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  1. Link to Post #581
    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Seems to me that much of the debate surrounding racism is kinda circular. It seems to begin at one point on the curve with slavery lets say, and ends/merges with what's being called "systemic racism". It just goes in a loop.

    So you can pick any point on the loop, I suppose, and begin there. Jess for example is emphasizing the prison system at the moment. I s'pose I could argue that blacks commit a disproportional amount of crime and that's why they find themselves in prison more than whites. Jess would likely counter that argument with something, and then I'd counter her argument, and so on and so forth. We'd both identify causes for the phenomena we're seeing in the world today, and the causes for those causes, and the causes for those causes, and so forth.

    In other words, we'd work backwards and arrive at slavery most likely. And then I suppose we could even go further back. I might point out that Africans sold their own into slavery, and Jess might argue that this is no justification for having slaves, and so on and so forth.

    Or, instead of beginning with the results and working backwards identifying causes, we could start at slavery and work forward and end at "systemic racism"...debating each step of the way about what happened and why and who was mostly to blame.

    My issue with the doctrine of CRT and by extension "systemic racism" is that it aims to keep us stuck in that loop, even as it pretends to be attempting to get us out of it. It's regressive. CRT cloaks itself in words than sound harmonious(equity, inclusivity, diversity) but are really designed to cause more divisiveness.

    "Systemic racism" is like "the war on terror". It's an endless conflict with abstract enemies ("whiteness", "unconscious bias") with murky aims that goes on perpetually...and you never quite know if you're winning or losing, or are even close to the end of it. "The work", we are told, "never ends" (A question I've always wondered is: if the work "never ends" as the CRT people say, why even attempt to "root out systemic racism" in the first place) And no matter how dedicated you are, you will never escape your "whiteness"; in fact if you are too dedicated you might be trying to position yourself as a "good white", and that's no good of course. But if you don't work hard enough you're actively complicit in "white supremacy", and will likely get cancelled or lose your job or some such thing. If you're silent, that's bad ("silence is violence") but if you speak up you'll be told to shut the f#ck up and know your place. It's designed precisely to perpetuate itself, not resolve anything.

    It's all based on the premise that all white people are racist. And if you resist that idea, it's just more proof that you are racist ("white frailty"). It's a circular argument that's loaded with all kinds of catch 22's, double binds, and kafka traps. In other words, it's totally incoherent.

    So, I think everyone here on Avalon is united against racism, but not under the banner of BLM or notions of "systemic racism". It will never, ever happen with me. Not only will I die on that hill, I will reincarnate 100 billion more times and die all 100 billion times on that bloody hill in the name of it.

    "Systemic" has become kind of a tofu word in that it tends to mean whatever the user wants it to mean in the moment and can be blended with just about anything to sound forceful and virtuous. But it's really just another postmodern irritation. I reckon 95% of the people using it have no idea what it means.

    "Systemic racism" is vague and muddy and does not lend itself to facts or science or statistics. It can't be quantified in any way.. but not only are we constantly asked to accept it's presence by virtue signaling SJW's, it is demanded we change our entire world view as a result. "White folks are evil, just trust us. Oh, and the remedy? Critical Race Theory of course!"

    No thanks.

    For the longest time we were working not to see color, and we were making progress. (Contrary to popular opinion, the U.S. has never been less racist!) Now the mantra is: see color everywhere and in every little thing you do... which is straight out of the KKK playbook actually.

    Again, no thanks.

    As far as "otherizing" SJW's: "otherizing" is all SJW's do! All they do is label people transphobes, homophobes, racists, etc...with very little justification to do so in most cases.
    Last edited by Mike; 26th November 2020 at 08:58.

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  3. Link to Post #582
    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)

    Well, to be honest, I haven't felt heard by you, nor have others. I feel this issue should have been approached differently by you. So I am angry with you. That's all.
    Yes, you are! But maybe you might focus your anger on those who really are racist. (And there are none here on Avalon.)

    Although you visited the thread, you may have forgotten that I started this topic...
    ...as well as THIS Racism thread!

    And you were kind enough to thank this photo I posted on the All Lives Matter thread.



    You may also have forgotten that in my opening post there I wrote: (thanked by 81 members)

    ~~~
    Of course, black lives matter. (And I'm NOT going to put that in Title Case.)

    Because white lives matter, too.

    So do the lives of
    • The domestically abused
    • Abused children
    • Native Americans (I wonder what they think about all this?)
    • The Uyghurs, a million of them in China's "re-education camps"
    • Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh (a million of them, too)
    • The San Bushmen, who've been displaced from the Kalahari desert where they had lived for 40,000 years
    • The Australian Aborigines, and the New Zealand Maoris
    • All the poorest people in the world who live on less than $1 a day
    • The indigenous tribes in the Amazon rain forest
    • Julian Assange (and 1001 other political prisoners whose names we may never know)
    • Everyone reading this.
    ~~~
    • Black lives Matter — the movement — is toxic, hate-filled, violent, divisive and racist. I will not support it.
    • "All Lives Matter" isn't a movement. It's a reminder.

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  5. Link to Post #583
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)

    Well, to be honest, I haven't felt heard by you, nor have others. I feel this issue should have been approached differently by you. So I am angry with you. That's all.
    Yes, you are! But maybe you might focus your anger on those who really are racist. (And there are none here on Avalon.)

    Although you visited the thread, you may have forgotten that I started this topic...
    ...as well as THIS Racism thread!

    And you were kind enough to thank this photo I posted on the All Lives Matter thread.



    You may also have forgotten that in my opening post there I wrote: (thanked by 81 members)

    ~~~
    Of course, black lives matter. (And I'm NOT going to put that in Title Case.)

    Because white lives matter, too.

    So do the lives of
    • The domestically abused
    • Abused children
    • Native Americans (I wonder what they think about all this?)
    • The Uyghurs, a million of them in China's "re-education camps"
    • Rohingya refugees in Bangladesh (a million of them, too)
    • The San Bushmen, who've been displaced from the Kalahari desert where they had lived for 40,000 years
    • The Australian Aborigines, and the New Zealand Maoris
    • All the poorest people in the world who live on less than $1 a day
    • The indigenous tribes in the Amazon rain forest
    • Julian Assange (and 1001 other political prisoners whose names we may never know)
    • Everyone reading this.
    ~~~
    • Black lives Matter — the movement — is toxic, hate-filled, violent, divisive and racist. I will not support it.
    • "All Lives Matter" isn't a movement. It's a reminder.
    I apologize for having to break the lurk but I just wanted to add:

    If you truly think ALl lives matter then I expect that you also are for:

    Medicare for All
    Universal Basic Food programs
    Labor being represented on Boards of Companies
    Ending homelessness by giving people a way out of it(ie free housing for all)

    Medical problems kills a bunch of americans.
    Malnutrition kills many americans and make them more vulnerable to disease.
    Not being properly compensated for the labor that makes their companies big profits.
    People die on the streets.

    If all the People saying "All Lives matter" were at the same time also pushing the beliefs like I just described, then I might take the point of view seriously.

    If you are pro the current system(whatever you want to call it) and are not calling for DRASTIC reform of our society, then all lives do not actually matter, just the capital class that benefits from the status quo. Bezos has seen his wealth drastically increase, the stock market is up meanwhile homelessness is on the rise and people line up for Food banks. Where is the "all lives matter" concern for all these people?

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  7. Link to Post #584
    United States Moderator Sue (Ayt)'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Praxis (here)
    I apologize for having to break the lurk but I just wanted to add:

    If you truly think ALl lives matter then I expect that you also are for:

    Medicare for All
    Universal Basic Food programs
    Labor being represented on Boards of Companies
    Ending homelessness by giving people a way out of it(ie free housing for all)

    Medical problems kills a bunch of americans.
    Malnutrition kills many americans and make them more vulnerable to disease.
    Not being properly compensated for the labor that makes their companies big profits.
    People die on the streets.

    If all the People saying "All Lives matter" were at the same time also pushing the beliefs like I just described, then I might take the point of view seriously.

    If you are pro the current system(whatever you want to call it) and are not calling for DRASTIC reform of our society, then all lives do not actually matter, just the capital class that benefits from the status quo. Bezos has seen his wealth drastically increase, the stock market is up meanwhile homelessness is on the rise and people line up for Food banks. Where is the "all lives matter" concern for all these people?
    Glad to see you here, Praxis.
    Thinking about your points, I think many of us can agree that drastic reform is needed, but we have many different ideas on how this can/should come about.

    1. Medicare for all? As it stands, medicare rather sucks and is draining the healthcare system. A solution would have to go far beyond just suddenly extending medicare to all. The entire healthcare system and pharma industry needs an overhaul first.
    2. Universal Basic Food - Again, the "food" that would likely be universally available to all as it stands now would likely serve to depopulate even faster.
    3. Labor represented on boards - That sounds like a good call, imo, unless someone can point out factors I have overlooked?
    4. Free housing for all - Much thought would be needed to implement that one. Free "Housing" without care and maintenance can easily devolve into cesspools. "Labor camps" could fit the "free" description too.

    The whole system, as it stands, would have to be totally morphed to humanely accomplish these ideals. I think there is a lot of fear around the possibility of idealists rushing into these goals without adequate forethought, with the result being a drastically lower quality of life for most.

    Do you trust the current leaders that are spouting these ideals? Does it not feel that they just might have an ulterior agenda, judging by their own hypocritical actions?
    "We're all bozos on this bus"

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  9. Link to Post #585
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Seems to me that much of the debate surrounding racism is kinda circular. It seems to begin at one point on the curve with slavery lets say, and ends/merges with what's being called "systemic racism". It just goes in a loop.

    So you can pick any point on the loop, I suppose, and begin there. Jess for example is emphasizing the prison system at the moment. I s'pose I could argue that blacks commit a disproportional amount of crime and that's why they find themselves in prison more than whites. Jess would likely counter that argument with something, and then I'd counter her argument, and so on and so forth. We'd both identify causes for the phenomena we're seeing in the world today, and the causes for those causes, and the causes for those causes, and so forth.

    In other words, we'd work backwards and arrive at slavery most likely. And then I suppose we could even go further back. I might point out that Africans sold their own into slavery, and Jess might argue that this is no justification for having slaves, and so on and so forth.

    Or, instead of beginning with the results and working backwards identifying causes, we could start at slavery and work forward and end at "systemic racism"...debating each step of the way about what happened and why and who was mostly to blame.

    My issue with the doctrine of CRT and by extension "systemic racism" is that it aims to keep us stuck in that loop, even as it pretends to be attempting to get us out of it. It's regressive. CRT cloaks itself in words than sound harmonious(equity, inclusivity, diversity) but are really designed to cause more divisiveness.

    "Systemic racism" is like "the war on terror". It's an endless conflict with abstract enemies ("whiteness", "unconscious bias") with murky aims that goes on perpetually...and you never quite know if you're winning or losing, or are even close to the end of it. "The work", we are told, "never ends" (A question I've always wondered is: if the work "never ends" as the CRT people say, why even attempt to "root out systemic racism" in the first place) And no matter how dedicated you are, you will never escape your "whiteness"; in fact if you are too dedicated you might be trying to position yourself as a "good white", and that's no good of course. But if you don't work hard enough you're actively complicit in "white supremacy", and will likely get cancelled or lose your job or some such thing. If you're silent, that's bad ("silence is violence") but if you speak up you'll be told to shut the f#ck up and know your place. It's designed precisely to perpetuate itself, not resolve anything.

    It's all based on the premise that all white people are racist. And if you resist that idea, it's just more proof that you are racist ("white frailty"). It's a circular argument that's loaded with all kinds of catch 22's, double binds, and kafka traps. In other words, it's totally incoherent.

    So, I think everyone here on Avalon is united against racism, but not under the banner of BLM or notions of "systemic racism". It will never, ever happen with me. Not only will I die on that hill, I will reincarnate 100 billion more times and die all 100 billion times on that bloody hill in the name of it.

    "Systemic" has become kind of a tofu word in that it tends to mean whatever the user wants it to mean in the moment and can be blended with just about anything to sound forceful and virtuous. But it's really just another postmodern irritation. I reckon 95% of the people using it have no idea what it means.

    "Systemic racism" is vague and muddy and does not lend itself to facts or science or statistics. It can't be quantified in any way.. but not only are we constantly asked to accept it's presence by virtue signaling SJW's, it is demanded we change our entire world view as a result. "White folks are evil, just trust us. Oh, and the remedy? Critical Race Theory of course!"

    No thanks.

    For the longest time we were working not to see color, and we were making progress. (Contrary to popular opinion, the U.S. has never been less racist!) Now the mantra is: see color everywhere and in every little thing you do... which is straight out of the KKK playbook actually.

    Again, no thanks.

    As far as "otherizing" SJW's: "otherizing" is all SJW's do! All they do is label people transphobes, homophobes, racists, etc...with very little justification to do so in most cases.
    Mike,

    Everything you describe can be applied to Canada, as well. In most respects, we have never been less racist. Most systems within the greater system bend over backwards to the point of absurdity to include everybody. Corporation cater to SJW's.

    This is why it is beyond strange that we have a national police force that has condoned unwarranted violence....still.... and a prison system that isn't in compliance with basic UN standards.

    You probably haven't read all that I've written and can't say I blame you.

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  11. Link to Post #586
    United States Moderator Chris Gilbert's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Praxis (here)

    If you truly think ALl lives matter then I expect that you also are for:

    Medicare for All
    Universal Basic Food programs
    Labor being represented on Boards of Companies
    Ending homelessness by giving people a way out of it(ie free housing for all)
    Many of those changes I do want in some form. I used to subscribe more to the economic libertarian ideas that are common on this site and other conspiracy discussions, but nowadays I see them largely as a dead end. If anything I've grown more open-minded to FDR style New Deal changes. I think that too that many libertarian/independent leaning Americans increasingly do not at all understand the perspectives of minorities, younger generations or foreign cultures, and when it comes to the human toll on the environment, they have their heads in the sand.

    Despite that however, my belief in civil liberties has only strengthened, and thus I'm quite averse to many aspects of critical theory. For that reason, I'm skeptical of any movement to correct inequalities that relies on a top-down approach, without have a bedrock of decentralized energy abundance to build off of.

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  13. Link to Post #587
    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Seems to me that much of the debate surrounding racism is kinda circular. It seems to begin at one point on the curve with slavery lets say, and ends/merges with what's being called "systemic racism". It just goes in a loop.

    So you can pick any point on the loop, I suppose, and begin there. Jess for example is emphasizing the prison system at the moment. I s'pose I could argue that blacks commit a disproportional amount of crime and that's why they find themselves in prison more than whites. Jess would likely counter that argument with something, and then I'd counter her argument, and so on and so forth. We'd both identify causes for the phenomena we're seeing in the world today, and the causes for those causes, and the causes for those causes, and so forth.

    In other words, we'd work backwards and arrive at slavery most likely. And then I suppose we could even go further back. I might point out that Africans sold their own into slavery, and Jess might argue that this is no justification for having slaves, and so on and so forth.

    Or, instead of beginning with the results and working backwards identifying causes, we could start at slavery and work forward and end at "systemic racism"...debating each step of the way about what happened and why and who was mostly to blame.

    My issue with the doctrine of CRT and by extension "systemic racism" is that it aims to keep us stuck in that loop, even as it pretends to be attempting to get us out of it. It's regressive. CRT cloaks itself in words than sound harmonious(equity, inclusivity, diversity) but are really designed to cause more divisiveness.

    "Systemic racism" is like "the war on terror". It's an endless conflict with abstract enemies ("whiteness", "unconscious bias") with murky aims that goes on perpetually...and you never quite know if you're winning or losing, or are even close to the end of it. "The work", we are told, "never ends" (A question I've always wondered is: if the work "never ends" as the CRT people say, why even attempt to "root out systemic racism" in the first place) And no matter how dedicated you are, you will never escape your "whiteness"; in fact if you are too dedicated you might be trying to position yourself as a "good white", and that's no good of course. But if you don't work hard enough you're actively complicit in "white supremacy", and will likely get cancelled or lose your job or some such thing. If you're silent, that's bad ("silence is violence") but if you speak up you'll be told to shut the f#ck up and know your place. It's designed precisely to perpetuate itself, not resolve anything.

    It's all based on the premise that all white people are racist. And if you resist that idea, it's just more proof that you are racist ("white frailty"). It's a circular argument that's loaded with all kinds of catch 22's, double binds, and kafka traps. In other words, it's totally incoherent.

    So, I think everyone here on Avalon is united against racism, but not under the banner of BLM or notions of "systemic racism". It will never, ever happen with me. Not only will I die on that hill, I will reincarnate 100 billion more times and die all 100 billion times on that bloody hill in the name of it.

    "Systemic" has become kind of a tofu word in that it tends to mean whatever the user wants it to mean in the moment and can be blended with just about anything to sound forceful and virtuous. But it's really just another postmodern irritation. I reckon 95% of the people using it have no idea what it means.

    "Systemic racism" is vague and muddy and does not lend itself to facts or science or statistics. It can't be quantified in any way.. but not only are we constantly asked to accept it's presence by virtue signaling SJW's, it is demanded we change our entire world view as a result. "White folks are evil, just trust us. Oh, and the remedy? Critical Race Theory of course!"

    No thanks.

    For the longest time we were working not to see color, and we were making progress. (Contrary to popular opinion, the U.S. has never been less racist!) Now the mantra is: see color everywhere and in every little thing you do... which is straight out of the KKK playbook actually.

    Again, no thanks.

    As far as "otherizing" SJW's: "otherizing" is all SJW's do! All they do is label people transphobes, homophobes, racists, etc...with very little justification to do so in most cases.
    Mike,

    Everything you describe can be applied to Canada, as well. In most respects, we have never been less racist. Most systems within the greater system bend over backwards to the point of absurdity to include everybody. Corporation cater to SJW's.

    This is why it is beyond strange that we have a national police force that has condoned unwarranted violence....still.... and a prison system that isn't in compliance with basic UN standards.

    You probably haven't read all that I've written and can't say I blame you.

    Ive read quite a bit of it! I think I've understood you for the most part all along but just look at a few things differently.

    We do disagree I think on the degree to which racism plays a role in police interactions. From the data I've seen, I do not believe there is "systemic racism" involved in policing. And I do not think police brutality is systemic. The data just doesn't suggest that.

    Now, as far as the prison systems and the courts, I will confess to having quite a bit to learn. I'm going to revisit your thread and read carefully everything you've posted, and do a good bit of thinking and research on it. You have my word, for what it's worth.
    Last edited by Mike; 26th November 2020 at 20:26.

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  15. Link to Post #588
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    Default Re: Racism

    Black lives Matter — the movement — is toxic, hate-filled, violent, divisive and racist. I will not support it. Bill Ryan

    Nobody is asking you to support some of their leaders. They are self serving. On the other hand, there are millions of black white and yellow people protesting under the loose banner of BLM who are a collection of individuals with diverse backgrounds, personalities, affinities. Not recognizing that reality ends up painting all those who are protesting police brutality with the same brush.

    When the greater public peruse the forum, see your posts about BLM they likely think they are a dog whistle for lack of acknowledgment of the real pain and suffering going on in the black community in America. When you respond back to criticism with posts about all the different ethnic groups in the world who are having a terrible time, and fail to even acknowledge the black community and police brutality in America, it isn't fair, imho.

    I feel through these posts that end up downplaying the specific suffering of blacks in America (through the prison system and police brutality) that you have created a winnowing process of members. PA has ended up being a forum without diversity of opinion, that relies too heavily on biased hate filled youtube videos.

    Quiet, gentler types just move on because they end up having to compete with a hostile individual with a bullhorn on youtube. The information presented is often not factual, overly emotional and often very biased. I am not going to outline every problem with social media, as you are likely aware.

    Believing youtube videos from questionable sources that downplay the seriousness of the racial issue in the U.S. is the flip side of the same coin as SJW videos that make the tiniest pettiest individual grievance, political. They are both highly divisive and full of hate engendering nonsense.

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  17. Link to Post #589
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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Seems to me that much of the debate surrounding racism is kinda circular. It seems to begin at one point on the curve with slavery lets say, and ends/merges with what's being called "systemic racism". It just goes in a loop.

    So you can pick any point on the loop, I suppose, and begin there. Jess for example is emphasizing the prison system at the moment. I s'pose I could argue that blacks commit a disproportional amount of crime and that's why they find themselves in prison more than whites. Jess would likely counter that argument with something, and then I'd counter her argument, and so on and so forth. We'd both identify causes for the phenomena we're seeing in the world today, and the causes for those causes, and the causes for those causes, and so forth.

    In other words, we'd work backwards and arrive at slavery most likely. And then I suppose we could even go further back. I might point out that Africans sold their own into slavery, and Jess might argue that this is no justification for having slaves, and so on and so forth.

    Or, instead of beginning with the results and working backwards identifying causes, we could start at slavery and work forward and end at "systemic racism"...debating each step of the way about what happened and why and who was mostly to blame.

    My issue with the doctrine of CRT and by extension "systemic racism" is that it aims to keep us stuck in that loop, even as it pretends to be attempting to get us out of it. It's regressive. CRT cloaks itself in words than sound harmonious(equity, inclusivity, diversity) but are really designed to cause more divisiveness.

    "Systemic racism" is like "the war on terror". It's an endless conflict with abstract enemies ("whiteness", "unconscious bias") with murky aims that goes on perpetually...and you never quite know if you're winning or losing, or are even close to the end of it. "The work", we are told, "never ends" (A question I've always wondered is: if the work "never ends" as the CRT people say, why even attempt to "root out systemic racism" in the first place) And no matter how dedicated you are, you will never escape your "whiteness"; in fact if you are too dedicated you might be trying to position yourself as a "good white", and that's no good of course. But if you don't work hard enough you're actively complicit in "white supremacy", and will likely get cancelled or lose your job or some such thing. If you're silent, that's bad ("silence is violence") but if you speak up you'll be told to shut the f#ck up and know your place. It's designed precisely to perpetuate itself, not resolve anything.

    It's all based on the premise that all white people are racist. And if you resist that idea, it's just more proof that you are racist ("white frailty"). It's a circular argument that's loaded with all kinds of catch 22's, double binds, and kafka traps. In other words, it's totally incoherent.

    So, I think everyone here on Avalon is united against racism, but not under the banner of BLM or notions of "systemic racism". It will never, ever happen with me. Not only will I die on that hill, I will reincarnate 100 billion more times and die all 100 billion times on that bloody hill in the name of it.

    "Systemic" has become kind of a tofu word in that it tends to mean whatever the user wants it to mean in the moment and can be blended with just about anything to sound forceful and virtuous. But it's really just another postmodern irritation. I reckon 95% of the people using it have no idea what it means.

    "Systemic racism" is vague and muddy and does not lend itself to facts or science or statistics. It can't be quantified in any way.. but not only are we constantly asked to accept it's presence by virtue signaling SJW's, it is demanded we change our entire world view as a result. "White folks are evil, just trust us. Oh, and the remedy? Critical Race Theory of course!"

    No thanks.

    For the longest time we were working not to see color, and we were making progress. (Contrary to popular opinion, the U.S. has never been less racist!) Now the mantra is: see color everywhere and in every little thing you do... which is straight out of the KKK playbook actually.

    Again, no thanks.

    As far as "otherizing" SJW's: "otherizing" is all SJW's do! All they do is label people transphobes, homophobes, racists, etc...with very little justification to do so in most cases.
    Mike,

    Everything you describe can be applied to Canada, as well. In most respects, we have never been less racist. Most systems within the greater system bend over backwards to the point of absurdity to include everybody. Corporation cater to SJW's.

    This is why it is beyond strange that we have a national police force that has condoned unwarranted violence....still.... and a prison system that isn't in compliance with basic UN standards.

    You probably haven't read all that I've written and can't say I blame you.

    Ive read quite a bit of it! I think I've understood you for the most part all along but just look a few things differently.

    We do disagree I think on the degree to which racism plays a role in police interactions. From the data I've seen, I do not believe there is "systemic racism" involved in policing. And I do not think police brutality is systemic. The data just doesn't suggest that.

    Now, as far as the prison systems and the courts, I will confess to having quite a bit to learn. I'm going to revisit your thread and read carefully everything you've posted, and do a good bit of thinking and research on it. You have my word, for what it's worth.
    The policing system in rural Canada is worse than the U.S, generally speaking. Thanks for your comments. I appreciate them all a great deal.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Praxis (here)

    If all the People saying "All Lives matter" were at the same time also pushing the beliefs like I just described, then I might take the point of view seriously.

    If you are pro the current system(whatever you want to call it) and are not calling for DRASTIC reform of our society, then all lives do not actually matter, just the capital class that benefits from the status quo. Bezos has seen his wealth drastically increase, the stock market is up meanwhile homelessness is on the rise and people line up for Food banks. Where is the "all lives matter" concern for all these people?
    The concern for all beings on this planet can be found in many posts and threads on Avalon. The thread Draw your sword, things are about to get real is dedicated to helping to create a new paradigm; one that loves and serves all and contains practical actions that everyone can participate in.


    For direct inspiration, Constances empowerment portal was created.

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    Default Re: Racism

    In my country there are no people of any color, and if it were, it is not as if we were two different species, we look the same and we all have 10 fingers and two hands to be able to hug, above all the doctrine, whatever it is, and above all suffering.

    We are human.
    Many tears flowed until we humans waited for everything to get better, but apparently a few or many do not understand until we completely lose hope.

    I know that unconditional love is the biggest paradox possible, but we are all here and we all see that it is morning dew on the grass, we all share the same rays of sunshine, we all have sad or happy moments.
    It is a very delicate matter to be addressed in words, but if we have a pure heart for any kind of life, then we also have the freedom to say honestly "I feel love for all that is alive!"
    We are individuals, beautiful, powerfull, magical, creative beings, we are humans, everywhere we are just humans.
    We may need a "revolution of natural and pure humanity" that we all have acquired through our self-merit in altruism over the pure idea of ​​life, because it all begins with life.

    I know that some may not be able to fully understand what it means to appreciate the life of every living being, but I also know that many of us humans, if we see a child regardless of color, screaming in pain in the street we can not be careless and we will definitely jump immediately in order to help him.
    In fact I am here for the first and last time, only as a kind of reminder that for us, maybe, "all lives matter" has a positive and optimal relevance for the unique human race.
    Every human is a question asked to the Spirit of the Universe,again and again,because every human is an endless row of humans and in all humans together dwelling the Great Human Spirit.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by Chris Gilbert (here)
    Quote Posted by Praxis (here)

    If you truly think ALl lives matter then I expect that you also are for:

    Medicare for All
    Universal Basic Food programs
    Labor being represented on Boards of Companies
    Ending homelessness by giving people a way out of it(ie free housing for all)
    Many of those changes I do want in some form. I used to subscribe more to the economic libertarian ideas that are common on this site and other conspiracy discussions, but nowadays I see them largely as a dead end. If anything I've grown more open-minded to FDR style New Deal changes. I think that too that many libertarian/independent leaning Americans increasingly do not at all understand the perspectives of minorities, younger generations or foreign cultures, and when it comes to the human toll on the environment, they have their heads in the sand.

    Despite that however, my belief in civil liberties has only strengthened, and thus I'm quite averse to many aspects of critical theory. For that reason, I'm skeptical of any movement to correct inequalities that relies on a top-down approach, without have a bedrock of decentralized energy abundance to build off of.
    Chris, I don't even know what Critical Theory is. Mike has mentioned it several times, so I figure that it is like the SJW bible. And hey, you seem to have blown past a lot of the b.s and arrived at the conclusion that the governing war mongering duopoly never want anybody to consider. Democratic socialism, and by that I mean everything on the list that Praxis has outlined, appears to be the only way out. And heavy heavy emphasis on the 'democratic' part with a lot of citizen involvement and plenty of checks and balances.

    Much of the problem of race is grounded in class, in poverty as Sue/Ayt posted. There is this underlying tension, all the time...for everybody. I lived in the States for a few years, and it was bad then. I don't imagine it's gotten anything but much worse.

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    Last edited by Constance; 26th November 2020 at 21:05. Reason: added extra videos

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    Default Re: Racism

    Thanks Constance, I will read up on it. I am avoiding youtube. If CRT is what I think it is, the videos will annoy me too much to watch.

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    Default Re: Racism

    My father was racist, he didn't like strangers. He was a farmer who loved the land not out of conviction but not having to be an only child. He was a beekeeper, an occasional hunter when he spotted a rabbit, he knew how to flush him out of his burrow. He kept these sheep and an intellectual on his own when a stranger was invited to the house. In my youth, I was like him, no questions asked, it came from my education. We lived near a military barracks, there were from Reunion Island, Tahiti, Guadeloupe doing their military service, maybe my father's racism came from there? I can think in the United States it is difficult to conceive of racism even if it can exist between black and white, even if the discrimination is still there. There is the before and there is the after. Slavery has not been abolished, we are still someone's slave in this world. To come back to racism, France within 50 years, maybe less, will have lost its original identity, you know the Gallic, the French of deep France, that of my father, of our ancestors, of our history, like that of America. It is the flow of evolution that is at issue and certainly not the racism which I think is in the history of mankind, but all countries are not equal in diversity ... 🙏
    Last edited by Lunesoleil; 26th November 2020 at 21:51.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Hi. Listen Gemma,

    I am very very sorry I painted with such a broad brush last night. I upset you and that wasn't fair. You are obviously a lovely person who cares deeply and is trying to get to the truth. A lot gets lost in translation.

    Anyway, I figure that if we were to know the specifics of our lives we would be friends. I would understand why you think the way you do and vice versa. And being spit on for no reason, as a child, would be a formative experience for sure!

    The reason I asked you why you were addressing me as if I wasn't there is because in your initial post to me, I didn't process the first line correctly, just the first few words. I have optical damage from glaucoma and it fell in my blind spot. So that must have sounded pretty unhinged.

    Take care,

    Autumn

    Hey Autumn

    Thanks. I agree that in person we would probably have some really great conversations and a lot of laughs.

    And as much as I am very happy to read your message and very grateful to you for sending it I'm kinda disappointed it had to come via PM instead of being posted publically in the thread.

    I think it's really helpful for members to see no hard feelings between people after a sticky exchange on a highly charged topic, as well as seeing a bit more of our true selves.

    So I'd like to ask if you are willing to post your PM on the thread. I would then be able to respond publically to your grace in an equally graceful way.

    I think it would serve the forum as an important "educational moment of closure" if you like, that could potentially help others in future entanglements.

    Kind regards
    Gemma

    And sorry to hear of your visual problems - a bummer for sure.


    Here it is, Gemma!

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    Default Re: Racism

    Awesome Autumn.  Thank you so much for sharing our PM's and for your kind words.

    I knew we were sitting on the edge of crossing the line in forum standards when we butted heads the other day so I'd also like to apologize to the mods for putting them through a moment or two of having to hold their breath as we nutted it out.  Thanks Mods for calling it when you did.

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    Default Re: Racism

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Thanks Constance, I will read up on it. I am avoiding youtube. If CRT is what I think it is, the videos will annoy me too much to watch.
    You really have to look into it, as it is rapidly becoming pervasive, especially in the corporate environment.

    I have not read this, but I track on a lot of the articles and writings of Lindsay and Pluckrose, and by all accounts this is an excellent primer: Cynical Theories



    Lindsay is hilarious, and this interview is very worthwhile to watch/listen.
    Last edited by PurpleLama; 26th November 2020 at 23:59.
    God bless the Fae
    God bless Me

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    Default Re: Racism

    PLlama, I know all about it. I just didn't know that it was called CRT. I can't stand it. It politicizes what should remain personal. People shouldn't be persecuted for being different, but neither should the entire world bend, in a very public way, to the neuroses and will to power of those who misuse the rubric of "individual rights, human rights, etc..."

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    Default Re: Racism

    I found this interview fascinating for so many reasons. Robert Sapolsky never fails to bring insight to the table.

    A few snippets...

    On Racism

    Q: As a neurobiologist, what do you regard as viable solutions to the issue of racism?

    A: Well, there are slight hints of things to be optimistic about from the standpoint of neurobiology. For instance, if you put a white American in a brain scanner, and you quickly flash up a series of pictures of faces on a screen, and you flash up the face of an African-American person, in approximately seventy-five percent of white people, there’s an activation of the amygdala, which is a part of the brain that has to do with fear and anxiety and aggression. Oh, my god! This is fascinating and so depressing at the same time.

    Also, the part of the brain that processes “faces” (called the fusiform cortex) does not activate as much in those seventy-five percent of white people looking at a black face, because it doesn’t count as “a face” as much. It’s not as much of a person. So, oh my God, this is so depressing and so horrible!

    But wait a second, what about the twenty-five percent of the people where that does not happen? The answer is those are white people who grew up with close friends who are African-American. Those are people who had a romantic relationship with an African-American somewhere along the way. In another word, it is not inevitable but some of the best solutions for that start when you’re two years old.


    On his book

    Q: Now, I also want to talk about your book, “Behave: The Biology of Humans at Our Best and Worst”. In your book, you argue that “knowing a judge’s opinions about Plato, Nietzsche, Rawls,” and other philosophers “gives you less predictive power about her judicial decisions than knowing if she’s hungry.” Could you elaborate what that means?

    A: Yeah, it’s wonderful! I love that finding – that finding and the finding that if you put someone in a room that smells bad, people become more politically conservative about social issues. I tell those findings to an audience and you could hear people say, “Whoa!” Or whenever I’m speaking to law students and I tell that one about judges, you can just hear people laughing a little bit in the audience and saying, “Oh, my God! What is wrong with us?”

    Q: So, would you explain what happens in the study?

    A: Okay. In this study, the researchers looked at parole boards. A parole board is a panel of people who decide whether a prisoner has behaved well enough that they should be released early. So, it was a study looking at parole board judges’ decisions, and it showed that the single biggest predictor of whether a prisoner was paroled or sent back to jail was how many hours it has been since the parole board judges had a MEAL. If you appeared before a judge right after they had a meal, you had a sixty-percent chance of being paroled. By three hours later, it was down to a zero-percent chance.

    And then you ask the judge afterward, “Wow! That’s interesting! You let this guy [pointing to the right] free two hours ago, but now you sent this guy [pointing to the left] back to jail. How come?” And they will talk to you about Aristotle and Plato. They’re not gonna say because I’m hungry. But the biology of it shows that that’s the case. When their blood sugar levels are low, people become less generous, they become less empathic, and they become likely to cheat when they’re playing an economic game. And why is this? Because the parts of your brain that have to make you do the harder thing when it is the right thing to do have a higher metabolic rate than other parts of your brain. In other words, they demand more energy.

    It takes energy to think twice about someone instead of just saying, “They’re rotten! Throw them back to jail.” Stopping and saying, “Well, let’s see. They grew up in a world that I never experienced. What was the world like for them? What is…” That takes more work! And that takes more brainpower in a very literal way. The frontal cortex, which is central for making you do the harder thing when the harder thing is the more difficult thing, needs more energy. Literally, your brain needs more energy to think about somebody else’s perspective on the world than thinking about your own.

    After the study was published, everybody came up with what they thought was a confound, saying, “Here’s why they did the statistics wrong.” However, it has completely held up as a finding.



    On polarization

    So, it takes a lot of work to do it right. One of the areas where it has been most studied is in summer camp programs for Palestinian and Israeli teenagers, where you bring them together and you try to do it right. You get them in a neutral setting, and you give them something they all have as a shared goal. For instance, they’re brought to a place where they have no symbols – they cannot have flags or anything like that – then you show them this field full of boulders and rocks and weeds, and you say, “Okay, if you guys wanna work together like crazy for the next week to turn this into a football field, go for it. There you go. That’s the only way you’re gonna have a football field.” And then they work like crazy, and they work in teams together, which is the sort of thing that actually helps, and you show that when they leave at the end of these two weeks, some of them have had a change in their attitudes.

    They’ve been doing that for twenty years, and despite that occasional good news, what the studies have also shown is that no person who ever went to one of those groups on either side has become a leader of a peace group; next to no person on either side has stayed in touch with the person they became friends with; no person has caused other people to change their opinions. What you get instead is that the researchers come back to them one year later to ask them about the other side, and they say, “Oh, those people? They’re terrible! They’ve stolen our land,” or “They’re terrorists. They’re terrible, rotten people.” But then they say, “Oh, I knew this one guy though… He was a good guy. You know, they’re not all that way. You know, but there was this guy… I should email him to see how he’s doing,” and then they never do that. But the overall prejudice does not go away, and whatever changes there have been in your attitudes, you do not spread them to anybody else. So, it takes so much work. It takes years.

    The full article: Tehran times: Racism, inequality and conflict.

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