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Thread: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    It has started to get my attention from the last post on the previous page.

    We have usually overlooked Vairocana tantra, which has chiefly the progression:

    STTS-->Buddha and Sarvavid Vairocana in Sarvadurgati Parishodana-->Sarvavid Vairocana in Vajradhatu


    What seems to be the case is that Sattvavajri is used as the first retinue goddess, i. e. in the Hook or Eastern position.

    Their original grouping appears to be:

    the four Paramitas, i.e. Sattvavajri, Ratnavajri,
    Dharmavajri and Karmavajri, the four Internal Offerings (fluids), i.e. Vajralasya,
    Vajramala, Vajragita and Vajranrtya

    Sattvavajri is in STTS forty-six times, so we will have to get back to that.


    Sarvadurgati involves Vajrasattva and Sattvavajri, and places Vajradhatvishvari at the center of Vajravajrini and the rest. It seems to refer to Gagana-ganja-samadhi to produce the mandala. At the end, it classifies Seven Jewels of Enlightenment, the Dhyanas, and describes the Pratisamvits as absolute. So it seems to have a process or transfer between Vajravajrini and Sattvavajrini; in English Sarvadurgati Parishodana, Sattvavajri comes up four times.

    According to Sakyamitra, the Symbol-consorts refer to the four Paramitas, i.e. Sattvavajri symbolising ‘perfection of knowledge (jnana)’, Ratnavajri ‘perfection of generosity {dana)', Dharmavajri symbolising ‘perfection of wisdom (prajna)', and Karmavajri symbolising ‘perfection of exertion (virya).



    Vajradhatu has many lineages, but mainly we look to Namasangiti about it. Vilasavajra characterizes Sattvavajri as the pledge-being of all Tathagatas and relates her to Mirror Wisdom. In another page showing chapters 1-5, her class is described as Janas followed by the eight consciousnesses.

    It turns out there is also a Wayman publication of Sarva Rahasya Tantra which involves her. But this is more advanced and seems to place deities to produce Abhisambodhis:

    Any showing of the navel refers to Vajradhatvisvari (rdo rje dbyins dban phyug bsad) Any showing of the 'heart (=chest) implies (the goddess) Sattvavajri. Any showing of the brows is Ratnavajri. Any showing of the throat is Dharmavajri. Any showing of crown of "head should be taken as Karmavajri. "showing of the navel ......": touching the navel, etc. are the five goddesses; these are corporeal signs. Whether it be the one enlightened sooner in the five enlightenments, or the five wisdoms, or the five Buddhas, attended with them is the mandala-enlightenment. "in the five enlightenments": the verse shows verbal signs (gsun gi brda'). [Apparently the mantras recited in connection with the five enlightenments (abhi sambodhi); see verse 17, 43, 44, above.]

    The museum in Turin is a substantial collection, which shows Vajrasattva--Sattvavajri as the first thing on the third floor, with also the appearance of:

    Acala and the pañcaraksha, 13th century

    Evidently they show the couple in blue:









    Circle of Bliss mentions Sattvavajri a few times with some operative details. The gif on their current page is a sequence of White Tara, White Varahi, and Prajnaparamita.

    At Himalayan Art, their link calls this Seventeen Deity Vajrasattva; on the page, it is just Vajrasattva Samvara. The number seventeen would ignore the gatekeepers, so, it probably refers to his "peculiar" deities, likely referring to the format in Dakini Jala and/or Samputa. Here, the couple are different colors:






    That is a lot of material. The "consort of Vajrasattva" is clearly functional as a type of hypostasis from Vajra Family into a sixth family; in other words, she is not simply stated to be oh so mighty, but resembles a tiny speck gathering momentum, until in Sarva Rahasya, there is an odd, separate Vajradhatvishvari at the navel, which cannot be her true form, either, but the necessary physical means of getting to her.

    In this case, Wisdom Library is not useful since these are not the advanced tantras; it does tell us Garvi is a sudharmāna god in Brahmanda Purana and that the word refers to Pride, which, I suppose, is like Desire; having a samsaric aspect which is objectionable, and a divine aspect which is important.

    It seems to me that Sattvavajri and Vajradhatvishvari are not a "thing", they are a flow. Neither one is a consort at first, then they sort of get blended together, and, eventually, split the difference between Vajrasattva and Vajradhara, which is miniscule, a bit like the difference between the Mind and the Winds, inseparable but not identical.

    The early mandalas appear to cast these Vajris and then Karmavajri manifests a result, emanates or changes the central deity; similarly, Maitri casts Vajradhatvishvari at the end, who washes or co-opts Vajrasattva; Namasangiti uses a method like this to replace Manjuvajra with each of the six mantra kings. It may be useful to work up each version in greater detail, a couple of tables being available to help quickly plot the correspondences. Lasya, et al, are used as inner offerings of substances, distinguished from the outer offerings of incense and the rest. It is such an Inner Offering that marks the break from rote Kriya--Charya into Yoga having symbols translated into experienced states of consciousness.

    The STTS idea is that they are Bodhisattvas, Vajris being the Mudras:

    Then, in order to seal the knowledge of each (Tathagata) family
    with a mudra, the four A/Wra-Masters (i.e. Sattvavajri,
    Ratnavajri, Dharmavajri and Karmavajri) should transform each of
    the four mudras abiding in each quarter. The four SecretOfferings, namely, Vajralasya, (Vajramala, Vajragita and
    Vajranrtya) are Pleasure in the Thought of Enlightenment, Garland
    of all the Tathagatas, Melody of all the Tathagatas and Drama of
    all the Tathagatas. Since these become the highest, they are placed
    as the form having the nature of the Great Goddess of the family.
    The four (External Offerings), namely, Vajradhupa, (Vajrapuspa,
    Vajraloka and Vajragandha) are Very Purifying, the Flower of the
    Qualities of Enlightenment, the Lamp of Knowledge and the Scent
    of Moral Conduct. The four Guardians (i.e. Vajrankusa,
    Vajrapasa, Vajrasphota and Vajravesa) are Heart, Affection
    toward Living Beings, Exertion of Teaching and Perfection of
    Wisdom.”

    It is trying to build Vajravesa, the "yoga with Vajrasattva" or "union with a deity such as Sattvavajri".

    They have roles similar to Paramadya goddesses.

    It turns out that there is a Guhyavajra Vajradhatu, female counterpart of Vajradhatu:

    The images of these female deities are shown in the Vajradhatu Guhyadharanlmandala of the Gobushinkan, which contains the female images of thirty-four deities in total, i.e., Vairocana (though Vajradhatvisvari is the counterpart of Vairocana) and the thirty-three female deities excluding the four Internal Offerings described in the Sanskrit STTS.

    Something similar to this is displayed at Alchi.

    Amoghavajra and Anandagarbha name this mandala, which constitutes the supreme samayamudra and focuses on the Mind of Vairocana, Dharanlmandala (of the
    Vajradhatu). The thirty-seven female deities manifested by the samadhi, who
    symbolise the minds of the deities of the Vajradhatu Mahdmandala, are shown as
    symbols in the Vajraguhya Vajramandala of the STTS and in the Samaya
    Assembly of the Nine Assemblies Mandala.

    sneaky females:

    It is evident that the Vajradhatu in this context indicates the symbol of Vairocana because it is called Vajradhatvlsvari (Queen of the Vajradhatu) according to the Vajraguhya Vajramandala.

    There are also related rites involving the bhaga of a consort, and the metamorphosis of a Wish-fulfilling Jewel passed between the Vajris. They bring in Vajrahumkara for some of their deeds.


    From a note, Princess Bhrikuti is fully named Balzah-Lha-Ching-Khri-Tsun, or Dichu.

    I am not sure how close the presence of Tsun makes her to Cunda. As we have seen, Bhrkuti or Lotus deity is Parasol, to whom Cunda appears more Vajrasattva-esque, and like a lower mirror.

    For Cunda, since we see the one lineage that reveres her magnificently appears to relate her to Sattvavajri, which is...a complex Vajrasattva evolution similar to what Parasol does...and evidently secretly run by Dharani goddesses...that makes a framework for both of them.

    Both at a Sutra level look like a blend of Buddha and Lotus Families, yet in the tantras, Vajra Family pertains to them. It has much to do with the Wrathful Ones and Vajrahumkara and the knowledge of proliferous "vajra" terminology in those Thirty-seven point Enlightenment tables.
    Last edited by shaberon; 18th January 2021 at 22:00.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Yes, the general sense of effort is apparent from what you write, but you seem to have no difficulty seeing things.
    I didn't have trouble seeing things before. I spent most of my career visualizing things, because I do geometry, including at times fractal geometry or geometry in high or infinite dimensions.

    "It's just impossible, said Alice, "I just can't believe in impossible things."

    "I dare say you haven't had much practice," said the Queen, "Why, when I was your age I had to believe in six impossible things before breakfast."

    (Charles Ludwig Dodgson, mathematician. a.k.a. Lewis Carroll)

    As an example, there are these things called Julia sets, named after Gaston Julia. They're fractals, like this:



    Here is the thing to visualize: Each part of the boundary of this set is shared with every other part of the boundary. And on top of that, you can find a replica of the boundary of every Julia set possible, somewhere in the boundary (the part that everybody shows pictures of) of the Mandelbrot set.

    Quote On the other hand, due to tantric yoga, I have induced states that caused some kind of power flow of what were definitely visualizations but never exactly stable.
    This seems like it's far more important.

    Quote In Buddhist tantras these deities symbolize the essence or prajnarupa or
    svabhava of five Buddhas. It is strange to note that not a single
    sadhana is devoted to these live Prajnas. They appear only in
    Yab-yum position and they are not given any active function.
    The images of these deities are very rare. However a fine
    specimen of these five Prajnas can be found in the Swayambhu Caitya with the exception of Vajradhatveshvary.
    This doesn't make much sense to me. The wisdom Dakinis, who is whom I think you are talking about by the 5 Prajnas, seem to have been talked about all the time, but maybe that's a false impression I get from the fact that so many web pages are devoted to them, and so many taxonomies as to which one is what place and what color, etc.

    When the Dakinis first started visiting, I had thought they were going to fall neatly into these 5, since they were initially one of each color. That sort of didn't happen entirely, or at least they didn't hold to it, but they still have that aura of being of 5 colors and representing all things that way. I found site after site definitively discussing them, I later came to realize many were more New Age than accurate. And the Dakinis that appear to me do not fit neatly into their descriptions on those websites, but neither do anything else it seems, I did find out that the rainbow color scheme for the chakras was a Western invention and had no basis in the East.

    Quote From 5-fold mountain-peak in China, Flawless Kinsman Vimala
    I looked this one up, and got Wuxing Shan (literally five-fold mountain), it is where Xuanzang is supposed to have left for India from (where he recruited the Monkey, etc.) but the picture shown on the web page for it is of a mountain in Central China, and there was supposed to be something about the other mountains (Tianshan or the Kunlun mtns.). Or maybe "5-fold" is wrong and it is Wutai Shan.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Their original grouping appears to be:

    the four Paramitas, i.e. Sattvavajri, Ratnavajri,
    Dharmavajri and Karmavajri, the four Internal Offerings (fluids), i.e. Vajralasya,
    Vajramala, Vajragita and Vajranrtya
    This is something new to me, having 'vajri' at the end, as the thing being modified, instead of 'vajra' at the beginning.

    Quote According to Sakyamitra, the Symbol-consorts refer to the four Paramitas, i.e. Sattvavajri symbolising ‘perfection of knowledge (jnana)’, Ratnavajri ‘perfection of generosity {dana)', Dharmavajri symbolising ‘perfection of wisdom (prajna)', and Karmavajri symbolising ‘perfection of exertion (virya).
    Are there two more deity-consort pairs somewhere for the other Paramitas?

    Quote It seems to me that Sattvavajri and Vajradhatvishvari are not a "thing", they are a flow. Neither one is a consort at first, then they sort of get blended together, and, eventually, split the difference between Vajrasattva and Vajradhara, which is miniscule, a bit like the difference between the Mind and the Winds, inseparable but not identical.
    I guess I'm not understanding how Vajradhara is corporeal and has a consort. I had thought that Vajradhara did not exist in corporeal form.

    From a note, Princess Bhrikuti is fully named Balzah-Lha-Ching-Khri-Tsun, or Dichu.

    Quote I am not sure how close the presence of Tsun makes her to Cunda. As we have seen, Bhrkuti or Lotus deity is Parasol, to whom Cunda appears more Vajrasattva-esque, and like a lower mirror.

    For Cunda, since we see the one lineage that reveres her magnificently appears to relate her to Sattvavajri, which is...a complex Vajrasattva evolution similar to what Parasol does...and evidently secretly run by Dharani goddesses...that makes a framework for both of them.
    Because Cun -> Tsun. I don't understand what you mean by Vajrasattva-esque.

    I got pressured to "Act!" again last night, some of the pressure apparently coming from me (who found myself repeating that word as if it were a mantra or something).

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    My expectation was correct that the Nepalese Sarvadurgati Parishodana would yield perhaps a richer presentation of Sattvavajri, who comes up eleven times and does seem to work like a thread in a labyrinth.

    In this older literature, what we call Lotus Family was called Dharma Family, by the classification "Sound of Dharma Speech", which is still the underlying stratum of Lotus Family, just not obvious from the name.

    We could try to compare it to the fewer mentions in the English version, but, when I take it this way, it seems to make an elegant synopsis.

    These are Bodhisattvas. And so for example, all the various actions of Vajrasattva are at a Bodhisattva level, and then if the Bodhisattva process is successful, he realizes the Prajna or Ishvari who is Divine Wisdom. So if we ask a question like, is Pandara the same as Dharmavajri, it is like a conditional yes and no, because they are not on the same plane, but they do bear a direct relationship. If we thought of Bhrkuti as Dharmavajri, that would be much closer.

    If we are thinking of Cunda as Sattvavajri, that is because Manjuvajra strongly suggests there is a Dharani basis that would operate these Vajris if you can find it in inner meaning. In that case, there are a bunch of details that would satisfy the lack of any independent development of Cunda outside of--you can't really say this tantra, but, this role, Sattvavajri, which in a sense is the manifestation of a consort for Vajrasattva, except it is not an image, it is the procedure of establishment.

    The instances of Sattvavajri are gathered into clusters in different areas of the tantra dealing with Peaceful and Wrathful mandalas.

    The use of "mudra" is proliferous here, usually referring to hand gestures, while teaching the basics of Mudras of the tantric seals of deity initiations.

    In her first section, she appears to develop Avesa Mudra by taking bits of Vajrasattva mantra and compress it into the power of Vajra Fist and then do some mantras I can practically remember from listening to the Dharani months ago:


    (14)



    tata oṃ
    vajrañjalīti| vajrabandhanaṃ hṛdaye sphoṭayet|

    oṃ
    sarvavid vajrabandha trāṭ bruvan|

    vajrāveśamudrāṃ
    baddhvā|

    oṃ tiṣṭha
    vajra dṛḍho me bhava śāśvato me bhava hṛdayaṃ

    me'dhitiṣṭha
    sarvasiddhiṃ ca me prayaccha huṃ ha ha ha ha hoḥ| iti|

    oṃ vajramuṣṭi
    vaṃ|

    sattvavajrīṃ
    baddhvā|

    oṃ sarvavit
    śodhane śodhane sarvapāpān apanaya huṃ|

    pāpākarṣaṇamantraḥ|


    vajrabandhaṃ
    dṛdhaṃ baddhvā vajramudrādhiṣṭhāntarāt|

    samutkṣipet
    kṣaṇāḍ ūrdhvaṃ patitotkṣepaṇaṃ param| iti|

    oṃ
    sarvavit sarvāpāyaviśodhani huṃ phaṭ|

    pāpaviśodhanamantraḥ|

    vajrabandhaṃ
    dṛdhīkṛtya madhyamā mukhasahitā||


    The sound of the next phrase, Four Antyas, suggests to me the upper layers of Kama Loka, the Four Formless Janas:


    caturantyamukhāsaktā
    pāpaṃ sphoṭayati kṣaṇāt||

    oṃ
    sarvavit trāṭ huṃ|



    She comes again and then Buddha appears, and you cultivate his Atma Bhava:

    sattvavajrīṃ
    baddhvā|

    oṃ
    sarvavit sarvāvaraṇaviśodhane muḥ huṃ phaṭ|

    uddharaṇalakṣaṇaṃ|

    tataḥ
    paścād yogino hṛdayamadhye'kāreṇa candramaṇḍalaṃ tasyopari|

    oṃ mune
    mune mahāmunaye svāhā|

    oṃ namaḥ
    sarvadurgatipariśodhanarājāya tathāgatāyārhate samyaksambuddhāya| tadyathā|

    oṃ śodhane
    śodhane sarvapāpaviśodhani śuddhe viśuddhe sarvakarmāvaraṇaviśuddhe svāhā|

    etena
    mantreṇa durgatipariśodhanamaṇḍalaṃ pariniṣpannaṃ bhavati| tato vajrāṅkuśadyair
    ākṛṣya praveśya baddhvā vaśīkṛtyākāśamaṇḍalapūjāṃ kṛtvā hṛdayamaṇḍale niveṣayet|
    dvayamaṇḍale naikamaṇḍalaṃ bhavatīti| niṣpannayogo bhūtvā samayamaṇḍalaṃ
    devatāparipūrṇaṃ bhavati| tatra maṇḍalamadhye cakravartirūpaṃ

    ātmabhāvaṃ
    śākyasiṃhaṃ vibhāvayet| tataḥ śākyamuner hṛdyakāreṇa candramaṇḍalaṃ bhāvayet|
    candramaṇḍalamadhye|




    Atma Bhava Sakyasimha Vibhava (Nirvana-like meditation). Then he has a Moon Disk in his Heart.



    In the next chapter, Karma Mudra relates to Vajra Hetu, i. e. Vajra Cause, which immediately brings to mind the Hetu--Phala or Path and Fruit tradition, which is the underlying meaning of the name, Hevajra, Hetu Vajra.

    (15)



    oṃ mune
    mune mahāmunaye svāhā|

    tato
    vajrahetukarmamudrayā maṇḍalaṃ nirmāya|

    oṃ
    sarvavid vajracakra huṃ| iti|

    sattvavajrīṃ
    baddhvaiva madhyāṅgulidvayena mālām ādāya manasā praviśet| samaye huṃ ity anena
    tāṃ ca mālāṃ svaśirasi kṣipet| anena praticcha vajra hoḥ| iti| tataḥ svaśirasi
    bandhed anena|

    oṃ pratigṛhṇa
    tvam imāṃ sattva mahābaleti||

    mukhabandhaṃ
    cānena muñcet|

    oṃ
    vajrasattvaḥ svayaṃ te'dya cakṣūdghāṭanatatparaḥ||

    udghāṭayati
    sarvākṣo vajracakṣur anuttaram|| iti|

    he vajra
    paśya| iti|


    We usually see Vajra Pasa all the time, but this is He Vajra

    Pāśyā (पाश्या).—f.

    (-śyā) A number of nooses. E. pāśa, and yat aff.

    i. e., a Net.

    And what it appears to do is draw in Buddha, who relies on the fullness of Sattvavajri and what looks like the attainment of Vajra Fist to begin an Omniscient Vajra Initiation rooted in Mam, which then begins a new, similar process with Vajradhatvishvari and a set of Vajris without Sattva, instead beginning with the quixotical Vajravarini:

    tato
    mahāmaṇḍale tāvat paśyed yāvad bhagavantaṃ śākyamunim|

    punaḥ
    sattvavajrīṃ baddhvā hṛdaye muṅcet| vajrādhiṣṭitakalaśād udakābhiṣekaṃ vajramuṣṭyā
    dadyāt|

    oṃ sarvavid
    vajrābhiṣiñca mām| iti|

    punar
    vajradhātvīśvaryādimudrayābhimudrayet|

    oṃ
    sarvavid vajradhātvīśvari huṃ abhiṣiñca mām|

    oṃ
    sarvavid vajravajriṇi huṃ abhiṣiñca mām|

    oṃ
    sarvavid ratnavajriṇi huṃ abhiṣiñca mām|

    oṃ
    sarvavid dharmavajriṇi huṃ abhiṣiñca mām|

    oṃ
    sarvavit karmavajriṇi huṃ abhiṣiñca mām|

    oṃ ṭūṃ ṭūṃ
    ṭūṃ vajra tuṣya hoḥ|

    dvyakṣarakavacena
    kavacayitvā| tataḥ svavajrābhiṣekṃ gṛhṇiyāt|

    adyābhiṣiktas
    tvam asi buddhair vajrābhiṣekataḥ||


    So that is a little different than Maitri's Pancakara, which casts four and then Vajradhatvishvari.

    It is followed by what looks like Vajra Name Initiation which ends by defining an Atma mantra as the Omniscient Vajra one:


    idam tat
    sarvabuddhatvaṃ gṛhṇa vajrasusiddhaye||

    oṃ vajrādhipati
    tvām abhiṣiñcāmi tiṣṭha vajrasamayas tvaṃ

    vajranāmābhiṣekataḥ|

    oṃ
    vajrasattva tvām abhiṣiñcāmi|

    idaṃ tat
    sarvabuddhatvaṃ vajrasattvakare sthitam||

    tvayāpi hi
    sadā dhāryaṃ vajrapāṇidṛḍhavratam||

    oṃ
    sarvatathāgatasiddhivajrasamaya tiṣṭhaiṣa tvāṃ dhārayāmi vajrasattva hi hi hi
    hi huṃ| iti|

    oṃ
    sarvavid vajrādhiṣṭhānasamaye huṃ|

    ātmādhiṣṭhānamantraḥ|



    Further along, the male Vajrosnisa enjoys use of Vajrinis followed by instructions to do Lasya Puja:

    ato vajroṣṇīṣāditathāgataiḥ
    sattvavajrīratnavajrīdharmavajrīkarmavajrīṃ sphārayitvā samāṇḍaleyadevatāśrīśākyarājapramukhavajrāveśaparyantam

    abhiṣekaṃ
    dadyāt|

    pañcabhiṣekādhipatidaśaparyantaṃ
    dadyāt| abhiṣekānantaram|

    oṃ
    sarvatathāgatadhūpapūjāmeghasamudraspharaṇasamaye huṃ|

    oṃ
    sarvatathāgatapuṣpapūjāmeghasamudraspharaṇasamaye huṃ|

    oṃ
    sarvatathāgatadīpapūjāmeghasamudraspharaṇasamaye huṃ|

    oṃ
    sarvatathāgatagandhapūjāmeghasamudraspharaṇasamaye huṃ|



    tato
    lāsyādicatuṣṭayena pūjayet|



    The subject or scene changes; later on, then there are a few examples in the Wrathful area near Sumbha Nisumbha.

    It appears that Vajrahumkara is equated to Vajrasattva and Sattvavari:

    sagarvotkarṣaṇaṃ

    dvābhyāṃ
    vajrahuṃkāravajrasattvasattvavajrīṇāṃ|

    aṃkuśagrahaṇasaṃsthitā
    vāṇaghaṭanayogā ca||

    sādhukāraṃ
    hṛdi sthitā abhiṣekaṃ dvivajraṃ tu||


    A Jeweled Hum becomes a Wrathful Vajrabhrkuti:


    ratnahuṃkāravajrabhṛkuṭikrodharatnavajrīṇām||

    hṛdi
    sūryapradarśanaṃ vāmasthabāhudaṇḍā ca||

    tathāsya
    parivartitā savyāpasavyavikoca||


    Or the meaning is perhaps as if this means "The Sound of Dharma becomes Vajradharma with Dharmavajri":

    dharmahuṃkāravajradharmadharmavajrīṇām||

    hṛdvāmā
    khaḍgadhāriṇī alātacakrabhramitā||

    vajradvayamukhoṭṭhitā
    vajranṛtyabhramonmuktā||

    kapotoṣṇīṣasaṃsthitā||
    karmahuṃkāravajrakarmakarmavajrīṇāṃ,

    kavacakaniṣṭhādaṃṣṭrāgrā
    muṣṭidvayanipīḍitā||


    It appears to mean that section was the Prayoga of Vajragarvi:

    vajragarvaprayogeṇa
    named āśayakampitaiḥ||



    And lastly around section 85, Agni Homa is related to Avesa, which looks equivalent to Vajrasattva gaining Sattvavajri in Wrathful mode:

    samidbhir
    madhurair agniṃ prajvālya susamāhitaḥ||


    tato homakuṇḍān
    nirgatya jvālākulair vajrais tasya śarīre pāpaṃ dahyamānaṃ cintayet| tataḥ
    punar vajrāveśaṃ tathaivaṃ baddhvāveśayet| niyatam āviśati| evam api yasyāveśo na
    bhavati tasyābhiṣekaṃ na kuryād iti| āviṣṭasya ca pañcabhijñādiniṣpattis tat kṣaṇād
    eva bhavati| tataḥ samāviṣṭaṃ jñātvā punaḥ| oṃ vajrasattvasattvasaṃgrahādigītim
    uccārya| krodhamuṣṭyā tathaiva sattvavajrīmudraṃ sphoṭayet| sa ced āviṣṭo
    vajrasattvakrodhamudrāṃ

    badhnīyāt|



    Here, without really being able to read all the narrative, we can still find a configuration based around Sattvavajri.

    Vajra Name is usually the third initiation and used for the third Abhisambodhi, I believe. It has many Udaka (Water) and Kalasa initiations; otherwise, "initiation" is a frequent term, but Name and Vase are familiar to tantrists. Here, there is also a Fivefold initiation regulated by the Vajris and the Dancers, which gets forwarded along to:

    bhagavantaṃ vairocanaṃ bhadrakalpikaṃ bāhyavajrakulāni ca vajraratnābhiṣekenābhiṣiñcya|
    śrīvajrahuṃkārādīn pañcabuddhamukuṭavajramālāpaṭābhiḥṣekair abhiṣiñcet|

    Vajra Ratna is again similar to Vajra Surya--Secret Sun and Vajra Tara, and, I would say, Rainbow Guru.

    Sarvadurgati Parishodana is like a vital middle portion, which does not, itself, appear to deal with all the Abhisambodhis or all the Initiations--but it does inculcate the rotation of a Cycle, Sattvavajri to Karmavajri--which is capable of purifying the Bardo Consciousness.

    Vajra Dhatu is some kind of subtle mental element which is similar to Vijnana Dhatu and a Six Family Wheel. Such things are usually defined in Coarse, Subtle, Very Subtle, and sometimes Secret or Profound levels, generally meaning you have to complete a ring in each.

    The point of Namasangiti is making it arise as Maha Vajradhatu. Sarvadurgati has already mentioned the Queen, and it also next refers to her material or veil or element.

    Now knowing that Ah can be trained as a rush of Vajrasattva pinned to the Fivefold Element, more basically in this Yoga level of tantra, Vairocana is the Fivefold Rupa Skandha--and now, a Sixth Element or Vajra Tathagata is his Atman which is in Avesa--Possession of him:

    tanmantreṇa aḥkārāntena
    vairocanasthāne tathāgatavajram ātmānam āveśayet| vajro'ham iti vajrāhaṃkāraṃ
    vibhāvya| tad vajraṃ vairocanaṃ bhāvayet| vajradhātur aham iti| evaṃ yāvad
    vajraveśamahāmudrāṃ baddhvottaradvāre tanmantreṇāḥkārāntena vajrāghaṇṭām
    ātmānam āveśayet|

    And so in this condition, "that" Element is the Vajra Dhatu. Evam, thus Vajra Avesa Maha Mudra evolves into Bell--Vajra Ghanta Atma taking Possession of it.



    This chapter I am not sure if it is talking about anyone other than Bhrkuti:

    (69 )



    tarjanīdvayaṃ
    vajraṃ tu dakṣiṇāṃkucitāṃkuśī||

    tathaivāgrastahuṃkārāḥ
    sādhukārās tathaiva hi||

    dvyagrasaṃsthā
    bhṛkuṭyāṃ tu hṛdi suryāgramaṇḍalā||

    prasāritabhujā
    mūrdhni tarjanī mukhahāsinī||

    tarjanī
    nakhasaṃsaktā kośamuṣṭis tu dakṣiṇā||

    samamadhyaguṇṭhacakrā
    tu mukhataḥ pratiniḥṣṛtā||

    tarjanīmadhye
    vajrā tu grīvāveṣṭitatarjanī||

    agrādikamahādaṃṣṭrā
    grastāgrāvajramuṣṭitā|| iti|

    lāsyādīnāṃ
    tu vajradhātu uktā eva huṃkṛtā|


    Lasya and others--the Vajradhatu is spoken by you...


    In this tantra, Vajradhatvishvari looks to have something to do with Vairocana getting Possessed by Akshobya, like a pentagram in a hexagram. That makes complete sense to me and comes up as a perpetual theme in most higher tantras.

    Just because it does not teach or deal with everything Vajradhatvishvari can do, does not place it in conflict with those materials, such as Achi and Vajrayogini, that explain more.

    It does appear geared to shift one into Akshobya-class tantras. By promoting Lasya as the primary Inner Offering, it segues to the consort of Seven Syllable deity.

    In NSP, Bhattacharya suspiciously fails to include the Vajris. In the Nepalese version, it still has the Usnisas.

    Exactly why Usnisa Vijaya is the Dharani related to this tantra when she is not anywhere in it, is similar to why Cunda may be Sattvavajri even if only by way of apparent association in another tantra.



    The Guhyagarbha use of Vajrasattva is such that Wathful Deities are the Brain, and Peaceful Deities are the Heart:







    There are very many "Vajrasattva with consort"s--this one is particularly instructive with Nagaraja and Parnasabari:








    Much as the Drikung are currently disseminating Achi with Parnasabari, this is like the older Sutra tradition of the same thing, Bodhisattva Nagaraja being the one who puts the finishing move on Generation Stage, indicated by Parnasabari and Janguli in Krsna Yamari tantra, as well as by Amoghasiddhi also gaining a Serpent Hood.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    I didn't have trouble seeing things before. I spent most of my career visualizing things, because I do geometry, including at times fractal geometry or geometry in high or infinite dimensions.
    I think in geometrical ways such as the kata of martial arts, or, it is how I remember directions rather than street names and landmarks. Less mathematically artistic and closer to the holographic physics of the environment.

    Yours sounds like something that could be called eye of the artist cross higher mathematics.


    Quote On the other hand, due to tantric yoga, I have induced states that caused some kind of power flow of what were definitely visualizations but never exactly stable.


    This seems like it's far more important.
    I would say it has a natural appeal, is definitely interesting, Dharma Pravicaya.

    But then I might say Auric Sight of a relatively purified person, let alone an Arhat or Bodhisattva, may be more interesting.

    Overall I would say there are various Spheres of Light Phenomena which are all part of nature and should be investigated, Dharma Pravicaya.

    The extent of my inner eye now is that occasionally if I press myself hard I can work myself into something that is not quite hypnagogia and see a marvelous shine which spews out mostly random shapes and forms--fractal-ish in the way it expands, but not repeating the same function anywhere. Part of it might make silver boxes and pagodas, and another fling out yellow streamers, and so on.

    I take it as a form of impure luminosity, i. e. all the strange vibrations are caused by uncontrolled imprints of habit-energy, rather than by something orderly like a mantra, which should impress it with something like standing waveforms.

    When you do Manasa Japa you get a ghost image of the muscles in your tongue and so forth still saying it. It takes a while to shed the attachment.

    The intent is that Manasa Japa should trigger certain responses, and so if Ganapati can easily prove that I do not have what it takes to even come up with his color, at the rate I am going I will Mutter him a year or more before anything happens. If I do more and add more Sumukhi, then it would probably kick in sooner.

    Again I am mainly talking about environmental light and I have never really seen chakras, pathways, etc.



    Quote In Buddhist tantras these deities symbolize the essence or prajnarupa or
    svabhava of five Buddhas. It is strange to note that not a single
    sadhana is devoted to these live Prajnas. They appear only in
    Yab-yum position and they are not given any active function.
    The images of these deities are very rare. However a fine
    specimen of these five Prajnas can be found in the Swayambhu Caitya with the exception of Vajradhatveshvary.


    This doesn't make much sense to me. The wisdom Dakinis, who is whom I think you are talking about by the 5 Prajnas, seem to have been talked about all the time, but maybe that's a false impression I get from the fact that so many web pages are devoted to them, and so many taxonomies as to which one is what place and what color, etc.
    No the Dakinis are not Prajnas.

    They are an Activity.

    Mayavi Rupa is the highest body; Prajnas are above that.

    This very succinct page on Rainbow Body gives three kinds: the common one projected at death, the rare one arisen in life, and Transference or Rainbow Guru. It is jivanmukti, or gyu lu.

    Mayavi Rupa is the self-arisen White Heruka which can be identified by any other yogin who has the Heruka Yoga. It is made of Vajradhatvishvari. It is gyu lu. Same as above! Also, Subtle Body.

    "The purpose of illusory body yoga is mentioned, to realize the subtlest mind of clear light. This clear light mind is not considered illusory.

    The illusory body is always called illusory (impermanent) because it is to be distinguished from vajra (permanent) body.


    The clear light is the vajra body.


    When the pure illusory body recognizes the primordially pure vajra body, there is the possibility one can realize a permanent form body, called "samboghakaya buddha," "body of light," etc.

    All of this is very buddhism specific. It is called clear light, but it is not light.


    It is a metaphor for pure consciousness.


    The permanent form body fits the description of a body of divine light, but it is incorrect to say that it is created or generated. It is one's own primordial reality, seen correctly when the confused projections are finally ungrasped.


    The vajra body is what is shared by all beings and is not a mere expedient means. It is what you are referring to as Brahman. The presence of the prana, nadi and bindu are also called the vajra body in terms of the relative.


    There is a distinction to be made between Brahman and Tathagatagharba. Depending on the tradition, Brahman is said to be "nirguna," without qualities and attribute-less.

    A smaller group of traditions speak of Brahman as being endowed with all auspicious qualities.

    In Buddhism, the Tathagatagharba is said to be endowed with limitless qualities including the 32 major and minor marks of a fully enlightened Buddha."

    Rainbow Guru:








    The difference is perhaps that Illusory Body refers to the Krama, method and practice of development, and Rainbow Body only refers to the purified result.




    As the vagina of Vajrayogini, it is said that it is really only the womb and ovaries which are Kamarupa Pitha of Assam. The Vagina and Cervix Pitha is Guhyeshvari which is a spring and the Root of Swayambhu, with the Root subsequently being Nairatma, so the most common name is Guhyeshvari Nairatma.

    She initiated Manjushri into Chakrasamvara--Vajrayogini at an unknown time.

    Nepalese Sangha means Dipankara plus the Seven Historical Buddhas, most of whom visited Swayambhu.




    Quote And the Dakinis that appear to me do not fit neatly into their descriptions on those websites, but neither do anything else it seems, I did find out that the rainbow color scheme for the chakras was a Western invention and had no basis in the East.
    I believe it is Sanmat or Sikh Yoga.

    We can find something in Krishna Yajur Veda which expresses seven elements as seven sounds and seven double colors, but, even here, the colors are not completely identical to the rainbow spectrum.


    Quote From 5-fold mountain-peak in China, Flawless Kinsman Vimala
    I looked this one up, and got Wuxing Shan (literally five-fold mountain), it is where Xuanzang is supposed to have left for India from (where he recruited the Monkey, etc.) but the picture shown on the web page for it is of a mountain in Central China, and there was supposed to be something about the other mountains (Tianshan or the Kunlun mtns.). Or maybe "5-fold" is wrong and it is Wutai Shan.
    Usnisa Vijaya Dharani is associated with Wu Tai Shan and, by listening, I get the sense of Vajra Kaya and Amrta Vacana as an important backbone of it, otherwise sounding similar to some of the Sarvadurgati mantras.

    Yes "Five Peak Mountain" could be Kinchenjunga, or others in China or a few other places, but the one at the Mongolian frontier is the one meant.
    Last edited by shaberon; 19th January 2021 at 14:05.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    In poking through the Rainbow Body stuff, I saw that one experienced practitioner posted that Rainbow Body at death is displayed by someone about once every five years. He also says there are jivanmuktas, that there are rare, but multiple, living Lamas on whom you can see the manifestation and that it can occasionally even be photographed.


    I was curious about the "Vajri" goddesses; it looks like they arise in the lower tantras, and then are tapered off, or, rather, replaced by names that are more individualized.

    We have gotten accustomed to the term "vajra" appearing after a name to mean "Object" such as:

    Rasa Vajra--Taste Object

    But coming from STTS, we see "vajri" after names, which does not refer to objects, but to Seals or Mudras, such as:

    Dharmavajri

    is really a process which, so to speak, composes a magical prestidigitation aimed at improving the bond and quality of Lotus Family.

    And it sounds a but like "vajrini" from Pratisara's mantra.

    G. Buhnemann cites Sakta's Srividyarnava Tantra as collecting all kinds of mantras, and uses a Buddhist group, that is, it personally identifies the group as Buddhist:

    Padmavati, Ugra Tara, Ekajati, Tara, Nilasarasvati, Matangi, Sumukhi, and Candamatangi.

    SVT says that Tara's mantra came from Gandharva Tantra, although it cannot currently be found there.

    She says SVT also copies Pancha Raksa's manidhari vajrini mantra, and that it means "bearing a pearl necklace" and "holding a vajra". But the title does not seem to be anything other than a proper name, such as:

    Vajriṇī (वज्रिणी) is an epithet of Kālī but used to invoke the goddess Durgā in her warrior mode during tantric rituals.

    The more generic Vajri may mean Indrani, a type of Euphoria, or feminine vajra.



    Buhnemann uses an image of Panjara Pratisara, which is different from the familiar one and involves her as a solo deity. It would be more accurate to say Nepalese Buddhists practice Kriya Tantra using volumes of Pancha Raksa texts. Not many make it to Panjara.

    Panjara is the likely source for this weird Pratisara who emerges from the third eye of Pratyangira and does a strange Nyasa using Vajradaka, Ekajati, and others.

    The Vajris continue in their STTS format in only one place in Sadhanamala, and, otherwise, are transferred into something more like the Rati goddesses in Guhyasamaja, e. g. Moharati, etc.

    In Sadhanamala, Nairatma uses four Vajris for her Nyasa, lacking Matsarya. Namasangiti Manjushri has four (Sattva, Ratna, Padma, Karma). Vajra Tara 110 has:

    mohavajrāṃ nyasen netre dveṣavajrāṃ ca karṇataḥ /
    īrṣyāvajrāṃ tathā ghrāṇe vaktre tu rāgavajrikām //
    saparśe mātsaryavajrāṃ vai sarvakleśatamo 'pahām /
    āyataneṣu vijñeyā hṛdyā nairātmyayoginī //

    and re-iterates them with Irsya either missing or called Sarva Vajri. Or, it seems to be using "vajra" indiscriminately with one vajri.

    Buddhism separates Irsya from Matsarya (Lobha or avarice) according to that.


    The weird Pancha Raksa 206 has:

    pūjāstutyamṛtāsvādapūrvvakaṃ bhāvayet vicakṣaṇaḥ - cakṣuṣormohavajrī
    mahāpratisarā, śrotrayor dveṣavajrī mahāsāhasrapramarddanī, ghrāṇe
    mātsaryyavajrī mahāmāyūrī, vaktre rāgavajrī mahāmantrānu-
    sāriṇī, spharśe īrṣyāvajrī mahāsitvatī / evaṃ rūpavedanā-
    saṃjñāsaṃskāraviññānaskandhadhātvāyatanasvabhāvā evaṃ devatā-
    viśuddhito jñātavyā viśeṣataḥ /

    and makes a stray mention of Karmavajri.

    Here, they are not conflated with "vajra--object", nor are they vajrinis as if Pratisara were apportioning her mantra.

    Vajris of the Families have become personally identified with the Raksa Dharani goddesses on the body and the Five Skandhas there.

    Varahi 226 has Guhya Vajrini.

    That is about all they have--but the consistent thing is Vajribhava Mahasamaya Sattva Ah, which is Vajrasattva.

    The previous line in his mantra had said "give me the Vajra state of the Tathagatas", but, at the end, it is Vajrasattva's own nature which is dependent on Vajris.

    Although Abhisekha means "initiation" generally, Abhisinca specifically means consecration by sprinkling.

    According to Longsal:

    VAJRIBHAVA.: Make me a Vajra holder

    If Vajrasattva represents the First Bhumi, the mantra for that is:

    Ground (bhumim): Om medini vajribhava vajrabandha hum.

    Vajribhava is actually a specific initiation in Zhije, via Nine Vajrachandalis. The elixir goddesses are crowned with a thousand Buddhas until excess water rises up and they become crowned with Akshobya.

    Black Jambhala does Vajribhava with the Five Tathagatas pouring nectar into your head until it overflows and the head is adorned with Ratnasambhava.

    Hevajra uses the Five Tathagatas and the Nectar consecrates the centers, possibly intending the Four Joys, before overflowing and Akshobya does some crowning. A longer form applies it to each Tathagata individually.

    Vajra Samaya = Vajribhava Abhisinca

    When Kurukulla does it, the Gauris appear. That one is very direct and succinct, beautiful piece where she does this and then uses Inverted Stupa.

    If we follow Marici, it will open Samaya to Vajradakini.

    I think we are in a position to say that the Vajris and Vajribhava mean a lot to Vajrasattva increasing his abilities and using Nectar.

    With these practices, almost anyone can make a refreshing, purifying Nectar, which is not the same one as defined by Kurukulla, she has the Blissful tantric one. That is a great sadhana because it is extremely definitive in a relatively short space. Kurukulla is mainly made of Hrih. If we follow the evolution of this syllable and mix it with the meaning of her sadhana, I don't see how she could resist.

    Dombini her consort embraces her. It says that. It makes slight remarks about the actual use of the Inverted Stupa. Deities drink through their "straws", and, it says the mantra rosary is the butter lamp rosary...

    About the only thing omitted from this sadhana is the production of Mercury. It takes you to that point but the result is "anything desired".

    The thing is extremely close to what I have set up in more perfuse detail with Guhyajnana Dakini and Ziro Bhusana Vajrayogini, more pervasive in having Varuni and Vairocani. It is like a central definition that would snap-fit to Chakrasamvara or to this Kurukulla, who is part of Hevajra.


    Ganapati Hrdaya shares an epithet with Vajrasattva: Pramodaya, similar to Pramudita.

    Pramodā (प्रमोदा) is the name of Vidyārājñī (i.e., “wisdom queen”) mentioned as attending the teachings in the 6th century Mañjuśrīmūlakalpa.

    Pramudita is also an epithet of Kubera.

    Sakta Pramoda includes Sumukhi in 108 Names of Cinnamasta in what looks to be the whole Elizabeth English book there.

    Similar to Joy, the First Joy, or the First Bhumi, Buddha in discovering a Path that was a modification of Samkhya did so because he remembered spontaneously having the First Dhyana as a child. Because it was happy, he decided the real Path must be in the Dhyanas.

    I was a little confused, and, it is the Four Formless Dhyanas which are the upper crust of Dakarnava Heruka's lowest layer. I was also confused as to whether they were anantya "endless" or ayatana "sense faculties" but from the relevant section in Abhidharma Kosa:

    36a. There are ten All-Encompassing Āyatanas (kṛtsnāyatanas). 36b. Eight are the absence of
    desire. 36c. They belong to the last Dhyāna. 36d. They have Kāmadhātu for their object. 36e. Two
    are pure ārūpya. 36f. They have the four skandhas of their sphere for their object.
    N/C: K36a: “They are called „all-encompassing‟ (krtsna) because they embrace their object in its totality and
    exclusively. They are ten in number: this is the totality of earth, water, fire, and wind; blue, yellow, red, and white; plus
    the uninterrupted ayatanas (anantyayatanas) of space and consciousness (the First and the Second Absorptions of
    Arupyadhatu).”

    [so they are Anantya and Ayatana]

    K36b: “The first eight are, by nature, the root of good which is absence of desirewith their concomitant dharmas, they
    are the five skandhas).”
    K36c: “They are realized by an ascetic in the Fourth Dhyana.”
    K36d: “They refer to the visible things (rupayatana) of Kamadhatu. However some think that the Fourth, the AllEncompassing Ayatana of Wind (vayukrtsnayatana) has for its object the tangible thing that is called the wind element
    (vayudhatu). Some think that the first four have tangible things for their object, while the last four have visible things for
    their object.”
    K36e: “The last two are pure absorptions of Arupyadhatu.”
    K36f: “Their objects are the four skandhas of the sphere to which they belong (the First and Second absorptions of
    Arupyadhatu).”
    “The Eight Dominant Ayatanas have the Eight Deliverances for their „entry‟ and the Ten All-Encompassing Ayatanas
    have the Eight Dominant Ayatanas for their entry: the following, in fact, are superior to the preceding ones. All these
    qualities can have the mental series of a Prthagjana or the mental series of an Aryan for their support, with the exception
    of the Deliverance of Extinction (nirodhavimoksa) which can only be produced by Aryans.”


    At the end, he specifies that removing oneself into permanently-still nirvana is non-Buddhist.

    The eighth Dhyana is Naivasamjnanasamjnayatana (or Bhavagra).
    Last edited by shaberon; 19th January 2021 at 23:53.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote I think in geometrical ways such as the kata of martial arts, or, it is how I remember directions rather than street names and landmarks. Less mathematically artistic and closer to the holographic physics of the environment.

    Yours sounds like something that could be called eye of the artist cross higher mathematics.
    When I was starting out with martial arts, there was an ideal called a gongfuren (in those days people didn't use pinyin, so then it would have been Kung-fu jen). Literally a man of gongfu, i.e. a man of mastery. One should know martial arts, "philosophy (including meditation), art, music, science and medicine. So I studied all of these, eventually. I had thought all that was to make one "well-rounded". Now I can realize it was to make one's mind more flexible.

    Quote The extent of my inner eye now is that occasionally if I press myself hard I can work myself into something that is not quite hypnagogia and see a marvelous shine which spews out mostly random shapes and forms--fractal-ish in the way it expands, but not repeating the same function anywhere. Part of it might make silver boxes and pagodas, and another fling out yellow streamers, and so on.
    I can pass on something I have learned about this: There is kind of a 'near' vision and a 'far' vision. I wrote them down in my notes that way but they need not be one near, one far. The near one is the vision you call up directly inside of you, which is what some of what you describe sounds like. It sometimes feels identical to the vision in dreams. The far one is crystal clear, like a very vivid memory, but it isn't a memory. I know they are separate because I was shown how to see both of them at the same time. The far one is the better one for seeing deities and visions and such. I don't know how you would practice using it, except to "remember" something you've never experienced with it.

    Quote This very succinct page on Rainbow Body gives three kinds: the common one projected at death, the rare one arisen in life, and Transference or Rainbow Guru. It is jivanmukti, or gyu lu.
    So I've had a little problem with the stylized depiction of rainbow body in the thangkas. The pictures on that page like the one with the lotus underneath, and the picture of Mandarava most of the way down the page. I understand the others, but they seem symbolic. Maybe someone will get very good at CGI and do a modern version. I see a body that is shimmering, and emitting light, but is also sort of clear like glass, but the glass has tints and hues of rainbows as well.

    Quote As the vagina of Vajrayogini, it is said that it is really only the womb and ovaries which are Kamarupa Pitha of Assam. The Vagina and Cervix Pitha is Guhyeshvari which is a spring and the Root of Swayambhu, with the Root subsequently being Nairatma, so the most common name is Guhyeshvari Nairatma.
    This is interesting.

    Quote I believe it is Sanmat or Sikh Yoga.
    Not sure what this is, Guru Nanak was dead set opposed to yoga.

    [QUOTE][Usnisa Vijaya Dharani is associated with Wu Tai Shan and, by listening, I get the sense of Vajra Kaya and Amrta Vacana as an important backbone of it, otherwise sounding similar to some of the Sarvadurgati mantras.

    Yes "Five Peak Mountain" could be Kinchenjunga, or others in China or a few other places, but the one at the Mongolian frontier is the one meant. /QUOTE]

    I would have thought so, too.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote She says SVT also copies Pancha Raksa's manidhari vajrini mantra, and that it means "bearing a pearl necklace" and "holding a vajra". But the title does not seem to be anything other than a proper name, such as:

    Vajriṇī (वज्रिणी) is an epithet of Kālī but used to invoke the goddess Durgā in her warrior mode during tantric rituals.

    The more generic Vajri may mean Indrani, a type of Euphoria, or feminine vajra.
    It has to be that Vajri is modified by the word before it. If one says (made up example) vajrachakra it means lightning or diamond wheel. If one said chakravajra it would have to mean the wheel-like vajra. Vajri is, as you say, 'feminine vajra' but exactly what is that? As opposed to shakti. This is very interesting, you know I had a long thing with lightning bodies, and this seems like it is them somehow, that would be one kind of 'feminine vajra'.

    Quote When Kurukulla does it, the Gauris appear. That one is very direct and succinct, beautiful piece where she does this and then uses Inverted Stupa.

    If we follow Marici, it will open Samaya to Vajradakini.

    I think we are in a position to say that the Vajris and Vajribhava mean a lot to Vajrasattva increasing his abilities and using Nectar.
    Interesting.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    the four Paramitas, i.e. Sattvavajri, Ratnavajri,
    Dharmavajri and Karmavajri, the four Internal Offerings (fluids), i.e. Vajralasya,
    Vajramala, Vajragita and Vajranrtya

    This is something new to me, having 'vajri' at the end, as the thing being modified, instead of 'vajra' at the beginning.

    According to Sakyamitra, the Symbol-consorts refer to the four Paramitas, i.e. Sattvavajri symbolising ‘perfection of knowledge (jnana)’, Ratnavajri ‘perfection of generosity {dana)', Dharmavajri symbolising ‘perfection of wisdom (prajna)', and Karmavajri symbolising ‘perfection of exertion (virya).


    Are there two more deity-consort pairs somewhere for the other Paramitas?
    This is sly.

    They just gave the Tenth Paramita first on Sattvavajri.

    Those Paramitas are not in order, they are certain roles, i. e. Virya--Karma--Activity....




    Quote I guess I'm not understanding how Vajradhara is corporeal and has a consort. I had thought that Vajradhara did not exist in corporeal form.
    Symbolic for Dharmakaya.

    Vajradhara Guru + enlightened use of the central wind = experience of Dharmakaya, so, in that way, he "has a consort", like the Spring Drop is "the Mahasiddhas' consort".

    Vajradhara is considered to emanate a Celestial Bodhisattva, i. e. into Akanistha.

    He may be considered by some to be an Outer Guru in the sense you could just pick up books about him and read those lines.

    I have never taken him as anything other than Unmanifest.

    He may have a consort sometimes, but is always about the most basic deity form there could be. It may be lavishly embellished, or, he may look poor, but, he also has a special Pandita role, Vimala Guru, with Siddharajni--Guhyajnana Dakini. That is the closest way I can describe the realm of his Bodhisattva. It can only be said to be gated by the Two Mountains of Vajrayogini which in practice are a very fine resolution of the energy-winds purifying the Seventh Principle, Addicted Mind.






    Quote I am not sure how close the presence of Tsun makes her to Cunda. As we have seen, Bhrkuti or Lotus deity is Parasol, to whom Cunda appears more Vajrasattva-esque, and like a lower mirror.
    No, it may be more like a title like Jetsun.

    Quote For Cunda, since we see the one lineage that reveres her magnificently appears to relate her to Sattvavajri, which is...a complex Vajrasattva evolution similar to what Parasol does...and evidently secretly run by Dharani goddesses...that makes a framework for both of them.


    Because Cun -> Tsun. I don't understand what you mean by Vajrasattva-esque.
    It is difficult because they are highly similar.

    Parasol is Bhrkuti and Padmavajri.

    Cunda is Sattvavajri.


    Parasol has an incredibly hypostatic path which is just hard to find due to the strewn material being hidden behind the popular use of her common mantras.

    Cunda has nothing like that, however, she would if taken as Sattvavajri, and we see how that bridges to an entire class of Bodhisattvas, which is not being discussed by anyone that I know of, or raised in the commentaries. Simply by evidence alone we are able to see the big picture of them.

    And so half of what we know about Dakini Jala is from Illustrated History of the Mandala, which does us the favor of a similar thing, since its chapters are organized by mandala classes. And so Kalachakra is seventh and so they are correct for separating it, since, it is its own system that is not really conversant with the rest and would be like making another translation.

    I am not versed in Sutra Buddhism since I am more like an Ngakpa and it looks more difficult to me. I can see how it would be part of an educational system, like everyone takes the entire Prajnaparamita Sutra in their Junior Year or something. Since we don't have that kind of formal background, if anyone were to ask me where I got it from, I would point to the Legend of Dipankara. If our Buddha generated Bodhi Mind then, and re-generated it in his lifetime by the First Dhyana, I think those are the same. If I can change my aura by a Dharani such as Parasol which came out of Buddha's mind telepathically, then, I think it homes in on Dipankara rather easily.


    In the tantras we have found a decided lack of Paramadya material, which has been described as fundamental, and, fortunately, Illustrated History deals with that. And its subject is Seventeen Deities, or, that is an important part of where mandala retinues come from.

    So by examining the table of contents, Chapter Three studies the topics:

    Prajnaparamita Sutra is a system of Eighteen Mandalas related to Vajrasekhara

    Seventeen Vishuddhi Padas are the seventeen deity mandala

    Vajrasattva is the center

    Paramadya Mandala


    Chapter Four goes on to Vajradhatu Mandala, which is what we mean by Vairocana Tantra since it goes on to Navosnisa Sarvadurgati Parishodana and Dharmadhatu Vagisvara.

    Chapter Five is Guhyasamaja and Maya Jala.



    Chapter Six is:

    Dakini Jala Samayoga

    Paramadya into Samayoga

    Hevajra

    Chakrasamvara


    And so Seventeen Deity Vajrasattva is the "representative" mandala of Prajnaparamita Sutra, with, they say, the main version being Parama Rahasya in the Mantrakhanda portion of the Chinese translation.

    This one is a basic male version which gets "spiced up" in Paramadya. Male gods are in the cardinal directions and females in the corners.

    The purifications are for instance, Rasa Vajra = Rasa Vishuddhi. We cannot see the page that gives the first five. In the mandala that was available, the Four Seasons goddesses were placed in the inner ring; usually they would be found outermost. The retinue as such and the Vishuddhipadas we can find are:

    Vajra Manodbhava, Vajra Kilikila, Vajra Nismara, Vajra Garva, followed by Madhuvajri (Bhusana), Vajra Megha (Aladhana), Sarada Vajra (Aloka), and Hemanta Vajra (Kayasukha).

    Rupa Vajra, Sabda Vajra, Gandha Vajra, Rasa Vajra, followed by Lasya (Dristi), Hasya (Rati), Gita (Trsta), and Nrrtya (Garva).


    Vishuddhi is the act of purifying defilements by applying deities to them.

    Amoghavajra's Vishuddhipadas match those in Anandagarbha's Paramadya commentary, so, the Chinese and Indian systems are the same to this point. The current oriental Four Bodhisattvas of Directions are still the same as given above.

    Paramadya replaces the outer ring with Four Buddhas as if centered on Vairocana, and Bodhisattvas.

    As far as the natures of the inner ring, I can only get "Vajramanodbhava, symbolizing desire, holds an arrow, the symbol of the god of love; Vajrakīlikīla, symbolizing touch, embraces ..."

    Alex Wayman has a long quote from Paramadya using Anuraga as the Method for executing the Four Seals.

    So the more static male-based mandalas are being converted into a way to do goddess initiations.


    Anandagarbha comments Paramadya about the subject of Inner Guru which he calls presiding deity:

    “One’s presiding deity is kamadeva. The
    conviction that his diamonds of body, speech, and mind are one’s own —
    with a praxis that it is really so — is the meaning of yoga. The “presiding
    deity” appears to mean the same as the “tutelary deity” (ista-devata), or
    the deity which the disciple serves with daily devotions and enshrines in
    the heart."

    Wayman is not completely correct, in that Inner Guru is not necessarily identical to Ihsta Devata. Inner Guru can make any Ishvar work and that is how he speaks, Vajradhara himself does not have forms, he enables something like a Thousand Arm Avalokiteshvar or Parasol to light up.

    Since Paramadya is a tantra, it has much, much more than the original basic mandala, and goes on to the Reality of the Hand Symbol (Vajra), and to the subject of Vajra in Lotus.

    When goddesses are present in the inner ring, they become able to confer the Diadem Initiation of the Four Families.

    It begins talking about the Tri-kaya or Three Vajras as mysteries. Something to personally experience. It is not praising Buddha for his perfections, or asking him to teach them, but to install it via Vajrasattva.

    Then, there are Four Goddesses since Vajrasattva is ordinarily male, but it also begins calling the same group Five Goddesses. In Hundred Syllable mantra, it asks Vajrasattva to bestow siddhis--and so that line is essentially what is being employed here:


    The great weapon of the great lord who has the supreme success
    (siddhi) that is great, is said to be the five-pronged thunderbolt
    which is the great reality of the five secrets.

    Anandagarbha’s extensive commentary on this verse (PTT. VoL 73,
    p. 127-5 to p. 130), starts by explaining that the “supreme success” is the
    siddhi of Sri-Vajrasattva (the glorious diamond being). The “great lord”
    is Mahavajradhara. The great reality of the five secrets amounts to the
    (1) bodhiucitta (mind of enlightenment), (2) understanding it, (3) its realiza-
    tion, (4) its non-abandonment, and (5) the knowledge characterized by
    attainment; and these are represented by five goddesses, who are “seals”
    (mudra) arising from the Body, Speech, and Mind diamonds (vajra) of
    Mahavajradhara. Observe that the source is again the “three mysteries of
    the Buddha.”


    And so if Vajrasattva is questionably called a goddess, and described as having Sukha (female) and Unwasted Vajra (male), then "he" really is Androgyne. And so he gets this retinue which is perhaps a bit unusual since Raga is in Vajra Family and there is also Kama at the end:

    Bodhicitta---Vajrasattva (who has both the great pleasure and the unwasted vajra)

    Understanding Bodhicitta--Vajra Family Ragavajra (who pleases Vajrasattva's mind so he will not swerve from the thought of enlightenment)

    Realization of Bodhicitta--Ratna Family Vajrakilikila (Joyful utterance, the pledge to arouse attachment to the great pleasure and unwasted vajra)

    Non-abandonment--Dharma Family Vajrasmrti (unshattered, victory over lust, etc.)

    Knowledge characterized by Attainment--Karma Family Vajrakamesvari (sensory objects materialized by Vajrasattva)


    It follows from the explanation of Vajrasattva that his inclusion in the five
    goddess group is simply because he has the “great pleasure” which must be
    counted as female in contrast with the “unwasted vajra'" which is male.
    This is the closest this literature comes to the “passive-active” polarity.
    It is because Vajrasattva is androgyne that both men and women can
    practice the Tantras as yogins and yoginis.



    And so it is from these one would learn the Four Seals.

    The Fourth Activity enacted by Kama Ishvari above is the correct way to look at Krtyausthana Jana or Amoghasiddhi. Yes, the North pretty much always indicates knowledge or ability gained by a rite, but that is the Wisdom of Amoghasiddhi, Krtyausthana, entirely arcane.


    Pramadya surprisingly ends like Guhyasamaja. The latter talks about thirty-eight classes of samadhi from initial training up to the hundred lineages, it then talks about after-stability, so one remains in inseparable void ecstasy, the union of vajra and lotus or Vajrapadmasamayoga:

    By the yoga of '‘after-stability' one is ever stabilized. That
    practice in all thoughts is called ‘practice of mantras’.

    Whatever the sense basis and whatever its path ( — sense
    object), precisely that approach in its own-being leads
    to all Buddha-equality by the yoga of ‘after’-stability.

    Accordingly, the asamdhita is the place
    in the intervals by means of‘divine pride’ ( devata-garva ). The
    two of them do not exist separately in the yughanaddha-krama
    because there is a single own-being of ‘profound concentration’



    So the Yoga techniques and samadhis should make a seamless garment to outer activities. The process shows us to cash in our old Garva and get a new one.


    Paramadya similarly says:

    Whatever the sense basis and whatever its path, he should
    act in the own-being of the former and the latter. By
    yoga after stability, he will unite with his own presiding
    lord ( adhideia ). By this very yoga he will accomplish
    everything. He will always see and perfect all the Buddha
    natures.


    So this is like understanding four parts of Vajrasattva mantra.


    Sarva Siddhim me prayaccha is based in Five-pronged Vajra as described.

    Laughter = Four Joys and Bell of Prajna

    Sarva Tathagata Vajre = for example Parasol, Sarva Tathagata Adhisthana Adhistithe, All Buddhas' state of consecration.

    Vajri Bhava = Vajra Ground, or, first Bhumi, or, Vajrasattva as wired through what "vajris" are capable of, more and more initiations.

    Now by doing this, anyone can do it. If you are willing to do anything more than just read the words, you will get Vajrasattva casting or turning into some kind of purifying water. This is not tantric Nectar, but, you can get it to do something that is at least vaguely baptismal and helps. Now if you plug him in to Vajrasekhara or Shingon, it still will give his retinue back at what we might call a conceptual level. If you are dedicated to it, you probably can benefit from the long, formal process that goes on from there. However when goddesses are mixed in, then it is the case that works heavily on a Dharani basis that will bring a whole lot more power and subsequently change the mandala. And so then you get the subject "Paramadya into Dakini Jala". And so this means you are taking a minor Vajrasattva and moving it into his full operating field.

    In Paramadya there is a weird, singular instance of Raga in Vajra Family, which is echoed much further down the road by for instance Achi in Vajra Family, or Parasol emanating as Maha Pratyangira and Amaravajra. Paramadya Raga is based in Anuraga, which would not generally get my attention, but, recently showed up as the word for a feeling I have never known a word for, other than perhaps symbolicly, Phoenix.
    Last edited by shaberon; 20th January 2021 at 21:33.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    "This is interesting.

    Quote I believe it is Sanmat or Sikh Yoga.
    Not sure what this is, Guru Nanak was dead set opposed to yoga."

    Yes. Guru Nanak was opposed to some forms of yoga and would surely have rejected the bastardized version of kundalini yoga as taught by any yogi, especially one claiming to be a sikh. The only real yog attributed to the sikh legacy is a wide open choice of the practitioner to develop their own, without losing touch to basic ethical standards that keep one in touch with the truth. Master it then leave it. If it is of service to humanity, it will find you.

    In the case of martial arts, the sikhs did develop Gatka and other forms, adapted to being outnumbered by many opponents, arts previously known for many years.

    Guru Nanak's emphasis was Raj Yog, the honoring, the crowning of the soul you are, embodied in Seva and self sacrifice on the highest level, the egoless energy needed to embrace the truth and not be caught up in the world of sensational limitations that many yogas focus on. When I see sikhs lost in the outward imprint of some pseudo-martial and ego-based drama, I quote Kabir and his hard core insights into hypocrisy, since his words live in the sikh Guide.

    Also, you are referring to Sant Mat, a 5 prayer method of mantra that, after repetition, has the practitioner close off the eyes, ears and mouth, leaving a nostril or both open to breath in order to occlude external sensory input and thus begin to see and hear deeper. It is in the Listening and in beginning to See.

    This is the art, the way, the method of occlusion as practiced by many different paths, with some closely aligned variants in the words themselves.

    Jot Neerunjun, O Ung Kaar, Roorun Kaar (or Raarun Kaar), So Hung, Saat Naam(Suh- tih Naam). (the U as in the word Up)

    Then, while occluding the other senses, in listening...Soonee-eh.........................

    The Way of Occlusion was last of the Eight Stands of The Brocade that the very tall Sons of Reflected Light, the Fan Kuang Tzu, originally taught the Chinese some 11,000 years ago. The other strands being natural diet, herbal therapy, thermogenesis, Daoist massage, acupuncture, acupressure and exercise.

    Most sikhs, definitely those lost in the excess of what a corrupt yogi taught them, do not even know of it's existence, as inner connection thru sound and sight was excluded from all of his teachings.

    However the method and many others are alive within the sikh guides, Dasam Granth Sahib and The Siri Guru Granth Sahib.

    I learned it from a Jain who sought me out and shared the method along many other prayers and their applications, projections, and effects. The Sant Mat teachers also sent me chaylas, students, who invited me to learn. No money ever passing hands, just service to share. Help keep the lights on..in the room and inside the practices.

    Guru Gobind Singh did reference the method in the treatise prayer on the journey of the soul into enlightenment, called The 35 Letters, Pentees Uhkree, composed of the 35 basic letters of the alphabet, arranged in 7 dynamic paragraphs. Most notably he advised that the prayer always be vocalized and not ever whispered or read silently. It is a graduation test on enunciation for the language, and one of the 11 Baanees, prayers, that make up the Suhdaa Sunpoorun Paat.

    Recently, and more specifically most think of Kundalini Yoga as something connected by the precepts of core sikhism and it is not. Guru Nanak taught the core truths of Raj Yog, which holds the highest of ethical standards and a direct connection to the power of service to humanity. Sadhana, discipline of the soul, is not bound to early morning practice, which is just putting in the hours for a distant promise never realized. It is much more than that.

    My brothers and sisters of many paths laugh at the salesmanship it took to con some good people out of their life's energy, by occluding these truths from those who seek them.

    I do understand where the great disconnect from the truth of a perception is, as it took a lot of energy to run such a corrupt enterprise.

    'My job is to keep the kundalini of my students from rising' is a quote from the american sikh magazine Beads of Truth. It would not only be informed to find another method of learning a complete yog to learn and master, if one were to follow the real dynamic of kundalini and all of it's esoteric dynamics, but it would also be wise not to take a single word from a man who teaches a form of yoga in which he states it is his job to prevent his students from realizing it's essence. I see the printers forgot to put that in all of the manuals, as long as they were saying SatNam, Tell the Truth, in every greeting they had and in every course they so shamelessly sold. I am quite sure your perceptions are much more refined and developed by now to understand.

    Not only was the k.y. taught by that man not kundalini yoga, if by that we know it to be a process of understanding the whole of an awakening and balanced life, while maintaining a service filled life of high ethics, but it draws very little of the experience based life of a any real seeker, let alone a sikh, surely not a GurSikh.

    I had asked many sikhs who are in name and dress just that, what they have learned recently from the sikh guru, The Siri Guru Granth, and they are often without an answer. They can endlessly quote a yogi, a tuggee, ad nauseam, but often can't remember or understand what the Hookum Naam from their Guru was that morning, or from their wedding, or from the birth of their children, or the answer to a dilemma they had in their life. WTF indeed. Simple lack of connection, for which I understand, but refuse to be around.

    I hope this clarifies any misunderstandings around Guru Nanak's messages on yoga.
    Last edited by Hym; 21st January 2021 at 03:06.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    Vajri is, as you say, 'feminine vajra' but exactly what is that? As opposed to shakti. This is very interesting, you know I had a long thing with lightning bodies, and this seems like it is them somehow, that would be one kind of 'feminine vajra'.

    Certainly; if the root force is electro-magnetical, the other shaktis such as heat, light, and moisture, are transforms out of it.

    Those are the physical results of creation from the mental side. and so we do not really call them shaktis, since we are reversing their materializing behavior to revert to a mental-only state.

    I do not think we can do much linguisticly with "vajri", since it has never come up as a subject. I am pretty sure we can get the inner meaning by following the antics of Sattvavajri.

    Sattvavajri begins symbolic of the Tenth Paramita, but then she gains the Fourth Mudra and is crucial for the appearance of central deity or Buddha himself, and then her place at the beginning is pre-empted by Vajra Vajrini in other books. Grabbing the fourth power is like grabbing the originally-male Garva in that position.


    Vajracakra is not a made-up term at all; it has shown up where Buddha apparently fuses Sattvavajri to Vajrasattva producing Vajra Eye; and Vajracakra becomes the core of Dakarnava Heruka. Actually, it is the first layer around the Padma, Binducakra, or Tilakachakra. He has layers, "Puta", each consisting of three rings. His Sahaja core is the Bindu and three layers (Vajra, Hrdaya, and Guna or Merit); his Dharma layer is Space, Wind, and Earth; his Sambhoga layer is Fire, Water, and Gnosis. The "to us" highest element, Vijnana, Manas, Gnosis, is his lowest, the others stacking up backwardsly. His Gnosis is above his Nirmana layer of Mind--Citta (consisting of the "kinds of beings or mental states"), Speech--Vak (Puja, Japa, etc.), and finally his Body, or, to us, Kama Loka.



    Vajrini is so prominent and well-known as Pratisara mantra, it may as well be her name. If she is a Dharani, and perpetuates the "vajri" names where others choose differently, and, it is in a sadhana which has obvious tantric implications that scholars and artists do not deal with, a better arrangement of her table may be useful. It is a Nyasa:


    Eyes: cakṣuṣormohavajrī mahāpratisarā (Rupa skandha)

    Ears: śrotrayor dveṣavajrī mahāsāhasrapramarddanī (vedana)

    Nose: ghrāṇe mātsaryyavajrī mahāmāyūrī (samjna)

    Mouth: vaktre rāgavajrī mahāmantrānusāriṇī (samsara)

    Surface: spharśe īrṣyāvajrī mahāsitvatī (vijnana)


    Dhatu Ayatana Svabhava purified by infusion of deities, devata vishuddhi.


    This is a Kriya tantra because it implies Vairocana-centered with Eyes related to form.

    It protects mostly the face, leaving Spharse as "body".

    When such a mandala "graduates", skandhas will play musical chairs by sliding down one spot, so that Samsara lines up with Irsya, and then Vijnana Skandha will get sucked to the center looking to meet the Sixth Element, Vijnana--Manas.

    Temporarily, your Samsara is in the hands of the Mantra Queen of Lotus Family.

    It purifies the ayatanas of dhatus, and even if not mentioned here, the same principle applies to Akasa Dhatu Ayatana and the other Formless Realms.

    As the ayatanas are purified, they raise the Gauris, which are Sampatti or fully-absorbed meditations.

    Garva is obviously a target of the early tantra, for which, we find, the union of Ratnasambhava with Vajradhatvishvari is to Extinguish Pride, or Garva.

    Lasya is defined as Pleasure in the Thought of Enlightenment, so, she keeps Raga Vajra's idea from Paramadya Tantra.


    Names of Wisdom tells us Sattvavajri is the pledge-deing of all Tathagatas. The end of Vajrasattva's mantra implies compressing the Vajris into "Ah", whereas:

    [[He is] the great breath, a non-production. Free from speech utterance. Foremost cause of all expression. Very radiant as all speech. (29) 150] The great breath, a non-production [is to be understood] as meaning Sattvavajri. Here the great breath is the sound 'A'; and that [sound 'A'] has nonproduction as its nature. [This is] because it has the Dharma-Sphere as its nature and is the cause of the Mirror-like Awareness.

    It does something like this:

    Manjusrjnanasattva The letter A Sattvavajri Ratnavajri Dharmavajri Karmavajri Vajrasattva Amitabha Aksobhya Vairocana Amoghasiddhi Ratnasambhava Vajrasattva Vajraraja Vajraraga



    From Sattvavajri's non-produced sound, you get:

    Free from speech utterance (vagudaharavarjitah) [is to be understood] as meaning Ratnavajri. He, [that is, ManjuSri,] is free from (varjitah > rahitah) that speech utterance {vag^udahara} since, as a result of the Awareness of Equality, [the faculty of] speech is not functioning. Foremost cause of all expression (sarvabhilapahetvagryah) [is to be understood] as meaning Dharmavajri. All expression {sarva^abhilapa} means the expression (abhilapah > abhilapanam) of all real entities (dharma), such as the five constituents (skandhas). The cause (hetuh > karanam) of that [expression] is the Discriminating Awareness. For this very reason it is foremost (agryah > pradhanam). Very radiant as all speech (sarvavaksuprabhasvarah) 151 [is to be under­ stood] as meaning Karmavajri. All speech {sarva:vak} means [the varieties of speech] as referred to in the passage that begins, "with the speech of the gods, with the speech of the nagas ,.."



    Vajris are related to the Dhyanas--Janas and the Outer Offerings to Samadhi:


    mahadhyanasamadhistha iti vajrapuspa / samadhi^ cittasyaikagratalaksanas 10 tasmims tisthatiti samadhisthah / mahac ca tad 11 dhyanam ca 12 mahadhyanam mahattvam caturdhyanatmakatvat /

    Possessor of a body of great wisdom {mahaprajnas~arira2xihrk} means Vajradhupa (Lady of Diamond Incense). Great wisdom {maharajna} is [to be understood as] a body {mahaprajiia:£arira}. He is 'one who possesses that [body]'. Dweller in concentration in great meditation is Vajrapuspa (Lady of the Diamond Flower) {mahadhyana^samadhisthah}. [ManjuSri is a] dweller in concentration {samadhi^sthah}, that is to say, in one-pointedness of mind, in great meditation {maha:dhyana}. [It is called] great because it has the Four Meditation States as its nature. He is in the state of samadhi in those Four Meditation States. Resolve (pranidhih) 193 is Vajradipa (Lady of Diamond Light). [The word] 'pranidhih' means 'that which is vowed', [that is, a 'vow' or 'resolve', rather than 'one who vows']. [He is so-described] because through the power of resolve Bodhisattvas are produced.

    Dhyana is intended to increase to Samadhi which becomes so intense one becomes oblivious to outer stimuli, which is Sampatti.

    It appears to say Greed is the axis of Sampatti handled by Ratna Family:

    mahamahamahalobha iti7 // mahamaheti purvavat8 * / mahalobho9 ratnasambhavah // sarvalobhanisudana iti / sarvalaukikalokottarasampatti


    Which is very similar to him consorting with Vajradhatvishvari. Here it is Greed and there it is Pride.


    The fourth dhyana, upekkhāsatipārisuddhi, is generally seen as the gate to Siddhis. It makes sense, Sati or basic mindfulness receives shuddhi, purification by deities, to become Smrti, which is tantricly the gate to worldly (laukika) and transcendant (lokottara) siddhis. The Lokottara are Generation and Completion stages, hence, reliant on samadhi.


    We are just about fluent enough to say that Dharanimandala is an equivalent goddess-based version of Vajradhatu, and so if it is given the proper things for Thirty-seven point enlightenment, it should be equivalent.


    An edit to Kurukulla says her mantra is "like" a butter lamp rosary in terms of shine. It doesn't mean there is a Butter Lamp Rosary mantra.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Yes. Guru Nanak was opposed to some forms of yoga and would surely have rejected the bastardized version of kundalini yoga as taught by any yogi, especially one claiming to be a sikh. The only real yog attributed to the sikh legacy is a wide open choice of the practitioner to develop their own, without losing touch to basic ethical standards that keep one in touch with the truth. Master it then leave it. If it is of service to humanity, it will find you.
    What he specifically rejected was withdrawing from the world to cultivate oneself with yoga, by extension he did not approve of those who do, who make up a large number of those who found schools of yoga.

    I am aware of Sikh martial arts, having attended many kabaddi events, and treated their wounded.

    Quote Fung Quan Tzu
    Could you please check this for either spelling or transliteration? Quan is in pinyin and the other two words aren't so it is not easy to understand what you mean here. Do you mean, e.g. Feifong quan (flying phoenix boxing)? Do you mean Zhuangzi (Chuang tzu)?

    Guru Nanak felt that yoga practice was withdrawal from the world, and he advocated not doing such withdrawal, instead being in the world with the name of the lord on one's tongue at all times.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Vajradhara Guru + enlightened use of the central wind = experience of Dharmakaya, so, in that way, he "has a consort", like the Spring Drop is "the Mahasiddhas' consort".

    Vajradhara is considered to emanate a Celestial Bodhisattva, i. e. into Akanistha.

    He may be considered by some to be an Outer Guru in the sense you could just pick up books about him and read those lines.

    I have never taken him as anything other than Unmanifest.
    He's usually considered to be very high level, isn't he? That Niguma had communicated with Vajradhara directly was considered evidence that she had attained the 10th (at that time the highest) Bhumi.

    Quote Parasol is Bhrkuti and Padmavajri.

    Cunda is Sattvavajri.


    Parasol has an incredibly hypostatic path which is just hard to find due to the strewn material being hidden behind the popular use of her common mantras.

    Cunda has nothing like that, however, she would if taken as Sattvavajri, and we see how that bridges to an entire class of Bodhisattvas, which is not being discussed by anyone that I know of, or raised in the commentaries. Simply by evidence alone we are able to see the big picture of them.
    A bridge or a dual embodiment. To me she is dually embodied, so she has both a highly austere form and a 'flower form' (generative, womb).

    Quote And so if Vajrasattva is questionably called a goddess, and described as having Sukha (female) and Unwasted Vajra (male), then "he" really is Androgyne. And so he gets this retinue which is perhaps a bit unusual since Raga is in Vajra Family and there is also Kama at the end:
    This version of Vajrasattva is closer to the sort of mixed Vajrasattva I've ended up having because of combining what I had had for a Vajrasattva with what you have said about some of his surrounding symbols -- yoghurt for instance.

    Quote Now by doing this, anyone can do it. If you are willing to do anything more than just read the words, you will get Vajrasattva casting or turning into some kind of purifying water. This is not tantric Nectar, but, you can get it to do something that is at least vaguely baptismal and helps.
    This confirms the previous comment for me.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    It is spelled Fan Kuang Tzu, Sons of Reflected Light. It is no reference to martial arts. It means the tall whites, the sons of a higher race, a more advanced race, in metallic craft/air ships, reflecting the sunlight.


    This is my understanding and method for transliteration. A bit of it at least, explaining why I spell that way:

    From various differences in dialects I see a range of transliterations, from what is called pinyin, 'spell sound', by those who transliterate Chinese. I use the "u" as in "up", instead of the "a". Most Americans would say "fan", like 'I turned the fan on when it was hot', instead of saying "fun", like 'I had fun learning'. If someone learning speaks the romance languages, they usually enunciate correctly, with only small corrections to get it right.

    In transliteration the Uh, or a, is also the sound that fills in between consonants, without being written. It is called the mukta/mooktuh, the liberated space.

    To be quite direct with you about this, I felt I had to ask about my method, even after the Indian Sikhs, who asked my help in teaching, said it was correct. I asked The Siree Guroo Grunt about my method. The HukamNaam/Hookum Naam, the focused yet random opening of the Guru, from Guru Raam Daas, answered:

    "It doesn't matter how you say Creation's/God's Name, as long as you say it with your Heart."

    That took all of my focus on enunciation and method, and emphasized to me that it is always the intention of your words that have to be the focus. Learn the correct way, speaking as a complete being, then let it be.

    Also, the word for the Heart was Gut-ih/Ghat. I find this correlation in a lot of transliterations and translations from one prayer system to another, wherein there is carried a meaning that is not coincidental. The G/Gh is a low tone, used by the British transliterators to mean aspirated. The same G spoken from the Tan Tien, the core of your physical energy. The T is a retroflex which means a connection to higher consciousness, touched with the tongue thru the upper palate.

    In essence this means that sincerity in speech is a combination of your primal being connected to your higher consciousness. When the lower energy of physicality rises and the upper energy of awareness lowers, they meet in the Heart, the timeless and infinite space of experiential awareness. We feel it in our Gut, our primal awareness that transcends the limitations of speech and words....The technicality is the road, but not the Path.

    When sharing with those who speak and read American English, sacred Indo-Asian prayers are most often enunciated incorrectly by them. Either way, it is of no matter, as we teach phonetically the way people read and speak. It is easy to teach, and yet glaring when it is done without that simple correction.

    An American for example, using a standardized British transliteration system, enunciates many of the words in GoorMookee incorrectly. A good example of this is when English speaking people refer to sikhs from Northwest India use the mispronunciation "Poon Jab ee", instead of Punj-aabee. Punj is 5, Aab is river. The Punjaab is most notably referenced as the location of the 5 rivers. In American English we rarely use the "u" sounding like "oo" and most often say Uh as in Up.

    There is a lot more about sharing this, but suffice it to say I do notice when it has been taught correctly and when it has not. The words, the texts, the songs flow so much easier when it is taught with a simplicity, just as Guru Angad/Ungud was instructed to do by Guru Nanak/Naanuhk, quite easily I have found out, engaging a simplicity that illiterate people could grasp and soon master, easily becoming literate in a very powerful language no less. Again, the heart of speech is not about the technicality, nor the correctness, but the intent of the words. I do get it when earnest people speak from the heart, "correct" or not.

    When learning another language, and my focus has been on sacred language, native american, shinto, etc., I have learned to seek out the essence of what that culture is expressing.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Certainly; if the root force is electro-magnetical, the other shaktis such as heat, light, and moisture, are transforms out of it.

    Those are the physical results of creation from the mental side. and so we do not really call them shaktis, since we are reversing their materializing behavior to revert to a mental-only state.
    I know what you mean here, but do also know that in places, such as the Avatamsaka sutra, this distinction of a "mental-only state" doesn't exist.

    Quote Vajrini is so prominent and well-known as Pratisara mantra, it may as well be her name. If she is a Dharani, and perpetuates the "vajri" names where others choose differently, and, it is in a sadhana which has obvious tantric implications that scholars and artists do not deal with, a better arrangement of her table may be useful. It is a Nyasa:


    Eyes: cakṣuṣormohavajrī mahāpratisarā (Rupa skandha)

    Ears: śrotrayor dveṣavajrī mahāsāhasrapramarddanī (vedana)

    Nose: ghrāṇe mātsaryyavajrī mahāmāyūrī (samjna)

    Mouth: vaktre rāgavajrī mahāmantrānusāriṇī (samsara)

    Surface: spharśe īrṣyāvajrī mahāsitvatī (vijnana)
    Can you please see if spharśe might be misspelled? I spent a lot of time trying to chase it down, in this diagram, and in the dictionary, it might be should be sparśe, connoting a sense of touch.

    Quote [[He is] the great breath, a non-production. Free from speech utterance. Foremost cause of all expression. Very radiant as all speech. (29) 150] The great breath, a non-production [is to be understood] as meaning Sattvavajri. Here the great breath is the sound 'A'; and that [sound 'A'] has nonproduction as its nature. [This is] because it has the Dharma-Sphere as its nature and is the cause of the Mirror-like Awareness.
    At least some of this --taking the sound 'A' to be non-production -- is in the disappearance of 'A' from the letters when in a word, and the all speech from that it is the compression of the Prajnaparamita.

    I keep counting 4s everywhere instead of 5s or more. Am I missing something?

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    I know what you mean here, but do also know that in places, such as the Avatamsaka sutra, this distinction of a "mental-only state" doesn't exist.
    One of the places Avatamsaka was spoken is Tusita Heaven.

    It is the place where Ekajati Pratibaddha Bodhisattvas dwell prior to birth in the life they become a Buddha:

    "First, dwelling in the Tusita Heaven, he proclaims the true Dharma. Having left the heavenly palace, he descends into his mother's womb."

    Indra Heaven is the last thing said to be related to form as we know it. Tusita is above this, and, is the lair of the Aditis. Aditi is Boundless, mother of the gods, representing a level that mentally thinks, but, does not, itself, work with lower matter.

    The Aditis or Tusitas are in a form or body which is only made of mental matter.

    That would be Body-less compared to ordinary consciousness. It is more like Illusory Body.

    The Sutra is probably saying more about the virtues of a Bodhisattva, but, if it uses the term Dharmadhatu, it asserts there is a mental element other than physical matter. It is made up of none other than the senses, but, the senses may be placed in a non-physical mode.

    Dharmadhatu is really the term I would use about "pinning" a five-fold bundle of form to the Sixth Element. In a system of Five, Dharmadhatu is the highest thing. It is like the word "Form" or "Body", a bit shifty, requiring context.



    Quote Can you please see if spharśe might be misspelled? I spent a lot of time trying to chase it down, in this diagram, and in the dictionary, it might be should be sparśe, connoting a sense of touch.
    Yes, it is sparsha...spelling tweaks make this pretty difficult.

    We see in this format of tantra that Sparsha is in Karma Family, and that, similarly to how the list of skandhas is going to "take a turn", Sparsha is going to the middle.




    Quote I keep counting 4s everywhere instead of 5s or more. Am I missing something?
    Well, often these basic retinues are just a cycle of four.

    And, to be precise, there is not really "the Prajnaparamita Sutra", there is a Prajnaparamita genre of literature, for which I take the large version online as "the Sutra".

    But the Hrdaya Sutra with the Gate Gate mantra is not in it; different book.

    And so it is an obscure piece of this literature on which Seventeen Deity mandala is based: Prajnaparamita in 150 Stanzas.

    Paramadya Tantra begins basically by copying it.

    It is unusual, since it is not in Akanistha, but in the sixth Kama Loka called Enjoying the Emanations of Others, where Vairocana deals with the Ishvar of this plane:


    Vairocana teaches Ishvara (that is, the Lord) of the desire realm by first emanating as a body of great joy who is
    surrounded by a retinue of beautiful women. This gets Ishvara’s attention, since when he
    sees the beauty of Vairocana’s retinue his own wife and her retinue look ugly in
    comparison. ÊŸvara then asks Vairocana how he obtained such a bevy of beauties. It is in
    response to this that Vairocana teaches ÊŸvara the seventeen pure states of the mode of the
    perfection of wisdom. Because ÊŸvara would be afraid of attaining liberation through the
    process of taking refuge, generating the mind of enlightenment, and then giving up his
    domain, Vairocana taught (or displayed) the seventeen pure states in the manner of
    goddesses, and thus he taught them as the source of very joyful great bliss.

    He then set forth the benefits of listening to and contemplating the mode of the perfection of wisdom
    (that is, the seventeen purities or pure states).


    This comes from a study on Prajnaparamita literature which used Paramadya to ascertain versions of The Great Compendium sent to China. The author studied it heavily and does not bother to tell us what Vishuddhipada are, other than "similar to emptinesses".

    According to H. H. Gyalwa Karmapa, Prajnaparamita itself began by quoting an older book. He also says that early texts did not begin "Evam Maya Srutam" as if they did not try to portray themselves as Sutra or i. e., spoken by Buddha.

    150 Lines comes at p. 184 in the Conze translation, and I am not really able to find Seventeen Vishuddhi Pada before Vajrapani casting a mandala.

    It is one of the few articles considered a tantric Prajnaparamita text. It is considered the first intsersection of esoteric tenets with a mandala.

    Here is 8000 Lines on one web page, which may not help us here.

    Yogachara Bhumi contains "Seventeen Stages of a Bodhisattva", i. e. the preliminaries and the Bhumis.

    she has both a highly austere form and a 'flower form' (generative, womb) -- Parasol and Cunda. Sure. Parasol is regal. She has the "Ni" syllable--which is really that of Khandaroha no matter which mistake you make--but perhaps means "to lead, govern". She is, perhaps, just passing the heat on its course. Cunda appears closer to the engine of heat generation, thus, a Red Bowl. If we follow Samvarodaya Tantra then "Vajrasattva consort" becomes Vairocani with him in the Navel.

    When Cunda enters the base of the spine, secondary Khandaroha is her neighbor.



    It is possible that originally Vajrasattva only had a Vajra and no Bell. As we can see, the Bell item, or, rather, the powers of it, are unfolded in Karma Family and passed along.




    The tenth Bhumi is the State of Vajradhara.

    Here is some stuff from the Niguma book. Shangpa Kagyu is based on Vajradhara as a Guru to Niguma and Sukhasiddhi. He is also counted as a Guru to Nairatma, Cinnamasta, and Jnanadakini in those lineages such as Vajrabhairava Tantra.

    They say that Vajradhara is the Sixth Family although he has Seven Aspects. If he is a type of Fruitional Vajrasattva, that is why these two are often used interchangeably and would not generally be seen as breaking the format of a Six Family Wheel. I am not sure that I am saying there is a Seventh Family, if it hasn't any other members, but there is a Seventh Consciousness.

    Most of this is not "Niguma says" but is in the book:

    It can be determined that the fruition aspect of tantra is twofold: the actual fruition and the nominal results. The actual
    fruition is that of supreme Vajradhara, the powerful state of
    mastery over all family types. The nominal results are those
    of the illusory body and of an ordinary being who has realized primordial unity. The latter case is the flawed embodiment of one who is still on the path of training, while the
    former is the flawless embodiment of timeless awareness of
    one who has reached the path of no more training. The illusory body is also termed that of "a master of awareness" and
    "rainbow body"; it constitutes a complete transcendence of
    the three realms.



    " Vajradhara is described as the inner aspect
    of the buddha Shakyamuni. In this form, the Buddha taught the four
    classes of tantra to King Indrabhuti, "he" abides until the end of time,
    and he dwells in that mysterious place called the bhaga of the vajra
    queens"

    Similarly to how Sattvavajri bears the Tenth Paramita while being the "first goddess":

    The dharmakaya free of all embellishment [appears) in the
    meditative equipoise above the first ground. The sambhogakaya adorned with the signs and marks appears in the subsequent knowing on the three pure grounds. The nirmanakaya
    appears in the subsequent knowing up through the seventh
    ground and above the greater [ground] of the Path of
    Accumulation.
    It is interesting that the dharmakaya is accessible first, though specifically in meditation. It seems more profound, the ground of all buddhabodies, and therefore more difficult to realize. But the keener realization
    is to meet the fully adorned and manifesting buddha, not in meditation but in the subsequent awareness after meditation-in "daily life" so to speak.

    Of course, that is not to say the Tenth Paramita or the Dharmakaya is fully realized on those "initial tastes", you have a process of it going deeper while the manifestation becomes stronger.



    The actual Tenth is far out enough that Vajradhara rather initiated Niguma and then she attained Dharma Megha:

    in this life she directly saw the truth of the nature of phenomena just by hearing some instructive advice from a few adept masters. Her dissipating illusory body
    arose as the nondissipating kaya. Dwelling in the three pure grounds,
    she encountered the great Vajradhara in person. After she had fully
    received from him the complete four empowerments in the emanated
    mandala of secret mantra mahayana, she developed the timeless awareness of the understanding of all dharma doors-siitras, tantras, esoteric
    instructions, treatises, and so on. She realized all phenomena the way
    they are and the way they appear in their multiplicity, and became a real
    bodhisattva dwelling on the tenth ground, Cloud of Dharma.



    Her personal practice is a parallel snap-fit to what we have with Guhyajnana Dakini and Ziro Bhusana Vajrayogini:

    The practice text
    attributed to Niguma translated here is quite remarkable and considerably different than the one found in the later Shangpa tradition. The
    more usual visualization, such as that found in Kalu Rinpoche's daily
    practice, involves Chakrasamvara with Vajrayogini as the central deities in union surrounded by four dakinis.
    There is also a practice of visualizing just the dakinis without Chakrasamvara called Five l)dkinis (mkha' gro sde lnga) in the Shangpa lineage. The relevant texts of this were arranged by Kongtrul, drawing
    on Taranatha's Mine of jewels, and seem not to date earlier than that,
    though it is described as an esoteric instruction of Khyungpo Naljor,
    received directly from the five dakinis themselves and in turn from the
    Lion-faced dakini.


    It is also parallel to Namasangiti, which increases the Vajradhatu mandala to Mahavajradhatu, which is equivalent to Maha Vairocana and complete Sambhogakaya:


    In the palace of Akanistha,
    Vairochana sambhogakaya Vajradhara

    Which is synonymous to, for instance, Samantabhadra Vajradhatu.



    The way higher Bhumis are described essentially puts them as simply another series of initiations. Niguma's first teaching is Empowerment:

    Alternatively, that tenth-ground bodhisattva in Akanistha received
    the complete four empowerments from the great Vajradhara in union
    as sambhogakaya and great Vajradhara as sukhakaya, the sixth family.
    By that, he traversed to the fourteenth ground. It says in the Tantra of
    Vajra Bliss and in the Tantra of Timeless Awareness Drops:
    The vase empowerment is the eleventh,
    the secret empowerment the excellent twelfth,
    the wisdom-timeless awareness the thirteenth,
    thus the tathagata is the fourteenth.
    Each ground for each empowerment.
    These are the lords of the grounds


    union and great bliss sambhogakaya, arising to tame anyone,
    the mighty Vajradhara of three kayas and seven aspects:



    She is going to let slip the secret of Khaganana:

    3. One's own body is the means: three channels and four
    chakras.
    The blazing and melting of a-ham adorns one in moments with
    four joys.
    By uniting with the wisdom's khagamukha
    dissipating and nondissipating four joys arise in sequence.

    4· Gather the quintessence, the hollow interior purifier in three
    vital points/
    and to quicken the heat/ the six dharmas, such as inner heat in
    sequence:
    rabbit descending, holding, reversing, spreading, and blending
    with vital energy currents.
    Adorn oneself with nondissipating great timeless awareness.


    The Lord of all families, the sixth victor great Vajradhara,
    appeared naturally to the dakini of timeless awareness as
    unborn native natural sound, which naturally revealed the
    abiding nature of mahamudra in samsara and nirvana, and
    she spoke these vajra lines...


    "When even the most subtle aspects of the subtle channels, energies, and bindu have
    been refined so chat they are free of obscuration, one is purified of the ordinary experience of the body and abides on the thirteennth level. This is the actual accomplishment
    of the state of Vajradhara, that is, the enlightened embodiment of timeless awareness,
    the rainbow body of the consummate path of no more training.


    Vajradhara is described as having seven aspects of
    union (kha sbyor bdun !dan):

    (1) complete enjoyment (longs spyod rdzogs pa), (2) union (kha sbyor), (3) great bliss (bde ba chen po), (4) no intrinsic nature (rang bzhin med pa ), ( s) completely filled with compassion (snying rjes yongs su gang ba ), ( 6) uninterrupted (rgyun mi chad pa), and (7) unceasing (gog pa med pa).

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Okay, so several things.

    Spelling is important for Chinese transliteration because there are only 911 distinct pronunciations for all words in the Chinese language (mandarin). And there are several standard transliterations for standard mandarin, less so for the other dialects. By transliterating it now, as Fan Kuang Tzu (which is known as Wade-Giles system tranliteration), I can very easily see what characters it is. Likewise, if you had written Fanguangzi, which would be the pin-yin. And by saying it is 'sons of reflected light' then I can easily write down, "反光子" and look it up on the internet, because I studied Chinese, including some classical Daoist texts (Laozi, Zhuangzi).

    Here is what I find. All roads from "Sons of Reflected Light" lead to Chee Soo, a source cited by Chan Kam Lee, a Taijiquan practitioner who taught "Lee style" Taijiquan, and claimed this as a Daoist source. (in terms of transliteration, both Chan Kam Lee and Chee Soo are spelled as is normal for Cantonese or Toisan (Hong Kong dialect), which in itself is very normal for a 1930s Taijiquan teacher).

    In Chinese, if I search on "反光子", I get debates on Baidu and elsewhere about a so-called anti-matter photon called a "reflected photon" fanguangzi (子 can also mean 'seed' or in this case 'particle'), literally a "reflected photon". There is a debate over whether such a particle would exist, it is generally discredited by physicists because the only argument for its existence is to try to make all things "electromagnetic" have polarity.

    As for one site, which says Daoism is 10,000 years old and the 10,000 y.o. Daoists met seven foot strangers, etc., Daoism, which was the focus of my big paper when I was studying Chinese, dates from only the 1st millenium B.C.E. with Laozi and Zhuangzi. (My big paper wasn't officially a senior thesis, but it was the length of a master's thesis in Chinese, I wrote it for a class on Laozi, where we had to memorize the whole text).

    Separately, I am aware of transliteration for Indian languages, they are based on distinct transliterations for each syllable, because the nagari systems are syllabaries. India has many languages, and pronunciation is not uniform among them. But I'm also not sure outside of proper names that it is a good idea to roll your own on spellings. In my experience, those from different parts of the country can look at standard transliteration and pronounce the words immediately in their own language accents, because English is a link language in India and the Indian dialect of English is considered native speech.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    OM VAJRA GUHYA ABHISINCA HUM





    STTS could be called "the book of Vajradhatu".

    Vajradhatu is its first mandala given, and all the rest are children or offshoots of it.

    It turns out that Vajraguhya or Dharani mandala Is the second--pictured above at Alchi, centered on a four faced goddess, all considered consorts of male Vajradhatu deities.

    There is a slightly cleaner view of the inner core at Alchi site but impossible to show here.

    The relevant text is Chapter Two of Sanskrit STTS, or, the entire Gretil STTS on one page, which appears to have more mantras.


    A study informs us that Amoghavajra had a "Vajrosnisa system", and, that he also had a copy of Dakini Jala--which he censored:

    Assuming that the Vajroṣṇīṣa as summarized by Amoghavajra in
    the Indications of the Goals of the Eighteen Assemblies of the Yoga of the
    Adamantine Pinnacle Scripture [Vajra Sekhara] did not differ from the set of original
    texts given by Nāgajñāna to Vajrabodhi, we see that it is a heady mix
    indeed, as the Vajroṣṇīṣa obtained by Amoghavajra from Śrī Laṅkā
    is redolent of an origination in an esoteric Śaiva context. Among the
    texts obtained by Amoghavajra may be found the above-mentioned
    Tattvasaṃgraha, which constitutes the first through fifth assemblies
    in his Vajroṣṇīṣa system; at least one Yoginī-tantra, the system’s ninth
    assembly, the Sarvabuddhasamāyoga-ḍākinījālasaṃvara; and as well
    an edition of the Guhyasamāja, the fifteenth of the assemblies.
    Appreciation of this latter text, which declared itself to be promulgated while the Buddha was residing in the vulva of the Vajra Maidens,
    was effectively censored by Amoghavajra, who chose to transliterate rather than translate the unchaste term in the original Sanskrit;
    he noted both discretely and opaquely that the Guhyasamāja was
    “expounded in a secret place, that is to say, it was expounded in the
    yoṣidbhaga place, which is called the Prajñāpāramitā Palace.


    In the ongoing unfoldment of how widespread the Dharani system must have been:

    Cardinal mantras of the vajra-goddess-dominated Vajraguhya Mandala from the second
    chapter of the Sarvatathāgatatattvasaṃgraha have recently been identified by
    Ven. Rangama Chandawimala Thero (“Esoteric Buddhist Practice in Ancient
    Sri Lanka,” International Journal of the Humanities 5, no. 12 [2008]: 950) on two
    of the “dhāraṇī stones” recovered from the Abhayagirivihāra. Interestingly,
    Chandawimala has discovered that the Abhayagiri tablets provide mantras
    for the four Offering Goddesses of the Vajraguhya Mandala which are missing from the extant text of the Sarvatathāgatatattvasaṃgraha itself, suggesting
    that the Abhayagirivāsins may have had access to a slightly more extensive
    version of the Sarvatathāgatatattvasaṃgraha.


    Among the whole system of STTS sub-mandalas, Vajrapani generates a female dharani mandala from Karma Mudra. It would make what is called a Seventeen-deity mandala. This is what he casts:

    athātra karmamaṇḍale vajrakarmamudrā bhavanti /

    oṃ vajrasatvasiddhijñānasamaye huṃ jjaḥ // 1 //
    oṃ vajrākarṣaṇakarmajñānasamaye huṃ jjaḥ // 2 //
    oṃ vajraratirāgakarmajñānasamaye huṃ jjaḥ // 3 //
    oṃ vajrasādhukarmajñānasamaye huṃ jjaḥ // 4 // //
    oṃ vajrabhṛkuṭī vaśīkuru huṃ // 5 //
    oṃ vajrasūryamaṇḍale vaśīkuru huṃ // 6 //
    oṃ vajradhvajāgrakeyūre vaśīkuru huṃ // 7 //
    oṃ vajrāṭṭahāse vaśīkuru huṃ // 8 //
    oṃ vajrapadmarāge rāgaya huṃ // 9 //
    oṃ vajratīkṣṇarāge rāgaya huṃ // 10 //
    oṃ vajramaṇḍalarāge rāgaya huṃ // 11 //
    oṃ vajravāgrāge rāgaya huṃ // 12 //
    oṃ vajrakarmasamaye pūjaya huṃ // 13 //
    oṃ vajrakavacabandhe rakṣaya huṃ // 14 //
    oṃ vajrayakṣiṇi māraya vajradaṃṣṭrāyā bhinda hṛdayamamukasya huṃ phaṭ // 15 //
    oṃ vajrakarmamuṣṭi siddhya siddhya huṃ phaṭ // 16 //



    So we see that in STTS, there is a major fracas about charging up Karma Mudra as the fourth seal. This has two outcomes, the ability to cast the dharani mandala centered on a Brahma- or Vairocana-esque goddess, and, Karma Mudra taking on a new meaning as the *first* kind of tantric seal. Well, if we follow the text, the central goddess is Vajradhatvishvari, the eastern one is Vajravajrini, and Sattvavajri has disappeared. Actually these texts are using the full "Vajrini" rather than Vajri, so now we are getting double-stuck with that really only meaning a proper name.

    If not--I see for the masculine Vajrin, it may mean Twelve Vishvadevas, from the complex Progeny of Daksha. These are all males enumerated in Vishnu Purana, who are only partially famous:

    The Viswadevas incarnated on Earth due to the curse of sage Vishwamitra, as the 5 sons of Draupadi with the Pandavas - the Upapandavas.

    In Kubjika Tantra, Vajrini is a Duti in the circle of Ananta, and duplicated in the Earth circle under Indrani.

    It may be simple as "she holds a Vajra", since this seems to distinguish them from their neighbor goddesses. In that case, it is like calling Vajra Tara, Tara Vajrini. Otherwise, Sattvavajri would just boild back down to Vajra Sattva. The importance here does not seem to be so much that she holds the item, but that its power is used for change. The text gets loose with the names and winds up with Vajrapadma and Karmavajra next to each other. It does however refer to:

    paryaṅake susthitaṃ caityaṃ vajradhātvīśvarī smṛtā|

    That is probably the first instance of someone occupying an Empty Niche. The first tantric stupa goddess is most likely this Vajradhatvishvari.

    So there is a correspondence from a male-based Vajradhatu to a female-based one similar, but effective as Dharanis.


    In the STTS study, information about their forms is found:


    Concerning the four symbols of the four Paramitas, a five-pronged
    vajra is drawn for Sattvavajri; a five-pronged vajra attached to the top of a wishgranting-gem is drawn for Ratnavajri; a five-pronged vajra at the entrance to the
    repositoiy of a sixteen-petalled lotus is drawn for Dharmavajri; a crossed-vajra
    made of twelve prongs is drawn for Karmavajri. Anandagarbha adds: “A vajra
    with five prongs at both ends is drawn for Lasya; the garland of Mahavajraratna is
    drawn for Mala; a vajra-vina is drawn for Gita; the hand gesture of two hands,
    drawn up to the wrist and holding a three-pronged vajra, is drawn for Nrtya.


    Around p. 105 it discusses the STTS "secret rite" based from the Vajris, which confers siddhis and opens the Vajraguhya Dharani mandala. It uses a lot of Anjalis (similar to Samputa), characterizes the goddesses as females of the Pancha Jina and Sixteen Bodhisattvas, and calls them the Mind of Sarvavid Vairocana.


    From the Vajradhatu where they are amongst males, it gives their forms as:

    (6) Sattvavajri: She holds a red five-pronged vajra, and sits on a lotus and moon
    seat.
    (7) Ratnavajri: She holds a five-pronged vajra attached with the top of the wishgranting-gem, and sits on a lotus and moon seat.
    (8) Dharmavajri: She holds a five-pronged vajra at the entrance to the repository of
    a whitish-red sixteen-petalled lotus with eight petals turn downwards and eight
    petals turn upwards. She sits on a lotus and moon seat.
    (9) Karmavajri: She holds a crossed-vajra made of five colours and twelve prongs,
    i.e. its centre is white, its fore-part is blue, its right part is yellow, its back part is red
    and its left part is like emerald. She sits on a lotus and moon seat.

    (26) Vajralasya: Her body is white. She holds two five-pronged vajras with the
    vajra-fists. Having proudly displayed them with the vajra-contempt, she points
    both vajras slightly towards the left.
    (27) Vajramala: Her body is yellow. She consecrates the Tathagatas with a garland
    of gems.
    (28) Vajragita: Her body is pale red. She plucks a vina.
    (29) Vajranrtya: Her body is of the same colour as Vajrakarma's body. She holds a
    three-pronged vajra while making it dance with both her hands.

    (30) Vajradhupa: Her body is white. She satisfies the Tathagatas with the vajraincense-vessel.
    (31) Vajrapuspa: Her body is yellow. She holds a vq/Wz-flower-vessel in her left
    hand, and she scatters particles of flowers with her right hand.
    (32) Vajraloka: Her body is pale red. She holds the wick of a lamp and worships
    the Tathagatas delighted by the lamp's brightness.
    (33) Vajragandha: Her body is variegated just like the bodies of Vajranrtya and
    Vajrakarma. She holds the dharma-shell of scent in her left hand, and worships the
    Tathagatas with a scent-cloud held in her right hand.

    It looks as if at this stage, the Vajris are Bodhisattvas, and, when finished with the process that unfolds their Pancha Jina, they are Prajnas. So that is like saying Padmavajri is a Bodhisattva of Pandara, you do the training, and she becomes equivalent to Pandara. Whereas if you have "a Boddhisattva" such as Akashagarbha, it stays a Bodhisattva. This makes Vajri something of a role, like a bridge, is a flux of the goddesses' states rather than a set thing.

    It consistently speaks of the Four Paramitas, there are never six or ten involved here.

    It has a "variegated" color on Gandha, Nrtya, and Karmavajrini. This can be shown constant into Hevajra Tantra where the eighth Gauri, Dombini, is variegated and Offers her Body. Here again, the symbolic Yogic Karmamudra is prepared to become the first tantric seal.

    Lotus goddesses are Pale Red which is a standard take on Pandara.

    This is messy, but, it obviously is related to the few mentions of Prajnas and Vajradhatvishvari, i. e. Maitri's version is highly similar, and they are in Guhyasamaja.

    That seems strange to me that something highly evident at Alchi can be that closely inveigled with such a subject as has hardly been written. That is related to the basis of Prajnaparamita. It is like you can't have a girl Vajrasekhara. Amoghavajra called it a mode of Vajrosnisa and we know a girl one of those. So I am guessing she over-arches this version similarly.

    It is tough to say who they are. A Pancha Prajna, sixteen personal goddesses, and sixteen equivalents of the Bodhisattvas. When the mandala is cast, it appears to be called a Vajracakra; after enumerating the main retinue, it just adds:

    satvavajrādayo lekhyā yathāvad dhātumaṇḍale|
    cinhamudrāḥ samālekhyā vajralāsyādimaṇḍale||10|

    It looks like Vajrasattva is the source of a Dhatu Mandala, followed by that of Lasya and others.

    So I think that means two rings of sixteen, or, it should end with Gatekeepers; sixteen and twelve plus four.

    Would this Vajradhatvishvari wind up working something like what Niguma calls Mahavairocana Vajradhara...yes, that is still it.

    Will it work with Marici...of course.

    The difficulty reconstructing this is that the Bodhisattvas have no recognizable use; one of them is Vajraguhya Mandala, the name of the text itself, which gives us a closed loop. Actually, that is a mantra, and it looks like the mantras are attached to a previous list, which results in the irony that Dhvajagrakeyura uses Vajraguhya Mandala mantra.

    If correct, the Bodhisattvas would be:


    samantabhadrā, tathāgatāṅka śī, ratirāgā, sādhumatī ca| vajradhāraṇyaḥ|

    ratnottamā, ratnolkā, dhvajāgrakeyūrā, hāsavatī ca| ratnadhāraṇyaḥ||

    vajrāmbujā, ādhāraṇī, sarvacakra, sahasrāvartā ca| dharmadhāraṇyaḥ||

    siddhottarā, sarvarakṣā, tejaḥpratyāhāriṇī, dharaṇīmudrā ca| sarvadhāraṇya iti||


    With the last group, the mantras begin with Guhya Sattvavajri, and make a corresponding circle of Vajris. Here, we can see that Vajrini is used for the Pancha Prajna circle, and Vajri for the Karma Family ring.

    Then it is only followed by mantras for the Four Inner Offerings. Still missing eight deities in there somewhere to make thirty-seven.

    The subject, to me, is a lot simpler than trying to cobble the texts together.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Guhyasamaja is like a bridging tantra from the above; it does not have dakinis, but, defines them as relevant to the Vidyadhara realm, and says to attract them. And so what it is, is probably the first attempt to write down Completion Stage.

    It is Father Tantra and so it is mainly teaching Upaya or Method, "how-to".

    Nothing in Buddhism deviates from this very much. It sets a basic standard, such as Muttering Om Ah Hum, whereas the more advanced tantras do things like add the Pithas.

    So there is an Alex Wayman study of it, which is not "The Guhyasamaja", but, he is a better translator than Conze, Cleary, etc., and has a funny habot of asking the right questions.


    Guhyasamaja uses the terminology that "the Four Yogas", i. e. the fourfold sealing activities of Vajrasattva, are divided from Six Limb Yoga, which is Mahasadhana, that is, Samadhi.

    Its Akshobya mandala produces an upgraded Vajrasattva. It says:

    Yamantaka and the others in the raktacakra are together with a prajna looking like themselves (or :
    ‘their own light’, (svabha) in order:—(1) Vajravetali, (2) Aparajita, (3) Bhrkuti, (4) Ekajati, (5) Visvavajri, (6) Visvaratni,
    (7) Visvapadma, (8) Visvakarma, (9) Gaganavajrini, (10) Dharanidhara.

    So it just stuffs Vetali in there right with nice little Bhrkuti. Vetali is Jnanadakini, so, we know she already knows Vajrabhairava Tantra, for example.

    That is also about the only Vajrini that can be found. The book uses the term Vajra = Object for Sparha Vajra and others. More frequently it uses Vajrin = Yogin skilled in this. Also it lacks Vijnana = sixth element and uses it more like Asta Vijnana, divided or split consciousness. It uses the seals of STTS without the later Yogini Tantra modification.

    Circle of Bliss says Sattvavajri is vigorously animated while Vajrasattva is rock-still.


    Some excerpts should help form the picture of Guhyasamaja. It begins with a hypostasis:


    The kula (family master) is the previously-mentioned Vajrasattva of Aksobhya and Samantabhadra, but holds a vajra , wheel, padma, bell, gem, sword, and embraces a Vajradhatvisvari looking like himself.



    The six hand symbols of Vajrasattva are set forth by Ratnakarasanti in the Pindikrta-sadhanopayika-vrtti-ratnavali (PTT.
    Vol. 62, p. 77-5) as the signs of the six families : “The vajra is
    the emblem of Aksobhya, being the intrinsic nature of contemp¬
    lating the ‘wheel of the doctrine* [dharmacakra) . The red lotus
    (padma) is the emblem of Amitabha, being the intrinsic nature
    of prajna not adhered to by the mud of lust, etc. The bell (is
    the emblem of Vajrasattva), being the intrinsic nature of prajna
    that is the purity of gestation ( bhava ). The ‘wish-granting
    gem* ( cintamani ) is the emblem of Ratnasambhava, being
    the knowledge which fulfills all hopes. The sword is the emblem
    of Amoghasiddhi, being the prajna (that severs) the corrupt
    practice.



    It appears that Vajrasattva is the
    yogin possibility of a person, as the essence of the Tathagatas,
    Aksobhya, and as their enlightenment-pledge, Samantabhadra;
    who has advanced, equivalent to the non-tantric progression of
    the Bodhisattva during the first seven stages, to the last three
    Bodhisattva stages, as indicated by his embracing VajradhatviSvari (‘Queen of the Diamond Realm’), who is drawn from the
    yogin’s own heart, according to the verse cited under nidana
    verse 33.



    When the four enjoyments (= four goddesses, Locana, etc.)
    have the great magical powers (<= five Tathagatas), they are
    called ‘Queen of Vidya* ( = Rupavajra, etc.). In the same
    circumstances, the Diamond Lords ( = the Bodhisattvas)
    are known as ‘All desire’ ( = Yamantaka, etc.).
    The mandala which the PrakdSikd refers to has an alternate
    form according to Tson-kha-pa’s Pancakrama commentary (PTT,
    Vol. 159, p. 74-5 to 75-1) called a ‘gana-cakra' (tshogs kyi dkvil
    bkhor). In its middle is the yogin skilled in the praxis. The
    first series is the four yosits which he places in the sequence of
    E, S, W, N, namely Bde mchog sgyu ma, L-ma-ho bde ba.
    Sgron ma, and Sasi.



    He should contemplate the blazing light of five rays as the
    yoga of the vajrin. Falling into the diamonds of his body,
    speech, and mind, it attains enlightenment.
    The actual experience so indicated belongs to the phase Stage
    of Completion with the praxis called ‘without prapanca*
    ( nisprapanca , '1'. spros bral), which involves the experience of
    the three light stages whether in the forward or reverse direction.


    The ‘subtle contemplation of the lower orifice’ is dis¬
    cussed at length in Tson-kha-pa’s commentary on the Pancakrama called “(idan rdzogs kyi dinar khrid” (PTT, Vol. 159,
    pp. 120 and 121). It is the ‘arcane body’ as a practice in the
    Stage of Completion; therefore it docs not involve experience
    of the three Lights, which is called ‘arcane mind’ (cittaviveka );
    rather, it is a preparation for that experience ol the Lights. The
    ‘lower orifice’ refers to the lower orifice of the central vein (the
    avadhuti ), which Tucci ( Tibetan Painted Scrolls, I, p. 241) identi¬
    fies as the perineum. In Tsoh-kha-pa’s work (op. cit., p. 120-2)
    the ‘lower orifice’ seems to be equivalent to the ‘middle of the
    gem’ (nor buhi dbtis) or ‘tip of the gem (nor baht rtse). In the
    male this is the root of the penis. The ‘subtle contemplation’
    (ibid., p. 120-4) involves contemplating at that spot a small
    solar disk and on it a ‘drop’ (thig le, S. bindu) of substance having
    three features : its color is blue; its shape is round; its size is no
    bigger than a tiny grain such as barley and seen as the form of
    one’s presiding deity (adhidera) brilliantly shining with five
    rays.


    the same spot seems to he called ‘site of the vajra’ (rdo rjehi sa
    gsi), which he explains as ‘the lotus of the woman which is the
    basis of the vajra (i.e. penis) in the sacral place’ (gsah gnas kyi
    rdo rjehi rten yum gyi padma).

    It is situated in the middle of the sacral place by the
    excrement orifice. Its name is ‘Great Unborn Root*.
    It is free from vijnana. The Knowledge-Body, selfless,
    is the best of life born there, and is said to have the best
    of animated beings.
    Tson-kha-pa’s commentary (based on Alamkakalasa’s) ex¬
    plains the ‘Great Unborn Root’ as the womb of the mother,
    the place where one takes birth. It is unconscious, insentient
    matter, hence free from vijnana. The Knowledge-Body of the
    Intermediate State, which is selfless because devoid of any ego
    substance that craves rebirth, so also devoid of the coarse body
    (the vipaka-kaya ) that undergoes states, is the best of life born
    there, and rides on the prana- wind which is the best of animated
    beings. (That discussion may point to the yoga-praxis of a
    woman as distinct from that of a man).

    The four seals arc the samayamudra of Mind, the
    dharmamudra of Speech, the mahamudra of Body, and the
    karmamudra of Action.


    Through the union of prajha and upaya the configuration
    of deities is generated —scaling with by four seals, conveying
    the pride of divinity.

    Yoga, atiyoga, and mahayoga occur by themselves; also
    vajrin, dakini, as well as any union of both, by
    themselves.
    Mchan ‘Yoga’ implies both yoga and anuyoga, and they plus
    atiyoga and mahayoga —the pratfnnna-prayoga of four yogas —occur
    by themselves for mdyddehin. Also vajrin , who is chief of the
    vijaya-mandala, plus the dak ini , plus any yoga (of both) occur
    themselves for mdyddehin. The two lines refer to the two samadhis
    of mdyddehin (possessor of Illusory Body).
    Prakasika on Yoga (Vol. 60, p. 295-2 : Those are the four yotjcir (?)
    of the ‘Stage of Generation’, whereby one accomplishes the
    samadhis of ‘Initial Praxis’, etc. In the present case, yoga is
    ‘means’ (upaya), anuyoga is ‘insight’ ( prajna ), atiyoga is entrance
    into their union; mahayoga is the attainment of great bliss ( main!-
    sukha) from their union.

    Besides, wc may interpret that the terms ‘yoga’, ‘atiyoga’,
    and ‘mahayoga’ of nidana verse 32, refer to the yoga mastery
    of the three lights, as is suggested by the synonyms of the lights
    in verse 25, sunya, atisunya, and mahasunya. Thus the yogin
    with such mastery can evoke automatically the dakini of sunya
    (aprajita), the vajrin of atisunya (supaya), or their
    androgynous union. Notice also the series of terms in the full
    title oi the Guhyasamajalantra : rahasya, atirahasva, mahaguhya,
    in which mahaguhya is understood to inchtdc both rahasya
    and atirahasya.



    ‘Yoga' is defined as the equipoise of insight and means.
    Whatever is devoid of intrinsic nature, is ‘insight’.
    ‘Means' is the characteristic of modes.
    Nagarjuna's commentary, p. .‘>-2, 3, 4, 5, illustrates insight,
    means, and their equipoise, first for each of his five stages {the
    pancakrama, Abhisambodhis); then for the terms cause, action, and fruit; next,
    for each of the six members of the SatSanga-yoga. In the case of
    the six members, the explanations go as follows :

    1. Insight is the sense organs and means is the sense
    objects. The yoga of their equipoise and enjoyment, is
    pratyahara.
    2. Insight is the sense organs and means is the Tathagatas. The yoga as their equipoise, is dhyana.

    3. Insight is paramartha-bodhicitta and means is samvrtibodhicitta. The yoga as their equipoise, involving the
    emanation and reunification of them in upper and lower
    sequence, is prana-ayama.

    4. When insight and means are as previous, the yoga of
    their equipoise, holding the bindu the size of a mustard
    grain in (or at) the three ‘tips of nose’, is dharana.

    5. When insight and means are the Tathagatas embraced
    by the goddesses, the yoga of emanating into the sky, as
    their equipoise, is anusmrti.

    6. When insight and means are the Dharmakaya and the
    Sambhogakaya, the yoga of joining them with the Nirmanakaya as their equipoise, is samadhi.


    Then all those Bodhisattvas (their doubts dispelled) became completely silent. Thereupon the Bhagavat who is all
    (five) Tathagata (families) took abode in the bhaga-s (the
    Buddhadharmodaya = the Clear Light) of the (four)
    diamond ladies belonging to (Vajradhara, who is) the
    vajra of the Body, Speech, and Mind of all the Tathagatas.

    Then MamakI, the wife of the ‘mind of all the Tathagatas'
    (-Aksobhya), implored Mahavajradhara in these passionate
    terms...

    Then Buddhalocana, the wife of the ‘body of all the Tathagatas’...

    Then the ‘diamond eye of body, speech, and mind’ (- Pandara),
    the wife of Lokesvara (■» Amitabha)...

    Then the wife ( — Arya-Tara) of the Samayavajra
    («Amoghasiddhi) of the Body, Speech, and Mind of all the
    Tathagatas...


    immersing himself in the samadhi called ‘diamond glory partaking of all
    desires’, remained silent, while making love to the wives of
    all the Tathagatas bv means of the samayacakra

    These goddesses simultaneously represent the Four Brahma Vihara.



    Having drawn forth the (lady) Prajnaparamita (from
    the Clear Light) dwelling in his own heart who is the
    mother of the Buddha, he should engage in union with
    her, because it is said (in the Sarvarahasyatantra, verse
    46):

    The great goddess dwelling in the heart, causing the
    yoga of the yogin, the mother of all the Buddhas, is called
    “Queen of the Diamond Realm’ [Vajradhatvishvari].


    Mamaki is doubled very weirdly: Akshobya's consort, and also that of Ratnasambhava where she is on a nine-faced emerald.

    It appears to make a sixth family of:

    Bell (ghanta)
    Vajradhatvisvar!
    Samantabhadra



    He should give (in marriage) his
    own mudra, the Queen ol the Diamond Realm* dwelling in
    the heart, belonging to the- 'three-syllable vajrins’, i.e. the
    yogins of Vairocana and so on, who have no eye to external
    women." Earlier in his commentary on Chapter XII, 76,
    ("Documents”), Gandrakirti explained the terms ‘Buddha’,
    Vajradharma , and Vajrasattva* as respectively the yogin of
    Vairocana, yogin of Amitahha, and yogin of Aksobhya.
    Regarding those females or mitdtti -s of the verse cited by
    Ar\ adrva, namely, the goddess, naga lady, and so on, Mchm
    hi’t't'L p. 118-2, mentions that she is the respective goddess of
    the three families, thus Locana for Yairocana’s yogin; Pandara
    for Amitahha’s yogin; and Mamaki foi Aksobhya's yogin.



    She ( = Vajradakini) who shines with a form like the
    (respective) Buddha is the (superior) occult success of
    body (grasping various forms), speech (grasping various
    sounds), and mind (gaining as desired). They ( — mun¬
    dane fairies, dakini) who glisten on the Jambu river are
    the resorts of inferior siddhi. The lord Vajradhara would
    be in the (superior )occult success of‘invisibility’( — united
    with the Vajradakini, a ‘together-bom female’). The
    lord Vidyadhara would be in the (inferior) occult success
    of Yaksaraja. etc. ( = united with the mundane fairies,
    the ‘field-born females’).


    He should engage in the training of mantra and mudra,
    in the imagining of mandala, etc., in the rites of bali and
    homa; and in each ease, ever ‘illusory-like*. He should
    engage in appeasing (deities), increasing (prosperity),
    dominating (the elementary spirits), overcoming (ini¬
    mical elements), and in whatever attracting (of dakini -s),
    and in each case, ‘rainbow-like’.


    So it has praised Vajradakini as some kind of special class.

    We figured that out with much difficulty; regardless of family, it is an enhanced breed.

    When I look at this as something composed ca. year 300, in a Prajnaparamita background where people felt the need to discuss the slight technical difference between a Sakridagamin and an Anagamin, that is pretty stupendous. Hard to understand. I think it would cause a lot of misleading to go around saying Vajradhatvishvari is the Queen of the Heart...it is only so if the heart is known esoterically. She is this, but, could also be described as the single way that consciousness can exit the crown center. The importance of the central wind from the heart to...elsewhere, is vital. So of course, the real Vajradhatvishvari "arises in stages", and is not really a name you can say or a thing you can praise, just something you can discover.

    I did not know that. I thought she was obscure. But she is a primary operative power from STTS through Guhyasamaja, driven mainly by the Four Activities expressed as rites--Mudra.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote One of the places Avatamsaka was spoken is Tusita Heaven.

    It is the place where Ekajati Pratibaddha Bodhisattvas dwell prior to birth in the life they become a Buddha:

    "First, dwelling in the Tusita Heaven, he proclaims the true Dharma. Having left the heavenly palace, he descends into his mother's womb."

    Indra Heaven is the last thing said to be related to form as we know it. Tusita is above this, and, is the lair of the Aditis. Aditi is Boundless, mother of the gods, representing a level that mentally thinks, but, does not, itself, work with lower matter.

    The Aditis or Tusitas are in a form or body which is only made of mental matter.

    That would be Body-less compared to ordinary consciousness. It is more like Illusory Body.
    Okay, if this is what you mean by mental only. I guess I find it confusing because it is not my normal mental state to be body-less or to be maybe illusory body, if that is what my clear body is, but I guess it is. I just wasn't connecting that up, even though I know it is not a physical state at all.

    Sorry for the late response, I had a technical project and those stop all else when they have bugs.

    I have to thank you for the previous description of the trials of Yeshe Tsogyal when she was learning Tummo. I have been having a problem with (probably) shingles for two days, and last night the thing that got me to put that feeling (relentless and very strong itching) aside and focus exclusively into my shaking was remembering her boils.

    Quote And, to be precise, there is not really "the Prajnaparamita Sutra", there is a Prajnaparamita genre of literature, for which I take the large version online as "the Sutra".

    But the Hrdaya Sutra with the Gate Gate mantra is not in it; different book.
    The mythology, though, is that they are all descended from one very long version. I take it as a given when I am thinking about it, that at some point in Khotan, they had a very long version of Prajnaparamita, a very long version of Book of Zambasta, and a very long version of Avatamsaka, and these formed somewhat of a core for them. Khotan is where the versions in other languages came from. They would get material from Kashmir, or create it, and then they were the place where it got turned into all the other language versions, Chinese, Uyghur, Sogdian, etc. Nowadays, the place is where the largest of the Uighur detention camps is, along with being the underground test site for Chinese nuclear weapons. Sad.

    Quote 150 Lines comes at p. 184 in the Conze translation, and I am not really able to find Seventeen Vishuddhi Pada before Vajrapani casting a mandala.

    It is one of the few articles considered a tantric Prajnaparamita text. It is considered the first intsersection of esoteric tenets with a mandala.

    Here is 8000 Lines on one web page, which may not help us here.
    Thanks for this.

    Quote Here is some stuff from the Niguma book. Shangpa Kagyu is based on Vajradhara as a Guru to Niguma and Sukhasiddhi. He is also counted as a Guru to Nairatma, Cinnamasta, and Jnanadakini in those lineages such as Vajrabhairava Tantra.

    They say that Vajradhara is the Sixth Family although he has Seven Aspects. If he is a type of Fruitional Vajrasattva, that is why these two are often used interchangeably and would not generally be seen as breaking the format of a Six Family Wheel. I am not sure that I am saying there is a Seventh Family, if it hasn't any other members, but there is a Seventh Consciousness.

    Most of this is not "Niguma says" but is in the book:

    It can be determined that the fruition aspect of tantra is twofold: the actual fruition and the nominal results. The actual
    fruition is that of supreme Vajradhara, the powerful state of
    mastery over all family types. The nominal results are those
    of the illusory body and of an ordinary being who has realized primordial unity. The latter case is the flawed embodiment of one who is still on the path of training, while the
    former is the flawless embodiment of timeless awareness of
    one who has reached the path of no more training.
    Yes, I am aware of this (I have the book), thanks. This is where I got two impressions, perhaps they are not accurate:

    1) Vajradhara is not embodied
    2) Only an extremely accomplished person can communicate with Vajradhara and it is a mark of accomplishment of bodhisattva pretty much.

    Personally -- and this is from my experiences and only such reading as I had to do to try to understand them as they happened -- I would make a pretty big distinction between illusory body, if that might be roughly what my clear body is, and rainbow body, which I have been 'allowed to experience' in a limited way by seeing someone with a rainbow body (Mandarava), and by the experience (not done by me so much as done to me by the Dakinis) of the body all made of lightning and light, which was shown to me, a big difference from 'achieving' it, which is way out of my league.

    Again, personally, they don't perceive the same at all. One is far more mundane than the other.

    Quote The vase empowerment is the eleventh,
    the secret empowerment the excellent twelfth,
    the wisdom-timeless awareness the thirteenth,
    thus the tathagata is the fourteenth.
    Each ground for each empowerment.
    Sarah Harding had made a point that the number of bhumi went up over time, and that perhaps it was always several higher than one achieved when one achieved the current highest one. There are 10 in the Avatamsaka and it is supposed to be the original document on the subject. But there were quickly more over time.

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