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Thread: The "Right-Left" dichotomy: false, simplistic, & manipulative.

  1. Link to Post #21
    England Avalon Member
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    Default Re: The "Right-Left" dichotomy: false, simplistic, & manipulative.

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    I posted earlier that the so-called "Right-Left spectrum" is really a circle. "Extreme Right" (Fascism) and "Extreme Left" (Communism) are actually the same thing.

    Is present-day China Fascist or Communist? Answer: It's both. There we see it. And there are plenty more examples in history.

    But the following is what irks me. Drilling down into all the rhetoric, we can distill out all these variable viewpoints. They do NOT all correlate neatly.

    And they pertain to every country. This isn't just about the US.
    1. Personal and corporate tax policy.
    2. Federal/national financial policy. (not the same thing)
    3. Foreign policy.
    4. Disarmament.
    5. Immigration.
    6. Refugees.
    7. Environmental issues.
    8. Education.
    9. Transgenderism and LGBT issues.
    10. Policing and law and order.
    11. Recreational drugs.
    12. Personal surveillance and privacy.
    13. Censorship and freedom of speech.
    14. Gun control.
    15. Abortion.
    16. Governmental control of personal health and well-being.
    17. Racism (whatever that means!).
    18. Religion.
    19. Regional independence.
    If we look at all the different possible permutations of viewpoints there, even approximating crudely, there are 219 combinations. That's over 520,000 different ways of categorizing any person's opinions.

    Each time we add another variable (for sure, there are more), that number doubles. And we've not even included which politicians or parties one might vote for in any election.

    If we held a poll (we won't! ) that suggests that no two Avalonians would have the same sets of views — even very roughly.

    So personally, I refuse to be categorized on that simplistic kindergarten-level spectrum. I have my own views, all subject to change. The world is complicated, hard to understand, and we are too.

    None of us should get into fights about any of this. But what we can do here (and do do!) is share good information and perspectives to help others continue to modify and fine-tune their views. That's how we all learn.
    @Bill - I used to think that extreme Left and Right met together in totalitarianism; but now I think that is not correct - at least not when twentieth century tyrannies are considered; because all the totalitarian regimes were (if understood in a world-historical framework) of-the-Left, and were secular/ atheist.

    The idea that Nazis were 'right wing' is a lie of the communists and socialist; as should have been obvious from their official name of National Socialist German Workers Party. They were atheist, anti-Christian, and retained the Weimar Republic's abolition of the aristocracy and titles. What the Nazis were is a Leftist reaction against communism. So they can best be understood as a pro-nationalist, militaristic and anti-communist form of Leftism. Mussolini's regime was similar - it got its appeal as an anti-communist pro-nationalist workers movement - Mussolini had been a socialist. As had Oswald Moseley.

    Franco was likewise an anti-communist nationalist militarist - but he ruled jointly with the Roman Catholic church - which was an alliance of anti-communists, because the church had been the major target for the Republican forces in the Spanish Civil War - as I understand, most of the Republican atrocities were directed against priests, monks and nuns (and, according to Orwell, by the communists against the socialists and anarchists who were 'on the same side').

    In other words; I think the supposed examples of totalitarian right "Fascism" are better understood as anti-communist leftism - and the category of 'Fascism' covers a rather disparate collection of a variety of secular left but anti-communist movements.

    What this means is the totalitarianism, in the twentieth century meaning, is a phenomenon of left-atheism; and totalitarianism should be distinguished from the numerous 'theocratic states' that existed in pre-twentieth century history, and still exist in some places - although currently none are Christian. If we want to use the category of Right in the 21st century, the theocracies are really the only reasonably distinct category from the mainstream and universal leftism of the developed world.

  2. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Bruce G Charlton For This Post:

    Bill Ryan (29th March 2023), Dennis Leahy (28th September 2023), Ernie Nemeth (29th March 2023), Harmony (30th March 2023), Johan (Keyholder) (29th March 2023), Yoda (28th September 2023)

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    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: The "Right-Left" dichotomy: false, simplistic, & manipulative.

  4. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Bill Ryan For This Post:

    avid (28th September 2023), Dennis Leahy (28th September 2023), Harmony (28th September 2023), Yoda (28th September 2023)

  5. Link to Post #23
    England Avalon Member
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    Default Re: The "Right-Left" dichotomy: false, simplistic, & manipulative.

    How did I miss this great thread ? 😖
    "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable" (John F Kennedy - 13th March 1962)
    "The only winning move is not to play" (WarGames 1983)

  6. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Miller For This Post:

    Bill Ryan (28th September 2023), Dennis Leahy (28th September 2023), Ewan (28th September 2023), Harmony (28th September 2023), Yoda (28th September 2023)

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