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Thread: Extraterrestrial altruism

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    United States Avalon Member krr233's Avatar
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    Default Extraterrestrial altruism

    Is complex social life a prerequisite for the evolution of intelligence? The selective pressure of complex societies may have favored cognitive skills that were evolutionary precursors to some components of sentience. However, social structure itself is not necessarily associated with intelligence, example: bees, ants and etc.

    Is altruism an inevitable attribute of intelligence ?
    Is extraterrestrial intelligence necessarily altruistic?
    Could complex society and intelligence evolve without altruism?

    What do you think??

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    UK Avalon Founder Bill Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Extraterrestrial altruism

    Quote Posted by krr233 (here)
    Is complex social life a prerequisite for the evolution of intelligence? The selective pressure of complex societies may have favored cognitive skills that were evolutionary precursors to some components of sentience. However, social structure itself is not necessarily associated with intelligence, example: bees, ants and etc.

    Is altruism an inevitable attribute of intelligence ?
    Is extraterrestrial intelligence necessarily altruistic?
    Could complex society and intelligence evolve without altruism?

    What do you think??
    Great questions. (And welcome to the forum! )

    Here are a few comments, maybe to help get the interesting discussion rolling.
    1. There are quite a few documented cases of animals displaying what certainly looks like altruism. Dogs and cats, but also apes, dolphins, whales and elephants.
    2. But having said that, intelligence very largely seems to be a needed condition for altruism.
    3. HOWEVER — the reverse doesn't apply. A person can be highly intelligent, and at the same time maladjusted, selfish, cruel, sociopathic and/or or psychopathic.
    4. So I'd presume that might apply to ETs, too. You could have a race of ETs with average IQs of 350 — but who might be utterly incapable of altruism towards any other species.
    5. Just as intelligent humans don't always display a great amount of "altruism" towards cows, sheep or pigs. And, often towards our own kind. Think about the slave trade, the actions of the Conquistadores or the British in North America a few centuries ago..... etc etc etc.
    6. Many individual humans certainly can and do display remarkable altruism. But institutions, governments and corporations usually don't. I'd argue fairly strongly that as a human race, we're not altruistic at all. In fact, maybe the opposite: the human race as a collective really acts very psychopathically. The evidence is all around.
    7. And maybe the ETs, or some ETs, can see that very clearly. That may be why they don't land... and that's not necessarily a joke.
    Last edited by Bill Ryan; 30th August 2020 at 18:07.

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    Default Re: Extraterrestrial altruism

    Quote Posted by krr233 (here)
    Is complex social life a prerequisite for the evolution of intelligence? The selective pressure of complex societies may have favored cognitive skills that were evolutionary precursors to some components of sentience. However, social structure itself is not necessarily associated with intelligence, example: bees, ants and etc.

    Is altruism an inevitable attribute of intelligence ?
    Is extraterrestrial intelligence necessarily altruistic?
    Could complex society and intelligence evolve without altruism?

    What do you think??
    We may need to define more specifically how we interpret intelligence. There are many extraterrestrials that are considered intelligent but not in an emotional or feeling sense, more intellectual in orientation and those types wouldn't be considered altruistic.

    It seems that altruism is intelligent in nature but is a product of more than one component, intelligence being just one of the desired attributes to have it functional and operative within a species.

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    Default Re: Extraterrestrial altruism

    Quote Posted by krr233 (here)
    Is altruism an inevitable attribute of intelligence ?
    I'd say yes. See this post and follow the link.


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    Default Re: Extraterrestrial altruism

    Intelligence is of the mind and wisdom lies in the heart-space, both operate in different domains. A society based only on so called intelligence might be technologically savvy, yet still destructive. A society based on compassion would be a harmonious and a thriving one for all. This should be obvious to any living being in the universe. Unfortunately it does not seem to be, especially here on Earth.
    "When you've seen beyond yourself, then you may find, peace of mind is waiting there." ~ George Harrison

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    Default Re: Extraterrestrial altruism

    Actually, I'll say a little more.

    I very profoundly doubt that intelligence creates altruism. If it did, then AI computers would all grow to be saintly. That may be unlikely to happen!

    Rather, an altruistic spiritual being would choose to incarnate in an intelligent body. The brain on its own is just a sophisticated biocomputer.

    The problem is that psychopathic spiritual beings (and they do exist) also choose to incarnate in intelligent bodies.

    And looping back to the ET question, there's no real reason to doubt that exactly the same wouldn't happen with ET races, too.

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    Default Re: Extraterrestrial altruism

    Quote Posted by krr233 (here)
    Is altruism an inevitable attribute of intelligence ?
    Could complex society and intelligence evolve without altruism?
    I would say it's an inevitable attribute of love. If love is the prime mover of all realities then altruism is an inevitable consequence of such a design. Those societies, by whatever nomenclature they go by, that obfuscate or deny that principle, will probably have to reckon with operating within a law of diminishing returns; even though that may not make itself known for aeons.

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    Default Re: Extraterrestrial altruism

    Quote Posted by Wind (here)
    Intelligence is of the mind and wisdom lies in the heart-space, both operate in different domains.
    Thank you Wind. This distinction is parallel to that between science and rationality as used in this post.

    What I am saying is that true intelligence is not wholly of the mind, i.e. devoid of wisdom. Otherwise, you are dealing in artificial intelligence, which leads to internal inconsistencies or contradictions, i.e. stupidity. The problem with separating intelligence and wisdom as ‘operating in different domains’ is that the ‘wise’ abandon intelligence to this lower level of artificial intelligence, thereby exposing themselves to spurious repudiation.

    The contradiction of artificial intelligence is when it inevitably leads to propositions of the type A = -A (see examples in my post). This is unintelligence in spades. But it can easily be weaponized against wisdom, most notably in its dialectical rejection of dualism. Dialectics always involves moving up a level. Wisdom is not opposable to intelligence, or a sideways movement, it is intelligence plus a higher understanding. When you have wisdom, you do not abandon intelligence, you build on it.


    Edit to add in response to Bill’s post just seen:
    Of course to say ‘altruism (is) an inevitable attribute of intelligence’ is not to say that intelligence CREATES altruism. My point is pragmatic: ALTRUISM WORKS, and intelligence simply takes cognizance of that fact in the planning of subsequent actions.
    Last edited by araucaria; 30th August 2020 at 19:24.


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    Default Re: Extraterrestrial altruism

    Wind said it all, a couple of posts above.

    It all depends on how conscious a being is. Spiritual evolution means that the illusory sense of independent individuality fades and the feeling that you are (part of) the Whole prevails steadily. That goes hand in hand with synesthesia, compassion and Love.

    To put it in a simple example, a society of beings who are still in an ego based frequency but have only developed their intellect and not their heart, may invent spaceships to travel around the galaxy. A society of evolved heart based beings with a lower intellect can probably just teleport and move around dimensions at will without the need for metal vehicles.

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    Default Re: Extraterrestrial altruism

    Totally agree.

    It's why I believe Artificial [computerized] Intelligence could be humanity's most fatal mistake, because I believe it precludes any possibility of altruism. And that could be very dangerous, depending on how much influence AI is given over our lives.

    For altruism to exist as a potential, you need to draw from seated wisdom, and to know wisdom you need sentience, and to have sentience - true and not simulated sentience - you need spirit.

    Unless AI can be imbued with the essence of spiritual intelligence, to become an ensouled I-AM presence, it can never be truly wise or, therefore, altruistic.
    "When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace."
    ~ Jimi Hendrix

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    Default Re: Extraterrestrial altruism

    Quote Posted by ZenBaller (here)
    Wind said it all, a couple of posts above.

    It all depends on how conscious a being is. Spiritual evolution means that the illusory sense of independent individuality fades and the feeling that you are (part of) the Whole prevails steadily. That goes hand in hand with synesthesia, compassion and Love.

    To put it in a simple example, a society of beings who are still in an ego based frequency but have only developed their intellect and not their heart, may invent spaceships to travel around the galaxy. A society of evolved heart based beings with a lower intellect can probably just teleport and move around dimensions at will without the need for metal vehicles.
    Thank you. You have explained in a nutshell how good people become ensnared by intelligent negative entities. Intelligence per se is not negative. By the same token totally heart-based action per se is not positive. The only way forward is HEART-BASED INTELLIGENCE. That is precisely what dialectics involves. I don’t want to ‘move around dimensions at will without the need for metal vehicles’ if it means succumbing to these negative entities.


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    Default Re: Extraterrestrial altruism

    Quote Posted by araucaria (here)
    Thank you. You have explained in a nutshell how good people become ensnared by intelligent negative entities. Intelligence per se is not negative. By the same token totally heart-based action per se is not positive. The only way forward is HEART-BASED INTELLIGENCE. That is precisely what dialectics involves. I don’t want to ‘move around dimensions at will without the need for metal vehicles’ if it means succumbing to these negative entities.
    Yes, I think this planet has already been through that according to spiritual traditions. Probably in the Lemuria era and maybe Atlantis later. And that is totally ok. It was no mistake. It was part of the greater plan. We needed to fall from grace even further in order to realize our godhood. Now it's time for the full heart based intelligence to come forth, as you said.

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    Default Re: Extraterrestrial altruism

    Should we expect altruism to evolve throughout the cosmos, or is this only wishful thinking? Would this make biological sense?

    In this universe there may exist many different kinds of creatures with widely varying levels of sentience and cognitive awareness. Some societies may possess more information than others; some beings may process information faster or more efficiently than others. Thus there is a natural ordering or continuum of all living things. Those entities which are more negentropic are better serving their mission of life in the universe; hence they are inherently "more ethical." Those beings which engender the same negentropy as others are "equally ethical."

    Will extraterrestrials have altruism?

    Our operational definition of “intelligence” implies the presence of altruism. The development of advanced technology must entail complex, flexible cooperation over long periods of time and this is difficult to imagine without altruism. But which flavour of altruism? It could be that the extraterrestrials developed their technology in the context of cooperating kinship groups, but nepotistic altruism seems more limited than reciprocal altruism, which widens the pool of cooperators. It is reasonable to assume that intelligent extraterrestrials will have at least one kind but most likely both kinds of altruism. If there is reciprocal altruism then mechanisms to generate it would develop, and these mechanisms seem likely to include analogues to our sense of justice and our ideas of morality. After all, if intelligence implies technology and technology implies cooperation, and if cooperation in turn strongly suggests a reciprocal altruism that is mediated by mechanisms similar to our sense of justice and fairness, then we may find considerable similarity between ourselves and intelligent extraterrestrials.

    Cooperative Civilisations may lead to altruistic tendencies

    A civilization which has managed to survive far longer than us doesn’t make sense in an uncooperative development. The pressure of long-term survival of limiting population requires an evolutionary trend that increases our intelligence, this continues to evolve into a cooperative civilisation to take on planet scale problems.

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    Default Re: Extraterrestrial altruism

    Quote Posted by Bill Ryan (here)
    Just as intelligent humans don't always display a great amount of "altruism" towards cows, sheep or pigs. And, often towards our own kind. Think about the slave trade, the actions of the Conquistadores or the British in North America a few centuries ago..... etc etc etc.

    Many individual humans certainly can and do display remarkable altruism. But institutions, governments and corporations usually don't. I'd argue fairly strongly that as a human race, we're not altruistic at all. In fact, maybe the opposite: the human race as a collective really acts very psychopathically. The evidence is all around.
    I am pretty sure that we project our own "intentions" onto "others" including whatever ETs may be?

    I have a CONVINCED position that as long as we eat others, we are stating our openness to being eaten. It would be possible for us to be nutritionally nourished by the fruit of others... trees, bushes, vines, grasses. ALSO milk from animals, eggs. None of these avenues would necessarily cause any pain. Killing others is a necessary act only for those who think it is and the corollary MUST BE that we are also food.

    This is more and more seeming to be purgatory to me. IF any of this pain and suffering can awaken our altrusim, that is a great stride. To me that is simply living the Golden Rule.

    Intelligence is IMO the ability to observe patterns and to synthesize new relational connections for new purposes. Memorizing is not necessarily intelligent. I see my animals observing patterns and including them in organizing their responses. Chickens are amazing at absorbing information about patterns. My pets are cooperative and avoid hurting one another.

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    Default Re: Extraterrestrial altruism

    The origin of altruism is very interesting to debate, whether it is a quality acquired through birth or more a concept related to education or goodwill or triggered by a number of environmental factors.
    Altruistic behavior is related to many manifestations, in the form of the instinctive genius to have the impulse to help, volunteering, spontaneous accidental experiments, innocence in parallel games, and more social clues and socializing effects, or reciprocity determined by interpersonal relationships and more. .
    Moreover, personally, I think it is still an attribute cultivated on several levels and perspectives added fundamentally to intelligence that can only be a feature.
    Such an attribute, even if it reaches its identity in confluences in its charm and sublime, weighs the clothing of the space occupied by any entity, so I could say that equivalence goes to different valences in which even intelligence can happen altruism in the way of intelligence.

    If fluid intelligence has an accumulation of innate abilities, acquisition, assimilation of knowledge respecting the natural order in potential, updated methods and arguments, then altruism can be a perfect purpose and means, even if this only happens very rarely, maybe ..
    Excessive self-esteem, in my opinion, has come to be considered an end in itself, the reason could be a petty and vain human feeling, or the need for man to attribute to himself a defining personality in an already finite allure. , seems something artificial generated even by humans, quite artificial; (A.I?) For me no more maybe than a coffee grinder.

    Of course, there is the moral component and the experience of the need to belong, but this must be embodied in well-deserved deeds and actions that propagate humanity in a gentler and better energy.
    I see altruism even in accepting Nature towards us, if Nature were "extraterrestrial" then maybe the smile of the people she interacts with, is worth the effort. In this case, I do not see why people could not be altruistic. But they are not all promising results of a society lost in moral confusion.

    Altruism may occur where intellectual superiority should not be confused with absolute superiority, in fact without arguments, we can easily appreciate the choice of belonging to the good side, we can appreciate the reinterpretation of values ​​in this area even with a little education or culture or intuition(needed), we can say that altruism is a gift of immeasurable importance, which, used constructively, can benefit from it, all mankind.

    Thus, intelligence has (or should have) a utilitarian character in various good forms of altruism; but it needs to be constantly materialized in order to really have value.
    Given this pragmatic nature, intelligence can be considered a tool, which can be used for positive or negative purposes, depending on the degree of morality, or spirituality or goodwill of the owner.
    It is essential that higher data be used for the benefit of society, and, why not, for all of humanity in order to be able to talk about high intelligence.

    I would add, and it is good to keep in mind that dreamers are the ones responsible for the spiritual dimensional progress we will someday return to, perhaps. In general, the discoveries and innovations that underlie these advances, require a long period of thinking and detachment from immediate reality, to reach a stage conducive to inspiration that can also be a form of altruism.

    What I wrote above only goes in line with the question much further, together I think we will get more information, I'm just talking about the possibility of big dreams, which have saved the world so many times ...where intelligence, goodwill and altruism were one, naming more in the future maybe.

    I think that good factors in summarizing the term "extraterrestrial" clearly express their statement to humanity in the fluency of the message (from own experience) the message goes so far that we humans will have to understand the understanding of energetic behavior in multifactorial patterns of theories and types of sequences in primary abilities that we do not yet know (maybe never), an excellence even in the conclusion of altruism.

    Emotional intelligence means stability, trust and cooperation with others, conscientiousness, perseverance, unconditional love, seriousness, prudence, self-control in favor of others, high self-control, observance of existing rules, calmness, balance and more.
    If I were to write about forms of altruism, in a fairly normal world, someday, I would write directly into people's hearts (metaphorically and altruistically).
    I just hope I helped a little, I'm sorry for the prolonged writing.
    Every human is a question asked to the Spirit of the Universe,again and again,because every human is an endless row of humans and in all humans together dwelling the Great Human Spirit.

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    Default Re: Extraterrestrial altruism

    From my own bigger -extraterrestrial- perspective Life in the Universe, especially any sort of advanced life was born as benevolent. And there is still higher intelligent Source of Life in Space something like “cradle of life” that keeps “spilling out” Life forms periodically.
    The beginnings are therefor all beautiful before any particular life form suffers an accident or falls to circumstances of maladjustment that becomes a “tweak of nature” or life stopper.

    I know I am sorry ( and likewise confused these days about the necessity to apologise for differences) I won’t agree with most people on what they believe is true - especially about extraterrestrials or myself -
    no matter how educated do they feel in those matters - I actually do know better. I simply, refuse to be killed ( or character killed) for statements.

    One real ethical and practical problem on “human plate” ( or in the Petri dish) is a creation “ab nihilo”, out of nothing or more precisely, life arising as a combination of chemical elements under correct evolutionary circumstances.

    Look it at it thus: this kind of primitive creationism does exist, it’s an option but Universe contains many more options of “coming to existence” than that.

    Creation “out of nothing” that is how I view the material aspect of scientific creationism aka evolution theory offers the most chance but also the most risks.
    It’s kind of 50/50 chance that the experiment grows well or it will be out of shape and a failure.
    Speaking of human kind or any other life form who grew on Earth as a natural manifestation of its creative genius, in imperfect environment where higher life is concerned there is 50% chance for failure.
    Can be an ethical failure or failure to empathise with others that matters the most at the end of the story.

    From my larger Universal perspective, the more advanced the species, more social we are on inside, with less separation between individual and collective or need for individual “selves” being important to our functioning and more protective of life in general because it’s beautiful , intelligent and rare.

    So I think that naturally covers my answer to the question and why we see this human struggle from other side: as beautiful entities who struggle too hard too long for a piece of rock and get hit by it every little while too.

    People with head/brain injuries can turn very unempathetic indeed. Just imagine all the millions of humans fighting g in boxer rings and in war fields for millions of years getting constantly damaged by their brute physical force - an expression of their “libido” as they say- damaging their brains to the point where they lose the ability to empathise with others or behave socially anymore.
    It’s been a part of human fate for very long now even without the necessity for extreme sports and fights, all these traumas, beatings and injuries, some starting in early childhood.

    We all were born beautiful and social -altruistic- at the beginning of the Universe and this life too.

    Yet most of our disability to function in accord with our intelligence and empathy was caused by some kind of mechanical or chemical damage.

    As I’ve said above the physical conditions on this planet aren’t “perfect” for advanced life so it’s good to be careful with it.

    Altruism on the other hand is the only practical way how to learn about other living Beings here.

    Without empathy people never get to know others or themselves even, really well. They may become more like “ZOO keepers” or “prison guards” of the society, right on outside but disconnected from within.




    🦢

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    Default Re: Extraterrestrial altruism

    As you said earlier, there are cases of "in species" and "inter species" altruistic behavior in the animal kingdom, also a highly intelligent person can be very evil. Obviously, intelligence is neither necessary nor a sufficient condition for altruism. Then one can say that altruism is a spontaneously arising phenomenon in mammalian species. What do all mammals share? The special circuit in the brain called the care-bond system. I think that the existence of such a system makes possible altruistic behavior. If such a circuit exists in terrestrial or extraterrestrial species, then we can expect something like occasional altruism at least for some time until civilization decides to undergo some major changes and turn itself in a bunch of AI Minds, and altruism will be eliminated as an evolutionary rudiment. I think it is a more likely scenario for highly advanced technological civilizations.

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    Aaland Avalon Member Agape's Avatar
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    Default Re: Extraterrestrial altruism

    Quote Posted by krr233 (here)
    As you said earlier, there are cases of "in species" and "inter species" altruistic behavior in the animal kingdom, also a highly intelligent person can be very evil. Obviously, intelligence is neither necessary nor a sufficient condition for altruism. Then one can say that altruism is a spontaneously arising phenomenon in mammalian species. What do all mammals share? The special circuit in the brain called the care-bond system. I think that the existence of such a system makes possible altruistic behavior. If such a circuit exists in terrestrial or extraterrestrial species, then we can expect something like occasional altruism at least for some time until civilization decides to undergo some major changes and turn itself in a bunch of AI Minds, and altruism will be eliminated as an evolutionary rudiment. I think it is a more likely scenario for highly advanced technological civilizations.

    Well from biological perspective that kind of observation is insufficient as long as you are limiting it to “mammals”, as altruism can be observed in birds and in insects likewise, ants can be seen helping each other out and caring about their injured friends frequently, for example,
    altruism is not unique and if you are considering submitting your sense of self to an AI,
    that AI would likely act with consideration to all its parts, parties and subsidies so to say keeping them organized in perfect order so in itself it would be highly altruistic.

    Even while that’s scary or unacceptable idea for people of today (think the Matrix movies) we could well hypothesize that you are already an expression of some futuristic AI initiated by today’s humans
    now claiming its existence and supremacy for the first time.

    ( merely realize the real impact of your idea )

    It’s an interesting idea - and according to Cyrus A Parsa there’s an AI of that order influencing the evolution of humanity for more than 100 years now, trying to evolve “us” through regimes and systems ..


    Could be of interest : https://theaiorganization.com/


    In my better opinion , many people still have the option to disconnect from the AI bot now while perhaps millions of people we don’t know of even have been sucked to the system offering them vast - but incomplete amount of information.

    Consider this to be a problem with the internet of things as we know of today- the fact that the amount of information it contains is bigger than any individual can currently contain does not surpass the other fact - some information is inaccurate and some is entirely missing.

    Collecting information from and about living beings is more difficult than mapping global weather.

    Again : for any advanced bio chips to be able to collect most of the live human information worldwide in order to contain their existence such an AI would have to be number times more altruistic than your GP


    And so forth ..

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    Default Re: Extraterrestrial altruism

    They say that Ron Amitron from the Creation Lightship ( did not know of him until recently ) who has since left this earth, would say that we were infested with an alien mind and we needed to command our spirit to move our thoughts into our heart center. It took me a while to cogitate that. So intelligence does not enter into altruism. I believe that as you, Bill. Intelligence is a machination of alien input? Emotional intelligence comes from the heart center. All my life I thought that to be true. Even as a child. But I rarely found anyone who could hold that in their life. Either we go very emotional or we go arrogantly intelligent dismissing the feeling. There are attorneys I would guess that battle that when they are faced with unusual circumstances in a court of law.

    I know we don't want to think about an alien mind but hey, we do have a reptilian brain and how far back was that dickered with? When they messed with our DNA strands? I also read that they messed with how we process: unconscious - conscious -subconscious - superconscious. The whole idea of EGO certainly is not altruistic. And that may need to be a whole different topic! LOL
    When you realize where you come from, you naturally become tolerant, disinterested, amused, kindhearted as a grandparent, dignified as a king. -- I Ching

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    Default Re: Extraterrestrial altruism

    I think the answer to that question may depend on the over-all understanding of what an advanced society is in the first place.

    Does 'extraterrestrial intelligence' necessarily have to be interested in other intelligence around other stars? And does such a society want to spend resources to go find and study other star species? Would finding and interacting with other intelligence be a priority at all?

    Maybe individuals, or select groups, might expend their energy in that direction but there may be much more pressing needs and concerns of an entire advanced society than to go where another species already has an indigenous claim.

    What would be the point of coming to the aid of a backward, savage, barely sentient race hell bent on destroying themselves?

    I think, like on planet Earth, altruism is a personal decision, not a collective one...

    To assume any entire society of beings to be in consensus about altruism is akin to considering that species godlike, beyond cares of any kind, capable of any technological feat, always in perfect health, immortal, having worked out all the wonders of the universe, mapped every inch of reality, and many equally monumental accomplishments. If not, their society probably as a whole is not anywhere near altruistic. They may have higher moral standards, they may try to be peaceful and helpful, but if push comes to shove - well like us...their kind comes first. It's just natural.

    No species can afford to be altruistic. Individuals might.
    Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water...Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend. Bruce Lee

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