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    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    Perversion has nothing to do with being heterosexual, lesbian or gay --these are natural orientation--born with.
    Perversion is extreme and controlling.
    Chris
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Avalon Member Pam's Avatar
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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    Quote Because what I'm seeing here is fear. Not an academic response, but a frightened response
    Quote This is fear. Reacting on fear is not reacting from sanity
    Are you suggesting there is a lack of sanity in this thread?

    I for one am very comfortable with my gender. I am a balanced androgynous person. I believe I coined the phrase, as it describes me perfectly. A person that has well balanced masculine and feminine tendencies finds that gender is not an issue. Although physically I am a female, I have no particular attraction to either gender. If I am attracted to someone, it is not based on their gender. I can enjoy sex if I choose to, which would only be with someone of either gender that I really care about, but I have no preoccupation with it and could easily do without. I have even taken a couple tests that are supposed to show you your level of feminine/ masculine traits and one time I scored a 50% and one a 51%. I take that with a grain of salt, but it backs up what I already know about myself. I do not talk about this with anyone because it is a non issue. I only bring it up because it is pertinent to the discussion. I feel very fortunate that I can appreciate both genders without a preoccupation with either. I suspect that I have far more comfort with gender than most of the population. I am able to have what I believe is a balance perspective about both. In fact, I have never really understood those that are preoccupied with it, there is so much more to life. I believe that the more a person is preoccupied with gender the more imbalanced they are regarding gender.That is strictly my personal observation and have no way to verify that.

    My interest in this thread has nothing to do with fear. I am interested in the politics of gender as it is being used to manipulate a society. I believe this is a planned manipulation using the MSM, academia and social media to spread the propaganda of the virtues of victimhood and identity politics. I believe that most of those promoting the manipulation via these methods are as brainwashed as those they are brainwashing. I think they feel they are encouraging some sort of equality. I also believe the religion of political correctness is promoted to allow censorship through self censoring, a most clever strategy.

    At the end of the day my concern about this manipulation is about the division it appears to be creating. I don't give a rip, personally about anyone's sexual preference or if they are mature, changing their gender. Traditional families are fine with me, any type of cohesive unit is fine with me, what I don't like is pitting one form of sexuality or one gender against another. I don't like blaming individuals based on gender and race for something that happened in the past. I'm kind of old fashioned, I believe in "live and let live".
    Last edited by Pam; 18th August 2018 at 22:34.

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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    Quote Posted by Hazelfern (here)
    Quote So to sum up:

    Homosexuality is nonetheless heavily dependent upon social conditioning and is not a biological function.
    You strike me as smart enough to not actually believe that.
    Are you really incapable of considering that you could be wrong about this?

    I understand that the MSM has been hammered studies that purport to show that this is an inborn trait, but if you really believe that, then why are so many Gen Z'ers identifying as non-straight? About 1/3 of them altogether. That's an enormously greater rate than previous generations. So if they are simply born that way, why are there all of a sudden a ton of them being born now? Can you give me a biological explanation for it?


    Quote Posted by hermit (here)
    Because what I'm seeing here is fear. Not an academic response, but a frightened response.

    So, why does questioning the ideas of masculine and feminine cause fear responses in people?
    Well let me ask you: why does pedophilia cause fear in parents?

    Is it because the parents are simply bigots and small-minded? After all, do children not love their parents? So why can't they love other adults too?

    Isn't it natural for children to love adults? Just as it's natural for people to be born in the wrong body and feel it necessary to have their genitals surgically removed?

    So maybe pedophiliaphobes are bigots too and simply feel threatened because the world is progressing towards a brighter future, where children can have romantic relationships with adults and everyone accepts it and it's okay.

    What's wrong with that argument?

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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    Mountain,

    Now you are conflating being transgender with pedophilia, while confusing the concept of love with sexual expression and orientation. That's what's wrong with that argument. I'm a big fan of Jordan Peterson--not a knee jerk politically correct individual. I like to understand how why and where ludicrous movements in academia get started. They don't arise out of thin air as nutty and Swiftian as they appear, at least to me.

    The reason more kids are identifying as non-straight, might be because the in- utero environment for many of them may have changed. Sperm counts have dropped by a tremendous amount in young men, too. All kinds of unusual phenomena around gender is showing up in the wild as well. Frogs with extra gonads or none, etc...

    So...apologies to Hermit (and Kermit) for responding but feel you have to dial back your outrage a bit.

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  8. Link to Post #105
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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Now you are conflating being transgender with pedophilia, while confusing the concept of love with sexual expression and orientation. That's what's wrong with that argument.
    And perhaps people are also conflating the idea of biological gender with mental health issues. Most people here seem to be assuming that homosexuality is purely a biological function, but I've never seen any proof of that.

    I personally believe that transvestites, for example, do in fact have mental disorders and need some form of therapy before they do something that they will regret for the rest of their lives. They often deeply regret surgically removing their genitals and have an almost 50% suicide rate. Again, these people need therapists, not surgeons. I'm not as much afraid of them as I feel sorry for their tragic situation.

    Quote The reason more kids are identifying as non-straight, might be because the in- utero environment for many of them may have changed. Sperm counts have dropped by a tremendous amount in young men, too. All kinds of unusual phenomena around gender is showing up in the wild as well. Frogs with extra gonads or none, etc...
    I'm sure that's part of the equation too, the warfare on our endocrine system. But that is a result of polluting our bodies with toxins, and there is no "gay gene."

    So why do you think those in power have "allowed" (actively promoted) this situation to develop into such an assault on our endocrine systems? Because they love us so much that they want us to experience the wonderful utopia of a world filled with 1/3 homosexuals? Does that sound like something they would do to improve the quality of life in Western civilization, as if that has anything at all to do with what they want for us?

    More likely the youngest generation is simply going to be used as the stepping-stone to accepting presentations such as this:




    But when it comes to pedophilia specifically, do you think it's right for parents to be afraid of pedophiles? Or is their fear simply rooted in bigotry and misunderstanding? Really, I want you to think about this. Could fear possibly play any healthy role at all in protecting future generations from abusive behaviors such as this?

    People are afraid of letting children play alone outside too, or play with snakes or wild animals. Is all fear automatically intolerant and irrational? Why do humans experience emotions such as concern and fear in the first place? Is there any biological need for it at all? Perhaps those who are afraid of murders, rapists, and terrorists are also problematic? Or where do we draw the line, and how can we justify it?


    This is also worth considering:




    Notice that the heterosexual rate children having sexual contact with adults is 2%, which is still alarmingly high if you ask me.

    The same rate for lesbian parents is 23%.

    Children are also forced into sex at a rate of over 3 times higher when raised by lesbian parents, and are less likely to marry when they grow up. They've also thought about suicide at more than double the heterosexual rate. Again, an elevated risk of suicide appears. And I don't buy the argument that it is simply because of bullying, because slaves endure the worst bullying of all and it doesn't make them commit suicide at such high rates. There is something else going on.

    Statistics on domestic abuse and violence are also significantly higher in lesbian households, than heterosexual households.

    This could also go back to the assault on the endocrine system, because people today often can't even handle certain social interactions, whereas our ancestors had to live daily with conditions that most of us would find intolerable today. A lot of our ability to deal with stress has to do with our hormones.

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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    Transvestism is a kink, a paraphilia. I think you meant transgender. And that figure of 50% of surgically altered males regret their choice and commit suicide? Where are the peer reviewed studies on that?

    I will refrain from commenting more as you seem to like to fight and I won't engage you.

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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Transvestism is a kink, a paraphilia. I think you meant transgender.
    I intentionally avoid the ever-changing name game of politically correct ideology.

    The word "transgender" is based on the idea that people can be born into the "wrong" body, as if a mistake was made at birth.

    Transvestites is really what they are, because it's really just men pretending to be women and vice-versa. And then sometimes unfortunately they decide to get surgery to mutilate their genitals. Without all of the flowery language of political correctness, this is really what we're talking about, and we may as well be frank about it.

    Quote And that figure of 50% of surgically altered males regret their choice and commit suicide? Where are the peer reviewed studies on that?
    Once source very quickly found using a search engine. Here you go:

    Quote The Transgender Suicide Rate Isn’t Due To Discrimination

    Chelsea Manning—who became a male-to-female transgender after going to prison as Bradley Manning for giving reams of classified information to WikiLeaks—allegedly attempted suicide earlier this week. Manning was taken to a prison hospital after an apparent attempted hanging.

    This is not a surprise: “transgender” individuals have an alarmingly high suicide rate, somewhere north of 40 percent by some reliable estimates. A variety of explanations are often given for this astronomical figure, chief among them that transgender people are driven to kill themselves in such large numbers because they suffer from discrimination, bigotry and hatred.

    Zack Ford of ThinkProgress blames the high suicide rate on “rejection, discrimination, violence, harassment, and the negative life circumstances that result from such treatment.” Last month the New England Journal of Medicine attributed to “substantial discrimination” a great many negative psychological conditions among transgender individuals, including a higher suicide rate.

    The Comparatively Low Black Suicide Rate

    There are two problems with this theory. The first is that it utterly ignores the most salient feature of transgender individuals: that they are mentally ill and need serious treatment. This is not a moral or ethical judgment. It is, rather, a fact. Individuals who believe they are a different sex than that of their biology are psychologically ill—self-evidently so—and one would quite reasonably expect a higher suicide rate from a portion of the population that suffers from so significant a mental illness (particularly a mental illness it is fashionable to indulge rather than treat).

    The second problem is that the discrimination theory of suicide does not hold up when compared to other minority groups who suffer disproportionate real and perceived amounts of bigotry and negative discrimination. The Centers for Disease Control’s numbers on suicide indicate that the highest rates of suicide over the past 15 years or so belong to…white people. In contrast, in most of the years surveyed black people had the lowest suicide rate among all ethnicities. White suicide actually rose in the period 2000-2014.

    If discrimination were truly a motivating factor for suicide, you would expect the black suicide rate to be a good deal higher than it is, if not higher outright than the white rate: blacks report overwhelmingly higher rates of perceived racial discrimination than whites, and it is reasonable to assume that actual instances of discrimination against blacks are a good deal higher than those against whites. Yet the suicide rate of the former remains stubbornly lower than that of the latter.

    It’s the Mental Illness, Y’all

    Why? Because discrimination is almost certainly a nondeterminate factor in general suicide rates. Mental illness, on the other hand, is very clearly a motivating factor in a great many suicides: the rate of successful suicide is extremely correlative with conditions of mental illness. Since transgenderism is a deleterious psychological affliction, it is wholly unsurprising to find higher rates of suicide among that class of people.

    A sane society would be advocating for robust, ameliorative psychological therapy to steer transgender people away from their delusions. Instead, we indulge this sickness on an industrial scale, building television shows around the phenomenon and promoting it even unto the point of gross caricature.

    Transgender individuals are precious, irreplaceable children of God. They deserve better than the cultural zeitgeist that has decided a sky-high suicide rate is an acceptable externality of modern-day progressive sexual ideology. Unfortunately, as Manning shows, the feel-good politics of liberals often takes precedence over the lives of the vulnerable.
    http://thefederalist.com/2016/07/07/...iscrimination/


    Another source:

    Quote Suicide attempts are alarmingly common among transgender individuals such as Lampe; 41% try to kill themselves at some point in their lives, compared with 4.6% of the general public. The numbers come from a study by the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention and the Williams Institute, which analyzed results from the National Transgender Discrimination Survey. Researchers are preparing to launch another version of the online survey on Wednesday.
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...mpts/31626633/



    Quote I will refrain from commenting more as you seem to like to fight and I won't engage you.
    No, no. I would never dare fight for anything, least of all the health and well-being of future generations.


    President of the American College of Pediatricians Dr. Michelle Cretella on Transgenderism: A Mental Illness is Not a Civil Right


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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    This post was beside the point
    Last edited by AutumnW; 19th August 2018 at 02:21. Reason: Off Topic. Not applicable

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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    When we broke up he cried. He also cried when I made broccoli instead of mashed potatoes for dinner. He cried all the time and it wasn't a hushed manly cry but a wailing like a banshee, cat through a band saw type of cry. And yet...he was completely heterosexual. Nothing against guys who cry but that was so strange.
    It fits everything we are discussing in this thread.

    "When men were men & women were feminine"

    As in, men aren't men anymore, and women aren't feminine anymore. Or at least that's the trend.

    A trend which has emerged during the same period as an enormous amount of corruption and Matrix-like social control structures the likes of which the human race has never seen before. It's not a coincidence.







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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...nti-lgbt-group

    Did you read this headline and think I was accusing The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) of opposing the LGBT community? That’s the problem. A small anti-LGBT group called the “American College of Pediatricians (ACP)” created a name that is easily confused with the AAP, the largest pediatrics organization in the country.

    This group spearheaded by Dr. Cretella is a small splinter from the larger organization, 'American Academy of Pediatrics.' They left the larger organization, after the larger organization supported studies that concluded gay parents did not have a harmful impact on their children.
    Last edited by AutumnW; 19th August 2018 at 02:31.

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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    [QUOTE=A Voice from the Mountains;1242852]
    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    When we broke up he cried. He also cried when I made broccoli instead of mashed potatoes for dinner. He cried all the time and it wasn't a hushed manly cry but a wailing like a banshee, cat through a band saw type of cry. And yet...he was completely heterosexual. Nothing against guys who cry but that was so strange.
    It fits everything we are discussing in this thread.

    "When men were men & women were feminine"

    As in, men aren't men anymore, and women aren't feminine anymore. Or at least that's the trend.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Autumn says:

    Voice, So cause for some compassion and deep respect for those who are wired differently. And really, who cares if some people opt for surgery. Nobody is hauling YOU into a cold antechamber and grabbing your nads, so relax already. As far as telling little kids they can choose their gender, I don't know. Sex ed should probably come later, all of it. The birds, the bees, the frogs.

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    Scotland Avalon Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    I stick with gender--be it male, female or anything else is natural--its down to the balance of chromosomes.

    There seems to be more gays now because its safer for them to come out --not suppress their sexuality.

    Some have seriously tried to make traditional marriage work and eventually ended up with a same sex relationship.
    There is homosexuality in the animal realm.

    Im happily male yet I have a lot of feminine traits.
    So in some circumstances the strong male comes out but in others the feminine trait is the main response.

    I dont think anyone is 100% male, female or other.
    Some Greek soldiers seemingly had young male to see to their needs, in return they were taught to be soldiers.
    Homosexuality has been a fact since the dawn of time.

    Regardless all these different "lifestyles" are there--they exist--no point in trying to change that.

    As a parallel im a sober alcoholic--I believe I was born one--its not learned--my parents rarely drank.
    No one would be one by choice--believe me.
    Even now after 45 years of sobriety Im aware that I cant drink safely--not one.
    I dont get how most people can go out and drink socially just one o two drinks.
    I see that as a waste of money--why stop short of the high?
    Some of course would say its a mental illness --lack of will power --its not
    A sober alcoholic, having been there, will know what I am saying is true--others may not.
    Personal experience,
    I dont know what it is to be gay--so cant give a valid comment.

    This thread sure has gone far beyond my "expectation" and is a good thing.

    Chris
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    My views were probably quite rigid till I went through alcoholism.
    Anyway people do fear anything different which is why young "potentially" gay children go through hell in school.

    One of my friend's son is gay and now in a same sex relationship.
    I watched him grow up and it was obvious he was different--taking great care to look "good"
    At the age 16 or there abouts he was very good looking ina feminie way--hair imaculate cut in a girls style.
    In school age 12/13 or there about, he got beat up by "male" class mates.
    Different is prone to this.

    Chris
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    I happened to notice on the TV guide women wrestling STV thats a main TV channel here.
    I had a quick view.
    Mid day, peakv iewing
    Im not fond of wrestling or boxing- im not inclined to watch violent things--for fun!!!!
    The women certainly were not "feminine" what ever that is !!
    Female boxing seemingly also gets a lot of viewers.

    I just dont get it.
    However I accept that people are free to do what they want--their choice.

    Chris
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    I stick with gender--be it male, female or anything else is natural--its down to the balance of chromosomes.

    There seems to be more gays now because its safer for them to come out --not suppress their sexuality.

    Some have seriously tried to make traditional marriage work and eventually ended up with a same sex relationship.
    There is homosexuality in the animal realm.

    Im happily male yet I have a lot of feminine traits.
    So in some circumstances the strong male comes out but in others the feminine trait is the main response.

    I dont think anyone is 100% male, female or other.
    Some Greek soldiers seemingly had young male to see to their needs, in return they were taught to be soldiers.
    Homosexuality has been a fact since the dawn of time.

    Regardless all these different "lifestyles" are there--they exist--no point in trying to change that.

    As a parallel im a sober alcoholic--I believe I was born one--its not learned--my parents rarely drank.
    No one would be one by choice--believe me.
    Even now after 45 years of sobriety Im aware that I cant drink safely--not one.
    I dont get how most people can go out and drink socially just one o two drinks.
    I see that as a waste of money--why stop short of the high?
    Some of course would say its a mental illness --lack of will power --its not
    A sober alcoholic, having been there, will know what I am saying is true--others may not.
    Personal experience,
    I dont know what it is to be gay--so cant give a valid comment.

    This thread sure has gone far beyond my "expectation" and is a good thing.

    Chris
    Chris - get out of my head! This is exactly what I was thinking but you said better than I ever could.
    Thanks for that.

    I am glad we are on the same page.

    I was thinking about this idea of social programming and how it may affect the way that people behave.
    Not the type of 'programming' that has been pointed out as the root of all things amiss but plain old peer
    pressure and the attempts to fit in.
    As stereotypes fall away and people become freer to be who they really are, it's seems likely
    that 50% of the population would be in same sex partnerships.

    As a fellow AA'er I appreciate your comment that drinking to excess is also not a learned behavior.
    I do feel uncomfortable that it is lumped in as a mental health issue and that recovery has become
    a huge industry. - That is for another thread however.
    Last edited by Hazelfern; 19th August 2018 at 17:23.

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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    My mother worked for the civil service many moons ago.
    Her boss said "Can you cook?" she was in charge of statistics and very good with figures
    So she was asked to highlight the facts that suited--all else left out, ignored.

    Statistics are an indicator ---rarely that accurate---I prefer personal experience.
    Most stats are collected by --or for --firms that have a vested interest.
    an example---Vitamins/hemp proven not to work--in fact dangerous.
    Yet now hemp is being legalized, no doubt by the same companies that were instrumental in keeping it as illegal, money to be made.

    Good to be on the same page Hazelfern (a day at a time)
    Chris
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    I stumbled across this video today. I don't want to tell you anything about the video because I don't want to ruin it for you. She is an extraordinary human being.

    Happiness comes from within, nowhere else.

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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Voice, So cause for some compassion and deep respect for those who are wired differently.
    I have more compassion than you appreciate, especially for those whose hormones are being disrupted by chemicals they aren't even aware they're ingesting. I also feel very sorry for the mentally ill and how people take advantage of them to promote political ideologies.

    I care about these problems so much that I don't want to see this stuff normalized and swept under the rug as if we all just have to get used to eating and drinking atrazine now and accepting that screwed up endocrine systems are normal now and we should all just accept it.

    Quote And really, who cares if some people opt for surgery.
    Well, considering that almost half of them go on to try to kill themselves, I think any compassionate person should be concerned about this behavior. Why not normalize wrist-cutting while you're at it?

    Quote As far as telling little kids they can choose their gender, I don't know. Sex ed should probably come later, all of it. The birds, the bees, the frogs.
    Probably? You sound kind of ambivalent about the whole exposing pre-pubescent little kids to radical gender theories thing. A few more years of propaganda like the TED talk above and you might just be accepting of sexualizing kids for "romantic" relationships with adults. You already seem pretty open-minded to it, based on what you just said.

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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    Quote Posted by greybeard (here)
    I stick with gender--be it male, female or anything else is natural--its down to the balance of chromosomes.

    There seems to be more gays now because its safer for them to come out --not suppress their sexuality.
    Let's say that's correct. So Gen Z feels perfectly comfortable coming out as gay now, and that's why 1/3 of them don't identify as straight. So what you're suggesting is that all previous generations were also about 1/3 gay, and just hid it all this time?

    Just imagine how many gay founding fathers we must have had. Or all those John Wayne movies, which were packed with homosexuals and we just never realized it.

    No, I don't believe that is what is going on here. The chemical assaults on the body can't be ignored, and neither can the social propaganda over all these decades.


    Quote Some have seriously tried to make traditional marriage work and eventually ended up with a same sex relationship.
    I believe that is one of the main reasons people identify as homosexual, especially certain women. There is a tremendous amount of social pressure on people today through media and everything else, that if someone isn't incredibly sexually active, there's something wrong with them.

    I saw someone watching one of those degenerate Jerry Springer "baggage" shows not long ago, and one woman's "baggage" was that she hadn't had sex in five years. Prior to recent decades, that would have been a good thing that she wasn't sleeping around with everybody all the time outside of a serious relationship. But the audience actually jeered her for it! Of course, these are the people who were actually interested in sitting in on this show, which I would never have been. I just about laughed my ass off when they booed her though. I just can't help but see all of these people as really sick today, and all because of the way social programming has pushed them just in a few decades' time. Things have just become so perverted that people don't realize how far they've gone into "whore of Babylon" territory.

    You're old enough Greybeard, that you know what I mean. Can you imagine someone dating a woman, and reacting negatively when she doesn't sleep around with everybody?

    Anyway, I believe that same pressure does make a lot of people very insecure about themselves when they aren't able to get into long term relationships. And that pressure is very unhealthy and I believe it is probably also one of the contributing factors of why a lot of people begin identifying as homosexual, because homosexuals of either gender are well-known even in medical literature as sleeping around with an enormous number of people. It's almost as if they are trying to compensate for the healthier kinds of relationships that they are lacking.

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    Default Re: When men were men & women were feminine

    A Voice from the Mountains
    I tend not to take up a fixed position
    The moment you do know that you are identifying with an illusion
    That's from "A course in Miracles"

    A lot of what you posted I can see the logic of and of course the truth tends to lie some where in the middle.
    So you may or not be right in the essence of what you post.

    I had a woman friend and we talked about gay men.
    Her thought was that, females had given some men such a hard time that they by choice opted for a same sex relationship.
    Same could be said of women getting a mental or physical beating turning to their own sex for "companionship".
    Some psychologist have said that many are bi-sexual.
    If thats the case it would explain how some can----go the other way--if opposite relationships are not working.

    My main thread is on Non-duality---which basically says that freewill is limited and being old a grey--Im inclined to go along with that.
    Ive got into relationships knowing full well what I was getting into---great spiritual growth through having to surrender to what might have been seen to be unfair treatment and little respect for me.
    Great male ego reduction.

    Chris
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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