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Thread: The Dangers of “Living While Black” in the USA

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    Default Re: The Dangers of “Living While Black” in the USA

    Hi MIke,

    You asked:

    ..my question is this: Do you really understand what equity means? I don't think the average person has any idea what that means when it's being uttered by activists. It doesn't mean equality in any kind of conventional sense; what it means is equality of outcome. To understand why equality of outcome doctrines are so dangerous, you have to know a bit about history. And if you don't know a bit about history, you are likely going to think that those offering up concerns for such concepts are racist and bigoted..


    This IS a dangerous concept and one that radical feminists and manipulators on the left have down to a science, in terms of gaining political leverage wherever they can. True. And any nitwit SJW who is using BLM, which is about actual police and judicial reform, to further their own personal lust for power should be slapped down.

    Then, you also have people in the alt right community and MSM outlets like Fox who leverage power from the dynamic that you just described, seeking to place all racial and minority grievances in the same camp with radical feminism, gender issue nuttiness, and racial issue hair splitting.

    The reality lies outside of the propaganda vortex and focus needs to be placed on compassion, first and foremost-- for those being jailed and killed unnecessarily.

    Who benefits from the confusion and the ensuing cluster****? My intuition tells me that the military will have their budgets increased. The police could become further militarized to the point that the clear line between military and police, already blurred, could become completely obscured, in the "interests of national security."

    Does this mean that blacks shouldn't protest as it will backfire? Personally, I feel they have to protest as nothing is so set in stone it can't be changed. Also, there are some in the military who will refuse to go along with anything that completely reverses the posse comitatus act. The schisms within the military itself will be intriguing to witness, as they are becoming more overt.

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    Default Re: The Dangers of “Living While Black” in the USA

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    ......
    That makes sense, I'm glad to double check. Even so, exaggeration may well possibly be part of how it starts to grow out of hand like you were describing.

    I've been looking for cerebral discussions on this subject, there's not much I can find tbh, but here's one:

    Bearing in mind there are cultural differences between the USA and the UK with this issue; here in the UK we have exceptionally few police killings for example. Here a couple of Brits talk to an American.
    Trigger-nometry

    We Are in a Moral Panic: Coleman Hughes

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    Default Re: The Dangers of “Living While Black” in the USA

    Yo yo yo,

    Quick question before I watch. Are Coleman Hughes opinions aligned with "conservative" values?

    Okay, just listened to a few seconds. He is spouting typical right wing nonsense talking points.

    He is the personification of what you want to avoid. The very "voice of reason" coming from an actual black person...as if they speak for the black community. And, he is factually incorrect. In terms of percentages, there are way more black people murdered by cops than white people killed by cops.

    Fade this jerk.
    Last edited by AutumnW; 20th June 2020 at 22:07.

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    Default Re: The Dangers of “Living While Black” in the USA

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Yo yo yo,

    Quick question before I watch. Are Coleman Hughes opinions aligned with "conservative" values?
    Here's a snippet from memory:

    Brits question: "Are BLM, in general, a force for good"

    Coleman Hughes answer: "Yes because of[list of specific reforms here] wouldn't have happened in 2015 without the attention BLM brought, [and most people at those gatherings have seen the video, and think, yes I don't like what I see, I want to do the right thing, they don't know or care about BLMs radical manifesto, but there are some there that go all the way, but most are non radical]"


    I got carried away there... corrections welcome

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    Default Re: The Dangers of “Living While Black” in the USA

    YoYo Yo, Coleman Hughes said just as many white people are killed by cops as black people. No context, no mention of percentages. That's the take away. Forget what he said that was honest. Disinfo is always packaged with what looks to be logical and possibly even compassionate.

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    Default Re: The Dangers of “Living While Black” in the USA

    I heard Hughes bring a more holistic look at the police situation, but I don't remember him denying racism.

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    Default Re: The Dangers of “Living While Black” in the USA

    Quote Posted by AutumnW (here)
    Hi MIke,

    You asked:

    ..my question is this: Do you really understand what equity means? I don't think the average person has any idea what that means when it's being uttered by activists. It doesn't mean equality in any kind of conventional sense; what it means is equality of outcome. To understand why equality of outcome doctrines are so dangerous, you have to know a bit about history. And if you don't know a bit about history, you are likely going to think that those offering up concerns for such concepts are racist and bigoted..


    This IS a dangerous concept and one that radical feminists and manipulators on the left have down to a science, in terms of gaining political leverage wherever they can. True. And any nitwit SJW who is using BLM, which is about actual police and judicial reform, to further their own personal lust for power should be slapped down.

    Then, you also have people in the alt right community and MSM outlets like Fox who leverage power from the dynamic that you just described, seeking to place all racial and minority grievances in the same camp with radical feminism, gender issue nuttiness, and racial issue hair splitting.

    The reality lies outside of the propaganda vortex and focus needs to be placed on compassion, first and foremost-- for those being jailed and killed unnecessarily.

    Who benefits from the confusion and the ensuing cluster****? My intuition tells me that the military will have their budgets increased. The police could become further militarized to the point that the clear line between military and police, already blurred, could become completely obscured, in the "interests of national security."

    Does this mean that blacks shouldn't protest as it will backfire? Personally, I feel they have to protest as nothing is so set in stone it can't be changed. Also, there are some in the military who will refuse to go along with anything that completely reverses the posse comitatus act. The schisms within the military itself will be intriguing to witness, as they are becoming more overt.

    I just want to say - before I say anything else in this post - just in case there is any doubt lingering in anyone's mind: my issues have never ever been with black people, trans people or feminists. My issues are with, and always have been with the radical activist types. They just happen to set up camp in these areas. Regardless of what they're protesting, they always offer the same twisted, destructive ideology.

    It is my opinion - based on history, based on what I've read, and based on what I've observed - that this social justice, postmodern neo-marxism being fast tracked in now is infinitely more dangerous than racism. I hope I'm wrong!

    But that's why my focus has primarily been on that.

    It's always been my feeling that our highest value has to be truth, even over compassion. Because in a tricky situation like this, it's important to know where our compassion should be directed first. It's clear we should be offering compassion to George Floyd and his family, but beyond that it all gets a little murky for me

    This might be a sacrilegious statement, particularly on this thread, but we don't even know if racism was Chauvin's motivation for killing Floyd. We now know that they had some beef. Perhaps Chauvin is just a sick, power-tripping, sociopathic f#ck who would have killed anyone he disliked in that particular situation. We don't know.

    We also don't know why police shoot blacks at a higher rate than whites. Is it because they're black? Or is it because the blacks that are getting shot tend to live in impoverished, high crime areas? And we don't know exactly why a significant percentage of blacks are living in these impoverished, high crime areas. We don't know exactly where the blame lies for that.

    Racism is the easy answer. It's quick. It's simple. It answers everything cleanly. We know who the good guys and the bad guys are in a situation like that. People like that. It gives them a place to direct all their emotional energies. But you never do a univariate analysis to determine the cause of such complex issues. It's way too complex. We know racism exists, and we know it plays a role in these things, but if we approach it all univariately we'll never know the degree to which it is responsible for such things. And, most importantly, what to do and what not to do about it all

    So, before we get too emotional, we have to know the truth first, imo. We have the extreme left saying it's all about race, and the extreme right saying it's very little to do with race. The answer is likely somewhere in the middle. And that's what I'm interested in, that middle.

    But in the current climate, the middle appears to represent the radical right to many left leaning folks. If you reject that racism, exclusively, is the reason for all of this, and question the motives and actions of BLM, you're not only attacked ruthlessly and called all sorts of unpleasant names, you could very likely lose your job too. There is no room for dissent, and I find that highly disturbing.

    I'm no fan of the far right. At all. The reason I'm going after the left here is because they are holding all the power, in nearly all dimensions. And I think they're going way too far with the identity politics games and the social justice, postmodern stunts

    I fear BLM has set themselves up as a quasi religion, and any sort of compassion offered from whites has to go thru them, and has to be in the form of a confession. That's the problem here. You have to prostrate yourself, and confess to your hypothetical sins; you have to accept the doctrine of white privilege, white supremacy, etc. Anything less is unacceptable, and makes you "part of the problem". And even if you do confess to all this crap in the kangaroo court of social justice public opinion, you will still be regarded as sh!t..because the most angry and bitter and resentful of the activists don't want to forgive anyone. They just want to carry on being angry and bitter, to justify what they proclaim are purely racial injustices.

    So, offering compassion often means getting tangled up in a web of several catch 22's. Not offering compassion also puts one in a catch-22. So, what to do?

    As far as the police, I'm much more worried about them becoming defunded or disbanded than militarized. I'm all for police protocol opening itself up for change; I think that needs to happen. From where I'm sitting, there is quite a bit of police violence that could be lessened or stopped altogether. I don't understand why they shoot to kill, when, if they have to shoot at all, they don't shoot to immobilize first. I think there are deescalation techniques they could implement. I think they need to be trained in some fighting disciplines, so as to make guns less necessary. I think they may need to be completely retrained. And that would actually require more funds, not less. I dunno, just brainstorming here
    Last edited by Mike; 21st June 2020 at 07:52.

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    Default Re: The Dangers of “Living While Black” in the USA

    I pretty much see things the same as your last post Mike, at this point in time.

    I've also pondered the shoot to kill, or disable idea, and I think shooting to kill is cheaper. States would have to pay for medical costs. Don't think they would get out of that one especially as most criminals probably couldn't afford the bills. So sadly I don't imagine that protocol will change.

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    Default Re: The Dangers of “Living While Black” in the USA

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)

    So, offering compassion often means getting tangled up in a web of several catch 22's. Not offering compassion also puts one in a catch-22. So, what to do?
    Here's an idea.


    I am trying to see where you are coming from mike, and after a few days of immersing myself in Jordan Peterson rhetoric which I see you use as a basis for your arguments I think that you as well as Jordan convolute different ideas.

    We all love our mother (well most people do anyway) With Hitler instantiating mothers day did we stop fighting fascism?
    Now with All the Black Life Matter protests. Does the message change now that it appears as if Antifa and other "possibly violent" groups use it as a ground to push their own agenda"s. I honestly don't think so.

    If not george floyd, look at Breonna Taylor's death. And there are countless others.
    You stated before to take a look at the deaths to see if it were black on black or white on black killings. I did and wondered.
    Does the fact that which race kill a black man make a difference? I don't think so.

    Black lifes do matter, And at this time in our current worldly **** show I am convinced that we can hold space for just that idea without disregarding the other stuff that matters also.
    The one does not exclude the other or poses the definite threat of another genocide where whites are usurped by blacks..

    With Love
    Eelco

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    Default Re: The Dangers of “Living While Black” in the USA

    Quote Posted by Sarah Rainsong (here)
    BLM was started on social media. It's a simple phrase that's easily shared. Living in America as a black can get you killed... for no other reason than being black. It was intended as a rallying cry, not a divisive one. It was--and for most actual people, is--intended as a starting point to address systemic changes.
    And yes, it has been hijacked, but not nearly to the extent as it's often portrayed. What in the hell does Antifa have to do with police brutality for instance? And who was strategically placing those pallets full of bricks for them? Now we have this weird Maoist type anarchist subculture tagging along for the ride, not mention the already present, but ever ridiculous, woke culture.

    Quote Posted by Sarah Rainsong (here)
    This forum, of all places, should really understand that danger. Not to us! But to the TPTB. They will never allow the people to rally against injustice. They will fight it tooth and nail. And how do they fight it? By pitting people against people. And so the left side takes things further than it was ever actually intended to go and the right responds by slamming the door against the whole thing.

    And those of you that are so intent of slamming the door against BLM are just helping them along. Acknowledging the systemic problems that blacks face in America is the starting point. We should be discussing how to keep a genuine effort at addressing the injustices shoved on us by TPTB from being hijacked. We should be discussing what to do now that TPTB have obviously sent in their goons on both sides.
    Here's a good, ongoing example of this: CHOP in Seattle. Watch MSNBC, and they're making out to something akin to tailgaters before a Grateful Dead concert. It's not.

    Watch FOX NEWS, and the CHICOM infiltrators now have a beach head in their long awaited march to turn America Communist. It's not that either.

    Now if I tell the MSNBC stalwart that this is not just a nice lil street party, I'm automatically an enemy from the crazy right winger camp. If I tell the FOX NEWS stalwart that this is not a CHICOM beach head, why I'm automatically in the crazy left winger camp.

    This is but one of the myriad of ways we're being divided on this.

    Why can't we just look at it for what it is? And again, whatever happened to the peaceful police brutality protesters? Well again they're being marginalized, and the closest we usually are shown are the bad apples amongst them, the rioters and looters.

    In the US, one is almost forced to choose a side. Once you have chosen a side, you are on the side of the righteous cause, and the other side is the deadly wild beast that must be defeated at all cost. This mindset allows for zero introspection, very little nuance, and never ever ever the two sides shall meet.

    Divide and Conquer 101.

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    ..my question is this: Do you really understand what equity means? I don't think the average person has any idea what that means when it's being uttered by activists. It doesn't mean equality in any kind of conventional sense; what it means is equality of outcome.
    Well first off Mike, who is the "activist" being asked the question of what equity means? Activist Martin Luther King will tell you the answer is we judge a man by the content of his character, not the color of his skin, and that equity means equal opportunity for all.

    Activist Woke Culture will tell you the answer is equity of outcome.

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    Many of us are viewing this from the extremes. That's what we're all most frightened of so it's understandable in that sense. I'm guilty of this too. Taken to it's extreme, racism brings us things like the KKK, and Hitler. On the flip side, taken to the extreme, social justice-postmodern-neo marxism offers us Mao and Stalin as historical examples. In our debates, we're viewing each other as Hitler's and Mao's and Stalin's, and not the intellectually reasonable and heart-centered people most of us actually are.
    Yes, exactly what I'm getting at. And I don't think it's by accident that many of us feel so compelled to have to choose one extreme or the other. I'm having none of it that my choices are, as you put it, between "KKK and Hitler" on one side, and "extreme, social justice-postmodern-neo Marxism" on the flip side.

    Nonsense!

    I'm also having none of it with my choice either being defund the police, or carry on as usual.

    Nonsense!

    What about real, substantial police reform, even if it costs more money.

    This is where we become paralyzed, the great divide between extremes. And again, through all of this, look who's still only being shown little notice, and getting only lip service? The people still protesting the original problem, police brutality.

    Speaking of which, I highly recommend watching just 10 minutes of this video (from 2:00 - 12:00), of ex Navy Seal Jocko Willing describing to Joe Rogan how police should, be trained.
    Last edited by Gracy; 21st June 2020 at 14:24.

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    Default Re: The Dangers of “Living While Black” in the USA

    You know what?

    I no longer believe this is an issue at all.

    Also, the movement is far smaller than it is made out to be. Not even the young are this naive. There are, as usual, a few dedicated individuals, the rest are just followers who don't even know what the issues are. If it wasn't for the organized assault of the media in general, it would be a quaint side-bar on the fifth page of newspapers. Agitators try to highjack BLM movement but fail, the head line would read.

    And we'd clean up the streets and move on. But no, the media slams us upside the head every day about it, as if we didn't know BLM! Or that the police don't know it. Or Trump don't know it. There is a problem alright, we all know it. But it is way beyond BLM to address it or deal with it. Should I bring up MLK? Black Panthers? Would they do this? Well maybe. But they would not do it associated with Soros or Antifa or OAC.

    BLM, the organization. Nope. BLM as a statement of fact, yes.
    End of story, for me anyway.

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    Default Re: The Dangers of “Living While Black” in the USA

    hey Catsquotyl, I'm glad you're exposing yourself to Jordan Peterson. That's cool. And I'm glad you're challenging his ideas too. Even cooler. I respect that.

    I'm a huge fan of his, that's true. But, aside from my own brain, my ideas come from a wide variety of people. Most of them are under the loose umbrella of the "intellectual dark web". Peterson just happens to be the most well known. There's also Bret Weinstein, Eric Weinstein, Heather Heying, Helen Pluckrose, Dave Rubin, Joe Rogan, Christina Hoff Summers, Steven Pinker, Sam Harris, Douglas Murray, and on and on. It's a long list!

    I also am influenced by Nietzsche, Dostoevsky, Jung, Bukowski, Hemingway, and many other people I've read over the years.

    As far as who is killing who, black on black, white on white etc, you're right: ultimately, citing statistics hardly matters in the immediate aftermath of tragedies like Breonna Taylor and George Floyd. Compassion is the only appropriate response. But, if we're going to play fast and loose with the racial blame game in the ensuing weeks, the statistics become relevant again.

    Hey just curious: did you ever attend the protest with your daughter?
    Last edited by Mike; 21st June 2020 at 16:05.

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    Default Re: The Dangers of “Living While Black” in the USA

    Yes. Just returned 20 minutes ago.
    Only violence I witnessed were some racist comment made on social media to come disrupt this demonstration and **** up some black people.

    But I think they all went to the haque, to beat up on copes because a demo there against covid-19 regulations was cancelled.

    With Love

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    Default Re: The Dangers of “Living While Black” in the USA

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    hey Catsquotyl, I'm glad you're exposing yourself to Jordan Peterson. That's cool.
    It's also a bit creepy. And under certain circumstances can get him thrown in jail.

    See, this is a good example of how communication via computer verses talking to someone face to face can lead to misunderstandings and possibly arguments. (Just a reminder).
    Last edited by Tintin; 21st June 2020 at 17:32.
    I am enlightened, ............ Oh wait. That's just the police shining their spotlights on me.

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    Default Re: The Dangers of “Living While Black” in the USA

    Before I post my own considered views on this important thread I wondered for a moment that some of the extraordinarily pertinent observations in this piece may serve as a locus. And as a means to restoring some intellectual balance. Do note that I do not consider myself either 'left' or 'right'.

    Published in the American Conservative - ah, I can feel one or two already wincing ( ) - but do stick with it; more than one or two paragraphs here are worthy of understanding as thoroughly as possible before we further disappear into the pandemic intellectual quicksand currently engulfing us. If we can arrest that decline in some small way, we may be making some progress.

    Some have expressed concerns about perceived 'rightist' leanings, others, like myself am extraordinarily vigilant where it concerns 'leftist' leanings that may now have, indeed, gone too far.

    In deference to the intent of the thread OP I'd propose that one of the greatest 'dangers' is the adoption of extraordinarily flawed and weaponised ideologies as a vehicle. (I might caution against hitching your wagon to anything that might impair the optimal functioning of a free mind.). Just one reason why I personally don't do movements or join any of them. Really, I just don't. Ironic when you consider that in many respects the Avalon Forum could well be considered one; one that is trying to get to the Truth, whatever that may be.

    (In this article references to teleological arguments are made, being, an argument for an intelligent design from a creator source based upon the perceived evidence - it isn't an unscientific viewpoint, rather incorporates that in its assertion.)

    ___________________________
    "Moreover, with due respect to Woodlief and Kendall, those who support Antifa and Black Lives Matter have hardly failed to recognize that there is “Truth” in the world. They simply reject the moral right of their enemies to express other views. This is a moral stand, hardly a relativistic one, and it is a political-existential one, in the sense in which Carl Schmitt understood “the Concept of the Political” as the most intensely antagonistic of human relationships. It is unimaginable that the more fervent and more activist side in our culture wars is not driven by its own morality, which expresses itself in rage.

    One might also question whether the Left has ever believed consistently in something called “moral relativism” or whether it has merely appealed to it as a tactic to disarm opponents. Certainly the pro-communist leftists with whom Kendall debated were not likely to “relativize” Nazism or even the Francoist regime in Spain or South African Apartheid the way they did Soviet tyranny."
    The Left Has Gone Far Beyond ‘Relativism’

    Theirs is a moral crusade, with offending opinions and ways of life---all Western---to be stamped out.
    JUNE 19, 2020|1:14 PM by Paul Gottfried



    Around the middle of the last century, American conservatives came to regard “relativism” as an essential characteristic of the Left.

    Political theorist and onetime Yale professor Willmoore Kendall, who had been the teacher of William F. Buckley, was the best-known exponent of this position. Kendall was particularly concerned that liberals in post-World War II America were unwilling to stand up to communist infiltration and Soviet aggression, at least not in the decisive manner that he and his student, who became the animating spirit of the conservatism of that age, would have desired.


    Kendall’s explanation, which others echoed and, in some cases, anticipated, was that many intellectuals believed “in an unlimited right to think and say what you please, with impunity and without let or hindrance.” Particularly in the face of the communist threat, Kendall thought that Americans would have to give up the idea of an “open society.” They would have to grasp that “any viable society has an orthodoxy—a set of fundamental beliefs, implicit in its way of life, that it cannot, should not, and, in any case, will not submit to the vicissitudes of the marketplace.”

    Kendall viewed English democrat and feminist John Stuart Mill as a particularly dangerous thinker on political questions. He was convinced Mill’s best-known work, On Liberty, had gone too far in advocating an “open society.”

    Mill set out to defend the right of totally free inquiry but, according to Kendall, landed squarely on relativism. In The Conservative Affirmation (1963), Kendall traced the non-judgmentalism of many Americans when faced by the communist threat to Mill’s willingness to consider all views and opinions. According to Kendall, Mill helped create America’s “national religion of skepticism” and made it increasingly difficult for Americans to hold on to what was left of a traditional society. Mill also dealt with moral issues by encouraging the pursuit of truth without accepting “truth itself with all its accumulated riches to date.”

    In a moving tribute to Kendall, Tom Woodlief, writing recently at The American Conservative, declared that “this outcast Yale professor predicted 2020 better than his erstwhile colleagues.” Kendall had warned against “the suicidal pact with relativism,” which is now driving the antifascist Left. According to him, “the doyens of the suicidal society will feel an irresistible compulsion to silence the voices insisting that there is truth, even Truth, and that therefore many other beliefs are in error.”

    Please note that I fully share Mr. Woodlief’s admiration for Kendall and especially for his writings on the formation of American constitutional government and his perceptive reading of the political theory of John Locke. Where I must part company is in Kendall’s attribution to the Left of a fixation with an “open society.” Equally open to question is Kendall’s treatment of Mill’s On Liberty, a work that Maurice Cowling, Linda Rader, and Joseph Hamburger have all interpreted differently from Kendall. These scholars have documented that Mill was far less interested in open discussion than he was in other ends. Above all, he was trying to build a secular society based on a consensus centered on scientific truth. Mill was an explicit 19th-century progressive who believed that open inquiry would advance his teleological goals.

    Moreover, with due respect to Woodlief and Kendall, those who support Antifa and Black Lives Matter have hardly failed to recognize that there is “Truth” in the world. They simply reject the moral right of their enemies to express other views. This is a moral stand, hardly a relativistic one, and it is a political-existential one, in the sense in which Carl Schmitt understood “the Concept of the Political” as the most intensely antagonistic of human relationships. It is unimaginable that the more fervent and more activist side in our culture wars is not driven by its own morality, which expresses itself in rage.

    One might also question whether the Left has ever believed consistently in something called “moral relativism” or whether it has merely appealed to it as a tactic to disarm opponents. Certainly the pro-communist leftists with whom Kendall debated were not likely to “relativize” Nazism or even the Francoist regime in Spain or South African Apartheid the way they did Soviet tyranny.

    Russell Kirk liked to tell the story of a leftist acquaintance who claimed to have a perfectly open mind. When Kirk asked his interlocutor who was morally superior, “Jesus of Nazareth or Stalin,” this fellow seemed unable to rate those figures by the required standard. But when he was asked who was worse, Hitler or Stalin, Kirk’s acquaintance would immediately respond “Hitler.” I had similar experiences with advocates of the “open society” before the Left gave up its facade of universal tolerance. It may be that dishonesty, not relativism, was the problem with how the Left has presented itself.

    If one were to ask what exactly the Left has believed about morality over the decades, I would begin by pointing out that the most important concept is equality. The Left has never denied this and I see no reason to question that commitment. What seems to me striking is the Left’s preoccupation with equality to the neglect of other values that seem at least as much deserving of respect, such as deference to elders, respect for the achievements of one’s civilization, piety, freedom, and so on. We might also question how the Left understands its highest value, which is clearly different from the way non-leftists might approach it. For example, some may think that equality before the law is enough; others may want equal voting rights, and still others may believe it is the duty of the state to reduce its citizens or subjects to the same living conditions.

    The present Left also seems interested in imposing equality of esteem for those whom it designates as historical victims. This is certainly not an expression of relativism but an attempt to carry a highest value one step beyond where it was carried in the past. The drive toward a more total equality brings with it a host of human problems, anarcho-tyranny as seen in cities like Seattle right now being the most obvious. But the belief that all values are relative does not in any way seem to have influenced this course of events.

    Another curious characteristic of the Left is how furiously it reacts to Western failures to meet its fastidious standards of equality. The existence of economic disparities in Western countries drove generations of leftists to look for answers in communism, or at least to treat communist governments as efforts to create more “just” or more “scientifically run” societies. The enemy then and afterwards was “fascism” and it remained so long after the Second World War. Fascism has been defined as a chronic Western disease, arising out of specifically Western cultural and religious attitudes rooted in bigotry. Fascism used to be explained with reference to those who controlled the means of production. It was an ideological tool for oppressing the poor and maintaining colonial empires. In its more contemporary form, fascism has become whatever the intersectional Left considers to be morally reprehensible. Since the list of fascist offenses continues to grow by the minute, the only moral way to deal with this right-wing pestilence is by “canceling culture.” Only by getting rid of all reminders of a traditional Western society can we protect ourselves from the pervasive fascist menace.

    Yet somehow the evils we are supposed to combat never appear anywhere outside the West. Other societies live in a perpetual state of grace as victims of the West or as examples of what we might become with the proper reeducation. The late Paul Hollander wrote a voluminous study on “political pilgrims” who visited “progressive” or Marxist societies, where they hoped to find human perfection. Hollander’s “pilgrims” were hardly relativists. They were fixated on a highest value, usually equality, but equality combined with scientific management, which they imagined was being realized in some distant place but not in their own country.

    Where Kendall was correct was in grasping that the Left was destroying traditional human attachments, where people are integrated into families and communities. There, morality operates in an inherited social context, and not in the pursuit of highest values. Although one may be skeptical about the portentous importance that Kendall ascribed to relativism, his description of a society without shared premises descending into “ever-deepening differences of opinion” is accurate. So was his prediction that such a society would descend “into the abandonment of the discussion process and the arbitrament of public questions by violence and civil war.”

    Article source: https://www.theamericanconservative....nd-relativism/

    _____________________________

    Paul Gottfried is the editor-in-chief of Chronicles. He is also Raffensperger Professor of Humanities Emeritus at Elizabethtown College, where he taught for 25 years, a Guggenheim recipient, and a Yale Ph.D. He is the author of 13 books, most recently Fascism: Career of a Concept and Revisions and Dissents.
    “If a man does not keep pace with [fall into line with] his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away.” - Thoreau

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    Default Re: The Dangers of “Living While Black” in the USA

    The first step is to acknowledge that there is a problem.

    Even as an European I can see that there has been terrible systematic racism in America which has never been properly addressed. It only has been festering. I think it's embarrassing when we white people think we could know what our black brothers and sisters have to go through on a day to day basis there. We have only heard the stories. As empaths we can feel their pain, but can we truly understand it? At least I personally try. We can't turn our eyes and ears away from injustice.

    "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly." ~ Martin Luther King Jr.

    To me MLK was the greatest champion of freedom that ever lived. He spoke about true equality between all races and all classes. Why is it so hard to achieve? Why are people still on a such low level of vibration that we get stuck into issues about race? You truly know that a civilization is not very advanced when we still have big issues like this to overcome. How can you teach more empathy? I wish I had the answer. But I am willing to listen and not to shy away from problems or deny them.

    People feel uncomfortable about issues like this and the truth is that yes we should indeed feel uncomfortable about it, because that's our conscience whispering to our ears. Thank God we still have it as it means that we still have our souls intact.


    Last edited by Wind; 21st June 2020 at 18:46.
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    Default Re: The Dangers of “Living While Black” in the USA

    So, after starting this thread and responding to the first few posts following my original one, it quickly became obvious that my responses were, eh, not terribly well thought out, shall we say?

    Quote Posted by Dorjezigzag (here)
    How can you say this is an issue of racism when 93 per cent of black victims were killed by blacks.
    Dorjezigzag, I apologize for flying off the handle. As Mike and Gracy rightly pointed out, I was out of line and I am sorry.

    Quote Posted by Luke Holiday (here)
    Ken, the reason that your quote is shortened and highlighted is that I have been told not to repost entire large posts in quotes…
    Quote Posted by lunaflare (here)
    Not wise for white folk to do any of these things in certain parts of Oakland, California…
    And I’m sorry for the way I responded to you, Luke, and you, lunaflare.

    I obviously care deeply about this subject, as I’m sure you who have responded in your posts on this and other threads, do as well. Interesting.. and to be honest, disheartening to me, that the subject is apparently so fraught. Nevertheless, to everyone who has posted on this thread, I do greatly appreciate your input.

    AutumnW and Mike, I applaud your very reasonable dialogue. However, no matter how much Jordan Peterson, Bret Weinstein, Joe Rogan, and other folks I listen to, and no matter how many great authors and thinkers I read, there is in my mind, no excuse for continuing the oppression and subjugation of people due to the color of their skin.

    Catsquotl, thank you for your beautiful post here:

    Quote Posted by Catsquotl (here)
    …If not george floyd, look at Breonna Taylor's death. And there are countless others.
    You stated before to take a look at the deaths to see if it were black on black or white on black killings. I did and wondered.

    Does the fact that which race kill a black man make a difference? I don't think so.

    Black lifes do matter, And at this time in our current worldly **** show I am convinced that we can hold space for just that idea without disregarding the other stuff that matters also.

    The one does not exclude the other or poses the definite threat of another genocide where whites are usurped by blacks…
    And, Mike, thank you for responding the way you did, you have such a beautiful heart, I think you were dead right when you said:

    Quote Posted by Mike (here)
    …As far as who is killing who, black on black, white on white etc, you're right: ultimately, citing statistics hardly matters in the immediate aftermath of tragedies like Breonna Taylor and George Floyd. Compassion is the only appropriate response...
    I think heart is what we need more of. More heart and intuition and less analytical thinking.

    I know from having worked through a number of statistics courses in pursuit of my graduate degrees, statistics are highly malleable, easily manipulated, and often deliberately skewed. The way data is collected is often flawed even in the best-case scenarios, and intentionally filtered and misrepresented in other cases. As the not so old computer programming saying goes, “Garbage in, garbage out.” This is a term widely used in statistics as well.

    But don’t let me dissuade you from your mental gymnastics.. your cerebral contortions. I recognize that there are many agendas and influences that have been inserted into this issue.. this movement.

    It’s just not the way that I am guided.
    Last edited by Forest Denizen; 25th July 2020 at 22:29.
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    Default Re: The Dangers of “Living While Black” in the USA

    Ken,

    We are on the same page here. You not only have to feel with your heart, you have to think with it, too. Like Mike, I am highly emotional and afraid of either losing control of my emotions or being suckered as a consequence of them. I retreat into the analytical to protect myself (and others around me. LOL)

    What's interesting to me, is this part of my personality is undergoing a rapid change and it has something to do with George Floyd's death. It made me cry, and after that happened, I was able to cry about injustices that have always bothered me, always gotten under my skin. I just never let them touch my heart before. I was too protected.

    Much love to everybody, and I mean this deeply.

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    Default Re: The Dangers of “Living While Black” in the USA

    In our ‘emocracy,’ emotions rule

    We no longer live in a democracy. We live in an emocracy — where emotions rather than majorities rule and feelings matter more than reason. The stronger your feelings — the better you are at working yourself into a fit of indignation — the more influence you have. And never use words where emojis will do.

    There was a time when appeals to emotion over facts were regarded as the preserve of the populist right. But truthiness — the quality of being ideologically convenient, though not actually true — is now bipartisan. On a recent “60 Minutes,’’ Anderson Cooper confronted freshman congresswoman and social media sensation Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez with some of her many factual errors. Her reply was that of a true emocrat: “I think,” she replied, “that there’s a lot of people more concerned about being precisely, factually, and semantically correct than about being morally right.”



    Just how harmful emocracy is became clear a week ago, when the following headlines appeared: “’It was getting ugly’: Native American drummer speaks on his encounter with MAGA-hat-wearing teens.” And: “Boys in ‘Make America Great Again’ Hats Mob Native Elder at Indigenous Peoples March.” The former was in The Washington Post; the latter The New York Times. The reports were calculated to elicit a torrent of emotion. And they did.

    What actually happened was as follows. A group of (nearly all white) boys from Covington Catholic High School, Kentucky, were in Washington to attend a rally organized by March for Life, an antiabortion nonprofit organization. They ended up in an altercation near the Lincoln Memorial with a small group of Native Americans.


    One of the Native Americans, Nathan Phillips, later told reporters that he had heard the boys chant “Build that wall,” and, as an opponent of President Trump’s border wall, he had approached them to remonstrate. We now know — thanks to other eyewitnesses and a much longer video — what really happened. The Native Americans were indeed abused, but by a handful of members of the Black Hebrew Israelites, an African-American sect.


    It was the preacher of the Black Hebrew Israelites who directed the attention of the Native Americans at the boys. The boys did not chant “Build that wall” but responded to the abuse now being aimed at them by the Black Hebrew Israelites with good-natured school sports chants. When Phillips and a few other Native Americans marched toward them, beating drums, the boys at first joined in, dancing to the drumbeat. Only then did things get strange.

    Still drumming, Phillips approached one of the boys, Nick Sandmann. Clearly uncomfortable and uncertain what to do, Sandmann froze, but Phillips went right up to him, beating the drum so close to his face that the boy was blinking. His forced smile, it is clear, was one of embarrassment, not contempt.

    Meanwhile, the Black Hebrew Israelites kept up their stream of abuse directed at the kids, but the boys did not respond in kind. They booed the preacher only when he used a disparaging word.

    As the father of four boys, I give the Covington Catholic pupils an A for self-restraint. Unfortunately, we live in an emocracy, where self-restraint is at a discount. The Twitter account that helped spread the video — @2020Fight — purported to belong to a Californian teacher named “Talia.” The fact that the profile photo was of the Brazilian actress Nah Cardoso did not apparently trouble The Washington Post editor who assigned reporters to cover the story. Nor did he apparently worry when they filed copy based largely on testimony from Phillips. This scoop was too deliciously truthy to waste time on tedious things like investigation and corroboration.

    https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/...9FL/story.html
    “One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious. The latter procedure, however, is disagreeable and therefore not popular.” (Carl Jung)

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    Default Re: The Dangers of “Living While Black” in the USA

    Quote Posted by Dorjezigzag (here)
    ...Just how harmful emocracy is became clear a week ago, when the following headlines appeared: “’It was getting ugly’: Native American drummer speaks on his encounter with MAGA-hat-wearing teens.” And: “Boys in ‘Make America Great Again’ Hats Mob Native Elder at Indigenous Peoples March.” The former was in The Washington Post; the latter The New York Times. The reports were calculated to elicit a torrent of emotion. And they did...[/URL]
    Dorjezigzag, I'm not sure why you are posting this on the thread, The Dangers of “Living While Black” in the USA

    First of all, this has nothing to do with the dangers of “living while black” in the USA, second, this event occurred in January of 2019.

    Your post might seem to some as if you are trolling this thread.. or me.

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