On Waking Up

[Peter UK]

It begs an important and interesting question.

Can anyone, ever, really wake another person up?

I think that's probably a misunderstanding of the effect we have in other people's lives, at best we act as catalysts in each other's journey.

A persons waking is entirely of their own timing and is idiosyncratic in nature, the means could be anything, a crisis, a series of synchronicities, a dream, a conversation, a book, a moment of high strangeness etc. We can inspire or point to where someone might find the resources or answers they're looking for but if we press to hard in that direction we are against the current of their own understanding and fighting against the stream, hindering rather than assisting.

A fine tuned sensitivity to another's needs is what's required not what we think waking up is all about and there is a subtle balance to be struck. Eagerness here is likely to be both over emphatic and counterproductive.

I don't think the idea here is not to pass that book at an opportune moment or assist in some other manner but rather to realise that where no such opportunity exists and the doors being closed, not to dissipate energy and move on.

Someone may even profusely feel indebted to you for, as they see it waking them up and that's fine and we can be accepting of that but I would assume in some way they would have had to be ready for that moment and acquiescent of it.

If you can remember a time when you acted as a catalyst in someone's awakening then it might be apropos to realise that the moment was of their choosing and that it really was a great service you participated in.

Let's be grateful for all those who were instrumental in our own awakening.

It might be of interest to hear of any stories where the above was a factor in the lives of anyone and the awakening of another or another as a catalyst in your own awakening.

[O Donna]

Posted by Peter UK (here)

Can anyone, ever, really wake another person up?

What if that that is not awake was never designed so and what is awake has never been asleep? (Granted, appearances would suggest otherwise)

[AutumnW]

I figure it is really presumptuous to think you are one of the awake who has to wake other people up.

[Tyy1907]

I figure the average Joe is on the sidelines watching the game or not even at the game cause they dont know there's a contest even going on.

Avalon members can see through the fog better than most.

[Savannah]

I or my higher self or all that is "woke me up" when I died at age 8. Later at around 30 I started going out of body so that lead me to find alternative information from books (no internet back then). The information didn't "wake" me up, my spirit did and I just followed the path.

[Justjane]

Awakening is a spiritual process which brings profound inner change where our entire being and consciousness ascends to a higher level of energy and awareness. It’s when we realise that we are not our thoughts, beliefs, actions, values and let go of our programming and attachments to recognise that we are spirit, we are energy. The most important aspect of the awakening process is ego death, the experience of detachment from the mental (ego) model of self. The ego self is everything we call “I” and is the filter through which we view the world prior to rebirth or awakening. Awakening is moving from this ego self to our spirit self.

It is an intensely personal process which can be precipitated by many things as has been mentioned above but it is always at the invitation of the universe. Other people may ignite or support this process but essentially it is us doing the work in relation to the universe/God/source.

From what I can tell, both those in the truther community and the loony left have commandeered the term awakening to represent waking up to their view of the world. This isn’t awakening, this is performance where you are just swapping out one set of values, ideas and beliefs for another.

Awakening means working with our spiritual energy (chi, prana, insert personally appropriate moniker here) to achieve different states of being. In today’s society, however, spirituality has come to mean many different things as everyone from Eckhart Tolle to my great Aunt Myrna has an opinion about how exactly it should be. Perhaps it might be easier to provide a comparative example from the physical plane:
-Real physicality would be going to the gym and working out
-Aspirational physicality would be not going to the gym but thinking of ourselves as ‘fit’
-Conceptual physicality would be reading lots of books about the gym and understanding the ideas that sit behind being fit, and
-Pop physicality would be not going to the gym because we believe we can get fit by viualising it.

Any support we give others should be practical, involving real, tangible solutions and that means energy work.

It’s only then that they can find their own way and see the truth of the universe itself.

[Gracy]

Posted by AutumnW (here)
I figure it is really presumptuous to think you are one of the awake who has to wake other people up.

Yeah, well there are certainly varying degrees of being "awake". Like I thought I was fully awake and aware just from finally noticing there were some big big problems with the 9/11 thing, and subsequent events like the Patriot Act, Iraq War, etc. (This was 2009) But geez there's so much more to it, like psychological warfare, MKULTRA, noticing more and more how history repeats itself, on and on it goes.

I haven't considered myself awakened for some time now, only getting further and further down that road over time in fits and starts.

Back to the subject Peter brought up. It would have been very counter productive for anyone back in the days when I thought mainstream news was really out to inform me, to try and convince me otherwise. I heard many of the conspiracy theories, and dismissed them all out of hand, especially 9/11 as I was a big Bush/Cheney fan at the time. I was all in for the invasion of Iraq, all of that at the time. The whole "USA! USA! USA!" thing.

But still they bounced around in my head, it was bothering me, until one night I couldn't sleep thinking about it, got up in the wee hours of the morning, and set out to prove to myself once and for all that the 9/11 inside job thing a bunch of crazy bulls**t.

An hour later I was sick to my stomach with my jaw hanging open over my morning coffee, I was like "oh my F**king god..." And my life went into a tailspin, took me some time to reground and find my equilibrium, thankfully I was deeply rooted in Zen Buddhism and meditation at the time, or there would have been no anchor to reel me back in.

That very next day I wound up leaving Barnes n' Noble with two books that would get the ball really a rollin. "Tales From the Timeloop" by David Icke, and "Cosmic War" by Joseph Farrell.

Knowing first hand how deep the denial of such things run, and how utterly shocking the initial phase of an awakening can be, especially someone in their late 40's and set in their ways as I was, I'm hyper aware to never, ever, ever, push anything on anybody.

If something comes up in conversation I'll slip a subtle something something in there, and leave it at that. I know they heard me, it may rattle around in their brain like mine but then again it may not, the ball is in their court and they HAVE been exposed to something new.

Never push.

[Justjane]

Posted by Gracy May (here)

Posted by AutumnW (here)
I figure it is really presumptuous to think you are one of the awake who has to wake other people up.

Yeah, well there are certainly varying degrees of being "awake". Like I thought I was fully awake and aware just from finally noticing there were some big big problems with the 9/11 thing, and subsequent events like the Patriot Act, Iraq War, etc. (This was 2009) But geez there's so much more to it, like psychological warfare, MKULTRA, noticing more and more how history repeats itself, on and on it goes.

I haven't considered myself awakened for some time now, only getting further and further down that road over time in fits and starts.

Back to the subject Peter brought up. It would have been very counter productive for anyone back in the days when I thought mainstream news was really out to inform me, to try and convince me otherwise. I heard many of the conspiracy theories, and dismissed them all out of hand, especially 9/11 as I was a big Bush/Cheney fan at the time. I was all in for the invasion of Iraq, all of that at the time. The whole "USA! USA! USA!" thing.

But still they bounced around in my head, it was bothering me, until one night I couldn't sleep thinking about it, got up in the wee hours of the morning, and set out to prove to myself once and for all that the 9/11 inside job thing a bunch of crazy bulls**t.

An hour later I was sick to my stomach with my jaw hanging open over my morning coffee, I was like "oh my F**king god..." And my life went into a tailspin, took me some time to reground and find my equilibrium, thankfully I was deeply rooted in Zen Buddhism and meditation at the time, or there would have been no anchor to reel me back in.

That very next day I wound up leaving Barnes n' Noble with two books that would get the ball really a rollin. "Tales From the Timeloop" by David Icke, and "Cosmic War" by Joseph Farrell.

Knowing first hand how deep the denial of such things run, and how utterly shocking the initial phase of an awakening can be, especially someone in their late 40's and set in their ways as I was, I'm hyper aware to never, ever, ever, push anything on anybody.

If something comes up in conversation I'll slip a subtle something something in there, and leave it at that. I know they heard me, it may rattle around in their brain like mine but then again it may not, the ball is in their court and they HAVE been exposed to something new.

Never push.

A lot of people go through this phase in their journey through the awakening process, my concern is that most people get to this place where the wool is pulled back from their eyes and they start to see behind the curtain, they can see the lies and manipulation and machinations behind the scenes. Then they diverge into what is fast becoming two camps, the ‘truthers’ and the ‘woke’, and then they get stuck. This isn’t an accident. The reality is both camps started in the same place, they saw the same the things, ultimately they want the same thing, but they’re divided along the way, herded into their groups where they come to epitomise the values, ideas and opinions of their respective groups.

Awakening doesn’t stop here. As I said above, it’s a spiritual process and the ‘madness’ ass I’ve come to call it is one stage in a loooong process in the ultimate realisation of self, the universe and the actual workings of universal law. It’s where we come to understand who we are, why we are here, what’s going on and why on an intuitive level, not an intellectual one.

It’s where we find TRUTH, actual truth, not our version of it.

There’s enormous emphasis at the moment from both camps about diversity and personalisation (which is playing out differently for both sides granted and I won’t get into it here) but it’s another farce. We are all precious little snowflakes no doubt, but fundamental agreement on certain things is necessary for the smooth operations of our planet and the universe itself. Coming into alignment with the truth of the universe is essential for the betterment of ourselves and the planet overall. We can argue the merits of art, music, flavour, and any other personal preference you might have but we do really need to spend another three thousand years arguing for basic human rights, dignity and worth? Do we need to keep arguing about the ownership and distribution of resources? Do we really need to keep arguing about policy?

If humanity is to truly advance, we need to stop the squabbling and grow up. That’s what awakening is for. It’s not homogenisation, we will always be unique expressions of the universe, it’s so we stop wasting time on trivialities and ensure that everyone is recognised and valued for their unique contribution and can get to the actual fun stuff of living on this planet.

[norman]

Posted by Justjane (here)


Do we need to keep arguing about the ownership and distribution of resources? Do we really need to keep arguing about policy?

If humanity is to truly advance, we need to stop the squabbling and grow up. That’s what awakening is for. It’s not homogenisation, we will always be unique expressions of the universe, it’s so we stop wasting time on trivialities and ensure that everyone is recognised and valued for their unique contribution and can get to the actual fun stuff of living on this planet.

Anything that is dehumanising is a clue it's not the way to go.

We can stop the squabbling by banning it ( or one side of it ), or we can stop the squabbling by upgrading it to variance diversity and beauty. The first option is everyone else's business. The second option is no one else's business.

Odd how that works, isn't it. It leaves us with really only one worthwhile outwards expression of ourselves. Just be ourselves without the threat to anyone else's self being. If we can get that far, we'll soon get the hang of the rest.

[palehorse]

Nice thread thanks to bring this up.

My process of waking up is not being easy at all, I know it is hard to everyone that is really committed to it, in my case it start long ago, when I was a teenager I lost of my parents, and I had no option but wake the hell up of me as fast as I could, first time in life I was all alone.

I can tell you it was messy many times, most part of the time, got into troubles to not believe what the old folks were pushing into me (mostly society garbage), to get rid of all the wrong things I once learned (I grew up in a catholic school as a Christian) was not easy at all, then society in general, at some point I was begging to know people with real knowledge to learn from, that's when I found a School of the Fourth Way (George Ivanovich Gurdjieff teachings or just G teachings), and that was a real start point in my life, specially like a year or so going to the meetings, after all the struggles when I looked back and I saw a ghost (old me), that old life is gonna forever I was a new person, new thoughts, sooner after that I decided to travel around the world, even I was mentally prepared for the trip of my life, I gotta no money that time, I started to look for jobs online, it was hard to find anything, then I knew a Taiwanese person friend of a friend that were going to the same meetings with me, she had a company in Taipei, she told me she was looking for someone to work there for her mainly digitalizing, organizing office documents in their computers, it was the perfect timing and opportunity that just landed in my life, I took the job and went to Taiwan, the plan was to save up for a year and keep travelling, that time I was for the very first time really happy with myself.

In 1998 when I was living and working in Taipei, and just another day taking the MRT going to work, late in a hurry, in one station an old Chinese man step besides me and shout in English "you will never be awake unless you get rid of all your attachments".. that phrase imprinted in my brain like nothing before, I said excuse me, are you talking to me? No verbal answer back.. then He gave me that deep look in the eyes and I heard YES, clear and loud inside my brain, not a single word came out of his mouth, no lips moving. The Chinese man looks pretty much like a beggar, long hair, skinny body, maybe on his 70s or more, not sure. It was a hell of experience, never happen before or after that, really an unique thing that happen to me. Since then it was just another clue that I am in the process of awakening, and I am sure it is a long process and there is no such a thing as "I am awakened" or "I am the awakened one" or anything like that, in my point of view and from what I learnt it is a process that we human beings can perfect given certain time and constantly training, but seems to have no end to this process, in another thread I said I do not believe in soul or spirit or self and everything is in our brain, it seems like, it feels like the process is happening constantly without break in the brain only, at least for me.

In my life journey I had started learning from the Catholic studies, then went into Spiritism (based on Allan Kardec Doctrine), then into Gurdjieff teachings (also a little bit of Sufism), then into Theosophy, then Theravada Buddhism and a degree in computer science in between it all, today I like the Buddhism approach as a science of the mind not as a religion. I do not judge religion for what they are, they have good and bad properties, I am collecting pieces of the puzzle everywhere here and there, I believe one day I will have a better picture of life and evolution and knowing that is enough for me to keep the search to be awake for life, if we carry all the knowledge when we pass away is a big mystery for me though.

Answering the question: Can anyone, ever, really wake another person up?
Yes, if the person allow that, and be willing to break paradigms, but the tunnel of reality of each individual can play a very trick rule if not aware. I believe to have spent a few years in what some folks call chapel perilous where everything was so dead wrong a hard mental maze to escape, luckily I got friends to help me with that.

[Peter UK]

Posted by palehorse (here)

In 1998 when I was living and working in Taipei, and just another day taking the MRT going to work, late in a hurry, in one station an old Chinese man step besides me and shout in English "you will never be awake unless you get rid of all your attachments".. that phrase imprinted in my brain like nothing before, I said excuse me, are you talking to me? No verbal answer back.. then He gave me that deep look in the eyes and I heard YES, clear and loud inside my brain, not a single word came out of his mouth, no lips moving. The Chinese man looks pretty much like a beggar, long hair, skinny body, maybe on his 70s or more, not sure. It was a hell of experience, never happen before or after that, really an unique thing that happen to me.

Thanks, that's a really great story.

[Mike Gorman]

This is indeed a multifaceted, and perilous area, sometimes describing being 'awake' is merely agreeing with something, I think I have always been wary of officialdom, questioning and extremely curious, even as a young child.
I never liked school much, the uniformity of behaviour, the conforming, the ubiquity of the same opinions, it made me difficult to manage sometimes, I think I have always been 'awake' by nature. I come from a tough group of people, Irish and northern English working class intellectuals ( teachers and academics along with colliers and tradesmen) I have never accepted what I was told! I think we can have people like me who saw something like Project Camelot as being a case of 'Well it is about time, where have you been!' and we can have 'normal' people who discover reality is not quite like it is depicted on mainstream media, and it blows their minds. We have to be careful with how we respect people, and acknowledge their views also.

[betoobig]

I like it symple. the answer is No. The closest you can be is lead by example. Much love

[Constance]

It depends on the individual. If someone is ready, willing and able, capable and has the capacity and the wherewithal, then there can be an instant awakening to the nature of life.

[Valerie Villars]

The mustard seed of doubt one has regarding any aspect of this outwardly presented existence is what starts the slow roll toward waking up.

I think all of us here have a packet of seeds. Throw a handful out and see which find fertile ground.

[Harmony]

It seems likely that each person is continually waking up, but one might suddenly realise what it really means suddenly by some unforseen happenning.


For me I feel it was a process of seeing how everything is integrated in all directions and levels. Time line events, space from the smallest to infinite space, relationships, natural cycles like rain evaporation, clouds, heat, cold, movement, earth core, magma, earth cycles, sun cycles, universes, all frequencies and events and consequences. Relationships of people and all things. Past lives, ancestors, the future there is nothing that isn't a part of the whole. The One.

[shaberon]

I am not sure I understand what it is supposed to mean in English.

The related root word in Sanskrit is Budh, which has direct cognates in many languages and to Greek Noos. Which is why we accept the phrase Noumenal Path. The English equivalent appears to be Bid.

"I bid you good morning".

Since communication is a part of it, that would require another person's input.

The last thing I would suggest is anyone running around thinking of how much they are doing on their own.

When you feed a child, do you shower them with credit for having a digestive system? Doesn't it depend more on a chain of events which provided a form of energy for them?

We can only digest whatever is available.

Yes, you are the only one who can really control what is going on inside you--but, can another say or do something that is more powerful than what you are up to? They can!

If my ego poked up and said "I don't need you" I would go straight to hell. I, for one, am simply more interested in killing the ego than in hanging ribbons of distinction to it.

It has nothing to do with the fact that politicians lie, which is an ordinary mundane fact.

Budh is perhaps more closely related to:


"to revive the scent (of a perfume)"

"to cause (a flower) to expand, [Kāvya literature]"


So in Sanskrit it carries the simultaneous meaning of personal insight together with external communication, which, handled carefully, is a process like a Lotus rising from mud--except this one is capable of infinite progression.

[Sarah Rainsong]

Posted by Valerie Villars (here)
The mustard seed of doubt one has regarding any aspect of this outwardly presented existence is what starts the slow roll toward waking up.

I think all of us here have a packet of seeds. Throw a handful out and see which find fertile ground.

I think in terms of seeds as well. It's not my job to convince anyone of anything. No one could have ever "convinced" me into "waking up." But lots of people tossed me seeds, and eventually one or two of them took root. Now I toss seeds as well. The rest is up to the individual.

[EFO]

Posted by Sarah Rainsong (here)

Posted by Valerie Villars (here)
The mustard seed of doubt one has regarding any aspect of this outwardly presented existence is what starts the slow roll toward waking up.

I think all of us here have a packet of seeds. Throw a handful out and see which find fertile ground.

I think in terms of seeds as well. It's not my job to convince anyone of anything. No one could have ever "convinced" me into "waking up." But lots of people tossed me seeds, and eventually one or two of them took root. Now I toss seeds as well. The rest is up to the individual.

Some months ago,I was exchanging emails with a member of Avalon's Mods/Guides in which I tell him/her the same thing as discussed here by Valerie Villars and Sarah Rainsong about seeding and this procedure works in the same way Sarah describe it.

As per waking somebody up:I've spoken for about 2 and 1/2 years with an old friend of mine which I found him after 30 years and have one eye awaken and he tried to open the second one,but due to her wife prejudices he went back to sleep again and stop talking each other.

[Jayke]

Posted by Sarah Rainsong (here)

Posted by Valerie Villars (here)
The mustard seed of doubt one has regarding any aspect of this outwardly presented existence is what starts the slow roll toward waking up.

I think all of us here have a packet of seeds. Throw a handful out and see which find fertile ground.

I think in terms of seeds as well. It's not my job to convince anyone of anything. No one could have ever "convinced" me into "waking up." But lots of people tossed me seeds, and eventually one or two of them took root. Now I toss seeds as well. The rest is up to the individual.

I’ve been studying the concept of emotional armouring with Tom Meyers recently. Meyers was a student of Ida Rolf, who was one of Wilhelm Reichs top students. Reich first proposed the concept of armouring back in 1936.

• https://www.energeticsinstitute.com....ouring-theory/

He stated “Armoring is the condition that results when energy is bound by muscular contraction and does not flow through the body”(Reich:1936) . He saw that there existed character armouring which he defined as “the sum total of typical character attitudes, which an individual develops as a blocking against their emotional excitations, resulting in rigidity in the body, and lack of emotional contact ”. He defined muscular armouring as “the sum total of muscular(chronic muscular spasms) which an individual develops as a block against the breakthrough of emotions and organ sensations, particularly anxiety, rage and sexual excitation” (Reich:1936).

The neuroscience has gotten pretty deep into the mechanism of what actually causes armouring in the body. To sum it up, it’s the exact same explanation the Buddha gives in ‘The Complete Enlightenment Sutra’. The idea that people hold delusional or at the least non-accurate maps of reality in their conceptual mind. And when those inaccurate maps of reality clash with the visceral, experiential reality in their sensory apparatus and their gut instincts, the resultant cognitive dissonance between perceived image and experienced reality (the battle in their psyche between what is true vs what they wish was true) creates all the negative emotions that lead to tension and rigidity in the fascial system and musculature of the body.

The concept of ‘waking up’ is just the idea that people have a sudden flash of insight that causes them to ‘see reality as it really is’ (“I the great Tathagata” as the Buddha refers to himself. Tathagata is Sanskrit for “he who sees reality as it really is”). Rather than deny reality in favour of daydreams and fantasies of how things work, they update their inner conceptual view of the world so that it more accurately aligns with what their gut and visceral senses are telling them.

‘Tossing seeds‘ is the perfect metaphor. I used to see this all the time when doing hypnotherapy sessions. In hypnotherapy circles its well known that the majority of the changework is actually done in the ‘pre-talk’, this is the conversation that takes place before any ‘official’ hypnosis is ever done. It’s where you just explain to people an accurate ‘hard science’ based map of what causes their condition and offer them a more accurate map or a different perspective on how they can view the problem in order to resolve it moving forward. The actual hypnotherapy part of the session is more like finding a fertile place in the mind where the seeds of the pre-talk can take root and eventually sprout, a place beyond the usual ego defenses that normally cause people to instantly toss the seeds you offer them into the garbage can.

What I noticed on a consistent basis is around a 6 month latency period between the planting of the seeds and when those seeds would eventually sprout. Nearly every instance, 6 months after the initial session, I’d hear back from the client who’d tell me “Oh my God, I’ve just had the most amazing insight” at which point they’d just repeat almost verbatim, word for word in some instances, exactly what I’d explained to them in the pre-talk of the session 6 months earlier, but explain it in a way — and with all the enthusiasm of a Galileo like moment— thoroughly believing it to be a completely fresh and original idea that no one on earth has ever had until they’re the first ones to ever figure it out.

I’ve also witnessed this process occurring in myself. I’d be in the bath or shower, just daydreaming when all of a sudden ‘whoosh’ big flash of insight pops into consciousness out of nowhere. I’d be buzzing in that ‘Eureka’ experience, where you’re all super pumped, feeling totally alive, and eager to tell everyone what a genius idea you’ve just had. Only to realise a couple months later, when flicking through some books I’ve read, that the genius idea I thought I’d had, was actually written down word for word by someone else.

“There’s nothing new under the sun” as the saying goes. All we can do is scatter the seeds, but we have no control over when those seeds will sprout or grow, or even if they’ll even take root to begin with. Only the cycles of the seasons and the internal weather of a persons subjective experience determines how fruitful those seeds will become.