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Thread: Turmoil in Venezuela

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    Venezuela Avalon Member perolator's Avatar
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    Angry Re: Turmoil in Venezuela

    Mr. Hervé,

    I was laughing all the way reading this:

    Quote Posted by Hervé (here)
    For some background from Global Research:

    The Coup in Venezuela Must be Resisted

    By Craig Murray Global Research,

    January 24, 2019 Craig Murray

    Venezuela has elections. Juan Guaido has never even been a Presidential candidate. Despite massive CIA opposition funding and interference over years as Big Oil tries to regain control of the World’s largest oil reserves, Nicolas Maduro was democratically re-elected in 2018 as President of Venezuela.
    The Venezuelan 2018 elections were a farce. Less than 10% people voted. There were 2 government hand-picked "adversaries" to give the appearance of "fair" elections. Anyway, the election process was, as the chavista way dictates, heavily rigged.

    Quote The coup now under way is illegitimate. I opposed Maduro’s move to replace the elected National Assembly. Sometimes I read back things I wrote in the past and decide I was wrong. Sometimes I think the article was right, but a bit of a potboiler. Occasionally I am proud, and I am proud of my analysis on Venezuela written on 3 August 2017...
    It is not a coup. The military executes coups. Venezuelan upper ranks of the military supports Maduro, they are actually a political party. Guaidó and his team are civilians. Maduro is illegitimate all the way from 2013. I am sick of "journalists" like Craig Murray.

    I think I am wasting time reading and answering this post.

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    Avalon Member Carmody's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turmoil in Venezuela

    It may also be that there is a new method, waiting in the wings, to more effectively (financially) remove the oil from the deposits. From small technological advances and new thinking-- big things can come.

    Thus to control this huge reserve and be able to do it at an effective cost, and thus control world oil pricing and thus stabilize and move forward 'world control' with a strong, stable arm --of oil power. Being able to directly wrangle the middle east to the ground, economically, is a very big deal. This can only be enacted with oil power. Every other method has been tried, and failed.

    Thus, attack Venezuela, and destabilize the bolivarian initiative, all at the same time, along with the drug business black ops (destabilizing countries, secret programs, etc) re-empowerment scheme (double down).

    China can take a direct hit in this as would Venezuela as, something akin to South America under the us umbrella.. can and probably would be used to whip the Chinese economy around. Plus, it's cheap, inexpensive to pursue Venezuela. All the boxes are ticked and functional. Some of the best low hanging inexpensive effective fruit on the globe, it is. It simply can't be anything but squarely in the US empire's crosshairs.


    I note that the chart supplied does not mention Canada at all, with a proven 166 billion barrels of oil in the western canadian tar sands. And there are more reserves elsewhere. Any improved method of removing oil from the Venezuela reserves might work for the tar sands, or vice versa.
    Interdimensional Civil Servant

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    Default Re: Turmoil in Venezuela

    Quote Posted by Carmody (here)
    ...Thus, attack Venezuela, and destabilize the bolivarian initiative, all at the same time, along with the drug business black ops (destabilizing countries, secret programs, etc) re-empowerment scheme (double down).
    The bolivarian initiative? Go to Venezuela and enjoy it. But try to do it with minimum wage. Be my guest.

    Please quit watching spy movies.

    The propaganda machine is well-oiled. (pun intended).

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    Default Re: Turmoil in Venezuela

    Perolator

    I Love your avatar picture

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    Avalon Member Carmody's Avatar
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    Default Re: Turmoil in Venezuela

    Quote Posted by perolator (here)
    Quote Posted by Carmody (here)
    ...Thus, attack Venezuela, and destabilize the bolivarian initiative, all at the same time, along with the drug business black ops (destabilizing countries, secret programs, etc) re-empowerment scheme (double down).
    The bolivarian initiative? Go to Venezuela and enjoy it. But try to do it with minimum wage. Be my guest.

    Please quit watching spy movies.

    The propaganda machine is well-oiled. (pun intended).

    I just spoke with a friend on the phone, who is highly intelligent and does considerable research into all he speaks on, and is a historian by trade/education.

    We spoke about integrity in elections and how they were monitored by various groups, concerning Venezuela, and he says your line about the elections only having 10% participation, is a pile of utter dog crap.

    Exactly who's propaganda are we dealing with, here?

    Those Koch brothers really are a human stain.....
    Interdimensional Civil Servant

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    Default Re: Turmoil in Venezuela

    Quote Posted by Carmody (here)
    Quote Posted by perolator (here)
    Quote Posted by Carmody (here)
    ...Thus, attack Venezuela, and destabilize the bolivarian initiative, all at the same time, along with the drug business black ops (destabilizing countries, secret programs, etc) re-empowerment scheme (double down).
    The bolivarian initiative? Go to Venezuela and enjoy it. But try to do it with minimum wage. Be my guest.

    Please quit watching spy movies.

    The propaganda machine is well-oiled. (pun intended).
    I just spoke with a friend on the phone, who is highly intelligent and does considerable research into all he speaks on, and is a historian by trade/education.

    We spoke about integrity in elections and how they were monitored by various groups, concerning Venezuela, and he says your line about the elections only having 10% participation, is a pile of utter dog crap.
    I take that as a compliment. I was giving 10% as a maximum possibility, being optimistic.

    Tell your friend thanks on my behalf, and also tell him no matter how he manages his information, most Venezuelans know what happened that day. That's why the "bolivarian initiative" will be kicked out of my country, sooner or later.

    And Chavez is dead, by the way.

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    Default Re: Turmoil in Venezuela

    Ok, so your avatar says you are in Venezuela and the participating groups of election monitoring says the elections had far far more participation than your claimed 10%.

    You have a cutesy avatar, but the words are, what, well, we're not sure.

    But we do know that to disarm initiatives before they begin, or stabilize into something, they can be distracted into not forming or being retarded or delayed, with a few words spoken at the right time and place. Disinformation, well couched, and well placed, is key.

    So, a critical point becomes, this 'speaking of', or 'statement of' this...10% participation thing. all while having a cute avatar and looking like you are in -or are in- Venezuela.


    Avalon can be an important forum, in some ways. Polite discussion goes a long way in helping inform people who count. So a civilized forum can be far more important than it looks at first glance.
    Interdimensional Civil Servant

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    Default Re: Turmoil in Venezuela

    Quote Posted by Carmody (here)
    [...]
    We spoke about integrity in elections and how they were monitored by various groups, concerning Venezuela...
    [...]
    Somewhere in this video (~ 13:15 mark), Abby Martin explains the strategy used by the "empire" to undermine the election results since they couldn't win up front with any of the opposition candidates:

    "La réalité est un rêve que l'on fait atterrir" San Antonio AKA F. Dard

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    Default Re: Turmoil in Venezuela

    Quote Posted by Carmody (here)
    Ok, so your avatar says you are in Venezuela and the participating groups of election monitoring says the elections had far far more participation than your claimed 10%.

    You have a cutesy avatar, but the words are, what, well, we're not sure.
    If you read my first post in this thread, You'll know I clearly stated I left my homeland. I am keeping my avatar for two reasons:
    • To protect myself and my family in venezuela. I am making heavy statements against the Venezuelan government, and if I were in my country, I may be "suicided". There are people in jail there for less. Do you remember Venezuela has a dictatorship, do you?
    • Because I will return someday, all my family is still there. I said above I love my country.

    Quote But we do know that to disarm initiatives before they begin, or stabilize into something, they can be distracted into not forming or being retarded or delayed, with a few words spoken at the right time and place. Disinformation, well couched, and well placed, is key.
    Wholeheartedly agree.

    Quote So, a critical point becomes, this 'speaking of', or 'statement of' this...10% participation thing. all while having a cute avatar and looking like you are in -or are in- Venezuela.

    Avalon can be an important forum, in some ways. Polite discussion goes a long way in helping inform people who count. So a civilized forum can be far more important than it looks at first glance.
    Fair enough. One of the points of the forum is exchange information and points of view. I cannot be more uncivilized because my mother taught me to be polite, no matter how hard the situation is. You said my opinion is crap, and used a single source of information to back up your claims, via phone call.

    Have a nice day.

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    Default Re: Turmoil in Venezuela

    Quote Posted by Carmody (here)
    It may also be that there is a new method, waiting in the wings, to more effectively (financially) remove the oil from the deposits. From small technological advances and new thinking-- big things can come.

    Thus to control this huge reserve and be able to do it at an effective cost, and thus control world oil pricing and thus stabilize and move forward 'world control' with a strong, stable arm --of oil power. Being able to directly wrangle the middle east to the ground, economically, is a very big deal. This can only be enacted with oil power. Every other method has been tried, and failed.

    Thus, attack Venezuela, and destabilize the bolivarian initiative, all at the same time, along with the drug business black ops (destabilizing countries, secret programs, etc) re-empowerment scheme (double down).

    China can take a direct hit in this as would Venezuela as, something akin to South America under the us umbrella.. can and probably would be used to whip the Chinese economy around. Plus, it's cheap, inexpensive to pursue Venezuela. All the boxes are ticked and functional. Some of the best low hanging inexpensive effective fruit on the globe, it is. It simply can't be anything but squarely in the US empire's crosshairs.


    I note that the chart supplied does not mention Canada at all, with a proven 166 billion barrels of oil in the western canadian tar sands. And there are more reserves elsewhere. Any improved method of removing oil from the Venezuela reserves might work for the tar sands, or vice versa.
    This is a very sensible analysis, when looking at worldwide picture.

    Plus, I have very rarely, if not never, seen the US government intervening in a country because its people are suffering. All I have seen is the US government intevening to protect their interest or to further them forwards in a global chess game. Completely heartless.

    But, don't worry, China and Russia are doing exactly the same - primitive world we have.

    The US supporting anybody to the presidency of a country is of significance for the future of the US. And more to the point, for the future of the world oligarchy, nobody else (not even the US citizens).

    I am a Canadian. We have oil, minerals to the tons, land, sea, and the north pole, annnnd the know how, education to manage it, everything everyone wants to grab. China is buying our land to the billions, Russia is quiet but we do share the north pole with them, and the US has always been taking for very cheap about everything Canadian, under the cover of free trade (no, you are not in trade deficit, USA, even your dirty milk is pushed on us right now, full of products not allowed in Canada, one of the reason we are still a tiny bit thinner).

    We, Canadian, are used to the one sided propaganda. Believe me, Venezuela is in for exploitation to the core.

    Starve the people, than feed the people so that they welcome us, while we win on the international chessboard. But make sure the people is fed much below their previous good standards, to keep the fear going.

    Make of it a plaque tournante of the drug cartels, to make sure every single family has drug problems to deal with (if not autism). Happening in the oil and minerals rich Mexico too.

    And no, I do not watch spy movies, I have seen it pretty directly - ex: when the US or its oligarchy wanted to put down the extraordinarily good Canadian communication industry (we were about 20 years ahead of US) - have an American president named at the head of its main Canadian company and make sure he puts it down while raking millions for himself. I have seen it hundreds of times. At the corporate levels as well as at the government levels. No kidding.

    Personally, I am truly sorry for the people, the suffering people. And wonder when are we going to become humanly evolved.

    ------ as an aside: at least Target could not take hold in Canada, I hope the same will happen with the US milk and food industries. We do not want nor need the US food crap, nor the Chinese one (which has invaded our markets as well).
    How to let the desire of your mind become the desire of your heart - Gurdjieff

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    Default Re: Turmoil in Venezuela

    Well done to Herve for starting this post but just putting Main Stream Media clips here is a bit of a joke considering all of us in Avalon know that the MSN is not to be trusted.

    And yet people here seem to be believing it over what perolator is saying and what I know to be true about the situation...

    Are we to believe what Global Reasearch says? Such an independent source of unbiased truth?

    As for Abby Martin, she is just repeating the Russia Today viewpoint and after a few words with a few locals doesn't really know what she is talking about.

    I guess people believe the MSN when it suits them.

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    Default Re: Turmoil in Venezuela

    Well, what about some verifiable data, then?
    "La réalité est un rêve que l'on fait atterrir" San Antonio AKA F. Dard

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    Default Re: Turmoil in Venezuela

    Quote Posted by Flash (here)
    Plus, I have very rarely, if not never, seen the US government intervening in a country because its people are suffering. All I have seen is the US government intevening to protect their interest or to further them forwards in a global chess game. Completely heartless.

    But, don't worry, China and Russia are doing exactly the same - primitive world we have.

    .
    You mean China and Russia also has 800 military bases around the world? You mean China and Russia also been in the front line of all the wars in the world?
    Protecting interest is one thing killing people to do that is another thing.

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    Default Re: Turmoil in Venezuela

    Quote Posted by 5th (here)
    Well done to Herve for starting this post but just putting Main Stream Media clips here is a bit of a joke considering all of us in Avalon know that the MSN is not to be trusted.
    I also thank Hervé for starting the thread. I have a friend who told me to check out this thread and felt compelled to post some thoughts.

    Quote And yet people here seem to be believing it over what perolator is saying and what I know to be true about the situation...

    Are we to believe what Global Reasearch says? Such an independent source of unbiased truth?

    As for Abby Martin, she is just repeating the Russia Today viewpoint and after a few words with a few locals doesn't really know what she is talking about.

    I guess people believe the MSN when it suits them.
    I am not commenting about Abby because her opinion as the opinion of a large amount of people, may be biased but without all the information at her disposal, she is not able to give a fair opinion. I also mistrust RT, and some journalists from The Guardian are backing Maduro's regime (!). That propaganda machine is well-oiled, as I said before. My intention is not to compete with this people. It is impossible.

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    Default Re: Turmoil in Venezuela

    Quote Posted by Bubu (here)
    Quote Posted by Flash (here)
    Plus, I have very rarely, if not never, seen the US government intervening in a country because its people are suffering. All I have seen is the US government intevening to protect their interest or to further them forwards in a global chess game. Completely heartless.

    But, don't worry, China and Russia are doing exactly the same - primitive world we have.

    .
    You mean China and Russia also has 800 military bases around the world? You mean China and Russia also been in the front line of all the wars in the world?
    Protecting interest is one thing killing people to do that is another thing.
    this is not Carmody's text, Bubu, this is mine.

    No, I do not mean they have all the military bases all over the world, but I mean that economically, they are all over too. This is the pulling the blanket to oneself game. Of course USA has lots of military power, which in fact is descriptive too. They spend about half of their --- produit national brut (someone help for translation) - on the military. Take that money to change the world for the better, there will be no more need for military.
    How to let the desire of your mind become the desire of your heart - Gurdjieff

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    Default Re: Turmoil in Venezuela

    Fact: wherever oil is, there would be US gov. meddling.

    What are the possibilities of them playing the two factions like they did in US politics and to so many medllings?

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    Default Re: Turmoil in Venezuela

    Quote Posted by Hervé (here)
    Well, what about some verifiable data, then?
    Verifiable from what source? The only data you've supplied is 'verified' by the MSN. It's impossible for anyone to provide real verification and so we can only go on what is coming out of Venezuela itself from people who've seen what is happening rather than what the media is reporting.

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    Default Re: Turmoil in Venezuela

    Quote Posted by 5th (here)
    Quote Posted by Hervé (here)
    Well, what about some verifiable data, then?
    Verifiable from what source? The only data you've supplied is 'verified' by the MSN. It's impossible for anyone to provide real verification and so we can only go on what is coming out of Venezuela itself from people who've seen what is happening rather than what the media is reporting.
    I am a high-ranked employee of the Koch Brothers.

    Here is one of my favorite quotes ever:
    Quote You take the blue pill—the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill—you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
    I live in a free world. I hope my people can also say the same.

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    Default Re: Turmoil in Venezuela

    Unfortunately the Venezuelan people are suffering so badly, and the maduro government is apparently so corrupt and incompetent, that it becomes obfuscated how the cia has caused this situation in the first place. Although I don't know the details, this smells similar to the 'populist' uprising in the Ukraine, in which a democraticly elected leader was ousted by a bunch of fringe neo-fascists. As Mr. Leahy mentions, after reviewing Perkins' 'Confessions of an Economic Hitman' you can see the trademarks of a covertly sponsored coup in the Venezuelan situation. The cia would be strenuously involved because of the big oil money. The cia gets involved with overturning regimes for much less money.

    It is very sad that Venezuelans are suffering so badly from this situation. Chavas and Maduro had a real opportunity to improve the paradigm in their country, but appear to have fallen for power politics and money instead of being primarily concerned about the welfare of their people.

    I know that Maduro is 'the devil that you know', and the one you want to get rid of, but don't expect the replacement to be much better. If maduro is overthrown, the people are best off appealing to someone other than the USA. I am not sure who to appeal to, but not the usa, nor the EU, nor the IMF, nor the world Bank, not NATO, but perhaps there is someone out there who can help.

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    Default Re: Turmoil in Venezuela

    Washington orchestrates coup in Venezuela, incites civil war, in name of 'democracy'

    RT
    Finian Cunningham
    Fri, 25 Jan 2019 17:51 UTC


    A rally in support of Venezuela's President Nicolas Maduro in Caracas, Venezuela October 5, 2018 © REUTERS/Marco Bello

    The dramatic events in Venezuela have "US-orchestrated coup d'état" written all over them. Washington is also giving itself license for military intervention which could spark a proxy war involving Russia.

    The sequencing leaves no doubt the US has upped the ante for regime change in the South American country.

    This week, Vice President Mike Pence issued a call to arms with a deft video address to the "people of Venezuela" to take to the streets against the elected government. Pence also urged the country's security forces to back the protests, adding, "we [the US] are with you."

    Next day, the opposition figure Juan Guaido holds a major rally in the capital Caracas and declares himself "interim president of Venezuela" while denouncing incumbent Nicolas Maduro as "a usurper."

    Within minutes, US President Trump announces he is recognizing Guaido as the legitimate authority in Venezuela. Trump's imprimatur is swiftly followed by Canada and several right-wing South American governments allied with Washington. French President Emmanuel Macron says he supports "the restoration of democracy" in Venezuela and salutes "the courage of the hundreds of thousands of Venezuelans marching for their freedom". [while sending riot police against the "Yellow Vests"]

    President Maduro responds by cutting off diplomatic ties with the US and orders American diplomats to leave within 72 hours.

    Then, following the script, US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo warns - with classic Alice-in-Wonderland logic - that since Maduro is no longer the legitimate president he has no authority to sever diplomatic ties with Washington.

    More sinisterly, Trump and Pompeo make the time-dishonored threat that "all options are on the table" - meaning military action - "if US personnel are endangered."

    That means the Maduro government is forbidden from sanctioning US diplomatic properties and officials. Any move to expel American personnel could be construed as "endangering" their safety, which in Washington's logic means a license to "respond" militarily.

    Washington's self-declared license to protect its interests in Venezuela extends to the anti-Maduro opposition groups. Trump warned he would hold Maduro responsible for any acts of violence against protesters.

    This amounts to incitement for more violence on the streets of Caracas. Venezuela's armed forces - who so far remain loyal to Maduro - have also been accused of using excessive lethal force. The situation is therefore primed by Washington for escalation into a civil war.

    Russia has condemned the interference by the US in Venezuela's internal affairs, saying that President Maduro is the legitimate head of state. Moscow has also warned the US not to deploy military force to the country which Russia describes as "our ally."

    Right-wing governments in the region such as Colombia and the newly elected Brazilian President Jair Bolsonaro, as well as Argentina, Chile, Paraguay and Peru, have backed Washington's stance on delegitimizing Maduro's administration. Colombia and Brazil have also shown preparedness to support US military intervention.

    In addition to Russia's condemnation of US interference, China, Bolivia, Cuba, Turkey and Iran, among others, have given their support for the Maduro government, denouncing Washington's policy of regime change.

    Thus, the Trump administration is not only igniting a firestorm within Venezuela, it is setting the stage for an international proxy war, not unlike the war which Washington and its allies engineered in Syria.

    An American-induced war in Venezuela has been a long time in the making. Ever since the South American oil giant opted for a socialist government more than 20 years ago - first under Hugo Chavez then under his successor Nicolas Maduro - Venezuela has been in Washington's cross-hairs for regime change.

    The GW Bush administration triggered a coup in 2002 against Chavez, which failed. Then Obama tightened the screws with economic sanctions on Venezuela's vital oil industry which precipitated the country's current social crisis and discontent. Several waves of streets protests have occurred all with the signs that Washington has been a crucial instigating player.

    At the end of last year, the Trump administration slated the Maduro government as a national security threat, and hinted it was considering military action against Venezuela. There were even White House claims that Caracas was agitating the regime caravans through Central America, which have become a bane of Trump's fears about immigrants "invading" the US.

    But what triggered the latest push from Washington may have been Russia's more open alliance with Caracas. Last month, President Maduro was hosted in Moscow by Russia's Vladimir Putin, when the two countries signed multi-billion-dollar partnerships for oil exploration, mining, agricultural and other trade ties.

    Within days of Maduro's visit to the Kremlin, the "strategic alliance" was given a decisive military underpinning when two Russian Tupolev Tu-160 nuclear-capable bombers flew 10,000 kilometers to Venezuela in an apparent show of Moscow's support for the beleaguered country.

    Washington's reaction to the Russian bombers landing in Caracas was apoplectic.

    Maduro was elected for the second time back in May 2018 with nearly 67 per cent of the vote. Admittedly, the turnout for the election was low at around 46 per cent. The large abstention was partly due to the ongoing economic crisis and unrest in the country, which Washington's sanctions have played a large part in fomenting.

    Nevertheless, more than 9 million Venezuelans voted for Maduro and his socialist policies. The elections were documented as free and fair by international observers. They were also verified by Venezuela's National Electoral Commission.

    Earlier this month, on January 10, Maduro was officially inaugurated for a second term that runs until 2025.

    Given his consolidation of authority and the important alliance with Russia taking on international prominence, it seems that Washington decided to renew its efforts for regime change in Caracas.

    Vice President Mike Pence reportedly held phone calls with opposition figure Juan Guaido. Evidently, with Pence's follow-up public comments backing the overthrow of Maduro, the coup was set in motion.

    What happens next is a high-wire act. Washington could ramp up the economic blockade of Venezuela by freezing financial assets of the country's oil company in the US. The US could even impose a naval blockade. And if the violence escalates in Venezuela, Washington has already set the precedent for military intervention.

    How Russia and Venezuela's regional allies respond to that is a potential detonator of wider conflict.

    What's all the more inflammatory is the flagrant illegality of Washington's actions. The opposition figure whom the White House has anointed as "acting president" and the minor congressional body he controls have been declared in contempt of the constitution by Venezuela's supreme court.

    Juan Guaido therefore has no mandate or legitimacy to appoint himself as the country's leader. His "authority" is decreed by Washington.

    The absurd irony of Trump and Macron, among others, backing an unconstitutional, self-declared president in Venezuela is staggering. Half the population of the US and France despise their supposed leaders. Trump is barred by opposition lawmakers from making the annual State of the Union speech for the first time in US history, while Macron is beset by nationwide protests and requires heavy police protection wherever he goes.

    And yet here we have Trump, Trudeau and other discredited Western figures, declaring who should rule Venezuela.
    "La réalité est un rêve que l'on fait atterrir" San Antonio AKA F. Dard

    Troll-hood motto: Never, ever, however, whatsoever, to anyone, a point concede.

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