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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Quote Posted by TomKat (here)
    Quote Posted by Constance (here)
    In 1989 when I visited Czechoslovakia, communism was just in the throws of being dismantled. These were my impressions and personal experiences whilst there.

    Upon my first arriving by train into Prague, it was eerie standing on the platform. It wasn't like any other train platform that I had visited, not the usual hub bub my travelling eyes and ears were used to. It was hushed and quiet, even though it was busy. The atmosphere felt heavy and depressed. I felt like I had suddenly stepped into the twilight zone.

    As soon as we had started to walk towards the exit, myself and others were surrounded by the local Czechs. All held up crudely written signs in english inviting us to stay with them. There was one woman in particular that caught my attention. She was a tiny slip of a woman. She was so eager to have us stay and pulled at my sleeve gently, her english non-existent. But we understood each other. She looked so ill and tired and worn out. My heart went out to her.

    The person I was travelling with agreed with me that we should stay with her, and so we followed her. At one point, we were walking down one of the Old Town streets. Again I was struck by how busy it was on both sides of the street but how quiet it was! When we finally got to the womans house at the edge of the city, she warmly invited us in.

    Her apartment was tiny and sparsely furnished. The furniture also looked tired and worn out. She was living in abject poverty. She showed us to our bedroom and we placed our things in there.
    I soon realised that this was the only bedroom in the house and when she showed us the kitchen, there was a tiny cot in the corner of that tiny kitchen. That tiny cot was to be her bed whilst we stayed there.
    I was resolved not to take her bedroom from her and I signalled to her that we would sleep in the kitchen on the floor (we were equipped for that) but she was having none of it. We both felt terribly guilty about sleeping in her bedroom but what to do? She needed the money...

    When my friend and I went out the next day on a food expedition, we were struck by the odd juxtaposition of the Old Town Prague in all its ancient beauty and the newer communist-built blocks of buildings alongside.

    The Old Town buildings had been spared of any war time bombings. They were beautifully handcrafted, slightly worse for wear, but solidly built. The newer buildings on the outside perimeter of the Old Town were a sharp contrast; ugly, grey and uniform. There were rows upon rows of the same buildings stretching as far as the eyes could see.

    We entered a few stores looking for food. I was surprised to see how little was available in the way of fresh produce. Not much in there for a vegetarian! There were cabbages and potatoes and that was it.

    There was not a supermarket in sight. Instead, you would walk into a store where rows of cans of food were displayed in a long glass cabinet behind the serving counter and you had to line up and point to what cans you wanted. It all felt completely surreal. The walls and floors were void of any kind of decorations and the atmosphere was very depressing.
    Miserable but equal...

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Quote Posted by Justjane (here)
    Dictators have used all kinds of political models to further their owns ends. Look at the Middle East and Africa. Communism is but one.[COLOR="red"]
    How does one go about creating a communist society that doesn't become a dictatorship?
    I'm going to offer a snippet from another place that I posted in with my thoughts.

    What I said was...if we cannot agree upon something, why do we not just set all that aside and work on something that we can agree upon? I don't want to do your jigsaw puzzles for you but I do want to ask this question of everyone reading this.

    Why do we get bogged down in semantics/systems/ideas such as communism or capitalism when the universe is constantly evolving, the past no longer exists and the future is one of possibilities?

    Why not create a new model and a system outside anything that has been discussed before? Why not call it a new name? Could we look at having a new new world? Why not create a new model and a system, and a way of being that honours all beings and co-create a world that we all want to see?

    Everyone here agrees that we don't like the way that the world is currently heading and that there are things that we do want for ourselves and each other which still can be discussed.
    Truly, if we want heartfelt answers to the biggest issues of our lifetime, it is time to get creative.


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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Jane, i’m just going to ignore your abrasive insults, and address your naive question...
    How does one go about creating a communist society that doesnt become a dictatorship?

    You can’t because human nature has perpetually shown that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    Your very dismissive of others presence in the forum has already shown this to be the case with your insistence of trying to persuade others that communism is the way. I believe there are others who would be less patient with this rhetoric. I would not want people like you to lead any movement, let alone communism of all things.

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Quote Posted by Constance (here)
    Why not create a new model and a system outside anything that has been discussed before?
    Exactly. Why would communism suddenly work now when it never has before?

    Click image for larger version

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    Benjamin Franklin also spoke wisely when he said:

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    Quote Posted by Constance (here)
    Why not call it a new name?
    As long as it doesn't have an 'ism'. How about 'natural-living'? I think we could come up with an infinite number of ideas for what that would entail. Its simplest definition for me would be a return to living in harmony with nature, in harmony with ourselves, and in harmony with spirit.
    "When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace."
    ~ Jimi Hendrix

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Why can't work be play? And why can there be no work as such? Just endless play and endless joy. Why can't we just create for the sake of creation itself? Why can't we celebrate every day the great gift of life and revel in our natural state as experiencers of bliss?

    'Ism's restrict the scope of life lived.

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    One of the best 3mins of your time, you will ever hear in your lifetime...

    Last edited by spade; 13th July 2020 at 17:14.

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Just by the speed of Mr. Peterson's words it is evident that this is not coming from his processing centers but from his personal bias and prejudice. It may be that he has said these words, and long ago cogitated their value, so many times that he can now merely express these thoughts by rote. I don't know.

    Essentially, to be fair, once all the higher level convolutions are removed:

    communism = community

    And that equates to the very opposite of globalism. As soon as centralization of that community-based philosophy is enacted it is no longer communism but totalitarianism.

    So, in fact, communism, as it is purely defined, has never been tried before and so has no historical precedent.
    JustJane, if I remember correctly, also made this point by claiming that in order for communism to work the whole word has to embrace it. (that is why it goes hand in hand with Islam, the so-called universal religion, and why it is so heavily guarded against in the west)
    Last edited by Ernie Nemeth; 13th July 2020 at 17:38.

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    communist china at work...


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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)

    communism = community
    communism ≠ community

    communism = forced values upon individual rights on a nationwide scale, as dictated by dictators, of which individuals cannot opt out from. If they do, it would be death or imprisonment.

    community = shared values of a group of individuals often appointing leaders to lead the group, and of which individuals are free to opt out from at any given moment.

    See the difference? Both have some form of central power.

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Their roots are the same for a reason.

    Just because a certain group of intelligentsia decided to commandeer the definition does not make it so. The moderated definitions do not make them the de facto meaning of the word which merely uses the tools of grammar and language to denote an institution, the institution of communism, which so far has not succeeded in its implementation.

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    Just by the speed of Mr. Peterson's words it is evident that this is not coming from his processing centers but from his personal bias and prejudice. It may be that he has said these words, and long ago cogitated their value, so many times that he can now merely express these thoughts by rote. I don't know.
    Hey Ernie. If we know anything of Jordan Peterson, we know he processes at a speed well beyond the statistical norm. Basically, he knows this material. He knows it inside out and upside down, it's been his field of study and analysis for more than 30 years.

    Here's a more measured response.



    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    So, in fact, communism, as it is purely defined, has never been tried before and so has no historical precedent.
    That's a bit like saying the tenets of Christianity, or Islam, or Judaism, as they are purely defined in scripture, have never been tried before, and so "true Religion" has no historical precedent.

    We have all the historical precedent we will ever need for the abject failures of communism (and religion for that matter). What communism means in theory, how it looks on paper (same for religion), is completely irrelevant where human power structures are concerned and are involved. Mankind, in its current development, still exists in a paradigm of conflict and polarity. An equity system will therefore always, always, piss-off a percentage of those who want more than the rest. In order to keep equity 'equitable' and maintain control of it, you have to end up enforcing it. And bang, there goes any semblance of liberty, and the spiral begins. We've seen it once, twice, thrice, fifteen times, resulting in millions of deaths and absolute devastation.

    I'm all for community-ism if that's to be its name. I called for something like that myself in an earlier post. It may indeed be the only solution - one day. It would have to be cooperative, with people living in individual autonomous pockets of community, all working as one but also together. Unfortunately, because pride, greed, sloth et al, still exist in the human psyche, it won't and cannot work today. Owing to moral and spiritual impotence in the human character, there will always be a call for "rules" and "regulations" and oversight - a big, fat bureaucracy in other words, to keep everything afloat and everyone inline. And that's where totalitarianism emerges. It is 100% unavoidable.

    Basically, humanity is still too primitive to live without such measures and controls. It hasn't yet advanced to a degree where individuals can responsibly self-regulate, which is absolutely a prerequisite for an equity system (without centralization), to ever function.

    You cannot inflict a doctrine of equality on a population that doesn't even recognise that same spark of divinity in each other, and expect it to stick organically. You can only make it stick with force, and to exert force you need to establish a power base. Which results in just another pyramid of institutionalized hierarchical corruption, same as every other system.

    One of the key problems with communism (as noted throughout the 20th century) was that it lacked essential legal and statutory controls to ensure accountability. Democracy comes with these written on the tin in big bold letters - yes, how these 'work' is often laughable, but at least such crucial guarantees are allowed to exist.
    "When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace."
    ~ Jimi Hendrix

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    communism is dangerous because it attempts to offer a solution to a problem that other isms do not try to.

    We are facing rampant corruption , oligarchy and concentration of wealth and power at the very top. The elite are in a powerful position to enable them to continue to augment their privileged position via:

    - insider financial dealings
    - privileged education
    - connections , cooperation amongst themselves etc
    - ownership conferring the ability to extract profits while keeping the masses in poverty
    - the power to manipulate politics and government to their own advantage
    -if you have wealth its much easier to make more than start from the bottom
    - etc.

    non communists lament this but do not offer a solution. Libertarians seem to be oblivious. It seems for conservatives that the only way that a society can function is if a small elite group control most of the assets, imagining something better is, to them, delusion.

    If you see this, you might start wondering if these powers are so entrenched, corrupt and socially damaging, that the only remedy is to attack them, take the assets, and change the law to legitimise that revolution. That way leads to death and suffering, but that way , or that analysis is fed and strengthened by the elite's bad behaviour.

    We CAN formulate something better, but one can forgive the people who conclude that there is only one, radical, solution.
    Last edited by Baby Steps; 13th July 2020 at 22:27.
    we have subcontracted the business of healing people to Companies who profit from sickness.

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Oh come on. There's only one solution for crookery, and that's honesty, not an ism.
    ..................................................my first language is TYPO..............................................

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Quote Posted by norman (here)
    Oh come on. There's only one solution for crookery, and that's honesty, not an ism.
    Anti-ism-ism. Or Dis-anti-ism-ism

    edit: (loved what you said btw)

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Quote Posted by Star Mariner (here)
    Quote Posted by Constance (here)
    Why not create a new model and a system outside anything that has been discussed before?
    Exactly. Why would communism suddenly work now when it never has before?

    Attachment 43885

    Benjamin Franklin also spoke wisely when he said:

    Attachment 43886

    Quote Posted by Constance (here)
    Why not call it a new name?
    As long as it doesn't have an 'ism'. How about 'natural-living'? I think we could come up with an infinite number of ideas for what that would entail. Its simplest definition for me would be a return to living in harmony with nature, in harmony with ourselves, and in harmony with spirit.
    Your speaking to my heart here Star. I couldn't have said it better myself. I wholeheartedly agree with you on all those points. Keep up the great work! "Natural living". Magnificent! I'm sending you big air hugs. I think we could come up with an infinite number of ideas as to what that would look like as well if we put our heads together. Bravo Star, Bravo

    ¤=[Post Update]=¤

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    Why can't work be play? And why can there be no work as such? Just endless play and endless joy. Why can't we just create for the sake of creation itself? Why can't we celebrate every day the great gift of life and revel in our natural state as experiencers of bliss?

    'Ism's restrict the scope of life lived.
    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Keep up the great work Ernie

    Have you seen that doco called, never leave the playground? I'm going to see if I can find it and share it on my empowerment portal thread. Big air hugs to you Ernie

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Quote Posted by Ernie Nemeth (here)
    communism = community
    Is "community organizer" code for a communist? seems to have been in Obama's case

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Quote Posted by Baby Steps (here)
    We CAN formulate something better, but one can forgive the people who conclude that there is only one, radical, solution.
    Maybe the first step is recognizing that Communism and Fascism are just the PR for Totalitarianism. Sell Communism to the powerless and Fascism to the powerful. Two sides of the same road.

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    If I sound like I support communism or any other 'ism', that is false.

    What I do see and hear is that there is most certainly a false narrative involving the notion of communism, while the word communism, like so many other words and phrases, have been subverted. The most difficult manipulation to be aware of is the one that sneaks in below awareness, through the emotional pathway and proves itself with its supposed obviousness but is little more than rhetoric so as not to wake the autonomous strawman of ignorance we have all to one extent or another become.

    And it does not even matter since all these 'ism's were invented with the same purpose in mind, to confuse by cognitive dissonance and thereby control through the legal assumption of the masses in the right of 'authority' to rule.

    There is only one way forward, and that is to insist on our own right to sovereignty. We must refuse control and question anyone's right to rule.

    There is only one way forward and that is to stop the division in all its forms. Words can unify, and words can divide. It is all in how they are used. If words are used in a free and open society, words edify and lead to positive change. If words are used by authority against those they oppress (because authority always oppresses in order to remain in authority), words become weapons to divide and conquer. Change, although still inevitable, then leads only to more oppression.

    There is only one way forward and that is together.

    One world.

    One Love.

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Here is a link to a lecture given by G. Edward Griffin on April 3, 1969. There is for my money no better lecturer alive today than he was, and is--even at his advanced age.

    The title is More Deadly Than War. He discusses the revolutionary process of Socialism on its march to Communism. What he described in 1969 and prior thereto is even more pertinent and compelling today. The totalitarian playbook of the communists has not changed. Time has passed, new actors have stepped on the stage, but the program has not changed. And that is bad for freedom-loving people everywhere.

    After providing many historically accurate and convincing details, the ultimate point he makes in 1969 is that the enemies are within the gates and time is short. In 1969 he says that "We are past the point of painless solutions." 51 years have passed since he gave this lecture. How painful will it be now? And for who?

    He describes the issues and suggests solutions.

    One hour and 14 minutes. Please do watch and understand.

    https://dogsareloyal1s.com/video/Mor...y_Than_War.mp4

    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 15th July 2020 at 18:56. Reason: embedded the video

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Quote Posted by Satori (here)
    Here is a link to a lecture given by G. Edward Griffin on April 3, 1969. There is for my money no better lecturer alive today than he was, and is--even at his advanced age.

    The title is More Deadly Than War. He discusses the revolutionary process of Socialism on its march to Communism. What he described in 1969 and prior thereto is even more pertinent and compelling today. The totalitarian playbook of the communists has not changed. Time has passed, new actors have stepped on the stage, but the program has not changed. And that is bad for freedom-loving people everywhere.

    After providing many historically accurate and convincing details, the ultimate point he makes in 1969 is that the enemies are within the gates and time is short. In 1969 he says that "We are past the point of painless solutions." 51 years have passed since he gave this lecture. How painful will it be now? And for who?

    He describes the issues and suggests solutions.

    One hour and 14 minutes. Please do watch and understand.

    https://dogsareloyal1s.com/video/Mor...y_Than_War.mp4

    Wow, this talk could have been written yesterday, especially the race issues he talks about. Only watched about 15 minutes will watch the rest this evening.

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    Default Re: Communism (and China)

    Quote Posted by Satori (here)
    Here is a link to a lecture given by G. Edward Griffin on April 3, 1969. There is for my money no better lecturer alive today than he was, and is--even at his advanced age.

    The title is More Deadly Than War. He discusses the revolutionary process of Socialism on its march to Communism. What he described in 1969 and prior thereto is even more pertinent and compelling today. The totalitarian playbook of the communists has not changed. Time has passed, new actors have stepped on the stage, but the program has not changed. And that is bad for freedom-loving people everywhere.

    After providing many historically accurate and convincing details, the ultimate point he makes in 1969 is that the enemies are within the gates and time is short. In 1969 he says that "We are past the point of painless solutions." 51 years have passed since he gave this lecture. How painful will it be now? And for who?

    He describes the issues and suggests solutions.

    One hour and 14 minutes. Please do watch and understand.

    https://dogsareloyal1s.com/video/Mor...y_Than_War.mp4


    You were right, that video should be watched by everyone. It is very informative.

    But even Mr Marshall makes clear that the systems in place we call communist are not that at all, since communism cannot be implemented unless the whole world is involved and all its people.

    He makes clear that these states are socialist, not communist.

    Still, the video is a very important watch, especially for Americans.

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