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Other than 9/11, I'd think the JFK assassination would be the grand daddy of conspiracy theories. There's an entire cottage industry out there for it, yet no sub forum here at Avalon??
I watched this video last night....and rate it one of the better ones of late.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=-NlJQJUUqR4
Dave - Toronto
The Magical Mystery Tour Beattles video used to be on You Tube but is no longer. I had hoped to provide a link to it. In that video there is a segment where the Fab 4 don magician's robes, pointy hats and wands and goof around. The reason I wanted to link that, is because it symbolizes what's happening. The magicians are tricking people into believing things that aren't true. If you really want to know what happened in the JFK assassination, you're going to have to do some homework.
1. Hume's testimony to the Warren Commission.http://aarclibrary.org/publib/contents/wc/contents_wh2.htm[/URL]http://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh2/html/WC_Vol2_0178a.htm
2. Parkland doctors testimonies.
Dr. Carricohttp://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc...Vol6_0006a.htm
Dr.Perryhttp://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc...Vol6_0009a.htm
Dr. Clarkhttp://http://aarclibrary.org/publib...Vol6_0014b.htm
Here's the contents page for Volume 2 of Warren Commission testimony and you can read the rest.http://aarclibrary.org/publib/conten...ntents_wh6.htm
For the Parkland doctors testimony Arlen Specter traveled down to Dallas testimony and took each doctor's testimony individually. Later only Dr. Carrico (first doctor to see JFK and inserted the ET tube) and Dr. Perry (the doctor who performed the tracheotomy) traveled to Washington DC to give their testimony.
First is the fact that the Parkland doctors inserted chest tubes bilaterally and connected to underwater drainage. This meant both tubes had to have been inserted into the chest.
The doctors also did 3 cutdowns for IVs. One in each ankle and one in left antecubital space (inside elbow). The cut down that was done by an oral surgeon in an ankle infiltrated. Infiltrated means the fluid started going into the tissue and swelled. Another cutdown was not done because the other 2 IVs were flowing so well. JFK received 2 units O negative blood and IV fluid.
The body that was autopsied by Humes did not have holes where tubes were inserted into the body. The body he autopsied only had superficial lacerations and no swollen areas from an IV infiltration.
The body Hume's autopsied only had superficial wounds where chest tubes and IVs would have been inserted. The body he autopsied did not have the holes or medical wounds that the real JFK had received.
The constantly repeated story of Humes burning his notes is just a distraction. It distracts from the fact that Humes, Boswell, Finck and John Stringer (photographer) all saw a bullet hole 2.5 cm from midline at the occipital protuberance. The problem with this hole is that it would have been impossible in the real JFK body. If the bullet had hit there it would have gone through his jaw. It's not me saying this. It's the Clark panel and the HSCA saying a hole at the occipital protuberance 2.5cm right of midline was not possible, but the Clark Panel nor the HSCA ever thought the body was not JFK. Humes, Boswell, Finck and Stringer never waivered from their position that the body they autopsied had a hole at the occipital protuberance, 2.5 cm right of midline. The Clark Panel and HSCA of course never got to look at the body. They only had autopsy photos and x-rays. The story about the pictures and x-rays is a whole other topic.
When Dr. Hume's testified before the Warren Commission, he wasn't allowed to look at the autopsy photos, only 2 pictures from the Zapruder film were allowed to be seen. You'll read Dr. Hume's very detailed description of the brain. Dr. Hume was no dummy
This is a link to Dr. Hume's testimony to the HSCAhttps://www.maryferrell.org/pages/HS...nterviews.html
There is a recording and transcript.
What impressed me was how supportive Dr. Hume's was to all his staff. He spoke always supportive of everyone. The critics have taken advantage of him. If the critics would simply look at what he did find, they would find proof the body he autopsied was not JFK's.
If some of these links don't work google AARC Warren Commission testimony.
I'm no computer geek.
We know JFK was killed by the Elite, Cabal, Illuminati, KM (Khazarian Mafia)... whatever name you want to use, all those are the same subhumans entities that have been controlling the world for many centuries. The Bush family is only one of some bloodlines involved.
The definitive video to watch is the 9 part series "The Men Who Killed Kennedy". Each part is roughly one hour long. If you don't have that kind of time, do watch parts 7, 8 and 9. A&E broadcast the first 7 episodes and then the elites stepped forward and prevented the airing of parts 8 and 9. Part 8 is the best one with part 9 the conclusion. Best video out there. A British company made it. The most damning evidence was the get together at Clint Murchison's (rich Dallas oil man) home the night before the murder. The British team tracked down the caterers and servers that worked the party and interviewed them. Quite a gathering.
Also let us remember that JFK was hit by 3 bullets from 3 different angles. Gov. Connally was hit by a fourth bullet from yet another different angle. A pedestrian was struck by a piece of granite from a bullet that hit a curb section, which broke off a piece that ricochted off his chin drawing blood. That's 5 shots accounted for.
I second the idea for a JFK sub forum.
How do you know that JFK was hit by 3 different bullets from 3 different angles?
The Men Who Killed Kennedy is a fantastic series (especially the banned final 3 episodes).
As for the number of shooters and bullets fired, I think there were many (certainly more than 3 bullets). I think Kennedy was being hunted.
Dave - Toronto
there was a good video on YouTube for a while. Bush Link to Kennedy Assassination. Gone now. George Bush Sr. was a major player, that is undeniable.
That's what the remote viewers confirmed too... And also J. Edgar Hoover was part of it.
When Nazi Bush soon meets his heavenly maker, may he ask for forgiveness for his sins.
Robert J. Groden has written several books & produced videos extensively about the case & conspiracy, the "elite" tried very hard to shut him down. He was also consultant on the movie, JFK, which reignited public interest in the case.Quote:
Posted by Betty
After DA Jim Garrison passed away, shortly after the movie was released (the primary investigator and consultant to the movie), DA Harry Connick Snr (yep, Dad of the famous singer/composer) took over the case. 4 of the 5 filing cabinets on the case had gone "missing."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_J._GrodenQuote:
Robert J. Groden (born November 22, 1945) is an American author who has written extensively about conspiracy theories regarding the assassination of U.S. President John F. Kennedy. His books include The Killing of a President: The Complete Photographic Record of the JFK Assassination, the Conspiracy, and the Cover-up; The Search for Lee Harvey Oswald: A Comprehensive Photographic Record; and JFK: The Case for Conspiracy (shorter version than his 1975 co-authored book).[1] Groden is a photo-optics technician who served as a photographic consultant for the House Select Committee on Assassinations.[2]
A harsh critic of the Warren Commission, he also testified at the 1975 United States President's Commission on CIA activities within the United States (sometimes referred to as the Rockefeller Commission).
The slowed & enhanced version of the Zapbruder footage below has had the bottom & right hand side cropped (how convenient!) - it's actually clearer before they did this (almost impossible to find that original version - but it features on the documentary, THE KILLING OF AMERICA)
Other threads show irrefutable proof that the public copies of the Zapbruder footage & these enhanced versions have been tampered with.
In 1989, according to the late Milton William (Bill) Cooper, (ex Navy Intelligence and whistleblower, & author of Behold A Pale Horse - 1991), the unedited true version of the Zapbruder footage is kept from public view, and that all of the public versions have been "altered" (including the one below). Cooper swore under oath, that the fatal shot was fired by Kennedy's driver, Agent William Greer (Greer falsified his testimony to the Warren Commision, stating that he looked over his right shoulder after the fatal shot, which even in this video can be seen as untrue.) Cooper's claim has been debunked (but then, hasn't every conspiracy theory? ;))
After making these and other conspiracy claims (including correctly predicting 9/11), Cooper himself was gunned down and killed in his driveway after an "altercation" with police in November, 2001.
https://www.google.co.nz/#q=bill+cooper
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mwy6Q9_cUwc
This is an adapted walkthrough of the Zapbruder footage extracted from Robert J. Groden's book, The Killing of a President:
First shot: Fired from behind and misses, striking the pavement (just before the limo goes behind the sign) but Kennedy reacts: he stops waving to the crowd
2nd & 3rd Shots: which was fired from the front, struck Kennedy in the throat (above), with the most logical point of origin being the grassy knoll. The third shot, fired a split second from behind, strikes Connally through the right armpit and chest (as the car emerges from the sign - Kennedy is grasping his throat).
4th shot: came from behind, striking Kennedy in the back, instantly pushing him downward and forward. (This was the path of the remarkable ‘magic bullet’ which supposedly travelled through Kennedy’s body, exiting his throat and striking Connally).
5th and fatal shot: came from the front, striking Kennedy squarely in the front right temple, causing massive fracturing, and forcing his head and upper torso violently rearward. The projectile exited from the rear of the head, leaving a wound the size of a fist. Also note the relative angle and position of Kennedy’s head at the point of impact (the damage from this shot could not have been caused by the weapon(s) firing the other shots - it took almost half of the top of Kennedy'd head off - the other shots left neat bullet holes. As the "other shots" came from two different directions, logically, there had to be at least two other shooters in addition to the fatal shot)
6th Shot: A half second after the fatal shot to Kennedy’s head, a sixth bullet struck Connally in the right wrist, fired from behind. Seconds after this, Jackie Kennedy attempts to exit the car over the rear boot. (Why would she be trying to get out of the car?)
6 shots, at least 3 assassins, all in different locations (and unlikely any of them were Lee Harvey Oswald)
I'm not about to theorise who fired the fatal 5th shot - which came from in front of Kennedy, as all of the various theories on that have been debunked at some stage, which doesn't necessarily make them all untrue (so what's new? ;), ie, suspects include but not limited to: the Driver William Greer, Jackie, the Agent behind the Limo (impossible), Oswald (impossible), Shooter on the Grassy Knoll, etc ).
One shooter in the school book depository (lower than the supposed Oswald perch)....one shooter on/around/inside the Daltex building across the street....one (possibly 2) shooter on the grassy knoll. That's my guess. Could have been more shooters (storm drain, etc). Agreed that none were Oswald. Jackie wasn't trying to exit the car, she was trying to retrieve her husband's brains out the back of the vehicle.
Dave - Toronto
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Hi there, and my apologies for the rather late reply to the question to the mods. :)
Yes, there certainly could be a JFK section, agreed. It's always tricky to decide what new sections to add, though. There could easily be another 20-30, if one brainstorms a little. Even in Ufology or Conspiracy Research alone! Let alone Spirituality, the NWO, Politics, and more...
It's very much like the folder and subfolder structure on your computer: if it's too complex, then things start getting a little tangled, and harder to find or search for stuff. But I'm not disagreeing that there could be more... the question is what to feature, and what not to.
Final (fatal) shooter: storm drain where the vehicle slowed down.... 7 or 8 "real" shooters in total, 1 fall guy.Quote:
Posted by Spellbound
Storm Drain, yes. (The shooter was Johnny Roselli.)Quote:
Posted by TargeT
I started to watch a video in which they said that we now know there were 8 shooters, and we know their names. I didnt get to watch the rest of the video though. Where is this coming from? Has new evidence come out?Quote:
Posted by TargeT
I've always thought the drain shooter theory was said to be unlikely because they would have no field of vision. The shooter would only be able to see the car when it pulled right in front of him. He would have been at an awkward angle, and I believe I've seen, maybe even in The Men Who Killed Kennedy, someone looking into the sewer and showing how small it was and how difficult it would have been for someone to wait in there for the duration of the parade and to get into a decent shooting position.
The car slowed to a stop at the drain location.. it would have been a shot from 10 or so feet away; the storm drain in 1963 was narrower and at least twice as tall as the drain is today (roads get repaved etc etc) so that attempt at "debunking" was actually rather comical.Quote:
Posted by blackdog
This is, by far, the BEST video on the topic I have ever seen. It leaves no stone unturned and will comprehensively answer any and all questions concerning the JFK incident.
Quote:
The who, how & why of the JFK assassination. Taken from an historical perspective starting around world war 1 leading to present day. We hope after watching this video you will know more about what happened in the past and how the world is run today.
FYI
The below video will start at the portion that explains the shooter in the storm drain (1:49:00 into the 3+ hour film... your welcome ;) haha )
This is one of the best documentaries I've ever seen, if you have not watched it; you OWE it to your self... I've watched it 3 times.
Rich Man's Trick is a VERY good documentary for JFK. Though for 9/11, I prefer The New Pearl Harbor doc. Both are outstanding. I've never been to Dealy Plaza, though from what I've heard from people who have been there, it's a lot smaller than one would think having only seen it in videos or pictures.
Dave - Toronto
¤=[Post Update]=¤
JFK was being hunted, from city to city, imo. They were going to get him in Chicago, and then in Miami, and finally they nailed him in Dallas.Quote:
Posted by blackdogI started to watch a video in which they said that we now know there were 8 shooters, and we know their names. I didnt get to watch the rest of the video though. Where is this coming from? Has new evidence come out?Quote:
Posted by TargeT
I've always thought the drain shooter theory was said to be unlikely because they would have no field of vision. The shooter would only be able to see the car when it pulled right in front of him. He would have been at an awkward angle, and I believe I've seen, maybe even in The Men Who Killed Kennedy, someone looking into the sewer and showing how small it was and how difficult it would have been for someone to wait in there for the duration of the parade and to get into a decent shooting position.
Dave - Toronto
When you think about the storm drain theory...I think it would take someone with nerves of steel to do it from there and stay huddled down there for hours afterwards, hoping that someone doesn't clue in - hey, what about down there??!!....thereby leaving oneself exposed to be caught. The other shooters were long gone within seconds. In fact, I'd bet that entire area would have been under surveillance for days. I really don't know what to think of the storm drain theory.
Dave - Toronto
I think you should watch the video again... I know human kinds memory retention is weak (and as I've said, I've watched it over 3 times now)Quote:
Posted by Spellbound
Here is your answer (the video will start at the right time to explain @ 1:52.27):
a STORM drain isn't just a concrete box in the ground, it's connected by drainage tunnels... the shot was taken and the shooter crawled (crouched?) back through the 400 foot tunnel to an exit...
IMO, this is CIA to the T... a well planned assassination with MULTIPLE contingencies built in.
Thanks. This is the video I was asking about and had started to watch.Quote:
Posted by TargeT
I think this guy is nuts tho. Who is he for starters? He's presenting highly controversial material as if it is proven fact, especially regarding JFK. I thought maybe there was some new research out there that I had missed, but apparently, this is his own research and his own opinions.
The guy in front of the Book Depository doesnt look like George Bush. I like how he uses analysis from a YouTube video by a guy who he assumes is a police officer.
It's funny how this video is making its way around the internet conspiracy world. Over three million views for some nobody? I wouldnt be surprised if this was intelligence propaganda. He uses a lot of facts but connects the dots in a reckless fashion.
The American elites are not Nazis. I keep hearing this. They used the Nazis. They arent gangsters either. They are opportunists.
The J.D. Tippitt theory is nutty. They stole a policeman's body to replace JFK's? Sounds like it would greatly increase the degree of difficulty of the operation.
I guess I'm just not buying it.
Thanks though. This is the video I was referring to and trying to find. :)
I wonder if we'll ever really know? There was another copy/version of the Zapbruder footage floating around a while back, non-enhanced - (I think from Russia?) I downloaded it at the time.
I'm not entirely convinced Jackie is trying to get pieces of JFK's brain off the trunk lid either; (I know that's what she testified) - her body actions would say otherwise - she's forced back into the car by one of the agents running behind the car. It looked to me as if she would have kept going otherwise, ie exiting the car.
I also can't really see how the 5th fatal shot could have been fired from a drain either? The angles are all wrong? The shooter would have had to be standing or kneeling at the same height as Kennedy's head and firing from in front of the car (the shot would have to go between the two agents driving, & the Connally's and through the windscreen to hit JFK. That's one hell of a shot! Sorry, I don't buy it! ;) :shielddeflect:
Regarding the storm drain theory, I think it is possible there was a shooter in there, but how can we know? Seems like the grassy knoll is still the likely place for the origin of the kill shot.
This video was on tv and most shows on tv about JFK are propaganda, but it shows someone getting into the drain.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=9IvdyF0gYHI
If this is the actual storm drain - and of course, it is possible that it is not - then the shooter would not be able to stand. His shooting stance would be awkward. And, how big are the tunnels for escape from this spot. At best, the shooter would be crawling a long way through less than ideal conditions. Rich Man's Trick shows footage of someone jumping out of a huge tunnel big enough for a man to walk through standing up.
One of the doctors in Rich Man's Trick says the exit wound was at the right rear of the skull, the same side as the entrance wound. That would mean the shot came from the front at roughly eye level or above, eliminating the grassy knoll and the sewer.
A lot of people say a lot of different things. This guy from the video is acting like he has an airtight case on every aspect of the event.
One thing I like about the storm drain theory is that, if the bullet came from below, entering the temple and then exiting immediately an inch or two above, that might explain the explosion effect. If entrance and exit were that close, it could have just destroyed that side of his skull, if the fractured points connected.
We don't train to shoot in comfortable positions ;) I qualify on an M16a2 every year.. I have to fire from prone supported (most comfortable, laying down with a sandbag to rest the rifle on) Pron unsupported (just laying on flat ground) and kneeling (pretty damn hard to do in body armor.. haha). When I was with a light scout infantry unit we would do live fire exercises that had you shooting from all kinds of strange positions, because... that's realistic (and it's not hard for some one who shoots a lot, I even got pretty good at drawing my side arm, leaning forward from the waist and shooting behind me during CQB drills... with body armor on you feel like a turtle, this was the fastest method to clear rear threats).Quote:
Posted by blackdog
and the "huge tunnel" (at the very end) is typical of large city drainage systems; they have "clean out" points where all the... "stuff" that floats collects and maintenance workers go in routinely to clear it out.
watch the film again, his (JFK) head was leaning far forward when the last shot was fired (supposedly due to the fact that he had already been shot twice and slumped forward as far as his back brace would allow)... IMO this indicates the round came from very low to be at "eye level" due to the tilt of his head.Quote:
Posted by blackdog
Yes, a bit too confident... I hardly ever am that confident about anything... hahaQuote:
Posted by blackdog
Agreed except the grassy knoll shooter(s) would be almost side-on to Kennedy by the time the kill shot happened (the car's moved a few hundred meters by then - refer to the map below) - again, the angles are all wrong for that particular shot. Also doesn't explain the difference in "damage" ie two different weapons. That fatal shot literally "explodes" his head?
Attachment 34100
Attachment 34101
Yeah, I'm not qualified to argue with someone who actually trains with guns. It just looks like it might even be too small to get a rifle in there without the end sticking out visibly into the street. The shooter would have to stay there for the duration of the parade, if not longer, in cramped conditions. Then he would have to wait until everyone left, or crawl out through what looks to be very small exit tunnels. I'm not saying it didnt happen. I'm just thinking about likelihood.Quote:
Posted by TargeT
Ok, but if that is the real sewer in the video, the tunnels may not have been big enough to even get through.Quote:
and the "huge tunnel" (at the very end) is typical of large city drainage systems; they have "clean out" points where all the... "stuff" that floats collects and maintenance workers go in routinely to clear it out.
Well, maybe you would know better than me, but you get people talking, like Gerald Posner, about the counter-intuitive reactions bodies have when they are shot. If I recall correctly, Posner argues that the shot came from behind and that it was the explosion of the exit wound that knocked JFK's head backwards. So, who knows when it comes to judging from the motion of the body.Quote:
watch the film again, his (JFK) head was leaning far forward when the last shot was fired (supposedly due to the fact that he had already been shot twice and slumped forward as far as his back brace would allow)... IMO this indicates the round came from very low to be at "eye level" due to the tilt of his head.
...and that doctor is still in the video talking about the exit wound on the same side. It's just not consistent with the narrator's argument.
Good. Me either. :)Quote:
Yes, a bit too confident... I hardly ever am that confident about anything... haha
See the pics I've added above to post #23 and carefully look at the angles and where the limo would have been at each shot relative to the shooters positions ;)
Also note Kennedy's head is pointed down and to the left, he's now slumped into Jackie when the fatal shot occurs.
Then compare that to the autopsy pics to get an idea of the angle.
A drain shooter would have to be firing upward (the angles don't work)
The other shots were elevated, from the rear and front/side, fired downward into the car
5th & fatal shot at JFK's head level & fired from slightly to the left & in front of JFK (not to mention at either very close range OR a very powerful weapon to do that kind of damage)
I assume people are familiar with James Files(?). I dont know that any prominent researchers support his story, but I find it interesting:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=qr4vgHsmNEk
Any opinions? There seem to be a lot of debunkers out there.
they can be a lot bigger than you'd think, here's a picture of a Dallas drainage tunnel:Quote:
Posted by blackdogOk, but if that is the real sewer in the video, the tunnels may not have been big enough to even get through.Quote:
Posted by TargeT
http://alexplorer.net/urban/dallas/2...4_rat-race.jpg
But, you're right, I'd like to a lot more footage and angles than that "discovery" (science propaganda) video showed.... I'm not saying it's absolutely the case, I'm just saying it seems very possible, that kind of area would have VERY large drainage tunnels due to the slope of the land above it (I was just there 2 weeks ago investigating the Dallas police shooting... well that wasn't my primary purpose, but a side activity).
I've learned a lot about water management as my property is a part of the islands "drainage" when heavy rains come.. which is often in the tropics.
Admittedly: I've never shot a person at close range, but I have shot a lot of deer and caribou and moose and bear (some times at ranges FAR closer than I was comfortable with). & I've never seen something like that happen, the energy transfer begins the second the bullet enters, they are always knocked back and away from me (generally using a .308) if they stay on their feet, or drop to the ground in an "away from me" direction.Quote:
Posted by blackdog
This is something I never read in a JFK assassination book. Dealey, of Dealey Plaza fame, was a Freemason. It's almost like a Masonic plaza. 11/22/1963... 11+22=33
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Dealey:
From the Dealey Lodge website at http://www.dealeylodge.com/about.html :"George Bannerman Dealey (September 18, 1859 – February 26, 1946) was a Dallas, Texas, businessman. Dealey was the long-time publisher of The Dallas Morning News and owner of the A. H. Belo Corporation. Dealey Plaza in Dallas is named in his honor."
"Dealey was a Thirty-third-degree Scottish Rite Mason, Knight Templar, Shriner, and member of the Red Cross of Constantine. He was a Presbyterian and Democrat. The New York Times called him the dean of American publishers. He died at his home in Dallas on February 26, 1946, of a coronary occlusion."
http://i.imgur.com/XAqUYry.jpg?1 http://i.imgur.com/mP7ZPmd.jpg?1"Dealey was a Thirty-third-degree Scottish Rite Mason, Knight Templar, Shriner, and member of the Red Cross of Constantine. Dealey Plaza was named after George Bannerman Dealey, founder of the ‘Dallas Morning News,’ and a civic leader in the area. The Plaza happens to the location of the very first home in Dallas, along with it being the site of the first courthouse, store, post-office, and Freemason’s Lodge. In the plaza is an obelisk that has a plaque identifying the site as ‘the birthplace of Dallas.’ In 1935, the site was named Dealey Plaza, and was placed under the management and authority of the City of Dallas Park Board a year later."
http://i.imgur.com/FXi3n9N.jpg?1 http://i.imgur.com/jzePDEj.jpg?1
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Zapruder :
http://i.imgur.com/8wWMD1y.jpg?1"Abraham Zapruder...(May 15, 1905 – August 30, 1970) was an American manufacturer of women's clothing and private citizen, who became best known for his home movie filming U.S. President John F. Kennedy's motorcade passing through Dealey Plaza in Dallas, Texas on November 22, 1963, thereby inadvertently capturing the President's assassination."
"Zapruder was also a Freemason of the 33rd degree."
Why don't the angles work, just because of the autopsy photo?Quote:
Posted by KiwiElf
Quote:
Posted by KiwiElf
I'm using the video, as there has been a lot of questions about JFK's body and possible re-constructive surgery ... so the autopsy photo's have been put into too much question for me. the video,however, is probably LESS tainted (not free of it, by any means).
From what I see on the video, the shot came from someone in the car on the right side (unlikely) or a lower angle, but definitely forward and to the right, the kinetic movement after the final shot struck "feels right" in my experience for a shot from the drain, forward of the car and off to the right.
That whole area, TO THIS DAY is full of masonic crap.. huge glass pyramids.. obelisks.... I'm very sure that spot was picked for this reason and Zapruder was not at that very convenient spot by coincidence (Note, his LOS gave him footage of every single shooter's attempt.. to INCLUDE the drainage shot... coincidence? or collection of proof?)Quote:
Posted by blackdog
I'll have to check this out later.. can you provide a summary? 2:48:23 is a lot to bite into with your indications of dubious material.Quote:
Posted by blackdog
My bad. This guy claims to be the grassy knoll shooter. Here's a shorter clip:Quote:
Posted by TargeT
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Hbcxd4NX-zw
It has been a while since I watched it, so I cant provide too much detail. It seemed to me at the time that he knew a lot about it for a guy who isnt exactly a professor.
There are other short clips on YouTube if you search for James Files. There is also a documentary that I cant find now. I'll post it if I find it. There's a new version out there that I havent seen, but the guy who owns the rights to this material now backs some obvious liars, like Judyth Baker.
Gut feeling: disinfo agent.Quote:
Posted by blackdog
The gnoll was never a possibility IMO.. the angles were all wrong... but it was a great distraction.
I'll still watch it, but I'm doubtful to begin with (hopefully not in a limiting way).
He probably is.....but maybe not.Quote:
Posted by TargeT
I think this is the documentary that includes James Files. Like I said, I havent seen in it a while, but I remember thinking, even if it wasnt Files, this is similar to how I thought the assassination occurred.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Cdo5zAhUCdg
The angles don't work because of the autopsy photos and the position of the car when each shot is fired (to me, anyway. Did you refer back to the two pics I added?) ;) You need to compare the map, each step of the Zapbruder footage, each shot, where everyone's sitting and how Connally got hit, too.
The grassy knoll shooter works for the throat shot, but not the others.
The Zapbruder footage is clearer in the movie THE KILLING OF AMERICA - 1981 before they started "enhancing" it but you will have to step frame it - at least it's not cropped. It's still the best publicly available evidence. (You can even see the puff of smoke fired from the "alleged" weapon by the driver and his left arm reaching over his shoulder! Unfortunately, it was a "banned" video in the US - I wonder why? ;) - and it was removed from video shops shortly after its release, YouTube etc. - I have both. - It may be available on torrent sites). Can't see that in the "enhanced versions" ;)
I'd have to draw a pile of diagrams with a top down view to better explain it, but the 6 shots explained by Groden in my earlier post pretty well sum it up, and yeah I'm still favouring the driver theory for the fatal shot atm irrespective that it's been debunked (they've all been debunked). Why? Because atm, it still makes the most logical sense based on the evidence;
* the fact that the driver lied in his testimony
* the angles "work" - all of them,
* the massive fatal wound "works" (and Cooper's description of the weapon and why)
* the autopsy pics "work" (including the clear tampering of the earlier ones)
* Jackie only testified in the Warren Commission - she never spoke of it again. It's plausible she was coached with the "picking up her husband's brains" excuse (did she have a choice?)
* I'm convinced by Jackie's actions that she is trying to get out of the car - she doesn't look at the trunk, see his brains and then think - "oh.. I'll pick up his brain bits"; ;) she literally dumps JFK off her lap & jumps straight out without looking at what might be on the trunk (and is pushed back into the car again by the agent following the car).
* the tie in to Bethesda Naval Hospital - same hospital that Secretary Forrestal "fell out the window" to his death (Forrestal was an original member of MJ-12 and wanted to tell the public)
Then there's Cooper's testimony (Cooper didn't get to where he was in Naval Intelligence at the time if he was a liar or nutter and he was in a position to "know"). Why would he risk the flak that would come publicly if he was making it up? (Not to mention instantly making him a "dead man walking" - you need to read that section in Behold a Pale Horse) and then wade through all the other theories. Furthermore, it has been seen that the public version(s) of the Zapbruder footage has been tampered with, as he stated. (I saw one of the original video tapes that Cooper (& Lear) were showing at his lectures that he claims is hidden from the public - it does show it quite clearly and it is different from the ones you see on YouTube).
Of course "they'd" debunk it because that would be irrefutable proof that the "agency" was involved. An inside "government" job, involving Bush & Johnson etc as well. A Cabal killing. (Also JFK's threat to crush the CIA, expose MJ-12, and what was really on the Moon just before the shooting to me is the strongest motive. He had to be "expedited").
Just call me... very suspicious :)
Thx TargeT. I just assumed the storm drain was simply a so called concrete box in the ground. Not sure the angle works from the drain, but it is very intriguing. I really must watch Rich Man's Trick again (imo up among the best JKF docs in existence).Quote:
Posted by TargeTI think you should watch the video again... I know human kinds memory retention is weak (and as I've said, I've watched it over 3 times now)Quote:
Posted by Spellbound
Here is your answer (the video will start at the right time to explain @ 1:52.27):
a STORM drain isn't just a concrete box in the ground, it's connected by drainage tunnels... the shot was taken and the shooter crawled (crouched?) back through the 400 foot tunnel to an exit...
IMO, this is CIA to the T... a well planned assassination with MULTIPLE contingencies built in.
Dave - Toronto
Avalon really does need a JFK subsection here in Conspiracy Research.
Dave - Toronto
Interesting video, I'd not see that before. Thing is, as another poster said, the roadway has been paved and repaved several times over the years, thereby lessening the available line of sight with each paving over. Also, I had no idea there were 2 other storm drains at the overpass (well, one really...as the left side one wasn't there in 1963 according to Discovery). That one drain on the right side...situated higher than the grassy knoll....which Discovery says could have a line of sight but was likely blocked by trees or people....that angle could work.Quote:
Posted by blackdog
Dave - Toronto
I like that one too, but I'm not committed to either, and from what I see I still think the drain shot was a viable option. I don't consider that other weapon a "shot", it's far more exotic and the damage shown support it's description but I've never seen anything like that so I can't say much about it.Quote:
Posted by KiwiElf
too far gone, too little evidence.. lots of guesses.
I'm open to a better theory too - I just haven't seen it yet :). Here's the "juicy" extracts from Cooper's book & statements: (I'll tidy it up a bit later ;)) Still pretty compelling info IMO
“...MJ-12 assassinated
President Kennedy when
he informed them that he
was going to tell the public
all the facts of the alien
presence. He was killed by
the Secret Service agent
driving his car, and it is
plainly visible in the film
held from public view...”
"They killed President Kennedy. Between
‘70 and ‘73, in Operation Majority,
it stated verbatim that President
Kennedy ordered MJ-12 to cease the importation
and sale of drugs to the American
people, that he ordered them to implement
a plan to reveal the presence of
aliens to the American people within the
following year. His assassination was ordered
by the policy committee of the
Vilderbergers. MJ-12 implemented the
plan and carried it out in Dallas. It involved
agents of the CIA, Division-5 of
the FBI, the Secret Service, and the Office
of Naval Intelligence (ONI).
President Kennedy was killed by the
driver of his car, Agent William Greer,
who used a recoilless, electrically-operated,
gas-powered assassination pistol that
was specially built by the CIA to assassinate
people at close range. It fired an
explosive pellet which injected a large
amount of shellfish poison into the brain,
and that is why, in the documents, it stated
that President Kennedy’s brain was removed.
If you’ve studied the case, you
will find that indeed his brain disappeared
[from the National Archives]. The reason
for that is so that they would not find the
particles of the exploding pellet or the
shellfish poison in his brain which would
have proved conclusively that Lee Harvey
Oswald was not the assassin. In fact, Lee
Harvey Oswald never fired a shot, he was
the patsy.”
Cooper paused briefly, and a woman in
the audience asked the obvious question,
“Why haven’t you been assassinated?”
“If they were to kill me right now,
what would you think?” Cooper posed.
“That it’s the truth,” several people
chimed."
"Cooper then opened up the floor to
questions and answers. Due to limited
space, only questions pertaining to the
JFK assassination have been included.
Q What about all the people in the press
and others who were in Dallas and who
saw the assassination? Couldn’t they tell
where the shot came from? Why didn’t
they come forward? There must have
been plenty...
A There were. We know that there
were at least 18 [witnesses] who were
all murdered within two years of the
event. The odds of that happening are
1-in-300,000 trillion.
Q Why did the driver have to shoot
Kennedy?”
A Because the other fools missed! There
were a total of three shots fired at [that hit]
President Kennedy; one hit him in the
throat and another in the back and didn’t
kill him. Two other shots hit John Connally
and one missed. The one that was fired
from the grassy knoll hit the president in
the throat. The other shots came from
directly behind the limousine, not the
school book depository building, and hit
both Kennedy & Governor Connally.
Governor Connally, in intelligence community
circles, was known as a ‘can do’
man, because he took two hits and still
kept his mouth shut.
Q How is it that the driver, sitting on the
front, left-hand side of the car was able to
blow off the right side of Kennedy’s brain
when the bullet actually entered in, and it
would have been virtually impossible...
A For those of you who have been listening
to all these talk show hosts, whose
job it is to be a talk show host, and who
have not done any legitimate research
into this, if you come to the workshop, I
will show you, on the tape, how it was
done. You will see that Kennedy was, in
fact, slumped over against Jackie, his
head was turned [to the left and down], —
it was very simple. It was easy and you
will see it with your own eyes.”
Q Why has no one else had come forward
with the information [Cooper was
disseminating] and why have those who
knew it kept it secret for so long?
A It hasn’t been, I’m talking about it now.
Bill English was talking about it eight years
ago, but everybody laughed at Bill English.
John Lear’s been talking about it for three
years, and everybody laughed at him. Now
there’s so many people who have been
talking about it, the public are starting to
listen, and it’s about time. Because it’s
about time that we quit being fools, and
that’s exactly what they think we are, and
we prove it to them every day.”
Q In the film of the assassination, which
was examined greatly by experts, why
didn’t they conclude that Kennedy’s driver
shot him?”
A Examined by whom greatly? Most of
the film that you can purchase has that
segment cut out, and you can always tell it
by the person running in the background,
they’ll run up to here... all of a sudden
they’ll be down here... running.
You will see in most of the clips that
you’ve ever seen on television, or in
the movies, or that you’re able to get
your hands on, you’ll see William Greer
start to turn like this...” then a muffled
comment from the audience, to which
Cooper answered,
“That’s because they clipped it out!
And on a lot of them, I’ll bet most of
you, every time you’ve seen the clip on
television, never looked at the driver
anyway. If you’re really honest with
yourself, and with me, you know your
eyes were right on Kennedy.”
Q Why was the shellfish poison necessary?
A lot of his brain was blown off
anyway.”
A The shellfish poison? If you go to kill
someone, one thing I’ve learned when I
went to Vietnam; just because you shoot
someone doesn’t mean they’re going to
die. And if they don’t die, they’re going
to be mad. And if they’ve got a gun,
you’re dead. So you want the first time to
be the last time. So if you really want to
kill somebody you don’t play around. If
you really want to kill somebody... you
kill them, you don’t play, you make sure
that when you shoot them, they’re dead.
That way they can’t hurt you at all.
Q Why didn’t Jackie Kennedy report
it? [the source of the lethal shot]
A Who’s she going to tell? The Secret
Service just killed her husband, and
they’re assigned to protect the President.
Also, who had her children? The
same Secret Service had her children at
the time.”
Another reason? Cooper had numerous attempts made on his life - (before he was finally gunned down) - after he came out with this. The other "theorists" haven't. I tend to take notice of whistle blowers who get "disappeared" shortly after they "blow the whistle". (Look at the number of people who have mysteriously been "disappeared" for challenging or exposing the Clintons?) I see a pattern that's difficult to ignore. ;)
As much as I do think there was a conspiracy to kill Kennedy (and I don't think Oswald fired as shot).....I have a very hard time giving any credence to the theory that the limo driver shot him in plain site in front of thousands of people with no one seeing it happen. That just doesn't jive for me. However, there is another theory that the kill shot was fired (accidentally) from a secret service agent's gun when he was reacting to the hoopla in the moment (apparently he was handling a gun that was extremely sensitive that went off).
Dave - Toronto