Too Sensitive, Too Safe

[Mike]

Hey Rach, I hear you. Look I'm sensitive too, especially in matters of the heart. The written or spoken word doesn't trouble me too much, which is why i am always so puzzled when folks get so offended over what seem to be small things on forums and such. But of course everyone is different. And that's cool.

The point of the thread was to try to tie some themes together. I'll try to do that here in a coherent way.

It's not sensitivity that concerns me, it's a certain brand of *exaggerated sensitivity* that paralyzes and renders an individual sort of intellectually catatonic (and emotionally frazzled)

If one is overly sensitive, they cannot hear things that will disrupt their fragile equilibrium. Therefore, not only will they ignore wise, honest, healthy advice from others...they will lie to themselves too. They will be always censoring information .

If one cannot honestly communicate with oneself and others, then any sort of intellectual advancement is impossible. If we shut down this advancement in the name of protecting sensitivities, we do so at our own peril, imo.

Instead of catering to this toxic form of sensitivity, I'm simply suggesting we work on it. Sure, take a break. Work at your own pace, of course. Don't overwhelm. But be diligent. These are my suggestions. I've given a few examples in the thread as to how this crippling sensitivity can affect others around us as well, which is why I'm continually stressing that it is in fact our responsibility to work on it. I would go so far as to say that it would be extremely selfish of us if we didn't .

This is important I think: there are different kinds of sensitivities. Some people are just naturally empathic, and feel everything 100 times harder than the next person. These are often wonderful, loving individuals. They are able to experience the highest of emotional highs and the lowest of emotional lows. Their life lesson is to learn to control these swings, or at the very least to be aware of them so as to make them less dramatic. To ignore this responsibility is to risk enormous emotional and spiritual and intellectual distortion...or worse. So I'm simply saying, work on it. Write a song, a book. See a shrink. Go running. Meditate. Indeed we have a personal responsibility to at least try..for ourselves, others, and the world around us.

Of course there are those who won't try, and refuse to take personal responsibility for themselves. They are often what we might call "professional victims". They revel in their disempowerment. To acknowledge that they are personally responsible for their lives would require them to actually do something about it, so they avoid this and other realities like the plague....and any effort to reach them will be met with vigorous defenses.

These are the most sensitive types....not because they're kind and empathic, but because they've created elaborate fantasies and excuses to distract them from their personal responsibilities, and the last thing they want to hear is any kind of real, honest, or genuine commentary on that. It's like trying to tell a drug addict that they're addicted and they need to quit....the denial is so deep and entrenched that they just can't be reached. As a result, they are totally irrational(these are the types that will follow Corey Goode, for example. And Wilcock and Church)

We see this on forums, and we see this in our everyday lives. Personal responsibility and over sensitivity and our ability to communicate (and ultimately cognitive advancement) are all intertwined inextricably. It's all a connected matrix. That's what ive been building up to here.

[Innocent Warrior]

@Mike

Beautifully tied together, I've got it, thank you. <3

Totally agree, honesty and courage are fundamental.

[Mike]

....and once again, I want to stress that this overly sensitive person who avoids personal responsibility and has therefore communicated poorly and stunted his advancement is me.

I know this topic so well because I am that person.

When I read the Peterson book "12 rules for life" I recognized myself in almost every weakness he described. It was cathartic...and a bit triggering.

But it's also empowering when you realize that you can do something about it.

It excited me so much that I felt I just had to share some of the principles. I just hope my excitement hasn't come off as preachy pontificating! If it has, I'm sorry. Truly. (It just gets a bit tiring writing "imo" before every sentence lol)

It seems someone is always asking "how can we improve the forum?" Well I've always thought that if we were less sensitive and more thoughtful our communication could be much more productive (I actually wrote that down, along with other stuff, that I wanted to get at in this thread. I actually took notes before I started this thing lol. I've never done that before!)

Anyway, I highly suggest the book "12 rules for life" by Jordan Peterson.

[onawah]

I think the word is "defensive" not "sensitive", when describing people who cannot take criticism.
Empaths and other highly sensitive people are often overly critical of themselves, taking responsibility for others' insensitivity, overburdening themselves to the point of exhaustion.
It often ties into their ruling ethical belief system, but it can lead to great imbalance.
Thus we have individuals who "love too much".
Narcissists are the opposite--people who cannot take criticism and never accept the blame.
They are not really sensitive at all but they can be clever and manipulative enough to appear so.
Unlike empaths, they don't sense the pain of others; they are too empty and terrified of the emptiness they feel inside, so they learn to mimic sensitivity.
They prey on empaths, who give their energy away to others in attempts to heal or "fix".
The stumbling block of the empath is a kind of secret pride, thinking they can heal or fix a pathological condition such as narcissism by empathizing and being so giving.
But there is hope once they understand that self-destructive pattern and find a healthier balance, stop carrying the burdens of others, and learn to say "No".
Though they will still probably need to spend time alone and out in Nature to help recharge their energies, as they feel too much of others' pain, confusion, etc..
Whereas the narcissist will seldom seek real help because then they would have to face their own terrifying darkness.
I had some really cathartic revelations when I discovered Vital Mind Psychology at this site: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_P...-VqJl0flQPGMQQ
In particular the descriptions of the dynamics of empaths and narcissists and how they interact.
There is a related discussion here: https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...ind+psychology
I think there is probably some narcissist and empath in all of us, but we must discuss in general terms to better understand the extremes.

[Mike]

Ah! Well said Nat!

You broke that down perfectly

[Valerie Villars]

Posted by Mike (here)

Posted by Valerie Villars (here)
Mike, I have been following this thread because I liked the intent, the thoughtfulness, the honesty and the discussion. It's a really good thread.

I identify a lot with what Rachel said. I used to get beat too. I remember one time this guy complimented me and I guess I downplayed it a bit because I always saw my faults and not my good qualities. So he asked me "Did you get beat as a child?"

He looked kind of stunned when I said "Yes". But, It taught me a lot. To be fair, the beatings stopped after the parent acknowledged his behavior through counseling and changed it. Back then, being beaten with a belt was kind of normal.

A really nice thread. Thanks.

Hey Val, I'm glad you're enjoying the thread

I have what will seem like a pretty weird question, and I hope Rach you will answer this too. The question is this: if you could go back in time and erase those terrible experiences, would you?

I was speaking to a paraplegic today, who told me if God approached him today and offered to undo all the damage and restore his ability to walk, he'd politely decline. It was hard for me to believe, but the man seemed sincere. He explained that the injury to his neck and the resulting disability taught him a lesson he could have never possibly learned in any other way, which was basically to seize the day and live every moment to the fullest.

It's easy for that type of stuff to sound trite, but when it's coming from the mouth of a paraplegic it really hits home. Since his car accident at 17 and resulting injury, this guy has sky dived 18 times, swam with sharks on multiple occasions, written a book, been a passenger in a russian mig that did all sorts of acrobatic stuff, given motivational speeches to large numbers of people, met various luminaries from the world of politics and sport, and on and on it goes...(his name is John Kirchner. he has a book available on amazon called "roll with me". talked with him for over an hour today. fascinating man.)

...anyway, he kept insisting that he was thrilled with the way his life had gone, and wouldn't change a thing..

wow!

Surely he wouldn't have volunteered to be a paraplegic at 17, but what at first seemed like a tragic event has given him all these wonderful opportunities.

And life does this - it forces difficult or even tragic events onto us, and in a way forces us to sink or swim. Rach that technique you used as a little girl sound borderline shamanic. As horrifying as your experiences were back then, it may just have been the only way you could have learned to do such an amazing thing. And the ramifications of that, the path it sent you on and so forth...I wonder if there was any other way for that to occur without those horrible beatings?

Tragic events like these create enormous amounts of energy and potential nothing else can, it seems. In this way it can represent an opportunity. What will we do this newly created energy? Let it traumitize us? Render us antisocial and nihilistic? Or will we use it as rocket fuel towards transformative change? We can either use these events as an excuse to remain the same, or we can use the resulting energy created to propel ourselves forward

I maintain that we actually have a personal responsibility to do the latter. It takes vigilant diligence, but it's the only sane response to the unbelievable burden of being. This is the art of living, in my view.

No, I wouldn't change a thing. Conversely if someone had told me about all the hardship, heartache, long haul confusing tangle of my life I am sure I would have very nicely refused to come. It's a lot harder actually being here than it is on paper. And I've had some real doozies, as have many, many people. Losing my son was by far the hardest. It took me eight long years to really understand that this whole of life is just the faintest blip in eternity and to really feel that with my whole being.

And being overly sensitive is something I am very familiar with because it was a big, big thing I had to overcome which I finally did. I used to get my feelings hurt all the time until I realized someone else's bad day had nothing to do with me, once I had taken a firm hold on my own behavior. That too took a long time for me to overcome. I finally, finally realized the only person I had any autonomy over was me. I couldn't control anyone or anything besides myself.

What I'm finding now is somehow I seem to be empathetic with animals. There's always a silver lining.

[onawah]

Here is the latest talk from Vital Mind Psychology, which may apply to your perceived dilemma, Mike:

Vital Mind Psychology
Published on May 9, 2018

In this video I take a deeper look into the chief features of the internal critic or judge, especially as it relates to the empath. Having a strong internal critic is one of the key features almost all of the empaths I have worked with share. Watch the video to learn more about how the internal critic or judge operates and ways to shrink its influence.

Source: https://youtube.com/watch?v=7jhgbSQ95f8

...And perhaps some wisdom from Chogyam Trungpa may be helpful, here: Trust in Your Goodness
https://www.lionsroar.com/trust-in-your-goodness/

Instead of trying to promote or defend ourselves, says Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche, we can base our lives on something more powerful and trustworthy—our basic goodness.
Look in the mirror. Appreciate yourself. You look beautiful in a simple, humble way.

Meditation practice is not an exotic or out-of-reach approach. It is immediate and personal, and it involves an intimate relationship with ourselves. It is getting to know ourselves by examining our actual psychological process without being ashamed of it.

We are often critical of ourselves to the point where we may become our own enemies. Meditation is a way of ending that quarrel by making friends with ourselves. Then we may find that we are not as bad as we thought or had been told we were.

If we label ourselves as hopeless cases or see ourselves as villains, there is no way to use our own
experience as a stepping-stone. If we take the attitude that there is something wrong with us, we must constantly look outside ourselves for something better than we are. That search can continue indefinitely, on and on and on.

In contrast to that approach, meditation is contacting our actual situation, the raw and rugged state of our mind and being. No matter what is there, we should look at it. It is similar to building a long-term friendship with someone. As part of the process of becoming friends, you get to know things that you do not like about someone, and you encounter parts of the relationship that are very uncomfortable.

Acknowledging the problems and coming to terms with them is often the foundation for a long-term friendship. Having included those things from the beginning, you won’t be shocked by them later on. Since you know all the negative aspects, you don’t have to hide from that side of the relationship. Then you can cultivate the other side, the positive side, as well. That is also a very good way to start making friends with yourself. Otherwise, you might feel surprised and cheated later on, when you discover the things that you’ve been hiding from yourself.

Whatever exists in us is a natural situation. It is another dimension of natural beauty. People sometimes go to great lengths to appreciate nature, by climbing mountains, going on safari to see giraffes and lions in Africa, or taking a cruise to Antarctica. It is much simpler and more immediate to appreciate the natural beauty of ourselves. This is actually far more beautiful than exotic flora and fauna, far more fantastic, painful, colorful, and delightful.

Meditation is extremely down to earth, irritatingly down to earth. It can also be demanding. If you stick with it, you will understand things about yourself and others, and you will gain clarity. If you practice regularly and follow this discipline, your experiences won’t necessarily be dramatic, but you will have a sense of discovering yourself. Through the down-to-earth practice of meditation you can see the colors of your own existence. The earth begins to speak to you rather than heaven sending you messages, so to speak.

We often approach life as though we were defending ourselves from an attack. Many of us, when we were growing up, were frequently reprimanded in ways that made us feel bad about ourselves. Whether the criticism came from our parents, a teacher at school, or someone else, it tended to reinforce a feeling that there was something wrong with us. Criticism often produced a feeling of isolation, a feeling of you and me, separated by a great divide. We learned many defense mechanisms at an early age, thinking that a good defense would be the best protection from further reproach.

We have continued this approach as adults. Whether it’s a confrontation with a stranger on the street or an argument with our partner in the bedroom, we believe that we need good excuses to explain ourselves and good logic to defend ourselves. We behave almost as though we were professional negotiators, our own little lawyers.

In Western psychology, some approaches stress the importance of reinforcing ego to enhance self-esteem. We may misinterpret this to mean that we should promote ourselves at the expense of others. A person may become very self-centered with this attitude. It is like you are saying to the world, “Don’t you know who I am? I am what I am. If I’m attacked for that, that’s too bad. I’m on the side of the right.” You feel justified in what you’re doing, as if you had God on your side, or at least law and order on your side.

Perhaps we should reexamine these assumptions, to see what really works. We need to investigate whether it’s beneficial to build ourselves up, especially to do so by putting others down. We need to seriously question what is harmful and what is beneficial. In my own experience, I have found that employing a self-centered approach and being constantly on the defensive are not helpful.

Rather than reinforcing our “me-ness” and justifying ourselves constantly, we should base our lives on something more powerful and trustworthy. If we develop real trust in ourselves, constant self-defense is no longer required. That may sound good, but what are we going to trust in ourselves? To begin with, we need to look within ourselves. When we look, what do we see? Ask yourself: Is there something worthwhile and trustworthy in me? Of course there is! But it’s so simple that we tend to miss it or discount it. When we look into ourselves we tend to fixate on our neurosis, restlessness, and aggression. Or we might fixate on how wonderful, accomplished, and invulnerable we are, but those feelings are usually superficial, covering up our insecurities.

Take a look. There is something else, something more than all that. We are willing: willing to wait, willing to smile, willing to be decent. We shouldn’t discount that potential, that powerful seed of gentleness. Even the most vicious animals possess natural affection and gentleness for their young. That element of gentleness exists in every being. We don’t have to be embarrassed about it or try to hide it. We don’t need to cast ourselves as bad boys and girls or as heroines or tough guys. We can afford to acknowledge and cultivate gentleness and, first of all, to treat ourselves better.

It is worth appreciating ourselves, having affection for ourselves, and taking care of ourselves. Genuineness, goodness, and appreciation are extraordinary gifts. Ultimately, that is where we place our trust. This truth is so true that we don’t have to pretend at all. It is real.

Every one of us is capable of loving ourselves. We are also capable of falling in love. We are capable of kissing our loved ones. We are capable of extending our arm to shake hands. We may offer a meal to someone, welcoming him or her to the table, saying, “Hello. How are you?” We are capable of these simple things. We’ve been performing such ordinary acts of kindness for a long time.

Generally we don’t make a big deal about this capability, but in some sense we should. We should celebrate or at least acknowledge our capacity for simple acts of generosity and gentleness. They are the real thing, and in the end they are much more powerful and transformative than aggression, egomania, and hatred.

When you appreciate yourself, you realize that you don’t have to feel wretched or condemned. You don’t have to artificially puff yourself up, either. You discover your basic dignity, which comes along with gentleness. You have always possessed this, but you may never have recognized it before. You don’t have to be an egomaniac to appreciate yourself. In fact, you appreciate yourself more when you are free of the ugliness of that egotism, which is actually based on self-hatred.

Look in the mirror. Appreciate yourself. You look beautiful in a simple, humble way. When you choose your clothes, when you comb your hair, when you take a shower, you are expressing an element of complete and fundamental goodness, wakefulness, and decency. There is an alternative to feeling condemned. You actually can make friends with yourself.

Adapted from Mindfulness in Action: Making Friends with Yourself through Meditation and Everyday Awareness, by Chögyam Trungpa, with permission from Shambhala Publications.

[Innocent Warrior]

@onawah

I think the word is "defensive" not "sensitive", when describing people who cannot take criticism...

I get what you’re saying but it can be both, there is a shadow side to being sensitive and some people don’t handle it very well. I can relate due to times when I feel down but some people are chronically on the shadow side of it.

They’re ruled by their emotions and so their moods change easily, according to the environment. They don’t want to feel bad so they don’t receive criticism or even a differing view very well and it becomes a vicious cycle to the point that just differing from them in any way is perceived as an invalidation of the way they are. Growth is slow so they tend to be lacking in emotional intelligence.

These people come off as narcissists when really they’re just not handling being sensitive very well, which is understandable but exhausting.

[onawah]

Yes, and the characteristics can overlap.
According to psychologists, there are covert narcissists, who are not overtly manipulative or as obviously egocentric as overt narcissists, but they can still be very parasitical, consider themselves to be victims rather than predators, and can appear to be victims...
But to an empath who can feel how draining their presence can be, they don't register as sensitive, but rather, as being very needy and often unconscious of what a black hole their energetic presence may feel like to another.
An aware and empowered empath can sometimes provide them with a wake up call by mirroring back to them rather than feeding them.
I think there are examples of individuals all over the spectrum, but considering oneself to be a victim is a characteristic of narcissists, though certainly not limited to them alone.
We are all victims to something at some time in our lives, but it's not necessary to blame another or ourselves to deal with it effectively, though the ego likes to do that.
The state of mind of victimhood karma creates more scenarios where one will feel oneself to be ever more a victim, which creates more inner darkness, and that can lead to the pathology of narcissism.
Somewhere along the line one has to take more responsibility for oneself, or the downward trend will continue, and then it seems one can become fair game for entities that can overpower (at least temporarily) and lead a soul into an even worse spiral downward.
I think that can be short circuited even by simple realizations such as that one is not so much a human having a spiritual experience, but a spirit having a human experience, and gaining some detachment thereby.

[Wind]

I think this has been a fascinating and great thread, also Jordan's work is great (as he is student of Jung). Here's a good read - Carl
Jung and the Shadow.

I haven't written anything here earlier, because I think that many good points have already been brought up and I don't have much to add to that. However, as a very sensitive, highly empathic person I can relate to this topic a lot though... I never have liked rude and blunt people, I think they're have some imbalances when it comes to being empathic. You can be honest, frank and kind at the same time without being a douchebag. It's a skill!

I know that I could be very hurtful with my words because I have the capability to use my verbal vocabulary in very versatile ways. I don't do that because it makes me feel uncomfortable if I feel that I've been hurtful towards other people. That doesn't stop me speaking from my truth though and in many ways I've had to toughen up my own skin too. The ego sure is clever and always enjoys the drama. As said previously here, being sensitive is not weakness. It's a special quality in people. Yet people should try to know themselves and also be honest to themselves.

Some sensitive people would seek to avoid pain, because they're... Well, so sensitive to it too of course. Unfortunately, avoidance never fixes the underlying problems. In fact it just makes them more fester more and later they will burst out and be painful as an open sore. You can run away from your problems, but you can't hide from them. Confront the darkness, the darkness the hidden, your pain, because that's how you will overcome them. Only after that you will have learned a great deal about life and your Self. That's what Carl Jung meant when he said;

[Innocent Warrior]

Nice choice, Wind. Jung is boss. He dove into the deep end of his shadow, bathed in it, took up residence for a while and came out the other side profoundly insightful and sane. Beyond impressive.

“You wanted to accept everything. So accept madness too. Let the light of your madness shine and it will suddenly dawn on you. Madness is not to be despised and not to be feared, but instead you should give it life” ~ Jung

Edit: It’s about facing fears or what you don’t want to accept, he was referring to the divine madness. That place where you find yourself thinking something like, I’m either onto something here or I’ve gone mad. It’s both because the irrationality of spirit would be deemed madness according to conventional views.

[Mike]

Rach you could have just written this post(#88) 5 pages ago and we all could have folded up the tents and gone home. Where were you??? (Well said!)

These people come off as narcissists when really they’re just not handling being sensitive very well, which is understandable but exhausting.

Now we're talking. I think this is true, but I also think some of these people really are narcissists - passive aggressive narcissists. imo, when the ego wants attention, it doesn't care if it's because it's the winner or the loser. The highly competitive "winner" is often viewed as the overt narcissist, his ego demanding attention through his successes...while the underdog or "loser" tends to garner sympathy and ego attention through their failures. Both are equally manipulative, and both are narcissists imo. Though it appears one role is favorable to the other, both types of people embrace their roles with equal enthusiasm, because both are getting the same amount of ego attention..just for different reasons.

The perpetual loser quickly carves out a niche as the person we should all feel sorry for. Though they appear quite despondent, they are actually getting an ego thrill from all the attention received. They will resist any and all suggestions for any real, honest, sincere improvement...because their ego has embraced the victim role, and any attempt to take that away would be akin to removing heroin from the hands of a desperate addict.

I've had several girlfriends like this. It's maddening. Their self-proclaimed sensitivity is really just something they hide behind; it's really ego-seeking-attention masquerading as "sensitivity". By calling it "sensitivity", any suggestion that they should try to change/improve can now be labelled an "attack", and the alleged attacker is now the big bad bully.

I think my next thread will explore why the hell i keep selecting these types of people as partners!

[Mike]

Wind, oh hell!!....instead of responding to your great post, i edited it! god damnit! So sorry!!!

I'm going to see if it can be recovered. Bear with me.....


post update: Paul, the ever brilliant and wise admin here, has successfully rescued this post from the ether. We are incredibly lucky to have him here.

mooooooo!

[Mike]

Wind the quote I loved so much in your post is the bit about being honest and forward without being a douchebag.

You called it a skill; i think it could just as accurately be called an art.

Earlier in the thread i said we all have a responsibility to become artists - this is exactly what i meant.

Thanks for the excellent post

[DNA]

Posted by onawah (here)
According to the Michael Teachings (http://www.michaelteachings.com/soul_age_index.html ) which I have always found to be a great descriptive tool (though words always fail at some point and we must never take them too literally, especially when it comes to subject matter that is so cosmic in scope) ...there are souls at all different stages of advancement on our world, from infant on up to old.

Hi Natalie, you know, you and I are far more alike than you may think. I apologize if some where we shared a rather strong opposing view point over very heated current events. I think if we could table our opinions there, we would find an absolute myriad of areas we both agree in. What you speak of here is why I'm of the opinion that there will never be peace on earth. Unless this planet is given a reprieve from incoming infant, young and adult souls to the point where the mature and old souls outnumber them to the point to help nullify their collective influence. We could also speak here on how different countries register as a collective soul age and how this is playing into world politics so much.
This post I made a couple of weeks ago is in response to a statement someone made about inherit soul syphoning organisms and to what affect they would have. My response was a Michael Teachings related one where I basically combine the "mud shadows" of Carlos Castaneda lore with the Chief Features of the Michael Teachings. I thought you might be able to see where I was coming from here. https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1220401

Posted by onawah (here)
( Also some soulless beings, apparently, and non-human souls, but that's another discussion.)

Billy Meier speaks of soulless automatons being created as soldiers by nefarious government types but I've never heard anything of this nature in the Michael Teachings.
Michael Newton's Journey of the soul books speak quite a bit of non-human off world originating souls that are incarnating on this planet now but I've never noted this in the Micheal Teachings either. I'm not bringing this stuff up to debate you, I would just love to hear information I've not been exposed to if it exists.

Posted by onawah (here)
Every level will develop different strengths and weaknesses, and every step along the way is useful in our full development as human beings.
Sometimes we choose to experience a weakness so as to be better able to understand and help a similar weakness in others.

Indeed, it is my absolute opinion that we as souls have all done some horrible things to ourselves and other humans. I don't know why but it seems that we are not allowed to always play the good guy in this earthly play, but that we must also be the antagonist at times. Many folks seem to refuse this idea and feel that their soul knows no taint but I'm of the opinion that true learning demands we not only see things from different perspectives but we must learn by experiencing different perspectives.

Posted by onawah (here)
Courage and sensitivity are two great strengths to have.
They may not necessarily be developed concurrently, but having them both indicates a healthy balance of human traits.
Sensitivity is as much a strength as courage is.
Too much sensitivity unbalanced by courage can lead to cowardice, too much courage unbalanced by sensitivity can lead to recklessness or even cruelty.
The more we progress, the less judgmental we will be of where others are on their journey, though that doesn't mean we won't have personal likes and dislikes, value certain traits over others.
It's all very much an individual matter.
Grandmotherly compassion is not the same thing as tough love, but both have their place.
A child may not be ready for tough love, but a grandmother's gentle, sweet touch can be just the thing at the right moment.
Other times, we may need a bracing jolt of tough love.

I remember reading the Celestine Prophecy as a young lad and I remember how much it blew me away.
I understood from the book why I couldn't handle being around certain people on account of those folks needing to constantly engage in theatrics designed to steal your energy.
Sensitivity can be likened to how easily your energy field is affected by the environment and the people in it.
Some people have multiple levels of perception developing, organs of awareness that are registering stimuli many are deaf/blind and mute too.
These awakening and or awakened perceptions require energy and often make a person more vulnerable to energy thieving types of folks.
In so far as the Michael Teachings and their vernacular is concerned a mature soul is in a developing state where these things are awakening and as such make this person more vulnerable on account of certain insulations not having manifested as in the case of an old soul.
I would give such a mature soul certain allowances for insulating themselves in a manner where their environment is less chaotic and they are allowed to develop and continue their growth without setbacks.

Posted by onawah (here)
Don Juan Matus was often seeking situations that would scare Castenada and force him to see things differently.

Indeed, they sought to move his assemblige point through certain theatrics and drugs. I can see how this would work.
As a young man I had an instance where I had gotten off work and my car broke down in the middle of a busy city. It was late at night and the cell phone craze hadn't started so no one was answering their phone. I was prepared to sleep in my car when something crazy happened. An old Native American walked up to me as I sat with my head in my hands next to a pay phone and he sat down at across from me, from the looks of me sitting outside a closed restaurant he assumed I was homeless. He was talking to me and out of no where he asked me "do you know what it is to be altruistic?". He then proceeded to tell me how he was going to let me sleep on his couch that night but we had to do something first. This man was engaging and a constant conversation. Very colorful. We began walking and before long we ended up in front of a convenient store where he started asking people for money. I can't tell you why I did it, but he started egging me on and saying "come on, you are going to need money" and before you know it I started begging with him. This convenient store was not far from a major university and as such most of the people coming in were my age which made this all the more mortifying on my part. I realized that the embarasment and shame I was feeling were due to my self importance and that this was an excellent chance for me to see if I could battle through it. I did, I became a homeless person begging for change from kids my own age at the time. It may sound trite but there was a transformation that took place in me. I'm the type of person I can't even ask my own father for money, so for me to ask total strangers for their money was a shock to my system. After a while the Old Indian said we were done, he took our recently earned money and went into the store we had been pan handling in front of and bought beer. We then went to his house, we drank the beer and he continued telling me stories about his life, he did so until he passed out, so I went to sleep. I woke up the next day, thanked him for being so altruistic and went to my car, which to my surprise started right up.

[QUOTE=onawah;1224554] Gurdjieff spoke of students needing shocks at times to help wake them up, though he said that eventually we need to learn how to provide our own shocks rather than depending on Life or a teacher to provide them.At other times, both teachers would provide soothing and reassurance.
I think that is what all good teachers do, and really, they are only imitating Life, which provides us with experiences of all kinds.
Good teachers just help to accelerate Life's process.
There's an interesting discussion on an old thread here on a similar vein: https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...r-s-Compassion
[QUOTE=Rachel;1224547]
I've always had a problem with spiritual teachers and such trying to put a d!ck in my ass, well not recently, but as a young man I learned pretty quick to be leery of most spiritual teachers. I hope this isn't the jolt Gurdjieff was referring to in your post earlier.
Men in general are flawed beings in so far as spiritual teachings are concerned, I'm no women's lib advocate or social justice warrior but it is my experience that women not only make the best teachers but in so far as spiritual teachings are concerned they should probably be exclusive as the only teachers. You can probably surmise from this what my opinion of the Catholic Church is.

Posted by onawah (here)
Your advice is excellent, given the right person at the right time. At the wrong time it could bury them deeper or just make them angry. You could be looking at the most miserable, apparently weak looking person in front of you, not realising you stand before one of the most powerful and resilient people you’ve ever met, who really needs a big long rest right now, years if necessary. A very sensitive person who’s gone through an unbelievably difficult experience, you just never know, life can be very complex, as you know.

Agreed.

[onawah]

[QUOTE=DNA;1224760]
Actually, those are Rachel's words from this post: https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1224547

Your advice is excellent, given the right person at the right time. At the wrong time it could bury them deeper or just make them angry. You could be looking at the most miserable, apparently weak looking person in front of you, not realising you stand before one of the most powerful and resilient people you’ve ever met, who really needs a big long rest right now, years if necessary. A very sensitive person who’s gone through an unbelievably difficult experience, you just never know, life can be very complex, as you know.

[Innocent Warrior]

Posted by Mike (here)

These people come off as narcissists when really they’re just not handling being sensitive very well, which is understandable but exhausting.

Now we're talking. I think this is true, but I also think some of these people really are narcissists - passive aggressive narcissists. imo, when the ego wants attention, it doesn't care if it's because it's the winner or the loser. The highly competitive "winner" is often viewed as the overt narcissist, his ego demanding attention through his successes...while the underdog or "loser" tends to garner sympathy and ego attention through their failures. Both are equally manipulative, and both are narcissists imo. Though it appears one role is favorable to the other, both types of people embrace their roles with equal enthusiasm, because both are getting the same amount of ego attention..just for different reasons.

The perpetual loser quickly carves out a niche as the person we should all feel sorry for. Though they appear quite despondent, they are actually getting an ego thrill from all the attention received. They will resist any and all suggestions for any real, honest, sincere improvement...because their ego has embraced the victim role, and any attempt to take that away would be akin to removing heroin from the hands of a desperate addict.

I've had several girlfriends like this. It's maddening. Their self-proclaimed sensitivity is really just something they hide behind; it's really ego-seeking-attention masquerading as "sensitivity". By calling it "sensitivity", any suggestion that they should try to change/improve can now be labelled an "attack", and the alleged attacker is now the big bad bully.

I think my next thread will explore why the hell i keep selecting these types of people as partners!

Evidently, you’re correct, they’re called covert narcissists; 23 Signs You're Secretly a Narcissist Masquerading as a Sensitive Introvert

Where were you???

Where I’m headed back to now. I’ve had my Avalonian fix of fabulous, genius, sweet people. <3

[onawah]

[QUOTE=DNA;1224760]

Posted by onawah (here)
According to the Michael Teachings (http://www.michaelteachings.com/soul_age_index.html ) which I have always found to be a great descriptive tool (though words always fail at some point and we must never take them too literally, especially when it comes to subject matter that is so cosmic in scope) ...there are souls at all different stages of advancement on our world, from infant on up to old.

Hi Natalie, you know, you and I are far more alike than you may think. I apologize if some where we shared a rather strong opposing view point over very heated current events. I think if we could table our opinions there, we would find an absolute myriad of areas we both agree in.

No doubt!! Don Juan and the Michael Teachings give us a lot of common ground, in my view. Gurdjieff not as much (I could never get past his alcoholism) but he came from a good tradition of teachers and I found many of the teachings to be very helpful.

What you speak of here is why I'm of the opinion that there will never be peace on earth. Unless this planet is given a reprieve from incoming infant, young and adult souls to the point where the mature and old souls outnumber them to the point to help nullify their collective influence. We could also speak here on how different countries register as a collective soul age and how this is playing into world politics so much.

I don't know if it's true though I hope so, but some psychics have said that planets also go through stages and that Gaia is graduating now to her next stage of maturity, which will mean that fewer infant, baby and young souls will be incarnating here. That would indicate an era of peace upcoming.

This post I made a couple of weeks ago is in response to a statement someone made about inherit soul syphoning organisms and to what affect they would have. My response was a Michael Teachings related one where I basically combine the "mud shadows" of Carlos Castaneda lore with the Chief Features of the Michael Teachings. I thought you might be able to see where I was coming from here. https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...=1#post1220401

Excellent post!

Posted by onawah (here)
( Also some soulless beings, apparently, and non-human souls, but that's another discussion.)

Billy Meier speaks of soulless automatons being created as soldiers by nefarious government types but I've never heard anything of this nature in the Michael Teachings.

Nor have I, but they are many channelers of the Michael Teachings, and their readings are not all recorded for public perusal, by any means.

Michael Newton's Journey of the soul books speak quite a bit of non-human off world originating souls that are incarnating on this planet now but I've never noted this in the Micheal Teachings either. I'm not bringing this stuff up to debate you, I would just love to hear information I've not been exposed to if it exists.

I've found some of Simon Parkes information to be helpful on that subject, and on the Djinn (parasitic non-human multidimensional beings) but discussing of that is problematical on Avalon.

Posted by onawah (here)
Every level will develop different strengths and weaknesses, and every step along the way is useful in our full development as human beings.
Sometimes we choose to experience a weakness so as to be better able to understand and help a similar weakness in others.

Indeed, it is my absolute opinion that we as souls have all done some horrible things to ourselves and other humans. I don't know why but it seems that we are not allowed to always play the good guy in this earthly play, but that we must also be the antagonist at times. Many folks seem to refuse this idea and feel that their soul knows no taint but I'm of the opinion that true learning demands we not only see things from different perspectives but we must learn by experiencing different perspectives.

I think that is relative to the maturity of the soul in question. Even for a very developed soul, in order to accomplish something that is necessary for personal evolution, or for the benefit of mankind in general, tasks may be taken on which will necessitate compromise in order to bring about the greater good, though it may entail taking on personal, negative karma that will have to be balanced out later on. It is a kind of self-sacrifice in the larger perspective, though egoistic actions may also come into play, or at least appear to. For example, for altruistic purposes, a soul may take on a lifetime in a role of leadership such as that of a general or queen, in order to prevent a less altruistic soul from assuming that role, since that soul would do more harm to the greater good in the position of power. As in the Mahabarata, where the noble Arjuna laments to Krishna that his fellow men are slaying each other senselessly and he does not want to take part, but Krishna shows him that his participation is required for the best possible outcome.

Posted by onawah (here)
Courage and sensitivity are two great strengths to have.
They may not necessarily be developed concurrently, but having them both indicates a healthy balance of human traits.
Sensitivity is as much a strength as courage is.
Too much sensitivity unbalanced by courage can lead to cowardice, too much courage unbalanced by sensitivity can lead to recklessness or even cruelty.
The more we progress, the less judgmental we will be of where others are on their journey, though that doesn't mean we won't have personal likes and dislikes, value certain traits over others.
It's all very much an individual matter.
Grandmotherly compassion is not the same thing as tough love, but both have their place.
A child may not be ready for tough love, but a grandmother's gentle, sweet touch can be just the thing at the right moment.
Other times, we may need a bracing jolt of tough love.

I remember reading the Celestine Prophecy as a young lad and I remember how much it blew me away.
I understood from the book why I couldn't handle being around certain people on account of those folks needing to constantly engage in theatrics designed to steal your energy.
Sensitivity can be likened to how easily your energy field is affected by the environment and the people in it.
Some people have multiple levels of perception developing, organs of awareness that are registering stimuli many are deaf/blind and mute too.
These awakening and or awakened perceptions require energy and often make a person more vulnerable to energy thieving types of folks.
In so far as the Michael Teachings and their vernacular is concerned a mature soul is in a developing state where these things are awakening and as such make this person more vulnerable on account of certain insulations not having manifested as in the case of an old soul.
I would give such a mature soul certain allowances for insulating themselves in a manner where their environment is less chaotic and they are allowed to develop and continue their growth without setbacks.

Not to contradict, but in the Michael Teachings, mature souls are often involved in lots of drama, while old souls are the ones more likely to seek "shelter from the storm", having become tempted or deluded no longer by the passions and the endless play of human desire which can never be satisfied (Maya). As in Shakespeare's MacBeth: " Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player That struts and frets his hour upon the stage And then is heard no more: it is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing."

Posted by onawah (here)
Don Juan Matus was often seeking situations that would scare Castenada and force him to see things differently.

Indeed, they sought to move his assemblige point through certain theatrics and drugs. I can see how this would work.
As a young man I had an instance where I had gotten off work and my car broke down in the middle of a busy city. It was late at night and the cell phone craze hadn't started so no one was answering their phone. I was prepared to sleep in my car when something crazy happened. An old Native American walked up to me as I sat with my head in my hands next to a pay phone and he sat down at across from me, from the looks of me sitting outside a closed restaurant he assumed I was homeless. He was talking to me and out of no where he asked me "do you know what it is to be altruistic?". He then proceeded to tell me how he was going to let me sleep on his couch that night but we had to do something first. This man was engaging and a constant conversation. Very colorful. We began walking and before long we ended up in front of a convenient store where he started asking people for money. I can't tell you why I did it, but he started egging me on and saying "come on, you are going to need money" and before you know it I started begging with him. This convenient store was not far from a major university and as such most of the people coming in were my age which made this all the more mortifying on my part. I realized that the embarasment and shame I was feeling were due to my self importance and that this was an excellent chance for me to see if I could battle through it. I did, I became a homeless person begging for change from kids my own age at the time. It may sound trite but there was a transformation that took place in me. I'm the type of person I can't even ask my own father for money, so for me to ask total strangers for their money was a shock to my system. After a while the Old Indian said we were done, he took our recently earned money and went into the store we had been pan handling in front of and bought beer. We then went to his house, we drank the beer and he continued telling me stories about his life, he did so until he passed out, so I went to sleep. I woke up the next day, thanked him for being so altruistic and went to my car, which to my surprise started right up.

A very timely and instructive experience from a kind of Bodhisattva, it would seem... they come in all shapes and disguises!

Posted by onawah (here)
Gurdjieff spoke of students needing shocks at times to help wake them up, though he said that eventually we need to learn how to provide our own shocks rather than depending on Life or a teacher to provide them.At other times, both teachers would provide soothing and reassurance.
I think that is what all good teachers do, and really, they are only imitating Life, which provides us with experiences of all kinds.
Good teachers just help to accelerate Life's process.
There's an interesting discussion on an old thread here on a similar vein: https://projectavalon.net/forum4/show...r-s-Compassion

I've always had a problem with spiritual teachers and such trying to put a d!ck in my ass, well not recently, but as a young man I learned pretty quick to be leery of most spiritual teachers. I hope this isn't the jolt Gurdjieff was referring to in your post earlier.
Men in general are flawed beings in so far as spiritual teachings are concerned, I'm no women's lib advocate or social justice warrior but it is my experience that women not only make the best teachers but in so far as spiritual teachings are concerned they should probably be exclusive as the only teachers. You can probably surmise from this what my opinion of the Catholic Church is.

Even the highest teachers are still human, whether male or female, but the masculine and female energies globally have become badly in need of balancing, and that certainly goes for spiritual teachers as well. In many cases, especially so, as in the case of the Vatican, and the fundamentalists of all religions generally.

[rgray222]

We can take action to get over our fears, we can go to the top of a skyscraper to deal with heights, collect a jar of spiders, fly in an airplane. But these fears and most fear ultimately center around death. This is the ultimate fear that we can't take action to resolve........ outside of actually dying.

We seem so sensitive to so much nowadays that our modern complaints are more trivial than ever in human history. So many of our day to day fears and sensitivities dissipate when our lives are on the line.

A question I have struggled with for years is...............is war necessary. Of course, the quick answer is absolutely not. But in the greater scheme of things maybe it is necessary from a greater universal level. I have never thought about war from this perspective.

Does the world beg for a world war to drop us back into reality, how much tension is needed. My point is if we are faced with a world war on a grand scale all our fears, sensitivities, echo chambers and sense of importance go right out the window.

I am not looking for any tension from this post...........it is just a thought.