Do we have a Spirit? Do we have a Soul? And where's the proof?

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Posted by East Sun

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Posted by XelNaga

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Posted by East Sun

We believe because we were told by religion that this is so.

I have been pondering these questions for ever.

There is no way for anyone to prove that we have a soul or spirit.

We may be believers in God or whatever or be Atheists but we
just do not know for definite.

We hear or have been told of OBE's and they seem to be very real
and may very well be real even though not explainable.

That does not tell us if we have a Spirit or a Soul?

I personally do not think we can ever know if we have a Soul or Spirit.

That does not make us any less human.

I hope some Spiritually advanced person can throw some light
on my questions, without going into long rehashed dogma.

Spare me the religion approach.

Is there a definite proof or not.

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Dear East Sun,

I guess you will have the answer to this question when you get your first personal experience with "it".

I don't want to get into detail as it is off-topic in a way, but I have been standing next to my sleeping body in my bed.

Now, the "me" looking at my body, was it my spirit, my soul, my astral body, or just pure consciousness, I have no idea.

But there was me, not physical, looking at my sleeping body. Something is there inside of these meat suits, but what? Who knows...

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Hi XelNaga,
Could it be that you were dreaming that you were looking at your sleeping body? I don't doubt anybody's
experience no matter what it may have been.
What I was saying in my initial post was that there is no way to prove absolutely that there is a spirit or
soul or even God or to disprove them either.

It has nothing to do with what I do or don't believe. Maybe I'm amazed that so many people believe
totally without a doubt or just do not believe without a doubt. To me it's maybe yes or maybe no.
But as already said, there is a hell of a lot we don't know and lots we do know and can speculate
for ever.

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Hi East Sun,

Well actually, that is what I first thought, that it was all just a dream. Believe me, I'm not one to jump to conclusions easily. I come from a very scientific background, and always try to find "rational" explanations for everything. But sometimes you simply hit a wall with scientific approach, and you have to find a different one. I've done a lot of meditations, energy work and healings in the past 12 years to know when I reach that limit with scientific explanations.

Again, I don't want to explain that entire situation, as it is a bit off-topic, and would probably sound too weird to you, but during that experience there was "something or someone" else there with me, that didn't have best my best wishes at heart. Let's just say, I really pissed "it" off because of certain positive energy impact that I've made, both in my life and around it.

Now, there are three things that made me certain that it was real and not just in my head;

-my OBE wasn't intentional from my side, it was instigated by that thing/being, I was ripped out of my body so to speak;
-tomorrow after that experience, I've had physical marks on my body from "fight" with it, whatever it was
(I have tried to recreate a scenario how could I have made those injuries to myself, it was just not possible);
-my dog was with me in my room when it all happened, looking at that "being" with fear and growling at it.

I know to you this is all just hear-say, and that you would say that it was all just a nightmare with some coincidences added to it, but that is ok.
I was like that long time ago, and only personal experiences and energy work could break my scientific look at the world.

That is why I said what I said, when you get your first personal experience with something you won't be able to rationally explain, you will know.

I agree with you, and would even say, that there are much much more things that we do not know, then those that we do know.
This universe is sooooo big, with so many forms of life everywhere, our knowledge of it all is probably less than 1%.

Sorry for a long response,
Kind regards my friend...

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Posted by Charles Harris

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Posted by syrwong

A century ago a scientist took measurements of the weight of six dying men before and after death. His conclusion was that all lost weight to some extent, and one had lost 21g (quite a lot IMO), which presumably was the weight of the soul. Interesting. He was criticised of course, but more interesting is that this experiment was never repeated. Why is it that this important and revealing experiment not repeated? My conspiracy intuition tells me that the measuring the soul, proving its existence is forbidden. The hidden PTB doe not want us to study the soul. Conclusion is: All of us have a soul.

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I was going to bring this up if no one else did. I read about the same experiment but can't remember when or where.This would indeed constitute absolute physical proof IMO, or the closest thing to proof I know of.

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If I remember correctly, it was done by one of, if not the greatest scientist of all, who changed the world in so many ways, Nikola Tesla.
He could create paradise on earth, only if people weren't so evil and greedy, as they are now.

This was and is my mother's favorite fact. She swears by it. They measured the weight of the soul - it is real! She loved that, still does.

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Posted by East Sun

We are talking about proof of spirit which can not be deciphered in
any logical, definite way.

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It's fine by the way, I've got no problem with what you or anyone believes, we're just having a discussion and everything's fine. But I am struggling, because you say here:

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Posted by East Sun

BTW I do believe in reincarnation because of the research done by Dr. Ian
Stephenson.

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The soul and reincarnation are mutually dependent, so in a way it's like saying "I do believe in the ocean, but not the existence of water."

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Posted by Star Mariner

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Posted by East Sun

We are talking about proof of spirit which can not be deciphered in
any logical, definite way.

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It's fine by the way, I've got no problem with what you or anyone believes, we're just having a discussion and everything's fine. But I am struggling, because you say here:

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Posted by East Sun

BTW I do believe in reincarnation because of the research done by Dr. Ian
Stephenson.

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The soul and reincarnation are mutually dependent, so in a way it's like saying "I do believe in the ocean, but not the existence of water."

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Well, maybe I see things differently to most people, 'maybe'.
Why could there not be reincarnation without soul?

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Posted by East Sun

Why could there not be reincarnation without soul?

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Then who would be reincarnating? :)

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Posted by XelNaga

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Posted by Charles Harris

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Posted by syrwong

A century ago a scientist took measurements of the weight of six dying men before and after death. His conclusion was that all lost weight to some extent, and one had lost 21g (quite a lot IMO), which presumably was the weight of the soul. Interesting. He was criticised of course, but more interesting is that this experiment was never repeated. Why is it that this important and revealing experiment not repeated? My conspiracy intuition tells me that the measuring the soul, proving its existence is forbidden. The hidden PTB doe not want us to study the soul. Conclusion is: All of us have a soul.

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I was going to bring this up if no one else did. I read about the same experiment but can't remember when or where.This would indeed constitute absolute physical proof IMO, or the closest thing to proof I know of.

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If I remember correctly, it was done by one of, if not the greatest scientist of all, who changed the world in so many ways, Nikola Tesla.
He could create paradise on earth, only if people weren't so evil and greedy, as they are now.

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I think we blew our greatest chance to achieve greatness by rejecting Tesla and because of greed.

The experiment may not have been done by Tesla but by someone else. I don't know?

https://external-content.duckduckgo....6pid%3DApi&f=1

https://external-content.duckduckgo....6pid%3DApi&f=1

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Posted by Bill Ryan

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Posted by East Sun

Why could there not be reincarnation without soul?

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Then who would be reincarnating? :)

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It would be memories by a previous person in a "new" body.

That does not mean that they had a soul or spirit or that god was part of the process.

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Posted by East Sun

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Posted by meeradas

Just decide.
What would you rather have/be?
An answer from outside will never satisfy you, anyway.

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It's not a matter of what I would rather be or believe.
No answer will suffice. I asked for answers and I got what I expected.
There are no adequate answers because we simply do not know.

Why will people not admit that we do not know?

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With respect East Sun, we do know. I’m not sure what else has been written here but we are spirit, we are energy, we are the living embodiment of the universe/God/source. Those of us who have gone through the awakening process know this absolutely. Personally, I can feel both the chakras, my soul, and the energy, or spirit, which runs through it. Everyone has this potential, perhaps you are not recognising it for what it is.

No one can prove the intangible. It’s a private, personal experience but ultimately it will be the same for everyone.

It isn’t up to anyone else to prove this to you, they couldn’t if they tried, awakening presents itself as an invitation from the universe and you will be called when you are ready.

In the meantime, MEDITATE MEDITATE MEDITATE, concentrate on the physical sensations you experience rather than worrying about your thoughts, they’ll be your gateway.

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Posted by East Sun

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Posted by Bill Ryan

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Posted by East Sun

Why could there not be reincarnation without soul?

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Then who would be reincarnating? :)

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It would be memories by a previous person in a "new" body.

That does not mean that they had a soul or spirit or that god was part of the process.

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What are those memories? Where would they come from? What would they be attached to or what form would they take? How would they be transported? Why would you believe they are memories and not the soul or spirit?

Confused by your line of thinking here.....

Is this just an issue of semantics or understanding here?

It's turtles all the way....

That doesn't mean you're a turtle but you could be for the duration. :sherlock:

https://cdn.funnyisms.com/3e7e7739-5...46c532aaf0.jpg

To be or not to be, it's only as important as we think it is.

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Posted by TraineeHuman

East Sun, the way I see it (and have certainly experienced it many, many times too) is that you are actually the (admittedly, undefinable) universe, but, also, necessarily if you're this "you" (which you certainly are), then you are at the same time existing within and (at least in some huge ways) in control of, the context that is your (East Sun's, or whoever's) physical body and physical situation; and also existing in, and controlling, what is the context of whatever goes on in and as your mental, emotional, intuitional and other such aspects, whenever these are genuine and true, and when viewed from a suffering-free perspective.

I see the word "soul" as referring primarily to the intuitional (or, if you like, the wholistic thinking/seeing or the "looking") level of all this but also as monitoring all that happens on the levels below it (physical, emotional, mental, and whatever else). The soul isn't a "thing", such as what a noun could refer to. Instead it's relational -- much more like a verb is. (And then going even further in that direction, if you can imagine that. Like after the lights go on at the movie theater and you're reminded that what you've been engrossed in for over an hour was just a fantasy.)

As far as I'm aware, the soul is also in itself beyond all electromagnetic reality, even though it can enter into or penetrate or even interconnect with the electromagnetic world easily enough, at least in certain circumstances (such as in meditation).

To put it mildly, there's even more to this that I could tell, and that others have of course raised here. But I'll stop at this point. After all, you're apparently claiming all of the above would have to be a fiction of some sort (a so-called "hologram", perhaps?) , or in some way based on fiction or delusion.

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From my own direct experience, the true nature of our being -being holographic in its nature as well as multidimensional and fractal means that the electromagnetic field eminates from our soul.

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Posted by East Sun

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Posted by Bill Ryan

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Posted by East Sun

Why could there not be reincarnation without soul?

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Then who would be reincarnating? :)

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It would be memories by a previous person in a "new" body.

That does not mean that they had a soul or spirit or that god was part of the process.

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A question for you East Sun. How do you know when someone loves you? How do you know that you are loved? :flower:

If soul exists it is just a boundary. It defines an entity in time and space similarly to an ego defining an entity in a body on earth. Taking the idea of reincarnation and the so above so below paradigm it stands to reason that a soul even though bound by different laws than the ego will at some point die and be reborn again?

Buddha said some questions when asked will only serve to confuse, because an answer even if it is valid has absolutely no significance to the actions we take.
The belief in the existence of soul may yield a feeling of security. But that feeling is accessible through a Merida of other belief systems.

With Love

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Posted by Constance

The reason that people will not admit that they do not know is because when we have a direct connection to our true nature, like a near-death experience, or an out-of-body experience, or we bilocate or we have a parallel universe experience, there is direct awareness of the truth that we are universal, supernatural, cosmic, multidimensional, spiritual, infinite, eternal beings. It is something that has to be experienced to comprehend. We cannot appreciate what we cannot perceive.

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I've had OOB's, Had conversations with myself from other timelines. I have seen some forms of here and now in deep meditation retreats. Experiences are just that. Experiences. Here one moment gone the next. There is nothing but fabrications of the mind that structure experiences into something meaningful.


That is the way thing are.

I agree we can experience universal, supernatural, cosmic, multidimensional, spiritual, infinite and eternal states.
That fact says nothing about the idea that there is some form of self identifiable being we call our Self or Soul that experiences these kinds of things.

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Posted by Catsquotl

If soul exists it is just a boundary. It defines an entity in time and space similarly to an ego defining an entity in a body on earth. Taking the idea of reincarnation and the so above so below paradigm it stands to reason that a soul even though bound by different laws than the ego will at some point die and be reborn again?

Buddha said some questions when asked will only serve to confuse, because an answer even if it is valid has absolutely no significance to the actions we take.
The belief in the existence of soul may yield a feeling of security. But that feeling is accessible through a Merida of other belief systems.

With Love

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That does not apply in non duality -- That is to say only One soul.
Omni present sums it up.
There is nowhere that Soul, That- One without a second -- Brahman -- God --- is not.

The same substratum in everything.
Varying degrees of the One energy.

If the belief is duality -- me and everything else -- subject and object then thats a different story and just as valid

Chris

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Posted by greybeard

That does not apply in non duality -- That is to say only One soul.
Omni present sums it up.
There is nowhere that Soul, That- One without a second -- Brahman -- God --- is not.


Chris

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Agreed, That is the only reality, if you will, I accept without question.
I did not define soul to be Brahman, I defined it as a part of him defined as separate in order to experience him/her self.
If you define Soul as One.. I agree.

~edit~
Brahman, Tao, God, the One however cannot be known or defined. So for practical purposes there is Soul, but not your Soul. There is life, but not your life.
If there is reincarnation it isn't you who reincarnates. Unless you identify as all That is.
I for one would not dare to make that presumption.
And yet He is my core.

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Posted by Catsquotl

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Posted by Constance

The reason that people will not admit that they do not know is because when we have a direct connection to our true nature, like a near-death experience, or an out-of-body experience, or we bilocate or we have a parallel universe experience, there is direct awareness of the truth that we are universal, supernatural, cosmic, multidimensional, spiritual, infinite, eternal beings. It is something that has to be experienced to comprehend. We cannot appreciate what we cannot perceive.

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I've had OOB's, Had conversations with myself from other timelines. I have seen some forms of here and now in deep meditation retreats. Experiences are just that. Experiences. Here one moment gone the next. There is nothing but fabrications of the mind that structure experiences into something meaningful.


That is the way thing are.

I agree we can experience universal, supernatural, cosmic, multidimensional, spiritual, infinite and eternal states.
That fact says nothing about the idea that there is some form of self identifiable being we call our Self or Soul that experiences these kinds of things.

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A quick question for you Catsquotl :flower: What is the mind?

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Posted by Constance

A quick question for you Catsquotl :flower: What is the mind?

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