Enlightenment - A direct, succinct account of what occurs...

This is an account of the direct experience of awakening.

What can be said, or written, of itself cannot reveal the truth.

Words and language are themselves an illusory tool, an aspect of the relative dream, and can only indicate or hint towards the totality, or reality, or that which is.

Upon the moment of awakening not only does the illusion of the relative self or ego vanish like a shadow exposed to light, but all “other” egos, or relative selves, disappear. All separation disappears, and the absolute Self is realized. All is then enlightened and whole, for there never really were separate entities that could become individually enlightened. There then is no relative doer, nor even an absolute doer, for all doing implies separation. Or something to do, or somewhere to go. And not just other humans, but the entire creation is enlightened and whole.

Now nothing can be judged, or observed, or transcended, as there is no separate observer, nor separate objects observed, nor even separate observing.

Here even the concept of pure awareness, the witness, unidentified with that which is observed, has dissolved into the totality. Herein lies the meaning of samsara is nirvana. The slightest separation into observer, observed and observing and samsara appears. When observer, observed and observing is an undifferentiated whole, the Self is self evident, and far more evident, than the illusory ego self.

All that is, then is, as it really is, here descriptions do not apply.

Now, what is missing from the above description of the direct experience of enlightenment?

It is the pronoun, I, for in truth there is no I, either relatively or absolutely. I implies a separation from totality, as the first person singular. Whereas the adjective Self, implies being the same throughout, as the self evident united reality/totality/all that is, and is more appropriate at hinting towards the truth.

You are in reality this Self, all else is illusion.
Relatively, this is the end of suffering. This is the beginning of endless bliss.
Absolutely, all suffering is unreal. Only the blissful Self is real.
This is the eternal Truth.


Edit to add on 2/5/12

Insha’Allah (God willing), a response will be offered to the first comment/question of each poster, in due course.

Due to time restraints and circumstances, subsequent comments and questions may or may not receive a response, preference will be given to authentic enquiries.

The more heartfelt the first question/comment, the more earnest the seeker, the greater the likelihood of deriving benefit.

Your first question/comment should cover that which you consider to be of paramount importance to your own awakening/enlightenment.

With Love/Namaste
tim

PS To clarify the definition of enlightenment, in the context that the term is applied in the title of this thread, an examination of the following links may prove helpful, for those with more than just a casual interest;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlight...28spiritual%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_realization
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daigo_%28Zen%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turiya
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%80tman_%28Hinduism%29]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana..._and_True_Self
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychasm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigpa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzogchen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satori
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhahood#Ten_Epithets
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tath%C4%81gata
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upanishads
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_%28concept%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tathata

Nothing Real Can Be Threatened,
Nothing Unreal Exists!
Therein Lies The Peace Of GOD!!

From A Course In Miracles!

HUGS...........Godiam

Thank you, Tim.

Succint....I like it :)

A simple, uncluttered and uncomplicated description.

Jeanette

Yes yes yes. That was really really good! That's a good solid attempt to explain the unexplainable. I'm sure he was laughing when he wrote it.
Even a minute of that experience changes everything about you.

But it's only not explainable because it's so personal, and so not what you'd think. How do you express how simple and how ordinary reality is? It's ordinary because something is finally real. It's normal to be in joy. Nothing opposes it.
It's normal to be free. There is no such thing as not free. Your Self is an experience of that, not an identity. Your experience of everything is of knowing it. But as soon as you begin to observe and interpret and analyze again it's gone.
So you see you make a choice in how you think, not what you think but 'how'.
And realize that you hadn't made a choice to be 'enlightened' or whatever term you like,
because you were just full of ideas and could never have known.
It's the one single thing that you couldn't have imagined was your hearts only desire, that had never left you.

But here's the thing that messes with the conditioned mind; you're still you, and your outer life might not change in any regard.

So now that you know all about it, is it attractive enough? What would you exchange for that?

This is a picture taken of an event................

http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/t...ja/blsippa.jpg

Endless, nah........

Eternal, well.........

All is well


Jorr

All that can be said is--- thanks for firsthand sharing Tim.
Almost said "by "ME"
The pronoun is becoming redundant.

Chris

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Posted by markpierre

So now that you know all about it, is it attractive enough? What would you exchange for that?

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Ev'rything.

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Posted by meeradas

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Posted by markpierre

So now that you know all about it, is it attractive enough? What would you exchange for that?

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Ev'rything.

---

I believe you.

You know how devastation tends to sort out the value of things? I don't advocate devastation because I don't believe that it's necessary.
But devastation isn't a problem, recovering is a problem. Don't recover.

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Posted by tim

and the absolute Self is realized

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Self is Spirit is God


saints and sages are immersed in Spirit

while men are immersed in mind


it is the grace of God that turn men into saints


what most men think of as Self is just self or mind

imaginations


God is in complete control

and there is nothin we can do about it


mind must go if Self is to be realized

You have to be willing to give it all up only to get it all back in the end...

Samadhi is what breaks us free from so many lies. Even though I had my experiences some decades ago I'll disagree on a couple of points.

Suffering is real while in a human mind and human consciousness, else you would have no compassion when you see someone that is suffering. You care to walk by a child with a bone sticking through the skin and tell him/her that it does not hurt and continue walking on your way?

Also, I may be taking this incorrectly but while in the experience (at least mine), there was not an overpowering love involved....you simply were God (all that is, ever was, and ever will be). You are the most hideous creature that ever existed or will exist, .......plus you are the highest saint. To take only the love portion of an experience means you fail to see the contrasting parts as well. God is not only good, but it is evil as well.

Rich

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Posted by Oouthere

To take only the love portion of an experience means you fail to see the contrasting parts as well. God is not only good, but it is evil as well.

Rich

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So how do you separate love from the rest of totality, so that you can take only that portion?

Love IS dispassionate, or you couldn't accept evil. Evil is just a mistaken idea.

"God brings good and evil" is stated in the OT somewhere. But after a lifetime of searching I now believe that we were created by the "gods" mentioned in the OT and Sumerian tablets and other places.

But what created them and all of creation. There's no way of knowing that. If we spoke with the advanced celestial ancestors they might have some idea, or not, as even they can not know endless space and time. imo.

There is evil in existence and may be a creation of our consciousness or just inevitable which is easy to see. Our concern is to end it to the extent that we can, or at least give it our best shot.

P.S. Or maybe nothing was created and everything came about and comes about through an always-was force that just set off reproduction and cycles in everything. And one somewhat intelligent group set itself up as being superior to other groups and so it goes on with life teeming is unending space.

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Posted by East Sun

"God brings good and evil" is stated in the OT somewhere. But after a lifetime of searching I now believe that we were created by the "gods" mentioned in the OT and Sumerian tablets and other places.

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God of the OT used both the Assyrians and later the Babylonians to humble His people

so the lesson is that when men choose to forget God and follow their own minds

then men will descend into unrighteousness

which is not at all pleasin to God


the gods of old are fallen finite spirits

and they made some hybrids with humans


and it is possible that the PTB are hybrids

in league with their fathers the fallen spirits


but we are not all hybrids

most are human

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Posted by RedeZra

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Posted by East Sun

"God brings good and evil" is stated in the OT somewhere. But after a lifetime of searching I now believe that we were created by the "gods" mentioned in the OT and Sumerian tablets and other places.

---

God of the OT used both the Assyrians and later the Babylonians to humble His people

so the lesson is that when men choose to forget God and follow their own minds

then men will descend into unrighteousness

which is not at all pleasin to God


the gods of old are fallen finite spirits

and they made some hybrids with humans


and it is possible that the PTB are hybrids

in league with their fathers the fallen spirits


but we are not all hybrids

most are human

---

You can personify it and call it God if you like. But in that particular example you can also call it cause and effect or karma. Nothing real that was ever seemingly 'fallen' has ever been in anything other than a state of return.

Hiya Mark,

If you separate love from the rest of totality....it is simply love and not God as a whole (or not as God is everything that is and is not). I don't believe love is dispassionate, imo it is the highest attribute of God. And even if evil is a mistaken idea it is also part of god but in that context....everything is God.

Rich

Any members here who consider themselves to be enlightened?

Enlightenment is fully appreciating the fact that there is no such thing as enlightenment.

No human has ever been enlightened, nor are we here to "get enlightened".

We're here to learn how to do the right thing (imho).

:yo:

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Posted by markpierre

You can personify it and call it God if you like. But in that particular example you can also call it cause and effect or karma. Nothing real that was ever seemingly 'fallen' has ever been in anything other than a state of return.

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i'm sure there is intelligence behind karma dispensation


i view God as the Almighty Spirit

imperial impartial but not unpersonal


fallen spirits and demons are as real as the angels and us

they fell as low as they were heigh in the spiritual hierarchy


they knew God and still they chose to rebel

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Posted by RedeZra

fallen spirits and demons are as real as the angels and us

they fell as low as they were high in the spiritual hierarchy

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Hierarchical power structures, also known as pyramid schemes, are set up so that all of the wealth and resources flow to the few at the top, while those at the bottom struggle and compete for the scarcity which is implicit in such a design. Also implicit in this design, is that those who are competing with their brethren need to adopt the mandates of those at the top of the pyramid, and surrender their will and power to them.

To say that the spiritual realms are set up hierarchically, is derived from the same elite power mongers who wrote such a patriarchal pyramid into their instruction book, the bible, at the Roman Elite Council of Nicaea, and designed it to propagate their hierarchical power pyramid, which has nothing to do with spirituality, enlightenment, or unity with the divine in all things.

Fallen angels and spirits means that these souls fell from the top of the power pyramid and needed to subjugate themselves to those at the top in order to redeem their place in the hierarchy? I think not. BOTH polarities of light and dark, Yin and Yang, positive and negative, male and female, left and right etc. are part of the universal matrix of all things and to judge such energies as "evil" and separate only serves the patriarchal structure which has spent eon's trying to sell us that the opposite is to be severed from the whole and that the higher dimensions are hierarchical.

That is a lie in my opinion, and I'm not afraid to expose it for what it is

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Posted by gripreaper

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Posted by RedeZra

fallen spirits and demons are as real as the angels and us

they fell as low as they were high in the spiritual hierarchy

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Fallen angels and spirits means that these souls fell from the top of the power pyramid and needed to subjugate themselves to those at the top in order to redeem their place in the hierarchy?

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there is a hierarchy in Heaven and God is at the Top

there is a hierarchy in Hell and the devil is at the top


there is a hierarchy in our world and the devil is at the top

but we don't have to serve him


we got choice

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Posted by RedeZra

there is a hierarchy in Heaven and God is at the Top

there is a hierarchy in Hell and the devil is at the top

there is a hierarchy in our world and the devil is at the top

but we don't have to serve him, we got choice

---

This thread is about Enlightenment, a direct and succinct account of what occurs. The context implicit in this references the ability for each of us to exercise our free will to choose and to go within and access that power. To go within and find the still point and the state of peace and joy, without abrogating our power or adhering to religious dogma. Also implicit in this context, is the lack of divisiveness, separation, and any systems or structures which are designed to subjugate or enslave the individual in belief systems, or the need for outside intervention, either through saviors, blood sacrifices, abrogation of one’s power, or rules and regulations.

Implicit in the religious paradigm is the notion that we are damaged goods, fallen from grace and severed from spirit, in need of redemption which can only be achieved through subjugation to this hierarchical pyramid of yours, an abrogation of one’s personal will and it concert with the patriarchal structure.

You could not even take one breath or one step severed from source, and the Hegelian dialectic of “divide and conquer” has no place in spiritual enlightenment, or the context of this thread. Severing the opposite energies from source falls into this dialectic, and is implicit in hierarchy. I will say it again, there is no hierarchy is spirit. All is one and in unity, without duality or separation, or divisiveness.

You have your own thread called “the Bible” where you can discuss the context of your hierarchical pyramid scheme, and to come in here and try to hijack this thread and change the context of the discussion rubs me the wrong way. Sorry to be so blunt, but this thread is about enlightenment, not about discussing religious dogma couched in the shroud of spirituality.

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Posted by gripreaper

This thread is about Enlightenment

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i'm sorry but you don't get enlightenment

it's a gift from God

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Posted by meeradas

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Posted by markpierre

So now that you know all about it, is it attractive enough? What would you exchange for that?

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Ev'rything.

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This reminds me of a story from Christ about a man who sells everything in order to buy this property where he found the treasure...
This is our true treasure and that`s what was meant when spoken about building your treasure in heaven...

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Posted by Oouthere

Hiya Mark,

If you separate love from the rest of totality....it is simply love and not God as a whole (or not as God is everything that is and is not). I don't believe love is dispassionate, imo it is the highest attribute of God. And even if evil is a mistaken idea it is also part of god but in that context....everything is God.

Rich

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The point is you can't separate it. You can't be an observer without disengaging from it. And real love is dispassionate, so is compassion. The experience of it will modify your opinion. But you can't do that willingly until you recognize that 'passion' has an agenda,
though you can experience it and you probably have.
Human love is an emotion. It demands an outcome. That's how you're able to distinguish between desirable and undesirable. Love the 'evil' that plays it's part in the adjustment of mind from time to eternity.
'God' couldn't recognize itself as part evil, that's what dualistic is. That's what we're trying to adjust. You can't adjust it if you won't accept it as a barrier.
Speaking of what we're willing to sacrifice to enter into totality, that's a good example.

I was in 17th century Europe, and apparently was involved in a furious saber duel with an opponent in some sort of endgame in the midst of a larger conflict. The thrusts, slicing, and paring had been going on for a while, and we both had gashes and cuts, and were nearing exhaustion. Still, I was confident of the outcome, and I could see desperation growing in his eyes. Suddenly, I was he, looking at what had just been me! We both paused for a long moment, staring into each other's eyes, with the dawning recognition that neither one of us were what we had presumed, and that there was something beyond comprehension going on here - something like just one being, playing two roles simultaneously!

I had hardly begun to come to terms with this realization when I found myself in some indeterminate time, somewhere in Asia, in the midst of some kind of Tantric sexual ritual. I was seated in a lotus posture, while an incredibly beautiful and serene "goddess" sat astride me, coupling in barely perceptible but excruciatingly pleasurable genital motions which vibrated throughout my entire being, igniting an inner flame which rose from the base up my spine and eventually out through the top of my head, where her complimentary flame melted in mine, and we were engulfed in radiant white light.

This seemed endless, until I opened my eyes and realized that I was the female, looking into the eyes of the male I had been, and I was filled with his/my organ, and I was holding him in the arms of my heart with unbearable love and surrender, and tears were flowing down my cheeks at the beauty of our union.

I was about to cry out in an urgent mounting ecstasy, when suddenly I was in a sedan, and it was 1922 (for some reason I remember that date?), and my companion/guide was telling me to observe the dream-like nature of this existence. I had no argument by this time, and then I was told to notice this thing about death, and immediately we plunged through a railing along the Coastal Highway and calmly watched the beach and rocks several hundred feet below coming up on us as if in slow motion, until we crashed into the base of the cliff, and nothing at all had changed, except that now I was in some sort of prison yard, being circled by a gang of grinning sociopaths.

There was no escape, and soon I was being beaten to a bloody pulp, but curiously felt no pain, and after awhile, I realized I had to get up and go to the bathroom. When I returned to bed, I found myself in an urgent rush to make a 2 PM flight from San Francisco to Boston, but I kept getting interrupted on my way to the airport by an odd collection of characters. When I finally got to the check-in desk, an attendant told me that I had missed my flight, and must attend a 2-hour seminar on being late for flights, followed by a test to make sure I undestood just how irresponsible I had been. When I questioned the fellow on whether he was an actual airline employee, he said "No."

Feeling a bit flustered, I decided to go to the bar and await the next flight out, but when I got there, all the patrons were meditating in a lovely garden-like setting. Strange and beautiful flowers were gently swaying in a breeze from some indeterminate source, and somehow it was communicated to me that all the patrons were Siddhas, and together they were in the process of creating whole galaxies on the causal plane. I was very happy with this turn of events, and stayed there for what seemed like an eternity, but when I got up to make tea, I found myself in my own kitchen, and realized intuitively that I had not won the Mega Millions lottery.

Now I seem to be typing out this post, and my question for the readers of this thread would be: which one of these characters gets enlightened?

Funny thing is...if you sacifice everything then everything is given....lol

Rich

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Posted by Oouthere

Funny thing is...if you sacifice everything then everything is given....lol

Rich

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Exactly!
It takes a moment of absolute trust for you to leap in. Rest is history.

I'm sure he was laughing when he wrote it. - markpierre

Hi Mark,

This was written whilst in a state approaching the Absolute. As nothing separate can be expressed whilst fully absorbed in Reality, just enough of the relative self was engaged to communicate the awakening as clearly as possible, with the least “interference” from the relative mind. Hence it took approx 3 hours to type. To an outside observer, I would have looked like a blissed out monkey at the keyboard, lol.

Thankyou for your excellent comments. Many speak from what they have learned or read, rather than realized. It is clear you speak of that which you have realized.

what most men think of as Self is just self or mind imaginations
mind must go if Self is to be realized - RedeZra

Hi Rez,

Excellent, this happens exactly ultimately, but in the earlier stages, one need only not identify with thoughts. As Being or Awareness moves to the forefront, thoughts diminish spontaneously.

Suffering is real while in a human mind and human consciousness, else you would have no compassion when you see someone that is suffering. You care to walk by a child with a bone sticking through the skin and tell him/her that it does not hurt and continue walking on your way?
Also, I may be taking this incorrectly but while in the experience (at least mine), there was not an overpowering love involved - Oouthere

Hi Oouthere,

Yes, suffering is relatively real while you are dreaming you are “in” a human mind. Absolutely however it is unreal, for you never really were a separate entity. It is like when you have a nightmare. The suffering is very real while you dream, but when you awaken, you see it was just a dream.

Absolute love, which occurs at enlightenment, and which is manifest in the continuing relative expression, ie in my case “tim”, until the complete absorption in the Self (transcendence/ascension to heaven/mahasamadhi/etc), acts in harmony with the totality. It loves all for it is all. So it would “assist” the injured child in the most appropriate way.

But the greatest assistance is to inspire “others” to awaken. Mind is the root of suffering, so why trim the branches (which grow back), when you can cut the root. True healing is spiritual, physical healing is temporary.

Enlightenment is fully appreciating the fact that there is no such thing as enlightenment.
No human has ever been enlightened, nor are we here to "get enlightened".
We're here to learn how to do the right thing (imho). - another bob

Hi Bob,

Your first sentence is true in the absolute sense, your real Self cannot become enlightened, for it is that already, but in a relative sense, we are dealing with “individuals”, who “attain” enlightenment when the illusory ego, a creation of the mind, dissolves.

To mix absolute and relative terminology can be confusing for “those” still caught up in the dream of separate identity. The aim of the OP is to clarify the true state of awakening from direct experience for those earnestly and genuinely seeking it. Much confusion arises in religion/spirituality from teachers whose understanding is based on knowledge instead of realization ie Nicodemus (John Ch 3) Gripreapers excellent comments cover this beautifully.

Absolutely we are not “here” and there is no “right” thing. But yes, relatively there is a right and wrong, hence enlightened teachers counsel those who have yet to awaken to “do unto others as you would have them do unto you” - Yeshua, or for more advanced seekers “those others, they are you” - Siddhartha

Namaste
tim

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Posted by tim

Hi Bob,

Your first sentence is true in the absolute sense, your real Self cannot become enlightened, for it is that already, but in a relative sense, we are dealing with “individuals”, who “attain” enlightenment when the illusory ego, a creation of the mind, dissolves.

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Hiya Tim!

I wasn't just talking about the absolute sense, but it is true even in the relative sense. No human beings have ever attained enlightenment. Even in the Buddhist scriptures, you will find that Sakyamuni Buddha did not awaken here, but on another world in a higher dimension, and what appeared here was more like an avatar in a video game. No foolin'! Those great beings to whom we attribute such attainment actually came in with their lights already on, so to speak. This is not that kind of place -- it's a stage filled with props on which we are performing. That's why all this fuss about enlightenment is so silly, and actually distracting from what we're really about.
Once on the so-called other side, a few notches up in awareness, and this will become self-evident. In fact, the world of which you are now aware is just as unreal as the world in which you dream. You may believe you have some sense of this, but you don't. You can't.
We did not incarnate in this realm to get enlightened, but to have the experience of being human. In the midst of that experience, we need to learn how to behave, and not to go chasing some second-hand concept of enlightenment. Enlightenment is what we already are, but we submit to a kind of amnesia in order for the human experience to seem real. We are not even human beings, but rather, as extensions of Source, we occupy human vehicles in order to acquire certain experiences that are particular to humans, and that Source wishes to enjoy.

I could go into a lot more detail, but maybe that's enough to chew on for now.

:yo:

Well, after reading many words, a little relaxation maybe, enjoy. LOL



https://youtube.com/watch?v=s6VaeFCxta8

https://youtube.com/watch?v=s6VaeFCxta8

All is well


Jorr

I wasn't just talking about the absolute sense, but it is true even in the relative sense. No human beings have ever attained enlightenment. Even in the Buddhist scriptures, you will find that Sakyamuni Buddha did not awaken here, but on another world in a higher dimension, and what appeared here was more like an avatar in a video game. No foolin'! Those great beings to whom we attribute such attainment actually came in with their lights already on, so to speak. - bob

Hi Bob,

From here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha#Enlightenment

According to the early Buddhist texts,[39] after realizing that meditative jhana was the right path to awakening, but that extreme asceticism didn't work, Gautama discovered what Buddhists call the Middle Way[39]—a path of moderation away from the extremes of self-indulgence and self-mortification.[39] In a famous incident, after becoming starved and weakened, he is said to have accepted milk and rice pudding from a village girl named Sujata.[40] Such was his emaciated appearance that she wrongly believed him to be a spirit that had granted her a wish.[40]

Following this incident, Gautama was famously seated under a pipal tree—now known as the Bodhi tree—in Bodh Gaya, India, when he vowed never to arise until he had found the truth.[41] Kaundinya and four other companions, believing that he had abandoned his search and become undisciplined, left. After a reputed 49 days of meditation, at the age of 35, he is said to have attained Enlightenment.[41][42] From that time, Gautama was known to his followers as the Buddha or "Awakened One" ("Buddha" is also sometimes translated as "The Enlightened One"). He is often referred to in Buddhism as Shakyamuni Buddha, or "The Awakened One of the Shakya Clan."

According to Buddhism, at the time of his awakening he realized complete insight into the cause of suffering, and the steps necessary to eliminate it. These discoveries became known as the "Four Noble Truths",[42] which are at the heart of Buddhist teaching. Through mastery of these truths, a state of supreme liberation, or Nirvana, is believed to be possible for any being. The Buddha described Nirvāna as the perfect peace of a mind that's free from ignorance, greed, hatred and other afflictive states,[42] or "defilements" (kilesas). Nirvana is also regarded as the "end of the world", in that no personal identity or boundaries of the mind remain.

Perhaps you could share which scriptures state that Siddhartha did not awaken on this planet. It may be reasonable metaphorically to say he awakened to a higher dimension ie the undifferentiated Self, however your premise that no human being can awaken here is perhaps unhelpful to genuine seekers reading this thread.

If Siddhartha came in with his lights on, as you suggest, where was the need to practice austerities to the degree which he did, reportedly nearly starving himself to death prior to discovering the middle way?

we need to learn how to behave, and not to go chasing some second-hand concept of enlightenment. - bob

All behaviour is relative. Eating a chicken from your point of view might be right, but it is hardly right from the chicken’s point of view.

Indeed, one should not rely on second hand views concerning enlightenment. A view confirmed by Buddha;

Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it. - Kalama Sutta.

Which is why this thread is about a direct account of what has been experienced, not something that was read about, or learned secondhand from a teacher, etc.

Once on the so-called other side, a few notches up in awareness, and this will become self-evident. In fact, the world of which you are now aware is just as unreal as the world in which you dream. You may believe you have some sense of this, but you don't. You can't. - bob

Naturally I respect your right to believe I am mistaken, the only one you can truly confirm is enlightened is yourself.

From the direct experience of awakening it was realized there are no notches or separate levels in absolute Self/Awareness/Being, levels exist in the mind only. At least we agree that the states of waking, sleep and dreaming are transient phenomena, which come and go, as does the ego which appears as the subject within these states. All of these, however, are dependent on the substrate reality of the Self, which is realized upon attaining turiya, and resolved finally in turiyatita.

Q: Are there levels of awareness?
M: There are levels in consciousness, but not in awareness. It is of one block, homogeneous. Its reflection in the mind is love and understanding. There are levels of clarity in understanding and intensity in love, but not in their source. The source is simple and single, but its gifts are infinite. Only do not take the gifts for the source. Realize yourself as the source and not as the river; that is all. - Nisargadatta, I Am That


Now you may argue that turiya and turiyatita are different levels, however this paradox is best experienced rather than understood. This thread is meant to inspire and encourage seekers to practice their chosen path/sadhana, not to engage in philosophical, metaphysical or existential discussion.

Thanks for sharing your perspective, your views are always welcome.

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Posted by tim

This thread is meant to inspire and encourage seekers to practice their chosen path/sadhana, not to engage in philosophical, metaphysical or existential discussion.

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Hiya Tim!

That's exactly why I offered the comments that I did, to suggest that people question the search itself!

As I previously indicated, I've left enough to chew on, and will stand by that.

PS: Just one note on Buddhism, please reference the 3 Kayas -- the Nirmanakaya being the "emanation body" of Shakyamuni Buddha, which appeared to go through a long sadhana, only to demonstrate for the sake of truth the futility of that process of seeking and mental manipulation involved in grasping for that which one already is and has always been.

Does that mean one should just give up the struggle? Well, as Sri Nisargadatta noted,

"There are no conditions to fulfill. There is nothing to be done, nothing to be given up. Just look and remember, whatever you perceive is not you, not yours. It is there in the field of your consciousness, but you are not the field and its contents, nor even the knower of the field. It is your idea that you have to do things that entangle you in the results of your efforts. The motive, the desire, the failure to achieve, the sense of frustration -- all this holds you back. Simply look at whatever happens and know that you are beyond it."

:yo:

Quote:

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Posted by tim

I'm sure he was laughing when he wrote it. - markpierre

Hi Mark,

This was written whilst in a state approaching the Absolute. As nothing separate can be expressed whilst fully absorbed in Reality, just enough of the relative self was engaged to communicate the awakening as clearly as possible, with the least “interference” from the relative mind. Hence it took approx 3 hours to type. To an outside observer, I would have looked like a blissed out monkey at the keyboard, lol.

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So tim, that was your own direct experience. That's really exciting, I'm so glad for you, and glad to have heard it directly from the blissed out monkey himself. None of this third person BS.

I'm impressed that you found the concentration to write it out, three hours is probably doing really well.

Beautifully articulated, thank you.

My experience was spontaneous, and I had no discipline to maintain it. The last 23 years have been continually burning the dross with periods of relief, and using up identity in alternating successes and devastation.

It's probably just as tedious training the mind without the benefit of awareness, and then finally being rewarded for it. You can't know what you're trying to achieve.
If all of time was a preparation for that moment, then I guess it's just a relative thing.

The downside of the former is that once you've discovered that you're in hell, you're truly in hell. You have no choice but to build yourself a ladder and start climbing out of fear. Even if just to distract yourself.
Well, you have a choice of when.

The upside is that it's a hell of a motivator.

Tim made an absolute statement in his opening post.
We can either accept that or otherwise--- I accept it.
Its not really debatable,
If our thinking is based on a false premise then all the knowledge in the world unfortunately is colored by the false premise.
My thoughts and I open to be corrected is that--- the caterpillar, having become the butterfly, is in an entirely different state.
I call that enlightenment.
There is no human-being after the event-- there is just awareness-- even the word awareness does not suffice but its best I can do.
The body and persona carry on as before and that is deceiving.
Karma has a certain momentum.
I believe that we are in the university of life in order to evolve.
When the state of enlightenment has occurred-- this class is over/job done.

Chris

Quote:

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Posted by tim

[COLOR="blue"]
I will attempt to respond to comments as time permits, but would appreciate if the following was taken into consideration. If you could only ask an enlightened being one question what would that be?
Namaste
tim

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LOL. Coffee, or tea?

I have a question to ask an enlightened master. It's entirely selfish, based entirely on my own situation.

How would enlightenment assist me in the daily task of enduring relentless astral sexual and psychic harassment, in which I am deprived of sleep, subject to brainwashing attempts, subtle body manipulation, mood manipulation, etc etc etc.

How does knowing I am living a dream, and that in this dream I am being stalked and mentally tortured..... how does this help me?

How much equanimity is it possible to cultivate?

One false premise is that I am an individual, a body/mind.
That totally colors my world and my thought process.
Its all about "ME"
However!!!
No self-- no problem.
I really shouldn't put my thoughts though on this thread.
Pronouns pronouns.
I wish the "I" would take a vacation, a permanent one.

Chris

Quote:

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Posted by greybeard

One false premise is that I am an individual, a body/mind.
That totally colors my world and my thought process.
Its all about "ME"
However!!!
No self-- no problem.
I really shouldn't put my thoughts though on this thread.
Pronouns pronouns.
I wish the "I" would take a vacation, a permanent one.

Chris

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Hi Chris. So you dont really inhabit your body, on a day to day basis, or your mind? So that if you were in pain or mentally abused you feel you would barely notice?

Quote:

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Posted by greybeard

When the state of enlightenment has occurred-- this class is over/job done.

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Hiya Chris!

We don't need more definitions of enlightenment -- they're a dime a dozen, and people's minds are already overburdened with enough concepts and notions in that regard. What we actualy need are more demonstrations of enlightenment, but those are still pretty rare.

Moreover, even by classical standards, what was described in the OP does equate with real liberation. Rather, it merely represents another fixation of identity in some sort of cosmic Self. Both self and Self need to be recognized as fantasies of interpretation on perception, with no inherent reality. Both fictions need to be penetrated for liberation to begin to dawn, and even that is not enough -- unless it is fully integrated and embodied in the way we act and relate in the world, it remains conceptual and rather impotent.

Over the years, I've seen many who have had some sort of "spiritual" experience, and immediately turn around and claim enlightenment. If they're fortunate, they'll find a real master with whom they can test their realization. Invariably, a few minutes face to face with such a master will serve to disabuse them of their new self-image, saving them years of wandering around in delusion. Those not so fortunate will end up believing their own propaganda, since the mind can easily co-opt even profound realizations, reveling in how enlightened it now is, and how it has transcended itself. Those are usually the hardest to reach, since they're convinced that their job is over.