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Thread: When men were men & women were feminine

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    Avalon Member Pam's Avatar
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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    Quote Posted by Flash (here)
    your text is, to me it seems, a dreamed of text, not ever near the reality.

    Even in old times, men who where men, following your definition, were a very tiny tiny minority, mostly from the higher class, which had money and food.

    the staving masses or those who had to work hard never had the time and energy left to be that feminine or masculine. They were just surviving with quite primitive means.

    To better describe:

    Men were working hard in the woods or hunting. If they were not, their family would starve, which many many family did because their men would be sleazy or drunk bas..., those wifes would have to work double for their children.

    Women had no time for anything else than cooking and washing and being pregnant therefore taking care of a trolley of children, if not dying during delivery of one of them (30% of women would die giving birth). Believe me, after a few years of this, forget the 'feminine' look or attitude (which is a cultural concept anyhow, at least the way you describe it).

    In most untouched societies, women still pair together for survival and help each other, not having that much from their men anyhow.

    To me, after many years on this planet, I perceive us, humans, as in the same mammal make up as other mammals, like lions, where the female does most of the work (hunting for lions) and the male rest and sleep.

    All todays stats says the same: women make 30% less than men on average, and work twice as hard in the workforce, which in fact makes a 70% differential. It was also that way in the old time. I have seen it my whole life. Very few woman really have the steady support of their male, independently of the culture, civilisation, or Rockerfellers of this world - the latter only utilised a pre-existing make up.

    Maybe what you have said is true in your experience, but mine doesn't bear out what you are saying in the least. How do you know women work twice as hard in the workplace? How would anyone know?I certainly have not seen this to be true and I am a woman. Your 30% less salary stat is bogus, at least in the US. It is very easy to manipulate statistics. There are distinct differences between the genders. You have described some of them in your post. Who was it that was out hunting food? Males. Why not the females if they are so hard working? Because they were the ones that had the kids, and nurtured them. Women do not have the strength, nor the aggressive tendencies that men can muster to hunt, generally speaking.

    Your vast generalization the very few women have the steady support of their male, does the male have the steady support of the female, or have you even considered this?

    Undoubtedly, their are many differences between males and females, which should be accepted. This ridiculous idea that women can copy and better everything a male does is really a form of adulation, although I'm sure most women wouldn't see it that way. One of our biggest deficits as women is that we are strongly driven by emotions, which can sometimes cause us to make decisions based strictly on the moments emotion rather than objectively analyzing a situation and tempering that with emotional input. Women seem to be far more fluid in their way of doing things and men are more linear in their task performing. Women are more prone to drama and men far less so(although that could be changing). Of course, there are always exceptions.

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    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    peterpam I think that is a very honest post from your perspective and one that I agree with in the main.

    thanks
    Chris
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    Ba-ba-Ra thank you for this.
    It really mirrors my thoughts on this, though I accept that people are so different that there is no norm now.
    Quote Ba-ba-Ra
    "But, back to heterosexual: My son once said: What men want most is respect, What women want most is attention.
    I think Greybeard said something similar.
    In truth, I believe we all want to be treated with respect "

    Yes you got it---thanks.

    Chris
    Thanks for the bold and interesting topic!

    I agree with the general sentiment "What men want most is respect, What women want most is attention."

    I don't require respect... but I DO require NO DISRESPECT

    I don't crave attention... but I do crave affection which I think is very close to the same. I'd pick affection over respect all day long.

    Safety is also a big motivation for me. If I had to pick affection vs safety, I'll take the safety.

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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    A side issue is the mobile phone.
    The conversation with the one on the other end is more important than who you are with.
    You will see several young people walking down the street and they are all into the conversation on the mobiles.

    Its an eroding of respect for the company your with.
    Its as though we are conditioned to believe it better some where else or with some one else.
    Addiction to video games--virtual reality more important than the one your with.

    Then there are TV programs like" House wives of" (you name it)
    Its all look at what ive got--even down to the latest inplant.
    The Kardashians programs seemingly got started through a porn clip on u tube.

    The red carpet --news all about who showed the most flesh.

    Im not prudish --a time and place for everything
    and whats natural is not nasty.

    However I think it downgrades the female --gives the wrong impression in particular to young girls and men.

    Ch
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Avalon Member Flash's Avatar
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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    Quote Posted by peterpam (here)
    Quote Posted by Flash (here)
    your text is, to me it seems, a dreamed of text, not ever near the reality.

    Even in old times, men who where men, following your definition, were a very tiny tiny minority, mostly from the higher class, which had money and food.

    the staving masses or those who had to work hard never had the time and energy left to be that feminine or masculine. They were just surviving with quite primitive means.

    To better describe:

    Men were working hard in the woods or hunting. If they were not, their family would starve, which many many family did because their men would be sleazy or drunk bas..., those wifes would have to work double for their children.

    Women had no time for anything else than cooking and washing and being pregnant therefore taking care of a trolley of children, if not dying during delivery of one of them (30% of women would die giving birth). Believe me, after a few years of this, forget the 'feminine' look or attitude (which is a cultural concept anyhow, at least the way you describe it).

    In most untouched societies, women still pair together for survival and help each other, not having that much from their men anyhow.

    To me, after many years on this planet, I perceive us, humans, as in the same mammal make up as other mammals, like lions, where the female does most of the work (hunting for lions) and the male rest and sleep.

    All todays stats says the same: women make 30% less than men on average, and work twice as hard in the workforce, which in fact makes a 70% differential. It was also that way in the old time. I have seen it my whole life. Very few woman really have the steady support of their male, independently of the culture, civilisation, or Rockerfellers of this world - the latter only utilised a pre-existing make up.

    Maybe what you have said is true in your experience, but mine doesn't bear out what you are saying in the least. How do you know women work twice as hard in the workplace? How would anyone know?I certainly have not seen this to be true and I am a woman. Your 30% less salary stat is bogus, at least in the US. It is very easy to manipulate statistics. There are distinct differences between the genders. You have described some of them in your post. Who was it that was out hunting food? Males. Why not the females if they are so hard working? Because they were the ones that had the kids, and nurtured them. Women do not have the strength, nor the aggressive tendencies that men can muster to hunt, generally speaking.

    Your vast generalization the very few women have the steady support of their male, does the male have the steady support of the female, or have you even considered this?

    Undoubtedly, their are many differences between males and females, which should be accepted. This ridiculous idea that women can copy and better everything a male does is really a form of adulation, although I'm sure most women wouldn't see it that way. One of our biggest deficits as women is that we are strongly driven by emotions, which can sometimes cause us to make decisions based strictly on the moments emotion rather than objectively analyzing a situation and tempering that with emotional input. Women seem to be far more fluid in their way of doing things and men are more linear in their task performing. Women are more prone to drama and men far less so(although that could be changing). Of course, there are always exceptions.
    Oh, for god sake. You are asking me where I got the idea women work twice as hard, contesting it, you tell me that stats can be manipulated, and then you go on a spree of insubstatiated women behavior as being prone to drama, emotional, yourself generalising quite a lot while acusing me of doing it. etc etc.

    It may be your behavior, but certainly not the behavior of the thousands of women and men I met in my life, clerks, secretaries, managers, and a quite a few high level professionals.

    This is where I observed the quantities of work of females versus males collegues (not all males, but a good 60% same work load more pay or less work load more Pay).. at their workplace. and I know about every profession salaries in Canada as well as the split between women and men.

    I did not need stats because I observed it, but the stats confirm my observations. Good.

    Why don’t you do your own research before writing and trying to demolish someone’s else writings based on facts.

    Women do not need this attitude from a peer towards their own gender, and men do not need that either, it does not help either gender.

    Facing reality is much more helping for both sexes
    Last edited by Flash; 7th August 2018 at 08:07.
    How to let the desire of your mind become the desire of your heart - Gurdjieff

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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    Quote Posted by A Voice from the Mountains (here)
    Greybeard, what policies or other influences do you think are responsible for the erosion of gender roles in your lifetime?
    Basically materialism.
    We are fed a diet of advertising which implies you will be respected, loved, happy,special if you buy our product.

    Sex sells---look at the videos of girl singers--soft porn.
    Young girls want to be successful in this field and buy their clothes and wear them like the pop idols.
    Male singers much the same--you have to tick all the boxes to get a hit record.
    A disposable society.
    If you look at the likes of Roy Orbison --he just stood there and sung.
    Yes yes, it's as if TV is telling us what we're supposed to be like. I was fooled for a while too. You probably remember when porn had pubic hair in it (I'm not old enough to remember ha ha). Well now you never see pubic hair in porn - and why is this, I wonder cynically?

    I laughed real hard at the comment about Roy Orbison, thanks for that!

    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    The state will provide for a young single mother.
    So for some unhappy at home its a temptation to get pregnant and get a place of their own--man is surplus to requirements in some cases.
    Job done--where is the mutual respect, support and caring in that.

    I m probably talking about exceptions to the rule.
    There are many young people who look for a loving long term relationship and respect their partner.

    It is as it is.

    Chris
    How revolting. Surplus... I can think of it from the woman's perspective too, and he's not just surplus - he's also a source of child support payments. When I think of women plotting against men in this way, it kind of makes me sick.

    I see it happening, I see the disdain for one another. But you're right, those are the exceptions - the "odd ones". You know there's something wrong when the basketball players need to take their condoms with them when they leave...

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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    I concur with both sexes wanting to be treated with respect.

    Problematic nowadays is probably also how media including social, dictate this perception of respect.
    Sometimes, when I turn off my brain, and I put on some or other reality show, I see all these...clones of men and women and they're constantly fighting with one another: women with women, men with women, men with men.

    Lots of fighting, also about hurt feelings and respect. They use sentences like: You're not showing any respect, that was so disrespectful of you, don't talk to me like that, NEVER talk to me like that, you don't talk to a woman like that, who do you think you are coming in like that and talking to me like that, oh and a horrible amount of swearing too...

    So what I'm trying to say is, if you're a youngster and you look at how gender roles are presented in shows like that and you copy that into whatever social relationship...I don't know, it just doesn't seem to promote dialogue or mutual understanding, with each party simply barking - and quite inelegantly at that too - they want to be respected...NOW.

    But what do youngsters perceive as respectful treatment?
    Would the previous generations have felt equally respected under those terms?

    Respect is - despite a fixed set of generally agreed upon "manners" - a fluid concept.

    Personally, I think it would help a lot if people would be more patient with one another and not so quickly jump into defence. In a climate of patience there is also room for a learning trajectory that will allow you to learn what a relationship at hand requires to be perceived as respectfull by all its participants.

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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    When a man is fully supported by a woman he becomes more productive, works harder, because he has reason to be.
    A woman’s appreciation is a great motivator to most men.
    In the same way when a woman is fully appreciate valued and respected by a man then you have a valuable family unit.
    The children grow up in a caring environment and will do the same when they have children.
    The community benefits from those with stable caring relationships.

    Chris
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    Being some what contraversal and frankly stirring it a little--smiling.
    I note that mot respondents are female and thats great.

    However It seems that men have become some what apologetic for being men.
    Of course there can be valid reason for apology--even being contrite but!!!!
    Men step up to the plate here--lol

    Germaine Greer said "You cant blame men for being men"

    I would like to remind that here is nothing personal--you are not your opinion
    People may disagree --best of friends do but the disagreement is with the opinion.
    Never a need to defend an opinion.

    Chris

    Ps many a true word said in song

    Billy Currington -- Off My Rocker

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WdmjT62Kuc
    Last edited by greybeard; 8th August 2018 at 07:13.
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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    Being some what contraversal and frankly stirring it a little--smiling.
    I note that mot respondents are female and thats great.

    However It seems that men have become some what apologetic for being men.
    Of course there can be valid reason for apology--even being contrite but!!!!
    Men step up to the plate here--lol

    Germaine Greer said "You cant blame men for being men"
    I realize this is Hollywood, but it's also a pretty accurate depiction of how men used to be in this country, before Zionists flooded our country with feminism and soy.



    I love these old westerns for reminding us what kind of people founded our nations, and giving us positive examples of masculine role models, instead of these fake Hollywood feminists you see all over TV today who are raping people behind closed doors, or these pansies like Justin Trudeau who spend all day apologizing for being born with a penis.

    Notice that there is a healthy and principled "boys, have at it" attitude throughout the clip.

    Men used to follow value and honor principles, like:

    1) You never hit a woman. Women are to be protected, and only cowards hit women.
    2) You never shoot an unarmed man, for the same reason. Only cowards do that.
    3) You give the opportunity for a fair fight. You never shoot a man in the back.
    4) You fight your own battles, and give others the dignity and respect to fight their own too.
    5) Authority is flexible and equanimous, and doesn't have to be heavy-handed to get its point across. It leaves room for the community to be able to police itself, which is infinitely more democratic than allowing a group of thugs to go around beating and arresting people on a whim, like all of the corrupt police departments in big cities do today.

    My great grandpa used to run a ferry across a river. He once punched a man in the face and knocked him into the river just for refusing to stop cussing in front of a woman. And I respect him for that. No one got the law involved, because the guy deserved it, and the law wouldn't have done anything anyway. Today they'd probably lock him up for 6 months and apologize to the loud mouth. That's a woman's idea of justice, or a beta male.

    A lot of people today would find the very idea of punching someone in the face horrifying today, as if it's the worst thing that could ever befall someone (unless they're "punching a Nazi" of course), but then again a lot of women also complain about chivalry being dead too. You can't have it both ways, because real chivalry means protecting women from unpleasant experiences.

    And that's not a bad thing. That's something that men can take pride in, something to inspire them, something to make them into better people.

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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    I appreciate your post A Voice from the Mountains.
    "Authority" via the law wants to control every situation by rules and regulation.
    What you said about your great grandpapa seems to me to be the way it should be cept im not into physical violence.
    Your 5 points I agree with.

    chris
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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    By coincidence there are several threads now on the topic the erosion of masculinity.
    This thread touches on this too.
    Chris
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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    Fear driven
    Divide and conquer.

    What was once considered banter --flirting-- is now--you tell me.
    In my youth young women were well able to counter unwanted attention--look after them selves.
    Obviously there are exceptions to every blanket statement.

    However fear is the biggest controller used by the manipulating powers.
    For the greater good of the human race!!! Oh Yeah!!!
    Well if you believe that, you have really fallen for the lie.

    C
    Last edited by greybeard; 12th August 2018 at 07:16.
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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    For all those who are interested in this important topic, here's a companion thread:

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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    I can see how part of this came about.
    Career women perceived that in order to hold a management position they had to compete with men.
    So basically they became like men in many ways.
    Some men became the "House husband"
    Doing all the things that women used to do at home
    Now if you have skill with people, can sell yourself, be internet and laptop competent, then it does not matter if you are female or male.
    Just so long as you can do the job.

    Before men were very much respected as tradesmen.
    They identified strongly with their occupation and the skill there in.
    Not quite the same respect, in this day and age, for office managers--male or female.

    Men used to be able to fix the family car--no matter what went wrong --fitting new parts.
    Now you need special tools and the car engine is run by a computer.
    So men felt valued and respected.

    Women also were respected greatly--they made clothes, knitted, fed the family.
    In short they were looked up to by males.

    Thats the thought of today.
    Chris
    Last edited by greybeard; 12th August 2018 at 19:21.
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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    There's a shrink who's been on the air for over 40 years. Some of you may have heard of her when several years ago some little liberal race baiter tried to frame her for being racist and the lib media took the ball and ran with it as they have always hated her traditional values. Anyhow she's in her '70s and going strong on sirius radio.

    She would not only agree with the repulsive trend being spoken about here but she considers the situation dire as she listens to thousands of people call in to her show, mainly marrieds with children but all kinds of relationship problems.

    I'm only mentioning her as she is giving a 6 week video course in:

    "The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands"

    as she feels feminism has produced women who don't know how to be a wife. You may want to check it out and pass it on if you are trying to relate to a Fembot of any degree. The ad is on the first page of her site. https://www.drlaura.com

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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    I had to get a girlfriend from Brazil to find someone even remotely feminine, who enjoys cooking and wears dresses instead of basketball shorts and jeans. She's into all the kinds of dainty things you'd traditionally think of as feminine. She even mocks American women for wearing basketball shorts and jeans, but that's the state of the modern West.

    Henry Kissinger, btw, does not consider South America part of the Western world. Maybe this is part of the reason why: they haven't been brainwashed into turning their women into wannabe men.

    Asian women are also still extremely feminine, at least by modern Western standards.

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    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    Humans are a bunch of hypocrites

    The state wants to put everything in a box.
    Anything out with the box is judged as unacceptable.
    That's a tool of separation--suits the so called elite who do what they want anyway.

    As far as relationships go monogamy is seen to be judged the right relationship, polygamy not right and so on.
    Polygamy worked for quite a few--even the wives and children seemed as happy with that at least as happy as a "normal"marriage
    It seems almost ok to have a mistress but not more than one wife.

    Pop stars seemed to attract girls out for a one night stand with some one famous.
    The girls knew exactly what they were getting into.

    Society seems to favour men sowing their wild oats--women condemned as ****s.
    That really is a paradox.

    Chris
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Avalon Member Pam's Avatar
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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    Quote Posted by Flash (here)
    Quote Posted by peterpam (here)
    Quote Posted by Flash (here)
    your text is, to me it seems, a dreamed of text, not ever near the reality.

    Even in old times, men who where men, following your definition, were a very tiny tiny minority, mostly from the higher class, which had money and food.

    the staving masses or those who had to work hard never had the time and energy left to be that feminine or masculine. They were just surviving with quite primitive means.

    To better describe:

    Men were working hard in the woods or hunting. If they were not, their family would starve, which many many family did because their men would be sleazy or drunk bas..., those wifes would have to work double for their children.

    Women had no time for anything else than cooking and washing and being pregnant therefore taking care of a trolley of children, if not dying during delivery of one of them (30% of women would die giving birth). Believe me, after a few years of this, forget the 'feminine' look or attitude (which is a cultural concept anyhow, at least the way you describe it).

    In most untouched societies, women still pair together for survival and help each other, not having that much from their men anyhow.

    To me, after many years on this planet, I perceive us, humans, as in the same mammal make up as other mammals, like lions, where the female does most of the work (hunting for lions) and the male rest and sleep.

    All todays stats says the same: women make 30% less than men on average, and work twice as hard in the workforce, which in fact makes a 70% differential. It was also that way in the old time. I have seen it my whole life. Very few woman really have the steady support of their male, independently of the culture, civilisation, or Rockerfellers of this world - the latter only utilised a pre-existing make up.

    Maybe what you have said is true in your experience, but mine doesn't bear out what you are saying in the least. How do you know women work twice as hard in the workplace? How would anyone know?I certainly have not seen this to be true and I am a woman. Your 30% less salary stat is bogus, at least in the US. It is very easy to manipulate statistics. There are distinct differences between the genders. You have described some of them in your post. Who was it that was out hunting food? Males. Why not the females if they are so hard working? Because they were the ones that had the kids, and nurtured them. Women do not have the strength, nor the aggressive tendencies that men can muster to hunt, generally speaking.

    Your vast generalization the very few women have the steady support of their male, does the male have the steady support of the female, or have you even considered this?

    Undoubtedly, their are many differences between males and females, which should be accepted. This ridiculous idea that women can copy and better everything a male does is really a form of adulation, although I'm sure most women wouldn't see it that way. One of our biggest deficits as women is that we are strongly driven by emotions, which can sometimes cause us to make decisions based strictly on the moments emotion rather than objectively analyzing a situation and tempering that with emotional input. Women seem to be far more fluid in their way of doing things and men are more linear in their task performing. Women are more prone to drama and men far less so(although that could be changing). Of course, there are always exceptions.
    Oh, for god sake. You are asking me where I got the idea women work twice as hard, contesting it, you tell me that stats can be manipulated, and then you go on a spree of insubstatiated women behavior as being prone to drama, emotional, yourself generalising quite a lot while acusing me of doing it. etc etc.

    It may be your behavior, but certainly not the behavior of the thousands of women and men I met in my life, clerks, secretaries, managers, and a quite a few high level professionals.

    This is where I observed the quantities of work of females versus males collegues (not all males, but a good 60% same work load more pay or less work load more Pay).. at their workplace. and I know about every profession salaries in Canada as well as the split between women and men.

    I did not need stats because I observed it, but the stats confirm my observations. Good.

    Why don’t you do your own research before writing and trying to demolish someone’s else writings based on facts.

    Women do not need this attitude from a peer towards their own gender, and men do not need that either, it does not help either gender.

    Facing reality is much more helping for both sexes

    I believe that women do need this attitude from a peer. The attitude is about balance and respect for all, acknowledging differences and accepting them.

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