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Thread: Racism

  1. Link to Post #541
    Avalon Member Gemma13's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Karen (Geophyz) (here)
    I respectfully ask everyone to take a deep breath and think before you post. We are not hear to attack each other, we are here to have intelligent conversation and debate. We do not have to agree with each other but the attacks and insults need to stop.

    Thanks everyone.
    Roger that.

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    United States Avalon Member Strat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    UhHuh, what exactly do you mean, Strat? Nobody who has read about the lead up to the Ferguson episode, in depth, would be able to deny systemic racism. So again, what point are you trying to make?
    I felt it was pretty obvious? Point was that I do read and I am active in trying to help others. It's part of my life. You said folks like me don't, so I wish we could bet so I could make some money.

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    And do you honestly think that the white middle class people on this thread have made an effort to learn anything about the black poverty stricken blacks?
    Whatever others do on this forum is their business. Let them be and don't judge. Since your asking: I dunno but it is Avalon so maybe.

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    That was the point of my post. Every time someone draws attention to the fact that "all lives matter" is dismissive they get jumped on.

    It's become a PA illness of some sort. Don't you freqking dare stick up for blacks or ever infer that BLM is anything other than a covert Commie operation on this forum. No sir.

    The fact that it is many things, particularly blacks honestly protesting police murder? Well, you just shut your mouth about that here. And don't dare criticize anybody about their "point of view" in that regard either.
    Well that's how you see it. I just think the majority of the forum thinks differently than you regarding this matter. I think spoon bending is bs, but I don't go into that thread and tell them they're wrong. It wouldn't get anything accomplished other than me annoying people.
    Today is victory over yourself of yesterday. Tomorrow is your victory over lesser men.

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  5. Link to Post #543
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    UhHuh, what exactly do you mean, Strat? Nobody who has read about the lead up to the Ferguson episode, in depth, would be able to deny systemic racism. So again, what point are you trying to make?

    And do you honestly think that the white middle class people on this thread have made an effort to learn anything about the black poverty stricken blacks?
    Ferguson suffered from wealth inequality and cultural issues that were exacerbated by media twisting a tragedy into a (successfully) attempted race bait moment.

    I lived as a 10% minority for the last 8 years, I have quite a bit of experience in extremely low income communities (if race matters so much to you, it was predominately black) as those were the groups I worked with when I ran the horse rescue; that is why I think we are mostly looking at a cultural issue mixed with wealth disparity.



    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    That was the point of my post. Every time someone draws attention to the fact that "all lives matter" is dismissive they get jumped on.
    that just makes no sense, it is INCLUSIVE! "black lives matter" is dismissive to everyone but blacks... that's racist by definition.

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    It's become a PA illness of some sort. Don't you freqking dare stick up for blacks or ever infer that BLM is anything other than a covert Commie operation on this forum. No sir.
    The fact that you think "blacks" need to be stuck up for, and you are some how in a position to champion them is kinda racist also... why do you paint an entire race that way?


    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    The fact that it is many things, particularly blacks honestly protesting police murder? Well, you just shut your mouth about that here. And don't dare criticize anybody about their "point of view" in that regard either.
    Everyone should protest police murder, why does race have to come into it?


    its best to work with facts on this stuff, not feelings. Yes there are terrible and upsetting situations, but we have a lot of examples where people use those types of situations to try and gain in some way... that requires even more dethatched scrutinization and research.
    Hard times create strong men, Strong men create good times, Good times create weak men, Weak men create hard times.
    Where are you?

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  7. Link to Post #544
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)

    And do you honestly think that the white middle class people on this thread have made an effort to learn anything about the black poverty stricken blacks?
    Wow! You have no idea what you are saying.
    I've seen you do this a few times over the years Autumn; you seem to abandon reason in favour of emotion with scant regard for what you are actually contributing.

    Over here Bill posted a very good video which I think everyone who has taken part in the Racism and Systemic Racism threads would be well advised to watch and ponder.


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  9. Link to Post #545
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by safara (here)
    Was born in Rhodesia, lived and holidayed in South Africa during apartheid, schooled in both Rhodesia, and later Zimbabwe for secondary education. Family have now all left Zimbabwe during the issues of the first decase of the 21st century. Now live in a more and more separatist and marginalist UK.

    Have seen, experienced and been affected greatly by racism over the years.
    Folks, I know new Avalon member safara of old, when I lived and worked in the UK. He's a friend, a wonderful man, and he has an abundance of experiences and stories to share.

    I know about some of his experiences in Zimbabwe, but by no means all. And nothing of his experiences in South Africa. @safara, could you maybe enlarge on what you saw, witnessed and knew of? I'm aware it could run to half a book, but maybe you could list a bunch of bulletpoints. And we could easily create a new standalone thread for it if it seems to be a good idea. I think very many would be interested.


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  11. Link to Post #546
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    Default Re: Racism

    Again, many in the the white middle class here don't get it. My complaint lies in there making little attempt to read, in depth, anything that addresses the criminal justice system in the U.S. The people caught in this system are out of sight and out of mind in Gulag America, and it follows them like an anchor, after they are released.

    I am not saying that forum members aren't good people who never help anybody. I am saying there is a problem on the forum and a compilation of Dark Horse videos will not convince me otherwise. If those videos were focussed on the state of policing or the prison system, and members watched them and STILL are of the opinion that systemic racism doesn't exist I am kind of at a loss for words. It's a lost cause.

    I have had a few members encourage me to keep fighting here, as it is so disheartening for them to see what has happened. These are current members who wish to remain on good terms with Bill Ryan.

    If members, generally Trump supporters, who are susceptible to disreputable framing by their media, don't get it, it's not because they are retarded hillbillies. The retarded hillbilly framing of this issue is top down propaganda and lack of understanding coming from what you would call, 'the left.'

    How insulting is that, correct? It is just as insulting to be mislabeled a SJW or someone with emotional stability issues, when you are passionately in disagreement with the, "all lives matter," Not because it shouldn't be put into practice -- but because, as a knee jerk reaction to a black person essentially saying, "my life matters" it is off putting, to say the least.

    If all lives really do matter, not as a slap back slogan, but as a reality, I once again suggest you dig deeper and try to understand the appalling systemic racism within militarized police departments and within the prison system.

    I am a Canadian and I can tell you it is beyond appalling in this country and has been going on decades, unaddressed. Hopefully, we are beginning to come to grips with it here. Hopefully.

    The impression one gets when perusing the forum, where Breitbart videos get a solid pass, where some pretty hateful stuff is on full display, is not a positive one. It supports the premise that, "all lives matter," is being used to whitewash a very deep problem.

    The group admonishment I posted initially, was a "if the shoe fits, wear it." I felt the use of the word, "you" was appropriate, due to the content of the thread. If some members were insulted because they felt it didn't apply to them, I am sorry I wasn't more specific. Other than that, I stand by everything I wrote last night. It came right from my heart.
    Last edited by AutumnW; 25th November 2020 at 21:20.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by safara (here)
    Was born in Rhodesia, lived and holidayed in South Africa during apartheid, schooled in both Rhodesia, and later Zimbabwe for secondary education. Family have now all left Zimbabwe during the issues of the first decase of the 21st century. Now live in a more and more separatist and marginalist UK.

    Have seen, experienced and been affected greatly by racism over the years.
    Folks, I know new Avalon member safara of old, when I lived and worked in the UK. He's a friend, a wonderful man, and he has an abundance of experiences and stories to share.

    I know about some of his experiences in Zimbabwe, but by no means all. And nothing of his experiences in South Africa. @safara, could you maybe enlarge on what you saw, witnessed and knew of? I'm aware it could run to half a book, but maybe you could list a bunch of bulletpoints. And we could easily create a new standalone thread for it if it seems to be a good idea. I think very many would be interested.

    Forgive me if your post is meant to start a completely different discussion, Bill. If it is a way of responding to the posts I,have made and the responses to those posts, I want to establish, once again, that my problem with the thread content is a lack of understanding of real systemic racism in the U.S.

    People asked repeatedly for a definition of it, and I have tried, apparently in vain, to provide an answer. It doesn't exist in all American systems. Quite the opposite, in many cases. That's the confusing part for many and that is probably where much of the problem lies.

    In Canada, our treatment of native people, is as bad or worse...(when nobody's looking). The middle class, generally white attitude is often that we are the most open, kindest, least bigoted people in the world. Our SJW's are some of the loudest people out there. But it amounts to nothing but window dressing when you read up on policing in this country.

    The problem is international.

  13. Link to Post #548
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    bunch of bulletpoints.

    Interesting thought. Shall sit down quietly this weekend....


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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)

    The problem is international.
    Yes, it is. Few Avalon members have lived or spent time in Africa, and quite a few North American members have never left the continent at all.

    So I asked safara if he might share his experiences and perspectives — which I know are pretty sobering — specifically because it's an international issue. Racism is racism, hate is hate, agendas are agendas, and humans are fallible humans — wherever all this might happen. Maybe we should wait to see what he shares with us.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote The middle class, generally white attitude
    Is it possible that the inequities of our justice/police system are more of a class problem than a racial issue?

    Examples abound of poor people of all races being treated abhorrently.
    The focus on BLM may even serve to incense the anger of the victimized poor of other races further, whose lives (in their opinion) still don't matter, thus they gravitate far right.

    Perhaps the inequities of our justice/police system would make a more logical, unifying focus in order to actually effect change?
    (TPTB are master manipulators when it comes to dividing the subclasses.)

    This example, not too long ago, involved lower-class children of all races:
    "We're all bozos on this bus"

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    Default Re: Racism

    The three strike law is a horrible waste of human life. It is an inappropriate response to a problem no one wants to actually address. The problem stems not from racism but from social stratification and lack of economic opportunity. These are the effects of systemic corruption. Address that and the three strike law would become inconsequential and even applicable.

    I know a bit about Canadian racism against aboriginals, and it too is a travesty. As is any racism, anywhere, now or in the past.

    The answer cannot be to burn bridges and cause division, the answer cannot adopt an accusatory undercurrent.

    The answer is to address the systemic corruption. To do that we must be united. The answer to the problem is solidarity. The down trodden can only be helped by reaching out with an open hand, not by striking out against any easy nearby target or by preferential treatment.

    Here's the thing, the people behind BLM and Antifa are rich beyond comprehension and even more powerful, and they are using their influence to stop the only movement that has a chance:

    We Are the 99.99%!

    It is not a joke. These last twenty years have been about giving a voice to every sidelined minority out there. There was a purpose behind it all. By giving these groups an international platform and astronomical funding a culture of the disadvantaged has bloomed in our midst. Combined with the 'Color' revolutions and massive immigration and refugee influx throughout the first world (an invasion by any other standards), also funded by these same mega-rich globalists, 'we the people' have been effectively neutralized.

    We have all been labelled and put in our respective camps, with enemies on all sides that hold opposing priorities and ideologies. And the corrupt system encourages the conflict, using fear porn to motivate our hatred and highlight our differences, while muzzling dissenting opinions, regardless of whose they are.

    It is not about dismissing the plight of any group. It is about adopting a wider viewpoint where solidarity is possible. Only in solidarity will all disadvantaged parties get fair treatment.

    But only once systemic corruption is addressed and brought out in the public square for honest scrutiny.

    The only credentials any one needs to have an opinion is to be of the human family. Everyone's experience counts, every viewpoint is valid. But the focus must be on the rampant systemic corruption that has encouraged this debacle in the first place.

    Let's stop slicing and dicing the motives of the human family.

    Let's stop the blame and let's Keep Our Eyes on the Prize.


    Take heart because together:

    We are the 99.99%!
    Last edited by Ernie Nemeth; 25th November 2020 at 22:56.
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    Default Re: Racism

    Sue/Ayt,

    I had this very discussion with one of my best friends, a Trump supporter who I dearly love, the other day. And we agreed that class plays a huge role, where the criminal justice system is concerned. But if you are a 'visible minority' your class is often being worn for all the world to see. If you live in a neighbourhood that is considered poor and powerless, you will be automatically identified as "the enemy" by militarized police forces. This is not a few rotten apples, it is rife within the forces themselves.

    In Canada, as I have explained we have militarized police forces with no ties to local communities, in lesser populated areas. The forces there have been heaping abuse like you wouldn't believe, on native people. My boyfriend, a few decades ago had a father who was very high up in the police forces and had worked up North for quite a few years. He said he loved his heavy flashlight because it was great for cracking aboriginal people's skulls. He also made me aware of the common practise of dealing with "drunk Indians" by driving them miles out of town and just dropping them on the highway so they had to walk home....in -20 F. Yeah. The media eventually covered that practice, a few years back. It was common and may have even been standard practice, officially condoned.

    The clip below shows some of this lovely behavior. This is what happens if you ask why you're being arrested, or why police are questioning your wife. What is the charge, what are we doing wrong? Lovely huh. Lovely men, possibly roided up, abusing people. It's common practice.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtcRlTfgbLU

    If you start 6 minutes in you'll get the action. Before that, just a lot of milling about. No drunken behavior, just people pushed to their emotional limit by harrassing cops.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)

    The problem is international.
    Yes, it is. Few Avalon members have lived or spent time in Africa, and quite a few North American members have never left the continent at all.

    So I asked safara if he might share his experiences and perspectives — which I know are pretty sobering — specifically because it's an international issue. Racism is racism, hate is hate, agendas are agendas, and humans are fallible humans — wherever all this might happen. Maybe we should wait to see what he shares with us.
    Racism and hatred plus power and the means to enforce that power is key and something you, for some reason don't address. it is the main issue. Human nature is fallible, it is also not beyond redemption if we are able to put ourselves in the shoes of others.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    The three strike law is a horrible waste of human life. It is an inappropriate response to a problem no one wants to actually address. The problem stems not from racism but from social stratification and lack of economic opportunity. These are the effects of systemic corruption. Address that and the three strike law would become inconsequential and even applicable.

    I know a bit about Canadian racism against aboriginals, and it too is a travesty. As is any racism, anywhere, now or in the past.

    The answer cannot be to burn bridges and cause division, the answer cannot adopt an accusatory undercurrent.

    The answer is to address the systemic corruption. To do that we must be united. The answer to the problem is solidarity. The down trodden can only be helped by reaching out with an open hand, not by striking out against any easy nearby target or by preferential treatment.

    Here's the thing, the people behind BLM and Antifa are rich beyond comprehension and even more powerful, and they are using their influence to stop the only movement that has a chance:

    We Are the 99.99%!

    It is not a joke. These last twenty years have been about giving a voice to every sidelined minority out there. There was a purpose behind it all. By giving these groups an international platform and astronomical funding a culture of the disadvantaged has bloomed in our midst. Combined with the 'Color' revolutions and massive immigration and refugee influx throughout the first world (an invasion by any other standards), also funded by these same mega-rich globalists, 'we the people' have been effectively neutralized.

    We have all been labelled and put in our respective camps, with enemies on all sides that hold opposing priorities and ideologies. And the corrupt system encourages the conflict, using fear porn to motivate our hatred and highlight our differences, while muzzling dissenting opinions, regardless of whose they are.

    It is not about dismissing the plight of any group. It is about adopting a wider viewpoint where solidarity is possible. Only in solidarity will all disadvantaged parties get fair treatment.

    But only once systemic corruption is addressed and brought out in the public square for honest scrutiny.

    The only credentials any one needs to have an opinion is to be of the human family. Everyone's experience counts, every viewpoint is valid. But the focus must be on the rampant systemic corruption that has encouraged this debacle in the first place.

    Let's stop slicing and dicing the motives of the human family.

    Let's stop the blame and let's Keep Our Eyes on the Prize.


    Take heart because together:

    We are the 99.99%!
    Ernie, I agree. The misunderstandings have a lot to do with this really weird schism, in Canada, anyway. People go freaking hysterical and corporations hop on board some really absurd issues involving race and gender issues, that have made me feel, "well what about white people? Like, are we chopped liver?" It is unfair much of the time, pretty crazy and people involved in that mentality get lost in a maze of victim mentality.

    Meanwhile native people are being driven miles out of town and freeze to death walking home. It's insane.

    Black Lives Matter is immediately hijacked by people who have ulterior motives and make a murky mess out of something as simple as honoring the hardships poor blacks. True.

    So, I think that we end up conversing, arguing at cross purposes, much of the time. I am so reassured and delighted that we are basically on the same page, Ernie. Sometimes I feel like screaming because I feel so so misunderstood here.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Racial issues are often used to try to define (and distract from) what are in actuality class issues.

    But, for the BLM vs ALM sloganeering, how about a we say All Black Lives Matter? The fact that frequently more black people are killed in Chicago, in one weekend, than are killed by police while unarmed in one year, seems to give the lie to the purported purpose of BLM.

    Their stated intention of defunding the police has caused significant harm to minority communities where this idea has taken hold, as without the presence of law enforcement the criminals run amok and it is the good people in such communities who suffer so SJWs and the like can feel good about themselves from their ivory towers. Check the statistics for any major city that has adopted this ideology to any extent, the results are often immediate with their application.

    Any unwarranted violence on the part of law enforcement is a serious issue that we should all be concerned with. But, on the flipside of that, we have been gaslit by the media since May with instance after instance of black men being shot, and when the dust settles it turns out that they were fighting with the police, which will get you shot no matter who you happen to be.

    Police need more funding, more oversight, MORE TRAINING, and public sector unions are a whole issue of their own. But, the bigger issue is a class issue, and economic issue.

    Poor people are killed more, are arrested and imprisoned more, are more violent, more drug addicted, and on and on and on, and opportunity is what is lacking in every part of this country, yet some people are raised to have the character to do the best they can, whereas others are raised on the streets.

    Is their racial disparity? That depends on how you cook the numbers, and where you look. Living in the poorest state in the US, I can point to many people and many places where it just sucks to be, whites and blacks (and asian, hispanic, etc) all just barely getting by together or seperate.

    Broad brush strokes do not help in describing any complex societal situation, but that is all we are allowed to have in these discussions, by design. Let us leave off who's ancestors were the most oppressed, and instead start taking an honest assessment of where people are right now, and see where we can get from there.
    Last edited by PurpleLama; 25th November 2020 at 23:33.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)

    The problem is international.
    Yes, it is. Few Avalon members have lived or spent time in Africa, and quite a few North American members have never left the continent at all.

    So I asked safara if he might share his experiences and perspectives — which I know are pretty sobering — specifically because it's an international issue. Racism is racism, hate is hate, agendas are agendas, and humans are fallible humans — wherever all this might happen. Maybe we should wait to see what he shares with us.
    Racism and hatred plus power and the means to enforce that power is key and something you, for some reason don't address. it is the main issue. Human nature is fallible, it is also not beyond redemption if we are able to put ourselves in the shoes of others.
    I profoundly disagree. Racism is most entrenched where people are the most powerless. The powerful don't need or care to know your ethnicity to piss on your head and tell you it is raining.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Yes, Purple Llama. I agree with much of your post too. Some people do become professional victims and there is a whole industry devoted to that. Many movements get totally side tracked by self interested power hungry people. Same with unions. Great idea until organized crime moved in. I'm thinking Teamsters.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by PurpleLama (here)
    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)

    The problem is international.
    Yes, it is. Few Avalon members have lived or spent time in Africa, and quite a few North American members have never left the continent at all.

    So I asked safara if he might share his experiences and perspectives — which I know are pretty sobering — specifically because it's an international issue. Racism is racism, hate is hate, agendas are agendas, and humans are fallible humans — wherever all this might happen. Maybe we should wait to see what he shares with us.
    Racism and hatred plus power and the means to enforce that power is key and something you, for some reason don't address. it is the main issue. Human nature is fallible, it is also not beyond redemption if we are able to put ourselves in the shoes of others.
    I profoundly disagree. Racism is most entrenched where people are the most powerless. The powerful don't need or care to know your ethnicity to piss on your head and tell you it is raining.
    I am speaking of the criminal justice system, where systematic racism occurs, PLlama. That requires power to enforce. I agree that they need more not less funding and plenty more training. Also independent ombudsmen to investigate police criminal activity would help. These are all structural issues that should have been dealt with years ago.

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  32. Link to Post #559
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Yes, Purple Llama. I agree with much of your post too. Some people do become professional victims and there is a whole industry devoted to that. Many movements get totally side tracked by self interested power hungry people. Same with unions. Great idea until organized crime moved in. I'm thinking Teamsters.
    The grifting is a huge issue. Many people who make the most noise seem to actually accomplish very little for the communities they advocate in favor of, all the while profiting for themselves.

    Did you actually watch the Dark Horse episode they posted above? It is really quite exellent, and covers a lot of the conversation we should be having instead of couching the conversation in the latest woke fashion. I have become a fan of Chloe Valdary since I first saw her live in that episode. Her Theory of Enchantment is worth looking into, and a positive replacement for CRT in diversity training and such.

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    Default Re: Racism

    From Time Magazine:

    When Joyce Echaquan, a 37-year-old Indigenous Canadian woman, began experiencing stomach pains, she checked herself into a hospital in Joliette, Quebec. But she did not get the help she needed. Instead, hospital staff told Echaquan she was stupid, only good for sex, and that she would be better off dead.

    Screaming and crying out in pain, Echaquan began live-streaming on Facebook. In the video, which has since gone viral, Echaquan says in her native language that she is worried doctors had given her too much morphine, which her family says she was allergic to. “You made some bad choices, my dear,” a hospital staff member can be heard saying in the background. “What are your children going to think, seeing you like this
    ?”

    https://time.com/5898422/joyce-echaq...otests-canada/

    It is reaalllly bad in this country. Really bad.

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