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Thread: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote I like this part"śūlākāraṃ lalāṭaṃ tu krūrakarmaratā ca yā "
    Why? Because it's about roasting meat on a spit? Or because it's about the bad karma because of it?

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    kulavidyākṣarāṇi [ ca ] ṣaḍvarṇāni bhavanti hi

    This appears to be saying
    "Wisdom handed down in the family and spelling the six colors present tense therefore."
    Seriously.
    kulavidyaksarani means 'wisdom handed down in the family'
    aksarani means 'spelling'
    sadvarani we've had before, it's 'six colors'
    bhavanti means 'present tense'
    hi means therefore or surely.

    What is this about?

    Kula is usually an accepted translation of Family, such as Kula Deva, etc., Vidya is a type of Mundane Siddhi or Knowledge that lives within mantra.

    I might almost see Aksara Rani or Letter Queen.

    Bhavanti (भवन्ति).—m.

    (-ntiḥ) Time being, the present. E. bhū to be, Unadi aff. jhic .

    --- OR ---

    Bhavantī (भवन्ती).—

    1) A virtuous wife.


    I think it is going to tell me about six letters in six colors which are Family deities, and so for instance the forms of Armor Deities are usually just their syllable, i. e. Candika is a smoky-colored Phat.


    It comes up once more around line Fifteen of Chapter Sixteen:

    kulavidyāṃ kuladevīm |


    There are Krodhas involved and there is Yoginijanah. Frequently sadhanas will use Janma = Birth, but, it is likely that is still the meaning here. However in this spelling it is recognizable also as:


    5) The world beyond Maharloka, the heaven of deified mortals.


    That would be equal to Akashic or Mental plane, whereas Mahar is an alternate name for Kama Loka and then if we read the title Maha Bharata in that sense, that is what it is about, Kama Loka.


    Anyway, Herukabhidhana's commentary then says:

    svamudrā sitavarṇādi varṇo mṛṇālagauratvādi | tābhyāṃ saṃkulāḥ sambaddhāḥ |

    Mrnala probably means Padma, i. e. you open a white lotus and you become Chained to all of the Kulas. Or, white color "di" and other colors--Varno.

    What brings six colors into the "present tense" or bhavanti is:

    kulavidyākṣarāṇi ceti | kulaṃ sādhakastasya vidyāstā evākṣarāṇi vajrāṇi dṛḍhādhimokṣatvād yoginījanāḥ | ete cāvicalitarupā devyo bhavantītibhāvaḥ |

    something along the lines of

    Eva--Aksara--Rani Vajrani Drdha [make stable] Adhimoksa Satva

    Adhi is not the same as Adi; as an adverb, preposition, or prefix to verbs it usually means "up, over, above".

    4) (As first member of Tatpuruṣa compounds) (a) Chief, supreme, principal, presiding

    and yet this is also true:

    1) Mental pain or anguish, agony, anxiety (opp. vyādhi- which is bodily pain)

    And so for example in Gaudiya, they say Kunkuma powder relieved the Gopis' Adhim or sexual anxiety and they became satisfied.

    So we see what Powder of Kumari is doing.

    However, some of our scriptures mutilate the language:

    Adhimokṣa (अधिमोक्ष).—(= Pali °mokkha), = adhimukti, zealous application: Mahāvyutpatti 1929; Dharmasaṃgraha 30

    The devi's form starts with Cavi which I'm guessing is Ca Avi which is perhaps similar to Ava, to appear, be perceptible.

    The next word some of us may like:

    Calita (चलित).—p. p. [cal-kta]

    1) Shaken, moved, stirred agitated.

    2) Gone, departed; एवमुक्त्वा स चलितः (evamuktvā sa calitaḥ)

    3) attained.

    4) known, understood.

    5) Removed, displaced (see cal).

    -tam 1 Shaking, moving.

    2) Going, walking.

    3) A kind of dance; चलितं नाम नाट्यमन्तरेण (calitaṃ nāma nāṭyamantareṇa) M.1.


    So it may mean other things, but, it seems to me, is about her form appearing.

    A mudra is going to explain:

    vakti svagotrajām |

    speech of being born of that same noble family, followed by luminosity that is:

    Prakṛṣṭa (प्रकृष्ट).—p. p.

    1) Drawn forth or out.

    2) Protracted, long, lengthy.

    3) Superior, distinguished, excellent, eminent, exalted.

    4) Chief, principal.

    5) Distracted, disquieted.

    6) Violent, strong, excessive.


    The luminosty is then the Kula Bija.




    The end of the chapter appears to say there are thirteen yoginis of Laksana Cihna (i. e., family emblems), and seven that are the same as the ones from the Laksanapariksa practice given previously.

    The devis in this chapter pertain to Nava Candana--Sandalwood Gandhini--incenses which is why we see the admixture of Nilotpala and Mrnala and so forth.

    They seem to be:

    Hema Raktapita--Saundini (Hayagriva Family)
    Color?--Cakravarmini (Ratnasambhava Family)
    Nila--Suvira (Heruka Family)
    Rakta--Viramati (own)
    Pitasyama--Varahi (Vajra Family)
    Arakta--Mahabala (Tathagata Family)


    It is not plainly written, that is for sure.


    Quote I should work on my onion appreciation. Maybe in the modern world it's about TOR.
    (Tsongkhapa mixing languages is the man from Onion Valley tsong (now written zong) still means 'onion' in standard Mandarin).

    Just because I am almost totally unaffiliated with the Gelug school and believe I may differ on a few points of their philosophy, does not, in any way, detract from my appreciation of some of them.

    One thing we can say about him is that he was one of the few people of the time who had the chance to examine almost all of the tantras, usually meaning by way of initiation and practice.

    So his view is, for his era, pretty comprehensive.

    Alex Wayman relies upon him pretty regularly, and he perhaps is the westerner who really started asking the teachings the right questions...some of it is a bit stray or superfluous but this more honest type of inquiry brought forth some really good work.





    Quote The reason it caught my eye was that the expression was that it "consisted of" the source of all phenomena. As if the substance of the corpse itself, what it was made from was from 'source of all phenomena'.

    Yes, consists of, is composed of, is very much the intent behind most such equivalencies.

    It, I think, is a change from the western phrases such as Neptune, god of the sea, which would instead come out more like Varuna *is* the sea, or, if you wanted to be more specific, Varuni is the sea and Varuna is the state of mental mastery of it.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    lakṣaṇānantaraṃ vaktuṃ saptadaśaṃ paṭalamāha - tato durlabhā ityādi
    These passages seem to be something about the difficulty of saying something? Would that be difficulty with intoning it or what?
    Have to revise our stance here. It is not seventeen entities or elements, it is just Chapter Seventeen, and it only looks weird since only three chapters seem to be called patalamaha.


    What the chapter itself says is difficult is:

    durlabhā yoginīnāṃ tu ḍākinīnāṃ tathaiva ca |

    Tathaiva (तथैव).—ind. So, even so, in the same manner. E. tathā, and eva thus.

    in the manner of five amritas and Armor Deities.

    This is the Cihna Mudra chapter, so, perhaps the six armor deities plus the seven...oddballs...make thirteen Cinha or family deities. Well, Cihna is really the sign/seal/item/symbol etc. which represents a family.

    The weird shuffling of the terms Yogini, Dakini, and Devi comes up here.

    Perhaps that is why "mother" is spelled three ways possibly.

    I am pretty sure they are trying to get at a procession from five nectars to six families to seven jewels in a way that each is increasingly subtle and profound.

    I think the practice is difficult, it is hard to get five nectars, let alone make them do anything. We would not even have Hevajra tantra if someone had not done this for years and given up. just to be chided by Nairatma. From what I have seen, "durlabha" is a fairly typical description of any mandala or wisdom considered to be challenging.


    Overall, it looks like the Seven come from Vajra Family from the dakini named Dakini, which sounds consistent with having Yamini first:

    saugatagoṣṭhīratā saiva vajrakulodbhavā ] |
    ḍākinīnāṃ kulānīha mahāvādīni lakṣayet || 12 ||


    Chapter Eighteen appears to have combined the six colors and the seven laksana--cihnas:

    sarvayoginīvarṇalakṣaṇacihnavidhipaṭalo



    Quote Ah, emerge. That sounds interesting.

    At this point, it says the Seven Jewels are in a mandala. You have twenty-four yoginis, split into Akasa, Bhucari, and Patala, and then the "other twelve" or Cemetery Goddesses.

    There are five ratnas in verse twenty-one, and seven in verse twenty-four, the meaning of it changes totally.

    How would it emerge? Boiling away afflictive emotions and mental confusion to make the "conditions" that manifest the Buddha Path? Minus the details, yes, I think it is about that simple.

    I have never really even studied the symbolism of the seven jewels much, but, let me put it this way, Upeksa is not a word off a page or a wise reminder about "being firm"...it keeps me alive.

    So it is difficult to cobble together those tantric details *and* push it to a point where it has a physiological effect.

    I have experienced the effect, which has led me to believe that the details are important, and although it is "difficult", it is better than the way I did it.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    In the way, I interpret it, it has to do with neither.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Kula is usually an accepted translation of Family, such as Kula Deva, etc., Vidya is a type of Mundane Siddhi or Knowledge that lives within mantra.
    So this part is not controversial, then, it is knowledge or wisdom of the family.
    Quote I might almost see Aksara Rani or Letter Queen.
    I had broken it that way too, until I saw the other, which fits on all letters, अक्षराणि, whereas rani meaning queen is रानी. I went back and looked and it means spelling by way of meaning 'letters' or 'syllables'. Maybe as the latter it fits your meanings better.

    Quote sitavarṇādi varṇo mṛṇālagauratvādi
    white colored color lotus root whitish skinned. I think. not sure.

    Quote Just because I am almost totally unaffiliated with the Gelug school and believe I may differ on a few points of their philosophy, does not, in any way, detract from my appreciation of some of them.

    One thing we can say about him is that he was one of the few people of the time who had the chance to examine almost all of the tantras, usually meaning by way of initiation and practice.
    I wasn't commenting on his wisdom, he was known as the man from Onion Valley because he actually was the man from Tsongkha which is a valley but I'm not sure it really means onion valley. It was a route down from the Tarim basin into Tibet, into Amdo. I've always taken it to mean he had access to far more streams of Buddhist thought growing up than people from a more traditional place.

    Quote Yes, consists of, is composed of, is very much the intent behind most such equivalencies.

    It, I think, is a change from the western phrases such as Neptune, god of the sea, which would instead come out more like Varuna *is* the sea, or, if you wanted to be more specific, Varuni is the sea and Varuna is the state of mental mastery of it.
    Okay.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Have to revise our stance here. It is not seventeen entities or elements, it is just Chapter Seventeen, and it only looks weird since only three chapters seem to be called patalamaha.
    Okay. FYI, ityAdi means 'etcetera.'

    Quote Perhaps that is why "mother" is spelled three ways possibly.
    matr is the root. Other things can be made of it, including just different parts of speech or plurals, or duals.

    Quote I think the practice is difficult, it is hard to get five nectars, let alone make them do anything. We would not even have Hevajra tantra if someone had not done this for years and given up. just to be chided by Nairatma. From what I have seen, "durlabha" is a fairly typical description of any mandala or wisdom considered to be challenging.
    That's what I thought when I worked out that phrase, that it was talking about the thing it was explicating, and that whatever it was (mandala, spell, meditation, visualization) was difficult.

    A for instance out of my shaking: I have a thing that was taught by the Dakinis for getting the better of my breathing problems. One generates a 'drop' of bliss in the lower chest (in the lower part of the sternum thereabouts), then splits it letting half drift down into the abdomen and grow as bliss, and the upper half rises to the throat and becomes nausea. I've told you about it before.

    It is by far the best way to end the breathing problems, and is much harder to do when I have the problem as compared to when I do not. I started a few days ago to practice working on it, because if I could call it up right away when they start, I can end the problem in minutes. Turns out it is not so easy to do as a daily exercise. So if I was explaining how to practice it, I would tell the person learning it that it was difficult.

    Quote So it is difficult to cobble together those tantric details *and* push it to a point where it has a physiological effect.

    I have experienced the effect, which has led me to believe that the details are important, and although it is "difficult", it is better than the way I did it.
    I think this is true as well.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    There are reasons why Chakrasamvara is perhaps the most difficult text.


    I was a bit reluctant to mess with it since it has that reputation, but I am glad we did because it is showing us some iteration of yoginis we know nothing about.


    David Gray translated it but I can no longer find a link that doesn't ask for subscription.

    Evidently, Herukabhidhana (Discourse of Heruka) *is* Laghu Chakrasamvara, this latter being "light" since it is an abridgement of the legendary, missing 100,000+ verse form. Like anything else that says so, there is no evidence that such a massive version ever existed.


    It is notoriously incomplete:

    The Cakrasamvara Tantra is largely dedicated to describing ritual,
    magical, and meditative practices. These practices can be categorized with
    respect to the type of ‘achievement’ (siddhi) that their successful application
    is thought to yield. These are the supramundane achievement (lokottarasiddhi)
    of complete awakening, and the mundane powers (laukikasiddhi) of flight,
    invisibility, pacifying enemies, and so forth.
    The former, awakening, is achieved by the advanced meditative
    practices that are usually grouped under the rubrics of ‘creation stage’
    (utpattikrama) and ‘perfecting stage’ (nispannakrama) practice.

    The Cakrasamvara Tantra, however, is extremely secretive concerning advanced meditative
    practices, about which it only provides vague hints. For example, a central
    element of ‘creation stage’ meditation is the practice of visualizing oneself
    as a deity, and visualizing the mandala with its complete array of deities.
    The text does not provide a full, detailed description of the mandala itself.
    The central deities, Heruka and his consort Vajravarahi, are described, but
    their descriptions are scattered throughout several chapters. The other 60
    deities of the mandala are not described at all, but only mentioned by
    name. There is no coherent description of the meditation practices in
    which you visualize yourself as the deity, or of the mandala itself. The
    advanced perfection stage meditation practices, which focus on the subtle
    body, are not mentioned all, except perhaps in vague hints that are
    unpacked by the commentators.


    So that is why we go elsewhere for Generation Stage. This is just an early type of application of it.

    In the commentarial tradition, there is a Laukika Pill for whatever an "invisibility siddhi" would really be, but, the same thing may be used for a certain Karma Mudra useful for Lokottara Siddhi:

    Moreover, the expression ‘Sri
    Heruka’s mouth’ is deliberately ambiguous. According to the late ninth century commentator Bhavabhatta, it is the yogi who, visualizing himself
    as Heruka, puts the pill in his own mouth to achieve invisibility (Pandey
    2002, p. 88). However, the fifteenth-century Tibetan commentator,
    Tsongkhapa, understands this rite as involving a ‘zombie’ (vetala), a corpse
    in a charnel ground that is reanimated via the insertion of the pill in its
    mouth.

    There is considerable uncertainty regarding the practice of most
    of the rituals described in this text. Contemporary Tibetan traditions
    appear to pay little heed to these rites, and instead focus on the ‘secret’
    practices that are thought to rapidly lead to the attainment of awakening.


    So, yes, it is kind of unheard of that anyone really believes in a bunch of potions, or spells that will fix your boss or win the lottery or that kind of thing. Are they mostly symbolic of something that can be perceived or done by the subtle body, probably so.

    It perhaps has two points of origin, although they are no longer different:



    According to the tradition, the Cakrasamvara Tantra is a teaching that is
    preserved by the deities, who abide in the power places [Pithas] as well as in
    Buddhist pure lands (Gray 2005a). When the karmic circumstances are
    right, they periodically reveal it to humans. According to the Tibetan
    historian gZhon-nu-dpal, the scripture and its associated practice tradition
    has been revealed not once, but twice, in the current historical era. The
    tradition was revealed by Heruka to his consort Vajravarahi, who taught
    it to the siddha or ‘tantric saint’ Luipa. It was revealed again by Vajradhara
    to the bodhisattva Vajrapani, who taught it to the siddha Saraha (Roerich
    1976, pp. 380–97). Both of these lineages converge on the figures of the
    siddha Tilopa and his disciple Naropa (956–1040 ce), who evidently
    played a very important role in the preservation of this tradition in India.9
    And as Naropa had several students from the Kathmandu valley and Tibet,
    he also played a key role in its dissemination to these regions (Lo Bue
    1997).


    Neither of those take into account Santikar Acharya who had manifested Chakrasamvara's retinue externally ca. 650.


    The final manuscript is also believed to have had "a few Buddhist things" added to a strongly Saivite original. Dakarnava says it has fifty chapters, so, the fifty-first was probably added afterward:

    Bhavabhatta, the fifth abbot of Vikramasila
    who was active ca. 900 ce, does comment on these passages. Evidently,
    the heavily Buddhist conclusion of the text was composed after the text
    had been adopted in Buddhist monastic institutions such as Vikramasila
    during the ninth century. This would have occurred during the latter half
    of the ninth century, after the composition of the Dakarnava Tantra and
    Jayabhadra’s commentary, but before the composition of Bhavabhatta’s.



    In Buton Rinchen Drub's History of Buddhism (Wylie: chos-'byung), Luipa is mentioned as the son of King Lalitachandra of Oddiyana. When the prince met Śabara, a disciple of Saraha, he was immensely impressed by this great adept and begged him for instruction. He received initiation into the tantra of Cakrasaṃvara. The initial part of his penance was completed when he joined a circle of twenty-four Dakas and Dakinis in a ganachakra in a charnel ground which climaxed in consumption of the corpse of a sage.

    Taranatha and the Sakya school say he was a scribe of King Dharmapala.


    And it gets into a debate about who really was the first Mahasiddha:

    The Chatura****i-Siddha-Pravritti begins with the legend of Luipa. This may be a reflection of the belief prevalent during the period of the narrator or the translator, that Luipa was the first siddha (adi-siddha) in terms of either time or status. The first Pada of the Charyapada was also attributed to Luipa and in its commentary in Sanskrit, Munidatta mentions him as the Adisiddhacharya. It is also an indicator of the contemporary belief. But some modern scholars like Rahul Sankrityayan claimed Saraha as adi-siddha. Luipa was definitely born after Saraha, since Luipa's teacher Savaripa was Saraha's disciple, but their lifetimes probably overlapped. Both Saraha and Luipa were originators of Samvara-tantra lineages, but it was Luipa who received the title of Guhyapati (Master of Secrets) in addition to his status of adi-siddha in the lineage that practiced the Samvara-tantra according to the method of Luipa. He received direct transmission from the Dakini Vajravarahi. If Luipa obtained his original Samvara revelation in Oddiyana, the home of several of the wisdom (mother) tantras, he probably was one of the siddhas responsible for propagating this tantra in Eastern India. But whatever the tantra's provenance, Luipa became the great exemplar of Saraha’s preachings, as confirmed in the Padas assigned to him in Charyagītikosha, and his sadhana (practice) became the inspiration and example for some of the most respected names amongst the siddhas, Kambalapa, Ghantapa, Indrabhuti, Jalandharipa, Kanhapa (Krishnacharya), Tilopa and Naropa all of whom initiated into the Chakrasamvara-tantra according to the method of Luipa. Sakya tradition maintains that, three principal Guru Sampradaya (lineages of teachers) of the practice of Chakrasamvara-tantra are of Luipa, Ghantapa and Naropa. Marpa Dopa transmitted this tantra to Tibet, where it has continued as the principal yidam sadhana (practice) of the Kagyu school till date.


    Saraha is really prominent for other things:

    Arrow Dakini

    Pithesvari Tara

    Buddhakapala


    Then from his follower Sabari or Savaripa you get a lot more Vajrayogini and Vilasini.


    Even on Berzhin Archives, I think they have mixed Sutra Nagarjuna with tantric Nagarjuna who is in the historical record:

    At Nalanda, Nagarjuna studied sutra and tantra with Ratnamati – an emanation of Manjushri – and, with Saraha, especially The Guhyasamaja Tantra (dPal gsang-ba ‘dus-pa’i rgyud). In addition, he learned alchemy from a brahmin, and gained the ability to transmute iron into gold. Using this ability, he was able to feed the Nalanda monks during famine. Eventually, Nagarjuna became the abbot of Nalanda.

    It may sometimes be mistakenly said that Nagarjuna was the first abbot of Nalanda, whereas he was probably fifth or so. But the collusion that is indicated here is what makes me lean towards the view of Saraha as Adi Siddha. That is because the actual Nalanda was not built as early as the Sutras or Asanga. The difficulty with this logic is that Saraha is then way before the lifetime of his pupil Sabari.


    Concerning the term Emergence, it seems to have two translations:

    -bhava as in Samputodbhava

    -odaya as in Chapter 12: “The emergence of Vajraḍāka” (vajraḍākodaya).

    Chapter 13: “The emergence of the nondual oblation of hero and all rituals”
    (vīrādvayapūjāsarvakarmodaya).

    Is Vajradaka more explanatory and yet a continuation of Chakrasamvara, yes, it is said to have parts that closely resemble Herukābhidhānatantra (also named Cakrasaṃvara or Laghusaṃvara: abbr. Herukābhidhāna), chapters 34 and 36.



    So although you have Luipa and Saraha, none of this is giving us any indication that "the" Samvara, which I call Dakini Jala, had already been out before either one of them. So there is a blur, because there is this Samvara terminology, and most Chakrasamvara deities are not new, there plausibly is this background for Santikar to have been able to do it, or for it to have been wafting around in Nepal as, maybe, the tradition without this particular Chakrasamvara text.

    As we have seen, practically all the Chakrasamvara-style tantras refer to Dakinijalasamvara, which says to me, like everything else does, well if it just appears it means you should have established it first.

    And so if they are a little bit different, it would probably be reasonable to say that Dakini Jala represents divisions into Six Families, whereas Chakrasamvara is usually kind of simple and just has a few rings based on division into the Tri-kaya:


    The Cakrasamvara mandala is structurally simple, consisting of a series
    of concentric rings. It centers upon the divine couple of Heruka and
    Vajravarahi, united in sexual embrace. Surrounding them is the ‘gnosis
    wheel’ (jñanacakra), which consists of the four ‘essence yoginis’, Dakini,
    Lama, Khandaroha, and Rupini. They are surrounded by three additional
    wheels known (respectively, from inner to outermost) as the ‘mind’,
    ‘speech’, and ‘body’ wheels. Each of these wheels consists of eight deity
    couples, for a total of 16 deities each. These deities are colored blue, red,
    and white, respectively, and the 24 couples are understood to correspond
    to the 24 sacred spaces conquered by these deities in the distant past.
    These three wheels are understood to correspond to the ‘triple world’
    (trailokya) cosmos of ancient India, consisting of the heavens, surface
    world, and underworld. They are also understood to correspond to the
    three bodies of a Buddha. These, in turn, are surrounded by the ‘commitment
    wheel’ (samayacakra), which consists of eight fierce goddesses who guard
    the gates and quarters of the mandala palace. The periphery of the
    mandala is often illustrated with the ‘eight great charnel grounds’.



    Here is what it sounds like for an academic to discover something without claiming they understand it by self-knowledge:

    These include the sexual yoga of
    the ‘four joys’ (caturananda), which involve an orgasm transformed and
    experientially heightened through the use of yogic techniques.


    Now, having studied the original a little bit, we found where it, at the very least, combs through an ordeal of Seven Yoginis; but, according to the translator, the end of Volume One is a long subject:

    Having received consecration, the male adept needs
    to find a female partner for sexual practices, called a ‘messenger’ (duti).
    The Cakrasamvara Tantra then describes in some detail the ‘families’ (kula)
    of female practitioners whom the adept must seek out. Over the course
    of ten chapters (Chapters 15–24), it relates their characteristic appearances
    so that he can identity them, as well as the physical signs and verbal codes
    that he must display to correctly identify himself and win their favor. The
    text also evokes, without providing any detailed descriptions, the sexual
    practices that he should conduct with her. This is the ‘great worship of
    the consort’ (mudramahapuja), which involves sexual union for the purpose
    of producing mixed male and female sexual fluids, which are then
    consumed by the couple in order to give rise to magical powers (siddhi)
    such as flight. This tradition thus seems to mirror the earlier traditions of
    Hindu tantric practice, which have been studied in detail by David White
    (2003). No mention is made in the Cakrasamvara Tantra of the more
    complex ‘sexual yogas’ involving the ‘four joys’, the retention of the
    sexual fluids, and their redirection into the central channel of the subtle
    body. However, several commentators interpret the Cakrasamvara Tantra in
    terms of these practices.


    There is then some discussion about how much of this was real and how much symbolic.

    From following the teachings generally, I get the sense that it is 100% symbolic, and am prepared to back that up by saying I understand what it means on the inside.


    At the same time, that does not mean it was 0% what most people call "real", i. e., manifest. And I can only speak to that in a pretty low order, in other words I have no clue what it is like to do this with another person who is aware of it, let alone with something like a timeless dakini.

    I suppose some of this has always been offensive to "some people", and since it was mainly Hindus who lived there, it sounds like "offensive to Hindus". But really, we have plenty of things like war and murder, and to go around getting easily offended tells us you have the Upeksa of a mushroom.



    The Buddhist Esoteric Community as a whole, including India, has ways of saying it is much older than appears in writing:

    One tradition has it that Shakyamuni Buddha himself proclaimed the tantra the morning after his enlightenment. Other traditions claimed that Maitreya taught the tantra in the Tu****a Heaven, Asanga carried it to earth in the 4th century.

    According to one tradition, the Guhyasamāja Tantra was taught for the first time by the Buddha in the form of Vajradhara to Indrabhuti the King of Oddiyana, also called King Dza.


    However on the historical record, it immediately establishes a split contrary to Candrakirti, i. e., probably the main person that Ratnakarasanti was refuting:

    As with most tantras, there are different traditions and transmissions. Perhaps the oldest surviving lineage is the Jñānapada Tradition (ye shes zhabs lugs), which goes back to Buddhaśrijñāna (late 8th century). The most important historically is the Ārya tradition (gsang 'dus 'phags lugs) which is based on commentaries attributed to Nāgārjuna, Āryadeva, and Candrakīrti.


    Jnanapada is in the Profound View lineage, the one mainly based in terms of Inner Meaning. This is the way that heavily emphasizes Yoga Tantra and Generation Stage, such as the continuity from STTS, and mainly uses Saffron Manjuvajra, which we found affiliated with a type of single practice involving the massive Cunda, which seemed to be going through a precursor of the rotation of yoginis, which was Vajrasattva shifting around a few Vajri goddesses.

    The Guhyasiddhi of Padmavajra, a work associated with the Guhyasamaja tradition, prescribes acting as a Saiva guru and initiating members into Shaiva Siddhanta scriptures and mandalas.


    In Guhyasamaja we are going to get a big difference in reading it literally or symbolicly:

    when the diamond (i.e. lingam) is connected to the lotus (i.e. yoni) in the union of both polarities, one worships the Buddhas and the diamond beings with the drops of one's semen.

    We also read that the male adept, or yogi, lets his semen flow out continuously in the form of mandalas.


    On the second, it would mean Bodhicitta actually manifesting deities, which is what Santikar was doing.

    And so keep in mind that the following description is contemporaneous with Suspended Animation:


    There are various similarities between this text and the later Kalachakra Tantra, as both texts deal extensively with magic and ritual sexuality; especially the so-called Sadanga Yoga (Yoga of Six Limbs) all six stages of which are practiced while the two partners are sexually aroused and joined in the yab-yum position.


    Nagarjuna is really attributed with Profound View in contrast to Extreme Deeds:

    Nagarjuna (Klu-grub), together with Asanga (Thogs-med), were the two great pioneers of the Mahayana tradition. Nagarjuna transmitted the lineage teachings of the profound view of voidness from Manjushri, while Asanga transmitted the lineage teachings of the extensive bodhisattva practices from Maitreya.


    Well, the tantras are described as Yogacara, and Herukabhidhana uses the term "cittamatra" multiple times, but according to Nagarjuna it is mostly about voidness; if, rather than a mutual exclusion, it is more of a hybrid, that would be the main intent of Nirakara. Almost like telling me a Karma Mudra is somehow going to induce suspended animation.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    I wasn't commenting on his wisdom, he was known as the man from Onion Valley because he actually was the man from Tsongkha which is a valley but I'm not sure it really means onion valley. It was a route down from the Tarim basin into Tibet, into Amdo. I've always taken it to mean he had access to far more streams of Buddhist thought growing up than people from a more traditional place.

    It is great to call him Onion, after all, we have Sesame Seed, Fish Guts, Ugly, Liar, and all sorts of names for the saints.

    I wonder about the C. A. Muses text attributed to him. It essentially makes him a crypto-Dzogchen.

    HPB was perhaps a bit off in believing that he taught against sex. It does seem accurate that she was affiliated with the Geluks by means of the private retreat of the Panchen Lama. Alice Cleather reprinted Voice of the Silence with guidance from the Eighth Panchen, who said his predecessor knew HPB well. And I believe it was the predecessor to him that caused to be created the Icons Worthwhile to See, the compendium of 500+ deity images from Taranatha's Rinjung Gyatsa, Sadhanasamuccaya, and Abhayakaragupta's Vajravali as published in Tibetan Deities.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    matr is the root. Other things can be made of it, including just different parts of speech or plurals, or duals.

    Particularly in the case of matrika, it can be singular, plural, or adjectival.

    In Herukabhidhana we find:

    mātṛkāpañcama ukāraḥ |


    Then, a few words later, what looks like thirty-seven Mam syllables which either Elephant Crocodile, or, they do/make the sound mam:

    saptatriṃśattamamakṣaraṃ makāraḥ |


    Then, a few words later, it looks like a Yaksa joins the sadhana:

    dhyāto yakṣādīn vasa( śaya )tīti sādhanaṃ ḍākinīsmṛtam |


    And then there were thirty-eight:

    aṣṭatriṃśatimaṃ caiva dvitīyasvarayojitam |



    Volume One, at least, usually says five matrikas, but the last time, it is in some sequence of four--seven five--seven and six--seven, using Sabda or Sound:

    śobhanaṃ sarvavarṇānāmevameva na saṃśayaḥ |
    catuḥsaptatimaṃ caiva dvitīyasvarayojitam || 30 ||

    catuḥsaptatīti | catuḥsaptatimamakṣaraṃ hakāramabrabīt | caiva - śabdaḥ pūrvavat | dvitīyasvarayoge hā - rupaṃ syāt || 30 ||

    ādisiddhidaṃ tathāgatamukhodgatam |
    pañcasaptatimaṃ caiva mātrikāṣaṣṭhameva ca || 31 ||

    pañcasaptatīti | pañcasaptatimamakṣaraṃ dhakāramabravīt | caiva pūrvavat | mātrikāṣaṣṭhayoge tacca dhū - rupaṃ syāt || 31 ||

    eṣa yogavaraḥ śreṣṭaḥ sarvayogeṣu cottamaḥ |
    ṣaṭsaptatiṃ caiva mātṛkādvitīyena tu || 32 ||

    ṣaṭsaptatimaṃ ṣaṭsaptatimamakṣaraṃ makāraṃ mātrikādvitīyena bhedayet | caivaśabdaḥ pūrvavat || 32 ||




    Woodroffe gives the Shakta meaning:

    But for the last three states of sound the body is required and, therefore, they only exist in the Jīva. In the latter, the Śabda-Brahman is in the form of Kuṇḍalinī Śakti in the Mūlādhāra Cakra. In Kuṇḍalinīis Paraśabda. This develops into the “Mātṛkās” or “Little Mothers” which are the subtle forms of the gross manifested letters (Varṇa).

    Mātṛkā Varṇa means mother of colours. There are innumerable waves and vibrations. Tāntric seers have divided them into fifty categories. The division is based on intuitive realization. These are fifty controlling sounds. The fifty letters of the Sanskrit alphabet, from a (अ) to kṣa (क्ष), are the resultant sounds. They are the controlling sounds (bīja-mantras) of the fifty categories. A (अ) is the bīja-mantra of creation. अ of Sanskrit, a of Latin, alpha of Greek and aliph of Persian are the first letters of their respective alphabet because they represent the creative manifestation. The fifty letters are the embodiments of fifty gross sounds. Mātṛkā Varṇa is a causal matrix.



    There, it is not specifically consonants, as it seems to be in the Saivite usage.



    Quote That's what I thought when I worked out that phrase, that it was talking about the thing it was explicating, and that whatever it was (mandala, spell, meditation, visualization) was difficult.

    Yes. If I said Forest of Turquoise Leaves is the easiest Pure Land to enter, that has nothing to do with whether it is easy to enter Forest of Turquoise Leaves.

    There are aspects that are relatively easy, perhaps mainly the things that pertain to relief of distress, which may be why most people convert. I don't need Vajrayogini to alleviate depression or rage, until you are sensitive to the very subtle plane and its relatively mild, but more difficult to remove, disorders.

    Very simple and basic kinds of mantras and practices can help troubled people fairly quickly if they trust it.

    Ganapati Hrdaya has an increasingly clear effect on me and it is a bit weird since I think of only doing it on Tuesday. It is not yet as subtle as what I would consider Vajrayogini terms, but, a precursor, for sure.


    Quote Turns out it is not so easy to do as a daily exercise. So if I was explaining how to practice it, I would tell the person learning it that it was difficult.

    Yes, I can get a halfway decent understanding of what is going on there. Without having the same affliction, it is hard to conceive of actually doing it.

    I have pretty good physical karma, in terms of no diseases or injuries have ever been anything big for me, but on the other hand, I have something like a psychological curse, and can probably relate to the vast majority of things in the mental and emotional disturbances variety.

    And so in a certain sense there is a gulf between me and anyone with physical pain or other problem, there isn't actual sympathy, in the chemical or alchemical sense of like bonds with like. It's like a song I just don't know.


    Quote I think this is true as well.

    What seems to me to have been the case is that there is a tendency to overly dwell in unity or one-ness or else the opposite into multitude and exponential scales.

    What mandalas do is more like focus on certain sets, like constellations, small groups of varying sizes which for some reason make things a lot clearer and more powerful.

    Brian Hodgson's manuscript is laid out pretty plainly like that, giving you the classifications for one, two, three, four, five, six, eight, nine.

    You can tell they key to work it isn't in it and so it is considered present by way of exclusion. If I thought this logic did not apply here, Adi Prajna Guhyesvari would declare it so.

    If I have that thing then I have Six Families and Nine Moods, which makes the entire Vajra Rosary, which even Tson kha pa could not elaborate one hundred per cent. I can be reasonably certain I am not about to outpace his progress any time soon, which is why I stay oriented towards what these kinds of sets are about.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Tsongkhapa, understands this rite as involving a ‘zombie’ (vetala), a corpse
    in a charnel ground that is reanimated via the insertion of the pill in its
    mouth.
    [...]
    Are they mostly symbolic of something that can be perceived or done by the subtle body, probably so.
    So let's stop for a second and imagine how that would work. A laukika pill, which by definition is non-sacred, almost profane, worldly, impure, but nevertheless a siddhi, is inserted into the mouth of a non-physical body corpse, and it causes 'invisibility.' The setting is the charnel grounds.

    When Luipa is allowed to be initiated,

    Quote He received initiation into the tantra of Cakrasaṃvara. The initial part of his penance was completed when he joined a circle of twenty-four Dakas and Dakinis in a ganachakra in a charnel ground which climaxed in consumption of the corpse of a sage.
    Elsewhere, the ganachakra is described as working to the climax by bonding with all of the others, in an invisible but nevertheless visualized conjoining the visualization of which the participants must maintain through their compassion for all beings (could read skillful means).

    So what is the pill? Add these up and it seems like it is shakti, no? Shakti that is conjoined and the conjoining is kept up by skillful means, so it is Shakti in her guise as Prajna.

    Or maybe not. But in my shakings, I have been a corpse in a charnel grounds, so I would assume that the Vajrayana adepts of a rite like this could easily do this in the subtle body as you say. And before, you had rendered a paragraph as saying that the corpse is composed of the Dharmadhatu.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote HPB was perhaps a bit off in believing that he taught against sex.
    Except for the Shakers, who were famously against sex to the point that they died out, I usually decide that it is unsafe to bet people who died before I was born were against sex. It's too easy to project from one's own circumstances.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Particularly in the case of matrika, it can be singular, plural, or adjectival.
    So, I'm only on Chapter 3 of my Sanskrit textbook. I've learned about the sandhi (very useful to us, if you look up sanskrit sandhi, you can find charts and tables), and I've learned about the present tense, and the nominative, vocative, and accusative cases, but only for masculine and neuter. So I can't be much help for all the words derived from matr except that I know there are words derived from it. And that any noun can also be an adjective (which happens in English, too). And I do know that the suffix i-->ika is a derivative of some kind, and that matrika refers to the seven as a group.
    matrkapancama sounds like something having to do with the matrika on pancama, which is either the 5th day of the moon, or the 5th month of the year by context. Like manasapancama which is a ritual on the 5th day of the moon in July-August to placate snakes.


    Quote
    Quote That's what I thought when I worked out that phrase, that it was talking about the thing it was explicating, and that whatever it was (mandala, spell, meditation, visualization) was difficult.
    Yes. If I said Forest of Turquoise Leaves is the easiest Pure Land to enter, that has nothing to do with whether it is easy to enter Forest of Turquoise Leaves.
    So 'difficult' was what my dictionary said, and it does work. My textbook uses the word in a sentence for an example, and they say it actually means "inaccessible".

    Quote Yes, I can get a halfway decent understanding of what is going on there. Without having the same affliction, it is hard to conceive of actually doing it.
    I'm continuing to practice it, and used it once today. Practicing did help, and it worked. I can give a neurophysical explanation of it, just as there is a way to separate orgasm from ejaculation to create bliss, there is a way to separate nausea from vomiting to create, I guess nausea. Most people wouldn't make that comparison, but if you need to have the two states but not the physical acts, they become more similar. There are probably a whole host of such states that are normally attached to some physical action that are not intrinsically that way.

    I have begun digging around looking for pre-Sena deities, deities that might have gone from Buddhism to Hinduism in post-Pala Bengal. Familiar names from some of the things you put up earlier I think, but one I am stuck with, what should be the charnel-grounds dark version of Lakshmi. Can't figure it out.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    So what is the pill? Add these up and it seems like it is shakti, no? Shakti that is conjoined and the conjoining is kept up by skillful means, so it is Shakti in her guise as Prajna.

    ...the corpse is composed of the Dharmadhatu.

    First of all it is like The Pill and The Pills, in almost exactly the same way as Varuni, viz. note 39 which mentions the Inner Offering as consisting of Soma into which the pill has been placed, "for various purposes".

    How to Help Your Loved Ones Enjoy Death for example adds Phowa and Mani Pills.

    So it has a dual meaning certainly as various outer pills but I think all probably derive from the Varuni-esque basic.

    Then since this Inner Offering is the main part of a sadhana, in that case yes the symbolic pill is going to increase like Varuni by Prajnopaya.

    In the Nepalese tradition, they do call Prajna, Shakti, whereas everyone else in Buddhism is recalcitrant about this.

    I take them more or less as Transcendent and Manifest aspects of Mother or Matter.

    So you have found H. P. Lovecraft's Corpse-eating Cult of Leng.

    Luipa literally did this?

    Or what happens when you eat the Dharmadhatu?


    Here, again, you have an "unfair advantage" if you are stable with Ekajati.

    If you do not know what happens if you are afraid of her or if she disturbs you, it is like me not really knowing how bad it is for people that horrible physical things happen to.

    Mental equivalent.

    Most people are servants of her minions and think of it as ordinary. It is the root of war.

    But if you can calm them then you can meditate as corpse or something similar. I, personally, prefer self-effigy funeral, an Oblation to Agni. An enactment of the moment-of-death in a slow perspective.

    What I think remains accurate to say, is that the Kama Rupa or Mayavi Rupa can be trained to interface with the physical world, and "invisibility" says to me, sensible presence, i. e. you can tell what is going on and what people are saying. If you have this Observer capacity, you are an Adept.

    However if instead you enter the Akanistha then if you turn your glance outward, physical light will appear black and objects are holes in space. Negativity.

    Recognition of The Corpse.

    So yes I think we are better off with its symbolic meanings in philosophy and tantra.

    Vetali Devi, is, mostly, the instructor of conquering the entire death cycle and negativity, similar to Vajrahumkara.

    Yet if we go back to "the Samvara" it seems obvious that she is a Mood which is both fun and a driver of Amrita and is a tantric Gauri meaning she has been part of one's aura since beginningless time.

    Now if one can see how Ekajati<-->the Mamos is a...non-dualizing path of purification that turns a vicious feeling into a stable one in terms of coarse mentality, then, in subtle mind, I would say perhaps the class of Vajraraudris<-->Saumyas is similar. Largely unidentifiable to the average person because more closely related to pranic winds.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    the 5th day of the moon, or the 5th month of the year by context. Like manasapancama which is a ritual on the 5th day of the moon in July-August to placate snakes.
    Yes there is Chaturthi Vinayaki then Pancama Manasa, but it just means fifth, generally, such as:


    1. A name of Draupadi, the wife of the five Pandus [Senses].


    For example in Karnataka:

    This evidence suggests these were temples dedicated to Shaktism tradition such as Sarasvati, Kalikadevi, Chamundi and others. Quite likely, these temples were dedicated to the Saptamatrika (seven mothers group with one shrine to each), expanded to Navamatrika (nine mothers).

    Whereas in Nepal, it is usually Asta Matrika, which is also standard in many places.

    Those varieties are like adjustments to a single mandala ring which is often on the Lotus Petals.


    What Chakrasamvara suggests to me is the format of boiling down Five Skandhas, evoking Six Families especially of a wrathful nature, and compelling Seven Jewels to emerge.

    It is trying to portray this through what looks like "kinds of women" and I bet it is in the "character descriptions" of Cumbika, etc., that is where it is trying to describe what the experience of the Jewels is like. If you have this then you will get Seven Parasols. The relevant Chapter Seventeen is Cihnamudravidhi, i. e., Mudra Vidya is the phrase frequently translated as "consort", which, most likely, has a dual meaning on outer and inner levels. Then it can have the third or secret meaning.



    Quote they say it actually means "inaccessible".
    Haha, they may or can. Usually when a sadhana wants to say this, it says Durga, which is the opposite meaning I suppose, inaccessible to evil.



    Quote one I am stuck with, what should be the charnel-grounds dark version of Lakshmi. Can't figure it out.

    Exactly.

    From the Nepalese, Hindu practice of the Mallas, I think you can hypostasize Guhya Kali and Siddha Lakshmi.

    However from the Buddhist sadhana analysis I am going to say Dhumavati.

    Just to kick one of the main debates in the teeth, I would say that is because there are two Odiyanas, Jaipur = Solar and Kashmir = Smoky.



    From Chapter Seventeen, it looks to me like I am being told one Cihna devi is the practice and awareness of the non-dual heros and heroines:

    rupikā sā tu vijñeyā vīrādvayasevitum |


    one is rather violent:

    cumbikā sā tu vijñeyā ḍākinī cāghanāśinī |


    then incorporates Bhairava:

    anyathā niḥśvāsa bhairavastu lāmā'sau vinirdiśe ]t |
    vārāhaśarabhamārjāraśrṛgālādyā ajā hayā || 7 ||


    with a Boar and

    Śarabha (शरभ) refers to “legendary animal with eight legs” (living in the forest), according to the Rāmāyaṇa chapter 2.29.

    and then Unborn Horse.


    Shortly after that is a protection of Hasa--Laughter and

    Spaṣṭa (स्पष्ट).—a. [spaś-kta ni° iḍabhāvaḥ]

    1) Distinctly visible, evident, cleary perceived, clear, plain, manifest; स्पष्टे जाते प्रत्यूषे (spaṣṭe jāte pratyūṣe) K. 'when it was broad day-break'; स्पष्टाकृतिः (spaṣṭākṛtiḥ) R.18.3; स्पष्टार्थः (spaṣṭārthaḥ) &c.

    2) Real, true.

    3) Full-blown. expanded.

    4) One who sees clearly.

    Khandaroha, who was not in the list.

    This is the first Spasta in the book and is followed by only a few more along the lines of the Viras.

    Khandaroha is Mamaki, so, no use of Mam syllable could be questioned if that was what was happening before.


    So when we think of beginning a practice with Varuni--Sky Water, then, roughly speaking, she continues *inside* the sadhana as Khandaroha, which is Generation Stage which leads to the Gauris.

    The commentary describes a Nama Mantra, i. e. their names are the mantra, for manifesting the Viras.

    There is a relationship between Yama and Yamini that does not exactly read like "sister":

    Yasya (यस्य).—mfn.

    (-syaḥ-syā-syaṃ) To be done with energy or perseverance. 2. To be killed or put to death.


    It describes them as the Abhidhana, names, speech, or expressions, of the laksana or marks, such as family emblems or seven jewels.

    Bhairava appears to mean Kama Sakti.


    Roughly put, if we at lest get there is a Yamini of Vajra Family dwelling at the heart which--doesn't necessarily destroy the Yama entity so much as negate his effects--you have the core of the tantra.

    Sambhogakaya means "this" expands to a Six Arm Blue goddess such as Bhrkuti and others.

    She is the root of all your cetasikas from every moment in time.

    This is how in the Inverted Stupa in the Citta Chakra all we are barely saying is that all of the nectar and bliss pressed in Generation Stage has well opened the multiple knots involved and many of the physiological tantric states have been experienced and then there is this one which I guess can only be called a spiritual experience.

    It is a special thing like Sukla Tara where the Cemeteries have been burned out and the gates closed.

    It is a little strange to me that the piece considered to show the best Cemeteries is among the oldest, 1100s Nepali, but the description uses the muddled Tibetan-derived names. It is Seven Syllable deity, the point of which is that it is not Chakrasamvara with Six Armor Deities, it is Vajradaka--Smrti with Vajradakini and the other Jewels of Enlightenment:


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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    The tantras, and/or the mandalas associated with them, are said to more or less exist primordially, and await someone on earth able to manifest them.


    They are difficult and there are quite a few stories of Mahasiddhas who had quit their practice if not given up on life completely before having their realization. And so the main version of Nairatma's transmission of Hevajra Tantra is like that. If it was spontaneously revealed to Virupa after years of Chakrasamvara practice "with no result", that means he was doing it at a Kriya level.

    Chakrasamvara is "not" a Kriya Tantra because, at the very least, you are being told about some weird different kind of energy in the Nadis and something about Completion Stage. But if he did not "get" it, he had stalled out in the Yoga level, unable to translate the words and symbols into Inner Meaning.

    Oppositely, although deities such as Marici "are" Kriya deities, it just means that those sadhanas do not say anything about Nadis, Completion Stage, etc., whereas she herself certainly does in Sadhanamala.

    According to Rigpa Wiki, the Hevajra, then, is at such a point that:

    it emphasizes the completion phase, in contrast to for example the Guhyasamaja Tantra, which is said to teach mainly the generation phase.


    Or, if we said it "requires the Heruka Yoga", that would be a working form of Chakrasamvara Seven Syllable Deity.

    It employs the mystical Vajrasrnkhala and also the entire Vajra Panjara corpus, such as everything dark, viz., Mahakala, Kali, Ekajati, Dhumavati Kamadhatvishvari.


    As slightly more accessible tendrils it has Pratisara and Vajra Tara.

    At first it did not mean much to me that what looks like one of the most significant Vajra Tara sadhanas was contributed by Ratnakarasanti.

    But then as we have seen, he historically is in a position of crafting one of the most profound refined statements of the Dharma, which is not that well-known in Tibet.

    And so, the extent of how much of the ancient lore was about "actual women" and how much was "symbolic",
    Indian Esoteric Buddhism takes this up in the light of how there seemed to be cemetery yoga with no psychic exercises, and other texts that had mentioned yogic energies without being connected to sadhanas.


    In the view of Bodhi, I think it is in the domain of "seeking explanations when there is no one to understand it", which is why to an anthropologist it looks like shuffling legends between cults.

    And so when he gets to dealing with where Four Mudras came from, he can find it seems based from an initial "triumphant" one to an eventual "Buddhist Wisdom" one, however:

    As a consequence, our several theoretical consecration texts generally emphasize the first and fourth consecrations, being the most Buddhist, while the second and third are given very short shrift. Thus the domestication of erotic rituals required that they be framed with the imperial rituals at the beginning and Buddhist philosophical thought at the end. One major exception to an abbreviated treatment of the second and third consecrations is found in Ratnakarasanti’s Abhisekanirukti. However, the esteemed commentator applies his hermeneutics to a fourth consecration-style (Buddhist) discourse on the logical and epistemological implications of these two, rather than on their specific ritual praxis. Beyond this, he teaches that the goal is the attainment of the citadel of Vajradhara, using an older Mahayanist image to extend the imperial metaphor into the goal of the new path.


    What is that...the only known original source of much about some of the Mudras is from within "the Nirakara system".

    In reviewing how many of the early tantras mostly referred to Laukika Siddhis, he separates the following from Rasa (transmutation to gold):


    Rasayana Elixir siddhi means ingesting medicines that arise from the elements, from the veins, from beings’ bodies, or from viscous liquids. One lives a long time without disease, remains young and with sharp faculties.



    This same book also gives Janguli's only mandala from Krishnayamari Tantra.

    As well as Hevajra commentary, there is also:

    Khasama-tantra-tika. Ratnakarasanti. Upadhyay, Jagannath, ed. I983.


    On top of that, however, we are able to get a partial translation of Buddhakapala, bundled with what he describes as hermeneutic gymnastics in order to deflect the horror of it--however, this tantra he says is somewhat in the driver's seat as the synthesis for the disparate or scattered subjects of metaphysics:


    THE BUDDHA'S TALKING SKULL EXCITES WOMEN, KILLS SNAKES, AND BELCHES A BOOK The single most outrageous opening scenario of any Buddhist text with which I am familiar is found in the Buddhakapala-yogini-tantra-raja, a ninth-century
    or later work that self-consciously has included material in imitation of Kapalika Saivism. It is classified as a yogini-tantra and in many ways represents an excellent corrective to the rather limited consideration of yogini-tantra materi­al to date. In view of the available archive, there has been an excessive emphasis on the Hevajra Tantra or the Cakrasamvara corpus, based in part on the Tibetan esteem for these lineages. The Buddhadkapala, though, continues to enjoy a strong traditional reputation and popularity. Its exegetical and ritual visibility signifies that its status as an esoteric text was taken seriously by its Indian authors and commentators as well as by the Tibetans who have preserved its translation. The Buddhadkapala’s introductory scenario relates the narrative of its own preaching and the spiritual source of its text. That inaugural direction is not exceptional in itself, but the Buddhadkapala unfolds its story in a manner virtually guaranteed to shock its listeners or readers.

    After the short, initial description of the Buddhas, their consorts, and their retinues in language familiar to readers of the yogini-tantra literature, the text moves to the precipitating dramatic moment. Then the Bhagavan—having correctly explained the mantras and all the tantras by means of adamantine words in the great adamantine site—this lord of all the Tathagatas placed his vajra in his consort’s lotus, and promptly entered final nirvana [dying] in the lady’s vagina. Having seen the Lord pass away in that manner, all the bodhisattvas and all the yoginis were as­tonished. Looking to one another, they all exclaimed, “Oh, my! How is it that the Bhagavan, the Lord of all the Tathagatas, should pass away in this Great Jeweled Mandala?” So the bodhisattva mahasattva Vajrapani turned to the yogini Citrasena and asked her the following question: “Devi, is there some slight method whereby those beings of lesser merit may ascend to power [*$aktyarohanopaya] ?” “For it is said that there are sixty million [methods] in the yogatantra. There are 160 million in the yogini-tantra. There are 800 million in the various sutrantas. In the same way, there are 500,000 krores [(5 X 105) X 107] within the perfection vehicle [paramitayana]. All of these methods have been expounded by the Munindra [Sakyamuni]. If any are separated from mantras, then the power of tantra [tantrasakti] will not appear.”

    ...

    How many recitations for those who belong to families of morons and idiots? How does one who has lost his goal recite the mantras? For it would seem that mantras recited by those engaged in idle gossip will have their accomplishment occur elsewhere. And if the recitation is done in accordance with the emotions of retarded troglodytes—well, they can recite for as many tens of millions of aeons as there are stars in the sky and get no powers at all.” Now the yogini Citrasena, having heard this, looked at the face of the [deceased] Lord, ogling him with desire and languorous sidelong glances [sakataksa]. Then enraged and ferocious, with a mind full of compassion, she destroyed Mara’s army. Consequently, ogled in that way by this Mahadevi—the Lady and mistress of all the tantras— the head [of Sakyamuni] opens up and out pops a mantra: om buddhe siddhe susiddhe amrita arje buddhakapAla sphotani pAta yatrAsaya hUm ho phat


    Resounding in this way, the supreme mantra goes forth and conquers the nagas below the seventh level, reducing them to dust. The mantra then comes back and enters the mouth of Citrasena, only to emerge from her vagina and returns to the Buddha’s skull. As all the nagas were being destroyed by the power of this mantra, they became afraid and began to sweat heavily. So the great magical snakes, like Vasuki, assembled, as did all the rest of the poisonous tribe: Karkotaka, Sankhapala, Taksaka, Ananta, Padma, Mahapadma, and so forth. Turning toward the yogini Citrasena, they implored her, “Devi, say what you want and we will do it!” She replied, “Do whatever is in accordance with the Buddha’s experience!” As soon as this was heard, in the middle of the Great Jeweled Mandala, the Buddha’s skull opened its mouth wide and out of it emerged a text. The skies resounded with the verse, “O Goddess Citrasena—take the book! It will benefit all beings. This tantra is a great king of tantras, for there is no yogini [tantra] superior to it. It is called Buddhakapala. It will benefit all beings.”

    Having heard this, Citrasena took up the text and entrusted it to Vajrapani. This peculiar opening is an excellent vehicle to test to position that the tantras embed within the secret scriptures a coded language accessible only to the masters. If so, the surviving commentaries would be expected to provide some degree of continuity between their positions and their language, for all three Indian commentators are acknowledged masters. Conversely, if the commentaries are actually independent moments in the domestication of the tantra, then they will instead each display their author’s proclivities.


    Three commentaries are available for the opening chapter of the Buddhakapala: the Sri-Buddhakapalatantrapanjika Jnanavati ascribed to Saraha, the Buddhakapalatantrapanjika Tattvacandrika ascribed to Padmavajra, and the Sri-Buddhakapalamahatantrarajatika Abhayapaddhatih of Abhayakaragupta. In reality, the commentaries are so different one from the other that it is sometimes hard to believe that they comment on the same text or belong to the same tradition.

    The Saraha commentary is either the most creative or the least linear, depending on whether any degree of consistency is desired. Having described the teacher and retinue in a relatively standard fashion, Saraha declares the yogini Citrasena as an emanation of the Buddha, not too different from the kind of grand solipsistic hermeneutics found in the Hevajra Tantra, wherein all the elite members of his retinue are the Tathagata’s manifestations. However, the balance of the retinue is described in standard terms, identifying Ananda and Avalokitesvara as members of the Arhatsangha and Bodhisattvasangha, respectively, all residing together in the mandala. When the Buddha sudden­ly enters nirvana, though, the Bodhisattvas all become the faculties of vision, hearing, and so on. From this point on, most of the characters are simultaneously explained as internal components— especially the various yogic chan­nels (nadi), forms of gnosis, or the Buddhas of the yogic “perfecting process” (sampannakrama)— as well as being the external agents. The description leaves the student with the queasy feeling that not only is the Buddha’s physical body inhabited by the various “perfecting process” internal mandala figures, unexceptional in itself, but that they are individually and collectively active charac­ters in the drama of the tantra. Consequently, the reader courts the uncomfortable suspicion that the Buddha’s internal soteriological diagram will break into song and dance at a moment’s notice, as scriptural personalities some­ times do in the yogini literature. Although the other two commentators are much more prosaic, all three represent the instance of the Buddha’s passing (entrance into nirvana) in dif­ferent ways. Saraha maintains that, since nirvana is utterly dissociated from thought, and since this is the characteristic of the Buddha’s absolute body (dharmakaya), all we have to do is understand that the Buddha is demonstrat­ing the dharmakaya. This dharmakaya is somehow seen by the assembled retinue, a possibility in the case of the dharmakaya defined as the “corpus of in­struction,” which clearly identifies the issue of leading up to preaching (emitting) the tantra about to be presented. However, the definition of dharmakaya given by Saraha is that it is cognitively nonconceptual, so his comment appears a very curious explanation of a physical event.

    Padmavajra, conversely, defines the process as the pattern of sexual yoga according to the practice of sampannakrama. Thus the Buddha is merely demonstrating to the bodhisattvas of pure birth the way to reside in the essence of great bliss. Here, Padmavajra glosses nirvana as the highest reality (tattva). His definition is dependent on the specifically Vajrayana employment of the designation “tattva” for the various elements of esoteric practice.

    Finally, Abhayakaragupta’s text indicates that the form of nirvana is nonlocalized, a common definition of nirvana within the Mahayana. The Buddha is nonlocalized in phenomenal existence through the presence of insight derived from the adamantine seat of the Great Seal; he is nonlocalized in quiescent peace, as his great compassion motivates him for the welfare of all beings. Empowered by prior accomplishment and impelled by his nonadhesion to the extreme perspectives, the Bud­dha is capable of assuming whatever form may be required by beings as long as existence lasts, through his nonconceptual identity with the unlimited Tathagatas, bodhisattvas, yoginis, and so on.



    ...the skull of the Buddha is that which is required to release the mantra and the text of the tantra. Moreover, the commentators explain away the intriguing necrophilia of Citrasena by the same token— if the Buddha does not really die, then the desire exhibited for the corpse of the Buddha by Citrasena is really desire for the phenomenal body of the Buddha (nirmanakaya) . Finally, the immediately succeeding events— the survey of esoteric literature, the ecstasy of Citrasena that results in overcoming Mara and the release of the mantra, the attack on snakes, and the exposure of the text all lose their liter­ary force in the interpretive process. In fact Abhayakaragupta successfully turns the whole episode around and argues for the unlimited action of the Buddha in the world as a result of this episode; he does not reveal how this ac­ tion would cause consternation in the assembly.



    The anthropological slant is always a bit, slanted, it seems to me, since from the practical standpoint, it would be better to say Maha Rupa is not "gigantic", but, a six arm form related to Sambhogakaya, and "gourd" is really Kamandalu or Initiation Pitcher.

    Associated with the tantras are several rituals, with attendant iconography, that focus on two fem­inine divinities: Pamasabari and Janguli. The former clearly derives her name from one standard reference to the Sabaras— the “leaf clad” (parna) Sabaras— which was explained by an origin legend that lasted, according to Russell, well into the nineteenth century for the Bundelkund Saora (Figure 15).218 Similar­ly, the Janguli goddess is indicative of her origin in the jungle (jangala), a des­ignation for “forest” that is in fact a loanword in English through Hindi. Both of these goddesses enjoy well-distributed literature and are sometimes, as in chapter 15 of the Krsnayamari-tantra, invoked in the same ritual.

    So now, I will pronounce the ritual meditation on the Noble Janguli. By merely visualizing her, one could cross over water. (1) Visualize her with three faces, and six arms. She is yellow, and forms from the seed mantra Phuh. She holds a snake in her hands and is of enor­mous form. She loves to ride on her peacock vehicle. (2) To the east, paint Mayuri, with Bhrkuti to the south. To her west is Parnasabari, and Vajrasmkhala to the north. (3) Peacock feathers, a gourd, a branch and a chain—visualize these (for the other goddesses) and their colors: yellow, red, dark, and blue. (4) The intelligent one will visualize them thus, and recite the mantra: om phuh jah (5) Place (visualize) Mudgara, etc., at the doors (in the cardinal directions) and Puspa, etc., in the intermediate directions. Then, by the Noble Janguli yoga, you can always cross over water.

    Kumaracandra’s commentary adds that the snake is in her (upper) right hand, with a sword and knife in the other two; in the left three hands are a wheel, a lotus and a skullcap. In Krsnayamari XV.4b, sphota is translated by the Tibetan translators as a chain, lcags sgrogs, roughly equivalent to the name of the deity carrying it, srkhala.

    Krsnayamari XV.i-6: athatah sampravaksyami aryajangulisadhanam | yena bhavitamatrern jalasyopari cankramet 11 trimukham sadbhujam pitam phuhkarabijasambhavam | sarpahastam maharupam mayuravahanapriyam || purvato mayurim likhed daksine bhrkutim tatha | pascime parnasabarim uttare vajrasrnkhalam || paksam kamandalum sakham sphotam capi vibhavayet | pitam raktam tatha syamam nilam varnaprabhedatah || eta vibhavayet prajno mantram caiva japet tatah | om phuh jah || mudgaradin nyased dvare puspadin konake nyaset | aryajanguliyogena jalam akramyate sada ||


    So here you get Srnkhala in the unusual final or Gnosis position.

    It is not that unusual if she is Hevajra's Karma Family consort, what is unusual is that her power or item is granted into the hands of Lotus Family who themselves do next to nothing to obtain it. Their representative here, Bhrkuti, would seem to be in the wrong place, Water.

    However, that is about the same as Sambhogakaya producing samadhi through smoky content. In this way, Shrnkala is the Activity of the inner samadhi goddesses such as Candika and Raudri.

    As to the incursion of Lakshmi into Saivite terrible forms, we can also simply refer to the popular Mahalakshmi Namostute; since Lakshmi causes and commands her own division as Shiva's consort:

    Aadya[i-A]nta-Rahite Devi Aadya-Shakti-Maheshvari |

    O Devi Who is Without Beginning (Aadi) and Without End (Anta), and Who is the Great Goddess representing the Primordial Shakti


    Sthuula-Suukssma-Mahaaroudre Mahaa-Shakti-Mahodare |

    Whose Power is present behind both Gross and Subtle Forms as well as behind the Most Terrible Form of Rudrani

    That however is almost identical to Subtle Body and Rudra Krama.

    These are only part of the first Dharani goddess of Namasangiti depicted in Ila Devi form. Almost like a kernel of Jewel and Karma Families.
    Last edited by shaberon; 18th May 2021 at 00:09.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Then since this Inner Offering is the main part of a sadhana, in that case yes the symbolic pill is going to increase like Varuni by Prajnopaya.

    In the Nepalese tradition, they do call Prajna, Shakti, whereas everyone else in Buddhism is recalcitrant about this.

    I take them more or less as Transcendent and Manifest aspects of Mother or Matter.
    The death is symbolic, the pill is symbolic. The pills in real life (the Mani pills) are made of ground up relic material. But the cremations in the charnel grounds used to be done for the purposes of looking for these pills in the charred remains -- hard beads left over by cremation that are supposed to occur only on the burning of the bodies of saints. Those were supposed to be related to the drops (bindu) of the living saint.

    Nepal is one of the places where genuine, pre-collapse tantra went after the collapse. Presumably, the meaning of these early (very early, actually) pills was retained.

    Quote If you do not know what happens if you are afraid of her or if she disturbs you, it is like me not really knowing how bad it is for people that horrible physical things happen to.

    Mental equivalent.
    Fair enough.

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    Quote Yes there is Chaturthi Vinayaki then Pancama Manasa, but it just means fifth.
    It does, but the fifth of the matrikas would have pancamam, supposedly, so I thought since manasapancama is a pancama named after manasa and therefore a compound word, this is also such a word. Unless they really say, matrika-five. Like we say Room 1b.

    Quote
    Quote they say it actually means "inaccessible".
    Haha, they may or can. Usually when a sadhana wants to say this, it says Durga, which is the opposite meaning I suppose, inaccessible to evil.
    The Sanskrit text is from a philology point of view and language studies, the sentence example given was 'inaccessible' in the mundane sense.

    Quote Yasya (यस्य).—mfn.

    (-syaḥ-syā-syaṃ) To be done with energy or perseverance. 2. To be killed or put to death.
    Two different parts of speech. I do have enough rudimentary grammar to look at this, the (-syah-syA-syam) are the endings for the first definition yasyah is masculine, etc.. The second definition is a verb, so different.

    Quote It is a little strange to me that the piece considered to show the best Cemeteries is among the oldest, 1100s Nepali, but the description uses the muddled Tibetan-derived names. It is Seven Syllable deity, the point of which is that it is not Chakrasamvara with Six Armor Deities, it is Vajradaka--Smrti with Vajradakini and the other Jewels of Enlightenment:
    There is a blurrier picture of this mandala on Himalayan Art, I'm sure you are aware of it, because you are making this distinction here. Why is it Vajradaka? Is it the description there that you are talking about?

    I'm very interested in the dating, as well, but I suppose that is lost in antiquity.

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    Quote Now the yogini Citrasena, having heard this, looked at the face of the [deceased] Lord, ogling him with desire and languorous sidelong glances [sakataksa]. Then enraged and ferocious, with a mind full of compassion, she destroyed Mara’s army.
    This is the "necrophiliac tendencies" that need to be explained away? She 'ogles' him and then gets enraged and ferocious and compassionately destroys Mara's army? Perhaps she was a bit upset about how things had gone down.

    Quote So now, I will pronounce the ritual meditation on the Noble Janguli. By merely visualizing her, one could cross over water. (1) Visualize her with three faces, and six arms. She is yellow, and forms from the seed mantra Phuh. She holds a snake in her hands and is of enor­mous form. She loves to ride on her peacock vehicle. (2) To the east, paint Mayuri, with Bhrkuti to the south. To her west is Parnasabari, and Vajrasmkhala to the north. (3) Peacock feathers, a gourd, a branch and a chain—visualize these (for the other goddesses) and their colors: yellow, red, dark, and blue. (4) The intelligent one will visualize them thus, and recite the mantra: om phuh jah (5) Place (visualize) Mudgara, etc., at the doors (in the cardinal directions) and Puspa, etc., in the intermediate directions. Then, by the Noble Janguli yoga, you can always cross over water.
    This is the kind of thing I have a feeling exists for Lakshmi as well, in somewhat similar form, taking into account her power. I don't know that it exists, but somehow, there needs to be some counterpart for her in the cemeteries and so forth of pre-11th century texts.

    Sorry for the edit, but I almost forgot, I was trying to get through the Citrasena thing without skipping: I did a lucid dream last night, meaning that for the first time, I was both aware of being in a dream but also made a change to the dream. The transition state turned out not to be something passed through, but rather one of a lot of layers that when they were all applied I was asleep and dreaming.
    Last edited by Old Student; 18th May 2021 at 05:35.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    The death is symbolic, the pill is symbolic.


    So yes, for Yoga purposes, they really are.

    In fact, for most purposes, there isn't a pill, since this is a kind of additional thing which goes into the Nectar. It could probably be delineated with things that are beyond the main components of Generation Stage and Mandala.

    Death, on the other hand, is much more forward-facing and I think you could say a major subject within the bounds of Yoga.


    It has a rather gruesome association with Smoke as the dissipated remains of everything before final Pralaya, and so, by extension, the dissipation of one's own life force in the final hour. And so because there is this cold, waning smoke, I was a bit surprised to see the same thing in something as primal as Brihadaranyaka Upanishad expressed as Prana.

    It starts to take shape when Restraint of Prana or Pranayama is viewed as a physiological stage prior to Samadhi as characterized in large part by Smoky deities. If I run it by the Chakrasamvara Pitha devis, I get

    samādhīndriyasvabhāvā drumacchāyeti

    samādhibalasvabhāvā śyāmādevī


    and then as a Bodhyanga, Haya Karna which turns out to be kind of vague. Nevertheless there is:

    Smoky Candika (Armor of Limbs and Surfaces)

    Smoky Vajraraudri (Samadhi Jewel)

    In the second case, she is an accurate name for the retinue ring, since they are all maharaudras, although she is not first.

    Purity of this Vajraraudri means Samadhi of the same class Bodhisattvas use.

    The Pitha system is big, whereas the Armor and Vajraraudris are extensions of each other.



    There is still the grisly Dudsolma and Remati as Tibetans have them, which are Wrathful forms of Sri, and so what seems to be behind that is that Lakshmi is also considered as having a Smoky form, Dhumavati.


    It is multi-faceted because Smoke has a hidden meaning for Lakshmi Ganesh.

    The idea that Ganesh collects all the Shaktis is not Puranic, but Shakta, and is perhaps the only way Dhumavati ever has a consort:

    In north Indian trantric tradition each mahavidya is assigned by a form of ganpati.
    With each of 10 mahAvidya one or more ganpati is associated .For example Bagalamukhi – Haridra ganpati, Matangi – nritya ganpati ( matang ganpati )
    In case of Dhumavati , Dhumra ganpati is assigned i.e. Dhumra ganpati is ganpati of Dhumavati mahavidya.

    Dhumra ganapati mantra is of 11 letters with couple of dhumavati beeja instead of omkara.


    This type of Ganesh destroys the entire ego, Ahamkara, rather than its aspects such as ignorance or anger. He actually is doing a thing quite similar to colors and Buddha families annihilating enemies. And well then he also has Bagalamukhi who is Pitambara in Buddhakapala. However, Dhuma is the cumulative total, similarly to Samadhi being the Sixth Yoga.



    Of his common two consorts:

    In an inner sense, Buddhi and Siddhi are the ida and pingala nadis, the female and male currents, both of which are embodied within the being of Ganesha, corresponding to Valli and Devayani, the mythological consorts of Lord Murugan.




    As we have seen, Varahi's place may be taken by Vairocani or Bhairavi; the first is a Puranic Durga, whereas the second is virtually the Mahavidya equivalent:

    The bottom level is for Patal Bhairavi, next is for Navadurga or Tripura Sundari and the upper is for Lord Shiva. She specifically is the Wrathful Form of Mahavidya Bhairavi. Goddess Bhairavi represents transforming heat, ‘Tapas’, and also Divine radiance, ‘Tejas’. Tapas is not just asceticism, it is a heightened aspiration that consumes all secondary interests and attachments. Bhairavi is the transformation that comes with destruction, which is not necessarily negative. She personifies light and heat that can burn away the imperfections in the soul. Her mount is Lion. Also Shubmkari "good mother".

    And so it is a bit more common to see Mahavidyas and Durgas corresponding to planets, and, not being exactly the consorts, but, mothers of Vishnu incarnations. This is how it looks when we place the sacred planet Mars along with the three-in-one of geometrical entities because Dhumavati is with Ketu:


    Mars: Vidyadhari Guhyeshvari Vajravarahi (Narasimha, lord of Mars avatar born from Cinnamasta)

    Rahu: Trikaya Vajrayogini Cinnamasta Gauri (Varaha, lord of Rahu avatar born from Bhairavi)

    Ketu: Ganapati Dhumraketu Dhumavati Siddhidhatri (Matsya or first avatar from Dhumavati)

    Navagraha Laghana (Ascendant): Bhairavi (future avatar born from Bhuvaneshvari)


    It is a strange pattern, Dhumavati governs Ketu as does her offspring Matsya and the Ninth Durga.

    Bhairavi is the source of Varaha whose shakti is Varahi, fairly close to Bhairavi as Tapas and Varahi the full sadhana. Varahi by being related to Mars has everything to do with inner heat.


    Ketu is usually baleful, deadly, and final, but here again, yes, of course that would be its default condition, and the Mahavidya is the means of seeing through it so it no longer affects you. Some more Dhumavati accumulated notes are:


    Always hungry and thirsty, never finished, she is the stable void between worlds, so the First Avatar will come from her in the next cycle.

    Dhumavati's vidya is enlightenment found in the blessing of suffering; let the unreal be covered by the smoke of suffering. Enjoy sorrow and find potential beyond pain. She sounds similar to Kali, but of them all, is the one closest to the unmanifest and pralaya. If she is Nirrti, this means lack of Rta. Alakshmi is the opposite of Lakshmi, or without energetic radiance. She carries a winnowing basket and makes a begging gesture. Or else she holds a bowl of fire and the basket is Viveka (discrimination)--asking you what type of grains you really want to deposit in eternity.


    As long as we desire to transcend Her force, She will continue to taunt us, for Hers is not a force to be transcended but surrendered to. In several forms of sadhana, the focus is to plunge deep into the very source of ignorance. In this inquiry, one can dive deep into the dark Void of Non-Being (Dhumavati). This Void takes us away from the pain of existence and here we experience deep peace and bliss. It is tempting to stay here, away from the other darkness of our hidden demons (also Dhumavati). Thus, She is both the darkness of ignorance as well as the merciful darkness of the Void. Like Her winnow that holds the grain along with its impurities of stones and dirt, She holds both of these aspects of darkness within Her austere form. When this Void is known, there is often the strong temptation to remain here, to not engage in life at all and to view the world to be a non-existent illusion (Maya). This nihilistic viewpoint drains one of “juice” and sooner or later, Dhumavati emerges again, bringing up all the submerged stuff of our unresolved darkness. In this, Dhumavati’s compassion is unmatched. Her insistence upon our full processing and embracing of our dark side is manifested so that we can sever all those filaments in the cord of our perceived separation.

    Dhumavati is known as the darkness within darkness. This welcoming and loving embrace is the alchemical process where Dhumavati as Alakshmi transforms into Lakshmi. Thus, as this great Void, She is the Non-Being prior to existence (the evolution of practice) and that which remains after its dissolution (surrender to stoppage or samadhi).

    Dhumavati eats Shiva. She's the burned corpse of Sati come to life. The whole thing, not pieces scattered around. That's why she's a widow with no consort, until we make her Root Consort.


    And so, aside from the actual state of vanishing universes, as a source of wisdom, she is shown to be, I think you could say "responsive" to treatment.


    She very rarely does have a fire basket:








    She is called She Whose Form is Rati. Her lowest form is only Nirmanakaya of Janar Loka. It is intercourse and a corpse. Smile.
    Then she'll come to us in her Activity level. She transcends the Activity components. Her Sambhogakaya is intercourse and a secret sun. Gaze. We take her Dharmakaya which is body-less. Hug, and enter Union. This is how we pass the Night of Enlightenment. In Nepal, she has a secret Dakini existence.























    I would think her mirror is much like Moon Mirror or Manas--Buddhi mirror. She is a bit like Rupika, changing form, or Raudra to Saumya.

    Buddhism is certainly a process of converting the ordinary deadly Ketu into a Ratnaketu or Fiery Crown.

    And so the freakish wrathful Lakshmi that appears like a national symbol of Tibet is an adaption from Dhumavati.

    Green Mahalakshmi of the Dharani becomes crowned by Yamantaka, which is a way of saying the reverse happens, a successful Yamantaka is able to cause this Sambhogakaya Mahalakshmi to arise. If you see what happens there it starts plainly as Kriya, and, Vedic at that, and yet transcends Kama Loka completely. It is the peaceful side of the Smoky deities.


    So most appearances of Dhumavati are a bit uncanny, however her vehicle is Crow which means that the way she interacts with the world is in Pratyahara, whereas her real or Vidya form scarcely descends out of the Janar Loka.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    There is a blurrier picture of this mandala on Himalayan Art, I'm sure you are aware of it, because you are making this distinction here. Why is it Vajradaka? Is it the description there that you are talking about?

    I'm very interested in the dating, as well, but I suppose that is lost in antiquity.

    For one thing, they say it is Avalokita Chakrasamvara with Lasya, which is Advayavajra/Mitra's version as well as Durjayachandra's.

    What they gave was later Tibetan versions, which, themselves, were later back-translated to Sanskrit somewhat incorrectly, whereas we now have the Durjayachandra original sadhana which is the same era and location as the thangka.

    If you fleece it you might say there is red and green out of order compared to:


    Blue Heruki

    Yellow Vajrabhairavi

    Red Ghoracandi

    Green Vajrabhaskari

    Smoky Vajraraudri

    White Vajradakini


    And so from examining it the other ways, it quickly gets blurry with why is there another kind of Six Yoginis and what looks like Tibetan acquisitions of Camunda, but if I look at the sadhana, it plainly is fastening the Seven Jewels of Enlightenment onto a summary of Mt. Meru, Armor, Five Nectars, Armor, etc.

    Then it is showing me they are Extremely Wrathful but they are not really about protecting anything because they are about Purity, such as non-dualization.


    Vajradaka is taking this group and explaining its nature as related to the subtle body. They are not really part of it, but more like secret wisdom which flows from using it wisely.

    The more intricate Samputa and Hevajra could then be seen as taking this practice for accomplished and carrying the ring forward in an evolved manner.

    And if I look at it from the oncoming side, it has got Bhairavi coming from somewhere I would take as an equivalent to Vairocani, Heruki is more or less "the" Ista Devata from Dakini Jala, Vajradakini is the foremost of them all because it is her "class", there is a type of Secret Sun which in fact appears to be demonstrated by Vajra Tara, and we are just kind of left holding the bag on Ghoracandi.

    Because there was no hesitation to use the name Camunda for example in Yamari Tantra, one might wonder why they don't say Red Camunda who sounds appropriate anyway.

    If I wanted to nitpick the thangka, I might think they were trying to exalt this one in the Lotus sector.

    These are not Armor and are not located in the body, they are appearances or manifestations.

    So then I would have a long way to go from the stage of contemplating what Families and Jewels are, to having this retinue as a living presence.

    Gauris are the Grounds and these are the Path.

    They precipitate a mantra, as themselves, backwards, which then forwards becomes the core mantra of Chakrasamvara Completion stages. It also happens to be in the single practice of Reversed White Vajrayogini, which is what I would call Heruka Yoga broadly, i. e. it is the self-arisen kind. It is more like the Sheer Luminosity one is trying to raise, whereas it may frequently be applied in the Incadescent version in the many purifying wrathful rites, and of course there are other kinds.


    And so with the thangka, I would think it would be like a Dharmachakra moment to show where the Wrathful appearance is still like a boomerang which still just goes into something relatively peaceful from the Sutras which is said to be the way to actually live the Noble Eightfold Path.

    It is that while at the same time it is like the mantric and energetic border between developing and having Heruka Yoga.

    Furthermore, it corresponds to everything we could call System of Seven.

    There is stuff about the Cemeteries everywhere but this one is really a kind of primordial existence that is telling another story when viewed in the light of the thing it represents, which is a really valuable key in seeing how Vajrayana Completion Stage is supposed to trigger.

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