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Thread: Washington Redskins to Change Name

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    Avalon Member Star Mariner's Avatar
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    Default Washington Redskins to Change Name

    So the Washington Redskins are to retire their name and logo, which they've had since 1933. So what to think of this? Is it the long overdue correction of an offensive name, or just the latest noise of today's cancel-culture?

    The Redskins franchise has a long history celebrating, they claim, the Native American motif. The controversy isn't new however, the clamour to change it, from many sectors including the Native American community, has been going on since the 90s.



    And fair enough. There's plenty of evidence to suggest the name IS upsetting to Native Americans. I guess where I'm having pause for thought is: why? Is it because the name is overtly offensive, or have they been convinced that it is offensive? 'Redskin' wasn't originally a pejorative term, even to them, it's only in more recent times that it gathered its negative slant.

    What of other teams in a similar position? Kansas City Chiefs? Atlanta Braves? Cleveland Indians? They have a Native American theme too. But...they are different in my book. Redskins is considered derogatory, I think, solely because it references skin colour.

    But all are meant to be warrior emblems. Sports teams 'borrow' them all the time to big themselves up, to convey the idea of power and strength. Minnesota Vikings is the same.

    Perhaps its hard for some Redskins fans to see that negative slant in their name, as it's 'institutionalized' in their minds by 90 years of football history. Yet I very much doubt any one of them would ever call a Native American 'a redskin' to his or her face!

    I definitely see that argument, but I still think there's more going on here, something deeper than 'the name is racist'. If it's racist now, it was racist last year, and 20 years ago, and 50. I'm not alarmed that the Redskins have decided to change it - I'm in favour of that. But I am somewhat alarmed by the brute force nature that persuaded it. It doesn't stem from a shift in social conscience (the fans didn't call for this, and certainly the owners didn't), it comes purely from the politically correct cancel-culture lobby, and that is alarming. Who is deciding who or what they target? Are they motivated more by goodness, or more by hate? Where does this 'power' begin or end?

    I would be curious to know what would happen if owner Daniel Snyder decided to rename the franchise "Washington Natives". With the Native American motif retained, but any mention of skin colour banished, would it then not be racist anymore? Or would just a new twitter storm begin?

    ----

    Hopefully no one will be triggered by this post and fly off the handle. This is not about racism per se, more about what's in a name. I'm simply airing thoughts and asking questions.
    "When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace."
    ~ Jimi Hendrix

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    Default Re: Washington Redskins to Change Name

    Not sure if I am allowed to comment as not native nor fan of (any) team... but my 5 cents are that if it offends, why not to change? Its just a name for team.

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    Default Re: Washington Redskins to Change Name

    Quote Posted by Arak (here)
    Not sure if I am allowed to comment as not native nor fan of (any) team... but my 5 cents are that if it offends, why not to change? Its just a name for team.
    I can understand all sides here. I think the real issue may be that almost anything can be claimed to be "offensive".

    It depends who's complaining, how loudly, and why.

    So that means that (in this case) a precedent is set for others to complain about practically anything at all. The following isn't quite the same thing, of course, but it could one day be stretched to be.

    Seattle, the city, is named after Chief Seattle. Maybe some extremists might complain about that, feeling it's dishonoring his name, rather than honoring it.

    Does that mean the city's name has to be changed?

    And here's a list of US city names containing (or implying) "whiteness": Should all these be changed, too, to make sure no-one's offended? (Note: there are just as many city names containing the term "black", and also "brown".)
    • Alabaster, Alabama
    • White Bear Lake, Minnesota
    • White Bird, Idaho
    • White Bluff town, Tennessee
    • White City, Kansas
    • White City, Oregon
    • White Cloud, Kansas
    • White Cloud, Michigan
    • White Earth, North Dakota
    • White Hall, Arkansas
    • White Hall, Illinois
    • White House, Tennessee
    • White Lake, South Dakota
    • White Mountain, Alaska
    • White Oak, Texas
    • White Plains, Georgia
    • White Plains, Kentucky
    • White Plains, New York
    • White River, South Dakota
    • White Salmon, Washington
    • White Settlement, Texas
    • White Sulphur Springs, Montana
    • White Sulphur Springs, West Virginia
    • White, Georgia
    • Whitefish, Montana
    • Whitefish Bay, Wisconsin
    • Whitehall, Michigan
    • Whitehall, Montana
    • Whitehall, Ohio
    • Whitehall, Wisconsin
    • Whitehouse, New Jersey
    • Whitehouse, Ohio
    • Whitehouse, Texas
    • Whites Horse Beach, Massachusetts
    • Whitesboro, Alabama
    • Whitesboro, New Jersey
    • Whitesboro, New York
    • Whitesboro, Texas
    • Whitesburg, Georgia
    • Whitesburg, Kentucky
    • Whitesburg, Tennessee
    • Whitesville, Kentucky
    • Whitesville, Louisiana
    • Whiteville, North Carolina
    • Whitesville, Virginia
    • Whitewater, Kansas
    • Whitewater, Wisconsin
    • Whitewood, South Dakota
    Maybe the White House should have its name changed, as well?

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    Default Re: Washington Redskins to Change Name

    It seems the term "redskin", has a darker history than most other Indian named sports teams and cities. Of course we would have to ask those pushing so long for this to happen their reasoning, but many people think this newspaper ad from 1863 offering $200 for every Indian scalp is the origin of the term:

    Quote The State reward for dead Indians has been increased to $200 for every red-skin sent to Purgatory. This sum is more than the dead bodies of all the Indians east of the Red River are worth.
    https://www.esquire.com/news-politic...n-name-update/

    If this is indeed the case then it's a big difference from naming a city after Chief Seattle, for instance.

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    Default Re: Washington Redskins to Change Name

    About half the States get their names from Native America as well as many cities all over, maybe yours

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._United_States

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    Default Re: Washington Redskins to Change Name

    I am not for sanitizing all the political incorrectness out of our culture, but yeah, I am glad the "Redskin" name is gone. I really would not be too happy if my race, my heritage, my bloodline, was made into the mascot for some large corporate entity that had nothing to do with it, especially but such a pejorative term. Mascots are often animals or some class of historical or fictional people (e.g. 49ers, Saints, Buccaneers). "Red Skins" is the only name to a real class of living breathing people, Native Americans, who would not want to be known by that name.

    Bill, that long list of cities you city, from Alabaster to Whitewood, have nothing to do with "White" ethnicty or skin color and let me guess that all of them were named by Caucasians. There's nothing to that that diminishes the dignity of us Caucasians there, nor do African Americans have any problem with "Blacksburg, Virginia." The history of the word "Redskin", however, is a lot like the history of the N-word.

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    Default Re: Washington Redskins to Change Name

    Many Many names here in Michigan are named after tribal chiefs , Yeah lets erase everything then the academic crowd teaching in school to kids can promote only their agenda as there will be nothing left as a reminder of where we have been or who was here. Right wrong or indifferent.

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    Default Re: Washington Redskins to Change Name

    Quote Posted by Bluegreen (here)
    About half the States get their names from Native America as well as many cities all over, maybe yours
    Quite true. We named places to honor the people whose land we stole . However "Redskin" was never a Native American word. It was a word used to put down those people.

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    Default Re: Washington Redskins to Change Name

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Maybe the White House should have its name changed, as well?
    I reckon that would be game over...

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    Default Re: Washington Redskins to Change Name

    Quote Posted by Kryztian (here)
    Bill, that long list of cities you city, from Alabaster to Whitewood, have nothing to do with "White" ethnicty or skin color and let me guess that all of them were named by Caucasians.
    Yes, of course. But that might not stop some extremists from wanting to eradicate any "white" names from anywhere at all. Many of them seem to know or care little about actual history.

    And I completely understand about the history of the term "Redskins". But we're on a slippery slope here, that might look a little like this:



    There's an African country called Niger (as well as Nigeria, much better known). They're both named after the Niger River.

    Many might assume that means "black" (as in negro), but it seems the origins of the word are different. (Not that many would care!)

    My question really was: where does this stop?
    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 14th July 2020 at 22:19.

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    Default Re: Washington Redskins to Change Name

    Historically, Spain is one of the most genocidal nations on Spaceship Earth, yet many cities are named after historical Spanish figures. The city where I live is named after the Spanish Duke of Alburquerque. (As in Alburquerque Spain.) The first r in the word was dropped long ago. (Spell check was not happy with me trying to spell the city with the extra r.)

    The atrocities committed in the name of the Spanish crown in New Mexico against the natives here is well documented. But, no one is calling for tearing down Spanish monuments in New Mexico or for Albuquerque to change its name. At least, not yet.

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    Default Re: Washington Redskins to Change Name

    There is a reason that there is a logical fallacy called "slippery slope".

    We have sports teams named after groups of people ( Cowboys and Fighting Irish come to mind) but those are also generally considered if not venerable, at least acceptable by those to whom it's referring.

    The Native Americans are historically the most oppressed peoples in America, so I think it's about time we started to acknowledge the damage done to them, and renaming a sports team is barely a start, but at least it's something.

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    Default Re: Washington Redskins to Change Name

    Personally, I believe the only opinions on this subject that are relevant are those offered by Native Americans.

    Once their is an established consensus amongst the Native American nations on this topic - it should be followed.

    Just to be clear - I do hope we all see this as another strategic step in moving along an elitist culture altering agenda. Remember, the only reason Mr. Snyder has agreed to the name change this time is loss of merchandising revenue from Amazon/Walmart who refused to carry any products with the Redskins logo.


    https://www.foxnews.com/sports/navaj...team-name-logo.

    I would like to share my experience on this issue which runs counter to the above Navajo leaders statements:

    For the past 20 years I have worked as a contractor in Central/ Northwest Arizona which is home to Hopi, Navajo, and Apache nations. During that time I have had the distinct pleasure of establishing relationships with many Native Americans.

    6 or 7 years ago the MSM was promoting this same issue and I did an informal survey of maybe 30-40 Navajo/Hopi/Apache patients/co-workers - the overwhelming response I received was one of absolute apathy/disinterest - they simply could care less.

    Interestingly, roughly 25% of the males were interested in the topic and were adamently against the name changes - stating that the use of the names Redskins/Braves/Chiefs was perceived as honoring their ancestors by perpetually keeping their names culturally relevant and alive.




    Blessings Luke
    Last edited by Luke Holiday; 19th July 2020 at 09:15.

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    Default Re: Washington Redskins to Change Name

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Quote Posted by Arak (here)
    Not sure if I am allowed to comment as not native nor fan of (any) team... but my 5 cents are that if it offends, why not to change? Its just a name for team.
    I can understand all sides here. I think the real issue may be that almost anything can be claimed to be "offensive".

    It depends who's complaining, how loudly, and why.

    So that means that (in this case) a precedent is set for others to complain about practically anything at all. The following isn't quite the same thing, of course, but it could one day be stretched to be.

    ...
    Maybe the White House should have its name changed, as well?
    Yes, I understand this too. But there are descriptive names and then there are offensive names. Even for me Redskins sounds very racistic, a bit the same as the n word that I think no sane person suggests to be used these days. I also do think that our language guides our thoughts - a bit by bit - and well... do the math.

    Anyways, there are a lot of things to fix what people have done in history. Especially in USA, but also here in Europe yes. The work to be done should not prevent doing the right things now and in the future.

    Luckily I am not the one to draw lines what is right or wrong - as that is very hard and extreamly subjective.

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    Default Re: Washington Redskins to Change Name

    Then there is the defending champs Kansas City Chiefs. Their fans celebrate touchdowns with the "Tomahawk Chop".




    Kansa


    The Miami Dolphins



    Miami


    The Minnesota Vikings



    Dakota


    One of the oldest teams in the league (1898), the Arizona Cardinals




    Tohono O'odham
    Last edited by Bluegreen; 15th July 2020 at 23:57.

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    Default Re: Washington Redskins to Change Name

    Which brings us to the Tennessee Titans. Ironically enough, they started life as the Houston Oilers, named for Sam Houston, who supervised the removal of the Cherokee people from their native land.




    Tan'sei was the name of a Cherokee village.

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    Default Re: Washington Redskins to Change Name

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    And I completely understand about the history of the term "Redskins". But we're on a slippery slope here, that might look a little like this:

    The "slippery slope" theory has been used to argue against a lot of good ideas. "If you are going to do x, then that would be the prelude to doing x2, and then x3, and then we will have x to the nth degree and it will be anarchy!!!" (or totalitarianism.) I am not sure that where, historically, this theory has ever proven true. In fact it works the other way - if a real problem isn't addressed, it only gets worse, and the reaction against it only gets more extreme.

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    Default Re: Washington Redskins to Change Name

    Quote Posted by Bluegreen (here)
    Which brings us to the Tennessee Titans. Ironically enough, they started life as the Houston Oilers, named for Sam Houston, who supervised the removal of the Cherokee people from their native land.
    Sam Houston? Are you sure you dont mean Andrew Jackson?

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    Default Re: Washington Redskins to Change Name

    Then there was one famous employer of Indians


    . .


    And another famous Indian removal supervisor


    . .

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    Default Re: Washington Redskins to Change Name

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    My question really was: where does this stop?
    I'm not sure it does stop. There's a big problem here. And it isn't as straightforward as obvious racism or obvious bigotry. Something clearly offensive or upsetting I understand, we can all recognise that and get behind it -- the problem lies with those who claim offence on someone else's behalf.

    That's not generally a problem in theory. We all have to look out for each other. But when it's mob activism that's appointed itself judge, jury, and executioner, or the virtue signalling twitterati crowd only interested in gaining retweets or whatever it is, then it becomes a problem. Right now that problem is a driverless 18 wheeler tearing through the public consciousness. And everything and anything is in the firing line: words, names, places, products, even a simple dirty joke.

    Again I'm not saying Redskins isn't racist, I support the name change. But how many campaigned for it for the right reasons? And if those reasons are right today, now, for tens of thousands of outraged people, where were they yesterday and for the last 87 years?
    "When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace."
    ~ Jimi Hendrix

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