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Thread: Communism (and China)

  1. Link to Post #141
    United States Avalon Member TwoYearsTibet,11inNanjing's Avatar
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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    I am new to this forum, Project Avalon; I've not read the remarks in this thread.
    I lived under Communism in China for 13 years, 11 in Nanjing, near Shanghai, and two years in Tibet, which was my 2nd time to Tibet. I've been to Tibet both prior and subsequent to the events of 2008. While in Nanjing I met the then Foreign Minister, Li Zhaoxing, and have spoken with a number of other ranking military (Nanjing has a large military command presence) and CCParty members. I had dinner with the top Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR) leadership in Lhasa, and on another occasion in Lhasa I had dinner with Xi Jinping, now China Pres., in Tibet, the only American ever to do so. In 1995 I met H.H. The Dalai Lama in Atlanta.
    For some of my thoughts on these things, including also the U.S. today, feel free to see my site:
    https://twoyearsintibet.com
    I also note a few personal experiences during my years there. There are also a number of photos, many of which were taken at significant personal risk.
    I make no money from twoyearsintibet; there's nothing for sale nor any advertising. Thank you.

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  3. Link to Post #142
    Australia Avalon Member Constance's Avatar
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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Quote Posted by TwoYearsTibet,11inNanjing (here)
    I am new to this forum, Project Avalon; I've not read the remarks in this thread.
    I lived under Communism in China for 13 years, 11 in Nanjing, near Shanghai, and two years in Tibet, which was my 2nd time to Tibet. I've been to Tibet both prior and subsequent to the events of 2008. While in Nanjing I met the then Foreign Minister, Li Zhaoxing, and have spoken with a number of other ranking military (Nanjing has a large military command presence) and CCParty members. I had dinner with the top Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR) leadership in Lhasa, and on another occasion in Lhasa I had dinner with Xi Jinping, now China Pres., in Tibet, the only American ever to do so. In 1995 I met H.H. The Dalai Lama in Atlanta.
    For some of my thoughts on these things, including also the U.S. today, feel free to see my site:
    https://twoyearsintibet.com
    I also note a few personal experiences during my years there. There are also a number of photos, many of which were taken at significant personal risk.
    I make no money from twoyearsintibet; there's nothing for sale nor any advertising. Thank you.
    Many thanks for sharing

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  5. Link to Post #143
    United States Moderator Sue (Ayt)'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    I read your web site journal from your application, TwoYearsTibet,11inNanjing, and I read it all in one sitting, as I was so very intrigued by your experiences.
    Your straight shooting, unbiased reporting was totally fascinating and informative to me. And your photos were simply amazing.
    I learned a lot!
    A sincere "thank you" for sharing it all with us here at PA.
    "We're all bozos on this bus"

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  7. Link to Post #144
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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Sue (Ayt),
    Thank you very much for your very kind words. I had some unique experiences, and thoughts/impressions related to these experiences, that I wanted to express. I wanted to do it in a polite, civilized, decent manner trying not to be 'confrontational', addressing topics that many folks have strongly held views about, but I also wanted to be honestly forthright with my thoughts.
    'You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar' as is said.
    I've had reactions elsewhere, mostly from CCP 'trolls' trying not to present themselves as CCP 'trolls' who posted quite virulently hateful, emotionally charged remarks toward me personally....I apparently touched a sensitive nerve, which in some respects is what I wanted to do, but as politely and sensibly as I could manage.
    There are bad people and bad ideologies in this world that must be exposed....and questions that must be asked.
    I'm very worried about how things are in my country, USA, with such polarized divisiveness in how we are treating each other. While I had strongly held things to say, I didn't want to contribute to all this awful antagonism and ill-will so many folks feel for each other these days.
    Thank you again for your kind words.
    David
    Don't just eat a hamburger; eat the hell out of a hamburger.

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Thank you for sharing your story which I read in one go - so interesting!

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  11. Link to Post #146
    United States Avalon Member TwoYearsTibet,11inNanjing's Avatar
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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Jill,
    Thank you very much for your kind thoughts, and your time to have read what I wrote.
    David
    Don't just eat a hamburger; eat the hell out of a hamburger.

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Thanks David and welcome to Avalon. I think you will fit right in, and you've already made a great contribution.
    I'm very curious about the 3 Gorges Dam in China, because if it fails anytime soon, it would be a huge calamity, and not just for China.
    But it's very difficult finding any accurate news about it.
    Do you have any current inside sources?
    Thanks.
    Each breath a gift...
    _____________

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    United States Avalon Member TwoYearsTibet,11inNanjing's Avatar
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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Onawah,
    Thanks for your kind words. I am an irregular visitor, so please pardon any perceived delays in my response to any inquiry from yourself or anyone else.
    It's difficult to get accurate information about goings-on in China, particularly information about 'big' things like the dam, or anything political. I don't like to make generalizations, but generally Chinese folks don't 'participate' politically...they never really have as they've always been subject to rule by an emperor, khan, warlord, or now the CCP, none of which allowed for/encouraged the participation of the general populace in political matters, as opposed to Western representative/Constitutional republics where it's the people's duty to hold their gov'ts accountable. (The U.S. isn't a democracy, which is essentially 2 wolves and 1 sheep voting on what to have for lunch....the sheep says 'I'll vote for a salad", and the wolves say "OK, you have a salad, a big one!, and then we'll vote on what we'll have for lunch! And how about some tasty chicken on that big salad too to make you nice and fat?, it's very fresh" to which the sheep replies, "Say, that reminds me, I haven't seen my friend Clucky the chicken today, I wonder where he is..." ha, ha!)
    The 3 Gorges Dam is a damn dam, (and I'm from Tennessee, home of the TVA that, unlike that ridiculous 3 Gorges Dam, actually harnessed/controlled a complete river system with high dams on the Tennessee River tributaries for flood control and low dams with locks on the Tennessee River itself to allow for navigation), 3 Gorges Dam is a boondoggle disaster (the Chang Jiang/Yangtze still floods) that made a bunch of money for the Li Peng family. Li was in charge during the '89 Tiananmen demonstrations/ordered the crackdown. If it were to 'fail' in some way, cities immediately downstream would be severely flooded(many millions of people in these immediately downstream cities alone) with cities further down its flood plain also being affected but less so the further away they are. It would be an awful disaster for these folks along the Chang Jiang (Yangtze) flood basin; but for the rest of China, the effect would be more economic, rather than actual direct flooding, with a severe impact on food production as a lot of farmland, which is in the Chang Jiang basin, would be flooded. Depending on the nature/severity of a 'failure', the people would naturally be quite upset with the CCP as well. I've seen some satellite photos on the internet of the 3 Gorges Dam now 'bent' in places....I certainly wouldn't want to be immediately down-river from it.

    I do maintain contacts in China......

    On another matter, the Wuhan Virus, the 'official' story is that it came from a fresh market to which I say nonsense. I would go to these markets, which exist in every neighborhood in every city and town in China and have so for many thousands of years just like they exist today, easily once a week for the nearly 13 years I was in China regularly buying my vegetables, eggs and meat at these markets having never gotten sick once, never. I most probably have also, UNKNOWINGLY!, eaten dog meat as well. I know for a fact it's been served to me which I politely declined; it looked like dark, stringy pulled pork. So I know these markets, and I know the CCP. While I of course know nothing for certain about the virus, my assessment based on my knowledge of both the fresh markets and the CCP is that it's most certainly from the Wuhan virology lab, enhanced with gain-of-function properties. This is pretty much all I'll venture to say about the virus; anything else would be complete speculation.
    The fact is, I don't know, about either the virus or the effect of a 3 Gorges Dam 'failure'. All I can offer is only some slightly educated speculation.
    OK, that's all for now...busy, many things to do....
    Thank you...
    Don't just eat a hamburger; eat the hell out of a hamburger.

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Much appreciate your personal contributions David.

    According to some, these arrests over organ harvesting are CCP SPIN to show the world that they are the good guys.

    https://www.theepochtimes.com/mkt_br...SECURE_LINK%5D

    Do you have any anecdotals on how Chinese citizens feel about the organ harvesting dilemma and/or treatment of Falun Gong practitioners?

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    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    I'm joining the chorus of members here who are delighted you're here with us to share your many fascinating stories.

    Do by all means copy as much as you like from https://twoyearsintibet.com and also post it here (or on a standalone thread if more appropriate: the mods team can easily move anything around).

    My own question, if I may: can you comment on the Chinese Social Credit system?

    We recently had a number of posts from an expat Chinese woman (username Rain Forest, now resident in Canada) to the effect that all that was an exaggerated untruth, hyped by the western anti-CCP propaganda machine. (My paraphrase.) I'd be confident you could supply us with a balanced, first-hand account.

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    Scotland Avalon Member ByTheNorthernSea's Avatar
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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Hi David, forgive my possibly naive question, but we hear so much speculation that the CCP is actively implementing a long-term plan to eventually dominate & control the world, did you ever hear anything first-hand to back this up?

    Fantastic BTW to have you here & to listen your experiences & views on what is a fascinating but still very much closed off (at least to us here in the West) country such as China.
    Last edited by ByTheNorthernSea; 27th April 2021 at 21:09.

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    I came across this interesting question and answer being posted on Quora,

    If the Chinese system is so effective why does it only work in China and not in other developing nations ?

    Understand Quora is another forum-like platform where anybody can post questions and anyone can reply but people with doctoral degrees compete for the best answers , in some cases.
    There is lots of interesting material but is politically controlled in subtle ways just like the rest of your media and strategically pro Chinese.

    Even then, the first answer to the question of “Chinese social credit system” traces its origins somewhere back to the Qing dynasty and further, teachings of Confucius ( likewise Buddha and Lao’tzu ) who all taught by principle that person should be judged by his merit not by his birth.



    Check also for painting of Confucius


    ( 🙏 )

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    I'm joining the chorus of members here who are delighted you're here with us to share your many fascinating stories.

    Do by all means copy as much as you like from https://twoyearsintibet.com and also post it here (or on a standalone thread if more appropriate: the mods team can easily move anything around).

    My own question, if I may: can you comment on the Chinese Social Credit system?

    We recently had a number of posts from an expat Chinese woman (username Rain Forest, now resident in Canada) to the effect that all that was an exaggerated untruth, hyped by the western anti-CCP propaganda machine. (My paraphrase.) I'd be confident you could supply us with a balanced, first-hand account.
    I couldn't help laughing when I saw her post. Don't get me wrong, I was not laughing at her post, just for those kinds of comments and ways of thinking was so familiar to me. It even made me feel at home, haha. Her post reflected a very very typical way of how Chinese people seeing what is happening now in China and in the world. Bill, I have to say that she indeed represents what lots of Chinese people, old or young, are thinking and believing at the moment.

    I haven't been back to China for years, so I can't say what I am saying is the complete real situation now in China, but from the perceptions of my families and friends in China and some Chinese social media comments, I feel that people in China completely haven't realised how dangerous this social credit system can be.

    I didn't do any research on this issue before, but passively heard some discussions about this in Chinese half official media. It has been controversial, but people very likely wouldn't really resist the rolling out once the central/local governments determined to implement the credit system

    It seems that this social credit system is mainly rolled out in country side, some relatively remote and unwealthy villages, at the current stage, and with a few big cities on trial (I'm not sure of this, but from the news I heard, I feel like this way). People in unwealthy small villages are easier to control and more obedient.

    I think I probably kind of am able to understand why some expat Chinese would support things happening in China (surely there were paid trolls) even though the reason why they chose to leave China was related to disatisfactions towards Chinese society or things happened in China. Being an easterner in the west is never easy, sometimes people get lost and struggle with who they are. Although there would always be other ways of finding who we are, sometimes it would seem to be only two ways -- to try to forget who I am and get lost or to remember firmly that I am a Chinese. It is really not easy to remember or understand clearly all the time that you are your soul.
    When expat Chinese try to protect ourselves from the cultural shock (some people may believe that cultural shock is the first few years thing, actually it can be a lifelong thing), we can forget why we left China, we can love China, our motherland, with "unconditional love", no matter what is happening there. And people can also forget the difference between China, the land and people, and Chinese governments. This cultural and psychological difficulties can be taken advantage of politically.
    Last edited by LJY; 27th April 2021 at 17:09.

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Falun Gong practitioners probably have a bad name as bad as KKK in US, or Natzi in Germany, if I can make that metaphor. Even if I am a bit exaggerated, you could imagine how Chinese people see Falun Gong and its practitioners. They see them as bad ( if not evil) secret cult. And I myself held the same idea for years, even after I came overseas and saw flyers on the street saying that CCP harvesting organs from innocent Falun Gong practitioners, I just didn't believe it, until years later, I saw an extraordinarily dead body exhibition, I shockingly believed it was all true.

    However, to most of people in China, I don't see a way, in a near future, that could let the Chinese public know what was really going on to Falun Gong in those years.

    By the way, I still don't have a good impression to Falun Gong though. I doubt they've been working for US democratics or Chinese Jiang Zemin political power group.

    Sorry, David. I responded two questions which were for you. I just felt that I have something to say on those questions. Eager to hear your thoughts
    Last edited by LJY; 27th April 2021 at 17:02.

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Oh!, thank you all for your interest and remarks! I'm quite humbled/honored, especially in light of the reactions on a couple other different web site articles' comment sections of some of the CCP high school/college kids who think their English is good enough to pass themselves off as non-Chinese from elsewhere, often the U.S. Another giveaway is a bit more subtle, but if you've spent enough time in China, it is noticeable, and that is (again I'm generalizing as in my previous post...) how they react to/deal with/instigate 'confrontation'. One of the first things I learned when I first got to China, 2/05, from some old-hand expatriates was never to confront/show anger/emotion when faced with some problem, that it would only make things worse as not only would the problem remain but because I would've 'confronted' someone about some problem/trouble I felt they were giving me, then the issue of 'losing face' also arises. Yes, sure there are often situations when Chinese are openly angry/emotional with each other, but to do it like we do in the West...we think nothing of being open, blunt and direct with each other in just about any situation, but the Chinese are far more 'circuitous' about things. So, I think we in the West are more nuanced and in control when 'confronting', especially when it's of a lower level...we can, in my mind, control the level/intensity of 'confrontation' better, because it's part of our social behavior. Chinese in social situations do just about everything they can to avoid 'confronting', to 'save face'; for us 'confrontation' is just another standard/normal part of how our society operates, so, in my mind, we're more used to it. So, in these comment sections' remarks I can see, to me, odd levels of confrontational intensity in these 'CCP trolls' language/tone, such as a very first comment might be extremely virulent and personally hateful (one even, clearly trying to goad me, talked about my Dad (a WWII paratrooper I describe in my site) being "a trained killer"....ouch!, very insulting! not nice at all! even though technically he was right, soldiers ARE 'trained killers', but my Dad was a trained Nazi-killer) turning the confrontational intensity all the way up to 10 right out of the gate when we Westerners, generally, might be at a 3 or 4.

    Anyway, thus far, you folks, those that have taken the trouble to comment, are being quite nice to me, thank you very much.
    I'll respond as I can to everyone, but in a couple days please...I'm busy and I want to thoroughly address everyone as best I can (you all were kind enough to have commented/asked about some things & without being hateful/nasty, thank you again!, so it's only decent/polite for me to respond in kind) so I need a bit of time please....I'll respond back here in a couple days....right now I'm in fact running out of time to finish this message!
    So, I'll end this post now with something, all I have time for at the moment, so sorry! an old China hand told me when I first arrived there which stuck in my mind all these years since.
    He said, and I'm paraphrasing, "You've been in China for 3 weeks and you feel you could write a book about it, 3 months in China and you could write an article about it, 3 years in China and you have nothing to say." (But after my own 13 years, now I've got all kinds of things to say, so I kind of blew that notion out of the water, ha!) Anyway, it took a long time for me to get my head wrapped around his remark....my distillation is this: in China if it can possibly exist within the realm of human experience, it exists there, so what is there to say?
    OK, out of time, must go now. I'll respond back soon.
    Thank you very much....
    Don't just eat a hamburger; eat the hell out of a hamburger.

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    Avalon Member Andre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    This part of the old timer's description sounds like they all preferred to be clones - same food, clothes, cars, everything. Same thoughts too I imagine. Sounds like hell to me.

    Quote Posted by chancy (here)
    I asked him through a translator ( my wife ) do you like democracy? He told me he Hated it! As he continued he told me under communism everyone was equal. Same apartment. Same food. Same clothes. Same car. Same everything. Everyone was the same in this sense. What you believed was the same. Etc. Etc. No theft etc because you would just get more of the same. After all that had happened to this man in Communism he told me he would still pick Communism.
    Our destiny is in our hands. Let us visualise a world of truth, freedom and equality.

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    Canada Avalon Member TomKat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Quote Posted by Mashika (here)
    Hi Gemma13,

    I believe there is a great misunderstanding on what's going on these days on China, Russia and related countries/regions

    As it really stands right now, people on west have continued to believe that "communism" is a thing, and a danger for years and years to come. However, that's not even the case anymore, but please allow me to explain a bit

    On Russia, China and other "communist" countries, there is a movement growing, specifically in young people, which is named something like "uber-modernity"

    This is kind of communism, or socialistic beliefs, but not quite, it has dropped all they considered caused the last iteration to fail, specifically why the USSR died under its own weight

    There are several, multinational groups forming youth armies and reaching into students to teach this new approach to their world view, one that drops all the mistakes from the past, conforms a new view and philosophy around the old principles, while avoiding introducing the mistakes from the past and so on

    You can look more into that if you go search for stuff like the "Essence of Time" cult, among several others "youth armies" around those places

    *By the way i don't subscribe or belong to any, i just know about them

    What i see is this, most people in the west keep looking into communism as a danger, while most eastern young (8 to 28 or so) keep looking into how the communist view is obsolete and retarded, and push for a new view which the west is not even aware of

    By the time the west realizes that they were not looking at the right place, it will be too late, because most young people in the east believe the old communist views are done for, and they have their own views, which are not even acknowledged on the west, by own choice, or lack of. There is a complete view which is out of sync with reality

    While in the east most people learn about real hard history and prepare for a hard future (see the Russian youth army, or the Nashi), in the US at least more kids the same age can not even write their own language, much less understand implications of wars or politics and so

    While in the East a Nashi or youth army kid can disassemble a rifle and reassemble in 30 seconds, in the US kids can only watch Tiktok all day and talk half English written sentences and play with guns on games, while the eastern kids play with real guns and go take advanced classes of history, math and science

    Current US army stands around 1+ million soldiers, just alone, in Russia, the youth army is closing in on that number. This means, kids from 8 years to 17 are in the numbers of 800 thousand, all well prepared, all with high education, all ready for combat, and same in China and other eastern countries

    And example of this approach to life is something like this

    Western kid: 1+1 = 2
    Asian kid: 1 is followed by 1.1, then 1.2, then 1.3... and so on, until you reach 2

    Discernment among all things, clear understanding of the world is a must, not just to pass an exam, or have a high level view. This applies to every single aspect of life, since it's considered a good practice and commitment to excellence

    But this is inheritance of the elders on the west, there's no one else to blame, just to be clear on that and to be just, no one else caused it

    I believe, western countries are not even aware of what's really going on in the world. Communism, for the new people on the east, is ridiculously obsolete. Yet look at news channels and papers on western countries, it's funny, they still go by the old standards that matter nothing at all anymore. Once the new generation comes into power in both sides, one will be prepared, the other one will try to apply obsolete knowledge to people that don't even care anymore. That's what "being left behind" looks like in the end

    The only reason why western countries believe China is "communist" is because they can't understand what's happening and attempt to apply obsolete views into a country they can't understand at all, and that's why they continue to fall behind year after year. It is obvious if you look from the outside, but lamentably not so for people on the inside

    ETA:

    I guess what i'm really trying to say is this

    IF you would try to apply the current western understanding of communism to your own countries, it would be a total disaster, because even people on China and Russia, just threw it out to garbage bin

    In Russia, the Soviets are still around, claiming power and their money back, yet they kept saying back then, that those things did not matter In the end it did matter i guess

    The new concepts are completely unknown in western world, and i believe that's why people think those can be applied freely, if possible, however that's not and probably will never be the case "heaven forbid" lol. Repeating the same mistakes of the past is not a good thing to do

    Even after tons of decades, there's still a giant confusion about the difference between communism and socialism
    Youth armies? Sounds like Communism died and Fascism was born, both in China and Russia. But isn't that always the case? State-owned businesses always fail without subsidies and Fascism is just more practical. Communism has always been turn-key Fascism.

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    OK, here are a few comments, for whatever they might be worth.....

    ________________________________________________
    "According to some, these arrests over organ harvesting are CCP SPIN to show the world that they are the good guys.
    https://www.theepochtimes.com/mkt_br...SECURE_LINK%5D
    Do you have any anecdotals on how Chinese citizens feel about the organ harvesting dilemma and/or treatment of Falun Gong practitioners?"


    A number of my remarks here are generalizations, there are of course be exceptions. Generally, ordinary Chinese ‘go along to get along’, speaking out/expressing one’s own individual mind about…, especially about political or ‘sensitive’ social matters is generally viewed as ‘rocking the boat’/causing trouble. Confucian ‘harmony’ in society is highly valued in China, something the CCP takes advantage of greatly to insure their grip on power. The CCP does everything it can to legitimize itself (remember Communism is a foreign ideology from a, very un-Han Chinese European Jew), such as whenever the Party presents itself to the People in Tiananmen Square they never position themselves in front of the edifice of Chinese Communist State power, the Great Hall of the People, but rather always up on the dais of Tiananmen Gate itself with the Forbidden City behind them, the traditional seat of Imperial Chinese power, to link the CCP with traditional Imperial China. Tiananmen Square is laid out with the Great Hall of the People and the China National Museum on opposing sides with Mao’s mausoleum and Tiananmen Gate leading into the Forbidden City on the other opposing sides. These sorts of things, political and socially ‘sensitive’, ordinary Chinese speak little of, openly, so as not to ‘rock the boat’/attract the Party’s attention to themselves. Also, many ordinary Chinese don’t know about things like the organ harvesting, it’s certainly not covered in any ‘news’ broadcasts, and is in fact ‘kept under wraps. Falun Gong is essentially dead in China, no one would dare to practice it openly in public as had been done so in the past, especially in large groups. If practiced at all, it is done in secret in the privacy of one’s home. And the Party has brainwashed much of the population into believing Falun Gong/Falun Dafa is an unbeneficial 'cult' practice that encourages ‘disharmony’.

    “…CCP spin to show the world that they are the good guys.” Well, yes, I suppose to a degree this is the case, but China/the CCP doesn’t really give a damn what the world thinks of them. They see themselves as the ‘representatives’ of a culture/society that has existed continuously through many great ups and downs for many thousands of years who answers to no one, certainly not anyone from the upstart ‘new kids on the block’ West with its active, direct participation of the people in their own governance, seen as an anomalous aberration by the CCP in the course of human history that will, in time, naturally fail of its own accord. The CCP sees something like, for instance, a Brooklyn bartender (crack-pot Socialist AOC) getting directly from a bartender, via election by the, to me, apparently foolish voters in her district, to a seat in Congress, as ridiculous. Such a thing would never happen in Communist China. To rise to a position of power one would have to join the Party, taking the oath of loyalty/allegiance, and over time, via demonstrated local governing competence and more so showing ideological orthodoxy and obedience, slowly rising through the ranks to higher positions of power. There is also, however, the traditional Chinese societal element of ‘guanxi’ (loosely and not really accurately translated as ‘relationships’) that plays a part along with outright Old World corruption as well.
    ___________________________________________

    "I'm joining the chorus of members here who are delighted you're here with us to share your many fascinating stories.
    Do by all means copy as much as you like from https://twoyearsintibet.com and also post it here (or on a standalone thread if more appropriate: the mods team can easily move anything around)."


    Thank you very much, Mr. Ryan. I may very well do that......
    ___________________________________________________

    "My own question, if I may: can you comment on the Chinese Social Credit system?
    We recently had a number of posts from an expat Chinese woman (username Rain Forest, now resident in Canada) to the effect that all that was an exaggerated untruth, hyped by the western anti-CCP propaganda machine. (My paraphrase.) I'd be confident you could supply us with a balanced, first-hand account."


    I'm not sure how "balanced" I am, but.....I left China in 2018; this social credit system wasn’t really up and running/fully in place then.
    I’ve had a few communications with contacts since then about it. Under the CCP there’s always been an unofficial sort of ‘scoring system’, but primarily for political/socially ‘sensitive’ things. This new social credit score system, now more official/codified, is now including non-political behavior such as economic, e.g. if one were to get a loan from a bank and not pay it off properly, then you’re scored negatively, or for more ‘ordinary’ less socially ‘sensitive’ conduct that is seen as ‘inharmonious’, such as someone who is a ‘problem’ drinker, often getting drunk, causing fights publicly, causing commotion at home bothering the neighbors who then complain to the neighborhood/building CCP cadres….these sorts of things are now part of the scoring system, which the people don’t like…..it’s a gradual tightening of the screws of control on the people that in the past was pretty much only in the political/socially ‘sensitive’ arena, now it involves more ‘ordinary’ aspects of daily life, so the Chinese generally don’t like it, but there’s nothing they can really do about it, so they ‘go along to get along.
    _____________________________________________________

    "Hi David, forgive my possibly naive question, but we hear so much speculation that the CCP is actively implementing a long-term plan to eventually dominate & control the world, did you ever hear anything first-hand to back this up?
    Fantastic BTW to have you here & to listen your experiences & views on what is a fascinating but still very much closed off (at least to us here in the West) country such as China."


    Thank you, Yes I've heard such from a few Party members, but not so much as something that requires active instigating to achieve, Communists/Socialists see their way as a ‘natural’ progression of human/social development, that the West’s way of active, direct participation of the People in their own governance, and general Freedom on the part of the populace, is an anomalous aberration historically that will over time fail of its own accord, but they also do actively work to ‘nudge’ their ideology along/speed up what they see as its ‘natural’ progression.
    ________________________________________________________________

    "I came across this interesting question and answer being posted on Quora,
    If the Chinese system is so effective why does it only work in China and not in other developing nations ?
    Understand Quora is another forum-like platform where anybody can post questions and anyone can reply but people with doctoral degrees compete for the best answers , in some cases.
    There is lots of interesting material but is politically controlled in subtle ways just like the rest of your media and strategically pro Chinese.
    Even then, the first answer to the question of “Chinese social credit system” traces its origins somewhere back to the Qing dynasty and further, teachings of Confucius ( likewise Buddha and Lao’tzu ) who all taught by principle that person should be judged by his merit not by his birth.
    Check also for painting of Confucius"


    What is meant in the question by “Chinese system”, the CCP with its ‘Chinese characteristics’ or traditional Chinese Confucianism? And “so effective” how, in what “effective” manner? For instance, when the Party/gov’t decides to build some new subway system, it just goes out and does it, quite effectively, but also by possibly razing entire neighborhoods, etc. paying now displaced home and business owners far less than what their homes/businesses are worth, so in this sense a totalitarian/Communist/State gov’t is in such respects, “effective”. In the West, our gov’ts with so much public participation can be quite messy and seemingly chaotic in making decisions about things like if/how/when/where to put in a new subway line for instance. When I first arrived in China, (Nanjing) in Feb 2005, a few months later the city’s first brand new subway line opened, very modern, sleek and efficient. Over the years many more lines were built including, along with a separate vehicle, car/truck, tunnel as well, one tunneled under the very broad Yangtze River to a suburb…..with just the decision of the CCP to do it, no public meetings for instance where local residents could bitch/complain/offer input about how this infrastructure plan would be implemented through their neighborhoods. I came back to the US, Atlanta, and saw how one of Atlanta’s MARTA subway lines from years ago still only went to the beginning suburb area, (Doraville station), when the growth of the city seemingly warranted expansion of the subway line further into suburban Gwinnett County, but it had never occurred apparently due to an inability to come to a consensus by local gov’ts and citizenry if it should occur and how, etc.
    So, in a sense, Communist totalitarianism is in some respects more “effective”…..but personally I’ll take messy, chaotic Freedom any day.

    I’m not very clear about what you’re getting at/mean with this, very sorry: “Even then, the first answer to the question of “Chinese social credit system” traces its origins somewhere back to the Qing dynasty and further, teachings of Confucius ( likewise Buddha and Lao’tzu ) who all taught by principle that person should be judged by his merit not by his birth.”
    _____________________________________________________________________

    "We recently had a number of posts from an expat Chinese woman (username Rain Forest, now resident in Canada) to the effect that all that was an exaggerated untruth, hyped by the western anti-CCP propaganda machine. (My paraphrase.) I'd be confident you could supply us with a balanced, first-hand account.
    I couldn't help laughing when I saw her post. Don't get me wrong, I was not laughing at her post, just for those kinds of comments and ways of thinking was so familiar to me. It even made me feel at home, haha. Her post reflected a very very typical way of how Chinese people seeing what is happening now in China and in the world. Bill, I have to say that she indeed represents what lots of Chinese people, old or young, are thinking and believing at the moment.
    I haven't been back to China for years, so I can't say what I am saying is the complete real situation now in China, but from the perceptions of my families and friends in China and some Chinese social media comments, I feel that people in China completely haven't realised how dangerous this social credit system can be.
    I didn't do any research on this issue before, but passively heard some discussions about this in Chinese half official media. It has been controversial, but people very likely wouldn't really resist the rolling out once the central/local governments determined to implement the credit system
    It seems that this social credit system is mainly rolled out in country side, some relatively remote and unwealthy villages, at the current stage, and with a few big cities on trial (I'm not sure of this, but from the news I heard, I feel like this way). People in unwealthy small villages are easier to control and more obedient.
    I think I probably kind of am able to understand why some expat Chinese would support things happening in China (surely there were paid trolls) even though the reason why they chose to leave China was related to disatisfactions towards Chinese society or things happened in China. Being an easterner in the west is never easy, sometimes people get lost and struggle with who they are. Although there would always be other ways of finding who we are, sometimes it would seem to be only two ways -- to try to forget who I am and get lost or to remember firmly that I am a Chinese. It is really not easy to remember or understand clearly all the time that you are your soul.
    When expat Chinese try to protect ourselves from the cultural shock (some people may believe that cultural shock is the first few years thing, actually it can be a lifelong thing), we can forget why we left China, we can love China, our motherland, with "unconditional love", no matter what is happening there. And people can also forget the difference between China, the land and people, and Chinese governments. This cultural and psychological difficulties can be taken advantage of politically.
    Falun Gong practitioners probably have a bad name as bad as KKK in US, or Natzi in Germany, if I can make that metaphor. Even if I am a bit exaggerated, you could imagine how Chinese people see Falun Gong and its practitioners. They see them as bad ( if not evil) secret cult. And I myself held the same idea for years, even after I came overseas and saw flyers on the street saying that CCP harvesting organs from innocent Falun Gong practitioners, I just didn't believe it, until years later, I saw an extraordinarily dead body exhibition, I shockingly believed it was all true.
    However, to most of people in China, I don't see a way, in a near future, that could let the Chinese public know what was really going on to Falun Gong in those years.
    By the way, I still don't have a good impression to Falun Gong though. I doubt they've been working for US democratics or Chinese Jiang Zemin political power group.
    Sorry, David. I responded two questions which were for you . I just felt that I have something to say on those questions. Eager to hear your thoughts"


    I understand, thank you very much, there are some good points here. I certainly understand about the 'culture shock', both for Chinese in the West and Westerners in China. For an ordinary American Tennessee man like myself, China is in many respects a real 'trip', sometimes literally.....(luggage packing tip for any visit to China: Leave the LSD or any other psychedelics at home, not necessary!) As to Falun Gong, my impression is that it's simply a positive practice to improve one's bodily health and spiritual well-being, a good thing generally, but the CCP saw it as a threat to their 'authority', so they of course demonized it.
    _____________________________________________________________

    "This part of the old timer's description sounds like they all preferred to be clones - same food, clothes, cars, everything. Same thoughts too I imagine. Sounds like hell to me.
    Posted by chancy (here)
    I asked him through a translator ( my wife ) do you like democracy? He told me he Hated it! As he continued he told me under communism everyone was equal. Same apartment. Same food. Same clothes. Same car. Same everything. Everyone was the same in this sense. What you believed was the same. Etc. Etc. No theft etc because you would just get more of the same. After all that had happened to this man in Communism he told me he would still pick Communism."


    I can understand this; he’s used to and comfortable with the ‘order’ and ‘safety’ of Communism; Freedom is messy, chaotic, and risky……you enjoy the fruits of your own success and suffer the pain of your own failures. Communism/Socialism is for ‘children’ who aren’t grown-up enough yet to accept/handle the risk that is Freedom, that the State/gov’t should ‘take care’ of me.
    ______________________________________________________

    " Posted by Mashika (here)
    Hi Gemma13,
    I believe there is a great misunderstanding on what's going on these days on China, Russia and related countries/regions
    As it really stands right now, people on west have continued to believe that "communism" is a thing, and a danger for years and years to come. However, that's not even the case anymore, but please allow me to explain a bit
    On Russia, China and other "communist" countries, there is a movement growing, specifically in young people, which is named something like "uber-modernity"
    This is kind of communism, or socialistic beliefs, but not quite, it has dropped all they considered caused the last iteration to fail, specifically why the USSR died under its own weight
    There are several, multinational groups forming youth armies and reaching into students to teach this new approach to their world view, one that drops all the mistakes from the past, conforms a new view and philosophy around the old principles, while avoiding introducing the mistakes from the past and so on
    You can look more into that if you go search for stuff like the "Essence of Time" cult, among several others "youth armies" around those places
    *By the way i don't subscribe or belong to any, i just know about them
    What i see is this, most people in the west keep looking into communism as a danger, while most eastern young (8 to 28 or so) keep looking into how the communist view is obsolete and retarded, and push for a new view which the west is not even aware of
    By the time the west realizes that they were not looking at the right place, it will be too late, because most young people in the east believe the old communist views are done for, and they have their own views, which are not even acknowledged on the west, by own choice, or lack of. There is a complete view which is out of sync with reality
    While in the east most people learn about real hard history and prepare for a hard future (see the Russian youth army, or the Nashi), in the US at least more kids the same age can not even write their own language, much less understand implications of wars or politics and so
    While in the East a Nashi or youth army kid can disassemble a rifle and reassemble in 30 seconds, in the US kids can only watch Tiktok all day and talk half English written sentences and play with guns on games, while the eastern kids play with real guns and go take advanced classes of history, math and science
    Current US army stands around 1+ million soldiers, just alone, in Russia, the youth army is closing in on that number. This means, kids from 8 years to 17 are in the numbers of 800 thousand, all well prepared, all with high education, all ready for combat, and same in China and other eastern countries
    And example of this approach to life is something like this
    Western kid: 1+1 = 2
    Asian kid: 1 is followed by 1.1, then 1.2, then 1.3... and so on, until you reach 2
    Discernment among all things, clear understanding of the world is a must, not just to pass an exam, or have a high level view. This applies to every single aspect of life, since it's considered a good practice and commitment to excellence
    But this is inheritance of the elders on the west, there's no one else to blame, just to be clear on that and to be just, no one else caused it
    I believe, western countries are not even aware of what's really going on in the world. Communism, for the new people on the east, is ridiculously obsolete. Yet look at news channels and papers on western countries, it's funny, they still go by the old standards that matter nothing at all anymore. Once the new generation comes into power in both sides, one will be prepared, the other one will try to apply obsolete knowledge to people that don't even care anymore. That's what "being left behind" looks like in the end
    The only reason why western countries believe China is "communist" is because they can't understand what's happening and attempt to apply obsolete views into a country they can't understand at all, and that's why they continue to fall behind year after year. It is obvious if you look from the outside, but lamentably not so for people on the inside
    ETA:
    I guess what i'm really trying to say is this
    IF you would try to apply the current western understanding of communism to your own countries, it would be a total disaster, because even people on China and Russia, just threw it out to garbage bin
    In Russia, the Soviets are still around, claiming power and their money back, yet they kept saying back then, that those things did not matter In the end it did matter i guess
    The new concepts are completely unknown in western world, and i believe that's why people think those can be applied freely, if possible, however that's not and probably will never be the case "heaven forbid" lol. Repeating the same mistakes of the past is not a good thing to do
    Even after tons of decades, there's still a giant confusion about the difference between communism and socialism
    Youth armies? Sounds like Communism died and Fascism was born, both in China and Russia. But isn't that always the case? State-owned businesses always fail without subsidies and Fascism is just more practical. Communism has always been turn-key Fascism."


    Thanks for your remarks; I’m afraid I’m not altogether clear on them, very sorry, but I think I get the general gist of what you’re getting at,….I think.
    Officially, China is and considers itself to be ‘Communist’; it’s all in the language of gov’t/State pronouncements, there are portraits of Mao, and often Marx, Engels, Lenin & Stalin (as depicted in my site) displayed not only in gov’t buildings, but often businesses as well. In Mao’s mausoleum where his body is on display, he is not covered in the Chinese flag, with its four small stars representing the 1)farmer, 2)worker(as in a factory), 3)intellectual(teachers, writers, etc.) and 4)soldier, & single large star representing the Communist Party, but rather Mao is draped in the hammer and sickle flag of the Communist Soviet Union. Yet, and especially so since its increasing openness, China’s young people are more and more enamored with Western culture and freedom. Chinese young people are very much trying to find their own place, individually, in the greater world at large, to express themselves as individuals, such as in their choice of clothing, hair styles, etc. In my site I quote a CCP official's remark to me, “Foreigners are poison”. He was absolutely right….China’s youth is slowly being ‘infected’ by Western ideas of individuality and individual freedom, but this isn’t to say Chinese youth are also less patriotic and supportive of their country, and gov’t, they are, generally, very patriotic, proud (rightfully so) of their many thousands of years of culture, traditions, achievements, but they’re also very ‘into’ outside influences and ideas. For instance, Chinese, and especially in Nanjing, absolutely hate the Japanese for what was done to them in WWII (Rape of Nanking, Unit 731, etc), but they, especially Chinese young people, are very much ‘into’ Japanese culture, such as anime. They love Western movies, sports, and music. Lhasa, Tibet actually has a few rock and roll bands!!!, including this all-girl rock band (that I had taken a bit of video of that I fear I’ve since accidentally deleted!), young high school-ish age with their electric guitars, bass, drums all playing as hard as they could, just like American kids in a garage band…it was really something!!!!!! So, while China is in some respects increasingly ‘Westernizing’(in some respects), we stupid Westerners are becoming more Socialistic/Communistic, not realizing how fortunate we are to have the Freedom that we do.

    But I knew all the talk, from these globalists SOBs, about how when China was 'opened up', got all our Western investment, manufacturing relocation, became pat of the WTO, etc, that China would become more 'liberalized', freer, Westernized, that it was basically BS, and the globalists knew it was BS (globalists want the world to be more Socialist/Communist like China to allow them for more control/power over us, as in their disgusting 'Great Reset'..."you'll own nothing and you'll be happy" in the spirit of Socialist abolition of private property, etc.). China is China....

    I would see on WeChat, the now ubiquitous phone social media/messaging thing in China ads for jobs for foreigners placed by Chinese saying things like "foreigner wanted for XXXX job, no blacks wanted, white people only", or "no ugly people wanted", things like this, and newly arrived American college kids full of their piss & vinegar 'social justice warrior' selves getting all 'triggered' about how racist China is, etc. and that it "must be stopped!", to which I thought, 'Good luck with that you naive kids'......You don't change China; China changes you.

    I had to look up this quote used to describe China I’d been familiar with for a long time, something to the effect that China is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma. Turns out it was from Churchill commenting about the Soviet Union & WWII, but has been applied to China in years since. In many respects I agree, China is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.

    Ok, that's it. Thanks again very much for your interest folks.
    Last edited by TwoYearsTibet,11inNanjing; 30th April 2021 at 19:33.
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  37. Link to Post #159
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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    There was a college age Chinese guy I met in Nanjing who, like many Chinese young people these days, was really into 'foreign' things, Western culture....he dressed in a bit more individual, daring way with blue jeans & a leather jacket like a James Dean rebel type, smoked, and had longish hair that was slicked over like a '50s greaser tough guy, even had a tattoo, and he acted the part too.
    So, he's telling me how he thinks America is so "cool" because we're "free to do what we want", etc.... and I ask what kind of music he liked, thinking he'd answer with some hard rock/heavy metal 'bad boy' rock n' rollers....he says...

    "Sarah Brightman"

    East is east and West is west and never the twain shall meet....in some ways so very true!, in other ways...?????
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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Hopefully my upload works....here's an example of a foreign influence 'poisoning' China.....in Lhasa no less.
    Warning, extremely graphic!

    (Actually, this sort of thing is common in China, mostly so in cities, but not so much in the West, Tibet/Xizang, Xinjiang, Qinghai, Gansu)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

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