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Thread: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    It is just one big one, it is just Para Shakti, and this is what I sense as a whole or in total, but this is not the same as being aware of or holding all her full powers on her own plane. It is more like a physical feeling of One Life which is able to unveil its works slowly. A small one of these can transform what appears to me, world, or set of phenomena.

    A One Life sense of whole or total, as in feeling that everything is whole? I can see why this would be a Shakti feeling.
    Well, I guess I mean something like as a body or organism, I sense one overall Shakti "of me", which by extension is part of the same One Life everywhere, but I do not personally perceive that part. It does not personally contain the details or moods of more specific shaktis, it impels them into activity when their opportunity comes, like flying different flags in the same windstream.

    But this really relates to the Nirmana sphere, only, and so she may not be exactly the same in the Akanistha or in the Formless planes.

    Within the Nirmana, a specific shakti such as Parasol or Vajradakini of the head can change everything quickly from mundane chaos into her particular domain. That is by the power of mantra. That is what the Nirmana field is for.

    Yes, Vidya would begin as any kind of mundane knowledge, up to the Vidyadhara or Mahavidya level. Abhi has more of a sense of "taking possession and mastery of", such as in initiation or Abhiseka. It would be redundant to call this "ceremonial sprinkling" since Seka is already the act of sprinkling, the Abhi is for powerful purposes. And so Abhi Jna is a jnana or type of experientially-acquired knowledge at a high plane, like the initiation is supposed to mark you at a higher stage.

    I am not sure how any kind of "likh-" fits the mantra, even taken as "drawn a picture of" or something to that effect, and although it seems standard in a relatively well-known mantra, I haven't seen that part explained.

    From a post:

    While the word ‘Likhe’ is quite well known to all and sundry as meaning to scratch or write, what is of less knowledge is its meaning of ‘Uniting with a female’ or its meaning of coming together of heavenly bodies. Perhaps it is a mantra to unite an elephant headed person who refuses to budge from his tapasya with a female whose anger and passion are impossible to control. In any case it is an excellent mantra to ensure conjugal bliss.

    Or an Indian linguistic site:

    The meaning of the mantra is “One who’s in union with hastipiśāci".

    Those are the only suggestions I can find, so, that actually comes as definition eight under Likh, and I ignored it since that doesn't seem to be the case here, "to unite sexually with a female". The sadhana definitely says he is trying to. To me, it means focus on what the "try" is. He could be accused of using candy to lure children. So we need to get it a little more mature than that. He is offering the Sweets and trunking her sweet spot in the process of using his great strengths about commanding Prana and the Word or Voice.

    Again in the Buddhist sense I would interpret him as Embrace, if for no other reason, nothing ever shows him in Union. Jambhala scores bunches of times. But there would be continuity if a charged-up Ganapati clears the ground for a Jambhala or other rite that goes into it.

    One could ignore hasti "in hand" and say Hasti is Elephant. Then it would say "Elephant Pisaci, I am trying to unite with you". That makes a bit more sense than saying "pisaci in my hand, I am in union with you", considering this united moment only exists in an implied sense. The other argument would be how the partners are still united and in orgasmic bliss while not being in physical union.

    If Ganapati gets shaktis called Rddhi and Siddhi, Buddhism will at least give Sutra-based explanations on them.

    If Rddhi is Matangi, then she would only be found in the Pisaci mantra or as part of Janguli, unless one also admits Ucchista or other Ganapatis associated with her. Because she problematically appears in one of the oldest Buddhist sutras before there was such a thing as Mahavidyas, and seems to represent the Dattatreya lineage, then, like Tara or Cinnamasta, she may be less Hindu and more Buddhist, appearances notwithstanding.

    In any case, I find her not only approachable, but immanent. I am pretty sure I also need the Ganapati to do what he says he does, or else, I will simply observe Matangi in great beatitude without making the right effort. I have to go slower than I would want. Due to the Mleccha customs, I am probably going to get kicked around like a leaf in the wind for several days in a debilitating manner.


    If you expand his full catalog, the author of the Marutgana scientific article is rather strange. He began immediately by posting an article on Black Hole--White Hole axis of creation including a Black Sun article and numerous things connecting it to Rg Veda.

    After that, for some reason he continued posting forms and legal documents, but, it is a rather hefty swing at astro-occultism. He says a black hole is not destructive but just grinds energy into a generic form, which issues from the White Hole, which is Vasudhara. As well as emitting the visible cosmos, the white hole produces a Black Sun which is symbolized in the Moon, i. e., its ability to go dark, and itself is synchrotron radiation and dark energy.

    The original, biggest white hole is called Mahi, and it allows limitless others.

    It is interesting, I am not sure I would spend much time scrutinizing it one way or the other in terms of accuracy, but the underlying point that something like a Black Hole of Pralaya and a Black Sun of invisible energy during manifestation are both natural, normal forms of Parabrahm, is there.
    Last edited by shaberon; 25th November 2020 at 09:20.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Well, I guess I mean something like as a body or organism, I sense one overall Shakti "of me", which by extension is part of the same One Life everywhere, but I do not personally perceive that part. It does not personally contain the details or moods of more specific shaktis, it impels them into activity when their opportunity comes, like flying different flags in the same windstream.

    But this really relates to the Nirmana sphere, only, and so she may not be exactly the same in the Akanistha or in the Formless planes.

    Within the Nirmana, a specific shakti such as Parasol or Vajradakini of the head can change everything quickly from mundane chaos into her particular domain. That is by the power of mantra. That is what the Nirmana field is for.
    So it seems shakti before it becomes more specific, except that you specifically call it Nirmana, which seems to imply the most specific type of shakti.

    Quote In any case, I find her not only approachable, but immanent. I am pretty sure I also need the Ganapati to do what he says he does, or else, I will simply observe Matangi in great beatitude without making the right effort. I have to go slower than I would want. Due to the Mleccha customs, I am probably going to get kicked around like a leaf in the wind for several days in a debilitating manner.
    Mleccha customs? Mleccha isn't a term for foreigners in general, it's specifically a term from way back when about Muslim invaders -- most specifically the Ghaznavids and the Qarakhanids. Unless you fit that bill, the PTB probably aren't going to kick you around for such customs.

    Quote After that, for some reason he continued posting forms and legal documents, but, it is a rather hefty swing at astro-occultism. He says a black hole is not destructive but just grinds energy into a generic form, which issues from the White Hole, which is Vasudhara. As well as emitting the visible cosmos, the white hole produces a Black Sun which is symbolized in the Moon, i. e., its ability to go dark, and itself is synchrotron radiation and dark energy.

    The original, biggest white hole is called Mahi, and it allows limitless others.
    Interesting theory. I suppose people are somewhat free to theorize about exactly what a black hole does when it absorbs things, given that it will leak energy because of quantum effects (Hawking) and that what it leaks presents a conundrum if it passed the event horizon with extant quantum entanglements. So far, nobody has an answer for what happens, if it doesn't destroy it's not a black hole, if it destroys then what it leaks is still attached to states so it isn't destroyed. But I don't know that it would be a good idea to tangle with one.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    So it seems shakti before it becomes more specific, except that you specifically call it Nirmana, which seems to imply the most specific type of shakti.
    In a sense, yes, for Rupa Skandha or the perceptional unit which works through the whole body.

    The work or purpose of the whole body is the Nirmana field.

    The only terms I know express it as when the Nirmana reaches a certain level of pristine emanations from mantras, initiations occur.

    In the tantras it is taught as the first chakra situated in the abdomen, and the emanations produce Activity (which at a higher level becomes Activity of Durga or Kalratri).

    The Activities are extremely fundamental because it explains how to open the Gatekeepers. And so--it is allright whether you want to use the solar plexus or dantian, but for its guardian goddesses, their heads are Cuckoo, Goat, Lion, Snake. Here, the Key gave associations of Planet: Jupiter, Color: Light Blue, Principle: Auric Egg, Skandha: Samjna (perception), Sister: Katyayani. This is the Puranas and Indian astrology that happened to index here, however those Buddhist Gatekeepers are specific to the "navel origin":

    The cuckoo's call is the sound of the heartbeat and is the beginning of the solar plexus wishing to purify its prana for the heart.

    The goat ruminates over experience and finds the best parts to use.

    The Lion is placed with Amitabha and is purified speech, distilled prana going from the solar plexus to the throat. The use of throat energy is what accesses subtle mental spheres, and allows the heart to operate the secret compartments of the brain.

    Snake is kundalini and holds the Bell of Prajna, being the chakra's full operation with pure and balanced prana allowing the mysterious kundalini to proceed to the next stage.


    These Activities take place mostly either due to the use of Mantra, or at Initiations. All Four Kayas are said to have stages of perfecting the Mind, Body, Voice, and Wisdom of itself (Four Seals or Mudra). If Emanations are not pristine, these Emanational Rites must occur until the condition is reached. This is the cultivation of purified prana or Perfume. Once a set of Gatekeepers is placed into order, they guard one's siddhis and samaya.

    Then I would start in the Nirmana Kaya in the Body trying to use the Four Activities to get four kinds of seals. This is a type of power output so it is a Shakti. Then I would go to Voice which is already up to Pranayama, and then there is Mind which in this sense would be Citta Chakra.

    And so their Hand Symbols or Weapons are Hook, Noose, Chain, and Bell. That is what the mantra is based on:

    Om Vajrankusi Akarsayah Jah, Om Vajrapasi Pravesaya Hum, Om Vajrasphota Bandhaya Vam, Om Vajravese Vasikuru Hoh.

    "Om, may the diamond hook attract, Jah! Om, may the diamond noose draw in, Hum! Om, may the diamond chain tie, Vam! Om, may the diamond bell subdue, Hoh!"

    Jah is to invite, Hum is to make firm or remain, Vam is to mingle indivisibly, and Hoh is to enjoy.

    These have slightly different fashions in Peaceful and Wrathful purposes. The Gatekeepers are Wrathful so the Snake is subjugating, moreso in the sense of Destroying. The same Bell power in a Peaceful rite is Bliss and Prajna. The negative male counterpart of Activities may be described as Four Faults of the Catuskoti. As soon as any extreme limb arises, they have to shear it off.


    I know this much more than I practice it due to the adverse environment. That is part of why Ucchistas are very relevant to my own timing or life cycle, it is something they fix.

    In a large Indian catalog there is an instance of Matta Matangi:

    Matta-matangi-lilakara-dandaka [also called Amba-stava, or
    Ambika-stava] by Satyanarayana Sarman.

    And from an article using Amba presumably Matangi with Ganapati discusses Hook and Noose which it calls Tattvas:

    "Amba holds a noose (pAsha) and an Ankusha (goad) in her lotus-hands, which respectively represent the gross manifestations of two Chitta-Vrttis in Jiva called rAga and dweSha."

    Sumbha becomes our Nadir deity with Serpent Noose:

    "Shumbha, representing ahamkara, orders eight armies of demons representing aShTa pAsha-s, to fight Amba, preventing the jIva from realizing swaswarUpA. But when jIva seeks refuge under kAtyAyanI, the great mother, she manifests as eight vidyA vrtti-s (aShTa mAtrikA-s), liberating one from pAshAShTaka. Her eight hands and the weapons held therein are meant to sever the aShTa pAsha-s."


    "In worldly terms, the usage of a noose and goad are primarily in controlling an elephant. Elephant represents something which is huge, powerful and not easily controllable. These two Ayudhas are common between Amba and Mahaganapati. More so in the case of the particular form of Ganapati called Ucchishtha Mahaganapati, who sports the same Ayudha-s as Sri Lalita. These two i.e. kAma and krodha, are powerful and uncontrollable like a madagaja. Poison can be cured only through poison. She uses her pAsha to bind the mind of the upAsaka to her lotus feet. Anurakti in the external word is rAga, but the same when turned towards Amba, becomes Bhakti (parAnuraktirIshware). Through her ankusha or the force of sAtvika krodha, she creates disillusionment towards the external world by granting nityAnitya vastu viveka, and grants chitta shuddhi. Thus, using the same forces constructively, she subdues them in us. Krodhasya janako kAmaH – Desire is the father of Hatred as unfulfilled desires lead to frustration, anger and finally hatred. Thus, by pulling our minds away from external world towards herself, she destroys rAga and thus automatically subdues Krodha as well. The vice versa is also true. Amba's Krodha or anger destroys ignorance and thus both rAga and dwesha.

    There are two kAma-s. One is kAma or manmatha and the other is mahAkama or MahA Kameshwara. Kamakshi is associated with both of them and they operate through her powers. But she is avidyA swarUpiNi in her former association and vidyA swarUpiNi in the latter. Thus, it is she who causes both attachment and liberation, based on one's qualification. The same is expressed in the name bhayakrid bhayanAshanaH in Sri Vishnu Sahasranama. Thus, to the non-devoted and the ignorant, the pAsha and ankusha lead to attachment and hatred. But when one surrenders the lotus feet of Sri Kamakshi, these same very forces are used to turn oneself inwards, towards HER and thus become tools for spiritual advancement. Purva ChatuHshati described pAsha and ankusha as representing rAga and dwesha, but uttara chatushati now describes the two as representing iccha and jnana shakti-s."

    Shaktis are an inverse flow of malevolent forces.

    It gets to the six units of Lakshmi's dual divine Gunas along with a type of Paramasva or perhaps Aswins:

    "From Amba's pAsha arose a vidyA called ashwArUDhA and from ankusha, a deity named samptkarI. There are two mantras for Sampatkari, one a three lettered mantra and the other is six-lettered. The former is a part of uttarAmnAya and latter belongs to UrdhwAmnAya. What we are more interested in is the six-lettered vidyA which grants the wealth of six virtues: jnAna, shakti, bala, aishwarya, vIrya and tejaH, by destroying the six enemies (ShaDvairi - kAma krodha etc). Ashwa-s refer to the senses or Indriyas and riding on these horses in the manas whose adhiShThAtri is AshwarudhA. By upAsanA of SampatkarI and ashwarUDhA, who are Amba's anga devata-s, one is freed from rAga and dweSha, resulting in chitta shuddhi required to comprehend the swarUpa of Sri Lalita as described by the Vedanta Vakya Tattvamasi.

    Thus, sporting pAsha and ankusha in her hands, this is what Amba indicates: Holding rAga and dweSha is my hands, I assure freedom from these to those who take refuge in me."

    That is the nature of Bhagavati, i. e. the Vada or explanation of the enjoyment of those six virtues, Bhaga.

    In their view, Dvesa is Rage which is of a momentary nature, whereas Krodha is Hatred which is deep-seeded and ongoing. Either one is a name of Vajra Family in Buddhism.

    We may not use these symbols exactly the same way, but, the idea of Raga--Lotus Family related to Iccha Shakti and Dvesa--Vajra Family related to Jnana Shakti is there. It is interesting since if you look at the twenty or so main seed syllables, Buddhist ones are usually pretty much the same as the Hindu set, with certain exclusions. Noose is at least similar in its beginning with Sumbha, and then also Janguli and Aparajita. Of course, the same main Hook and Noose set is Kurukulla. Hook becomes Manohara Vasudhara and goes on to Takkiraja, is one of the main evolutions in the Sakya Three Reds.

    The idea of emotional fuel and transformation is almost exactly the same thing Buddhist or not. Usually it is the same set of Sins. In the article they are trying to achieve Citta Shuddhi versus Citta Vrittis. This is like "Mind Washing" in the good way.

    The title Amba or Amma could be applied to Lakshmi, Manasa, etc., although here it seems distinctly Matangi in her role as part of Kamakshi. This is perhaps more mature since it is actual bliss play versus her more southerly forms, that is, away from Kamakshi--Kamarupa, Guhawati, Assam.

    It is bewildering since Sarasvati is supposed to be a chaste student, and yet seems to be an input for one of the most sexualized poses, Sukhasiddhi. It is possible it is only the influence of Manjushri that gets her going. Possibly the important thing is that she goes through the degrees of approach. Even if Janguli and Matangi are tantric, neither is shown in union, whereas Sarasvati has ribald escapades with Manjushri all over the place.

    Because Janguli is enfolded into Krsna Yamari Tantra, which is a form of Manjushri, she perhaps is contributing to Sarasvati's enjoyment.

    Either Manjushri or Avalokiteshvara is able to handle Manmatha.

    Manjushri also appears to show degrees of approach to wrath or union. His first form is Manjuvajra; secondly:

    With the name Vagisvara, Manjushri represents all five exoteric Dhyani Buddhas. It also has mantric identity to his Vadiraj (Lion) form. Manjushri--Vadiraj is accompanied by two deities, Sudhana-kumara and the ferocious Yamari. Vadiraj is Peacemaker, or mediator of disputes.

    His third form continues with the Lion, but appears to be adding the Sword:

    Vajratiksna is the Deity name, and it would use an Amitabha-related form such as Vadisimha, "(Invincible) Lion of Speech" or "Lion of Disputes". That form is invoked into oneself, and Devi Sarasvati (or if needed wrathful and secret Vajra Sarasvati) is conjured ahead, slightly left. The near-heart-mantra of Vajratiksna, "All natures are intrinsically pure like the abhava (not formed or produced)", agrees with the Purity of the Lotus Family.

    The Mandala of Vadisimha or Manjushri as Vajratikshna (Sharp Vajra, or of the Sword he usually carries). Here the Manjushri is single-faced and two-armed. The Tibetan tradition of this Manjushri depicts him in the company of Devi Sarasvati. Sarasvati is Vach Devi or Luminous Speech.

    And so there is one kind of Vadisimha where the weapon is somewhat passive:






    Manjushri with Lion-like Speech. He is Orange, Peacefully seated on a Lion. He does Dharmachakra with both hands, utpalas arise, one with a book, the other a sword, arises from Hrih. He is behind Sapphire Sarasvati who is half crouching and both are crowned with Akshobya and have Om Ah Hum in their three places. His seed is Dhih and hers is Hrih. Their mantra will merge him with our practice Prajnaparamita:

    Om hrih dhih mame tipasvara svasti, Manjushri mum hrih Prajna Vardhani hrih dhih svaha

    In a prior use of his name, Vadiraj was a disciple of Hayagriva (incarnation of Vishnu).


    Then he brandishes it:








    This is what Namasangiti advises before the next is Yamantaka or Vajrabhairava. That would be his fourth mandala or practice, which happens to match Kama Loka as the fourth plane, as well as having that as its main subject. After this, his last three mandalas could be summarized as Tri-kaya.

    Manjushri has a complete peaceful intertwining with Sarasvati--Prajnaparamita--Kubjika of the Picu or Prajnavardhani mantra and also a wrathful one with blue Sarasvati who becomes Vetali with Vajrabhairava. Again the instructions on this kind of form say to use Devi, Krodha, or Vajra, as needed. There are only a precious few sadhanas which actually refer to placing another deity in front of you conversation-style. And so then Manjushri and Sarasvati are much like Brahma Viraj and Vach Viraj, they seem to intend a lot of mileage using the Voice with at least peaceful and wrathful styles that has outer and inner meanings.

    That must be something like what Matangi is doing by having these "brushes up" to Ganapati.

    Manjushri--Mars and Ganapati are brothers, more or less, sort of, like two kinds of prodigals, Agni Tattva and Indra Tattva, issued from the central reality.

    So perhaps mostly for those of us who are not that great at visualization, if you look at the Gatekeepers' motion, and the stages of approach of Sarasvati or Matangi, you will get a kind of pressure wave made of mind, heat, and wind. That is what will begin Tapas.

    Green Lion Mahalakshmi is crowned with Yamantaka, meaning, "complete with the charnel ground requisite". Even though she is still just a simple form, she is above Vajrabhairava or other equivalent of Trailokyavijaya.

    The fifth Manjushri is going to take Dhih from the previous practices, and fling it into the Arapacana dharani realm; sixth, he shows that the purpose of Vajradhatu or Six Family Wheel is Maha Vajradhatu, i. e. complete Sambhogakaya, and finally Manjughosha has all the asterisms, lunar mansions, usnisas, and so on, up to its unique Dharanis--Paramitas.

    That is what Namasangiti does. Its final expression is a Yoga mandala, although it arguably includes union if fully attached to Guhyasamaja Manjuvajra and so on. That is why I pause a bit when said that Blue Sarasvati is with Ganapati. She is with Manjushri. This more or less has to be a specifically Buddhist difference to her. To me, it sounds a lot like the "body-less empty niche consort" of Vairocana or wherever Prajnaparamita went, is actually filled by Sarasvati in her new, unpleasant mode of Vetali. Manjushri enters union with a Zombie, which itself is a few degrees lower than the Pisaci, which is a Tramen or Wrathful Bodhisattva in the sense of Vajra--Object or Objects of Mundane Consciousness. The Gauris, comparatively, are the Ayatanas or Sense-Faculties of Mundane Consciousness. Therefor the Gauris are forever inseparable from the inner you, whereas Tramen appear externally and are subject to motion and change. These are the Wrathful aspect of the Offering Goddesses and the Sparsha Vajra, Dharmadhatu Vajra, etc.

    You get an empty, body-less consort, then a fresh dead thing, decaying to a skeleton and so on into an ethereal vampiric devil.

    Now if that is a random one, you are going to be in a lot of trouble, but if you hold on to what the teachings are saying and dominate it with Peace, then the corresponding Kamakshi or Bliss nature will rise in step with the dead or undead thing in strength.

    That is why, the better you can see it, you do *not* want that dead thing to carry any of its own karmic wind.

    It is the Grasped or Pranava Vajradakini or Varnani, sort of like the dark Om and alphabet.

    It is never not what it is. That is why there is the Queen of Space and Pacifying the Mamos. It frequently takes only a tiny spark to set off a cascade of Vrttis leading to slaughters and wars.

    The teachings do not exactly seem to grant the devotee a charming, beautiful consort to enjoy, it seems to be like Katyayani says, can only be won by a fight. She is a high standard of beauty. If we look at what Manjushri is saying, it is like the consort has to get mad, disappear, and croak, before revealing her full Sambhogakaya potential.

    I have Gazed at deities a fair bit, I have never Touched or i. e. Embraced one, and Ganapati and Manjushri seem to be saying that going through the second two stages is a lot more than a simple physical change of position. There is a lot of Wrath and Kama Loka and Cemeteries to burn out. The end result is like a scintillating voice combined with mastery of Rupa Skandha. That does not encompass the whole Path, but sounds like a pretty drastic change compared to my usual experience.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote In the tantras it is taught as the first chakra situated in the abdomen, and the emanations produce Activity (which at a higher level becomes Activity of Durga or Kalratri).

    The Activities are extremely fundamental because it explains how to open the Gatekeepers. And so--it is allright whether you want to use the solar plexus or dantian, but for its guardian goddesses, their heads are Cuckoo, Goat, Lion, Snake. Here, the Key gave associations of Planet: Jupiter, Color: Light Blue, Principle: Auric Egg, Skandha: Samjna (perception), Sister: Katyayani. This is the Puranas and Indian astrology that happened to index here, however those Buddhist Gatekeepers are specific to the "navel origin":

    The cuckoo's call is the sound of the heartbeat and is the beginning of the solar plexus wishing to purify its prana for the heart.
    Not understanding how you're using these here. For me, dantian is below the navel, solar plexus is up close to the ribcage, and the root (Muladhara) would be down at the perineum.

    Quote It is bewildering since Sarasvati is supposed to be a chaste student, and yet seems to be an input for one of the most sexualized poses, Sukhasiddhi. It is possible it is only the influence of Manjushri that gets her going. Possibly the important thing is that she goes through the degrees of approach. Even if Janguli and Matangi are tantric, neither is shown in union, whereas Sarasvati has ribald escapades with Manjushri all over the place.
    Yes, this is bewildering.
    Quote Manjushri with Lion-like Speech. He is Orange, Peacefully seated on a Lion. He does Dharmachakra with both hands, utpalas arise, one with a book, the other a sword, arises from Hrih. He is behind Sapphire Sarasvati who is half crouching and both are crowned with Akshobya and have Om Ah Hum in their three places. His seed is Dhih and hers is Hrih. Their mantra will merge him with our practice Prajnaparamita:
    This and the second thangka are also bewildering. I had thought we had determined that Matangi was a the blue one with the lute. Now we have Sarasvati blue with her lute in conjunction with Manjushri? This looks as tantra as one can get.

    Quote Now if that is a random one, you are going to be in a lot of trouble, but if you hold on to what the teachings are saying and dominate it with Peace, then the corresponding Kamakshi or Bliss nature will rise in step with the dead or undead thing in strength.
    I don't understand how Bliss is associated with "undead", it seems like it is bound up in, and inseparable from shakti, which is life.

    I went through a jeweled palace last night, which is a new one for me. The sutras/tantras are full of them, I've never experienced one before, though. It was about embodiment, and I wasn't sure how being in such a place taught embodiment, but it seemed to work.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)

    I don't understand how Bliss is associated with "undead", it seems like it is bound up in, and inseparable from shakti, which is life.

    I went through a jeweled palace last night, which is a new one for me. The sutras/tantras are full of them, I've never experienced one before, though. It was about embodiment, and I wasn't sure how being in such a place taught embodiment, but it seemed to work.
    The Gatekeepers I listed are for the Nirnamana Chakra, which isn't a "thing", since it is just the navel "area", whichever chakra one uses, Svadisthana or Manipur. And so for instance, the Cuckoo symbol, that *is* the sound of the heart, but as heard within from the core of the body, with the corresponding decision that *this* connection is superior to pouring the prana out through the autonomic system and the limbs, etc.; another reason I like the solar plexus is dues to being the "second brain", i. e. reflex message center for the lower body. And so this is similar to martial arts or other training which re-conditions reflexes, although it is more psychological.

    Vetali or Rolang ma is a strange symbol, especially since it comes from monks doing Karmamudra under the argument that sex with a corpse is not with a person, so they make, according to Tson kha pa, a Golden Zombie.

    And, I am not sure either why exactly this type of thing pops up in tantric symbolism.

    Vetali is like a herald of the overall Gauri class, and the Pisaci are above them.

    The more standards terms for a human ghost would be Preta or Bhut. Bhut or Elementary is practically the same word as Bhuta or Element. And so for instance the Four Kings are a type of Preta or Bhut, because they are ghosts.

    The Kama Loka is, of course, filled with ghosts.

    The Buddhist Vajra Kaya is not like a superior ghost, it is more like washing off all the lower psychological principles that animate or compose ghosts.

    Maunjushri is Sarasvati, just male and female of each other. Many of Manjushri's rites specifically use Sarasvati; it is possible he may have a close relationship with some other deity, but these two are the main pair. Yamantaka and all the Yamaris and Vajrabhairavas are forms of Manjushri.

    Matangi is Sarasvati, but in a particular use, application, or practice, by a different name, which is a Pisaci, is an aspect of Janguli, and is a counterpart of Ganapati or particularly of Ucchista Ganapati. She can be blue, green, or red, possibly other colors, however the Ucchista Sumukhi form is Red on Red and corresponds to Red Ganapati.

    Blue Ganapati is more like Bhutadamara, and white is more like Amritakundalin.

    And so there are dead things in there, which is a type of warning.

    It is like the Gatekeepers place Seals, which protect one's siddhis and samaya, which makes this probably the closest definition of "power level". And so if I take the solar plexus or dantian and turn it inwards, once I become good at it, they seal it as a behavior, and I am going to keep going through more and more things or talents, until this achieves the whole Kama Loka.

    Wrathful Deities are something like a question of stability.

    When unstable, they are wrath, and delusion, and so forth, but we want them to act more like wheels on a reversed wind.

    And so when it becomes possible to really see the by-products or the baleful influences of what these, and the Nagas, Planets, etc., can cause, it could be incredibly disturbing.

    It is the negative or objective image and it is in the Talas or Underworlds.

    It is constantly being made by everyone, and if you go to hell, it means your consciousness has slipped under its domain.

    But it is really just a wrathful weapon, so to speak, that we want to hold in the way Amba is depicted as holding her weapons, transcendentally.

    Koothoomi was forbidden from giving this doctrine until 1883.

    In practice, we may emphasize a system of seven, but actually these are doubled to a total of Fourteen Worlds or Lokas, because each of the seven reflects into a Tala.

    The Tala is non-different than what is perceived as earthiness towards the core of the earth, and the death and decay of charnel grounds, and so on.

    Such an image is what people ignorantly attach themselves to, is Mara.

    This is why it would be relatively useless to celebrate Maravijaya as an ideal, and, instead, much more relevant to hold it as a degree of seer-ship which is not grasping.

    We liberate ourselves from its clutch by realizing the image is Equal to Space.

    And so in the Namasangiti, Manjushri perhaps could be described as girding himself to see and deal with the actual Vetali on her own plane, which is perhaps the Tala corresponding to any plane. And then if we look at what corresponds to a few verses from Namasangiti, it would be a substantial trend of sadhanas which generate Manjushri's main attributes as operative powers. One is summoning the Lion and Sword through the Prajnaparamita Sutra, which itself is interlocked to Sarasvati, and these two have a complex interaction based around the complex syllable Dhih, in their peaceful roles.

    That is what it suggests to do, while girding one's strength and adding a Wrathful practice by degrees.

    So I think it is pretty much telling you to get a lot of this under your belt prior to Vajrabhairava or other Trailokya Vijaya equivalent.

    To me it would be simple, since I already have a bond to normal Sarasvati, it would already work. However since Sarasvati--Manjushri begin as representing ordinary learning, and Prajnaparamita is a Sutra, I personally or currently am being forced to handle it in an unusual and more Tantric manner in Elephant caste, which is--not exactly trumpeted majestically--but sort of hidden in the ruins, it is ready to roll as Ganapati or more specifically Ucchista Ganapati and Matangi.

    I cannot quite make a crisp dividing line where the original Sarasvati ends and Matangi begins, even if I claim to experience a little of them both. I can say they work differently.

    Jewel Palace would usually be thought of as Deity Residence on Mt. Meru. With all of these components, it is more like we are trying to make a real operating environment, which Entering the Mandala means the deities are summoned to populate it. That is why the "symbols" are important. A mandala is like an expanded chakra. Therefor I would guess the palace you experienced is the collapsed or compressed version of the visualized thing that would be used in the rites, which are really on the Fixed Cross or so, i. e., your "personal palace" would be the central emanating point of the Celestial Palace.

    I cannot be sure if that is really what is happening, but, that is how the visual symbol is supposed to work.
    Last edited by shaberon; 27th November 2020 at 20:00.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote ...with the corresponding decision that *this* connection is superior to pouring the prana out through the autonomic system and the limbs, etc.; another reason I like the solar plexus is dues to being the "second brain", i. e. reflex message center for the lower body. And so this is similar to martial arts or other training which re-conditions reflexes, although it is more psychological.
    My solar plexus is very complicated, it has been trained very hard by the Dakinis, it can start to vibrate or to pull hard in in an instant. If I can get it joined to this "mass" that comprises the nipples, the space between them, and the part below that in the center down to the edge of my ribcage (at the xyphoid process), and the "costals" (the intercostals and subcostals that flex the ribs on the sides for breathing) and then once it starts to move press to get it to connect deep inside at my dantian, then I kind of liquify inside. If I use it otherwise, it sometimes becomes like a cliff at the edge of my ribcage.


    Quote Vetali or Rolang ma is a strange symbol, especially since it comes from monks doing Karmamudra under the argument that sex with a corpse is not with a person, so they make, according to Tson kha pa, a Golden Zombie.

    And, I am not sure either why exactly this type of thing pops up in tantric symbolism.
    I'd be fine with the argument that sex with a corpse is not with a person, it's the sex with a corpse thing at which one might look askance ;-). In my shaking, if there is sex and a corpse, then I'm usually the corpse.

    Quote It is like the Gatekeepers place Seals, which protect one's siddhis and samaya, which makes this probably the closest definition of "power level". And so if I take the solar plexus or dantian and turn it inwards, once I become good at it, they seal it as a behavior, and I am going to keep going through more and more things or talents, until this achieves the whole Kama Loka.
    This sounds very much like the teach, frustrate, test sequence that I am subject to. They show me I can do something, I spend a lot of effort making every possible mistake before learning it, I pass the test and they make it accessible with a tweak/switch (it feels like I'm tweaking a spot inside me, and the result is like flipping a switch). And they've usually moved on again.

    Quote To me it would be simple, since I already have a bond to normal Sarasvati, it would already work. However since Sarasvati--Manjushri begin as representing ordinary learning, and Prajnaparamita is a Sutra, I personally or currently am being forced to handle it in an unusual and more Tantric manner in Elephant caste, which is--not exactly trumpeted majestically--but sort of hidden in the ruins, it is ready to roll as Ganapati or more specifically Ucchista Ganapati and Matangi.

    I cannot quite make a crisp dividing line where the original Sarasvati ends and Matangi begins, even if I claim to experience a little of them both. I can say they work differently.
    I don't know whether I have a relationship with Sarasvati. I have a relationship with her lute. As in, one of the "power poses" that I have been taught to go to is her lute, it's a pose I can only do when shaking, otherwise it is too strenuous, but during shaking it causes a huge influx of bliss/power.

    Quote Jewel Palace would usually be thought of as Deity Residence on Mt. Meru. With all of these components, it is more like we are trying to make a real operating environment, which Entering the Mandala means the deities are summoned to populate it. That is why the "symbols" are important. A mandala is like an expanded chakra. Therefor I would guess the palace you experienced is the collapsed or compressed version of the visualized thing that would be used in the rites, which are really on the Fixed Cross or so, i. e., your "personal palace" would be the central emanating point of the Celestial Palace.

    I cannot be sure if that is really what is happening, but, that is how the visual symbol is supposed to work.
    So if my personal palace would be the central emanating point, would that emanate from me? It happens when I am multiple "shaman" bodies at once, they "coincide" in the part where the palace is, is warm, and I wander through. The coinciding part feels very "yab-yum" but there's no visual of that, when I am seeing the palaces, I am wandering through them, not aimlessly, but I'm not sure what it is I am trying to find.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    My solar plexus is very complicated, it has been trained very hard by the Dakinis, it can start to vibrate or to pull hard in in an instant.
    It is. The Hindu Manipur--Solar plexus has sixty-four petals/yoginis, is a City with gardens and a palace with a Five Corpse Throne and so on. In Buddhism it also has a bunch of petals, but, things have Four Gatekeepers, so it does have a basic simple mode. That, of course, would probably be for those of us to whom it has the nature of a fuzzy ball, rather than knowing the intricacies of all the channels and so forth. If you go through the Exposition of the Book of the Dead, it really does have a name, deity, and specific function of all of those things. But for most of us, we need to start small and build up. And the Gatekeepers' rhythm goes on repetitively, since they are in any major mandala, and also part of the chakras. And usually the way it flows, is, navel emanation point for Tapas leads to Wrathful deities of the Head, and, it takes a certain amount of success here in order to begin relaxing and opening the petals of the Heart. That is, of course, the ultimate destiny, but, in terms of cultivation of Prana or Perfume, we are doing something extra besides just saying something like "Heart, be there for me" as a first and final practice. It is a total change in energetic viewpoint so that the thing really is not just the impeller of the whole body, but is linked in consciousness to non-body or something mental and permanent.



    Quote I'd be fine with the argument that sex with a corpse is not with a person, it's the sex with a corpse thing at which one might look askance ;-). In my shaking, if there is sex and a corpse, then I'm usually the corpse.
    Haha, well...perhaps you are a self-arisen Vetala?

    Manjushri may tell us or explain somewhere exactly how or why Sarasvati enters a corpse form, but, it is probably deep inside a Sanskrit Vajrabhairava Tantra or something like that.

    Now the point of Golden Zombie was that the disciple had to have Karmamudra, and that was the only way he could get it. But of course the same tantras are in Ngak pa and Vajracharya lineages, so there are plenty of non-monks doing the same thing without the need for Vetali per se. So Karmamudra is one side of it, and fearlessness of death is another, and the fade to emptiness of the corpse of mundane existence is well-known, so the symbolism is understandable, but I am not sure where anything really says exactly why a Bhairava, i. e. a form of Shiva, would use its form to make love to the form of something that was not alive. But she is still alive. After all, we can say Vajrabhairava appears by himself in Sarvadurgati Parishodana, and the un-coupled Vetali is like Aquarius in Dakini Jala, and these probably are among the older and more primeval versions before the Vajrabhairava Tantra...which was revealed by Vetali anyway.

    Quote This sounds very much like the teach, frustrate, test sequence that I am subject to. They show me I can do something, I spend a lot of effort making every possible mistake before learning it, I pass the test and they make it accessible with a tweak/switch (it feels like I'm tweaking a spot inside me, and the result is like flipping a switch). And they've usually moved on again.
    Yes, exactly. I usually call it Non-dualization, meaning, in this case, not so much the principle of unity, but the action of seeing pairs of opposite errors, shearing off the temptation, and gaining a bypass through their central point. In the abstract geometerical sense, this is exactly what I perceived in a tantric learning process even though it has nothing to do with manifest dakinis.

    There is something else that makes sense to me scientifically and metaphysically, which I have never seen written anywhere. So, what I did started as a fascination with death and I started doing Death Effigy meditations. And then, in terms of the aura--and this may even sound silly, but it is true--the most powerful tool is a mirror.

    There is a style where you use it in the dark until you see your aura.

    However, since I am used to the Stare of martial arts practice, I found it was easy to use some light and stare into one's pupils. You don't blink or move. It starts.

    And part of it, I wonder, if the eye interior is something like an ideal black body radiator, then for example, you get a stream of photons from the Moon and some of them bounce around in there forever, and some shoot back out through the pupils. Photons from Jupiter are doing it, from Arcturus, Regulus, Betelgeuse and so on--it makes a unique signature like a fingerprint made of starlight. No one else could have exactly the same combination and re-radiate them the way you do.

    So there probably is a twinkle of starlight in your eye which is occultly powerful.

    And for some reason, the aura works like photons, it will work in a mirror, or in a photograph. If a person has a powerful aura, it will radiate off a paperback fifty years after they are dead. You just can't see it with mundane sight.

    Quote I don't know whether I have a relationship with Sarasvati. I have a relationship with her lute.
    That is certainly her prominent mark, and the main segue' to tantra.

    When I was young I made two deity relationships. Well, you call Vajrasattva--Vajradhara "deities", but, to me it is just Guru and it is just one thing as we found in Vajra Rosary. Anyway, I did a little study and came across Green Tara in her normal mode of soothing mental and emotional problems and that became effectively my Yidam. And she took care of that. The Sarasvati which is beside me now was just an oddball thing, I was in an Indian grocery store that had a display of numerous icons which were mostly standard Shiva and Vishnu type things, but the Sarasvati really stood out as more colorful and unique. So I took her and went off and studied her and she was a Sherab, exactly how she is designated, she worked just like that too. Or, that is, she became useful as Sherab to me personally and it was not from doing sadhana but more like fusing her into the application of learning or playing music, she heightened the aptitude.

    That is a bit different than a "relationship" with the Dhyanis, which are either like getting smacked in the face with a frying pan, or a puff of cloud. The Dhyani Buddhas do not really do anything. Tara and Sarasvati do.


    Quote So if my personal palace would be the central emanating point, would that emanate from me?
    Yes, the Meru is the Sushumna, and so the mandala means a Magic Circle cast around the human body.

    The "origin" is really the floor or ground, Vajra Bhumi, but even this is usually the result of a Spawn Sequence, such as Emptiness, a Red Pam, a Red Lotus with an Om, and so on.

    I am pretty sure that if the palace you feel is part of the throat or head like that, then it would be the same Palace of the Mandala. I can not think of the right tantric source to describe it more precisely; the important part is that it is "where the deities go", i. e. over seven hundred in the case of Kalachakra.

    Since "you" are the central deity, then you are actually stuck there because it is the Fixed Cross. This may sound contradictory to "wandering within the palace", but it sounds like you are talking about a compressed area of the subtle body, versus a casting radius of a mandala retinue?

    Emanating things from oneself is pretty common in the tantras. Mostly it does come from the heart, for instance, the Ganapati basic mantras are to get his attention, and then the specific one for Red Ganapati says he is generated in your heart, and this energy is then beamed into the idol. I did this, and the idol radiated astral light. And so I did the Japa and that was it.

    I "learned" something, or, the mantra, Gah or Gam is very unusual because you will feel it make a "jet" from the roof of the palate downwards into the throat. That's how I knew I was doing it wrong, I was doing the G too soft and nasally, and it made me turn it crisp and into a thing that feels a bit like squirting a spray bottle.

    I believe it stands a chance to work as of a couple hours ago, something that presumably would have been a Dvesa or Rage or even the Mamos was nothing. That is something like a monumental change to a great historical trend. Like when politicians start a war, and nobody shows up.

    I mean it definitely works at least for me personally, but, my ability to saturate the environment with Vasikaran has never been such a thing. It is personal, but, it is not really personal since it is still for Bodhi and in the spirit of Four Brahma Vihara.

    It is hard to describe in English, it would come out as something like "I love myself", except it is not exactly a self that is being loved, because it means an aura or organism, not the psychological construct that may be attached to it.

    The Dragon's Head is coming and this time it is going to eat South America.

    Even if the display is somewhere else, the timing is the same, still a major event for those of us in the north.

    The Moon will be full tomorrow, that is, Monday or Moon Day, which is auspicious for something other than Ganapati, probably Usnisa or Sarasvati or Cunda. Perhaps Parasol. Swift Steed of Garuda says Extremely Wrathful Parasol is Pandara. However the Dharani states she emerges from Buddha's Usnisa and is Maha Pratyangira. In other places she also of course is Vajradakini.

    Like the Ucchistas, she is openly available and a bit forgiving if you can't do a picture perfect mantra. To me, she also feels fully primed and ready to roll like they are. Both of these work in a semi-formal meditation. Unlike the Ucchistas, she is a Yidam with a Cosmic Form related to the mandala skies or tantric sun.

    Anyone would be justified in using Ganapati prior to Parasol or other sadhana. He can be his own thing or help anyone. Because I understand a good deal about Ganapati, he was able to issue a distinguishable presence in just a couple of weeks. I think this helps, I think it works a lot better to look into it and see what the practice is about, and then go do it, with feeling.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    In Buddhism we do not seem to incorporate the common Klim syllable, and use other things for attractive and magnetic power.



    Krishna's Magnetic Klim syllable is derived from Akarsa.

    The name Krishna is a close variant of the root "krs" as is Karsa:

    1) Drawing, dragging, pulling; Y.2.217.

    2) Attracting.

    3) Ploughing

    4) A furrow, a trench.

    5) A scratch.

    I am not sure why Akasrsa sounds like it would mean the opposite of Karsa; either way, the meaning of "K" is based in this, but for some reason we have changed the seed syllable to "J" or Jah, which gives me a hard time figuring out why, other than it can be thee seed for Janguli or Janma. And this can perhaps be solved by looking at spelling confusions related to the Four Activities.

    And I am not sure yet about the technical fifferences in "attraction" and "magnetization", but, that may be why we have discarded Klim.

    Why would "Akarsaya Jah" or Hook be less "Magnetic" than Chain?



    The Wrathful Palace has Four Inner Gatekeepers who arise from Phat.

    It has a moat and outer wall, populated by the Four Activities in a different way, which should be evident from their name. They arise differently from a seed that is sometimes scribbled as "Jo" or something like that in Tibetan writings.


    Bhyoh in the format of twenty-eight identical stacked syllables is Outer Activity or Ishvaris or Wangchukma, being in four groups of six, each having a seventh as a Gatekeeper.

    Bhyoh Ishvari mantras

    Bhyoh as a seed for Palden Lhamo:









    Bhyah on the other hand is "to fear" as in the name Akshobhyah, which is really Vishnu. The Hindu claim is just that Vishnu--Akshobhyah incarnated as Buddha to present undefeatable arguments. "Kshob" means Sancalane, to disturb, be agitated, so Akshobhyah is the negation or absence of disturbance, agitation, and fear. Abhaya Mudra is similarly Fearless Mudra.

    Janguli is in Akshobya's Family.

    Jaha however has a sense of "abandonment" and so it may be saying "leave your current place and come here". Or, rather, Akarsaya Jah is a statement that says this backwards, come here, abandon your current dwelling. So Jah is not quite being used as a seed as in Janguli arises from Jah, it seems to be being used as a word with meaning.

    I do not think Jah gets confused for Bhyah. What happens is that the longer mantra becomes reduced to the seeds, just Jah Hum Vam Hoh. And so it seems like the first command is "stop it, quit what you are doing and get out". That may sound a little strange for the friendly atmosphere of a spiritual practice, but, it is not arrogant, rather, because the deities are reliable, it makes them move, like turning on the water faucet, like saying water, get in the kettle.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote That, of course, would probably be for those of us to whom it has the nature of a fuzzy ball, rather than knowing the intricacies of all the channels and so forth. If you go through the Exposition of the Book of the Dead, it really does have a name, deity, and specific function of all of those things. But for most of us, we need to start small and build up. And the Gatekeepers' rhythm goes on repetitively, since they are in any major mandala, and also part of the chakras. And usually the way it flows, is, navel emanation point for Tapas leads to Wrathful deities of the Head, and, it takes a certain amount of success here in order to begin relaxing and opening the petals of the Heart. That is, of course, the ultimate destiny, but, in terms of cultivation of Prana or Perfume, we are doing something extra besides just saying something like "Heart, be there for me" as a first and final practice. It is a total change in energetic viewpoint so that the thing really is not just the impeller of the whole body, but is linked in consciousness to non-body or something mental and permanent.
    Okay, once something is "developed" in my shaking, like my solar plexus, it is not fuzzy at all, it is very sharply delineated, but also quite physically strong, since they often work the muscles in some area for hours on end many nights in a row. My solar plexus I don't think quite has 64 different connections out of it, but it has a lot, to the surface of my abdomen, down deep in my abdomen, to the muscles along the edge of my ribcage, to muscles just under my ribcage, and so forth.

    My heart, on the other hand, has been a subject of visions, had been the "place of work" for a lot of shakings concerning my breathing problems and how to stop them, but not for anything else yet. There have been times when, after reading you say it is important and a center and should open, I have "tried" or "willed" to see at least something at my heart, but whatever is there either isn't ready yet, or something, it just feels like the centroid of my ribcage, stuff passes through there, even collects there, but only some visions have had it as any kind of center, not for the lack of trying.

    Quote Haha, well...perhaps you are a self-arisen Vetala?
    I don't identify as a corpse, there are these kriya or poses that are not Dakini identifications, that have been notated as "power poses" in my notes, and there are visions or embodiments that are similar to those but require a dissolve, that are either corpses, or rotting flesh. The power pose that I refer to as "charnel pose" is as a bug, I think I said cicada in my notes, carved out into an empty exoskeleton holding me as a corpse, flayed from neck to groin with one a kartika, the flayed part looking as much like a vulva as a flower in a Georgia O'Keefe painting. Recently (last night, e.g.) I have spent hours in that pose for various reasons.

    Quote Yes, the Meru is the Sushumna, and so the mandala means a Magic Circle cast around the human body.

    The "origin" is really the floor or ground, Vajra Bhumi, but even this is usually the result of a Spawn Sequence, such as Emptiness, a Red Pam, a Red Lotus with an Om, and so on.
    I will open up another reply to reply to this and the several paragraphs below it, something happened last night.

    Quote I mean it definitely works at least for me personally, but, my ability to saturate the environment with Vasikaran has never been such a thing. It is personal, but, it is not really personal since it is still for Bodhi and in the spirit of Four Brahma Vihara.

    It is hard to describe in English, it would come out as something like "I love myself", except it is not exactly a self that is being loved, because it means an aura or organism, not the psychological construct that may be attached to it.
    It actually makes perfect sense. But I'm not sure I'm a "usual" audience for it.

    Quote Anyone would be justified in using Ganapati prior to Parasol or other sadhana. He can be his own thing or help anyone. Because I understand a good deal about Ganapati, he was able to issue a distinguishable presence in just a couple of weeks. I think this helps, I think it works a lot better to look into it and see what the practice is about, and then go do it, with feeling
    .

    Good luck and happy hunting then.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Why would "Akarsaya Jah" or Hook be less "Magnetic" than Chain?
    I'm getting that Akarsayati means to draw near to oneself.

    Quote Jaha however has a sense of "abandonment" and so it may be saying "leave your current place and come here". Or, rather, Akarsaya Jah is a statement that says this backwards, come here, abandon your current dwelling. So Jah is not quite being used as a seed as in Janguli arises from Jah, it seems to be being used as a word with meaning.
    If you take what I got above for Akarsaya, then adding abandonment to it might end up with, "To draw close to oneself in abandonment." Which seems like something interesting.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote "So if my personal palace would be the central emanating point, would that emanate from me?
    Yes, the Meru is the Sushumna, and so the mandala means a Magic Circle cast around the human body."

    The "origin" is really the floor or ground, Vajra Bhumi, but even this is usually the result of a Spawn Sequence, such as Emptiness, a Red Pam, a Red Lotus with an Om, and so on.

    I am pretty sure that if the palace you feel is part of the throat or head like that, then it would be the same Palace of the Mandala. I can not think of the right tantric source to describe it more precisely; the important part is that it is "where the deities go", i. e. over seven hundred in the case of Kalachakra.

    Since "you" are the central deity, then you are actually stuck there because it is the Fixed Cross. This may sound contradictory to "wandering within the palace", but it sounds like you are talking about a compressed area of the subtle body, versus a casting radius of a mandala retinue?

    Emanating things from oneself is pretty common in the tantras. Mostly it does come from the heart, for instance, the Ganapati basic mantras are to get his attention, and then the specific one for Red Ganapati says he is generated in your heart, and this energy is then beamed into the idol. I did this, and the idol radiated astral light. And so I did the Japa and that was it.
    So it turns out this was leading up to something, and last night in one prep and three shakings, it was produced. The prep was a less than five minute shaking to basically let some things -- mostly muscle groups and blisses -- get ready, after which was several hours of sleep, and then on the first big shaking they rearranged my lower abdomen/pelvic area in layers -- there is a dynamic between my physical body (male) and clear body (female) that has played out in embodiments of "me" as shaman in which the physical body perceives as a male inside which the (female) clear body has expanded to just below the skin, and the clear body perceives it as the female clear body wearing a human skin (male). In this first shaking, they layered the male and female into three complete male-female laminations, and then put me to sleep (rather confused). Then they woke me up the second time, and expanded my perceptive body into an immense dark cavern (this is common, the body expands to seeming infinity and a whole world of vision goes on inside of it), and then "emanated" three complete worlds inside in each was a shaman, each shaman created as female clear inside male skin, each with a different familiar (animal), each in a different world or place, and all joined at the region between my root (perineum, muladhara) and my dantian. That place danced incessantly, and brought forth a great whorl that in one world was the White One (in this identified somehow as Yeshe Tsogyal), in one, Houracan the eye of heaven, and in one a sea of clouds descending directly to a waterfall (which I have seen before, it's at the top of the pillar, and where the reddish brown shaman "lives"). I was put to sleep a second time, and woken to emanate all of these while carrying on a quite normal set of thoughts and movements with the sole exception of the churning dance at my hips and waist (i.e. I did things like plan my day, etc.) with all seven bodies intact in the background while they created what will be the switches for this, and was then brought back to the usual workaday body and state by time in Sarasvati's lute and in the charnel pose.

    I tried looking up whether there were things about multiple-body and so forth, but didn't find anything yet. I don't think it's all that strange except maybe artists have a hard time with drawing it. I don't usually have multiple big shakings in one night, but seeing as how I was this time ordered to sleep each time, I think it must have been part of the process, in addition to multiple times when they put my legs in a stretching position and waited which I think was because I wasn't flexible enough off the bat to do what came next. As for what the purpose is for having three complete shaman emanations in three separate worlds, I don't know. I can identify the worlds, one is Tibet/Central Asia, one is Indonesia, and the other is Meso-America pre-Columbian.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Extraordinary, The triple shaman sounds like it is with Tri-shakti. It sounds like their natures are:

    White

    Eye

    Clouds/Water/Pillar


    What is unusual is not necessarily the "smaller" female, but that the clearish body I and most others experience is larger than the physical. And since here, the female is clear and she is "wearing" the skin, that is the opposite.

    In terms of seeing things that may trigger past life recollection, for some reason Indonesia seems more familiar to me than most other places. Burma or Pagan possibly, but Indonesia likely as Bali or Java feels kind of strong. I don't really delve into it, that is just how pictures impress me.


    This may be strange. I have a Manjushri Sword, not because it is a Manjushri Sword, but because it is a tri-metal item.

    When I first heard about him, I did not get much from the slogan of it Cutting Ignorance. It seemed like this was nothing new, we already have this idea, so why do we need him to do it?

    I have since then at least found out it also has something to do with use of the Voice in a Peacemaker role, which is great, but, the Sword itself to me is still something else.

    Sword Dakini is a dual track of the Fourth Vajrayogini of Nepal who is Guhyeshvari.

    In a more widely-known sense it is Red Guhyajnana Dakini, and, if you follow the symbol, to Red Ziro Bhusana. Although these seem to have Lotus Family constituency, their seed is Om, and they have no use of Hrih. Guhyajnana does replace "Svaha" with "Hriya", which sounds a bit more heart-oriented, probably because Jinasagara Avalokiteshvara is there.

    The Sword is more "secretly" or at least guardedly, Blue Mahacina Krama Tara, who does have something to do with Hrim syllable. That is Maya syllable generally, whereas Hrih is either a Buddhist variant or at least for some reason considered more important to Lotus Family.

    In Shakta philosophy, Sword means begins pointing from the periphery to the center of Sri Yantra, i. e. into Manipur Chakra, and it just doesn't stop through all the levels, keeps going, is like the compass of non-dualization.

    I would hold that for us, the Lion and Sword is similar, also represented by Manjushri, but also in this other way.

    The Nirmana Chakra Gatekeepers include a Little Red Lion Face with a Chain. There is no corresponding Red Simhamukha deity. The Hindu Pratyangira is Narasimhi Lion Face. Buddhist Red Lion Face is Ziro Bhusana. It is a bit strange that there is only this Form relationship to that Gatekeeper's face, and otherwise the Chain can hardly be found in Lotus Family at all.

    The Little Gatekeeper is rather powerful if you look at Lion's Roar Samadhi and Queen Srimala Devi. It has arguably no personal rite unless that of Ziro Bhusana.

    It is using the syllable Vam, which would become doubly important for Nirmana Chakra in the tantric sense.

    It is doing this specifically to accumulate and push purified prana upwards through the heart, which is for the overall purposes of Mantra and tantric throat energy of Lotus Family. So it is an easy beginning point that flows into the cycle of Pranayama which matches the Ziro Bhusana sadhana.

    It is never different from part of the Four Activities, which Guhyajnana puts "in order".

    It is the full Magnetization after the stable presence of something is achieved, this is like locking it in. The first or Akarsa may completely referring to "their place" and A-karsa or not attracted to it. Like switching polarity. This one is Bandhaya.

    The Chain itself is much more evident with Vajrashrinkala who is more related to Amoghasiddhi. The Tara consort of Amoghasiddhi is said to be different from similar Taras of the sadhanas, which, as far as I can tell, is because it means the Prajna on her own plane, whose Wrathful form is Candi or Candika and related to Smoky colors. Amoghasiddhi is usually Air deity, and both Air and Smoke take on a "new" symbolism as Prana. In the Guhyasamaja process, this appears to be the meaning of moving Air--Entire Surface--Touch to Touch--Central Space when Air is experienced as Energy Wind.

    Sadhana Tara arguably is a spiral. Nyan's Six Limb Tara means the Six Stages of Yoga, and then the Sixth stage of samadhi is the domain of Prajna Tara and Amoghasiddhi and Smoke.

    Her Wrathful aspect cannot be too far off of, and perhaps is more like a selective combing, of general Candi lore:

    The three principal forms of Durga worshipped are Mahagauri, Chandika and Aparajita. Of these, Chandika has two forms called Chandi and Chamunda who is created by the goddess Kaushiki for killing demons Chanda and Munda.

    She is known as the supreme goddess Mahishasuramardini or Durga who slayed the demon Mahishasura. She has been affiliated with and also considered as Katyayini, Kaushiki or Ambika who killed Shumbha, Nishumbha and their fellow demons. "The great Goddess was born from the energies of the male divinities when the devas became impotent in the long-drawn-out battle with the asuras. All the energies of the Gods became united and became supernova, throwing out flames in all directions. Then that unique light, pervading the Three Worlds with its lustre, combined into one, and became a female form."

    "Parvati projected an overwhelming omnipotence. The three-eyed goddess was adorned with the crescent moon. Her multiple arms held auspicious weapons and emblems, jewels and ornaments, garments and utensils, garlands and rosaries of beads, all offered by the gods. With her golden body blazing with the splendour of a thousand suns, seated on her lion vehicle."

    The combing is selective in that it retains Katyayani and Chamunda and adds Charchika. If one pursued every kind of Candi, it would probably be different in almost every single village.

    It appears to me that the chief Wrathful Tara is almost indistinguishable from Durga. Concurrently, we also have Peaceful Durga in Sarvadurgati Parishodana, as well as Durgottarini Tara.

    This involves most of the Green Taras which are Amoghasiddhi Taras, with certain exceptions of green ones in Lotus Family.

    In terms of the Four Seals, Amoghasiddhi is Mahamudra, and the critical analysis of Namasangiti suggested his Family became Mahamudra Wisdom as the result of the intensity of Bodhi Citta Vajra in Vajrasattva.

    The Family can only begin to be seen in Successful Accomplishment of Activity. The sin against it is more or less any difference of self and other, from which inequality arises, causing ignorance of power.

    The Sword is also interpreted as the Crossed Vajra of Amoghasiddhi Family and is used in symbol mandalas.

    Parasol is a Buddhist Pratyangira with a human face and yet she is also the elusive Vajradakini. This is a kind of tantric "stength" like Buddhadakini means a "power level" moreso than it does "dakini in Buddha Family".

    Vajradakini is part of Marici, Varahi, and Nairatma, is in the Vajraraudris, is Upeksa with Vajradaka, is the Fiery Crown Center of Jnanadakini, is a class that emanates from Pranava Vajradakini.

    If Ganapati and Matangi are Pranava or Primordial Om, this is like their Elephant Power cranked to Vajradakini strength.

    Perhaps it transcends the Maruts and Gandharvas and effectively tramples worldly Ganesh.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    I am trying to find the right breadcrumbs so that the rather complex pantheon reveals an underlying structure.

    A lot of this seems to be loaded in Parasol and Tara as being easily-obtainable outer deities who proceed through everything I can think of. Tara, in this sense, mainly means Amoghasiddhi Taras which we might call "of various ranks". Whether in Nyan's single sadhana, or the Mahattari-based version, either shows a developing outer Tara, which is used to attract "the real thing".

    Most of these forms and practices are very simple, and it is only a few such as Dhanada Tara that have much to say.

    Usually, anything related to Dhana is about Treasure, which would indicate Jewel Family, and/or represents Generosity with any form of wealth, and is already "covered" by Jambhala-type deities.

    Kubera is a northern or Amoghasiddhi deity.

    Dhanada Krama Tara is shown in prominent gatherings of Paramita-type deities assembled under tantric deities.

    And she, apparently, does mean a "gathering" in the sense of plural treasure(s). The reason for her placement shows a Buddhist definition which would mean six or seven Paramitas. Dhanada is:


    The seven qualities of conviction, virtue (see sila), conscience and concern, learning, generosity (see dana), and wisdom. Source: Pali Kanon: Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines.

    'treasures', a term for the following 7 qualities:

    faith,

    morality,

    moral shame,

    moral dread,

    learning,

    liberality and

    wisdom. Cf. A. VII, 5, 6.

    See 'Treasures of the Noble', by Soma Thera (BODHI LEAVES B. 27, BPS).

    Dhanada Krama already has built-in the same concept from Wisdom or Prajna Paramita being much like a circulation back through all the others. The first is similar to "launching" (i. e. Dhanu, a Bow), and the second of course is a transcendental state which by definition we do not hold at this moment, so they are like a "before and after" of the grouping or circle.

    Dhana is right at the start as the first Paramita, has a basic meaning as Generosity followed by the idea that Wealth is Hidden Treasure which is Nidhi which is Jewel Family, and then it is like cycling back and using this as the basis for the entire group, which makes it a method of Amoghasiddhi Family. Mahasri Tara is then like the culmination of this, since she is almost mantricly identical to Dhanada, except she is the Sambhogakaya or Akanistha Tara, a self-arisen one which we can only render ourselves capable of seeing. She has Marici, Ekajati, Janguli, and Mayuri.

    Mahasri is therefor suggesting one gets the "difficult" Dhanada, which appears to be an assemblage of Paramitas as well as a basic, full mandala.

    The same suggested grouping of basic or Arhat Paramitas is in Sarvadurgati Parishodana, and by inference should be strong with Durga or Durgottarini Tara. It is difficult not to see the latter as the "text goddess" of this tantra, although I do not think she is directly mentioned, it would probably be impossible to find any other Green Durga.

    Since the apex of a mandala is the esoteric Bhrum syllable, that is why Usnisa Vijaya is significant, and even if one overlooks her common practice in Long Life Trinity, she remains the major blessing dharani of the Sarvadurgati.

    It is a substantial compound whose ending comes from Hum.

    The beginning comes from Hrim and adds Bhrihaspati--Jupiter to make Bhrim, which is the syllable of Yellow Cintamani Tara Vasudhara and likely closer to Jewel Family. And so then if you make Bhrim x Hum it is like mixing Jewel and Vajra Families. In the Dharanis, Dhvajagrakeyura is occasionally Jupiter (more often Ketu, this pattern being similar to Ganapati). She is added to "seven weekly dharanis" by for instance Pandit Amritananda, Brian Hodgson's informer. It looks like you are going to get a slightly different set if you expand from seven planets to nine. It is intended to be planetary, but, you would sometimes have to use alternates since there are only seven days. This practice is a "household book" from around the 1600s, whereas the Namasangiti is an original Yoga source whose explanation or system is for instance forgotten in Forbidden City and lost from Ellora, but, is actually pretty obvious.

    Namasangiti and Seven Dharanis both start with Vasudhara (sun or Sunday). Namasangiti would then also suggest incorporating Dhvajagrakeyura (Ratanolka) early. This is good because she is Victory Banner, being a mandala summit item, which is opposite the Sun or covers Varnani or the Grasped or the lunar channel of the nerves.

    If you pass Hrim through Mahacina Krama Tara, it is going to enhance it with a little something other than its regular issuance related to the Mirror of Maya. She is a Sword deity, parallel to Guhyajnana Dakini, but different in a substantial way, also related to White and Blue Hum syllables and their development on "similar" figures such as Ekajati.

    In Sadhanamala, the more powerful goddesses all have an Oddiyana Krama, such as Marici, Kurukulla, and Varahi. And so I think it makes sense to take into consideration what else is an underlying "feeder" Krama, such as Mahacina and Dhanada, or the Mahabala Krama of the Pancha Raksha, which turns out to be shared with Ganapati.

    It all seems to gravitate towards having a full mandala or Dhanada crowned with Bhrum or Usnisa.

    The Usnisa has for its chief anyway, Sitatapatra Parasol.

    Now we have said Smoky Candika and Shrnkala are samadhi; I have from a note, Smoky Vajraraudri and her Activity Vajrashrnkala are samadhi.

    Vajraraudri in the Seven Syllable retinue is not exactly "the Vajraraudris", it is similar to them, minus Sound and Earth. In Seven Syllable or Saptaksara, she is Hrih, which may seem obscure, except that this mantra is not just its own sadhana, it is the mantra of the entire Chakrasamvara cycle. The group of Six with Vajraraudri is:

    Herukī, Vajravārāhī, Ghoracaṇḍī, Vajrabhāskarī, Vajraraudrī and Vajraḍākinī. They have respectively blue, yellow, red, green, smoky and white colour. All of them have dishevelled hair, fierce appearance, three eyes and the quarters as garments. They carry the resounding ḍamaru and the ghaṇṭā in the first pair of hands, and the human skin in the other pair.

    Instead of Vajra and Bell, they have the Damaru or Drum, which we have already described as a type of Dakini upgrade, which represents the Buddhadakini class or power level. Drum and Bell is perhaps noteworthy, there are no knives or blood or blood-drinking.

    Again, it is a bit weird since Vajravarahi is the consort/central deity and in the retinue, but, we have found such "doubling" in places where it seems to be an indicator like an astrological Exaltation. Since the double is Yellow, we would have to inquire whether the elusive Varahi of Ratna Family, or, is it Vairocani.

    These resemble Armor Deities, but, this has already been covered, and Vajradaka sadhana explains them as the Seven Jewels of Enlightenment, which is why Vajraraudri is Samadhi, Vajradakini is Upeksa, etc. According to Bhattacarya, Saptaksara is an Akshobya emanation, yet:

    Like Sambara this god also tramples upon Kalaratri and holds the Visvavajra on the crown. He has also the crescent on his head, is endowed with the six suspicious symbols, and stands in the Alidha attitude on the orb of the sun.

    So even if it "is" Vajra Family, it seems to be looking for something from Amoghasiddhi and Lotus in order to succeed.


    Samputa has "the Vajraraudris" which continue into Weapon or Shastradhara Hevajra Tantra:

    vajraraudrl (Rdorje drag polo), vajrabimba (Rdorje gzugs ma), Ragavajra (Hdod chags rdo rje ma) and
    Vajrasaumya (Rdorje zhi ba ma) in ihe directions; to the corners are Vajrayaksl (Rdorje gnod sbyin ma), Vajradakini (Rdorje mkhah hgro ma), and Sabdavajra (Sgra rdor je ma), and Prthvivajra (Sa rdo rje.ma).

    If we look at the inner ring, Raga is no surprise, neither would be Bimba if meaning Ekajati, we know she can scoot over there and do it. Raudri and Saumya look reversed. For example, with Vajramrita, Saumya is the first deity; and Raudri would normally have associations of "last" or Amoghasiddhi quadrant. That is why I think that makes this "the Vajraraudris", since she is in the lead. If that has anything to do with Raudra Krama, it means the Marut Gana and Ganapati.

    When we look at the similar deities with Vajradaka, they are defined as Seven Jewels of Enlightenment, which can only be found or done within a certain settled and ordered refinement of the Marutgana.

    Vajraraudri and Vajradakini are patently significant to both retinues.

    Vajraraudris are in Citta Hevajra 15 of Mitra Mandalas and in other Hevajras right before "Vajrasattva", which is really Samputa, which includes this ring and adds that the Dance Goddesses are from Paramadya Tantra. But there is still just the name with no form. They say the Hahn Foundation has the corresponding scroll. We may have this image somewhere but from what I recall it is probably not good enough to see them very well. It is worth digging through this or the Hevajras so we could record the forms. I know we have found them, but I am not sure the quality is there.

    Raudri is the Leopard Yogini of the solar plexus in the Pacifying group, or else, she is Maheshvari, which is Ghasmari. Although Raudri is also defined as Gauri, which sounds conflicting. Raudri and Ghasmari are distinct minor yoginis in Guhyagarbha Tantra. Otherwise Raudri does not seem to be a Buddhist deity. Closest is Pancha Raksha wherein Mahabala Krama is Raudravesa and also uses Raudratmako. Other Indian equivalents of Raudri are Camunda, Mahamaya, and Kalaratri.

    Well, there again, we have some kind of fusion, since the Buddhist sadhanas extract forms or equivalencies of these. For example, if we say Vajraraudri is Samadhi, and Candika is Samadhi, Camunda is Candika, and Camunda is Raudri, then you get a kind of round robin that is hard to do away with. Ghasmari is probably distinguishable, and Red Camunda or Charchika (possibly Ghoracandi) is perhaps a little different, but Vajraraudri seems inseparable from Smoky and Dark figures.

    Something that is a common, widespread name in Hinduism has been compressed into a kind of secret passage where she has no clear identity or association. About all we can say is that she can "begin" Samputa, and eventually perform as Samadhi at Bodhisattva strength, so to speak, with Vajradaka.

    Who would "begin" Samputa, as Vairocani "begins" tantra categorically?

    In this display, she/they are a special ring around the Dhyanis and Prajnas. So the Samputa practice, which is part of Agni Homa, incorporates something that is not even found with other Hevajra disseminations.

    One would tend to argue it is something close to Seven Syllable deity as well as Narrtesvara or Lord of the Dance and the Four Dakinis.

    It is not, exactly, the Gauris, or, the Tramen--Pisacis, but something that would be closely involved with them.

    All of the members of it are largely explainable, except Vajraraudri. Same in the Saptaksara retinue.

    This is symbolized in the Tandava Nritya of Shiva, the dance of Shiva, after which he has been named ‘Nataraja. For every reference of shiva, there is a corresponding reference of shakti. If shiva is Shambhu, then shakti is Shambhavi; if shiva is Maheshwara, shakti is Maheshwari; if shiva is Bhairava, shakti is Bhairavi; if shiva is Rudra, shakti is Raudri. Shiva and shakti are complementary at every level.

    Vama, Jyestha, and Raudri as the shaktis of the subtle triangle at the crown. Raudri is also part of the fourth Nitya. Or they may be in the muladhara, or related to the peturburance of the Shakti syllables. She is similar with the Vaisnavas. Raudri as Bindu. The same in Kubjika Tantra.

    Maharaudri Kalaratri related to Pretas, Vina, and Trailokya.

    I had forgotten there is a translated Samputa transmitted by Gayadhara and re-written by Bu-ston. Unfortunately the text is all in drop-down boxes. It begins by saluting Vajradaka.

    It seems to accept the Hindu Tri-murti without a second guess, and tells us things like:

    Since it is not possible to touch the deity-goddess (bhagavatī),
    An untouchable female musician takes on the same name, bhagavatī.

    It also gives us:

    bāhyapuṭe

    [pūrve] raudrī śuklavarṇā |
    dakṣiṇe vajrabimbā pītavarṇā |
    paścime rāgavajrā raktābhā |
    uttare vajrasaumyā haritābhā || 3.4.48 ||

    ap3.­152

    aiśānyāṃ vajrayakṣī ca sitapītābhā |
    āgneyyāṃ vajraḍākinī pītaraktābhā |
    nairṛtyāṃ śabdavajrā tu raktanīlābhā |
    vāyavyāṃ pṛthivīvajrā tu haritasitābhā || 3.4.49 ||

    So now we are confronted with Raudri in Sukla or Moonlight color, and we see the intermediates are dual-colored.

    This tantra specifically mixes Dakini Jala and Seven Syllable deity:

    oṁ śrī•he•he•ru•ru•ka•vajra ḍākinījālasaṃvara hūṁ hūṁ hūṁ phaṭ svāhā | śmaśānapriyadvibhujasya |
    oṁ śrīherukavajra sarvaduṣṭasamayamudrāprabhañjaka hūṁ phaṭ svāhā | raudrāsanadvibhujasya |
    oṁ hrīḥ ha ha hūṁ hūṁ phaṭ | vidyārājasya || 8.4.27 ||
    iti herukodayamantraḥ || 8.4.28 ||

    He loves the cemeteries like Kurukulla, and perhaps Raudri is significant to him being in a Raudra Asana.
    Last edited by shaberon; 2nd December 2020 at 01:32.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Extraordinary, The triple shaman sounds like it is with Tri-shakti. It sounds like their natures are:

    White

    Eye

    Clouds/Water/Pillar
    Is that because of the nature of the whorls? Is it associated with Tri-shakti? I don't know if it is associated with the number three anymore. I had a night's interlude during which there was a test, I sort of passed it but was not performing well on anything but the layering process that led to these three worlds. Then the night before last, I was laughed at for being worried about, or impressed by the emanation of three at once. I was then treated to an emanation of countless worlds with countless shamans. Not that I have been able to do anything more than the layering for that one at all.

    Quote What is unusual is not necessarily the "smaller" female, but that the clearish body I and most others experience is larger than the physical. And since here, the female is clear and she is "wearing" the skin, that is the opposite.
    I don't think I've ever known this before. My clear body has always been smaller, I don't think I ever wondered how they were for others, but that's strange that it is usually bigger, I'm trying to imagine what that would feel like.

    Quote Sadhana Tara arguably is a spiral. Nyan's Six Limb Tara means the Six Stages of Yoga, and then the Sixth stage of samadhi is the domain of Prajna Tara and Amoghasiddhi and Smoke.

    Her Wrathful aspect cannot be too far off of, and perhaps is more like a selective combing, of general Candi lore:

    The three principal forms of Durga worshipped are Mahagauri, Chandika and Aparajita. Of these, Chandika has two forms called Chandi and Chamunda who is created by the goddess Kaushiki for killing demons Chanda and Munda.

    She is known as the supreme goddess Mahishasuramardini or Durga who slayed the demon Mahishasura. She has been affiliated with and also considered as Katyayini, Kaushiki or Ambika who killed Shumbha, Nishumbha and their fellow demons. "The great Goddess was born from the energies of the male divinities when the devas became impotent in the long-drawn-out battle with the asuras. All the energies of the Gods became united and became supernova, throwing out flames in all directions. Then that unique light, pervading the Three Worlds with its lustre, combined into one, and became a female form."
    I was going to ask you about Tara, I recall you have a relationship with her. When they were laughing about me getting hung up on three shamans, they pushed the layering to a seemingly infinite level of laminations, and then emanated me as what felt like a many limbed one, green, as many limbs as seems like a wheel, and worlds radiating into the distance. The only female deity I can remember who has that many arms and is possibly green is Tara.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Most of these forms and practices are very simple, and it is only a few such as Dhanada Tara that have much to say.

    Usually, anything related to Dhana is about Treasure, which would indicate Jewel Family, and/or represents Generosity with any form of wealth, and is already "covered" by Jambhala-type deities.
    I happened on something a couple of days ago. In an article about Kundali -- The Wikipedia article actually, it describes him as one of the Wisdom kings -- full name Kundali Vidyaraja or Amrtakundalin -- and calls him the "bringer of nectar". In that incarnation, he is described as a manifestation of Ratnasambhava.
    Quote Now we have said Smoky Candika and Shrnkala are samadhi; I have from a note, Smoky Vajraraudri and her Activity Vajrashrnkala are samadhi.
    Is Candi/Candika the same one that is worshiped during Durgapuja with the Chandipath? It's read every year during that holiday. Supposed to be one of the most sophisticated mantra systems in Shakti Hinduism.


    Quote Raudri is the Leopard Yogini of the solar plexus in the Pacifying group, or else, she is Maheshvari, which is Ghasmari. Although Raudri is also defined as Gauri, which sounds conflicting. Raudri and Ghasmari are distinct minor yoginis in Guhyagarbha Tantra. Otherwise Raudri does not seem to be a Buddhist deity. Closest is Pancha Raksha wherein Mahabala Krama is Raudravesa and also uses Raudratmako. Other Indian equivalents of Raudri are Camunda, Mahamaya, and Kalaratri.
    Interesting. The three familiars, associated with the three shaman forms are eagle, snake, and panther. A leopard is a kind of panther, I suppose.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    Is that because of the nature of the whorls? Is it associated with Tri-shakti? I don't know if it is associated with the number three anymore.
    I am guessing.

    My sense is the subtle body is more like a geometric structure based on numbers, and that three or a trinity is a very fundamental aspect in any system.

    It is not necessarily a "thing", or form, since if I visualize it with Ah or E at the navel, I will get that, if I use Vam instead, it will be that. If I train that the yoginis are the sixty-four Shiva types, I will get that, if I train they are the twenty-eight Ishvaris, I will get that. The important thing is consistency. If I do a Nyasa or Armor, it is related to *that* deity, not necessarily the others. Because the visions you have are consistent, there is not really a way we can say they are "wrong" or incorrect, they just don't come out as a copy of any of the known systems. But you do not have these through the effort of a concentrated visualization, so, there would be no reason to assume they would appear in identical forms as in some lineage.

    That is why, in the root version, the Tri-Shakti are Icca, Jnana, and Kriya, because that refers to the characteristics of the underlying structure or circuit. If seen, the Icca shakti could, for example, take different appearances. That is why the feeling of "how she works" is more important than "what she looks like". When you follow a given practice, her form would hopefully resolve appropriately.

    Quote I don't think I've ever known this before. My clear body has always been smaller, I don't think I ever wondered how they were for others, but that's strange that it is usually bigger, I'm trying to imagine what that would feel like.
    That is unusual. Many of the basic books, eastern or western, will tell you to do something like look at your fingers. For most people, it only takes a short concentration to see either a clearish/aerial or yellowish-green double which is about a quarter inch to less than an inch bigger than the normal body.

    I have never not seen this. From the time I was able to talk, I have been trying to find ways to ask people about the double, or the saturation of atmospheric light by other light, or rays and auras, things which look completely physical, other than being "more ethereal".

    The "stranger" lights I have seen "open" out of this stuff.

    They have hardly ever allowed me to perceive any kind of "beings" except I think I have seen the Salamanders in a universal colony of Blue and Orange ones. Most people would probably call it Sky Full of Dragons.

    In original Theosophy, the double does not feel like anything, and it is recommended not to use it as a vehicle for projection. The three lower planes only consist of the physical body, the double which is its blueprint, and the prana or jiva which is the life force, channels and chakras. And this group is, in a sense, "the physical body", since it is produced for that purpose, and disrupted at death.

    The teaching of Kama Loka does not say it is a clear body. It is not a "body" unless being used. During ordinary life, one's Kama Rupa is just a glob of thoughtforms. When in use, such as a dream or projection, then it becomes a body which defaults to the owner's appearance, although you can change it.

    Therefor, any kind of visualized scene such as a desert or fountain, etc., cannot be in the plane inhabited by the double, since it is just a copy of earth and therefor related to it. The more versatile Kama Rupa, when projected as Mayavi Rupa, can, so to speak, "look down" and affect the material plane, but it can experience anything.

    The difference with pseudo-Theosophy is that it more or less squished the lower worlds all down into "the physical plane", and therefore made its own tinkering space to invent new higher "spiritual" planes. That is how we can see Ms. Besant in talking about Etheric Body or Etheric Plane is talking about something she made up. Then you have to take their word that there is such a thing as the Logoic Plane and that Atma is something like low-hanging fruit, only a step on the road to the former.

    Buddhist Yoga is not like that, it is closer to making Atma the highest plane without attaching words or concepts to it. HPB's description of Perpetual Motion remains about all that can be said. Almost all of the Buddhist teaching concerns something similar to the Theosophical "marriage of Manas to Buddhi". It is not saying that full Buddhi is an intuitive impulse we use all the time. It at the very least is a Prajna-alike state of mind which is challenging to all dedicated spiritual seekers.


    Quote I was going to ask you about Tara, I recall you have a relationship with her. When they were laughing about me getting hung up on three shamans, they pushed the layering to a seemingly infinite level of laminations, and then emanated me as what felt like a many limbed one, green, as many limbs as seems like a wheel, and worlds radiating into the distance. The only female deity I can remember who has that many arms and is possibly green is Tara.
    If an Eight Spoked Wheel, yes, this is what I call Samaya Tara, something like the root of Twenty-one Taras and the importance of Quintessence. That is her eight armed form, and I am not aware that Green ever has more. There are a very limited number of mega or universal 1,000 arm deities.

    That is why it is noteworthy that Guhyeshvari is among them, in which case she is supposed to be split, Blue and Green.

    The "worshippable" form of such mega deities is their Eighteen Arm form, such as Khaganana or Varuni, or Padmanarrtesvara, or limited others.

    I am thinking that is since they are based on the Tri-shakti moreso than on seven, nine, or other ways of classifying the worldly shaktis, there are only a few that may arise. The main concept of them is in their Red and White aspects, which adds to the strangeness of Guhyeshvari.

    I love her, but, I will never say she is not weird. Parasol is not weird. Guhyeshvari is almost incapable of normality.



    In Japan, particularly, yes, Jewel Family uses the Wrathful One Amritakundalin usually in the northern sector. This is just a short form of Ten Wrathful Ones. But then you see the confusion about the Families. In my view, it is a different practice, since it is talking about a mainly male-based version of taking the Five Families and attaching them to the System of Six with Vajrasattva. What we have, is more like starting with Six and the female aspect. In the common formula of Om Manipadme Hum, we already have a Devi or Six Syllable Sadaksari goddess whose Vidya consists of attaching everything about Six Families. Vajrasattva is unquestionable and we are using him differently, in what could be called Namasangiti fashion, by making him our beginning or first basis, rather than viewing him as the sixth crowning element to be achieved by that kind of five-to-six practice, which is heavily ritualized and impractical for anyone besides monks.



    The main difference between Buddhist Candi and Hindu Candi is that all the rites are in Chandipath.

    Siddha Kunjika Stotram is a "must" before reciting Durga Saptashati, also called Devi Mahatmya and Chandi Path. The song may be used on its own, but the text is considered less effective without the song. It is full of seed syllables and Chamunda mantra; Devi is also called Parvati and Khecari and it ends with something like Gauri Tantra. Lyrics are on screen or in full form from the source:





    It turns out that Kunjika is Gauri Tantra from Rudra Mala Tantra and is based on nine syllables for all nine Durgas.

    I would expect this is what Buddha calls "the first Gauri", and not to the Generation Stage goddess. Kunjika means key, this means that Kunjika Stotram is a key to unlock all locked powers (Locked by Shiva) of Durga Saptashati. The song unlocks the Durga and then locks it again after the text to close.

    So then if we say Candi is a Buddhist Prajna, she would not be expected to have many rites or practices, it means "her on her own plane", which is more of an "Is", since it is Bodhisattvas and Nirmanakayas who are the "does".

    All of the Chandipath and Amoghasiddhi Green Taras are "under this hood".

    We have Candi and Chamunda in retinues and so forth, but, I am not sure if there are many revised sadhanas for them. The only one is Carcika. Since she is singled out by name in Sadhanamala, the meaning of her name, or, Muttering, must be the intent. The next-closest thing is Dhumavati which we find attached to Palden Lhamo and the fierce Lakshmis. As to whether Dhumavati is just the Mahavidya version of Candi, possibly. It is very close to saying Mahalakshmi and Durga are the same, although it is plain that Lakshmi is the one who commands consorts to change, which means on her plane, deities may have different relationships than we are accustomed to.

    I think Durga and Tara are the same. If we rake through all Candis and Chamundas, we can find several kinds in Tibet, let alone India, so it is really hard to "systematize" her. Roughly, we could say that Red Chamunda is perhaps different, but it seems to me that Peaceful Amoghasiddhi Tara combines with any Durga, and Wrathful Amoghasiddhi Tara combines with Wrathful Durga--Candi. Those Hindu versions do not really have re-iterations, they are absorbed into a more powerful Samaya Tara.

    We have one Nepalese tantra which begins by using Durga--Vairocani, and then I would have to maintain a lot of Buddhism is Puranic and oriented to Durga like it is to Agni. The use of Agni is clearly stated by Abhayakaragupta and is "behind" the Vajravali method of Sadhanamala practices and also of Samputa Tantra.



    I try to internalize most of this stuff, which is only partially successful, since a few months ago I was excited that there was a Samputa available to us, and I already forgot and was grousing at the format of the page.

    That thing is historically pivotal, and I can't even remember it.

    If we are in a position to show that Dhanada Krama must have to do with a gathering of the basic Paramitas, we can find that by definition, these include Dhyana, which is not regarded as the same as Samadhi.

    Although the technical explanation of Dhyana includes everything we might call "subtle planes" and "Bodhisattva Grounds", Dhyana is only the second Yoga, whereas Samadhi is Sixth. So we are probably not going to do that great at the sixth, more tantric version, unless we are good at the second, more Sutra-based.

    Dhyana is the Fifth Paramita, and what is noteworthy here is that there is both Rddhi and Janguli. We saw that Rddhi is a close equivalent of Buddhi or Matangi which we say is absorbed into Janguli. This, itself, so to speak, must be Dhyana. It is the "breeding ground" of Samadhi because:

    samadhi is related to the paramita of meditative concentration (Skt. dhyānapāramitā)

    Dhyana Paramita is the domain of Vajra Family. Dhyana means:

    The mind that single-pointedly abides in immutable bliss is known as meditative stabilization.


    These Dhyana descriptions refer to Mahamudra and/or the type of Reversal that comes from the previous Paramita, or the first Yoga, Pratyahara or Withdrawal. The Bhumi Ground is Sudurjaya which is Difficult to Accomplish, and, its discipline is Rddhi, which is Magical Powers. That is also a name for Varuna's younger wife, who may even be invoked by:

    oṃ ṛddhyai namaḥ

    The full Dharani for this is that of Janguli.

    Dhyana we have variously translated as Dzyan, Chan, Zen, and so to us as practitioners it may seem very deep and intense and regarded as samadhi, which, provisionally it is, but eventually samadhi is determined to be a process between the ten winds and Clear Light or Prabhasvara.

    The Fifth Paramita Devi forms from Namasangiti are:

    Dhyana Paramita is of sky colour [gaganasyama, i. e. dark sky] and holds in her left hand the white lotus. Rddhi Vasita is green as the sky and holds in her left hand the discs of the sun and the moon on a lotus. Sudurjaya Bhumi is yellow in colour and carries an emerald on her open palm on the lap. Janguli is white in colour and holds in her left hand buds of poisonous flowers.

    Generally, it is the large Yellow Janguli that carries a blue poison flower, so her Namasangiti form highly corresponds to her Mahavidya form.

    After this is Prajna Paramita, which is like a revolving door with Ananta Mukhi Dharani. And so if we can see from the above that Dhyana is supposed to foster a Samadhi that overcomes all the Winds, then, if we remember Vajradhara from Vajra Rosary and the seventh principle generally which is quelled by the Abode of Vajrayogini, then, for Prajna Paramita, we see it tackles the sin of the seventh principle or skandha:

    view (drsti) is related to the paramita of wisdom (Skt. prajñāpāramitā)

    In the sense of a sin, it is Atta Dristi or any dualization of different selves or any view towards one's organism or apparatus as having self. It means it from the level of the merest subconscious flickering.

    Vajradhara refers to the singular Non-conceptual Wind, and, Prajna is:

    The wisdom that is not overcome by conceptualization and that bears the speech of the buddha, which is perfectly suitable for those to whom it is directed, is known as wisdom.

    This Paramita is governed by Amoghasiddhi Family, another thing making it a cumulative cycling of "all the above".

    Beyond this, Acala or Space is like a "divider" to the higher Paramitas which are the domain of the Four Dakinis.


    Because I do not have a mind that constantly abides in bliss, and I cannot always say things that are perfectly suitable, I am in no position to claim to have out-performed the "human level" basic Mahayana Paramitas. At best, I am simply trying to steer in that direction.

    The Namasangiti approach is unique, since there are other sources which say things like in Kalachakra, Marici "is" Sila Paramita. Here, Sila is just Sila, who is assisted by the use of a given Dharani. Prajna Paramita Dharani is not even linked to Prajna Paramita. Manjushri has, for whatever reason, said that Janguli Dharani helps increase the perfection of Dhyana Paramita, and in order to do it, you have to achieve Mastery of Rddhi, and this is Difficult, like Dhanada Krama is Difficult.


    A leopard is a panther, an Eagle or Aquila is Garuda, a snake is any Naga.

    In that one Naga, you should be able to expand all of the Cemetery realms, but here again it is possible to find oneself in their Peaceful equivalent. When the mental issues and karmic winds are depleted from a given aspect, you no longer have to be stuck at the level with blood and guts all over the place. The Naga cultivates the related Paramita, and causes beneficial rains to flow, presumably re-vitalizing the landscape, and then the Yaksha guardian allows one to "climb the tree" which is into the Avadhut.

    It is a plunge through the unknown and the outer fringes of Kama Loka.

    While this can be subdivided into a Hundred and logarithmically-increasing branches, it is not said that all of that is particularly useful. It is said that a basic grouping of six to eight can transmit what is needed for spiritual development into the Reality Realm. These are based in Vayu or Life Force having established seven planes, through which flows a seven tongued magnetic fire of consciousness. The material "creation" is something incidental.

    I was able to acquire some worldly knowledge which may help change a few things. I can't say exactly what it is, but, at least it is related to communication. Could lead to a noticeable improvement. It is usually a little risky for me to speak my mind and this will circumvent a lot of it.

    Because the Ganapati bombarded me in a strongly personal way, it is less fit for general purposes, which would be more like Vadiraj Manjushri. It is the rough intersection that several things I would probably say might be disturbing to others, versus the fact that as far as I can tell, they are kind of important to be done differently or done at all.

    I learned many things the hard way. So I inherently lack any kind of sugar coating to pass along with the basics of life.

    In other words, I know perfectly well how to make the Ganapati thing work if given a chance, whereas some of the other stuff is brand new to me since I have to deal with sensitive Sodashis. And it makes no sense to me to make these things this difficult to begin with.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote My sense is the subtle body is more like a geometric structure based on numbers, and that three or a trinity is a very fundamental aspect in any system.
    Three seems more natural to me, the night before last I was tested on putting together the complicated lamination that makes the other emanation, the infinite one, happen, but last night went back to nailing down the three worlds with the three shaman bodies.
    Quote That is unusual....
    [...]
    The teaching of Kama Loka does not say it is a clear body. It is not a "body" unless being used. During ordinary life, one's Kama Rupa is just a glob of thoughtforms. When in use, such as a dream or projection, then it becomes a body which defaults to the owner's appearance, although you can change it.

    Therefor, any kind of visualized scene such as a desert or fountain, etc., cannot be in the plane inhabited by the double, since it is just a copy of earth and therefor related to it. The more versatile Kama Rupa, when projected as Mayavi Rupa, can, so to speak, "look down" and affect the material plane, but it can experience anything.
    I feel like asking, "Well then how do they do all the blisses that require moving back and forth between the sexes, and how do they host and hear from the Dakinis?" But I guess the answer is, "They don't." or they don't do it that way. I have done some visualization so I do know what that looks like, but the time I tried astral projection, my astral body was so normal looking that I had to actually turn and face the bed and see myself there to sense that anything was different. My clear body has been extant and accessible for two years now, I guess I am very used to it.

    Quote That is why it is noteworthy that Guhyeshvari is among them, in which case she is supposed to be split, Blue and Green.

    The "worshippable" form of such mega deities is their Eighteen Arm form, such as Khaganana or Varuni, or Padmanarrtesvara, or limited others.
    Emanating wouldn't necessarily be "worshippable", there's very little one can do in the face of that kind of display than be awed and feel joy. Guhyeshvari means "secret queen", is she a Tara? The reason I thought of Tara is because of a feeling of peace and a smile that reminded me of her.

    Thanks for the Siddha Kunjika Stotram, it's very clearly enunciated.

    Quote I think Durga and Tara are the same. If we rake through all Candis and Chamundas, we can find several kinds in Tibet, let alone India, so it is really hard to "systematize" her. Roughly, we could say that Red Chamunda is perhaps different, but it seems to me that Peaceful Amoghasiddhi Tara combines with any Durga, and Wrathful Amoghasiddhi Tara combines with Wrathful Durga--Candi. Those Hindu versions do not really have re-iterations, they are absorbed into a more powerful Samaya Tara.
    This makes sense, they are both "Devi Maa", both Shakti.

    Quote Dhyana is the Fifth Paramita, and what is noteworthy here is that there is both Rddhi and Janguli. We saw that Rddhi is a close equivalent of Buddhi or Matangi which we say is absorbed into Janguli. This, itself, so to speak, must be Dhyana. It is the "breeding ground" of Samadhi because:

    samadhi is related to the paramita of meditative concentration (Skt. dhyānapāramitā)

    Dhyana Paramita is the domain of Vajra Family. Dhyana means:

    The mind that single-pointedly abides in immutable bliss is known as meditative stabilization.
    Increasingly, to carry out the things I'm expected to do when repeating what I have been shown, there is a prerequisite of intense concentration and quiet. Last night, for instance, was about the third shaman world (the one with the panther and the Houracan), and I had to maintain quiet order with only about a cubic centimeter of me in the bottom of my pelvis shaking for nearly an hour before proceeding.
    Quote After this is Prajna Paramita, which is like a revolving door with Ananta Mukhi Dharani. And so if we can see from the above that Dhyana is supposed to foster a Samadhi that overcomes all the Winds, then, if we remember Vajradhara from Vajra Rosary and the seventh principle generally which is quelled by the Abode of Vajrayogini, then, for Prajna Paramita, we see it tackles the sin of the seventh principle or skandha:

    view (drsti) is related to the paramita of wisdom (Skt. prajñāpāramitā)

    In the sense of a sin, it is Atta Dristi or any dualization of different selves or any view towards one's organism or apparatus as having self. It means it from the level of the merest subconscious flickering.

    Vajradhara refers to the singular Non-conceptual Wind, and, Prajna is:

    The wisdom that is not overcome by conceptualization and that bears the speech of the buddha, which is perfectly suitable for those to whom it is directed, is known as wisdom.

    This Paramita is governed by Amoghasiddhi Family, another thing making it a cumulative cycling of "all the above".
    It would seem that Dhyana is the concentration and Samadhi is the result. Which in my terms makes Samadhi more like the dissolve, when self dissolves.

    Quote A leopard is a panther, an Eagle or Aquila is Garuda, a snake is any Naga.

    In that one Naga, you should be able to expand all of the Cemetery realms, but here again it is possible to find oneself in their Peaceful equivalent. When the mental issues and karmic winds are depleted from a given aspect, you no longer have to be stuck at the level with blood and guts all over the place. The Naga cultivates the related Paramita, and causes beneficial rains to flow, presumably re-vitalizing the landscape, and then the Yaksha guardian allows one to "climb the tree" which is into the Avadhut.

    It is a plunge through the unknown and the outer fringes of Kama Loka.
    I was taught about the panther shaman body last night, so I can add some details.

    The snake, the Naga, is related to the shaman body that is "Indonesian", the one at the top of the waterfall directly from the clouds, that is also, in other shakings, at my crown since it is above the top of my pillar. The snake manifests from behind, like a hood over my head, with the bottom of me becoming snakelike but really sort of vortex-like as far as the eye can see.

    The panther shaman I was having trouble doing more than feeling very dark black and having a paw with claws on it. Last night I both spent hours with this clear body and with the paws, but the skin covered person shaman is tan and dressed in a turquoise with gold coins headdress, and stands at a cenote with Houracan above in the sky and arches backwards and shouts at the sky, face wet with very warm rain. I'm describing third person but it is first person, and is at the same time so dark black that I can't see my limbs. She gestures in exact coordination with the other shaman bodies, but "on the way in", I do a abhaya mudra in the left hand, and a karana mudra in the right, pointing down.

    Quote In other words, I know perfectly well how to make the Ganapati thing work if given a chance, whereas some of the other stuff is brand new to me since I have to deal with sensitive Sodashis. And it makes no sense to me to make these things this difficult to begin with.
    I know about difficult things, but I also sometimes find out that what was supposed to be difficult was badly described in the texts, and wasn't supposed to be. I have a theory that as writing got easier (all the way to the present) things got easier to write, and very old texts are not brief always out of a desire for brevity, but a habit of being concise because of expensive writing materials.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Here is the explanation of Vajraraudris in Samputa.

    In this tantra, the principal is Wrathful vajrasattva--Heruka--Mahasukha--of Vajra--Hatred Family, and the Prajna--consort is Vajravarahi.

    And the class of Vajraraudris continues in Weapon Hevajra tantra, which we have figured out is supposed to re-cast Hevajra in two, four, and six arm forms, ascending in the Tri-kaya so to speak. Samputa is the same.

    The Gauris are Offering Goddesses. According to the text, it is a solo Heruka which is first generated, and the Gauris do a round of praises. It does not mention Dhupa and Dipa and the other Taras with incense and perfume and so on, this is a wrathful rite and they appear to be replaced. Heruka stands on a corpse. The moon and sun then emit the vowels and consonants.

    Then, Heruka is re-generated in tantric regalia with a staff and flame-swept hair astride Bhairava in a charnel ground surrounded by eight goddesses, i. e., Vajraraudris.

    Then, Heruka is re-generated in a four arm form and, the text has the term Embrace, with Vajravarahi. This seems to be a quick transform-via-syllable.

    Then, the couple are re-generated in a six arm form. This is in a Moon Disk environment. First meditate on emptiness, then there is a lotus with a moon, and so on. Only after this is fully manifested does it say, then, they are in union. It is a mandala with lotus petals, and, the Vajraraudris as a class are Hrih-arisen goddesses who stand on skull cups, who are "just there" with no special casting of their own. This is a wrathful rite, but, we would have to contend it is in more of a moon-like peaceful cemetery since, no matter how wrathful their image may be, it turns out that they are *all* pleasing:

    “Their forms, of different colors, are pleasing to the mind
    And they each have one face and four arms.
    First, he should draw the beautiful consort (vidyā)
    Who holds an arrow and bow, {2.3.40}

    2.­143
    “A skull cup filled with semen,
    And a goad.
    Second, he should draw the goddess who has in her hands a spear,
    A skull cup filled with blood, {2.3.41}

    2.­144
    “A vajra scepter, and a noose.
    He should draw her on the southern petal.
    Third, on the northern petal, he should draw
    The goddess who has in her hands a sword, {2.3.42}

    2.­145
    “A skull cup filled with water,
    A vajra scepter, and a bell.
    He should draw the fourth goddess
    On the western petal. {2.3.43}

    2.­146
    “In her left hands she is holding
    A khaṭvāṅga and a skull cup,
    And in her right hands
    A ‘flame thrower’ and a triple banner. {2.3.44}

    2.­147
    “The fifth goddess has a staff in her hand
    And holds a skull cup with another.
    She also holds a lotus and a ḍamaru.
    He should draw her in the northeastern quarter. {2.3.45}

    2.­148
    “In the northwestern corner he should draw
    The sixth goddess with a lotus in her hand.
    She also holds a skull cup filled with fat,
    A mirror, and an axe. {2.3.46}

    2.­149
    “The seventh goddess has a lance in her hand.
    She also holds a conch shell, a discus weapon,
    And a skull cup filled with blood.
    He should draw her in the southwestern quarter. {2.3.47}

    2.­150
    “The eighth goddess he should draw
    In the southeastern quarter.
    She is holding in her hands
    A pitcher, a vajra scepter, a bell, {2.3.48}

    2.­151
    “And a skull cup filled with substances,
    Covered with human skin. [F.89.b]
    He should draw these goddesses on the petals
    And the lord Mahāsukha on the pericarp. {2.3.49}

    2.­152
    “He should draw, in the secret maṇḍala,
    Various musical instruments.
    He should draw the gate keepers—
    A goddess holding a goad, {2.3.50}

    2.­153
    “And likewise, one with a vajra noose, a chain,
    And a vajra bell.
    He should visualize himself in the center of a vulva,
    And later begin mantra recitation.

    On their petals, the goddesses mix Hrih with other syllables in a process of the Four Seals, and it is after this that you are supposed to enter union with a consort. It is a bit hard to read because they are not introduced until the end of the section:

    “There is Vajraraudrī
    And also Vajrabimbā.
    Vajrarāgī is the third
    And Vajrasaumyā the fourth. {2.3.58}
    2.­161
    “The fifth is Vajrayakṣī
    And the sixth Vajraḍākinī.
    The seventh is Śabdavajrā
    And Pṛthvīvajrā is the eighth.”

    There we can see the casting order is unusual, so I was wrong, and here Vajradakini is sixth which is placed in the Northwest. Although the text does not reveal this, we have just passed a section of it explaining Upeksa and Samsara as the prime operating environment--which have already been defined as Vajradakini's nature with respect to the Seven Jewels of Enlightenment and to the Skandhas (Samsara skandha, i. e. cetana or volition, will, iccha).

    It is calling Vajraraudri "the consort" and she must be in the East.

    The inner ring, for some reason, ends in the West, and the intermediate ring is just backwards. It ends with a Pitcher goddess which re-inforces the idea of "end" because that would be Initiation compared to the others with skullcups. So it ends in Agni corner which is paradoxically occupied by Prithvi or Earth Element, which almost implies Agni possession of the physical body.

    One remains in union making offerings and muttering, and that is all, the section abruptly ends and the next part is a Tara sadhana.

    The tantra at least in this part does not seem to be dead set on self-generation or taking the deity form on oneself. It sounds like it either accepts or is even intended to use a Yoga view or i. e., an external scene that more resembles a conversation.

    The Heruka specifically allows a front-facing in-the-sky view, and, nothing about the major six arm form suggests anything other than such a mandala is seen.

    Samputa also says that Vajradhara is One and the Tathagatas are Five Families, whereas Vajrasattva more or less "is" the practitioner or is one's principle of Gnosis. It must be a hypostasis, since the main, operative Vajrasattva is emanated in Vajra Family. This again sounds to me like the best kind of description of "Seven Families", since the additional two are not exactly primordial or are not within the bundle of senses, etc. It is more like Vajradhara is a state that Vajrasattva is the practice of.

    There apparently is a beautiful white Vajraraudri Archer who has a skull of semen and a Hook. Somehow she seems to work as a "double" Vajravarahi since she is called "the consort". Of course, the original term is "Vidya", and so one could perhaps argue she is the intent or knowledge to be sought in this rite, rather than "vidya = consort" as per translation.

    It has seemed to me these Vajraraudris as a "bandwidth" or "channel" are like Marutgana--Shaktis, and, here, they are an alchemy of Sound, Seals, and Sex. Elsewhere, the text says if you cannot have union that you should visualize it, almost as if the "self-generation" recommended is not really a deity form but is sex.

    This is about as wrathful as it can be, the Family keeps calling itself Hatred and yet it goes to this very pleasant environment which becomes the root of the real meditation and is most closely related to Hrih. This again is a lot like the vicious Maruts or Servants of Indra being "banded" by some more powerful influence such as Ganapati, especially when thought of as the Energy Winds or Prana. It is like the Prana Shakti of:

    Om Sri Maha Ganapatiye Pranashaktyai Namah

    The Samputa is a bit like a tour guide, it is about Dakini Jala Samvara, and so I am going to try to re-work the circle of Vajraraudris with the Dakini Jala Gauris. What that will do is place "the original Chakrasamvara" with "a late cumulative synthesis".

    It would make the layers of these wrathful deities into:

    Tramen--Pisaci--Objects of Mundane Consciousness, such as Rupa Vajra up to Dharmadhatu Vajra

    Gauris: Ayatanas or Indriyas or sense-faculties of consciousness, used to make Offerings

    Vajraraudris: Marut Gana or Prana Shakti or the Energy-Winds as related to Agni and the Families as used with the above, which are a parallel to Vajraraudris--Seven Jewels of Enlightenment as done in Vajradaka Tantra, which itself is the main backbone of Samputa along with Dakini Jala and Vajramrita Tantra and Vasantatilaka.


    So far, I see nothing that actually describes the Vajraraudris' nature that could contradict this. But as we can see, they have a really specific role in a key location.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Posted by Old Student (here)
    Three seems more natural to me, the night before last I was tested on putting together the complicated lamination that makes the other emanation, the infinite one, happen, but last night went back to nailing down the three worlds with the three shaman bodies.
    Samputa says:

    “When, in his pursuit of the path of mantra,
    An able disciple is initiated
    In the presence of all the buddhas,
    In a maṇḍala, which is the abode of the bliss-gone ones, {2.1.6}
    2.­7
    “He should be able, in addition,
    To behold the goddess of infinite world spheres
    If this wise disciple has reached the state of self-consecration
    And is anxious not to violate his samaya. {2.1.7}


    So, if I say it sounds like you are at an energetic parallel of what we call Entering the Mandala, according to Samputa, you have this ability, since you are able to perceive such a goddess. Also, when it says "self-concentration", that is Svadisthana, which has a few synonyms, I personally like Water Moon.


    Quote I feel like asking, "Well then how do they do all the blisses that require moving back and forth between the sexes, and how do they host and hear from the Dakinis?" But I guess the answer is, "They don't." or they don't do it that way. I have done some visualization so I do know what that looks like, but the time I tried astral projection, my astral body was so normal looking that I had to actually turn and face the bed and see myself there to sense that anything was different. My clear body has been extant and accessible for two years now, I guess I am very used to it.
    I think it is all in the plane of Prana, i. e. the third world or Svar Loka, equivalent to Manipura Chakra in the Sri Yantra system.

    Dakinis in the plainest sense are called the flows of energy in the channels.

    As for some of the other points, I am not sure. In Buddhist tantra, visualizing oneself as the opposite sex is certainly described as an exercise in the release of identity, but I am not sure that it is said that you actually have to do this to pursue Suksma Yoga.

    In the western sense when we say "astral" we may get confused. In original Theosophy, the astral plane is second plane of the Linga Sharira which is *limited* to a copy of the earth world, and, this particular body cannot do very much.

    In general use, "astral" as in projection often would mean the Kama Loka or Kama Rupa, which is *able* to copy and affect the earth, but, it can do a gazillion other stuffs.

    HPB said her seven planes system was superior to the Fourfold Advaita Taraka Raja Yoga classification of Subba Row, because it explained more things then "only" meditation. Especially with ghosts, which are of different kinds, depending on whether or not they have a Linga Sharira.

    You should not normally retain it after the expiration of a physical body. However it "sticks" in the case of premature deaths such as accidents and suicides, and is bound to haunt the terrestrial plane for the remainder of what would normally have been possible for the Jiva or life force energy. These are of course very terrible since they are insatiable and unable to satisfy anything unless via a parasitical relationship. This class is called Earthwalker and it is one of these that I believe I have helped.

    Death at a later age generally means the double will slip off and just hover around the gravesite, with no owner.

    Most ghosts are the shells or kliffoth, meaning, the discarded remains of a Kama Rupa.

    HPB said most untrained psychics would have a hard time telling the difference between a ghost and an astrally-projected adept.

    A lot of necromancy was being done those days particularly in the U. S. and Theosophy sought to make the point that the spiritual soul was something else entirely which had gone away from the terrestrial plane whatsoever, and that ghosts were just the "remains of memory and personality" in the same way that corpses, pieces, and parts in the charnel grounds are no longer considered in use by their former owner.


    Quote Guhyeshvari means "secret queen", is she a Tara? The reason I thought of Tara is because of a feeling of peace and a smile that reminded me of her.
    Manjushri is remembered as the one who set up the town, Pattan, now called Lalitpur. If we know him as the Virgil of Avatamsaka Sutra and a whole bunch of other things, his initiator was Guhyeshvari. By name, she is an extension of Khaganana, Vajravarahi and Nairatma. She is Mamaki, who is a Prajna. So she is a female correspondence to Vajra Family being a hypostasis of Vajrasattva and Vajradhara.

    I am not sure Guhyeshvari "comes quickly" and I am not sure if she is "taking us across" since her nature is more of the Prajna, who is the "across".

    It is almost more accurate to call her "a Varuni". Varuni is Vairocani, Varnani, Vajravarahi, Nairatma, Khandaroha, and Mamaki.

    And so when you crunch that in the Nepalese sense in which it originated, firstly, you have the full explanation of Khandaroha, who is used as an All-Purpose Banisher in many of the Tibetan practices without mentioning this. Then, you find Guhyeshvari has her personal thing which is also not expounded in the Tibetan tantras, Khaganana.

    It is so self-secret, I am not sure exactly what to say about her.

    Her Thousand Arm form holds Males and Females.

    She is Adi Prajna, assisted by Vasudhara and Parasol.

    She is Sati's vagina and cervix Pitha.

    Mamaki is a slippery rascal who is also like a grace of her stepping down in that she may be known through Bodhisattva Vajrapani.

    And at a certain point I have to concede there is something in the tantras which surpasses my knowledge of the physiological aspect of part of Suksma Yoga. It seems, strongly, to me, there is a significant meaning in the "variable" Family of Vajradhatvishvari, along with the fact that Mamaki can be found in Jewel and Vajra Families, and this probably has a lot to do with Vajramrita Tantra, which was requested by Mamaki.




    Quote It would seem that Dhyana is the concentration and Samadhi is the result. Which in my terms makes Samadhi more like the dissolve, when self dissolves.
    Something like that, yes. Dhyanas can be done on any subjects such as a Kasina Disk or Yantra. Samadhis, in the Buddhist sense, are specific visualizations. Samadhi, as a category or possible event, was something practiced long before. So we are doing something like an evolution of the experience of Samadhi.


    Quote I know about difficult things, but I also sometimes find out that what was supposed to be difficult was badly described in the texts, and wasn't supposed to be. I have a theory that as writing got easier (all the way to the present) things got easier to write, and very old texts are not brief always out of a desire for brevity, but a habit of being concise because of expensive writing materials.
    On that one I was not being esoteric but actual, i. e. Sodashi = sixteen year old, and so forth. It is a domestic situation which is fraught with its own perils. Because Ucchista Ganapati recycles messes, that is why it is so timely.

    It should go on into the next phase next week. In other words, I have to employ its operative powers and get them to work, with, or without, any explanation about what I am doing.

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    Default Re: Does Anybody Else Have Clear Body Experiences?

    Quote Then, Heruka is re-generated in tantric regalia with a staff and flame-swept hair astride Bhairava in a charnel ground surrounded by eight goddesses, i. e., Vajraraudris.

    Then, Heruka is re-generated in a four arm form and, the text has the term Embrace, with Vajravarahi. This seems to be a quick transform-via-syllable.
    I believe I have read that there are many Herukas? The only one I'm all that familiar with is Chakrasamvara, and only in a 12 armed version, in which he embraces Vajrayogini.


    Quote Then, the couple are re-generated in a six arm form. This is in a Moon Disk environment. First meditate on emptiness, then there is a lotus with a moon, and so on. Only after this is fully manifested does it say, then, they are in union. It is a mandala with lotus petals, and, the Vajraraudris as a class are Hrih-arisen goddesses who stand on skull cups, who are "just there" with no special casting of their own. This is a wrathful rite, but, we would have to contend it is in more of a moon-like peaceful cemetery since, no matter how wrathful their image may be, it turns out that they are *all* pleasing:
    [...]
    On their petals, the goddesses mix Hrih with other syllables in a process of the Four Seals, and it is after this that you are supposed to enter union with a consort.
    So this would be a Mahamudra method? There is a lot of mixing of cemetery and charnel grounds themes with themes of bliss and conjoining in my shaking at times, but decay there is almost always not an endpoint but a proto-beginning.

    Quote It has seemed to me these Vajraraudris as a "bandwidth" or "channel" are like Marutgana--Shaktis, and, here, they are an alchemy of Sound, Seals, and Sex. Elsewhere, the text says if you cannot have union that you should visualize it, almost as if the "self-generation" recommended is not really a deity form but is sex.
    It wouldn't seem like differentiating between deity and sex was "necessary" if the deity was Shakti.

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