you have have solicited by starting this thread. You don't happen to believe (or are not yet convinced) that Tyrants have stolen the election and have disenfranchised the people, but there are 74 million people or so who profoundly disagree with you, including, in the latest poll, 30% of democrats. My guess is these numbers will continue to go up as the facts continue to come out. The question is, are We the People going to lay down to this coup d'etat of our Republic, our country, our freedoms, our way of life? It is clear to many (millions) that this country is at a crossroads and a global-Imperial force has just crossed the Rubicon.
As I've said elsewhere, the remedy to avoid all of this "scary stuff" is a complete audit of the vote. If there is any goodwill at all--and if this isn't a hostile takeover, as you assert--why not just allow for an audit? Transparency and honesty makes this all go away, regardless who wins the vote. This is not about POTUS Trump or POTUSE Biden. If the perpetrators of the biggest (alledged) crime against the people of the United States in its history were to agree to a complete audit of the vote, you wouldn't need to worry about barring the door against the good ol' boys on horseback.
But, as I and others assert, this is not a partisan dispute under the umbrella of our Constitutional Republic. This is a war on the Constitutional Republic, an invasion, a takedown, or so perceived by a large majority of We the People regardless of its degree of veracity.
If this was not a takedown we would all agree to audit the vote and resolve the issue. But those waging this war won't agree to the audit because they are guilty. Local and State officials will not agree to the audit because they are guilty. The MSM/Alphabet Agencies will not push for or advocate for an audit, because they are co-conspirators and they are guilty. The certifiers of the vote will not agree to the audit because they are guilty. The lower courts will not agree to the audit because they are either co-conspirators and guilty or discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. The very last stopgap, the highest court in the land, may not have the authority or necessary remedy of justice in proportion to the crimes.
In short, the system appears broken, which speaks directly to Thomas Jefferson's famous words above.
I find it infinitely curious that our overlords take no issue auditing us plebs over every minor dispute or allegation of wrongdoing. You can be assured the IRS would demand an audit of the taxi driver's, grocery bagger's, or garbage man's finances who buys a 20-room mansion in the Hamptons, and who has not claimed sufficient income on his tax return to support his lifestyle.
The results of this election--the results our conquerers are forcing us to believe--are equivalent of a part-time grocery bagger earning $10 an hour and using his wages to purchase a 20 million dollar estate. We the People demand an audit of our vote. Period.
If there is no available remedy for this--as we are about to discover--Thomas Jefferson may not only be considered one of our most prominent Founding Fathers, but also an augur.
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Re: What Are You Going To Do about It?
So then, here we are again. Here's a metaphor describing the way I'm seeing this march towards civil war here in the States, a whole lot of things have to line up just right for this thing to go down: I bought my 6 number lotto ticket down at the corner store, and am watching the numbers being drawn. 1st number drawn, hey I got one already. #2, dang, another one. #3, wow, three in a row and I win $6! #4, that's four in a row and I just won $800. This is getting serious!
They're just getting ready to show me #5, and I'm really paying attention now...
Now in real life I'm not wanting a match on #5, but the way the stars are aligning just so, it almost seems preordained by this point, but there's still two more chances to slip onto the tracks of a slightly different timeline at the last minute.
Back to subject at hand. As the stars continue to align, I'm noticing a very apparent trend towards violence may just be the only answer. Like finally being forced to stand up to the school yard bully. With the bully, violence pretty much stops when you haul off and give him a black eye or a fat lip.
What about the kind of violence that might be required to settle matters in this election dispute? Are you looking to possibly think about taking matters into your own hands? If so, what are some options where you think you might make a difference? Join a militia for example? Strength in numbers? But still then, what might the militia decide to do about things? Hmmmmm, what to target... You tell me, whether you act on your own, or with a group.
Or maybe you're more wanting the mass arrest thing, and not actually get involved yourself, just cheer it on. If you're in that camp, I'd like to dig a little deeper, and get an idea of how you might want that to look. Would this be like judges handing out arrest warrants to federal marshals, and the perps go straight to prison to await trial?
Or maybe go the NDAA route, charge them as domestic terrorists, and march them straight through the gates of Gitmo for indefinite detention, or maybe a military when they get around to it? Or maybe something else, these are just two possibilities off the top of my head. Maybe Marshal Law a part of this?
Or maybe this would not be enough of a future deterrence at this point. I'm seeing more and more people talking about public hangings live on the internet, heads on pikes, drawn and quartered and shot at dawn. Might acts like these be required to ensure this never happens again?
So now that this thing is growing legs, and for a lot of people it's looking more and more like David Icke's "Something must be done!", what might be your role in doing something about it? Are you willing to get your own hands dirty (if so how), or would you rather stay in the bleachers (if so what do you want to witness)?
Now someone earlier noted that they think I'm inciting people here. That's not at all what I'm doing! I saw this s##t quite possibly coming a long ways back, and the frustration and anger (or rage?) that would inevitably go along with a loss.
And here we are. This is getting real...
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Re: What Are You Going To Do about It?
wow you can learn so much from old threads... Please dig there's lots to see I just started...
