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Thread: The Fourth Turning: when humanity loses faith in its institutions

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    Germany Avalon Member christian's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Fourth Turning: when humanity loses faith in its institutions

    In essence, our institutions are our slave masters. Our institutions take care of us like slave masters take care of slaves. Without the institutions, we'd have more freedom, but less security. But we could potentially become much more as free humans than as slaves. That's the challenge, was the challenge, and will always be the challenge—to take self-responsibility.

    I'm all for dethroning the current institutions by building new ones. Decentralized, voluntary, so that the old ones may just fade away. They will, of course, struggle to survive, which may be quite unpleasant at times, but the more focus and energy is put into creating new institutions, the more the old will vanish.

    Everybody who takes any step towards becoming a sovereign being in thinking, feeling and acting helps with this, everything counts, always. It's not about people having "the right opinion" or doing "the right thing," it's about people using their own discernment and acting in their own conscience. The more people do this, the better. That's the decentralized empowerment of humanity that's uncontrollable and unstoppable, unlike a movement that's built around figureheads and followers, although there will always be some elements of hierarchy in society, that's OK, as long as hierarchies are flexible and based on merit.

    Here's a little text from Michail Bakunin, expanding on what this means. It was published in 1882. Bakunin had been the antagonist of Karl Marx in the International Workingman's Association.
    Does it follow that I reject all authority? Far from me such a thought. In the matter of boots, I refer to the authority of the bootmaker; concerning houses, canals, or railroads, I consult that of the architect or engineer. For such or such special knowledge, I apply to such or such a savant. But I allow neither the bootmaker nor the architect nor the savant to impose his authority upon me. I listen to them freely and with all the respect merited by their intelligence, their character, their knowledge, reserving always my incontestable right of criticism censure. I do not content myself with consulting authority in any special branch; I consult several; I compare their opinions and choose that which seems to me the soundest. But I recognize no infallible authority, even in special questions; consequently, whatever respect I may have for the honesty and the sincerity of such or such an individual, I have no absolute faith in any person. Such a faith would be fatal to my reason, to my liberty, and even to the success of my undertakings; it would immediately transform me into a stupid slave, an instrument of the will and interests of others.

    If I bow before the authority of the specialists and avow my readiness to follow—to a certain extent and as long as may seem to me necessary—their indications and even their directions, it is because their authority is imposed upon me by no one […]. Otherwise, I would repel them with horror and bid the devil take their counsels, their directions and their services, certain that they would make me pay, by the loss of my liberty and self-respect, for such scraps of truth, wrapped in a multitude of lies, as they might give me.

    I bow before the authority of special men, because it is imposed upon me by my own reason. I am conscious of my inability to grasp, in all its details and positive developments, any very large portion of human knowledge. The greatest intelligence would not be equal to a comprehension of the whole. Thence results, for science as well as for industry, the necessity of the division and association of labor. I receive and I give—such is human life. Each directs and is directed in his turn. Therefore there is no fixed and constant authority, but a continual exchange of mutual, temporary, and, above all, voluntary authority and subordination.
    The original working-class movement was overwhelmingly in favor of Bakunin's model, not of Marx's model with an intellectual elite that brings about harmony with radical central planning. Bakunin was of the opinion that this would lead to a one-party tyranny. Go figure. Bakunin, on the other hand, advocated for immediate decentralization. That seemed to be in the workers' best interest, why would they want some intellectuals governing them? But with the brutal obliteration of the anarchists in Spain, in Ukraine and elsewhere, and with the rise of the Soviet Union, funded by Wall Street and other monied interests, Marxism became synonymous with leftist working-class movements. The modern left has yet to rediscover its historical roots.

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Considering all the tragedy and suffering and malevolence that exists in the world today, I think it's a miracle when I walk outside in the morning and there isn't total anarchy in the streets.
    What you mean is anomy (Ancient Greek: an- = not; nómos = custom, law). Anarchy (archē = governance) means that nobody would violate anyone's person or property.

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    We need progressive and humane democratic socialism, once and for all, in the U.S. They killed John F. Kennedy and his brother for their attempts to get the ball rolling on that and the elite have obstructed it ever since with propaganda that well suited the libertarian zeitgeist of the boomer generation.
    Socialism is an 'essentially contested concept,' which is just a sophisticated way of saying that people don't agree on what it means. If I would have to break 'socialism' down, I'd say it usually describes a society that relies heavily on political institutions for the administration of society in order to ensure social equality and the welfare of all citizens.

    I can believe that Kennedy wanted to do some benevolent things and that this got him killed. The same goes for many socialist politicians like Patrice Lumumba in Congo, Muammar Gaddafi in Libya, Silvanus Olympio in Togo, Salvador Allende in Chile, and many others. There are socialist politicians whom I consider genuinely benevolent. Yet I still believe that full sovereignty of every human being is the most benevolent thing to aim for. That's true libertarianism. In the US, the libertarian zeitgeist of the boomer generation was mostly propaganda. You can't have a bank-state fiat money cartel and a military-industrial complex and all the rest of it and pretend you're libertarian. That's cronyism, corporatocracy, a deep state, call it what you will, but certainly not libertarian.

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    I do like the idea of some things being socialized, as I understand the word.
    With anarchy, you can have that. You can socialize all you want with cooperatives, non-profits, worker-owned companies, etc.

    You can also have all kinds of profit-oriented companies. Anarchy, in essence, is a neutral, fertile soil, for different societal constructs to emerge peacefully side-by-side or in cooperation.

    That's the beauty of anarchy, it lets people come up with so many different answers to the demands of society, but never forces any solution or idea upon anyone.

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Libertarians […] think government, by its very nature, is bad. They don't realize that, at least currently, public governmental agencies, free of conflict of interest and properly funded, work very well.
    As long as human beings have individual desires, whether conscious or sub-conscious, there will be conflicts of interest in politics and there will be conflicts of interest between the government and the governed. I agree that these can be big or small, but they can never be zero, except in some fantastic utopia where the government is of pure intent and telepathically aligned with the governed.

    The nature of government is coercion, forcing its will into existence. That's not good or bad per se. It's just that the power to use coercion corrupts people in our day and age from the inside. There are many psychological studies that demonstrate this, but we can also see it in history. It's empirically proven. For just one summary of this issue, I recommend "The Power Paradox" from Dacher Keltner.

    Governments can be benevolent, we can find examples of that as well. The overall trend, however, is more individual sovereignty leads to more peace and prosperity.

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Democratic socialists dance with private industry too, but the govt will step on the corporations toes, and is the leading partner. They don't obstruct business necessarily, but make them play by the rules.
    I think it's playing with a fire that nobody can control. I like how J.R.R. Tolkien said it, that "the most improper job of any man, even saints (who at any rate were at least unwilling to take it on), is bossing other men. Not one in a million is fit for it, and least of all those who seek the opportunity."

    To believe that a benevolent government will enact fair laws and make corporations play by these rules seems to me like believing that you (or someone who you support) can put on the One Ring and do good.

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Ideally, what I'd like to see (and maybe this is what you're describing) is a hybrid system of open markets and capitalism. Yeah, it's been explained to me many times why this is a poor idea, how it will fail, and so on. But I still like it. I'd like to see a system where people can still make obscene amounts of money - but only up to a point - and anything that exceeds an imposed ceiling would be recycled to the bottom.
    Here's the conundrum. You don't want anyone to become a monopolist, and in order to avoid that you want to have a monopolist. All based on the premise that the state is the benevolent monopolist that would do only that recycling. But who funds that redistribution machine? Who collects the money? Who protects the state? How much is redistributed and to whom exactly? On our current plane of existence, there is no shirking these questions. And while I like the model you propose in a philosophical sense, I don't see how a government could accomplish this where we are. Instead, the way to implement it would be to just do it on an individual level, do it smartly, with focus, dedication, insistence, and promote it. If people pick it up, it will become a thing. It all rests on individuals taking responsibility. That actually could work.

    The state is a monopolist, and the most dangerous one, as we can see in history, as we can see today. All these corporate criminals today got rich through the state. They got rich cause the state is rigged in their favor, cause the state is the massive weapon that it is, attracting corporate mobsters like light attracts moths, and who in politics is immune to them?

    Roland Baader wrote in 2010, "On truly free markets, monopolies could hardly arise. If they would, they wouldn’t exist for long. On the one hand, every monopoly reaches a point at which the exploitation of the monopoly is finished, meaning that the company cannot profit from increased prices and the revenue goes down. On the other hand, open market access would attract competitors and producers of substitute goods that would try to outcompete the monopolist if there would be even the slightest tendency towards a monopoly. Monopolies can remain only when they’re protected by politics."

    Most of the prosperity that exists right now exists because of the ingenuity of people and despite the actions of governments. If we could just get government out of the way in the education system, for example, it would make more progress in 10 years than there was in the last 100 years, and it would be cheaper than you ever imagined. The decentralization of learning, along with all of its chances and benefits, has been a top trend in Gerald Celente's Trends Journal for years. To take away the monopoly on education from the state would be a blow to the old paradigm, the importance of which we can probably not overestimate. This is what got Francisco Ferrer killed in 1909.

    I believe the only way to move forward is education and diligent work, getting smart about economics and politics. Individuals using their own creativity and discernment. It's the hardest road, progress will always be slow and painstaking. Yet it's the only way that has ever worked and will ever work.

    Sounds a tad dry, and it is, but if people along the way also open up to the reality that we're infinite consciousness having an experience, it all becomes kind of fun.

    As far as I can see, there will always be governments. Any group of people voting on how to do something has some sort of democratic government system. If friends vote on how to split a bill, that's democratic socialism in practice, one that I'm perfectly fine with. I just think that it only truly works if there is an understanding that any violation of the democratic code would cause the rest to contest this behavior once they discover it. You can have this sort of democracy in an anarchist society. And you would have it in all sorts of groups. Sometimes it would work out beneficially, sometimes it wouldn't. As the state is made to be the monopolist of force, its failure is always humongous, whereas failures of private, voluntary entities tend to be smaller. In the end, that's one of the main selling points for anarchy. It minimizes the negative effects of human stupidity. We're a primitive bunch. But the greatest danger is not individuals acting crazy, it's conformist masses following this or that foolishness.

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    Default Re: The Fourth Turning: when humanity loses faith in its institutions

    #soros

    "The Pandemic isn't working - Start the race wars"

    Jonathan, my beloved son will take the lead

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    United States Avalon Member Mike's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Fourth Turning: when humanity loses faith in its institutions

    Quote Posted by shaberon (here)
    Quote Posted by Mike (here)

    I'm a big believer in personal responsibility. If we say all institutions are corrupt, then we can conveniently blame them and avoid taking personal responsibility for ourselves. This is the disturbing trend i see happening these days, particularly on college campuses.
    Hmm. There is something to that, but I would twist it a little differently.

    Most of the major institutions are corrupt and undesirable, and, most of the common people are corrupt and undesirable.

    It is simply the wrong attitude of any provider to say "you got to eat today, be my slave". It is true that I, personally, have made major use of oil, so maybe I am culpable/to blame, for being coerced to participate in a system I don't agree with. I tend not to worry about that. In the actual "scruples" types of issues--responsibilities where you have a choice, or might have to go out of your way or something like that--I am certain there is a night and day difference between myself, and way more than half of everyone I've ever seen. When it is obvious that half or more of everybody is just a wolfpack, well, "what would they do" given a high office or any influential position, I shudder to think.

    The number of times I have cheated or hurt anyone is...I haven't.

    The number of lives I have shattered in relation to such things is countless.

    The number of institutions I have challenged are none. Mentally, yes, but not actually. All I can still say about the meat industry now is about the same as thirty years ago, with the new thing of whether anyone works there.

    However, in terms of infrastructure, we are going to need something. We have had hog lagoons bust, and electric company reservoirs, and something like 1/3 of the almost 1,500 dams are showing signs of failure. Also most of the plumbing is iron pipes over fifty years old and that is going to start to rot. I personally like warm showers and most of them do use coal-fired electricity to rust out the tube. I would still like to have them. But I think once we have heated indoor plumbing, we are already pretty much at the apex of nature, and a lot of the additional things going into our houses are corrupt and undesirable.


    If you have been shattered countless times it may just mean that you've been rather naive, and having committed the same mistake of naivete over and over again are in some ways equally as guilty as those you view as perpetrators. It may just be that you're allowing yourself to be taken advantage of repetitively so you can assume a victim's role and avoid the responsibility that comes with self empowerment.

    And if you've never ever hurt anyone, it may not necessarily mean you're a good person; it may just mean you're too scared to hurt someone because you fear reprisals.

    Or...you may be the absolute saint your post suggests. I don't know. I'm just offering up hypotheticals as sort of an intellectual exercise.

    I'd say most common people are generally kind and well intentioned, and most institutions are competent and effective. If they weren't, society wouldn't be able to function in any coherent way. The waiter wouldn't bring you your food, the man wouldn't hold the door for you, the woman wouldn't give the homeless veteran a 20 dollar bill, the uber wouldnt show up, the dentist wouldn't pull your tooth, the plane wouldn't take off, the traffic lights wouldn't work, the grocery store would be empty, your plumbing would fail, the electrical grid would go down, and the violence and looting in the streets would make what we see now look like a little firecracker party.

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    Canada Avalon Member Ernie Nemeth's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Fourth Turning: when humanity loses faith in its institutions

    Yes. A big part of the agenda is the corruption of innocence, or as you say, naivete. That's why they like abusing young children...

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    Exclamation Re: The Fourth Turning: when humanity loses faith in its institutions

    The Fourth Turning - How this crisis was predicted 30 years ago:

    Is War Coming? The Fourth Turning and Top Five 2020 Prediction Systems
    Last edited by ExomatrixTV; 10th August 2020 at 14:07.
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    Default Re: The Fourth Turning: when humanity loses faith in its institutions

    There is a new update at TheBurningPlatform.com, posted yesterday, on where we stand in this Fourth Turning.

    It's one fine read: IT’S A FOURTH TURNING: WHAT DID YOU EXPECT?. Do give it a read!

    Below are three of the opening paragraphs, as a teaser. You can find the entire article at the above link.

    === ===
    I’ve been pondering this Fourth Turning in articles since its spectacular onset in September 2008, with the Wall Street/Federal Reserve initiated global financial implosion. The description above is apt, as this ongoing two-decade long storm gains intensity and our freedoms, liberties and rights are slowly extinguished as the electricity flickers and our modern civilization reverts to a more brutish state of antipathy among competing tribes, based on race, gender, class, party, geographic location, and now medical status.


    We are in the midst of a saecular winter that is guaranteed to become more violent and bitter, as the malevolent forces propelling this Crisis have decided to ramp up fear propaganda to implement their global reset, using authoritarian methods to compel the masses to comply. I’ve intellectually understood we would be faced with trials and tribulations that would threaten the continuation of our way of life and survival as a unified nation. The reality is proving to be far worse. The core elements of debt, civic decay, and global disorder are most certainly propelling this Crisis towards its bloody climax. I knew there was no way to sidestep or escape this Fourth Turning.

    But I didn’t expect a Deep State coup against a sitting president; a stolen presidential election through the collusion of the surveillance state, Big Tech, Big Media and billionaire oligarchs; a weaponized flu used as cover for an imploding financial system; an authoritarian global lockdown which has destroyed small businesses and impoverished the working class, while enriching mega-corporations and the elite ruling class; and now a Big Pharma experimental gene therapy disguised as a vaccine used to divide America into hostile tribes spewing hate online, with a strong possibility of violence because Biden and his handlers are attempting to provoke those refusing his vaccine mandate into committing acts of aggression.
    === ===
    My (sometimes rather dormant) blog: theMooster.net

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    Default Re: The Fourth Turning: when humanity loses faith in its institutions

    .
    This is not exactly a Fourth Turning viewpoint, but it's quite along the same lines.

    Clif High has an inspiring vision of "The Greatest Generation Ever", now in their youth, going through the hard times of the global demise of the Death Cult that has ruled over humanity for the last 6,000 years:


    Source: https://www.bitchute.com/video/zgWKzyIdMRLV


    As another old man in his 70's, like Clif High, I didn't know if I'd live long enough to begin to see how this might unfold. I didn't have the health challenges that Clif did, but I also did not know how quickly, or slowly, it would take to "turn the tide" on this great struggle of humanity.

    We have yet to face the full brunt of the global financial, and monetary collapse, as the Debt Money system fails. Debt Money has been used in recent centuries by this Death Cult that has ruled over us since the time of Babylon. Their tyrannical medical, education, propaganda, legal, colonizing, enslavement, genocidal, monopolizing, political and globalized economic systems are already collapsing.

    Give Clif a listen! It's just 7+ minutes long and well polished in its presentation.
    My (sometimes rather dormant) blog: theMooster.net

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