Racism

[neutronstar]

Posted by Mike (here)



I might call that an intellectual justification. And honestly, I'm tempted to agree with you!

But it still leaves my heart feeling unsettled somehow. It just doesnt end there for me.

I appreciate your take. Truly . We just see the issue a little differently is all. I predict we won't be the first to disagree in this thread

Well the initial question was "if any reparations should be made for past transgressions between one race of people and another?"

I took that to mean Americans paying back the Native Americans, sense that was the example. But what about the the fact that the Native Americans were warrior tribes doing that to each other, which they did. The American military was just much better at it. The Native American didn't see themselves as one race but each tribe was their own race so to speak.

It is what happens over and over again threw out history. The larger more powerful tribe concurs the less powerful.

What happens is by taking the position you are is your falling into the trap of associating yourself with the american tribe and you are feeling guilt for what your tribe has done to another. It is at the hart of racism. Your taking a side. It is like white shaming that is going on now. White privilege.

I'm am not being cold. I think what humans do to other humans now or in the past is really sad. I would much rather live in a world were it isn't so. But I am not going to play the race game and say I am a white man and I need to pay for the sins of the white men before me.

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by neutronstar (here)
I grew up in a small town in Iowa where there is not much diversity at all, and I see the racism there.

Okay... can you build on this thread, as an educational vehicle (hopefully!), and explain what you saw, what form it took, and why it was there? (And, importantly, why you call it or regard it as racism? (Maybe it was! But we can't tell, because we don't know what you're describing.)

You see, the word is loosely used... that's my thesis. What I'm really interested in is what the roots of it are, and why it's there — and if it's NOT racism, what is it really?

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by neutronstar (here)
I grew up in a small town in Iowa where there is not much diversity at all, and I see the racism there.

Okay... can you build on this thread, as an educational vehicle (hopefully!), and explain what you saw, what form it took, and why it was there? (And, importantly, why you call it or regard it as racism? (Maybe it was! But we can't tell, because we don't know what you're describing.)

You see, the word is loosely used... that's my thesis. What I'm really interested in is what the roots of it are, and why it's there — and if it's NOT racism, what is it really?

I can be more specific. Because here, In Ecuador, I'm in the cultural minority situation.

I'm a migrant, living in Ecuador. I'm not an Ecuadorian. I barely speak the language. This not my country. I really don't properly belong here, and I know that.

I like the local people, and I don't much like most of the Americans I see here. But I can feel the quiet, low-key, silent attitudes towards me... sometimes, in some places.

This isn't about race. No-one dislikes my white skin. Quite a few Ecuadorians have fairly white skin, too.

They just think I don't really belong here, and they disrespect (I believe) that I've not taken more trouble to learn the language. I think they see me (and the other Europeans and Americans) as a kind of economic migrant ... because it's cheap here. So we take advantage of that, and the truth is that we give very little back, indeed.

I'll say it again. This is not racism. But the locals are worried. They don't know, and are given no safeguards, where this is all going. I can feel it.

To put it even more bluntly: I'm here because I legally can be, but it's 100% entirely selfish.

It's all about me, and my safety, comfort, enjoyment, and personal well-being. I'm as friendly as I possibly can be to the local people (I live in a farming community, as one of the only gringos for miles). Some of them are really friendly back. Others literally look the other way. I can feel their thoughts.

Is this their racism? Not the way I understand it. They simply don't want me to be here.

Should I go home? Where's home? I don't have one. I have no family, anywhere. I might as well be a Syrian refugee.

If there were forums in Ecuador (and maybe there are! How would I know?), the local people might well be discussing, with some emotion, the problem of their country being overrun with Americanos. And they'd be entitled to.

At least, unlike in some other parts of the world, the migrants aren't bringing degrees of crime and abuse with them. But that doesn't stop the locals from being worried, and I'm part of the problem here: I'm certainly no part of any solution.

The local people's attitudes about this would not be racism. They're simply worried about the integrity of their country, and their culture.

Just as I was, when I lived in Britain, and went into that hairdresser's in Leicester... before I immediately turned round and instinctively walked out.

• https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1149826

[Mike]

Hi Bill,

Nice post there.

But referring to one of the last lines in your linked post: doesnt skin, religion and race all add up to culture? If not, what's the difference?

[neutronstar]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by neutronstar (here)
I grew up in a small town in Iowa where there is not much diversity at all, and I see the racism there.

Okay... can you build on this thread, as an educational vehicle (hopefully!), and explain what you saw, what form it took, and why it was there? (And, importantly, why you call it or regard it as racism? (Maybe it was! But we can't tell, because we don't know what you're describing.)

You see, the word is loosely used... that's my thesis. What I'm really interested in is what the roots of it are, and why it's there — and if it's NOT racism, what is it really?

I have a step father and bother in-law that refers to blacks as niggers and they don't speak very highly of Mexicans either. The town I grew up in has two large industries and both are slaughterhouses. Corporations have taken them over and have used up the native town people, (low wages, poor working conditions) so they advertise on the boarder and in inner cities and bring in the poor, and not the most productive of their race. They haven't been exposed to other cultures, and now they get exposed to the lower class of these races.

They don't see the more educated and productive members of other races. They also are plugged into the mainstream media. I think when people are in a area that doesn't have much diversity, they are more prone to believe what is presented to them on the TV. I also believe what I have already said, that we have evolved to fear outsiders, and other races or cultures we associate as outsiders.

My grandmother (now passes on) hated blacks and Mexicans. They were just no good criminals. She was a hard cor Iowa Hawkeye basketball fan. They had a guard by the name of BJ Armstrong (went on to play for the bulls in their title years he was black). She couldn't say enough good things about him though. That was so funny. She had never been exposed to other races, never new any. He was probably one of the first she ever really took notice of. Because he was really good and played for the Hawkeyes he was the cats mew. But she hated all other blacks. lol

[neutronstar]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by neutronstar (here)
I grew up in a small town in Iowa where there is not much diversity at all, and I see the racism there.

Okay... can you build on this thread, as an educational vehicle (hopefully!), and explain what you saw, what form it took, and why it was there? (And, importantly, why you call it or regard it as racism? (Maybe it was! But we can't tell, because we don't know what you're describing.)

You see, the word is loosely used... that's my thesis. What I'm really interested in is what the roots of it are, and why it's there — and if it's NOT racism, what is it really?

I can be more specific. Because here, In Ecuador, I'm in the cultural minority situation.

I'm a migrant, living in Ecuador. I'm not an Ecuadorian. I barely speak the language. This not my country. I really don't properly belong here, and I know that.

I like the local people, and I don't much like most of the Americans I see here. But I can feel the quiet, low-key, silent attitudes towards me... sometimes, in some places.

This isn't about race. No-one dislikes my white skin. Quite a few Ecuadorians have fairly white skin, too.

They just think I don't really belong here, and they disrespect (I believe) that I've not taken more trouble to learn the language. I think they see me (and the other Europeans and Americans) as a kind of economic migrant ... because it's cheap here. So we take advantage of that, and the truth is that we give very little back, indeed.

I'll say it again. This is not racism. But the locals are worried. They don't know, and are given no safeguards, where this is all going. I can feel it.

To put it even more bluntly: I'm here because I legally can be, but it's 100% entirely selfish.

It's all about me, and my safety, comfort, enjoyment, and personal well-being. I'm as friendly as I possibly can be to the local people (I live in a farming community, as one of the only gringos for miles). Some of them are really friendly back. Others literally look the other way. I can feel their thoughts.

Is this their racism? Not the way I understand it. They simply don't want me to be here.

Should I go home? Where's home? I don't have one. I have no family, anywhere. I might as well be a Syrian refugee.

If there were forums in Ecuador (and maybe there are! How would I know?), the local people might well be discussing, with some emotion, the problem of their country being overrun with Americanos. And they'd be entitled to.

At least, unlike in some other parts of the world, the migrants aren't bringing degrees of crime and abuse with them. But that doesn't stop the locals from being worried, and I'm part of the problem here: I'm certainly no part of any solution.

The local people's attitudes about this would not be racism. They're simply worried about the integrity of their country, and their culture.

Just as I was, when I lived in Britain, and went into that hairdresser's in Leicester... before I immediately turned round and instinctively walked out.

• https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1149826

You are feeling what other minorities feel when they are in a community that is small with little diversity. We fear what we don't understand, we don't understand outsiders. Many people in the US don't like the fact that people come to this country and don't try to learn the language. I understand that because it feeds the misunderstanding.

They see you as an outsider and always will if you can't talk to them. I like other cultures, but when they don't speak English they are strangers and always will be.

If you are looking for advice all I could say is learn their language.

[Mike]

Oh man, Neutronstar you just reminded me of something...

My Grampa on my Mom's side was sick and wheelchair bound at the end of his life. I went to visit him in the nursing home one day. I waited in his room until a kind black gentleman brought him back from a walk.

The black man walked out, and gesturing towards him my gramps said "that's Leon". And as if to allay some fear he imagined I might have, he added "don't worry, he's a good nig*er Michael!"

And I'll just flat out admit right here that I laughed out loud. I couldn't help it. It just came out of me. It was visceral, like a bark almost. Yes, it's a horrifying comment. But It was wrapped in such a hopelessly sad innocence and ignorance that one couldn't help but react that way. I mean, he *really* thought he was giving Leon a compliment. He had *no idea* that what he'd just said was a horrible thing. The juxtaposition was so absurd that it kind of entered the arena of humor.

I hope I haven't horrified anybody. For the record, I've told my sister's boyfriend that story (black guy) and 2 of my black friends, and they all laughed as well. To be clear, I was laughing at the absurd irony of it all, not the racial element.

That little story speaks volumes, really.

[neutronstar]

Here you go Bill.
https://www.rosettastone.com/lp/ppc/...xoCE54QAvD_BwE

[Noelle]

Posted by neutronstar (here)

Posted by Mike (here)

Posted by neutronstar (here)

Posted by Mike (here)
what, if any reparations should be made for past transgressions between one race of people and another?

Anyone wanna tackle that one?

I will, NONE. I am not racist so why should I or any other non racist person pay for the actions of racist people. Lumping me in with another group of people is racist in itself.

Last week my sister and her ex husband got into an argument. Some silly thing. He was supposed to pick up their daughter the next day, but out of sheer pettiness, he said to her "you keep her for the week. I'll pick her up Sunday." He knew she couldn't do that; she had to work. But he did it anyway.

Well I had several days off last week. So she asked me if I'd watch her. I love the little girl and enjoy watching her, but I despised being dictated to by the pettiness of her asshole ex husband. It infuriated me. I walked around that day with clenched fists. He was dumping his responsibility on me, indirectly, and it pissed me off. This isn't my responsibility, I kept telling myself. How did I get stuck with it? I had every reason in the world to say "no", and be perfectly justified in doing so. And I almost did. There were things I'd been planning on doing those days that I wouldn't be able to do if I had my niece.

I wound up watching my little niece. I don't tell this story to hold myself up as some shining beacon of goodness. I tell it because sometimes you just gotta do the right thing. You know it's the right thing because even when you're done making all the perfectly sensible arguments to yourself as to why it's not your responsibility, it still chases you around..in your heart.

I don't know what reparations should me made exactly or who should pay for them etc, I just know something needs to be done. It's something I feel in my heart.

However, I get your angle and I completely understand your frustration. I keep using this phrase here and I'll use it again - "slippery slope".

There is no frustration.

Lets use to example of the native americans. The ones that were harmed are dead and have been for a long time. So too the ones that did the harming. Don't look at them as a race, but as people. People are harming other people today. Whatever their motives are, I don't see it as a race problem even though they may. I see it as people harming other people. You can't make a wrong a right to people that are dead, only to people that are alive and were directly effected.

I'm not sure many Native Americans would agree that the harm ended a long time ago. They still deal with much oppression and discrimination; it's just not covered by media that much of the world gets their information from. And it really exists at all levels, federal, state, and local governments, off-reservation school systems, etc.

As for reparation, as far as tribes go -- they were utterly ripped off, those that signed treaties and those that did not, and the ripping off of Native peoples has continued. The Cobell Settlement is a recent example. I don't know. It's difficult for me to see how reparation or even a national apology would make a hoot of difference when they are still being harmed.

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by neutronstar (here)
If you are looking for advice all I could say is learn their language.

Posted by neutronstar (here)
Here you go Bill.
https://www.rosettastone.com/lp/ppc/...xoCE54QAvD_BwE

I'm not looking for advice. Or a language program.

You mean well, and thank you, but you didn't understand a single word I was really saying.

I'm saying that the Ecuadorians who'd prefer I wasn't in their country are NOT racist.

I'm also trying to get intelligent people, reading this, to THINK.

[neutronstar]

Posted by LadyM (here)

As for reparation, as far as tribes go -- they were utterly ripped off, those that signed treaties and those that did not, and the ripping off of Native peoples has continued. :

Sure they were ripped off. But they weren't the first and wont be the last.

But sense you probably haven't read a follow up to that post I'll copy and past it here.

Posted by neutronstar (here)
But what about the the fact that the Native Americans were warrior tribes doing that to each other, which they did. The American military was just much better at it. The Native American didn't see themselves as one race but each tribe was their own race so to speak.

It is what happens over and over again threw out history. The larger more powerful tribe concurs the less powerful.

What happens is by taking the position you are is your falling into the trap of associating yourself with the american tribe and you are feeling guilt for what your tribe has done to another. It is at the hart of racism. Your taking a side. It is like white shaming that is going on now. White privilege.

I'm am not being cold. I think what humans do to other humans now or in the past is really sad. I would much rather live in a world were it isn't so. But I am not going to play the race game and say I am a white man and I need to pay for the sins of the white men before me.

[DNA]

This thread takes some pretty big balls for a white guy to put together. My hat is off to you Bill, you have done a splendid job.

As a 45 year old white male it seems I have kept my head down and my mouth shut pretty much my whole life unless of course I was apologizing or speaking in an apologetic tone or some variation of acknowledging I had done some wrong that needed to be atoned for.
In all honesty I don't think I have wronged anyone. I've certainly never attacked anyone for being non-white, far from it.
But I have been attacked for being white. Myself and my family.
As a four year old, me, my toddler sister and my mother were mugged at knife point by four black men who were screaming profanities at us for being white while rifling through my mothers purse they had pulled from her shoulder.
In the same time period our house was broken into and what little possessions we had were stolen.
When I was five I would find out much later that three black men broke into our house while we were sleeping, they raped my mother and the whole time warned her to keep her mouth shut or they would kill her children.
Through all of this my mother never blamed black people in general for the assaults on her, and her resolve in this area was passed on to myself in so far as recognizing and understanding her demeanor.
And although I've honestly never resented black people for mistreatment of myself and family, I do understand the social dynamics taking place, and it would be unadvisable to put yourself in a situation to be the focal point of hostilities.
I love my mother and I admire her ability to remain impassive in her conviction that people are all equal, but my mother was completely naïve and wrong for putting her family in harms way and living in an area where she was a target for the social unrest and reprisal.


I can segue here into what is going on with the attempt to bring refugees into the United States and Europe.
I understand what is going on here.
I'm absolutely abhorred by the creation of so many displaced human beings.
But this situation occurred at the hands of the USA bombing the sh!t out of the middle east, and attempting to have their militia army in the guise of ISIS destabilize and bring about a regime change in Syria.
All these folks have been wronged to a very large extent by the United States, and it would be foolish to think that they do not hold resentment, anger and hostility towards the US for their abuse.
I empathize with the refugees of Libya, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan and other countries that have suffered hostilities at the hands of the United States.
So just as my mom was naïve in thinking she could move into a black neighborhood in the United States and not suffer being an easy target for social hostilities that were bubbling over at the time and her ease of access made her a readily accessible target so to would it be naïve to think refugees coming from recently bombed countries are going to soon forget the 500,000 children Madelyn Albright said would be acceptable casualties through the Iraq occupation.
People do not soon forget their family being blown apart for political purposes that had nothing what so ever to do with them.
I empathize with the plight of the refugees of the middle east, but they are not going to integrate into western society.
I see an attempt by social engineers to recreate the Gaza strip and make this the norm in the USA and most of Europe.


End of segue.




Thanks again for the conversation.

[neutronstar]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by neutronstar (here)
If you are looking for advice all I could say is learn their language.

Posted by neutronstar (here)
Here you go Bill.
https://www.rosettastone.com/lp/ppc/...xoCE54QAvD_BwE

I'm not looking for advice. Or a language program.

You mean well, and thank you, but you didn't understand a single word I was really saying.

I'm saying that the Ecuadorians who'd prefer I wasn't in their country are NOT racist.

I'm also trying to get intelligent people, reading this, to THINK.

I'm not talking about race.

You say "But I can feel the quiet, low-key, silent attitudes towards me... sometimes, in some places."

You say they don't want you there. That is what I am getting at. You can't communicate with them. I wouldn't want you there either if I couldn't talk to you. You are an unknown to them. They fear that. You are a stranger that doesn't want to communicate with them. You prove that by not learning there language.

I would never move to another country without learning their language, because of the things you are saying of how you are being treated. How could I expect to be accepted by a people that I don't want to talk to. That is what they think.

[Noelle]

Posted by Mike (here)
Hi Bill,

Nice post there.

But referring to one of the last lines in your linked post: doesnt skin, religion and race all add up to culture? If not, what's the difference?

Maybe it's just distrust, one that has been carried down through the generations after colonization. I've heard that said about how some Native Americans feel when non-Native Americans come to live in their communities. Then again, maybe there is tad or more of racism, but it could be a product of being victimized generations before.

[Innocent Warrior]

Posted by Mike (here)
Oh man, Neutronstar you just reminded me of something...

My Grampa on my Mom's side was sick and wheelchair bound at the end of his life. I went to visit him in the nursing home one day. I waited in his room until a kind black gentleman brought him back from a walk.

The black man walked out, and gesturing towards him my gramps said "that's Leon". And as if to allay some fear he imagined I might have, he added "don't worry, he's a good nig*er Michael!"

And I'll just flat out admit right here that I laughed out loud. I couldn't help it. It just came out of me. It was visceral, like a bark almost. Yes, it's a horrifying comment. But It was wrapped in such a hopelessly sad innocence and ignorance that one couldn't help but react that way. I mean, he *really* thought he was giving Leon a compliment. He had *no idea* that what he'd just said was a horrible thing. The juxtaposition was so absurd that it kind of entered the arena of humor.

I hope I haven't horrified anybody. For the record, I've told my sister's boyfriend that story (black guy) and 2 of my black friends, and they all laughed as well. To be clear, I was laughing at the absurd irony of it all, not the racial element.

That little story speaks volumes, really.

I know exactly what you mean, Mike, I laughed while reading your post, same reason.

My BF's boss said something similar in a similar situation, I don't remember the details but my BF immediately dropped his face in his hand. His boss was confused at my BF's reaction and said, "what?! I was complimenting him!". Recognising his boss' ignorance and the pointlessness of explaining his reaction (his boss is an older man and very stubborn) my BF dropped his face back in his hand after looking up to listen to his boss and then just walked away.

I grew up with the view that targetting anyone because of their 'race' is racism but recently I've challenged that view and it doesn't hold, I've observed it's most often out of ignorance and fear, not a belief of inferiority, it's more like they seem them as their enemy. I see quite a lot of fear of Muslims here and it's really sad, it's really so sad. Because of all the war on terror stuff, some people seem to think it's OK to openly and loudly make comments at or about Muslims, and I see how the Muslims manage it and it breaks my heart to see them so uncomfortable, looking straight ahead, making sure they don't do anything that may escalate the situation. I try to catch their eye and give them a smile (I've also told the bullies to cut it out, loudly, when I know it won't escalate the situation) but they're zoning it out too much and I can't lock eyes with them.

[Bill Ryan]

Posted by neutronstar (here)

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Posted by neutronstar (here)
If you are looking for advice all I could say is learn their language.

Posted by neutronstar (here)
Here you go Bill.
https://www.rosettastone.com/lp/ppc/...xoCE54QAvD_BwE

I'm not looking for advice. Or a language program.

You mean well, and thank you, but you didn't understand a single word I was really saying.

I'm saying that the Ecuadorians who'd prefer I wasn't in their country are NOT racist.

I'm also trying to get intelligent people, reading this, to THINK.

I'm not talking about race.

You say "But I can feel the quiet, low-key, silent attitudes towards me... sometimes, in some places."

You say they don't want you there. That is what I am getting at. You can't communicate with them. I wouldn't want you there either if I couldn't talk to you. You are an unknown to them. They fear that. You are a stranger that doesn't want to communicate with them. You prove that by not learning there language.

I would never move to another country without learning their language, because of the things you are saying of how you are being treated. How could I expect to be accepted by a people that I don't want to talk to. That is what they think.

Thanks again — but you're totally not getting it.

Let me spell it out.

I wrote:

I'm saying that the Ecuadorians who'd prefer I wasn't in their country are NOT racist.

I'm also trying to get intelligent people, reading this, to THINK.

What this means — and I'm sure of it — is that most of the people in the US or Canada who don't want non-integrated people from other cultures there are not racist.

French, German, Swedish or British people who don't want Middle Eastern immigrants there aren't racist, either.

Of course it's not about race. It's about the preservation of culture. This is my entire point.

[Mike]

Ah, the preservation of culture. I see.

I think I needed it spelled out for me too.

[Cardillac]

the concept of racism is rationed according to which political agenda has the upper hand at the moment (EVERYTHING is politics)-

as far as racism goes (and I abhorr it- so don't misunderstand me) but we have a double standard:

it seems to be tolerated if people of pigment are racist but not if whites are racist; please let me explain before hot coals are reaped over my head:

as I am an opera singer by profession I (am white) was once offered the role of Porgy in "Porgy and Bess"- but the offer only lasted 2 days- I was subsequently informed the performance rights to the Gershwin classic is reserved for blacks alone and not allowed for me- isn't that racist?- it is for me-

in the US we have the org. known as "Black Lives Matter," (well, shouldn't ALL lives matter?) a George Soros-funded org. where Blacks have excepted a Trojan horse and are being played like violins in the game of "divide and rule" which members of this org. cannot yet see-

if whites were to found an organization entitled "White Lives Matter" people of pigment would be screaming from the rooftops "that's racist!"-

back to "Porgy and Bess":

3 yrs. ago the Geneva, Switzerland opera staged a production of the piece and the Bess was a SWISS national (I sang with her once in Basel so I know her looks and voice; it's an OK voice but nothing special) who obviously has a bit of African DNA but she looks 85/90 % white up close but on the stage looks almost completely white; SHE was alowed to sing Bess (guess Geneva had to have at least one Swiss national in the cast) where there are many darker-skinned people with better voices suited to the role-

I could write for hrs. how in many situations many (me included) were disenfranchised because we weren't of "pigment"- and that isn't racist?

the concept of racism is a political movement to divide and rule us and the biggest losers in the concept of racism are not people of pigment but whites; we whites, blamed the biggest racists, have become the deepest victims of racism; look what's happening in Europe with all the refugies of pigment, all given a free ride and above the law, who are literally pushing and eradicating out tax-paying whites from their paid-for territory-

the concept of racism is a political movement-

Larry

[neutronstar]

Posted by Bill Ryan (here)

Of course it's not about race. It's about the preservation of culture. This is my entire point.

Ok, yes i needed it spelled out, and maybe that is part of it for some people.

Your situation doesn't sound like that, beings it is a small community. In the city with a lot of diversity a person can get away with it. But in small communities outsiders are always looked at with suspicion. I know that I have lived in small communities half my life. I hated it.

It may be the preservation of culture or simply the fear of or lack of tolerance of other cultures. Maybe it is all tied together. People fear change.

[gord]

Nearly all of the racism I've encountered personally in my area of the US in the last 25 years or so has been reverse racism. That's because it's been heavily promoted while disguised as something else, and that's because "divide and rule" works very well.