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Thread: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

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    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Dennis, many thanks indeed for bumping this very interesting thread:

    I think the problem here is that language can be extremely powerful, and some words have been so totally misused or abused that their original meaning has been buried under a huge mudslide of political rhetoric.

    I might possibly be some kind of socialist, in the purest possible original terms, but I'd run a mile (or more!) rather than be tarred with that brush in these times.

    Socialists are the new Fascists. That's the problem.

    I prefer to call myself a Libertarian. (And, had I been a US voter last year, I'd have voted for Trump. There's absolutely no anomaly there.)

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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Quote Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)
    Resurrection of this topic
    Dennis
    Glad you resurrected this topic, it is certainly worthy of discussion. I think I get where you heading which (I hope) is don't focus on the word socialism, focus on how we want to move the world forward. A weighty topic for sure but it is also full of peril. No matter how we slice it someone has to be in charge and therein lies the problem. On paper Marxism and Socialism look great. Essentially redistributing wealth (Another hair-trigger lexicon - redistributing wealth) so that no one is left behind and suffering. On the surface that looks very appealing especially in wealthy countries but in reality, it has never worked.

    You might argue that some of the Scandinavian countries, Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Finland all have some degree of socialism and it seems to be working fairly well. These are wealthy industrious countries that have been very homogenous for a long time, the ability to redistribute wealth is under attack largely but not exclusively due to immigration. The system becomes unsustainable once you have more taking out than putting in. This is a hot topic and has been for while in Scandinavia. Also just as a side note (I am not saying this is a bad thing) Scandinavian countries cut the wealth off from the top of the pyramid and give it to those that are at the bottom. This has a tendency to remove overachievement or excellence. You rarely find Steve Jobs, Gates or Elon Musk. Scandinavians are smart and they are certainly hard-working but the incentive for achieving (to some degree) has been removed.

    It seems that all the possible 'isms' are corrupt or can easily and almost always become corrupt in short order. I believe that this stems back to mankind's early days on earth. The "guy" who was the strongest always became the leader of the tribe. It certainly did not mean he was the smartest or had the best ideas he was simply stronger than anyone else. We are still running the world the same way, the man or woman that is the strongest at raising money, understanding the political nuances and the strongest orator is much more likely to win rather than the person who knows nothing about politics, afraid to speak in public and raising money even though they may have the best ideas.

    Also, I don't think our genetic makeup has much in the way of altruism, it is a learned trait. Putting altruistic practices into society only comes through wisdom and time on earth. So this leads me to how we can accomplish your people-ism or citizen-centric-ism. I think we should get away from one President, Priminister or Dictator and move to a group of elders that is comprised of men and women 65 years or older that rotate them in and out of government leadership every 3-5 years. We would benefit from their wisdom and they would be in the twilight of their lives and hopefully will be not chasing power and money.

    Whether we like it or not the planet is on an unstoppable march to a one-world government. The problems, either real or perceived are now global in nature (climate, immigration, pandemics, overpopulation, nuclear weapons, artificial intelligence etc) and in most peoples minds they will eventually want a global authority to handle these global problems. So we better start getting our governance right before we get to a one-world government. We better make some changes before we reach the point of one world order because putting that much power and money in the hands of one person should scare everyone on earth.

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    United States Avalon Member Dennis Leahy's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Dennis, many thanks indeed for bumping this very interesting thread:

    I think the problem here is that language can be extremely powerful, and some words have been so totally misused or abused that their original meaning has been buried under a huge mudslide of political rhetoric.

    I might possibly be some kind of socialist, in the purest possible original terms, but I'd run a mile (or more!) rather than be tarred with that brush in these times.

    Socialists are the new Fascists. That's the problem.
    ...
    "...some kind of socialist, in the purest possible original terms..."
    Exactly, Bill. And I know you and I are far from alone. There may be a few shills for the plutocrats here, and a few honestly completely selfish people here at Avalon that only care about themselves and not others (they are here, in a social setting, for self-aggrandizement, I'd guess), but I figure the VAST majority here are my compatriots, my fellow warriors, against the 'bad guys' of planet Earth.

    We've got a problem recognizing it due to lexicon hijacking and manipulation, and the degrees of success of the propaganda of the bad guys, droning on ad infinitum. We also add to the fuzziness of visualizing who we're fighting against, who the enemy of most of mankind is, by speculating about and deflecting the onus onto the hidden layers of bad guys rather than the ones we can see and deal with.

    We're also all guilty of complicity with the bad guys, of acquiescing to the status quo of existing elite-centric hierarchical systems and participating in them, but that speaks to the depth and degree of their control over existing systems more than our willingness to consciously and overtly support sociopathic plutocrats.

    But the bottom line is that we're all united in spirit against the same malevolent overlords, the same bad guys (and their minions and systems.) Even the normies know it, on some level. This isn't one of those non-binary things: the plutocratic system exists and is the status quo, and our actions and intent either support that status quo or they don't. We individuals either fight against it or we don't. We individuals, united, have at least a theoretical chance of "rising like lions" and changing our shared paradigm, but alone we don't stand a chance.

    The people fighting for the people, against the sociopathic, malevolent, overlords. What do we call ourselves? I'm in that group. "We the people, for the people, united." The labels we call ourselves are immaterial, but we do need to be clear that we are united in opposition to the sociopathic, malevolent, overlords and their control systems. We have to recognize that shared, foundational, commonality. We need to celebrate it, nurture it, repeat and repeat our true narrative even as it is assailed by the minions of the overlords with their repeated and re-repeated false narrative. We also have to be smart enough to demote the priority of anything that emotionally divides "we the people, for the people, united" into sub-groups, fracturing us and diminishing our group power.


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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Western society is moving into the "green" stage of psychological development (spiral dynamics) which is about egalitarianism, equality, etc. BTW, thats why they are focusing on corrupting the green movement = egalitarianism, and the SJW lunacy/corruption is directed for our need to move into more equality.

    To make a green sustainable society, that does take a lot of cooperation and social effort. The next stage after that is the "yellow" stage of integration. The more complex society gets the more it needs integration. Social programs are a part of society integrating and cooperating. To me that is what socialism should mean.

    Socialism
    a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

    ^^To me, the problem is pretending the gov't is the people, when its more of the Ruling class using propaganda to create the illusion that it is us. So, gov't owning the means of production, distribution, etc. is not the community. lol That is the big scam giving it a bad name.

    It needs to be run by the community in a decentralized way, that no concentration of people control. Hopefully the Block chain can help with that.
    We didn't have the technology for the community to control these things, and go beyond the hierarchy of the top of the pyramid dominating. Hopefully, we soon will have the tech to change. Connect all the people to organize and create networks the gov't can't control without shutting down the machine.

    I'm starting to think that it would be good to evolve, so that capitalism remains at the top levels with smaller levels and businesses operated more socially (worker owned). But i am no political scientist.

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  9. Link to Post #125
    United States Avalon Member Dennis Leahy's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    ...what I'm trying to get to here is to recognize that, although the term "socialism" has been Orwellian-doublespeak flipped (it means "the people fighting for the people"), hopefully your underlying allegiance to the people has not also been flipped. Even if your mind has accepted a new definition for "socialism", and that it now means something awful, hopefully the monsters of mind control haven't also flipped your allegiance from fighting for the people.

    There's a reason that the word "socialism" has been targeted and has been flipped. It's social engineering (and it has been ongoing for a long time before the Internet.) They confused many people with this one. Hopefully, you, dear reader, are aligned with and fight for the people and not the status quo rulers of the world.

    Who are you fighting for? Who are you fighting against?


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    Canada Avalon Member Ernie Nemeth's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    In the last year I have been accosted twice. Once by a Middle Eastern new arrival. And today it was a young woke black dude. So I guess it depends on how you define 'the people'. Neither of these were that. They were both radicals with very messed up ideology. Neither realize they are merely pawns in a global chess game.
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    United States Avalon Member Dennis Leahy's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    In the last year I have been accosted twice. Once by a Middle Eastern new arrival. And today it was a young woke black dude. So I guess it depends on how you define 'the people'. Neither of these were that. They were both radicals with very messed up ideology. Neither realize they are merely pawns in a global chess game.
    Yeah, "the people" includes turds and gems and everything in between (most of whom are intellectually asleep), but... this doesn't mean that you do not recognize who the real enemy of mankind is, right?


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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    I feel you're leading me, Denis. But I'm game.

    Ultimately, the real enemy is evil, as in good vs. evil. Pragmatically and honestly I am my own worst enemy. In between these two there is a plethora of targets that one could call enemy, although each is merely a product of this society and in that regard blameless.
    Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water...Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend. Bruce Lee

    Free will can only be as free as the mind that conceives it.

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    United States Avalon Member Dennis Leahy's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    I feel you're leading me, Denis. But I'm game.

    Ultimately, the real enemy is evil, as in good vs. evil. Pragmatically and honestly I am my own worst enemy. In between these two there is a plethora of targets that one could call enemy, although each is merely a product of this society and in that regard blameless.
    Well, I may be 'leading', but then, you seem to be ducking and obfuscating the issue. This is about the people standing up for ourselves, fighting for ourselves, and exploring the word "socialism" that used to mean "the people fighting for the people." If you watch the first 2 parts of the documentary called "The Power Principle", you'll see that "the people fighting for the people (and against the corporate, neo-colonial, cabal that is the American Empire) knew themselves as "socialists" and were indeed the people fighting for the people.

    This really isn't confusing, it's the very straightforward, deliberate, rebranding of the word "socialism" to mean something other than what it has actually meant for 100 years. But, if we are going to discard the word "socialism" because the meaning has been flipped, we should still be smart enough not to discard the underlying meaning of social-ism: to recognize our alignment with "the people."


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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Here are the the views of a self proclaimed socialist, a very popular one at that with 1.1 million subscribers: (17 minutes)

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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Quote Posted by Gracy May (here)
    Here are the the views of a self proclaimed socialist, a very popular one at that with 1.1 million subscribers: (17 minutes)
    Literally capitalism at the end there when he talks about sponsors/Patreon, and how every click/dollar counts. So I'm not sure he knows what he's talking about.

    And that video doesn't really differ from say, a Ben Shapiro video, in that it's just partisan rhetoric in action - the bias is laid out in the first seconds and proceeds from there without deviation.

    I had to do a double take when, espousing the virtues of socialism, he said "we must be willing to try new ideas". What new Ideas? Socialism is anything but new. There are no new ideas in politics, only old regurgitated ideas. As Einstein said, insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

    I've said it many times, but this in my view is why socialism is a bad idea..

    People by and large are basically, in their core essence, envious, covetous, self-centred, and weak. They are weak because they have spent their entire existence aloof to, and in many respects ignorant of, their intrinsic Sovereign Power. Layer by layer it has been stripped away by the state, the church, and widespread media indoctrination.

    What the utopian socialist vision professes to aspire to is not possible with a thus disabled and enfeebled population. Just too many are unable to live moderately and self-sufficiently. When the state must step in to regulate how life is to be lived, they'll control the food, the housing, the healthcare, and the supply of income. That equals an erosion of personal freedom in my book. As a result, people become less responsible and even more dependent. It's a vicious circle. The people end up miserable and resentful, and that always ends badly.

    When any political systems fail, it is often not the fault of the system (as it appears on paper, socialism included), but the same variable of dysfunction: the shortcomings of those at the head of the table. The top end of the power curve always, always tends to distortion, exploitation, and elitism. Socialism isn't at fault, really, any more than capitalism is at fault. It's the seed of corruption and greed that blooms at the top of all hierarchical power structures. It's human bloody nature! If Jesus was put in charge of a socialist society I suspect it would, in theory, flourish. But in reality it wouldn't flourish, because Jesus wouldn't be in charge. By his very nature he shuns ego and the trappings of power. Inversely proportionate to Jesus are those who live solely for power, to control and dominate others. And these are the ones who end up seizing the reins of power in this world. ALWAYS. One never reaches a position of power without being corruptible.

    Which is why those who hold power are the least fit to wield it. Why does anyone think it would be any different with socialism? Expect the very worst individuals to be at the top of that regime like any other.

    I suspect, possibly, the only example of socialism at work in America right now is the Amish. They appear to live happily, safely, and productively, right? But how much of that is an illusion? In order for their system to work, you have to do this, you have to do that, and you cannot do this, and you cannot do that! In other words, the regime is all over your a$$ telling you how you must conform, and how you should and shouldn't live your life. No effin' thanks! I don't want anyone telling me what I can and cannot do. At least in a democracy your liberty remains intact, and you have the opportunity, with some dedication and hard work of course, to change your life, improve your circumstances, and advance to a better standard of living. You have freedom and you have choice, to go your own way and in your own time.

    I think Dennis's idea of socialism would only work if every individual in the collective was a hard-working, conscientious, morally advanced, spiritually aware, self-sufficient, self-moderating contributor - where there'd be no need for any government body at all, no bureaucrats either, and no lawyers. No money would be necessary, because everyone would be bartering for what they need with goods and/or services in a fair and equitable manner. There would be no lack, and therefore no want, and therefore no crime, either.

    Only with these conditions met would socialism work. And I would sign up to that! But short of a global shift in consciousness in order to meet those ideal conditions, socialism is no more than a pipe dream.

    I like the idea of renaming/rebranding the word "socialism". So I invent the word "civilism". Humanity needs to re-learn so many things that it has lost. First and foremost, how to be civil. That would be a good start.
    "When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace."
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    United States Avalon Member Dennis Leahy's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    The baby and the bathwater...

    You've heard the old saying, "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water!" There is something to be rejected, and something that is precious.

    The CONCEPT of social-ism (not Marx-ism) is that a society of humans maintains and uses a shared resource. Every tribal society for the past millions of years of humans recognized that there were resources that are shared resources. The spring, the stream, the river, the lake, the ocean, the forest, the fire pit, the food. If one powerful warrior rose up in a tribal society and declared that he took possession of the well, and that everyone else would have to trade him goods for water... how many nights would go by before the tribal society smashed his head with a rock while he was sleeping?

    I realize that the word "socialism" is contaminated, twisted, and Orwellian doublespoken, and really now is simply a pejorative term that's often used ridiculously misapplied to some person or movement that someone can't think of an appropriate term to describe.

    The US uses a blend of socialism (ssssh, don't tell anyone!) and capitalism, or a better way to say that is that US citizens share quite a bit of resources, infrastructure, and land, and also have the ability to purchase and solely own resources, infrastructure, and land. The "Elite" (Global Corporate Network) do not want shared resources, shared infrastructure, and shared land. They wish to possess these, and rent them back to us: "You will have nothing, and be happy."

    Hopefully, you won't have to say: "When they came and took the commons from us, I did not speak up, because I was manipulated into decrying anything that could be considered as "socialist."

    The political puppets of the "Elite" have been stealing co-owned resources, and selling them to the highest bidder. There are now US Interstate Toll Roads that have been sold to French and German corporations. A number of US major ports have been sold to the Chinese (governments? corporations?)

    From Marketwatch:
    ...the value of foreign-owned American assets climbed to $32.5 trillion in the second quarter..." "...outright ownership of a company by a foreign entity, which amounts to 20%..." Governments convert co-owned resources into corporate entities, and then sell the 'asset' to the highest bidder. It's not just foreign corporations, either, those thefts of the US commons by foreign entities simply seems more outrageous to me, but the bottom line is that whenever previously co-owned resources are appropriated and sold, they are no longer part of the commons.

    So, before you jump up and down decrying "socialism!", adjust your lexicon whatever way you need to to understand that having co-owned resources is a hell of a lot different than whatever the f-'d up new re-definition of "socialism" might have devolved into. A nation full of individuals who all live in self-sufficient ranches is a lovely fantasy, but societies are social gatherings of disparate people, gathered together to live, work, and play. 99.9% of the world's humans do not live on a self-sufficient ranch, nor is there any way to structure a nation or a world based on self-sufficient ranches. Humans are a social species, gathered together with other humans to survive and to thrive by sharing co-owned resources.

    Nobody wants fake 'socialism', your nation living under tyrannical authoritarian rule, one where the elite in power possess and control all of the resources. Be smart enough to recognize the principles of societal co-ownership of resources, life-critical resources - and call it something else other than 'socialism.' When you are jeering your understanding of the word "socialism", be sure to differentiate the word from the underlying principle of co-ownership. Throw out the bath water. Save the baby.


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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Quote Posted by Dennis Leahy (here)
    The baby and the bathwater...

    You've heard the old saying, "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water!" There is something to be rejected, and something that is precious.

    The CONCEPT of social-ism (not Marx-ism) is that a society of humans maintains and uses a shared resource. Every tribal society for the past millions of years of humans recognized that there were resources that are shared resources. The spring, the stream, the river, the lake, the ocean, the forest, the fire pit, the food. If one powerful warrior rose up in a tribal society and declared that he took possession of the well, and that everyone else would have to trade him goods for water... how many nights would go by before the tribal society smashed his head with a rock while he was sleeping?

    I realize that the word "socialism" is contaminated, twisted, and Orwellian doublespoken, and really now is simply a pejorative term that's often used ridiculously misapplied to some person or movement that someone can't think of an appropriate term to describe.

    The US uses a blend of socialism (ssssh, don't tell anyone!) and capitalism, or a better way to say that is that US citizens share quite a bit of resources, infrastructure, and land, and also have the ability to purchase and solely own resources, infrastructure, and land. The "Elite" (Global Corporate Network) do not want shared resources, shared infrastructure, and shared land. They wish to possess these, and rent them back to us: "You will have nothing, and be happy."

    Hopefully, you won't have to say: "When they came and took the commons from us, I did not speak up, because I was manipulated into decrying anything that could be considered as "socialist."

    The political puppets of the "Elite" have been stealing co-owned resources, and selling them to the highest bidder. There are now US Interstate Toll Roads that have been sold to French and German corporations. A number of US major ports have been sold to the Chinese (governments? corporations?)

    From Marketwatch:
    ...the value of foreign-owned American assets climbed to $32.5 trillion in the second quarter..." "...outright ownership of a company by a foreign entity, which amounts to 20%..." Governments convert co-owned resources into corporate entities, and then sell the 'asset' to the highest bidder. It's not just foreign corporations, either, those thefts of the US commons by foreign entities simply seems more outrageous to me, but the bottom line is that whenever previously co-owned resources are appropriated and sold, they are no longer part of the commons.

    So, before you jump up and down decrying "socialism!", adjust your lexicon whatever way you need to to understand that having co-owned resources is a hell of a lot different than whatever the f-'d up new re-definition of "socialism" might have devolved into. A nation full of individuals who all live in self-sufficient ranches is a lovely fantasy, but societies are social gatherings of disparate people, gathered together to live, work, and play. 99.9% of the world's humans do not live on a self-sufficient ranch, nor is there any way to structure a nation or a world based on self-sufficient ranches. Humans are a social species, gathered together with other humans to survive and to thrive by sharing co-owned resources.

    Nobody wants fake 'socialism', your nation living under tyrannical authoritarian rule, one where the elite in power possess and control all of the resources. Be smart enough to recognize the principles of societal co-ownership of resources, life-critical resources - and call it something else other than 'socialism.' When you are jeering your understanding of the word "socialism", be sure to differentiate the word from the underlying principle of co-ownership. Throw out the bath water. Save the baby.
    Socialism, is headbangery academia's best ( and worst ) shot at creating a facsimile of the real love unity of truly individuated spiritual beings.

    Chalk and cheese. As opposed, oh so subtly, as "Belief", rooted in the cerebral, and "Faith", rooted in the soul. From a casual unconscious 'distance' they pass by in the peripheral vision as being the same thing, when they are really the polar opposite grasps on life.
    ..................................................my first language is TYPO..............................................

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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    K DENIS , here we go, socialism is a regime where the government will take your property and give to "someone in need " who never work for in and will never do. Turn you into a terrorist if you dare to think different than the government narrative, make very difficult to survive to all the people capable to think for themselves and praise the illiterate dumb folks into grate warriors of the social revolution! Example VENEZUELA where a bus driver end up be the president and he cannot articulate 4 words together that make sense because does not know how to speak his own language correctly! you need any more explanation?

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    Dennis Leahy (27th November 2021)

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    Default Re: What is socialism? (your opinion, not the dictionary definition)

    Adding something else to the words of gov R. Desantis: Venezuela, population 30 million just 6 million left the country because the comunist regime, 20% OF THE TOTAL POPULATION, so this must say something about the total failure of the comunist system . And this is happening right now!

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