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Thread: Do we have a Spirit? Do we have a Soul? And where's the proof?

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    Avalon Member East Sun's Avatar
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    Default Do we have a Spirit? Do we have a Soul? And where's the proof?

    We believe because we were told by religion that this is so.

    I have been pondering these questions for ever.

    There is no way for anyone to prove that we have a soul or spirit.

    We may be believers in God or whatever or be Atheists but we
    just do not know for definite.

    We hear or have been told of OBE's and they seem to be very real
    and may very well be real even though not explainable.

    That does not tell us if we have a Spirit or a Soul?

    I personally do not think we can ever know if we have a Soul or Spirit.

    That does not make us any less human.

    I hope some Spiritually advanced person can throw some light
    on my questions, without going into long rehashed dogma.

    Spare me the religion approach.

    Is there a definite proof or not.
    Question Everything, always speak truth...

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    Avalon Member meeradas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do we have a Spirit? Do we have a Soul? And where's the proof?

    We'll find out in due time. Guaranteed.
    Last edited by meeradas; 7th July 2020 at 00:11. Reason: de-personalization

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    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do we have a Spirit? Do we have a Soul? And where's the proof?

    Well, once one's been regressed a few times to re-experience some of one's past lives, there's absolutely no doubt (for oneself) that these are real.

    But because the experience is subjective, it's unprovable. I had eggs for breakfast this morning. I know because I remember it clearly. There's no doubt. But I can't prove it.... no-one else was around, and I didn't record it on video.

    So if past lives are real, then of course that's not my own current body. What it has to be is that part of us that also remembers things, but which is non-physical.

    QED ó for me, personally. I have absolutely not a molecule of doubt. But everyone has to discover this for themselves, if they can or want to. And in the end, as meeradas says, it'll be self-evident.

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    Default Re: Do we have a Spirit? Do we have a Soul? And where's the proof?

    There's only plenty of anecdotal evidence, but that of course wouldn't do well under scientific scrutiny.

    There's not only beliefs, but inner knowledge and experiences which people have. It's safe to say that we don't have a soul, because we indeed are souls or spirits having these earthly experiences in this dimension, in these bodies made of flesh and matter. What is matter anyways? It's energy merely condensed to a slow vibration and the first law of thermodynamics states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. It can only change forms. In any process, the total energy of the universe remains the same and the world of form, or maya (illusion) is always subject to decay and entropy.

    Until the apertures of modern science advance far enough, we can't really "prove" or disprove the existence of God and soul with human-made machinery. What would be the benefit of faith then?

    I used to be a believer, but once you attain some kind of direct contact with the truth you just know what's true and what's not. I think that's up to each invidual to experience it themselves and everyone is exactly where they are meant to be in terms of their development, everyone is on their own level of consciousness.

    Everything is consciousness and if it wasn't then we wouldn't be here to discuss it. The proof is in the pudding.
    "When you've seen beyond yourself, then you may find, peace of mind is waiting there." ~ George Harrison

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    Default Re: Do we have a Spirit? Do we have a Soul? And where's the proof?

    Memories... they shouldn't be "there" any longer... yet about anyone can recall them, whether this morning's breakfast or some ancient past life... as recorded by "something."

    Then there is that conundrum: who/what is looking at these recordings?

    Personally, I have a lot of troubles imagining a brain looking at itself... and in the case of past lives, that brain is long dead and decomposed which brings us to that other conundrum of NDEs experienced by brain-dead "people": their body just quit recording and functioning at any level, yet, there is "something" recording a perception of their dead body as seen from some corner of the ceiling before venturing towards some light and being told to "Go back!"... so, "what" is being told to go back?... when their body lies lifeless on some operating table. Then, "what" brings that body back to life when they return to "it?"

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    Canada Avalon Member TomKat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do we have a Spirit? Do we have a Soul? And where's the proof?

    Quote Posted by East Sun (here)
    We believe because we were told by religion that this is so.

    I have been pondering these questions for ever.

    There is no way for anyone to prove that we have a soul or spirit.

    We may be believers in God or whatever or be Atheists but we
    just do not know for definite.

    We hear or have been told of OBE's and they seem to be very real
    and may very well be real even though not explainable.

    That does not tell us if we have a Spirit or a Soul?

    I personally do not think we can ever know if we have a Soul or Spirit.

    That does not make us any less human.

    I hope some Spiritually advanced person can throw some light
    on my questions, without going into long rehashed dogma.

    Spare me the religion approach.

    Is there a definite proof or not.
    I'm not so sure everyone has an immortal spirit. Those who do, know it. Those who don't, don't believe in such a thing.

    I think the human body can assemble a kind of corporate consciousness out of miscellaneous astral patterns and thoughtforms. The corporate consciousness that made up the "individual" dissolves after death, unless a God spark "catches fire" during the lifetime to give permanence to the personality.

    I'm not sure I believe in a "higher self," though. I like what Brad Steiger said, something like: 'Joe will continue to be Joe forever, unless he reincarnates. Then he will continue to be that other person forever, unless he reincarnates.' That jibes with what I've deduced from reincarnating pets.

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    Default Re: Do we have a Spirit? Do we have a Soul? And where's the proof?

    Once I was doing a single Tai Chi movement with a group. It was a form of meditation. The front wall had a mirror from ceiling to floor. I saw myself in the mirror with my eyes closed and then I watched them slowly open all while my eyes were still closed. And thatís when I saw blue light that surrounded my body.


    When I do Tai Chi and at other times as well, I feel and see what I call the spirit body. Sometimes it extents far, other times itís only 4-5 inches away. When Iím on my walks I intentionally extent outward to exchange energies and talks with the flora and fauna.


    Years ago, I ran into an old coffee buddy that I had lost touch with. He pulled the door open the same time I went to push on it. He was never at a loss for words but this time he was startled and looked above me. He explained that he saw light around me. It wasnít typical for him to speak of such things. He was a brilliant thinker. All intellect.

    Shortly after our encounter I learned of his death. He went quick. I surmised that he got a chance to use inner vision before his passing. And for me? That encounter was one more confirmation of how we are more.

    PS I don't spend a lot of time delineating between soul vs spirit. The experiences are plenty enough for me. [most days]

    Last edited by RunningDeer; 7th July 2020 at 02:15.

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    Default Re: Do we have a Spirit? Do we have a Soul? And where's the proof?

    I have discovered/ observed that concepts/ ideas of spirit, soul, psyche, self etc. can be tripping points in their own right.

    Without absolute proof of this it is thus an opinion/ sense and seems to operate this way in varying degrees by design.


    .

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    Default Re: Do we have a Spirit? Do we have a Soul? And where's the proof?

    Child prodigies.

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    Default Re: Do we have a Spirit? Do we have a Soul? And where's the proof?

    I had a friend coming over for dinner yesterday at 4.30pm. At 4pm whilst we were reading a story together, my 2 year old turned to me and said ĎBrettís just having a shower and then heís coming overí. Turns out that was exactly what Brett was doing. I donít think my kid could have told me that unless he was connected to something. As Bill said, until weíve had those experiences for ourselves it is impossible to know, and give their subjective nature we might never know what itís like for anyone else, but moments present themselves to us all.

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    Default Re: Do we have a Spirit? Do we have a Soul? And where's the proof?

    I believe there is soul. I just don't think it has anything to do with me or you.
    That said I believe all stories/lives are known with all it's intricasies/ It is possible to tap into those stories on an experiental level, which would make them indistinqueshable from your experience hence the feeling it happened to you.

    Other than that I am quite happy to let the mystery stay mysterious.

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    Default Re: Do we have a Spirit? Do we have a Soul? And where's the proof?

    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)

    I'm not so sure everyone has an immortal spirit. Those who do, know it. Those who don't, don't believe in such a thing.

    I think the human body can assemble a kind of corporate consciousness out of miscellaneous astral patterns and thoughtforms. The corporate consciousness that made up the "individual" dissolves after death, unless a God spark "catches fire" during the lifetime to give permanence to the personality.
    I would say it is something like this, that the spectrum of people includes ones like animals, which, in a mental interpretation, is equal to those believing in sensory information. So a human is not necessarily ensouled.

    I do not live in those states, but, in something else, for which the only kind of proof is personal experience.

    In terms of whether I can negotiate someone's skepticism or logic puzzle to refute it, no, I do not really try to interface with those questions. I would say there is a moral value in what I am doing, and ask where is the moral value in attempting to deny it.

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    Default Re: Do we have a Spirit? Do we have a Soul? And where's the proof?

    Soul & Spirit are just words definitions of what is.
    No proof or definition is needed to know I exist.
    If you believe in non duality then there is only one "without a second."

    The usual metephor -- all waves are water -- all of the Divine ocean.

    I dont need anything exterior to know "I am"
    Chris
    Be kind to all life, including your own, no matter what!!

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    Default Re: Do we have a Spirit? Do we have a Soul? And where's the proof?

    Nearly all the human beings that I have had the pleasure of being with have had one such experience or another. Experiences such as intuitions, psychic knowings, mind-readings, out-of-body experiences, divine interventions etc.

    There is no doubt or question or judgement in my heart and mind about the existence of the soul. I've had many personal experiences to show me that the soul exists with human beings and animals alike.

    Here's one incredible experience between Anna Breytenbach and a black panther.



    Rupert Sheldrake has done some fascinating work in the field of intuitions - working with humans and animals.

    For those who haven't already seen this, you can hear Rupert talk about an experiment he did from 41.17 onwards here, however, the entire video presentation is marvellous and well worth listening to.




    Here is the excerpt from his presentation - Rupert Sheldrake and Pam Smart's research experiment with Jaytee the dog. You will need to look at the subtitles if you don't speak german



    For more on Sheldrakes experiments with telepathy, you can visit his website here.

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    Default Re: Do we have a Spirit? Do we have a Soul? And where's the proof?

    The (human) mind is absolutely... fascinating.

    There is no proof that it - the mind - exists.
    Last edited by meeradas; 7th July 2020 at 08:23.

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    Default Re: Do we have a Spirit? Do we have a Soul? And where's the proof?

    everyone's debating whether we have a soul or a spirit...

    yet, we all appear to agree that we have a body.

    If "my body" belongs to me and the one I've chosen to incarnate in (in this lifetime) who am I?

    Some would say our perception and awareness is limited by our physical being (and sense).

    Yet we are much more than that but are continually fooled, told and directed via media, religion, education and governments that we are not.

    Soul / spirit /energy = we are covered by the skin suit that we chose to wear

    Wot u reckon...?

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    Default Re: Do we have a Spirit? Do we have a Soul? And where's the proof?

    Quote Posted by East Sun (here)
    We believe because we were told by religion that this is so.

    I have been pondering these questions for ever.

    There is no way for anyone to prove that we have a soul or spirit.

    We may be believers in God or whatever or be Atheists but we
    just do not know for definite.

    We hear or have been told of OBE's and they seem to be very real
    and may very well be real even though not explainable.

    That does not tell us if we have a Spirit or a Soul?

    I personally do not think we can ever know if we have a Soul or Spirit.

    That does not make us any less human.

    I hope some Spiritually advanced person can throw some light
    on my questions, without going into long rehashed dogma.

    Spare me the religion approach.

    Is there a definite proof or not.
    Hi,

    I know you do not want any religion as you stated, but I myself do not consider Buddhism as a religion, but a science of the mind, then I will post here what is taught by this unique original (or at least very close to the original teachings) Theravada Bhuddism in Thailand.

    If you are interested to know more in details about the non existence of a soul, here is the full talks > https://www.suanmokkh.org/retreat_talks/130 (Santikaro is an American ex-monk he is the direct disciple of Buddhadasa)

    "Therefore we ought to live with the awareness or the sensitivity that there is
    nothing which is an attā, an atman, a self or a soul. Weíre alive but canít find any
    of these selves or souls around." Buddhadasa Bhiku (translation from Pali)

    There is a transcript in the page if you prefer to read. It is a short e-book will not take more than 10 minutes of your time.

    Since around 2005 I started to ask the same questions as you, then I found Buddhism that answered lots of these questions, for my perception of the world, everything is in the mind or heart you can call as you wish, all things happen in the mind and all things are impermanent without exception. The Universe are bits of information, until I have enough evidences, there is no soul or self in my perception of life.

    Remarks: This place/monastery is not the same as the others in Thailand, I myself had been in hundreds of different places here, Suanmokkabalarama is an unique forest monastery located in Chaya Surat Tani (South Thailand) and they teach the very heart of Buddhism, which is something that this country forgot long time ago.
    --
    A chaos to the sense, a Kosmos to the reason.

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    Avalon Member norman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do we have a Spirit? Do we have a Soul? And where's the proof?

    East Sun, for you, what would be proof ?

    I, personally, find it harder to define what the proof would be than to move away from the place where that question is important.

    The strange thing is, when I do move away from that spot, I have something much better than proof. I have something that no longer needs prooving.
    ..................................................my first language is TYPO..............................................

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    Scotland Avalon Member scotslad's Avatar
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    Default Re: Do we have a Spirit? Do we have a Soul? And where's the proof?

    digressing slightly - "memory" - do you think its stored in the head/skull/brain

    or do we (heart and brain) act as a modem and connect to the akashic record to store and recall our memories via the ether?

    Is our physical existance a playground and learning area for us to manage our emotions and interaction with a 3d reality which we again upload to akashic records to help record our memories and experiences to aid future "lives" and physical experiences?

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    Netherlands Avalon Retired Member
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    Default Re: Do we have a Spirit? Do we have a Soul? And where's the proof?

    Quote Posted by scotslad (here)
    everyone's debating whether we have a soul or a spirit...

    yet, we all appear to agree that we have a body.

    If "my body" belongs to me and the one I've chosen to incarnate in (in this lifetime) who am I?

    Some would say our perception and awareness is limited by our physical being (and sense).

    Yet we are much more than that but are continually fooled, told and directed via media, religion, education and governments that we are not.

    Soul / spirit /energy = we are covered by the skin suit that we chose to wear

    Wot u reckon...?
    Many a vipassana practitioner who experienced some insights would argue that the body does not contain an I, even that mind is a process of continuous origination and consequence. What exactly I or Self is, is rather non-existent experientally at such levels of concentration.

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