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Thread: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote I guess I would go as far as "Tar" = "string/stringed instrument" and probably is the root word, which probably cannot be traced to anyone's basic original version of the instrument.
    Unlike 'vina' it does not name an instrument, it describes one -- even in English we have people who refer to a guitar as a "six string" (or a 12 string if that's what one has), "Got my first real six string, Bought it at the five and dime, played until my fingers bled, 'twas the summer of '69"

    Quote With Tara producing a drop, etc., this sounds along the lines of Tarodbhava Kurukulla, at least the bliss part, if the nausea experience is really a specifically personal thing done as a damage repair mode, which is supposed to be Tara's...I might say secondary function, although one could argue it is primary if one feels no fears to be removed.
    The nausea and bliss when the drop is split feel towards each other like maybe matter and antimatter -- the nausea waxes and wanes in complete mirror image to its twin bliss. I spent a month of Sundays working on why it works physically, it sets up a kind of a "cognitive dissonance" within the vagus nerve is what I came up with. In spiritual terms, it feels 'cleansing'. I would suppose that it might be cast as removing fears, the breathing problem is quite serious and has a kind of heavy feel to it as if it were deadly (it isn't but I suppose it could be, just never has been for me).

    Quote Again, this is like an invocative concentration. Once one has stabilization with the Murti there is no reason she would have to remain seated and why she cannot converse about anything you can and much more. This one mainly means a Karma Tara using a power more frequently associated with Lotus Family.
    I think I described the one in my shaking to you before, she does not appear dressed properly (has some kind of a helmet) and carries a halberd of some kind, and is never sitting. She frequently uses the halberd to (this is going to sound somehow formal but is meant literally) cut my attachment to something, usually my attachment to what ever I'm giving up, like maybe the breathing problem, but this time she only used it to flail uselessly in the air with it as a demonstration of how without more strength my personal attempts to root out something bad wouldn't work -- I am slowly getting the picture she wants me to revamp my breathing again in my standing.

    Quote These Vistara deities certainly have the most digestive look at whatever is going on with their bhajans, which appear to have to do with attracting Jnana Sattvas.
    The split bliss with the nausea I can also apparently create it a different way. Last night I went to bed determined to carry out Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's agenda for doing dream yoga -- first sleep visualize a red lotus at the throat, second a white tigle at the brow, third a multicolored lotus with a black hum at the heart, forth a black tigle at the genitals -- which is if you happen to wake that many times. I did and couldn't get his scheme to work, but instead managed to make a big practice night of entering the state between waking and sleep or sleep and shaking or shaking and sleep and staying there -- body partly or completely not there, kind of a liquidy bliss state but from which one can seemingly go anywhere in an instant. They seemed to think it was big progress. From the lucid dreaming or dream yoga point of view it was a failure.

    Which brings me to the point of telling you this -- it was a state of formlessness, and he mentions that but his state like that is like others describe it (he labels it dharmakaya) luminous empty space. My state was formless, it was luminous in various ways, but it did not feel like empty space, it felt like warm liquid. Any idea what it was?

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    Couldn't it be 'prathama tu dvitIya svara' + 'yojitam' so that it becomes, 'first and second notes together'? In my dictionary, pancamasya is another name for the Indian cuckoo or koil, which you mentioned.
    Maybe, but I would expect it to say Prathamasvara, as it does in five or six other sadhanas that have that.

    Yes Kokila Svara is Panchasvara, which makes sense with Vajravarahi making Panchasvara into Five Nectars, if Kokila was like the first tantric gatekeeper.



    Quote Wow, I did not know that sukla-moonlight could be construed as 'flame, brilliant...', that precipitates a whole new way of looking at it.
    Here it was Mayukha which carried the "flame" meaning, but, yes, I think that Sukla has been described anywhere from soft to overwhelming. With Mrtyuvacana it sounds like some of it is tending towards white fire.



    Quote There are 7 animal sounds in what you wrote, I think I heard you say at one point there were 21 Taras. So there is a 3 somewhere?
    Yes, that is how it is supposed to work. They could be Tri-kaya, Tri-Loka, or Outer Inner and Secret, three rings of seven.

    It is--it is a mysterious Dharani that is Twenty-one Taras. It is the song itself in twenty-one verses. It is not really a sum total of all possible Taras, and for the most part it is not an actual set or retinue of Taras.

    It would be more accurate to say that various Taras have been selected to participate in the song--and these are different according to different sources.

    Then, for example, most traditions begin it with Vira Tara, a Red Eight Arm form having a pair of hands pointing straight up.

    She is not found in any other sources, so, my suggestion is Pitheshvari, who is the Tara of the first Mahasiddha, Saraha, and, she is still red.

    Otherwise, I only find a handful of questionable areas where one might deviate from the regular version which contains many of the ones we are familiar with, such as Cunda or Sarasvati, Parnasabari, Marici, and so on.

    One of my questions was Tara Fourteen since a Wrathful Bhrkuti is not found in any other sadhanas. But we found from Nepal that it is a unique Blue Six Arm Wrathful Bhrkuti.

    And so in a few spots, I simply suggest stitching in a few such as Amaravajra or Vajra Tara, because Sadhanamala is a major Tara basket from Ratnagiri which is largely, but not completely, ported to Ngor.

    Because we have found that to this day in Nepal, Mahattari Tara, surely one of the "obscurest" ones, ever, is the beginning of Saptavidhanuttara, then, these Taras are certainly acceptable, and they are the environment in which the twenty-one verse song was composed, which is why Atisha and others have nothing to do with it, and this book does.

    Well, the beginning of it uses Amoghasiddhi as Tri-samaya Raja, and then it immediately insinuates a Dharani-based Six Family system given by Sadakshari Mahavidya, along with using Mahasukha Vajrasattva. So a great deal of "tantric college" is subsumed in its first few pages. You next get several Avalokiteshvaras and Manjushris and a couple Vajrapanis and almost all of the rest of it is almost all Tara. Well, there is Jambhala and a few other males in the missing back half or third. That section includes the major explanatory Vajradaka form of Seven Syllable deity who has Seven Dakinis as the Seven Jewels of Enlightenment; this, perhaps, being ths most explanatory practice of all.

    When I found there were many versions of "System of Tara", I saw that Jonang specifically said we should feel free to question it and research Sanskrit. That was while I was already doing it. Or, it gives the Suryagupta system and tells you to get more from Sadhanamala.

    Suryagupta's system is the only one I know of which specifically uses it as a mandala with the ultimate goal of having Tara Reverse Amoghasiddhi. It uses a "23rd" Tara, i. e. there is a Khadira and Mula Samaya Tara operating outside the retinue..

    Here are the Tara lists of Suryagupta and Nyingma terma.

    And so we are borrowing his pattern which in some cases says something like "Tara Seven is Transference". Well you'd think that would be at the end or something, but it is not. There, she perhaps is the end of the Dharmakaya ring.

    Overall, the forms loosen knots in the subtle body obscuring Twenty-one Qualities of Dharmakaya.

    I cannot recollect the source which specifies Seven is Transference, Eight is Completion Stage, etc., but that is in my notes.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    Unlike 'vina' it does not name an instrument, it describes one -- even in English we have people who refer to a guitar as a "six string" (or a 12 string if that's what one has), "Got my first real six string, Bought it at the five and dime, played until my fingers bled, 'twas the summer of '69"
    Yes, that is the way I have to describe many of these words, x "is not" y, x "is y by way of association".



    Quote I think I described the one in my shaking to you before, she does not appear dressed properly (has some kind of a helmet) and carries a halberd of some kind, and is never sitting. She frequently uses the halberd to (this is going to sound somehow formal but is meant literally) cut my attachment to something, usually my attachment to what ever I'm giving up, like maybe the breathing problem, but this time she only used it to flail uselessly in the air with it as a demonstration of how without more strength my personal attempts to root out something bad wouldn't work -- I am slowly getting the picture she wants me to revamp my breathing again in my standing.
    Ok, I recall that somewhat--"Helmet" usually being worn by a Worldly Deity.

    That was certainly a "gesture" that any martially-trained person should understand with no explanation--useless flailing. Yes, if that is a Karma Tara of some kind, she is going to want you to actually strike the target.

    If it is Cutting Attachment, I would suggest it is Pandara--Raga--Attachment or in her family.

    I don't think we ever found the form you described quite matches anything in the sadhanas.



    Quote Which brings me to the point of telling you this -- it was a state of formlessness, and he mentions that but his state like that is like others describe it (he labels it dharmakaya) luminous empty space. My state was formless, it was luminous in various ways, but it did not feel like empty space, it felt like warm liquid. Any idea what it was?

    Well, it sounds to me like you are near the cusp of Dharmakaya.

    All of the teachings are in setting you face-to-face with it, and it does not teach.

    I might call that feeling Kurukulla: Nectar Saturation. I think she summarizes the beginning drippy drop up to it flowing out all your pores.

    "Formless" is a tricky word. "Liquid" is a form, Apa, Jala, Vari, various terms for Water, which is Vedana or Feeling. Nectar is simply a specialized type of Water.

    I suppose it is a Maha Bhut. You say you have no body, but, mentally, an impression or tendency towards Water is still there, is a Mental Element.

    The highest types of meditation are on the Maha Bhuts.

    Then there is Watery Fire.

    I do not really know anything technical about Dream Yoga.

    I do not really know anything about the Dharmakaya, either, other than I have observed it, and can only affirm that most of what is described about it is almost exactly what it is. To the extent that I would probably never really say much about it, except to quote from Vajradhara or some other source of reverence. Maybe Achi Dharma Tara.

    I can understand the state described, somewhat, or I would say I might have felt this physically while awake. Something like being in a nice warm sea.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Maybe, but I would expect it to say Prathamasvara, as it does in five or six other sadhanas that have that.

    Yes Kokila Svara is Panchasvara, which makes sense with Vajravarahi making Panchasvara into Five Nectars, if Kokila was like the first tantric gatekeeper.
    Yes, maybe, but if you listen to the bird itself, it makes two notes but connected to each other, a sound that might get played on a fretless veena, but not on any fretted Indian instrument and yet could still be related to nectars and a gatekeeper, one could imagine a technique similar to bending a note on a guitar, to make a sound aptly described as connecting two notes in a manner resembling the koyl (not sure how this is supposed to be transliterated correctly), or named for a koyl, that could bring nectar into the music. Especially if done on a deity's veena.

    Quote Here it was Mayukha which carried the "flame" meaning, but, yes, I think that Sukla has been described anywhere from soft to overwhelming. With Mrtyuvacana it sounds like some of it is tending towards white fire.
    Thank you, this is an important puzzle piece in understanding some of the fires in my shakings.

    Quote Well, the beginning of it uses Amoghasiddhi as Tri-samaya Raja, and then it immediately insinuates a Dharani-based Six Family system given by Sadakshari Mahavidya, along with using Mahasukha Vajrasattva. So a great deal of "tantric college" is subsumed in its first few pages. You next get several Avalokiteshvaras and Manjushris and a couple Vajrapanis and almost all of the rest of it is almost all Tara.
    This is something of a progression that seems to happen over and over again. I have seen it in my shaking as well. The basic stuff is male, as the thing gets more and more heated and powerful, maybe more shakti, it becomes more and more female.
    Last edited by Old Student; 10th March 2021 at 20:48.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Okay it is Tibet Art's Suryagupta print which says Seven = Transference (at death or finally), Eight = Completion Stage. For whatever reason, these Taras are not in a linear order like the way of developing sadhanas, but let us see what he says.

    Most of the numbers are assigned roles; One accomplishes enlightened Activity. Two removes nightmares and untimely death (often Sarasvati or Cunda, but we can see implications of Mrtyuvacana there). Three is for prolonging life and enlightened Qualities. Four is Usnisa Vijaya in standard role. Five is Subjugation and removal of fear. Six purifies the Ten Directions.

    Nine = Consecration, Ten = Entering the Mandala, Eleven = Increase, Twelve = Homa, Thirteen Subdues Hindrances; Fourteen or Wrathful Bhrkuti = Circle of Protection, Fifteen = Purifying Mental and Emotional Defilements, Sixteen = Cutting Attachments/Lotus Wisdom, Seventeen subjugates obstacles, Eighteen cures Naga diseases, Nineteen pacifies Dreams, Twenty removes Disease, Twenty-one or Paripurana is Sky-going and attaining Akanistha in this lifetime.

    Tsem Rinpoche also has a Suryagupta article which is less specific about Transference, etc.

    Suryagupta was a lay person who after empowerment by Nagamitra, through intense devotion achieved Tara and 108 of her tantras rather easily.

    And so if we look at Eighteen = Vijaya Tara versus the fact that Janguli is a stand-alone Naga tamer, that is the reason to say maybe Janguli is acceptable here.

    Again if we were directly initiated into Suryagupta, we would not deviate, but if we are not, and this is mainly based on Yogic Praise that does not require initiation, then if we follow as closely as possible with for example Janguli carrying an appropriate meaning, it is fine.

    Some traditions themselves put Twenty = Parnasabari, Twenty-one = Marici, so that is not a personal interpretation on my part.

    Examples such as Amaravajra are, and when I do that, it is based from something in the verse such as reference to a mudra, more or less so that the entire tantric basket becomes familiar, since most of the names and forms in these practices are only used here, they do not speak as well to "blending into the overall system".

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Ok, I recall that somewhat--"Helmet" usually being worn by a Worldly Deity.

    That was certainly a "gesture" that any martially-trained person should understand with no explanation--useless flailing. Yes, if that is a Karma Tara of some kind, she is going to want you to actually strike the target.

    If it is Cutting Attachment, I would suggest it is Pandara--Raga--Attachment or in her family.

    I don't think we ever found the form you described quite matches anything in the sadhanas.
    Yes, we have looked before and there aren't matches, the helmet is very 'Greek' in its depiction, looking like one of those pictured at Thermopylae only cut even at the bottom and without a crest, and enough of the lower face exposed to identify the wearer as female. It is also green as is her skin.

    The blade of the halberd is the non-green thing, it is golden. She cuts very precisely, she was making the point that unless I increased my 'physical' strength, which in familiar terms would be my ability to gather my prana, I was just flailing uselessly.

    Quote I might call that feeling Kurukulla: Nectar Saturation. I think she summarizes the beginning drippy drop up to it flowing out all your pores.
    The nectar, the Kurukulla, the drippy drop all make sense for this, but not the pores, I don't have a form to have pores when this is happening.

    Quote "Formless" is a tricky word. "Liquid" is a form, Apa, Jala, Vari, various terms for Water, which is Vedana or Feeling. Nectar is simply a specialized type of Water.

    I suppose it is a Maha Bhut. You say you have no body, but, mentally, an impression or tendency towards Water is still there, is a Mental Element.

    The highest types of meditation are on the Maha Bhuts.

    Then there is Watery Fire.
    [...]
    Something like being in a nice warm sea.
    The fact that liquid is not yet formless is a useful thing, I do understand why things are categorized as "water" when they are liquid, and I do understand "Watery Fire". But that is where it sort of ends, it is not like a nice warm sea. It is much more viscous, it reifies bliss if that makes sense, and is inherently sexual as a fluid, as well as being inherently female in a shakti is female kind of way. I am not bathed in it, what is left of my form when it touches it is dissolved into it. The mind becomes pretty much just a luminous mass, and is not pointed in the geometrical sense, there is no location of it or center. There is no need to be, since thought as it usually is is not there. But counterfactually for such a feeling of viscous sexual secretions, it is very fast, one can literally use it to travel anywhere in an instant, or to go into and out of dreams, shaking, or any other state.

    Okay, that seems very rambling, and not a perhaps very good description. Nectar combined with some of the fire things might actually describe it very well.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    ...it makes two notes but connected to each other, a sound that might get played on a fretless veena, but not on any fretted Indian instrument and yet could still be related to nectars and a gatekeeper, one could imagine a technique similar to bending a note on a guitar, to make a sound aptly described as connecting two notes in a manner resembling the koyl (not sure how this is supposed to be transliterated correctly), or named for a koyl, that could bring nectar into the music. Especially if done on a deity's veena.
    I suppose there are two aspects: the pitch, which is what you are referring to, and, the rhythm, which...may not be exact, but, is one of the closest natural approximations to a heartbeat.

    As Music, Kokila tone is combined with Matta Matangi rhythm, and this is sort of just information to me, since most competent Indian musicians probably know all this stuff by rote. So I am not sure why a simple thing translates into a more complex pattern, but, that seems to be where the name goes, associated with "sweet sound" instead of "heartbeat rhythm". Maybe it is just a dual meaning: rhythm when thought of that way, or, sweetness, as a type of debut or incipient transcendental sound.

    You should be able to slide or pull off any frets to get a changing pitch. I have played fretless a few times, and, I suppose, it is better/stronger at the effect. The limitation of "bending" is that it can only raise, not lower, unless you do a pre-bend, I could pre-bend a half step and bend up until the string breaks, or, relax, but just down to the actual tone, not lower.



    Quote Thank you, this is an important puzzle piece in understanding some of the fires in my shakings.
    It is a metaphor I have sometimes thought of as "Torch", i. e. one used to light further Fires.

    The Moon, yes, is covered in all its aspects of Waxing and Waning. The true Full Moon is Purnimasa, the Monad, which, in the Puranic Hierarchy, stands considerably higher than "the human being", which is a progeny of Manu and Samjna, still higher than "the animal bodies" produced by Kasyapa.

    Its normal color or white is accessibly presented as multilple Sherab deities: Prajnaparamita, Sarasvati, etc., who begin with the function of increasing mundane intelligence. And then at some point, this white deity--who I would argue progresses in stages, Mrtyuvacana, Four Arm Sita, Six Arm Sukla, Marici, Parasol, Cunda, Amaravajra--is determined to acquire fire or radiance. This closely matches Self-Arisen White Heruka or male Seven Syllable deity, who can Reverse White Vajrayogini, or vice-versa.

    So that white sparking thing is, I think, pretty clearly the peaceful path.

    However it then becomes evident that in "higher tantra", the sought-for color is Luminous Gold, such as Sita or Kamala, or Vairocani, Vasudhara, Locana, is important to Lakshmi and Indra and recommended by Buddha as "completer of wisdom".

    This one is Increase, more related to Lakshmi than Sarasvati, and considerably harder to get.

    Twenty-one Taras on 84000 at least finally refers one to "the Puranas and Atharva Veda" to explain the Fourteen Worlds. Bravo! At least the connection is made. It also explains the traditions; in one of the main commentaries, the system was transmitted from Nagarjuna to Nyen Lotsawa. The page only has Enlglish translation, but, links to some Sanskrit. Buddha specifically calls the song a Dharani. Suryagupta never actually comments the meaning and only talks about forms.





    Quote This is something of a progression that seems to happen over and over again. I have seen it in my shaking as well. The basic stuff is male, as the thing gets more and more heated and powerful, maybe more shakti, it becomes more and more female.
    Yes, it is.

    Fairly, we should reflect on the fact that Buddha did not just "dictate" tantra during his life; there was no one to understand it.

    Over a few centuries, people must have become quite versed in Sutras if they were finessing the differences between Anagamins and Arhats in the large versions. But yet something relatively simplistic like Vinasekha Tantra was over most peoples' heads and functioned at the level of dynasty craft.

    Khenpo Tsultrim Rinpoche perhaps has an effective modern comparison:


    "In view of the faculty and qualifications of most people, we don’t think there is a need to understand the actual practice of the completion stage with marks for the time being. The reason being that this practice entails great effort, and is very complex and difficult for lay people who are busy and easily distracted. However, we can take up the completion stage practice without marks, which is part of Dzogchen and Mahamudra, after completing the preliminaries."


    So in other words, this, too, is going to emphasize Yoga Tantra and Generation Stage, as opposed to handing out Vajrabhairava, Cinnamasta, etc., Completion Stage rituals as if anyone could get them to work. But even this is considerable more than in Vinasikha.

    "Mahayoga is mainly about the generation stage, its object more outwardly directed; hence there are many discussions on visualization, mantra recitation, offering, etc. in its contents. Anuyoga is primarily about the completion stage, its object the vajra body which is inwardly focused; hence fewer practices about visualization and mantra recitation are included, its main purpose being to control the channels, winds, and essences of the body. It is the view of Anuyoga that practices of visualization, mudra, mantra recitation, offering, etc. as dictated in Mahayoga are all unnecessary detours. Atiyoga talks about the completion stage without marks, which holds that all things, be they external or internal, are manifestations of the mind. As long as the nature of mind is realized, none of the external or internal practices is needed, as they are all deviations. Therefore, the object of Atiyoga is neither the external practices of visualization, mantra recitation, making offering, etc. nor the practice of channels, winds, and essences of the vajra body, but the luminous nature of mind.

    However, people have very different cognitive capabilities, so Dzogchen and the completion stage with marks may not be appropriate for everyone. A person who is suited to practicing the generation stage should start with Mahayoga and gradually move on to the next phase. From this standpoint, no practice is a deviation; any practice that truly matches the practitioner’s capacity can be an expedient path to realization."

    If we should start with Maha Yoga, Dakini Jala is among if not the first.


    He says a bit about Vajra Body and the difference of Karmic and Wisdom Winds. He says ancient momentum may drift us onto the First Bhumi or into Nidra Yoga:

    "...when the accumulation of merit has grown to a certain level, namely, when one has attained the state of the first ground bodhisattva. Due to the accumulation of merit through eons, the winds will enter the central channel, attaining realization of emptiness even if a person has never undertaken the practice of winds, channels, and essences; second, when one goes into deep sleep. This is where a trained practitioner can perceive luminosity in the dream state while the inexperienced cannot..."

    "In fact, the process from the waking state to sleep and to dream again is almost the same as that from death to the unconscious state and to the bardo. If one cannot perceive luminosity while dreaming, one cannot recognize ground luminosity, peaceful and wrathful deities in death either."



    "...if mental activities do not stop, they will conceal the nature of mind, and prevent us from ever seeing its true reality. Only when the sixth consciousness or all eight consciousnesses stop operating completely can there be a chance to truly see the nature of mind.

    Such is the principle, but sutra does not have this kind of practice. Although there are methods in tantra, they are not without some risks. That is, if the winds enter not the central channel of the dharmata but the central channel of abiding (life channel), it will cause the practitioner to go mad. Whereas if the winds enter the central channel of the dharmata, not only will this problem not arise, it will also “activate” the essences of the five elements in this channel, resulting in the manifestation of myriad pure realms.

    The main obstacle that prevents us from seeing any pure realms now is the existence of consciousness (not just the sixth consciousness but all eight consciousnesses)."



    "There is no such practice of sambhogakaya in sutra. The view of sutra is the accumulation of wisdom can result in dharmakaya and the accrual of merit can produce sambhogakaya. But the exact method to obtain these results is rather abstract. Tantra however is very specific in its methodology, with corresponding practices for the purification of body and mind included."


    Now as we have seen, HPB said that Yajnawalkya was the direct pre-cursor of her Yogacara Buddhist system. And then we saw he claimed that Sangiti was the most sublime practice. So again if we place Namasangiti Manjushri in this context, it adds up, and we can find almost the exact same thing from a short Lama Yeshe Gradual Completion Stage:

    "When Lama Tsongkhapa went to Jonang Monastery for puja and the monks recited the four rounds of emptiness: “Form is emptiness, emptiness is form, etc,” Lama Tsongkhapa completely fell into concentration. Later, he asked Manjrushri about this experience. Manjrushri said it is neither the Madhyamaka or Cittamatrin view. Manjrushri advised Lama Tsongkhapa to collect merit and purify defilements. If you attain this, your concentration will develop."

    That is the major point to Shentong or Parasunya, it does not rely on Emptiness-Only or Mind-Only as presented in most of the known schools, but, accepts each, provisionally, on the way to its own Center Between Extremes or Catuskoti.



    and it is possible to physiologically get half of Suksma Yoga without necessarily it being Buddhist samadhi:

    "when the four joys arise merely "due to the power of the chakras and drops" and not due to meditation, this cannot be posited as a completion stage experience in the mindstream of a completion stage practitioner. "

    1400s Guge Gauri Tara of verse two, often held by Sarasvati or Cunda:






    Wrathful Bhrkuti:






    Raganisudana or Cutter of Attachment:


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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    It is also green as is her skin.

    The blade of the halberd is the non-green thing, it is golden. She cuts very precisely, she was making the point that unless I increased my 'physical' strength, which in familiar terms would be my ability to gather my prana, I was just flailing uselessly.
    Continuing to reprimand Bhattacharya, color is not quite definitive.

    Green, per se, is not automatically Karma Family, the second choice for Green Tara is in Lotus Family. She may be in others, but, at the very least, we know there is traffic between Red and Green, such as Tarodbhava Kurukulla. Usually Lotus Family would "become known" first, but, this is not "at first", you have enough signs to ascertain, what sounds like, to me, at least, Activity of Dakinis liberated by Activity = Karma Family.

    That does not answer what kind of Tara it really is. If you can recognize Pandara and Kurukulla, then, I would imagine, the rest of Lotus Family should be accessible. And so if you get appearances of both of these Families, it is not really possible to distinguish Green Tara one way or the other.

    The accoutrements and Greek Flavor sound more like Hariti.

    A Golden Weapon is significant and she has referred you to the Crescent of Inverted Stupa: gathering and concentration of Prana. I understand how it is "physical strength". It is like why the Inverted Prism represents the physical world with the highest color, violet, because it is only interested in the highest vibrations of it.

    Again, if we go back through the "Semi-Completion Stage" material above, it is obviously possible to go past the Crescent and actually way deep into the Yoga without actually having all of its power or grace. And so this is a bit like--you have identified its function, nevertheless, you want a Perfect Crescent.

    That is why I metaphorically kick myself in the face every few minutes. I know exactly what they mean by experiencing some of the Dhyanas and Joys and yet not having done it right, have to restart.

    Hariti was oath-bound by Buddha and usually has a reformed appearance:






    But her husband is Panchasikha the Yaksa general we recently mentioned, and, she can still potentially obtain weapons, even if it is "him":





    Or sometimes squats slightly:











    With grain:







    Standing:






    With Jambhala:






    She is considered Gandharan, sometimes called Skarah Devi. Simply the first thing that comes to mind when a Toga is involved.

    Just a quick bonus, they have "linked" but not "titled" Mamaki:





    In the DDV mandala, Panchasikha is an Asura, King of Gandharvas, and Hariti is the Queen of Yakshas such as Vaisravana. In Kalachakra, it is "Hariti and all Siddhis". That also has its own set of Iccha goddessess--all Desires arise from the Yoginis. It does not say much about them, other than one is like Tara, like Sparsavajra, like Camunda, and so on. Most of their names are inscrutable. However it does have a Mrtyuvacana Iccha. There are thirty-seven of these, and Bhattacharya calls it the strangest process of deification of them all.



    Quote I don't have a form to have pores when this is happening.
    No, but it is all in the scope of Kurukulla. Eventually it is just freely flowing through the physical body and then Ekajati is Buddha Sweat.



    Quote The fact that liquid is not yet formless is a useful thing, I do understand why things are categorized as "water" when they are liquid, and I do understand "Watery Fire". But that is where it sort of ends, it is not like a nice warm sea. It is much more viscous, it reifies bliss if that makes sense, and is inherently sexual as a fluid, as well as being inherently female in a shakti is female kind of way. I am not bathed in it, what is left of my form when it touches it is dissolved into it. The mind becomes pretty much just a luminous mass, and is not pointed in the geometrical sense, there is no location of it or center. There is no need to be, since thought as it usually is is not there. But counterfactually for such a feeling of viscous sexual secretions, it is very fast, one can literally use it to travel anywhere in an instant, or to go into and out of dreams, shaking, or any other state.
    Mental liquid as a Maha Bhut is a veil on the Great Deep which is Formless = Buddhic Plane.

    That is why I cannot say much about Varuna and would never use him in the orthodox way.

    His wife however reproduces herself and comes to us and she is the primordial form of Sesha.

    She does not come to us, like, The "Nitya" or type of eternal default existence, but, she is evocable by Fire by Friction.

    Varuni begets the more powerful Vairocani, in whose body, you, Heruka, melt. So if the preliminary Maha Yoga is Dakini Jala, we are porting its character here. It is similar to Bhairava.

    I figured it was more than what I described as "sea".

    It is like going splack in Vairocani or is a perception of the Aura or Egg or Hiranyagarbha, or a meta-form of Ratna Dakini. Sounds Yellow to me or indicative of its properties. Somewhere in the intersection of Dream Yoga and Mayavi Rupa.

    I would want some white moon-ish quality to support it.

    Since Kurukulla has that, and, she grants these siddhis, it continues to sound to me like you are deeper in her realm than anything else I can think of.


    I am not sure what realm I am in. Well, it involves a Karuna that should be normal and easy, except it can't be performed. I am told by the person who admits to Suffering that it is a reserved right and that cocooning in a ball of depression is better than talking or the slightest change, like an Addiction to Suffering itself. Perhaps because that is easy.

    So, from experience, I can...help anyone...but, here, it does not seem to be an option yet. I don't understand that. The only case I have known of it before was suicide. At the very least, I am trying to prevent that. Believe it to be the same Suicide Demon, with hosts of Dons and Mamos.

    This is at a dysfunctional stage, compared to what I would call normal adulthood in the most basic English terms known to anyone.

    When someone has a point, I can respect it, but I do not get the pointlessness of asserting uninhibited misery.


    Sangiti as a spiritual practice is Sam + Gai, the root for Gayatri and Gita and so on.

    Sangha is not Sam + gha, it is sam + han "to kill", and in this sense sam means "before", so, "community" is what you have "before killing each other".

    In the original sense, it did not mean all Buddhists, it meant the ordained and the lay persons who had achieved Stream Entry or Srotapanna. In more esoteric meanings, it is only the Historical Buddhas, or the Boddhisattvas.

    In Prajnaparamita, Assemblies are graded as:

    There are four types of saṃgha:

    the assembly having shame (hrīmat),
    the shameless saṃgha (āhrīkya),
    the assembly of dumb sheep (eḍamūka),
    the true saṃgha (bhūta).

    That looks weird since Bhuta is usually a goblin or ghost, but:

    Bhūta (भूत).—p. p. [bhū-kta]

    1) Become, being, existing.

    2) Produced, formed.

    3) Actually being, really happened, true

    So it also has meaning as "Element" or even "living being".

    "Mahabhut" almost exclusively means the Five Elements, although, in many Buddhist sadhanas, it means the Four Form Elements, such as the Four Dakinis.

    Akash is never exactly Form. Kama Rupa may be considered part of Form, but not Akash. Even though it has a physical counterpart, it is undifferentiated, homogeneous.
    Last edited by shaberon; 11th March 2021 at 06:04.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote You should be able to slide or pull off any frets to get a changing pitch. I have played fretless a few times, and, I suppose, it is better/stronger at the effect. The limitation of "bending" is that it can only raise, not lower, unless you do a pre-bend, I could pre-bend a half step and bend up until the string breaks, or, relax, but just down to the actual tone, not lower.
    Of course you can, but having played cello before I played guitar, there isn't really a sound you can make that is totally comparable. Of course there is always bottleneck or pedal steel.
    Quote However it then becomes evident that in "higher tantra", the sought-for color is Luminous Gold, such as Sita or Kamala, or Vairocani, Vasudhara, Locana, is important to Lakshmi and Indra and recommended by Buddha as "completer of wisdom".
    I was aware of Locana having this color, she does in my shaking.
    Quote However, people have very different cognitive capabilities, so Dzogchen and the completion stage with marks may not be appropriate for everyone. A person who is suited to practicing the generation stage should start with Mahayoga and gradually move on to the next phase. From this standpoint, no practice is a deviation; any practice that truly matches the practitioner’s capacity can be an expedient path to realization."
    I was also aware of this progression, it's very old, it is in the Avatamsaka, for instance, which goes further and individuates all paths whatsoever in some passages.
    Quote Such is the principle, but sutra does not have this kind of practice. Although there are methods in tantra, they are not without some risks. That is, if the winds enter not the central channel of the dharmata but the central channel of abiding (life channel), it will cause the practitioner to go mad. Whereas if the winds enter the central channel of the dharmata, not only will this problem not arise, it will also “activate” the essences of the five elements in this channel, resulting in the manifestation of myriad pure realms.
    This is the constant problem when doing something like my shaking. I have to have the ultimate trust in the Dakinis, because the correspondences to the literature -- sutra, tantra, or otherwise, are slow and difficult to piece together except for some occasional runs of good fortune. The solution in shaking/Dakini world is that when I am uncomfortable with something, they do something that in my notes are called operations (because the visual of the first one was of watching them operate on me like in a hospital operation). It allows things to proceed without fear of madness or otherwise, but adds an attachment that will have to be dealt with later on.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Green, per se, is not automatically Karma Family, the second choice for Green Tara is in Lotus Family. She may be in others, but, at the very least, we know there is traffic between Red and Green, such as Tarodbhava Kurukulla. Usually Lotus Family would "become known" first, but, this is not "at first", you have enough signs to ascertain, what sounds like, to me, at least, Activity of Dakinis liberated by Activity = Karma Family.
    My understanding, her anomalous appearance notwithstanding, that she was tagged Samaya Tara and a Dakini in this case because of a role among the wisdom Dakinis in the Bardo Thodol.

    It's interesting that there is a depiction of Hariti squatting. In my notes I had just gone ahead and labeled the squatting person I personified on several occasions as Lajjia Gauri, with out prejudice as to exactly who or what the woman with that name is. The identification or personification was not like that of the Dakinis, however, because I was her throughout a particular vision sequence, and that doesn't happen when the Dakinis identify. It was probably more like an emanation of me, in the form of her.

    Quote No, but it is all in the scope of Kurukulla. Eventually it is just freely flowing through the physical body and then Ekajati is Buddha Sweat.
    I suppose this works, she is running the whole training on entering and exiting dream states and such, and the liquid is that.

    Quote I figured it was more than what I described as "sea".

    It is like going splack in Vairocani or is a perception of the Aura or Egg or Hiranyagarbha, or a meta-form of Ratna Dakini. Sounds Yellow to me or indicative of its properties. Somewhere in the intersection of Dream Yoga and Mayavi Rupa.

    I would want some white moon-ish quality to support it.

    Since Kurukulla has that, and, she grants these siddhis, it continues to sound to me like you are deeper in her realm than anything else I can think of.
    Hopefully that means I will eventually get the whole lucidity thing figured out at some point. The mixing in of dreaming makes it harder to get all the details right in my notes, because I have never been able to do a good job of remembering details about dreams. The transition state is this liquid, I'm getting better at entering and exiting it, but the dreams are still completely uncontrolled, even if I am remembering them a little more and able to go in and out of them without disturbing the timeline inside.

    On the other, I'm not sure I would get very close to anything circling the drain close to suicide, that's kind of a bright line for me and I am constrained by law anyway to call in the pros. I'm one of the people in my state with a duty to report.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    Of course you can, but having played cello before I played guitar, there isn't really a sound you can make that is totally comparable. Of course there is always bottleneck or pedal steel.
    I have a cello right here beside me.

    No training. I got it out one time and found it rather easy to crank out symphony-quality music. I can't really read the stuff and could probably never play an actual piece. Chord charts are different, code-like and workable. You could easily pluck a chord on a cello, but, I doubt they bow properly.

    I received a chord the other day during Manasa Japa. Doing a mantra mentally did not specify the timbre, and I wound up hearing myself whispering, myself chanting, and some better singer doing it well, at the same time.


    Quote I was aware of Locana having this color, she does in my shaking.
    Then you must be closer to her standard tantric role than to her individual follower practice against pain, which is white.

    I can easily see lemon yellow, I see it constantly, but not gold or luminous gold.

    I cannot really find anything on Locana individually in Sadhanamala. She "looks" common simply because her name is first in saying "Locanadi", i. e. "Locana and others", meaning the set of Prajnas, such as with Vajra Tara, who seems to be getting Heruka to Vajrasurya initiation through Drum Sound:

    iti paṭhadbhir buddhair herukarūpaiḥ pañcāmṛtamṛtapañcatathāgatātmakaiḥ
    kalaśaiḥ pañcabhir abhiṣicyate / abhiṣicyamāne puṣpavṛṣṭir
    bhavati, dundubhiśabdaścocchalati, kuṅkumavṛṣṭir bhavati,
    rūpavajrādibhiḥ pūjyate, vajragītyā locanādibhiḥ sūyate,
    abhiṣicyamāne mūrdhini vajrasūrya utpadyate /

    And so "to Rupa Vajra and others, you do Puja", but, then, you have what looks like Vajra Song of Locana and others, you do "Suya":

    Sūya (सूय).—Extraction of the Soma juice; libation; sacrifice

    Suyata could also mean "bound", but, here, Heruka is tring to do something with a Kalasa of Five Nectars, which likely are sacrificed with song to Locana and others.

    Although they have limited use other than as "the Prajnas", they also have a set of Bodhisattvas or something similar, which make them all the Ten Vilasinis according to Virupa; and these are the Mahabhuts.

    That one has Black Mamaki in the south, most likely Vajra Family, meaning this one is centered on Ratna Family and Grey Padmajalini.

    Sabara's version is similar but adds an extra "highly erotic vidyAdharI. She has 3 heads and carries a kapAla from which she drinks wine and a khaTvA~Nga. She is brilliant red in color and clothed in only a garland of nAgakesha flowers and bears long thick flowing untied tresses, with her youthful body excited with erotic pleasure. Her secret mantra is similar to that of Chinnamasta."

    Well, vidyadhari is not really a personal name so much as a status, and so here we have someone at the very least, Varuni- and Cinnamasta-esque.

    The rite takes place residing on the pinnacle of the beautiful mountain of chittavishrAma.

    He Dances, She Shakes is a thesis on Vilasini which starts off by saying the women are shaking by possession like in the Manasa video, or, perhaps like in the technique of Shaking.

    "While participants of both genders are expected to transfonn their experience of samarasa into
    samavesa by the deity, the degree and expression vary based on their capacity to submit to the
    penetration of the deity. This receptive capacity is understood in India as a unique power
    possessed intrinsically only by women, termed sakti, but which could be transferred to men
    during sexual intercourse. ~ Men derive their sakti from sexual intercourse with women,
    (whether as their ritual mudra or their wife) because all women embody this power."

    "...a woman of the tantric lineage cannot undergo possession
    (literally “shaking,” khaye) in the company of uninitiated men, or it will be impossible to end the
    possession."

    That, potentially, is why Guhyajnana's mantra says Dhuma Khaye. It is probably a Newari word.

    Abhinavagupta distinguishes between groos shaking (ghurni) and subtle trembling (kampa).

    In reference to Jnana Mudra, it turns out that Tibetans has a standarda phrase for "central channel", but also:

    also named the ku ‘dar ma “all shaking,” which Kongsprul Blogrosmtha‘yas (1813-1899) explains is because of the shaking
    movement of the bodhicittas within the channel, which gives rise to innate bliss. Although the jnana mudra may be a visualization, the employment of this seal is still tied to the somatic experience of the inner body, the choreographed movement of the bodhicittas that leads to shaking.


    After being shown Cakrasamvara’s mandala they consume the tantric fivefold nectar ( pancamrta ) which is likely
    to cause many of the women candidates to shake “possessed by the goddess”.

    As you see, in these rituals, shaking is purely for women. The underlying ethos is that men dance, having more restraint or control of their own bodies, whereas women are able to lose it and give it up and become more possessed by the shakti. She then is able to "send out" shakti in the opposite way of how sexually a male is able to send something to her.

    This must be slightly different than the shaking you do, because it is possession by the Yidam specifically.

    Quote This is the constant problem when doing something like my shaking. I have to have the ultimate trust in the Dakinis, because the correspondences to the literature -- sutra, tantra, or otherwise, are slow and difficult to piece together except for some occasional runs of good fortune. The solution in shaking/Dakini world is that when I am uncomfortable with something, they do something that in my notes are called operations (because the visual of the first one was of watching them operate on me like in a hospital operation). It allows things to proceed without fear of madness or otherwise, but adds an attachment that will have to be dealt with later on.
    We need lots of heals/repair/upgrades. I have often vaguely felt that someone was practicing Ayurveda over me. I don't know if it was wishful thinking or something that was actually happening. Not sensitive enough.

    I mean, we can chide ourselves and say something like "mom, some day I will tie my own shoes", but for now, it is good not to be tripping over the laces.

    Given the situation that one's form is malleable or removable, and that mortal mind as such can be discarded, leading to states which in some cases are...a bit forlorn...what is the type of thing that causes revulsion or intimidation?

    Obstacles/traps? Or something far more sinister?

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    My understanding, her anomalous appearance notwithstanding, that she was tagged Samaya Tara and a Dakini in this case because of a role among the wisdom Dakinis in the Bardo Thodol.
    The Zhitro or Hundred Deities of Bardo Thodol are basically the same in all the schools; Six Family Wheel in Peaceful and Wrathful modes.

    That is why death is sometimes called "breaking or bursting the hundred", since, even to an untrained person, the deities start happening.

    Considering it is a Body Mandala like Chakrasamvara or any other:

    "we're not making distinctions among the various inner tantras, nor between the creation and completion stages, but joining them all together. This is the union of rigpa and emptiness, the oneness of birth, death, and life experiences. There is no basis for discriminating because all are aspects of one true nature. Nothing is rejected or exclusively accepted. This teaching is known as the one that unifies everything into a single state."

    And so there, it is Samaya Tara, Consort of Amoghasiddhi.

    Zhitro is a template to which, for example, if we follow the Dakini Jala example, then we are just going to change two of the Gauris in that list. Or actually just one. Smasani is the only thing that this version does differently. Hevajra Tantra makes two changes, including Dombini.

    In the Zhitro, their forms are in ultimate nightmare mode, in most of the other tantras they are like regular wrathfuls, but in Dakini Jala, they are actresses or moods, which gets my attention a lot more.

    The point of them is not how revolting they may be and that they jump out at dead people--they are the Sampattis or tantric samadhis so intense that environmental disturbances no longer penetrate your senses. I think they may be the most relevant or pressing topic or type of deity.

    Dakini Jala is nothing other than this Zhitro in a slightly different version, such as having a whole court for each Dhyani Buddha, thereby giving you a rite or process for the particular wisdom.

    It is a Body Mandala, it will explode when you die, and none of the systems are literally true, i. e. you are not going to automatically see a Tiger Face at such-and-such a time--but if you practice this system, you will. If you make a Shiva version, you are going to get that, and so on. There is a type of underlying pattern to the process, but they all have different trim. Like our bodies are all "human shaped" but not identical.

    At certain points after death, you will be confronted with the Air Element, or a Sound Object, and so on, which will assume characteristics according to your karma. Often, this means nightmares, but if I train in Yoga, something a little different is possible.

    Samaya Tara is Air Element, or, rather, the Wisdom obtainable by realizing the Emptiness of Air Element, its non-difference to anything else. To the novice, air is the body's surface perceiving the outer environment, but in meditation, we perceive it as restrained Prana.

    In that case, it makes sense that she made a show poignantly about this very thing.


    Quote The identification or personification was not like that of the Dakinis, however, because I was her throughout a particular vision sequence, and that doesn't happen when the Dakinis identify. It was probably more like an emanation of me, in the form of her.
    In other words what we call self-generation?



    Quote I suppose this works, she is running the whole training on entering and exiting dream states and such, and the liquid is that.
    Kurukulla sounds pretty close to a Yidam to you. Strange, right? "Ordinary love goddess", but, then, as in love of Dharma, there is a lot she can do.

    Quote I'm not sure I would get very close to anything circling the drain close to suicide, that's kind of a bright line for me and I am constrained by law anyway to call in the pros. I'm one of the people in my state with a duty to report.

    I don't know if I am exaggerating or not.

    There are a lot of people who talk about it, who make "failed attempts", which are considered pleas for help.

    The serious person does not put on a show and just gets rid of themselves.

    That may not be what is happening here...probably not...but it is in the drain territory. Because I believe in demons and ghosts and such, I think that is what is involved. Dealing with it is not optional. I have made self-adjustments in order to do so, but, have gotten beached in the dry sands of "nothing". At least in terms of conventional speech. The response is the Four Noble Truths. But the stone wall I have hit is that suffering is preferable to talking or doing anything about it. I do not understand why someone would act that way which sounds like addiction.


    I have been considering looking for new thangkas, such as Handmade Expo has Newari or Beri styles of Cinnamasta, Manjushri making Kathmandu valley, etc., that are pretty good at showing esoteric subjects in a way to familiarize them.

    In talking about Annapurna in a way that may be unusual if not unheard of within Buddhist practice generally--and otherwise may seem predictable, exoteric, and non-tantric at all--this is what they have for her, with no information, but at the very least, holding a Buddhist Bell and Dorje:









    She has a Cup made of Three Skulls, and there is hardly anything that could better match the main tantric process of Agni Kunda or Triangle of Inverted Stupa using Varuni and Secret Skull mantra process.
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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote I have a cello right here beside me.

    No training. I got it out one time and found it rather easy to crank out symphony-quality music. I can't really read the stuff and could probably never play an actual piece. Chord charts are different, code-like and workable. You could easily pluck a chord on a cello, but, I doubt they bow properly.
    Mine suffered a fatal change in humidity once when I moved, I was pretty stunned at how much it would cost to replace it, and haven't done so, so far.

    Yes, you can do chords with a bow, they're called double stops, and are done two strings at a time.

    Quote Sabara's version is similar but adds an extra "highly erotic vidyAdharI. She has 3 heads and carries a kapAla from which she drinks wine and a khaTvA~Nga. She is brilliant red in color and clothed in only a garland of nAgakesha flowers and bears long thick flowing untied tresses, with her youthful body excited with erotic pleasure. Her secret mantra is similar to that of Chinnamasta."

    Well, vidyadhari is not really a personal name so much as a status, and so here we have someone at the very least, Varuni- and Cinnamasta-esque.
    A holder or embodiment of knowledge is a highly erotic youthful body? This sounds like an embodiment of shakti as knowledge, which seems to go with the rest of the description of the Ten Vilasinis you referenced. Or maybe I'm just reflecting having to get used to unfolding powers derived from manipulating dreaming being embodied as female sexual fluids.

    Quote After being shown Cakrasamvara’s mandala they consume the tantric fivefold nectar ( pancamrta ) which is likely to cause many of the women candidates to shake “possessed by the goddess”.

    As you see, in these rituals, shaking is purely for women. The underlying ethos is that men dance, having more restraint or control of their own bodies, whereas women are able to lose it and give it up and become more possessed by the shakti. She then is able to "send out" shakti in the opposite way of how sexually a male is able to send something to her.

    This must be slightly different than the shaking you do, because it is possession by the Yidam specifically.
    Not so sure. This does not sound particularly different in 'feel'. Its goals and implementation are different, but that is not the same as being different - a point that I'm not sure I can argue logically but find easy to understand because I shake. The thesis is a study done from the outside of tantric ritual sex. But I don't think anyone from there (I have asked about such things) would say what the woman in the video is doing is intrinsically different than what Ramakrishna did on the floor of his temple.

    There is also a block to me doing full possession that was requested (see somewhere below).


    Quote Given the situation that one's form is malleable or removable, and that mortal mind as such can be discarded, leading to states which in some cases are...a bit forlorn...what is the type of thing that causes revulsion or intimidation?

    Obstacles/traps? Or something far more sinister?
    So I guess this is 'somewhere below', I hadn't realized somewhere above that the quote and your response was so close at hand.

    What obstacles/traps or something far more sinister? There have been three 'operations'. The first one, which was the one that garnered the name 'operation' because it looked while it was going on like a surgical suite, was to install a block against total possession, because I was uncomfortable with it, and they wanted to move things along. I was uncomfortable with it because I had, at that point, no idea what was happening to me with the shaking and the Dakinis who had at that point just showed up. So I was scared about being inhabited -- also because I was scared at that point that I had done something mortally wrong with respect to these people by self-arising as Heruka Chakrasamvara and Vajrayogini, because I did it without being aware that one was supposed to be initiated before doing so. So they installed a block, so that I am still aware of myself when they identify.

    The other two operations were because of me being scared of losing myself forever in what is described in my notes as being "completely in clear body", which is a state of going into my clear body such that I have no 'muscle memory' of my physical body and therefore no clear path to returning again. So they installed links in my physical body to my clear body that I would be able to use for that purpose. I thought they were way cool because I had these extra nerve endings in my body which I thought was all yoga-siddhi extra powers and such and installed one myself (the second of these two operations) which is when I was told that they were actually attachments that would later become obstacles in the path, and that I should try to do with as few of them as possible.

    So actually, the reason I don't get fully possessed is because I'm blocked from it until I do something to remove the block. As for the woman only thing, I don't think it applies, as I don't think it applied to Ramakrishna, because of having a clear body that is female, instead of (perhaps) one that is a same person extension of me. AFAIK, so do all shamans in all cultures -- have an opposite sex or very different inner body or ability to be inhabited by one. So I am less worried about it than I was when the operation happened, if that makes any sense. But I'm not sure when they are going to teach me or want me to end those attachments.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote At certain points after death, you will be confronted with the Air Element, or a Sound Object, and so on, which will assume characteristics according to your karma. Often, this means nightmares, but if I train in Yoga, something a little different is possible.

    Samaya Tara is Air Element, or, rather, the Wisdom obtainable by realizing the Emptiness of Air Element, its non-difference to anything else. To the novice, air is the body's surface perceiving the outer environment, but in meditation, we perceive it as restrained Prana.
    So in terms of function she is accurate but in terms of appearance idiosyncratic to me maybe. That sounds about right, the purpose is to teach/train.


    Quote
    Quote The identification or personification was not like that of the Dakinis, however, because I was her throughout a particular vision sequence, and that doesn't happen when the Dakinis identify. It was probably more like an emanation of me, in the form of her.
    In other words what we call self-generation?
    I'm not sure, but self-generation I understood to be like when I did that visualization of Heruka Chakrasamvara and Vajrayogini -- something willful at least at the start.

    I told you before about flitting, and for flitting I have almost always been a kind of silvery-bodied dakini figure. This was what in my notes is designated as "Act!" complete with quotes, which makes a really inconvenient label because of containing three punctuation marks. It's like flitting gone long, and the Lajjia Gauri looking embodiment is not actually self-generating Lajjia Gauri and becoming her, it's more like the body needed to get the job done, is the way I have been gradually thinking about it. The powerful transition state is embodied in my shaking as female sexual fluids, I assumed a body that could cover the person in them -- put him in that state I think -- to facilitate whatever he was doing with the UFO or whatever he saw in the sky. I'm not a deity so I don't actually know what the purpose was, but that sounds plausible.

    Quote There are a lot of people who talk about it, who make "failed attempts", which are considered pleas for help.

    The serious person does not put on a show and just gets rid of themselves.
    Perhaps, but I also had a friend whose progression was from the first sentence to the second in far less time than anyone probably thought was possible.

    Quote She has a Cup made of Three Skulls, and there is hardly anything that could better match the main tantric process of Agni Kunda or Triangle of Inverted Stupa using Varuni and Secret Skull mantra process.
    This is interesting, is she sitting on a throne of snakes?

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Please stop this madness!

    You are not entitled to chew up valuable peices of my life, nor this forum that I fight for.
    There is no room for exploits in a matter that you do.We all know you are using this forum to comunicate with each other.

    ofcourse you will not explain your code words to us as you use this forum , but you laugh, reading this now.
    I have to say to you Old student, and to to you Shaberon go find another place to comunicate with each other.

    You are not welcome in this forum, in my opinion,go do your crypto communication somewhere else!

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    Yes, you can do chords with a bow, they're called double stops, and are done two strings at a time.
    Not a chord. Has to have three different notes; that is why a three-string power chord on a guitar is not a chord because it uses an octave/same note.

    Yes, bowing two notes is possible--is called an "interval".

    Quote A holder or embodiment of knowledge is a highly erotic youthful body? This sounds like an embodiment of shakti as knowledge, which seems to go with the rest of the description of the Ten Vilasinis you referenced. Or maybe I'm just reflecting having to get used to unfolding powers derived from manipulating dreaming being embodied as female sexual fluids.
    Lol, yes, you are getting used to that manipulation of dreaming...that is a pretty special place.

    A Vidyadhari or Vidyadhara is more or less a Sage in terms of mantra, and so like in the Nepalese manuscript, the title "vidyadhari" applies to all the Vajrayoginis, very similar to Mahavidya. Of course, most of the Vajrayoginis are supposed to be good-looking. And so the Vilasini sadhana appears, to me, to be saying a non-specific Vajrayogini is involved. I believe the original is on the Sanskrit Buddhist site, but, it wasn't working when I checked yesterday.

    Quote Its goals and implementation are different, but that is not the same as being different - a point that I'm not sure I can argue logically but find easy to understand because I shake.
    That is more or less what I meant. Must be about the same technique/experience, but, it is strictly about total possession by Vajravarahi. The Chohans use the Four Kings, or, rather, Five, since the chief Pehar Gyalpo is not even mentioned with the standard group. These are not Yidams, are Worldly Beings. The only difference between this and necromancy is that Buddhism uses oath-bound entities. And that is its provenance or domain, having bound them to begin with.

    So then you are aware you have blocked Avesa, which is Ghanta or the Fourth Activity.

    You have the first two, Hook and Noose, practically in your pocket.

    It again sounds to me like you are mainly dealing with Chain, or developing it. This is still a nebulous area having something to do with Buddhism discarding the usual Klim magnetic shakti syllable. The one used in this position is Vam. Its deity is Vajrashrnkala, who I thought was almost a total loss until we found her in STTS or one of the main root tantras. Something is inverse about this, since, by association, Kurukulla should almost certainly have or be Chain, but she never is/does.

    I don't blame you, I never have asked or even thought about an Avesa. Nor would I without a great deal of development. Any Fourth Activity for me would be on some lower level as just a Quality or Ray of Wisdom, but--you have been cranked out of the minor league.

    And so the Dance vs. Shaking thing is just a tradition, is the way it is more or less publicly known, is done publicly or at least in a large group. They have the sense that the male "retains his own body" more, since he is usually an owner or boss or other superior. and the woman can relinquish easier since she was raised that her body wasn't hers or was not her sole property. Even if they are Buddhists, they live in an area that is 95% Hindu and the Hindus own the Swayambhu Nath and most of the Vajrayogini temples and just let Buddhists occupy them.

    In the esoteric or personal sense, if we are not part of such a society, the roles may be a little looser. But we also don't quite have Yidams or Istadevatas in the same way. So if I have an interest in Janguli, I don't go around begging for her to take over my apparatus. I spend a long time with the more accessible Manasa and Matangi and will eventually try to make these the "parts" of Janguli. And any Janguli that I do turn to will be in an outer or Yoga view for quite some time.

    Muscle Memory is an experience I am very familiar with and I cannot say if there is a Sanskrit subject that means specifically the same thing.

    It is part of Iccha or Samsara. We should understand the samsaric miserable illusion to be rooted in the most subconscious muscle twitches, the stuff is that deep and that difficult to get rid of. But we are rubbishing the human ego and asking it to be replaced by a Divine one.

    Several people believed that HPB actually died on the field at Metana and had been spiritually replaced by a male yogin. Others had simply seen her as if he were coalescing on her. It is not exactly known, but she, herself, was capable of Transference and possessed Damodar, which he watched from outside his body. She said that ghosts try to do the same thing, but, usually, "they only get an arm or a leg".

    The underlying fact of there being an overall door to the body which can be entered and exited by oneself or others sounds slightly different than Divine Ego which means you are present and aware in your body, but, consciousness is infused by the deity.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    If it's the Sanskrit you are worried about, then here is a dictionary. It's pretty easy to work, except that you need to sometimes break the words into smaller pieces, and you probably need to replace 'c' with 'ch' in most of the words.

    If it's the subject matter, sorry, no can help.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    So in terms of function she is accurate but in terms of appearance idiosyncratic to me maybe. That sounds about right, the purpose is to teach/train.
    Eminently possible.

    If she is Green and directing traffic in the esoteric Karma Family direction--i. e., re-directing Air from Sense of Touch to Prana, then I am pretty sure it is a Karma Tara. It is not exactly Prajna Tara because she would then abide with Amoghasiddhi, which, I would say, is supposed to represent a higher or transcendental plane, Akash--Manas, or Buddhi. So it is some type of Bodhisattva aspect of her. It may be the lowest aspect of her, since the weapon and armor tend to be indicative of worldliness. Perhaps you could call it Karma Dakini if she is energetic. Is she a Citra or Artist--Picture like the two special Karma goddesses in Dakini Jala? No, or not yet, so it sounds. Is it close to Vistara Tara, a Karma Family emanation who reciprocates with Vistara Khasarpana, Sky-going Avalokiteshvara? These certainly are along the lines of expansion--Blossoming--Kusuma.


    Quote I'm not sure, but self-generation I understood to be like when I did that visualization of Heruka Chakrasamvara and Vajrayogini -- something willful at least at the start.
    True. I have done the same thing or similar, have self-visualized as Vajrayogini, probably the only one I have done that way, because books say it is easy and appropriate. For me, it was a really big "lesson stopped", like what you seem to have many small versions of. The whole thing stopped and basically told me to go back and do it right. After that, I no longer had auras or any kind of enhanced senses, became somewhat mundane.

    If self-generation happens spontaneously, on its own, that is a cut above the "with effort" variety that most of us are relegated to.

    So, no, it is not precisely the same technique or experience, but, the transformation of one's form into another being or anything like that, is, perceptually, "self-generation"..there may be a term for "transform", Parinata if is is syllables and symbols, I cannot recall what if it is "person", but I think there is a plain verb for it.

    It was a Squatting form, was it a Fat one?



    Quote Perhaps, but I also had a friend whose progression was from the first sentence to the second in far less time than anyone probably thought was possible.
    Yes, it is terrible that we even know anything about this subject, but, Avalokiteshvara told me to keep people from going to hell.

    I cannot really enlighten anyone the way the Bodhisattvas enlighten us, but, I can be a hell fisher all day long.

    Blood for our Skull Cup.

    My field of experience is perhaps too narrow in that I have one experience which was almost exactly like this which ended in the failure of suicide, and the similarities are simply too eerie. And so I may be a bit jumpy in bringing it up. Maybe in the near future if things loosen up any, I can get behind the eight ball and have some straight talk. Right now it's like being silenced.

    H. H. D. L. said he doesn't really understand depressed people, because he never has been. I have. I just don't understand worldlings. When I am depressed I am still a transcendentalist. I work my way out of it. I have helped at least three, maybe twenty-nine people similarly. To me it is very important. Those "seeking shelter" find it with me. I have no secrets but I have everyone else's. I understand misery, but not gloating in it without a clue.


    Quote This is interesting, is she sitting on a throne of snakes?
    Yes, it looks like a Naga Throne, and, over the Bowl, she is doing Prithvi Mudra. She appears to be Harita or Priyangu fruit color, not Syama. Her necklace is half chain, half snake. The Naga seems to have the Sun in its head, and appears to be the source of flame; if Sesha, this radiance is Varuni.

    Most Hindu Annapurnas are very simple, but, Mandalas Life says about this one:

    The Agamas (religious texts) describe the iconography of Annapoorna as a youthful goddess having a red complexion with a face round like full moon, three eyes, high breasts, and four hands.

    Sounds a bit like "Vidyadhari" from the Vilasinis.

    The lower left hand is depicted holding a vessel full of delicious porridge and the right with golden ladle adorned with various kinds of jewels. The other two hands depict Abhaya and Vrata pose.

    She is depicted with wristlet and golden jewelry which rest on the chest. She is seated on a throne with a crest of moon adorning her head.

    Doesn't sound like this thangka.

    Om Annapurne sadapurne Sankara Prana Vallabhe Jana Vaigarya siddhyartham bhiksam Dehi ca Parvati. Mata me Parvatu devi pita devo Mahesvara bandavha siva bhaktasca svadeso bhuvanatryam.

    Her background legend roughly says "the material world is like an illusion", but, it *cannot* be dismissed as "merely being" an illusion.

    The thing is for sale in various places in different formats, but, it turns out that Tibetan Art will print it, and of course they know the person who created it:

    In Kathmandu the temple of Annapurna is located at the intersection of six roads in the old market area of Asan Tole, where shops and street vendors sell spices, grains, cooking oils, fruits and vegetables. Her small triple-roofed temple is probably the most sacred Lakshmi shrine in the Kathmandu valley, with countless devotees coming to worship and make offerings throughout the day. Known as Lachamikalasa (Lakshmi-kalasha), her aniconic shrine takes the form of a natural or 'self-created' stone vase (kalasa) that is covered with embossed silver. On either side of this small temple are the bronze statues of a rotund Newar khyak spirit and a skeleton, representing the extremes of gluttony and hunger, wealth and poverty, life and death. The central image on the temple's upper torana depicts the eight-armed form of Annapurna seated upon a naga-serpent, as she appears here.

    Annapurna is peaceful, youthful, and radiantly white in complexion, with eight arms, three lotus-like eyes, and a sweetly smiling face. Her breast are firm and full, her waist narrow, and she wears lower garments of embroidered and multicoloured silks, heavy golden Newar earrings, bracelets, anklets, an ornate neck choker, and a chained silver medallion. A fiery naga-serpent serves as her sacred thread, and she wears a garland of freshly-severed, blood-dripping, and incredibly life-like asura heads, that are strung together on three delicate golden chains. Her five-skull crown is adorned with radiant jewels, long silver kinkinpa blades, and two victory flags. Half of her hair is bound up into a topknot, while the other half billows freely above her shoulders.

    With her first pair of hands she makes the bindu-kapala-mudra in front of her heart, with her right hand supporting her skull-cup, and her left index finger and thumb touching in the gesture of blessing or granting refuge. With her second pair of right and left hands she makes the boon-granting varada-mudra of supreme generosity, and holds a lotus-topped golden ritual-vase filled with amrita, the nectar of immortal wisdom. With her third pair of hands she holds a golden vajra and a ritual-bell. And with her fourth pair of hands she wields aloft a fiery sword and a shield.

    Annapurna sits in a posture of 'royal-ease' upon the massive coils of a giant naga-serpent, which symbolizes her control of the Eight Great Nagarajas or 'serpent-kings' that can cause drought, epidemics, and famine. This writhing and fiery naga-serpent is crowned by a radiant wish-granting gem and disgorges flames from its fanged and forked-tongued mouth. Behind Annapurna's back is the silver-encased stone kalasha or 'vase of plenty' that embodies the form of this goddess within the shrine of her temple. This fire-shrouded vase rests upon a dark lotus base, which in turn rests upon a pink lotus that arises from a turbulent ocean. The three-tiered roof of the Annapurna Temple appears in the upper left behind her fiery aura, and below this is one of the two gilded bronze lions that serve as guardians in front her temple.

    Skullcup Lakshmi of Kathmandu, they say.

    Her equivalent epithet used in Buddhism is Viswamata, the Kalachakra goddess.

    In Orissa:


    The Gangas earned the fame for building
    a shrine for the goddess Parvati, second in
    magnitude only to the main temple itself, in the
    Lingaraja temple complex at Bhubaneswar. The
    temple was dedicated to Parvati in Her form as
    Annapurna (the giver of food and plenty or the
    goddess of nourishment, the vegetable-bestowing
    and food giving aspect of the Devi representing
    the later power of given plentiful crops). At the
    holy place of Puri, whose presiding deity was
    Jagannath, the emperor Codaganga erected a
    subsidiary shrine for the worship of Laksmi, the
    goddess of wealth considering Her as the consort
    of that great god. This shrine, which in point of
    importance is only next to the main temple, later
    on exceeded in popularity as the Pithesvari
    Vimala, the Sakta Tantric goddess.


    Pitheshvari is also a singular name of Tara.

    So there are competing legends of whether Annapurna is Parvati or Lakshmi. I tend to think of her more as Lakshmi. But for instance, Kolhapur Mahalakshmi is based on Tri-shakti, and just has Annapurna as an outer wall goddess. There are several "Pins" saying Kolhapur Mahalakshmi as Annapurna; it is a picture of her idol with a lot of food. So I don't actually know a scriptural source which could in any way designate Parvati as Lakshmi. It is possibly confused with an older name, Ammapurna. It is also possible that Parvati may be construed as using a murti of Lakshmi. According to an Annapurna Mountain climbing review:

    Annapurna in Sanskrit literally means "full of food" but is normally translated as ‘Goddess of the Harvests’. For Hindu Annapurna is "the universal and timeless kitchen-goddess, the mother who feeds and prevents starvation, a universal fear, which makes Annapurna a universal goddess, associated with the giving of food (wealth). This led her in time to be transformed into Lakshmi, the Goddess of Wealth with the most popular shrine located in Kashi, on the banks of river Ganga.

    Her major temple is where it is, but, her mountain is in Nepal.

    In Swayambhunath,

    Vasundhara Mandir, a temple for incarnations of goddess Lakshmi, Annapurna, called Vasudhara.

    It has an interesting photo which won't hotlink but is worth looking at, six arm black basalt Vasudhara lined with red paint looking fiery.

    She may be in Swayambhu Purana; I cannot tell, it looks like the Sanskrit Buddhist site has launched a phone app, and, in the process, hosed their scripts, making it inoperative. Rough Guide to Nepal shows in its Swayambhunath layout that Vasudhara and Annapurna are "synonymous". Keith Dowman says she is Lakshmi, the consort of Vishnu. So, this attitude is mainly Nepalese.




    In Sadhanamala, Visvamata is right after Mrtyuvacana 112.

    She is mounted on a white serpent, and white (water or net) generated by Ja syllable, or meaning born in water, such as a lotus, thunder, fish, salt, etc.:

    ārūḍhāṃ śvetanāgaṃ sitajalajakarīṃ

    There are no syllables, mantras, etc., she is in white clothes, and says something which I am not sure is locana--eyes, or Prajna Locana:


    Pralabdha (प्रलब्ध).—p. p. Deceived, cheated

    pralabdhāḥ punar amṛtaghaṭair locanādyāḥ prahṛṣṭāḥ /


    Something flows from Nagini to Amara--Deathless, and Twelve Lingas:

    nāginyaścumbayanti tv amarayuvatayo dvādaśāliṅgayanti /

    And the end of her extremely short article is infinite bliss:

    evaṃ sādhyaṃ ca sarvaṃ paramasukhakaraṃ yoginā bhāvanīyam //


    Her evolution in Kalachakra is as the fusion of Prajnaparamita and Vajradhatvishvari--which, in her own terms, Marici is also central to. The thangka more resembles her Yellow Eight Arm Kalachakra form.

    There is no more direct use of Viswamata in Buddhism, just in Kalachakra and Sadhanamala, as far as I am aware, and no one is saying this really means Annapurna, the Homa goddess.

    Perhaps it is that Prajnaparamita becomes Vajradhatvishvari by using Marici *and* Annapurna, Sun and Earth. At least that is how I see it. Raw prana is from the sun, but, in the ground, prana transforms into potatoes, which we store and eat over the winter when the sun usually doesn't feel as nice. So there is terrestrial prana which is a compound of the primary stuff stored in forms.



    According to Yogapedia:

    Annapurna is a very popular deity and holds a special place because food is considered sacred. Hindus believe that when Annapurna blesses the food, it is changed into amrita, a Sanskrit word that means "the nectar of immortality." Without proper nourishment, one lacks physical health and cannot, therefore, achieve spiritual health. Those who cook are seen as providing energy that fuels the spiritual journey.


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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Not a chord. Has to have three different notes; that is why a three-string power chord on a guitar is not a chord because it uses an octave/same note.

    Yes, bowing two notes is possible--is called an "interval".
    What I was talking about is called a double stop. It is done on a down bow, the lower strings are played (as a pair) first, and then the upper strings (as a pair). It is actually a 3 or 4 note chord. It really is called a double stop.

    Quote So then you are aware you have blocked Avesa, which is Ghanta or the Fourth Activity.
    [...]
    I don't blame you, I never have asked or even thought about an Avesa. Nor would I without a great deal of development. Any Fourth Activity for me would be on some lower level as just a Quality or Ray of Wisdom, but--you have been cranked out of the minor league.
    I am not sure I would have the same reaction now, but at the time, I really did not have any idea what I was getting into, and the idea of being 'possessed' seemed more than scary -- as in, who are these people and what are they asking me to do?

    Quote They have the sense that the male "retains his own body" more, since he is usually an owner or boss or other superior. and the woman can relinquish easier since she was raised that her body wasn't hers or was not her sole property.
    At least some of it was not so arcane. He needs to make sure he does not get her pregnant. Niguma supposedly cursed a man who failed to redirect and ejaculated into her, and the man spent years in madness and penury begging her for forgiveness.

    Quote Muscle Memory is an experience I am very familiar with and I cannot say if there is a Sanskrit subject that means specifically the same thing.
    I use that term, I am not sure if it's correct. It is the bodily (that's why I said muscle memory) memory of what one's own body feels like -- the term I used, "completely in my clear body", is intended to mean on the continuum between feeling only my physical body and feeling only my clear body, feeling only my clear body and as if all bodily, all muscle memory, of what my physical body feels like or what it feels like to be it has disappeared. The reason why it is scary is that it feels like I don't know how to go back again, because I can't remember what it is I'm going back to, except intellectually.

    As for why that's a thing -- why one needs to have some recollection like that -- I'm told it is a form of attachment. It's quite possible, probable even, that one can return perfectly well without having had a shred of memory of what to return to. The block for that one was a growing of the nerves in my abdomen, probably a physical change in them. That's why I thought it was so cool, I could feel all these never before felt feelings. But it turns out placating the need to feel like one knows how to return is an attachment and attachments eventually must be overcome. So I traded creating a future obstacle for being able to get around an overwhelming fear in the present.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Is she a Citra or Artist--Picture like the two special Karma goddesses in Dakini Jala? No, or not yet, so it sounds.
    I don't know, she seems to know everything in detail about the area in the deep center of my chest. She has shown me several techniques, they are very detailed and in one case both physical and somewhat striking for the control one can have over what are supposed to be autonomous muscles. It involves opening up and shaking my esophagus all the way to my stomach. I'm not the first who has controlled that (I can't always do it) because sword swallowers must use a similar technique, but it certainly was beyond what I thought was possible when she put me through it the first time.

    Quote The Agamas (religious texts) describe the iconography of Annapoorna as a youthful goddess having a red complexion with a face round like full moon, three eyes, high breasts, and four hands.

    Sounds a bit like "Vidyadhari" from the Vilasinis.

    The lower left hand is depicted holding a vessel full of delicious porridge and the right with golden ladle adorned with various kinds of jewels. The other two hands depict Abhaya and Vrata pose.

    She is depicted with wristlet and golden jewelry which rest on the chest. She is seated on a throne with a crest of moon adorning her head.

    Doesn't sound like this thangka.
    No, it doesn't. This one looks like some of the attributes were done letting the imagination run a bit, not a bad thing but certainly not classical.

    Quote Skullcup Lakshmi of Kathmandu, they say.
    Quote This is interesting, I would have put such a one in the Durga camp.
    The temple was dedicated to Parvati in Her form as Annapurna (the giver of food and plenty or the goddess of nourishment, the vegetable-bestowing and food giving aspect of the Devi representing the later power of given plentiful crops).
    Closer, more Devi Ma like.
    Quote Perhaps it is that Prajnaparamita becomes Vajradhatvishvari by using Marici *and* Annapurna, Sun and Earth. At least that is how I see it. Raw prana is from the sun, but, in the ground, prana transforms into potatoes, which we store and eat over the winter when the sun usually doesn't feel as nice. So there is terrestrial prana which is a compound of the primary stuff stored in forms.
    This at least is all inclusive, and one becoming another is something that happens with some of the Dakinis in my shaking -- Chunda/Prajnaparamita, Ekajati/Nairatmya/somebody blue I never fully identified.

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